| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: sorry, was out for lunch | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| itsnotabigtruck | prosody | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or ejabberd, but prosody is newer and lighter | 00:03 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: i'm already using openfire, and only to gateway the messages | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | don't use openfire, it's no longer maintained | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it has some severe bugs that probably won't ever be fixed | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also it has a lot of bulk (like the web admin interface) that you don't really need | 00:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i have to admit, openfire's web interface is really nifty, but it's also dead weight | 00:04 |
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| rZr | djszapi: back | 00:07 |
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| RzR | djszapi: so you want a app section into home:rzr:harmattan:apps ? | 00:08 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://apps.javispedro.com/nit/hicg/ | 00:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | is there anything like ^ that accepts something other than an SVG as input? | 00:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i need to do an icon for which no svg exists | 00:23 |
| ieatlint | i recall there being photoshop icon templates released by nokia to help you do the harmattan styling | 00:25 |
| aquarius | Not sure if this is the right place to ask this. I've recently acquired an N9, which I rather like, but there are a couple of browser issues: primarily that the browser's a bit slow sometimes, and that it doesn't support HTML5 audio. Are these things likely to be resolved by harmattan? | 00:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: i'm hardly a graphics pro though and i don't have PS installed right now | 00:26 |
| ieatlint | i used gimp | 00:26 |
| ieatlint | it worked well enough with the ps templates | 00:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aquarius: for html5 audio...i think that might be in pr1.2 (??) | 00:27 |
| ieatlint | was mostly just icon sizing, and then creating the rounded rect with the proper shading gradient | 00:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for the slowness i doubt that's going away | 00:27 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | i think i'm going to skip harmattanizing the icon for now | 00:27 |
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| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: so how do calls on xmpp work? | 00:27 |
| ieatlint | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Resources/Library/Design_and_UX/designing-for-nokia-platforms/designing-for-meego-12-harmattan/meego-launcher-icon-templates.html | 00:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i just need to do the necessary stuff to bind the desktop icon to the app uninstaller | 00:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: jingle | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which is an a/v layer for jabber | 00:28 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: how does it work on the N9? how does it work on android? | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (xmpp) | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no idea about android | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | with n9, you can make a call from your contacts list | 00:28 |
| aquarius | itsnotabigtruck, that's helpful, thanks! I could test that, perhaps...? | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | however, i'm not sure you can actually perform a call yet from N9 with a server that isn't gtalk | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i've been meaning to write the gui layer to do that, but haven't yet | 00:28 |
| bindi | aahhh how can calls and messages in the same application be so hard | 00:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (and nokia should have done it in the first place *grumble grumble grumble*) | 00:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aquarius: supposedly pr1.2 is coming out next week | 00:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | of course everyone associated with nokia refuses to say anything | 00:29 |
| aquarius | :) | 00:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | don't quote me on the html5 audio, i'm not sure | 00:30 |
| ieatlint | rumours say n9 pr1.2 is coming out 2/29 | 00:30 |
| ieatlint | but totally unconfirmed | 00:30 |
| aquarius | is there OTA upgrade? | 00:30 |
| aquarius | I'm really starting to like this N9, so I'd like to do some development for it. : | 00:30 |
| aquarius | :) | 00:30 |
| ieatlint | aquarius: ota, yes... but based on past experiences, backup everything off the device before doing it | 00:31 |
| aquarius | ooh. there's the voice of someone who was burned last time :) I'll bear that in mind! | 00:31 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: it seems that newer versions of asterisk support simple - i'm gonna try it | 00:31 |
| aquarius | at the moment I'm vacillating between my nexus S and the N9, because I'm too chicken to cut down my SIM to a microsim :) | 00:32 |
| ieatlint | aquarius: in the 1.0 to 1.1 upgrade, a LOT of people were burned | 00:32 |
| Jare | i hope they have fixed some annoying bugs in the contacts app | 00:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aquarius: i'd recommend reflashing the phone instead of using the ota upgrade | 00:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | latter is too risky | 00:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though the former will nuke all your apps | 00:34 |
| aquarius | so ota might do something worse than removing apps? like, say, bricking the phone? | 00:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bricking the phone, no...even if that happened it would be recoverable | 00:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but typical issues have been only parts of the system being upgraded, or arbitrary stuff breaking | 00:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: prosody is sooooo much better than asterisk :p but ok | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | make sure to use SSL on your server | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in fact, enforce the use of ssl on your server | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | get a free ssl certificate at https://www.startssl.com/ | 00:37 |
| aquarius | itsnotabigtruck, ah, right. Still a bit worrying. I appreciate the warning :) | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | can someone point me to how to link the .desktop file to the app so it can be uninstalled from the home screen? | 00:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the low level harmattan documentation is really awful...it seems like there's a general implicit assumption that you won't be poking around in the bits of stuff because qt creator automates everything | 00:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ah, it's http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Reference_documentation_Harmattan_Appendix_to_the_Debian_Policy_Manual.html | 00:40 |
| Jare | now why would someone compare asterisk to an xmpp server | 00:40 |
| Jare | bindi: i would recommend trying Freeswitch. It's a much fresher platform than Asterisk | 00:41 |
| bindi | does it support SIMPLE? | 00:42 |
| Jare | yes | 00:42 |
| bindi | (already building asterisk) | 00:42 |
| bindi | if this goes poop, i'll try it | 00:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jare: freeswitch is bloody gigantic and breaks every rule in the book when it comes to proper packageable software | 00:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the only way to run it is out of a folder in /opt full of hacked-up library dependencies | 00:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that said, asterisk is terrible too | 00:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also bindi: can't you load your distro's package? | 00:44 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: way old version there | 00:45 |
| Jare | well if you're in a need of an xmpp server then freeswitch or asterisk isn't definitely your choice | 00:45 |
| bindi | no, i don't need that | 00:46 |
| Jare | if you need a solid voip server, then i would recommend freeswitch | 00:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Jare: s/he is comparing them because both do both text and voice | 00:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | except that voice is a second class citizen on xmpp and text is a second class citizen on sip | 00:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but if you need both and want just one system, then you have to choose | 00:47 |
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| Jare | mmkay, I'm using Openfire for xmpp and Freeswitch for sip. Voice features in xmpp servers don't meet my requirements and chat features in sip servers are lacking features too | 00:54 |
| Jare | and I hate the fact that telepathy sofiasip doesn't support presence on the N9 | 00:55 |
| Jare | even though sofia sip stack does support it | 00:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jare: hmm...might it be possible to swap out telepathy-sofiasip for one that does? | 00:57 |
| bindi | Jare: freeswitch configuration, how hard is it? | 00:58 |
| bindi | i'm stuck at asterisk not working with my old configuration files, and they're giving me a huge book to read which is a suicide | 00:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: prosody, doooo eeeetttttt | 00:58 |
| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: but prosody haz no SIMPLE | 00:59 |
| bindi | i've got an application for android here that does calling and messaging with sip and simple | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | erm, of course not, it's an xmpp server... | 00:59 |
| bindi | yes | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then change apps | 00:59 |
| bindi | don't have any voice apps for android | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there is absolutely no reason to use simple, ever | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's garbage | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's been obsoletefor close to a decade | 00:59 |
| bindi | yeah well all i care about is getting this to work :p | 01:00 |
| bindi | Jare: do you use simple with freeswitch? | 01:01 |
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| Jare | bindi: freeswitch uses xml in the configuration files and if you don't like configuring them manually you can use a web gui like bluebox. Btw. bluebox works with Asterisk too | 01:04 |
| bindi | i don't like reading heavy documentation | 01:05 |
| bindi | old config nolonger works | 01:05 |
| bindi | Unable to create channel of type 'SIP' (cause 20 - Unknown) | 01:05 |
| * bindi kills self | 01:05 | |
| Jare | :D | 01:05 |
| bindi | or maybe it does | 01:06 |
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| Jare | well both systems are designed for big implementations, so the complexness kinda comes with it | 01:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | doesn't bluebox involve giving some website root access to your server to instal it? | 01:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no thanks | 01:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm sticking with my recommendation of using xmpp and prosody because it's orders of magnitude lighter than this voip software you're trying to load | 01:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the voip industry hasn't had its heads on straight for a long time | 01:08 |
| Sazpaimon | so last week i bought a server from 1and1 to replace my older 1and1 server thats now being sold for less | 01:08 |
| Jare | umm no? It's a bunch of php(?) scripts that you install on your webserver | 01:08 |
| Sazpaimon | i call to ask what the problem is | 01:09 |
| Sazpaimon | and they tell me that last friday they got their last eqipment shipment and already exhausted it | 01:09 |
| Sazpaimon | and they dont have an eta on their next shipment | 01:09 |
| Sazpaimon | :( | 01:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jare: ah, i was thinking of whistle (by the same outfit) | 01:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you're supposed to enter your credentials into a "deploy" page | 01:10 |
| Jare | right, I wouldn't do that :) | 01:10 |
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| bindi | ahha it works now | 01:12 |
| bindi | was my error | 01:12 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | how do you mark additional files in the debian directory for inclusion in the debian tarball | 01:25 |
| ieatlint | you can specify that in the qt project file and it will package them | 01:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: not using qt creator... | 01:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i wasn't under the impression qt creator even *can* generate source packages | 01:29 |
| ieatlint | ah... yeah, i've always loathed packaging debs | 01:30 |
| ieatlint | actually i've basically loathed packaging in any format | 01:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: the source package thing is a real problem | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | source packages are essential for obs and being all opensource friendly in general | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but everyone is being coddled on qt creator, which requires significant finangling to produce them iirc | 01:32 |
| ieatlint | i would call it shielded vs coddled :P | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 01:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | btw the files were actually automatically included, i was looking at the wrong tar.gz | 01:33 |
| ieatlint | but yeah, i haven't touched obs for about 2 years | 01:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, at least qt creator is a step forward from dpkg -b manually created debs | 01:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like everyone did with maemo5 | 01:33 |
| ieatlint | there were helper scripts as i recall | 01:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i believe i have milkytracker almost 100% harmified | 01:34 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | argh, turns out it still isn't integrating with meegotouchhome | 01:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: any idea how meegotouchhome knows that an icon matches up with an uninstallable package? | 01:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | XB-MeeGo-Desktop-File-Name: milkytracker didn't do it | 01:37 |
| ieatlint | nope, not looked into it | 01:38 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | ugh, i'm getting really tired of pkgmgr leaving around stale dpkg lock files | 01:57 |
| * ieatlint agrees | 01:59 | |
| ieatlint | been bitten by that too much | 01:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, it looks like if you install a package via dpkg, the icon is never bound to the package | 02:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you have to use apt or pkgmgr for that | 02:06 |
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| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: make sure you're killing it before using apt | 02:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: is pkgmgr actually doing anything in that case? | 02:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what happens is that it creates the lock file after doing an operation through pkgmgr | 02:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and then never removes it, ever | 02:21 |
| djszapi | RzR: yes, harmattan:applications | 02:21 |
| djszapi | my vote is for harmatttan:applications, and not harmattan:apps | 02:22 |
| RzR | ok | 02:22 |
| RzR | i'll upload my 1st app then | 02:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh yeah, what did you guys end up deciding on | 02:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | w/r/t splitting up the repo | 02:22 |
| djszapi | beford: have you figured out the issue ? | 02:23 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: nothing special, I proposed having an applications repository as the first step | 02:23 |
| djszapi | RzR: we need to warn the people | 02:23 |
| djszapi | I will extend the summary to the middleware repo | 02:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | imo calling the utilities repo "middleware" is rather lame | 02:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that word is tainted | 02:24 |
| djszapi | RzR: please write to the forum once you created the applications repository. | 02:24 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: I do not think so since that what it is | 02:24 |
| djszapi | plus play nice and consistent with the rest of community (nemo, plasma active, mer and so forth) | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | except it's not...if i understand correctly, it's for non-graphical programs and libs | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that isn't middleware | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | middleware is a label tacked onto software that is a) boring, and b) usually costs money | 02:25 |
| djszapi | no, you misunderstood | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for example, smart cards often don't have drivers, they have "middleware" | 02:25 |
| djszapi | meh, I do not care about your ranting. | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so you have to pay for the drivers separately | 02:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or stock markets buy "message bus middleware" | 02:26 |
| djszapi | I know qt, middleware, etc is bad. | 02:26 |
| djszapi | are* | 02:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i never said qt is "bad", not everything is binary you know | 02:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm just saying here that middleware is a poisoned word | 02:27 |
| djszapi | it is your opinion, which is against about everybody else out there. | 02:27 |
| djszapi | we, nemo, mer and plasma active. | 02:27 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://www.google.com/search?q=middleware&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a | 02:28 |
| ieatlint | wait, you're criticizing the toolkit as being middleware? | 02:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | result #3: "Oracle Fusion Middleware" | 02:28 |
| ieatlint | is this one of those "i only write in assembly and draw stuff by hand to the framebuffer" things? | 02:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm not criticizing middleware, i'm criticizing use of the word middleware | 02:28 |
| RzR | ~ | 02:28 |
| RzR | djszapi: fell to edit : https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan%3Aapplications | 02:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't understand what you don't understand about words having unwanted connotation | 02:29 |
| djszapi | RzR: thanks. | 02:29 |
| RzR | i am uploading redactilo | 02:29 |
| ieatlint | i'd call qt the toolkit.. not middleware | 02:29 |
| djszapi | RzR: very cool. | 02:29 |
| RzR | but please keep existing apps | 02:29 |
| RzR | in the current shared repo | 02:29 |
| RzR | for now at least | 02:30 |
| djszapi | ieatlint: except that qt is not in the repo. | 02:30 |
| ieatlint | meh, apt is just middleware, i install everything directly ;) | 02:31 |
| djszapi | not following. | 02:32 |
| ieatlint | meh.. i'm not funny anyway | 02:33 |
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| RzR | djszapi: let's wait and see where it'll lead now | 02:34 |
| djszapi | RzR: fair enough. Write to the forum we will move the apps soon. | 02:34 |
| djszapi | in that repository only | 02:34 |
| djszapi | so it is sort of "depricating" the apps in the community repository. | 02:34 |
| djszapi | and in few weeks, we can clean up | 02:35 |
| RzR | well i dont think this is a so good idea | 02:35 |
| RzR | most pple will get confused | 02:35 |
| djszapi | about ? | 02:36 |
| RzR | too many sources | 02:36 |
| RzR | and unstable undefined policy | 02:36 |
| RzR | so now we have pple using | 02:36 |
| RzR | home:rzr:harmattan | 02:36 |
| RzR | no one switch to | 02:37 |
| RzR | home:rzr:harmattan:applications | 02:37 |
| RzR | and i feel we should put middleware into | 02:37 |
| RzR | home:rzr:harmattan:libs | 02:37 |
| djszapi | RzR: no because 1) it is more than libs 2) we should not break that too for nowe | 02:37 |
| djszapi | now* | 02:38 |
| djszapi | just one small step this time | 02:38 |
| RzR | so i would keep the crap into home:rzr:harmattan | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for names: how about: system, utils, support, tools, core | 02:38 |
| djszapi | there is no "core. | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | any one of those instead of middleware | 02:38 |
| djszapi | "core". | 02:38 |
| djszapi | that is provided by Nokia | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, then pick something else from the list | 02:38 |
| djszapi | and no, I would not personally like that many repositories | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | those are alternatives | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i.e. there would be 1 repo out fo those | 02:39 |
| * RzR feels skizo , maemo means meego, harmattan means maemo6 and shared repo is not apps4meego and apps4meego is not meego.com ..... | 02:39 | |
| djszapi | I do not think we need that for now | 02:39 |
| djszapi | maemo means meego ? | 02:39 |
| RzR | sorry i said a mistake | 02:40 |
| RzR | i wanted to say meego is maemo | 02:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://zunedevwiki.org/misc/milkytracker_0.90.85+dfsg-2+harm1_armel.deb | 02:40 |
| RzR | is it clearer now ? | 02:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | @everyone: give it a try and let me know if it works | 02:40 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: cool is it finger friendly ? | 02:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: nope :p | 02:40 |
| djszapi | RzR: I honestly dislike breaking the current community repository term | 02:40 |
| djszapi | the smallest break the better, which is harmattan:applications for now. | 02:41 |
| RzR | a4m or shared one ? | 02:41 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: i did try to use it on a android tablet , it was less usable than on n8x0 | 02:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: i'm planning on switching to the low-res 320x240 ui and resizing it to fit the N9 | 02:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, if i end up devoting any more time to this | 02:42 |
| RzR | djszapi: wanna test redaktilo ? and clone the sources ? | 02:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but right now it has these teensy 3mm tall buttons :p | 02:42 |
| djszapi | RzR: yes, but I do not have time, sorry. | 02:42 |
| RzR | djszapi: this is just a basic text editor ... can be useful someday | 02:43 |
| djszapi | RzR: I would propose four weeks for the interim period about the applications in the community repository. | 02:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also btw what do you guys recommend for version numbering on modified versions of upstream debian packages | 02:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right now i stuck a +harm1 suffix but i'm not sure if that's really kosher | 02:43 |
| RzR | I dont think i will take more time to polish it since it is usable enough for me now | 02:43 |
| djszapi | RzR: people have four weeks to add one line, if they really use apps in there for some reasons. | 02:43 |
| RzR | you're going to kill that repo :) | 02:44 |
| djszapi | what do you mean ? | 02:44 |
| RzR | i feel the users should tell us what to do | 02:44 |
| RzR | if they dont care or understand of those extra repo .. then noone will use it | 02:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why couldn't/can't we have something like extras :| | 02:46 |
| djszapi | do not understand an apps repo concept, and adding one line ? :) | 02:46 |
| djszapi | then mer, nemo and plasma active users would die out :D | 02:46 |
| RzR | mer users and n9 users may differ too | 02:46 |
| djszapi | I am sorry, but I cannot accept it. | 02:46 |
| RzR | start a survey and let them decide | 02:47 |
| djszapi | if we have users not "understanding" one liner addition, that is very sad, whereas I do not think that is the situation. | 02:47 |
| RzR | i am not against your proposal | 02:47 |
| djszapi | okay, I will write the proposal soon. | 02:47 |
| djszapi | to the forum. | 02:47 |
| RzR | this is a good start yes | 02:48 |
| djszapi | though, not not tmo because I dislike that trollish site. | 02:48 |
| RzR | f.m.o then ? | 02:48 |
| djszapi | I would prefer that, yes. | 02:48 |
| RzR | no problem i'll send the link on tmo | 02:49 |
| RzR | this project is kinda weird sometimes ... | 02:49 |
| djszapi | why are you so negative ? | 02:49 |
| RzR | i am not | 02:49 |
| RzR | there is so much fragmantation | 02:50 |
| RzR | 2 forums | 02:50 |
| RzR | 2 supported repo | 02:50 |
| RzR | and ours | 02:50 |
| djszapi | 2 supported repo ? | 02:50 |
| djszapi | what do you mean ? | 02:50 |
| RzR | ovi and a4m | 02:50 |
| djszapi | a4m is not supported by Nokia | 02:50 |
| RzR | yes i know | 02:51 |
| djszapi | also, I understand people why they moved out of the tmo site. | 02:51 |
| djszapi | many people dislike that site (including me). | 02:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | heh, i was 4 shells deep just now | 02:51 |
| RzR | but i fell there is some redundancy ... | 02:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: well, it's authorized by a nokia package - not supported by nokia, but approved by nokia | 02:52 |
| RzR | actually i prefer tmo to fmo , because i fell that tmo may be more future proof | 02:52 |
| djszapi | RzR: I disagree | 02:52 |
| djszapi | especially because the wiki page is already on meego. | 02:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and FMO is more or less kaputt, and could disappear when lifo/nokia/intel get sufficiently bored with meego | 02:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | TMO is still quite active and probably isn't going anywhere | 02:52 |
| djszapi | rzr: so if any, I feel tmo the reason of the "fragmentation". | 02:53 |
| RzR | could be | 02:53 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: i agrea w/ u . so i am installing that tracker on n950 | 02:53 |
| djszapi | RzR: and I second Stskeep's opinion about it, really. | 02:53 |
| RzR | i trust him too | 02:54 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: try again | 02:54 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: this icon is nice but does nothing on click :) | 02:55 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: that is just silly saying | 02:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: hmmm | 02:55 |
| RzR | error | 02:55 |
| djszapi | meego is for the linux foundation, not Nokia/Intel, and lifo (what?) | 02:55 |
| RzR | i needed to reinstall sdl :) | 02:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: run /opt/milkytracker/milkytracker from a shell | 02:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh ok | 02:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | use pkgmgr install-file -f, that takes care of dependencies and the icon-package association | 02:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: linux foundation = lifo | 02:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the point is, meego is even more dead than harmattan is | 02:56 |
| djszapi | so the thing is that it is already a community thing, not company. | 02:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | neither intel or nokia have any intention to use straight meego | 02:56 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: the term is not. | 02:56 |
| djszapi | actually apps4meego has quite prospereous future. | 02:57 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: using n950 hw kb is ok | 02:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and intel and nokia control the website, plus lifo sorta (but they're mostly just acting as a proxy) | 02:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: cool :) | 02:57 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: ... and takes a little effort to clone the sites, and actually some people probably already did ? | 02:57 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: were you at the tizen fosdem prez of DF ? | 02:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: i wasn't at fosdem, so no | 02:58 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: also, it is highly unlike a big company like Nokia or Intel would close it (especially) without warning | 02:58 |
| RzR | djszapi: sorry | 02:58 |
| djszapi | RzR: no | 02:59 |
| RzR | If i understood well, it looked that those corps dislike throwing their money away into dead communities... | 02:59 |
| djszapi | I did not even take the free tizen t-shirt. | 02:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's lots of examples of big companies shutting down community websites with no notice at all | 02:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or with a few days warning | 02:59 |
| djszapi | that would be plain silly. | 02:59 |
| djszapi | and bad reputation for Nokia or Intel. | 03:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you wake up one day and the link redirects to the company website, or a "the forum has been shut down, go buy all our playsets and toys" or whatever | 03:00 |
| djszapi | so I do not think they "can" do it. | 03:00 |
| djszapi | and as I said, some people already cloned it anyway | 03:00 |
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| RzR | anyway i wish we'll be able to use obs for side projects too | 03:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | btw what's the most proper way to insert the aegis manifest from debian/rules | 03:01 |
| djszapi | I do not know how this closing is any relevanty... | 03:01 |
| djszapi | tmo can be closed even earlier... | 03:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | since it doesn't work automatically on OBS | 03:01 |
| djszapi | since it is not company driven | 03:01 |
| djszapi | so it is not their purpose to not get bad reputation | 03:01 |
| djszapi | so imho, meego is even safer in this sense. | 03:01 |
| djszapi | especially because maemo was dead earlier than meego | 03:02 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: can u package an sample .mod into milky.deb ? | 03:02 |
| djszapi | and as I said: "tmo" is very trollish. | 03:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: just unzip something from http://modarchive.org/ | 03:03 |
| RzR | this is the price of freedom | 03:03 |
| djszapi | many people feel like avoiding that tone happening in there (including me). | 03:03 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: i am unziping mine :) | 03:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i did find the audio to be a bit stuttery...if you have any ideas on how to resolve that i'm all ears | 03:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem seems to be really high cpu usage | 03:03 |
| djszapi | so arguing about meego being that is a very weak argument since maemo was even earlier dead. | 03:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | pulseaudio, the kernel, and milkytracker each take a big chunk of cpu time | 03:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: but maemo being dead doesn't have anything to do with maemo.org being dead | 03:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | both of them have x-factors | 03:04 |
| djszapi | yes, it has. | 03:05 |
| djszapi | the author thinks one day it is cool to close, it is gone | 03:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i'm basing my opinion on that i think it's less likely that the owners of maemo.org will get bored and shut it down | 03:05 |
| djszapi | and since it is not driven by big company, bad reputation is not a problem | 03:05 |
| djszapi | so it is even less safe | 03:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | than it is that intel/nokia/lifo will take the final steps to terminate meego | 03:05 |
| djszapi | so you just remind me, meego is the way of going | 03:05 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: it's loading but silent | 03:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | besides, harmattan is much more maemo than meego, despite the name | 03:06 |
| RzR | no its ok | 03:06 |
| RzR | great | 03:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for all intents and purposes it's maemo 6 | 03:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | harmattan stuff isn't really very welcome in meegoland | 03:06 |
| djszapi | this is very weak arguing | 03:06 |
| djszapi | especially because it is called meego | 03:06 |
| djszapi | does not matter what is in the background | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's called meego, but it is maemo | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what something is called has very little to do with anything | 03:07 |
| djszapi | plus apps4meego already uses it, so does meego community obs and so on. | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | marketing departments aren't governed by logic :p | 03:07 |
| djszapi | you do not get the point | 03:07 |
| djszapi | it is not about marketing. | 03:07 |
| djszapi | it is about clear consistency. | 03:07 |
| djszapi | and it seems apps4meego, meego community obs, meego forum etc happened to be created by the community. | 03:08 |
| djszapi | and honestly: tmo is something I would not follow | 03:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | harmattan = direct successor to maemo5, used to be called maemo6, produced by the same company as maemo5 | 03:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | meego = has almost no commonality with either harmattan or maemo5 | 03:08 |
| djszapi | I think I know the details much better than you :) | 03:08 |
| djszapi | but you are just hijacking | 03:08 |
| djszapi | not concentrating to the point, so I leave you with this feeling. :D | 03:09 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: i was able to load that .xm track http://rzr.online.fr/docs/rzr-media/RzR-2007-not_a_dead_punk.xm | 03:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm sure you do, which is why i find your positions so strange | 03:09 |
| RzR | but djszapi is somehow in truth | 03:09 |
| djszapi | two is a trollish site | 03:09 |
| djszapi | many people like | 03:09 |
| djszapi | dislike* | 03:09 |
| RzR | because if noone use meego.com they will shut it down | 03:09 |
| djszapi | even "known" community members | 03:10 |
| djszapi | it is driven by who btw ... | 03:10 |
| djszapi | I do not even know | 03:10 |
| RzR | so it makes sense to keep both project/communities alive | 03:10 |
| RzR | but i fear it will cause a division effect | 03:10 |
| djszapi | wait a second: it is not "djszapi"'s truth. | 03:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bbl | 03:11 |
| djszapi | I was not starting to pick up the meego term everywhere. | 03:11 |
| djszapi | I just adopted myself what the community wanted. | 03:11 |
| djszapi | and as I said, I find tmo trollish enough to take part in there. | 03:12 |
| djszapi | not* | 03:12 |
| RzR | actually i dont care | 03:12 |
| djszapi | at least Intel and Nokia put a lot of effort to create a healthy community, and that has signs still. | 03:12 |
| RzR | healthy but a bit in coma state :) | 03:13 |
| djszapi | not really. | 03:14 |
| djszapi | many people went to mer, nemo and pa for continuing something cool | 03:14 |
| RzR | the year you died twice dont expect your next reincaranation (tizen) to be nirvana :-) | 03:14 |
| djszapi | and not back to "tmo", and that community. | 03:14 |
| djszapi | RzR: seriously, just read what Stskeeps said about the maemo bits | 03:15 |
| djszapi | I second his every word. | 03:15 |
| RzR | hey guys I know the solution !!! | 03:15 |
| RzR | lets open talk.harmattan.org | 03:15 |
| RzR | and they kill it for talk.failedcommunities.org | 03:16 |
| RzR | and then ... | 03:16 |
| RzR | well enough talk , let's get back to reality | 03:17 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: do you want me to try to build that tracker since it's working using n950 kb | 03:17 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=milkytracker&project=home%3Arzr%3Adebian it used to depend on jack | 03:18 |
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| djszapi | RzR: also, I will already put the apps I maintain into the apps repository. | 03:21 |
| RzR | which ones ? | 03:21 |
| djszapi | as I said, the ones I maintain. | 03:22 |
| RzR | ok | 03:22 |
| RzR | the kde based one I suppose | 03:22 |
| djszapi | not just, I packaged around 100 packages last summer, if not more. | 03:22 |
| RzR | cool | 03:22 |
| djszapi | and I recall there were some applications in there. | 03:22 |
| RzR | btw | 03:22 |
| RzR | i need to explain something | 03:22 |
| RzR | did u notice the propose of the 2 builders ? | 03:23 |
| djszapi | the KDE packages will be eliminated either way | 03:23 |
| djszapi | not just the applications, but also the libraries and so forth | 03:23 |
| RzR | one will depend on the core packages | 03:23 |
| RzR | and the other will depend on others repo | 03:23 |
| djszapi | I will collaborate most likely with the PA guy, but we need to discuss it in 10 days at the PA sprint. | 03:24 |
| djszapi | so I will pull out the whole KDE stack most likely from the community repository. | 03:24 |
| RzR | that's how i solved so unresolvable deps | 03:24 |
| RzR | ok i trust you about all kde subprojects since i am not using it on harmattan | 03:25 |
| RzR | but i did try aktive on a lenovo s103t | 03:25 |
| djszapi | "active". | 03:26 |
| djszapi | not you wrote more times "aktive", just felt to correct it. :) | 03:27 |
| RzR | i think you should correct the project name | 03:27 |
| RzR | you kde guys educated us to put k anywhere | 03:28 |
| RzR | now you have to deal with users :) | 03:28 |
| djszapi | not really | 03:29 |
| djszapi | actually that is a very ancient story, already | 03:29 |
| djszapi | almost nobody puts "k" into such terms | 03:29 |
| djszapi | you are 5-6 years outdated :P | 03:29 |
| RzR | my editor has a K in it :-) | 03:29 |
| djszapi | ... which was born like hell long ago ? :) | 03:30 |
| RzR | my customers are KKK party | 03:30 |
| RzR | from | 03:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: i'll upload the source package | 03:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it would be nice to have a forum dedicated to harmattan | 03:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i mean, one that's actually half decent | 03:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | problem is that it's damn near impossible to get a new forum going | 03:38 |
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| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: just reading this http://zunedevwiki.org/wiki/ | 03:47 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: do you know about serious native wp7 hacks ? | 03:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: nope, never was really that interested in WP7 | 03:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i know such hacks exist | 03:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, sort of, iirc there's been setbacks | 03:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | from my experience with openzdk i want to have nothing to do with winCE again | 03:50 |
| RzR | is there some hope we could use qt someday ? | 03:50 |
| RzR | yes I can believe you | 03:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, there's a port of qt to wince already, but it's based entirely on native winCE apis (the ones used with winmo6 etc.) | 03:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | both zune hd and wp7 have their own heavily customized frontends that don't interoperate with the native apis at all | 03:51 |
| RzR | I did have to support directshow on winmo5 IICR | 03:51 |
| djszapi | RzR: yes | 03:51 |
| djszapi | people have been working on Qt at Nokia for a quite while. | 03:51 |
| RzR | but WP7 is an other beast | 03:51 |
| RzR | I met some nokia+ms pple at some "nokia day" | 03:52 |
| RzR | there were no hope for me | 03:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | do you guys know the correct way to add the aegis manifest at the end of the build | 03:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the wiki suggests hardcoding the package name into debian/rules, that will not do :p | 03:53 |
| RzR | that nok day everything that was related to nokia was presented as "our current partner" by the ms guy | 03:54 |
| RzR | itsnotabigtruck: what privilege do you need for that app ? | 03:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: GRP::pulse-access, but that's besides the point | 03:54 |
| RzR | ok | 03:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | every app that requires asserting privileges requires manually adding the manifest to build on OBS, and i can't figure out how | 03:55 |
| RzR | do you have a debian/*.aegis file ? | 03:56 |
| djszapi | people can help more if you tell what rules you use ... | 03:56 |
| djszapi | dh or cdbs ... | 03:56 |
| djszapi | otherwise really hard to help with. | 03:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | found it, > aegis-deb-add -control debian/foo/DEBIAN/control .. debian/foo.aegis=_aegis | 03:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you have to put that immediately after dh_builddeb | 03:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i was wondering why aegis-deb-add had that funky control argument, that's why | 03:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and rzr: that only works on scratchbox builds | 03:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's ignored on OBS builds because OBS doesn't contain the harmattan version of debhelper/etc. | 03:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or something along those lines | 03:59 |
| djszapi | though, that is not the most correct line. | 03:59 |
| djszapi | but it is all documented, and there are examples (many) out there. | 04:00 |
| djszapi | RzR: http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2012-January/001727.html | 04:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: that's straight out of http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Alternative_development_environments_Platform_SDK_user_guide_Creating_a_manifest_file_manually_in_Scratchbox.html | 04:00 |
| djszapi | no | 04:01 |
| djszapi | they write "[ ! -f debian/$(notdir $@).aegis ] || aegis-deb-add -control debian/$(notdir $@)/DEBIAN/control .. debian/$(notdir $@).aegis=_aegis " line | 04:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | look a little bit further down | 04:01 |
| djszapi | but yes, it is clearly documented :) | 04:01 |
| RzR | djszapi: lets cross our finger but does it worth it ? | 04:01 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: why would I ? | 04:02 |
| djszapi | you asked for rules file entry, and that is what it should | 04:02 |
| RzR | i will try to build that qml on android now | 04:02 |
| RzR | apop | 04:02 |
| RzR | app | 04:02 |
| djszapi | RzR: worth what ? | 04:02 |
| RzR | anything related to ms | 04:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: because that's not the rules file entry mentioned in the nokia page i linked | 04:03 |
| RzR | nokia said i should get a wp7 device | 04:03 |
| djszapi | RzR: yeah, why not, if it supports qt ? | 04:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you're looking at the "debhelper.mk/autotools.mk command" part | 04:03 |
| RzR | but i never recieved it | 04:03 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: no | 04:03 |
| RzR | and i did not feel the need to ask for it :) | 04:03 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: please try to read, it is not that hard ;) | 04:03 |
| djszapi | "Add the following lines into the rules file of your application package:" | 04:03 |
| RzR | djszapi: i'll reconsider the question the say i'll a decent qt demo :) | 04:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | read the next paragraph | 04:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | don't be pedantic when you aren't sure | 04:04 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: seriously, just read | 04:04 |
| djszapi | they say add a call in general | 04:05 |
| djszapi | and they describe the exact syntax above | 04:05 |
| djszapi | I cannot believe it is that hard ... | 04:05 |
| djszapi | RzR: I saw something, but I am afraid I cannot talk about it yet. | 04:05 |
| *** RzR is now known as rZr | 04:05 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: you still haven't read the next paragraph | 04:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so stubborn... | 04:05 |
| rZr | no problem i will not torture you to get those infos | 04:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in any case, rzr: what's the proper version number suffix to use | 04:06 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: I stop helping you. | 04:06 |
| djszapi | that is what everybody did into the rules file | 04:06 |
| djszapi | what I said, in the platform | 04:06 |
| djszapi | and you even say the opposite again | 04:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: what you pasted is for CBS and autotools, only | 04:06 |
| djszapi | I am quite fed up with this attitude | 04:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *s/CBS/CDBS | 04:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | > See the corresponding instructions below based on whether you want to use the debhelper.mk/autotools.mk command, or a manually created debian/rules file for building the package. | 04:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it has two sections - one for CDBS, one for not-CDBS | 04:07 |
| rZr | itsnotabigtruck: major.minor.revision-DebianVersionIfNonePut0maemo$packageversion (i also add ~userN on quick and dirty packages) | 04:07 |
| djszapi | I do not really understand what you are talking about, but I do not care anymore either | 04:08 |
| djszapi | [ ! -f debian/$(notdir $@).aegis ] -> this is obviously not cdbs related usage. | 04:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | are you sure about the notdir part? | 04:08 |
| djszapi | also it is really hard for helping to anyone if he does not share basic information | 04:09 |
| djszapi | like what he is trying to ask for help with ... | 04:09 |
| djszapi | (as I asked in the beginning) | 04:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: 0.90.85+dfsg-2 -> 0.90.85+dfsg-2maemo1 ? | 04:10 |
| djszapi | and if it is not cdbs, it is not enough for you anyway | 04:10 |
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| rZr | looks good to me | 04:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for what it's worth, it looks like notdir *is* a make feature, not cdbs, so that does indeed work in debian/rules | 04:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so it looks like you're right in that the other version is valid (and it is more general, as it checks for the existence of the aegis file) | 04:12 |
| djszapi | when you ask for packaging help, *please* mention what packaging rules you use | 04:12 |
| djszapi | otherwise you waste everybody's time. | 04:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but at the same time, the other version isn't wrong (it just assumes the aegis file is present) | 04:12 |
| djszapi | it is not the most correct, that is all | 04:13 |
| djszapi | you can stick with less correct, for sure, but that is not my stance. | 04:13 |
| djszapi | nor platform stance apparently since everybody uses it as I said. | 04:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | my point was, you were saying "this is inferior, look at the document", and the document says "if you're using debian/rules use <fragment i just pasted>" | 04:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | now, it turns out either works | 04:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but every little thing turns into this adversarial mess, argh | 04:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway... | 04:15 |
| djszapi | please do not waste others' time | 04:15 |
| djszapi | just let others know what you try to ask for help with. | 04:15 |
| djszapi | for future reference | 04:15 |
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| * djszapi does not understand why one would run a command on a file if the file does not exist | 04:17 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: if i know the file does exist | 04:18 |
| djszapi | except that if you remove in the future etc | 04:18 |
| djszapi | plus quite inconsistent with the rest | 04:18 |
| djszapi | since that is what everybody uses. | 04:19 |
| djszapi | (even the documentation writes that exact syntax with the rules example) | 04:19 |
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| rZr | itsnotabigtruck: https://build.pub.meego.com/project/users?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan | 04:31 |
| rZr | itsnotabigtruck: https://build.pub.meego.com/project/users?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan | 04:32 |
| rZr | err | 04:32 |
| rZr | https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=milkytracker&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan | 04:32 |
| rZr | i am gone now | 04:32 |
| rZr | later | 04:32 |
| djszapi | rZr: I would personally like being notified with nominations to a maintainership. | 04:33 |
| djszapi | otherwise everybody can just get everybody into, and would go for mess. | 04:34 |
| rZr | ok | 04:35 |
| djszapi | so I propose a nomination process. | 04:35 |
| rZr | thought it would be good to not restrict to good will | 04:35 |
| rZr | btw packages can be pushed and approved | 04:35 |
| djszapi | well, it does not work like that anywhere for severalreasons. | 04:35 |
| rZr | so no need to give ownership | 04:36 |
| djszapi | and I would personally like to see packages for reviews. | 04:36 |
| djszapi | as a first step to the nomination. | 04:36 |
| rZr | well i am tired i am taking note of that | 04:36 |
| rZr | this sounds good | 04:36 |
| djszapi | because then we can assess whether someone is skilled in the area and trustworthy. | 04:36 |
| rZr | i know yes that's the risk | 04:37 |
| rZr | but at the same time , i can not handle all the review tasks can you ? | 04:37 |
| djszapi | it does not mean we need to lose the quality | 04:38 |
| djszapi | we should do what we can do, but with quality, not more than that. | 04:38 |
| rZr | the quality is for a4m | 04:38 |
| djszapi | when more people join, there is going to be more review. | 04:38 |
| djszapi | no | 04:38 |
| djszapi | I heavily disagree with that | 04:38 |
| djszapi | the community repository should also be qualified as much as possible. | 04:39 |
| djszapi | I spent huge amount of deal about cleaning up the crap in there already... | 04:39 |
| rZr | then the goal changed | 04:39 |
| djszapi | not really. | 04:39 |
| djszapi | it was always a goal to have as much quality as possible. | 04:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr: so much for being gone :p anyway, later! | 04:40 |
| rZr | i thought that was just a q&d solution just to get things done before proposing to a4m | 04:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | finally starting to have OBS figured out...with any luck it'll build on the first try | 04:40 |
| djszapi | rZr: when I proposed the idea of the community repository back then last summer | 04:41 |
| rZr | well its late | 04:41 |
| djszapi | I have never had in mind it is an unqualified repository. | 04:41 |
| djszapi | it was actually quite the opposite. | 04:41 |
| rZr | can we resume later ? | 04:41 |
| djszapi | try to make the best quality we can do, but do not miss the "get something done" as the Surround lost it. | 04:41 |
| rZr | then think about a :libs subproject | 04:41 |
| djszapi | I do not think ":libs" makes any sense | 04:42 |
| djszapi | as I said earlier. | 04:42 |
| rZr | with higher quality than what it is | 04:42 |
| rZr | i am gone | 04:42 |
| rZr | later | 04:42 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: please do not put anything against the documentation into the community repository | 04:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | first, i'm putting something into my own repository | 04:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and second, nothing is against the documentation | 04:44 |
| djszapi | it is | 04:44 |
| djszapi | and if you do that, I will not be happy in the community repository. | 04:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | third, argh, the build completely bombed out | 04:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then you should reread the documentation instead of picking arguments with everyone on this channel | 04:45 |
| djszapi | the documentation gives the exact syntax that /everybody/ uses. | 04:47 |
| djszapi | and afair, you were picky about a quite non-programmer issue, like how an icon look like ... | 04:47 |
| djszapi | not so far ago... | 04:47 |
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| djszapi | and the main point is that, one of the community repository maintainer, I dislike it, so please do not spread it with inconsistent things. | 04:50 |
| djszapi | as* | 04:50 |
| djszapi | because I will need yet another hard time once, the inconsistency arises, like many times in the past. Cleaning up is a huge job, and nobody apparently does not that apart from me in there. :/ | 04:52 |
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| Sazpaimon | why are people complaining that N9 is only getting flash 10.1 and not 11 | 05:03 |
| Sazpaimon | i see no benefit flash 11 as a run of the mill NPAPI plugin will bring to the N9 | 05:03 |
| Sazpaimon | 10.1 already has hardware based video decoding | 05:03 |
| psycho_oreos | I suppose they want the latest and greatest | 05:03 |
| Sazpaimon | all 11 really does is slightly improve it, and add support for 3D rendering over gles | 05:04 |
| Sazpaimon | I dont know about you, but Ive never played any 3D games made in flash | 05:04 |
| Sazpaimon | nor would I want to | 05:04 |
| Sazpaimon | as long as 10.1 is complied against gles, I'd be happy | 05:05 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, i tried out flash 3D on my pc a while back and it wasn't exactly blindingly fast | 05:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i can't imagine it's particularly amazing with the N9's hardware | 05:06 |
| Sazpaimon | on flash 11? | 05:06 |
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| Sazpaimon | flash 11 has better hardware support for 3D | 05:06 |
| Sazpaimon | especially on mobile, where it uses opengles 2 directly | 05:06 |
| Sazpaimon | i dont see why a developer would make 3D games in flash though | 05:06 |
| Sazpaimon | especially for mpbile | 05:07 |
| Sazpaimon | *mobile | 05:07 |
| Sazpaimon | I think after flash 10.3, adobe went completely balls in with AIR instead | 05:08 |
| Sazpaimon | balls deep i should say | 05:08 |
| Sazpaimon | balls in would be moreso though | 05:08 |
| Sazpaimon | but nobody ever goes balls in | 05:08 |
| Sazpaimon | thats just asking for trouble | 05:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the build almost completed...then it failed because zlib1g-dev wasn't installed | 05:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, at least OBS using an absolutely minimal install helps grind out these build dependency mistakes from upstream | 05:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i wonder how debian's build system works | 05:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Sazpaimon: once i get OBS to build this, load up milkytracker! | 05:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i should really stop watching the build log, a watched pot never boils | 05:18 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | make: aegis-deb-add: Command not found | 05:36 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | not another one >_> | 05:36 |
| beford | new sdk thing looks prettier | 05:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beford: hmm, should i update | 05:40 |
| beford | not sure | 05:40 |
| beford | i have not really used it yet, just started it | 05:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hmm, just noticed in navifirm: 059M182: RM-819_NAM_US_CV_VAR191237_BLACK_V1 (that's for the lumia 800) | 05:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | wonder if that means there's a us version of the 800 | 05:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the sdk connectivity tool package doesn't contain a changelog :( | 05:51 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/itsnotabigtruck/Harmattan/armel/milkytracker_0.90.85%2bdfsg-2maemo1_armel.deb | 06:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it built, yay | 06:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | only took a few millenia for it to finish :p | 06:00 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | beford: http://repo.pub.meego.com//home:/itsnotabigtruck/Harmattan/armel/ install this | 06:03 |
| beford | why | 06:05 |
| beford | you didn't want to install mine :C | 06:06 |
| beford | ok downloading | 06:06 |
| beford | xD | 06:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beford: lol | 06:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i didn't? which one is it | 06:06 |
| beford | i'm debugging it atm, i'll let you know :) | 06:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, the ovi crash thing earlier | 06:07 |
| beford | yea | 06:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, if you put it somewhere i'll try it out, though enigmatic crash bugs are never any fun | 06:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh yeah, i should load up rzr's mod file and play it | 06:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh no...the resource policy isn't working now | 06:10 |
| beford | looks like an hexeditor | 06:11 |
| beford | :3 | 06:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | haha yeah | 06:12 |
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| beford | does it sound or something? :P | 06:14 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | beford: the volume can't be adjusted, that was the problem | 06:17 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | oh, as for making it play something...grab a MOD or XM file and load it into your mydocs | 06:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then load it into milkytracker and hit play sng | 06:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://modarchive.org/ | 06:17 |
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| beford | itsnotabigtruck, .it files are supported? | 06:25 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | beford: according to the package description...except i tried to load one and it was a no go | 06:33 |
| beford | nice | 06:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beford: alright, package is now updated to 2maemo2 | 06:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it *should* have a legit resource policy file now | 06:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which means the volume buttons will work as one might expect | 06:36 |
| beford | that means | 06:36 |
| beford | aha | 06:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i had it working but forgot to fix the path after optifying | 06:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i uploaded calendarrr into OBS too, but need to import an updated libtimed-dev also :( | 06:41 |
| beford | not sure if its me or it sounds the same | 06:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beford: it does sound exactly the same | 06:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can just change the volume now | 06:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 06:43 |
| beford | lol | 06:43 |
| beford | i mean, it's not changing | 06:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hm, i wonder what 'Create as maintenance project' does | 06:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, that's strange | 06:43 |
| beford | sounds the same in 'beep' mode and in max voulume | 06:43 |
| beford | i believe | 06:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | wait, if you press the volume buttons with milkytracker focused | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | do you get the blue volume bar or the pink one | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, magenta one | 06:44 |
| beford | blue | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and you updated to 2maemo2? | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | cat /usr/share/policy/etc/syspart.conf.d/milkytracker.conf | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | make sure it says /opt/milkytracker/milkytracker | 06:44 |
| beford | i think so | 06:44 |
| beford | let me see | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also if you left it running during the update, exit it and start again | 06:44 |
| beford | i could have downloaded it and not installed | 06:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | apt-cache show milkytracker should tell you what ver you have loaded | 06:45 |
| beford | ok reinstalled let me see | 06:45 |
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| beford | yea same itsnotabigtruck | 06:46 |
| beford | Version: 0.90.85+dfsg-2maemo2 | 06:46 |
| beford | $ cat /usr/share/policy/etc/syspart.conf.d/milkytracker.conf | 06:47 |
| beford | [classify gaming] | 06:47 |
| beford | /opt/milkytracker/milkytracker | 06:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | beford: hmm | 06:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and you're sure you closed milkytracker then started it again? | 06:55 |
| beford | yea | 06:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | remember that since this app isn't exactly natrive it'll do things like linger around after you close it with a popup box | 06:55 |
| beford | unless its running when I close it | 06:55 |
| beford | killall -9 milkytracker ? | 06:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you had a modified file open | 06:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol, sure | 06:55 |
| beford | no process | 06:56 |
| beford | same, bluebar | 06:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, this is weird | 06:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh hmm, is this on pr1.1 or pr1.2 | 06:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | erm | 06:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | pr1.0 or pr1.1 | 06:57 |
| beford | 1.1 | 06:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, so it's not that either | 06:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and if you start a game (e.g. angry birds), you get the magenta bar? | 06:57 |
| beford | yes | 06:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | very strange... | 07:02 |
| beford | wow, i pushed something free like a week ago on ovi, and the download from china is like 350 and next country 9 | 07:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | https://build.pub.meego.com/package/live_build_log?arch=armv7el&package=timed&project=home%3Aitsnotabigtruck%3Apr11backports&repository=Harmattan | 07:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | haha, wow | 07:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ^ what on earth happened there.../usr/include/qt4/QtCore/qvector.h:331: error: assuming signed overflow does not occur when assuming that (X + c) < X is always false | 07:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this isn't even my code, that's a nokia open source package i imported | 07:05 |
| beford | maybe nokia uses a differente gcc | 07:06 |
| beford | different* | 07:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it works in scratchbox also | 07:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but yeah, maybe obs is loading something different | 07:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hrm | 07:07 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | the "awesome" thing is that it looks like the warning (which is being treated as an error) is coming from qt | 07:14 |
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| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: if you take the time to make a little bit of google, as I did earlier, you figure out thiago mentioned it is a bug either in qt or either in gcc. It is actually just a warning, so it seems warning turning into errors switch is on. | 08:17 |
| djszapi | I do not know why you would turn all the warnings into error, but anyway...it can be solved with pragma statements. | 08:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: right, it's not a bug per se in gcc, but it's undesirable behavior that's a result of the gcc devs being stubborn | 08:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the real problem is that -Wall -Werror is a bad combination | 08:20 |
| djszapi | ohh...also gcc devs are stubborn | 08:20 |
| djszapi | seems many known and big projects are stubborn or bad for you :) | 08:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, they are...if you look into this, it's based on an extremely strict interpretation of the c++ spec | 08:20 |
| djszapi | as I and thiago also said | 08:20 |
| djszapi | it is either a gcc or qt bug | 08:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in gcc-land, ((unsigned int)-1 + 1) > 0xFFFFFFFFU | 08:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's not a bug, it's incorrect behavior that the spec lets them get away with | 08:21 |
| djszapi | we tried to figure out back then, but we wre not able to find anyhing bad in the qt code after even rearranging the code, but it does not mean it is not a qt bug since. | 08:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because it allows optimizing out a comparison | 08:21 |
| djszapi | I do not care about your continous "bad" and "stubbornness" tone. | 08:22 |
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| djszapi | I told you the situation. | 08:22 |
| djszapi | also the workaround, not much more to comment on. | 08:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem is that all the normal solutions involve modifying the source package | 08:23 |
| djszapi | also, "c-obs" does not use different gcc than the Nokia SDK so c-obs imports that altogether. | 08:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which is what i ended up doing, which makes the fix easy | 08:23 |
| djszapi | no | 08:23 |
| djszapi | not at all | 08:23 |
| djszapi | why would a gcc option be source package change ? | 08:23 |
| * djszapi fails to understand | 08:23 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | because timed uses qmake, and qmake forces all the gcc options | 08:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's ways to get around that but they're more than a bit complicated | 08:24 |
| djszapi | huh ? not. | 08:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | QMAKE_CXXFLAGS='-Wno-strict-overflow' dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot = no change in the actual gcc command line | 08:24 |
| djszapi | seriously, what are you talking about ? | 08:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | tried a bunch of other variables too (QMAKE_CXXFLAGS_RELEASE, CXXFLAGS, QMAKE_CFLAGS_RELEASE, etc.) | 08:24 |
| djszapi | you should never really modify the source package according to a build system | 08:25 |
| djszapi | neveruit is a debian patch normally. | 08:25 |
| djszapi | not source | 08:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem isn't the build system per se, it's a problem with the source package being fragile | 08:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | due to ill-advised use of -Werror | 08:25 |
| djszapi | no | 08:26 |
| djszapi | the author of the source package does what he wants. | 08:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well that's all well and fine until somebody actually has to use it for something | 08:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and code exists to be used | 08:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and a) it's a native package, so no debian.tar.gz patches | 08:27 |
| djszapi | heh, even the author is wrong now :) | 08:27 |
| djszapi | well, I give up. | 08:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | b) qmake ignores any and all environment variables, so that route won't work | 08:27 |
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| djszapi | I am not interested in hearing everybody is wrong. :) | 08:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like i said before, not everything is binary | 08:28 |
| djszapi | it is a valid stuff to turn everything into error, many projects do. | 08:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | by your logic, if i say harmattan has bugs, i'm saying it's horrible software that should not be used | 08:28 |
| djszapi | no you swear about everything. | 08:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the fact of the matter is a) timed's package has a bug, b) i need to build it, c) so i need to implement a workaround | 08:28 |
| djszapi | even it is quite invalid | 08:29 |
| djszapi | you cannot even be convinved with a text from an official page. | 08:29 |
| djszapi | do whatever you want really. Pardon, I tried to help. | 08:29 |
| djszapi | with this few minutes google issue. | 08:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no, you launched into a tirade about this out of nowhere | 08:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *after* i already got around the issue | 08:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | x_x | 08:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's certainly not an ideal solution...that's why i'd like to know a more proper way to override the source package's build flags | 08:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but you haven't suggested one | 08:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | just chided me for daring question the author of the original package | 08:30 |
| djszapi | I already told you what a debian developer does. | 08:30 |
| djszapi | you said it is wrong | 08:31 |
| djszapi | okay, do whatever you want ... | 08:31 |
| * djszapi afk | 08:31 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | to add a debian/patches patch? | 08:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it's a native package | 08:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there is no debian/patches | 08:31 |
| djszapi | 1) No, I have not said that | 08:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what a debian developer would do is fix the source package and NMU it, but this isn't debian and there's no such thing as NMUing a package into nokia | 08:32 |
| djszapi | 2) Why on earth would you make native package for harmattan? | 08:32 |
| djszapi | 3) Good luck with native packages on c-obs | 08:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's not mine, it's *timed* from pr1.1 | 08:32 |
| djszapi | why would you change timed at all ? | 08:33 |
| * djszapi fails to see this mess | 08:33 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | because c-obs comes with 2.50, i need 2.51 | 08:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so i'm building 2.53 so i can access the new shiny headers | 08:33 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | on second thought copying the header files into my project is probably no worse than this mess | 08:34 |
| djszapi | good practice for c-obs: never ever build native package | 08:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why do you say that? | 08:34 |
| djszapi | secondly, I still think it is possible to change the rules file, but if not you need to patch it anyway | 08:34 |
| djszapi | so you could still make the debian patch | 08:34 |
| djszapi | for instance in the rules file... | 08:34 |
| djszapi | to make a replacement. | 08:34 |
| djszapi | it is not that hard really... | 08:35 |
| djszapi | simple sed command really... | 08:35 |
| djszapi | and no, the author is not wrong | 08:36 |
| djszapi | he should not really develop the platform due to c-obs limitations, if any. | 08:36 |
| djszapi | or whatever build system | 08:36 |
| djszapi | actually I am happy about him doing it this way. | 08:38 |
| djszapi | since it means he cares about warnings, too (a.k.a. quality) | 08:39 |
| djszapi | I wish more authors did it ... | 08:39 |
| djszapi | you basically say that, do not write tests either, because most of them fail in Harmattan. | 08:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, what i'm saying is that fail on warning is a dangerous option | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it can make sense to enable it on e.g. debug builds | 08:42 |
| djszapi | no | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but the problem is that you make your build extremely fragile | 08:42 |
| djszapi | it is a very valid option. | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | absolutely anything can cause it to fall apart | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like a minor increment to a gcc version | 08:42 |
| djszapi | the more author use the better | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | warnings are noisy | 08:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | high level warnings are very noisy | 08:42 |
| djszapi | but softwares are full of (serious) warnings | 08:42 |
| djszapi | if a gcc version gives a warning, fix the software | 08:43 |
| djszapi | and since this is not the common case, why lower the quality ? | 08:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this particular warning (strict-overflow) is a perfect example of what i mean by noisy and dangerous | 08:43 |
| * djszapi fail to understand | 08:43 | |
| djszapi | fails* | 08:43 |
| djszapi | no | 08:43 |
| djszapi | it is one liner to fix up in packaging | 08:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | changing *anything* can cause it to kick in, because it's detected after inlining and optimization | 08:43 |
| djszapi | what is so dangerous in one line ? | 08:44 |
| djszapi | in order to lose the quality ? | 08:44 |
| djszapi | seriously... | 08:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so whatever affects gcc's inlining heuristic can fail the build at random | 08:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and parts of qt are not exactly perfectly warning clean | 08:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this warning isn't even coming out of timed, it's coming out of qt | 08:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | totally out of control of either myself or the timed developers | 08:45 |
| djszapi | the error message is quite clean | 08:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | by "warning clean" i mean as in, library header files don't cause warnings ever | 08:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | only user code | 08:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so if qt's header causes a warning in your otherwise valid code, there's nothing clean about that | 08:46 |
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| djszapi | I am really not sure what you are talking about ... | 08:46 |
| djszapi | this is one line to fix. | 08:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but for qt to never cause a warning ever is an impractical standard, because gcc's warnings change all the time | 08:46 |
| djszapi | and you did not still do it, just arguing... | 08:46 |
| djszapi | and saying gcc, author etc wrong | 08:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i already did it, i'm waiting for the build | 08:46 |
| djszapi | why not just put the damn one line ? | 08:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but you also said my solution is incorrect | 08:46 |
| djszapi | then why argue ? | 08:46 |
| djszapi | if it is fixed ? | 08:46 |
| djszapi | you like arguing even if it is fixed ? | 08:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | erm, now you're flipping this around, i told you it was fixed 15 mins ago (actually i ran into another issue, but i think that isn't an upstream problem) | 08:47 |
| djszapi | the proper fix (at least what almost all the debian developer does) is rules file change, or debian patch | 08:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you were saying this solution is improper, somehow | 08:47 |
| djszapi | yes, modifying the source and not packaging is quite wrong | 08:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, this is very weird, dpkg-genchanges is deciding it's on i386 all of a sudden | 08:48 |
| djszapi | so your source is not in sync anymore with the official one ... | 08:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: right, now it's timed_2.53+0m6.0itsnotabigtruck1 | 08:50 |
| * djszapi has probably never seen a debian developer so far, or even a newbie packager to modify the source tar ball directly. | 08:50 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | how many times do i have to say that it's a native package: there's only one way to modify it, which is to modify the source tarball | 08:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and increment the version, which i did | 08:51 |
| djszapi | as I said, *not* | 08:51 |
| djszapi | simple grep does the damn trick in the damn rules file. | 08:51 |
| djszapi | sed* | 08:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | since the rules file is inside the source tarball, modifying the rules file is modifying that | 08:52 |
| djszapi | no no | 08:52 |
| djszapi | you were saying "source" | 08:52 |
| djszapi | I was saying "debian packaging" | 08:52 |
| djszapi | and you said debian packaging modification is not possible | 08:53 |
| djszapi | this isclearly a debian packaging modification | 08:53 |
| djszapi | nothing related to the source/upstream. | 08:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, i was saying "source package", which in this case is a DSC and a tarball, only | 08:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | where the tarball has both the source code -and- the debian packaging together | 08:54 |
| djszapi | why the heck did you tell me debian packaging is not good what I said ? | 08:54 |
| djszapi | if you actually followed my advice... | 08:54 |
| petteri | happy saturday morning #harmattan | 08:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyhow... | 08:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hey petteri | 08:55 |
| djszapi | if you say in the beginning, you are right "debian packaging" is enough, this time waste does not happen | 08:55 |
| djszapi | because then I get the situation you agreed with me already at that time instead of arguing | 08:55 |
| djszapi | source is confusing especially because you just later said it is native package. | 08:56 |
| djszapi | so as for me, it seems you were not clear which caused the misunderstanding. | 08:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i probably could have been more precise, i suppose /me shrugs | 08:56 |
| djszapi | that is the problem, you shrug if you waste someone's time who tries to help.. | 08:57 |
| djszapi | you was not clear with cdbs/dh previously either | 08:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | as well as mine...if you don't want to spend time on irc, then don't | 08:57 |
| djszapi | be precise, really hard to help you. | 08:57 |
| djszapi | when you make vague statements. | 08:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | petteri: http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/itsnotabigtruck/Harmattan/armel/ check out milkytracker on harmattan | 09:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's probably a lot more useful if you have an n950; on my n9 it's close to impossible to use the microscopic buttons | 09:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it's a cool tech demo :D | 09:00 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | awesome, timed = built | 09:14 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | it's a shame OBS builds a new VM installation from scratch for *every build* | 09:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, djszapi: apologies if i was getting on your nerves all today :( | 09:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | on the bright side, everything is finally building now | 09:55 |
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| dm8tbr | itsnotabigtruck: that's part of the concept, clean build environment for every package. | 11:17 |
| dm8tbr | itsnotabigtruck: also it shouldn't be that much overhead for a well scaled system. most things will be in RAM or cached. even the environment itself. | 11:19 |
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| bindi | itsnotabigtruck: i've come to a conclusion, i think i'll just use xmpp along with sip | 11:46 |
| bindi | although that means more battery drain | 11:56 |
| * bindi kills self again | 11:56 | |
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| ZogG_laptop | sup | 12:54 |
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| artemma | Hi All | 12:56 |
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| djszapi | X-Fade ping | 13:08 |
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| aparaatti | how can I add a user in terminal? | 13:20 |
| djszapi | useradd ? | 13:21 |
| aparaatti | useradd not found... | 13:21 |
| aparaatti | i have n9 | 13:21 |
| djszapi | /usr/sbin/useradd | 13:21 |
| djszapi | why do you need that, if I may ask ? | 13:21 |
| aparaatti | yup there it is, thank you | 13:22 |
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| aparaatti | can I set up something like sudo in the terminal? | 13:26 |
| djszapi | devel-su | 13:26 |
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| aparaatti | ok... this is so cool :D | 13:27 |
| djszapi | :) | 13:29 |
| aparaatti | I got ssh connection working for the first time... | 13:30 |
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| leinir | aparaatti: you should only need to log in as developer... | 13:34 |
| leinir | turn on developer mode, open up the sdk connection tool, select wlan or usb according to what you're using, then log in with ssh on the ip address there, username developer, password as listed | 13:35 |
| aparaatti | leinir: the root ssh access was blocked at some point | 13:35 |
| leinir | well yes, because root isn't really useful on a device controlled by aegis ;) | 13:36 |
| aparaatti | password as listed? | 13:36 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: sdk connection tool will give you a password to developer. | 13:36 |
| aparaatti | I made a own user now, so is there some reason I shouldn't use that? | 13:37 |
| leinir | aparaatti: sorry, yeah, should've been a bit more precise there - the same page that gives you the ip address also lists a password :) | 13:37 |
| aparaatti | oh indeed it does | 13:38 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: yep. :P It is not a multi-user system in general. Can you please answer my question above about why you need a separate user ? | 13:38 |
| aparaatti | I was first trying to connect through wifi... and could do it by making a new user | 13:38 |
| aparaatti | then I realized the sdk mode could be used for faster connection. I just want to edit the theme with a prober keyboard | 13:39 |
| djszapi | I think you can do that without a new user. | 13:39 |
| aparaatti | yes, the developer method works. So maybe I'll stick with that | 13:41 |
| leinir | *nods* It's what people will be able to help you with in the future too, should you need it :) | 13:41 |
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| djszapi | X-Fade lbt https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=24956 | 13:57 |
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| lbt | djszapi: I think we need a maemo community team to start taking ownership of that side of the OBS | 13:59 |
| djszapi | lbt the Harmattan target ? | 14:00 |
| lbt | personally it's not something I have any knowledge about - I don't even have a harmattan device :( | 14:00 |
| lbt | yes | 14:00 |
| djszapi | lbt is it a difficult role ? | 14:00 |
| lbt | hard question... | 14:01 |
| aparaatti | leinir: to be able to do anything usefull might be a long way to go for me, but I'm learning the sdk and playing with the phone on freetime anyway... thank's for information. | 14:01 |
| leinir | Hey, it's what we do, yeah? :) | 14:01 |
| leinir | All gotta start somewhere :) | 14:01 |
| lbt | it's a responsible role - and requires the community to trust the occupier | 14:01 |
| lbt | (s) | 14:01 |
| djszapi | yes. | 14:02 |
| djszapi | +1 | 14:02 |
| lbt | I'd hoped to be more involved in it as we migrated towards meego ... but you know the history | 14:02 |
| lbt | I have to focus on Mer now as the future | 14:02 |
| lbt | and I simply don't have the bandwidth to handle Harmattan too | 14:03 |
| lbt | I think the maemo council needs to address this | 14:03 |
| lbt | obviously there will be lower level OBS tasks that need doing - and I can help with implementation | 14:04 |
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| lbt | but I don't have the knowledge to make the decision you ask for | 14:04 |
| lbt | I need someone to 'own' the OBS for Harmattan - and right now that is just X-Fade | 14:05 |
| djszapi | yes | 14:05 |
| djszapi | I do not know anybody with too much knowledge about OBS side. At least, I did not see anybody here on IRC. Perhaps on forums, or somewhere else. | 14:06 |
| djszapi | OBS side bits* | 14:06 |
| djszapi | and I do not have time for that either. :/ | 14:06 |
| djszapi | and this is probably the issue for many. | 14:06 |
| djszapi | Wecan post something to the forum later. | 14:06 |
| djszapi | or perhaps obs/meego levlists, if any. | 14:07 |
| lbt | forget meego dev lists | 14:07 |
| lbt | totally dead | 14:07 |
| lbt | this is a harmattan only issue | 14:08 |
| lbt | I know that the OBS was discussed as the 'official' community build system a long time ago - not sure how it evolved from then on | 14:08 |
| blueslee | anyone tried firefox from ovi with flash? | 14:09 |
| djszapi | lbt: who helps for the PA guys regarding the issues, if any ? You and X-Fade there, too ? | 14:10 |
| lbt | djszapi: is there a context for that reply? | 14:10 |
| djszapi | lbt: attachment. | 14:10 |
| lbt | https://bugs.meego.com/attachment.cgi?id=9679 | 14:10 |
| djszapi | but I sent a mail to them this morning, so they will probably write an answer there on Monday. | 14:10 |
| lbt | wrt PA - that's primarily me | 14:11 |
| djszapi | lbt: the context is the reproducing steps. | 14:11 |
| djszapi | and my bugreport | 14:11 |
| djszapi | mmmh, and the other bugreport to the Nokia SDK team in the mail. | 14:11 |
| djszapi | so the solution would be for us if either they sign the Nokia SDK repository, or we de-integrate their repositories. | 14:11 |
| djszapi | The former would be the least effort for everybody. | 14:12 |
| djszapi | but they ar eobjecting to that heavily, and I have no idea why. | 14:12 |
| lbt | honestly I don't understand the issue so can't comment | 14:12 |
| djszapi | so if they cannot help, we need to fix the issue up somehow on our own. | 14:12 |
| lbt | what I meant was - do you have a link to the conversation where that reply was made | 14:12 |
| djszapi | lbt fair enough, it needs some understanding, yes. | 14:12 |
| djszapi | not atm because I cannot somehow get my emails. | 14:13 |
| lbt | ah, didn't know it was a private email | 14:14 |
| djszapi | yeah, it is internal company discussion | 14:15 |
| djszapi | but this is in a nutshell what I wrote: | 14:16 |
| djszapi | "The problem is that the Nokia repository is not signed. It should be fixed in my opinion (Marcell "CC"-ed from the SDK team), but it is still not a guarantee for external repositories out there." | 14:16 |
| djszapi | Marcell can state his opinion as the Nokia SDK TPO on Monday, hopefully. I would not personally like to copy everything out. | 14:16 |
| lbt | a quick read seems to suggest that the SDK binaries shouldn't go on devices as they're potentially sb-hacked | 14:16 |
| djszapi | correct. | 14:17 |
| lbt | so rebuilding such binaries from clean source in an sdk-alternative project sounds sane | 14:17 |
| djszapi | (They have never written it anywhere previously, and I think that is why X-Fade began integrating them). | 14:17 |
| djszapi | so I think it is not the fault of the community. | 14:17 |
| lbt | *nod* it looked like an easy fix but maybe it wasn't quite the best one | 14:18 |
| djszapi | there is going to be some transient procedure | 14:18 |
| lbt | yep | 14:18 |
| djszapi | but they do not help us, the earlier we do the better. | 14:18 |
| djszapi | we do not need to put everything from there to our repository, because there is some overlap between the apps/tools repository and the Nokia SDK repository. | 14:19 |
| djszapi | I am not sure how much, but there are some. | 14:19 |
| lbt | is all the SDK source available ? | 14:19 |
| djszapi | there are no free packages, too. | 14:19 |
| lbt | s/all/enough of/ | 14:19 |
| infobot | lbt meant: is enough of the SDK source available ? | 14:19 |
| djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/ | 14:19 |
| djszapi | I think it is managable. | 14:20 |
| djszapi | we need to copy/paste | 14:20 |
| djszapi | into the current community repository or somewhere else. | 14:20 |
| lbt | yes - that's scriptable too | 14:20 |
| djszapi | just very unhandy knowing the fact the signing would be less effort on their side, much less. :) | 14:20 |
| djszapi | and even according to the debian recommendation. | 14:21 |
| djszapi | lbt: another question, is it only you and X-Fade behind apps4meego or are there more people there ? | 14:21 |
| lbt | anyhow....I have to go finish the Mer SDK ... trust me, it's a lot more open :) | 14:21 |
| lbt | apps4meego != OBS | 14:21 |
| lbt | there are more people in apps4meego | 14:22 |
| lbt | I'm not really involved there very much (other than BOSS side) | 14:22 |
| djszapi | yes, Mer is more open. | 14:22 |
| djszapi | I am looking forward to seeing a well-working Ui stack on top of it. | 14:22 |
| lbt | on OBS it's me, X-Fade and phaeron | 14:22 |
| lbt | Nemo is really close | 14:22 |
| djszapi | PA is a bit buggy yet :P | 14:23 |
| djszapi | anyway, thanks. I do not bother you more. :) | 14:23 |
| lbt | np | 14:23 |
| lbt | o/ | 14:23 |
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| Jare | bindi: depends on your needs, but you could connect for example freeswitch to an xmpp server and use only xmpp or sip on a mobile phone | 14:42 |
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| aparaatti | is vim available some where? | 14:51 |
| aparaatti | for n9 that is... | 14:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | aparaatti: yes i think so | 14:51 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: nope | 14:52 |
| psycho_oreos | there's vi I think in harmattan-dev repository | 14:52 |
| djszapi | you need to use the community reppository for that | 14:52 |
| djszapi | I packaged it last summer | 14:52 |
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| djszapi | psycho_oreos: nope | 14:53 |
| djszapi | it is available by default | 14:53 |
| aparaatti | ok... how can I add the community repository? | 14:53 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: hold on | 14:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: if you don't see it - it doesn't mean there is no vim | 14:53 |
| psycho_oreos | djszapi, interesting | 14:53 |
| djszapi | echo 'deb http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/rzr:/harmattan/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard/ ./' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/nicks.list | 14:53 |
| aparaatti | yes.. there is vi... but I'm not used to that | 14:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | https://build.pub.meego.com/package/binaries?package=vim&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan&repository=MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard | 14:53 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: yes, vim is unfortunately missing, but on the other hand, it is understandable why. | 14:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | aparaatti: ^ here is the link | 14:54 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: after that: apt-get update | 14:54 |
| djszapi | and apt-get install vim | 14:54 |
| aparaatti | oh... so is ovi somekinf od frontend for apt? | 14:55 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: it is an app store supplied by Nokia. | 14:55 |
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| djszapi | aparaatti: apt frontend is the packager manager. | 14:57 |
| aparaatti | ok, now I have a working vim :) | 14:59 |
| djszapi | cool =) | 14:59 |
| Jare | imo ovi store downloads debs from nokia and installs them using the package manager, so it's like the software center on ubuntu | 15:00 |
| djszapi | nope :P | 15:01 |
| djszapi | that is the Ovi client ;-) | 15:02 |
| aparaatti | surprised that there is apt-get by default... | 15:03 |
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| djszapi | aparaatti: the developer mode would be a bit useless without apt ;-) | 15:06 |
| aparaatti | so I need to update the packages from commandline.. and is it save to do upgrades etc. ? if I have installed stuff from the community repository | 15:06 |
| Jare | or is it nokia store client nowadays :B | 15:06 |
| aparaatti | save=safe | 15:07 |
| djszapi | I hope I wrote it out to the community repository, we do not provide any guarantee altogether for that. | 15:08 |
| aparaatti | yes.. so if something goes wrong I can recover the phone by flashing? | 15:08 |
| denism1 | apps.formeego.org Testing - Drop Cache application is available (mostly a UI wrapper for echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches and sync). Any feedback / review is really appreciated. (as a wow number - for me 250 mb more free memory become available) | 15:10 |
| aparaatti | but propably there is some people using the same repo with n950? | 15:10 |
| djszapi | aparaatti: there are no known issues | 15:11 |
| aparaatti | ok | 15:11 |
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| aparaatti | djszapi: i can settle with that :) so is there a web page or other info somewhere on the community repos etc.? | 15:13 |
| djszapi | https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan | 15:14 |
| aparaatti | thank you | 15:14 |
| djszapi | denism1: do you need to do it after each reboot, or have you put it into an upstart job after the reboot ? | 15:16 |
| djszapi | Also, can we install from testing using the apps4meego client ? | 15:17 |
| denism1 | djszapi: you can do it at any time, it is pretty useless and really for the end users might be used just as a WOW application - together with some UI resource monitor (like RscMonitor). | 15:18 |
| denism1 | djszapi: for developers and QA testers - it might be interesting just to see how fast Maps, for example, starts without a cache at all. | 15:18 |
| denism1 | djszapi: yes, apps4meego - install "Apps Testing enabler" before and TESTING applications will become visible. | 15:19 |
| djszapi | denism1: is the apps4meego client available in ovi ? If yes, what is its name ? | 15:21 |
| denism1 | djszapi: no it is available on apps.formeego.org website, it depends to aegis-community-source-policy package also (so apps repository has to be enabled on your device) | 15:22 |
| djszapi | I will try when it is available from Ovi. ;-) | 15:22 |
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| denism1 | yes, and if really about this apps4meego - Drop Cache is using GRP::root and UID::root credentials in aegis manifest and works fine :) - really nice, but any app should be tested very well. | 15:27 |
| denism1 | I have tried apps4meego just today - but I really like it. Very powerful and nice. | 15:29 |
| djszapi | yes, QA is, of course, needed. | 15:30 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | dm8tbr: the problem is that most of the build time is spent building the vm on all but the largest packages | 17:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it could be using clones or snapshots or somethng | 17:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | on the positive side doing it this way makes it really strict about missing buildeps so those get caught | 17:03 |
| dm8tbr | itsnotabigtruck: that would destroy the flexibility of the system and at the same time bloat your storage beyond belief | 17:03 |
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| dm8tbr | you can't keep enough variants of rootfs snapshots on fast enough storage | 17:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | dm8tbr: well, since i only personally care about harmattam, that's 1 image, but if you include a bunch of meego images that's still not that many images | 17:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it's all kind of a boot point since obs is hardcoded to work this way i assume | 17:04 |
| dm8tbr | itsnotabigtruck: yes, what you just described is a case for e.g. SB2 | 17:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the idea is anything beyond core system/build-essential stuff gets added after the snapshot | 17:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then obliterated after the build | 17:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also s/boot/moot, heh | 17:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | just got up, /me is teh tired | 17:06 |
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| bindi | is the harmattan OS opensource btw? | 17:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | partly | 18:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | not really | 18:01 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82581 | 18:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | @everyone: download that and get tracking! :D | 18:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: not really to a meaningful extent, though it contains a lot of open source components | 18:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a decent chunk of the nokia system software is open source, but the user interface is what matters most of the time and that's all closed | 18:13 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://n9-apps.com/milkytracker now there's an n9-apps page too | 18:23 |
| phako | is it a harmattan problem that if I use a QSortFilterProxyModel in a QML listview I get the rowcount of the underlying model with the filtered lines being empty? | 18:32 |
| phako | or a general QML issue? | 18:32 |
| merlin1991 | anybody know what the updates to developer mode and connectivity tool bring? | 18:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | merlin1991: apparently the sdk connectivity tool looks different now | 18:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | download milkytracker! | 18:57 |
| bindi | does skype drain much battery? | 18:58 |
| phako | seems to work on desktop :-/ | 18:59 |
| SpeedEvil | bindi: yes - lots and lots | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL yeah | 19:01 |
| SpeedEvil | It both keeps the processor, and teh network active. | 19:01 |
| bindi | what's my best bet if i want voip and IM in the same program, and not drain the battery? >.< | 19:02 |
| * SpeedEvil needs to see if his cisco thingy will do SIP | 19:03 | |
| SpeedEvil | And talk to his ISP | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | and actually that's why "skype just works", it's doing a lot to work around NAT, firewall, whatnot else, and that means to keep traffic flowing to not let the NAT sessions expire | 19:03 |
| SpeedEvil | Yeah. Skype sucks. | 19:03 |
| SpeedEvil | There isn't however a better global solution. | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 19:04 |
| bindi | been playing with SIP | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | SIP works great for me | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | OOTB | 19:04 |
| bindi | what server software do you use? | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | server software?? | 19:04 |
| bindi | lol | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | sipgate.de | 19:04 |
| bindi | i thought you'd run your own server :p | 19:04 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: I mean my ISP offers me a SIP phone number. I want to make that my 'landline' | 19:04 |
| ab | DocScrutinizer, more to that. It also decrypts the executable code in the memory and locks it down from swapping out to avoid crackers to get to their secrets. This doesn't make kernel swappiness more happy | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: yo, understood | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | ab: indeed :-P | 19:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Hmm. Actually - I wonder if it would make more sense to put that on the Pi. | 19:05 |
| SpeedEvil | If I get. | 19:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | SpeedEvil: you! install milkytracker! | 19:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm trying superliminal messaging about my port :p | 19:06 |
| bindi | DocScrutinizer: does sipgate let you do instant messages (SIMPLE)? also, do they use TCP? I read that TCP is better for battery life | 19:06 |
| * DocScrutinizer waves and heads out for RL | 19:06 | |
| DocScrutinizer | bindi: both yes, afaik | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | SIMPLE seems to work, TCP should be supported. SIMPLE is not connected to a SMS gateway as it's done on some other SIP providers | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | I cloudy recall checking that when Michel implemented IM nto twinklephone | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway I use automatic transport for sipgate | 19:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably uses UDP | 19:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | usually use keep-alive REGISTER, and set register timeout to 120s | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | also avoids beoing offline for hours after IP addr change | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | which is an evil effect usually ignored by SIP users and providers | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | SIP registrar will try to send INVITE to outdated IP whenever you roam to a new DHCP lease | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | short registration timeout will cure that | 19:13 |
| bindi | i thought you should keep the timeout biggie to consverve battery | 19:15 |
| bindi | conserve | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | when a SIP call comes in, some 5 devices start to ring here XP | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | one short data burst every 2 minutes doesn't hurt much | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | you need some sort of keepalive anyway | 19:16 |
| bindi | do you have a code for me? :p | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | so why not using REGISTER for that? | 19:16 |
| bindi | i'm at sipgate.de and it wants a code | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 19:17 |
| bindi | can't select basic | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | WTF?! | 19:17 |
| bindi | https://secure.sipgate.de/user/products.php | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh, a area code | 19:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | https://secure.sipgate.com/register/unavailable | 19:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | :/ | 19:18 |
| bindi | ah :p | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | try 089 | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | or 0911 | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | 030 | 19:18 |
| bindi | 089 works | 19:18 |
| bindi | - Only for residential customers residing in Germany | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | they will check | 19:19 |
| bindi | right, what can i do then? ever configured asterisk server? :D | 19:19 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | there's other sip providers | 19:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'd recommend against asterisk, for one it has problems with secure calls | 19:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though the N9 doesn't even support secure calls because the telepathy devs cba to have anything to do with security | 19:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (neither can almost any other generic telephony library) | 19:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: here's one https://mdns.sipthor.net/register_sip_account.phtml | 19:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem is that unlike other sip servers, asterisk forces all calls through the asterisk server | 19:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it wants to be able to decrypt everything | 19:25 |
| bindi | seems legit :-D | 19:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, that site is kinda lame...but it's from the devs of the blink sip client | 19:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no phone number integration, that gets you *just* a sip address | 19:26 |
| bindi | just what i want | 19:26 |
| bindi | but i like to be in control :p | 19:26 |
| bindi | might try ot | 19:26 |
| bindi | it* | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | asterisk is no SIP server but a SIP B2B-UA | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | even s/SIP// | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | as * also can interface POTS to SIP, SIP to <random other transport> | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | even act as TAM | 19:28 |
| bindi | right well, only problem i have with it atm is failing to configure it to work with instant messages | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | so basically you can think of * as a SIP proxy rather than a registrar/server | 19:30 |
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| phako | meh, used wrong offsets in beginInsertRow. | 19:31 |
| phako | nevermind | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | and, unlike native SIP UA on maemo, it supports direct IP2IP mode | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | I.E direct SIP INVITE to joerg.dyndns.org which in turn points to my UA | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | which I consider the true native way of SIP | 19:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: of course it's a sip server, it's just also a b2bua | 19:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that isn't mutually exclusive | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, kinda | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway, the common notion you'd need an * somewhere to use SIP is a misconception | 19:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but you do need a sip server of some sort somewhere, and they all have big problems | 19:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's asterisk, freeswitch, and all the fragmented versions of openser | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically two SIP UA should be able to talk to each other without any registrar or server in between, and esp without need for a b2b ua | 19:35 |
| bindi | what is a b2b ua? :< | 19:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and if you don't want b2bua that rules out the first one | 19:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and freeswitch is a bloated mess | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | back to back user agent - basically two sip-phones ass to ass | 19:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the multiple forks of openser are poorly maintained | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | sipgate uses openser | 19:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: it's a SIP server that takes the place of the callee's phone | 19:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and redirects the actual conversation (media path) through itself | 19:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's why it's so picky about what it'll let you send through it | 19:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a normal SIP server acts more like a router | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | like a DNS | 19:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | asterisk doing that allows it to do various pbx-y things like intruding in on the conversation with prompts and stuff | 19:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it also means no secure conversations and (i guess) no simple | 19:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | normally with SIP the two ends negotiate on a codec (so both parties have to share a codec), asterisk can do conversion unlike a real sip server, also | 19:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lots of stuff uses openser, it's close to the only option...it's just not very good | 19:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, it's ok, but it's not getting any better | 19:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you've looked at the openSIPS and kamailio projects, you'll see they're complete disasters | 19:39 |
| bindi | i just want something that works :) | 19:39 |
| bindi | yes, kamailio, ugh | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | use sipgate | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | or freeworlddialup (fwd) | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | or sipphone.com | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | or *any* other of the zillion SIP providers out there | 19:40 |
| bindi | i'm paranoid, they all probably sniff my dataz :( | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | bindi: that'S exactly ther point: they CAN'T | 19:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: if you use your N9 to talk your dataz can be sniffed no matter what, no zrtp | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | as you data is going straight to peer | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | unlike with * in the middle | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: well, theoretically, sipgate/etc. could kick in b2bua just for you | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and log your media path | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it would be detectable, but realistically no one would check | 19:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | you bet I check | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't think you even *can* check on the N9, it's not like there's a gui for that | 19:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | but yes, they could do it on a per-case basis | 19:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | when special interest | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so i doubt you check, not every time | 19:42 |
| bindi | DocScrutinizer: registering for sipgate a bunch of times with fake addresses seems like hard work :( | 19:44 |
| bindi | trying to get free communication between friends going on here :p | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | when my UA asks server "please connect me to 001800123456" then I got no clue what's $IP in the answer "send your INVITE to $IP:$port" | 19:44 |
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| bindi | btw, what client do you use on your pc? | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | bindi: can't you find a provider in your own geographical area | 19:45 |
| bindi | doubt there's any finnish one, already tried googling | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | on my PC? twinkle of course | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's partially my baby, you don't think I'd ever use anything else ;-D | 19:47 |
| bindi | well that clearly won't run on windows, ekiga is failing with TCP | 19:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | the awesome DE l10n is entirely by me | 19:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bindi: use blink, it's probably the best windows client | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it doesn't have zrtp, but neither does the n9 | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | also the script hook concept, mostly | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it has mac and linux versions also | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | and partially audio | 19:48 |
| bindi | so DocScrutinizer you seem to know much about asterisk | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | as for twinkle, the time for unportable software passed a long time ago | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | not really | 19:48 |
| bindi | ever configured asterisk 10 to support instant messages? | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, it looks like twinkle isn't actually maintained anymore, and the website isn't very fashionable | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: unportable???? | 19:49 |
| bindi | ummm, blink is giving me "bonjour SDK" | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | twinkle been not only portable but in fact ported since rev0.1 | 19:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: yeah...it's linux, only, and the authors seem to have all intent to make it stay that way | 19:49 |
| bindi | do i want something made by apple | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: nope, it's definitely NOT linux only | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's general unix | 19:49 |
| RST38h | EHLO gentlemen | 19:50 |
| RST38h | How is suffering tonight? | 19:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | RST38h: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82581 | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the main problem with twinkle is the GUI based on Qt3 and using a mutex concept that conflicts with Qt4 | 19:51 |
| RST38h | itsnotabigtruck: yeah! but how do you press the tiny UI elements??? | 19:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | and neither Michel de Boer nor myself have any "intent to make it stay that way" | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's just we both don't have the time and motivation to do a major rewrite, or add pulseaudio just for the whiners | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | twinkle "just works" the way it is, and Michel moved on to other hobbies | 19:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | RST38h: lol, that's kinda the problem | 19:53 |
| bindi | well ever since i started using tcp with *, phone and pc both connect fine, but calling times out on both | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: if the website isn't fashionable enough for you, go ..... | 19:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: heh. ok, i was probably being a little harsh | 19:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | last time i looked into twinkle i was a bit irritated because i needed a ZRTP client for windows, and twinkle is one of the few ZRTP clients that exist, and it's for linux only | 19:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer | twinkle still used in a remarkable number of call centers etc, and I don't see any need for 'maintenance' as long as it just works | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | modulo the Qt3 problem | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | which noone of "the authors" is going to tackle, as we boldly failed in trying | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | would need a complete rewrite of the GUI part | 19:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and Michel always hated the GUI development duties, he's been interested in the SIP core only, which still is reference class quality and used by *all* SIP providers to check their stuff | 20:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | alright, fair enough | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: you're free to port it to windows | 20:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i was being rather unfair to your program :/ | 20:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in any case, there's no sip client for windows, nor sip server for any platform, that i really consider recommendable, and that's incredibly frustrating | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 20:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and fixing these things usually = a gigantic project | 20:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. for the sip server, that pretty much means writing one from scratch, and a lot of the sip clients out there aren't exactly easy to work on | 20:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. i thought about putting zrtp support into blink, but the rtp code is a bunch of messy python | 20:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | binary protocols + python = usually not such an awesome idea | 20:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yup | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | twinkle using some lib for RTP, I am not the biggest fan of that lib either | 20:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but there's libzrtp for it | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | "recently" AIUI they came up with even some echo cancellation in that RTP lib - I already gave up on following the development at that point in time | 20:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Michel did a last little fancy to add the config to twinkle settings, I heard users don't like it too much | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: (portable) Michel rejected all my pushing to implement IPC via dbus. Rationale: dbus is not available on all arbitrary platforms. So he used named pipes | 20:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | heh | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | IIRC we even made sure endianness is not an issue for twinkle | 20:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://store.steampowered.com/app/28050/ if any of you don't have DX:HR yet, it's $10 right now | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | so if it wasn't for the friggin Qt3 GUI, twinkle was easy to port even to maemo (though I seem to recall some of the libs were a major PITA and in the end all those who tried porting to Mac or N900 or Freerunner gave up due to the libs) | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway one last word about this antiquity SIP client: you can build a plain comandline version that works quite nice and shouldn't need any KDE/Qt/whatever stuff as dependency | 20:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: right, but it probably has a lot of posixisms | 20:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which are unfortunately hard to avoid without doing a lot of work to break out platform specific stuff | 20:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and if a program was written for *nix it's almost impossible to root all of that out | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, it at least never was meant for non-*nix platforms | 20:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm surprised that porting the non-gui libs to maemo would be an issue though...i'd have imagined that's a matter of rebuild and you're set | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, we all thought that | 20:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the thing is that windows support is a big deal on a sip client, given that you have to get other people to use it, and most of those other people use windows | 20:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, seems the the libccrtp devels are not the brighter half of devel folks | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | or was it libcommoncpp2?or are they even the same bunch? | 20:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think libcommoncpp = a support library, libccrtp = rtp implementation on top of commoncpp | 20:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer ^ | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | one of both gave all the guys that tried to port twinkle quite some headache | 20:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | looks like rzr accepted milkytracker, so it'll be in the repo in a few mins | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | port to Mac or non-*nix platforms that is | 20:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | calendar-live-icon is however unresolvable due to the whole libtimed-dev problem | 20:42 |
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| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: <credential name="UID::root" /> <for path="/opt/app/bin/addtoboot.sh" /> | 21:00 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: "sh addtoboot.sh" returns "cp: can't create '/etc/init/apps/meesaver.conf': Permission denied" | 21:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: hm...who owns /etc/init/apps/ | 21:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | remember that just being root doesn't allow you to write anywhere, you need CAP::dac_override for that | 21:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i'd expect that /etc/init/apps/ is owned by root, so you should be able to write there | 21:01 |
| pa | why is smartcam free for a lot of platforms but not meego? | 21:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | pa: do the other ones have ads? if so that's why probably | 21:02 |
| pa | i dont know, i just know they are available on sourceforge | 21:02 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: Root has the rw privileges for that folder, but even after aegis privileges that sh script can't write to there. | 21:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: how about doing devel-su (don't do develsh afterward) and echo test > /etc/init/apps/meesaver.conf | 21:10 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: in the .sh file itself? | 21:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also remember that giving UID::root to stuff through aegis is dangerous, you're literally making something setuid root | 21:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: nah, just do it from the hsell | 21:10 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: well I was looking for a way to enable user add/remove my app daemon on UI itself | 21:11 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: when user clicks Add-to startup it copies it's daemon .conf file to /etc/init/apps, if user wants to remove it runs a rm on that .conf file. | 21:12 |
| jonni | Aranel: well you can add root and user credentials to your binary and do setuid(0) when you create conf file and then setuid back to user | 21:12 |
| jonni | no need to do shell scripts | 21:13 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: It works well for devel-su root, but doesn't via .sh script. | 21:13 |
| jonni | most likely your .sh script failed because you didnt set root group, as making root.user conf most likely fails, as its not root.root | 21:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jonni: does that work without CAP::setuid? | 21:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: the point was to test...the fact that it works from the shell but not the script is very weird | 21:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | put accli -I in your script and make sure it prints out UID::root | 21:15 |
| jonni | itsnotabigtruck: lets, me check, but if I remember right it doesnt need that cap | 21:15 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: nah, it didn't gave UID:root. It's still UID::user | 21:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: there we go | 21:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | are you sure your manifest looks like | 21:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | <aegis><request policy="set"><credential name="UID::root" /><for path="/opt/app/bin/addtoboot.sh" /></request></aegis> | 21:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | maybe throw in a <credential name="GID::root" /> just to be sure | 21:17 |
| Aranel | http://pastebin.com/jgywRpvf | 21:17 |
| jonni | and if you run sh addtoboot.sh it will always fail | 21:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, add the GID::root also, and combine them into one request | 21:18 |
| jonni | you need to sh with full patch | 21:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, and yeah | 21:18 |
| jonni | sh /opt/appt/bin/addtoboot.sh | 21:18 |
| jonni | aegis doesnt give credentials if you dont use full path | 21:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jonni: hm? i thought either one won't work, you have to execute it through bitfmt_whatever | 21:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so just /opt/app/bin/addtoboot.sh | 21:18 |
| pa | but does N9 have FM radio tuner or not? | 21:18 |
| jonni | pa yes FM radio works nicely on N9 | 21:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | pa: yup, and there's apps to tune it coming out now | 21:18 |
| pa | cool.. i read some page saying it didnt have | 21:19 |
| jonni | itsnotabigtruck: I just installed the FM radio deb today, and radio works nicely | 21:19 |
| pa | is ti free? | 21:19 |
| jonni | yes its free | 21:19 |
| Aranel | QML Radio with javispedro's packages are great ^^ | 21:19 |
| pa | cool :) | 21:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | is there any transmission options as well? | 21:22 |
| jonni | ZogG_laptop: not yet atleast, since javis only has N950 and that hw doesnt have transmission | 21:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: less /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf, and make sure everything is listed there for your package | 21:22 |
| jonni | not sure if N9 has transmission hw | 21:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jonni: don't they both have wl1273 inside? | 21:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and that chip includes fm xmit | 21:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the issue was whether there's an antenna attached to it | 21:23 |
| jonni | I dont remember, havent looked the hw specs for a while | 21:23 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: my manifest.aegis now looks like http://pastebin.com/s3ga5C9R , but for some reason accli -I still doesn't show UID and GID root. | 21:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: you can't have more than one request for a particular binary | 21:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but you can have more than one binary in a request | 21:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so combine those all into 1 request block | 21:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | with 2 credentials and 2 fors | 21:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then install it and check restok.conf | 21:26 |
| pa | but does the N9 even have an FM radio transmitter on board??? | 21:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | pa: it does, but it may or may not actually be connected to anything | 21:28 |
| pa | gsmarena says.. | 21:28 |
| pa | aha | 21:28 |
| pa | but how to use the transmitter? | 21:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also i'm not sure if the drivers to interface with it actually exist either | 21:28 |
| pa | i mean for what? | 21:28 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | there's been efforts to use the wl127x fm transmitter on some android phones, but after a bit of searching i couldn't find any positive results | 21:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if the android people make some headway it should be possible to adapt that for N9 | 21:29 |
| pa | but what to use it for? | 21:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | assuming there's an antenna connection | 21:29 |
| pa | i mean what use could it have? | 21:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | transmitting fm audio :p | 21:29 |
| pa | ah, you need an antenna | 21:29 |
| pa | but there+s no place to plug it.. | 21:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | allowing you to listen to your phone from your car | 21:30 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: Package: meesaver Request: UID::root, accli -I still doesn't show that cred :| | 21:30 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | problem is that fm transmitters are uniformly super weak | 21:30 |
| pa | receiving of course has a point | 21:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so unless there's some way to put this thing into overdrive | 21:30 |
| pa | but could it be used to transmit in short range? | 21:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it isn't terribly great anyway | 21:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, that's what it's for | 21:30 |
| pa | like using it for walkie talking or something like that? | 21:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no, it's for tuning your car's radio into music/audio from your phone | 21:31 |
| pa | ah | 21:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | way too weak for two way communications | 21:31 |
| pa | ah now i see | 21:31 |
| pa | you deliver audio via fm | 21:31 |
| pa | cool | 21:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | fm transmitters are usually too weak even to have a clear signal in your car, a couple feet away | 21:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (from the antenna) | 21:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | my understanding is that the fcc has pressured fm transmitter vendors to lower the transmit power well below the legal maximum, which is already very low | 21:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so they're worthless unless you can defy the fcc and amp them up | 21:32 |
| pa | but if it works in the car, wel, that might be ok? | 21:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no, that's the problem, they don't even work in the car | 21:34 |
| pa | ah | 21:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in almost all areas, there's interference over the entire fm spectrum | 21:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | even if it isn't a strong enough signal to produce any discernible audio | 21:34 |
| beford | hi | 21:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | typical fm transmitters are too weak to overpower interference from an extremely distant high power station | 21:34 |
| trx | i use the fm transmitter all the time in my car | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so the result is that even if you can find a completely unoccupied frequency and tune into it, you'll get interference in a couple miles | 21:35 |
| Chaz6 | I'm glad for fm still, dab is rubbish | 21:35 |
| trx | and it works brilliantly | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it depends on the car too, some cars have way more sensitive radios | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it depends on the transmitter, some are stronger than others | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | even if you don't mod them | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and also the antenna placement in the car | 21:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (front vs back) | 21:35 |
| trx | but i have detached my car antenna and attached a piece of copper wire instead | 21:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ah, see | 21:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's a good idea... | 21:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Chaz6: what's so bad about it? | 21:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's kinda ridiculous how they deployed hd radio in the us instead, which is totally incompatible with everything else | 21:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that is one nice thing about fm, it's universal | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | itsnotabigtruck: it's so scratchy | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | I only have to walk through the room for it to go bad | 21:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hm | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | when it goes bad it's far worse than fm | 21:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i've had ok results with hd radio, but there's very little that supports it | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | It's like scratching nails on blackboards | 21:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the zune hd is pretty much the only portable with hd radio | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | The best signal we can get here apart from fm is satellite | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | dab is the worst | 21:37 |
| Chaz6 | satellite radio in the uk is 192kbs | 21:38 |
| Chaz6 | dab is only 128kbs | 21:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | back at home there's a station that broadcasts local indie music, on AM | 21:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so dab being scratchy is probably nothing compared to that, lol | 21:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: did you sort your stuff out? | 21:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hm, i better get going | 21:39 |
| pa | by the way, is the fm radio receiver on sourceforge or ovi developer? | 21:40 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: combined them to 2 <request>'s, http://pastebin.com/SMGeG95E | 21:40 |
| * RST38h ritually murders a hamster | 21:41 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: that's still not valid... | 21:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | 1 request, with 2 credential elements, and 2 for elements | 21:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can only have 1 for element for a particular path in the entire file | 21:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i.e. don't repeat them like you did | 21:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's very simple, you're requesting UID::root + GID::root, for /opt/blah.sh and /opt/blah2.sh | 21:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also are you sure about the /bin/bin? | 21:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that doesn't really look right... | 21:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this document is pretty cryptic but if you can make your way through it, it does a pretty good job of describing the aegis manifest format http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Developing_for_Harmattan_Harmattan_security_Security_guide_Aegis_manifest_syntax.html | 21:43 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: like this one? http://pastebin.com/6yhyCLQf , yup I'm sure about that directory, it's "bin" twice. | 21:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: closer, get rid of the 2nd two credential elements | 21:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | conceptually you're making a single request for privileges, requesting UID::root and GID::root, applying them to the two .sh files | 21:44 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: oops http://pastebin.com/FVXNeiEj | 21:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: looks legit | 21:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so install that, then check restok.conf | 21:45 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: sh and accli -I failed, restok.conf shows as Request: UID::root | 21:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | failed? | 21:46 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: sh /opt/app/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh gave permission denied, accli -I didn't show required creds. | 21:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: drop the sh | 21:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aegis doesn't do anything if you run the interpreter instead of the script | 21:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you were doing that, that's the whole problem | 21:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think jonni was a bit off earlier, if you run sh, it doesn't matter what you use as the path | 21:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because aegis considers you to be executing sh, not /opt/app/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh | 21:49 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: /opt/MeeSaver/bin/bin $ ./addtoboot.sh gave "permission denied" too. | 21:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | try literally /opt/app/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh | 21:49 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: /opt/MeeSaver/bin/bin $ /opt/MeeSaver/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh , "permission denied" again | 21:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what about the accli output? | 21:50 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: accli -I /opt/MeeSaver/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh shows as UID::user and GID::users | 21:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | erm, wait | 21:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you have to run accli -I from the script | 21:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | modify addtoboot.sh and reroll the package | 21:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can't modify it on the phone either, that will break the hash and cause running it to produce Operation not permitted | 21:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't think specifying an argument to accli -I even does anything | 21:52 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel ^ | 21:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i gotta roll, bbiaf! | 21:52 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: sure, thanks for helping me out =) | 21:53 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: re-rolled the package, /opt/MeeSaver/bin/bin/addtoboot.sh gave UID::user and GID::users again. | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | FMTX on N9 won't work, no matter what tools you use to drive it: it has no antenna attached | 21:59 |
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| jonni | Aranel: aranel you should check restok.conf file untill you see the root in there, and then you might need to reboot the machine, since sometimes if you update your package from different credential to another reboot is needed | 22:04 |
| Aranel | jonni: it shows UID:root for my package on restok.conf, but doesn't for accli -I on those sh scripts. | 22:06 |
| jonni | Aranel: and you have rebooted your N9? | 22:06 |
| jonni | as there is that aegis cache thing that it remembers the older credentials if path is same | 22:06 |
| Aranel | jonni: by the way, If I grant main.sh UID::root and run "python /opt/app/main.py" from it, would main.py have the same creds or not? | 22:09 |
| Aranel | jonni: I'm thinking of using os.setuid() as you suggested. | 22:09 |
| jonni | if I remember right python inherits the credentials, so I would say yes it would have the same creds | 22:10 |
| Aranel | jonni: os.setuid(0) > OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted | 22:11 |
| Aranel | jonni: d'oh :| | 22:11 |
| jonni | (python is not installed on device by default, so you need also add depends: python on your debian control file.... | 22:11 |
| jonni | Aranel: really hard to debug without seeing your sourcecode | 22:12 |
| Aranel | jonni: it's a slot named "addboot", os.setuid(0), os.setgid(0), os.system("sh /opt/path/to/file.sh"), os.setuid(29999) and os.setgid(29999) | 22:14 |
| jonni | c++, perl, python, sh or what | 22:14 |
| jonni | without seeing the sources there is no idea | 22:14 |
| Aranel | Python | 22:14 |
| Aranel | jonni: well it's more than one file, but wait a moment | 22:14 |
| jonni | and you rebooted N9 after giving root credentials to aegis manifest? | 22:14 |
| Aranel | jonni: http://pastebin.com/CsNp9ezh | 22:16 |
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| jonni | and manifest file for everything? or git repo? | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | jonni: (cache) I thought the kernel aegis cache works via inodes | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | not paths | 22:17 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | you shouldn't need to do any setuid stuff | 22:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: could you post the restok extract for your package | 22:18 |
| Aranel | jonni: http://pastebin.com/GJjiKqQD for manifest.aegis, "python /opt/path/to/main.py" is the single line of main.sh | 22:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: it should normally be called packagename.aegis | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway AFAIK kernel aegis cache gets setup during boot, so any later modifications in restok won't take any effect until reboot? | 22:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: no, because dpkg reloads the aegis state | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | aaah, ok | 22:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: wait, does your script have a shebang line in it? | 22:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i.e. #!/bin/sh | 22:20 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: "The Aegis manifest file is named manifest.aegis inside Qt Creator projects. The file located is in Qt Creator project files directory qtc_packaging/debian_harmattan/. At the start of a build, Qt Creator copies this file to debian/<package-name>.aegis. " | 22:20 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: harmattan-docs said that was okay :| | 22:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh ok | 22:21 |
| jonni | or do you have the .deb file, might be easier just to debug that one | 22:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i haven't even touched qt creator, so yeah | 22:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what about the shebang | 22:21 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: nope It doesn't have that line | 22:22 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: restok.conf http://pastebin.com/0YgACMWM | 22:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: there's the answer | 22:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | put in the #!/bin/sh | 22:23 |
| jonni | most likely if you prefix with "sh " or "python " you just drop your privileges, you should remove those | 22:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | always always always include a shebang line in all scripts with +x permission | 22:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | jonni: the problem was that executing a script without a shebang line invokes magic behavior in the shell | 22:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so it was doing the equivalent of sh script.sh | 22:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | instead of passing it to the kernel and having aegis do its thing | 22:24 |
| Aranel | jonni: I'm running it as /opt/MeeSaver/qml/meesaver/main.sh | 22:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also Aranel: where's the GID::root | 22:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hrm | 22:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though that isn't actually needed | 22:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i thought you put that in, strange that it isn't there | 22:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, try the shebang | 22:25 |
| jonni | ah yes, if .sh is missing #!/bin/sh then that could explain it | 22:25 |
| Aranel | for python code, it didn't change anything, OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted again. | 22:26 |
| Aranel | now I'll try it on external scripts (addtoboot.sh) to see if it works on them. | 22:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: did you include the shebang line in the python script... | 22:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this isn't really that complicated | 22:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a) an executable script is a script with +x permission | 22:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | b) executable scripts MUST have a shebang line with the interpreter to use | 22:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for python that's /usr/bin/python, for shell it's /bin/sh | 22:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | c) aegis privileges set on a script only apply if you execute the script | 22:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | paths don't matter, but executing it vs not executing it does | 22:28 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: yup it works for external scripts now ^^ | 22:30 |
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| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: and accli -I shows UID::root too. | 22:30 |
| merlin1991 | d) aegis privileges on a script only work if dpkg builds a hash for the script, and that is only done if it has a shebang | 22:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I doubt that, but it's not applied when it isn't 'executable' (read: missing the shebang) | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | aegis privileges AIUI get applied to executables only | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually: on execution | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | which implies it's an executable | 22:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: also, for your python, you can leave the shebang out and use /usr/bin/python x | 22:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | once you've already acquired the permission through the script | 22:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but if the script does nothing but run the python, that's unnecessary | 22:41 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: you can doubt it, but I'm right :D | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | as itsnotabigtruck just explained, a script without shebang will make ld-linux barf up when shell tries to feed it, and then shell takes over and starts its magic which means it's actually invoked like "sh <yourscript>" | 22:42 |
| merlin1991 | upon installing your .deb the manifest get's read and each "path" in the manifest that has no sha1 has in the digsigsums file gets ignored | 22:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and I guess aegis is implemented/hooked-in to ld-linux | 22:43 |
| merlin1991 | the digsigsums file in term get's created by some code that checks each file in the build for elf header or a shebang | 22:43 |
| merlin1991 | and only hashes those | 22:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | weird | 22:44 |
| merlin1991 | so bascially even if there would be no problem with ld,... you'd never get your agegis manifest past dpkg -i because it would ignore your settings | 22:44 |
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| merlin1991 | hm that should have been: upon installing your .deb the manifest (_aegis in the .deb) gets read and only paths with a valid checksum (sha1 saved in the digsigsums file) are actually added to aegis | 22:46 |
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| Aranel | yay it works both for adding and removing daemon now =) Thanks guys :) Now I have to figure out why app shortcut doesn't work properly and it's off to Ovi Store ^^ | 22:48 |
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| merlin1991 | btw the package in question that does the hashing inside scratchbox is refhashutils (see hashcalc.sh for its crypitc invocation by dpkg-buildpackge) | 22:50 |
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| merlin1991 | hm what would be the easiest operation (done from python) that requires an aegis token? | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | su ? | 23:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | os.system("su") actually | 23:13 |
| Iktwo | Hi, I've made a very simple wifi scanner using wireless tools, I want to share it with you but I don't know how to request root access in my app, I can use it normally when launche with QtCreator, but in the phone I need to open it as root.. http://iktwo.wdfiles.com/local--files/wifik/2012-02-25_14-55-38.png can you help me? then I'll post it on TMO Thanks | 23:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | see: | 23:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~aegis | 23:18 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 23:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | Iktwo: you have still a long way to go ;-) | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually it seems to me the last topic on this chan, ending like 2 lines above your post, was about exactly same problem | 23:20 |
| beford | ~!seen admiral0 | 23:21 |
| Iktwo | DocScrutinizer: I understand how aegis works, I'm not planning to release my app in the store.. I just tought it may be useful for some else and want to share it | 23:21 |
| beford | ~seen admiral0 | 23:21 |
| infobot | admiral0 <~admiral0@adsl-ull-234-129.48-151.net24.it> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 2d 2h 59m 52s ago, saying: '?'. | 23:21 |
| Iktwo | I saw an app (didn't test it) that let's you change the background by a editing a protected file, it requires developer mode if I remember correctly | 23:22 |
| Iktwo | so I tought there's was a way of lauching my app as root or as a developer, I'm not talking about any hacking, I just need to know if it's possible by editing the .desktop launcher or smething.. | 23:23 |
| Aranel | Iktwo: *now I'm talking by blind guess and may say something stupid but..* aegis-exec, maybe? | 23:24 |
| Sazpaimon | thinking of buying a white N9 case | 23:25 |
| Sazpaimon | as in the housing | 23:25 |
| Sazpaimon | are they incredibly difficult to swap out? | 23:25 |
| Iktwo | Aranel: thanks I'll see if that works | 23:27 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | whoa, i was scrolled way up | 23:37 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | Aranel: so what's the app? | 23:37 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | Iktwo: remember, alignment | 23:38 |
| Iktwo | a WiFi Scanner using wireless-tools | 23:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | make sure that the padlock is aligned with wifik, the channel is aligned with iktwo, the bssid is aligned with the ssid and the bar | 23:38 |
| Iktwo | it's very simple, I just parse the output of iwlist wlan0 scan | 23:38 |
| rigow | hi all, is there any FAQ on the latest dev-update? My openssh-server on my N9 doesn't start anymore. Google doesn't offer help | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | iktwo: as for the aegis stuff, what's the problem? | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for root access, you can just add that to your aegis assertions | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | just remember to be careful, you're making something setuid root that way | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | actually, hmm | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you probably don't need to be root | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you need CAP::net_admin | 23:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or one of the other caps | 23:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | check if the scanner works under develsh, without devel-su | 23:40 |
| Iktwo | if I run the app from QtCreator it works I can succesfully use iwlist wlan0 scan, if I just launch my app from it's icon it doesn't work | 23:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, put in an aegis manifest asserting that capability | 23:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | see if it starts working | 23:40 |
| Iktwo | it work's if I do develsh first | 23:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, then that's it | 23:41 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: It's a small app to select a random lockscreen background (slideshow) every X seconds from given folder | 23:41 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: nothing big/useful in fact =) just to educate me about Harmattan development. | 23:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you need something like <aegis><request><capability name="CAP::net_admin" /><for path="/opt/path" /></request></aegis> | 23:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | iktwo ^ | 23:41 |
| Iktwo | thanks | 23:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, also | 23:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | check what's in the current aegis manifest | 23:42 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | you're probably using qt creator, and qt creator normally attempts to guess what capabilities you need | 23:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that means if you add your own manifest you might lose capabilities from what you had | 23:42 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | on the other hand i don't think a simple gui app with no audio needs special capabilities | 23:42 |
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| Iktwo | oh.. let me check | 23:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Iktwo: remember that many things that involve interacting with the kernel require linux capabilities | 23:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | on a normal linux system, becoming root gives you all the capabilities | 23:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | with aegis, they're two separate things | 23:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | not on aegis :-P | 23:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | devel-su gives you root, develsh gives you some (but not all) capabilities | 23:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and having root doesn't mean you have root access, you're just the root user | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | atually on aegis/HARM root has less capabilities than user, it seems | 23:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so manipulating the wireless state is a network admin action | 23:44 |
| Iktwo | thanks again :) | 23:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so it requires CAP::net_admin | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | though honestly that's a poor design when iwlist needs CAP:net-admin to *list* | 23:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: well, it probably lists by telling the wifi chip to do a scan | 23:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 23:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so conceptually you're changing the wifi state, sort of | 23:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i guess | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | ut what's so extremely nasty in asking wireless chip to scan? | 23:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, you could do it a zillion times in a loop :p | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, you can't, when driver design is OK | 23:46 |
| Iktwo | mmm it's weird, I added CAP::net_admin and now sometimes networks are shown sometimes not, but running under develsh works perfectly.. I'm gonna upload it and the code maybe someone want to test it | 23:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i mean, in this case that isn't aegis' fault, it's the linux kernel's fault | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | but well, you need CAP::blind-user to flash the indicator LED ;-P | 23:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | iktwo: hrm... | 23:47 |
| Aranel | itsnotabigtruck: do you know how QtCreator creates app shortcuts? It generates a desktop file everytime, does it -kind of- wrong and even If I change that file, generates it again on next build. | 23:47 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | Iktwo: try asserting all the network capabilities | 23:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then remove them one by one | 23:47 |
| Iktwo | Aranel: I use QtCreator and it doesn't generate my files every build.. | 23:48 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | also Iktwo: make sure you're doing error checking | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if iwlist bombs out, it'll return a non-zero value | 23:48 |
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| Iktwo | ok | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | check for that | 23:48 |
| Aranel | Iktwo: don't you have yourappname.desktop on your project folder? | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it might be a good idea to log the iwlist output somewhere too | 23:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (not sure what you're using to spawn iwlist) | 23:49 |
| Iktwo | Aranel: yes, I think that if you use the default project it creates something like app.desktop and app_harmattan.desktop | 23:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | iwlist probably reports error messages on stderr | 23:50 |
| Iktwo | Aranel: I edit the _harmattan one and it work's | 23:50 |
| Iktwo | itsnotabigtruck: I'm not getting output at all.. when no networks are shown, also if I open a terminal and as a user I do /usr/sbin/iwlist wlan0 scan it works | 23:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Iktwo: are you monitoring stderr? | 23:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | errors aren't reported on stdout | 23:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | however, you should only use stderr for debugging anyway, use the return value for the actual success check | 23:52 |
| Iktwo | oh.. then no, no error checking.. | 23:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | how are you spawning the process? i've had luck with glib's process spawning api | 23:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but qt probably has something too | 23:52 |
| rigow | looks like there is no FAQ | 23:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rigow: don't think there is one, just ask! :D | 23:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Iktwo: anyway, you need to know how it's failing to know how to make it not fail | 23:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if it's not failing with "operation not permitted" it's probably not aegis | 23:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, also, idea: | 23:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | from develsh: aegis-exec -c -a CAP::net_admin -a CAP::net_raw ... /usr/sbin/iwlist wlan0 | 23:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can use aegis-exec to constrain the caps used when launching iwlist | 23:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | much faster than permuting your manifest and reinstalling over and over | 23:55 |
| rigow | itsnotabigtruck, my sshd stopped working | 23:55 |
| rigow | figured that there is no /etc/init.d/ssh anymore | 23:55 |
| rigow | starting sdk on WLAN I get connection refused and ps aux shows no running sshd | 23:56 |
| * rigow finds that strange | 23:56 | |
| rigow | I think I will try to re-install the openssh server | 23:56 |
| rigow | but on meego-terminal, this is really not pleasant ;) | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rigow: harmattan uses upstart, not sysvinit | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so everything's in /etc/init | 23:57 |
| rigow | ha! | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | do ls /etc/init/ssh.conf | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | from meego terminal | 23:57 |
| rigow | kernel 3.0 | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | wait, what? | 23:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, you can restart ssh with: /sbin/initctl restart ssh | 23:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there isn't a kernel 3.0 for the N9 i'm aware of | 23:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rigow ^ | 23:58 |
| rigow | ah, just reacting on upstart, now also in opensuse 12.1 | 23:59 |
| rigow | and has kernel 3.2 | 23:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | fwiw harmattan ships with 2.6.32.something iirc | 23:59 |
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