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| marsje | I have some path issues in N('s terminal | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| marsje | how do I add /sbin to the path? | 00:11 |
| djszapi | export PATH=/sbin:${PATH} or something similar | 00:13 |
| djszapi | but why would you do that ? | 00:13 |
| marsje | because I'm trying out sshuttle | 00:14 |
| marsje | that needs iptables | 00:14 |
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| marsje | which it cannot find | 00:14 |
| djszapi | how often do you use it ? | 00:14 |
| marsje | 1st now :) | 00:14 |
| djszapi | just /sbin/... | 00:14 |
| marsje | and if it works, often | 00:14 |
| djszapi | type* | 00:14 |
| djszapi | why not ssh ? | 00:14 |
| deram | why not point it straight without using PATH to seek it? | 00:14 |
| marsje | I mean, the tool sshuttle calls iptables | 00:14 |
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| marsje | and I did not make sshuttle, so in theory I don't control where it looks for iptables | 00:15 |
| djszapi | well, go figure out what the terminal use and google for profile and all that jazz :) | 00:16 |
| djszapi | if you wanna set it automatically. | 00:16 |
| marsje | I see there is a .profile which sets the path, but it's for bash, and it seems I'm not running bash | 00:16 |
| djszapi | why run sshuttle manually from terminal often ? | 00:16 |
| marsje | if you have a better idea I love to hear | 00:17 |
| djszapi | of course, it would not be a trouble for bash. | 00:17 |
| djszapi | marsje: write an app, or use ssh | 00:17 |
| marsje | sshuttle combines ssh and iptables into a simple vpn | 00:17 |
| marsje | so ssh is not the same as sshuttle | 00:18 |
| marsje | as far as I understand it | 00:18 |
| djszapi | I have never said | 00:18 |
| marsje | just ssh does not do what I need | 00:18 |
| djszapi | but you could run sshuttle over ssh and it would be in the path by default. | 00:18 |
| marsje | I need vpn-like functionality | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | .profile is for all bourne shells AFAIK | 00:18 |
| marsje | you mean ssh to myself so I have a bash shell? | 00:19 |
| djszapi | no | 00:19 |
| djszapi | I mean use ssh from your host PC. | 00:19 |
| marsje | I am | 00:19 |
| marsje | I ssh to my phone | 00:19 |
| marsje | to setup sshuttle | 00:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | bussybox even sources .bashrc | 00:19 |
| mgedmin | really??? | 00:20 |
| djszapi | so the path should work from ssh | 00:20 |
| marsje | then I do devel-su | 00:20 |
| djszapi | btw ls -lda /bin/sh shows busyox | 00:20 |
| marsje | what does that do? | 00:20 |
| djszapi | busybox for sure | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, thanks to .profile iirc | 00:20 |
| mgedmin | well, if .profile sources .bashrc, then sure | 00:20 |
| djszapi | so you need to figure out the profiling in busybox, if you wanna ignore ssh | 00:20 |
| mgedmin | but it's not busybox then | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, not exactly | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | just the .profile that comes with busybox | 00:21 |
| mgedmin | but not the one on the n9 | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-D | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm | 00:21 |
| marsje | the .profile sources .bashrc in case the shell is bash | 00:21 |
| marsje | which is not the case it seems | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh? I had to code this test by hand myself | 00:21 |
| djszapi | marsje: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-users/2006-January/000450.html | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | not on N9 though | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | on N900 I think | 00:22 |
| djszapi | so this is what you basically need: "~/.profile". | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, N950: | 00:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | # ~/.profile: executed by Bourne-compatible login shells. | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | if [ -f ~/.bashrc ]; then | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | . ~/.bashrc | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | fi | 00:23 |
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| djszapi | or just install bash :D | 00:23 |
| mgedmin | interesting | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | ""interesting"" indeed | 00:24 |
| marsje | I copy/pasted the PATH thing from the .profile and executed it and that seems to work, for this session | 00:24 |
| marsje | unix shells confuse the hell out of me | 00:24 |
| djszapi | that is what I said you above | 00:24 |
| djszapi | but it does not mean it is automated. | 00:24 |
| marsje | I might script it | 00:25 |
| djszapi | nope | 00:25 |
| djszapi | put what I said above into this file: /home/user/.profile | 00:25 |
| marsje | you mean in that link? | 00:25 |
| djszapi | no, this one: export PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:$PATH | 00:26 |
| marsje | ah ok | 00:26 |
| marsje | yes, I'll do that | 00:26 |
| Avengence | SpeedEvil: when wp7 first came out, m$ tried just that. they contacted top iphoen app developers and offrered cash up front to port to wp7. most said no | 00:26 |
| SpeedEvil | ow. | 00:27 |
| SpeedEvil | I missed that. | 00:27 |
| djszapi | yes, it is pretty normal in this industry. | 00:28 |
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| marsje | oh no.. :( | 00:30 |
| marsje | I get: iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `nat': Permission denied (you must be root) | 00:30 |
| djszapi | try behing develsh | 00:30 |
| marsje | I did it as root | 00:30 |
| marsje | well, "root" | 00:30 |
| djszapi | wrong | 00:30 |
| djszapi | try behind develsh | 00:30 |
| marsje | how do I do that? | 00:31 |
| marsje | I only know devel-su, so far | 00:31 |
| djszapi | type this: devel-sh | 00:31 |
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| djszapi | or develsh | 00:31 |
| TSCHAK | seriously, it's just mind boggling how hard microsoft is trying to push wp7, even when the marketplace is just saying, uh...no. | 00:32 |
| djszapi | it is actually saying yes. Pretty good reviews so far. | 00:32 |
| marsje | djszapi: develsh is right... who am I now? | 00:32 |
| djszapi | type: whoami -> developer | 00:32 |
| admiral0 | TSCHAK: lol | 00:33 |
| djszapi | sorry, user | 00:33 |
| djszapi | or root that you will get | 00:33 |
| djszapi | but it all does not matter | 00:33 |
| TSCHAK | it's a jedi mind trick that isn't really working. | 00:33 |
| djszapi | Venemo said the opposite. | 00:33 |
| marsje | whoami -> user | 00:34 |
| djszapi | does not really matter | 00:34 |
| djszapi | just run your vpn stuff | 00:34 |
| Venemo | hey djszapi :) | 00:35 |
| Venemo | what's up? | 00:35 |
| djszapi | Venemo: people swearing about WP7 this time :) | 00:35 |
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| djszapi | you could probably tell more with more experience than me. | 00:36 |
| Venemo | I haven't yet tried to push my app into marketplace | 00:36 |
| Venemo | so no experience there. | 00:36 |
| djszapi | they have not mentioned windows marketplace yet | 00:36 |
| djszapi | just the platform itself afaiu | 00:36 |
| Venemo | well | 00:37 |
| Venemo | I will not argue with anyone's personal taste. | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem with porting from iphone to wp7 is that they have nothing at all in common | 00:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i guess that hasn't stopped people from porting from iphone to android | 00:37 |
| djszapi | nor android, and all the other players. | 00:38 |
| djszapi | angry birds* | 00:38 |
| admiral0 | itsnotabigtruck: problem is no native APIs | 00:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right | 00:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm surprised there's been so little iphone -> n9 porting, even despite the n9 being a niche phone | 00:38 |
| djszapi | admiral0: there will be soon though | 00:38 |
| admiral0 | iphone -> android -> C++ apps | 00:39 |
| djszapi | and it has already been available internally inside companies like ours for a year or so | 00:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | since you could have the backend in c/c++, the iphone frontend in obj-c/cocoa, and the n9 frontend in c++/qt | 00:39 |
| marsje | djszapi: guess sshuttle is not compatible with the weird way meego works on the N9. I get (as user): [local su] su: must be suid to work properly | 00:40 |
| djszapi | marsje: use devel-su | 00:40 |
| djszapi | and then develsh | 00:40 |
| marsje | ah! | 00:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, try devel-su -c 'blahblah' | 00:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and enter rootme as the password | 00:41 |
| marsje | already changed the pw | 00:41 |
| djszapi | marsje: so ideally, it is better to use develsh, and apparently in certain cases even root. | 00:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it would be nice having aptitude on this thing :( | 00:41 |
| marsje | djszapi: I get a slightly different error now, but I think there is some progress: iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `nat': Table does not exist (do you need to insmod?) | 00:43 |
| djszapi | insmod will not work without security hole. Well, I have no clue then :) | 00:43 |
| marsje | damn | 00:44 |
| djszapi | oh yes, nat is forgetable on Harmattan | 00:44 |
| * ieatlint loves that exciting moment when the security guard at the datacenter realizes he gave you the wrong badge that gives you access to things you shouldn't | 00:44 | |
| marsje | djszapi: you have nat then? | 00:44 |
| djszapi | marsje: I could, but I also have RDC :P | 00:45 |
| marsje | R&D mode? | 00:45 |
| marsje | or what is RDC? | 00:45 |
| djszapi | long story short, you cannot inject stuff into kernel space. | 00:45 |
| djszapi | (unless you use the openmode kernel obviously) | 00:46 |
| marsje | geez, this N9 is neutered like crazy | 00:46 |
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| djszapi | (or some userspace security vulnerability) | 00:46 |
| marsje | all the things that II bought the N( for I can't do | 00:46 |
| marsje | N9 | 00:46 |
| djszapi | you wanna buy N900 | 00:46 |
| djszapi | or use openmode stuff | 00:47 |
| marsje | I thought when I turn on "developer mode" in the settings, I would be in open mode | 00:47 |
| marsje | but it's all just fake | 00:47 |
| marsje | does anyone have openvpn running without open mode? | 00:48 |
| djszapi | no, that would be super simple to abuse then | 00:48 |
| marsje | abused by whom? | 00:48 |
| marsje | me? | 00:48 |
| djszapi | by anybody setting that setting from code for instance | 00:48 |
| marsje | my debian server can switch to root by just typingthe password | 00:49 |
| mgedmin | well, you could have an aegis token that only lets the official settings app switch to open mode, in theory | 00:49 |
| marsje | the thing hangs on the internet 24/7 with a fixed ip address | 00:49 |
| marsje | is this insecure? | 00:49 |
| djszapi | yes, kernel.org was also hacked because such a poor security stuff. Missed it ? | 00:49 |
| marsje | but it would be my responsibility | 00:49 |
| djszapi | no | 00:49 |
| mgedmin | otoh the vol+ camera hack shows that apps can use XTest to drive other apps in a way that's not distinguishable from the user | 00:50 |
| djszapi | since the ui testing is not protected by the platform, such Ui stuff are vulnerability anyway | 00:51 |
| djszapi | marsje: kernel.org was on the internet 24/7/365, and still got hacked. | 00:52 |
| marsje | yes, I know | 00:52 |
| marsje | everything can get hacked | 00:52 |
| marsje | nokia could have decided not to put a battery in the n9 or no internet connection | 00:52 |
| marsje | that would make ist very secure | 00:52 |
| marsje | but not very useful | 00:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | marsje: the phrase "open mode" gets thrown around a lot but it means loading a custom kernel, specifically one that doesn't have aegis enforcement | 00:52 |
| marsje | so it's always a trade off | 00:53 |
| djszapi | no internet connection would not be enough. | 00:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | apparently it works perfectly, as long as you wipe and reload everything at the same time | 00:53 |
| marsje | but since I gave nokia 500 euros I would like to have a say in this trade off | 00:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that allows you to "root" your n9 | 00:53 |
| marsje | you mean install en open mode kernel? | 00:53 |
| djszapi | marsje: why did you pay for something you do not like ? | 00:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's in contrast with "secure mode" (normal) and "developer mode" (what you get in the options) | 00:53 |
| djszapi | smarter people sent back the device after they did not like it. | 00:54 |
| djszapi | marsje: whereas, with custom kernel, you will lose the warranty for your 500 EUR phone. | 00:54 |
| marsje | not sure how easy that is | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: because they like everything else, just not the perverted security regime? you seem to be the only one around here who defends it | 00:54 |
| djszapi | well, you normally have 24 hour or so to send back, if you do not like it. | 00:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and has been since inception | 00:55 |
| marsje | well, these things you only found out later | 00:55 |
| marsje | it's not on the website | 00:55 |
| marsje | it's not in the manual | 00:55 |
| marsje | it's not something you find out in 24 hours | 00:55 |
| mgedmin | isn't it like 14 days in the EU to return a purchase for any reason? (with lots of exceptions) | 00:55 |
| djszapi | marsje: it /is/ in the documentation. | 00:55 |
| marsje | anyway, I have it more than 2 weeks | 00:55 |
| marsje | and I think the webshop will say: fuck you | 00:56 |
| admiral0 | djszapi: the loss of warranty is also for hardware? | 00:56 |
| djszapi | admiral0: yes, it is only for that | 00:56 |
| mgedmin | I'm sure lots of people would be happy to buy a discounted N9 and happily use it without even knowing what Aegis is ;) | 00:56 |
| marsje | djszapi: swipe.nokia.com/manual/? | 00:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the question is, does loading a hacked kernel flip a bit in the bootloader that can't be flipped back | 00:56 |
| marsje | mgedmin: I doubt it actually | 00:56 |
| djszapi | marsje: Platform Security documentation. Probably first result on google still. | 00:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or can one, in the event that a mostly-functioning unit has problems, flash it back and send it back | 00:57 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: yes, of course. | 00:57 |
| djszapi | I mean it is trackable. | 00:57 |
| djszapi | but it sounds weird you are thinking of cheating. | 00:58 |
| djszapi | marsje: learning cost for you to evaluate such expenses devices a bit more next time :/ | 00:58 |
| djszapi | after one year, you can flash an own kernel since the warranty expires. | 00:59 |
| djszapi | 1 or so. | 00:59 |
| djszapi | expensive* | 00:59 |
| marsje | djszapi: I did some googling and reading on forums before I decided to buy | 00:59 |
| marsje | djszapi: but it is not as easy as you make it seem | 00:59 |
| marsje | there are a dozen of websites, official and non-official | 00:59 |
| marsje | mailinglists, irc | 00:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: do you know, or are you just assuming | 01:00 |
| djszapi | marsje: I was speaking about official documentation, not small-talkers on X forums :) | 01:00 |
| marsje | with contradictory or incomplete or invalid or outdated information | 01:00 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: actually, I cannot talk about such details covered by NDA | 01:00 |
| marsje | djszapi: I'm looking, and I'm sure you are right, but it's not obvious | 01:00 |
| marsje | all docs are aimed at app developers | 01:01 |
| marsje | not as power users | 01:01 |
| djszapi | marsje: you have not checked out the Platform Security documentation then. | 01:01 |
| marsje | this? http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Platform_Guide | 01:01 |
| djszapi | marsje: when did you buy the device ? | 01:02 |
| marsje | a month ago | 01:02 |
| djszapi | try to get rid of the device then on some IT sales site or so. | 01:03 |
| djszapi | you can mention there is still 11 months guarantee, for instance. | 01:03 |
| marsje | it does not solve my problem in wanted a device that does what I want | 01:03 |
| admiral0 | djszapi: 2 years in EU | 01:04 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | i thought this channel was supposed to be about getting the most out of your phone, not blindly defending harebrained security schemes | 01:04 |
| djszapi | marsje: but as far as I see, you have two problems now at least. | 01:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeeesh | 01:04 |
| marsje | and I feel both hardware and software of the N9 is capable, in theory, to do all I want | 01:04 |
| marsje | it has just some limitations | 01:04 |
| Avengence | lol at the warranty void screenshot. nokia hasn't paid very good attention to laws and precedent set by courts. loading alternate software doesn't void the warranty in sensible jurisdictions. they still have to honor it if somthing breaks not due to software (say, exploding lithium battery) | 01:05 |
| djszapi | they will, if you can prove it. | 01:05 |
| marsje | I just want warranty on the hardware | 01:06 |
| djszapi | marsje: forget openvpn for guarantee - 1 month then. | 01:06 |
| Avengence | software always disclaims all warranties anyway somewhere in the eula, betwen where they say it does nothing they claim and they can take it away any time they want for any reason | 01:07 |
| marsje | you mean I cannot get a vpn to work without voiding the warrantee? | 01:07 |
| djszapi | not really, at least not nicely. | 01:08 |
| Avengence | software might actually be usable and not hated by 99.99% of the world if it had to actually work | 01:08 |
| djszapi | look at the reviews, it is actually pretty amazing according to the users. | 01:08 |
| marsje | this makes me tired | 01:08 |
| marsje | at 1st look the n9 is fantastic | 01:08 |
| djszapi | please do not think some complaining people is any measurable to most of the users. | 01:08 |
| djszapi | are* | 01:09 |
| marsje | but I have problems with teh functionality | 01:09 |
| marsje | and I'm not talking about the geek things I try to do | 01:09 |
| djszapi | you had to use custom kernel on N900 as well anyway | 01:09 |
| marsje | but for example connecting to google mail/talk | 01:09 |
| djszapi | so it is not any distinct... /me is not understanding the problem. | 01:09 |
| djszapi | you can connect to google mail and talk, of course. | 01:10 |
| marsje | sometimes you can | 01:10 |
| marsje | sometimes you can't | 01:10 |
| djszapi | :))) | 01:10 |
| djszapi | works for me.. | 01:10 |
| marsje | it says: incorrect password | 01:10 |
| djszapi | have you reported a bug with steps to reproduce ? | 01:11 |
| marsje | well, if it was easy to reproduce, I guess it would already be solved | 01:11 |
| marsje | it has worked then it stopped working | 01:11 |
| marsje | not sure why | 01:11 |
| marsje | maybe it forgot the passwords... | 01:11 |
| marsje | the facebook account also says "incorrect password" ,but the notification screen shows facebook items | 01:12 |
| djszapi | no, easy to reproduce does not automatically mean, it is already solved. | 01:12 |
| marsje | I know | 01:13 |
| djszapi | but that is really the first entry point you need to put the effort in before trying to get any help with. | 01:13 |
| marsje | but the other way around is usually true | 01:13 |
| marsje | hard to reproduce, does not get solved | 01:13 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends. In some cases, a good report can lead to hard-to-reproduce bugs being fixable. | 01:14 |
| SpeedEvil | Depends on the result, and the code. | 01:14 |
| marsje | well, if I have an issue that is easy to reproduce, I will ask for help here or report the bug | 01:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | bug reports to corporations by outsiders never accomplished anything anyway | 01:14 |
| marsje | but where do you go when you don't know how to reproduce? | 01:14 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | even with incredibly specific repro steps and things like that | 01:15 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: you ignoring reading the fixed bugs on the tracker ? | 01:15 |
| djszapi | (not just Nokia, in general) | 01:15 |
| marsje | there are always too many bugs anyway | 01:15 |
| djszapi | marsje: write to technical help desk, or just file a bug, and they will tell you what to provide for them ? | 01:15 |
| djszapi | please be more intuitive for your bug getting fixed. If you do not even report it, how do you expect any help with ? | 01:16 |
| djszapi | but general guideline: console output, syslog, etc. | 01:16 |
| marsje | I don't... I just pray someone within nokia has already figured it out | 01:16 |
| marsje | or maybe I will figure it out myself | 01:17 |
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| marsje | yeah, I have looked | 01:17 |
| marsje | lgging on the n9 is bad | 01:17 |
| marsje | very few log messages and if I get any, I have no idea what it means | 01:17 |
| marsje | checking the log is the 1st thing that I do.. | 01:17 |
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| marsje | how do I change the password of a facebook account? | 01:18 |
| marsje | on the n9 I mean of course | 01:18 |
| marsje | delete I guess... | 01:18 |
| mgedmin | it asks when it can't connect using the old one | 01:19 |
| mgedmin | (even when the old one is still correct) | 01:19 |
| marsje | yes, this is what I get | 01:19 |
| mgedmin | and if you dismiss the facebook auth dialog a few times, it deletes the facebook account for you | 01:19 |
| marsje | sometimes | 01:19 |
| mgedmin | (even if the old password was correct and you did not want to bloody keep re-adding the facebook account every bloody week) | 01:19 |
| marsje | ah, so I;m not the only one... | 01:20 |
| marsje | I have this for both gmail and facebook | 01:22 |
| marsje | for gmail I have 2 factor authentication, so each time the n9 forgets the password I have to go to google account settings to request a new 16 digit random password and re-enter it | 01:22 |
| djszapi | marsje: for me night, but feel free to poke me with security issues in the future. | 01:23 |
| mgedmin | I've a similar problem with gtalk, but it never deletes my account at least | 01:23 |
| mgedmin | and succeeds when I retry | 01:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hmm, i just dpkg -x'd a package, now i have a folder that won't go away | 01:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | owned by root:root and devel-su -c 'rm -rf /home/developer/tmp' doesn't do anything | 01:25 |
| marsje | djszapi: thanks! | 01:26 |
| marsje | mgedmin: I just deleted my fb and google accounts and re-added and now they are operational again | 01:26 |
| admiral0 | djszapi: i've found a security issue | 01:26 |
| marsje | but it seems when I'm not connected to the internet, it tries to connect, I cancel and that makes the n9 very angry | 01:27 |
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| admiral0 | djszapi: nokia is using "security through obscurity" for the UI | 01:27 |
| djszapi | admiral0: huh ? | 01:28 |
| admiral0 | djszapi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity on meegotouchhome-nokia | 01:29 |
| admiral0 | XD | 01:29 |
| djszapi | I am tired for this, sorry :) | 01:29 |
| marsje | me too | 01:30 |
| djszapi | obscurity mostly means according to my half a year experience here, people are just newbie (respect to the exceptions). | 01:30 |
| admiral0 | djszapi: come on, mine was a joke | 01:30 |
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| djszapi | and mine was a fact :) | 01:31 |
| admiral0 | :P | 01:31 |
| admiral0 | expect sotiris laughing tommorrow morning when reading mail | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | apps.formeego.org doesn't exist anymore, does it | 01:36 |
| djszapi | why wouldn't it except a temporary down time ? | 01:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because it looks pretty inoperative right now, and i haven't seen many references to it lately? | 01:38 |
| djszapi | I do not think it is over. It is actually right the opposite, they got the community policies after a long fight, the client is evolving... | 01:40 |
| djszapi | so I think you are just either misinformed or misspeculated :) | 01:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, you could have said earlier that 'aegis-community-source-policy grants extra permissions to things from apps.formeego.org' instead of being a prick about it | 01:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the description says approximately nothing | 01:41 |
| djszapi | huh ? | 01:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's what it does, it installs an aegis manifest with a long list of permissions for source apps.formeego.org | 01:41 |
| djszapi | wrong | 01:42 |
| djszapi | it is not just for apps.formeego.org, it is - as its name says - a community policy, not really just strictly tied to apps4meego. | 01:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, someone has to own the key, no? | 01:42 |
| djszapi | Nokia does. | 01:42 |
| djszapi | since it comes from Nokia proper anyway. | 01:43 |
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| djszapi | and as said, anybody can be identified against that after all. It would really be nasty to get it tight to only one community project. | 01:43 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | anybody nokia delegates the key to | 01:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and that means it does nothing up to very little to relax aegis for hacker users | 01:51 |
| djszapi | Nokia delegates the key to the community... | 01:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | all it does is offer a subset of ovi permissions to "community" sites | 01:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, everyone's part of the community, is nokia going to give me the private key? hell nah, and i wouldn't expect them to | 01:51 |
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| djszapi | not really, no. You do not still understand the point behind. | 01:51 |
| djszapi | It is by far not "a subset" | 01:52 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | but what i do expect them to do is not to try and withhold the keys to the user's own castle | 01:52 |
| Avengence | if its not a subset, where teh fuck is my key!? | 01:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't disagree with the aegis concept, but i do disagree with the idea of keeping me out of parts of my own equipment | 01:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | normally with a mac system, the owner has the final say | 01:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this isn't that | 01:53 |
| djszapi | community is community, exactly what it says | 01:53 |
| * Avengence is roughly planning a project to replace N9 OS with something that actually has real security AND lets the user control it | 01:53 | |
| djszapi | no guarantee, but since it is a dead end stuff anyway, they give out to almost anybody anyway | 01:53 |
| djszapi | but surely, you know better than people working in Harmattan :) | 01:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you can play word games all day but the fact of the matter is that with aegis, nokia has the final say, not the user | 01:54 |
| * djszapi is roughly planning to add one person to ignore list | 01:54 | |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: that is exactly the damn point, if you have not realized. | 01:54 |
| djszapi | have been saying it for ages. | 01:55 |
| djszapi | the user of the security framework controls everything. | 01:56 |
| djszapi | I think it would not bother to actually begin reading the documentation, as in RTFM | 01:56 |
| Avengence | djszapi: whoop dee doo, you're nothing but a worthless tool | 01:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Developing_for_Harmattan_Harmattan_security_Security_guide_Security_domain_overview.html note "Goals of Harmattan security framework" bullet points 2, 3, 4 | 01:57 |
| itsnotabigtruck | "applications should not be able to change the device parameters in a way that the device would violate regulations" | 01:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | "A malicious user or malicious application should not be able to disable such a lock. Additionally, some Harmattan device distribution channels may require installation or blocking of certain applications or services without a possibility for users or applications to change these settings." | 01:58 |
| djszapi | what don't you understand from there ? Sounds very clear. | 01:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the idea is that some things users might want to do aren't good for business | 01:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aegis is designed to impede such things | 01:59 |
| djszapi | exactly, that is why Nokia has not cared about 10-20 developers here that much | 01:59 |
| Avengence | some nice finglish on that page | 01:59 |
| djszapi | thanks for confirming :) | 02:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | sometimes convo with /ignore actually is funny too | 02:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, that would seem to go against the idea of "normally with a mac system, the owner has the final say" (where 'owner' is the person who bought the phone) | 02:00 |
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| * djszapi has better things to do, so afk. | 02:01 | |
| Avengence | DocScrutinizer: ignore just fuels the lols and trolls, so i love it but don't use it | 02:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, to be fair, i can understand why nokia put aegis in, but at the same time, i also don't have to likeit | 02:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because it simply isn't in the interest of the end user, much of the time | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: I had no choice. Or rather, my choice was between /ignore and acting in a way that would bring me BIG trouble | 02:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | fwiw: | 02:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~aegis | 02:02 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 02:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: your quote is way better stiull | 02:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 02:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | aegis is designed to "fsck user" | 02:03 |
| Avengence | tbh, if aegis was in any user documentation or really anywhere not buried, i wouldn't have bought the phone. I mean, if I wanted to overpay for a phone that I have no control of, I'd buy another iphone (and have less bugs, more apps, etc) | 02:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | heh | 02:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Avengence: well, on the flip side of the coin, i just spent a long time whining about aegis, but the N9 with the official dev mode on is way more open than almost any other phone without hacks | 02:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and it seems that aegis can be completely neutralized if you hate it that much | 02:04 |
| Avengence | knowing now how shoddy most of the default apps are, how poor the security is for protecting user data, how braindamaged some of the basic infrastructucture is, how user-hostile and useless aegis is... | 02:04 |
| M4rtinK | well, there is still Nemo - but using it means dumping the otherwise functioning Harmattan completely | 02:04 |
| Avengence | I can't help but to at least take a shot at rolliing a non-suck OS | 02:04 |
| Avengence | open kernel, sane filesystem layout, actually encryption of all user data, maybe open bootloader | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: (rather buy fruit) YEP! | 02:05 |
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| Avengence | itsnotabigtruck: i jailbroke my iphones for years and I had more with that than teh dev mode in N9. i have to go open kernel it seems to get that, and then its the same pain as jailbreak: double flashing updates and statring fresh (or nearly so) each time, thus wasting hours to get it back to similar state | 02:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Avengence: but it ships with an open bootloader (modulo the obnoxious bootup warning), allowing you then to install an open kernel | 02:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | open bootloader as in not locked, not as in open source | 02:07 |
| djszapi | the bootloader is locked | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: well, you can completely neuter / replace HARM en toto. But then, I'd expect a device like N9 to come with core apps (diealer, calendar, contacts...) that WORK _without_ assraping me with my ideas to tweak my maemo/meego phone that'S allegedly *linux* | 02:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also wiping the phone doesn't seem that bad, maybe because i'm used to my old nokia phone that wiped it even as part of normal firmware updates | 02:08 |
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| djszapi | you cannot replace the bootloader so the current bootloader might boot linux kernels, but probably BSD kernels are grey area and so on. | 02:08 |
| Avengence | the legally-laughable warning is enough for me to call the bootloader uinsufficiently open and desire to replace it with one that will load anything and the only noticeable difference is non-official kernel loading shows a nokia logo getting shattered/smashed/wahtever | 02:08 |
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| djszapi | the bootloader is completely locked. | 02:08 |
| Avengence | and yes, bsd kernel is already on my mind | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | HARM is *not* linux, when it comes to developing and maintenance | 02:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: to be exact, i mean that the bootloader allows booting third party modified firmware | 02:09 |
| Avengence | unless all teh flash blocks are wite locked, the bootloader is not locked | 02:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | not that one can replace the bootloader | 02:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | when people talk about 'open bootloaders' on android phones, they mean what i just described | 02:09 |
| djszapi | yes, be precise please. And nope, it does not allow BSD kernels probably. | 02:09 |
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| djszapi | they are quite confused then | 02:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why is that? the bootloader is 'open' in that it doesn't enforce 'closed' (signed official) firmware | 02:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | a real closed bootloader is what you have on the iphone, most android phones, the zune hd, and so on | 02:11 |
| djszapi | but as I have just said, it is not open | 02:11 |
| Avengence | to me, open means it does waht i say without enforcing someone else's agenda | 02:11 |
| djszapi | it does not allow many type of kernels.. | 02:11 |
| djszapi | and there are probably many grey areas as well in that sense. | 02:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, trying to boot anything not linux on the n9 is probably a lost cause...using linux, given that everything has working drivers already, just makes sense | 02:11 |
| Avengence | i'm going to guess they didn't use anything convienet like uboot or redboot, but rolled their own | 02:12 |
| Avengence | might be a lost cause, might not. doesn't hurt to try. there's plenty of spare flash space (most of it is unused swap patrition). bonus if the bootloader can boot something loaded in ram | 02:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: you bet they did | 02:13 |
| djszapi | I would never say, using debian in chroot makes any sense, but some person does it here. | 02:13 |
| djszapi | so it is a weak argument | 02:13 |
| djszapi | open is open, when it is completely open imo. | 02:14 |
| djszapi | partially open, partially close are not open to me. | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | called NOLO | 02:14 |
| Avengence | running through the thing in ida will probably be interesting | 02:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but the BL isn't the problem - core apps refusing to work decently in open mode are | 02:15 |
| Avengence | core apps just need a little shim | 02:16 |
| Avengence | for those that are worth using | 02:16 |
| Avengence | that's maps/drove and what else? | 02:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: wasn't that before it arose that if you wiped the phone (and thus aegis protected storage) when you flash the open kernel, it all works? | 02:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the issue, apparently, being that aegis protected storage was unreadable having been initialized with the wrong keys | 02:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | we had a rather lengthy session with first user trying it. Seems ther are still several dark corners where things break, like SSL certs | 02:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh. :( well that tempers my enthusiasm a bit | 02:18 |
| Avengence | i wouldn't be surprised if some dumb apps make some calls to aegis and die for no good reason if they don't get a response, so at worst just need something to pretend to be aegis for them | 02:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but at least there's progress being made | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | and of course migrating accounts isn't possible as well | 02:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but one could simply readd the accounts, right | 02:19 |
| Avengence | in reality, the aegis security is crap. it protects some things that don't need protecting and others it leaves wide open. it's clear trhe people who made it don't know jack shit about real security and risk mitigation | 02:19 |
| djszapi | not right | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: seems yes | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: ++ | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: maybe they know a bit about protecting system from user, though obviously not even that. While we actually got NOTHING worthy to protect on HARM, after all | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | I mean, in sense of | 02:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | btw for convenience here's the aegis manifest from the community security policy https://gist.github.com/d4a7389dd4c02d6fa5d4 | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~aegis | 02:21 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 02:21 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: no need, anybody can make a grep in the restok.conf | 02:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there IS NO >>third party software that requires a safe execution environment<< | 02:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and Nokia deliberately and openly states there wasn't any plan to get any, nor will there be any in the future | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | yet that's the ONLY purpose of whole aegis | 02:23 |
| djszapi | and it is the same as ovi after all... | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | so we got a security framework that's protecting a void-by-definition | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | while all "we care about protecting user privacy" is mere fairy tale | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | even more is "we protect use from rogue malware" | 02:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | user* | 02:26 |
| Avengence | not like aegis even provides a secure execution environment | 02:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | as OVI QA has NFC about difference between a legit fundraiser SMS app and a malware "pretend I'm fundraiser but really I send 500 SMS to "0900-fuck-is-fun" | 02:27 |
| Avengence | there's some facilities to stash away data that should be secured from other apps but its implemented in a way such that the user can never get said data back, so its not even decent as a keychain/wallet | 02:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it looks like community/ovi/developer-unknown are identical | 02:28 |
| Avengence | ovi qa is a joke. one of the first apps i tried was a free minesweeper that is comically bad. it crashes if you win, but that's only if it actually counts the win properly | 02:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | Avengence: ++ | 02:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 02:29 |
| djszapi | no, it does not | 02:30 |
| djszapi | there is no "developer" policy, firstly. | 02:30 |
| Avengence | not to dick wave, but I know a thing or two about actual security vs security theater. I put work into http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm?item=32640fd9-0213-4330-a742-55106fbaff32 and http://www2.l-3com.com/cs-east/ia/smeped/ie_ia_smeped.shtml and even those aren't secure enough for their purpose of use | 02:30 |
| djszapi | secondly, unknown has way less capability. | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | for all those platsec Nokia dudes out there (prolly useless as the one got me on his ignorelist as well): you did an awesome job, aegis is doing what's been specified by Nokia product damagers / designers | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not your fault that they have no clue about security | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | not even about their product strategy and policy obviously | 02:32 |
| Avengence | the former some may have heard of http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/01/22/1319212/obama-keeps-his-blackberry-and-gets-a-sectera | 02:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: i didn't say unknown, i said developer-unknown | 02:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | alas ow it's your aegis that makes every user shout "W*T*F?!" | 02:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why don't you do some grepping through restok.conf yourself | 02:32 |
| djszapi | thirdly, there is no "developer-unknown". | 02:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | https://gist.github.com/eaa31bb4e8031112b3be i put all the aegis-*-source-policy stuff in that gist | 02:33 |
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| SpeedEvil | And unfortunately, aegis gets blamed for a lot which is not its fault. | 02:33 |
| djszapi | really good night :) | 02:34 |
| SpeedEvil | Night. | 02:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | I can't help though but have to mention that you (platsec) obviously trusted too much in what's been promised for benefits of the whole security architecture. If you had bothered to think abouts it for a few minutes by yourself, you might have been able to notice the holes in the argumentation web | 02:35 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends. | 02:36 |
| SpeedEvil | If content providers like netflix mandate stuff, and that is what it seems likely users will want, then you have little option but to implement stuff. | 02:37 |
| Avengence | or tell netflix to fuckoff | 02:37 |
| SpeedEvil | At the point that maemo was expected to go into the 'next billion' phones - it made sense. | 02:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | or ask "where's this friggin netflix NOW??" | 02:37 |
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| Avengence | where's my skype video? | 02:38 |
| SpeedEvil | And yes. But it's hard to get people to rip out chunks of infrastructure. | 02:38 |
| Avengence | why can't i delete facebook and twitter? | 02:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Avengence: you can suppress facebook and twitter's icons | 02:38 |
| M4rtinK | where is my USB hostmode ? :D | 02:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | M4rtinK: HAHA | 02:38 |
| Avengence | itsnotabigtruck: i rather a big fat delete just to be sure | 02:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | M4rtinK: might ship with nemo | 02:39 |
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| Avengence | as it is, my home dns won't resolve any facebook domains, but being a phone it frequently could access them through other networks | 02:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | hw is brilliant, it's easy like eating cake | 02:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there has to be some way we can get an aegis-god-mode-source-policy installed :) | 02:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | M4rtinK: alas kernel is so :-X I don't even bother anymore to ponder alternatives to get H-E-N to N9 | 02:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | who would install a kernel that pops up a "you're doomed and your warranty just fucking with your poolboy" warning, just to get hostmode? | 02:41 |
| M4rtinK | if there was a big enough "next" button | 02:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, the other annoyance | 02:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | "you can use this car with bio-gas. Ypu just have to preheat the engine with a hairdryer for 30 min prior to starting it" | 02:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | "and of course you lose your waranty" | 02:44 |
| M4rtinK | "next" | 02:44 |
| * SpeedEvil was preheating an engine for 30 mins yesterday. | 02:44 | |
| SpeedEvil | It was a generator that hadn't started for 4 years. Really surprised it went first pull. Honda++ | 02:45 |
| Avengence | DocScrutinizer: that's part of why i'd replace/patch the bootloader as part of the installation process | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | community RE'd NOLO is tough | 02:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | n8 | 02:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | ps: we *might* consider using uBoot instead of NOLO, and use NOLO only temporary for flashing purposes | 02:51 |
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| Avengence | NOLO = NoLoader? | 02:53 |
| befr0d | nokia loader | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway in my book HARM is too much "dongled" to NOLO and secure mode and aegis. So yes, N9 is easy to root and run some anti-vendor-port on it (until it comes to cellmo and other closed stuff), but you won't do this under/with HARM | 02:53 |
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| Avengence | if we had a uboot port, there's be no reason not to use that for flashing as well. after all, since its not nokia firmware being flashed there's no reason to need their flash tool | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 02:54 |
| Avengence | i see the whole harmattan pile as just userland stuff on top of linux | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | n8 again | 02:54 |
| Avengence | we don't need their linux (beyond their drivres and such), just need the user environment to have the apps | 02:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why not keep the userland | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | switching out the entire os seems like an impossible task, which is why things like nemo will probably be forever missing core functionality | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | like making phone calls | 03:07 |
| itsnotabigtruck | really, it's just about having control over what's already there | 03:07 |
| Avengence | exactly, keep the useland mostly intact. replace kernel, relayout the filesystems (vfat, no thanks. encrypt the whole home), drop aegis, etc | 03:08 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | it would be nice to mod user programs to the bone, which is kinda impeded by most of them being closed source | 03:10 |
| Avengence | yes, would be nice if they were open so we could fix the bugs | 03:12 |
| Avengence | at least by taking over the base it's possible to do things like setup monitoring and automatic recover for those known to hang/die | 03:12 |
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| zx2c4 | so it looks like harmattan doesnt use wpa_supplicant? | 04:47 |
| Sazpaimon_ | it does not | 04:49 |
| Sazpaimon_ | but you can install the package from debian | 04:49 |
| Sazpaimon_ | i hear it works fine | 04:49 |
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| zx2c4 | does it integrate with teh connection manager? | 04:55 |
| zx2c4 | Sazpaimon_: can it coexisit, i mean? | 04:56 |
| Sazpaimon_ | dont think so | 04:56 |
| zx2c4 | or is it required to turn things off manually andkill processes | 04:56 |
| Sazpaimon_ | honestly have no idea, I haven't used it myself | 04:56 |
| zx2c4 | the issue is EAP-SIM | 04:58 |
| zx2c4 | Free Mobile in france just opened | 04:58 |
| zx2c4 | offering free wifi that blankets paris | 04:58 |
| zx2c4 | authenticated on smartphones via EAP-SIM | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | which of course | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | + | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | +++ | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | ddidnt mean to press plus key | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | which of course is unsupported by harmattan | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | and nokia says they're underresourced to implement it | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | but i figured i'd hack it into wpa_supplicant | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | but that looks tiresome if it's not going to play nicely with whatever EAP mechanism they already have in place -- eapd.real or w/e | 04:59 |
| zx2c4 | do you know what eapd is? | 05:00 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | zx2c4: hmm | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | is it open source? | 05:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think i have the gpl dvd iso image somewhere around here | 05:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | w00t gotta love tlas | 05:43 |
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| pawky_ | jonni: you who often know it all. Yesterday when wanting to test if my provider did some funny stuff with the 3g connection I stumbled upon some remarkable behaviour regarding the N9. Putting the phone into hot-spot mode choosing 128 bit encryption, the phone would enter ad-hoc mode letting anybody connect to it with no encryption what so ever. Whilst my tests for the provider went well 3.5mbit/1.5mbit. Do you have any ideas how this can be? I have r | 09:30 |
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| djszapi | pawky_: got truncated after "I have r..." | 09:31 |
| pawky_ | I have reset the phone, but still no difference. Could there be yet another hardware issue | 09:31 |
| SpeedEvil | It's not hardware | 09:31 |
| pawky_ | (damn irssi...) I have reset the phone, but still no difference. Could there be yet another hardware issue somewhere? | 09:31 |
| SpeedEvil | also - how are you putting it into hotspot mode? | 09:32 |
| pawky_ | using the hot-spot app.. | 09:32 |
| djszapi | probably joikuspot | 09:32 |
| pawky_ | might be :-) | 09:32 |
| pawky_ | the one that comes with the phone... | 09:32 |
| SpeedEvil | well - it's a bug in that | 09:32 |
| SpeedEvil | report it | 09:32 |
| pawky_ | But.... it worked on my other phones... | 09:33 |
| djszapi | yes, there are not many other options than that only application ;-) | 09:33 |
| djszapi | pawky_: tried 64 bit btw ? | 09:33 |
| djszapi | and different networkmanager on the host ? | 09:33 |
| pawky_ | hmm.... maybe, not sure... Will test tonight. | 09:33 |
| djszapi | also, how do you see it from the host in your networkmanager ? | 09:33 |
| djszapi | do you only see it "open" already before connecting ? | 09:34 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: used several computers, and my N900 with the same results.. | 09:34 |
| djszapi | just for making clear, you did not provide the requested outputs either last night. | 09:34 |
| pawky_ | the N9 only provides ad-hoc and no encryption... | 09:34 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: I thought I did, what did I miss? | 09:34 |
| djszapi | console, syslog, to say the least :) | 09:35 |
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| djszapi | (phone and host laptop wise) | 09:35 |
| pawky_ | well, I did write about that suspisious message I got in the syslog... | 09:36 |
| djszapi | that is not "pasting the requested information". | 09:36 |
| djszapi | that is something you thought might be relevant (but not really in fact) | 09:37 |
| pawky_ | Well, I will be able to give you all the information needed tonight :-) | 09:37 |
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| pawky_ | djszapi: might not be relevant to you, but interesting to me... ;-) | 09:37 |
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| djszapi | also, filing a bug without steps to reproduce and logs makes not much sense either. | 09:38 |
| pawky_ | I suspect there is some hardware issue with the wireless/3g chip.... | 09:38 |
| djszapi | everything is possible until further debugging.. | 09:38 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: well, the procedure is straight forward. Configure for 128 bit use. Start app, try to connect... | 09:39 |
| djszapi | cannot reproduce -> invalid. | 09:39 |
| djszapi | has been working for two years ;-) | 09:39 |
| pawky_ | It will be known to other computers as an unencrypted wireless unit, to which you can connect ad-hoc | 09:39 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: how were 'other computers connecting to it' ? | 09:40 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: can reproduce 100% of the time. As a matter of fact, thats the only thing the phone can do... | 09:40 |
| * djszapi asked the same questions yesterday without getting concrete answers ;) | 09:40 | |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: They connected using Wireless | 09:40 |
| pawky_ | and the unit was connected to 3g. | 09:40 |
| SpeedEvil | How do you know they were connected to it? | 09:40 |
| pawky_ | well.. they had the ip range it gave out.. The unit showed their MAC address on the allow deny list... and the speed achieved when doing download/upload test gave me a hint i was on 3g... | 09:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Then it's a bug in the app | 09:42 |
| SpeedEvil | report that. | 09:42 |
| djszapi | not neccesarily. | 09:42 |
| djszapi | and please do not report it without logs anyway | 09:42 |
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| djszapi | pawky_: what you should is provide log from phone and host side here, and if nothing works, reflash it. | 09:42 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: well.. could be... except for my two earlier N9 worked flawlessly on this matter... (they failed heavily on others though) | 09:42 |
| djszapi | you did many weird actions in the past anyways. you may have screwed up the phone. | 09:42 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: This is a NEW phone... | 09:43 |
| SpeedEvil | If the app is setup to say that it requires encryption, and it misconfigures the interface - this is a bug. | 09:43 |
| djszapi | please just follow my instruction... :) | 09:43 |
| djszapi | you tend to do make weird actions, start it with a clean reflash | 09:43 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: The first one, Nokia screwed up at manufacture, the second thought it had a newer version of the OS than it had and refused flashing... this is the 3rd. | 09:43 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: Don't blaim me for Nokias short comings regarding manufacturing this phone... | 09:44 |
| jonni | I cannot reproduce, 128bit web shows as 128bit web encryption in my mac and win7 | 09:44 |
| djszapi | pawky_: the problem is that I asked for thousand information, and got nothing | 09:44 |
| pawky_ | jonni: its so odd... the phone states it uses 128 bit encryption and shows the password needed (when clicking on that icon). | 09:45 |
| SpeedEvil | If you have not installed any software other than through ovi, and it is a purchased phone, then rpeort the bug. | 09:45 |
| djszapi | but he did... | 09:45 |
| djszapi | he wanted to backup the phone... | 09:45 |
| djszapi | pawky_: anyway, the entry point is to provide the information the people asked imo | 09:45 |
| djszapi | syslog, console, which connection manager on the host, whether you tried wep 64 and all that jazz. | 09:46 |
| jonni | and your running PR1.1? | 09:46 |
| pawky_ | jonni: so, you haven't heard of any problems with the 3g/wifi chip on these phones? | 09:46 |
| pawky_ | jonni: yup. | 09:46 |
| jonni | havent heard any problems | 09:46 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: will do, tonight | 09:46 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: It's not the chip | 09:46 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: The chip can't do that. | 09:46 |
| djszapi | yes, it can | 09:47 |
| djszapi | if it is broken. | 09:47 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: In order for it to act as a hotspot, the CPU has to be involved relaying the packets. | 09:47 |
| pawky_ | fair enough... | 09:47 |
| djszapi | even a memory issue can cause such issues, not just the chip. | 09:47 |
| pawky_ | but the issue I was actually trying to hunt down was wether the 3g chip had some issues.. | 09:47 |
| pawky_ | this was just the bonus part... | 09:47 |
| SpeedEvil | A memory issue is astoundingly unlikely to cause a persistant bug. | 09:47 |
| djszapi | it caused many times. | 09:48 |
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| djszapi | already. | 09:48 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: I would vote for that.. | 09:48 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: I mean, I second that | 09:48 |
| djszapi | it actually caused persistant bugs in many areas on various phones got bad memory. | 09:48 |
| pawky_ | It would be a bit more inconcistent, like my first phone, rebooting every 10 actions.. | 09:48 |
| SpeedEvil | Random bugs - sure. But programs are not loaded into deterministic addresses. | 09:49 |
| djszapi | like it popped up a warning dialog about open mode *persistantly* without custom kernel | 09:49 |
| SpeedEvil | That's probably the 'fault' of aegis. | 09:49 |
| djszapi | or the devicelock settings was *persistently* broken | 09:49 |
| pawky_ | Well, in my humble oppionion, the software tries to get the chip into one mode, but it gets interpreted differently.. | 09:50 |
| djszapi | nothing to do with aegis. | 09:50 |
| SpeedEvil | It's catching coruptions that would otherwise cause segfaults or random errors. | 09:50 |
| djszapi | it was the fault of the bad memory. | 09:50 |
| SpeedEvil | and interpreting it as someone modifying the files. | 09:50 |
| pawky_ | jonni:So you do not suspect there might be yet another hardware issue with this phone as well? | 09:50 |
| djszapi | pawky_: again, hard to tell without logs and information | 09:50 |
| djszapi | we are not magicians :) | 09:51 |
| jonni | pawky_: most likely no | 09:51 |
| SpeedEvil | 'normal' operations do not get predictable repeatable corruptions from memory errors. | 09:51 |
| pawky_ | These are the things i will check tonight: 128 bit (fetch logs), 64 bit, and in the end reflashing. Any more tests? | 09:51 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: ok, we have just dreamed these while developing internally :) | 09:51 |
| djszapi | more hundreds of us, sure ... ;) | 09:51 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: Umm - sure you will get aegis popping up warnings consistently on memory errors. Aegis is not a normal app - it's doing checksums. | 09:52 |
| djszapi | pawky_: yes, try command line connection on host. | 09:52 |
| pawky_ | What is most odd, is that it will enter ad-hoc mode, and not the... "whatever its called" mode. | 09:52 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: you lost the point. It was randomly an issue with anything, but persistently with that part. | 09:52 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: like? | 09:52 |
| djszapi | so a bad memory can corrupt anything *persistently*, not just aegis operation | 09:53 |
| pawky_ | as, the unit only will anounce itself in ad-hoc, thats what I can connect to it. | 09:53 |
| djszapi | someone had issues with contacts, accounts, messages, and the like. | 09:53 |
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| djszapi | pawky_: like iwconfig wlan0 mode ad-hoc && iwconfig wlan0 essid PawkyTest key s:XXX && dhclient wlan0 | 09:53 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: the persistance is only because of a specific property of aegis. It checksums files. Any memory error at all during a file read of a summed file will be detected. Without aegis - a memory error will 'just' cause silent corruption, or crash, or ... | 09:54 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: oh, that old stuff... ok, tedious but will do. | 09:55 |
| djszapi | anyway, it might be a hardware issue as well. | 09:55 |
| djszapi | since nothing is proven anyway :) | 09:55 |
| djszapi | pawky_: tedious to make an alias and type one keypress for a connection ? | 09:55 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: I believe jonni votes for a 'no' there... | 09:55 |
| djszapi | I never trust super ui apps :) | 09:55 |
| jonni | pawky_: be sure to run PR1.1, that web128 is ad-hoc connection anyways, if it doesnt ask for web key then you have a problem. | 09:55 |
| jonni | pawky_: and you can also test devel-su; echo 1 > /sys/devices/platform/wl1271/allow_adhoc | 09:56 |
| pawky_ | jonni:will do | 09:58 |
| jonni | afaik it always enters the ad.hoc mode, I'm not sure what mode are you expecting it to be. | 09:58 |
| pawky_ | The one all wireless routers are using.. the other one... | 09:59 |
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| pawky_ | (can't check... I am behind a "#¤! windows machine, for some hours to come..) | 09:59 |
| jonni | pawky_: that is not supported. N9 joikuspot only creates web128 as adhock | 09:59 |
| pawky_ | AP mode? | 09:59 |
| pawky_ | access point mode | 10:00 |
| jonni | pawky_: ap mode is not supported, | 10:00 |
| pawky_ | ok... interesting | 10:00 |
| jonni | pawky_: so it works as specified, n9 joikuspot always use adhoc | 10:00 |
| jonni | so its not a bug but a feature | 10:00 |
| pawky_ | ok, then i have to prove it does not use the encryption then. I thought the ad-hoc mode was fishy as well.. | 10:00 |
| pawky_ | lol... yeah, a feature | 10:01 |
| pawky_ | if all things fail, I will go for flashing this phone as well. This time I have well prepared for having all the right versions to flash. | 10:01 |
| jonni | I would only be worried it it doesnt ask for password when connecting and if it would still route trafic afterwards | 10:01 |
| pawky_ | jonni: very true indeed. It did anounce itself as being an open wireless without encryption on all my machines. | 10:02 |
| pawky_ | and, the N900 | 10:02 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: note, random issue can cause persistent issue | 10:03 |
| pawky_ | whilst the phone stating it was using 128 bit encryption. | 10:03 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: of course. | 10:03 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: If it corrupts filesystem | 10:03 |
| djszapi | not really | 10:03 |
| jonni | announce vs connecting, your machines can show old cached version of the annoucement. | 10:03 |
| pawky_ | fair enough, will double check. | 10:04 |
| SpeedEvil | And verify. | 10:04 |
| djszapi | sorry, I meant to say not really random aegis issue can cause only persistent issue. | 10:04 |
| pawky_ | did quite some network daemon restarts etc though.. | 10:04 |
| pawky_ | wireless on off... | 10:04 |
| SpeedEvil | 'connect' through phone, in the 'malfunctioning' manner - and then turn off the phone without touching the computer settings | 10:04 |
| pawky_ | and some log checks.. | 10:04 |
| SpeedEvil | verify the connection goes away | 10:04 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: will do | 10:05 |
| djszapi | I recommended the phone turn off last night, but it did not apparently take place either :) | 10:05 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: did it.. no difference | 10:06 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: I do listen to you, you know... Maybe not always keeping up responding... | 10:07 |
| djszapi | as for me, super ui apps never worked, just the skeleton console command if that helps you. | 10:07 |
| djszapi | and ppp never worked properly on my linux. | 10:08 |
| djszapi | I would not personally have used joikuspot, if ppp had worked | 10:08 |
| * SpeedEvil setup ppp the old way to use with his n900. | 10:09 | |
| pawky_ | I have no problems trying it through command line as well... | 10:09 |
| SpeedEvil | I think I first did it with my 33k6 modem. All that's changed is the port. | 10:09 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: can use my N900 as a client as well. | 10:09 |
| pawky_ | as a "different OS" option. | 10:10 |
| djszapi | pawky_: does the email client work properly for you ? It takes me sometimes hour to get any mails out of it. | 10:10 |
| pawky_ | The initial problem, why internet radio doesn't work on 3g still persists though. This bug was just a side effect when trying to prove wether it could be the provider or not. | 10:11 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: yes, except for Exchange (at times) but that might be my company.. | 10:11 |
| djszapi | you did not provide the required information on that front either ;-) | 10:11 |
| djszapi | right, it does not work for me on N9, nor on N950 with a simple gmail account | 10:12 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: well, i kind of got baffeled by this problem... | 10:12 |
| djszapi | tried with RDC, and without that too. | 10:12 |
| djszapi | but I heard others saying the same issue. | 10:12 |
| djszapi | (not everybody though) | 10:12 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: I have 2 hotmail, and 2 IMAP ordinary accounts + one exchange... all but exchange works from home. Exchange does from work (thus Ill bet its the windows guys) | 10:12 |
| pawky_ | as soon as I get this hot-spot thing cleared out, I will continue my research why internet radio works through Wifi and not 3g, when telnet nicely works through 3g to the station (BBC by example) | 10:14 |
| djszapi | pawky_: wish you the best :) | 10:14 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: I understand your hesitation using joikuspot, but it was for testing purposes, and I think its a nifty feature when connecting my transformer that lacks 3g connection | 10:15 |
| pawky_ | djszapi: Will need that... ;-) | 10:15 |
| djszapi | note, change the password frequently with joikuspot since it is wep | 10:15 |
| djszapi | I personally do it with every connection (~every single day). | 10:15 |
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| djszapiN950 | or at least check the connected pcs :) | 10:18 |
| rcg | actually... since its wep it doesn't matter whether you change the password or not.. _if_ someone wants to get your password its just a matter of seconds anyhow | 10:19 |
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| tabasko_ | annoying morning, N9 wakes me up and screen is unresponsive so I cannot switch alarm off :) | 10:20 |
| djszapiN950 | hehe :) | 10:21 |
| djszapiN950 | rcg seconds ?? | 10:21 |
| tabasko_ | does anybody else have this problem with calendar notify's/alarms and even phone ringins? :/ | 10:21 |
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| tabasko_ | after I turn screen of and on screen wakes up again | 10:21 |
| tabasko_ | I mean it takes gestures again | 10:22 |
| tabasko_ | I wondered if this due screenlock password so I turned it off so I can see if it takes effect. Feel bit unsecure now :) | 10:22 |
| rcg | djszapiN950: http://hirte.aircrack-ng.org/nextgen-wepcracker.pdf | 10:24 |
| rcg | and nowadays there are even more sophisticated methods for cracking wep.. iirc you don't even need that huge amount of packets to get the password | 10:25 |
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| rcg | essentially, if you use wep you could as well use none encryption at all if it comes to protecting you against attackers... only thing you get is that you keep other "normal users" from using your access point | 10:26 |
| SpeedEvil | And it provides a legal obstacle. | 10:27 |
| SpeedEvil | Anyone accessing it clearly does not have permission. | 10:27 |
| djszapiN950 | exactly | 10:27 |
| rcg | SpeedEvil: agreed | 10:27 |
| rcg | but well... when talking about "attackers" they don't mind legal aspects in the first place... i think | 10:27 |
| djszapiN950 | rcg interesting i had to spend one hour with it 8-10 years ago. :) | 10:28 |
| pawky_ | djszapi, sounds a bit paranoid to me, changing all wifi settings everywhere... but sure, that might keep you a bit more secure as long as the passphrases are true random. | 10:29 |
| pawky_ | tabasko_: its a don't be late feature... :-) | 10:29 |
| djszapiN950 | why paranoid ? according to my previous experience it was perfectly fine | 10:30 |
| djszapiN950 | i have 30-40 minutes traveling, so nobody could hack it anytime. | 10:30 |
| SpeedEvil | WEP can now be cracked in seconds | 10:31 |
| pawky_ | djszapiN950: well.. I believe you connect using ssh, and maybe https anyway... not? | 10:31 |
| rcg | djszapiN950: yeah, it's actually very interesting how attacks against wep improved over time | 10:31 |
| djszapiN950 | none of them | 10:31 |
| tabasko_ | pawky_: first tought about that too, but why it does it even when phonecall is coming in? Thats pretty annoying :) | 10:31 |
| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: yes, i love it... when needing a quick connection in the middle of nowhere... | 10:32 |
| djszapiN950 | i do not connect to the phone for hacking, jist using the mobile internet on my laptop | 10:32 |
| pawky_ | djszapiN950: then, would it be to much of a hazzle if someone else was peeking upon to where you surf? ;-) | 10:33 |
| macmaN | djszapiN95 is back, how about that | 10:33 |
| djszapiN950 | i am not wondering you are proud of illegal issues agaon... | 10:33 |
| djszapiN950 | pawky of course, especially in case roamong where 1 mb / 1 eur | 10:34 |
| djszapiN950 | and as I said, you can check the connected clients anyway, even on yhe ui. | 10:36 |
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| djszapiN950 | rcg thanks for the docs; I will read that :) | 10:39 |
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| pawky_ | djszapiN950: Well, lets not go there... one thing is theory, the other is reality. ;-) | 10:41 |
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| pawky_ | djszapiN950: I believe in the UK its now even a crime to connect to someone elses fully open Wireless... No clue how they will be able to enforce such law, regarding all the ce hot-spots... | 10:42 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: It's not. | 10:42 |
| djszapiN950 | sounds like you an ms representetive | 10:42 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: It's a crime to access a computer syustem without authorisation. | 10:42 |
| djszapiN950 | are* | 10:43 |
| SpeedEvil | This is not quite teh same thing | 10:43 |
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| pawky_ | SpeedEvil: and, connectiong to your neighbours wireless would be considered as? | 10:46 |
| pawky_ | (unencrypted that is) | 10:46 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends on their intent. | 10:46 |
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| pawky_ | i still remember a court case in the uk a few years back where the guy faced 8 years inprisonment | 10:47 |
| pawky_ | The guy had used his neighbours unencrypted wireless... | 10:47 |
| pawky_ | I believe he got 2 years in the end... | 10:47 |
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| djszapiN950 | link ? | 10:49 |
| marsje | politics and technology.......... *sigh* | 10:50 |
| djszapiN950 | is it usually around 7-8 days to get an application into into Ovi, or does it depend a lot on the special case ? | 10:53 |
| pawky_ | marsje: your right there... | 10:54 |
| SpeedEvil | pawky_: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/25/uk_war_driver_fined/ - I think you may have been referring to. | 10:54 |
| SpeedEvil | 12 months conditional discharge is not 2 years. The fine is a bit steep though. | 10:55 |
| jonni | djszapiN950: atleast it usually has taken 7 days to get my application updates into ovi, as it usually requires 2-3 different testers to test the binary. | 10:55 |
| jonni | fixing textonly descriptions without submitting new deb packagage usually has taken 1-2 days. | 11:00 |
| djszapiN950 | and not the updates, but the first submit ? | 11:01 |
| jonni | that took 7-8 days too if I remember right | 11:01 |
| djszapiN950 | thanks. Since it is relarively a long time for spending the time with in case of minor issues: is there a community "tips and trick before submittin to Ovi wikipage" ? | 11:05 |
| jonni | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Publishing.html | 11:07 |
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| pawky | ps aux|less | 11:22 |
| pawky | ops | 11:22 |
| pawky | SpeedEvil: Might be that guy... but 2 year probation could just as weel have been 2 year imprisonment... which leads to using neighbours wifi (unencrypted) could lead to imprisonment for years.. | 11:32 |
| jonni | In Finland its quite legal to use neighbours unprotected wifi. | 11:36 |
| djszapi | (same in Hungary) | 11:37 |
| pawky | jonni: well, like Sweden... and it must be. I really cannot see how the law could prohibit it, as most people have no way to distinguish who has what wifi, and what is a hot-spot and not... | 11:38 |
| pawky | Thats why I thought the story was so odd.... | 11:38 |
| pawky | and remembered it. | 11:38 |
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| pawky | I believe the whole WiFi stuff is a grey area when it comes to law... | 11:40 |
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| khertan | morning | 13:51 |
| khertan | i've got some stupid layout pb with qml in landscape mode | 13:51 |
| khertan | when i display http://khertan.net/downloads/example_qml_layout.png in landscape | 13:52 |
| khertan | i got something unusable as most part is hidden by the vkb | 13:52 |
| khertan | how can i do it ? | 13:52 |
| khertan | http://pastebin.com/TSwSGcjb <<< the current qml "code" | 13:53 |
| jonni | maybe just change layout anchors based on orientation | 14:04 |
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| khertan | jonni: good idea, but virtual keyboard on landscape use almost all screen | 14:08 |
| khertan | so this didn't change so much | 14:08 |
| khertan | how can i made my page scrolling ? | 14:08 |
| jonni | there is plenty of space with intelligent layout, altough if I remember right focused inputfield is autoscrolled anyways. | 14:16 |
| jonni | or make page flickable | 14:22 |
| khertan | hum ... flickable maybe it s the solution | 14:25 |
| khertan | thx | 14:25 |
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| rZr | hi | 14:29 |
| rZr | anyone here has shared repo configured on n950 ? | 14:29 |
| rZr | i want to test a game but my phone is not handy | 14:30 |
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| khertan | rzr : which shared repo ? | 14:40 |
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| rZr | khertan: mine http://rzr.online.fr/q/harmattan | 14:56 |
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| rZr | later | 15:02 |
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| admiral0_n9 | hello | 15:26 |
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| khertan | http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS#Set_up_QtCreator_to_produce_files <<< is it still working with recent version of Qt ? | 15:56 |
| khertan | produce only deb | 15:56 |
| khertan | no source package for me | 15:57 |
| khertan | Débute : "C:\QtSDK\Madde\wbin\mad.cmd" -t harmattan-platform-api dpkg-buildpackage -sa -S -uc -us -Imoc -Iobj -Ircc -Iui -I.svn -I*.deb -I*.changes -Iqtc_packaging -IMakefile -I*.pro.user -I<packagename> La syntaxe de la commande n'est pas correcte. Le processus "C:\QtSDK\Madde\wbin\mad.cmd" s'est terminé avec le code 1. | 15:57 |
| khertan | forcement | 15:57 |
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| khertan | grrr now qtcreator generate package with wrong version | 16:12 |
| khertan | grrr | 16:12 |
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| kevin_b | anyone built openMax for harmattan? | 17:35 |
| khertan | kevin_b: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=gst-openmax&project=home%3Aarfoll%3Axbmc-testing< ? | 17:37 |
| jonni | kevin_b: "gst-openmax is just a wrapper. The Nokia N9 doesn’t have OpenMAX IL libraries. In theory you could get TI’s OMAP3 OpenMAX IL and use them there, but it would be a waste in time. It’s much easier to just use GStreamer directly." | 17:38 |
| jonni | just a paste from google search :) | 17:39 |
| jonni | or quick answer would be: NO :) | 17:40 |
| kevin_b | wanna try vlc on N9, it uses openMax for such arm target | 17:41 |
| kevin_b | thanks for the answers Mr. Hackzors | 17:41 |
| jonni | kevin_b: here is VLC for N9 for you http://www.irunvlc.me/ | 17:42 |
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| kevin_b | yup, but useless without openmax = if not using dsp | 17:43 |
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| khertan | http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/apps.formeego.org | 17:50 |
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| * merlin1991 has his n9 back :) | 17:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer51 | \o/ | 17:59 |
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| hiemanshu | PR 1.2 out? | 18:33 |
| beford | no | 18:33 |
| hiemanshu | well its close to release atleast | 18:35 |
| RST38h | howdoyouknow? | 18:36 |
| hiemanshu | RST38h: http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Blogs/blog/n9-developer/2012/01/16/heads-up-for-harmattan-1.2-beta-developer-release | 18:37 |
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| khertan | but could be as close as the fremantle pr1.2 | 18:39 |
| khertan | : | 18:39 |
| khertan | :) | 18:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | somebodyt should already ask for the sourcecode DVD :-D | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | as it seems Nokia again isn't willing to share the code via internet | 19:04 |
| mgedmin | hasn't someone already done that? | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | qole asked and got the answer 'available on request' - as usual | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | not for 1.2 I guess | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | 1.2-1.2 | 19:06 |
| mgedmin | ah, but has anyone received 1.2? | 19:08 |
| mgedmin | (in binary form) | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | see URL of hiemanshu above | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | and why do you think I say 'already ask for source now'? | 19:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | anticipating they will process the inquiry not sooner than rolling out 1.2beta | 19:10 |
| mgedmin | iow, no | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | iow dunno | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | announcement been yesterday | 19:11 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | mmm, caffeine | 19:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, the question is, is it worth bothering them about the source before PR1.2 release comes out | 19:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if there's a gap of 2 weeks between the beta and the final version, and they take their time with the dvd mailing, what's the point | 19:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, they didn't actually release the PR1.2 beta yet, right? only announce that the N950 illuminati will receive it | 19:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer51 mgedmin ^ | 19:30 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | so i guess it hinges on whether they have to honor the request, if they haven't released 1.2 beta yet at the moment | 19:34 |
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| elena1986 | hello | 19:48 |
| elena1986 | are there any native speakers of English around here please? | 19:48 |
| nix-cyrus | hey guys. Phone didn't see gsm and 3g at all.. but it understand that sim is inserted. which daemon or system respond for that? | 19:49 |
| nix-cyrus | elena1986: да тут их больше всего) | 19:49 |
| elena1986 | I'm looking for an English to help me compose a few sentences | 19:50 |
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| mgedmin | nix-cyrus, tried rebooting? | 19:51 |
| nix-cyrus | mgedmin: offcourse..rebooting, switching on\off airplane mode.. | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | mhm | 19:52 |
| * mgedmin has no idea | 19:52 | |
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| Khertan_n950 | hello | 19:56 |
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| lbt | elena1986: to say.... | 20:01 |
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| elena1986 | "We have developed our own framework which includes a knowledgebase and toolbox that allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes reducing a lengthy porting process to a minimum." | 20:02 |
| elena1986 | lbt would you kindly check the above for grammar and overall neatness> | 20:03 |
| lbt | mainly OK but too long | 20:04 |
| elena1986 | would you please help me rephrase it somehow? | 20:04 |
| lbt | We have developed our own framework - including a knowledgebase and toolbox - that allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes. This reducing a lengthy porting process to a minimum | 20:05 |
| elena1986 | this * is reducing ? | 20:05 |
| lbt | "allows us" ... why would I care that "us" needs a knowledgebase or has a toolbox | 20:05 |
| RST38h | lbt: s/reducing/reduces | 20:05 |
| RST38h | or ", thus reducing" | 20:06 |
| lbt | yeah ... textbox is too small to scan :) | 20:06 |
| elena1986 | thanks ) | 20:06 |
| elena1986 | that's just brilliant lbt and RST38h | 20:07 |
| lbt | We have developed our own framework, knowledgebase and toolbox which allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes. This reduces a lengthy porting process to a minimum. | 20:07 |
| elena1986 | that's exactly what I was trying to say | 20:07 |
| lbt | np | 20:07 |
| elena1986 | how about this one: | 20:08 |
| elena1986 | The Framework also contains a Localization KIT which allows simultaneous multi-lingual release and provides the ability to localize the game into any language (including oriental languages) under tight deadlines. | 20:08 |
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| lbt | don't capitalise | 20:08 |
| elena1986 | *which allows simultaneous multi-lingual releases | 20:10 |
| elena1986 | or 'which enables us to release multi-lingually'? | 20:10 |
| * RST38h yawns | 20:10 | |
| lbt | sounds redundant too | 20:10 |
| lbt | the former | 20:10 |
| RST38h | The framework also contains a localization kit that lets you localize your software in any language (including oriental languages), quickly, and make a multi-language release. | 20:11 |
| RST38h | ok, make it "quickly localize" | 20:11 |
| RST38h | save on commas | 20:12 |
| lbt | remove localiization too ... dedupe | 20:12 |
| RST38h | yeah | 20:12 |
| elena1986 | Our framework also contains a loc kit that lets US quickly localize any game in any language and make a multi0language release. | 20:12 |
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| RST38h | In fact, remove the whole "also contains a localization kit that" | 20:12 |
| lbt | The framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental languages), quickly, and make a multi-language release | 20:13 |
| RST38h | nobody needs to know how this feature is called in your design docs | 20:13 |
| RST38h | lbt:wrong English at "and make" | 20:13 |
| elena1986 | this is not the framework's ad | 20:13 |
| lbt | yeah | 20:13 |
| elena1986 | it's all about developing games | 20:13 |
| elena1986 | I am trying to say that we use our own framework that lets us quickly localize our own games | 20:14 |
| lbt | The framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental languages) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:14 |
| lbt | The framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:14 |
| elena1986 | not *your software! | 20:15 |
| elena1986 | *our games | 20:15 |
| lbt | Our framework also supports localization of the software in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:15 |
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| lbt | Our framework also supports localization of the games in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:15 |
| elena1986 | 'supports *rapid localization of the games in any language | 20:16 |
| elena1986 | is this bettr? | 20:16 |
| RST38h | supports rabid localization! | 20:16 |
| RST38h | elena: forget "of the" | 20:16 |
| lbt | *g* | 20:16 |
| RST38h | elena: it is too Russian, or German | 20:16 |
| elena1986 | russian :P | 20:16 |
| RST38h | elena: forget games, just write software localization | 20:16 |
| elena1986 | but we develop games? | 20:17 |
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| RST38h | games are software | 20:17 |
| RST38h | if some chinese decides to develop a game selection menu or a media player with your framework, will it still be game? | 20:18 |
| elena1986 | Our framework also supports *software localization in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:18 |
| RST38h | more or less, yes | 20:18 |
| elena1986 | we don't give our framework to anyone | 20:18 |
| elena1986 | we use it ourselves | 20:18 |
| elena1986 | trying to say that 'hey, if you want us to release this game in Chinese, we will do' | 20:19 |
| elena1986 | because we have A KIT ! | 20:19 |
| RST38h | mhm, I think it is not a translation but a message problem | 20:19 |
| elena1986 | this is not a framework ad. just an emphasis on the possibility of quick localization of ANY GAME | 20:19 |
| RST38h | Nobody gives a damn about the framework you are using | 20:19 |
| elena1986 | yup | 20:20 |
| RST38h | If you are selling yourselves, advertise yourselves, not the framework | 20:20 |
| nix-cyrus | elena1986: could I make a request?) | 20:20 |
| elena1986 | they need localized games! | 20:20 |
| RST38h | Like this: | 20:20 |
| lbt | RST38h: well, it helps explain how they acheive results and describes a capability | 20:20 |
| nix-cyrus | elena1986: actually not a game.. but chinese web-browser - uc. need to translate it to eng+rus :) | 20:21 |
| elena1986 | precisely | 20:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: the customer does not care how they achieve results, believe me, I know ;) | 20:21 |
| lbt | :) | 20:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: and yes, every contractor uses SOME framework | 20:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: and they all let you localize nowadays | 20:21 |
| lbt | all true.... I was just doing grammar for a bit .... not a marketing analysis :) | 20:23 |
| lbt | not enough context for that | 20:23 |
| RST38h | elena: "We will quickly localize your game into multiple languages, including oriental Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, and make a compact multi-language release. | 20:23 |
| lbt | anyhoo.... food beckons..... o/ | 20:23 |
| RST38h | scratch "oriental", keep the rest | 20:23 |
| RST38h | BTW, if you are advertising your services, rather than framework, there are going to be different "features" customers look for | 20:24 |
| RST38h | like dedicated support people, including dedicated product manager, short development time, clearly defined development process | 20:25 |
| RST38h | as in "we will tell you what is going on at each stage of the process, on preagreed schedule" | 20:26 |
| elena1986 | ok, I'll make it: Our framework also supports localization of our games in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy. | 20:26 |
| RST38h | well, not exactly this wording but something like it | 20:26 |
| RST38h | yeah, this will do, if you are selling framework | 20:26 |
| elena1986 | no! | 20:26 |
| elena1986 | there's a short paragraph talking about the framework | 20:27 |
| elena1986 | what seems to be the trouble? | 20:27 |
| RST38h | nothing, it is ok, please, go on. | 20:27 |
| elena1986 | This approach enables us to produce competitive products and respond quickly to ever-changing market demands. | 20:27 |
| elena1986 | how about this? | 20:28 |
| elena1986 | to THE ever-changing? | 20:28 |
| elena1986 | The use of innovative technology in mobile gaming will often present challenges to gamers. All our games offer user-friendly interface, and if any problem arise the user may contact our Technical Support team to receive prompt and quality assistance. | 20:29 |
| elena1986 | is the above ok and grammatical? | 20:29 |
| elena1986 | "all our games offer user-friendly interface" | 20:30 |
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| elena1986 | anyone? | 20:35 |
| nix-cyrus | btw anyone have libgl.so and libglu.so for N9\N950? | 20:39 |
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| Venemo | hey guys | 20:46 |
| admiral0 | hi | 20:47 |
| nix-cyrus | Venemo: hey) trying today new version of chatter(that didn't need installing any deps).. and can't join rooms :( | 20:47 |
| Venemo | nix-cyrus, you need to enter a full name and an ident | 20:48 |
| Venemo | if you leave either one empty, freenode won't let you connect | 20:48 |
| nix-cyrus | Venemo: oh.. ok. I'll try tomorrow again. thnx | 20:49 |
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| Venemo | nix-cyrus, this already has a workaround in master, but we haven't made a new release yet. | 20:49 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | elena1986: still there? | 22:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | 'a user-friendly interface' or 'user-friendly interfaces' is more correct | 22:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the first one connotes that all the games have the same interface or something like that, which might not be what you want | 22:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | tbh the interface isn't the first thing one thinks about concerning a game | 22:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you'd be better off using the description to talk about the gameplay idea and how cool it is | 22:06 |
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| mwrf | Just got an N9 today! | 22:38 |
| admiral0 | mwrf: yay | 22:38 |
| mwrf | \o/ | 22:38 |
| mwrf | Love it | 22:38 |
| mwrf | have a problem though | 22:38 |
| mwrf | Enabling developer mode, I get "installation interupted" every time | 22:39 |
| nix-cyrus | mwrf: PR1.1? | 22:39 |
| mwrf | yep | 22:39 |
| mwrf | 20.2011.40-4_PR_001 | 22:40 |
| mwrf | I cant get to a terminal because developer mode won't enable. Chicken and Egg situation. Any suggestions? | 22:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Are there flashable firmware images available for N9s yet? | 22:42 |
| nix-cyrus | maybe try to use another terminal.. | 22:44 |
| admiral0 | hmm | 22:44 |
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| mgedmin | GeneralAntilles, official ones or unofficial ones? | 22:51 |
| mgedmin | I've never heard of the first kind | 22:51 |
| mgedmin | the other kind can reportedly be downloaded with navifirm, if you have a windows machine or Wine | 22:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, that's dumb. | 22:56 |
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| mgedmin | ineffingcredibly | 23:07 |
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| jonni | ah mwrf already left the channel, usually dev mode fails to install on new devices, because user has forgotten to set the right date first. (install fails on out of the box date) | 23:16 |
| admiral0 | yes, happened to me too | 23:17 |
| nix-cyrus | btw .. looking for termianl and can't find it.. | 23:19 |
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| nix-cyrus | there is a different.. nondefalut terminal application... that shows all keys under the main desktop | 23:20 |
| nix-cyrus | and when you start typing it going on the front.. stop typing going to the back.. something like that | 23:20 |
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| M4rtinK | thp: I have finally finished my guide to running PyGame on the Touchpad: http://modrana.org/trac/wiki/pygame_touchpad | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | I wrote a short script that adds Python & PyGame to path and launches that T^3 game | 23:28 |
| M4rtinK | and also did a bundle that contains Python, PyGame, my script and T^3 -> unpack & run :) | 23:29 |
| MohammadAG | someone reverse navifirm and write it in Qt | 23:34 |
| MohammadAG | it can't be that hard | 23:34 |
| * admiral0 and here comes MohammadAG | 23:35 | |
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| admiral0 | MohammadAG: it uses soap | 23:52 |
| admiral0 | i could create a quick perl script | 23:52 |
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