IRC log of #harmattan for Friday, 2011-11-25

harbaumah, the n950 is alive again :-)00:03
heikrnenconcratulations harbaum!00:04
harbaumjonni: Thanks for your help!00:04
grigabriel9: 10 € for a snowboard? wow :D00:05
gabriel9i'ts old00:05
gabriel9burton t52 but in really good shape00:05
grihow old is old?00:05
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griI use mine for 9 years now and it still does its job :)00:06
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gabriel9and today i found boots for 35€  northwave freadom00:06
gabriel9i don't mind years, i just need to find out is it good for absolute begginers00:07
griI don't know any difference between beginner boards and others. I would say as long as your feet fit on it it's ok :)00:08
gabriel9this one fits good00:09
b3llI heard iron boots are always great for boarding :-P00:09
griwax it, give em sharp edges and it runs00:09
griDon't try to teach snowboarding yourself, get a trainer :P00:10
gri(if not already done)00:10
b3llyeah, you can seriously mess up your ankle, learn to walk with it first, and then stop00:10
gabriel9i watch on yt :DF00:11
gabriel9here is no trainer00:11
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griare you used to skiing?00:12
gabriel9wehn i was i little i made skis from blinds and it was great00:13
gabriel9and i knew how to skee back then without stripes or anything00:14
gabriel9just stand on that improvised stuff and go00:14
griyeah, that part is much harder on a snowboard :)00:14
gabriel9i cant wait to try it00:15
griyou fall down many more times00:15
gabriel9i got my N9 full of videos :D00:15
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griI have three friends who tried snowboarding without a trainer and failed or hurt themselves :D00:15
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gabriel9i will go slowly00:16
grigabriel9: Which country are you at?00:17
gabriel9first to learn how to stand, then some falling, then how to stoping00:17
gabriel9Republic Serbska00:17
gabriel9part of the Bosnian And Hercegovina00:17
gritoo far from here :)00:17
gabriel9not so far :)00:18
gabriel9my father was in germany00:18
griyeah, but too far for one day skiing00:18
gabriel9that's true00:18
gritry on a small hill00:19
griwith one foot in the binding00:19
griand the other one on the board but not inside00:19
grithat's important for getting out of a lift safely :)00:19
gabriel9yea i imagine that00:19
gabriel9i think it is good sport00:20
griI really like it00:20
grimy favourite sport of the year :)00:21
gabriel9also for summer it is nice to ride byke00:21
gabriel9on the hills00:21
gabriel9sorry for bad eng00:22
griIf I weren't that lazy ... my bike has a motor and has fast acceleration even up the hill :D00:22
gabriel9it is nice00:23
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gabriel9maybe i will come to germany, if there is nice ski tracks00:25
gabriel9they give us visas so we can spend monney :D00:26
gabriel9i was thinking to go on Qt developers days, but i could not get free days from my boss00:27
griwell, we have the alps :)00:27
gabriel9yea you got alps :)00:27
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JackaLXjonni: thanks much for all your help, mate.  I'm back up and running again now.00:51
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Venemohey bradas00:57
JackaLXcrap!  it did it again00:57
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JackaLXI didn't have an original ssh.conf to put back in place so I copy/paste from a web site... the shasum must be wrong (whitespace probably)00:58
JackaLXwhere can I get my hands on /etc/init/ssh.conf from PR1.1?00:59
mgedminJackaLX, just a sec01:08
JackaLXmgedmin: thanks!01:11
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JackaLXmgedmin: awesome! sshd is working again!01:19
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JackaLXI'm blown away by how friendly and helpful you guys are in here.  You all rock!!01:27
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DocScrutinizerThe latest additions to your Nokia Developer Prototype Device Loaning Service include the following phones:01:47
DocScrutinizerNokia Asha 300 (Series 40)Nokia Asha 303 (Series 40)Nokia 603 (Symbian Belle)C2-05 (Series 40)X2-05 (Series 40)X3-02.05 (X3-02 Touch and Type update) (Series 40)N9 (Meego)01:47
DocScrutinizerSee your intranet to request proto loan phones:
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if Nokia is aware of the less-than-3-seconds effect found by IBM, and the fact that Nokia $random_page needs like 45s to download and render on a standard PC with standard DSL(!) internet connection01:55
DocScrutinizer@nokia: nobody, literally noone give a flying f*ck about your wallpapers and nifty flash animations when it needs >5s to load and render the page01:58
ieatlinti got that same email... but the DDP page for my (individual) launchpad membership is always empty01:58
ieatlintonly time i've ever seen something on it was for the n95001:58
DocScrutinizersame here, F U Nokia01:58
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* DocScrutinizer giggles on perspective to develop and twat Nokia's future SoCs for Lumia crap02:02
DocScrutinizertwat?? wtf? test02:02
JackaLXwindows phone... twat... yeah I see the correlation there :-P02:03
ieatlinttwat that shit for nokia02:04
DocScrutinizer@Nokia: heard your future devices ate using ST-E APE SoC. At least for WinCrap. Well, I'm still available for 6 days, if you offer better contract than ST-E02:04
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: @Nokia: heard your future devices are using ST-E APE SoC. At least for WinCrap. Well, I'm still available for 6 days, if you offer better contract than ST-E02:04
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* DocScrutinizer pokes konttori02:08
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DocScrutinizerkonttori; briliant schematics proofreader and system-architect sparrings partner to hire. No resentiments to fly 10h 5 times a month. Record to spot bugs. Countdown running - 6 days left02:10
DocScrutinizer( I know s02:12
DocScrutinizerposts like "F U Nokia" are no good reference. If you mind you're not ready for me ;-D)02:12
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SputDocScrutinizer: you sound frustrated.02:32
DocScrutinizerI am02:32
Sputso it's just not me being drunk02:32
DocScrutinizerFOSS is a nasty landscape to make your living02:32
DocScrutinizerand I'm facing a contract as employee when I was freelancer for 30 years now02:33
* Sput is actually glad being an employee02:34
Sput12 years of university with limited contracts all the time was enough for me02:34
DocScrutinizersorry when I don't sound extatic02:34
Sputwell, seems like people always want what they don't have :)02:34
SputI got tired fighting for a new contract every few months02:35
DocScrutinizeryeah, but doing the bend-over isn't fun either02:36
Sputwho makes you bend over? Nokia?02:36
Sputwhat's st-e?02:37
DocScrutinizerstmicro - ericsson02:37
Sputthey working for Lumia?02:37
SputI see02:37
Sputwell, I guess Nokia proper is still hiring capable developers not working on Lumia :)02:37
DocScrutinizerI heard Lumiy is using an integrated APE+gsm-stack arch02:38
Sputand at least in Ulm, I must say they provide quite good working conditions02:38
Sputdunno, I don't do windows02:38
Sputand I don't intend to02:38
DocScrutinizerI'm rather going to work 4 outa 7 weeks in taipei or tampere, than to contract in Ulm02:39
Sputwhy that?02:39
DocScrutinizerno way I move, I'm an old fart who loves his tree he looks from bathroom window every morning02:40
Sputah, so just because you want to stay, not because of the location02:40
Sputwell, I can sort of understand that02:40
Sputin the end I still applied and moved to Ulm because of the opportunity, but of course it's only 200km from my hometown02:40
DocScrutinizerI'm an IT guy, 25 years ago we invented remote workstations02:40
Sputwhere are you now? finland?02:41
Sput25 years ago i started to discover girls :)02:41
DocScrutinizerD, 49.45, 11.3002:41
Sputtoo not sober to parse this02:41
DocScrutinizer~weather EDDN02:41
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2011.11.25 0020 UTC; Dew Point: 30 F (-1 C); Pressure (altimeter): 30.45 in. Hg (1031 hPa); Relative Humidity: 100%; Sky conditions: overcast; Temperature: 30 F (-1 C); Visibility: 2 mile(s); Weather: Mist; Wind: from the SE (130 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 KT)02:42
Sputbut... you could commute to Ulm :)02:42
Sputcertainly easier than to Tampere02:42
DocScrutinizersure I could, 4 out of 7 weeks02:42
Sput~weather EDTK02:42
infobotI can't find station code "EDTK" (see or for ICAO locations codes).02:42
Sputdid they finally kill the code from the database02:43
DocScrutinizerooh they closed some military base at Ulm?02:43
Sputnah not Ulm02:43
SputI guess this one still works02:44
Sput~weather EDSB02:44
infobotKarlsruhe, Baden Wurttemberg, Germany; (EDSB) 48-46-43N 008-04-47E; last updated: 2011.11.24 2220 UTC; Dew Point: 32 F (0 C); Pressure (altimeter): 30.47 in. Hg (1032 hPa); Relative Humidity: 93%; Sky conditions: overcast; Temperature: 33 F (1 C); Visibility: 2 mile(s); Weather: Mist; Wind: Variable at 3 MPH (3 KT)02:44
Sputclose enough02:44
SputEDTK used to be Karlsruhe airfield02:44
SputEDSB is Baden-Baden02:44
Sputwell, Söllingen02:44
SputI made my glider plane license at EDTK :/02:45
DocScrutinizerI'm used to get wages that allow me to take a plane home and back to $LOCATION 2 times a month02:45
Sputbut they closed it around 200502:45
Sputwell, I can afford a BC100, that's sufficient for me :)02:46
SputI'm sort of a train guy02:46
Sputdid around 100 kkm every year the past 3 years02:46
DocScrutinizertrain is fine for <200km02:46
Sputitym 2000 km :)02:47
SputI refuse to take planes inside Germany or even central Europe02:47
Sputtoo much wasted time02:47
Sputand I love flying really02:47
DocScrutinizerwhen my team was in TPE I took the plane every 5 weeks, to stay 4 weeks (or 6..7 sometimes) in lovely taiwan02:47
Sputwell, I'm still hoping Nokia is gonna send me $somewhere at some point :P02:48
Sputlike, Oulo in winter02:48
DocScrutinizer5 weeks @home and doing remote and telco, and 4 weeks at site pushing things physically worked kinda fine02:48
SpeedEvil np: Chris Reah - Road to hell02:48
Sputin any case, working at the Ulm location is fun02:49
Sputeven though it's not Karlsruhe02:49
Sputnice people, interesting project, an employer who seems to care02:49
* SpeedEvil wonders where he knows that name from.02:49
SpeedEvilOh - openstreetmap02:50
DocScrutinizeralas the pinguins get more narrow-minded on that, not allowing this kinda schedule anymore02:50
Sputwe're finally introducing trust-based working times and 20% homeoffice next year02:50
Sputwe get our own schema? *click*02:51
* DocScrutinizer yawns and moans a bit02:51
DocScrutinizerit's so amazingly hard to find some entity with money interested in a schamtics-review and general architecture wizard02:52
Sputwhy is this called "Karlsruhe Schema"?02:52
Sputit's not like we're special02:52
SputDocScrutinizer: well, as a die-hard C++ coder with around 7 years of Qt experience under my belt, my choice of workplace came somewhat natural :)02:53
DocScrutinizerI looked at GTA04 schematics for ~3 hours and found at least 15 bugs02:53
SpeedEvilSput: I think the guy that designed it implemented it there.02:53
SpeedEvilSput: err02:54
SpeedEvillived there02:54
SputSpeedEvil: yeah, sounds like it02:54
Sputnice city, really02:54
SputI didn't intend to move away02:54
Sputbut somehow, working at Nokia Ulm is worth it02:54
SpeedEvilOSM is popular in germany for some reason.02:54
Sput(I'm keeping my old appartment for the time being, to have some fun on weekends etc)02:54
DocScrutinizertricking your mind02:55
DocScrutinizerI got like 4 friends to have a beer together here where I live - I have zero in Ulm or elsewhere02:56
Sputyou mean Nürnberg?02:56
Sputdunno, I already found people to have beer with in Ulm02:56
Sputnice colleagues etc02:57
Sputin any case, I do understand the reasoning to stay at home02:57
DocScrutinizertakes me 5 years to find a *friend*02:57
SputI would've preferred to stay in Karlsruhe02:57
Sputbut there's no way to get such a perfect job here than I have now02:57
Sputand tbh, I can afford to go back to Karlsruhe frequently to meet my old friends02:57
Sputand even keeping my appartment to have a place to stay on the weekends :)02:58
DocScrutinizertricking your mind02:58
DocScrutinizerevaluate what's worthy and what's not, in your life02:58
Sputyeah, that's what one should always do02:59
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Sputbeen traveling between Frankfurt and Karlsruhe 4-5 times a week for the past 3 years02:59
SputI can stand traveling between Ulm and Karlsruhe twice a week :)02:59
DocScrutinizerI'd not live in a hotel room in a town 60km away, to come back to my friends and home posse every 6 weeks for a weekend02:59
Sputonly 60 km?03:00
Sputthat's like half an hour by car03:00
DocScrutinizerno matter how far03:00
Sputyou could even live in N03:00
Sputand work in UL :)03:00
DocScrutinizerduh, isn't that like 3h with train?03:00
Sputdunno how the connections are between N and UL03:00
Sputbetween KA and UL, it's 1:5003:00
Sputthat's short enough to go to Ulm on Monday morning and be back in KA on Thursday evening early enough to still be able to do something03:01
Sputthat's a small price to pay for having a job that is exactly what you want to do for a living03:01
DocScrutinizeryeah, for 4 days that's ok. for 5/7 - no way03:02
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Sputyeah, I wouldn't want to stay in Ulm all week, I guess03:02
Sputmaybe that'll change03:02
Sputbut for for the time being, I am keeping both appartments03:03
Sputand I really don't mind train travel :)03:03
DocScrutinizertrain is nice - 2 or 4 times a week03:03
DocScrutinizeror for 3 months 5/703:03
Sputas I said, been commuting between KA and F for three years :)03:04
Sputso now that I switched to Ulm, I'll spend less time in trains03:04
DocScrutinizerI owked in a town 130km away and I took train to go there every morning and back home every evening03:04
Sputbut really, I mean if I got a Qt-related, decently paid job in KA, I'd switch in a jiffy03:05
Sputbut if the choice is "working for Nokia on a cool project in Ulm" and "working for 1&1 in KA"...03:05
DocScrutinizerI'd switch for a job in Singapore or Taipei or Tokyo that alows me to do 35..50% remote from at home03:06
Sputwith paid travel :)03:06
SputI wouldn't want to spend 48 hourse per month in a plane03:07
DocScrutinizermeh, the jobs I do are way beyond where a few airline tickets really matter03:07
Sputgood   fp03:08
Sputgood for you03:08
DocScrutinizerneither do 48h/month editing shit in an airplane03:08
SputI lost my urge for leaving Germany in the few years I lived in the States :)03:08
DocScrutinizerwell, OM spoiled me regarding that03:09
Sputthat said, I wouldn't mind going back to Asia for a couple weeks for work/vacation/conference03:09
Sputbut living there? nah03:09
SputI prefer being close to KA :)03:09
DocScrutinizerliving there? no way never03:09
Sputin the end, I guess what you do for a living really matters03:10
DocScrutinizermaybe I can travel a bit for ST-E03:10
Sputand what I'm going now in Ulm is exactly what I wanted to do for the past 5 years03:10
Sputand I'm getting paid for it for a chang e:)03:10
DocScrutinizerI wish I got paid for all my chanop and whatnot 1h/week "jobs"03:11
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DocScrutinizerI could make a living from it03:11
Sputaah well03:12
DocScrutinizerbut that's when I said "FOSS is a tough place to make a living"03:12
SputI wish such things would only take 1h/week :)03:12
DocScrutinizerI easily sum up to 30h/week just for all those voluntary duties03:13
DocScrutinizerand while they are all fun, none of them buys my bagels03:14
DocScrutinizerthe "support my work (donations)" subscript on my tmo posts is just a joke03:14
DocScrutinizerso I'm going to join the troops of employment slavery next week :-S03:15
DocScrutinizerat last the topic is exciting: LTE modem modules03:16
DocScrutinizerand with a bit of luck, I can qualify for the "big problem solver for the customers" and travel a bit03:17
DocScrutinizerheard Nokia is using ST-E SOCs now for their winphones03:18
DocScrutinizerso if Nokia doesn't want to hire me, they maybe see me as representative of their SOC manufactirer ;-D03:19
SpeedEvilI guess you could try to push for a decent engineering mode info at least. :)03:22
DocScrutinizerI probably could and for sure will try03:23
DocScrutinizerIt's a pity and a shame Nokia had decent engineering mode monitor in all their phones up to at least 320003:25
DocScrutinizerbut not any more on BB5 (or nobody knows how to use it)03:25
DocScrutinizerfor jonwil:
DocScrutinizer>> Nokia 3210, 3310, 3410, 5110, 5130, 6110, 6130, 6150, 6210, 7110, 8210, 8850, 8890 mit FBUS<<03:33
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DocScrutinizerif it's too obfuscated for you: the idea is you can get a reading of distance to your serving Base Transceiver Station that is accurate to 550m. Making other nearby BTS yoru serving BTS you get same distnace value for them as well. And the icing on top is German O2 offers exact geographic locations of their BTS for free, by sending Gaus-Krueger coords on cell broadcast SMS channel 22103:42
DocScrutinizerfor other networks you need to resort to a (online) database to map Cell-ID to geographic location03:43
DocScrutinizermeans: with just two BTS and their readings for TimeAdvance aka distance phone-tower, you get a location as precise as a square (or "parallelogram") with size 550m*550m03:46
DocScrutinizera third BTS will add another stripe of 550m width going across that map, and statistically ruling out 50% of the original 550*550 square03:48
* SpeedEvil tries to recall what a spherical geometry parallelogram is called.03:48
DocScrutinizera ring segment with concentrical circle segments as boundaries?03:49
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DocScrutinizerthe intersection area of two rings03:50
DocScrutinizerfunny enough there are two areas for two BTS aka circle centers03:51
DocScrutinizerpretty much same story as for GPS03:51
DocScrutinizerfor 3 rings your phone is in the intersection ara of 3 rings, each with a "thickness" of 550m03:53
DocScrutinizers/rings/serving BTS/03:53
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: for 3 serving BTS your phone is in the intersection ara of 3 rings, each with a "thickness" of 550m03:53
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DocScrutinizerthe mega annoyance is neither Nokia nor any other modem manufacturer I know of is offering access to these functions nowadays, though they happily use them for their closed proprietary location aware services03:55
DocScrutinizeroptimum you can get is TA aka distance to your serving BTS, and with a lot of luck you even get a list of neighbour cells but without any TA03:57
DocScrutinizerforced reselection probably is already deemed too invasive and hackerish03:58
DocScrutinizeryou could use a directional GSM antenna to make the C1/C2 criteria cause a "voluntarily" reselection to a "remote" neighbour cell03:59
SpeedEvilOr TA of nearby BTSs03:59
SpeedEvilrecently associated03:59
SpeedEvilWhich isn't quite useless03:59
DocScrutinizer:nod: 99.5% of "experts" think they can use signal strength for this - not realizing signal strength is a random generator but no metric for the distance to BTS04:00
SpeedEvilIt's not wholly useless.04:01
SpeedEvilAt best it's +10dB -80dB or so04:01
DocScrutinizermeans you could see worse signal strength standing 50m from the tower than you get on a 10km distant hill04:02
DocScrutinizerfigure parking decks etc04:03
DocScrutinizerfigure huge buildings causing shadowing04:03
DocScrutinizernot even to start with interference between direct signal and alternative path04:04
SpeedEvilRelative timings may be fun.04:06
SpeedEvilBut those are probably not broadcast.04:06
DocScrutinizerell, seems there are ways to get TA value of serving cell from BB5 modem, but alas no way to force modem to "register" with a particular BTS and ignore the signal strength criteria C1/C2 for doing so04:06
SpeedEvilI mean - I assume there are 'beacon' packets from other cells - that are received by the modem when logged into a tower. It should in principle be possible to time these packets.04:07
SpeedEvilSo you know the relative time, even though you do not know the time delay.04:08
DocScrutinizerso all you can do is track all info you can get, and hope for "natural" reselects/handovers04:08
SpeedEvilIf you know the relative time delay - even if not the absolute time delay - you can work out position.04:08
SpeedEvilIf you know, or can find out the real relative time delay of transmissions of the other towers beacon packets.04:09
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: that's what carriers do to "triangulate" your position, they sync all BTS paces to a central time source, probably GPS04:09
SpeedEvilI know.04:10
SpeedEvilI mean on phone.04:10
DocScrutinizeryes, understood04:10
DocScrutinizerbut then your modem has no concept of syncing/evaluating time delay of several BTS or even one BTS to *any* refernce04:11
SpeedEvilSure. But it receives the packets.04:11
SpeedEvilThe packets have a time of arrival, and a time of transmission.04:11
DocScrutinizeryes, but it has no time reference04:11
SpeedEvilEven if they have no TA field.04:11
SpeedEvilYou'd need some external reference, yes.04:12
DocScrutinizerit never has any04:12
SpeedEvilBut for example, if they don't drift, as they're all GPS locked, this might just work too.04:12
SpeedEvilI know.04:12
SpeedEvilAnyway - night!04:13
DocScrutinizeryou don't see time of arrival from "outside" the modem04:13
DocScrutinizernot even modem itself has any notion of "time of arrival"04:14
DocScrutinizeras there's no absolute time reference in the modem that was exact enough for that stuff04:14
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DocScrutinizeronly time reference in GSM-transceiver is the pace broadcasted by serving cell via broadcast channel. Modem gets assigned a time slot and sends in that time slot, BTS notices the signal coming in late and orders some TimeAdvance to the particular modem so the signal falls exactly into the time slot despite the delay introduced by RF speed-of-light travel delay04:18
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DocScrutinizerBTS supported triangulation is way easier to implement: each BTS syncs its own broadcaset timeslice pace to GPS global time. Then 3 BTS listen to a) GPS as seen locally  b) both other BTS pace broadcast as seen locally c) the transmission of the particular mobile phone. Each of the 3 BTS mixes all 3 signals into one record that represents the timing between those 3 signals, and sends this record to a evaluating server $somewhere. The04:28
DocScrutinizerserver has 3 records with 9 values and can solve the equation and get the phone's position to an accuracy of +-10m04:28
DocScrutinizerfew BTS are equipped with the needed equipment I am told04:31
DocScrutinizerthey neither sync own pacemaker broadcast to GPS nor _could_ they listen to neighbour BTS signals04:32
DocScrutinizerso in the end usually BTS have no time reference similar to situation on mobile04:33
DocScrutinizerand "triangulation" anybody can get for your device is as exact as "in 120° sector 2 of base station 32145"04:35
DocScrutinizeroften not even the sector is known04:35
DocScrutinizerO2 broadcasts 10m different positions for each of the sectors of a BTS, to alow mobiles to distinguish them04:37
DocScrutinizerseems very rarely you even got 4 90° sectors rather than 2 120° sectors04:38
DocScrutinizer3 120°04:39
DocScrutinizerI never heard of BTS without sectors04:39
DocScrutinizerthe fun bit is more that obviously they always use same CID for all sectors of one BTS, while you as well could think of these sectors as independent BTS04:41
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DocScrutinizerI wonder who cares04:51
* DocScrutinizer makes a notice to consider "STFU" after 5 lines of posts without response04:52
JackaLXok, I seriously do not get this aegis stuff.  It's gotta be the most evil and horrible thing I've ever seen in my life04:53
DocScrutinizercongrats, welcome to the club, you're not alone :-D04:54
JackaLXthen I guess there's no point in me bitching because you've heard it all before, yeah?04:55
JackaLXAll I wanna do is have a script start after boot that sed's a file in $HOME04:57
DocScrutinizerambitious project - thanks aegis ;-D05:00
JackaLXIs there any other way, aside from mucking about in /etc/init/apps, for user to have things auto-start on boot?05:00
JackaLXLike... can I have a cron at least?05:00
DocScrutinizerthere's no cron05:01
DocScrutinizerthere's alarmd05:01
DocScrutinizerwhich will gice you the benefit of even booting up your device when a scheduled event expires05:02
JackaLXhmm, that sounds interesting05:02
DocScrutinizerI heard user can advice alarmd to start a job at schedule - with root permissions ;-P05:03
JackaLXwell in my world having root perms can be very handy, but I've found in Nokia-Fantasy-World it is more of a hindrance than a help05:05
DocScrutinizerroot has NO special rights under aegis, it seems. Can't even write to ~user/05:06
DocScrutinizerinsane rationale, as root quite easily can su - user05:07
JackaLXI'm trying to find this alarmd thingy05:08
JackaLXdo you know where they've hidden it?05:09
JackaLXnot in the $PATH anywhere05:10
DocScrutinizer(su - user) but don't worry, I think with next version of aegis policies Nokia platsec tem will fix the issue, so root can't become user anymore, while user still can become root   X-P05:11
DocScrutinizer(alarmd) it's a lib05:11
DocScrutinizerthere's a awesome user interface to it - on fremantle05:12
DocScrutinizercalled alarmed05:12
JackaLXhaha, I just found a couple things in /etc/cron.daily.  Looks like somebody was at least thinking about giving us a cron05:12
JackaLXhere's a thought... why not just bung my script in ~/.profile05:20
JackaLXyes!  that did it!05:26
JackaLXthanks for helping me think it through, mate.05:28
JackaLXthere's a gazillion instances of the damn script running05:30
JackaLXmore thinking's needed, but not right now.  have better things to occupy myself with05:31
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heeeeguahi guys...08:16
heeeeguaanyone now free to help me?!08:16
heeeeguaabout the barcode08:17
heeeeguaunder the harmattan08:17
heeeeguaI just want to know whether if the harmatten or maybe later's version have the feature to recognize the barcode.08:18
heeeeguaor maybe there is a lib can give me the way to implement the same feature08:19
heeeeguaare there someone now are free?!08:20
dm8tbras I said already on #meego08:20
dm8tbrthere is someone in here interested in implementing barcode/qr-code functionality08:20
dm8tbrAND: PLEASE grow some PATIENCE, thanks08:20
heeeeguadm8tbr....see you again...haha08:21
dm8tbrpeople in europe just start waking up. it can still take an hour or two before someone answers. so lean back and watch the channel.08:21
dm8tbror discover the channel logs mentioned in the topic08:22
heeeeguahaha.....dm8tbr...which country are you come from.08:22
dm8tbrI hear there is a search function08:22
heeeeguaWhy didn't you are now on bed.08:23
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dm8tbrwhere I live it's the EET timezone, ergo time to go to work. BBL08:24
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heeeeguahi guys.....09:46
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heeeeguaanyone now free to help me?!09:46
heeeeguaabout the barcode recognition09:46
heeeeguaunder the harmattan maybe09:47
SpeedEvilHe does barcodey stuff.09:47
heeeeguaI just want to know whether if the harmatten or maybe later's Meego version have the feature to recognize the barcode.09:47
heeeeguaor maybe there is a lib can give me the way to implement the same feature.09:48
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heeeeguazbar code09:48
heeeeguaI have already donwload it...and tried to cross-complie it09:49
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heeeeguabut the failure as the result09:49
heeeeguahi SpeedEvil..09:49
heeeeguayou know have other some success example or maybe demo09:50
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heeeeguathe corresponding readme is not so detail.09:51
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SpeedEvilSee mbarcode, for an example under freemantle.09:51
heeeeguaso i didn't kown how to work on it09:51
SpeedEvilWhat are you hoping to do?09:51
heeeeguayeah..i know mbarcode .baseded on the zbarcode09:51
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heeeeguabut i want know the mbarcode can work well under the meego?!09:52
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heeeeguaI just want to prot the zbar into the meego device09:52
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heeeeguaand do other some relevant works..09:53
SpeedEvilDo you want a command-line app that recognises barcodes from a PNG it's fed?09:53
heeeeguasuch as scan barcode....09:53
SpeedEvilBecause this is going to be very easy.09:53
SpeedEvilOr do you want a nice video app with live-view, that automatically recognises the barcode, and goes beep - because this will be very hard.09:53
SpeedEvilEspecially if you can't work out why a library won't compile.09:54
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SageI'm unable to flash the N950 any ideas what is wrong:
SpeedEvilIt's something to do with blacklisting a module.10:53
SpeedEvilI should remember, but I've decided not to do any thinking today.10:53
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psycho_oreosSage, what is wrong is that you own N950 ;) </lame_joke>11:01
StskeepsSage: modprobe -r phonet and cdc_modem11:02
psycho_oreosshould blacklist them too11:02
fluxsage, do you run virtualbox or vmware?11:03
fluxoh, maybe stskeeps' advice already worked11:04
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hiemanshublacklist cdc_phonet11:07
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xarcass~seen wazd11:11
infobotwazd <> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 36d 11h 29m 33s ago, saying: 'Milhouse: easter egg for geeks? :)'.11:11
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ZogGanyone played with oauth on harmattan?11:17
ZogGi wonder what libs it's better to use11:17
heeeeguayou know a lib11:17
heeeeguathat's fine11:18
ZogGi found this one and liboauth11:18
ZogGok i would try it11:19
ZogGjust want to make some app11:19
heeeeguaWe have ever implemented a OAuth lib with Qt...but it's belong business product11:19
ZogGthe next step would be to solve QT SDK installation11:20
ZogGheeeegua, can you explaine last sentence, didn't get you11:20
heeeeguatry to install the QTSDK,,that's very easy..11:20
ZogGheeeegua, not really, simulator depends on libpng-1.2 and i have 1.5 =)11:20
heeeeguaI know nokia have already put the QtSDK1.411:21
ZogGi think i would use liboauth btw, as i want to make app console only at start and than to make a gui for it11:21
ZogGheeeegua, i'll check it11:22
ZogGdo we have jansson port for harmattan?11:22
heeeeguathat maybe easy to do...just follow the OAuth's rule.11:22
heeeeguathree steps.11:22
ZogGheeeegua what do you mean11:23
heeeeguaYou just want to use the OAuth ....just a console11:23
heeeeguaI means...11:24
heeeeguaYou can follow the OAuth's rule...11:24
ZogGi'm making kinda like flickr and other image apps, but for other service using oauth1a11:24
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ZogGfior now i finished anonymous only upload, but than no galleries and other things11:25
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tabaskoI would like to remove youtube bookmark from appgrid (cutetube rocks)11:26
tabaskoI tried to search packages related to youtube, but they all seems to be related to uploading from gallery or so11:27
ZogGtabasko i don't think you can, maybe if only you delete it manualy via root11:27
ZogGbut still it mostly in harmattan meta package11:27
tabaskoZogG, Im ready to do that :P11:27
heeeeguaanyonw know?!how to implement the feature under the harmattan with the zbar.11:27
ZogGtabasko, than search for the right app name and apt-get remove or what si the comand11:27
ZogGheeeegua, what do you mean?11:28
heeeeguaI means...I have an issue under the harmattan..11:28
tabaskomaybe I leave it alone, I hope next update with folders is coming soon. Its prettu hard to find anything especially when there is useless icons too11:29
heeeeguaabout how to implement a functionality with zbar11:29
heeeeguazbar is a lib for barcode recognition.11:29
heeeeguaAnyone have ever tried it?!11:29
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tabaskohmm, does enabling developer-mode consume more space or resources?11:32
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SpeedEvilA tiny bit.11:32
tabaskoI mean is there more debugging in logs or more daemons/scripts running11:33
SpeedEvilDue to extra packages installed - 20M?11:33
tabaskoI can live with that11:33
SpeedEvilGenerally nothing significant.11:33
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tabaskoit would be fun if there was some custom apt repos for things like nethack and some usefull apps :)11:35
tabaskolike slurm, or bitlbee11:35
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SageStskeeps: didn't help rmmoding those11:53
Stskeepstry blacklist then11:53
SMarekHi, what is now supported way to turning QWidget applications to portrait? I have N950 with 39-5 FW, and it's not taking any effect11:53
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SageStskeeps: blacklisted the cdc_phonet and didn't help11:55
fluxsage, and you're not running virtualbox/vmware?11:56
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Sageflux: I have virtual box installed, but not running on that no.11:56
fluxsage, ok, shouldn't be the problem then11:56
Sageit started to work after adding phonet to blacklist as well11:57
Sagecdc_phonet wasn't enough11:57
Sageat least it says earasing now11:57
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Sageflux, Stskeeps: any idea what "bb5_rdc_cert_read failed" means?
StskeepsSage: do you have security lock on there?12:14
SageI had one yes, I though I disabled it though. But maybe not then?12:15
Sagethe question now is what to do next. it doesn't boot to harmattan and I can't flash it :)12:17
Stskeepserase mmc?12:17
SageStskeeps: it did that already with ocf see pastie12:18
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StskeepsSage: try again with flash12:19
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lardmanheeeegua: sorry for the slow response12:51
lardmangot distracted by booting Nemo on Galaxy Tab, should have been testing mBarcode12:52
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jonniSage: usually bb5 fails come if image's crc/signature checksum doesnt match, or when trying to downgrade firmware. so .bin file might be corrupted, then redownloading usually helps.12:56
jonnigot my inscribed 64GB N9  today, happy happy joy joy... just downloading the update to PR1.1 and then adding über develsh.13:06
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lardmanjonni: inscribed?13:23
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jonnilardman: internals that were involved with harmattan got a device with their firstname and surname inscribed on the side .13:39
jonnijust noticed that newest meego-terminal now supports copy/paste, pretty nice13:39
andre__"no reselling"? :P13:39
leinirandre__: ...but why would you?!13:40
andre__maybe because I'm afraid that I have a big hardware cemetery here in 20 years ;-)13:41
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SMarekPlease, when creating Menu in QML, what is it's default height? Thanks13:49
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lardmanjonni: ah ok, cool :)14:22
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vadimq_hmm, is it normal for the N9 to take ages to boot on the first use?15:07
leinirOn first use it does take a while, yeah, or at least can do :)15:09
vadimq_what does it spend so much time on?15:10
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cos^setup is examining your phone15:17
vadimq_But seriously, I'm a bit curious, as I do intend to try to mess with it quite a bit15:18
psycho_oreosand calling home to nokia and informing them that you have activated your one-and-only-device15:18
vadimq_that would be difficult since there's no sim card in it, and no open wifi networks around15:19
psycho_oreosthat could be why its taking awhile, because of no SIM card ;)15:19
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vadimq_well, I figured it should be usable without one, just have no network connection. At least that worked for the other phones I had15:24
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fralsyou dont need a sim for it to boot up no :p15:37
vadimq_well, it's been spinning this thingy for at least half an hour now15:38
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fralsthat sounds like something went wrong15:38
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vadimq_I did get the language selection screen, after which it went back to the spinning15:39
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RST38hBTW, what is the story with for-meego application manager? are we going to see any non-trivial applications there?15:59
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ZogG_laptopany one can tell if it's okay to use oath in open source?16:19
ZogG_laptopas i would use open source i need to use my keys in it16:24
leinirright, in that case, no problem at all - what makes you think there's an issue with oauth and open source? :)16:24
ZogG_laptopas they are the part of my app16:24
fralsusually service providers that you connect to with oauth requires you to not disclose the application id/key16:24
ZogG_laptopfrals: that's the problem16:25
ZogG_laptopif my app would be opensource the key would be in it16:25
ZogG_laptopor i'm missing something16:25
leinirthat, i suspect, would depend on interpretation16:25
fluxeven if it were closed, wouldn't someone be able to reverse engineer the id from your application?16:25
ZogG_laptopflux: no idea16:25
fralsjust blank out the appid when you commit and its fine16:26
leinirflux: exactly16:26
ZogG_laptopfrals: but when i release the app as deb with src?16:26
fralsleave a comment where the person can get their own at
fralswell, then anyone can get it ;)16:26
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fralseither way unless someone abuses your key its unlikely to be a problem16:26
ZogG_laptopfrals: as i understand it's used to authorise app only16:27
ZogG_laptopand thanu get user keys16:27
ZogG_laptopfrals: i just want to make it right from the begining =)16:27
fralsyes, and the service will see any requests using your id/key as coming from your app, and if someone abuses it its your app that wont have access anymore ;)16:27
ZogG_laptopfrals: that's the proble as well16:28
fluxzogg_laptop, what do you need to use your oauth tokens for?16:28
ZogG_laptopflux app for imgur i'm writting16:28
thpso, is it still possible in PR1.1 to run binaries on the device without putting them in a .deb first? is there a wiki page with the necessary aegis commands?16:28
fluxzogg_laptop, so it would be imgur credentials in the application?16:29
fluxzogg_laptop, I'm afraid there's no avoiding that someone would be able to get those credentials somehow..16:29
ZogG_laptopflux: right16:29
fluxexcept to hope that nobody will try to get them ;)16:29
fluxis it difficult to get credentials? in other words, could the application user get her own credentials easiliy?16:30
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pabs3sounds like oauth is broken by design?16:31
fluxpabs3, how would you improve it?16:31
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fluxthe only possibility to fix that would be have encrypted+signed packages in the ovi store, that contain the credential16:31
fluxand upon installation they would decrypt such credentials into aegis secure storage16:31
pabs3dunno, but embedding keys in apps is just broken16:32
fluxwell, I don't think that's oauth's fault16:32
fluxI don't know if ovi store or n9 provide such security facilities..16:32
ZogG_laptopno the problem is not that16:33
ZogG_laptopthe user creditals are different anyway16:34
ZogG_laptopand you need to prove app from account16:34
ZogG_laptopthe problem in publishing my keys that anyone can use other app as "my app"16:34
ZogG_laptopi mean imgur would see it like my app if someone uses my creditals16:35
fluxso there needs to be two sets of authorization for imgur? one for user, one for app?16:35
ZogG_laptopand it's not right16:35
ZogG_laptopflux: as far as i understand that16:35
fluxwell, it just needs to be understood that someone CAN steal them, no matter what16:35
ZogG_laptopi have two keys16:35
fluxthen you update your keys and upgrade the versions16:35
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ZogG_laptopauthorization and consumer keys16:36
fluxand then imgur can ban the previous key16:36
ZogG_laptopand with them thru api i get keys per user16:36
fluxperhaps hiding them this time a little bit better ;)16:36
artemmahmm, I thought that having some sort of client_secret + user specific info is kind'of standard16:36
ZogG_laptopflux: it would breake all the idea of open source i think =)16:36
fluxthere was this open source game that does something similar16:37
fluxzogg_laptop, are you bound by a GPL license?16:37
fluxif not, it's your software, protect it as you want ;)16:37
ZogG_laptopflux: no, it's my appp, i can use it as closed source as well16:37
ZogG_laptopbut i want to make it opensource coz i believer =)16:38
fluxzogg_laptop, maybe you could keep the parts related to key hiding.. hidden16:38
fluxor support multiple authentication mechanisms, and provide imgur/oauth with a plugin!16:38
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ZogG_laptopwhat do you mean by last one16:38
ZogG_laptopi want to ask khertan but he is not around anymore16:39
ZogG_laptopbtw where is he?16:39
ZogG_laptopartemma: it is the standart, but how it would help me16:39
artemmayeah, probably I missed to much of the conversation and my sugegstion was irrelevant16:40
fluxzogg_laptop, I think the best you can do is to have a form in your website that creates keys for your app16:40
fluxzogg_laptop, and that form would be programmatically accessed by your imgur client16:40
fluxzogg_laptop, and that form would also require the user to solve a captcha16:40
fluxthis way you can yourself monitor for suspicious activity!16:40
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fluxof course, people could solve them as well, but at least they would be only be able to create a few keys, until your limitation algorithm reacts. perhaps.16:41
flux(I meant by that: people could write the program to retrieve the captchas and solve them manually to retrieve the keys)16:42
fluxthere was this one open source space (?) game that puts out executables with security features to prevent cheating on their servers. that is, only authorized clients can play on certain servers.16:43
fluxlast time I heard it was working pretty well.16:43
ZogG_laptopflux: so it would make no sense in using oauth16:44
fluxperhaps not, indeed16:44
fluxzogg_laptop, btw, it's great to hear that you're doing such a sharing plugin (it is going to be integrated with the rest of the system, right?), because I've always wanted an scp/sftp-client for sharing images, and your client should be easy enough to modify to do just that ;)16:44
flux(or perhaps even using http on my custom server instead of imgur's)16:44
fluxzogg_laptop, but, you know what? if oauth if the fastest way to make your application work, perhaps you can just use that, and if problems arise later, use other approaches16:45
fluxif the -> is the16:45
ZogG_laptopflux: that would be easier, you can use mine code already, though it's not polished16:45
fluxzogg_laptop, have you chosen a name for the app, btw?16:46
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ZogG_laptopas i want to add gui and than to add the things, and than to start polishing code, as for now it's just main function doing everything and what i get is url of img and no other data16:46
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ZogG_laptopflux: n9imgur would right for now16:46
fluxzogg_laptop, I shall try to keep that in mind, so I'll find it when it's more close to completion ;)16:47
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borcowhen i received my n950, it was having a couple of apps that showcased the qml widgets. after updating the firmware, they are gone. any idea where to find them?16:47
fluxheh, temporary vi file in src..16:47
ZogG_laptopflux: lol =) new to git, didnt really added it16:49
ZogG_laptopdeleted it16:50
ZogG_laptopor ot16:51
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ZogG_laptopflux: it's vim =) and now deleted, clone the git, you would need jansson and curl libs as dependies16:54
ZogG_laptopthan just make, it would create bin/n9imgur16:54
ZogG_laptopthe usage is simly : bin/n9imgur file.png16:55
fluxzogg_laptop, I'll try to do that at some point, although so far I've been unsuccessful at finding time to do n9 app development ;)16:55
flux(apart for qml hello-world)16:55
ZogG_laptopflux: for now it moves slowly and as you see i only code the part without gui for now17:00
ZogG_laptopi'lll add gui after that and break my app into parts17:00
ZogG_laptopso it would be easier to insert it into gui as functions17:00
fluxI suggest at this point to keep in mind that network operations can sometimes stall, but the user interface shouldn't :).17:01
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ZogG_laptopflux: noone forbbid loading icon and timeout of operation17:03
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fluxzogg_laptop, I'm not sure if the system will be happy if it doesn't respond to X events when you swipe the app away/to the front17:04
fluxit might pop up the 'application not responding, kill with extreme prejudice'-dialog..17:05
ZogG_laptopflux: i think there would be no problems17:05
ZogG_laptopbtw interesting to add uploading bar after that17:05
ZogG_laptopbut it's when i'll get oauth17:05
ZogG_laptopas than i'll start playing with configs and more options as galleries/deleting and other17:07
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fluxquite.. complicated17:13
fluxfor the user that is17:13
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ZogG_laptopthe problem that they only have oauth17:23
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corecodeyey n9 + meego17:31
corecodemuch better than my n90017:31
X-FadeCan somebody remind me again how to backup your messages/conversations in harmattan? Where were they stored again?17:36
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corecodei think i did something wrong with mc-tool17:52
corecodeseems my xmpp account doesn't have a name17:52
lardman|homewhat was the suggestion for how to install .debs once logged in as developer?17:56
lardman|homeah, devel-su worked, phew17:57
Jare_corecode: mine doesn't too, but it works anyway. I haven't figured out a way to add a service name there for example like Facebook or SIP17:58
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* gri starts cursing aegis (because I don't understand it ...)18:18
djszapifirst post after my join :D18:18
djszapithere is no news under the sun ? :)18:19
gridjszapi: especially for you18:19
gridjszapi: Do you have a clue how applauncherd/invoker and aegis work together?18:19
griI use libsignon-qt to store credentials which are protected by my application token (no other application can read them)18:20
grithis works fine, but my application does not get it's own AID token when started with invoker -> can't read my own information18:20
djszapibusy atm, sorry.18:20
griok ..18:20
corecodeJare_: yea18:21
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corecodewhat version is PR1.1 for N9?18:22
corecodei have 10.2011.34-1.232.2_PR_23218:22
Jare_lemme check18:22
gri40-4 is pr 1.118:22
corecodeis there a way to do an OTA update?18:23
corecodeJare_: how did you update?18:24
Jare_through the official software update since PR1.1 is already available here in Finland18:25
corecodehow does it know where it is?18:26
djszapihey guys, a n00b QtQuick components question, but doesn't my toolbar rotate if I change the orientation, just the page ?18:27
djszapiI am using the QtQuick Harmattan component example.18:28
gridjszapi: How did you create the toolbar?18:30
gridjszapi: Or are you just running the components gallery?18:30
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dymaxioni just had the evil 100% cpu issue,  removed .cache/trackerd directory fixed it :-/ phew....18:30
djszapicopy/paste, and no:
gridjszapi: Hmm, the example code looks ok and my toolbars always change orientation18:31
dymaxionI was thinking of filing a bug report on my contacts problem... just wondering if anyone else has had same problem.... I click "merge" to merge duplicates from FB/Skype/GoogleContacts/Phone   and then a few minutes later all my merges are wiped out.. .and reset (exploded out again)...18:32
djszapigri: time to rewrite it in asm ;-)18:33
gridjszapi: Ok, see you in two years :P18:38
djszapigri: it is interesting, it even duplicated the topbar (a.k.a. battery icon, network provider icon, signal strength icon and the time on the right)..18:38
* djszapi should not do any Ui development ;-)18:40
tommaanyone else have random "incorrect password" with google talk when setting availability to online?18:40
gridjszapi: Do you have a short code for demonstrating this?18:44
djszapidefine short code ;-)18:44
grione .qml file18:44
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djszapiso what is the alternative for "MBasicListItem" by using QtQuick Components ?19:00
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djszapiso is there any harmattan component specific way of creating content item in a list ?19:01
tommacontent item in list?19:01
tommayou mean model?19:01
tommaor delegate for model?19:01
vladesthow to build qtcomponents for harmattan under win32?19:02
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djszapitomma: no, I mean Component actually.19:03
djszapiif we speak in QML term.19:03
djszapiit is content item in MTF19:03
djszapiso I would like to build something like a simple list (for instance in the Settings, icon, text, arrow to another page) except that I would also like to have a subtext.19:04
djszapiif you can check out the meePrint application I wrote in MTF...well, that represents the idea.19:04
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gridjszapi: model and import and ListDelegate component19:05
tommai dont think there is anything specific in components?19:05
griListDelegate supports icon, title and subtitle19:06
vladestheelo? enyone?19:07
grivladest: why? It's already built when installing the qt sdk19:07
djszapitomma: that is not really my question19:07
gridjszapi: this look + icon?19:08
djszapiThere is a thing called "MBasicListItem" in MTF, I would like to get the qml wrapper19:08
vladestgri: I want to build version > 1.1 from git and install on device19:08
djszapisince that rocks, it has everything I have.19:08
grivladest: For compiling for the phone you'll need the scratchbox19:09
djszapigri: in my understanding, Component is the delegate.19:09
djszapivladest: or madde19:09
djszapiif you are newbie and not using cmake, I would recommend madde19:09
grivladest: Windows should work out of the box, if not, read the README or INSTALL file in git19:09
vladestdjszapi: ok, opened madde window, what next?19:10
gridjszapi: Whatever component is for you?! Don't get your question19:10
vladestI think, I have to run configure.bat19:10
djszapigri: Component is a QML element, like Rectangle.19:11
vladestbut qmake for harmattan not in the path19:11
djszapithat's been working for delegating like since ever.19:11
djszapinot sure what "ListDelegate" is.19:11
griListDelegate is a predefined delegate component of
djszapiI see it nowhere in the documentation19:12
griextras is missing in the docs19:12
djszapi -> this one, well I would not like to use undocumented feature, sorry.19:12
griundocumented != unsupported19:13
griif you install the QML components gallery, you'll get two of them. One for and one for
djszapiundocumented = maintenance hell19:13
griwell, if you don't like it, copy it ... but that's even more plainless19:15
djszapiI do not need it for copy/paste. Meh, it seems qml is still worse than the MTF opportunities.19:15
djszapiI did not think such a simple item, like the MBasicListItem is not exposed :/19:15
griwell, it's there, you just want not to use it since you do not accept as opportunity19:16
djszapiI do not use undocumented stuff sorry.19:16
djszapiif they do not care about their product, I do not care either.19:17
griwell, missing on harmattan-dev library does not mean undocumented19:17
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griactually there is documentation inside but not visible on harmattan-dev19:17
grithose components are even used by the ovi store app19:18
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djszapiI did it many times, and they screwed up my plan many times like this, sorry it is no go for me.19:18
grisince the MNotification copy of qml belongs to them19:18
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djszapiapparently every single example presents a different ListDelegate.19:23
djszapian own implementation instead of having a magic one.19:23
djszapisince my app is mostly the page of lists, might be simpler to write it in MTF19:24
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gri<djszapi> apparently every single example presents a different ListDelegate. <- huh?19:25
djszapicheck out19:25
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djszapilink above, + widgetgallery19:27
djszapijust type QListDelegate into the public SDK search field...19:27
grithe link above is a qt example19:27
djszapizillion results with various own implementations.19:27
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gridon't mix plain qtquick examples with qt-components examples19:27
djszapithat is /qml/..19:28
djszapithose are the resulsts of the public documentation19:29
djszapiqml, components are still crap, /me is heading to MTF again.19:29
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grieven the qml components gallery demo uses the ListDelegate of
djszapiso what ? still not documented ?19:30
djszapisorry, but I left my crystal ball at home what features, properties and so on it has19:30
djszapiand anyway, it is already done in MTF...19:31
griwell, aegis is also not that good documented and I have to use it :P19:31
djszapibut I do not have to use QML ?19:31
djszapithat example is as poor as it can be...19:32
grino, you don't. But it's easier with qml than mtf19:32
djszapialso, that listdelegate makes no sense19:32
djszapisince it starts building the stuff that you can do that as well anyway19:32
djszapieasier ? Yeah, I see....19:32
grieasier if you're used to it, yes19:32
djszapi30 minutes and still nothing, and 2 minutes with MTF ;-)19:32
grimore annoying if you're not used to it19:32
djszapias I said, that listdelegate makes no sense in that example, at least19:33
djszapisince what it does, can be seriously  done the same way with Component...19:33
griwhy doesn't it make a sense? don't get that19:33
tommasomeone should document that ListDelegate... or else you have to check from ListDelegate.qml those RoleNames for model everytime19:34
tommaunles there is some complete model for those items?19:34
djszapianyway, I would use first MTF, then Components than this crap19:34
griyes, that's your opinion19:35
grimine is different :) it took me a long time to decide between mtf and qtquick ..19:35
djszapiComponent has nothing to do with mtf19:35
djszapiso where is this supermagical ListDelegate implemented ?19:36
gritake a look at /usr/lib/qt4/imports/com/nokia/extras/ListDelegate.qml19:37
grithere also, yes19:38
djszapiit does not have the main and subtext exposed.19:39
griyour model has to provide a title and subtitle role19:39
djszapimmm, it gets those from the model19:39
tommaas i said... it should be documented... you give it model which has right rolenames19:39
griListElement{ title: "title" }19:39
grior c++19:40
djszapiwell it  does not have two images in the first place I need.19:40
djszapilike the simple Settings list item entry..19:41
griwhich settings list entry has two images?19:41
djszapiwell, that is different19:41
djszapigri: any19:41
djszapiwhich is browsable further19:41
griyou mean that "more indicator" as second image?19:41
griyou have to add that yourself19:42
djszapicome is so trivial stuff on this platform ...19:42
griit's about two lines of code ...19:42
djszapiyes, that is what they could not implement, ssad19:43
griin the time you used for complaining you could have coded it 10 times :)19:43
djszapiimho it's been available in MTF since ever.19:43
djszapiyou confuse me with a code-monkey.19:44
djszapiit is not about doing a hack in 2 ms, but improving something, more or less...19:44
griyou only complain about the fact that mtf and qt-components does not share the same architecture19:44
djszapianyway, it is not even documented... so I will build my listview and probably send back to internals...19:44
grithings are named different, things work different ...19:45
djszapithat is sadly not true19:45
djszapiI wish it just worked differently...It works like a very small subset of MTF...19:46
grithen go for mtf :)19:46
djszapialready done ;)19:46
djszapinever ever touch this crap :)19:47
vladestbut qmake for harmattan not in the path' how to run configure on windows for qt components in madde window?19:48
grivladest: "mad list"19:48
gri"mad set <environment>"19:49
grito set the default environment19:49
vladestgri done19:49
grigo into qt-components dir "mad configure.bat" I assume (no idea, only used scratchbox until now)19:49
grior "mad dpkg-buildpackage"19:50
djszapivladest: good advice. Please do not use cmake with madde19:50
vladestdjszapi: i'm not19:51
djszapikeep that habit, horribly buggy.19:51
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vladestgri: ok, how to build it within scratchbox?19:53
djszapi -> How can I check out the raw data ?19:53
gridownload it, switch to armel and run "fakeroot dpkg-buildpackage"19:53
gridjszapi: top right "raw data blob"?19:54
vladestgri: scratchbox available only for windows?19:54
grivladest: No19:54
vladestsorry, for linux?19:54
djszapigri: that wanna download the file, not checking on the website...19:54
grilinux, yes19:54
vladestgri: only?19:54
grivladest: I think si19:55
gridjszapi: Well, open in text editor?19:55
vladestsucks, so only madde left19:55
grivladest: virtualbox is for free19:55
vladestgri: I know... may be someone builds harmattan packages somewhere?19:56
djszapivladest: there was an alpha version for windows. You might wanna ask the authors19:56
grieven madde on windows is so damn slow that I only code inside a linux virtualbox image :)19:57
* vladest just want latest qt components without bug in SelectionDialog19:57
djszapivladest: maybe you can build and use it in mingw on Windows ?19:57
vladestdjszapi: I nedd this on device19:58
grivladest: what bug in selectiondialog?19:58
vladestgri: bug about using c++ model19:58
grimore details ..?!19:59
djszapivladest: sb on Mac:
djszapiit is a pity, gitorious does not allow raw file browsing.20:00
djszapireally painful to copy paste a snippet.20:00
djszapiI am getting such an error, if I try to use this ListDelegate:
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griwhat's on mainpage.qml:61 ?20:08
djszapitomma: I claimed public documentation for it internally, and also a version which does contain the common drilldown arrow.20:08
djszapigri: delegate: gameItemsDelegate;20:09
djszapiif you need the whole MainPage:
djszapialso, ListDelegate will not work for the ListView's header anyway20:12
djszapiand I need the same feature in the header after all.20:12
gridjszapi: try to wrap the ListDelegate in a Component {}20:13
djszapimeh, ListDelegate does not respect the header...20:13
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djszapiit starts laying over that20:13
djszapi M4rtinK o/20:13
djszapigri meh20:13
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gridon't have this here, I use header and ListDelegate but no ListDelegate as header element20:14
djszapime neither...20:14
gri =
gridamn, this one:
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djszapi*facepalm* for gitorious not allowing raw data browsing :)20:17
corecodehow do you do xmpp/jingle audio/video calls?  i added the gabble/jabber account20:21
djszapicorecode: imho, jabber video does not work yet20:21
djszapiif I am not mistaken20:21
djszapiat least with PR 1.120:21
corecodethat's sad20:22
djszapibecause it is not implemented :)20:22
djszapisame with skype20:22
corecodeand audio?20:23
M4rtinKdjszapi: ?? :)20:24
djszapiM4rtinK: heya20:25
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M4rtinKdjszapi: oh, hi :)20:26
djszapiM4rtinK: I got a harmattan repository from kde -sysadmins :)20:27
djszapiM4rtinK: c-obs suffer is over :)20:27
djszapigri: ListDelegate seems to be a QObject, no real QDeclarativeComponent..20:28
djszapigri: which is the most appropriate support channel for the qt components bugs, btw, like #qt-qml ?20:29
M4rtinKdjszapi: so you are not pushing the packages through OBS any more, but through another build system ?20:30
djszapiM4rtinK: yes, and no.20:30
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djszapiM4rtinK: I will publish the packages in there, if c-obs behaves weird20:31
djszapiso it is a fallback.20:31
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djszapiM4rtinK: so there is no such thing, as: "Ohh the community obs broke it again, and we are here without the proper packages".20:31
M4rtinKdjszapi: well yeah, you can just add two repository urls and it should work20:32
djszapiM4rtinK: or you can just install one broken c-obs package by hand from there.20:33
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djszapigri: try to put yoru ListDelegate separately.20:33
M4rtinKdjszapi: other than that, I would say such heavy usage of C-OBS you and the Mer projects provide is IMO pretty good for finding the root cause of all the various bugs :)20:33
djszapiwell, mer is not harmattan target...20:34
djszapisorry, it is...20:34
djszapior well, I do not know.20:35
M4rtinKwell, they "test" the non-target part of the infrastructure anyway :D20:35
djszapiobs is not that bad...the Harmattan target is the one creepy :)20:35
M4rtinKwell yeah, it feels kinda hacked together20:36
M4rtinKIMHO it basically just the imported SDK20:36
djszapinot just that...the aegis usage is also weird (remember the spammy log...)20:37
djszapiand things like tied relation with for publishing (at least in the past) is also mysterious =)20:38
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M4rtinKgo find that non-default Harmattan target X-Fade mentioned and fix it as an Aegis expert ! :)20:38
M4rtinKwould really help with log verbosity BTW :)20:39
djszapigri: the difference is that your model is in qml. In the meantime, my model is from C++ ...20:39
djszapiM4rtinK: I did try, it is not trivial...20:39
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M4rtinKinteresting ! nice to hear it is being worked on :)20:41
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jonnidocumented in here
djszapiok, so it is easy to fix in the public SDK20:50
djszapithough, it is not much documentation20:51
M4rtinKdjszapi: BTW, why are you actually building all these KDE libs ? for some KDE-mobile subproject or similar ?20:54
djszapiM4rtinK: because we love KDE.20:54
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djszapiM4rtinK: you might wanna read these pages: -
djszapiM4rtinK: -> Here is my KDE Mobile talk from the near past. There are also some blogs here about kde mobile:
M4rtinKinteresting ! so basically you take KDE applications and either adapt (or rewrite in QML) the desktop interfaces for mobile use ?21:01
djszapithat is the idea.21:01
djszapisee the 3rd slide of my presentation.21:02
M4rtinKand the output should be stand alone applications runnable on Harmattan ?21:02
M4rtinKdjszapi: looking at it right now21:03
djszapiyes, please check the slides. These questions are covered there :)21:03
gridjszapi: my model is a c++ one21:04
griwas having dinner, sorry :)21:04
djszapigri: not really.21:05
djszapior well, at least I have never used it that way21:05
djszapi{} confused me.21:06
djszapisorry for that. Do you have an idea ?21:06
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gridjszapi: I have no idea why it fails for you, I'd just use delegate: ListDelegate {} and no external one - but that should not really make a different21:08
djszapiM4rtinK: the KDE Mobile has been there for many years (since 2008 akademy) as you can see on the slides. There are two main focuses nowadays: 1) Plasma Active 2) Places where you cannot replace the workspace, or do not want to do that, like Harmattan, Android and so on.21:08
djszapiM4rtinK: I am trying to take care of the second case altogether since the first use case is covered well by the Plasma team.21:08
djszapigri: that is not possible21:09
M4rtinKdjszapi: what's the plan for distributing the standalone applications once they are done ?21:09
djszapigri: since I change the delegates...21:09
djszapiM4rtinK: read the wiki please :)21:09
djszapiI spent a decent time with that, and then a google code-in student to fix the English mistakes. I think it is in a pretty good shape by now.21:10
gridjszapi: You change it? Adding that more indicator is not really changing21:10
djszapigri: I have two listdelegates...21:10
djszapion purpose.21:10
griah, exchange :D21:10
djszapiswap, yes.21:11
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djszapiso it is not really an option to use an embedded one for me.21:11
griok moment I will try locally here to reproduce your case21:11
djszapiM4rtinK: I will try to organize a KDE Android sprint in the beginning of the next year. Android dudes have been making a great job with the Qt port over there.21:12
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gridjszapi: You did not try my suggestion before21:19
M4rtinKdjszapi: any word about official Python bindings for the Android Qt port ? :) there is: But something officially supported would be also nice. :)21:19
griListDelegate { id: myDelegate } ListView { delgate: myDelegate } produces the "model" not found error21:20
djszapino real clue, sorry21:20
djszapiM4rtinK: you can ask on the mailing list or on their irc channel21:20
griComponent { id: myDelegate; ListDelegate { } } ListView { delgate: myDelegate }  <<-- works21:20
M4rtinKdjszapi: ok :) on a Android related note, a user recently managed to run my GTK+Python based navigation application on Android inside chroot, including working location :)21:22
djszapigri: I did not try because I was distracted like on 5-6 channels :)21:22
djszapibut at any rate... that is really hackish21:23
M4rtinKit is reportedly faster that on N900 and only issue so far is with sound output :)21:23
grinot it is not hackish21:23
griit's like described in the documentation21:23
djszapiM4rtinK: I am actually working on a qtcreate alternative for android21:23
djszapiM4rtinK: qtcreator does suck.21:23
djszapigri: meh21:23
thpM4rtinK: pyside channel is #pyside; the android port is non-official, but if you have problems running it, ask me21:23
djszapidocumentation writing does not make the crap god.21:23
griListDelegate {} instantiates a delegate21:24
gribut ListView wants a creatable component as delegate21:24
djszapiexcept that ListDelegate should be a component...21:24
djszapiM4rtinK: so the problem is that with Android KDE, QtCreator is not gonna work. We need to find a different workflow. Madde will probably work though, but I would like to get sb work21:25
griIt's defined behavior. Your problem is only you don't know about that :)21:25
djszapidefined crap21:25
griyour pov :)21:25
djszapiask any sane persons.21:25
djszapidoing a proxy component for ahcking around the limitations is architecturally broken21:26
M4rtinKthp: thanks ! :) I have my plate pretty full currently with Fremantle & Harmattan support but it is definitely nice to know there is another interesting platform to expand to in the future :)21:27
griyeah, but you're using it different than the normal person would do21:27
djszapiand you are not really happy when there zillions of those hecks...21:27
djszapiwhat ?21:27
djszapiusinga ListDelegate for delegating the ListView is not "normal" ?21:27
djszapisounds really funky :)21:27
griif you use exactly one delegate, you can use delegate: NotAProxy {}21:27
griit seems they designed it to use it like that21:28
djszapiwhich obviously sucks.21:28
griif you use it different, create a component wrapper, yes21:28
djszapiin C++, I can switch the delegate anytime.21:28
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djszapithey made it crap. Hope they will fix it.21:28
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Jare_has anyone found a way to configure which codecs and in what order they are used in sip?21:30
djszapigri: also, no it does not work yet at all21:31
gridjszapi: Do you have a "title" and/or "subtitle" role?21:32
djszapiwhy would I have ?21:32
gribecause that's required to use ListDelegate21:32
djszapiseems again something /really/ weird criteria from the undocumented ListDelegate.21:32
djszapino, I will not mess up the backend under all the Uis, sorry that is no go.21:33
djszapijust because ListDelegate would like me to mess up the backend under every UIs existing out there.21:33
griit's not messing up even though it's a bit annoying21:34
djszapiit is21:34
djszapibecause I would need to add a completely useless role for the backend21:34
djszapiit should not really dictate what I would like to propose as a role. Moreover, it would be the freedom of the backend developers.21:35
griwell, that's easy to change but it's not done21:35
griso either copy the ListDelegate if you don't like the role names and/or fix it on gitorious21:35
djszapiit is a completely useless element for the time being for my application so far.21:35
grisure it would have made mor sense if they exposed a title and subtitle property and you can choose yourself which role you want to assign to which one21:36
djszapiremember, that is what I have been saying from the beginning when you screamed at me :)21:37
djszapiwhen I asked about title and that they are not exposed. Well, it is weird why it is this way.21:38
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djszapiI mean exposing those are 2 lines.21:40
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djszapigri: do you know the ssh address of this repository ?21:44
djszapiI can see only the https and git21:44
djszapishould not take too long to test the patch21:44
djszapiactually I did it locally so it is just about the merge request21:45
griYou have to clone the repository and submit a merge request21:45
djszapiYes, I know. However, I cannot push it without the ssh address which is the only available here.21:45
djszapifor cloning: Sorry, something went wrong21:46
djszapiGitorious encountered an server error. We are automatically notified of errors and will look into it. If the error persists beyond what's reasonable, let us know.21:46
djszapijust gitorious...21:46
corecodeso no messages/calls with gabble/jabber?21:47
griwell for your personal clone you'll receive the ssh address - if it works :)21:47
corecodeor did i do something wrong?21:47
grilazlo papp cloned so it looks like it worked :P21:48
djszapigri: for the third try, yes21:48
djszapialso, note that my name contains an 's' :)21:48
griI added +s :)21:49
djszapinice, it works21:50
djszapiwanna test ?21:50
griI believe it works without testing :)21:52
corecodeno pr1.1 yet :/21:54
djszapigri: just gitorious ...21:56
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djszapihttps, sorry...21:57
gridjszapi: You have to push to your clone21:57
djszapiwhy did it clone https for the ssh address in the first place ? o_o21:57
djszapigri: yes, that was my intention21:57
grivladest: Is the selectiondialog patched right now? or are you hoping for that?21:59
grivladest: Since the one on my phone nearly looks the same than the one on gitorious ... no more ListModel {} inside22:00
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gridjszapi: I have to complain your changes22:02
griyou should name it title and subtitle again22:02
griand assign default values to model.title and model.subtitle again22:03
griotherwise old code won't be compatible22:03
djszapithey will do it :)22:03
djszapiI have no more time.22:03
djszapialso, gitorious merge request does not even show my patch22:04
djszapiI will not call it title by any means since it makes no sense22:04
griit makes sense in my point of view22:05
gri here is your request22:05
djszapithose are text properties22:05
djszapithat is not my request anymore :)22:05
griok :D22:05
griwhy not submit a complete request?22:05
djszapititle did make no sense22:05
djszapisince everything is called text22:06
djszapiid, the property, and everything in similar cases really...22:06
djszapieven in MTF22:06
djszapititle was really a wrong terming.22:06
djszapiso this patch also fixes that22:06
gridialogs have "titleText"22:06
djszapithis should fix it.22:06
grino, 15 + 1622:07
djszapiwhy not fix a complete patch ?22:07
djszapibecause 22:0622:07
grireplace ; with :22:07
djszapiand I am still at work22:07
djszapiI mean not just that22:07
djszapithere is also another minor issue there.22:07
grithat's ok22:08
grito be complete, expose the image, too22:08
djszapigood catch22:09
djszapithough, there was no complain about that22:09
djszapiso that is not a must have22:09
djszapianyway, I need to leave soonish :)22:09
griiconSource, not image :)22:10
djszapiyes, I understood clearly.22:10
djszapiok, let me do it22:10
djszapibut I hope I can catch the last train :)22:10
djszapiI think I can use "icon" as a property term instead of iconSource22:11
griiconSource makes it more clear that it's actually a path, not a pixmap itself22:12
gribut the merge request receiver will decide that :)22:12
djszapithat is a heck22:12
djszapiyou cannot assign an icon directly...22:12
djszapithat is how the Image component also works22:12
djszapiI do not really understand why they did this hack.22:13
djszapiactually icon source is even a worse term since it whispers the svg content for instance...22:13
griImage {} has source as property22:13
djszapiiconPath would be clearer...22:13
griso iconSource makes sense22:13
djszapijust described why not...22:13
djszapiicon source is like the source of the icon, like svn xml content22:14
djszapiiconPath would be the clearest imho22:14
griyeah, but since the qml Image element names it source22:14
djszapiyes, I know.22:14
djszapiI will make it work with iconSource22:14
djszapisince I do not have the sake for fighting with them22:14
griotherwise it might confuse users22:14
djszapibut that makes no sense imho22:14
djszapithey already did :)22:15
djszapifrom the beginning :)22:15
djszapiis it the code path ?22:15
djszapinot really...22:15
griLoader {} also uses source22:16
griso source seems to be the "path" term for qml22:16
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djszapiwhich is big mistake22:16
djszapisince Qt did not follow that terming at all22:16
djszapiso they kinda broke the consistency inside the Qt framework22:17
djszapiand Qt C++ did it cool imho...22:17
grinot really22:18
grisince qml uses network transparencity22:18
djszapisorry ?22:18
griand path sounds like "local file"22:18
griand sources for qml Images and Loaders can also be urls22:18
djszapihave you ever heard about "remote path" ?22:19
djszapipath != local path only.22:19
grimaybe not for you :)22:19
gribut ok, qml is consistent in itself and qt also. I don't see what's the big problem about that22:20
djszapibecause you do not use nowadays only one of them solely for Ui ?22:20
djszapiand it is inside the same framework ?22:20
corecodeis there a way to force an ota update?22:21
djszapiit is like saying, I use different code in core, but different network22:21
djszapithis is not really the Qt way. Actually read the Qt Coding Style.22:21
djszapithat is written for the whole framework22:21
djszapiand read the Qt API Design guide.22:21
djszapiprobably you missed that.22:21
griwasn't qml made for "the ui can made by designers" and core is made by programmers?22:21
griso it would be two worlds22:21
djszapithat is your speculation22:22
djszapiplease read the Qt API Design guide...22:22
djszapithese things are written there I said..22:22
djszapiif you do nto believe me...22:22
griwhatever, it's too late to change it, so you have to accept it22:23
djszapiqml does not even make sense alone regarding this22:23
djszapisince source is just plain wrong term22:23
djszapiYes, I said I accept it, remember ?22:23
griyou also said you want to catch your train and still argue with me :P22:23
djszapiyou bother me...22:24
grigood night22:24
djszapilast note: I think these incosistencies come from Brisbane, Australia22:24
djszapiwho did not really contact with others.22:24
djszapisame phono stousame story with phonon and other things...22:24
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djszapigri: I would still reject my patch since I did not write documentation23:08
griYou will or you would if you were the reviewer?23:08
griis there a mailing list for aegis? I'm really start to hate it because I have no idea why some things don't work as I expect ...23:12
gristarting to hate*23:12
djszapithere has been a mailing list for ages for aegis.23:13
djszapithough, I can assure you none of us cares about trolling "hating" mails.23:13
griwell I would not write that :)23:14
djszapiso you would lie ?23:14
griit's only I copied the .aegis file of the youtube accounts plugin23:14
grithey do things I can't23:14
griand I don't know if it's because my source is not "" or something different23:14
djszapiI thought you got the point many months ago about it23:15
djszapiso it is just the fundamental entry point of the whole sec fw23:15
griwell, my program works as expected as long as I don't start it with invoker23:15
djszapijust read the log.23:15
gribut when starting via invoker, my credentials get lost23:16
griso it's just about: how to get my credentials even when using the invoker23:16
djszapisorry, but I have better things to do than aegis discussions :)23:16
djszapiit was almost never a good point in the past, so I would not like to discuss it anymore.23:16
griit's not a rant about aegis, it's just a thing that's really missing in the docs23:17
djszapidid not matter how much I helped.23:17
djszapino, it is actually not missing in the docs.23:17
djszapiit is just that you did not read carefully.23:18
griwell, then point me to where I should read it23:18
djszapibtw, anyway, I would like to stop the whole aegis help desk stuff23:18
gri <- this does not help23:19
griwhen my application starts with launcher, I receive some tokens I requested but not the ones that my package provides ... also my AID is missing23:19
corecode:/ NSU also doesn't have new versions?23:20
jpwhitinghmm, /me notices the Qt sdk now claims to contain targets for harmattan23:20
jpwhitingdoes that mean the windows sdk contains scratchbox and harmattan emulator?23:21
jpwhiting or /simulator23:21
jpwhitingdjszapi: so it doesn't have harmattan targets?23:22
jpwhitingor it just doesn't contain the simulator?23:22
grithere's no scratchbox for windows23:22
djszapiit does not contain sb, but it does have madde23:22
jpwhitinggri: yeah, that's what I thought23:22
jpwhitingdjszapi: so can people develop for harmattan on windows?23:22
djszapijpwhiting: for you, it should not matter23:22
djszapido you developer kde application or some other projects using cmake ?23:23
djszapiif not, madde will work for you23:23
djszapialso qemu (emulator) should be available.23:23
djszapisame with simulator imho23:23
jpwhitingyes, I do, but I'll be helping engineers who only have windows machines do some harmattan lib23:23
djszapiyou are out of the luck then23:23
jpwhitingso wondering if they will need a whole linux virtualbox or just the sdk23:23
djszapimadde will not work with cmake23:24
djszapiat least without serious hacks.23:24
djszapicmake -> highly recommend sb23:24
jpwhitingah, this is not using cmake, it's using probably regular makefiles, or autoconf or something23:24
jpwhitingmy part of the project will use autoconf but I'll be on linux so can use sb just fine23:24
djszapiwell, you said: "yes, I do" =)23:24
jpwhitingnot sure what their lib uses to build with23:24 should not use sb23:25
djszapiif you are not a pro sb user.23:25
djszapimadde will epically fail for cmake, but if that is not the case: I would recommend MADDE23:25
jpwhitingguiding others to port a C++ library that already builds on iOS and android to Harmattan madde is adequate?23:25
djszapidepends on many factors23:26
djszapifor autoconf, it is.23:26
jpwhitingmadde on windows I mean23:26
jpwhitingI see23:26
djszapithough QtCreator is seriously buggy23:26
djszapibut give a try and w23:26
djszapiyou will see whether it fits to your needs.23:27
jpwhitingis madde only usable from within qt creator? the C++ library would not include any gui just a backend library23:27
djszapiI would not touch qtcreator since I do kde development23:27
jpwhitinguses sockets and such23:27
djszapino, madde is just a backend underneath23:27
jpwhitingyeah, I don't have much experience with Qt creator either23:27
djszapiwe used madde frm console during the KDE Harmattan sprint23:27
jpwhitingah, qt sdk is Qt Creator?23:27
jpwhitingqt sdk for windows I mean23:27
jpwhitingok, I'll give it a shot and see23:28
djszapithough, QtCreator bloeee :)23:28
djszapiwe discussed with Aleix, we will implement madde support in KDevelop23:29
djszapiand since kdevelop has a good cmake support, it will rock more than this qtcreator thingie :)23:29
gridjszapi: Where is this aegis mailinglist? I seem to be too stupid to find it23:33
griwell, everytime I ask I find it23:33
djszapigri: please do not bother me about aegis, thanks.23:34
gridjszapi: This is not bothering23:34
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