IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2012-01-24

Corsachmhm, I forgot how impressive the N9 was without the second skin00:01
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mgedminthat rubber thing?00:37
mgedminI put it on, looked at it, took it off00:37
mgedminlive fast die young (and pretty)00:37
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rm_workthe Lumia 800 is actually quite pretty too, but the screen scratches if you look at it wrong <_<00:59
rm_worki had it for two days using it somewhat minimally and mine has several largish scratches on it00:59
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TronicWhat's the difference between 800 and 900?01:02
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rm_workmissing a lot of features i think01:09
rm_work800 doesn't have NFC...01:10
rm_workalso, LTE01:10
rm_workand the screen is larger on the 90001:12
rm_workand the 900 has a larger battery01:12
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Milhouse@rm_work: no gorilla glass on lumia 800?01:44
Milhouse@rm_work: the n9 has gorilla glass for sure (maybe the n950 too? my n950 glass is still pristine)01:45
TronicI've got no scratches on my Lumia 800 even though I haven't been careful with it.01:46
rm_workYes, 800 HAS gorilla glass01:47
rm_workstill scratched01:47
Milhousethat's bad luck01:48
rm_workI think what happened was01:48
rm_workit got set down on a table face down01:48
rm_workand then someone bumped it and it slid01:48
rm_workand the glass actually sticks out from the frame, so it was sitting 100% on the glass >_>01:48
Milhousestill wouldn't expect that to be a problem unless the table was covered in grit... seen some mad key scratching having no effect on GG01:48
rm_workit's not a very deep scratch01:49
rm_workand not noticible really when the screen is on01:49
rm_workbut it's definitely noticable if it's off01:49
rm_workand now there are more scratches than just that one01:49
rm_workthat was the first day01:49
rm_worknow i'm on like day 401:49
rm_workor day 501:49
Milhousei doubt mine will ever leave the house... unlike my n95001:50
rm_worki am actually liking winmo7.5 >_>01:50
rm_workprobably going to switch to ATT so i can actually USE it01:50
rm_workn950 is great, but i miss things like... you know... usable apps01:50
rm_workthat i don't write myself01:50
rm_workif i switch, i instantly get: Netflix, Spotify, Mobile Deposits for my bank (USAA), Yelp, better facebook integration...01:51
rm_workfaster nokia maps01:51
rm_workwith voice navigation now01:51
rm_workthe software for N9(50) just... isn't there.01:52
rm_workthe only way I had Pandora on my N950 was by porting the app myself from N90001:52
Milhousedepends, the software you want isn't there - i'm perfectly happy with mine, guess we have different requirements01:53
rm_workWell, I'01:53
rm_workI'll definitely miss "Terminal"01:53
rm_workthe ssh client i found for winmo sucks :/01:53
rm_workand i'll miss the hardware keyboard -- was a dealbreaker for me, until this phone -- somehow i can actually use this vkbd... android/ios vkbd are CRAP but this thing works01:53
Milhousei'm appalled you can't even use the lumia as a mass storage device without installing zune bloatware...01:53
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rm_workyeah :(01:53
rm_workbut WITH that, it integrates much better with windows01:54
rm_workthan the n950 did with the nokia software01:54
rm_workanyway I gotta head home... bbl <_<01:54
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rafael2khi there people, have anyone managed to compile the kernel with the max threshold of the cpu freq increased?03:23
rafael2kSDK_Sources_PR1.1.ISO <-03:24
rafael2kis this the file?03:24
rafael2kkernel_2.6.32-20113701.10+0m6.tar.gz  <-03:25
rafael2k; )03:25
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rafael2knobody with an overclock enabled kernel, really?03:30
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coffetimedoes anyone know04:39
coffetimehow to deploy to /home/user/private04:40
coffetimeunder same id as app's04:40
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djszapiHeh, ToolIcon is more powerful than I thought, just underdocumented about its properties :(09:02
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jonnirafael2k: compilation part is easy, running it stable is the hard part as some components just start to crash on higher speeds. But feel free to compile it yourself and try it out.09:15
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matrixxj mer09:27
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* auenf checks watch10:02
auenfumm, morning...10:02
gabriel9it's morning :)10:03
auenfchange the first 0 to a 110:03
gabriel9or new zelend10:04
auenfUS live in the past10:04
auenfnz live in the future10:04
auenfi assume you are GMT-1 ?10:05
auenfoh wait, DST10:05
gabriel9GMT +110:05
auenfyea, +110:05
gabriel9UTC +1 :)10:06
gabriel9damn this time zones10:06
auenfforgot its DST here still10:06
gabriel9here is also10:08
gabriel9i think10:08
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gabriel9we change the clocks for one hour10:08
gabriel9republic serbska, part of the bih10:16
auenfwouldnt it be winter where you are?10:16
auenfthen it cant be DST atm :P10:17
gabriel9oh, you are right10:17
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gabriel9but we are changed clock10:17
auenfyea, you would have changed it back10:17
auenfotherwise you'll just keep moving the clock until its dark all day, and light all night :P10:18
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gabriel9i don't know10:18
gabriel9i just know that i come one hour earlier on work one day10:18
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SqRt7744is there a way for qt-components for harmattan to be used in a desktop compilation?  (for testing purposes)13:08
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tommaSqRt7744, yes you need to install it to desktop
SqRt7744tomma, thanks. It's downloading now. Is there an easy way to add it to the SDK??13:20
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griPR 1.0 qt-components ship with the normal QtSDK, no need to compile them13:24
gri(for desktop)13:25
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SqRt7744gri, wierd, it wasn't working before, but i grabbed the latest git sources and installed them and it works perfectly. super happy about this.13:45
SqRt7744makes testing way faster and easier13:46
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djszapi -> Hi, what do I do wrong about the simple Switch element in a rectangle on a page ?14:07
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gridjszapi: "switch" is a keyword14:10
griyou can't use it as id14:10
djszapigri: tell it to the example then :)14:11
griqt examples often contain errors :)14:11
xarcassdjszapi: i've thought that component loading is asynchronous, so i'd rather made onStatusChanged: handler for it14:11
djszapigri: mr sent :)14:15
djszapithanks !14:16
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djszapiHas anybody already made a settings page with Harmattan components ?14:28
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xarcassdjszapi: i'm not completely sure that i've properly parsed your question: do you mean some kind of settings dialog inside an app, or settings plugin which goes into phone's "Settings" app?14:47
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djszapiI meant to say settings page.14:57
djszapiI do not need any integration with the global one.14:57
djszapibut it does not matter after all as long as both versions would be just a page.14:58
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admiral0djszapi: ping15:00
xarcassdjszapi: then i don't know what's so special about settings dialog.. i've made several - just ordinary thing..15:00
djszapiadmiral0: pont15:00
admiral0djszapi: invalid response15:00
djszapithen pint ;-)15:00
admiral0djszapi: i'm packaging a py script15:00
admiral0does it need any aegis manifest?15:01
djszapixarcass: the special issue is that, it is nice if setting pages look uniform...15:01
admiral0it only uses gconfù15:01
admiral0and executes as user15:01
admiral0using upstart for that15:01
djszapiI would like to become a millionaire, do I need an apple ?15:01
djszapidepends on what I do, right ?15:02
xarcassdjszapi: well, I've made it uniform with other app's pages15:02
admiral0the only critical thing, as i told you is gconf15:02
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djszapixarcass: the special issue is that I need i t in qml ...15:02
djszapithe existing ones are not qml.15:02
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djszapiadmiral0: why not try and see ?15:03
djszapiand come back if there are issues ?15:03
admiral0will try15:03
admiral0i start to get debs15:03
xarcassdjszapi: you mean: all the app is not in QML, but you want settings dialog in QML? well, then this is too complicated for me, i'm afraid15:04
djszapithat is not what I meant.15:04
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djszapiexisting setting pages are not written in qml (mostly) afaik.15:04
xarcassdjszapi: then it would involve some amount of dull and boring monkey coding :) I could've send you some pieces of my past work in this area, but i doubt that they will be of any help..15:07
djszapiwell, I have rough idea how to do it, but I would learn from others' work too.15:08
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djszapiI need to find this icon for the selectiondialog, too15:09
djszapithis combined up/down, if you recall it, for instance in the DeviceLock settings.15:10
xarcassdjszapi: doesn't ring a bell.. in my app it's always starts from the menu on the root page15:12
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djszapifaenil: o/15:12
gridjszapi: I think you use merge requesting wrong :) Gitorious does not do cherry-picking because it's stupid ... you have to create a new branch for each merge request, otherwise you submit all other changes again15:13
djszapithat is not any wrong15:13
djszapiit is just comfy, really... The merger guy is fine with this, so why bother ?15:14
griyour one-line merge request also contains all commits for the former merge requests15:14
djszapiagain, why bother if it is nice for both of us ?15:14
xarcassdjszapi: haven't touched this for months.. dunno it it's even working.. and it has russian titles. hope it'll help
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gridjszapi: well I was just saying that it's not easy to distinguish the merge requests. If the merger is fine with this, ok15:15
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djszapiif you were already at it, you could check it he well merged the similar previous ones as well without any issues.15:16
djszapiso why make more work for myself then ?15:16
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gridjszapi: The point was just: I would like gitorious to allow cherry picking :)15:17
djszapiI do not maintain gitorious. ;-)15:18
djszapibtw, I found the icon if anybody is interested in this: icon-m-common-combobox-arrow.png15:21
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djszapiis there a meego themes icon browser btw ?15:22
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djszapigri: also be aware that does not matter what gets into master. It is not a guarantee to be in the release anyway.15:28
griI think I will supply qt-components with my application so it's atleast always compatible :P15:29
djszapinot really.15:30
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djszapithat would actually break my application for instance.15:30
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djszapiis there any reason why I cannot use "LD_LIBRARY_PATH" setting in the Exe line of the desktop file, just as I would run it through the command line thingie ?15:51
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Aardit's not a 'setting', it's an environment variable. and the desktop file parser is only interested in the binary itself, not additional environment variables15:53
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Aarduse a shell wrapper if you need it for some reason15:54
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djszapiAard: that is exactly what people would like to avoid15:55
djszapisince if you use involved libraries you need to write a hacky script which is .. well, uncool.15:55
Aard'if you use involved libraries'?15:56
Aardanyway, you can always use -rpath if you put libraries in non-default-locations15:57
djszapieasier said than done15:57
djszapiespecially if you have more library dependency layers, for instance: qtspecial -> kdecore -> kdeui -> kdedeclarative -> kdeedu -> the real app15:57
djszapiinvolved libraries -> the library dependencies of your package which are not available from the apps "repository".15:58
Iktwohi, is here a way to set a dependency for the package wireless-tools?15:59
Aardin that case just have your libraries install path descriptions to /etc/
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djszapiAard: you mean to say I can install a file in there to amend the LD_* operation ?16:00
Aardinstall files there and call ldconfig, then you'll have all libraries in the additional paths in the ld cache16:00
djszapi(and run the ld conf in a postinst script for sure)16:00
Aardboth LD_LIBRAR_PATH and -rpath are hacks which only should be used in very special circumstances, when you're know what you're doing16:01
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djszapiagree, both are a big hackery.16:03
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djszapiespecially messing up when screwing up with rpath in madde :)16:03
djszapi(a.k.a. qtcreator thingie for instance)16:04
Aardso, if you ship libraries in 3rd party directories you expect others to use -> install something to; if you install a  shared library only for your application it's fine to use -rpath16:04
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djszapiAard: rpath is not doable.16:08
djszapiyou do not really wanna depend on the fact whether or not used proper rpaths in your library dependencies.16:08
djszapione used*16:09
Aarddjszapi: 'if you install a shared library only for your application' -> _you_ have total control over where application and library go, so rpatch works16:09
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khertan1Hello !16:11
djszapiAard: which is of course not the case.16:11
djszapieven on debian a very /huge/ groups package these kde thingy.16:11
djszapibut even if I did it alone, rpath is just really very error-prone, if I miss it somewhere.16:12
djszapiand even if I set it on every layer, setting one envvar is way cleaner.16:12
Aarddjszapi: then the first clause in my sentence applies, which points you to
admiral0djszapi: lol malf16:13
djszapiAard: just tried, ldconf, did not work in the practice.16:13
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nwokihi all. I'm having problems locking my n9 app to landscape view.16:15
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djszapinwoki: you wanna get an app from ovi16:16
nwokiIt seems to do the lock, but my application's view has h: 854 and w: 480 even though in the source code i set the viewerTo->showExpanded()16:16
nwokidjszapi: nope16:16
djszapinwoki: then just use the platform api, what is so hard ? :)16:16
Aarddjszapi: then you're doing something wrong. just tried it on my device to make sure, and it works16:16
Aardyou should find the library names in /etc/ if all worked16:17
nwokidjszapi: that my app doesn't get the correct w and h16:17
djszapiAard: I find it really hackish in comparison with one variable for that session16:17
djszapiyou basically pollute the stuff.16:17
Aardguess why they introduced a config directory for ldconf stuff? to make it easy to throw stuff in16:17
djszapior is it valid only for my session ?16:18
Aardno, it's systemwide16:18
djszapiit is not my way then.16:18
djszapiI would not like to pollute the system-wide thingie just because of my session.16:18
nwokiheight and width are switched for no reason16:18
Aardyou have libraries of no use to other people? then you should really use rpath16:19
djszapiAard: I think you do not know how this thing works.16:19
Aardwhat is 'this thing'?16:19
djszapiAard: I would not like to force anybody for /my/ imported library version.16:20
djszapiit is quite normal on Harmattan and Android apps have the dependency libraries in their /opt/myapp/lib/ hiarchy.16:20
djszapiThey do not share it until there is a size or whatever limitation.16:20
djszapiso the problem mentioned by you does not exist by default.16:20
Aardyes, and from what you said it sounded like you are packaging more complex libraries for reuse16:21
Aardif that's not the case rpath would be the proper solution16:21
djszapiwait, I need to explain it because you do not understand:16:21
djszapithere is a whole bunch of qt and kde stack with many libraries on both sides, and even abstraction on top of that, like kdeedu module, kdegames or what not.16:22
AardI am somewhat familiar with the kde stuff, had the misfortune of packaging some parts of it16:22
djszapithey are packaged by packagers (currently almost only me)16:22
djszapiand what kde app developers do is simply grabbing a version for now because there is only one available version, BUT16:23
djszapithere is also a libkok version on the device by default for the calligra thingie16:23
djszapiso there are already a sort of collide situation.16:23
djszapiso the decision was made at the KDE Harmattan sprint, we try to package into our hierarchy until the size gets limited.16:23
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djszapirpath does not work for several reasons:16:24
djszapiI have not repackaged the whole qt/kde stack for fun. Secondly it is impossible to solve it technically nicely.16:24
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djszapibecause you need to make such hackeries then, like: "DCMAKE_INSTALL_RPATH=/opt/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx \"16:25
djszapi"xxxx..." represent a very long path that you can then override in your kde application16:25
Aardwell, people in this situation on other platforms (like, solaris) _do_ use rpath, it is quite possible, though I know that the kde situation is quite messy16:25
djszapibecause it is not extensible otherwise.16:25
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Aardbut if you don't want that the only option left is a shell wrapper16:26
djszapiit is not about the kde situation16:28
djszapiit is an abstract issue. Do not get me wrong.16:28
djszapiOn the other hand, rpath will just heroically fail in madde, sadly enough.16:28
djszapiand epically.16:28
djszapiso what you did not probably understand is that, there are no such things like shipping a library system-wise16:29
Aardwell, like I said, the proper solution (which is used across all flavours of unix) here would be rpath, if you don't want that for whatever reason you're left with a shell wrapper16:29
djszapiand for good since everybody could start shipping them into anything with many loader path16:29
djszapiand ... that would end up a really messy system.16:29
Aardyes, it sounded to me like you want to have it reuasable, in which case you should use the
djszapiprecisely the opposite.16:30
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djszapiotherwise there would be no real guarantee my library is okay except the situation where we can have a messed up ${X}/lib with many library variants.16:30
djszapiand zillion plugins for sure ... otherwise you can be fairly clean with plugins too.16:31
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djszapiAard: isn't there some variable setting in the desktop file standard ? /me has never checked.16:33
Aardnot that I know of16:35
djszapithat is a pity.16:35
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Biappi"15:35:28: Failed to upload package: Failure "16:36
Biappithere is a way to get more useful diagnostics?16:36
Aardyou're supposed to either have proper rpath settings, or the library configured through your dynamic linker, so for the desktop file standard it does not really make sense to need this option16:37
djszapiAard: When I last checked the standard in Berlin during the KDE Harmattan sprint in November, I did not see such an entry.16:37
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djszapiI do not see how it could not make sense, here is a valid use case for almost all the kde developers16:38
djszapibut then again, it is not just KDE specific issue.16:38
Aardit's a harmattan/meego specific use, usually you don't have different copies of the libraries around permanently16:39
Aard(or if you do you can use rpath)16:39
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djszapino, it is not harmattan/meego specific16:39
djszapiit can be any open mobile linux specific16:39
djszapiI told you many times why we could not use rpath16:40
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Aardat least right now there are not that many mobile linux devices out there which allow 3rd party packages16:40
nwokimm anyone know why "orientationLock: PageOrientation.LockLandscape;" should not work?16:41
Aardand I told you several times if you can't use rpath (which they do for similar situations on other platforms) you'll have to live with a shell wrapper16:41
djszapiwe should have a .mobile file standard :D16:41
djszapiAard: your last sentence does not add much information. That is what I said in the beginning, I would like to avoid16:41
djszapibut apparently, the desktop file standard was decided before the whole mobile concept.16:41
Aardyes, but if you can't use rpath you can't avoid it16:41
djszapithis is not my consequence16:42
djszapiI can avoid it.16:42
djszapimy consequence is what I said: the desktop standard lacks certain features.16:42
Aardno, on other platforms they solve it using rpath, which you don't want16:43
djszapiI highly doubt others prefer nasty hacks.16:44
Aardrpath is not a nasty hack16:44
djszapiwhen you can just set one variable with one additional past.16:44
djszapiit is16:44
djszapiif you do not understand my example above about the very long name hack, please try to dig in the details.16:44
djszapialso, as I said, it is desperate enough with madde and cmake anyway.16:45
djszapiand actually even non-functioning, if the library does not come as expected.16:45
djszapiif the library comes in a wrong way (without a very hackish long rpath setting), you are kind in a situation that you cannot fix.16:46
djszapiand you do not really wanna trust everybody in the world does the cool thing.16:46
AardI thought we were talking about libraries _you_ are providing. there you just need to provide the actual pathnames16:47
djszapiyou really think everybody will build their libraries ?16:48
djszapievery app developer will build his/herdependencies from the ground up ?16:48
djszapino...that is not how their workflow looks like, it is pretty different: they grab the dynamic libraries from the packaged application, for instance this is where OBS or anything else comes to exist.16:49
Aardif you don't you should use the stack linked to the correct libraries, which gives you no problems as well16:49
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djszapiexcept that if you have simultaneous stacks.16:50
Aardyes, but you want to stay inside one, not mix components from different stacks16:50
djszapithat is untrue16:51
djszapisay, I would like to build an educational game, I will use kde-edu and kde-games, right ?16:51
djszapifor instance with plasma components, so I add kde-runtime, too ?16:51
djszapithey are simultaneous stacks.16:51
djszapiand there are much more than that ...16:51
Aardyes. and your application has rpath-settings to find all those stacks, and the libraries have rpath-settings to find their dependencies16:52
djszapithat is not how rpath works.16:55
djszapiit will work according to the override rules along with the limitation it cannot be extensible.16:57
djszapiand of course you cannot even base on the fact, libraries used it properly anyway16:57
djszapihow would a library developer do proper rpath for everybody ?16:58
djszapifor each separate application hiearchy.16:58
djszapithey could not even do it, if they wanted.16:58
djszapiI hope you understand by now what you did not understand previously ;-)16:59
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admiral0anyone want to test?17:02
admiral0deb is in post #217:02
Biappihello guys17:03
djszapiadmiral0: I have a business, I will test it on the way home, if you also test my app then :p17:03
Biappii need a bit of help in debugging the deployment process17:03
djszapiBiappi: shoot17:03
Biappi15:58:33: Failed to upload package: Failure / 15:58:33: Deploy step failed.17:03
Biappithat's everything i get in the logs17:03
admiral0djszapi: shoot17:03
djszapiBiappi: QtSDK thingie ?17:03
admiral0djszapi: i already tested Venemo's puzzle thingie17:04
admiral0so i can test yours too17:04
Biappiosx, if that's an useful info.17:04
Biappiall the test i can think of passes, (i.e. i can connect to the device via ssh and sftp)17:04
djszapiadmiral0: was just joking, I will test your on the way to home anyway. :)17:05
Aarddjszapi: unless I mess up linker behaviour between platforms, in the library you only need rpath information to find the dependencies of the library itself17:05
nwokiguys, another question: is it normal that in my simulator I have the n9 only in PORTRAIT mode ?17:07
nwokithe model selector says explicitly "Nokia n9 (portrait)"17:08
nwokimay this be the cause for me not being able to set my app in landscape mode?17:08
admiral0nwoki: on what system are you?17:08
nwokiadmiral0: linux17:08
admiral0xrandr -o 117:09
djszapiAard: but that is the point17:09
admiral0enjoy your new portrait simulator+ computer display17:09
djszapiX library of the Y library is not available17:09
nwokiadmiral0: ??17:09
djszapiX and Y will be shipped my KDE application17:09
djszapiso will it be with other KDE apps17:09
nwokiadmiral0: i don't get what you said17:09
djszapiso how would you know the /current/ rpath of Y ?17:09
djszapiThere is no way to know that.17:10
djszapiX library dependency of the Y library is not available*17:10
Aarddjszapi: oh, you mean you _relocate_ prebuilt shared libraries with rpath?17:10
djszapiunsure what you mean.17:11
nwokiadmiral0: my simulator is already in portrait. I need Landscape mode17:11
Aardyou have libraries with rpath to /opt/foo and /opt/bar. now you take them, and ship them on /opt/foobar, breaking the rpath?17:11
admiral0nwoki: afaik here is no way to get landscape in simulator17:11
admiral0xrandr -o 1 rotates your entire screen17:11
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djszapiAard: it will be broken unless you use my /very/ long hackery.17:12
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djszapiand why use such a scary long stuff ? Why trust anybody using that under your foot ?17:12
nwokiadmiral0: but what will happen if i put my app on the device?17:12
Aarddjszapi: is that the scenario, that you put the library in a different path then compiled in?17:12
admiral0if you use qtcreator initial code it will auto-rotate17:12
djszapiAard: the scenario, as I said in the beginning, you have an /opt/myapp/lib stuff.17:13
djszapiso have you /opt/myapp/bin/myexecutable.17:13
djszapithat is for runtime, and then you of course also have compilation time hiearchy too for sure.17:14
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djszapisinec you need to make sure everything works fine, and you do not use system-wide thingy.17:14
djszapibut anyway, we can have such a proposal for the next desktop standard, if any :)17:14
admiral0djszapi: be sure to reboot after installing7417:14
djszapiadmiral0: that is gonna be acceptable in OVI17:15
djszapiit is not Windows man.17:15
Aarddjszapi: what you just explained will not break rpath, unless there are additional conditions17:15
djszapiyou do rarely need to reboot a Linux machine17:15
djszapiAard: you do not understand then how rpath works17:15
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admiral0i was saying about my deb17:16
djszapiadmiral0: I know.17:16
Aarddjszapi: the only reason this might break is when you copy a libraries into /opt/myapp/lib which have an rpath for a different directory hierarchy17:16
djszapiand that is what I have been saying for an hour...17:17
Aardwell, and doing this is stupid17:17
djszapino way every people in the world would use it, and if that was the case, it does not even work technically.17:17
djszapiyes, using rpath in this situation is pretty stupid.17:18
Aardno, just copying arbitrary binaries is stupid17:18
djszapithat is what we and also Android Qt folks do17:18
djszapinot accidentally.17:18
khertan1taking android as a reference17:19
djszapibecause as I said, you will not end up zillion versions and plugins for your app17:19
djszapijust what you need.17:19
khertan1you are still funny djszapi17:19
djszapikhertan1: yes, the Android Qt guys have a pretty good concept17:19
khertan1yeah yeah17:19
khertan1sure ...17:19
jonnijust got my new cyan Lumia 800 today... just booting it up 1st time....17:19
djszapiplease do not troll about the platform, I am not referring to that, if you listen to my words.17:19
AardI'd not call this a 'concept', I'd call this a dirty hack17:19
djszapidirty hack to not have zillion versions and plugins around ?17:20
djszapibut you have better control for your app... I mean seriously ?17:20
khertan1zillions version by apps17:20
khertan1yeah ... far better17:20
khertan1so we didn't need too real packaging tool17:20
djszapiAard: I am not sure you have ever developed just even with two different versions17:21
khertan1a zip is enough17:21
djszapibut it was 1-2 weeks for us to figure out a bug due to that collide situation17:21
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djszapiand that was just libkok and my kde library with out /any/ other versions, or plugins.17:21
Aarddjszapi: like I mentioned earlier, on solaris for several libraries it's default situation to have several versions installed in different locations17:21
djszapiohh not just 100 libraries, but even 100 locations..17:22
djszapigetting simpler really ;)17:22
Aardthe proper solution for this situation would be extending ld to allow proper separation of different versions of shared libraries, and not including the libraries with each application17:22
djszapiand how is that easier than an environment variable setting ?17:23
djszapiI mean ... srsly ?17:23
nwokiit's the PageStackWindow that messes it all up17:23
Aardbecause with the environment variable setting you still can get the collisions which lead to quite interesting segfaults, and are hard to debug17:23
Aardit's not easier in the short term, but the only sane solution in the long term17:24
djszapinever had any segfaults.17:24
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djszapiactually the practice have been saying the opposite for people (including me)17:24
Aardright now you're doing something the linux userland is not designed to handle, and instead of thinking about adapting the userland design you're hacking around it17:25
djszapihuh ?17:25
Aardyou will get segfaults if accidentally a wrong library version gets pulled in17:25
djszapibut that is the point17:25
djszapithere is no wrong library version17:25
djszapiexactly my point, we avoid that with this.17:25
djszapiso unsure you understand the concept, probably not yet..17:26
Aardno, you don't. you maybe _mostly_ avoid it with this, but you'll still have lot's of problems you can run into during development and deployment17:26
djszapiactually the practice has been saying the opposite for people (including me)17:26
Aardyou just mentioned problems with a wrong version of libkok beeing pulled in, which was hard to debug. with proper userland support for separated libraries this would not have been hard to debug17:27
djszapiyou might wanna continue this topic with the kde build system guru, Alexander. He might be able to explain to you more understandbly.17:27
djszapiI feel that I said everything, and just repeating  myself.17:28
djszapiAard: it /was" a "proper userland support"17:28
djszapithat is why we realized rpath is ftl.17:28
Aardno, linux does _not_ have proper userland support for having coexisting versions of shared libraries17:28
djszapithat is what the damn LD_* was designed17:29
djszapito not pollute the stuff system-wise17:29
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djszapithat is what I have been saying for an hour really ...17:29
djszapino real support -> /huge/ trouble -> possible without separation17:29
* djszapi feels like repeating himself.17:29
Aardno, the LD_ was designed as development aid, and to migrate between to library versions. it was never menat to be used as a permanent variable17:30
Aardyou seem to lack some classic basic unix concepts17:30
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djszapino, that is unfortunately not true.17:31
djszapibecause they never thought about separated concept for libraries properly, as you also said anyway17:31
Aardelf libraries have support for version numbers, so in theory it would be possible for an application to request a specific version of a library, but linux does only have partial support for this17:31
djszapiso it was all and nice until separation was introduced17:31
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djszapibut ldconf, rpath and all thsoe dirty concepts are outdated.17:31
djszapiif you wanna make a clean separation.17:32
djszapiand that is what we want.17:32
Aardyou can't do clean separation without userland support, which you don't have (just duplicating libraries dozen of times in private hierarchies is a dirty hack around the userland shortcomings, not clean separation)17:33
djszapiand apparently not just we, but android and other developers, too.17:33
djszapiit is a clean separation17:33
djszapithe best separation ever.17:33
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djszapiuntil (as I said) we face size limitation17:33
djszapibut since we had libraries like 1.4 MB, who cares.17:33
djszapiand 5-6 KDE apps.17:33
khertan1djszapi: best separation, as best as aegis for security ...17:36
djszapiof course static linking would be the best, but certain licenses do not allow that in each case. Not that it would be doable in the long run either.17:36
khertan1without trolling17:36
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Aardno, best would be support from ld to register your library configuration there, with other packages beeing able to request it17:37
khertan1it ll be nice, a lib which suffer a security hole will require that whole app using this lib reinstall it17:37
djszapiAard: I do not live in the dream world.17:37
djszapiI cook with the current ingredients.17:37
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Aardif only some of the manpower which went into getting those hacks working would've been spent on extending ld we probably had it by now ;)17:38
djszapigo for it ?17:38
djszapiit seems you wanna that feature, so why persuade others instead of doing it ?17:39
djszapiI had issues with qt-components, I pushed the patches, isn't it how open source works ? :)17:39
AardI never had this problem. it's just sad to see what people who have that problem do instead of fixing it17:39
djszapiAlthough, I am pretty sure the develoeprs would reject it17:39
djszapiotherwise it would have been added in the early why beat a dead horse ?17:40
Aardit was not added in the early days because there was no need for such a feature. until recently 99% of the software on the average linux box came packaged from the distributor, or from people who used what the distributor packaged17:41
Aardlike I said before, linux ld does not use all elf features because there never was a need17:41
djszapiand of course the desktop standard extension is not just about LD ... Do not get the problem tight to one specific use case of the zillions.17:41
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djszapiI do not believe this sorry.17:41
djszapithe mobile and similar concepts were not added yesterday to the world.17:41
djszapibut anyway, I am happy to see you patching this. :)17:42
djszapiWe are really happy with one variable setting.17:42
djszapiinstead of spending enormous time with patches and bikeshed discussions.17:42
Aardwell, look at commercial unix systems where there _was_ a need for that feature, since 3rd party often shipped similar libraries -- they do have better separation17:42
djszapishame on them they did not make it upstream ?17:43
ZogG_lap1opX-Fade: ping17:43
djszapiand of course that is the commercial world, that is what they are getting paid for.17:43
Aardyou do understand what 'commercial unix' is?17:43
djszapiI am not getting paid for ld, not much interest in that either.17:43
Aardthe elf specification has partial support for stuff like this, commercial unix variants implement it because they need it -- linux does not, since it wasn't needed17:44
djszapiwe do not spend our time for fun with long hacks ?17:44
Aardand if you look at older mobile distributions -- quite often most of the stuff was built in a similar scheme like for the desktop distribution, where you didn't need to ship tons of libraries17:44
djszapiwe do things we really enjoy in our leisure time, if it works for one variable ?17:45
djszapiand I think our way we chose is the best solution out of the gradients.17:45
Aardwell, that kind of attitude is one of the reasons why I only touch kde-stuff when I get paid for it17:46
djszapiAard: and where are those distributions now, in the garbage ?17:46
Aardangstrom? yes, I'd say mostly garbage17:46
djszapiwell, that kind of attitude is one of the reasons why I only touch kde-stuff when I get paid for it -> At least you got my point by now ...17:46
djszapitook a while...17:46
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djszapiand of course we will not patch zillion other binaries just because environment variable setting is not possible in the desktop standard.17:47
djszapithere are probably zillion other cases where it would end up.17:48
Aardwhich leads to the very beginning: use a wrapper...17:48
djszapiwe did in November.17:48
djszapibut this is behind my point.17:48
djszapiI wanted to know whether the desktop standard can aid to do the same what I can do on command line17:49
djszapibut apparently not.17:49
djszapiso it has only partial execution support.17:49
Aardthat's the part where we disagree, I'd say it has full support, and the feature you want needs to be done in a different layer17:49
djszapiyou cannot disagree with that it has full execution support the command line.17:50
Biappi[ot][rant] i'm comforting myself with the thought of stroustroup and all the c++ committee burning the helliest of all hells.17:50
djszapidoes not have*17:50
djszapibecause it is a fact, not personal taste.17:51
djszapiwhat you can say, it should not, but that is personal taste.17:51
djszapieven if one just debugs the application, it would be super cool instead of messing up with ld files and rpath for debugging.17:53
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faenilis there any screen protector for the n950?18:05
SpeedEvilI have got an ipad screen protector to cut one out from.18:07
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djszapiAard: thanks for the discussion, unfortunately I need to leave.18:07
SpeedEvilIt seems to work from a prototype I did18:07
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faenilI see... thanks :)18:07
SpeedEvilCoincidentally, my brother just got a laser cutter.18:09
SpeedEvilSo I'm going to get him to cut me out one, rahter than screwing with scissors18:09
IktwoI use an e7's screen protector for n95018:11
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faenildoes it fit perfectly?18:11
Iktwowell I did not cut it18:12
Iktwoso.. it works for me18:12
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faenilIt's not for you :D18:12
faenildoes it fit perfectly or does it now? :D18:12
Iktwoit covers all the screen, but not the area above it18:13
faenilok thanks :)18:13
lucidohello, how is the "wait" animation with the circle in the middle of the screen implemented?18:17
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ZogG_lap1oplucido: search for busyindicator18:28
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lucidoZogG_lap1op, thanks, the one in the phone ui is not circular. musst be a different one18:52
Biappimmh, i guess it's worth to ask it again.18:54
Biappisomeone knows how to debug the deployment of binaries to the n9 using qtcreator?18:54
Biappii get next to no error at all, and i'm struggling to have the project on device :/18:55
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artemmaBiappi: what sort of error?19:03
artemmacan't connect to remote server or anything like that?19:03
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Biappiartemma: 15:58:33: Failed to upload package: Failure / 15:58:33: Deploy step failed19:04
Biappii can connect to the device with ssh or sftp19:04
artemmaBiappi: that's just some connection problem19:04
artemmaI have it once in a while19:04
Biappiok, ok i was compiling for simulator, lemme recompile for the target19:04
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artemmasometimes everything works fine after several retrials19:04
artemmasometimes reboot of the device or restart of QtCreator helps19:04
Biappiit's literally all day that i;m trying :/19:05
artemmaBiappi: Once or twice I had it for something like a day19:05
artemmathen it was fixed on its own19:05
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artemmaBiappi: double check the IP address just in case it's changed19:05
Biappiartemma: can you confirm that's something like this?
artemmaand push the test button in hardware devices to check that QtCreator can connect to it19:06
artemmaBiappi: I didn't keep a record, yet I believe I had something like this several times19:06
artemmamore often it is "Cannot connect to server" though19:07
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Biappiartemma: ok thanks19:08
Biappii'll try tomorrow19:08
Biappiand hope19:08
* artemma is lucky to have both N950 and N9. When one starts faileing uploads, I switch to the other one19:08
artemmaBiappi: reboot of both laptop and device helps always or nearly always19:08
artemmathat is an overkill though. I am not sure what exactly needs to be restarted19:08
Biappii'm pitiful enough that i've been moved from being iphone-dev to qt/symbian-dev with the new year.19:08
artemmaBiappi: you are probably the only person of this kind. Most of Symbian devs are not trying to move elsewhere from Symbian :)19:09
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Biappii noticed... in one older project i've worked on, someone reimplemented the symbian classes (Tdes and Vector.. that stuff there) to be used in linux/iphone19:10
Biappijoy of life!19:10
artemmathere's never enough good Vectors :)19:10
Biappiyup, but there's always scarsity of vec3f/vec4f :)19:11
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lucidoComponent.onCompleted:  doesnt seem to work19:26
lucidohow to execute code on the loading of my qml file?19:27
radiofreelucido: Component.onCompleted: console.log("foo") doesn't work?19:28
radiofreeif you're doing it dynamically then you'll only get that after component.createObject()19:29
lucidoradiofree, this is the beginning of my qml:, what do you mean by dynamically?19:30
radiofreelucido: i mean if you do something like var qmlcomponent = Qt.createComponent("foo.qml");19:33
radiofreelucido: try putting console.log("Component.onCompleted") at the top of that function19:34
radiofreemaybe there's some error?19:35
lucidoI'm loading it with a pagestackwindow19:35
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radiofreelucido: sorry, can't help you there, but Component.onCompleted should work, providing there wasn't any error with the component creation19:39
radiofreebut just try it with console.log() anyway19:39
lucidoradiofree, it works, but the screen.allowSwipe = false has no effect19:39
radiofreeso Component.onCompleted: is being called?19:40
radiofreeok, then it's some other issue, I'd guess it's some kind of reference error19:41
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itsnotabigtruckbtw i remember reading somewhere that allowSwipe = minimum of PR1.1 = verboten on ovi store19:42
itsnotabigtruckthey might have changed that last part, i remember seeing at least one app on ovi store with a notice saying a 'large' firmware upgrade might be needed to install19:43
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ArkanoiD-damn. seems that meego will always suffer form dependencies hell.21:12
ArkanoiD-though harmattan is not technically meego.. anyways it applies to maemo as well21:12
RST38hWho is suffering? I am not suffering too much.21:13
ArkanoiD-RST38h, just tried barcode scanner from ovi store -- it says dependencies download failed (nokia style, so there is no info *which* ones)21:16
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ArkanoiD-web interface to ovi store is funny21:18
RST38hArkanoid: There are at least 2 barcode scanners, install the second one21:18
RST38hArkanoid: and yes, use apt-get install21:18
ArkanoiD-it thinks you need nokia suite to install packages21:18
RST38hit will tell you what failed21:18
ArkanoiD-RST38h, sounds promising. what is the name and repo?21:18
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RST38hUpCode and Meescan21:21
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ieatlinti love my country!/ganson/status/161799371313254401/photo/121:28
befordi dont want to live on this planet anymore21:29
ieatlintyeah, that sign is totally stupid21:30
ieatlintpeople don't have three hands21:30
RST38hthat was a foot21:30
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SpeedEvilieatlint: It's possible it's aimed at mothers with children.21:32
ieatlintit's like when they had to change the marketing for the emergency number here from "nine eleven" to "nine one one" because people couldn't find the eleven key on their phone21:32
SpeedEvilTo be fair, it's a number you want to be able to call when severely cognition impaired for whatever reason.21:32
ieatlinti disagree, if you can't figure it out, i'd prefer you die21:33
ieatlintwe call that self correcting21:33
RST38h"Let us just remove warning labels off everything"21:33
ieatlintyeah, i want to see what people do when they take the "do not drink" signs off the fuel pumps21:33
deramthat is why the 911 has already failed, since 9 and 1 is at opposite sides and not easily dialed if hurt and down on the floor21:34
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ieatlintderam: that was intentional to prevent accidental dialing21:34
ieatlintalso, as i recall on the dates, rotary phones were he norm when it was made21:34
deramieatlint: ok, our old 000 had that problem, and was changed to 112, which seems to not have same problems afaik21:34
ieatlintand the idea was to make it faster to dial as well21:34
DocScrutinizerpupnik had a stroke where he couldn't dial neither nine eleven nor nine one one, just 9 1 1. A colleague of me same21:35
deramalso on rotary the 000 was probably just fine21:35
DocScrutinizeryeah, the 00 and 000 were funny21:35
DocScrutinizerand nobody knew them21:36
DocScrutinizerbut I guess you meant 0 0 0  rather than '000'21:38
ieatlintwell, here i can dial 112 or 999 or 911 on my phone and get the same thing21:38
ieatlintand i've never had much trouble dialing 911 though21:38
deramon cellular network all of those must connect to same place21:40
ieatlintyep, translates at the tower to an "emergency call"21:41
ArkanoiD-RST38h, meescan is the one i tried to install from ovi21:42
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ieatlinthuh, meescan installed off ovi fine here21:45
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grimeescan might fail on n950 since a lib is missing from dependencies which is available on the n9 for some reason21:48
ArkanoiD-1.1 sure21:48
ArkanoiD-like everyone else's21:48
ieatlintoh, right, i heard about that21:48
ieatlintforget which lib21:49
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gri this lib21:49
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gridon't have the unshortened link, sorry :)21:49
ArkanoiD-thanks, will try21:50
ArkanoiD-does permanently enabling n9 repository break things? and why there is no n950 one with similar content?21:50
DocScrutinizerwell, on GSM 00 == A and 000 = B, and C is also defined in TS07.0721:52
DocScrutinizeron DTMF a..D are defined21:53
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DocScrutinizermakes 16 keys21:53
DocScrutinizersometimes they use one of A, B, C to trigger primary caller line identifier printout, when callee presses the key during blackmail calls21:55
DocScrutinizerS7 did strange things on A..D keys21:57
ArkanoiD-ah, it happened again21:58
DocScrutinizererr, the predecessor of S7 exchange21:58
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ArkanoiD-started heavy swapping and not responding to any gestures21:58
ArkanoiD-though thoroughly memorizing it to execute at once later :-)21:58
DocScrutinizerArkanoiD-: sure, seen that one desktop linux as well :-D21:59
* ArkanoiD- wonders why there is no load indicator22:00
ArkanoiD-it is vital on linux-based systems22:00
DocScrutinizerALL my machines have CPU load indicator ;-D22:00
ArkanoiD-DocScrutinizer, do you have one for harmattan?22:00
DocScrutinizerusually also swap usage22:01
DocScrutinizerArkanoiD-: nope, as I'm not using that machine, except via ssh22:01
DocScrutinizeron ssh there's htop22:02
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djszapiHi! Which is the better place for fixing the shared data things, like icon, desktop file and so on if you use /opt/myproject prefix for the buildsytem. There are two potential places: rules and install file.22:05
admiral0djszapi: tried the mod?22:05
djszapioopsie, not really. I was practicing for my music lesson. Forgot it.22:07
djszapisorry for that.22:07
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admiral0djszapi: you make me a sad panda
djszapiclassical ;-)22:12
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