IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2012-04-19

GeneralAntillesWhy is javispedro never there when you need him.00:02
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DocScrutinizerbecause he kept a last tad of sanity and RL00:07
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, oh. That.00:24
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DocScrutinizeror rather: "because he wants to keep..."00:37
DocScrutinizerI heard this channel not always conceived helpful in that regard by him00:38
GeneralAntillesLotsa trolls.00:41
GeneralAntillesI shouldn't complain since I'm never here anyway.00:41
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alteregoGeneralAntilles: he does come on regularly. Just earlier :)01:10
alteregoDamn finnish N900 keyboard mapped to english, forgotten where the comma was.01:10
GeneralAntillesStupid timezones.01:24
GeneralAntillesAlso: Hi, alterego. :) Longtimenosee01:24
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itsnotabigtruck3.(Acronym) H.O.S.E.D. -> Hardware Or Software Error Detected03:34
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trip0what state does the n9 have to be in for flasher to work?03:58
itsnotabigtrucktrip0: at the very beginning of the boot process, or in sync and connect mode03:59
itsnotabigtruckyour best bet is:03:59
itsnotabigtruckdisconnect the N9 from USB03:59
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itsnotabigtruckpower it off and wait for it to be completely off04:00
itsnotabigtruckrun flasher -i04:00
itsnotabigtruckattach the n904:00
itsnotabigtruckit'll immediately boot up and then go into flasher mode04:00
itsnotabigtruckalternatively, go into sync and connect mode, then run flasher -i04:00
itsnotabigtruckand it'll reboot it into flasher mode04:00
itsnotabigtruckthere's probably a possibility that could corrupt some data though, i don't think it's doing a clean shutdown04:00
DocScrutinizertrip0: the trick always is to get the PC side right04:05
DocScrutinizeron device side it's basically same procedure for all NIT / maemo devices04:05
DocScrutinizerplug USB of waiting flasher to powered down device, then boot04:06
trip0flashing now04:06
DocScrutinizersince N900 booting will happen automatically on applying VBUS04:06
trip0i seemed to recall the n900 being "tricky" at times04:07
DocScrutinizernot really04:07
DocScrutinizeralways the PC side that's tricky04:07
DocScrutinizerof course you should have a 100% charged battery for flashing04:07
DocScrutinizeralso applies to all devices, basically04:07
* trip0 firstboots04:08
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Corsacgrembl, syncevolution doesn't work with my n9 back from warranty08:37
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Corsacha, maybe because bt mac address and imei changed :)08:55
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Piruany ideas if I can send raw cmds etc to the nfc chip in n9? something like libnfc12:58
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jreznikjust a reminder - Openmobility Conference this Saturday! with several N9/Qt Quick talks :)15:30
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Sivajreznik: any live streams?17:06
jreznikSiva: not sure it will be possible, the sillicon hills guys usually stream (but only from theirs home place)... but you can expect it to be uploaded after the event17:07
Sivajreznik: cool!17:08
jreznikthe schedule looks awesome this year, I'm happy we were able to collect a good amount of interesting talks and workshops17:09
auenfestimate usage time left: 10h 26m17:10
Sivajreznik: indeed..17:11
auenfestimated idle usage time: 9h 8m17:11
auenfso i need to use it to make it last longer :P17:11
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itsnotabigtruckanyone know when/how the FUSE kernel module is loaded on harmattan?18:16
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itsnotabigtruckoh, great18:19
itsnotabigtruck@everyone update your openssl pronto18:19
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mgedmineh? what happened to openssl?18:34
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itsnotabigtruckoh, i just realized that FUSE is compiled in18:39
itsnotabigtruckno wonder it doesn't load the module anywhere18:39
itsnotabigtruckmgedmin: asn.1 parser vulnerability that allows remote execution18:40
itsnotabigtruckseems that debian doesn't have a package for the update yet :(18:40
mgedminoh, fun18:40
mgedminit seems like every time I hear "ASN" being mentioned, it's in the context of a security vulnerability18:41
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itsnotabigtruckmgedmin: it's kind of neat in some ways19:05
itsnotabigtruckbut yeah, asn.1 parsing libraries tend to be kind of awful and there's been a lot of security bugs19:06
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djszapiHey! Anybody familiar with upstart in here ?19:12
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itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: what's the question...19:13
djszapihow to run a binary from an upstart job which expects a fully working modem since the binary would configure that over /dev/ttyUSB019:14
djszapithis did not help to me:
djszapistart on tty-device-added DEVPATH=*ttyUSB019:15
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djszapimy binary tries to write modem specific at-like commands out during the bootup without getting any responses which means that the modem is not available yet for processing stuff19:15
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djszapiso stop myjob; start myjob fixes the issue, but that is not my goal. I would like to run the binary nicely during the bootup, already.19:17
itsnotabigtruckdoes the device node exist when your program tries to open it?19:17
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djszapiyes, the serial port opening is quite good19:18
djszapieven after the bootup, the serial port is locked (by using the binary intentionally)19:18
djszapiand logging from my application, the serial port opening went super fine.19:18
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djszapiI do not understand why there is no option for running a binary (through an upstart job) once the system is fully set up.19:31
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paDocScrutinizer, wanna laugh? now my phone is fine.. maybe coz it fell on the table this morning19:48
SpeedEvilpa :)19:48
pawell.. better like this..19:49
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: ideas ?19:54
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: my best guess is that it's running your program when the device node is ready, not when the serial port is ready, then19:57
itsnotabigtruckbut i really don't know that much about this stuff19:58
djszapiupstart is a hilarious hack :D19:58
itsnotabigtruckso you're saying it lets you open the serial port during early boot but not communicate over it?19:58
itsnotabigtruckthat's really weird19:58
djszapiat least the modem does not respond19:59
itsnotabigtrucki'd expect that if the kernel wasn't ready to do serial i/o it wouldn't let you open serial i/o devices19:59
djszapiserial port is successfully opened.19:59
rzrdjszapi, hi  are u using openal lib ?20:01
djszapirzr: why are you asking ?20:02
rzri planed to upgrade it20:02
djszapiI use it in QtAudio3D20:03
djszapiif you mean openal-soft20:03
djszapibecause I do not use openal (Creative Labs closed source stuff)20:04
djszapiyep, Chris updated to 1.1420:05
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itsnotabigtrucki'm working on a harmattanized version of fuse-utils20:12
itsnotabigtruckafter incepting it, it should be possible to mount fuse filesystems with no special permissions (via fusermount)20:12
rzrbut why repack it ? cant you just incept the regular one ?20:15
itsnotabigtruckrzr: nope, won't do any good20:18
itsnotabigtruckfusermount is setuid root so it can mount stuff; with aegis, that doesn't do anything and it can't mount20:19
itsnotabigtruckunless you run it from opensh or the like, which defeats the point20:19
trip0so is the de-facto way of making harmattan packages?20:19
djszapinot for soon.20:19
itsnotabigtrucktrip0: fact not that many people use it other than rzr (for his public repo), me, and a few other devs20:20
itsnotabigtruckand supposedly c-obs is to be up for at least another year20:20
djszapitrip0: it has been the community repository for many months, and will be backed.20:20
djszapi(already backed actually)20:20
itsnotabigtruckalso the mer people want to get their own OBS which might end up having the harmattan stuff shifted in20:20
itsnotabigtruckif intel/nokia cut the cord on c-obs20:20
trip0are more people going through the store route to get their app in harmattan?20:24
itsnotabigtrucktrip0: by far20:24
itsnotabigtruckrelatively few people even know about OBS or Apps for Meego20:24
itsnotabigtruckand that's been kind of a vicious cycle20:24
itsnotabigtruckno apps -> no reason to use it -> no users -> no word of mouth -> no apps20:24
teleshoes{you said merpeople}20:25
itsnotabigtruckteleshoes: yeah? :p20:25
teleshoeslike, with fins and gills20:25
itsnotabigtrucktrip0: but i'd still recommend that people put their stuff in obs and afm20:26
itsnotabigtruckthere's a bit of a learning curve but it's not that bad20:26
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* djszapi dislikes that he cannot reply to users giving only four stars and complaining about a feature which is already implemented...20:27
djszapiin Ovi, that is*20:27
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: "only" 4 stars?20:28
itsnotabigtruck4 stars is a perfectly good review20:28
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: not when you have otherwise five stars average20:29
itsnotabigtruckthis isn't like school where A = good, less than A = less than good, or something20:29
djszapiI mean that is the thing others see.20:29
itsnotabigtruck5 stars ought to be for abnormally awesome apps20:29
djszapitrust me, it matters.20:29
djszapilike mine (TM) :)20:29
rzrwell the question is how wide is the user community ?20:29
djszapijust joking of course20:29
djszapiit is good they fixed the search engine at lesat.20:30
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rzrif therent enough users then we should ease up the acceptance process ?20:30
itsnotabigtruckso this is weird, i just got fusermount and sshfs loaded up20:30
djszapiif you type the substring of the application, like "hangman"20:30
djszapiyou will get khangman20:30
itsnotabigtrucki run sshfs, it mounts, and the mountpoint disappears entirely20:30
rzrrename your app to hangelop :)20:30
itsnotabigtruckand isn't accessible even with dac override20:30
rzrbtw i think redak miss only one vote @
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trip0i'm having trouble getting my package to build on obs :|20:32
itsnotabigtrucki was reluctant to approve it before since it's not very polished and it's easy to obliterate your documents accidentally20:32
itsnotabigtruckcurrently apps for meego seems to be in no small part apps that aren't good enough for ovi store :p20:33
rzrthis is fixed in current version20:34
djszapi -> publishers djszapi ??20:34
rzrthis is a  bug in obs20:34
rzri pushed from shared repo the 1st time20:34
itsnotabigtruckcurrent version = 0.4?20:34
rzrand u were in that team20:34
rzrnot released20:34
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rzronly in ovi20:34
djszapisorry, could someone remove from there ?20:35
rzrbut it miss the china step20:35
djszapiwhoever has put me in there20:35
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rzrdjszapi, u can leave the rzr:h team20:35
rzrit may sync ?20:35
djszapisorry ?20:35
djszapiI would like to use c-obs, but not appsformeego20:35
rzryou're in the home:rzr:harmattan team right ?20:36
djszapiI would not like my name appearing in there.20:36
djszapic-obs != afm20:36
djszapifix afm, if that is broken20:36
rzrthen i guess you need to bug the a4m pple20:36
rzrcan X-Fade help ?20:36
djszapiplease do not publish my name in the future without asking :-) Thanks.20:37
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rzri didnt20:37
rzrthat's a bug in a4m process .....20:37
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trip0the music app doesn't seem to pick up all my music20:49
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trip0it doesn't auto-bookmark either20:51
trip0hrm :|20:51
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abinaderis libmaliit1-dev available in some public repo inside sbox?20:53
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itsnotabigtruck[pid  2356] mount("developer@", ".", "fuse", MS_NOSUID|MS_NODEV, "max_read=65536,fd=5,rootmode=400"...) = -1 EPERM (Operation not permitted)20:56
itsnotabigtruck[pid  2356] write(2, "fusermount: mount failed: Operat"..., 50fusermount: mount failed: Operation not permitted20:56
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itsnotabigtruckwhoops, figured out the problem21:09
itsnotabigtruck<request type="...">21:09
itsnotabigtruckinstead of policy="..."21:09
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itsnotabigtruckrzr: still around?22:53
rzrnot that far22:57
rzri was busy os sorting 1TB of junk22:58
itsnotabigtruckrzr: what would you suggest w/r/t version numbering for fuse-utils22:58
rzrbyte per bytes22:58
itsnotabigtruckit's derived off of fuse 2.8.6maemo522:58
itsnotabigtruckjust sticking a maemo1 obviously doesn't make sense because it already has a maemo tag from nokia22:59
rzr2.8.6maemo5.0~itsnotabigtruck1 ?22:59
itsnotabigtruckalso, related to that, it seems like we need a common version tag for all packages like this22:59
itsnotabigtrucki don't really like just sticking the nick in there22:59
rzrso 2.8.6maemo5.0 ?22:59
rzrso 2.8.6maemo5.1 ?22:59
itsnotabigtruckin your repo, some are tagged with rzr, some are tagged with harmattan, some are maemo23:00
itsnotabigtruckcurrently i'm using maemo5.0, yeah23:00
itsnotabigtruckbut it would be nice to standardize on something23:00
rzri can understand you23:00
rzrbut i think it's best to follow debian policy23:00
rzrbut even the maemo pple dont do that23:01
rzri mean nokia23:01
itsnotabigtruckdebian policy is very unclear about this sort of version numbering23:01
itsnotabigtruckbecause upstream debian packages don't need it23:01
rzrit's clear to me23:01
rzrlook at what ubuntu is doing23:01
rzrthat's the right way for downstream projects23:01
itsnotabigtruckthe debian policy lays out the basic format of a version number and that's it23:02
rzrwe're not debian23:02
itsnotabigtrucki *think* the right approach is 2.8.6maemo5.0tag1 where tag = some label23:02
rzrwe're maemo23:02
itsnotabigtruckwell, no, nokia is maemo, we're not23:02
rzrthat's why i suggested to use 023:02
rzrand let's hope a community repo will show up23:03
rzrand then we'll have the ability to use higher numbers ...23:03
itsnotabigtruckbut it would make more sense to pick 1 tag (that isn't maemo) and apply it to everything23:03
rzrsomething before the m letter23:04
itsnotabigtruckdoes dpkg actually consider the letters23:04
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rzrlike X.Y.Z-Vnotmaemo123:04
itsnotabigtruckhow about something starting with h (for harmattan)23:04
teleshoesis AFTER maemo23:04
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rzrlike X.Y.Z-Vbeforemaemo123:04
teleshoesis good23:05
itsnotabigtruckhaus: harmattan applications for user systems23:05
rzrbut what about common packages built in freemantle ?23:05
rzrthey can be reused too ?23:05
rzrsee what i mean ?23:05
itsnotabigtruckwell, in many cases harmattan and fremantle require diverging packages because of aegis23:06
rzri am talking about the source ones23:06
rzrnot all of them23:06
itsnotabigtruckharmattan packages need to build depend on aegis-builder23:06
rzrmost of mine are not using aegis23:06
itsnotabigtruckand e.g. my fuse-utils package, i took out the use of the setuid bit and it definitely won't work on fremantle23:06
rzryes but the sources are the same , like all those debian ones i just raw imported23:06
itsnotabigtruckit's also corresponding to the pr1.2+ fuse package23:06
rzri dont plan to rename all imported debian packages23:07
itsnotabigtruckright, if there's no source package changes, the debian version stays23:07
rzrso harmattan suffix could fit23:07
itsnotabigtruckbut that's kind of long23:08
rzrbut please use the -0harmattan23:08
rzrand please build .orig tarball23:08
itsnotabigtruckwhat about:23:08
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itsnotabigtruckunmodified debian package: 1.2.3-423:08
itsnotabigtruckmodified debian package: 1.2.3-4haus123:09
rzrhaus ?23:09
rzrthe rule is actuall :23:09
itsnotabigtruckmodified maemo package: 1.2.3-4maemo1.0haus123:09
rzrthis looks good to me23:09
rzrbut i would keep the harmattan23:10
rzrin case if the debian ppl may want to merge it back23:10
rzrthey know who we are23:10
rzrCorsac, around ?23:10
rzr<itsnotabigtruck> modified debian package: 1.2.3-4haus123:11
rzri think this is the properway23:11
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itsnotabigtruckrzr: ubuntu does it like 1.2.3-4ubuntu123:12
rzrunmodified  maemo package: 1.2.3-4maemo123:12
itsnotabigtrucki don't think they ever have the double tag case because debian packages don't have tags23:12
rzrbut ubuntu is a derived project of debian23:12
rzrwe're not even in a project23:12
itsnotabigtruck example23:12
rzrdebian uses23:12
rzr1.2.3-4.X for non maintainers packages23:13
rzrthat's what we are doing23:13
itsnotabigtruckepoch 4, version 4.8.2a, upstream package version 0, tag ubuntu, ubuntu package version 423:13
rzrwe're out of the process23:13
rzrPackage: libkwinactiveglesutils1 (4:4.8.2a-0ubuntu4)23:14
rzr-0 = this package is not in debian23:14
rzrubuntu4 : but in ubuntu and this is the 4th version23:14
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rzrand it has been done inside the ubuntu project23:14
itsnotabigtruckoh yeah23:15
rzrif it was outside the project23:15
itsnotabigtruckthough nokia clearly isn't following that convention23:15
rzrand if it was accepted it would have been23:15
itsnotabigtruckoriginally harmattan packages seem to have no tag23:16
rzrnokia should fire elop and hire all of us ?)23:16
wookrzr, i hope :D23:16
* wook is going back to watch the movie :D23:17
rzrnokia is not really following debian policy , hence the marketing name : m623:17
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itsnotabigtruckso option A is to do it the ubuntu way, option B is to do it the debian nmu way23:17
itsnotabigtruckwhich would yield the 2.8.6maemo5.0 version23:17
itsnotabigtruckactually no, NMU versions start at 123:17
itsnotabigtruckmaking it 2.8.6maemo5.123:17
rzrm6 means we can not keep the name maemo5 we dont want to rely on meego , so we're m ... and let reuse the version number for the 6th wind23:18
itsnotabigtruck lol23:18
rzrdebian accepts NMU , not mameo23:18
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rzrso that's why i thought zero could avoid collision23:18
rzrthis blog didnt list my naming scheme :-)23:19
rzri use this for snapshots23:20
rzr0.0 is low enough to avoid collision again23:20
rzritsnotabigtruck, i am unsure those naming are this important for now23:21
rzrbut the question is what naming should ensure ?23:21
rzrno collision23:21
rzrno overtake23:21
rzrand respect debian policy23:22
itsnotabigtruckwell, it should also be understandable and nice and consistent23:22
rzrand future proof23:22
itsnotabigtrucklike i said we're kinda out of the scope of debian policy because this isn't something you do under debian policy23:22
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rzri dont want to reinvent the weal23:22
rzrubuntu is doing a smart way , not nokia23:23
rzrthe problem is that we have several upstream23:23
rzrand our 1st one is doing the worst one23:24
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itsnotabigtruckso the 1.2.3-4maemo1.0tag1 seems like the way to go23:27
itsnotabigtruckwhich is >  1.2.3-4maemo1 but <  1.2.3-4maemo1.123:27
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rzrthat was my idea right23:30
* rzr vote for tag=harmattan23:31
rzrof ~$USER23:31
itsnotabigtruckon second thought the > 1.2.3-4.0haus1 < is a good idea too23:31
rzrwhy haus ?23:31
itsnotabigtrucknot necessarily haus, i copypasted that from above23:31
itsnotabigtruckbut the haus was Harmattan Applications for User Systems23:31
rzrwhat about libs ?23:32
teleshoeswhatever a user system is23:32
itsnotabigtruckbecause it sounds cooler than "harm"23:32
rzrwhat about non user packages too ?23:32
teleshoesid rather haus stand for nothing23:32
teleshoesjust haus23:32
rzris "harmattan"  too long ?23:33
teleshoesits fairly long23:33
itsnotabigtruckwell, i don't think there's a limit, it just makes the versions look bulky23:33
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mankelihaus is the introduction of completely new term, and "harm" sounds ugly23:33
teleshoesharm is the best ive hard23:33
teleshoeshaus is cool23:33
itsnotabigtruckharm sounds like it'll kill you :p23:33
itsnotabigtruckhow about hbloc (harmattan bloc)23:33
teleshoestwo syllables23:34
* rzr still likes to keep distro name23:34
teleshoestheres a point in that23:34
teleshoesunfortunately, nokia has maemo covered23:34
rzrthere is already enough fragmantation and confusion23:34
teleshoesi agree, harmattan would be best23:34
rzrso harmattan or nattamrah :-)23:34
rzrnattamrah would be a fucking great marketting name23:35
mankelinattamrah sounds like a place in bible23:35
rzror kurran to me23:35
teleshoeseasily conflated23:36
mankelisome hebrew city name anyway23:36
teleshoesmaemian, lol23:36
itsnotabigtruck looks like it's already taken :(23:37
mankelimeemo, a pun of maemo,meego and meme23:37
itsnotabigtruckooh, that actually sounds kinda cool23:37
itsnotabigtruckdoes it need to be less than maemo23:37
teleshoesharmattan is the only thing that has any real precedent23:38
teleshoesdeblet has got to be the nastiest sounding thing in the universe23:38
rzrbtw what do you think about resurecting the debmer project ?23:39
itsnotabigtruckhaus still seems better than a lot of the others23:40
itsnotabigtrucklol teleshoes23:40
mankelihaus is one pronounces house in finnish, and it reminds me of dr.house23:40
mankeliis how one*23:40
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rzrso what are the candidates ? please sort them23:41
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mankelihaus, harm, harmattan, nattamrah, maemian, meemo, deblet23:41
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mankelihmm, i didn't know that those aegis capabilities are actually been in linux since 2.2 kernels23:50
itsnotabigtruckmankeli: yeah, it's not aegis specific and it's not new23:50
itsnotabigtruckthe CAP ones that is23:50
itsnotabigtruckbut it's not ver well known either23:51
mankelitherefore aegis is only a mechanism to give processes those caps, depending on the package23:52
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mankelii wonder if only the file hash-checking part of it can be disabled23:53
DrGrovDoes someone have a link to the manual of the N9 as a PDF file? Preferrably in Swedish, but English will do23:53
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mankeliitsnotabigtruck: did you by the way already make a new deb of fuse-utils? i read that you were playing with fusermount23:55
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rzrmankeli, now we have to sort them23:58
DrGrovAnyone got the N9 manual in English then? :)23:58
DrGrovI do not seem to find it on Nokia's webpage23:58
mankelilength: haus harm meemo, deblet, maemian, harmattan nattamrah23:58
mankelicrappiness: deblet maemian nattamrah meemo harm haus harmattan23:59

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