| itsnotabigtruck | one last thing about the sopa stuff, i am a bit tired of everybody on the planet (including americans) slagging off on the US and its politics, while turning a blind eye to the situation in the rest of the world | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ieatlint | next up i'll claim that i love emacs | 00:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's very unusual to see a brit, frenchman, etc. complaining about the erosions of e-rights there | 00:01 |
| deram | or even worse, eclipse | 00:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hehe | 00:01 |
| *** gri is now known as zz_gri | 00:02 | |
| ieatlint | i do all my programming in nano | 00:02 |
| ieatlint | it's awesome | 00:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, the US is the only country on the planet that actually has freedom of speech. | 00:02 |
| deram | the erosion almost always has started from US, europe comes afterwards in couple of years | 00:02 |
| deram | so it seems to be best to torpedo those acts on the source | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | GeneralAntilles: well, the 1st amendment's been weakened to the point that it's pretty similar to the status quo in most other western countries | 00:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, somewhat, but at least it's not qualified like everywhere else. | 00:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Whether the courts choose to uphold it correctly is a separate issue from how it's actually written. | 00:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Everybody else has a giant asterisk on their speech rights. | 00:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | deram: ehhh...an awful lot of the developments in europe have started there (e.g. three-strikes law in france, compulsory turnover of encryption keys in the UK) | 00:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | ^ | 00:05 |
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| ieatlint | or as stated, the UK blocking a site accused of piracy, and i believe france has a policy where you can get banned from internet use for a period for piracy allegations | 00:06 |
| deram | well, at least first of which have been lobbied by MPAA and its significant others | 00:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but these sorts of laws are a problem no matter where they start cropping up, especially since legislators in other countries start getting ideas if such things gain traction elsewhere | 00:06 |
| ieatlint | or australia... which is pretty crazy | 00:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | At its core it's an issue of governments with too much power. | 00:07 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | but effectively limiting a government's power is pretty much impossible unless you go full libertarian, and that gets you something like industrial revolution-era america | 00:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if they have the capability to do things you want, they'll also have the capability to do things you don't want | 00:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, interesting assertion about industrial revolution-era. | 00:09 |
| ieatlint | ok, i started this troll, but as it delves into libertarianism, even i think it should stop | 00:10 |
| * GeneralAntilles doesn't get why people fear freedom. | 00:11 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | eh, touche | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: where did you find that giant bottle of good stuff? I don't deel like German law puts any major unreasonable restrictions on my right of free speech - apart from obvious cases like insult etc | 00:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | If certain types of speech are prohibited then you don't have free speech. | 00:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: germany's the country that forbids nazi symbology, puts heavy restrictions on video games, etc. | 00:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Especially if courts and bureaucracies get to decide which types of speech are and are not acceptable. | 00:11 |
| ieatlint | DocScrutinizer: i can burn the american flag, call the president a nazi, and tattoo a swastika on my forehead withou breaking any laws | 00:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Freedom of speech isn't "Speech that I agree with is OK." | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | if I can prosecute you when you call me a liar in your "free spreech", I'd think that's even better than what US ahve | 00:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it seems like an awesome place but it's not a good example for freedom of speech | 00:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: look into britain's libel/slander laws | 00:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, whatever sort of speech you have in Europe sure aint "free speech". | 00:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that doesn't work out so well in practice | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | uhuh, you must know | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | sue, in USA you can call a police sucker "asshole" and you simply get shot - nice "freedom of speech" | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure* | 00:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Er? | 00:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | What | 00:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, that's a completely different thing, and that isn't really normal either | 00:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | The problem with these discussions is that nobody in Europe seems to have any clue what reality is like in the US. | 00:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's definitely true that the police are a bit too brutish sometimes, but it gets exaggerated a lot | 00:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just all the anti-US bullshit. | 00:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially if you read a lot of reddit | 00:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | GeneralAntilles: that's not quite true either | 00:15 |
| ieatlint | eh, the US is fucked up like every other country | 00:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it does seem like people have ideas of the US that are based on news stories about worst-case scenarios, and hollywood movies | 00:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jealousy is an ugly color. Just ask China. *g* | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually your McCarthy time been way after our 3rd-Reich | 00:15 |
| ieatlint | DocScrutinizer: a decade | 00:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pfft | 00:16 |
| ieatlint | and yeah, that was good times | 00:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | McCarthy doesn't even BEGIN to compare to Nazism. | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'd think you even today just are mafe believe you got freedom of *thought* | 00:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | to be clear, no one here is advocating red scare / mccarthyism | 00:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | McCarthy's history is also overblown. | 00:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the "house un-american activies commission" was one of the more un-american things the US ever did | 00:17 |
| ieatlint | we have a nice and pleasant dark history :) | 00:17 |
| ieatlint | japanese internment camps comes to mind as well | 00:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sure, all these are terrible things. | 00:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | But they aren't on the same scale or degree as what was happening in Europe and Asia during the time. | 00:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | GeneralAntilles: well, the difference is that we (the allies) were supposed to be the "good guys" | 00:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Let's talk about the Rape of Nanking | 00:18 |
| * DocScrutinizer mumbles "the wino said: who's not with us, is against us. Who cares about *old europe*" - yeah sure you got freedom of speech over there ;-) | 00:18 | |
| ieatlint | plus we elected a secret muslim president even though he was born in kenya | 00:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, I agree and I frequently point that out to some of my more militaristic friends. | 00:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | ieatlint, Bush 3.0 | 00:19 |
| ieatlint | GeneralAntilles: just a colbert fan ;) | 00:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *secret COMMUNIST muslim president | 00:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | He's clearly pushing for socialist policies. | 00:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | erm, not really, bailouts and a health care "reform" that just puts money in the pockets of insurance companies, aren't socialist policies | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | He's overseen the largest expansion of the food stamp program in US history | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | The bailouts ARE socialism. | 00:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem with obama, is that instead of taking an ideology and sticking with it, his platform is middling and vague | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Government control of companies. | 00:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | socialism would have the government take a stake in the companies | 00:21 |
| * ieatlint notes the bailouts were done by bush (but obama as a senator voted for them) | 00:21 | |
| GeneralAntilles | ieatlint, WHICH bailouts. :) | 00:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: bailout phase 1 was under bush, bailout phase 2 was under obama, right? | 00:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | There've been more than a few. | 00:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Airlines, GM, banks, insurance companies. | 00:21 |
| ieatlint | i thought both were bush, but i admit i'd have to check my facts | 00:21 |
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| ieatlint | splitting hairs either way, obama supported it all | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | ouch | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | now we're from OH-SO-FREE speech in USA to "this evil communist Obama" | 00:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Left, right or center, they're all scum out to take away your basic rights to benefit themselves and their friends. | 00:22 |
| ieatlint | DocScrutinizer: thus is politics | 00:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: well, one of the main things we exercise our oh-so-free speech for, is bitching about the president and legislature :p | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | while USA media is almost like Berlusconi's Italian TV&press | 00:23 |
| ieatlint | pretty much | 00:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's not good but that's more than a bit of an exaggeration | 00:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | again, often the worst examples of journalism get the international attention | 00:24 |
| ieatlint | rupert murdoch's out here too | 00:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially if you read a lot of reddit | 00:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and a large chunk of rupert murdoch's assets aren't in the US, they're in the UK and australia | 00:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | murdoch has major control over UK newspapers | 00:24 |
| ieatlint | and a lot of US media too | 00:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | primarily fox news, fox, and the wall street journal | 00:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | fox network programming, specifically | 00:25 |
| SqRt7744 | It's kinda sad that the USA, a country which had such awesome prospects and was founded and colonized largely by people who wanted to create something awesome and free, is now driving down the highway to destruction faster than I can change my underwear... and both major political parties seem intent on throwing fuel on the flames for political expediency. | 00:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | murdoch doesn't control fox local programming (e.g. local news) but all local news programs are 3rd rate | 00:25 |
| ieatlint | conclusion: the US is fucked, just like everyone else; moving on... | 00:25 |
| SqRt7744 | fox, cnn: the differences are not as great as some would have you believe. | 00:26 |
| SqRt7744 | msnbc, slightly different spin, but same basic story | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | n8 folks | 00:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if it makes you feel any better, much of the stuff the us presidential candidates claim to believe in, they won't carry out (and usually can't carry out) and are only saying in order to bring in a political base | 00:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | later DocScrutinizer! | 00:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | sorry for putting you through all that lol | 00:27 |
| ieatlint | you mean mitt romney doesn't really believe an apocalypse is coming that he must prepare for, and all non-mormons are screwed? | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | e.g. all the stuff about gay marriage, abortion, and anything else like that is a sideshow to lock in southern / central US votes | 00:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | SqRt7744, amen. | 00:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, later. | 00:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: well, to be fair, setting all religious stuff aside, preparing for an "apocalypse" isn't a terrible idea | 00:28 |
| ieatlint | i'm still bitter sarah palin didn't run | 00:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | some people take that idea waaaaaaay too far, of course | 00:29 |
| * SpeedEvil has 6 months food stored. | 00:29 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | but if you're prepared for the "apocalypse" you're probably prepared for close to anything disaster-wise | 00:29 |
| SpeedEvil | Mostly so I can take extreme advantage of discounts. | 00:29 |
| SqRt7744 | I watched the south carolina debate the other day. What a joke. Felt really bad for Ron Paul, he is the only one who actually has anything to offer, and they treat him like sh*t. | 00:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, NE, too, if they were honest. ;) | 00:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | SqRt7744, Gary Johnson got it even worse. ;) | 00:29 |
| SqRt7744 | ...and he doesn't really seem good at fighting back | 00:30 |
| ieatlint | itsnotabigtruck: my plan is to just get a gun and use other people's disaster kits | 00:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hehe | 00:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hey, homicide fell off the top-15 list of causes of death in the US! | 00:30 |
| ieatlint | also, bringing up a discussion about ron paul is on par with bringing up a discussion of hitler | 00:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's why we're screwed. | 00:31 |
| ieatlint | it's like godwin's law | 00:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Rational thinking makes people crazy. | 00:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, this is crazy enough as it is, let's not bring ron paul into it | 00:31 |
| SqRt7744 | GeneralAntilles, well, I'm talking about the republican debate | 00:31 |
| * DocScrutinizer suggests some hours of Zappa listening - of some of his late 60s, early 70s records - to the excited audience | 00:32 | |
| GeneralAntilles | SqRt7744, yeah, I couldn't bring myself to watch more than 15 minutes of it. | 00:32 |
| * GeneralAntilles knows who he's voting for. | 00:32 | |
| SqRt7744 | me? | 00:32 |
| SqRt7744 | that's awfully nice of you, but really, you shouldn't | 00:32 |
| SqRt7744 | I won't turn down donations though, | 00:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 00:33 |
| * GeneralAntilles reboots to fix Lion's broken media handlers. | 00:33 | |
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| ieatlint | i'm voting herman cain | 00:33 |
| SqRt7744 | i love herman cain, I've never laughed so hard at a political candidate. Most of the others (-RP) creep me out. | 00:34 |
| ieatlint | nothing screams libertarian like a racist that hates the gays :P | 00:35 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | i probably ought to reregister as republican so i can vote in the primary | 00:37 |
| SqRt7744 | I love big governement arguments against small government types. Honestly if the government is out of my life, I couldn't care less about the personal opinions of whichever candidate. No Income Tax? No Wars? No Dept. of Education? Hell yeah! | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | you should register with every party you could, to do same with all of them | 00:38 |
| ieatlint | i see enough problems caused by radicalism | 00:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: would if i could :p in most states you pick one party on your voter registration, and ifyou pick repub or democrat you get a primary ballot | 00:38 |
| SqRt7744 | Any candidate who wants to use the goverment to force you to think like them is scary, I don't care what they believe, because even if I agree with them, 4 years later the next goverment will have a different opinion | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | ACK | 00:39 |
| ieatlint | SqRt7744: and i can't support a government that institutionalizes descrimination and hatred | 00:40 |
| SqRt7744 | ieatlint, exactly my point | 00:41 |
| ieatlint | hence i could never support ron paul | 00:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | If I had to live in a world where evry sucker thinks like I do, I'd go berserk (and obviously, consequently whole world would do as well ;-P ) | 00:42 |
| SqRt7744 | which is why the federal government shouldn't the power in the first place | 00:42 |
| SqRt7744 | ieatlint, I don't understand. | 00:42 |
| SqRt7744 | i accidentally a word | 00:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: while there's plenty of reasons not to vote for ron paul, i think you're falling into the gay rights/abortion pandering trap | 00:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what matters is economics and foreign policy, everything else is bullshit | 00:45 |
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| ieatlint | not to friends of mine it's not | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | foreign policy? I never thought the average American is aware there's such a thing like that | 00:46 |
| ieatlint | sure we are | 00:47 |
| ieatlint | we tell you guys what to do, you do it | 00:47 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, I diasgree, I don't want the government in my life, I don't want the federal government to have power to tell me what I can do with my life, health, who I associate with, what I do on the internet... | 00:47 |
| SqRt7744 | I also don't want them to have to power to act extra judicially against anyone, including americans | 00:47 |
| SqRt7744 | i want patent law reform | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, it's "over there, in the north, err east, south? Who cares, they got something we need? we will fetch it" | 00:47 |
| ieatlint | hey, that's unfair... korea, vietnam, panama, afghanistan... none of those wars were for resources | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: and there's the stereotype kicking in :/ | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | SqRt7744: first get rid of gitmo | 00:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | don't forget grenada! | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: not, that's mere statistically supported facts | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | yeah, and kosovo | 00:50 |
| SqRt7744 | american foreign policy hasn't really been about economics much. take sanctions as an example. Preventing trade damages the economy. | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | oh right, and libya.. | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | see, just 1 country (twice) for oil | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | well, i guess libya counts, so 2 countries | 00:51 |
| SqRt7744 | DocScrutinizer, absolutely. I agree that foreign policy and free markets should be at the top of the "want" list | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | "for oil" is doubtful | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for one because libya was already a huge supplier of oil to italy | 00:51 |
| SqRt7744 | ...and treating "the enemy" like shit is not the best way to maintain the moral high ground in any conflict | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and people claim iraq was to steal their oil...where's the cheap iraqi oil | 00:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's not going here, that's for sure | 00:51 |
| ieatlint | well, that's just because we did it so incompetently | 00:52 |
| ieatlint | plans don't always pan out | 00:52 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | the most plausible motive behind the iraq war i've heard was to drive a stake into the middle east to keep iran et al out of the way | 00:52 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries america bullies are also the main targets of israel. | 00:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | and probably simply to trhow out that old bombshell crap to get better new stuff, better than that you previously sold to Iraq | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | SqRt7744: ehh...the US supports israel because they're also a useful tool to keep the rest of the ME in line | 00:54 |
| SqRt7744 | iraq under saddam was more than willing to part with their oil on the cheap, would have been a hell of lot cheaper than the trillions the invasion cost | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the arab world, in general, despises both the US and israel | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and has for decades | 00:54 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, why do we want to keep anyone in line? In line with what, exactly? | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so it's not surprising that the US and israel have common enemies | 00:54 |
| ieatlint | yes, we all miss the ottomans and british empires keeping those guys in check | 00:55 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, gee, I wonder why. | 00:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | SqRt7744: who cares what it *costs* USA as a whole, as long as 90% end in the bomb manufacturers' pockets | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | war is profitable and promotes nationalism | 00:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | SqRt7744: in line with not consolidating their influence, becoming a real military threat, etc. | 00:55 |
| ieatlint | of course it gave us massive budget deficeits, but china was happy to help, and a lot of US industry saw record profits | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly | 00:57 |
| SqRt7744 | war is not profitable on the whole, it is only profitable for a special interest, the weapons manufacturers. To pay them, money has to be taken from actually profitable enterprise, and that enterprise then has less money to invest in further profitable ventures. War is *always* a net loss for the economy. Especially when it is financed by a central bank by inflating the currency. | 00:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm not saying i support the iraq war in retrospect, but i am saying that you guys are taking a rather generic anti-us cynical viewpoint | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | nobody gives a shit about net loss | 00:58 |
| ieatlint | my gf worked as a military contractor in iraq for 3 months... made about $70k for that time alone | 00:58 |
| ieatlint | sat on a base and managed servers, pretty easy | 00:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and WW2 was probably profitable, in the long term | 00:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but WW2 was completely different from these more recent limited wars | 00:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't think anybody wants another total war | 00:58 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, I am not anti-us at all, in fact I am pro-US. But being pro-US doesn't mean agreeing with the foreign policy, which is dominated in fairly recent history by pro-zionist neocons. Their politics is destroying a great country, and their influence has to stop. | 00:59 |
| ieatlint | drop the word zionist if you want to be taken seriously | 00:59 |
| ieatlint | it's politics, not race | 00:59 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | SqRt7744: but you don't have a unique position, you have the position of every liberal on reddit | 01:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and throwing 'zionist' around is a huge red flag | 01:00 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, a red flag for what? | 01:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | just wonder why | 01:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | if it is, then there's more to it | 01:01 |
| ieatlint | zionism has significant racial connotations | 01:01 |
| ieatlint | racial/religious | 01:01 |
| ieatlint | (and yes, we know what the dictionary says) | 01:01 |
| SqRt7744 | yeah, so? | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | oooh, and US politics is absolutely non-religious otherwise | 01:02 |
| ieatlint | so does that make someone who opposes israel anti-semetic? | 01:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | SqRt7744: a position picked up from the general internet progressive movement, which has a strong anti-republican pro-democrat anti-israel position | 01:02 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, in your mind perhaps, but not in mine. | 01:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and being against israel doesn't mean being anti-semitic, but a lot of people hate israel because they a) aren't familiar with the history of conflict in the region, or b) are anti-jew | 01:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I hate israel for their being arrogant assholes (their leaders/gvmnt) | 01:04 |
| SqRt7744 | I honestly don't see what zionism has to do with repubs or democrats, other than that they both support it in various ways. | 01:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | or their actions | 01:04 |
| ieatlint | anyone who is simply anti-israel or anti-palestine can only see black and white, and is too narrow to see much more | 01:04 |
| ieatlint | they're both guilty assholes | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | agreed | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | I equally share that attitute to another ~5..10 countries | 01:05 |
| SqRt7744 | itsnotabigtruck, and I am most certainly not progressive, so I don't know where you got that from. | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ftoad, while i'm sort of siding with israel for the purposes of this argument their government's actions are highly problematic | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | minimum | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | israel and palestine keep provoking each other and neither is interested in serious resolution of the whole situation | 01:06 |
| ieatlint | i've got 3 more hours of pretending to work before i can go home :( | 01:06 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | it's a hate based conflict | 01:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | palestine one of the other asshole "countries", for sure | 01:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also whoops, that should have been *ftaod (for the avoidance of doubt) | 01:08 |
| ieatlint | let's just agree to blame the uk and un for it all | 01:08 |
| mpr | the root problem is that US and others were retards and didn't allow the establishment of a palestinian state beside Israel | 01:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | CANADA | 01:08 |
| ieatlint | sure, canada too | 01:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | let's blame CANADA | 01:08 |
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| ieatlint | we should go invade canada and steal their oil | 01:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mpr: what? the UN partition plan specifically divided the mandate of palestine into an israel part and a palestine part | 01:08 |
| SqRt7744 | ieatlint, tarsands. Please, take them. | 01:08 |
| mpr | itsnotabigtruck: yes, and no-one recognised palestine | 01:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then most of the arab world declared war on israel to take the land for themselves | 01:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | had that not happened, there'd be a significantly larger palestine today | 01:09 |
| ieatlint | SqRt7744: i love that politicians here have actually said using that oil will "decrease our dependence on foreign oil" | 01:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it wouldn't be a conflict zone | 01:09 |
| ieatlint | we don't even regard canada as foreign :P | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | SqRt7744: you forgot "...and keep the wase" | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | waste even | 01:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: because they don't want to say "middle eastern and chinese oil" :p | 01:10 |
| ieatlint | we don't get oil from china | 01:11 |
| ieatlint | we get it from canada, venezuela, domestic production and the middle east primarily | 01:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | mm, gp | 01:11 |
| SqRt7744 | <yawn> seriously who cares about the arab/israeli conflict. They're both grown up and can fight it out themselves. I just don't want american politicians influenced by AIPAC vying for who can kiss the most israeli ass as a prerequisite for being "electable"... and the christian sheep thinking it is somehow their God-given duty to support israel in any and every way they can. | 01:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's another problem, the aforementioned political christian bloc | 01:12 |
| ieatlint | eh, a large part of US support of israel can be blamed on florida | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | creationists | 01:12 |
| SqRt7744 | DocScrutinizer, I'm a dual US/Can citizen so I can both off and accept the tar-sands | 01:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's definitely paradoxical how we have constitutionally-enforced secular government and yet religion has a severe influence in elections and a moderate influence in legislation, whereas many european countries have state churches, 'christian democrat' parties, and/or church integration into gov/schools, and yet way less religious influence over government | 01:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically none at all | 01:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | eh, there's still some | 01:15 |
| SqRt7744 | ...the evangelical/israel thing is also a fairly recent phenomenon, I never really got it either. Jesus was pretty hard on the pharisees, destroyed the temple and whatnot, and the conflicts in the middle east are really bad for the christians living there, yet the american christians care less about their brothers in the middle east than some preceived threat to the holy state of Israel... | 01:15 |
| artemma | What would be the easy way for creating a multiselection list?I really like the colors and functionality of a MultiSelectionDialog, but.. it's a dialog. I want to create a similar looking list and would like to avoid creating full logic, colors and layout for delegate myself | 01:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ok, better get back to harmattan stuff, heh | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | wow, a OT call | 01:16 |
| ieatlint | haha, yeah | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, so stop it now | 01:16 |
| ieatlint | overdue | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 01:17 |
| ieatlint | i need to be drunk to continue this conversation anyway | 01:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | artemma: are you sure the dialog isn't an option? | 01:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think it's the most 'native' way to do it | 01:17 |
| artemma | itsnotabigtruck: Dialog is an option. However, thing is the whole app is going to be just a selection list + Save/Cancel/About :) | 01:18 |
| artemma | sort of a setting page for something that should have been in phone Settings actually | 01:18 |
| artemma | be I more diligent, I would have thought about making it a Setting page | 01:18 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | artemma: why not do it as a settings page now? | 01:20 |
| artemma | that is possible | 01:20 |
| artemma | still, I don't think there's a multiselection list element for settings | 01:20 |
| artemma | aren't all multiselection cases in settings dialogs? | 01:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | zenity ;-D | 01:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | if only zenity had a way to combine multiple instances into one "canvas" / window, whatever | 01:24 |
| artemma | zenity? | 01:25 |
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| SqRt7744 | has anyone tried to replace the qtcreator 2.3 in the the sdk with 2.4? | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.org/packages/view/zenity/ | 01:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenity | 01:30 |
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| artemma | DocScrutinizer: oh, cross-platform dialog boxes, I'd never be able to come up to even idea of it :) | 01:32 |
| artemma | and yeah, i'd need a bit more then just a dialog. Same reason why MultiSelectionDialog isn't good enough: I need a list, a couple of buttons (one with menu) and a bit of logic too | 01:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | clearly beyonf zenity's capabilities, though it has way more rhan just yes/no dialogs | 01:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | zenity --help-list | 01:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | http://library.gnome.org/users/zenity/stable/zenity-list-options.html.en | 01:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | http://linux.byexamples.com/archives/265/a-complete-zenity-dialog-examples-2/ | 01:47 |
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| arcean | ~malf | 01:54 |
| infobot | it has been said that malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg | 01:54 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | arcean: oh yeah, i read about that. so aegis-exec'ing something can cause aegis to blow? | 02:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i thought MALFs were mostly about boot-time integrity failures, aegis itself is supposed to enforce integrity after bootup | 02:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and not by killing the phone | 02:05 |
| arcean | itsnotabigtruck: nope, I just needed an image showing malf state :P | 02:06 |
| ieatlint | i think it's more like aegis is needed to run a number of services, and if the services fail to start, the watchdog reboots the phone | 02:06 |
| ieatlint | and malf kicks in when it detects a reboot loop | 02:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | arcean: but i think that picture is from when somebody aegis-exec'd bash and it triggered a MALF | 02:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ieatlint: i'm pretty sure it usually happens from an integrity failure, that's why it says 'security problem' at the bottom | 02:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it means something didn't check out | 02:08 |
| arcean | itsnotabigtruck: yes, you're right, but it still has "Device is malf..." text :) | 02:09 |
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| ieatlint | malf is a great name at least | 02:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | since the aegis code is open source, for the most part, i wonder if it would be possible to rebuild aegis on top of selinux | 02:14 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | in order to produce security enhanced meego :p | 02:14 |
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| merlin1991 | moving my scratchbox to a new box, great fun | 02:39 |
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| rZr | hi | 02:56 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | man, it's soooooo cold | 03:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | has anyone tried the ebuddy XMS app for meego? | 03:13 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | if so, how tightly integrated is it with the messaging gui | 03:13 |
| ieatlint | not too bad here | 03:14 |
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| ZogG_N9 | X-Fade, ping | 10:57 |
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| rantom | Has anyone else had issues with the Ovi Store lately? | 11:09 |
| rantom | I've been unable to download Air UI and Speed Test | 11:09 |
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| mja | couldn't download speedtest either | 11:23 |
| mja | there's another hit when you search for speedtest that works | 11:23 |
| mja | I couldn't download/install the QR reader either | 11:23 |
| rantom | Yeah, the cnLab one | 11:24 |
| rantom | It works but.. well, it works | 11:24 |
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| matrixx | hey, what was the site where was a trick how to hide icons for default app you don't use from the homescreen? | 11:33 |
| matrixx | I need to start gathering the tips somewhere, I always can't find everything second time :/ | 11:37 |
| rantom | There's a thread in talk.maemo.org for tips too | 11:37 |
| rantom | matrixx: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=78598 | 11:39 |
| rantom | not sure if that trick is in that list | 11:39 |
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| matrixx | rantom: it is, it's this: http://everythingn9.com/remove-application-shortcuts-nokia-n9/ | 11:41 |
| rantom | matrixx: Thanks | 11:42 |
| rZr | hi | 11:45 |
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| matrixx | hi | 11:56 |
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| djszapi | jonni ping internally | 12:06 |
| djszapi | (private) | 12:06 |
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| jonni | internal pong | 12:09 |
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| kralor | o/ | 12:28 |
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| * rZr rebuilt game powder | 12:49 | |
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| auenf | hmm, where is the option to avoid tolls in maps or drive? | 13:24 |
| auenf | and also avoid u-turns, seeing as it wants me to make an illegal u-turn at a set of lights | 13:24 |
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| SqRt7744 | illegal u-turns are awesome. | 13:31 |
| auenf | google maps does worse | 13:32 |
| auenf | http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Camden+Bypass%2FState+Route+89&daddr=The+Northern+Rd%2FMetroad+9&hl=en&geocode=Fck6-P0dKNb7CA%3BFdRg-v0dmsX7CA&aq=0&oq=camdensouth&sll=-33.868135,150.801086&sspn=0.539921,0.571976&vpsrc=6&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=11&ie=UTF8&ll=-34.035235,150.732851&spn=0.016839,0.017874&t=m&z=16 | 13:33 |
| auenf | what use is that in the route :P | 13:33 |
| auenf | if i can copy a link from maps.nokia.com, i can show the illegal u-turn :P | 13:37 |
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| SqRt7744 | quick question about the qml/c++ development: I have my qml files in src/ui, and they are listed in the .pro file under "OTHER_FILES", but the project can't find them in the shadow build debug directory when I try to run it... why aren't they getting copied over?? | 17:15 |
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| djszapiN950 | X-Fade, does your qmltube fork work fine on Harmattan ? | 17:35 |
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| gri | SqRt7744: they have to be added to INSTALLS in the .pro file. Normally the "new project" wizard does that for you | 18:09 |
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| SqRt7744 | gri, thanks, I am porting an evopedia to harmattan, and am redesigning the interface. I got it sorted out though, created a resource file and access the files that way | 18:11 |
| SqRt7744 | they're compiled in now, which may be faster anyway. | 18:12 |
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| M4rtinK | thp: you there ? :) | 18:15 |
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| ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ping | 19:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's a shame there hasn't been more stuff uploaded to apps.formeego.org | 19:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | ןא 'שד | 19:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | it was | 19:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | one app is waiting for approval btw | 19:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that said it's not super compelling compared to nokia's store...we need to get deeper into this open mode stuff | 19:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | but if you mean globally - than yes | 19:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | maybe the apps.formeego.org client can be adapted into a haxx0r store | 19:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ZogG_laptop: i meant that there's about 10 apps, total | 19:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | i got khtpasswdgen =) | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and almost all of them are on ovi store too | 19:48 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | how does the apps.formeego.org qa procedure compare to nokia's | 19:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | could be useful to get sideload apps signed for delivery to non-dev mode users | 19:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | have no idea | 19:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if it's less of a pain than nokia's store | 19:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | yeah but a lot of people wouldn't want go fully opensource as well it's about oficiallity | 19:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but the thing is, anything that could possibly be approved for either store.ovi.com or apps.formeego.org can be installed from devmode anyway | 19:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ah right, one of the conditions is to get built by their build server, isn't it | 19:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | for example even if e.g. molome would be opensource it would be only on ovi as their target is all users and not community guys | 19:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but sideloading is easy if you have other ways to communicate with your users | 19:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | true, but they don't aim only for n9, so they wouldn't work so hard just for it | 19:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | afaik if you have a deb signed by apps.formeego.org you can put it wherever you want and users can download it and tap to install | 19:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (or nokia store for that matter) | 19:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | true | 19:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though users have to toggle the relevant option first | 19:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | i don't get one thing | 19:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | if apps4meego has testing, why dooes it make QA before | 19:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | just make testing apps noot signed and that's it | 19:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | as much as everybody's been complaining about aegis, at least it's very reasonable compared to iphone | wp7 | to some extent android | 19:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | wp7 makes you pay to get less access to your phone | 19:53 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | n9 has a free devmode that gives you exactly as much access as any non-nokia app | 19:54 |
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| ZogG_laptop | not true | 19:55 |
| ZogG_laptop | there are things that re closed to dev as well | 19:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | for example - led | 19:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | but on other side we hope for open-mode | 19:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | ~open-mode | 19:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hmm? if you look at the aegis access lists, the apps.formeego, dev mode, and nokia store sources have identical access | 19:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | only the root key can grant more access | 19:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | we do not have rot as well | 19:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | i want coffee | 19:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also because of that, shouldn't it be possible to control the led from dev mode? | 19:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's a nokia store app that does that | 19:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so if it can you can, without any signing | 19:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | [i'm assuming you mean the camera flash] | 19:58 |
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| ZogG_laptop | i mean the notification led | 20:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh, well, my point was that there's things that are closed to dev mode but they're closed to everything else too | 20:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | except root key-signed stuff that's only part of the firmware | 20:02 |
| ZogG_laptop | yeah and my poit is who made decision what and why should be closed | 20:04 |
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| chris_ | hello, can you submit a library package to the ovi store because I have a bunch of classes that are used by multiple apps I'm working on? | 20:50 |
| ieatlint | i don't believe so | 20:50 |
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| chris_ | what would you suggest, statically linked library included in all of the app packages? | 20:56 |
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| ieatlint | pretty much... although unless your lib is huge, i wouldn't worry too much about it | 21:06 |
| M4rtinK | at least Apps ForMeeGo might get dependency handling some time in the future, though :) | 21:08 |
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| chris_ | it would be neat if they had a separate category for library submissions them needing no QA after all only the apps using them | 21:11 |
| cos^ | ovi sucks anyway, i won't be using it anymore | 21:11 |
| cos^ | they have also broken package updates | 21:11 |
| ieatlint | except that you could update a library without QA and break apps that depend on it who passed QA | 21:12 |
| ieatlint | interestingly, with symbian, a dll installed by one app is usable by any app | 21:13 |
| rantom | I kind of miss installing from .deb | 21:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | everyone does | 21:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | nd ovi uses deb | 21:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | but not the same way | 21:13 |
| cos^ | ieatlint: that happens on any distribution, and can be avoided by having separate testing repo | 21:13 |
| rantom | But until the one-click-flashers come available from Nokia itself I won't root my N9 | 21:13 |
| chris_ | ieatlint, in meego it is too | 21:13 |
| cos^ | there is apps.formeego.com if you want proper repository with updates & all | 21:14 |
| rantom | True | 21:14 |
| ieatlint | cos^: yeah, QA | 21:14 |
| cos^ | but i don't think it supports commercial sw | 21:14 |
| ieatlint | rantom: also, don't expect a OCF for the n9 to ever come out | 21:14 |
| chris_ | coffee costs money | 21:14 |
| rantom | But, correct me if I'm wrong, it can mess the device up? Or was that the -testing repository, the "unofficial testing repository for Harmattan"/etc? | 21:14 |
| rantom | ieatlint: Yep, kind of prepared for that | 21:15 |
| rantom | Maybe I'll root it in.. 2013 October when the warranty is out :D | 21:15 |
| ieatlint | i'm not clear what you mean by "root" it | 21:15 |
| ieatlint | you mean the openmode stuff? | 21:16 |
| rantom | Yes | 21:16 |
| chris_ | he means killing aegis | 21:16 |
| rantom | Well not necessarily | 21:16 |
| ieatlint | ah, yeah, how's the cert stuff going with that? | 21:16 |
| ieatlint | last i heard things like ssl and accounts didn't work | 21:16 |
| rantom | But I mean enabling developer-mode and alternative sources to install packages | 21:16 |
| rantom | But maybe replacing Aegis too, if I can find some use for it | 21:17 |
| rantom | ieatlint: I think they do work now just fine | 21:17 |
| chris_ | I openmoded one of my n9's, still cant install with proper certs | 21:17 |
| rantom | nvm then | 21:17 |
| ieatlint | well, you can do alternative sources without even enabling dev mode | 21:18 |
| rantom | ieatlint: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81579 | 21:18 |
| rantom | Yeah | 21:18 |
| rantom | But I'll stick with the Ovi Store for now | 21:19 |
| rantom | I do have the N950 too so | 21:19 |
| thp | M4rtinK: here now | 21:19 |
| rantom | No need to worry about the warranty in that :) | 21:19 |
| rantom | Some sort of update of the Ovi Store or the broken apps would be nice though | 21:21 |
| rantom | Since I can't install Air UI nor Speed Test (as I mentioned earlier) | 21:22 |
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| ZogG_laptop | M4rtinK: i saw you port of gtk+ + python | 21:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | is there any app using it alrady? | 21:33 |
| ZogG_laptop | already* | 21:33 |
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| divan | Is there a howto how to create Dummy network for USB Networking for N9(50), like in N900? | 22:09 |
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| dm8tbr | isn't that just SDK mode? | 22:24 |
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| M4rtinK | ZogG_laptop: I got unmodified modRana running | 22:33 |
| M4rtinK | modRana uses Cairo and GTK through PyGTK | 22:33 |
| M4rtinK | but haven't heard about any other uses so far | 22:34 |
| M4rtinK | also, there are three main issues: plain GTK widgets look ugly without that Hildon theme/tweaks, virtual keyboard is not triggered and it won't build in some OBS repositories | 22:36 |
| admiral0 | M4rtinK: pics or it didn't happen | 22:39 |
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| M4rtinK | admiral0: http://modrana.org/images/N950/ | 22:45 |
| admiral0 | gtk widgets screenshots? | 22:46 |
| M4rtinK | also, if somebody is interested in continuing the porting effort, everything is in: https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3AMartinK%3Agtk | 22:47 |
| M4rtinK | the gtk-fremantle package | 22:47 |
| M4rtinK | well, that's a gtk.Widget drawn by Cairo :) | 22:48 |
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| M4rtinK | admiral0: this is how a dialogue + label and entry box look like: http://modrana.org/images/N950/N950_modRana_GTK_entry_widget.jpg | 22:58 |
| M4rtinK | would need either a proper theme | 22:59 |
| M4rtinK | or at least a device specific size | 22:59 |
| M4rtinK | also note that id does not trigger the virtual keyboard | 22:59 |
| admiral0 | interesting | 23:00 |
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| M4rtinK | seems also quite fast on the N950 BTW | 23:03 |
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| admiral0 | cpu/gpu combo is better | 23:12 |
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| M4rtinK | yeah | 23:29 |
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| coffetime | hi there | 23:46 |
| coffetime | I have a sqlite database and I don't want it to be readable | 23:47 |
| coffetime | by user | 23:47 |
| coffetime | just my app | 23:47 |
| coffetime | what's the best solution? | 23:47 |
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| djszapi | aegisfs and protected storage. | 23:48 |
| coffetime | it's a readonly database | 23:48 |
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| coffetime | any documents on aegisfs? | 23:48 |
| * admiral0 interested too | 23:49 | |
| djszapi | coffetime: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Developing_for_Harmattan_Harmattan_security.html | 23:49 |
| coffetime | ty | 23:50 |
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| djszapi | you can have weaker defenses too, like no readable flag set, but that is not that safe. | 23:52 |
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| admiral0 | ok | 23:53 |
| admiral0 | so aegisfs is like a ecryptfs with different name and belonging to group crypto | 23:55 |
| djszapi | no | 23:55 |
| admiral0 | ? | 23:56 |
| djszapi | there are huge differences between them | 23:56 |
| admiral0 | nice trick protecting /proc btw | 23:57 |
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