IRC log of #harmattan for Wednesday, 2012-03-07

DocScrutinizeryou have no option to not upgrade. Nokia can force you to upgrade, by simply not allowing you to connect to any of their services with the 1.2 version00:00
DocScrutinizerthey can even remote-nuke your system if they like to00:01
DocScrutinizerso - of course you may decide to never ever again allow N9 to access internet00:01
paonce you jailbreak, you can set your own iptables rules :)00:02
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DocScrutinizeror you simply nule all your update and auth mechanisms, at least that's sth you're free to do *in open mode* ;-P00:02
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DocScrutinizershow me the iptable rule that makes nokia account for maps work00:03
DocScrutinizeror that one for updates00:03
DocScrutinizeryou're kidding, are you00:04
DocScrutinizerhonestly, I got better things to do than to help you swallow aegis one way or the other00:04
DocScrutinizerI'm not interested in N9, I've been interested in MAEMO00:05
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DocScrutinizernot HARM though00:05
DocScrutinizerand now I execute my announced reduction of involvement00:05
admiral0DocScrutinizer ... the force is weak in you00:06
Sazpaimon_javascript:alert(eval('tb=ya;qa=Wa;window[$$(".player")[0].getAttribute("id").replace("player_", "initPlayer")]()'));00:09
Sazpaimon_running that in firefox makes vimeo force load the flash player00:09
Sazpaimon_rather than an error00:09
admiral0what? flash?00:09
Sazpaimon_I asssume a userscript can be made to do that00:09
Sazpaimon_admiral0, check the ovi store, it was published earlier today00:09
Sazpaimon_apparently vimeo assumes that any device with a screen width or height less than or equal to 480 is a mobile device00:10
Sazpaimon_and doesn't even bother with the flash player00:10
Sazpaimon_it tries to load the html5 player I guess00:10
Sazpaimon_which of course firefox wont work with since it's h26400:11
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tehdelyi find it hilarious that people here are getting upset at someone discovering and exploiting a security vulnerability00:15
tehdelyparticularly when he's doing so to satisfy a well-stated need00:15
tehdelywhich is for N9 owners to have full control of their phone00:15
tehdelywould you prefer that some shady person exploited it and used it to distribute malware, and nobody was ever aware?00:16
DocScrutinizertehdely: you're talking BS00:16
tehdelyno i'm not, i'm talking reality00:16
* admiral0 plays the imperial march00:16
DocScrutinizerthere've been others that discovered it and discussed it for weeks and months if it's a god thing to disclose or not00:17
tehdelyINCEPTION is a tool, nothing more.  and it takes advantage of someone else's mistake.00:17
tehdelyyet we're supposed to shoot the messenger, lest we offend the great volcano God Nokia00:17
DocScrutinizerand this TOOL is worth nothing00:17
DocScrutinizeras are your comments00:17
tehdelyin case nobody's noticed, Nokia is not exactly making this platform their, um, top priority00:17
tehdelyso something that lets users assume more control over their phones is precisely what is needeed00:17
DocScrutinizerGET OPENMODE, idiot!!!00:17
tehdelyi already did, thanks00:18
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tehdelynice flounce00:18
tehdelyis everyone this touchy?00:18
admiral0well, this means they care :P00:18
tehdelytaking someone exploiting a software bug as a personal insult is ...00:18
tehdelychildish?  i dunno.00:18
* tehdely makes some tea00:19
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admiral0ah, itsnotabigtruck, meet one of my friends, beta400:22
itsnotabigtruckhey beta400:23
GeneralAntillestehdely, I doubt you've invested as much time in this platform as DocScrutinizer has.00:24
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tehdelyi haven't invested one second, TBQH00:24
tehdelyi am a prosumer, not a developer00:24
GeneralAntillesWell then, there you go.00:24
tehdelyi bought an N9 with the expectation that i would be able to make it do fun things, because it's my phone and I own it00:25
tehdelyand i appreciate when people develop tools that facilitate that aim00:25
admiral0in fact GeneralAntilles, i understands how DocScrutinizer feels00:25
beta4I've been looking for an open smatphone for quite a while, and the N9 was the perfect chioice00:25
GeneralAntillesI'm sure there's plenty of things you're invested in that you'd get worked up to if you perceived someone screwing them up.00:25
infobotadmiral0 meant: in fact GeneralAntilles, i understand how DocScrutinizer feels00:25
tehdelyresting your happiness or satisfaction on the expectation that nobody will exploit a security vulnerability is a fool's errand00:25
GeneralAntillesNobody's resting happiness.00:26
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itsnotabigtruckbeta4: have you become incepted yet?00:28
beta4I don't think so00:28
beta4but first I have to understand what inception is00:28
kozziwhat does it really mean for an average user ?00:29
kozzihow I understand is, it's like jailbreak on ios or android00:29
kozzibut what's is the real benefit for it on meego ?00:30
itsnotabigtruckkozzi: pretty much - and just like those, there isn't a whole lot to do with it until devs start taking advantage of it from new apps00:30
kozziwill it allow, i.e having flash player working nicely with the default browser00:31
tehdelynot unless you patch the default browser to allow plugins00:31
itsnotabigtruckkozzi: not unless nokia open sources the default browser, which isn't too likely00:31
itsnotabigtruckbut it does allow things like what's listed near the top of the page00:31
itsnotabigtruckobviously aegis doesn't present much of a problem for more pedestrian apps00:32
beta4well, firefox seems to run fine on the n900:32
itsnotabigtruckbut there's a number of areas where you start running up to the walls fairly quickly00:32
itsnotabigtruckinception lets you scale those walls00:32
beta4it's a bit slower, but...00:32
kozziuserscripts supports would be awesome :(00:32
admiral0now that megavideo is no more T.T00:34
admiral0now they release flash00:34
Sazpaimon_kozzi, you can compile userscripts into a regular xpi extension00:39
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kozziSazpaimon_ could it be then used with default browser ?00:42
kozziI don't really like fennec00:43
kozziits ui is unnatural to use00:43
beta4n9 is my first smartphone, everything looked innatural to me at first :)00:44
kozzibut do you like it ?00:45
beta4its ui is responsive00:46
beta4maps, drive work well00:46
admiral0beta4 and me are qt fanatics00:47
beta4phonecalls no problem00:47
beta4email is an epic fail though00:47
kozzime too, but I find fennec ui to be messy somehow00:47
aikakanai find it annoyingly slow00:47
kozziI haven't yet find any complain for the mail, it works the way I expected00:48
beta4on the plus side, the shell works well, I even installed GCC so I fell at home00:48
infobotbeta4 meant: on the plus side, the shell works well, I even installed GCC so I feel at home00:48
kozzithe first email client for mobile I used is symbian's one and it's very slow00:48
kozzinice feature00:49
Sazpaimon_kozzi, nothing can be used with the default browser00:49
Sazpaimon_the default browser does one thing, display web pages00:49
beta4unfortunately despite I've checked the "Donwnload only last 100 messages"00:49
beta4fenix mail downloaded all my messages00:50
Sazpaimon_in fact grob's deb description is "Simple browser"00:50
pado you think it is allowed to put in the store a package that has python as dependency?00:50
beta420000 email messages, with attachments summing up to 600MB00:50
Sazpaimon_pa, you can have a depedency on any package nokia offers in the default repository00:50
rZrpa: store or repo ?00:50
beta4then it became infinitely slow and unresponsive00:50
paah ok00:51
paovi store00:51
kozziisn't there anyway to use the same engine and interface and then build an 3rd party browser with plugins support ?00:51
rZrpa: but you can put apps into our shared repo00:51
rZrand i am afraid there is no alternatives for odd dependencies00:51
kozzibeta4, now that you mension, I think the mail app doesn't tag my mails read00:51
kozzion the server00:51
Sazpaimon_havent had that issue00:52
kozziI could be wrong those, my N9 is at nokia care atm00:52
payeah... a clip that played fine in 1.1. doesnt play now..00:52
rZrany of you use ?00:52
kozzirZr: I used to00:53
rZrwhy not anymore ?00:53
kozziphone at nokia care00:53
paah no it plays. but it stops on frameskips, then one has to press play again00:53
rZrkozzi: too bad .. hope it return home soon00:54
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beta4kozzi: why is your phone @ nokia care?00:55
rZrit was upgraded with windows accidentally00:55
rZrdowngraded i meant00:55
SpeedEvilhas anyone else tried to install flashplayer, and had problems with dependancies?00:56
kozzibeta4: found out that my gps doesn't work since the first day, can't acquire any satellites at all00:56
rZrSpeedEvil: i dont plan too00:56
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kozzirZr: is apps commenting coming to a4m at some point ?00:58
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kozzi*or rating00:58
rZri donno you tell me00:59
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rZrit needs at least 6 review IICR00:59
kozzioh, I though you are the one working on the application :D00:59
Sazpaimon_who made the live clock icon for harmattan00:59
Sazpaimon_i want to ask them what posessed them to use the second hand for a minute hand01:00
kozziit would be nice to be able to rate the application using the client with testing enabler01:00
rZrkozzi: i am working on the app published on a4m01:00
rZrkozzi: i think it is01:00
kozzioh, perhaps mine version was too old then01:01
rZrr u logged ?01:01
kozzinope.... lol01:01
kozzimaybe that's why01:01
rZrone day it will scan your brain01:02
rZrbe patient01:02
kozzithe N900 is able to do it, maybe someday with n901:02
rZrgo a n9 handy ?01:03
rZrhave you got a n900 handy ?01:03
kozzinope, but it's not difficult to find one at my school01:04
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kozzireally wanted one though, but the price was  a bit too much when it got released01:05
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rZryes and that usb goof...01:15
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Aranelitsnotabigtruck: congrats, didn't try yet but inception looks great =)01:53
Aranelitsnotabigtruck: I'll make that manual security lock shortcut I mentioned, one of the first inception-apps :p01:53
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itsnotabigtruckAranel: nice02:10
itsnotabigtruckand thanks02:10
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Aranelitsnotabigtruck: how does it play nice with Aegis? doesn't it complain/MALF if you make a change on a refhashlist'ed file?02:11
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itsnotabigtruckAranel: still there?02:34
itsnotabigtruckno change re the refhashlist02:34
Aranelitsnotabigtruck: yup I'm here02:34
itsnotabigtruckthe difference is that now you can do whatever you want to the refhashlist :p02:34
itsnotabigtruckit doesn't /disable/ aegis, it /reconfigures/ aegis to give you full access02:35
Aranelitsnotabigtruck: oh, so I can just modify it as I want, nice ^^02:35
itsnotabigtruckthe usual aegis rules are still in effect02:35
itsnotabigtruckhowever, it's possible to start with such access and use it to actually disable aegis, or put it in permissive mode02:35
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itsnotabigtruckbut that's complicated and not everyone wants that and i needed to launch02:35
AranelIt's what we needed from the day #1, at last it's possible now :)02:36
Aranelwell I'm not really sure about entirely disabling Aegis anyway, it'll do more good than harm if user has rights to reconfigure as he/she wants.02:36
itsnotabigtrucksort of...the added security benefit is debatable, but it does at least allow applications to minimize their privileges02:37
itsnotabigtruckwhich could minimize remote exploitability02:37
itsnotabigtruckalso aegis can't exactly be simply removed without causing a lot of problems02:38
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Aranelitsnotabigtruck: well as far as I understand, it doesn't grant anything to any app without user's consent, I think that's pretty much reliable and secure :) There's no need to grant everything to every app, or being paranoid and blocking creativity.02:47
Aranelhope to see creative hack-apps soon :)02:48
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itsnotabigtruckAranel: right, installing inception doesn't make the system any less secure02:56
itsnotabigtruckthe user always decides what to install and has to enter the root password to do so02:56
M4rtinKwell, I don't thing the user is ever presented with the privileges an Application demands03:13
M4rtinKso if a chess application properly demands tracker and camera access, the user won't see it anywhere03:14
itsnotabigtruckM4rtinK: right, though the chess app could do so without INCEPTION03:14
itsnotabigtruckINCEPTION doesn't change the default behavior at all03:15
SpeedEvilI don't think any OS has sane enough granularities.03:15
SpeedEvilAny mobile deployed OS03:15
itsnotabigtruckyou have to run the package through 'incept' toengage the bypass and gain the extra capabilities03:15
itsnotabigtruckincept demands the user's root password before acting03:15
itsnotabigtruckso, if you've got a chess app and the developer wants you to incept it, be suspicious03:16
M4rtinKI was just commenting on how the current Aegis privilege implementation is a bit absurd :)03:16
itsnotabigtruckoh, right03:16
M4rtinKBTW, good job with Inception ! :)03:17
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it seems like one of the major gains, if not the gain, from this sort of privilege system is to be able to know what your apps can do03:17
itsnotabigtruckand aegis *could* do that, but atm there's no gui whatsoever to display it03:17
SpeedEvilIt's not absurd - if the ovi people were addressing capabilities.03:17
TronicAre you going to include aegis unseal as well?03:17
itsnotabigtruckTronic: well, aegis unseal doesn't exist yet for PR1.2...fortunately the source is out now03:17
itsnotabigtrucki'm not going to include it with inception, but the intention is to have it available so it can be incepted if desired03:18
TronicI am interested on possibly performance benefit of disabling all the verification.03:18
M4rtinKyaeh - could be just seen as metadata for Ovi people03:18
M4rtinKI remember djszapi mentioning the N9 booting in 2s without Aegis :)03:19
TronicOverclocking is another "hot" thing for me, for the same reasons. I want to device running faster :)03:19
Tronic*the device03:19
virtualdoverclocking a fanless device?03:20
itsnotabigtruckremember that the omap has a spec range of 600 mhz to 1.2 ghz03:21
itsnotabigtruckand it's already at 1 ghz03:21
Tronicvirtuald: N900 could be overclocked from the default 600 MHz to 1150 MHz (and yes, perfectly stable on some of the devices), roughly doubling the speed of it.03:21
itsnotabigtruckof course you could exceed the spec (unless you can't?) but there's not much envelope left to push03:21
virtualdtronic: what about heat?03:22
Tronicvirtuald: The GUI animations went from jerky to smooth thanks to overclocking. Heavy 3D games would run at almost twice the FPS.03:22
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Tronicvirtuald: The heat is not an issue as the total power usage of the CPU is very low on these devices.03:22
virtualdare you sure about that?03:22
itsnotabigtruckyeah, but 600 to 1150 is a much bigger deal than, say, 1000 to 115003:22
M4rtinKwell, at least the N950 is made from aluminium :)03:23
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TronicBattery usage would be the real concern but it isn't such a big issue either as even when overclocked the CPU doesn't use that much more juice (and it still uses far less than 3G communications for instance). Also, most of the time your device will be idling and the CPU will be underclocked & in sleep mode anyway.03:23
M4rtinKalso, the HP Touchpad can be safely overclocked from the stock 1200 MHz to 1750 without a hitch03:24
M4rtinKit uses a pretty different SOC though03:25
TronicAnother issue with overclocking is that it might not be stable if you go too high. Not every unit of N900 could do the maximum frequency and if you overclocked it higher than what your hardware was capable of, you would get random reboots from time to time.03:26
luke-jrthe real issue is lifetime03:26
luke-jreven at 600 MHz, you're lucky if it lasts longer than a year03:27
TronicThe overclocking software was smart enough to revert back to the default settings (no overclocking) if the phone had spuriously rebooted instead of being properly shut down.03:27
itsnotabigtruckluke-jr: really? i thought the big hw problem with the n900 was the usb port, not heat dissipation03:27
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itsnotabigtruckif the default speed really burns out in a year, everybody's N900s should be kaputt by now03:27
TronicSo, I haven't heard of anyone even having to reflash their N900 due to failed overclocking.03:28
javispedroa year in poweron hours03:28
SpeedEvilitsnotabigtruck: The clock goes off >90% of the time or so when the screen is blank.03:28
TronicAlso, I haven't heard of CPUs getting broken on N900. The USB ports do and also there have been problems with display, headphone jack and other components.03:28
M4rtinKI've been running my N900 at 900 MHz for at least a year and a half already03:29
M4rtinKno issues so far03:29
javispedrowell I do know about lots of emmc chip problems03:29
javispedroand there are a few cases of broken devices that have been raised to death in the already too many many overclocking usefulness arguing threads03:30
javispedro*broken SoCs03:30
TronicThere is no real reason why a high clock on silicon would make it break fast, either. These things last decades of use and high temperatures may make that slightly lower but still one really doesn't need to worry about breaking CPUs. It just doesn't normally happen.03:30
javispedroit is not about high temperatures03:30
SpeedEvilTronic: Electromigra...03:31
Tronicjavispedro: Oh, you are speaking of flash memory. That's a completely different animal.03:31
javispedrono, I am not talking about the memory cells03:32
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itsnotabigtruckisn't electromigration due to overvolting, not overclocking?03:33
itsnotabigtruckor is the former necessary to get the desired n900 speds03:33
TronicAnyway, I used my first N900 at 1150 MHz with no issues for about six months until the USB connector broke. The replacement device I got would sometimes reboot at 1150 MHz, so I ended up using 1050 MHz, which works fine (but the USB connector is already broken on that device as well).03:34
itsnotabigtruckerm, speeds. seems like my writing is inversely proportional to my tiredness :p03:34
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: I can't quite recall if any overvolting was done, as the voltages were based on profiles created by developers and not set directly by the user.03:36
TronicThere was heavy undervolting on lower clock frequencies, though, and that made the battery life a little bit longer.03:36
itsnotabigtrucknot sure about how awesome overclocking the n9 would be, though desktop overclocking is the stuff03:38
TronicIt depends on how much headroom the CPU has.03:38
itsnotabigtruckexpensive though, the cooling gear to manage the heat dissipation costs a pretty penny03:39
javispedroitsnotabigtruck: no, it also depends on the frequency03:39
javispedroand many other parameters03:39
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TronicSince the stock frequency is relatively low, there probably is quite a bit room for extra. Another limiting factor is what frequencies you actually can use as the upper limit on that might be lower than what the chip could take.03:40
TronicThe CPU is the biggest bottle neck on N9, so I expect great benefits of that in any case.03:40
itsnotabigtruckTronic: but the stock frequency on N9 is not low03:40
javispedrothe stock frequency on the N9 is the one the SoC is rated for03:40
TronicOn N900 the low amount of RAM (only 256 MB) was the limiting factor, causing jerkiness on desktop.03:40
javispedroon the N900 they considered the "headroom" was enough to set the max freq to 60003:41
itsnotabigtruckjavispedro: ehhhh, the soc is rated for a band of speeds...there's another phone (droid 2 global) with the same chip running at 1.2ghz03:41
javispedrobut this stuff and the "headroom" is all documented in the manual03:41
itsnotabigtrucki suppose they could be binned03:41
javispedroitsnotabigtruck: no, it's not the same chip.03:41
javispedro(well, tbh, not that I've pried open the n950 to check)03:41
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itsnotabigtruckthe wiki table disagrees, at least assuming you're talking about the model number03:42
javispedrothere are several variations of the 363003:42
itsnotabigtrucki guess that isn't 100% reliable03:42
itsnotabigtruckah, hmm03:42
javispedro3630-800, 3630-1000, ...03:42
itsnotabigtrucki thought the clock speeds were mostly based on what the vendor wanted to set it to for a) differentiation, b) heat03:42
javispedroin fact, I remember reading that at least once in wikipedia itself... dunno who changed the page03:42
SpeedEvilThe n900 chip has directly compatible variants that go to 700.03:42
javispedro(e.g. the one used in the pandora iirc)03:43
itsnotabigtruckoh, in fact, it says that right there javispedro03:43
SpeedEvilAlso - remember that die shrinks happen - what was true at the time of production is not always true now.03:43
itsnotabigtruckit says 3630-1000...Nokia N9...3630-1200...Motorola Droid 2 Global03:43
TronicThere also tends to be plenty of headroom to ensure that *all* devices run stable. By careful testing, one can find the limits of a particular unit and for most phones that will be much higher than the highest stock frequency.03:43
itsnotabigtruckSpeedEvil: all 3630's are 45nm i think03:44
itsnotabigtruckit's not normal to do a die shrink without changing the part number03:44
itsnotabigtruckthe old omap3s are 65nm according to the same wiki table03:44
javispedrobut there have been a few revisions of the silicon03:44
javispedrothe n900s for example have been shipped with a few different ones03:44
itsnotabigtruckah yeah, i guess the stepping could affect overclockability03:45
TronicAlso on mobile phones the CPU speed is not such an important factor. E.g. desktop GPUs tend to be clocked as high as possible, with very little headroom (and little room for overclocking) because there the performance is everything and the power usage doesn't really matter.03:45
javispedro(and yeah, design also affects lifetime, albeit it's low probable unless there was some kind of big "misestimation")03:45
itsnotabigtruckTronic: well...a lot of recent cpus have a LOT of headroom, if you can find a way to deal with the heat03:45
itsnotabigtrucke.g. nehalems that can all easily go to the vicinity of 4 ghz03:45
javispedrointel has usually been putting a lot of "headroom" traditionally03:46
javispedroie no one wants to hear of a cpu that has to be clocked slower for it to work after 3 years03:46
itsnotabigtruckheh yeah03:46
luke-jritsnotabigtruck: overclocking always does damage, with or without heat issues03:47
luke-jritsnotabigtruck: the default isn't 600 MHz, it's *up to* 600 MHz.03:47
itsnotabigtruckand at 4ghz it probably isn't exactly completely operating in spec...i've had some rather peculiar issues that are probably due to the clocks03:47
TronicOn mobiles the frequencies are left lower in part to save power, in part to be absolutely sure that there won't be RMAs caused by instability, and in part because people don't choose the phone that happens to have 100 MHz faster CPU over the other that has cool case design.03:47
itsnotabigtruckeven after stress testing it to the max03:47
javispedroTronic: and because no one cares if it breaks after 1 year, or so it seams =)03:48
itsnotabigtruckluke-jr: well, no one pays for an expensive high performance soc to run it at 100mhz03:48
luke-jritsnotabigtruck: it's not even running most of the time03:48
Tronicjavispedro: Also on desktop it is extremely rare to find broken CPUs if not for extreme overclocking (liquid nitrogen cooling, heavy overvolting, ...)03:49
SpeedEvilTronic: Designs and constraints differ. I point to the thunderbolt electromigration issue.03:49
Tronicjavispedro: I am still running a Celeron 333 MHz overclocked to 416 MHz for all of its lifetime, with a broken CPU cooler most of that time. It has lasted far more than a decade and I couldn't care less if it died (I already have a spare server to replace the one in use).03:50
javispedroTronic: I do have a few examples of chips that now need a slower clock (not CPUs), but precisely to exemplify this =)03:51
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: I've been wondering why Intel does that. It probably has something to do with the power usage, and also that the Core architecture is very powerful to start with and very few people actually need the extra speed (e.g. for gamers the GPU is the limiting factor).03:55
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Tronicitsnotabigtruck: And of course you can always pay $999 for the fastest chip which probably comes from that very same production line but that is simply by default overclocked much higher than the cheap chip you actually bought (still with enough headroom of course).03:56
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itsnotabigtruckTronic: it's the power, that and also quite stringent specs04:10
itsnotabigtruckthe spec speeds are designed for the worst case scenario, and overclocking is the art of getting better-than-worst-case performance out of better-than-worst-case scenarios :p04:11
itsnotabigtruckand yeah, the product line differentiation too, though in this case you can overclock a low-end intel chip well beyond the highest "extreme edition" clock speed04:12
itsnotabigtruckhey bef0rd04:12
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itsnotabigtruckbtw luke-jr: have you incepted?04:13
SpeedEvilHas anyone gotten flash working on the n950?04:15
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itsnotabigtruckSpeedEvil: why wouldn't it work?04:18
itsnotabigtruckor was it the dependency problem04:18
itsnotabigtruckwell, download the .deb directly (add /download after the content id) then dpkg -i it and upload the output04:19
SpeedEvilyeah - I should do that.04:20
SpeedEvilNot found the energy yet.04:20
itsnotabigtruckoh btw the inception webpage now has an alternate stylesheet that puts it in black-on-white04:21
itsnotabigtrucksome people on tmo found it an eyesore04:22
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Sazpaimon_does anyone else have an issue where AP mobile unregisters itself until you launch the program again?04:45
Sazpaimon_as in, if you look at its settings in the settings UI, it says to register04:47
Sazpaimon_and it doesnt update on the home screen feed until you re-launch the program04:47
itsnotabigtruckbtw i believe easy debian/harmchom can be made to work under inception by making it aegis-aware04:52
itsnotabigtruckall that needs to be done is to assert the necessary caps for establishing the chroot, and then to assert all caps when running something as root04:53
itsnotabigtruckso significant changes required but it's possible04:53
itsnotabigtruckall caps, as in all linux capabilities (cap::*)04:53
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Sazpaimon_I like how people are still talking about the nokia 80805:06
Sazpaimon_I have a few photographer friends who wont stop talking about it05:07
Sazpaimon_and they thought my E71 and N900 was dumb05:07
itsnotabigtruckyeah, and all the blogs keep posting fluff 808 stories instead of talking about inception :p05:08
itsnotabigtruckalso tomorrow is going to be all ipad05:08
Sazpaimon_sorry but the 808 is kind of a big deal05:09
Sazpaimon_in terms of technology05:09
Sazpaimon_it might actually be the phone that brings me back to symbian05:09
TronicSazpaimon_: No it won't. It's more like Tesla Roadster, a cool concept that no-one will use.05:10
Sazpaimon_Tronic, I disagree, I follow a lot of photography forums and it's a pretty popular subject there. I think a lot of photographers will pick one up05:11
Sazpaimon_plus, color me crazy, but I like how the phone looks05:12
Sazpaimon_and nokia really did a great job with belle, I have to admit05:12
TronicThe markets have responded to it, too. Nokia stock has fallen 10 % after the 808 announcement.05:13
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TronicI am quite sure that the photographers will also stick with their DSLRs or even digital compact, which still produce vastly superior quality to that megapixel monster of Nokia.05:14
SpeedEvilIt depends.05:15
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SpeedEvilIt is almost equivalent in performance to a mediochre point-and-shoot.05:15
Sazpaimon_their stock actually jumped about 10% after the announcement, before leveling off again05:15
Sazpaimon_as does usually happen with announcements like this05:16
SpeedEvilThat may be enough for some to be 'good enough'05:16
Sazpaimon_early announcements of phones that wont even come out this quarter aren't designed to raise stock prices immediately05:17
Sazpaimon_we'll see in Q2 once this thing goes on sale and reviews pop up05:17
Sazpaimon_and once people do side-by-side comparisons againsst DSLR cameras, like what happened with the N805:19
TronicSazpaimon_: The stock rose a few % after the Q4 sales figures from Gartner came out. There was also a minor spike right before the Feb 27 annoucement but I didn't even consider that for calculating the 10 % drop.05:20
* Sazpaimon_ shrugs05:21
Sazpaimon_as I said, I never condiered MWC as a place to try and boost stock prices drastically05:21
Sazpaimon_A lot of investors are still on the fence about nokia as a whole05:21
TronicCounting from the very highest peak on Feb 26 to the current price we have 15 % drop.05:22
Sazpaimon_so I dont expect a single standout device to do much with regard to overall stock price05:22
TronicSorry, Feb 24, there was a weekend in between.05:22
itsnotabigtruckthat's the thing, the 808 is neither an excellent camera nor an excellent smartphone05:22
TronicNor a good phone.05:22
Tronic(well, actually it is a decent phone but not a good smartphone)05:23
itsnotabigtruckit is a pretty cool product, no doubt, but it's not exactly game changing05:23
Sazpaimon_I dont see where you get off saying that it isn't an excellent camera05:23
Sazpaimon_no, it can't compete with the higest of the high ennd thousand dollar cameras05:23
TronicSazpaimon_: It is an excellent phone camera but that doesn't make it an excellent camera in comparison with digital compact.05:23
Sazpaimon_but tech like this can completely obliterate the P&S  market05:24
itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon_: no nokia cameraphone will ever compete with even the low end SLRs from canon and nikon05:24
itsnotabigtruckthose don't cost thousands, more like starting at $500 for current-gen stuff05:24
SpeedEvilAlso - low end SLR != POS05:25
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: Digital compact is the more proper comparison. Also, you get *much* more bang/buck with those.05:25
itsnotabigtrucki mean, i don't expect a cameraphone to, either05:25
itsnotabigtruckSLRs are bulky, for one05:25
TronicHow much does the 808 cost, anyway?05:25
Sazpaimon_200 or so euro05:25
itsnotabigtruckbut cameraphones are cameraphones, and real cameras are something else entirely05:25
Sazpaimon_I dont think the 808 is meant to compete with the DSLR market though05:26
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Sazpaimon_more the P&S market05:26
TronicI would think that a 100 € digital compact easily beats the 808 but I haven't checked the low end digital camera market lately.05:26
itsnotabigtruckyeah, that was a bad comparison on my part05:26
SpeedEvilIt's not even the P&S market. It's the people who would like a P&S and a phone, but don't want to carry both05:27
SpeedEvilAnd the phone may be good enough.05:27
Sazpaimon_so why buy a P&S camera then when you can have a phone that does it05:27
Sazpaimon_thus, the P&S market gets hurt05:27
Sazpaimon_thats asuming this that the 808 sells well05:27
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SpeedEvilI hope they use the obvious musical links.05:28
itsnotabigtruckalso google hates my inception website for some reason05:28
itsnotabigtruckeven though it has lots of inlinks05:28
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djszapimy N9 is still available, but for 300 EUR, if anybody is interested...09:38
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jonnidjszapi: 16GB or 64GB? you can get atleast 350e for 64gb in huuto.net09:43
djszapi64 GB09:44
djszapibrand new.09:44
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djszapino, it is black, but a white cover is obviously not expensive09:44
djszapithough, it does not make everything completely white, just most parts.09:45
petterii already have cyan, but I would love get the white one09:45
djszapiwell, my white one is used a lot.09:46
jonnicurrently huutonet runs white 64gb at 385e and black ones seems to see between 350-400.09:46
djszapimmm, it means I offer it for very cheap :P09:46
Pirudjszapi: where are you located?09:46
djszapiPiru: Helsinki09:47
Piruah cool ;)09:47
djszapiatm, Darmstadt though if someone wanna have it here...09:47
ieatlinttempting, but i have too many friends that would mercilessly mock me for buying another n909:49
Pirudjszapi: package, accessories & receipt etc are also included?09:50
djszapiI am also interested in changing this for a playbook + some money.09:50
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djszapiPiru: unfortunately no receipt.09:50
djszapiit was won at an app competition.09:51
ieatlintnot a bad prize09:51
ieatlinti won of those once, and they gave me a c7, heh09:52
djszapiokay...powertop is now in the apps/tools repository,nice.09:53
Pirudjszapi: just for completeness, any documentation about the competition and the phone being a prize? sorry, but I'm a bit paranoid :P09:54
djszapiPiru: it was an internal competition for our team inside Nokia09:54
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djszapinot sure how much I can talk about it.09:54
djszapidenism1 can at least second it.09:54
djszapibut if needed, I can get the prove from my Nokia team manager I had.09:55
djszapiwho gave out the device.09:55
Piruheh okay, sounds fine ;)09:55
djszapidenism can also second it :)09:55
ieatlintPiru: i can confirm with high certainty that djszapi's claims of working for nokia are legit09:56
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ieatlintbecause you know, another random dude in an irc channel is twice as legit09:56
Pirufine fine :-)09:56
denismyes I am also have black N9 64GB for less than 1 week :) Received at the same moment :)09:57
ieatlintdjszapi: and how many n9s has nokia given you now?09:58
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djszapiieatlint: iirc, 3 N9s, and 1 N950.09:59
djszapijpwhiting: ping10:00
gabriel9|workdjzapi: tell nokia to give more N950 :)10:01
ieatlintbah :P10:01
djszapigabriel9|work: first use auto completion (tab) :P10:01
ieatlintyou're ahead of me... i got two N9s and one N95010:01
ieatlintand since they only gave me 16gb n9s, i went out and bought a 64gb one10:01
djszapiI would probably buy a playbook out of the money.10:02
djszapiso I am interested in changing to that + money, too.10:02
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gabriel9|workguys do you ever sleep?10:03
gabriel9|workevery time i come on irc i see you here10:03
djszapigabriel9|work: I use irc while sleeping, too10:03
djszapisomeone walks, someone chats...10:03
ieatlintthe trick is that i can be on irc during work, and i'm so awesome that i often spend my evenings on it too10:04
gabriel9|workthats great10:04
gabriel9|worki don't have time10:05
gabriel9|workfor anything10:05
gabriel9|worki now try this to get some time10:05
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Jeffrey04anyone uses firefox nightly here?10:12
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auenfgabriel9|work, sleep is for the dead10:18
gabriel9|worki say it also :)10:19
gabriel9|workbut my gf is a pain10:19
gabriel9|workshe force me to sleep10:19
auenfpretend to sleep10:19
gabriel9|worki try :D10:20
ieatlintgive her benadryl, then go back to irc10:20
ieatlinti have the opposite issue... my gf will stay up to 6am :P10:21
auenfhmm, i have 2 apps that i installed from ovi store that now have changed to paid apps10:22
gabriel9|workjust there is no updates10:22
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gabriel9|workfor me it's speed display10:22
Jeffrey04erm, anyone uses fennec nightly?10:23
auenfsome of the comments saying 'its making me pay for each update' sound bad10:23
ieatlintJeffrey04, is there a nightly harmattan build?10:23
Jeffrey04ieatlint: yea, but the new nightly can't be installed due to unmet dependencies10:23
auenfwhat dependency?10:23
ieatlinthah, oops10:23
* auenf considers installing gtalk video call app on PR1.110:24
Jeffrey04auenf: some outdated packages10:24
ieatlintauenf, it claims it needs 1.2... my guess is that it's a real requisite, and the googletalk plugin was also updated with hooks10:24
phakoauenf: I think you won't have much fun with that.10:24
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auenfif it requires 1.2, shouldnt it not be visible, or even the install button disabled for those who cant get 1.2 yet?10:26
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ieatlintpress install, see what happens10:27
ieatlinti bet you'll get an error telling you upgrade, or unknown issue, or similar10:27
Jeffrey04auenf: depends on newer libcontentaction0, libpango1.0-0, libqt4-network, libqt4-opengl, libqtcore4, libqtgui410:28
ieatlintsounds like mozilla is running a pr1.3 beta and compiled against it10:29
Jeffrey04ieatlint, no idea10:29
ieatlinti somehow bet there is binary compatibility with all those though, so if you can ignore deps, i suspect it'll work10:29
auenfmozilla isnt building fennec arm anymore iirc10:31
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Jeffrey04ieatlint: lol, it just refused to install properly10:31
ieatlintmozilla is making harmattan builds10:31
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ieatlintin fact, harmattan got permission from adobe to make a firefox build with flash in it for the n910:32
Jeffrey04and aurora has been broken for days10:32
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Jeffrey04??? is done by mozilla?10:33
ieatlintdunno about that10:33
divan0hi all. is there an alternative QML syntax file for vim, with proper indent handling for QML?10:34
ieatlinti know mozilla is making firefox builds, in fact they're in the ovi store (without flash right now)10:34
Jeffrey04ieatlint: if you install flashplayer from nokia store, then it should work with fennec (regardless what build it is)10:34
Jeffrey04i tried it with earlier nightly build and it worked10:35
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MohammadAGTime to get back to some hacks now that aegis's dead10:35
ieatlintperhaps i misunderstand the specific politics with it10:36
MohammadAGIs there a way to turn on the flash via an API or do I have to do it in a low level way?10:36
auenf'Flashplayer' in ovi store 'by Nokia'10:37
Jeffrey04no idea, the build that i am using is done by a guy (?) named romaxa, according to this thread
auenfrequires firefox10:37
MohammadAGIt's for Firefox10:37
auenfi'm 99% sure that mozilla dont provide builds for harmattan anymore10:37
Jeffrey04MohammadAG: I used it with fennec 12 nightly (earlier build)10:37
Jeffrey04works ok10:37
Jeffrey04but can't install the new nightly (alpha 13)10:38
MohammadAGJeffrey04: Flash version is 10.110:38
* RST38h moos triumphantly10:49
* MohammadAG moos back10:50
MohammadAGBoring algebra class is meh10:50
MohammadAGWell, mainly cause the teacher keeps talking about himself10:51
ieatlintalgebra is one of those things you'll never use anyway10:51
MohammadAGExcept you need it to get grades and get into Uni10:52
ieatlintyou're in high school?10:52
MohammadAGNo, preparatory year in Uni10:52
MohammadAGIsraeli procedures, no idea why10:52
phakowhat? you need algebra for the most interesting part, number theory :-P10:52
ieatlintnonetheless, you're making me feel old :P10:52
ieatlintphako, you clearly don't need it to be successful in life10:53
ieatlintmath skills are overrated10:53
MohammadAGYou need a kick to be successful in life10:53
ieatlintat the market today, i was overcharged for chicken... $2.99/lb instead of $1.99/lb.  i bought 2.92lb of chicken... they couldn't figure out how much to give me back, so after some confusion, they handed me $510:54
ieatlintpeople suck10:54
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MohammadAGI wonder if the iOS app store is a solid income...10:55
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leinirit's not10:57
MohammadAGo/ alterego10:58
CissWitieatlint: knowing algebra you won $2.92.10:59
ieatlintpretty sure what i won was $2.0811:00
CissWitahah, yes11:01
ieatlintbut i lost a bit more faith in humanity11:02
ieatlintnot sure that was worth $2.0811:02
nid0sounds more like you won $5, in the form of cash & chicken11:02
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nid0surely thats worth losing a little bit of faith11:02
MohammadAGOnly if you make them nuggets11:03
MohammadAGOr chicken steak11:03
ieatlintthe chicken was worth several meals11:03
MohammadAG1 hour left for the lesson11:04
MohammadAGCan't think of anything useful to do from the iPhone11:05
MohammadAGHow does one replace a method in a compiled object in a binary with LD_PRELOAD?11:06
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trxwow, tmo is full of trolls11:11
trxi edited the to act as 10.211:13
trxand made the mistake of giving it to them11:13
MohammadAGYou shouldn't distribute binaries11:18
trxi know that, i left it up to them if they want to use it11:22
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MohammadAGThink I understood the concept of hooking, it's easier in iOS but this should be fun11:25
MohammadAGThough I'm not sure if we do this a lot how hacks would be distributed11:26
petterislow news day...
MohammadAGiPad 3 event, i11:44
MohammadAGIt'll fill up Engadget11:44
MohammadAGTbh I kinda prefer the verge now11:44
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Corsachmhm, interesting, pr1.2 sources don't have sources for developer-mode and develsh11:51
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MohammadAG~seen javispedro11:55
infobotjavispedro <~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 8h 4m 14s ago, saying: 'Tronic: I do have a few examples of chips that now need a slower clock (not CPUs), but precisely to exemplify this =)'.11:55
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djszapijonni: ping11:56
psycho_oreospetteri, interesting, thanks11:57
psycho_oreositsnotabigtruck, ping11:57
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djszapido you lose the warranty with inception ?12:03
djszapithe guy looks like toucing himself :D :D12:04
djszapitouching, even :)12:04
Corsacall you do is installing unsigned packages, afaict, so I'm not sure if it can be considered like warranty voiding12:04
MohammadAGYou missed the point12:04
Corsaclike booting a unsigned kernel seem to12:04
MohammadAGHow does a package that simply adds scripts remove lag12:05
MohammadAGTmo's going downhill12:05
djszapiCorsac: if it does not void the warranty, and not even by Nokia policies, it is ok.12:05
sp3000strategic reboot ;)12:05
djszapiuntil PR1.3 :P12:05
djszapiI can even imagine a PR1.2.1 or ismilar for this situation...12:06
gabriel9|workanyone installed openjdk on N9?12:07
gabriel9|workand as i recall i could test some qt desktop app on emulator. Can i start some Qt app which is for desktop on N9?12:08
Corsacafaict from the sources, inception setups a new credential and use it to sign whatever you want to install12:09
djszapihave not checked in details since I am not involved too much with Harmattan anymore anyways :)12:10
Corsaccan someone with a working N9 tell me in which package /usr/lib/developer-mode/bin/devmodeapplet.pl12:14
Pirudpkg -S doesn't work?12:14
CorsacI don't have a working N912:15
djszapiPiru: I guess he does not have a working N912:15
Piruoh working..12:15
Pirujust realized :)12:15
Pirulets see..12:15
Piruduicontrolpanel-devmodeapplet: /usr/lib/developer-mode/bin/devmodeapplet.pl12:15
MohammadAGdjszapi: Don't think this affects Nokia that much12:16
MohammadAGBut hey, I can finally upgrade from beta212:16
Corsachmhm, I don't have the sources for that, it seems12:16
CorsacPiru: any chance you could paste that file somewhere?12:17
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Pirulets see12:26
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CorsacPiru: thanks12:59
Corsacmhm, no idea how it can work, seems to expect an operation, so I guess it doesn't do anything at all, but maybe just running something is enough13:01
Corsacitsnotabigtruck: afaiui you trick aegis by working in a chroot and having your run when xdg-user-dir is initialized, but what exactly does the call do? just trigger a root-owned UI so xdg-user-dir can be called?13:03
jonniCorsac: it just abuses a fact that tcb capabilities should never been given to any scripts if there is chroot capa avail in system.13:04
ieatlintwait, google renamed their app store to the "google play store"? ... cause wow, that's bad... especially with the "gps" name collision13:05
ieatlintmakes "ovi" look awesome13:05
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gabriel9|workwhat does OVI means?13:45
gabriel9|workin my language ovi means "this one"13:45
fluxieatlint, not sure if 'gas' was a great acronym to begin with ;)13:52
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: Inception on Finnish news sites :)13:54
djszapihopefully fixed in PR1.3...13:55
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pais anybody using trackandproctect?13:59
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paand i have also another strange technical question14:04
paif i simply take the tracker database , rename it to something else, and put another tracker database there, would it be transparent for the OS?14:05
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pameaning, say, i open the messages, and i suddenly see only the messages on the other db14:06
paor contacts14:06
paor whatever14:06
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tabaskohmm, it is already save to user rzr-repo with pr1.2 ?15:10
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MFaro-TusinoNight for me, well early morning anyway :p15:26
kozzioh well is 15 o'clock over here :D15:27
MFaro-Tusinoits 00:2615:27
MFaro-Tusinofor me i mean15:28
kozziinception mentioned on one of finnish pc-magazine15:28
kozzion their website I mean15:28
tabaskoand on engadget :)15:30
MFaro-TusinoI also posted it to MyNokiaBlog15:30
tabaskoI just installed it as well, tought not yet any real use :P15:31
MFaro-TusinoIt is good to have man15:32
MFaro-TusinoI am getting 1.2 sources soon hopefully, nokia emailled me this week for address so maybe then I can find a good implementation for my battery widget i have been working on15:33
MFaro-Tusinowith inception, we can essentially make custom rome :p15:33
tabaskoand that would be neat :)15:33
tabaskoor will15:33
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MFaro-TusinoI also want to see if we can supercedd the home screens too, and add the memo style, or maemo style, just as an example15:35
MFaro-Tusinoof course, the possibilities could be endless15:35
MFaro-TusinoThis has a good list of ideas
jonnias most of the system/ui stuff is not open sourced, its quite unlikely to happen.15:39
MFaro-Tusinoits nice to try though15:40
jonnikernel modules ues, mounting yes, aegis disable possible but it criples lot of sw so in reality no.15:40
MFaro-TusinoI am looking to see apps finally be able to run freely without aegis15:41
MFaro-Tusinoobviously it is good, as it stops some things from messing system15:41
jonnicssu quite unlikely unless future updates have the same hole.15:41
kozzianyone tried this ?15:41
MFaro-Tusinono, sorry man15:43
tabaskoues=yes False15:43
jonnitabasko: what is false about it?15:44
kozziit would be damn cool to be able to continue playback from media apps though dlna15:44
phakokozzi: me15:44
kozzihow does it work ?15:44
phakoquite well, but I know what you shouldn't do since I wrote it15:45
phakooh, you mean the upper part15:45
phakodidn't try that15:45
phakosomeone needs to build the plugin15:45
kozziphako: I mean can you ie. transfer the sound from music app to dlna capable device ?15:46
phakokozzi: using what?15:46
jonnikozzi: pr1.2 has dlna builtin, you dont need to use any scripts15:47
phakokozzi: that page has two topics unfortunately15:47
kozziI mean this function, but instead of using bluetooth we use dlna/wifi instead15:48
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kozziyou know, come home, tap your phone on an rfid card and the music playback continue though home stereo which is plugged into the computer15:48
phakokozzi: no15:49
kozziphako: oh :(15:49
phakowhy would you even need dlna for that, NFC would do the "discovery" part15:50
phakoor RFID15:50
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kozziI hope this will be developed further though15:50
kozziphako: is just an example, what I have in mind is15:50
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kozziphako: come home unplug your headphone and the notification will pop up and ask if you want to scan network for dlna capable device to cstart sctreaming15:51
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kozzino need of rfid/nfc15:52
phakoyeah, well. might be doable.15:54
kozziHelium+default player+magic might do :)15:55
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MFaro-TusinoE-Yes: Hows the progress?15:56
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gabriel9|workanyone used phone gap16:22
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gabriel9|workis that some browser app?16:22
gabriel9|workor native?16:22
MFaro-Tusinowhat is it? link?16:22
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harbaumWhich library is glGenFramebuffersOES in? I find the prototypes in GLES/glext.h, but no library to link against ....16:31
harbaumI have this problem in harmattan as well as maemo516:31
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painception made it to engadget17:06
alteregoYeah, saw that this morning.17:07
GeneralAntillesThey called it a root.17:09
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npm -- the "glad to see you" handset17:24
npmnokia ought to make a double-sided N9 w/ a lumia on the other side, just to make stephen happy17:26
npmalthough it is not as protective as the above "travel case"17:26
harbaumAnd the best thing: I am sure no money was spent building this device :-)17:27
npmyep, totally recycled, including the ca. 1982 original IBM PC keyboard :-)17:27
harbaumOk, the case probably wasn't free ...17:27
npmit was, the glasses it came with are long broken17:28
npmi have a smaller case like that for the n95017:28
npmfits perfectly. just "doh'd" it the other day onto concrete w/ noproblems17:29
harbaumWhat happens if you close the case? Like the thunder dome? "Two phones enter,one phone sleaves"17:29
npmi put a soft cloth between them for cleaning and protection17:30
npmlike beta fish in an aquarium17:30
befordgabriel9|work, there is work in progress to port phonegap to Qt5 and harmattan, but its not just for webbrowser apps, they use some layer to access phone components like gps,17:30
npmexcept they swim in the dark under 5 ft of ice...17:31
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javispedroharbaum: ping17:37
javispedrouh, damn.17:37
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RST38hmoo javispedro17:39
Sazpaimon_this is why unicode was invented17:47
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KhertanHi all !17:55
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Khertanlbt X-Fade, i ve a question for you about the community obs, i 'm trying to build an package but while building looks like ok, it doesn't seems to moved in the repository :
Khertanany idea ?17:58
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KhertanrZr: maybe you have a little idea as the packaging fool of the community ? :)18:03
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itsnotabigtruckwoot woot18:34
itsnotabigtruck < this is just lol18:39
itsnotabigtruck(apparently inception magically stops 'the lag', somehow :p)18:40
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pawhat lag?18:46
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itsnotabigtruckpa: haven't had it on my end either18:47
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itsnotabigtrucksome people say their N9s are laggy after upgrading to 1.218:47
itsnotabigtruckbut inception couldn't possibly affect that...18:47
pait seemed a tiny bit less smooth than 1.1, but hard to perceive18:48
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itsnotabigtruckinception downloads are up to about 400 now, it looks like the engadget coverage didn't cause anything to skyrocket :p they did write a good description of it though18:49
pawell they wrote something like "you cant upgrade if you do this"18:50
pawhich might have stopped people18:50
paand also, most of people (including me) would do only if needed18:50
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paatm i dont need it, so i prefer not to aegisbreak18:50
RST38hitsnotabigtruck: 1.2 seems to have introduced some package manager daemon or something18:50
RST38hKeeps apt locked18:51
itsnotabigtruckright, and the "can't upgrade" part is merely - the next version might have some weird countermeasure and you should wait and see18:51
itsnotabigtruckRST38h: i don't think that's anything new18:51
itsnotabigtruckhad plenty of trouble with that on 1.118:51
itsnotabigtruckTronic: :O awesome18:52
itsnotabigtruckthere's a 'crater lake' in the phillippines? hm18:53
npmitsnotabigtruck: looks cool. no time to install yet. when someone says they got standard 2ch/48k USB audio working as integrated audio device... then i'll jump :-)18:53
npmaka digital audio out for N9 w/o bluetooth18:54
npmcongrats on the nice hax18:55
pait would be cool to enable usb host too, then i'll do it :)18:57
itsnotabigtrucklooks like phonearena posted something
itsnotabigtruckclose to everything else i'm finding is some seo-spam website that lifts articles from gsmarena or engadget18:58
pabtw isnt it funny that my N9 passed from 16% to 4% of battery? just like this..18:59
itsnotabigtruckwelcome to the n9's funky battery percentage indicator :p18:59
itsnotabigtrucki hear the n900 was like that too18:59
pabut isnt it possible to do something like cat /proc/acpi/battery/blabla, that should report the remaining mah?19:00
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paor .. maybe there's no acpi19:00
itsnotabigtruckpa: possibly...most of the battery stuff is in a usermode component given the oh-so-exciting name of 'battery management entity'19:01
itsnotabigtrucki think you can access the info via dbus19:01
hiemanshuitsnotabigtruck: care to give a TL;DR version of what Inception does19:04
tehdelyit exploits a privilege escalation vulnerability in aegis to install a new trusted origin for packages that blesses them with full privileges, and the tool necessary to sign and install those packages19:05
tehdelythat's my executive summary just from reading the code :P19:05
Corsacitsnotabigtruck: btw I wanted to ask about the script called in the chroot19:05
sahibkhadaffiI was curious about that perl script as well...19:06
hiemanshutehdely: ah ok19:06
Corsacit looks like a nice trick to run some graphical stuff as root inside a chroot a trigger the execution of the inpayload.sh19:07
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tehdelythe only reason he uses is that it has the right privileges, and runs perl19:17
tehdelyno actual code from within ever gets executed :)19:17
javispedroit's just another of the many glaring aegis holes19:17
tehdelylet's just say: this is the reason most UNIXes don't respect a suid bit on scripts19:18
tehdelythat's the equivalent of what aegis is doing here19:18
tehdelyand he exploits it19:18
javispedrotehdely, well I have to say the way they fixed the pr1.1 one wasn't exactly unixy =)19:18
tehdelyi wasn't around for that19:18
qronicpa, you could run bmestat, it shows remaining mAh19:19
sahibkhadaffitehdely: okay, seems like a pretty big miss from Nokia. Then again, aegis as a whole seems rather leaky19:21
tehdelyit is what it is.  they'll fix it19:21
javispedrobut they will fix it19:21
tehdelythis is how systems become secured19:21
tehdelyyou always overlook something19:21
qronictehdely, did you find out when exactly is executed?19:21
qronicwhat exactly runs it?19:22
qronicI only see the link from it to "$NEWROOT/root/.config/user-dirs.dirs"19:22
tehdelythese two lines are the key19:22
tehdely/bin/ln '/usr/bin/xdg-user-dir' "$NEWROOT/usr/bin/perl"19:22
tehdely/bin/ln '/usr/lib/inception/' "$NEWROOT/root/.config/user-dirs.dirs"19:22
paah thanks19:23
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javispedroin any case, pr1.1's bug could be triggered with a rename; this one seems overcomplex.19:23
tehdelywhat happens is he runs /usr/lib/developer-mode/bin/devmodeapplet.pl19:23
qronictehdely, got it19:23
tehdelywhose first line is #!/usr/bin/perl19:23
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tehdelyexcept in his chroot, /usr/bin/perl is actually the script in /usr/bin/xdg-user-dir19:23
tehdelywhich has this line:19:23
tehdelytest -f ${XDG_CONFIG_HOME:-~/.config}/user-dirs.dirs && . ${XDG_CONFIG_HOME:-~/.config}/user-dirs.dirs19:23
qronicso this runs with tcb token then?19:24
tehdelyit's sourcing user-dirs.dirs19:24
tehdelyso he replaces user-dirs.dirs with his payload19:24
tehdelyand it gets sourced, as a shell script, by another shell script, which is in turn being run by, which has tcb token19:24
paqronic, even tho the results appear to be weird.. it says current capacity 57 and current "89" O_o19:24
pai think there are some problems with it.. :)19:25
pa(software, not phone)19:25
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qronicjavispedro, could you describe the PR1.1's bug with rename that was fixed? Seems like now it's no secret19:26
qronicfor nokia19:26
javispedroit is not fixed, it's just made harder19:27
tehdelythe bug in pr1.2 is that aegis isn't verifying interpreters for scripts19:27
tehdelybecause, in the chroot, /usr/bin/perl is actually a shell script, and it happily executes it in its stead19:27
tehdelyi'm not sure how you'd solve that19:28
tehdelythe way most UNIXes solve it is by not trusting anything that uses an interpreter19:28
javispedroaegis is veryfing interpreters19:28
tehdelybut that's not going to work ehre19:28
javispedrothis is a classical bug that was raised many times in the apparmor vs selinux discussions19:28
tehdelymaybe you'll have to specify an inode in your shebang19:28
javispedroaka inode vs pathname19:28
javispedrothe way it was fixed in pr1.1, one could say that it brought the worst parts of both worlds19:28
tehdelymaybe you need a refchecklist of interpreters19:29
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itsnotabigtruckover nine thousand views on TMO19:53
itsnotabigtruckcoming up to 500 downloads on my site :p19:53
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itsnotabigtruckwhoops, actually i'm verging on 80019:56
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itsnotabigtruckbtw in case anyone wasn't aware, there's now PR1.2 firmware versions for several of the country variants20:53
patoo late :)20:54
pagot 001 :p20:54
itsnotabigtruckdenmark, sweden, vietnam, branded - telenor mobil [norway], branded - 3 [sweden]20:54
itsnotabigtruckalso softpedia published an article about INCEPTION, but claimed it doesn't work with pr1.2 :(20:55
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itsnotabigtruck @ everyone - please seed21:01
itsnotabigtruck(no, it's not a pirated movie, it's the PR1.2 source DVD from nokia)21:01
itsnotabigtruckif any of you have already downloaded it from javis/doc's servers, it should be possible to put it in a folder and point your torrent client at it21:02
itsnotabigtruckpa ^21:02
itsnotabigtrucktehdely ^21:03
itsnotabigtrucki can't seed as i'm behind a NAT :(21:03
RST38h"It turns out that the even the server space given from Sabu to anarchaos store the details of 30,000 credit cards (from the Stratfor hack) had been funded by the FBI."21:05
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pai can do21:18
pathats the full source code???21:20
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pawith source for the ui and stuff?21:21
paitsnotabigtruck, can you confirm?21:22
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itsnotabigtruckpa: er, no21:26
itsnotabigtruckit's just the open source code that nokia delivered21:27
itsnotabigtrucksorry for getting your hopes up with ambiguity :(21:27
paah i see.. :)21:28
itsnotabigtruckyou can get the same file (the iso image) at one of those links21:29
itsnotabigtruckmight help with seeding - download quickly over http, then copy into your torrent client21:29
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ZogG_N9ovi client is not connecting, ovi problem or on my side?21:33
ZogG_N9 ovi client is not connecting, ovi problem or on my side?21:34
itsnotabigtruckZogG_N9: well, ovi worked fine for me 10 mins ago21:35
SazpaimonZogG_N9, its not just you21:35
Sazpaimoni just tried it now21:35
Sazpaimonim getting an error message21:35
pais there some QtContact example on the sdk?21:36
pameaning an example of handling contacts (adding/deleting)21:36
ZogG_N9Sazpaimon, with retry button right?21:36
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djszapimmm, no jreznik in here..21:36
ZogG_N9does anyone remember who wrote fingerterm?21:37
SazpaimonZogG_N9, yeah same screen21:37
Sazpaimonoh wait21:37
Sazpaimonwebsite says "Heikki Holstila"21:38
ZogG_N9 Sazpaimon, the screen of fail21:38
ZogG_N9what does that mean?21:38
ZogG_N9happy hannukah?21:38
ZogG_N9Sazpaimon, fingerterm is at ovi?21:39
Sazpaimonon the link i jsut pasted21:39
ZogG_N9want it in apps for meego21:39
ZogG_N9the coder was here21:40
Sazpaimonwell the email is heikki.holstila@gmail.com21:40
ZogG_N9mail sent21:41
ZogG_N9frals, are you back?21:41
itsnotabigtruckdoes opera for N9 load netscape plugins? if so, any idea if flash is compatible with it?21:41
itsnotabigtruckalso just confirmed that works in firefox :D21:42
ZogG_N9i have 2 operas on n921:42
ZogG_N9one i cant delete21:42
SazpaimonWhen is N9 going to get shockwave player21:43
Sazpaimonthis is a travesty21:43
ZogG_N9when flash will die already?21:43
Sazpaimonflash != shockwave21:43
Sazpaimonsilly goose21:43
fralsZogG_N9: yes21:44
ZogG_N9frals, \o/21:44
ZogG_N9frals, i want to bug you in private, may i?21:44
itsnotabigtrucklol shockwave21:45
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fralsgo ahead21:45
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ZogG_N9still will be here in 15 mins?21:45
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fralsno guarantees, about to head to bed to sort my jetlag21:46
SazpaimonTHIS IS AN OUTRAGE21:46
Sazpaimonalso, little known fact21:47
itsnotabigtruckso firefox seems pretty fast *except* for anything related to the UI - is this the slowness that's supposedly better in the new versions?21:47
Sazpaimonharmattan's vkb dictionary has words for "MySQL" and "PostgreSQL"21:47
Sazpaimoni was surprised to see that21:48
Sazpaimonseriously, try it21:48
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pabut did i understood wrong, or video-suite is mplayer based?21:55
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paunderstand, soryr21:55
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gabriel9damn it i need keyboard so i can use my phone as IDE :)22:16
faenilgabriel9, it would be too slow in compiling :)22:17
gabriel9i can sit and watch women's while it compile :)22:17
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gabriel9damn you nokia i could have so nice life: compiling and watching nice ladies :=)22:18
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gabriel9i'm sorry, i am little pissed22:19
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gabriel9i7 processors are really nice22:20
gabriel9i'm running Archlinux and two virtual machines(Centos server and Win7 client) and coding in Netbeans22:21
gabriel9and there is no slowing22:21
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ZogG_laptopfaenil: i used gentoo from pentium D FTW22:29
ZogG_laptopeven pentium 422:29
faenilPentium 4 isn't much like Cortex A8 :D22:29
ZogG_laptoppentium ®22:29
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gabriel9in my country all want pentium22:31
gabriel9i said to my uncle you need to buy core 2 duo and he asks me:"What pentium is that"22:32
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ZogG_laptoppentium over ninethousand22:32
gabriel9acta is comming to my country :(22:32
ZogG_laptopgabriel9: next time tell him it's about 108622:33
gabriel9i will22:33
ZogG_laptophmm manage bookmarks app from nokia?22:34
ZogG_laptopovi store22:34
ZogG_laptopit's not for browser on n9 i understand22:34
ZogG_laptopbut to sync22:34
ZogG_laptoplol flip a coin by nokia22:35
ZogG_laptopfor 2 euro22:35
gabriel9do they know we can do that in reality?22:36
ZogG_laptopnot after you pay for those kinda apps22:36
gabriel9i bet there is app: Kiss a girl22:36
gabriel9and your gf will have it also and we can kiss all day for 4 €22:37
kozzilink for that bookmark app ?22:38
ZogG_laptoplaunching bookmarks22:38
ZogG_laptopwhatis better google/ readitlater or diigo?22:38
kozzioh this ?22:38
gabriel9i did not use any of them22:39
gabriel9kozzi it is that one22:39
ZogG_laptopset chromium extention22:47
ZogG_laptopand now gonna try it22:47
gabriel9is it working?22:50
ZogG_N9extention is not =)22:52
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gabriel9heh, i will code it :)22:52
gabriel9i just finished some extensions for my job22:53
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ZogG_N9api is there22:55
danielcbitHi Everybody. Does some one know how to use the same ToolBarLayout qml code for symbian and Meego?22:55
danielcbitRegarding the ToolButton / TooIcon elements22:55
RST38hBTW how do I transfer contacts from Symbian to N9???22:57
RST38hShort of using BT?22:57
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sahibkhadaffidanielcbit: it's currently not possible to share the themed toolbar between symbian/maemo, as far as I know at any rate22:58
sahibkhadaffibetter off implementing your own22:59
danielcbitsahibkhadaffi: I found that ToolButton element is recongnize in both platforms, but the iconSource doesn't work on meego with "toolbar-menu"23:00
danielcbitor other icon names23:00
sahibkhadaffithey use different themes in the backend, and the implementation differs IIRC23:01
sahibkhadaffiqt - code once, #ifdef everywhere ;)23:01
danielcbitcan't even pass full uri ? Like images://themes/XXXXX23:02
sahibkhadaffibetter try - I know I looked in to it a while back for a project, but decided to just target harmattan instead as it'd involve too much hassle to make the crossover to symbian smooth... things might've changed since though23:03
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sahibkhadaffiare you using the toolbar element from QtQuick?23:04
danielcbitsahibkhadaffi: I was trying to do this way but I didn't manage to find correct uri for meego.23:04
danielcbitsahibkhadaffi: Yes23:05
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sahibkhadaffidanielcbit: well, harmattan apps defaults to meego-touch, while a different solution is in use on symbian. There is probably somebody else here who successfully made a viable solution23:11
danielcbitsahibkhadaffi: OK, Thanks. I'll figure something out.23:13
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CissWitany of you has used emumaster with sixaxis support ? I can't use any bluetooth anymore now, even after reboot.23:38
CissWitwhen i try to go on the bluetooth menu from the parameters, it just doest nothing for sometimes23:41
CissWitand when the bluetooth menu finally appears, and that i try to turn on bluetooth, it just does nothing23:41
CissWitif any of you has any hint with this bluetooth problem, he's welcome :)23:42
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MohammadAGitsnotabigtruck, inception works with N950's PR1.2 right?23:58
faenilI'm interested too23:59
faenilbut I guess and hope it does23:59

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