IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2012-02-14

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Sazpaimon_beford, if you find it, let me know00:03
Sazpaimon_I'm guessing the TI version is more genericized so it would require less00:04
Sazpaimon_also, Im assuming it crashed on the youtube player because of the dependency on libplayback from M5 not cooperating on harmattan00:04
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Sazpaimon_strangely even that version crashes on a video player00:09
Sazpaimon_actually the TI version seems to ncrash on everything00:09
Sazpaimon_yeah, 10.1 r105 and r120 consistently crash the plugin container00:11
befordwell its flash :P00:11
befordwhat browser are you using though? firefox or built in?00:12
Sazpaimon_the builtin browser has no plugin support whatsoever anyway00:12
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Sazpaimon_avm2 content just shows a black screen00:13
slingrflash on the n9 getting closer?00:14
Sazpaimon_slingr, i was testing to see if the N900 flash 9 player works00:15
Sazpaimon_it kinda does00:15
slingrsporatic crashes?00:15
Sazpaimon_no, its consistent00:15
Sazpaimon_the leaked flash 10.1 plugin doesn't work at all00:15
Sazpaimon_it will display nothing on avm2 content and crash on avm300:16
TronicFlash 9 is not too helpful anymore.00:16
Sazpaimon_the N900 flash 9 binary works fine00:16
TronicMost sites require 10.x.00:16
Sazpaimon_but its dependency on libplayback makes it not work on players that play mp4/flv00:16
Sazpaimon_Tronic, most sites dont use any flash 10 content00:17
TronicSazpaimon_: Is that also with the default browser or only Fennec?00:17
Sazpaimon_the default browser doesnt support plugins00:17
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TronicIIRC, modern video formats were only added in Flash 10 and that would explain why so many video sites require it.00:18
Sazpaimon_flash 9 supports h.264 decoding00:18
TronicFrom .flv?00:18
Sazpaimon_flv decoding has been around since macromedia days00:18
Sazpaimon_adobe added h.264 decoding with flash 900:19
TronicIn any case, even Youtube complains about not being able to use better quality and many other sites don't work at all.00:19
Sazpaimon_well flash 10 doesnt have anything to do with that00:19
TronicAlso Flash-based games are almost entirely 10.x nowadays because developers are too lazy to provide fallbacks even if they could.00:19
Sazpaimon_no, they also aren't00:20
Sazpaimon_if they compile a game for avm3, it works on flash 900:20
TronicUmmh. I've been developing several of them myself.00:20
Sazpaimon_unless they're using 3d objects00:20
TronicAnd yes, we certainly did use AS3 and they certainly do require 10.something (not even 10.0 is OK).00:20
Sazpaimon_flash 9 supports AS300:21
TronicNot the APIs we use, apparently.00:21
Sazpaimon_I know flashdevelop and flex SDKs will default to flash 10.3 a lot of times00:21
TronicEither way, it doesn't matter what Flash 9 supports or doesn't support, I run across sites that won't work with it all the time.00:22
Sazpaimon_but usually most of the time flash 9 works00:22
Sazpaimon_and you can just edit the flash version in the binary itself00:22
Sazpaimon_you'd be surprised how many flash files work with flash 900:22
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Sazpaimon_just tested audio playback on avm2 content00:23
Sazpaimon_oh god its awful00:23
TronicOkay, fair enough. You may be able to make them work if you edit the binary.00:23
Sazpaimon_actually its not terrible00:23
TronicNot any of our games, though, but quite probably many of those online.00:23
Sazpaimon_but I do get some occasional corruption00:23
Sazpaimon_Im surprised that I even got sound to begin with00:24
TronicNo wonder, if the APIs simply aren't there, or if it doesn't support the H.264 profile you need, AVI/MP3 or whatnot format you are using.00:24
Sazpaimon_it was flv content00:25
befordthere is a 10.2 flash on TI page now00:25
Sazpaimon_beford, doesnt really matter, I cant get the generic builds to do anything00:25
itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon_: nice work00:27
Sazpaimon_not really sure why nobody else really bothred to try00:28
itsnotabigtrucktoo bad it's built against hildon/gtk stuff...i wonder if any of that is anything important00:28
itsnotabigtruckmight be able to load it against a bunch of dummy libraries00:28
Sazpaimon_not really00:28
Sazpaimon_flash requires gtk no mattr what00:28
Sazpaimon_becuse the context menus are written in gtk00:29
itsnotabigtruckoh yeah, and what about lifting flash from an android phone00:29
Sazpaimon_i tried that for fun earlier00:29
itsnotabigtruckno go?00:29
Sazpaimon_it depends on a few android libraries that cant really easily be replicated00:29
Sazpaimon_and im not sure if android's libc is compatible on an ABI level with ours00:30
itsnotabigtruckso making a library with the absolute minimum android stuff and everything else stubbed out wouldn't work? :(00:30
itsnotabigtruckand ah right00:30
itsnotabigtrucki kinda forgot how much android being a gnu-free system would be a problem00:30
Sazpaimon_if the libc was compatible with ours, some generic library with stubs may work00:30
Sazpaimon_but media components may not00:31
Sazpaimon_so you may not get audio00:31
Sazpaimon_depending on how flash communicates with android to get audio out00:31
Sazpaimon_all the gles libraries are available for it though, so there's that00:31
itsnotabigtruckanyway, due to apple's insistence w/r/t not having flash on the iphone, it probably isn't as big of a deal now as it used to be00:31
Sazpaimon_it really isn't00:31
itsnotabigtruckand a lot of the stuff that really does need flash needs a recent, fully functioning flash00:32
itsnotabigtruckthat was always the problem with flash lite00:32
itsnotabigtruckit only works when you don't need it :p00:32
Sazpaimon_as I said earlier, the majority of flash content is compatible with flash 900:32
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Sazpaimon_flash lite is based on some ancient flash APi level00:32
Sazpaimon_like flash 6 or 700:32
Sazpaimon_I can test with the android libflashplayer again00:34
Sazpaimon_but im not really confident in it00:34
Sazpaimon_im missing 3 more libraries00:35
Sazpaimon_libgps, librpc, and libnetutils00:35
Sazpaimon_these are all dependencies on other dependencies00:35
Sazpaimon_so its likely that the flash library wont even need symbols from any of these00:36
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franz`anyone knows this repo ?00:40
franz`or anywhere else I can get avahi-daemon for the N9 really00:40
Sazpaimon_No franz` go back to #!00:42
franz`lol his az00:42
franz`*hi saz00:42
Sazpaimon_hi franz`00:42
Sazpaimon_i got flash working on my N900:42
Sazpaimon_so thats the topic of conversation right now00:42
franz`real flash or gnash?00:43
Sazpaimon_real flash from the N90000:43
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franz`but yeah I assume you don't know anything about/haven't tried avahi00:47
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Sazpaimon_if anyone was intrested in a crazy shocker, the android libflashplayer crashes with all dependencies satisfied00:57
itsnotabigtruckfranz`: since the vast majority of people only seem to want avahi so they can access stuff as blah.local...can't you just reconfigure your router so you don't need avahi anymore?00:59
franz`but I'd like to be able to use it on networks I don't control too01:03
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faenilNitdroid now running with hw accelerated 3D/OpenGL on N9 :D01:48
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NsaneCoffewhere do you find the latest version01:57
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djszapifranz`: I would be interested in avahi, too.02:46
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djszapimmm, ovi rejected my package :)02:47
franz`try testing those .debs from that link02:48
djszapifranz`: ok, I am gonna import it into the community repository, if it works.02:49
ieatlintrandom offtopic question... if you were at a fancy hotel bar, spent $23.27 on lunch and left a $4 tip (thus writing $4.00 and $27.27 on the receipt), and then white still at the hotel realize they charged you $27.92... would you ignore the $0.65, or complain?02:52
djszapiis there a signal I can catch when the user swipes away off my application, and my application is put into the background ?02:52
djszapiOvi QA complained about the timer so that I should pause at that time, and that suggestion makes complete sense.02:52
ieatlintdjszapi: there is in qml02:53
ieatlintneed to find it, but there's a page status or something property that you can watch for changes on02:53
djszapilet me check02:53
beforddjszapi, any hints why they rejected it?02:54
befordoh nevermind, just read it02:55
djszapiieatlint: all I see is inActive02:55
djszapilet me go for that.02:57
ieatlint might be it02:57
ieatlintactive should work, or if viewMode is WindowState.Fullsize02:58
ieatlintboth should be the same, i think02:58
ieatlintunless something like dropping down the status bar causes the app to be active==false since the status bar has focus02:58
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djszapifullSize is not okay03:00
djszapiyou can launch the appwithout fullScreen for instance03:01
ieatlintoh, no, fullsize isn't ok, but that's not why03:01
ieatlintit appears viewMode is an enum with only two values03:01
ieatlintfullsize and thumbnail... so if visible is false, viewmode will still be one of those two03:01
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ieatlintvisible==true && viewMode==WindowState.Fullsize is the most accurate detection of a window that is the current app i think03:02
djszapiyou can start the application in non full size mode03:03
djszapior even switch off anytime.03:03
ieatlintit only appears as thumbnail if it it's in the task switcher03:04
djszapithen I do not need visible03:04
ieatlintviewMode==WindowState.Thumbnail && active==true is not possible methinks03:04
djszapithe only check I need is whether it was put away to the switcher03:04
djszapiI do not see why I would need two checks.03:05
ieatlintbecause simple is bad03:05
itsnotabigtruckbtw any idea where the initrd on the N9 comes from?03:06
ieatlintactive tells if you if you have focus, viewMode tells you if it's fullscreen or thumbnail (ie, in taskswitcher) and visible tells you if it's visible03:06
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: concerning the hotel thing...maybe?03:06
ieatlintso to tell if you're the current app, use active.  however, if a user does something like drop down the status bar, active will be false -- if that's an issue, you need to do two tests03:07
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: huh ?03:07
ieatlinti think that was supposed to be directed at me03:07
itsnotabigtruckwhoops, yep03:07
djszapiieatlint: no, active catches those.03:07
itsnotabigtrucknot the first time i've made that sort of mistake, heh03:07
ieatlintand yeah, i don't really care about 65 cents... i'm just put off by the discrepancy03:07
djszapiI still do not see why I would need two checks.03:07
ieatlintdjszapi: active checks for focus03:08
ieatlintfocus is implicit that the window is visible and fullscreen03:08
ieatlintbut, if there's anything on top of the window, it can be visible and full screen but not active03:08, I do not still see why one check is not enough03:08
ieatlintit all depends on if you want your app to stop your app if something like the status bar is dropped down03:09
itsnotabigtruckieatlint: well, guess it entirely depends on whether you want to get it back on principle, whether it's worth the time to do so, and whether you're worried about getting on the bad side of the hotel staff...why not go fo rit03:09
djszapivisible == true and active == false | visible == false and active == false -> need both according to the documentation. Well, that is silly.03:10
djszapithere should be an "can interact with the app state variable".03:10
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djszapiieatlint: ofc the game player wanna have the timer stopped :)03:10
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djszapithere is no disagreement there, right ? :)03:11
ieatlintah, no, in that case yes... didn't realize it was a game03:11
ieatlintyou can just use active03:11
djszapiI need two checks apparently according to their API.03:12
ieatlintwell if you're just testing for focus, active is all you need03:12
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it sounds like you just need pause whenever active goes false03:13
djszapimmm, true, visibility does not matter.03:14
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ieatlintactive==true && visible==false is not possible03:15
djszapiit is cool Ovi tests it this useful.03:15
itsnotabigtruckhopefully MP3ing all my lossless files will be sufficient to get them onto the N903:15
ieatlintthe docs say that combo "is not allowed"03:15
djszapiieatlint: and who said it would possible ? :)03:15
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ieatlintyou should just put a lot of  "if( 0 ) { ...; }" statements in your app then03:15
ieatlintif( 0 ) { do_something_awesome(); }03:16
djszapilet me know when you are sober :P03:16
ieatlintbah, if you think i got that drunk at a hotel bar for $23...03:17
ieatlintthat included food03:17
* djszapi hopes to get invitation for the Qt Contributor Summit03:18
ieatlintwhen/where is that?03:18
itsnotabigtrucklooks like i have 10 gigs of lossy, 15 gigs of lossless03:20
itsnotabigtruckso, no way mp3ing the 15 gig part is going to make everything fit on a 16 gig n903:20
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djszapiso anybody willing to test the enhanced UX ? :)03:22
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itsnotabigtruckoh btw what do you all use to sync your music03:24
itsnotabigtruckand djszapi: for kanagram i assume?03:24
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djszapiyes, but I need to do this for khangman, too.03:24
djszapiand prolly for kletters as well03:25
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djszapiactually I was also expecting rejection because I do not have a help page how to play the game, and not quite intuitive.03:26
itsnotabigtruckoh yeah - ieatlint: i just realized03:27
itsnotabigtruckare you sure the charge is the final value03:27
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itsnotabigtrucki assume this is on your credit card, i think it's common to over-authorize by a bit to cover the expected tip03:27
ieatlintpotentially, but clearly i'll be calling the police for credit card fraud once it posts03:28
itsnotabigtruckmultiply $23.27 * 1.203:28
itsnotabigtruck(20% tip)03:29
ieatlintperhaps indeed03:29
ieatlintmy asshole of a self apparently left a mere 17%03:29
ieatlintand yeah, i bet that summit in berlin will be awesome03:30
itsnotabigtruckwell, the reason is that since you usually write the tip after they authorize the charge, they want to make sure you have enough left against your limit that the whole thing will go through with a typical tip03:30
ieatlintsomehow doubting i'd find an invitation or the funds to get there though03:30
ieatlint225 seats isn't that many, and there are a lot of people who have done a lot of qt stuff03:32
itsnotabigtruckbtw any ideas about the sync software03:33
GeneralAntillesOh, Nokia.03:33
GeneralAntillesHow much you suck.03:33
itsnotabigtrucki hate to have to pick and choose what music to load, everything fits, lossless, on my 32gig zune03:34
djszapiieatlint: yes, but I hope I get in.03:34
ieatlintgood luck03:34
djszapiI was not able to get to the last summit because of other sprints03:35
djszapieven though my company wanted to sponsor me ...03:35
djszapivis major story.03:35
itsnotabigtruckhm, i was going to mention that...seems like it ought to be possible to work something through your job03:36
itsnotabigtruckbut i suppose not03:36
ieatlintnot in my case03:37
djszapiseems I have another regression in kanagram: I made override_dh_shlibdeps: void though.03:37
djszapiso not sure 'sup.03:37
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: just take ${shlibs:Depends} out of your debian/control and write them in manually03:40
ieatlinthah, yeah, would be $1.5k on airfare alone for me03:40
ieatlintdon't think that's happening :P03:40
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: that is more work for each package if you have more than needed.03:40
djszapiand the overriding should work anyway.03:41
* djszapi has no clue what is going on, it worked previously.03:41
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: if what you were doing is what i think it is, that causes your package to have no dependencies03:42
djszapiyes because you cannot ship dependencies into app stores, like ovi03:43
itsnotabigtruckwhich is not so desirable and would have the same net effect as removing ${shlibs:Depends} anyway03:43
djszapiexcept that you would need to do it for every single package03:43
itsnotabigtrucki was under the impression you can depend on things in the image/nokia repo only03:43
djszapiinstead of doing once in the rules file...which does not seem too sane.03:43
itsnotabigtruckyou can't require EXTERNAL dependencies03:43
itsnotabigtrucknot having dependencies is just wrong03:43
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djszapiyou clearly do not understand how ovi works :)03:44
itsnotabigtrucki do understand how non-halfassed packaging works03:44
itsnotabigtruckand if what you claim were true you couldn't have python apps in the store, which you can03:44
djszapiexcept that python is available03:45
djszapiand kdelibs is not.03:45
djszapior libkdeedu.03:45
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itsnotabigtruckso reread what my solution was03:45
itsnotabigtruckwhich was to remove ${shlibs:Depends} (that's where the autodetected dependencies go)03:45
djszapithat is more work than my way in certain cases03:46
itsnotabigtruckthen manually enter dependencies that aren't shipped together with your app03:46
djszapiand I will not apply different versions per case.03:46
itsnotabigtrucklibc6, etc.03:46
djszapithat would be plain silly and useless.03:46
itsnotabigtruckyou should be able to just take the list debhelper generated and remove all the kde stuff03:46
djszapiyou clearly do not understand what the dh rule is about :)03:46
itsnotabigtruckthen paste it back into control03:46
djszapihuh ?03:46
itsnotabigtruckthe problem is that debhelper (correctly) detected dependencies, but those dependencies are shipped with your package - so you need to exclude /those/ dependencies but not any of the others03:47
itsnotabigtruckso a) build, b) use dpkg -I foo.deb, c) take the Depends line and paste it into debian/control03:48
itsnotabigtruckd) remove the entries for all the libs you ship with the package03:48
itsnotabigtrucke) rebuild the package03:48
djszapino real need to waste my time for fun03:48
djszapiand re-test evertyhing.03:48
itsnotabigtruckit's not about fun, it's about correctness, and if ovi qa was really about qa they'd fail packaging discrepancies like that03:49
itsnotabigtruckdebian would03:49
djszapinot really.03:51
djszapiand I actually found the real issue03:51
djszapiwhich was a missing tab character, so it works now anyway03:51
djszapiso why to mess up for fun ?03:51
djszapiespecially because I do not need any dependencies which is not available on the platform by default.03:53
itsnotabigtruckbecause "it works now" but only with the cheap workaround hack03:54
djszapiI do not seriously understand your point03:54
itsnotabigtruckand what the dependencies do is e.g. prevent somebody from installing it on their desktop pc03:54
djszapiyou say, Nokia will take qt-components off in 1.3 ?03:54
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djszapior what ?03:54
djszapiI really do not follow.03:54
itsnotabigtruckwell, suppose the user removed mp-harmattan-whatever, marked everything as manually installed, and selectively removed stuff they don't want03:55
djszapiwho said I support desktop ?03:55
djszapievery day use case :D :D03:55
djszapifor an average user I target :D03:55
djszapiif a user does, he has much bigger issues anyway03:56
itsnotabigtruckthe point is that there's the halfassed way and the official debian policy-compliant way03:56
itsnotabigtruckand you seem to have this idea that as long as ovi qa accepts it nothing is wrong03:56
djszapibecause who enjoys wasting the time for fun ?03:56
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djszapiif you do, go for it, and change03:56
itsnotabigtruckyou do realize you've spent more time bitching about my solution, than it would take to actually implement it03:56
itsnotabigtruckyou talk about wasting time, i'm suggesting a 1 minute copy-paste job03:57
djszapiyou bitched03:57
djszapiI do not care.03:57
djszapithen why don't you do if it bugs you ?03:57
djszapiinstead of talking to me about I am not interested in ? :)03:57
itsnotabigtruckyou don't care so much that you spend hours arguing with me over silly stuff (to be fair, i'm also spending hours arguing with you)03:57
djszapiplease stop talking to me about this useless03:57
djszapiit is just waste of time for both of us ...03:58
djszapipatches are welcome, period.03:58
djszapiand no, it is not one minute03:59
djszapiI should retest it on all images, that I do not even have access anymore03:59
djszapiso it would kinda impossible to re-test the changes.03:59
djszapiso I would even reject your patch even if it is not tested thoroughly as previously.03:59
djszapiunless it is tested*04:00
itsnotabigtrucktoo bad there's no way to patch in having discipline in your code04:01
djszapiieatlint: do you have phone and ssh connection by hand to test the package ?04:04
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: and actually doing your workflow for many packages, is quite error prone04:08
djszapisince if it is something is missing, you are not any forward04:08
djszapiyou are in the same situation04:08
djszapiand it is not unusual having 10+ depencies from the ground up04:09
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djszapiI have 15-20+ dependencies in my case, I need to remove 5-6 so if I mess up just one among 5-10 packages, kinda sucks.04:10
djszapiand this is vastly an error-prone process for no real gain.04:11
djszapiand probably maintenance hell as well once I update the package.04:11
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: reading material for you:
* itsnotabigtruck reads04:25
itsnotabigtruckthat doesn't seem to be particularly related, unless it's just to say that debian people don't care about the real world04:25
itsnotabigtruckit looks like cdbs does have parallel building, too, it just has to be opted into?04:25
djszapithat is what I think you do.04:26
djszapior well, you do not do :)04:26
djszapino offense.04:26
djszapiI was always respecting the debian rules in the beginning even if they had not made sense.04:26
djszapilike, please wait 5 hours for kdelibs with -j1 instead of just using -j504:27
djszapiand waiting 1 hour that way04:27
djszapiharmattan is just not debian.04:27
itsnotabigtruckwhat if you just stick DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=parallel=5 at the top of your rules file04:27
djszapithe technical implementation is not the point.04:28
djszapiI am just saying their principles do not make any sense for certain Harmattan cases04:28
itsnotabigtruckit's not like i'm worshipping the debian policy, they've definitely got some issues on their end...but the dependency fields are there for a reason, it's not that difficult to use them, and it could help avoid some problems04:28
djszapiwhich is not their mistake since it is of course a distinct platform.04:29
djszapinot really04:29
djszapifor 5-10 packages x 20 dependencies => editing manually and re-test everywhere for no gain is a maintenance hell04:29
itsnotabigtruckand as it stands somebody could download kanagram, double-click it on their ubuntu pc, and hit the button and it would probably try to install it, because it's not declared that it requires any harmattan stuff04:29
djszapinobody did yet04:30
djszapinot just for kanagram but anything else using the same policy.04:30
djszapiin the last 1-2 years04:30
djszapiso why bother with maintenance hell, if there is no request ?04:30
itsnotabigtruckyou keep talking about this 'retest everywhere''s highly doubtful it'll cause a problem unless you fool around with the minimum version bounds, and besides, you were just asking that people test your debs04:31
itsnotabigtruckmaybe there's a more proper way to exclude certain packages from ${shlibs:Depends}04:31
djszapiyou did not clearly take tests seriously yet04:31
djszapitests are exactly against trusting.04:31
djszapiactually that is the main purpose of tests04:32
djszapito avoid trust.04:32
itsnotabigtruckyou have to trust that your tests cover every case, and that's never true04:32
itsnotabigtrucktests don't prove something's correct, they only prove that something passes the tests04:33
djszapino, you do not have to04:33
djszapiwait, there is a good book about testing from a guru, it might worth reading it04:33
djszapiI loved that book, at least04:33
djszapi"The art of Unit Testing" or so, I recommend that to you04:33
djszapiI think the guy also have videos avialable for free. Really good ones.04:34
itsnotabigtrucktesting is a useful tool but in the last few years people have been picking it up like a cargo cult04:34
djszapiunfortunately they actually do not pick it up enough.04:34
itsnotabigtruckpassing unit tests != proper software04:34
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itsnotabigtruckand obsessing over unit tests can adversely affect actually making good software04:35
itsnotabigtruckand it seems like people either don't do unit tests, or obsess over them04:35
djszapi passing unit tests != proper software -> that is the whole point of testing (note, I am not only speaking about unit tests)04:35
djszapiif it passes, we can trust04:35
itsnotabigtrucklike i just said, tests check if you pass the test04:35
djszapireally, I recommend you that guy from Israel.04:36
djszapihe made a very cool book and many movies.04:36
itsnotabigtruckthere's an infinite number of ways you can screw up that will get past the tests04:36
djszapiand that is exactly the point to avoid.04:37
itsnotabigtrucklike, for example, sabotaging debhelper into producing packages with bogus dependency lines04:37
djszapistarting with not having tests at all...04:37
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: anyway, you are welcome to test the app. I pushed to OVI, already, but still04:47
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: eh, toss the deb up somewhere and i'll load it up04:56
itsnotabigtrucki've got homework to procrastinate!04:56
itsnotabigtruckjpwhiting: still around?05:08
itsnotabigtruck(probably not, the whole firmware discussion was a long time ago)05:09
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: just ping me when you have time since I would not like to upload it permanently.06:13
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djszapirzr: -> it is shipped by Nokia proper, so libtiff4-dev is history.06:48
djszapirzr: libvorbis is also shipped  by Nokia, so that one is also gone06:50
djszapilibselinux package in the community repository lol :)06:51
djszapirzr: m4 is available in the repository, that is also now gone.06:53
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djszapiso how is running nemo mobile on N950 ?07:33
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djszapiX-Fade ping10:47
djszapiwhat repositories does the app4meego (client) accept for packaging in case nemo ?10:47
djszapiwondering where to put the kdelibs package to in order to get it realized by apps4meego as a dependency for kde apps.10:48
X-FadeCheck which repo it compiles against.10:48
X-FadeI guess it should be there?10:49
X-Fade*go there10:49
djszapiX-Fade: can you join #nemomobile for a short discussion about it ?10:49
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Hq`is it possible to have package dependencies in nokia store?11:01
djszapibut you cannot push dependencies to the "apps" repository.11:02
djszapiso if you have a dependency not being there, you need to pack up.11:02
Hq`I was thinking about depending on openssh-client11:03
Hq`it's already in some nokia repo since it comes with developer mode11:03
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djszapiyes, it is coming iirc from openssh-client11:03
djszapiso that should be okay.11:03
Hq`but I wonder if the dependency works with devices that don't have developer mode enabled11:04
djszapiHq`: yes11:04
Hq`ok, good11:04
itsnotabigtruckHq`: well, enabling developer mode just installs a bunch of packages11:06
itsnotabigtruckaegis-dev-mode is the only one that really controls the developer mode-ness of the phone11:07
Hq`yeah, but I was not sure if it also enables a separate repository where they come from11:07
itsnotabigtruckbut the other stuff could be installed in any combination11:07
itsnotabigtruckyeah, nah, it's from the regular repo11:07
djszapiHq`: no worries, you are good to go :)11:07
itsnotabigtruckit would be nice to have a proper version of ssh...5.1 is ancient11:07
* itsnotabigtruck wants elliptic curve cryptography11:16
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grigrrr, qt-components' MenuLayout was not made with one thing in mind: hiding an item :(11:47
djszapigri: no wonder :D11:48
griyeah, dynamic menus were not invented at that time :P (well technically it's possible but I don't like the way)11:50
djszapino worries, they did not fix many "bugs" in qml2 either, checked out :)11:50
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rzrdjszapi: no pb to rm then12:11
rzrdjszapi: i am busy this week12:11
djszapirzr: I am cleaning up the repo12:11
djszapiI will remove yet another 5-10 packages.12:11
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itsnotabigtruck!/vivainio/status/132563920283111425 that tweet sums up what's wrong with mobile and web dev stuff12:15
itsnotabigtruckthere's people who mean serious business, and there's everyone else, and there's a lot of everyone else12:16
petteriI don't really get the tweet, maybe there is not enough context or something12:19
itsnotabigtruckpetteri: oh, just a twitter back and forth with the usual suspects whining about aegis to a nokia technical marketing person12:20
itsnotabigtruckbut the point is, everything's built so the 50 developers can make canned apps for the 10000 users12:21
itsnotabigtrucknot-so-ambitious devs making not-so-ambitious apps for not-so-ambitious users12:22
itsnotabigtruckand it's not just nokia of course, it's the trend12:22
itsnotabigtruckthat's why it's depressing12:22
petterilike the trend :P I see a lot of eagis whiners having access to N950, but not giving anything usable back to "community"12:23
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itsnotabigtruckpetteri: well, that's the thing12:24
itsnotabigtruckbut that doesn't mean the aegis whiners are wrong12:24
djszapimost of the time they are wrong.12:25
petterifor my point it means, good N950s going to waste12:25
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djszapithat is what I also mentioned last July or so; there were many people who would have been okay with certain shortcomings and produced awesome things back instead of having the phones for whiners.12:26
admiral0oh, here we go again12:27
djszapino please, do not start it all over again.12:27
admiral0djszapi: you are a minority12:28
admiral0we will crush you12:28
admiral0#netbeans dudes ignore me :(12:28
djszapiquantity does not matter, just quality :)12:29
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cyrus-n9hey guys. i cant update rss feed. how to check is downloading working or not?14:12
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cyrus-n9maybe in terminal14:36
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petterino idea, maybe try to access the rss address with browser14:54
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blacktassHi all. Anybody here who was succeed with installing qt5 packages from qtwebkit team on pr1.2 device?15:26
blacktassdjszapi: I can't install them. Aegis throws a lot of errors like Aegis rejecting /var/cache/apt/archives/qt5-base_5.0.0~20120209b2_armel.deb: package 'qt5-base' origin cannot be determined  -- signature check failed15:29
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djszapiblacktass: have you followed this ?
blacktassdjszapi: yep, I used this script ( and it throwed me that errors. I'm trying to install it at n950 pr1.2 with developer mode switched on15:57
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djszapiX-Fade figured out why packages do not get published ?16:06
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djszapiblacktass: I would love to help, but I am full of loaded atm :/16:38
djszapiperhaps tonight, if you do not get it fixed16:38
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djszapifaenil: so how stable is this nemo thingie ?16:41
faenilhaven't used it much because it has some big drawbacks such as lack of working battery indicator16:42
faenilon N95016:42
djszapireally ? It worked one year ago with the meego DE.16:42
faenilyeah it stopped working don't know when16:42
faenilthen it's not integrated with qtcreator yet, so it's uncomfortable as a dev env16:45
djszapino qtcreator ?! ?! </316:45
faenilwell you can use qt creator and template qtquick app, but the green arrow won't work :D16:46
* djszapi would like to have a qtcreator-less platform.16:46
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faenilwhy would you, it's so nice16:47
faenilomg twitter web interface just changed16:49
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grifaenil: yeah, into something worse16:53
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faenilgri: nah just need to get used to it :)16:54
griI don't like the way messages are now expanded16:54
griyou have to find your message again to collapse the conversation16:55
faenilyeah that's true16:55
djszapifaenil: so is nemo actually any useful ?16:56
djszapiis it worth spending my time with writing/porting on app onto it ? How much userbase they have ?16:56
faenildjszapi: not to the average user I guess16:56
faenillittle userbase afaik16:56
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faenilI'm writing qmlgallery just to contribute, because I like having the chance of working on an almost fully open OS16:56
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djszapialmost ?16:57
faenilbecause I'm not informed16:57
djszapiI thought it is truly open16:57
faenilI said almost because I don't know facts16:57
faenilit should be truly open16:57
djszapiI have just attended to the steering group meeting of theirs today16:58
djszapiso it seems the Open Governance thingie works by them16:58
faeniloh crap I can't think blackberry is pusshing Qt on QNX without PLANNED support for QtMobility...17:00
faenilthat's just crazy...ahhahahaha17:00
faenilI had such a big laugh today about that17:01
djszapiqtmobility really needs love.17:02
faenilhow do expect people to work on mobile apps if they don't give them the possibility to? LOL17:05
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faenilhow do they*17:08
itsnotabigtruckfaenil: not sure what the big deal about that is17:08
itsnotabigtrucksure it might make it harder to port stuff, but qtmobility's only a small part of the api17:08
faenilbut it's a critical part when building mobile-oriented apps17:09
itsnotabigtruckalso the other thing is rim doesn't control qtmobility, nokia does17:09
itsnotabigtruckso the qtmobility apis aren't going to be aligned to what rim's os has17:09
itsnotabigtruckit's probably better that those sorts of things be platform specific anyway17:10
faenildon't's their task to make a nice mapping between the two17:10
itsnotabigtruckoften nice mappings are impossible17:11
itsnotabigtrucke.g. what if rim has their own contact data layout, porting qtmobility means forcing that into whatever nokia did17:11
itsnotabigtruckand apis lie qtmobility are supposed to be generic in theory but they never are17:11
faenilI agree with you, but this way you won't attract qt developers17:12
itsnotabigtruckwell it's cool to hear rim is going qt...17:15
itsnotabigtruckmaybe they'll buy out qt if nokia gets bored with it17:15
itsnotabigtruckwhich is a real risk now that they've killed off all their platforms that can possibly use it17:15
faenilI wouldn't say that before MWC ;)17:16
itsnotabigtrucknokia never launches anything at mwc, and besides, it's not like their strategy is about to change17:17
itsnotabigtruckwp7 = new high end, symbian and s40 = cookiecutter boringphones17:18
djszapiX-Fade ping, ping and ping :)17:18
itsnotabigtruckharmattan = run over by a truck17:18
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faenilitsnotabigtruck: I'd wait, you know, just in case ;)17:19
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djszapiX-Fade lbt what is the current time on c-obs ?18:19
djszapimmh, it is probably utc18:20
lbtit's wrong for sure18:20
djszapiinterestingly enough my package did not get updated since 05:0418:20
djszapi05:44, even if it is 16:2018:21
djszapiwas built 1-2 hours ago18:21
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djszapirzr: ping18:33
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djszapilbt: mmm, obs does not seem to handle 300 MB orig.tar.gz upload :)18:45
djszapiat least not on the webinterface.18:45
* lbt is astonished!18:45
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lbtI will say that moving towards git rather than tarballs will make this much more sane18:47
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lbtbut that's not a useful answer for the next few weeks18:47
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xmlich02hi i was trying to port my meego (qt-components based app) to maemo and i have problem with device orientation. In landscape mode application works well, but in portrait mode is visible only part of window and the cursor (touch) is gives also rotated response..18:51
djszapiwhat do you mean ?18:51
djszapilbt ^18:51
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GeneralAntillesDamn, between 1.5 and 2 millions N9s in Q4.18:52
lbtwe'll be working on a way to use git rather than upload tarballs18:53
faenileven though the report says 600k N9s were shipped in Q418:53
faenilwho knows where the rest comes from?18:53
abinaderdjszapi: I guess he means when he touches the screen and receives QPos(100, 200) in landscape, when he touches the same pos in portrait it goes QPos(200, 100)18:53
abinaderxmlich02: is it? ^18:53
xmlich02abinader, looks like it18:54
djszapiabinader: I asked lbt :)18:54
abinaderdjszapi: oh :)18:54
djszapilbt: don't osc already use vcs, and so the website use that in the background ?18:54
lbtyes but that's an internal detail18:55
djszapilbt: still submitting after half an hour :P oxygen-icons is unfortunately around 300 MB :/18:57
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djszapilbt done incredible, let us have a drink :D19:04
djszapilbt I wonder why the PA team did not truncate it out for the needed icons only.19:05
lbtyeah - that would be nice19:06
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djszapiGeneralAntilles: link ?19:08
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petteriso anyone porting isis browser to harmattan: http://isis-project.org19:23
djszapiErr... no developer mode switch over 3g ? :/19:34
rm_workGeneralAntilles: wait what?19:38
rm_workGeneralAntilles: that's how many they sold? i don't actually know if that is a high or low number <_<19:38
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: what do you mean19:39
itsnotabigtruckof course it should work, it just apt-gets some stuff19:39
itsnotabigtruckmaybe your connection is on the fritz?19:39
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: no I can surf.19:40
djszapiand the developer switch is turned off. Basically the same as with the maps application.19:40
djszapiwhen I try to fetch a package for a country.19:40
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: what happens if you try to install something off ovistore19:40
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itsnotabigtruckhopefully this is just some misconfig something and not self-sabotaging behavior at the behest of carriers19:42
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DocScrutinizer51GeneralAntilles: usercount #n9 XP19:43
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DocScrutinizer51GeneralAntilles: btw HI, long time no see19:43
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itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: also do you ever get any sort of error message saying downloading over wireless is prohibitado or some such?19:45
djszapi"Update failed".19:45
djszapiTry again.19:45
djszapieven from wi-fi :/19:46
itsnotabigtruckwell, if it happens over wi-fi also then i doubt it's hinging on being wireless...19:47
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djszapiI have no clue what to do19:47
djszapiapart from reflashing.19:47
itsnotabigtruckinstall meecatalog from ovi19:48
itsnotabigtruckinstall meego terminal from meecatalog19:48
djszapiunknown error for signing in my account19:49
djszapiI have the gut feeling it is some date/time issue19:49
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djszapioh yes19:49
djszapithe date is the future19:49
itsnotabigtruckyou said downloading maps over 3g is disallowed?19:50
djszapiactually, not 30.03.201119:50
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: was for me19:50
itsnotabigtruckyup, it is19:50
DocScrutinizer51benefits of aegis19:50
itsnotabigtruck"Connect to a Wi-Fi network to download maps"19:50
itsnotabigtruckthere's probably a way to circumvent that...i'll probably do it on principle19:51
itsnotabigtruckyou wouldn't download a map! screw you i would if i could19:51
DocScrutinizer51dang my 3G downstream is triple as fat as my DSL19:52
itsnotabigtruckbtw what's a good way to speed test the N9's connection19:52
djszapiok meegopas is downloaded19:52
djszapiso at least I can now head to home :)19:52
itsnotabigtrucksince the speed test in the ovi store is completely broken19:52
itsnotabigtruckhas somebody packaged iperf for n9?19:52
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: dedicated website ?19:52
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: web speed tests are super unreliable19:53
itsnotabigtruckall the ones that are actually reliable use flash19:53
itsnotabigtruckwhich is obviously a no go19:53
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djszapiworked for me...19:53
djszapiquite exactly.19:53
djszapieven I could get flash work19:53
djszapibut non-flash sites were also ok19:54
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itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: then what's one that produced accurate results19:55
djszapiheh splitnode19:55
itsnotabigtruckalmost all the non-flash ones are "mobile" tests that use some tiny file19:55
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itsnotabigtruckmeaning the result is all noise19:55
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: no clue by heart, first results in google.19:55
itsnotabigtrucke.g. 500 ms latency + 10 kb file = bs result19:56
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: what to do with meego terminal btw ?19:57
DocScrutinizer51itsnotabigtruck: that's why the websites I know are using different sizes for the test downloads19:57
DocScrutinizer51and also try to evaluate latency19:57
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DocScrutinizer51HEH, is this now best common practice to reboot freenode services each evening 1900 CET?19:58
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itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: well, see if you can apt-get update20:01
itsnotabigtruckalso if you manage to get that far, then the problem is really weird since you can access the internet then :p20:01
itsnotabigtruckdid fixing the time fix it?20:01
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ZogG_laptopblack_tass: =*20:43
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draglyAnyone here familiar with DBus calls and how to find services? I'm trying to make a phone call from my app, but am only able to open the dialer through the interface.20:59
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: any other clue ? :P21:06
djszapiX-Fade ping21:08
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draglyhm, I figured qdbus was of some help, and ended up trying qdbus /Call Com.Nokia.Telephony.CallUi.Call , but this only gives me "Call Ended"21:21
fralsdbus-monitor while starting a call from contacts would be my bet21:21
tommacant remember what the right method was but think it was in
draglyah, dbus-monitor shows the method NewCall and not Call. I'll see if I can figure out the arguments.21:28
draglyhuh, I get No such method 'NewCall' in interface 'Com.Nokia.Telephony.CallUi'21:29
draglybut it is listed by qdbus if I type qdbus /Call21:30
draglyoops, it is a signal, not a method21:30
tommaqdbus /Call Com.Nokia.Telephony.CallUi.Call "" "<number>"21:33
draglyThanks tomma, but that only gives me a notification on the screen saying "Call ended". Does it start a call on your device?21:35
tommahmm... doesn't seem to work21:37
tommasame with requestcall21:38
draglyperhaps it is not meant to work?21:38
draglyI.e. that it is blocked or something.21:39
Sazpaimon_has anyone looked at the source for extraplugins?21:39
Sazpaimon_Im wondering if the author actually modified qmlapplicationviewer.cpp or if there's some secret feature of qt creator that I'm missing21:40
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black_tassdjszapi: any chance you have time for that problem with qt5 now?21:58
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djszapiblack_tass: mmh, no sorry I need to polish a qt patch for review.21:59
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MohammadAG<dragly> Anyone here familiar with DBus calls and how to find services? I'm trying to make a phone call from my app, but am only able to open the dialer through the interface.22:04
MohammadAGdragly, same as Maemo 5 DBus, needs aegis token22:05
MohammadAGalso I get a MALF every time I startup: "too frequent reboots22:05
MohammadAGthere's an OK Button that dismisses it though22:05
draglyMohammadAG, this DBus API from Maemo 5, or the I mentioned above?
draglyI can answer that myself , it is the api from the link :)22:09
draglyit works using develsh :)22:09
MohammadAGdragly, I would've answered it if my internet didn't suck :p22:09
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MohammadAGthat's where I wanted to look22:10
draglynice, thanks22:10
MohammadAGanyway, you need an Aegis token yeah22:10
MohammadAGone more thing22:10
MohammadAGafaik my request was denied22:10
MohammadAGSo it might be ovi-only22:10
draglycan I test my app with the Aegis token?22:10
SqRt7744evopedia for harmattan is up for grabs! Thanks to Iktwo for a really nice QML UI, whoever wants it can get it here:
MohammadAGnot sure, your request might be denied when installing the package22:11
draglyAh, well, I was thinking about Ovi in any case. I could make it open the dialer instead if I need a non-Ovi version.22:11
MohammadAGcracking aegis is a saner way :p22:11
draglyhehe, I haven't messed with aegis yet - thankfully...22:12
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Venemo_N950Jaffa, ping22:13
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admiral0__kdevelop + scratchbox = <322:21
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Sazpaimon_you know what's funny22:29
Sazpaimon_I see a lot of hate towards N9 on TMO, but an equal amount of people asking "how do I make my N900 ____ like on the N9"22:30
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Venemo_N950Sazpaimon_, why're you surprised?22:32
Venemo_N950hey admiral0 :)22:32
admiral0how are you Venemo_N95022:33
Venemo_N950admiral0, I've fixed the bugs in the Italian translation! :) Thank you for finding them!22:33
Venemo_N950also, the app is now in Ovi Store! :)22:34
Venemo_N950a few months late, but better late than never22:35
Venemo_N950admiral0, also, I'm refactoring IRC Chatter's code22:38
admiral0i've been busy today too22:39
Venemo_N950that's an empty page22:39
Sazpaimon_also on a side note22:40
Sazpaimon_i could not make heads or tails of the accounts ui and telepathy22:40
Sazpaimon_i may need to hope someone else can make a steam chat account plugin22:41
Venemo_N950me either, although I haven't bothered much22:41
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Sazpaimon_if anyone is ever interested I posted some .NET code which allows one to communicate wih steam over their web API and a standard SSL connection22:42
Sazpaimon_I'd write it in python but I dont know if telepathy-python apps can be submitted to nokia22:42
Sazpaimon_and then there's the accounts-ui22:42
Venemo_N950what's steam?22:43
Venemo_N950never heard of it22:44
Sazpaimon_it's valve's gaming disribution platform22:44
Sazpaimon_almost every company that publishes games use steam now22:45
Sazpaimon_but i also has a very popular social networking interface22:45
Venemo_N950aaah, I wasn't aware22:45
Sazpaimon_with voice chat, group chats and the like22:45
Sazpaimon_im surprised you never heard of it, I think they peak at 5 million users a day22:46
Sazpaimon_I guess if you don't play computer games it isn't useful to you22:47
Venemo_N950I only play Starcraft 2 and I play it very rarely22:47
Sazpaimon_but yeah, anyone that uses steam for games uses it for chat too22:47
Venemo_N950Recently I don't have time for gaming.22:48
Venemo_N950I used to play a lot in my highschool years.22:48
Sazpaimon_I don't either, but sinc all of my friends use either steam or IRC for chat it'd be pretty useful to have available22:48
Venemo_N950nowadays I'm just hunting bugs instead of zerglings... :D22:49
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Venemo_N950anyway, I'm going to sleep now22:56
Venemo_N950check out Puzzle Master in the Ovi Store! :)22:56
Venemo_N950cheers & bye :)22:56
Sazpaimon_who has time for games22:56
Venemo_N950I've had time for Puzzle Master :P22:57
Sazpaimon_seriously though, if anyone here who knows more about telepathy/account manager than I could possibly make an account/telepathy plugin for this:
Sazpaimon_I would greatly appreciate it22:58
Venemo_N950djszapi is a telepathy fan, that much I know.22:58
Venemo_N950anyway, goodbye :)22:58
Sazpaimon_he said he was too busy :(22:59
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Sazpaimon_I think he's just mad because i stopped testing Kanagram22:59
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bambee_Hi, I got a nokia n9 recently and since a factory reset :  I cannot install an app , I cannot activate the developer mode, I cannot upgrade meego --> each time I try to install something it fails with "installation interrupted"23:16
draglyMohammadAG, thanks for the hints! It is working in my app now :) Even though I have to pass the DBus message as a QProcess call at the moment.23:19
draglybambee_, I don't know if there are other options, but maybe flashing it completely will help23:21
bambee_the hardware is not flashed when you make an factory reset ?23:22
itsnotabigtruckbambee_: nope23:22
itsnotabigtruckalso apparently the "factory reset" feature is slightly infamous for screwing up phones23:22
itsnotabigtruckyou need to 1) retrieve the firmware images for your phone23:23
itsnotabigtruck2) install the flasher 3.12.1 utility from nokia23:23
itsnotabigtruck3) flash it23:23
draglybambee_, in addition, after reflashing, don't restore settings before enabling dev. mode23:23
draglyYou'll see this has come up before:
draglySearch for installation interrupted in that log ;)23:24
itsnotabigtruckthe flasher command is going to look like23:24
draglyif anything fails after restoring settings after enabling dev. mode you'll at least have access to a terminal (and hopefully SSH over USB)23:24
itsnotabigtruckflasher -F main.bin -F emmc.bin --erase-user-data=secure -R23:25
itsnotabigtruckpossibly add --erase-mmc=secure23:25
itsnotabigtruckyou probably don't need the --erase stuff if you don't want to expunge the phone of all traces of data23:26
itsnotabigtruckthere's probably a non-secure erase that's faster23:26
bambee_thanks for your help :)23:26
itsnotabigtruckoh, also23:27
itsnotabigtruckif you go the reflash route23:27
itsnotabigtruckmake sure to get the currect regional variant (001, 003, etc.)23:28
itsnotabigtruckalso if you do the emmc, make sure to get the version that includes the maps you want23:28
Sazpaimon_I wouldnt trust --erase-mmc=secure23:31
Sazpaimon_the fat32 data will still be there23:32
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Sazpaimon_unless they did like a multi-pass erase which would kill the mmc23:32
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itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon_: one or two erase passes isn't going to kill teh flash23:34
Sazpaimon_two erase passes isn't a secure erase23:35
Sazpaimon_if somthing is labeled as secure erase it should be DoD 5220 or better23:36
Sazpaimon_maybe at least 7 passes23:36
mgedminand a flamethrower23:36
mgedminto be sure23:37
Sazpaimon_I dont know the protocol for flash media23:37
itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon_: 7 pass erase isn't useful for anything23:39
itsnotabigtruckon a hard drive, a 3 pass erase is all the overkill you could want23:39
itsnotabigtruckand i believe that's what the newer dod standard calls for23:39
itsnotabigtruckthough if the dod wants to get rid of something important, they don't bother with silly overwrites23:39
itsnotabigtruckbut if the emmc does its own wear leveling there's no guarantee that any number of write passes will expunge everything23:40
itsnotabigtruckhowever, if the emmc doesn't have too many spare blocks, 1 pass ought to be enough to expunge the vast majority of the data23:41
itsnotabigtruckbtw it looks like the alternative to "secure" erase is "quick" erase23:42
itsnotabigtruckas in --erase-user-data=quick23:42
Sazpaimon_[16:39] <itsnotabigtruck> though if the dod wants to get rid of something important, they don't bother with silly overwrites23:42
Sazpaimon_yeah, thermite is all you need to erase your data23:42
Sazpaimon_not just from the hard drive, from existance23:43
itsnotabigtruckfor hard drives i think normally they use NSA approved degaussers23:43
itsnotabigtruckbut those are kinda expensive23:43
Sazpaimon_thermite is more fun to watch23:43
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itsnotabigtruck ooh23:49
itsnotabigtruckpage 4 covers flash memory devices23:50
itsnotabigtruckok, so the nsa manual seems to specify a simple 1 pass overwrite with a non-random pattern23:51
itsnotabigtruckthen verifying23:51
itsnotabigtruckhowever that's in the absence of wear leveling23:51
itsnotabigtruckwear leveling makes everything complicated23:51
Sazpaimon_i like smelting better23:51
itsnotabigtruckor is that to be done before the smelting, lol23:52
itsnotabigtrucknah, it's either-or heh23:52
Sazpaimon_hoestly, if you smelt something you're not getting that data back23:52
Sazpaimon_remind me to buy a smelter23:52
Sazpaimon_in case the fbi breaks down my door, I'll set up an automated system to drop my desk into the smelter23:53
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