IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2012-01-17

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marsjeI have some path issues in N('s terminal00:11
marsjehow do I add /sbin to the path?00:11
djszapiexport PATH=/sbin:${PATH} or something similar00:13
djszapibut why would you do that ?00:13
marsjebecause I'm trying out sshuttle00:14
marsjethat needs iptables00:14
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marsjewhich it cannot find00:14
djszapihow often do you use it ?00:14
marsje1st now :)00:14
djszapijust /sbin/...00:14
marsjeand if it works, often00:14
djszapiwhy not ssh ?00:14
deramwhy not point it straight without using PATH to seek it?00:14
marsjeI mean, the tool sshuttle calls iptables00:14
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marsjeand I did not make sshuttle, so in theory I don't control where it looks for iptables00:15
djszapiwell, go figure out what the terminal use and google for profile and all that jazz :)00:16
djszapiif you wanna set it automatically.00:16
marsjeI see there is a .profile which sets the path, but it's for bash, and it seems I'm not running bash00:16
djszapiwhy run sshuttle manually from terminal often ?00:16
marsjeif you have a better idea I love to hear00:17
djszapiof course, it would not be a trouble for bash.00:17
djszapimarsje: write an app, or use ssh00:17
marsjesshuttle combines ssh and iptables into a simple vpn00:17
marsjeso ssh is not the same as sshuttle00:18
marsjeas far as I understand it00:18
djszapiI have never said00:18
marsjejust ssh does not do what I need00:18
djszapibut you could run sshuttle over ssh and it would be in the path by default.00:18
marsjeI need vpn-like functionality00:18
DocScrutinizer.profile is for all bourne shells AFAIK00:18
marsjeyou mean ssh to myself so I have a bash shell?00:19
djszapiI mean use ssh from your host PC.00:19
marsjeI am00:19
marsjeI ssh to my phone00:19
marsjeto setup sshuttle00:19
DocScrutinizerbussybox even sources .bashrc00:19
djszapiso the path should work from ssh00:20
marsjethen I do devel-su00:20
djszapibtw ls -lda /bin/sh shows busyox00:20
marsjewhat does that do?00:20
djszapibusybox for sure00:20
DocScrutinizeryes, thanks to .profile iirc00:20
mgedminwell, if .profile sources .bashrc, then sure00:20
djszapiso you need to figure out the profiling in busybox, if you wanna ignore ssh00:20
mgedminbut it's not busybox then00:20
DocScrutinizernah, not exactly00:20
DocScrutinizerjust the .profile that comes with busybox00:21
mgedminbut not the one  on the n900:21
marsjethe .profile sources .bashrc in case the shell is bash00:21
marsjewhich is not the case it seems00:21
DocScrutinizerooh? I had to code this test by hand myself00:21
DocScrutinizernot on N9 though00:22
DocScrutinizeron N900 I think00:22
djszapiso this is what you basically need: "~/.profile".00:22
DocScrutinizererr, N950:00:22
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DocScrutinizer# ~/.profile: executed by Bourne-compatible login shells.00:23
DocScrutinizerif [ -f ~/.bashrc ]; then00:23
DocScrutinizer  . ~/.bashrc00:23
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djszapior just install bash :D00:23
DocScrutinizer""interesting"" indeed00:24
marsjeI copy/pasted the PATH thing from the .profile and executed it and that seems to work, for this session00:24
marsjeunix shells confuse the hell out of me00:24
djszapithat is what I said you above00:24
djszapibut it does not mean it is automated.00:24
marsjeI might script it00:25
djszapiput what I said above into this file: /home/user/.profile00:25
marsjeyou mean in that link?00:25
djszapino, this one: export PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:$PATH00:26
marsjeah ok00:26
marsjeyes, I'll do that00:26
AvengenceSpeedEvil: when wp7 first came out, m$ tried just that. they contacted top iphoen app developers and offrered cash up front to port to wp7. most said no00:26
SpeedEvilI missed that.00:27
djszapiyes, it is pretty normal in this industry.00:28
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marsjeoh no.. :(00:30
marsjeI get: iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `nat': Permission denied (you must be root)00:30
djszapitry behing develsh00:30
marsjeI did it as root00:30
marsjewell, "root"00:30
djszapitry behind develsh00:30
marsjehow do I do that?00:31
marsjeI only know devel-su, so far00:31
djszapitype this: devel-sh00:31
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djszapior develsh00:31
TSCHAKseriously, it's just mind boggling how hard microsoft is trying to push wp7, even when the marketplace is just saying,
djszapiit is actually saying yes. Pretty good reviews so far.00:32
marsjedjszapi: develsh is right... who am I now?00:32
djszapitype: whoami -> developer00:32
admiral0TSCHAK: lol00:33
djszapisorry, user00:33
djszapior root that you will get00:33
djszapibut it all does not matter00:33
TSCHAKit's a jedi mind trick that isn't really working.00:33
djszapiVenemo said the opposite.00:33
marsjewhoami -> user00:34
djszapidoes not really matter00:34
djszapijust run your vpn stuff00:34
Venemohey djszapi :)00:35
Venemowhat's up?00:35
djszapiVenemo: people swearing about WP7 this time :)00:35
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djszapiyou could probably tell more with more experience than me.00:36
VenemoI haven't yet tried to push my app into marketplace00:36
Venemoso no experience there.00:36
djszapithey have not mentioned windows marketplace yet00:36
djszapijust the platform itself afaiu00:36
VenemoI will not argue with anyone's personal taste.00:37
itsnotabigtruckthe problem with porting from iphone to wp7 is that they have nothing at all in common00:37
itsnotabigtruckbut i guess that hasn't stopped people from porting from iphone to android00:37
djszapinor android, and all the other players.00:38
djszapiangry birds*00:38
admiral0itsnotabigtruck: problem is no native APIs00:38
itsnotabigtrucki'm surprised there's been so little iphone -> n9 porting, even despite the n9 being a niche phone00:38
djszapiadmiral0: there will be soon though00:38
admiral0iphone -> android -> C++ apps00:39
djszapiand it has already been available internally inside companies like ours for a year or so00:39
itsnotabigtrucksince you could have the backend in c/c++, the iphone frontend in obj-c/cocoa, and the n9 frontend in c++/qt00:39
marsjedjszapi: guess sshuttle is not compatible with the weird way meego works on the N9. I get (as user): [local su] su: must be suid to work properly00:40
djszapimarsje: use devel-su00:40
djszapiand then develsh00:40
itsnotabigtruckyeah, try devel-su -c 'blahblah'00:41
itsnotabigtruckand enter rootme as the password00:41
marsjealready changed the pw00:41
djszapimarsje: so ideally, it is better to use develsh, and apparently in certain cases even root.00:41
itsnotabigtruckit would be nice having aptitude on this thing :(00:41
marsjedjszapi: I get a slightly different error now, but I think there is some progress: iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `nat': Table does not exist (do you need to insmod?)00:43
djszapiinsmod will not work without security hole. Well, I have no clue then :)00:43
djszapioh yes, nat is forgetable on Harmattan00:44
* ieatlint loves that exciting moment when the security guard at the datacenter realizes he gave you the wrong badge that gives you access to things you shouldn't00:44
marsjedjszapi: you have nat then?00:44
djszapimarsje: I could, but I also have RDC :P00:45
marsjeR&D mode?00:45
marsjeor what is RDC?00:45
djszapilong story short, you cannot inject stuff into kernel space.00:45
djszapi(unless you use the openmode kernel obviously)00:46
marsjegeez, this N9 is neutered like crazy00:46
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djszapi(or some userspace security vulnerability)00:46
marsjeall the things that II bought the N( for I can't do00:46
djszapiyou wanna buy N90000:46
djszapior use openmode stuff00:47
marsjeI thought when I turn on "developer mode" in the settings, I would be in open mode00:47
marsjebut it's all just fake00:47
marsjedoes anyone have openvpn running without open mode?00:48
djszapino, that would be super simple to abuse then00:48
marsjeabused by whom?00:48
djszapiby anybody setting that setting from code for instance00:48
marsjemy debian server can switch to root by just typingthe password00:49
mgedminwell, you could have an aegis token that only lets the official settings app switch to open mode, in theory00:49
marsjethe thing hangs on the internet 24/7 with a fixed ip address00:49
marsjeis this insecure?00:49
djszapiyes, was also hacked because such a poor security stuff. Missed it ?00:49
marsjebut it would be my responsibility00:49
mgedminotoh the vol+ camera hack shows that apps can use XTest to drive other apps in a way that's not distinguishable from the user00:50
djszapisince the ui testing is not protected by the platform, such Ui stuff are vulnerability anyway00:51
djszapimarsje: was on the internet 24/7/365, and still got hacked.00:52
marsjeyes, I know00:52
marsjeeverything can get hacked00:52
marsjenokia could have decided not to put a battery in the n9 or no internet connection00:52
marsjethat would make ist very secure00:52
marsjebut not very useful00:52
itsnotabigtruckmarsje: the phrase "open mode" gets thrown around a lot but it means loading a custom kernel, specifically one that doesn't have aegis enforcement00:52
marsjeso it's always a trade off00:53
djszapino internet connection would not be enough.00:53
itsnotabigtruckapparently it works perfectly, as long as you wipe and reload everything at the same time00:53
marsjebut since I gave nokia 500 euros I would like to have a say in this trade off00:53
itsnotabigtruckthat allows you to "root" your n900:53
marsjeyou mean install en open mode kernel?00:53
djszapimarsje: why did you pay for something you do not like ?00:53
itsnotabigtruckthat's in contrast with "secure mode" (normal) and "developer mode" (what you get in the options)00:53
djszapismarter people sent back the device after they did not like it.00:54
djszapimarsje: whereas, with custom kernel, you will lose the warranty for your 500 EUR phone.00:54
marsjenot sure how easy that is00:54
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: because they like everything else, just not the perverted security regime? you seem to be the only one around here who defends it00:54
djszapiwell, you normally have 24 hour or so to send back, if you do not like it.00:54
itsnotabigtruckand has been since inception00:55
marsjewell, these things you only found out later00:55
marsjeit's not on the website00:55
marsjeit's not in the manual00:55
marsjeit's not something you find out in 24 hours00:55
mgedminisn't it like 14 days in the EU to return a purchase for any reason?  (with lots of exceptions)00:55
djszapimarsje: it /is/ in the documentation.00:55
marsjeanyway, I have it more than 2 weeks00:55
marsjeand I think the webshop will say: fuck you00:56
admiral0djszapi: the loss of warranty is also for hardware?00:56
djszapiadmiral0: yes, it is only for that00:56
mgedminI'm sure lots of people would be happy to buy a discounted N9 and happily use it without even knowing what Aegis is ;)00:56
itsnotabigtruckthe question is, does loading a hacked kernel flip a bit in the bootloader that can't be flipped back00:56
marsjemgedmin: I doubt it actually00:56
djszapimarsje: Platform Security documentation. Probably first result on google still.00:57
itsnotabigtruckor can one, in the event that a mostly-functioning unit has problems, flash it back and send it back00:57
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: yes, of course.00:57
djszapiI mean it is trackable.00:57
djszapibut it sounds weird you are thinking of cheating.00:58
djszapimarsje: learning cost for you to evaluate such expenses devices a bit more next time :/00:58
djszapiafter one year, you can flash an own kernel since the warranty expires.00:59
djszapi1 or so.00:59
marsjedjszapi: I did some googling and reading on forums before I decided to buy00:59
marsjedjszapi: but it is not as easy as you make it seem00:59
marsjethere are a dozen of websites, official and non-official00:59
marsjemailinglists, irc00:59
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: do you know, or are you just assuming01:00
djszapimarsje: I was speaking about official documentation, not small-talkers on X forums :)01:00
marsjewith contradictory or incomplete or invalid or outdated information01:00
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: actually, I cannot talk about such details covered by NDA01:00
marsjedjszapi: I'm looking, and I'm sure you are right, but it's not obvious01:00
marsjeall docs are aimed at app developers01:01
marsjenot as power users01:01
djszapimarsje: you have not checked out the Platform Security documentation then.01:01
djszapimarsje: when did you buy the device ?01:02
marsjea month ago01:02
djszapitry to get rid of the device then on some IT sales site or so.01:03
djszapiyou can mention there is still 11 months guarantee, for instance.01:03
marsjeit does not solve my problem in wanted a device that does what I want01:03
admiral0djszapi: 2 years in EU01:04
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itsnotabigtrucki thought this channel was supposed to be about getting the most out of your phone, not blindly defending harebrained security schemes01:04
djszapimarsje: but as far as I see, you have two problems now at least.01:04
marsjeand I feel both hardware and software of the N9 is capable, in theory, to do all I want01:04
marsjeit has just some limitations01:04
Avengencelol at the warranty void screenshot. nokia hasn't paid very good attention to laws and precedent set by courts. loading alternate software doesn't void the warranty in sensible jurisdictions. they still have to honor it if somthing breaks not due to software (say, exploding lithium battery)01:05
djszapithey will, if you can prove it.01:05
marsjeI just want warranty on the hardware01:06
djszapimarsje: forget openvpn for guarantee - 1 month then.01:06
Avengencesoftware always disclaims all warranties anyway somewhere in the eula, betwen where they say it does nothing they claim and they can take it away any time they want for any reason01:07
marsjeyou mean I cannot get a vpn to work without voiding the warrantee?01:07
djszapinot really, at least not nicely.01:08
Avengencesoftware might actually be usable and not hated by 99.99% of the world if it had to actually work01:08
djszapilook at the reviews, it is actually pretty amazing according to the users.01:08
marsjethis makes me tired01:08
marsjeat 1st look the n9 is fantastic01:08
djszapiplease do not think some complaining people is any measurable to most of the users.01:08
marsjebut I have problems with teh functionality01:09
marsjeand I'm not talking about the geek things I try to do01:09
djszapiyou had to use custom kernel on N900 as well anyway01:09
marsjebut for example connecting to google mail/talk01:09
djszapiso it is not any distinct... /me is not understanding the problem.01:09
djszapiyou can connect to google mail and talk, of course.01:10
marsjesometimes you can01:10
marsjesometimes you can't01:10
djszapiworks for me..01:10
marsjeit says: incorrect password01:10
djszapihave you reported a bug with steps to reproduce ?01:11
marsjewell, if it was easy to reproduce, I guess it would already be solved01:11
marsjeit has worked then it stopped working01:11
marsjenot sure why01:11
marsjemaybe it forgot the passwords...01:11
marsjethe facebook account also says "incorrect password" ,but the notification screen shows facebook items01:12
djszapino, easy to reproduce does not automatically mean, it is already solved.01:12
marsjeI know01:13
djszapibut that is really the first entry point you need to put the effort in before trying to get any help with.01:13
marsjebut the other way around is usually true01:13
marsjehard to reproduce, does not get solved01:13
SpeedEvilIt depends. In some cases, a good report can lead to hard-to-reproduce bugs being fixable.01:14
SpeedEvilDepends on the result, and the code.01:14
marsjewell, if I have an issue that is easy to reproduce, I will ask for help here or report the bug01:14
itsnotabigtruckbug reports to corporations by outsiders never accomplished anything anyway01:14
marsjebut where do you go when you don't know how to reproduce?01:14
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itsnotabigtruckeven with incredibly specific repro steps and things like that01:15
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: you ignoring reading the fixed bugs on the tracker ?01:15
djszapi(not just Nokia, in general)01:15
marsjethere are always too many bugs anyway01:15
djszapimarsje: write to technical help desk, or just file a bug, and they will tell you what to provide for them ?01:15
djszapiplease be more intuitive for your bug getting fixed. If you do not even report it, how do you expect any help with ?01:16
djszapibut general guideline: console output, syslog, etc.01:16
marsjeI don't... I just pray someone within nokia has already figured it out01:16
marsjeor maybe I will figure it out myself01:17
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marsjeyeah, I have looked01:17
marsjelgging on the n9 is bad01:17
marsjevery few log messages and if I get any, I have no idea what it means01:17
marsjechecking the log is the 1st thing that I do..01:17
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marsjehow do I change the password of a facebook account?01:18
marsjeon the n9 I mean of course01:18
marsjedelete I guess...01:18
mgedminit asks when it can't connect using the old one01:19
mgedmin(even when the old one is still correct)01:19
marsjeyes, this is what I get01:19
mgedminand if you dismiss the facebook auth dialog a few times, it deletes the facebook account for you01:19
mgedmin(even if the old password was correct and you did not want to bloody keep re-adding the facebook account every bloody week)01:19
marsjeah, so I;m not the only one...01:20
marsjeI have this for both gmail and facebook01:22
marsjefor gmail I have 2 factor authentication, so each time the n9 forgets the password I have to go to google account settings to request a new 16 digit random password and re-enter it01:22
djszapimarsje: for me night, but feel free to poke me with security issues in the future.01:23
mgedminI've a similar problem with gtalk, but it never deletes my account at least01:23
mgedminand succeeds when I retry01:23
itsnotabigtruckhmm, i just dpkg -x'd a package, now i have a folder that won't go away01:25
itsnotabigtruckowned by root:root and devel-su -c 'rm -rf /home/developer/tmp' doesn't do anything01:25
marsjedjszapi: thanks!01:26
marsjemgedmin: I just deleted my fb and google accounts and re-added and now they are operational again01:26
admiral0djszapi: i've found a security issue01:26
marsjebut it seems when I'm not connected to the internet, it tries to connect, I cancel and that makes the n9 very angry01:27
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admiral0djszapi: nokia is using "security through obscurity" for the UI01:27
djszapiadmiral0: huh ?01:28
admiral0djszapi: on meegotouchhome-nokia01:29
djszapiI am tired for this, sorry :)01:29
marsjeme too01:30
djszapiobscurity mostly means according to my half a year experience here, people are just newbie (respect to the exceptions).01:30
admiral0djszapi: come on, mine was a joke01:30
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djszapiand mine was a fact :)01:31
admiral0expect sotiris laughing tommorrow morning when reading mail01:32 doesn't exist anymore, does it01:36
djszapiwhy wouldn't it except a temporary down time ?01:38
itsnotabigtruckbecause it looks pretty inoperative right now, and i haven't seen many references to it lately?01:38
djszapiI do not think it is over. It is actually right the opposite, they got the community policies after a long fight, the client is evolving...01:40
djszapiso I think you are just either misinformed or misspeculated :)01:40
itsnotabigtruckalso, you could have said earlier that 'aegis-community-source-policy grants extra permissions to things from' instead of being a prick about it01:40
itsnotabigtruckthe description says approximately nothing01:41
djszapihuh ?01:41
itsnotabigtruckthat's what it does, it installs an aegis manifest with a long list of permissions for source apps.formeego.org01:41
djszapiit is not just for, it is - as its name says - a community policy, not really just strictly tied to apps4meego.01:42
itsnotabigtruckwell, someone has to own the key, no?01:42
djszapiNokia does.01:42
djszapisince it comes from Nokia proper anyway.01:43
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djszapiand as said, anybody can be identified against that after all. It would really be nasty to get it tight to only one community project.01:43
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itsnotabigtruckanybody nokia delegates the key to01:50
itsnotabigtruckand that means it does nothing up to very little to relax aegis for hacker users01:51
djszapiNokia delegates the key to the community...01:51
itsnotabigtruckall it does is offer a subset of ovi permissions to "community" sites01:51
itsnotabigtruckwell, everyone's part of the community, is nokia going to give me the private key? hell nah, and i wouldn't expect them to01:51
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djszapinot really, no. You do not still understand the point behind.01:51
djszapiIt is by far not "a subset"01:52
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itsnotabigtruckbut what i do expect them to do is not to try and withhold the keys to the user's own castle01:52
Avengenceif its not a subset, where teh fuck is my key!?01:52
itsnotabigtrucki don't disagree with the aegis concept, but i do disagree with the idea of keeping me out of parts of my own equipment01:52
itsnotabigtrucknormally with a mac system, the owner has the final say01:52
itsnotabigtruckthis isn't that01:53
djszapicommunity is community, exactly what it says01:53
* Avengence is roughly planning a project to replace N9 OS with something that actually has real security AND lets the user control it01:53
djszapino guarantee, but since it is a dead end stuff anyway, they give out to almost anybody anyway01:53
djszapibut surely, you know better than people working in Harmattan :)01:53
itsnotabigtruckyou can play word games all day but the fact of the matter is that with aegis, nokia has the final say, not the user01:54
* djszapi is roughly planning to add one person to ignore list01:54
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: that is exactly the damn point, if you have not realized.01:54
djszapihave been saying it for ages.01:55
djszapithe user of the security framework controls everything.01:56
djszapiI think it would not bother to actually begin reading the documentation, as in RTFM01:56
Avengencedjszapi: whoop dee doo, you're nothing but a worthless tool01:57
itsnotabigtruck note "Goals of Harmattan security framework" bullet points 2, 3, 401:57
itsnotabigtruck"applications should not be able to change the device parameters in a way that the device would violate regulations"01:58
itsnotabigtruck"A malicious user or malicious application should not be able to disable such a lock. Additionally, some Harmattan device distribution channels may require installation or blocking of certain applications or services without a possibility for users or applications to change these settings."01:58
djszapiwhat don't you understand from there ? Sounds very clear.01:58
itsnotabigtruckthe idea is that some things users might want to do aren't good for business01:58
itsnotabigtruckaegis is designed to impede such things01:59
djszapiexactly, that is why Nokia has not cared about 10-20 developers here that much01:59
Avengencesome nice finglish on that page01:59
djszapithanks for confirming :)02:00
DocScrutinizersometimes convo with /ignore actually is funny too02:00
itsnotabigtruckwell, that would seem to go against the idea of "normally with a mac system, the owner has the final say" (where 'owner' is the person who bought the phone)02:00
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* djszapi has better things to do, so afk.02:01
AvengenceDocScrutinizer: ignore just fuels the lols and trolls, so i love it but don't use it02:01
itsnotabigtruckanyway, to be fair, i can understand why nokia put aegis in, but at the same time, i also don't have to likeit02:01
itsnotabigtruckbecause it simply isn't in the interest of the end user, much of the time02:01
DocScrutinizerAvengence: I had no choice. Or rather, my choice was between /ignore and acting in a way that would bring me BIG trouble02:02
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: your quote is way better stiull02:02
DocScrutinizeraegis is designed to "fsck user"02:03
Avengencetbh, if aegis was in any user documentation or really anywhere not buried, i wouldn't have bought the phone. I mean, if I wanted to overpay for a phone that I have no control of, I'd buy another iphone (and have less bugs, more apps, etc)02:03
itsnotabigtruckAvengence: well, on the flip side of the coin, i just spent a long time whining about aegis, but the N9 with the official dev mode on is way more open than almost any other phone without hacks02:04
itsnotabigtruckand it seems that aegis can be completely neutralized if you hate it that much02:04
Avengenceknowing now how shoddy most of the default apps are, how poor the security is for protecting user data, how braindamaged some of the basic infrastructucture is, how user-hostile and useless aegis is...02:04
M4rtinKwell, there is still Nemo - but using it means dumping the otherwise functioning Harmattan completely02:04
AvengenceI can't help but to at least take a shot at rolliing a non-suck OS02:04
Avengenceopen kernel, sane filesystem layout, actually encryption of all user data, maybe open bootloader02:05
DocScrutinizerAvengence: (rather buy fruit) YEP!02:05
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Avengenceitsnotabigtruck: i jailbroke my iphones for years and I had more with that than teh dev mode in N9. i have to go open kernel it seems to get that, and then its the same pain as jailbreak: double flashing updates and statring fresh (or nearly so) each time, thus wasting hours to get it back to similar state02:07
itsnotabigtruckAvengence: but it ships with an open bootloader (modulo the obnoxious bootup warning), allowing you then to install an open kernel02:07
itsnotabigtruckopen bootloader as in not locked, not as in open source02:07
djszapithe bootloader is locked02:08
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: well, you can completely neuter / replace HARM en toto. But then, I'd expect a device like N9 to come with core apps (diealer, calendar, contacts...) that WORK _without_ assraping me with my ideas to tweak my maemo/meego phone that'S allegedly *linux*02:08
itsnotabigtruckalso wiping the phone doesn't seem that bad, maybe because i'm used to my old nokia phone that wiped it even as part of normal firmware updates02:08
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djszapiyou cannot replace the bootloader so the current bootloader might boot linux kernels, but probably BSD kernels are grey area and so on.02:08
Avengencethe legally-laughable warning is enough for me to call the bootloader uinsufficiently open and desire to replace it with one that will load anything and the only noticeable difference is non-official kernel loading shows a nokia logo getting shattered/smashed/wahtever02:08
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djszapithe bootloader is completely locked.02:08
Avengenceand yes, bsd kernel is already on my mind02:08
DocScrutinizerHARM is *not* linux, when it comes to developing and maintenance02:08
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: to be exact, i mean that the bootloader allows booting third party modified firmware02:09
Avengenceunless all teh flash blocks are wite locked, the bootloader is not locked02:09
itsnotabigtrucknot that one can replace the bootloader02:09
itsnotabigtruckwhen people talk about 'open bootloaders' on android phones, they mean what i just described02:09
djszapiyes, be precise please. And nope, it does not allow BSD kernels probably.02:09
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djszapithey are quite confused then02:09
itsnotabigtruckwhy is that? the bootloader is 'open' in that it doesn't enforce 'closed' (signed official) firmware02:10
itsnotabigtrucka real closed bootloader is what you have on the iphone, most android phones, the zune hd, and so on02:11
djszapibut as I have just said, it is not open02:11
Avengenceto me, open means it does waht i say without enforcing someone else's agenda02:11
djszapiit does not allow many type of kernels..02:11
djszapiand there are probably many grey areas as well in that sense.02:11
itsnotabigtruckwell, trying to boot anything not linux on the n9 is probably a lost cause...using linux, given that everything has working drivers already, just makes sense02:11
Avengencei'm going to guess they didn't use anything convienet like uboot or redboot, but rolled their own02:12
Avengencemight be a lost cause, might not. doesn't hurt to try. there's plenty of spare flash space (most of it is unused swap patrition). bonus if the bootloader can boot something loaded in ram02:13
DocScrutinizerAvengence: you bet they did02:13
djszapiI would never say, using debian in chroot makes any sense, but some person does it here.02:13
djszapiso it is a weak argument02:13
djszapiopen is open, when it is completely open imo.02:14
djszapipartially open, partially close are not open to me.02:14
DocScrutinizercalled NOLO02:14
Avengencerunning through the thing in ida will probably be interesting02:14
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DocScrutinizerbut the BL isn't the problem - core apps refusing to work decently in open mode are02:15
Avengencecore apps just need a little shim02:16
Avengencefor those that are worth using02:16
Avengencethat's maps/drove and what else?02:16
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: wasn't that before it arose that if you wiped the phone (and thus aegis protected storage) when you flash the open kernel, it all works?02:16
itsnotabigtruckthe issue, apparently, being that aegis protected storage was unreadable having been initialized with the wrong keys02:17
DocScrutinizerwe had a rather lengthy session with first user trying it. Seems ther are still several dark corners where things break, like SSL certs02:17
itsnotabigtruckoh. :( well that tempers my enthusiasm a bit02:18
Avengencei wouldn't be surprised if some dumb apps make some calls to aegis and die for no good reason if they don't get a response, so at worst just need something to pretend to be aegis for them02:18
itsnotabigtruckbut at least there's progress being made02:18
DocScrutinizerand of course migrating accounts isn't possible as well02:18
itsnotabigtruckbut one could simply readd the accounts, right02:19
Avengencein reality, the aegis security is crap. it protects some things that don't need protecting and others it leaves wide open. it's clear trhe people who made it don't know jack shit about real security and risk mitigation02:19
djszapinot right02:19
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: seems yes02:19
DocScrutinizerAvengence: ++02:19
DocScrutinizerAvengence: maybe they know a bit about protecting system from user, though obviously not even that. While we actually got NOTHING worthy to protect on HARM, after all02:21
DocScrutinizerI mean, in sense of02:21
itsnotabigtruckbtw for convenience here's the aegis manifest from the community security policy
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: no need, anybody can make a grep in the restok.conf02:22
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DocScrutinizerthere IS NO >>third party software that requires a safe execution environment<<02:22
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DocScrutinizerand Nokia deliberately and openly states there wasn't any plan to get any, nor will there be any in the future02:23
DocScrutinizeryet that's the ONLY purpose of whole aegis02:23
djszapiand it is the same as ovi after all...02:24
DocScrutinizerso  we got a security framework that's protecting a void-by-definition02:24
DocScrutinizerwhile all "we care about protecting user privacy" is mere fairy tale02:25
DocScrutinizereven more is "we protect use from rogue malware"02:26
Avengencenot like aegis even provides a secure execution environment02:27
DocScrutinizeras OVI QA has NFC about difference between a legit fundraiser SMS app and a malware "pretend I'm fundraiser but really I send 500 SMS to "0900-fuck-is-fun"02:27
Avengencethere's some facilities to stash away data that should be secured from other apps but its implemented in a way such that the user can never get said data back, so its not even decent as a keychain/wallet02:28
itsnotabigtruckit looks like community/ovi/developer-unknown are identical02:28
Avengenceovi qa is a joke. one of the first apps i tried was a free minesweeper that is comically bad. it crashes if you win, but that's only if it actually counts the win properly02:29
DocScrutinizerAvengence: ++02:29
djszapino, it does not02:30
djszapithere is no "developer" policy, firstly.02:30
Avengencenot to dick wave, but I know a thing or two about actual security vs security theater. I put work into and and even those aren't secure enough for their purpose of use02:30
djszapisecondly, unknown has way less capability.02:30
DocScrutinizerfor all those platsec Nokia dudes out there (prolly useless as the one got me on his ignorelist as well): you did an awesome job, aegis is doing what's been specified by Nokia product damagers / designers02:31
DocScrutinizerit's not your fault that they have no clue about security02:31
DocScrutinizernot even about their product strategy and policy obviously02:32
Avengencethe former some may have heard of
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: i didn't say unknown, i said developer-unknown02:32
DocScrutinizeralas ow it's your aegis that makes every user shout "W*T*F?!"02:32
itsnotabigtruckwhy don't you do some grepping through restok.conf yourself02:32
djszapithirdly, there is no "developer-unknown".02:32
itsnotabigtruck i put all the aegis-*-source-policy stuff in that gist02:33
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SpeedEvilAnd unfortunately, aegis gets blamed for a lot which is not its fault.02:33
djszapireally good night :)02:34
DocScrutinizerI can't help though but have to mention that you (platsec) obviously trusted too much in what's been promised for benefits of the whole security architecture. If you had bothered to think abouts it for a few minutes by yourself, you might have been able to notice the holes in the argumentation web02:35
SpeedEvilIt depends.02:36
SpeedEvilIf content providers like netflix mandate stuff, and that is what it seems likely users will want, then you have little option but to implement stuff.02:37
Avengenceor tell netflix to fuckoff02:37
SpeedEvilAt the point that maemo was expected to go into the 'next billion' phones - it made sense.02:37
DocScrutinizeror ask "where's this friggin netflix NOW??"02:37
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Avengencewhere's my skype video?02:38
SpeedEvilAnd yes. But it's hard to get people to rip out chunks of infrastructure.02:38
Avengencewhy can't i delete facebook and twitter?02:38
itsnotabigtruckAvengence: you can suppress facebook and twitter's icons02:38
M4rtinKwhere is my USB hostmode ? :D02:38
DocScrutinizerM4rtinK: HAHA02:38
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck: i rather a big fat delete just to be sure02:39
DocScrutinizerM4rtinK: might ship with nemo02:39
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Avengenceas it is, my home dns won't resolve any facebook domains, but being a phone it frequently could access them through other networks02:39
DocScrutinizerhw is brilliant, it's easy like eating cake02:39
itsnotabigtruckthere has to be some way we can get an aegis-god-mode-source-policy installed :)02:39
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DocScrutinizerM4rtinK: alas kernel is so :-X I don't even bother anymore to ponder alternatives to get H-E-N to N902:40
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DocScrutinizerwho would install a kernel that pops up a "you're doomed and your warranty just fucking with your poolboy" warning, just to get hostmode?02:41
M4rtinKif there was a big enough "next" button02:42
DocScrutinizeryeah, the other annoyance02:42
DocScrutinizer"you can use this car with bio-gas. Ypu just have to preheat the engine with a hairdryer for 30 min prior to starting it"02:43
DocScrutinizer"and of course you lose your waranty"02:44
* SpeedEvil was preheating an engine for 30 mins yesterday.02:44
SpeedEvilIt was a generator that hadn't started for 4 years. Really surprised it went first pull. Honda++02:45
AvengenceDocScrutinizer: that's part of why i'd replace/patch the bootloader as part of the installation process02:48
DocScrutinizercommunity RE'd NOLO is tough02:49
DocScrutinizerps: we *might* consider using uBoot instead of NOLO, and use NOLO only temporary for flashing purposes02:51
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AvengenceNOLO = NoLoader?02:53
befr0dnokia loader02:53
DocScrutinizeranyway in my book HARM is too much "dongled" to NOLO and secure mode and aegis. So yes, N9 is easy to root and run some anti-vendor-port on it (until it comes to cellmo and other closed stuff), but you won't do this under/with HARM02:53
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Avengenceif we had a uboot port, there's be no reason not to use that for flashing as well. after all, since its not nokia firmware being flashed there's no reason to need their flash tool02:53
Avengencei see the whole harmattan pile as just userland stuff on top of linux02:54
DocScrutinizern8 again02:54
Avengencewe don't need their linux (beyond their drivres and such), just need the user environment to have the apps02:55
itsnotabigtruckwhy not keep the userland03:07
itsnotabigtruckswitching out the entire os seems like an impossible task, which is why things like nemo will probably be forever missing core functionality03:07
itsnotabigtrucklike making phone calls03:07
itsnotabigtruckreally, it's just about having control over what's already there03:07
Avengenceexactly, keep the useland mostly intact. replace kernel, relayout the filesystems (vfat, no thanks. encrypt the whole home), drop aegis, etc03:08
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itsnotabigtruckit would be nice to mod user programs to the bone, which is kinda impeded by most of them being closed source03:10
Avengenceyes, would be nice if they were open so we could fix the bugs03:12
Avengenceat least by taking over the base it's possible to do things like setup monitoring and automatic recover for those known to hang/die03:12
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zx2c4so it looks like harmattan doesnt use wpa_supplicant?04:47
Sazpaimon_it does not04:49
Sazpaimon_but you can install the package from debian04:49
Sazpaimon_i hear it works fine04:49
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zx2c4does it integrate with teh connection manager?04:55
zx2c4Sazpaimon_: can it coexisit, i mean?04:56
Sazpaimon_dont think so04:56
zx2c4or is it required to turn things off manually andkill processes04:56
Sazpaimon_honestly have no idea, I haven't used it myself04:56
zx2c4the issue is EAP-SIM04:58
zx2c4Free Mobile in france just opened04:58
zx2c4offering free wifi that blankets paris04:58
zx2c4authenticated on smartphones via EAP-SIM04:59
zx2c4which of course04:59
zx2c4ddidnt mean to press plus key04:59
zx2c4which of course is unsupported by harmattan04:59
zx2c4and nokia says they're underresourced to implement it04:59
zx2c4but i figured i'd hack it into wpa_supplicant04:59
zx2c4but that looks tiresome if it's not  going to play nicely with whatever EAP mechanism they already have in place -- eapd.real or w/e04:59
zx2c4do you know what eapd is?05:00
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itsnotabigtruckzx2c4: hmm05:42
itsnotabigtruckis it open source?05:42
itsnotabigtrucki think i have the gpl dvd iso image somewhere around here05:43
itsnotabigtruckw00t gotta love tlas05:43
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pawky_jonni: you who often know it all. Yesterday when wanting to test if my provider did some funny stuff with the 3g connection I stumbled upon some remarkable behaviour regarding the N9. Putting the phone into hot-spot mode choosing 128 bit encryption, the phone would enter ad-hoc mode letting anybody connect to it with no encryption what so ever. Whilst my tests for the provider went well 3.5mbit/1.5mbit. Do you have any ideas how this can be? I have r09:30
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djszapipawky_: got truncated after "I have r..."09:31
pawky_ I have reset the phone, but still no difference. Could there be yet another hardware issue09:31
SpeedEvilIt's not hardware09:31
pawky_(damn irssi...) I have reset the phone, but still no difference. Could there be yet another hardware issue somewhere?09:31
SpeedEvilalso - how are you putting it into hotspot mode?09:32
pawky_using the hot-spot app..09:32
djszapiprobably joikuspot09:32
pawky_might be :-)09:32
pawky_the one that comes with the phone...09:32
SpeedEvilwell - it's a bug in that09:32
SpeedEvilreport it09:32
pawky_But.... it worked on my other phones...09:33
djszapiyes, there are not many other options than that only application ;-)09:33
djszapipawky_: tried 64 bit btw ?09:33
djszapiand different networkmanager on the host ?09:33
pawky_hmm.... maybe, not sure... Will test tonight.09:33
djszapialso, how do you see it from the host in your networkmanager ?09:33
djszapido you only see it "open" already before connecting ?09:34
pawky_djszapi: used several computers, and my N900 with the same results..09:34
djszapijust for making clear, you did not provide the requested outputs either last night.09:34
pawky_the N9 only provides ad-hoc and no encryption...09:34
pawky_djszapi: I thought I did, what did I miss?09:34
djszapiconsole, syslog, to say the least :)09:35
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djszapi(phone and host laptop wise)09:35
pawky_well, I did write about that suspisious message I got in the syslog...09:36
djszapithat is not "pasting the requested information".09:36
djszapithat is something you thought might be relevant (but not really in fact)09:37
pawky_Well, I will be able to give you all the information needed tonight :-)09:37
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pawky_djszapi: might not be relevant to you, but interesting to me... ;-)09:37
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djszapialso, filing a bug without steps to reproduce and logs makes not much sense either.09:38
pawky_I suspect there is some hardware issue with the wireless/3g chip....09:38
djszapieverything is possible until further debugging..09:38
pawky_djszapi: well, the procedure is straight forward. Configure for 128 bit use. Start app, try to connect...09:39
djszapicannot reproduce -> invalid.09:39
djszapihas been working for two years ;-)09:39
pawky_It will be known to other computers as an unencrypted wireless unit, to which you can connect ad-hoc09:39
SpeedEvilpawky_: how were 'other computers connecting to it' ?09:40
pawky_djszapi: can reproduce 100% of the time. As a matter of fact, thats the only thing the phone can do...09:40
* djszapi asked the same questions yesterday without getting concrete answers ;)09:40
pawky_SpeedEvil: They connected using Wireless09:40
pawky_and the unit was connected to 3g.09:40
SpeedEvilHow do you know they were connected to it?09:40
pawky_well.. they had the ip range it gave out.. The unit showed their MAC address on the allow deny list... and the speed achieved when doing download/upload test gave me a hint i was on 3g...09:41
SpeedEvilThen it's a bug in the app09:42
SpeedEvilreport that.09:42
djszapinot neccesarily.09:42
djszapiand please do not report it without logs anyway09:42
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djszapipawky_: what you should is provide log from phone and host side here, and if nothing works, reflash it.09:42
pawky_SpeedEvil: well.. could be... except for my two earlier N9 worked flawlessly on this matter... (they failed heavily on others though)09:42
djszapiyou did many weird actions in the past anyways. you may have screwed up the phone.09:42
pawky_djszapi: This is a NEW phone...09:43
SpeedEvilIf the app is setup to say that it requires encryption, and it misconfigures the interface - this is a bug.09:43
djszapiplease just follow my instruction... :)09:43
djszapiyou tend to do make weird actions, start it with a clean reflash09:43
pawky_djszapi: The first one, Nokia screwed up at manufacture, the second thought it had a newer version of the OS than it had and refused flashing... this is the 3rd.09:43
pawky_djszapi: Don't blaim me for Nokias short comings regarding manufacturing this phone...09:44
jonniI cannot reproduce, 128bit web shows as 128bit web encryption in my mac and win709:44
djszapipawky_: the problem is that I asked for thousand information, and got nothing09:44
pawky_jonni: its so odd... the phone states it uses 128 bit encryption and shows the password needed (when clicking on that icon).09:45
SpeedEvilIf you have not installed any software other than through ovi, and it is a purchased phone, then rpeort the bug.09:45
djszapibut he did...09:45
djszapihe wanted to backup the phone...09:45
djszapipawky_: anyway, the entry point is to provide the information the people asked imo09:45
djszapisyslog, console, which connection manager on the host, whether you tried wep 64 and all that jazz.09:46
jonniand your running PR1.1?09:46
pawky_jonni: so, you haven't heard of any problems with the 3g/wifi chip on these phones?09:46
pawky_jonni: yup.09:46
jonnihavent heard any problems09:46
pawky_djszapi: will do, tonight09:46
SpeedEvilpawky_: It's not the chip09:46
SpeedEvilpawky_: The chip can't do that.09:46
djszapiyes, it can09:47
djszapiif it is broken.09:47
SpeedEvilpawky_: In order for it to act as a hotspot, the CPU has to be involved relaying the packets.09:47
pawky_fair enough...09:47
djszapieven a memory issue can cause such issues, not just the chip.09:47
pawky_but the issue I was actually trying to hunt down was wether the 3g chip had some issues..09:47
pawky_this was just the bonus part...09:47
SpeedEvilA memory issue is astoundingly unlikely to cause a persistant bug.09:47
djszapiit caused many times.09:48
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pawky_SpeedEvil: I would vote for that..09:48
pawky_SpeedEvil: I mean, I second that09:48
djszapiit actually caused persistant bugs in many areas on various phones got bad memory.09:48
pawky_It would be a bit more inconcistent, like my first phone, rebooting every 10 actions..09:48
SpeedEvilRandom bugs - sure. But programs are not loaded into deterministic addresses.09:49
djszapilike it popped up a warning dialog about open mode *persistantly* without custom kernel09:49
SpeedEvilThat's probably the 'fault' of aegis.09:49
djszapior the devicelock settings was *persistently* broken09:49
pawky_Well, in my humble oppionion, the software tries to get the chip into one mode, but it gets interpreted differently..09:50
djszapinothing to do with aegis.09:50
SpeedEvilIt's catching coruptions that would otherwise cause segfaults or random errors.09:50
djszapiit was the fault of the bad memory.09:50
SpeedEviland interpreting it as someone modifying the files.09:50
pawky_jonni:So you do not suspect there might be yet another hardware issue with this phone as well?09:50
djszapipawky_: again, hard to tell without logs and information09:50
djszapiwe are not magicians :)09:51
jonnipawky_: most likely no09:51
SpeedEvil'normal' operations do not get predictable repeatable corruptions from memory errors.09:51
pawky_These are the things i will check tonight: 128 bit (fetch logs), 64 bit, and in the end reflashing. Any more tests?09:51
djszapiSpeedEvil: ok, we have just dreamed these while developing internally :)09:51
djszapimore hundreds of us, sure ... ;)09:51
SpeedEvildjszapi: Umm - sure you will get aegis popping up warnings consistently on memory errors. Aegis is not a normal app - it's doing checksums.09:52
djszapipawky_: yes, try command line connection on host.09:52
pawky_What is most odd, is that it will enter ad-hoc mode, and not the... "whatever its called" mode.09:52
djszapiSpeedEvil: you lost the point. It was randomly an issue with anything, but persistently with that part.09:52
pawky_djszapi: like?09:52
djszapiso a bad memory can corrupt anything *persistently*, not just aegis operation09:53
pawky_as, the unit only will anounce itself in ad-hoc, thats what I can connect to it.09:53
djszapisomeone had issues with contacts, accounts, messages, and the like.09:53
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djszapipawky_: like iwconfig wlan0 mode ad-hoc && iwconfig wlan0 essid PawkyTest key s:XXX && dhclient wlan009:53
SpeedEvildjszapi: the persistance is only because of a specific property of aegis. It checksums files. Any memory error at all during a file read of a summed file will be detected. Without aegis - a memory error will 'just' cause silent corruption, or crash, or ...09:54
pawky_djszapi: oh, that old stuff... ok, tedious but will do.09:55
djszapianyway, it might be a hardware issue as well.09:55
djszapisince nothing is proven anyway :)09:55
djszapipawky_: tedious to make an alias and type one keypress for a connection ?09:55
pawky_djszapi: I believe jonni votes for a 'no' there...09:55
djszapiI never trust super ui apps :)09:55
jonnipawky_: be sure to run PR1.1, that web128 is ad-hoc connection anyways, if it doesnt ask for web key then you have a problem.09:55
jonnipawky_: and you can also test devel-su; echo 1 > /sys/devices/platform/wl1271/allow_adhoc09:56
pawky_jonni:will do09:58
jonniafaik it always enters the ad.hoc mode, I'm not sure what mode are you expecting it to be.09:58
pawky_The one all wireless routers are using.. the other one...09:59
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pawky_(can't check... I am behind a "#¤! windows machine, for some hours to come..)09:59
jonnipawky_: that is not supported. N9 joikuspot only creates web128 as adhock09:59
pawky_AP mode?09:59
pawky_access point mode10:00
jonnipawky_: ap mode is not supported,10:00
pawky_ok... interesting10:00
jonnipawky_: so it works as specified, n9 joikuspot always use adhoc10:00
jonniso its not a bug but a feature10:00
pawky_ok, then i have to prove it does not use the encryption then. I thought the ad-hoc mode was fishy as well..10:00
pawky_lol... yeah, a feature10:01
pawky_if all things fail, I will go for flashing this phone as well. This time I have well prepared for having all the right versions to flash.10:01
jonniI would only be worried it it doesnt ask for password when connecting and if it would still route trafic afterwards10:01
pawky_jonni: very true indeed. It did anounce itself as being an open wireless without encryption on all my machines.10:02
pawky_and, the N90010:02
djszapiSpeedEvil: note, random issue can cause persistent issue10:03
pawky_whilst the phone stating it was using 128 bit encryption.10:03
SpeedEvildjszapi: of course.10:03
SpeedEvildjszapi: If it corrupts filesystem10:03
djszapinot really10:03
jonniannounce vs connecting, your machines can show old cached version of the annoucement.10:03
pawky_fair enough, will double check.10:04
SpeedEvilAnd verify.10:04
djszapisorry, I meant to say not really random aegis issue can cause only persistent issue.10:04
pawky_did quite some network daemon restarts etc though..10:04
pawky_wireless on off...10:04
SpeedEvil'connect' through phone, in the 'malfunctioning' manner - and then turn off the phone without touching the computer settings10:04
pawky_and some log checks..10:04
SpeedEvilverify the connection goes away10:04
pawky_SpeedEvil: will do10:05
djszapiI recommended the phone turn off last night, but it did not apparently take place either :)10:05
pawky_djszapi: did it.. no difference10:06
pawky_djszapi: I do listen to you, you know... Maybe not always keeping up responding...10:07
djszapias for me, super ui apps never worked, just the skeleton console command if that helps you.10:07
djszapiand ppp never worked properly on my linux.10:08
djszapiI would not personally have used joikuspot, if ppp had worked10:08
* SpeedEvil setup ppp the old way to use with his n900.10:09
pawky_I have no problems trying it through command line as well...10:09
SpeedEvilI think I first did it with my 33k6 modem. All that's changed is the port.10:09
pawky_SpeedEvil: can use my N900 as a client as well.10:09
pawky_as a "different OS" option.10:10
djszapipawky_: does the email client work properly for you ? It takes me sometimes hour to get any mails out of it.10:10
pawky_The initial problem, why internet radio doesn't work on 3g still persists though. This bug was just a side effect when trying to prove wether it could be the provider or not.10:11
pawky_djszapi: yes, except for Exchange (at times) but that might be my company..10:11
djszapiyou did not provide the required information on that front either ;-)10:11
djszapiright, it does not work for me on N9, nor on N950 with a simple gmail account10:12
pawky_djszapi: well, i kind of got baffeled by this problem...10:12
djszapitried with RDC, and without that too.10:12
djszapibut I heard others saying the same issue.10:12
djszapi(not everybody though)10:12
pawky_djszapi: I have 2 hotmail, and 2 IMAP ordinary accounts + one exchange... all but exchange works from home. Exchange does from work (thus Ill bet its the windows guys)10:12
pawky_as soon as I get this hot-spot thing cleared out, I will continue my research why internet radio works through Wifi and not 3g, when telnet nicely works through 3g to the station (BBC by example)10:14
djszapipawky_: wish you the best :)10:14
pawky_djszapi: I understand your hesitation using joikuspot, but it was for testing purposes, and I think its a nifty feature when connecting my transformer that lacks 3g connection10:15
pawky_djszapi: Will need that... ;-)10:15
djszapinote, change the password frequently with joikuspot since it is wep10:15
djszapiI personally do it with every connection (~every single day).10:15
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djszapiN950or at least check the connected pcs :)10:18
rcgactually... since its wep it doesn't matter whether you change the password or not.. _if_ someone wants to get your password its just a matter of seconds anyhow10:19
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tabasko_annoying morning, N9 wakes me up and screen is unresponsive so I cannot switch alarm off :)10:20
djszapiN950hehe :)10:21
djszapiN950rcg seconds ??10:21
tabasko_does anybody else have this problem with calendar notify's/alarms and even phone ringins? :/10:21
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tabasko_after I turn screen of and on screen wakes up again10:21
tabasko_I mean it takes gestures again10:22
tabasko_I wondered if this due screenlock password so I turned it off so I can see if it takes effect. Feel bit unsecure now :)10:22
rcgand nowadays there are even more sophisticated methods for cracking wep.. iirc you don't even need that huge amount of packets to get the password10:25
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rcgessentially, if you use wep you could as well use none encryption at all if it comes to protecting you against attackers... only thing you get is that you keep other "normal users" from using your access point10:26
SpeedEvilAnd it provides a legal obstacle.10:27
SpeedEvilAnyone accessing it clearly does not have permission.10:27
rcgSpeedEvil: agreed10:27
rcgbut well... when talking about "attackers" they don't mind legal aspects in the first place... i think10:27
djszapiN950rcg interesting i had to spend one hour with it 8-10 years ago. :)10:28
pawky_djszapi, sounds a bit paranoid to me, changing all wifi settings everywhere... but sure, that might keep you a bit more secure as long as the passphrases are true random.10:29
pawky_tabasko_: its a don't be late feature... :-)10:29
djszapiN950why paranoid ? according to my previous experience it was perfectly fine10:30
djszapiN950i have 30-40 minutes traveling, so nobody could hack it anytime.10:30
SpeedEvilWEP can now be cracked in seconds10:31
pawky_djszapiN950: well.. I believe you connect using ssh, and maybe https anyway... not?10:31
rcgdjszapiN950: yeah, it's actually very interesting how attacks against wep improved over time10:31
djszapiN950none of them10:31
tabasko_pawky_: first tought about that too, but why it does it even when phonecall is coming in? Thats pretty annoying :)10:31
pawky_SpeedEvil: yes, i love it... when needing a quick connection in the middle of nowhere...10:32
djszapiN950i do not connect to the phone for hacking, jist using the mobile internet on my laptop10:32
pawky_djszapiN950: then, would it be to much of a hazzle if someone else was peeking upon to where you surf? ;-)10:33
macmaNdjszapiN95 is back, how about that10:33
djszapiN950i am not wondering you are proud of illegal issues agaon...10:33
djszapiN950pawky of course, especially in case roamong where 1 mb / 1 eur10:34
djszapiN950and as I said, you can check the connected clients anyway, even on yhe ui.10:36
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djszapiN950rcg thanks for the docs; I will read that :)10:39
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pawky_djszapiN950: Well, lets not go there... one thing is theory, the other is reality. ;-)10:41
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pawky_djszapiN950: I believe in the UK its now even a crime to connect to someone elses fully open Wireless... No clue how they will be able to enforce such law, regarding all the ce hot-spots...10:42
SpeedEvilpawky_: It's not.10:42
djszapiN950sounds like you an ms representetive10:42
SpeedEvilpawky_: It's a crime to access a computer syustem without authorisation.10:42
SpeedEvilThis is not quite teh same thing10:43
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pawky_SpeedEvil: and, connectiong to your neighbours wireless would be considered as?10:46
pawky_(unencrypted that is)10:46
SpeedEvilIt depends on their intent.10:46
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pawky_i still remember a court case in the uk a few years back where the guy faced 8 years inprisonment10:47
pawky_The guy had used his neighbours unencrypted wireless...10:47
pawky_I believe he got 2 years in the end...10:47
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djszapiN950link ?10:49
marsjepolitics and technology.......... *sigh*10:50
djszapiN950is it usually around 7-8 days to get an application into into Ovi, or does it depend a lot on the special case ?10:53
pawky_marsje: your right there...10:54
SpeedEvilpawky_: - I think you may have been referring to.10:54
SpeedEvil12 months conditional discharge is not 2 years. The fine is a bit steep though.10:55
jonnidjszapiN950:  atleast it usually has taken 7 days to get my application updates into ovi, as it usually requires 2-3 different testers to test the binary.10:55
jonnifixing textonly descriptions without submitting new deb packagage usually has taken 1-2 days.11:00
djszapiN950and not the updates, but the first submit ?11:01
jonnithat took 7-8 days too if I remember right11:01
djszapiN950thanks. Since it is relarively a long time for spending the time with in case of minor issues: is there a community "tips and trick before submittin to Ovi wikipage" ?11:05
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pawkyps aux|less11:22
pawkySpeedEvil: Might be that guy... but 2 year probation could just as weel have been 2 year imprisonment... which leads to using neighbours wifi (unencrypted) could lead to imprisonment for years..11:32
jonniIn Finland its quite legal to use neighbours unprotected wifi.11:36
djszapi(same in Hungary)11:37
pawkyjonni: well, like Sweden... and it must be. I really cannot see how the law could prohibit it, as most people have no way to distinguish who has what wifi, and what is a hot-spot and not...11:38
pawkyThats why I thought the story was so odd....11:38
pawkyand remembered it.11:38
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pawkyI believe the whole WiFi stuff is a grey area when it comes to law...11:40
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khertani've got some stupid layout pb with qml in landscape mode13:51
khertanwhen i display in landscape13:52
khertani got something unusable as most part is hidden by the vkb13:52
khertanhow can i do it ?13:52
khertan <<< the current qml "code"13:53
jonnimaybe just change layout anchors based on orientation14:04
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khertanjonni: good idea, but virtual keyboard on landscape use almost all screen14:08
khertanso this didn't change so much14:08
khertanhow can i made my page scrolling ?14:08
jonnithere is plenty of space with intelligent layout, altough if I remember right focused inputfield is autoscrolled anyways.14:16
jonnior make page flickable14:22
khertanhum ... flickable maybe it s the solution14:25
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rZranyone here has shared repo configured on n950 ?14:29
rZri want to test a game but my phone is not handy14:30
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khertanrzr : which shared repo ?14:40
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rZrkhertan: mine
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khertan <<< is it still working with recent version of Qt ?15:56
khertanproduce only deb15:56
khertanno source package for me15:57
khertanDébute : "C:\QtSDK\Madde\wbin\mad.cmd" -t harmattan-platform-api dpkg-buildpackage -sa -S -uc -us -Imoc -Iobj -Ircc -Iui -I.svn -I*.deb -I*.changes -Iqtc_packaging -IMakefile -I*.pro.user -I<packagename> La syntaxe de la commande n'est pas correcte. Le processus "C:\QtSDK\Madde\wbin\mad.cmd" s'est terminé avec le code 1.15:57
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khertangrrr now qtcreator generate package with wrong version16:12
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kevin_banyone built openMax for harmattan?17:35
khertankevin_b:< ?17:37
jonnikevin_b: "gst-openmax is just a wrapper. The Nokia N9 doesn’t have OpenMAX IL libraries. In theory you could get TI’s OMAP3 OpenMAX IL and use them there, but it would be a waste in time. It’s much easier to just use GStreamer directly."17:38
jonnijust a paste from google search :)17:39
jonnior quick answer would be: NO :)17:40
kevin_bwanna try vlc on N9, it uses openMax for such arm target17:41
kevin_bthanks for the answers Mr. Hackzors17:41
jonnikevin_b: here is VLC for N9 for you
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kevin_byup, but useless without openmax = if not using dsp17:43
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* merlin1991 has his n9 back :)17:56
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hiemanshuPR 1.2 out?18:33
hiemanshuwell its close to release atleast18:35
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khertanbut could be as close as the fremantle pr1.218:39
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DocScrutinizer51somebodyt should already ask for the sourcecode DVD :-D19:02
DocScrutinizer51as it seems Nokia again isn't willing to share the code via internet19:04
mgedminhasn't someone already done that?19:05
DocScrutinizer51qole asked and got the answer 'available on request' - as usual19:05
DocScrutinizer51not for 1.2 I guess19:05
mgedminah, but has anyone received 1.2?19:08
mgedmin(in binary form)19:08
DocScrutinizer51see URL of hiemanshu above19:08
DocScrutinizer51and why do you think I say 'already ask for source now'?19:09
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DocScrutinizer51anticipating they will process the inquiry not sooner than rolling out 1.2beta19:10
mgedminiow, no19:10
DocScrutinizer51iow dunno19:11
DocScrutinizer51announcement been yesterday19:11
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itsnotabigtruckmmm, caffeine19:28
itsnotabigtruckanyway, the question is, is it worth bothering them about the source before PR1.2 release comes out19:29
itsnotabigtruckif there's a gap of 2 weeks between the beta and the final version, and they take their time with the dvd mailing, what's the point19:29
itsnotabigtruckalso, they didn't actually release the PR1.2 beta yet, right? only announce that the N950 illuminati will receive it19:30
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer51 mgedmin ^19:30
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itsnotabigtruckso i guess it hinges on whether they have to honor the request, if they haven't released 1.2 beta yet at the moment19:34
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elena1986are there any native speakers of English around here please?19:48
nix-cyrushey guys. Phone didn't see gsm and 3g at all.. but it understand that sim is inserted. which daemon or system respond for that?19:49
nix-cyruselena1986: да тут их больше всего)19:49
elena1986I'm looking for an English to help me compose a few sentences19:50
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mgedminnix-cyrus, tried rebooting?19:51
nix-cyrusmgedmin: offcourse..rebooting, switching on\off airplane mode..19:51
* mgedmin has no idea19:52
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lbtelena1986: to say....20:01
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elena1986"We have developed our own framework which includes a knowledgebase and toolbox that allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes reducing a lengthy porting process to a minimum."20:02
elena1986lbt would you kindly check the above for grammar and overall neatness>20:03
lbtmainly OK but too long20:04
elena1986would you please help me rephrase it somehow?20:04
lbtWe have developed our own framework - including a knowledgebase and toolbox - that allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes. This reducing a lengthy porting process to a minimum20:05
elena1986this * is reducing ?20:05
lbt"allows us" ... why would I care that "us" needs a knowledgebase or has a toolbox20:05
RST38hlbt: s/reducing/reduces20:05
RST38hor ", thus reducing"20:06
lbtyeah ... textbox is too small to scan :)20:06
elena1986thanks )20:06
elena1986that's just brilliant lbt and RST38h20:07
lbtWe have developed our own framework, knowledgebase and toolbox which allows us to develop for multiple devices and screen sizes. This reduces a lengthy porting process to a minimum.20:07
elena1986that's exactly what I was trying to say20:07
elena1986how about this one:20:08
elena1986The Framework also contains a Localization KIT which allows simultaneous multi-lingual release and provides the ability to localize the game into any language (including oriental languages) under tight deadlines.20:08
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lbtdon't capitalise20:08
elena1986*which allows simultaneous multi-lingual releases20:10
elena1986or 'which enables us to release multi-lingually'?20:10
* RST38h yawns20:10
lbtsounds redundant too20:10
lbtthe former20:10
RST38hThe framework also contains a localization kit that lets you localize your software in any language (including oriental languages), quickly, and make a multi-language release.20:11
RST38hok, make it "quickly localize"20:11
RST38hsave on commas20:12
lbtremove localiization too ... dedupe20:12
elena1986Our framework also contains a loc kit that lets US quickly localize any game in any language and make a multi0language release.20:12
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RST38hIn fact, remove the whole "also contains a localization kit that"20:12
lbtThe framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental languages), quickly, and make a multi-language release20:13
RST38hnobody needs to know how this feature is called in your design docs20:13
RST38hlbt:wrong English at "and make"20:13
elena1986this is not the framework's ad20:13
elena1986it's all about developing games20:13
elena1986I am trying to say that we use our own framework that lets us quickly localize our own games20:14
lbtThe framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental languages) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:14
lbtThe framework also supports localization of your software in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:14
elena1986not *your software!20:15
elena1986*our games20:15
lbtOur framework also supports localization of the software in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:15
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lbtOur framework also supports localization of the games in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:15
elena1986'supports *rapid localization of the games in any language20:16
elena1986is this bettr?20:16
RST38hsupports rabid localization!20:16
RST38helena: forget "of the"20:16
RST38helena: it is too Russian, or German20:16
elena1986russian :P20:16
RST38helena: forget games, just write software localization20:16
elena1986but we develop games?20:17
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RST38hgames are software20:17
RST38hif some chinese decides to develop a game selection menu or a media player with your framework, will it still be game?20:18
elena1986Our framework also supports *software localization in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:18
RST38hmore or less, yes20:18
elena1986we don't give our framework to anyone20:18
elena1986we use it ourselves20:18
elena1986trying to say that 'hey, if you want us to release this game in Chinese, we will do'20:19
elena1986because we have A KIT !20:19
RST38hmhm, I think it is not a translation but a message problem20:19
elena1986this is not a framework ad. just an emphasis on the possibility of quick localization of ANY GAME20:19
RST38hNobody gives a damn about the framework you are using20:19
RST38hIf you are selling yourselves, advertise yourselves, not the framework20:20
nix-cyruselena1986: could I make a request?)20:20
elena1986they need localized games!20:20
RST38hLike this:20:20
lbtRST38h: well, it helps explain how they acheive results and describes a capability20:20
nix-cyruselena1986: actually not a game.. but chinese web-browser - uc. need to translate it to eng+rus :)20:21
RST38hlbt: the customer does not care how they achieve results, believe me, I know ;)20:21
RST38hlbt: and yes, every contractor uses SOME framework20:21
RST38hlbt: and they all let you localize nowadays20:21
lbtall true.... I was just doing grammar for a bit .... not a marketing analysis :)20:23
lbtnot enough context for that20:23
RST38helena: "We will quickly localize your game into multiple languages, including oriental Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, and make a compact multi-language release.20:23
lbtanyhoo.... food beckons..... o/20:23
RST38hscratch "oriental", keep the rest20:23
RST38hBTW, if you are advertising your services, rather than framework, there are going to be different "features" customers look for20:24
RST38hlike dedicated support people, including dedicated product manager, short development time, clearly defined development process20:25
RST38has in "we will tell you what is going on at each stage of the process, on preagreed schedule"20:26
elena1986ok, I'll make it: Our framework also supports localization of our games in any language (including oriental) making multi-lingual releases quick and easy.20:26
RST38hwell, not exactly this wording but something like it20:26
RST38hyeah, this will do, if you are selling framework20:26
elena1986there's a short paragraph talking about the framework20:27
elena1986what seems to be the trouble?20:27
RST38hnothing, it is ok, please, go on.20:27
elena1986This approach enables us to produce competitive products and respond quickly to ever-changing market demands.20:27
elena1986how about this?20:28
elena1986to THE ever-changing?20:28
elena1986The use of innovative technology in mobile gaming will often present challenges to gamers. All our games offer user-friendly interface, and if any problem arise the user may contact our Technical Support team to receive prompt and quality assistance.20:29
elena1986is the above ok and grammatical?20:29
elena1986"all our games offer user-friendly interface"20:30
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nix-cyrusbtw anyone have and for N9\N950?20:39
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Venemohey guys20:46
nix-cyrusVenemo: hey) trying today new version of chatter(that didn't need installing any deps).. and can't join rooms :(20:47
Venemonix-cyrus, you need to enter a full name and an ident20:48
Venemoif you leave either one empty, freenode won't let you connect20:48
nix-cyrusVenemo: oh.. ok. I'll try tomorrow again. thnx20:49
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Venemonix-cyrus, this already has a workaround in master, but we haven't made a new release yet.20:49
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itsnotabigtruckelena1986: still there?22:05
itsnotabigtruck'a user-friendly interface' or 'user-friendly interfaces' is more correct22:05
itsnotabigtruckthe first one connotes that all the games have the same interface or something like that, which might not be what you want22:05
itsnotabigtrucktbh the interface isn't the first thing one thinks about concerning a game22:06
itsnotabigtruckyou'd be better off using the description to talk about the gameplay idea and how cool it is22:06
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mwrfJust got an N9 today!22:38
admiral0mwrf: yay22:38
mwrfLove it22:38
mwrfhave a problem though22:38
mwrfEnabling developer mode, I get "installation interupted" every time22:39
nix-cyrusmwrf: PR1.1?22:39
mwrfI cant get to a terminal because developer mode won't enable. Chicken and Egg situation. Any suggestions?22:41
GeneralAntillesAre there flashable firmware images available for N9s yet?22:42
nix-cyrusmaybe try to use another terminal..22:44
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mgedminGeneralAntilles, official ones or unofficial ones?22:51
mgedminI've never heard of the first kind22:51
mgedminthe other kind can reportedly be downloaded with navifirm, if you have a windows machine or Wine22:52
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GeneralAntillesAh, that's dumb.22:56
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jonniah mwrf already left the channel, usually dev mode fails to install on new devices, because user has forgotten to set the right date first. (install fails on out of the box date)23:16
admiral0yes, happened to me too23:17
nix-cyrusbtw .. looking for termianl and can't find it..23:19
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nix-cyrusthere is a different.. nondefalut terminal application... that shows all keys under the main desktop23:20
nix-cyrusand when you start typing it going on the front.. stop typing going to the back.. something like that23:20
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M4rtinKthp: I have finally finished my guide to running PyGame on the Touchpad:
M4rtinKI wrote a short script that adds Python & PyGame to path and launches that T^3 game23:28
M4rtinKand also did a bundle that contains Python, PyGame, my script and T^3 -> unpack & run :)23:29
MohammadAGsomeone reverse navifirm and write it in Qt23:34
MohammadAGit can't be that hard23:34
* admiral0 and here comes MohammadAG23:35
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admiral0MohammadAG: it uses soap23:52
admiral0i could create a quick perl script23:52
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