IRC log of #harmattan for Saturday, 2011-12-03

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ajalkaneAnyone know if I have to specify some Aegis magic to change Flight mode on N9 from application? Seems not to work at the moment even as the function returns success...00:41
javispedrowhat's the problem?00:51
javispedroeither way, you can trigger a "Do you want to get out of Flight mode" dialog by trying to make a connection using the qt bearer/mobility api00:51
javispedrobut that's about it00:51
ajalkanejavispedro: basically the problem is that even as I call MeeGo::QmDeviceMode.setMode(MeeGo::QmDeviceMode::Flight), the device doesn't go to flight mode00:52
ajalkaneOh, qtMobility API has flight mode setting too... I have missed that.00:53
javispedroaccording to my sources (aka intuition) that requires mce::DeviceModeControl00:53
ajalkanejavispedro: okay thanks! I'm really virgin on everything according aegis. I'll look into how I can use that.00:55
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javispedroajalkane: the problem is, you can't00:55
javispedroajalkane: it's on the list
ajalkaneAww... shite. This is one of those forbidden things?00:55
javispedroalso, my guess was correct: (setMode requires mce::DeviceModeControl)00:57
javispedroyeah :(00:57
ajalkaneI guess I'll dispatch tomorrow a message to Nokia's developer forum about Flight mode. Hopefully there's some Nokia engineers that could give some light to that...00:58
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javispedrogood luck...00:58
ajalkaneKinda annoying to spend the evening coding flight mode stuff to be stabbed in the back by policy framework00:59
lardman~lart qml00:59
* infobot nukes qml with a single large nuke00:59
lardmanargh, bloody delegates, I'm at my wit's end01:03
ajalkaneSeems like there's already been some discussion on this
ajalkaneI better go sleeping. It's the best time for it. Being bloody and beaten. Crying in my own vomit and tears.01:05
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javispedrolardman: pfft, I'm trying to make a ListView where the items have varying heights01:06
javispedrolardman: and among other things ListView.contentHeight property is going crazy, its value changing depending on the selected item (!!!)01:06
lardmanjavispedro: I was trying for fixed height, but fixed to height of largest content01:06
javispedro(docs say it should be the sum of all the items' heights)01:06
lardmanmy opinion, is that it's not really very logical01:07
javispedrowoah, that sounds even harder01:07
lardmane.g. Text items should scale to their container afaiu, but that doesn't seem to work, but then I can't actually obtain the pixel size of the contents01:07
lardmans/scale/wrap if wrap mode is set01:08
javispedroI found after some trial&error than you can do height: childrenRect.height01:08
javispedroso that the container of the Text element grows in height to contain all the height01:08
javispedro*all the Text element01:08
lardmanyeah that doesn't work for me strangely, in portrait I see all of my listview items, but in portrait I see them all overlaid01:09
javispedrootherwise, it won't. It'll look like it works but in truth it's only working because for some reason QML doesn't default to clipping01:09
lardmanah apparently there's a clip property, according to some docs, but doesn't seem to work for me01:09
lardmanmight be clipping, /me would have to check again01:10
lardmaneither way, didn't work01:10
javispedroit just clips painting, does nothing regarding positioning01:10
javispedroI suggest you start with the delegate being directly a Text element, see if it works and move from there01:11
lardmantbh it's a pita, I'd prefer a graphical editor and to drag and drop the items as it's not logically consistent, or at least we don't know the rules and their precendence01:11
lardmanmy delegate is an image with a column of 3 text elements that move either below or to the side depending on the screen orientation01:12
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javispedroboth ListViews and Models are a pita01:13
javispedropositioning has always been IMHO Qt's achillees heel01:13
javispedroand models are just a pain to write. Can't even believe I had to write a function that converts a QList<Something*> to a QList<QObject*>01:14
javispedro(by casting each element)01:14
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w00tassuming you're talking about exposing C++ objects to QML, you wouldn't, if you'd used qmlRegisterUncreatableType01:18
lardmanjavispedro: quite01:18
lardmanI've wasted so many hours arsing about with models and bloody qml (especially delegates)01:19
javispedrow00t: for a model, you can't, only recognized type is QList<QObject*>, period.01:19
lardmanw00t: never even heard of that01:19
javispedrowell, and QAbstractItemModel, but that'd probably be even more code01:19
* lardman has QAbstractItemModel01:20
lardmannot much code, works out of the box pretty much, quite good, though the docs are very sparse01:20
w00tI'm pretty sure that there's a better way, but I don't use QList models, so I'm not certain01:20
w00ttake a look at anyway01:20
w00tit's easy to use, and for most cases will probably make your life pretty easy01:21
* lardman 's problem is QML delegates01:21
w00tlardman: what about them?01:21
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lardmanI can't get them to work01:21
w00tthat's.. not really the most helpful problem description ;)01:22
lardmanone gets that way after messing about with them for weeks on end after work ;)01:23
w00tok, what am I looking at?01:23
lardmana ListView delegate01:24
lardmanbut yeah, I understand that it;s not that easy to understand a piece of code on its won01:25
w00twell, what about it, for instance01:25
lardmanperhaps /me should accept that implementing UIs isn't his thing, and that he should just hard code the sizes and crack on with the interesting stuff (i.e. the functionality)....01:28
w00tI can't really just conjure a solution out of thin air from "it doesn't work" (with no symptoms or explanation as to what doesn't work) and a 153 line pastebin01:29
lardmanof course not, I wasn't actually asking you too, just letting off steam01:29
w00tpoint being, describe the problem01:30
lardmanthere are too many deps to sort out to put up a repo quickly01:30
w00tI might be able to help01:30
w00twhen I have a problem like that, I usually start cutting things down until I find something that does work01:30
lardmanyeah I know, but I need the functionality01:31
w00tthat either makes me find what the problem was, or gets me to a small example that demonstrates something being broken01:31
javispedrolardman: I built a separate project with a handwritten ListModel to test this stuff01:31
lardmanbut, yes I should cut it down to nothing, etc.01:31
javispedrolardman: so that it could be run from qmlviewer01:31
lardmanthat sounds like lots of extra effort and let's be realistic this is scraping the barrel as it is01:32
lardmanbabies and all01:32
javispedrohey, I've been with this since early past month =)01:32
lardmanw00t: the problem, in a nut shell is this: in landscape I only see one item, in portrait I see all of them01:32
lardmanaside from that my mouse click area thingie doens't work, but I;ve not looked into that yet01:33
lardmanjavispedro: I've been doing pretty similar stuff since Sept, the main code was almost finalised then ;)01:33
w00tlardman: you set no height/width on the root Item which probably won't help that01:33
w00t(why have you wrapped it in a Component, by the way?)01:33
lardmanfollowing the examples...01:34
w00tit is necessary in some situations, but not when you're already putting it into a seperate file (and thus, component)01:34
lardmanI'd have to search, first started this code back in Sept01:34
lardmanok fine, noted01:34
javispedroall of the examples define the delegate in a component01:35
lardmaneven if I don;t set the height/width of the root item, why does it work in one orientation and not the other01:35
lardmanand in fact it doesn't overwrite itself, it only shows one item, I've no idea why that would happen01:35
javispedroit's not easy to follow  that the Component { }  is not necessary when it's the only element in a file or it's defined inline as delegate: property value01:35
w00tmagical wizards? who knows01:35
w00tanyway, first thing I'd try would be to set a height/width01:36
lardmanwould be nice for the qml runtime to be able to print out its tree of size relations as it calculates them so I can work out what's messing things up01:36
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lardmanperhaps, but it doesn't have, afaict, a logical reason01:37
lardmanI do actually set the height/width in the states at the bottom btw01:37
lardmanor do you mean of the Component?01:38
* lardman has no clue which "items" default to 0 height/width and which change to fit their content01:39
w00tnone change to fit their content01:39
javispedroexcept Column/Row ;)01:40
w00tunless you explicitly set height: childrenRect.height; width: childrenRect.width01:40
lardmanText {} ?01:40
w00tText has no content, it does have paintedHeight and paintedWIdth01:40
w00tunless you put something in it01:40
lardmanwell exactly, but if I put sometihng in a Rectangle does that change size?01:40
lardmanbut Text does....?01:40
* javispedro dies01:41
lardmanbut all qml items can render beyond their width/height I've noticed?01:41
lardmanvery odd01:41
lardmanand confusing01:41
w00tset clip: true if you don't want it to happen01:42
javispedrow00t: do you mean Text does not change its height even if you set text to something? or that it does not change its height if you add other children to it?01:42
w00tit's off by default for performance reasons01:42
lardmansure, I read about that yesterday, but that's pretty late in the day01:42
lardman+1 to javispedro's question01:42
w00tjavispedro: Text will have an implicitHeight/mplicitWidth, but unless you *set* a height/width, it won't have one of its own01:42
lardmanwhat does Text actually do then?01:42
lardmanoh dear01:43
lardmanso how can one obtain the height/width that will contain some text?01:43
w00t(will be the exact area it needs)01:43
w00timplicitHeight/Width are probably also useful01:43
w00tthis, btw, is actually how clipping works01:43
w00teliding, not clipping01:44
w00tyou set the size smaller than the size it requires01:44
lardmanso how come I can attach e.g. 3 Text items top to bottom and they don't overwrite one another? I've not set heights, so presumably that should be the outcome...?01:45
lardmanbut that makes no sense01:46
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w00tit does01:46
w00timplicitHeight/Width is the size that text *needs* to take01:46
lardmanI understand that it works01:46
w00tsize is the size you *set* it to take01:46
w00ta Rectangle does not *need* to take any room01:46
lardmanjust that if you don;t alter the height/width of the item, what use are they?01:46
w00tif it has an implicitHeight/Width, it'll use those (as it says)01:46
lardmanso why does Rectangle not support that functionality>01:47
w00tbecause a rectangle, as I just explained, doesn't need to take any room01:47
lardmanwe're talking about content though aren't we?01:47
w00tnot necessarily01:47
w00trectangles don't need to have contents01:47
lardmansurely a rectangle containing a Text should have an implicit* set to contain whatever the Text needs01:48
w00tand also, calculating the size of the contents of something is not exactly straightforward01:48
lardmanby rights....01:48
lardmanI understand it's not straight forward, but nor are the docs regarding these things imo01:48
* javispedro also thinks it is counterintuitive01:48
javispedrobut hey, I already found that happens to Rectangle a few days ago..01:49
javispedro(thus width: childrenRect.width)01:49
w00tjavispedro: yeah, I mentioned that a (lot) earlier01:49
lardmanyeah I knew it happened to a Rectangle but jnust assumed that Text was different and set its height/width, but I was wrong about the property names01:49
w00tlardman: it makes sense when you stop thinking of QML as being a system for layouts, because that's not what it does01:50
lardmanthat isn't afair explained anywhere in the docs01:50
lardmanw00t: what does it do then?01:50
javispedrorender particles!01:50
w00tit gives you a scene, and lets you position and anchor stuff wherever you want01:50
lardmanmy particles are Text shaped!01:50
w00tthis is both a strength and a weakness01:50
* lardman sees scene and it washes over him01:51
w00ta strength, because it's a lot faster, proper layouts are hard (and slow), and a weakness because it means a bit more thinking about how to do things01:51
w00tanyway, a good rule of thumb is that you should probably always set anchors/sizes unless you're very sure you don't need them01:51
w00tanchors.fill: parent is your friend for simple cases01:51
* lardman hopes that thjs stuff will be added to the intro01:52
lardmanw00t: that breaks delegates though I think01:52
lardmanand setting fixed height/width is nasty01:52
w00tbtw, a useful debugging trick related to size problems: Item { id: iWantToFindTheSizeOfThis; Rectangle { color: "red"; anchors.fill: parent; } }01:52
w00tit doesn't01:52
w00tand note that I said anchors/sizes, implying, one or the other01:53
w00t(or both, if you need them)01:53
lardmanI did try to use anchors only, but no no avail01:53
lardmancoloured squares work to an extent, but when they are simply not shown it's hard to know why01:53
lardmanagain some output from the qml runtime would be a Godsend01:53
w00tif it's not shown, either something is obscuring it, you forgot a height/width, your positioning of that item is wrong, or you set it invisible somewhere01:54
javispedroI had a button that when pressed would output x,y,w,h01:54
javispedrovia console.log01:54
w00t(opacity: 0, visible: false, one or the other or both)01:54
javispedropain to write too, but helped.01:54
lardmanw00t: indeed, but it would be nice to know which in particular01:54
lardmanif qml simply output a list of objects and their x,y,width,height that would help01:55
lardmanplus anchors01:55
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w00tjavispedro: Rectangle { MouseArea { anchors.fill: parent; onClicked: console.log("x y w h" parent.x ...); } } was hard?01:55
w00t(substitute parent with any id, if you want to get information about something else for a more general button)01:56
w00tone thing I do wish that was easily possible is getting an item by id, though that's tricky due to multiple instantiations of the same component01:56
w00t(though I suppose getting a list of those would be ok)01:56
lardmanw00t: can be done from C++ afaiu01:57
w00tit sort of can, using objectName01:57
w00tunless there's a trick I don't know about01:57
* lardman throws away his delegate and goes back to a single coloured square, great....01:57
lardmanon second thoughts, enough for the week01:58
w00tlardman: I honestly don't mind if you pester me with questions, btw01:58
javispedrow00t: for a few objects01:58
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lardmanthanks w00t, not you, just taking so long to debug this qml is rather disheartening01:58
w00tI'm not always around, but usually am, european day/nighttimes, so if you need to bounce an idea off someone, just ask01:58
javispedroincluding some that were spawned by the listview element01:58
w00tjavispedro: yes01:58
lardmananyway really must his the sack, night w00t javispedro01:59
javispedrocya lardman01:59
lardmansee what i mean01:59
w00tthat's why I mentioned the getElementById thing - it would be handy for those sort of cases01:59
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javispedroah, indeed.01:59
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w00tTextArea { ... }, enter text, press button, get info01:59
javispedrothough I would prefer a pointy-clicky "object-tree" explorer02:00
javispedro(lots of no-id objects)02:00
javispedrohmm, that could probably be done..02:01
w00ti'd think so02:01
w00tintrospection has to be possible for stuff like accessibility02:02
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Sazpaimon__I wiuld kill for nokia maps public transit to support philadelphia06:21
Sazpaimon__then I can completely abandon google06:21
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hiemanshuis there a GUI for apt-* yet?08:15
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luke-jrthe package manager for Maemo/Harmattan (since Nokia never noticed Debian moved to aptitude)09:06
Stskeepsthey moved to aptitude?09:07
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hiemanshuis there a way to run an app as root? If not, then a GUI Package Manager would be useless09:20
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Hq`en nyt laskenu mitään, mutta yleisesti jännitteen lasku vastuksen avulla ei välttämättä oo voittava idea09:54
Hq`wrong channel, sorry09:54
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mostyi have a regular qt app (using qwidgets) that i have setup to rotate based on the orientation of the device. but how can i tell the system to change the orientation of swipe gestures and system notifications?11:30
djszapimosty: may I ask why you use qwidgets ?11:35
mostydjszapi, because i have a complex qt app that runs on multiple operating systems and devices and i don't want to rewrite it in qml11:36
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djszapimosty: you do not need to rewrite it, only the ui part. You will suffer much more with qwidgets "porting" than rewriting the ui in qml11:36
mostydjszapi, if i did that then i'd have a whole new codebase to maintain, which is not fun for a single device11:37
djszapihuh ?11:37
djszapiwe have 60.000 LOC, and the pages for Harmattan (2-3 simple qml files).11:38
djszapithis is what qml was designed for.11:38
djszapiMoreover, pure qml usage is probably also wrong. Using platform components make more sense. Either you will have an ugly Ui or you will be reinventing the look'n feel which is already there.11:39
mostyi have everything working with qwidgets already though11:39
djszapiso what is the problem ?11:40
djszapiif everything works.11:40
hiemanshudjszapi: its not so easy to just port an app from QWidgets to QML11:40
hiemanshuWriting QML, easy, Writing QWidgets, easy, Porting not so easy11:41
djszapihiemanshu: it is super-easy. That is the purpose of the qml, that is what it was designed for11:41
mostythe problem is that the system notifications and swipe gestures think the phone is always in landscape when my app is running11:41
djszapiI wrote a Ui in one day for a codebase with 60.000 LOC11:41
hiemanshudjszapi: I have tried, 4 times, so no11:41
djszapipebkac, it works for many people.11:41
djszapiand porting qwidgets are probably ugly as many people said (also on this channel) since I do not think anybody has alone enough man power to reinvent the native look'n feel.11:43
ZogG_laptopи luke-jr ping11:44
djszapithe only problem I can think of if the codebase is really bad-structured, and the qwidget ui is not separated from the functionality. That is a really bad code infrastructur ethough.11:44
djszapisuch a code should be refactored anyway, and not built more on top of such a codebase.11:45
djszapimosty: so do you have well-separated ui and functionality ?11:48
mostydjszapi, not perfect but not terrible. but i want to use a single codebase on multiple platforms11:49
djszapiyou can do that by using qml11:50
mostywe don't use qml on any other platform, this would just add maintenance cost11:50
djszapiqml is writable by even designers11:51
djszapithat is the whole point. It is much simpler to maintain than porting qwidget.11:51
mostywell when another platform appears that requires qml i will consider it11:51
mostybut i can't justify it for one device11:52
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djszapithat is a very bad approach imho, sorry for saying this11:52
djszapinowadays, mobile platforms keep rocking, I am pretty sure people have just more and more device targetted.11:52
mostyi can't afford to use nokia's framework-of-the-month11:52
djszapiand if you now refuse qml, you will do at the next and so on.11:52
mostyi've seen it change too often11:53
djszapiso ... ?11:53
djszapiThey do not break what is already available, they just improve it further..11:54
mostythat wasn't the case for maemo (gtk?), nor for meegotouch11:55
djszapiqml is not gtk, not even meegotouch11:56
mostyno, those were the previous recommended frameworks, now there is another incompatible one11:56
djszapihuh ?11:56
djszapiI wrote a qml app one and half a year ago, and runs today too.11:57
djszapiThe only problem is that, there are still missing bits, but as far as I know, they do not break the functionality with a QtQucik bump.11:57
djszapiit is not an alpha release.11:57
mostymy qwidget app runs today too11:58
mostyi'm just lacking one piece of platform integration code11:58
djszapiyeah, I see... basic functionality missing :)11:58
djszapiout of the curiosity, can you show me your code ? I got really interested in this..11:59
mostyi can't unfortunately, i don't own the code12:00
djszapiso it is not even open source ?12:00
mostyotherwise i would be glad for the pair of eyes12:00
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ZogG_laptopanyone here with gentoo?12:06
ZogG_laptopluke-jr: now i understand why i didn't want to use portage version, coz it doesn't have qmake for harmattan, i ended with only desktop target, no harmattan target12:11
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djszapiw00t: ping12:13
djszapiw00t: have you read the pim feedback from Friedrich on the qt project mailing list (development) ? If yes, what is your opinion ?12:14
Venemo_N950hey djszapi, how was your birthday party? :)12:20
djszapiVenemo_N950: super-crazy :P12:21
Venemo_N950djszapi :)12:22
djszapiVenemo_N950: thanks for asking, so how are you ?12:24
Venemo_N950djszapi, well as always. :) had 10+ hours of sleep, so I'm in a good mood12:25
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infobotrumour has it, malf is
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Hq`miks tarvii laskee sille jännitettä, onks se jenkkisähkölle tehty?13:51
Hq`wrong channel again13:52
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ZogG_laptopVenemo: hooray14:32
ZogG_laptopyou are from camputer?14:32
Venemohey ZogG_laptop, yes, but from windows unfortunately :)14:40
VenemoZogG_laptop, but good news for you: irc-chatter is evolving once again :) I'm hacking on it on my ideapad14:40
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djszapiarcean: aegis is not the culsprit there.14:53
djszapiarcean: the problem was that the system services and dsme guys handled error retvals like MALF in each case in that mood.14:55
djszapiso after they fixed their error handling, that was not a problem anymore. Aegis was not changed in that regard, and actually it happened with many softwares underneath, not just aegis. The monitor software behaved weirdly, that is. So titling of that jpg that way is a bit misleady.14:56
ZogG_laptopVenemo: can you upload it to testing thru OBS to apss.formeego.org14:57
djszapiVenemo: long life to irc-chatter ! ;)14:58
ZogG_laptopking is dead, long live king14:58
VenemoZogG_laptop, I didn't say it compiles yet14:59
djszapieverybody is welcome for the New Year's kick off Qt and Linux Mobile meetup in Helsinki:
ZogG_laptopdamn i still can't set env for programming15:04
ZogG_laptopas i listned to luke-jr and got QtSDK from ebuild and not one from site and i have no target for mobile15:04
ZogG_laptopgetting scratchbox now15:06
ZogG_laptopmaybe it would help15:06
ZogG_laptopok i need help15:15
djszapiw00t: you got an answer for your regexp post:
djszapiZogG_laptop: what help ?15:16
ZogG_laptopMADDE is what makes me able to build straight on n9 right?15:16
djszapino, you build on the host15:17
Venemojust uninstall that crap, download the Qt SDK and be done with it15:17
ZogG_laptopso i need scratchbox and MADDE?15:17
ZogG_laptopVenemo: i want to install it properly on my system15:17
ZogG_laptopso what is /home/zogg/QtSDK/Madde/targets/harmattan_10.2011.34-1/bin/qmake15:18
RST38hZogG: You need one of two15:18
ZogG_laptopRST38h: one of two what?15:18
RST38hZogG: Either 1) QtSDK with Harmattan target or 2) Scratchbox on Ubuntu Linux (aka Platform SDK)15:19
ZogG_laptopRST38h: no ubuntu here15:19
RST38hWhat OS do you have?15:19
ZogG_laptopRST38h: i have scratchbox ebuilds, madde ebuild and sdk ebuild15:19
RST38hwhat is ebuild?15:19
ZogG_laptopRST38h: funtoo/gentoo15:19
RST38hOk, good luck on your adventure.15:20
RST38hA Windows machine with QtSDK would probably be your best bet though15:20
VenemoZogG_laptop, just download the latest Qt SDK installer from my link and install the damn thing. in the installer, select the harmattan target, and it'll set it up for you15:21
RST38hGiven that QtSDK works on Windows (my copy failed to package and run apps)15:21
ZogG_laptopi use funtoo as primary os, Venemo and i did that, it half worked as it has problems with libpng15:27
ZogG_laptop have 1.5 it wants 1.2 for no reason15:27
Venemowtf, that's weird15:29
ZogG_laptopyeah i can have both, but still that's why i preffer ebuilds and OS env to install SQK and not from site to keep system clean and not to make zoo15:30
Termanadamn it. My N950 won't let me access the storage and it's telling me it's in use. I tried umount -l /home/user/MyDocs but even with develsh/devel-su it says the operation is not permitted. Anyone have any other ideas?15:38
jonnigo to running apps grid and close all applications and replug the cable15:40
TermanaThey are all closed15:40
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jonniand reboot and try again :)15:41
TermanaI tried rebooting. I guess I'll give it another shot15:42
jonniusually its just some application keeping filehandle open which prevents the umount, or having terminal open in that dir.15:43
jonni(which also prevents the umount)15:43
TermanaNope still not working after another reboot15:44
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jonnimaybe youve corrupted filesystem then, or have some application in autostarting on boot15:46
dm8tbrtry checking with 'fuser' or 'lsof'15:46
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Termanadm8tbr, nothing15:54
Termanaseems like its mounted read only on the device as well15:55
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DocScrutinizertoo bad, sounds like corrupted then16:30
DocScrutinizercheck syslog16:31
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ZogG_laptopjonni: is madde fro is the smae used for harmattan and maemo?16:34
RST38hMadde is no longer a standalone project afaik16:34
RST38hIt is now part of QtSDK16:35
RST38hHaven't you got a windows pc there?16:38
ZogG_laptopi don't like and don't want use it16:43
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pawkydo mameo apps run on a N9 out of the box?16:58
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pawkynot even non gui apps?17:01
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Venemopawky, depends.17:10
pawkyVenemo: on?17:10
TSCHAKeeewhy do you ask?17:11
Venemopawky, softfp/hardfp differences17:11
pawkyJust to check how much broader the software sphere is. There are quite some cool apps for the N900 that would be nice to use on th N9 as well :-)17:12
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Venemopawky, they will need a recompile to say the least17:13
pawkyVenemo: I thought it was all Strong ARM ....17:14
pawkyVenemo: ohh.. ah, yea libraries..17:14
Venemopawky, Fremantle doesn't use hardfp or thumb17:14
Venemopawky, also, library versions differ17:14
DocScrutinizerI am using quite some N900 cmdline apps on N950/HARM17:14
Venemopawky, also, Harmattan doesn't have GTK17:14
Venemopawky, also, QWidget-based apps won't work well on Harmattan.17:14
Venemopawky, etc.17:14
pawkyDocScruitinizer:Is there any list anywhere?17:14
DocScrutinizerjust dpkg -i and test ;-D17:15
DocScrutinizereither WFM or SEGV17:15
DocScrutinizercmdline only programs seem rather safe, as long as not using any floating point arithmetic17:16
pawkyDocScruitinizer: well... My initial idea is to keep this phone a tiny bit more clean. I will never forget how long it took me for getting rid of some CIFS half install on my N900...17:16
pawkyDocScruitinizer: Floating point?   Why would that differ?17:17
DocScrutinizerhmm, reflash is always like all new clothes :-D17:17
DocScrutinizerhardfp on HARM17:17
pawkyDocScruitinizer: That's for wimps ;-)17:17
Venemopawky, as I said, Harmattan uses hardfp and Fremantle uses softfp...17:18
pawkyVenemo:ahh.. ok.17:19
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pawkyVenemo: Kind of cool... but I believe floating point is for wimps as well ;-)   64bit integers is the way to go :-D17:19
DocScrutinizerthe problem more is like "which programs may run under paegis?"17:19
Venemopawky, I won't comment on that.17:20
DocScrutinizerpawky: I'll comment on that: YES!17:20
pawkyVenemo: I presume the idea for hardware floating point is for games right?17:20
DocScrutinizergfx, yeah17:20
DocScrutinizerwhile I can't see why gfx *needs* fp17:21
pawkyDocScruitinizer: has anybody ever compared the fp, to some integer arithmetic, speed wise on these phones? :-)17:21
Venemopawky, both softfp and hardfp use hardware for floating point calculations. the difference is that softfp passes floats in the integer registers, while hardfp passes them in the floating point registers.17:21
Stskeepsaw, i've taught venemo something17:21
Venemoyes! I learned this (and a lot more) from Stskeeps :)17:22
pawkyVenemo: I see..  sounds like passing in integer registers would be the faster option, or?17:22
Venemopawky, please think before you say something like that.17:23
Stskeepsno, it's faster in floating point, as you don't need to do float -> integer -> float conversions always when calling a function17:23
DocScrutinizerpawky: luke-jr started something over at #maemo, which seemed to indicate fixed is 3 times faster than fp, but the whole test was abit incoherent on results on a second closer glance, as his results supposedly meant for hardfp were identical to mine for softfp17:25
DocScrutinizerwow, should've read the next two posts - thanks Stskeeps & Venemo17:26
DocScrutinizerthis explains a lot then17:27
DocScrutinizerstill it's silly to use fp when you could get away with (long) int17:27
DocScrutinizerin my book gfx is such a case17:27
Stskeepsyeah... i guess it matters with GLES17:28
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DocScrutinizerso except for CAD and orrery/stellarium I don't see a use for fp in real life programming17:30
DocScrutinizereven for CAD it's questionable17:30
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DocScrutinizerfor audio it's frequently utterly insane17:31
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ZogG_laptopluke-jr: PM me as soon as you here18:42
ZogG_laptopjonni: ping18:43
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djszapiinteresting, Ovi store asks this: "To install this software19:21
djszapiyou need to install its dependencies, do you want to do it?"19:21
Venemoyeah, what's new?19:22
djszapiso Ovi store supports dependency installation ?19:22
djszapiit is really news to me.19:22
VenemoI dunno19:24
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djszapiVenemo: will ask internally :)19:30
Venemodjszapi, ok, thanks :)19:31
ZogG_laptopany nokia guys here?19:39
djszapiexternal matters ?19:42
M4rtinKWell, would be really nice if it did - we are in the year 2011 already after all :)19:42
djszapiit is not about "2011".19:43
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djszapiit is about policy, and they do with their app stores whatever you want. If they would like you to use their platform only, they can. Moreover, you are still not restricted enough since they do not check external libraries you can put into the package.19:44
djszapiX-Fade ping19:44
djszapiwill apps4meego support depdendencies ?19:44
dm8tbrIIRC: currently no, but it might in the future19:45
M4rtinKwell, yeah everything is much simpler if you don't have to do dependency handling, but quite a few use-cases suffer19:45
djszapiM4rtinK: it is not about simple, you do not see the point19:46
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djszapiit is about policy, as in: "I want you to use my platform, and not something else".19:46
M4rtinKI don't see this dependency handling conflicting with store policies.19:47
djszapiok, put it clear: the problem is not that for Intel, Nokia, Google, and others: they are weak to implement dependency handling as such big companies... It is clean policy, it is not about technical implementation and "2011".19:48
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M4rtinKI would say their policy is set like this also because it's simpler like this. :)19:49
djszapino it is not, again it is clean policy. I discussed it more times with one of the Ovi maitainers...19:50
djszapibut I am sure you know better for sure ;-)19:50
djszapiif they would like to have simple things, they would not have cared about security analyzes at all.19:51
djszapisince that is the most difficult part.19:51
M4rtinKlets say that If I built a store/repository myself, it would support dependency handling :)19:51
djszapibut it is only in your dreams, and you did get nothing ready yet, right ?19:52
M4rtinKof course not :)19:52
M4rtinKbut I still don't like artificial limitations like this :)19:53
djszapiwhy ? Why is it artificial to have an opinion what they would like to do with their money ?19:53
djszapiand it is of course not any Nokia specific, butevery bigger companies agreed upon on this philosophy.19:54
djszapiso yes sure ... you can beat the dead horse ;)19:54
M4rtinKit is their decision of course - but in my opinion it is still wrong :)19:55
djszapioh well19:55
M4rtinKor should every package that uses a not-in-SDK lib_example have it statically compiled inside ?19:56
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djszapithat is the worst idea every :)19:57
M4rtinKthis wasted bandwith & storage space19:57
djszapiI wonder actually how you got to the conclusion :) Sounds really really nasty ;)19:57
M4rtinKand when there is a security issue discovered for the library - good luck finding & fixing all such packages :)19:57
djszapiI do not know how it is relevant19:58
djszapiyour idea brings actually the security issues in...19:59
M4rtinKwell with the current policy, static compilation fro libraries that are not in the SDK is the only possibility, isn't it ?19:59
djszapisay, someone submitted a library to the store, and I need to depend on that since I cannot bring my trusted version...I am kinda in a situation where I /must/ trust.20:00
djszapino, it is not. That is a sad conlusion20:00
djszapiand a bit of insane20:00
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djszapiplease read my example I wrapped up for the KDE Harmattan wiki page :)20:01
djszapiactually static linking is the only option which does not play for Qt.20:02
djszapiwith gpl version for instance20:02
djszapibut at least static linking has all the troubles and that jazz: you basically need to maintain shared and static builds which is well ... insane for kde since even one build type maintenance is a huge time sink :)20:03
luke-jrstatic linking is bad.20:03
M4rtinKwell, of course20:03
M4rtinKso say you want to submit Konqueror to a "Store" without dependency handling20:04
M4rtinKhow would you do it ?20:04
djszapi20:01 < djszapi> please read my example I wrapped up for the KDE Harmattan wiki page :)20:05
M4rtinK ? or something else20:06
djszapithough, it is not any Harmattan specific; we basically do the same for qt apps on Android.20:06
djszapiM4rtinK: something else..20:06
djszapiyou need to read a bit, but you can learn a lot of things: starting with this note of mine:
djszapi -> and here is a practical example of doing this.20:06
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djszapimmm, I have not documented everything, but if you do not like the rpath change trickery, you can just set the ld library path fine inside the desktop file.20:08
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M4rtinKso if I understand this correctly, you take the compiled library files and just add them to your package20:12
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M4rtinKwell, yeah also a possibility20:12
djszapimore or less. It is not that simple, though..20:13
djszapiputting the so into your package is not enough20:13
M4rtinKbut I still see a few issues - binary compatibility, wasted bandwidth/space/RAM due to not sharing with other packages20:14
djszapiof course you share20:14
djszapithat is the whole point20:14
djszapibinary compatibility, eh ?20:15
djszapiactually we are the only with along with debian solved it20:15
djszapiand nobody else cares about this on the market.20:15
M4rtinKyou are including the binaries aren't you ?20:15
djszapiI do include of course.20:15
djszapisince it does not work the other way around anyway :)20:16
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M4rtinKwell if it were a source package it would fail after being rebuild for other architectures than the included binary libraries support IMO20:17
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M4rtinKbut I'm not sure what one actually submits to OVI & similar20:17
djszapiyou do not of course put Mac binary into a linux package.20:18
djszapibut I fail to see the problem to be honest, since you need to rebuild your app on different platforms anyway...20:18
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djszapiM4rtinK: sorry, sauna time, be back in a bit :)20:20
luke-jrM4rtinK: "Stores" suck20:20
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M4rtinKyeah, that's the point :)20:21
luke-jrthat being said, a Linux store, properly designed, would be interesting20:21
luke-jrie, developers submit source, and the store builds binaries for every participating distro, etc20:22
luke-jrdynamically linked using the pkg manager of course20:22
M4rtinK"depends: lib_example >= 1.0" feels righ, including binary files in  a package by hand feels wrong :)20:22
M4rtinKyep, exactly20:22
leinirluke-jr: welcome to Project Bretzn ;)20:23
M4rtinKwell, OBS makes this possible (provided it works as expected) :)20:23
berndhsOBS seems to work fine at the opensuse site, it builds stuff for several distros20:24
M4rtinKIMO apps formeego does this already (without dependency handling so far)20:24
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jonniZogG_laptop: pong20:38
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ajalkaneanyone know what are these kinds of lines in restok.conf:20:52
ajalkaneRecover: +mce::DeviceModeControl +mce::TKLockControl20:52
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ajalkaneWhat's the Recover thingy? I know we can do Requests in aegis.manifest.20:52
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djszapiM4rtinK: apps4meego is not a business thing.20:54
M4rtinKand ? :)20:55
djszapiand do not confuse apps4meego which for the community, and it would not make sense to not support as much as possible.20:56
djszapiM4rtinK: Nokia will obviously not support non-Nokia things for fun and more resource.20:56
djszapiso does Intel not do (Tizen/Qt). I think you fail to respect what Nokia would like to do with their business. I personally understand the point of these app stores, and also a community store. They are way not exclusive, and should never ever be.20:57
berndhsNokia supports many things that are not directly generating revenue20:57
djszapiM4rtinK: back to the technical discussion, I see no problem in putting the shared libraries into the same package.20:58
M4rtinKwell yeah20:58
djszapiM4rtinK: as I said, you are lucky Nokia does not filter that out you did put something into the package ;-)20:59
M4rtinKI just want to distribute my applications to users in a clean and efficient way without being hampered by missing libraries :)21:00
M4rtinKand I find the current system a bit lacking in this regard, that's all :)21:00
djszapibecause you only see community, and you do not see business, that is all :)21:00
M4rtinKwell I'm a community developer after all :)21:01
djszapiyou do not need to refuse business decisions to be a community developer.21:02
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djszapiM4rtinK: anyway, you are not even obligated to use ovi, and you can help to X-Fade with apps4meego, right ? Start it ;-)21:04
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djszapiM4rtinK: I am personally happy long time contributors were interested in discussing the publish story at the KDE Harmattan sprint, and we got something done.21:05
djszapiM4rtinK: you were mentioning the binary compatibility, well that is what I solved in Harmattan and probably no other mobile solutions care about this. :) Adopted the strict debian policies about it in KDE at least.21:07
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djszapiM4rtinK: it took me 13 KB to solve, so no biggie :)21:08
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M4rtinKI plan to submit my applications to every viable repository available - which means both OVI and AFM21:11
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djszapiso do as documented ? :)21:12
M4rtinKthe first in the queue is Mieru, which currently has no external dependencies21:12
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M4rtinKbut modRana would be more difficult, even when using a Qt based GUI21:12
djszapiwhy is it any difficult ?21:12
M4rtinKespeak for TTS and probably also Monav for offline routing in the future21:13
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djszapiwhat is the issue precisely ?21:14
ajalkaneIs AFM a similar source to OVI for installed applications, so that all same credentials are allowed as from OVI installed apps?21:14
djszapithat is why I do not prefer apps4meego for Harmattan, if the package can be put into Oiv.21:15
M4rtinKdjszapi: how to get get both modRana and espeak on the device without a need for user intervention :)21:15
djszapialso, the qa is even pre-mature21:15
djszapi(not offense, it is just that many people put a lot of energy into Ovi)21:15
ajalkaneThat's unfortunate, but understandable. But then AFM must differentiate in some other ways, like supporting dependencies.21:16
ajalkaneAlthough having automatic update notifications for AFM applications is great.21:16
djszapiajalkane: agree, if it does not support dependency it is a fail imho21:16
M4rtinKor not having 10^7 RSS readers :)21:16
M4rtinKso much for QA :)21:16
ajalkanemartink: haha, yeah that's a plus too21:17
djszapiM4rtinK: could you please rephrase (or put more information into) your question ?21:17
M4rtinKdjszapi: lets have two applications - modRana, a navigation system written in Python, thus architecture independent21:18
M4rtinKand Espeak a an utility/library written in C and accessed through CLI21:18
M4rtinKmodRana uses espeak for TTS through CLI21:19
djszapiyeah .. ?21:20
* djszapi is listening21:20
djszapiajalkane: Yes, it is understandable. Otherwise Ovi would abandon itself.21:21
M4rtinKthe user installs modRana21:21
M4rtinKespeak should be installed together with it automatically21:21
M4rtinKsomehow :)21:21
djszapitried my documentation ?21:22
M4rtinKwell, yeah I can just showe the espeak binary to my no longer architecture independent package and it would work21:22
djszapiI mean what is the point ? I thought we discussed this business decision question. :)21:23
M4rtinKwell it seems wrong to bundle software like this21:24
djszapiso everything technical coming from that is effected. As I mentioned a few above there are cons too, not just pros.21:24
djszapino, it is the only way.21:24
ajalkanedjszapi: No, I mean, it's understandable because if Nokia wants to guarantee some sort of security it has to retain control of some features for services it has direct control over.21:24
djszapiajalkane: it has nothing to do with security things and origin source21:25
ajalkanedjszapi: then what is it about?21:25
djszapiabout that, Nokia would not like to abandon itself.21:25
ajalkanedjszapi: You mean they crippled other sources just to ensure people use Ovi and not other sources21:26
djszapisecurity issues would be up to any externals stores and their qa processes.21:26
djszapiajalkane: ok, put it this way to understand a bit better:21:26
djszapiNokia could have said, okay, apps4meego gets all the credentials ever, but the only trusted origin is Nokia (as in words)21:27
djszapithat way would mean to that they would lose many users, right ?21:27
djszapiprobably not all, but vast majority.21:27
djszapiand this is obviously not the purpose of Nokia =)21:28
ajalkaneThey might lose some, but vast majority use just the default apps bundled in the phone21:28
djszapithe statistics show differently though.21:28
djszapiI think Kate Alhola was actually commenting on the opposite.21:28
djszapiand I agree: I mean it makes sense to not abandon yourself to any other app stores.21:29
djszapiif you invested the lot of money and energy.21:29
ajalkaneSure... I can understand that kind of reasons too. But I bet anyone higher up in the hierarchy would claim security reasons instead of what you said. Regardless what is the truth.21:30
djszapino, not at all21:30
ajalkaneThen do you know why we can't develop apps using for example mce::DeviceModeControl credential, it cripples even OVI store compared to competitors?21:31
djszapithat is a simple question, the manager layer refused our proposal for no real reasons.21:32
djszapi"complete open mode proposal" that we did first.21:32
djszapiwe had the technical solution almost in place21:32
djszapiso that is not because of security, that is because of some insane reasons21:32
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ajalkaneI don't even need complete open mode, although I'd want some, but for my application I would want to control Flight Mode and Battery Saving states. Competiting products manage that.21:33
ajalkaneBut Nokia's management is famously crazy so I'm not surprised them shooting down your proposal without any reason21:34
djszapiif you check out my comment on those topics. I said many times here and also on the public bug tracker, I agree.21:34
M4rtinKyay for artificial limitations21:34
ajalkanedjszapi: do you think we, as application developers, can anyway help in that by bringing concrete examples to bug tracker or somewhere to change their minds at least about some of the security policy decisions?21:35
djszapiajalkane: however I know the history of that decision making (ovi source policies that is). Unfortunately, I cannot talk about it21:35
djszapiajalkane: do not think community caught it, but internals were dumb to get it in time... :P21:35
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djszapithe things community caught, we proposed like 1.5-2 years ago :)21:36
ajalkanedjszapi: No I have no doubt many internals caught these things. But I also know how management thinks.21:36
djszapithey think it is not a developer device21:37
ajalkaneThey don't take things seriously until a concrete application can not be realized because their idiotic decisions. Well, many times they won't even then.21:37
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djszapiand if they think, they will think this even if we vomit blood21:37
ajalkaneA consumer device is supposed to run applications done by developers. It's that whole ecosystem bullshit.21:37
djszapiajalkane: we told the use cases, they do not wanna realize certain things21:37
djszapibut it is not Nokia specific, it is the habit of being an owner, decision maker and so on in most cases. :)21:38
ajalkaneOkay... well... management is dumb.21:38
ajalkaneIf only every manager was a former coder, things might be better :)21:39
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ajalkaneOr not... but probably not a whole lot worse either.21:39
ajalkanedjszapi: you might know... if I've put some requests for credentials that aegis/security framework will not grant for my application, where would I see some log information about that?21:42
ajalkaneFor example: I get credential for "Cellular" and "UID::user" and "UID::users", but not for ""mce::DeviceModeControl"21:43
ajalkaneDidn't see anything in syslog21:43
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Almehdi_Does anyone have a clue why this doesn't work: devel-su -c 'gst-launch-0.10 ximagesrc ! videoscale ! videorate ! video/x-raw-rgb,framerate=5/1,width=854,height=480 ! ffmpegcolorspace ! dsph264enc ! avimux ! filesink location=/home/user/MyDocs/Movies/test.avi' as user.. if i golog in as devel-su it works.21:49
Almehdi_'s/golog/log in/'21:50
ajalkaneWow... I got a Recover line into restok.conf with a request entry in aegis manifest21:54
Almehdi_It writes the file but it is 0.00 seconds.. and if run it gives a green screen. If i do devel-su and the run the same command it plays as it should21:54
ajalkaneSo I guess those are something to do with credentials that you can get if you install from OVI, I guess21:54
ajalkaneBut still, mce::DeviceModeControl seems to be totally inaccessible.21:55
ajalkaneSo I guess I'll give up on that for now.21:55
Almehdi_shouldnt "devel-su -c" and log in as devel-su be the same?21:55
ajalkaneGone to Windows, cya later!21:57
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DocScrutinizerAlmehdi_: I could only speculate that devel-su doesn't correctly pass parameters to shell when it execve()s shell22:39
DocScrutinizerafter all devel-su is no alias for shell, but rather a wrapper around it22:40
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* DocScrutinizer could even figure that's again an intentional thing rather than a bug, due to some weird security considerations that normal minds can't even think of22:42
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Almehdi_DocScrutinizer: You wouldn't happen to know a way around it?23:01
Almehdi_I am using it in a shell script23:01
Almehdi_I have tried using adding "exec" and 'aegis-exec -a "GRP::video" -a "GRP::pulse-access"' without success23:03
DocScrutinizersorry, no idea23:05
DocScrutinizerthe correct way was to build a pkg that requests for the needed permissions via aegis manifest, so you wouldn't need devel-su23:07
DocScrutinizerI think, that is. If I'm not mistaken how all this aegis stuff is meant to work23:08
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Almehdi_to bad...23:10
Almehdi_Was hoping to give my n9tweak users a way to record their desktop23:11
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rlinfatiHi, where i can download the firmware for n950 beta 1 or beta 2 ?23:18
Venemorlinfati, why would you want to download old firmware?23:19
DocScrutinizero way to downgrade anyway23:19
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rlinfationly i wanna extract some files23:21
Venemo_N950rlinfati, I don't think you can do that.23:22
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djszapi21:42 < ajalkane> djszapi: you might know... if I've put some requests for credentials that aegis/security framework will not grant for my application, where would I see some log information about that? -> he left, but the answer is command line for instance during the installation23:58
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