| bef0rd | :D | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| djszapi | bef0rd: I mean cannot you check with the package mangaer ? | 00:00 |
| djszapi | manager* | 00:00 |
| bef0rd | there is no package manager in OSC | 00:00 |
| bef0rd | OS x | 00:00 |
| djszapi | o_O | 00:01 |
| bef0rd | :D | 00:01 |
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| bef0rd | not officially, you can use external to get opensource stuff | 00:01 |
| bef0rd | like homebrew, macports, fink | 00:01 |
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| djszapi | so you browse the mac ports etc manually ? | 00:01 |
| djszapi | yes, exactly. | 00:01 |
| djszapi | wanted to mention homebrew, fink and friends. | 00:01 |
| djszapi | are any of these partition libraries available in those ? | 00:02 |
| bef0rd | ah ok, let me see | 00:02 |
| bef0rd | libparted and udisk is not available on homebrew | 00:07 |
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| bef0rd | DiskManagement framework is the native stuff I think | 00:10 |
| bef0rd | http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man8/diskmanagementd.8.html | 00:10 |
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| djszapi | bef0rd: thanks. | 00:28 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | what's up with newsy and panorama not being accessible from ovistoreclient :/ | 00:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a regular user is certainly not going to know the backdoor way to download a deb, and then how to install it from the terminal | 00:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://store.ovi.com/content/45975?clickSource=homepage&pos=27 < $2 for that? wallpaper/ringtone vendors are absolute scum | 00:42 |
| bef0rd | yea, and not everybody is allowed to sell backgrounds imagine if that was the case | 00:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so is nokia's ovi operation for both allowing that sort of business, and granting such vendors a monopoly (unlike apps, you have to do a special registration process, and be an actual corporation with substantial liability insurance) | 00:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah | 00:43 |
| franz` | good thing microsoft won't let that happen on the windows marketplace right? right?? | 00:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | franz`: well, i thought wp marketplace was for apps and apps only | 00:45 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | so, so far they aren't letting that happen then | 00:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | microsoft is distinctly trying to distinguish itself from some of the other vendors that cuddle too closely with carriers and incumbents and deliver inferior products for it | 00:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bef0rd franz` bindi frals rigo: if any of you are still around | 00:47 |
| bef0rd | hi | 00:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what do you think about the best approach for a trusted execution utility for inception | 00:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that is, sudo for aegis | 00:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (or su, or newrole, or whatever) | 00:48 |
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| franz` | sudo gaincap CAP:whatever /path/to/exec | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i was tossing an idea around in my head for some mechanism for defining which credentials a particular user is allowed to assert | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like, root password = any capability, developer password = dev capabilities, etc. | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it could be reconfigured | 00:49 |
| franz` | oh that'd be nice | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but that's a lot of complexity | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, forking sudo would add a lot of unwanted complexity, though the basic sudo concept could easily be emulated | 00:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that is, drop a token to allow multiple password-free invocations in a row | 00:50 |
| franz` | how did fremantle handle messing with sudo? (for 'sudo gainroot') | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for the sake of comparison, with selinux you have a) newrole - like su but for selinux roles | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | b) sudo has selinux support built in, which allows you to change roles along with regular sudo operation if you set that in your sudoers file | 00:51 |
| franz` | oh | 00:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so sudo foo would a) become root, b) change to sysadm_r | 00:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but selinux already has that roles concept built in, aegis doesn't | 00:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so there's no existing concept that allows for bundling together credentials into roles, or whatnot | 00:53 |
| franz` | can't you piggyback onto those aegis.manifest files? | 00:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | franz`: in what way? | 00:55 |
| franz` | aegisload /path/to/aegis.manifest, and it reads what caps a certain exec needs? | 00:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also regarding your original example, there's 33 linux capabilities | 00:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no one wants to list all of them on the command line :p | 00:56 |
| franz` | oh :P | 00:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, if the process had an aegis manifest that asserted the needed capabilities, this program wouldn't be needed | 00:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in general this is for running system utilities with elevated capabilities | 00:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially cap::sys_admin, cap::dac_override, tcb | 00:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that wouldn't normally run with them | 00:57 |
| franz` | how about files with predefined capability lists? | 00:59 |
| franz` | aegisetc chown etc | 01:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hmm | 01:00 |
| franz` | would look in... I don't know, /usr/share/aegismanifests/chown.manifest | 01:00 |
| franz` | add a couple for the most common tasks | 01:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | franz`: why not just assert everything though for root tasks | 01:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, one reason is the source check | 01:01 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | i'm wondering if there's a better way to deal with that than having people manually install aegisctl and run it directly every boot | 01:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's a shame very few things use inherit policies (which subset the inherited credentials instead of adding new ones) | 01:02 |
| franz` | a daemon that checks with your endno.de server for a list of execs and their needed privileges (haha no there'd be so much drama) | 01:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 01:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if aegis was based around inherit policies and not add/set policies it would be so much more secure | 01:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway...the role based approach is growing on me | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | still not sure about how to make it usable though | 01:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, it's highly unfortunate that the n9 doesn't have pam | 01:09 |
| franz` | isn't that a kernel module? | 01:09 |
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| franz` | oh maybe not nvm | 01:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | nah, it's a user-mode framework for managing user accounts | 01:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the n9 does it old school with crypt'd passwords in /etc/passwd, world readable | 01:10 |
| franz` | whoa, really? not even an /etc/shadow? | 01:12 |
| franz` | lol nokia | 01:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yup | 01:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that might be one thing to fix in a CSSU-type thing | 01:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | retrofit coreutils/etc., pam, and so on | 01:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | make it more like a real *nix system | 01:13 |
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| aquarius | I've been trying to compile a phonegap app for my n9 using qt creator. I've set up scratchbox and pointed QtCreator at it following the instructions on the nokia site, but my app says that it's not a harmattan build, because MEEGO_VERSION_MAJOR isn't defined. Does this suggest I'm doing something wrong? | 01:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aquarius: i think that's defined in some qt header file | 01:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | qplatformdefs.h | 01:17 |
| aquarius | itsnotabigtruck, yeah, that's what worries me, because it suggests that I'm not doing the compilation right. | 01:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aquarius: hmm, there's a page on the nokia site suggesting defining them explicitly in the pro file | 01:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i.e. as compiler flags | 01:18 |
| aquarius | hrm hrm. | 01:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Reference_documentation_Porting_applications_to_Harmattan.html | 01:18 |
| aquarius | I wish the PhoneGap for Qt people hung out in here :( | 01:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | how about this | 01:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inceptdo program args -> prompts for current user's password and asserts credentials enabled for current user | 01:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inceptdo @root program args -> prompts for root's password and asserts credentials enabled for root | 01:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | credential-user mapping controlled from a central config file | 01:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (should the config file be tcb-protected or not?) | 01:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | franz`^ | 01:21 |
| franz` | sounds nice | 01:23 |
| franz` | and yeah protect it, don't want random execs tampering with it | 01:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also inceptdo isn't a final name, need to settle on something | 01:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but most users will grant root all access, and then any process can mutate /etc/passwd and change the root password | 01:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | without tcb access | 01:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rendering protecting /etc/inceptdoers or whatnot moot | 01:24 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | also, the system has lots of vulnerabilities, an evil program could re-exploit the system, or simply replace inception's package | 01:25 |
| franz` | so you're saying it's pretty much not worth trying to protect it? | 01:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though i'm thinking about mitigations for that 2nd part | 01:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | more or less, though i'm not sure | 01:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i mean, i don't want to make the system any less secure, but it's pretty damn insecure to begin with | 01:26 |
| franz` | lol | 01:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also as it stands inception works ok on open mode, i wonder what the implications of trying to tcb-protect files on open mode would be | 01:28 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | dpkg doesn't bother trying to tcb-protect aegis files when in open mode | 01:28 |
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| * DocScrutinizer idly wonders why the hell not a *single* random exec tampered with any file owned by root and properly chmod'ed, on my PC | 01:49 | |
| DocScrutinizer | nononono, I don't expect anybody to answer. It was rhetorical and sarcastic | 01:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 01:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, the difference is that your normal linmux system doesn't have any levels of access beyond root | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | pff | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | it has user matrix, user supervisor, user dom0 | 01:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | and user God | 01:53 |
| * DocScrutinizer wonders what those "levels of access beyond root" might be on HARM | 01:57 | |
| SpeedEvil | root with all permissions from aegis | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | unless of course you mean HARM abandoned root in favour of a weird halfarsed concept | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | root with X is not *beyond* root | 01:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | root with no capabilities < root with some capabilities < root with all capabilities < root with tcb | 01:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | of course it is | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | so root with tcb is not root then? | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | UHUH | 01:59 |
| * SpeedEvil for a while had an ordinary user called root. | 02:00 | |
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| * DocScrutinizer for a while has ordinary users with UID 0 ;-P | 02:00 | |
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| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: well, if we define "root" as "having uid=0", root with tcb is a strict superset of root | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | most easy way to crack a system when you have nothing but a hex diskeditor | 02:01 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | so it is root, but it's more than root | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if I define HARM as BS, then everything aegis related is nonsense to discuss | 02:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and if you admit the possibility of having uid=0 but being deprivileged, then having the ability to modify a file and obtain those privileges is a security gap | 02:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | damn ssh lag, i'm literally sitting here watching my text input go into the box | 02:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | >>protect it, don't want random execs tampering with it<< c'mon! BWAHAHA | 02:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | THINK about it! | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're saying a file needs additional protection because there are root instances that don't have all privileges? sound rationale! | 02:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: well, were this a selinux system you wouldn't let a program running as uid=0 but user_r mess with the systemwise selinux policy | 02:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this type of scenario exists with EVERY mac architecture | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if this were a wiener saussage, it couldn't get used to drill for oil | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | I mean it's only *your* fault if you think it's a good idea to run arbitrary programs with UID=0 | 02:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: ood thing i'm not comparing this to a sausage, i'm comparing it to another system with similar goals | 02:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, not quite, aegis is sort of a weird example of a mac system, but it's the same general concept no doubt | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | and you suppose this sentence is related to my last post how? | 02:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | are you suggesting aegis got invented to allow running everything as root, just like on crappy managed windoze systems? | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't see any sense in this discussion | 02:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: no, but there'sa lot of crap that probably shouldn't be run as root but is | 02:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ugh, this lag is extreme, i don't now what's going on | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | mhm, yeah. And if we have such a great thing like aegis, we finally got the ultimate solution to this | 02:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: we all know how much you like aegis but being bitter about it all the time is doing absolutely nothing good | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually in 30 years on dozens of OS, on 1000s of systems, I *never* encuntered a single problem where I'd have thought "I wish there was a thing like aegis to solve this properly" | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not bitter at all, I'm ROTFL about it | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | and about the ideas that it gives users, regarding "security" | 02:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially because it's already there, it's not like nokia is taking it out at this point, and it's probably going the same route as harmattan now that the n9 isn't to have a successor | 02:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and you'd think something like that if oneof your servers got owned and gave an attacker all access | 02:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aegis is misimplemented for numerous reasons but you seem to just hate security | 02:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, hate non-conventional security models | 02:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | since a lot of the things you bring up are things that are just stuff you have to deal with on any system that goes beyond root / not root | 02:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | go beyond God | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS | 02:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | invent a kinky system concept, then come up with a kinky solution for it | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | actaully I'd be bitter if I had spent money for that crap, but I only wasted my time, and that I'm free to stop right here and now | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: more like - go between peasant and god | 02:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | all or nothing just isn't that great of a solution | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | and a Wiener actually is no good drilling tool for mineral oil exploration | 02:35 |
| Sazpaimon | anyone with experience with nemo mobile around here? #nemomobile is pretty dead around thid time | 02:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: i might have asked you before, but any opinions about the trusted execution utility (i.e. sudo for aegis) | 03:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's somewhat relevant to open mode as well as inception | 03:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also since when were you working w/ nemo so much | 03:00 |
| Sazpaimon | itsnotabigtruck, to be honest I havent really used nemo extensively | 03:02 |
| Sazpaimon | i just want to try to get it to boot with minimal effort | 03:02 |
| Sazpaimon | also no i dont really have any opinions on that, sorry | 03:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: sure you do, everyone who uses the command line should :p | 03:08 |
| Sazpaimon | im perfectly happy with opensh | 03:08 |
| Sazpaimon | arbitrary privilege escalation be damned | 03:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: but at the very minimum the syntax isn't very friendly | 03:09 |
| Sazpaimon | i come from a debian world | 03:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | opensh -c 'aegis-exec -c -a ... program args' | 03:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 03:10 |
| Sazpaimon | i just opensh and do my work there | 03:10 |
| Sazpaimon | then exit when done | 03:10 |
| Sazpaimon | that's the debian way (tm) | 03:10 |
| Sazpaimon | the ubuntu way is to basically append sudo to 90% of the commands you run | 03:11 |
| Sazpaimon | you know what I would do if I had sudo? | 03:11 |
| Sazpaimon | sudo -s | 03:11 |
| Sazpaimon | every time | 03:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 03:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the thing is that with a root shell the temptation is there to open a root shell and leave it there for a long time | 03:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and do all sorts of non-root things with it | 03:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which gives you increased opportunities to get owned | 03:20 |
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| Sazpaimon | only inexperienced people do that | 03:31 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | lots of people | 03:34 |
| Sazpaimon | yes lots of people are inexperienced | 03:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's frequently not convenient to open two shells | 03:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially with ssh | 03:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially if you use command history a lot | 03:35 |
| Sazpaimon | i do it all the time | 03:35 |
| Sazpaimon | or you can use terminator | 03:36 |
| Sazpaimon | or whatever the console equivalent is | 03:37 |
| Sazpaimon | i cant remember | 03:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: screen/tmux? | 03:42 |
| Sazpaimon | tmux | 03:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that works, though i'm not sure if it's been ported to harmattan yet? | 03:42 |
| Sazpaimon | that was oit | 03:42 |
| Sazpaimon | *it | 03:42 |
| Sazpaimon | its on the community repo | 03:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyhow, you'll still be able to open a root shell with this thing | 03:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: what about this role system idea, that's one of the main things i'm getting at | 03:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | one approach i was thinking of was, assign permissions to users (or assign permissions to roles and then 1 role to a user, same thing) | 03:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and then let the user specify which account to select permissions from (entering the pass for that account) | 03:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so inceptdo @root sh = root password, root permissions | 03:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inceptdo sh = user password, user permissions | 03:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but... | 03:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | usually the entire reason the user is running it is to get the @root permissions, and that model also isn't very flexible | 03:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. what if you want to have more sets of privileges than 1 per user account | 03:54 |
| mtd | does anybody know what setting I can change or file I can edit that will get me the clock on the standby screen of my N950? I'm jealous of all the N9 users that seem to have this, but I've never seen anything on the screen when locked, only when the phone is off and charging (then I see a big-ish battery icon) | 04:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: any opinion on this sudo business | 04:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (i know, this doesn't help with your question, but no one seems to be suggesting anything :/) | 04:23 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: just read it. I don't count as inexperienced...but FWIW I also tend to open a root shell if I'm going to do more than one or two commands as root. I'm OK leaving it open for a time, doesn't bother me. | 04:25 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I of course got burned that way once or twice, and now do actually think about which shell I'm going to use depending on how careful I'm going to be :) | 04:25 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I'm not sure you're going to spend your time wisely working around what experience is the best teacher of | 04:26 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: After two kids I know I prefer them to learn that I'm not just being a controlling parent when I tell them "be careful, you could get hurt if you touch that oven", and of course I don't try to teach that lesson when they could seriously hurt themselves, but I think at some point people are going to want to learn to think about this aspect of what they're doing or they're not. | 04:27 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: give them a big easy way to reset things back to a known working state (reflash), and then give them as much rope to hang themselves otherwise. | 04:28 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: but I don't know your problem space / use cases very well, so lots of this is probably beside the point, sorry | 04:28 |
| Sazpaimon | [21:25] <mtd> itsnotabigtruck: just read it. I don't count as inexperienced...but FWIW I also tend to open a root shell if I'm going to do more than one or two commands as root. I'm OK leaving it open for a time, doesn't bother me. | 04:47 |
| Sazpaimon | thank you | 04:47 |
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| mtd | Sazpaimon: heh | 04:54 |
| mtd | anybody used memotoo (syncml) for harmattan? Would love a way to sync my contacts to evolution / desktop (no, Ovi's not working for me, duplicating stuff, etc, and I don't want to give everything to google either) | 04:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd Sazpaimon: let me emphasize, this isn't about opening a root shell vs not | 04:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's about permissions | 04:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the other part is totally on the wrong track, how to use the program is the prerogative of the user | 04:55 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I guess I thought your question was more "if you had to use sudo or other fine-grained access control / permissions escalation tool, vs. one big hammer to let you do anything, what would you prefer?" | 04:56 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: is there a place I can read about the background so I give you a more relevant answer? | 04:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: well, it's not like i've written up a document or wiki page | 04:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the general problem is: how to make something better than opensh for privilege activation | 04:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the only hard requirement is that it prompt for a password when activating privileges | 04:58 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, ok, I don't know about opensh so will have to read about it | 04:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: it's like develsh but instead of activating a few privileges, it activates all of them | 04:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it doesn't ask for a password | 04:59 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, I like the sound of activating all of the privileges... | 05:00 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: not fussed about the password prompting | 05:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: well, some other people are, and frankly, providing no-password root access isn't that smart in the long term :p | 05:01 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: why not? It's the users' phone. By the time someone has a terminal / physical access, the phone is kinda gone. | 05:02 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: but don't worry, not too fussed so will let the other people that are hash it out. | 05:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: if something like opensh becomes ubiquitous | 05:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then half-assed devs will spawn things through it to do privileged actions | 05:04 |
| franz` | (like sudser on fremantle) | 05:04 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | franz`: is that an example of what to do, or what not to :p | 05:06 |
| franz` | not to :P | 05:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | looking up sudser, it looks like it asks for a password | 05:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what's the issue with it? | 05:07 |
| franz` | it doesn't | 05:07 |
| franz` | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=69009 this thing requires it | 05:08 |
| franz` | and it uses to spawn processes as root on its whim | 05:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | franz`: lol | 05:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://maemo.org/packages/view/sudser/ "Unlike most similar packages | 05:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (becomeroot, easyroot, rootsh), it can provide additional security | 05:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | by protecting root access with a password" | 05:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (didn't realize that had newlines in it) | 05:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | weird | 05:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the other thing - i was thinking about making it so that you wouldn't need to enter the password to activate the role for your current uid, i.e. you could inceptdo w/o a password as root | 05:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which could be used to make the root login shell have all capabilities f.ex | 05:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem with that is: just about anything can assert uid::root | 05:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which could then obtain any credential from there | 05:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but doc's pov is trying to keep capabilities away from someone who's already root is dumb | 05:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and there's a bit of logic to that | 05:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i guess the user could just use my program in place of devel-su altogether, that's probably a better idea | 05:17 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah sounds like it's a more powerful devel-su | 05:19 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I've not thought deeply enough about the threat model to opine on the best use of (your?) limited time. | 05:19 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I bet we could talk for hours on the pros and cons of sudser, etc. | 05:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | heh | 05:20 |
| Sazpaimon | tgalal never responded to my request to delay whatsapp for a week every time someone asks for an update | 05:25 |
| Sazpaimon | :( | 05:25 |
| mtd | speaking of security, what's the deal with dbus access denied messages: dbus-send --system --print-reply --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.mce /com/nokia/mce/request com.nokia.mce.request.req_led_pattern_activate string:"PatternPowerOff" | 05:26 |
| mtd | --> Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied: Rejected send message, 3 matched rules | 05:26 |
| mtd | etc. | 05:26 |
| mtd | man, this security stuff must keep some people well employed. Just pisses me off most of the time :/ | 05:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: you need an aegis credential to do that | 05:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mce::something | 05:27 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: develsh not enough? | 05:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | think something = DeviceModeControl or some such | 05:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | nope | 05:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | opensh is | 05:28 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: first two things I do when ssh'ing in are always develsh + bash | 05:28 |
| mtd | ARGH | 05:28 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ok, thanks | 05:28 |
| * mtd facepalms. | 05:28 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | ah, you're trying to control the led | 05:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think it's mce::LEDControl | 05:28 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yes | 05:28 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: thanks | 05:28 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: how did you figure that out? | 05:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i didn't, but other people have experimented with the led | 05:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and been pissed that nokia denied led control to plebeians like us :p | 05:29 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, ok. I couldn't find any info on the led on the n950 using dbus-send. Plenty on the n900... | 05:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if this is for something "real", be advised that users will need to incept the program | 05:29 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: how can I get opensh? Do I need open mode or can I just install a deb or three on my standard PR1.2 installation? | 05:29 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: no, just playing | 05:30 |
| teleshoes | in this case, "real" means "commercial" | 05:30 |
| mtd | teleshoes: gotcha | 05:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | teleshoes: or mainstream, anyway | 05:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: inception | 05:30 |
| teleshoes | you dont need opensh- | 05:30 |
| teleshoes | just inception | 05:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you need to install inception normally, then run pasiv, then incept opensh | 05:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right, you only need opensh for testing directly at the command line | 05:30 |
| teleshoes | {sry, misread question} | 05:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for the actual program, you can assert ledcontrol in your manifest | 05:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and have users incept the deb | 05:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no opensh required | 05:31 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: sure, cool. Thanks, I saw inception before but didn't have a chance to read through all the details on your web page | 05:32 |
| teleshoes | the page goes into more detail than most people need, if they just want to install some non-nokia blessed debs | 05:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, i guess my site is more than a little bit off-putting to many | 05:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and somebody here was chiding me for all the "blinkenlights" :p | 05:33 |
| teleshoes | heh | 05:33 |
| teleshoes | i like it, btw | 05:33 |
| teleshoes | but it no doubt pushes certain people away | 05:34 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: am I correct in thinking that if I install inception and opensh using your instructions, which are basically "install inception.deb, run PASIV, install opensh deb", right -- then I will be able to use opensh instead of develsh and basically have all aegis-grantable privileges? | 05:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, the problem is finding a balance between hacker chic and web two point oh | 05:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: yep, but you have to install opensh through 'incept' | 05:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | not dpkg or pkgmgr | 05:35 |
| teleshoes | heh | 05:35 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: it's not the blinkenlights, it's that it's a lot of text for someone who knows a bit about debs and aegis and develsh to get the essence | 05:35 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: gotcha | 05:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | incept is a utility that installs a package into the trusted inception domain | 05:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inception doesn't mess with any of the defaults | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it just adds its own domain off to the side | 05:36 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I don't think I understand what "the inception domain" is | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: heh | 05:36 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: is that an aegis concept, "domain"? | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, it is | 05:36 |
| teleshoes | {yes!} | 05:36 |
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| mtd | ah, making sense | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you might have noticed that when installing things, it says installing from com.nokia.maemo | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or installing from '' | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or installing from com.nokia.maemo/ovi | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that sort of thing | 05:36 |
| teleshoes | which is nonsense lies | 05:36 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yup, noticed that | 05:36 |
| mtd | teleshoes: heh | 05:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | those are sets of privileges assigned to a particular signing key | 05:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inception adds another one | 05:37 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, ok | 05:37 |
| mtd | ah so "domain" is really just DNS domain, but specially privileged from aegis' POV | 05:37 |
| mtd | kinda? | 05:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: nah, there's no connection to dns | 05:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | except that nokia sort of used a reverse-dns convention for naming some of them | 05:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a la java | 05:38 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: well not directly, sorry, yeah, I understood it as a naming scheme like java's that's similar in content to DNS for convenience | 05:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i guess a dns domain is generally controlled by some administrative domain | 05:39 |
| teleshoes | it would totally make senes | 05:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and each administrative domain would have its own aegis domain | 05:39 |
| teleshoes | if some third party signing body | 05:39 |
| teleshoes | was responsible for signing them | 05:39 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: got it - the "domain" is just the name, it's the association of domain to a key and the key's privileges that's the imnportant part | 05:39 |
| mtd | teleshoes: sure | 05:39 |
| teleshoes | but it is just fucking nonsense | 05:39 |
| teleshoes | they should be named sensibly | 05:40 |
| mtd | teleshoes: well in theory, maybe, but in practice, seems like a sensible place to start before said trusted third party and welcoming user + developer ecosystem exist. | 05:40 |
| mtd | teleshoes: what should be named sensibly? | 05:40 |
| teleshoes | 'installing from com.nokia.maemo/ovi' | 05:40 |
| teleshoes | => | 05:40 |
| mtd | teleshoes: instead of com.nokia... should be super.trusted....? | 05:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 05:40 |
| teleshoes | 'aegis permission level/name/thing: nokia-system' | 05:41 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: thanks, that makes things make a lot more sense for someone less familiar with the aegis universe of discourse | 05:41 |
| mtd | teleshoes: yeah, gotcha | 05:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, the dns naming thing was probably a mistake | 05:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | esp because it isn't applied consisently | 05:41 |
| teleshoes | i hate the convention in java packages too | 05:41 |
| teleshoes | YES | 05:41 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: doesn't seem too bad to me | 05:41 |
| teleshoes | exactly | 05:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | com.nokia.maemo/ovi, but com.nokia.maemo/org.formeego.apps | 05:41 |
| teleshoes | yea | 05:41 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: in your "CONDUCT THE INCEPTION" instructions, the PASIV step is completely opaque to me | 05:42 |
| teleshoes | strikes of businessy bureaucratic bureaucrats | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a subordinate domain represents a delegation of trust, not a part of the same organization exactly | 05:42 |
| Sazpaimon | i cant for the life of me figure out how so many idiots managed to buy an N900 | 05:42 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: what is pasiv? why do I need it? etc. | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: pasiv is what does the magic | 05:42 |
| Sazpaimon | i always guessed that the N900 was for, well, you know | 05:42 |
| Sazpaimon | intelligent people | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | installing inception just puts the software on your N9 | 05:42 |
| teleshoes | pasiv is opaque to me too | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you have to run pasiv to make it do anything | 05:42 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah so pasiv is part of what inception.deb installs? | 05:42 |
| teleshoes | its the hacky bit | 05:42 |
| Sazpaimon | but i look at any thread on TMO | 05:43 |
| teleshoes | pasiv is the nokia-security-hole exploitation | 05:43 |
| Sazpaimon | and almost all of them are littered with posts from complete idiots | 05:43 |
| mtd | teleshoes: ah ok. | 05:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: well, that's kind of a problem with forums in general | 05:43 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: ignorant people, probably. Idiots might be a bit harsh. | 05:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: imo idiots is about right | 05:43 |
| teleshoes | i dont think its harsh | 05:43 |
| teleshoes | yea | 05:43 |
| teleshoes | there are definitely stupid people | 05:44 |
| Sazpaimon | i just want to know where they got their devices | 05:44 |
| teleshoes | they have job titles like senior vice-president of managing | 05:44 |
| teleshoes | ebay..? | 05:44 |
| mtd | start a poll "what's your IQ" :) | 05:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the other thing is, i want to say "it sounds dumb because they're new at english" or some such, but much of the time the posts are dumb no matter the language | 05:44 |
| Sazpaimon | here's a random post | 05:44 |
| Sazpaimon | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1182788#post1182788 | 05:44 |
| teleshoes | random? | 05:44 |
| Sazpaimon | itsnotabigtruck, the language of stupid is universal | 05:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i guess the people who know what they're doing also often happen to have better writing | 05:45 |
| teleshoes | the scary thing is | 05:45 |
| Sazpaimon | its like | 05:45 |
| teleshoes | theyre certainly smarter than half of the other people | 05:45 |
| Sazpaimon | what appeal did a device like the N900 have on these guys | 05:45 |
| teleshoes | who cant think enough to sign up, find a place, and post | 05:46 |
| teleshoes | their crazy stupidness | 05:46 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: it might be better to explain "pasiv will do the critical privilege escataion to allow you to do all the rest of the magic" in addition to the link to the strange PASIV user manual, but it's probably just an in joke that I wouldn't get | 05:46 |
| Sazpaimon | that it was linux? im pretty sure many of them never even heard of linux | 05:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: lol | 05:46 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: perhaps I can suggest something better than "rest of the magic", too | 05:46 |
| Sazpaimon | that it was multitasking? symbian can multitask | 05:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's called pasiv because that's what the dream machine is called | 05:46 |
| Sazpaimon | because it's a nokia? i would submit that there are a ton of nokia phones more suitable for these people | 05:46 |
| teleshoes | the guide does go back and forth between elitist in-talk and baby-got-a-boo-boo | 05:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | teleshoes: yeah...it's hard to write stuff targeted at a broad audience | 05:47 |
| teleshoes | yea | 05:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and i probably was off the mark a bit | 05:47 |
| teleshoes | totes | 05:47 |
| teleshoes | i think it did the job, though | 05:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | teleshoes: which parts are the most condescending / the most opaque | 05:47 |
| Sazpaimon | i want to spend a day looking at old TMO posts and find the tipping point | 05:47 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, I get the etymology but it's not helping an ignorant person understand that particular step :) | 05:47 |
| teleshoes | of alluring people with a movie jokey thing | 05:47 |
| Sazpaimon | because ive been around TMO for years | 05:47 |
| Sazpaimon | and it was never, *never* as bad as it was today | 05:47 |
| teleshoes | the pasiv thing like he says, and the opensh bit, and the thing at the bottom | 05:48 |
| teleshoes | i forget which, one tic | 05:48 |
| Sazpaimon | just compare the N900 announcement thread to the N9 | 05:48 |
| Sazpaimon | both very large, but you can clearly see the difference | 05:48 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I would say that your instructions and tools are a HUGE improvement over anything else I've seen to do this type of thing | 05:48 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: any time you ask a large group of people for considered opinions you are going to get a race to the bottom of communication quality. | 05:49 |
| teleshoes | right, aegistctl | 05:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | teleshoes: well, it gets progressively less detailed because i didn't want to retread over the same stuff already done in previous sections | 05:49 |
| teleshoes | i think a wiki would be best | 05:49 |
| teleshoes | but i really like wikis | 05:50 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: so I'm trying to be constructive because it is really helpful, please don't think I'm being ungrateful. | 05:50 |
| Sazpaimon | also, it seems in the last year ive heard the word "petition" thrown around tmo about 831 times | 05:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. if you ran pasiv, you figured out how to launch the terminal, so there's no need for the [a) open terminal b) log into ssh] stuff past "conduct the inception" | 05:50 |
| Sazpaimon | more or less | 05:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: i don't think so at all | 05:50 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: just wanted to be sure, and confirm with some positive feedback :) | 05:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and yeah, i thought about opening an inception wiki, but getting a new wiki going is hard | 05:50 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: that's a fair point about progressively increasing concision in the instructions | 05:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the maemo and meego wikis are pretty dead | 05:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but at least they have content already | 05:51 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I think that's a good approach | 05:51 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: err, no the wiki necessarily, talking about progressively increaing conciseness :) | 05:51 |
| Sazpaimon | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1185414#post1185414 | 05:51 |
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| Sazpaimon | really? | 05:51 |
| franz` | lol | 05:51 |
| mtd | not a terrible question, but ignorant, yes | 05:52 |
| * mtd has no idea what ISC might mean, can't be bothered to think about that one | 05:52 | |
| Sazpaimon | i think he meant ICS | 05:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: that's not unreasonable | 05:53 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: you baited me into replying :) | 05:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | of a question, that is | 05:53 |
| Sazpaimon | except you can extract the kernel from any fiasco image | 05:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | answer is, do flasher -f -F main.img --flash-only=kernel, but that won't revert open mode | 05:53 |
| Sazpaimon | easy peasy | 05:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and Sazpaimon: that's pretty much nowhere documented, i figured out you had to do that with flasher 3.5 by trial and error | 05:53 |
| Sazpaimon | there was also one guy in the nitdroid thread that was doing "-flash-only=kernel" and couldnt figure out why it wasnt working | 05:54 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: yeah, but might not be obvious - don't underestimate how much info one needs to understand before things start to make sense | 05:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can't expect people to just know something when it's not at all intuitive even to skilled users | 05:54 |
| Sazpaimon | despite the fact that passing that command would show the help screen | 05:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it's not documented anywhere except maybe a random irc log line or forum post | 05:54 |
| Sazpaimon | which CLEARLY shows that you need --flash-only | 05:54 |
| Sazpaimon | with two dashes | 05:54 |
| Sazpaimon | im sorry, it just seems like people at TMO have little to no basic problem solving skills | 05:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: true, my point is though that this question is low on the ignorance scale | 05:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's perfectly valid | 05:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's a lot of questions that aren't | 05:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or people that post over and over and over and over and over when no one answers in 5 mins | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | oh and then there's the overclockers | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | oh | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | god | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | the overclockers | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | who get their N900 clocked to 1.5Ghz and wonder why its melting | 05:55 |
| Sazpaimon | and everything is crashing | 05:56 |
| teleshoes | mine had a ton of cpu errors at 1100 | 05:56 |
| Sazpaimon | and thats not even sarcasm | 05:56 |
| teleshoes | 850 was stable | 05:56 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: heheh | 05:56 |
| Sazpaimon | im pretty sure people ask why their 1000mhz overclock isnt stable | 05:56 |
| teleshoes | 1000 worked if i overvolted it | 05:56 |
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| Sazpaimon | i can just understand why some people revert to trolling | 05:57 |
| Sazpaimon | i like that specc guy | 05:57 |
| Sazpaimon | everyone has a fake N9 according to that guy | 05:58 |
| Sazpaimon | he's ok in my book | 05:58 |
| teleshoes | hmm..? | 05:58 |
| Sazpaimon | he's insisting that everyone who's N9 is peeling has a fake device | 05:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's a lot of dumb posts in my flashing guide thread | 05:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like which image should i flash to, when i pretty much explained it in the op, and clarified in a bunch more posts | 05:59 |
| Sazpaimon | yes because people that make fake devices somehow manage to get the motherboard of the device | 05:59 |
| Sazpaimon | and just fake the casing | 05:59 |
| Sazpaimon | happens all the time | 05:59 |
| Sazpaimon | wait, except it DOESNT | 05:59 |
| teleshoes | you increased the likelihood of that rumour spreading but saying it in a matter of fact tone where the intarwabs could hear you | 06:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 06:00 |
| teleshoes | oh, a feature for inception that id like | 06:01 |
| teleshoes | a deb that ran pasiv during the install process | 06:01 |
| teleshoes | could be possible, right? | 06:01 |
| teleshoes | maybe not | 06:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | teleshoes: it's a bit problematic because of how pasiv works | 06:01 |
| Sazpaimon | i understand now why e-yes insisted on moving all nitdroid discussion to his own forum | 06:01 |
| Sazpaimon | because goddamn | 06:02 |
| Sazpaimon | what TMO needs is more nazi moderation | 06:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | dpkg messes with the policy during the install process, pasiv also messes with the policy | 06:02 |
| teleshoes | mm | 06:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: maybe | 06:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it seems like forum moderation usually ends up being on one extreme or the other | 06:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | one can't force people to be civil or intelligent | 06:02 |
| teleshoes | yea, i agree | 06:03 |
| Sazpaimon | well those people have no place on my internet | 06:03 |
| teleshoes | but | 06:03 |
| teleshoes | what can be done about it? | 06:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | imo forum modding should be limited to operations like merging, stickying, moving | 06:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the tmo mods don't even seem to be doing that | 06:03 |
| teleshoes | yea, there are like no mods | 06:03 |
| teleshoes | one model thats nice is a volunteer program for modding | 06:04 |
| Sazpaimon | [23:03] <teleshoes> but | 06:04 |
| Sazpaimon | [23:03] <teleshoes> what can be done about it? | 06:04 |
| Sazpaimon | PURGE | 06:04 |
| teleshoes | you need mods to do that | 06:04 |
| teleshoes | and nothing stops them from coming right back | 06:04 |
| Sazpaimon | or a well placed sql injection | 06:04 |
| teleshoes | there are tons of determined trollers and determined idiots | 06:04 |
| franz` | it's a forum for a dead OS. time will take care of it lol | 06:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also "nazi modding" never seems to recognize intent | 06:05 |
| Sazpaimon | franz`, tell that to my-symbian | 06:05 |
| teleshoes | yea, moderators arent usually very devvy | 06:05 |
| franz` | lol | 06:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it usually isn't just the idiots who bear the brunt of it | 06:05 |
| Sazpaimon | their forums are still "alive" and "kicking" | 06:05 |
| teleshoes | tmo is incredibly thrive-y | 06:05 |
| franz` | I should check the picodrive s60 thread, now that you reminded me | 06:05 |
| teleshoes | time will tear down the mountains | 06:05 |
| Sazpaimon | i think the problem is, and ive noticed this with all nokia devices, is after a few years the third world gets wind of a device | 06:06 |
| Sazpaimon | and thats when it becomes a problem | 06:06 |
| Sazpaimon | i noticed it with s60v2 | 06:06 |
| teleshoes | hmm, this is sounding suspiciously nazi-ish in general | 06:06 |
| teleshoes | the problem is that with popularity, the idiots come out of the dark | 06:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: right, and that's sort of what i was hinting at with the english stuff earlier...but at the same time, you don't notice a lot of people are from the 3rd world because you have no reason to take notice, they speak just like everyone else | 06:06 |
| teleshoes | as they start hearing about it | 06:06 |
| franz` | http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26549&start=450 still going on lol | 06:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but then there's all these people with tech savvy about as good as their english savvy | 06:07 |
| franz` | ~1 year bump too, nice | 06:07 |
| Sazpaimon | when opera released opera mobile, and made it s60v3 only, the s60v2 people came out of the woodwork | 06:07 |
| Sazpaimon | despite the fact that their OS was dead | 06:07 |
| Sazpaimon | and all of them seemed to be from developing countries | 06:08 |
| Sazpaimon | and india | 06:08 |
| Sazpaimon | india isnt a developing country anymore right? | 06:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: sure it is | 06:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it probably defines "developing" | 06:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | along with brazil | 06:08 |
| Sazpaimon | im sorry but brazil is pretty much its own planet | 06:08 |
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| Sazpaimon | i dont even consider brazil to be part of earth | 06:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 06:09 |
| teleshoes | .... | 06:09 |
| Sazpaimon | i dont have a problem with brazil | 06:09 |
| teleshoes | or mars? | 06:09 |
| Sazpaimon | its just that they live in their own little bubble | 06:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's definitely a pretty weird place it seems, and their government has a rather isolationist trade policy | 06:09 |
| teleshoes | things are different in brazil, to be sure | 06:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and a nonconvertible currency | 06:10 |
| teleshoes | ugh yea | 06:10 |
| Sazpaimon | especially with electronics | 06:10 |
| Sazpaimon | fun fact | 06:11 |
| Sazpaimon | in brazil, many video game series have their own canon | 06:11 |
| Sazpaimon | seperate from the rest of the world | 06:11 |
| teleshoes | what? | 06:11 |
| teleshoes | oh | 06:11 |
| teleshoes | yea | 06:11 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: the warning about not upgrading to new firmware versions without confirming inception is compatible... | 06:11 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: is that gneeral boilerplate, or is there some known problem are? | 06:11 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: with my limited undrstanding I can't see what would be the problem | 06:12 |
| Sazpaimon | mtd, because inception exploits a part of aegis, nokia can patch it at any time | 06:12 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: unless I installed some packages that interfered with the new firmware's, etc. | 06:12 |
| Sazpaimon | they wouldnt even need to issue a PR update | 06:12 |
| Sazpaimon | just an update to developer-mode | 06:12 |
| Sazpaimon | the way nokia wants you to get around aegis is through open mode | 06:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: because there's no way to know with 100% certainty what pr1.3 will bring | 06:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: sort of...realistically they have to issue a pr update | 06:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the pr update is 1.3 | 06:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: so with pr1.3 being an unknown quantity, users are advised not just to hit the button without a second thought | 06:14 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, fair enough, just wondering if my understanding was deeply flawed | 06:14 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: understood | 06:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but instead, go download the new inception when it's out | 06:14 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: the failure mode then is unclear to me though | 06:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: it's not clear what'll happen when upgrading an already incepted phone to pr1.3 | 06:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | inception might keep working, or they might put in a countermeasure | 06:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | incepting with the *old version* after upgrading to pr1.3 definitely isn't going to work | 06:15 |
| mtd | Sazpaimon: if I install some packages with inception, then nokia patches the hole, then presumably still running those packages' software should be fine | 06:15 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, ok | 06:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: if the pr1.3 upgrade leaves the policy alone it'll stay incepted | 06:15 |
| teleshoes | nokia can do absolutely anything they want in the pr upgrade | 06:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right, the whole thing is a wildcard | 06:16 |
| teleshoes | if they specifically hate inception, they can change policy | 06:16 |
| teleshoes | and invalidate everything | 06:16 |
| teleshoes | or they can wipe your phone if youve installed inception | 06:16 |
| Sazpaimon | if they dont fix inception, couldnt nitdroid work with closed mode kernel | 06:16 |
| teleshoes | theres a closed nitdroid kernel? | 06:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: nah, because nitdroid still requires a different kernel | 06:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and that means open mode | 06:16 |
| teleshoes | mm | 06:16 |
| Sazpaimon | oh right duh | 06:16 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ok, so just to see what I don't understand, if they change the policy, then is that policy, like, checked every time a binary installed under the aegis (heh) of that policy going to have it's privileges revoked, or is that just an install-time control? | 06:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, or if someone figures out how to kexec | 06:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then you could boot closed mode with the regular kernel, then boot closed mode again with a custom kernel | 06:17 |
| Sazpaimon | itsnotabigtruck, kexec needs to be compiled in the kernel | 06:17 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ...and thus then all those binaries are going to stop working? | 06:17 |
| Sazpaimon | which would trigger open mode | 06:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: well, you'd have to do something 'interesting' with a kernel module | 06:17 |
| teleshoes | mtd: its unlikely that your packages will stop working with pr1.3 | 06:17 |
| teleshoes | but wait and see | 06:17 |
| mtd | teleshoes: understood then can change policy / wipe phone | 06:17 |
| teleshoes | before upgrading | 06:17 |
| Sazpaimon | my basic understanding of inception is that in a chroot environment you have privlige escalation | 06:17 |
| Sazpaimon | is that right? | 06:17 |
| mtd | teleshoes: yeah, sure, just checking as it doesn't sound too scary | 06:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i highly doubt they're going to do anything too aggressive when it comes to un-doing inception on upgrade | 06:18 |
| teleshoes | im not worried | 06:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like wiping phones | 06:18 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: sure | 06:18 |
| teleshoes | besides, there will always be openmode | 06:18 |
| teleshoes | openmode is nokia-blessed with fairy dust | 06:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: just install inception, and when pr1.3 comes out, inception 0.2 will be there | 06:18 |
| Sazpaimon | open mode is the way to go imo | 06:18 |
| Sazpaimon | no offense to inception | 06:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or whatever version number i put on it, anyway | 06:19 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yup, installing :) | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | openmode is only better because its guaranteed to still be there | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | inception has large advantages | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | doesnt require reflash | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | doesnt have big scary warning/disclaimer | 06:19 |
| Sazpaimon | openmode doenst either | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | and makes aegis not suck | 06:19 |
| Sazpaimon | if you remove it beforehand | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | no reflash yea | 06:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: well, it definitely requires reflash to get *out* of open mode | 06:19 |
| teleshoes | {as of yday for me, yea} | 06:19 |
| Sazpaimon | true | 06:19 |
| Sazpaimon | but once you get openmode set up, there's no reason to go bacl | 06:20 |
| Sazpaimon | *back | 06:20 |
| teleshoes | i reflash like all the time | 06:20 |
| teleshoes | once every two weeks at most | 06:20 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: wget is complaining about your links vs your SSL cert: ERROR: certificate common name `www.endno.de' doesn't match requested host name `endno.de'. | 06:20 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: very small nit, sorry :) | 06:20 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: perhaps I came in on the wrong link? I had https://endno.de/~itsnotabigtruck/inception/ | 06:21 |
| Sazpaimon | wget is annoying with many ssl sites | 06:21 |
| Sazpaimon | mtd, you want https://www.endno.de/~itsnotabigtruck/inception/ | 06:21 |
| Sazpaimon | or just --no-check-certificate | 06:21 |
| Sazpaimon | which i do almost all the time now | 06:21 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, tried that, but, www.endno.de redirects | 06:21 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ...to endno.de, and then the warning gets triggered | 06:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: it's because harmattan comes with an old wget | 06:22 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: it's not a big deal at all, of course | 06:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and its ssl cert checking is dumb | 06:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the cert is valid but wget doesn't think so | 06:22 |
| Sazpaimon | itsnotabigtruck, yeah harmattan's wge tdoesnt have subject alternative name support | 06:22 |
| Sazpaimon | in fact, i dont thinkt it has support for --content-disposition either | 06:22 |
| Sazpaimon | which makes downloading forum attachments a royal pain | 06:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | whoops, that was @mtd | 06:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it's because startcom doesn't issue certs to bare domains | 06:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | at least with the free account | 06:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it always issues to something.domain.tld + domain.tld as an alternative name | 06:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in this case something is www | 06:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so the domains are backwards from what i'd prefer | 06:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it trips up wgey | 06:25 |
| Sazpaimon | actually i think it took the wget guys like | 06:25 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, understood | 06:25 |
| Sazpaimon | 3 years to support subject alternative name | 06:25 |
| Sazpaimon | i love bugs that just sit in a bugtracker for years and nothing happens to them | 06:26 |
| Sazpaimon | especially when theyre completely valid bugs | 06:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you have an N950 you have curl which might work better | 06:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for whatever reason curl is not part of the N9 builds | 06:27 |
| teleshoes | curl is in harmattan-dev | 06:29 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I realised you're going to get even more tired of these nits, but https://endno.de/~itsnotabigtruck/inception/ says "INCEPTION is: ... Safe." and the PASIV disclaimer says "INCEPTION is a dangerous task". | 06:38 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I don't know how to rectify this, because I get what you mean in both cases. | 06:38 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: it just appears a bit odd at first blush. | 06:38 |
| mtd | s/realised/realise/ | 06:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: lol, good point | 06:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i wrote the web page and the pasiv disclaimer at different times | 06:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also "inception is dangerous" had a nice ring to it | 06:39 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: of course, not an issue | 06:39 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: you have more important things to do | 06:40 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: just putting it somewhere in your swap space in case you come across that page later | 06:40 |
| mtd | :) | 06:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like putting off other work >_> | 06:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm tempted to just forget all the complicated features i was talking about for inceptdo and just have one function, prompt for the root password and activate all permissions | 06:41 |
| teleshoes | that is the main use case, i think | 06:44 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah seems quite useful | 06:44 |
| teleshoes | and none, for chaining with aegisctl | 06:44 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | also i could implement the timestamp feature by taking the system monotonic clock and signing it with an aegis credential | 06:46 |
| * mtd has never killed pkgmgrd before running apt-get install -- is it really necessary? | 06:48 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: no, but nuking that dpkg lock file if it's there is | 06:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | killing pkgmgrd just makes sure it isn't actually doing anything when you do that | 06:52 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: gotcha - once it was there and I did need to, but it wasn't there this time | 06:52 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: thanks | 06:52 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: I'm confused by "opensh allows ... any program on your phone the same level of access.". Presumably that's means that opensh will let whatever programs it invokes have full access (credentials or whatever the right term is are inherited), not that by running opensh, somehow all running processes now have all credentials, right? | 06:54 |
| * mtd is going to stop with these documentation questions very soon, promise. | 06:54 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: nah, it's fine, they're not bad questions | 06:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what i mean is that any program could do its bidding through opensh | 06:55 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. system("opensh evil.sh") | 06:55 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: ah, due to lack of password, sure. | 06:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | without being incepted, and thus requiring you to enter your root password to acknowledge it | 06:56 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: gotcha | 06:56 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, I see the concern. I think it's relatively theoretical, but you'll know you've arrived when malware starts probing for opensh's presence in a system :) | 06:57 |
| mtd | wow, I sure have a lot of groups when running opensh | 06:58 |
| mtd | that dbus call works now, which is nice :) | 06:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: or just apps written by people who don't know what they're doing | 06:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like franz was talking about earlier w/ sudser | 06:59 |
| mtd | hmm, trying to run "/bin/bash" gets "Operation not permitted" | 06:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rainisto was concerned about opensh probing, though there's much worse issues than that | 06:59 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: yeah, I see (but can't get too worried about that problem) | 06:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, read the next section in the docs, after the opensh part :p | 06:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the end of the opensh part also | 07:00 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: doh, sorry | 07:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also people on the forums have already suggested opensh probing as a real solution for things | 07:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like coderus i think | 07:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so sooner or later someone is actually going to do that, lol | 07:01 |
| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: sigh...sign there is a need for...something, I guess :) | 07:01 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: any idea how sudo actually invokes its argument | 07:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like does it run it through a shell, etc. | 07:33 |
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| mtd | itsnotabigtruck: no, sorry...yeah that must be careful magic, that step | 08:18 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | mtd: i'm just going to use execvp | 08:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it looks like sudo does a lot of validation of things but that's mostly because sudo allows delegating to untrusted users | 08:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this is exclusively for fully trusted users | 08:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | once the validation checks are passed it doesn't matter what happens as long as the user requested it | 08:27 |
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| djszapi | bef0rd: what you gave me is a daemon, not a library :/ | 08:36 |
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| tgalal | Sazpaimon: LOL and that would delay the project for years | 08:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | we're so happy aegis and now even inception are solving the problems we never had on regular systems, means those systems that had classical user / file permissions concept | 08:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Don't forget the cunning marketing that means most people interested can't buy it, so avoid any possibility of problems. | 08:59 |
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| gabriel9|work | morning | 11:05 |
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| diorahman | Woohhooo, is this a good news for Qt and MeeGo? http://www.netbooknews.com/47197/nokia-working-on-two-new-low-end-meego-smartphones/ | 13:13 |
| diorahman | yeah, why? http://www.netbooknews.com/47198/why-is-nokia-still-working-on-meego/ | 13:15 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: wut | 13:17 |
| X-Fade | Articles full of wishful thinking.. | 13:17 |
| bindi | oh nevermind | 13:18 |
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| diorahman | hahahhaha | 13:20 |
| diorahman | Just for laugh :-) | 13:20 |
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| jreznik | nokia still exists? :D | 13:35 |
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| gabriel9|work | you guys don't trust nokia anymore :D | 14:26 |
| gabriel9|work | and why low end? everybody wants smartphone today to play games | 14:28 |
| psycho_oreos | I don't think anyone would trust nokia considering the way the handled the meego/maemo community. Not unless if they are a newcomer and are oblivious to the aforementioned fact | 14:28 |
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| jreznik | build qt strategy, destroy qt strategy (and repeat the next billion without any info), force them to wp and then - hey, we have a new qt strategy, join us! :) that's great :))) | 14:44 |
| Anssi138 | *gets popcorn* | 14:56 |
| Khertan | jreznik, there is no new qt strategy | 15:00 |
| * Khertan just discover that is debian gnome session crash due to flash in iceweasel | 15:01 | |
| Khertan | .... strange ... | 15:01 |
| jreznik | Khertan: I still believe there will be :) | 15:02 |
| Khertan | jreznik, http://tinyurl.com/6h9prrz | 15:07 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | did some new info come out about these 2 new phones | 15:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beyond the bs articles floating around yesterday | 15:50 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/rj37t/seven_years_ago_my_dad_smuggled_us_out_of_iraq/c468g0y?context=1 lol | 16:30 |
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| gabriel9|work | i don't get this stuff | 17:04 |
| gabriel9|work | what is the catch | 17:04 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | gabriel9: the catch? | 17:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, speaking of morons on TMO...http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1185591#post1185591 | 17:30 |
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| Corsac | hmhm, can I select text from the n9 browser? | 19:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Corsac: nope, it's a notable limitation | 19:18 |
| Corsac | thanks | 19:18 |
| flux | hmm, but you can? | 19:19 |
| flux | it came with pr1.2 | 19:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | any idea why mkdir(2) might refuse to make a directory at ~/foo | 19:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | flux: oh, ok | 19:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | are you sure that's not just in the address bar | 19:19 |
| flux | yes | 19:19 |
| flux | basically hold your finger at some text and it starts | 19:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | flux: ok | 19:19 |
| flux | do it over link and you have the option to do it | 19:19 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | any idea about the mkdir thing? | 19:19 |
| flux | itsnotabigtruck, as root or user? | 19:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mkdir(1) - that is, the shell command - works fine | 19:20 |
| flux | strace mkdir ~/foo ten | 19:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in scratchbox, as user | 19:20 |
| flux | then | 19:20 |
| flux | ooh scratchbox | 19:20 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | but in my c program it fails with "no such file or directory" | 19:21 |
| flux | 1) strace mkdir | 19:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm wondering if mkdir doesn't know about ~ | 19:21 |
| flux | 2) strace yourproggy | 19:21 |
| flux | 3) observe difference :) | 19:21 |
| flux | mkdir doesn't know about ~ | 19:21 |
| flux | you're really trying to mkdir '~/foo'? | 19:21 |
| flux | you need to expand it yourself | 19:21 |
| flux | btw, the strace would've revealed that as well ;) | 19:22 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | flux: and it did, just now...but i thought it was automatically expanded | 19:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | doesn't e.g. open("~/...", ...) work? | 19:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if so, a lot of other stuff wouldn't work | 19:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *if not | 19:24 |
| flux | itsnotabigtruck, no, no c functions know about ~, only shell does | 19:25 |
| flux | ~foo etc | 19:25 |
| * infobot foo! || <action> bar etc || <reply> foo etc bar || foo | 19:25 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | flux: cat: ~/test.txt: No such file or directory | 19:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hrm, indeed | 19:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | never realized that was shell magic | 19:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | thought it was libc magic or something | 19:26 |
| flux | the only magic close to it I know of is the glob-function | 19:26 |
| flux | but that's it. | 19:26 |
| flux | itsnotabigtruck, you do know that *.foo gets expanded by the shell as well?-) | 19:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | flux: yeah | 19:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but that's different | 19:33 |
| virtuald | hey guys do you think aegis has something to do with uefi secure boot? | 19:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | virtuald: no, not really...it's the same general type of concept though | 19:36 |
| SpeedEvil | virtuald: Seperate unrelated implementations. | 19:36 |
| virtuald | ok | 19:36 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | virtuald: also, aegis is really separate from the secure boot stuff | 19:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which is all in the bootloader | 19:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that latter part would be more comparable to UEFI's setup, except | 19:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the N9's arrangement, like most embedded devices, is to lock the device to officially shipped firmware | 19:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | whereas the UEFI setup is a lot more configurable than that | 19:40 |
| virtuald | aha | 19:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Not on ARM itsnotabigtruck | 19:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | SpeedEvil: yeah :/ | 19:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, not on tablets shipped for windows arm, which is going to be all the uefi tablets probably | 19:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | is anyone able to connect to https://endno.de/~itsnotabigtruck/inception right now | 19:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | wait, i just did | 19:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | my jabber server must be down independently of the server | 19:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | looks like it bombed out 6 hours ago :/ | 19:45 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | ok, finally got my home directory resolution working | 20:00 |
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| rlinfati | is possible boot the n950 from a nfs root ? | 20:23 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | anyone know the correct way to include the openssl blurb in a debian source package | 21:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hm, rereading the license i guess that's not needed | 21:46 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | wow, it's really dead today | 23:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what happened | 23:14 |
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