IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2011-11-17

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gabriel9still no updates for denamrk00:40
gabriel9Denmark *00:40
ZogG_laptopoops to gabriel900:44
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: you i wanted to ask about where to post ideas about apps client (like maemo brainstorm) and if there is bug tracker for it?00:45
ZogG_laptopPM me the answer so i wouldn't lost it in logs00:45
ieatlintyou're missing so much without that update00:51
ieatlint40-4 adds a new app that brings you cookies00:52
gabriel9how much i pad for this phone it shold bake them00:52
ieatlinti stopped paying for phones when i realized how many drunk people at the bar weren't paying enough attention00:54
gabriel9well my old phone was without display and really old00:55
gabriel9and this is Linux so00:55
gabriel9i bought it00:55
ieatlintah, and has the novelty worn off yet?00:56
gabriel9novelty is? :/00:58
gabriel9like new?00:58
gabriel9the phone is OK00:59
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gabriel9but still it is too much monney which i could send to people on Kosovo and Metohija to help them01:00
ieatlintit's an expensive phone no doubt01:00
gabriel9too much01:01
gabriel9how to reference some element from other qml file?01:03
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ieatlintyou refer to the name of the file01:06
ieatlinteg, if your element is Icon.qml, then in main.qml you'd do "Icon { }"01:06
gabriel9in Icon i have button which i wish to click when i click button im mail file01:07
gabriel9i think the right word is delegate01:07
gabriel9or trigger01:07
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ieatlintyour Icon shouldn't be aware of other elements like that01:08
gabriel9just for practice :)01:08
gabriel9i wish to see what i can do with qml01:09
M4rtinKgabriel9: check this howto on creating custom QML components :)01:09
gabriel9i forgot on this, i read it long time ago01:10
gabriel9has anyone tried opera or firefox for N9?01:11
gabriel9are they good01:11
rzrff is ok01:12
gabriel9and does any of them have console for debugging01:12
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M4rtinKI use the unofficial Opera build and its fine, especially due to the tabbed browsing01:15
ieatlintever notice /usr/share/themes/blanco/meegotouch/icons/icon-m-firefox.png on the device?01:15
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ieatlintor how about icon-m-service-dropbox.png ...01:17
ieatlintshame there isn't more than just icons there01:17
gabriel9there will be01:21
ieatlintquite the faith you have there01:22
gabriel9faith and will :)01:23
gabriel9and no, i'm no relilion man :D01:23
gabriel9but i like Emperor01:23
gabriel9For The Emeror!01:23
ieatlintbacon is delicious01:24
gabriel9no more kill01:24
gabriel9ing animals01:25
gabriel9did you ever kill animal?01:25
gabriel9welll it is not good sight or smell01:26
gabriel9it's just wrong01:26
ieatlinti've killed animals, yes01:27
ieatlintanimals are delicious01:27
gabriel9yes, but i think people are also01:28
gabriel9if you cook them and stuff them with chease01:28
ieatlinti wouldn't know... canabalism is a bit beyond my interests01:28
ieatlintplus, illegal here01:28
ieatlinti figure as long as i kill fewer animals than PETA, i'm still good01:29
gabriel9well i also eat meet01:29
gabriel9i must01:29
gabriel9or i will die01:29
gabriel9but it's still wrong01:30
gabriel9it is a living01:30
DocScrutinizerman eats animals since 1 mio years01:30
ieatlintyeah, if i wanted to live a life wrought with guilt, i'd be catholic01:30
DocScrutinizerand animals eat man since 5 mio years01:30
gabriel9i dont judge01:30
gabriel9i think it is wrong01:31
gabriel9we are smarter01:31
DocScrutinizergrow leaves, get green01:31
gabriel9last time when i was at dentist he said to me that our teath are not for meat01:31
DocScrutinizerooh god01:32
ieatlinthe's wrong01:32
ieatlintour bodies can eat raw meat01:32
ieatlintwe evolved with that, and it's why we have fangs01:32
gabriel9and dirt also :D01:32
gabriel9but can we evlve more?01:32
ieatlintdon't go insulting geophagy now too01:32
M4rtinKwell, you can't eat only raw meat01:33
M4rtinKyou need some other vitamins that are not present in it01:33
ieatlintno, we solved that with modern medicine and the bible -- no more evolution now01:33
DocScrutinizerlast time I heard about such stuff, it was about our spine not meant for upright walking. So maybe we shall creep on all 4 limbs, back to the roots01:33
rcgwell, some even eat lint01:33
gabriel9there is some dude which don't eat01:34
gabriel9in india01:34
ieatlintyeah, we call them hungry01:34
ieatlintand generally malnourished / gaunt / anorexic01:34
gabriel9no this one is OK01:35
gabriel9he get energy from sun01:35
M4rtinKbattery powered ? :)01:35
ieatlintwell, sounds like superman moved to india then01:35
DocScrutinizerI gather he grew leaves and is green?01:35
gabriel9he is not superman01:36
gabriel9he don't wear underwear outside01:37
ieatlinti probably wouldn't watch it anyway, but i'm at work and can't right now01:37
gabriel9no problem :)01:37
gabriel9did you ever hear about sungazing?01:38
ieatlinti'm enjoying the best part of job.. waiting for code to compile01:38
ieatlintno, but i've heard of mythology01:38
ieatlintso, close enough01:38
gabriel9you are lucky, in php there is no compiling :(01:38
gabriel9so no rest for me01:39
ieatlintbut you don't spend half your day dealing with linking issues i bet01:39
DocScrutinizersorry, but that's too much of BS for me. As long as this guy has a damp mouth and can breathe and a mirror will steam up when he's breathing at it, he's going to die after a few days or weeks without drinking. No sun energy of any kind will help, not even if his skin was green01:40
gabriel9just spending hald day debuging ajax, working on cross browser compability01:40
gabriel9no job is easy01:40
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ieatlintyeah, if that guy is legit, there's a $1m USD payout waiting for him:
ieatlint"The organization offers a prize of one million U.S. dollars which it will pay out to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria"01:41
gabriel9well maybe it is BS but still it is really nice even like a idea01:41
DocScrutinizersame thing with CO2 and eating, if he's breating out CO2 then where from is the C?01:42
gabriel9we cold travel in space01:42
rzrlet me announce that I just built sshfs01:44
rzrbut i need a aegis guru to use it01:44
gabriel9but i don't know what is that01:45
DocScrutinizerrzr: lol01:45
rzrgabriel9: a way to mount a remote filesystem01:47
DocScrutinizerrzr: you don't need an aegis guru, what you need is either a) somebody who could sign your packages for you with a genuine Nokia key, or b) and open mode kernel, or c) an aegis *cracker* who knows how to neuter aegis for good01:48
gabriel9i really enjoy this phone01:49
DocScrutinizerof the 3 options above, none seems exactly useful for general public01:49
rzrdocScrutinizer are you sure this is that requiered, check
DocScrutinizerwell, a) was if it ever likely to happen01:50
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DocScrutinizerhmm, rethinking the "u" in fuse you might actually achieve to get it working even without completely screwing paegis01:53
rzraegis seems based on fuse too isnt it ?01:54
DocScrutinizererr, don't see that01:54
DocScrutinizerbut dunno, with aegis a lot amazing things seem possible01:54
rzror impossible01:55
DocScrutinizerI wouldn't be amazed finding it's based on pacman01:55
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DocScrutinizeror doom01:55
rzrcan you please :01:58
rzr ls -l /usr/bin/fusermount  /sbin/mount.fuse01:58
DocScrutinizerI have a cloudy idea how file permissions and acl are implemented, but I have to admit I never even looked into POSIX perms and how they work under the hood. The less I have an idea how aegis works01:58
DocScrutinizerI guess it tainted the kernel all over plus all middleware, to control everything from execve() to dbus-send02:01
DocScrutinizerso it's hardly based on fuse, eh?02:02
djszapiM4rtinK: rebuild did not fix it02:04
djszapirzr: it is not02:04
rzrsomeone did say that here but i thought like you first02:04
djszapirzr: aegisfs is built out of fuse02:04
M4rtinKdjszapi: still RPC timeout ? it might occur multiple times02:05
M4rtinKalso, the MeeGo API might be down02:05
rzrwell anyway can harmattan's kernel support fuse ?02:05
djszapirzr: fuse is a user space fs ...02:05
rzri know that02:06
rzrbut i can not exec fusermount02:06
djszapiof course you cannot02:07
djszapiI do not even know why you expect that, it could be possible.02:07
djszapiM4rtinK: yes, it is properly broken many times :(
djszapiM4rtinK: tried, to retrigger it many times. Never really had such an issue recently :(02:08
djszapithis scary stuff is coming back :((02:08
M4rtinKare any other packages building ?02:10
djszapiM4rtinK: yes, as you saw, soprano did.02:11
djszapithe thing is stranger than ever since it now drops this rpc timeout during a proper build02:11
djszapiit always appeared previously from the beginning, not in the middle of a proper build.02:11
DocScrutinizerrzr: one unrelated comment: you got e pretty terrible serif font there for your code snippets, tiny and with e looking like c02:13
DocScrutinizerconfused the hell outa me02:13
DocScrutinizerI thre times tried to wipe the dust away from my screen, when there wasn't any ;-D02:14
rzrbuy a vt10002:14
DocScrutinizerrzr: you checked your syslog for aegis nagging there about failed credentials checks etc?02:15
djszapiM4rtinK: but it happens with more packages, not just kdelibs. It also happens with kde-runtime02:15
M4rtinKThe thing's building—it goes on forever—and—oh my God—it's full of No AEGIS_HASH_FDS environment !02:17
djszapinot true02:18
djszapithat is just happening until the package starts building (ie: pre-steps, like bootstrap).02:19
djszapiand that is harmless message from our pov anyway02:19
DocScrutinizerrzr: also watch out not to suffer from02:20
infobotsomebody said malf was
DocScrutinizeriirc this was what javispedro earned when playing with things like RPC, remote file systems etc02:21
djszapiit was a system-services bug02:21
djszapinothing to do with aegis.02:21
djszapithe system-services maintainers fixed their bug, that is all02:21
DocScrutinizerat random moments in time, like 15 min after leaving the house with newly pimped up HARM02:21
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DocScrutinizertriggered by a sweet nuttin02:22
djszapisince they put the device into malf state for whatever reason they want. They put the device into MALF state for no real reasons.02:22
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DocScrutinizerI'm actually amazed you still can download HARM firmware without your virus checker identifying some malware in it XP02:25
* javispedro is reminded to backup weekend photos from the n950 before it decides to malf again02:25
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djszapiyou should actually back up more thing than photos in general on any systems anyway02:25
* DocScrutinizer writes a mail to kaspersky about that new evil malware with signature aegis-malf02:26
rzr06:05.14SpeedEvilIs 'aegisfs' encrypted?02:27
rzr06:05.23SpeedEvilOr is it just another filesystem02:27
rzr06:05.35djszapiSpeedEvil: it is a userspace filesystem on the top of fuse.02:27
djszapiit is an encrypted fs....02:27
rzr06:06.15SpeedEvilSo it's not doing any encryption. K.02:27
rzr06:06.24djszapiit does.02:27
rzr06:06.32djszapiusing openssl02:27
djszapinor another, based on fusefs ..02:27
DocScrutinizeraaaah aegisfs, yeah02:27
macmaNis anyone aware of anyone working on a harmattan sftp gui client02:27
rzrdefine gui :)02:28
macmaNwell gui. as in not terminal.02:28
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rzrso forget about mc02:28
javispedrofuse is not entirely userspace02:29
javispedroso basically, forget about it02:29
DocScrutinizergood enough for me though02:29
javispedrounless you get CAP::sys_mount02:29
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: thought as much02:29
djszapiFilesystem in Userspace02:29
djszapithe damn first sentence...02:29
javispedro_most_ of it is userspace.02:30
M4rtinKit has a kernel module, doesn't it ?02:30
javispedrobut not all of it02:30
djszapiSimple installation (no need to patch or recompile the kernel)02:30
* javispedro is a microkernel fan02:30
macmaNrzr: yeah thats too slow to operate i think02:30
rzractually most of the stuff seems working except the final mount02:30
javispedroyou mean nothing is working then ;P02:30
DocScrutinizeraah, just in case you missed it:
rzrjavispedro: there is no hope to go further than that :
javispedroa true userspace filesystem would be implemented in glibc02:30
djszapimeh *shrugs*02:31
djszapiI mean I see no point in this mentioning.02:31
djszapisys_mount is of course not availble, end of the story.02:31
javispedrothe point is that fuse is a nogo either unless you get sys_mount02:31
javispedroexactly :(02:31
djszapisorry, but why are you said ?02:32
djszapiI am actually happy since if you can just inject things so easily, that would be utterly weird.02:32
djszapiand would probably mean dropping the whole security as is02:33
vadimq_no, it's be like any decent device is supposed to work, like the N900 for instance02:33
* javispedro walks away from the topic, ask rzr, he seemed to be interested.02:33
djszapivadimq_: do not use it, if you do not like it. You are not enforced ?02:34
djszapialso N900 != N9, very important and fundamental understanding.02:34
rzrthx for confirming javispedro02:34
vadimq_djszapi: Unfortunately the entire phone market is like that, so "do not use it" isn't a very practical option02:36
luke-jrN900 = crap; N9 = worse than crap02:36
djszapivadimq_: yes, I know people like you hating everything02:36
vadimq_so I'll resort to the next best thing: use the closest available option, root it, and complain everywhere that I'm very displeased at this situation02:36
rzrjavispedro: while you here, there is no other way to extends / using remote fs ? or usb02:36
* Sput actually loves his N9xx02:36
vadimq_djszapi: I like the n90002:37
* rzr likes n81002:37
Sputthe n900 was a nice and fun hacking gadget, but the N9 is an actually usable phone02:37
luke-jrN810 was ok02:37
* GeneralAntilles throws popcorns at people.02:37
vadimq_a hacking gadget is exactly what I'm looking for, though02:37
luke-jrSput: if we wanted a phone, we'd use Android02:37
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: hey :D02:37
javispedroa wedding!02:37
djszapivadimq_: use n900, move to #maemo, thanks.02:37
GeneralAntillesHey-oh, luke-jr.02:37
luke-jrvadimq_: are you like me? just want a usable handheld computer?02:38
vadimq_djszapi: already got one. Going to try a N9 too02:38
Sputluke-jr: well, there's probably cheaper options for embedded linux devices that are fully open (because they don't need to double for an enduser-ready, FCC-approved phone)02:38
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: I got no-reply'd on the N950 :/02:38
djszapivadimq_: please do not join for ranking, if you could be on #maemo, and love N900 there.02:38
luke-jrSput: no, there are currently no viable options on the market02:38
vadimq_luke-jr: exactly what I was looking for when I bought it02:38
vadimq_djszapi: I already am in #maemo02:39
luke-jrvadimq_: Milestone 3 is almost reflash-to-be-a-computer-able I think02:39
luke-jrbut it's capacitive and crap :|02:39
djszapivadimq_: then be active positively there, if you can at all...02:39
rzrbtw did u see that google released latest android sources ?02:39
vadimq_djszapi: Here's my idea for a positive contribution: My goal will be to completely root it, and do whatever I want with it02:40
rzrbut who cares here :)02:40
vadimq_that's what I plan to contribute, if I can02:40
luke-jrrzr: no way, they really did the minimum legal compliance?02:40
rzrthey did not on prev version02:40
M4rtinKwell, GTA04 from  Goldelico  seems to slowly become available :)02:40
luke-jrvadimq_: possible on N900, but it's obsolete02:40
djszapivadimq_: completely unethical purpose02:40
djszapiI am sad to see such people...02:40
luke-jrdjszapi: wtf are you smoking?02:40
vadimq_djszapi: do not care. Get annoyed all you want02:40
javispedroaegis herbal essence ;P02:41
luke-jrunethical to CONTROL YOUR OWN PROPERTY? wtf?02:41
M4rtinKbtw, what's the issue with mount credentials anyway ?02:41
djszapiluke-jr: yes, of course unethical to do what the gadget provider does not want02:41
djszapiand even in the contract or buying paper.02:41
luke-jrdjszapi: nobody is providing a gadget. you buy it, it's yours.02:41
rzrM4rtinK: i planed to use fuse02:41
luke-jrdjszapi: there is no contract or buying paper.02:41
M4rtinKIMO malvare can just easily send/download data using normal network connectivity02:42
GeneralAntillesluke-jr:, Android isn't GPL02:42
djszapiluke-jr: let Nokia keep the rights what you can do with *their* product02:42
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: the kernel has to be02:42
luke-jrdjszapi: if you buy it, it's YOUR property.02:42
djszapiluke-jr: you are not enforced to buy it in any way02:42
luke-jrnot Nokia's02:42
vadimq_djszapi: I signed no contract when buying the phone02:42
djszapiluke-jr: there *is* a contract for N950 for instance02:42
rzrM4rtinK: but it we need  fuse-utils to be friend along aegis02:42
* javispedro grabs a leftover popcorn from the floor02:42
vadimq_that's a dev phone02:42
luke-jrdjszapi: maybe. AIUI, all N950 are owned by Nokia02:42
djszapiand ranking about the device and OS via that contract *is* quite illegal02:42
vadimq_not for sale afaik02:42
djszapilook, it is very simple, you look for jailbreak02:43
djszapiwhich will cause damage for all the users if there are anything like that in public02:43
macmaNdjszapi argument is only valid for n950. there is nothing unethical about breaking store bought n9.02:43
* GeneralAntilles throws more corn at javispedro.02:43
luke-jrdjszapi: FUD02:43
djszapito my mother, father, to yours and *everybody* having this phone!02:43
luke-jrdjszapi: controlling your own property does not hurt ANYONE02:44
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, I think you're confusing legality with breaking contract.02:44
vadimq_djszapi: not my problem. I bought it, I own it, that's the end of it02:44
luke-jralso, note that in the US, jailbreaking is a legal right02:44
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, Nokia's NDAs and EULA's aren't the law.02:44
M4rtinKbtw, a historic note - on the good old Neo FreeRunner, there is ONLY the root user, no others :D02:44
luke-jrI think djszapi is confusing "controlling my own property" with "using my property to interfere with others"02:44
djszapiGeneralAntilles: Breaking the contract is *indeed* illegal02:44
luke-jrM4rtinK: bad design :p02:45
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, contract law is a separate thing from clauses of a contract being law themselves.02:45
luke-jrdjszapi: EULAs aren't valid contracts.02:45
pabs3GeneralAntilles: can I get some?02:45
M4rtinKno idea why it's like this - some optimisations maybe02:45
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, if you're going to play this game try to be accurate.02:45
rzrM4rtinK: do you still use FR ?02:45
GeneralAntillespabs3, I only have the burnt kernels at the bottom left.02:45
djszapiGeneralAntilles: not sure what you are talking about.02:45
* luke-jr 's FR won't turn on ☹02:45
M4rtinKfrom time to time02:45
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, yes, clearly.02:45
djszapiGeneralAntilles: if you break the contract, you broke it. That is the point.02:45
pabs3GeneralAntilles: hehe kernels02:45
M4rtinKbut I know people who use it as a fulltime phone02:46
djszapiand Nokia is entitled to give you a citation via the law system02:46
rzrM4rtinK: as a phone ?02:46
djszapiNokia is actually very nice because of most of these ranking trolls could get at least citation.02:46
djszapiwithout any considerations.02:46
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, do you understand the difference between criminal and civil law?02:46
macmaNas a side note re phonehax0rs, during the lifespan of the n900, was the single high profile case of something bad happening to an n900 user?02:46
M4rtinKrzr: well, not only - navigation, web browsing, Jabber02:46
javispedromacmaN: in what sense?02:46
rzrM4rtinK: qtmoko?02:47
macmaNdjszapi has claimed that fremantle was quite insecure compared to harmattan today02:47
djszapistill stick by02:47
javispedromacmaN: ah.02:47
rzrI guess he's right02:47
macmaNand this new security effort is to protect the current customers who have a huge powerhouse device in their hands but dont have a clue about what they have02:47
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, Nokia isn't "nice". Nokia's employees are rationally self-interested.02:48
djszapiGeneralAntilles: yes, I know your ranking and whining.02:48
* GeneralAntilles ranks up.02:48
* GeneralAntilles pwns you all.02:48
djszapibut seriously, I do not care. You seem to want to know better things than internals.02:48
macmaNbut during the whole lifespan of several years of n900, i dont recall a single high profile incident of something serious happening to a n900 user02:48
rzrsecurity is not always toward users or owners think of that02:48
M4rtinKBTW, my FreeRunner recently got upgraded with Navigation board v3, so it has an added 3D accelerometer, 3D gyroscope, 3D magnetometer, pressure (height) and temperature sensors :)02:48
macmaNsomething that would brought some seriously bad rep to a generally open platform02:48
M4rtinKrzr: SHR, I think02:49
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, by the way, these conversations right here are why they usually don't let engineers talk to customers.02:49
macmaNand the n900 is getting hacked to death even today02:49
rzrmacmaN: n900 hadnt fancy nfc stuff etc02:49
vadimq_M4rtinK: that's interesting, how's it working? I pondered getting one for a while. Is it usable?02:49
SputmacmaN: of course, the N900 was neither very popular not really used by "normal" people02:49
pabs3rzr: Trusted Computing is fun isn't it02:49
djszapimacmaN: how do you know Fremantle is malware free ? I know you think it is, but how do you *really* know ?02:49
M4rtinKbut Qt Moko looks very usable, I have once even met the main Qt Moko developer on a conference02:49
rzrpabs3: lafkon02:49
macmaNSput: yes, but i highly highly doubt there was a significant % of linux gurus among them like us02:50
Robot101djszapi: if there was any malware that would be *illegal*! nobody would ever do that.02:50
djszapisorry ? you seem to have no idea what happened with the kernel.org02:50
SputmacmaN: I don't think the N900 was ever a worthwhile target for your typical evil scriptkiddie02:50
djszapiwhen it was rooted02:50
macmaNdjszapi: i dont know. it doesnt matter. if something really serious happens its all over the blogs. ive been following this field for years.02:50
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, how do you know Harmattan is malware free?02:50
djszapivery good example for linux, thanks very trusted servers02:50
djszapiwhich should even be more secure than a desktop02:50 was running on n900 lol02:50
M4rtinKvadimq_: all the sensors seem to work as expected, but you had to build the drivers yourself, at least a few months ago, might have been integrated already02:50
djszapimacmaN: was "malware free" for many years02:51
djszapimacmaN: one day, it was jailbraked02:51
djszapithey said the same for years02:51
macmaNyeah, well is a longer lifespan project02:51
Sputdo they know what happened to yet?02:51
macmaNcompared to any mobile phone02:51
djszapiand what if your data on is already in the hand of the CIA ?02:51
M4rtinKvadimq_: there is also a damon for sending the data over network, wich might be quite handy given the computing power of the Neo02:51
rzrletme check if bugzilla.k.o is back02:51
macmaNif your phone survives in the open jungle for 3-4 years you have done your job well02:51
djszapijust because you do not *really* guess, it does *not* mean it is not there.02:51
djszapithat is the point of the *smart* malwares.02:52
vadimq_M4rtinK: I mean, does it actually work as a phone? Not necessarily 100% or being all polished, but stuff like not crashing randomly, not dropping calls, etc?02:52
javispedrofremantle was absolute not malware free, there were all those adware ovi store apps... oops.02:52
djszapiyou do not know your stuff is completely exploited02:52
macmaNyep true. but really, *nobody* hacking these things to death doesnt notice during all this time? i find that to be low probability.02:52
M4rtinKvadimq_: I have seen a Friend using it as a phone, multiple times :)02:53
macmaNlow enough that i think there oughta be a sensible switch to boot aegis-free harmattan if user so wishes02:53
vadimq_djszapi:  -- malware, included with the phone02:53
djszapimacmaN: seems you did not understand the reasoning above. You ignore what I wrote.02:53
M4rtinKvadimq_: he got stuck outside the house once since he could not ring me to open the door once, though :)02:53
djszapiI do not continue my reasoning, if you ignore it.02:53
macmaN"smart malware"?02:54
djszapiyes, if I steal your data, I will inform you ? Would that be smart ?02:54
djszapior get a key to your door, I would inform you before breaking ?02:54
djszapimost of the time not even after entered your room more times. You do not even dream anybody else has a key to your room...02:55
macmaNi dont get it. all the aegis people would stay fully protected.02:55
macmaNare you saying this malware will suddenly know something critical from the unlocked devices that they would not be able to know now that everything is locked?02:55
rzrplease can you paste me your n950 lines :02:55
M4rtinKvadimq_: If you want  more info, you can contact him directly - we have a Jabber MUC or I can give you his JID02:56
rzrls -l /usr/bin/fusermount  /sbin/mount.fuse02:56
djszapias I said really gazillion times, I can publish a quite malware app to fremantle ovi02:56
djszapiand I can do anything with your device I just want to.02:56
djszapiI do not even probably need OVI for that.02:56
macmaNthat is totally fine with me. i pressed the big "i accept responsibility and forfeit my 600€ cyan baby warranty"02:56
javispedrorzr: files not there02:56
rzrtrue :)02:57
rzrthose are mine02:57
djszapimacmaN: but you are *not* the only customers02:57
djszapiplease *try* to understand Nokia does not focus on people like you with N902:57
rzrthis mean I must go to sleep02:57
djszapithis is really a fundamental day 0 step02:57
macmaNso youre saying that SO many stupid people will open their device up just for fun?02:57
vadimq_M4rtinK: cool, thanks :-) And not right now, I don't think I'll be buying more stuff for some time. You just got me curious because I considered buying one before going for the N900, as back then the freerunner looked very impractical and I needed something that worked02:57
macmaNthat nokia will collapse under that weight of stupidity?02:57
javispedromacmaN: isn't that evident? they went with wp7...02:57
djszapiif you do not understand what this device is for, you will just keep whining.02:57
vadimq_djszapi: the device is for whatever I decide it is for, it's that simple02:58
M4rtinKvadimq_: well, yeah - the N900 is MUCH more polished, even now02:58
djszapivadimq_: sounds like a troll, really :)02:58
djszapiof course you can move only *inside* the frame you got.02:58
vadimq_djszapi: weird reasoning you have02:58
GeneralAntillesSo, I think we should have a vote.02:58
javispedrovote vote vote!02:59
djszapiI would never really vote on this troll channel :)02:59
* SpeedEvil votes for puppies.02:59
M4rtinKvadimq_: though the FreeRunner development still continues, though with quite a slow pace, mostly thanks to all the open drivers02:59
GeneralAntillesdjszapi seems to trip over the trolling line more often than not02:59
GeneralAntillesand the channels descends into useless noisy argument because of it.02:59
DocScrutinizeraegis malf is malware02:59
M4rtinKthere is kernel 2.6.39 and Python 2.7 on SHR by default :)02:59
macmaNheh. nokia already put a full blown linux on it. "what this device is for" that is indeed funny. i understand full well that a large majority of nokia customers just dont have a clue about anything and cyan color is the main argument.03:00
GeneralAntillesI'm a bit bored of it.03:00
Robot101GeneralAntilles: ++03:00
djszapiGeneralAntilles: who does not respect the Harmattan principles and keeps whining like you on a harmattan channel is indeed troll03:00
GeneralAntillesSo, anybody else think we should make unproductive whining about other people "whining" a kickable offense?03:00
macmaNworld does not advance by the work of stupid people and thats what disappoints me03:00
djszapiGeneralAntilles: if it happens once, it is acceptable, but every single day is *not*03:00
macmaNthe smart people are getting cut off a significant opportunity to innovate further03:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeneralAntilles03:01
djszapiand that is what has been degrading this channel from the day first03:01
M4rtinKI would say that current MALF implementation is a bit extreme, concerning all user data is lost - contacts, photos, everything03:01
macmaNfor apparently total bum reasoning03:01
macmaNi guess thats the kind of stuff that keeps us all from having nice things03:01
* javispedro decides to go to bed before the fun is spoiled03:01
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, 'night.03:01
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, you excel at escalating.03:01
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, it's boring and counter-productive.03:02
* DocScrutinizer gets a coffee and maybe some popcorn, and wonders if his brain will deal with the impact of disabling the ignore list03:02
javispedrognite folks03:02
GeneralAntillesEverybody's entitled to express their opinion.03:02
SpeedEvilNight javispedro03:02
DocScrutinizercya javispedro03:02
GeneralAntillesBut we all know your opinion03:02
GeneralAntillesand I know I'm tired of hearing about it.03:02
djszapiyou do not really have any technical good reasonings about these03:02
rzrwhile we trolling03:02
rzri have a question03:02
GeneralAntillesMy technical reasons are it's getting in the way of productive discussion.03:02
djszapiso I am not forced to accept untechnical whinings, sorry03:02
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M4rtinKdjszapi: BTW, that KDElibs build seems to be still building03:03
vadimq_mhm. I made my point and don't think there's not much left to say, so I'll be going to sleep soon too03:03
djszapilike "I like  breaking the Nokia contract I signed"03:03
rzrshould we post in talk.maemo or forum.meego ?03:03
GeneralAntillesSo, djszapi, consider this your first and only warning.03:03
djszapithis is not acceptable by me03:03
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: djzz is here to learn how we try to fsck his beloved aegis, and we are so mean not to tell him how we do it, anymore03:03
vadimq_djszapi: I signed no contract03:03
GeneralAntillesQuit the bitching about people "whining" (i.e., talking about platsec)03:03
GeneralAntillesOr you're banned.03:03
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djszapithere are no bitchings.03:04
macmaNim pretty certain this platsec topic needs to be addressed at some different level03:04
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, OK, I'm glad you have an opinion on the subject.03:04
GeneralAntillesMy warning still stands.03:04
GeneralAntillesNow, moving on, rzr has a real question.03:05
GeneralAntillesrzr, post what, exactly?03:05
djszapiI am not sure what your warning is about actually.03:05
Robot101djszapi: Nokia is perfectly competent to enforce whatever contracts they have over their customers. I imagine they will not do so, or care, for the N9, as it's hard to see what contract is being broken. this channel is for people who *want* to modify, tweak, play and possibly break their device, and are mature enough to actually appreciate that if they break it, they keep both pieces.03:05
vadimq_yes, actually I'm most interested in as much info as possible about it03:05
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, you know exactly what it's about. Quit stirring the channel into a frothy mess everything somebody mentions Aegis.03:05
Robot101djszapi: the question is, why are you actually here trying to stop people doing that? you are not part of Nokia's enforcement of any supposed contract, and nor will you *ever* convince the users of the channel they should not even try.03:06
djszapiRobot101: it does not really matter if there are 100 people wanna make a jailbreak, but many times more userbase, who would not like to see those in public03:06
rzrGeneralAntilles: posting harmattan specificities like aegis etc03:06
djszapiand that is the point! Please do not make my mother's phone more insecure in public than it is !03:06
GeneralAntillesrzr, the more technical crowd is mostly at MeeGo.com03:06
vadimq_djszapi: you're out of luck then03:06
pabs3djszapi: security by obscurity doesn't help anyone03:06
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, you and I both know it doesn't work like that.03:06
djszapiGeneralAntilles: please tell these things to people swearing about aegis03:07
djszapievery single day without any technical correctness03:07
djszapiI am really tired of that03:07
djszapiand that is what you should actually do03:07
Robot101djszapi: telling the people on this channel not to break aegis, for the good of your mother, won't stop someone breaking it. if I were you - I'd try and break it myself - and fix it. not just go mental at other people who are also testing the boundaries.03:07
djszapinot "using" your operator power to "win" a technical discussion03:07
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, tyranny of some asshole on the internet who has a bunch of other assholes who agree with him.03:07
M4rtinKoff topic: there is a square in my hometown with a bronze Aegis statue on a tall pedestal :)03:07
rzrGeneralAntilles: i was ok to use meego , but i feel this should be in the maemo place ... and let meego for open projects like CE Mer and other rpm derivates03:07
macmaNRobot101: ive learned tonight that apparently when one harmattan becomes totally open, malware writers are able to learn to do things that are able to attack everyone. also ive learned that it is *not* possible to make it difficult for the regular "what is this lunix thing?" dumbusers to open their devices, so they will likely do it by accident in masses and nokia will get mad bad press.03:07
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, end result is: I don't want to hear it.03:07
djszapireally, if you are not good to get out a technical discussion as "winner" with technical arguments, I am sorry for you03:08
djszapibut do not use more than technical arguments in a technical discussion03:08
djszapibecause it is getting really tiring.03:08
GeneralAntillesI'm not trying to win any discussion.03:08
GeneralAntillesI'm just tired of you making noise.03:08
GeneralAntillesSo, end of discussion.03:08
vadimq_djszapi: you're not making a technical discussion. Your mother isn't a technical subject :-P03:08
GeneralAntillesShut it or get the boot.03:08
M4rtinK(and there is a bigger statue of a Red Army soldier with a SMG on another square right next to it :D )03:09
macmaNwell GeneralAntilles ive gained insight and understanding from djszapi. i definitely would not vote for banning or anything him.03:09
djszapiRobot101: breaking is completely fine until you do not publish those breakages.03:09
rzrdont ban anyone03:09
djszapiRobot101: use *only* your own purpose, or report it for the platform developers to fix it.03:09
rzrjust relax and let the trollers fall asleep03:10
djszapiRobot101: everything is quite unethical03:10
vadimq_djszapi: disagree. If I do manage to break something, I will publish it03:10
GeneralAntillesrzr, this has been ongoing for months.03:10
GeneralAntillesrzr, the timeout period has long since expired.03:10
rzrmost of the time there is no activities here03:10
rzrwell i am not here 24/7 so i can not say03:10
GeneralAntillesand it's not helping that the only activity is djszapi Vs The World03:10
djszapirzr: there are mostly whining people03:10
djszapiyou can check out the logs03:10
djszapiabout aegis without any technical correctness03:11
infobotdjs is probably
rzrhe did bite me once :) but I can handle it03:11
djszapiI can grab many situations03:11
macmaNvadimq_ djszapi i think it makes no sense to discuss pros and cons of security flaws. there should be plenty of google material on that which let you apply a good decision on any given situation.03:11
pabs3djszapi: full disclosure is much more popular with security researchers, sorry:
djszapimacmaN: what is your point ?03:11
macmaNdjszapi: not you so much, more vadimq_03:11
djszapipabs3: you are *quite* wrong03:12
M4rtinKI would say that #harmattan is about the most active channel from the Maemo/MeeGo/Mer sphere03:12
djszapiQt even has its own internal mailing list for security issues03:12
macmaNM4rtinK: got any clickable stats? thats interesting03:12
djszapiGeneralAntilles: well, you know the maemo community well03:13
djszapiI would really like to avoid such trollings here.03:13
djszapiI do really prefer technical discussions...03:13
djszapiand it is said by many people, not just me.03:13
rzrbtw there was a #DeathToAegis channel once03:13
djszapiGeneralAntilles: see ? &03:13
Robot101 tbh03:13
M4rtinKmacmaN: nope - I just autojoin #maemo,#maemo-devel,#maemo-ssu,#pymaemo,#radeon,#meego-arm,#meego,#meego-python,#harmattan,#mer,#nemomobile and checkck whats new from time to time :)03:13
rzror something simillar03:13
DocScrutinizerrzr: it's just like 70% of activities here tangent aegis sooner or later, and every time some nototious spy of platsec jumps up and tears down the discussion like right now03:13
M4rtinKmacmaN: so it might be a bit subjective03:13
macmaNM4rtinK: ok i think they are all weblogged too03:13
djszapiGeneralAntilles: rzr's post is rather trollish for instance, I mean the channel03:13
djszapithose people should be warned in the first place.03:14
vadimq_macmaN: I agree, my point is that this is not a technical argument. It's a moral argument: those who feel the user's wishes are more important, vs those who think the manufaturer makes the rules03:14
djszapibecause things like this does not really make a good atmosphere (apart from among trolls)03:14
macmaNvadimq_: well nokia's biggest problem for the last decade has been management. so its no wonder there is just not enough understanding.03:14
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, it's neither productive nor appropriate for you to respond to everyone you disagree with in this channel with a long sermon about Aegis.03:15
djszapivadimq_: it /is/ a technical discussion03:15
djszapiyou abuse what technically Nokia decided.03:15
rzrI respect nokia position and users who complain03:15
djszapiand as for N950 users, it is even contracted properly which is a contract break in many cases03:15
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, I think you should probably read DocScrutinizer's link:
rzrthis is a tough world03:15
GeneralAntillesand base your decisions about whether you're having a discussion or trolling on it.03:15
djszapivadimq_: I could report many users to nokia actually here.03:15
djszapito get citation03:15
GeneralAntillesdjszapi, then do so.03:16
vadimq_djszapi: My argument is simple: what Nokia wants is irrelevant, since I own the device.03:16
GeneralAntillesOtherwise nobody's impressed by idle threats.03:16
djszapiGeneralAntilles: I do not care about Doc*03:16
djszapibut I think I will just ignore you as well03:16
djszapiwe do not have much common points.03:16
djszapibetter for both of us03:16
vadimq_djszapi: feel free to. Like I said, I have not signed any contracts with Nokia.03:16
GeneralAntillesThen do so, next time I see you ranting endlessly about the "whining" you're getting the boot, though.03:16
djszapivadimq_: it is not against you03:16
macmaNvadimq_: you have n950?03:16
Robot101hahahahaha I'd like to see Nokia lawyers come in and shut down #harmattan03:16
vadimq_macmaN: no03:17
Robot101this would make great press03:17
* rzr is feeling a bit guilty because no one talked about aegis before I joined with fuse :)03:17
Robot101please, send them03:17
djszapiGeneralAntilles: of course I will do, if people whine without any technical correctness03:17
Robot101the EFF would love it03:17
M4rtinKI can say I have not clashed witch aegis during my (quite highlevel) development work (yet) - but I'm quite sad about the lost potential features and developer time it seems to be causing03:17
djszapithe lost developer time is actually for me in many cases03:18
djszapihelping the noobs with aegis ranking03:18
djszapiwithout technical correctness03:18
djszapisometimes I spent hours with them until realizing he was just friggin noob.03:18
macmaNis there some aegis introduction document?03:18
djszapiof course03:18
rzrthat one03:18
rzr ?03:18
macmaNso your time is occupied simply because people dont read the couple of webpages?03:19
macmaNor what is the issue?03:19
djszapiM4rtinK: and quite frankely, I am tired of ranking without technical correctness03:19
djszapiM4rtinK: it has been happening here for quite a few months03:19
djszapiand 99% they are completely wrong from technical pov. I have the impression they just feed each other with this.03:19
pabs3what is this "ranking"?03:20
macmaNpabs3: +103:20
djszapimacmaN: the problem is the whining.03:20
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
M4rtinKwell, from watching the discussion here, on TMO and FMO so far, I would say people have 3 main issues with Aegis03:20
djszapimacmaN: the "dear" user wrote a completely broken script which would break on any debian distrbutions, but join the channel for saying "aegis sucks" from the minute ifrst03:21
djszapior fuck aegis(TM)03:21
djszapigazillion examples in the history of this channel like that03:21
M4rtinK1) they are not sure which credentials are needed for what 2) there are some credentials that are just not available 3) weird issues that might be caused by Aegis or not03:21
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macmaNnot sure exactly why not just let him03:21
macmaNwrite the horribly broken script03:21
djszapi1) documented 2) documented 3) mostly because people has been feeding each other with ranking from the minute first03:22
DocScrutinizerrzr: ???03:22
djszapi3) That is why it is like that. If they have not been feeding each other like that from minute first, there is no such a situation03:22
infobotrzr, you lost me03:22
macmaNdjszapi: define ranking. what does this word mean to you.03:22
djszapimacmaN: I have just told you. "Aegis sucks" "fuck aegis(TM)" and things like that after being technically completely incorrect03:23
macmaNranking means positioning things in order03:23
rzrinfobot: feel free to add that link into your TC refences03:23
infoboto/~ I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL free to add that link into your TC refences03:23
macmaNfirst, second, third03:23
djszapimacmaN: this is definitely whining.03:23
macmaNare you talking about ranting?03:23
djszapisorry, yes03:23
macmaNok well it took me a while too to come up with a solution to that one03:24
DocScrutinizeroh my gosh, she's drunk again ;-P03:24
infobotDocScrutinizer: thanks03:24
macmaNdjszapi: so how useful a general linux box would be with the same harmattan aegis put on top of that. how do you estimate the usability and popularity?03:25
DocScrutinizerrzr: the factoid already reached max length03:25
macmaNi think my computer would become half-useless to me03:25
djszapimacmaN: that is what actually and tizen do03:26
djszapiupstream aegis implementation usage.03:26
macmaNwith no off switch?03:26
djszapithat is what we did for meego one year ago03:26
djszapimacmaN: well, that is not the case if you know the linux kernel and Linus ...03:26
macmaNi need to remember to always ask about the off switch. that is the *only* issue here really.03:27
djszapiyou need to have an option in the linux kernel to be compltely unsecure...03:27
djszapimeanwhile that model makes zero sense in business03:27
djszapilike maemo, harmattan for obvious reasons.03:27
macmaNoh really? so you think development environments should also live under business restrictions?03:27
djszapimacmaN: that is an annoying habit actually03:27
macmaNim pretty certain we'd be somewhere in the 1500s policies with that right now03:27
djszapiasking that for months when *everybody* knows it is not available03:27
djszapisorry, but I do not even understand your lost remark ...03:28
djszapinot even a word ...03:28
macmaN03:27      macmaN>oh really? so you think development environments should also live under business restrictions?03:28
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macmaNignore the mid-age thing for now03:29
djszapiwhat is that supposed to mean ?03:29
macmaNit is supposed to mean that what if you wanted to develop something new or better but the security framework is so tight you simply cant do it.03:29
djszapisorry but do not force Nokia to do what you want03:29
macmaNso world will just have to do without because its secure that way?03:29
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djszapiget money, have a business, make an architecture and go with your model03:29
djszapiwe *all* know this is not the case for N9, so ranting about it for months gets really cumbersome03:30
macmaNno need to make this about nokia, i havent had a discussion about it yet, trying to learn something here in general first03:30
djszapiactually, I need to do other things, so sorry for leaving for good...03:30
macmaNit = platsec issues in general03:30
macmaNnp. ttyl.03:31
DocScrutinizerI feel like watching from the distance behind a granny standing at the quay feeding ducks. Seeing some boring occasional movement which doesn't make sense as you can't see the ducks down on the water, they are behind the quay wall.03:31
macmaNin essence it boils down to that nokia just dont have the right people anymore, rest of the manufacturers dont have the right people AT ALL03:31
macmaNso its basically up to a select group of guys to change this crap for the future with the next device or the one after that03:32
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macmaNguys like a bunch of them sitting in this channel03:33
DocScrutinizeronly that this N9 is the last device with maemo/meego03:33
macmaNyeah but its not like linux is dead. its possible to develop a new one.03:33
M4rtinKwell, that's typical - once you get it about right, why not quit ? :)03:34
DocScrutinizerand yes macmaN, *you* are the boring grany, and you're not feeding ducklings but a troll03:34
M4rtinKBTW, anyone noticed Harmattan even supports SIM Toolkit ? :)03:34
macmaNdamn am i. well one things for sure, this type of stuff is sure to give you grey hair :>03:34
DocScrutinizerwow, mardy03:35
DocScrutinizerM4rtinK: meh03:35
macmaNi just have wonder why all the other manufacturers are such a bunch of pussies03:35
macmaNhave to *03:35
DocScrutinizeryeah, really. If they weren't then they'd adopt aegis right away03:36
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djszapimacmaN: from what I know, qt security people just ban such people like some trolls above: "I will publish any jailbreak" as I find one.03:36
macmaNM4rtinK: well you cant blame a champion of going out when on top. actually thats the best way. except nokia is a huge underdog.03:37
djszapiqt security people has actually almost the same stance for managing these things as Harmattan sec people.03:37
djszapiso yes, sure ... qt people are also bad ...03:38
djszapiI know for sure ...03:38
djszapiput it mildly, qt sec would not understand GeneralAntilles's "warning" either.03:39
macmaNwell i have absolutely no side or interest in that particular opinion03:39
djszapimoreover from what I see, they sometimes are even more harsh about trolls.03:39
M4rtinKdidn't they just fix stuff like buffer overruns, remote code execution and similar bugs/issues ?03:39
* DocScrutinizer just had a funny idea: patch voicetogoog to never really stop recording and just slightly modify the URL to send the .wav to. Wonders if that would get detected by ovi store as malware then - if not then what exactly was it aegis is protecting us from?03:39
* rzr did read that interesting thread
djszapiM4rtinK: not really...03:39
macmaNre reporting security vulnerability. imho a mobile phone platsec should simply have an off switch. its not a nuclear reactor safety device.03:39
nibblerit'd be a smart choice from nokia's side (imho) if they'd enable people to port meego to their newer devices. i'd love to have the freedom of choice as concerns mobile OSes as i have with desktop computers. it would be the least expensive strategy to keep meego as an option to winmo. (if the community could sustain an effort to get adopt new hardware platforms as they appear)03:40
djszapithey /can/ port mer...03:40
djszapithere are videos about mer and PA running on N9 ...03:40
djszapiso this is again technically incorrect03:40
macmaNyep mer is good stuff03:40
djszapimacmaN: except that anybody could switch that off03:41
M4rtinKthe recent videos look pretty cool03:41
djszapiso any malwares, and there you go into the valley....03:41
macmaNdjszapi: oh you mean its impossible to enforce it to be 150% user choice? that i did not understand from before.03:41
DocScrutinizermacmaN: just that the way aegis works you would taint the rootfs almost inevitably which in turn leads to03:41
infobotmalf is, like,
djszapimacmaN: and at any rate, we had proposal *18* months ago03:42
DocScrutinizernext time you switch security on again03:42
djszapiso you are talking to a person who went through these things 18 months ago03:42
macmaNDoc ack03:42
djszapijust FYI03:42
macmaNdjszapi can you give me yes/no to my last q?03:42
djszapiI do not really understand your last question...03:43
macmaNi thought you said if user can switch it off, then malware can switch it off03:43
macmaNso i ask there is no way to make absolutely sure it is the users concious choice to switch it off?03:43
DocScrutinizersure there is03:44
djszapibut that way is just impossible03:44
DocScrutinizerask for a password03:44
djszapiin the practice03:44
M4rtinKwell, won't malware won't get there in the first place while it is ON ?03:44
djszapiHowever, as I said, I went through these things 18 months ago03:44
macmaNdjszapi and this proposal and discussion is not visible i assume?03:45
DocScrutinizeraegis is not protecting the user, it's not even designed to be able to do this03:45
djszapiso you are asking the same questions I did one and half a year ago03:45
djszapimacmaN: internal development is not visible of course03:45
macmaNi would definitely not be wasting your night if i could actually read a web page somewhere03:45
DocScrutinizerau contraire, aegis is a htreat to users, only thing it protects is the PLATFORM security, for "third party apps that need a secure platform" - secure *from you*03:45
djszapithere is nothing for your to read apart from trust me03:46
djszapiranting every single day, every single hour about open mode make people frustrated including me03:46
djszapisince it is just so far from reality.03:46
macmaNthat is a side effect of people being used to different approaches03:47
DocScrutinizerit is incredibly easy to write malware that spies on you, without aegis compöaining. And it's even more easy to write malware that exploits aegis to brick your device03:47
djszapiand why not spend the time with real reality questions ?03:47
djszapiI personally prefer the real problems for solivngs.03:47
macmaNsure. but the answers are "no cant be done" because platsec forbids it..03:47
djszapithat have solutions.03:47
djszapithat is a completely valid answer03:48
djszapimove on...03:48
rzrdjszapi: have u seen that video i've paste upper ?03:48
djszapino sorry, I do not have for watching videos right now03:49
rzrthat one is short03:49
rzrnot more03:49
macmaNperhaps i will. perhaps i put some effort into finding out more. depends on what i calculate to be potential profitability to me.03:49
rzrtake it on your irc time :)03:49
DocScrutinizerooh a video... wait, I got one too03:49
djszapioh yes, I saw that video like 2 years ago03:50
djszapior maybe a bit more03:50
rzrdocScrutinizeryou freedom hater03:50
djszapiquite silly tbh :D03:50
M4rtinKgoogle video still works ?03:50
rzrnot on harmattan :)03:51
rzrmy link is will show on fennec on harmattan :)03:51
djszapiso my summar is this before off to my work: Ranting about changing Nokia policies every single hour makes no sense03:51
djszapidealing with problems that can be solved makes completely sense03:51
macmaNdjszapi is any of the platsec people blogging? harmattan developer blog was just recently opened. what would it cost one of the guys to educate us with some reasoning about the choice.03:52
djszapigood night guys03:52
M4rtinKrzr: shame mobile Opera currently does not support HTML5 vide/audio at all03:52
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macmaNi should probably ask that directly from the maintainers of the lbog03:54
DocScrutinizerrzr: :-D now I got it03:54
DocScrutinizerrzr: added your *free* stuff under my former bookmark ;-)03:55
rzrI did the french subtitles03:56
rzrif it matters03:56
rzrI made ...03:56
rzrnow i must sleep03:56
rzrmy English need to be reloaded03:56
M4rtinKnice video :)03:56
M4rtinKquite spot on03:56
rzr    http://www.BigBrotherState.com03:57
M4rtinKgn :)03:59
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macmaNok put up a request for platform sec article on n9 dev blog
macmaNhopefully lavonious will see the comments on the first article04:13
SpeedEvilA hell of a lot of the fundamental problems could have been averted by more docs.04:13
SpeedEvil'these are the things you can't do' This is why.04:14
SpeedEvilAs otherwise technical questions get mixed with policy questions.04:14
SpeedEvilAnd 'can I x' instead of having a simple yes/no answer goes into an unproductive policy discussion.04:15
M4rtinKand maybe use-cases blocked by current platform security configuration ?04:16
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SpeedEvilAnd what putting the device in 'open' mode actually means to existing software on the platform.04:18
M4rtinKUSB Host, pulseudio improvements, FUSE, drivers missing from Kernel, just from top of my head04:19
djszapi04:16 < M4rtinK> and maybe use-cases blocked by current platform security configuration ? -> makes no sense04:19
djszapisince you cannot predict all the things.04:19
M4rtinKgot that mixed04:19
djszapiway very bad approach. Imho, it should list what you can do, and that is done!04:19
M4rtinKof course you can't list wat your settings block04:19
djszapiwho cares about usb host for instance inside nokia04:19
djszapinobody, so how could we document that, if there is no interest in that ?04:20
djszapiit makes no sense04:20
djszapi04:15 < SpeedEvil> And 'can I x' instead of having a simple yes/no answer goes into an unproductive policy discussion.04:20
djszapisame answer for this question since it is the same thing04:20
M4rtinKI agree its quite a minor usecase04:20
djszapiwe cannot say y/n for things04:20
djszapiwe can yes for what works, and that *is* there.04:20
djszapiso imho it is perfect.04:21
M4rtinKBTW, used usb host on N900 this evening to check out a nearby deadrop on my way home :)04:22
djszapiM4rtinK: you need own kernel for that on n900, it is not any different on N9 either ...04:22
djszapialso, you can use an avr chip for that anyway04:22
M4rtinKI agree that in this phase of the development cycle, I would be pretty wary of breaking something important04:22
M4rtinKand some usecases needing the open-mode are also quite minor04:23
djszapiM4rtinK: meh, gtk-fremantle build reservers the current workers...04:23
SpeedEvildjszapi: It is quite different. On the n900, if you use a different kernel, the rest of the platform continues to work.04:23
M4rtinKbut on the other hand used by advanced users/developers, that quite literary move the platform forward04:24
djszapisame applies on N9. There is *no* difference04:24
djszapialso, *dejavu*, I told it many times previously.04:24
djszapitested, worked oob04:24
djszapiM4rtinK: please stop repeating it all the way around04:24
M4rtinKwell, I seem  to remeber a thread reporting that it worked quite ok after just recompiling the kernel04:24
SpeedEvildjszapi: If you swap the kernel out, then aegis gets upset, and all of the existing account-based stuff goes read-only.04:25
djszapiit is not a hacker platform, period04:25
SpeedEvilIt superficially seems to work, but doesn't.04:25
SpeedEvilIncoming messages, for example do not work.04:25
djszapiokay, sure you know better than us who tested it04:25
SpeedEvil(at least, based on reports)04:25
SpeedEvilOk - if that's supposed to work - great - I've been misinformed.04:25
djszapiM4rtinK: this is the case when I give up, see ? Some external wants to know better than the internals who actually tested it out :)04:25
djszapiSpeedEvil: as I said, you can even use AVR chip without changing the kernel04:26
SpeedEvilAnd how do we know this?04:26
djszapiand that is the way of going04:26
SpeedEvilSure - you know about the internal testing.04:27
djszapiSpeedEvil: told you many times really04:27
SpeedEvilSorry for my misunderstanding.04:27
djszapiI told it many times on IRC, published on forums and so on.04:27
djszapiwhat else can I do more ?04:28
M4rtinKdjszapi: weird, I don't remember triggering a rebuild - anyway, all the other builders are idle so it should be OK04:28
djszapiM4rtinK: not really, kdelibs would like to run paralel04:28
djszapiand imho, slower this way :p04:28
djszapiand I would say kdelibs should unfortunately build alone since it is a heavy stuff04:29
M4rtinKdjszapi: I see 34 free slots, that should be enough even for KDE04:29
djszapiwell, all I see is timeout during the build04:30
DocScrutinizersorry to smash your dreams, but using open mode definitely inevitably will result in a possibly tainted rootfs and consequently:04:30
infobotfrom memory, malf is
DocScrutinizeron next time you try to use "normal mode" aka secure mode04:30
M4rtinKhmm, seems to come from rzr's repo04:30
djszapiyes, and I do not see 34 free workers in that repository.04:31
DocScrutinizerthat's why no aegis-on/off switch ever will appear from Nokia04:31
M4rtinKbut the source files have not been changed04:31
M4rtinKdjszapi: ?04:32
djszapithat is not 34 ;)04:33
djszapibut either way, I do not understand that graph actually, how I need to read that04:33
DocScrutinizerthat's because aegis has a conceptual failure: it doesn't actively block all possible threats like changing files in /etc, rather it *detects changed* files and goes "NANANA! please reflash, this system is tainted"04:34
DocScrutinizerit's too good you could say04:34
djszapias for me it is weird scheduling 15% of the stuff is actually working, and the other 85% is idle. this is not what I would expect04:34
djszapiI would not expect idle resources.04:34
djszapiat least not in that big amount.04:34
DocScrutinizeror it was built with too little self-esteem so doesn'T trust in own capabilities to keep malware from changing things, and so resorts to brushing up the pieces after thing dropped and broke04:35
M4rtinKI did see once KDElibs eat all slots, so something seems to be broken now04:35
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DocScrutinizerbut then OTOH, see purpose of aegis:04:36
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
DocScrutinizerfor "making sure that the platform meets the requirements" it isn't sufficient to block malware realtime, you also have to check system integrity from a possible open mode yesterday, and that'S what aegis does and what really pisses us all off04:38
DocScrutinizerwhile we yet have to see those third party apps that "require a safe execution environment"04:38
DocScrutinizerI mean we not even have flash that might get "recorded" when somebody was able to mess with the video streaming hw and tap it04:39
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DocScrutinizernot to mention any DRM content that could playback on device04:40
djszapiM4rtinK: just as usual ;-)04:41
DocScrutinizeractually Nokia assured several times aegis was NOT about DRM. So wtf *are* those third party apps then, and why the heck would they "need a safe execution environment"?04:41
M4rtinKgn :)04:44
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* SpeedEvil sighs.04:47
DocScrutinizeraegis is the solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and thus nobody will miss it if it ever would vanish04:48
SpeedEvilOr whateve it was.04:48
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DocScrutinizermelt-me yes04:48
DocScrutinizerI guess melt-me will be based on bsd and closed, so they can do whatever they want. If not, then they are outright silly over at Nokia, as there's no use in FOSS and GPLed sw when you then try to lock it down again as much as possible, Better use sth you don't have to disclose first instance04:50
DocScrutinizerHARM + aegis is an inherently schizoid concept04:52
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DocScrutinizerwb GeneralAntilles04:53
GeneralAntillesHooray for updates.04:53
GeneralAntillesDamn the reboots, though.04:54
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NirkusAnssi138: so, n9 is the new macintosh? :)10:44
Anssi138Nirkus, i have to agree with that one, it looks lot like that classic mac advert   :)10:49
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Nirkusas we got started on the n9 anyway.. just got one to play around, any pointers on where to find real documentation instead of the how to move your finger on the display ones? for starters, i am trying to find a terminal and ssh app..11:18
SpeedEvilsettings -> something, and enable dev-mode11:19
SpeedEvilAlso all the subsequent apps that appear in that menu once you reboot11:19
SpeedEvilAnd I thoght the shell was there anyway11:20
Nirkusah, ok...found that developer mode switch but no doc on what it actually doees11:20
SpeedEvilIt enables certain packages, including ssh11:21
Nirkusso it does enable the smart in smartphone? :)11:21
SpeedEvilIt depends.11:22
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
SpeedEvilSome of this may be inaccurate.11:23
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petterii think eagis is quite neat system11:26
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SpeedEvilIn concept, yes.11:27
SpeedEvilIn execution, it misses significant point, as it's not a user-security solution.11:27
SpeedEvilIt's a platform security.11:27
petterihow so?11:28
NirkusSpeedEvil: thanks, will read through that... but my employer may see this as a little OT :D so, later today11:29
SpeedEvilI think the concept is an interesting one, and potentially valueable from a user-security, and a community software POV.11:30
SpeedEvilBut the permissions are not fine-grained enough, and on occasion are ridiculous.11:31
SpeedEvilFor example, it's possible to flash the camera flash with no credentials, yet it's utterly impossible to ever get the credential to tell the system daemon to flash the notification LED in your own pattern.11:32
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SpeedEvilAegis had a point when it was to be in the next billion nokia smartphones, not so much now.11:33
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petterii haven't run to any problems my self yet. For me the concept seems really nice. It solves the problems that I have encoutered using linux on desktop for years (or tries to solve, as there may be bugs :))11:34
petteriSpeedEvil: you know that is not used for the next billion?11:35
SpeedEvilMeltimi you mean?11:35
SpeedEvilI meant it was designed at a point in time, when it was expected it would take over from symbian.11:35
SpeedEvilNot that it would be in meltimi.11:35
petteriok, i had the imporession that melteni is maemo 7 for dummy phones11:36
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djszapiX-Fade: most of them are struggling:
djszapithey are just teh consequence of a blocked rebuild. Some underneath dependency were changed probably. If the worked previously, what can go wrong with them :/12:54
djszapiis the c-obs supposed to handle that many packages simultanuously ?12:54
X-Fadedjszapi: It will work out eventually.12:54
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: ping, finally12:55
X-FadeZogG_laptop: ponged you yesterday :)12:55
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ZogG_laptopX-Fade: didn't see it thru log or maybe i had terrible timeouts =\12:55
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: i have tons of questions about apps formeego12:56
ZogG_laptopand proposals12:56
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Good, good.12:57
ZogG_laptopi wonder if there is place to post it12:57
ZogG_laptopand i mean not forum but more kinda bug tracker12:57
gabriel9we could make some place :)12:57
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: btw apps in client =! apps on thru web and as i installed one, no icon is showen, and lunch does nothing =) just tried now12:58
X-FadeZogG_laptop: For the site, we currently use this ourselves:
ZogG_laptopi want to post propasal about testing and about deprecation/mainataining12:59
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: im not talking about packages, i'm talking about client and system itself12:59
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Shall I start a thread about Testing on talk?12:59
djszapiX-Fade sorry, but what do you mean ?12:59
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djszapifrom what I can see, most of them are just worker wasters.13:00
ZogG_laptopor it is for client =)13:00
djszapior maybe, they do not have free workers ?13:00
djszapibut why not logging that properly then instead of a mysterious nothing ?13:01
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Ok, you need to use more words. Go ahead, explain it :)13:01
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: issue i posted or ideas?13:04
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ZogG_laptopX-Fade: first of all i think we do need configuration.13:05
ZogG_laptopas we would have it we should add testng mode13:05
X-FadeZogG_laptop: I really do not know what to make of your issue there :)13:05
ZogG_laptoptesting mode would show apps for testing or version for testiing13:06
jabisrZr: ping13:06
X-FadeZogG_laptop: It does.13:06
X-FadeZogG_laptop: But one topic at a time.13:06
X-FadeZogG_laptop: I can not parse the proposal you typed here:
ZogG_laptopfor example - X-Fade the UI is not desinged sace smart13:07
X-FadeZogG_laptop: What does that mean?13:07
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: ok , sorry had a call so last sentences is actually makes no sence13:08
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: when i go in to app13:08
ZogG_laptopi see the black area with screenshots and icon and name13:08
ZogG_laptopand stars as well13:08
ZogG_laptopand description under13:08
ZogG_laptopso screenshot looks small cause of icon and stars taking space13:09
ZogG_laptopi think the screenshot area should be separeted13:09
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You can enlarge the screenshot by clicking on it. (Although we have a bug there)13:09
djszapi -> sorry, but what is this ? Can we just remove ?13:10
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: didn't work last time as well why would i want to enlarge it one by one?13:10
ZogG_laptopi want to scroll thru them13:10
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: u need to see how it works in installoous/cydia/app store13:10
ZogG_laptopfor the screenshots13:10
ZogG_laptopit's really more nice, the affet of going around with screenshots we have is nice but it's useless then if i need to enlarge one by one13:11
ZogG_laptopmaybe preview should be small with one two screnshot but screenshots should be full scrensize (i mean my phone from cliennt big)13:12
X-FadeWe can play with the size a bit, that is no big deal.13:13
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: it would be nicer if i would make kinda mockup as i see it more effective13:13
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: and you would decide if i was wrong or write =)13:13
ZogG_laptopas well about testing mode, i have an idea13:14
X-FadeZogG_laptop: It is qml, the source is out there. You can play with it if you want?13:15
ZogG_laptopif you enable testinf mode you can see apps in testing and testing versions (if app doesn have stable as well)13:15
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ZogG_laptopX-Fade: di'm not a coder =(13:15
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: anyway back to testing13:15
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Well mockups would work too.13:16
ZogG_laptopi think client should install only stable apps thru repos13:16
ZogG_laptopand tessting apps thru simple download13:16
ZogG_laptopi'll explaine myself13:16
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Problem is that you then don't get aegis credentials.13:16
ZogG_laptopfor example there is foo-bar 1.1 and it's stable13:17
ZogG_laptopit shows me 1.1 in client13:17
ZogG_laptopif i do enable test mode it adds test version 1.2 e.g.13:17
ZogG_laptopbut it wouldn't update app13:17
X-FadeThat is how it works now?13:18
ZogG_laptopas repo of testing wouldn't be syncing13:18
ZogG_laptopbut in client i would be able to install it13:18
ZogG_laptopor... i can turn on trust on testing for this app and it would push notifications13:19
ZogG_laptopor install it will update13:19
X-FadeInstall will update it.13:19
ZogG_laptopand about deprecated, i bet there would be apps that devs would left it should say that they are deprecated13:20
X-FadeThe client sees apps in Testing as different apps when in testing mode.13:20
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: that's the problem if it would update13:20
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Why, the user clicked on install?13:21
ZogG_laptopfor example i want to test only foo-bar but if you say it would update it would udate all apps in stable that have greater version in testing13:21
X-FadeIt will never automatically update.13:21
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: are you familiar with gentoo and overlays?13:21
X-Fadeyou, will always have to click on something for that one app to update.13:22
X-Fadeharmattan has no automatic update13:22
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: oh, than it's working as i see it =)13:22
X-Fadeif you disable testing, the updates will also just go away.13:22
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: so actually client can't make update all?13:23
ZogG_laptopi got lost13:23
X-FadeIt will, when you tell it to.13:23
X-FadeBut it won't automatically.13:23
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: oh thati understand13:23
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: but if i do udate all it would udate all apps right?13:24
X-FadeSo you have the power to mess things up yourself :)13:24
X-FadeZogG_laptop: if you use the package manager and use update all then yes.13:24
X-FadeBut then you get yourself into that mess.13:24
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: that's what i'm talking about13:24
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: we can prevent it13:24
X-FadeNo, we can't.13:24
X-FadeSingle package downloads don't work, because you don't get the right aegis credentials.13:25
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: the update would work only on stable versions13:25
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: ok i'll explaine it to you other way13:26
X-FadeJust because you have a gun, it doesn't mean you have to aim it at your foot.13:26
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: are you familiur with gentoo and portage?13:26
X-FadeZogG_laptop: That does not matter.13:26
ZogG_laptopupdating app by app is not a solution13:26
X-FadeZogG_laptop: I know what you are trying to do and I'm telling you aegis.13:26
X-Fadenotice.. aegis13:26
ZogG_laptopi want to test certain apps but if it would mess the whole thing, i wouldn't so who would test if noone wants to mess ? =)13:27
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: i don't understand how aegis would prevent me13:27
X-FadeZogG_laptop: If you enable testing, use the client to install an app and disable testing, I see no problem.13:27
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: We will have an aegis policy giving the *repo* certain credentials.13:28
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: that's my point, it just no need in turn on/off testing that's it13:28
X-FadeSo users won't have to allow untrused repos.13:28
X-FadeI really don't see the problem.13:29
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: you didn't get me13:29
ZogG_laptopapp would work with stable versions repo only13:29
ZogG_laptopthat has all persimission and aegis if you said you can get iit for apps.formeego.org13:29
X-FadeZogG_laptop: I think what you really want is a switch in the client, which does add and remove the repo.13:29
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: no i don't want that switch13:30
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: Ok, so you have an app which uses GRP::video.13:30
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: the stable would have repo right? so even from harmattan app manager i can update13:30
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: This is in stable and gets the credential from there.13:31
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ZogG_laptopso basiclly client only adds
X-FadeZogG_laptop: No you want to download a single file for testing.13:31
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Now the app doesn't work.13:31
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: so it's jsut official community repo right and it works like other repos13:32
ZogG_laptopbut for testing-community we wouldn't use repo at all13:32
X-FadeZogG_laptop: But we will have more ceredentials.13:32
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Then you need to ask everybody who wants to test to go to developer mode.13:32
X-FadeZogG_laptop: That is no solution.13:32
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: but how we would test apps than, i don't get it13:33
ZogG_laptopi think testers should be people who knows what they do13:33
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Then they should not click on update all.13:33
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Really, you are making it more complicated than needed :)13:34
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: so if i have 200 apps you want me to update one by one?13:34
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You can only test one app at a time, right?13:34
X-FadeZogG_laptop: And after you have done testing, you just disable testing?13:34
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: maybe we are talking about different testing thing, i'm talking about stable/unstable versions13:35
X-FadeZogG_laptop: We have this workflow:  your home project -> Testing -> Stable13:35
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ZogG_laptopand to understand if it's working right and doesn't mess your phone you need ore than just once turn it on13:35
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: So you can play with the app all you want in your home, when you think it is ok, you send it to testing.13:35
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ZogG_laptopX-Fade: exactly, so if i want to test new mega-fart-app to vote for pushing it for stable13:36
ZogG_laptophow does it workk?13:36
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You push it to Testing.13:37
X-FadeZogG_laptop: There people can do:
melleHi all, does anyone know what the 'swype for fast typiong' functionality is which is supposed to be in PR1.1? Is it related to the android swipe functionality?13:37
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ZogG_laptopX-Fade: if you heard the story about bumblee(optmus on linux) deleting /usr/ dir caue of extra space in script you would understand that sometimes author can just miss something and it would mess up13:37
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: Sure, but that is the risk you take when you want to test something.13:38
matrixxmelle: it's Swype, like in:
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Like the notice says.13:38
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: ok, all i asked is to keep cleint the same and work as community repo with aegis permisions13:38
matrixxmelle: can be enabled from settings iirc13:38
X-FadeZogG_laptop: And testing will ensure that end-users won't have that problem.13:38
mellematrixx: can't find an option to get it to work13:38
ZogG_laptopbut all i want is to add to client to check if there is unstable version and just show the link for it, that's all13:39
mellenvrmind, got it13:39
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Can't parse that again. Can you explain?13:39
mellematrixx: thanks13:39
matrixxmelle: great :=13:39
mellefor future ref: it's under settings > time and language (obviously :P)13:39
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: stable apps would work like the official harmattan client, same their and here just community repo right?13:40
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: You mean store?13:41
ZogG_laptopso if i do global update doesn't matter from where it updates stable things only so no warries and no need for dev mode13:41
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: yes like store13:41
ZogG_laptopor pack maanager13:41
ZogG_laptopdoesn't matter13:41
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Where you need to visit all your 200 apps every time to check if there is an update?13:41
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: no updates pushed thru notifications?13:42
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Not in store.13:42
ZogG_laptopwho made this one store =)))13:42
ZogG_laptopepic fail =)13:43
X-FadeBut we will have updates as we are a proper repo.13:43
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ZogG_laptopthat's what i don't want to change13:44
ZogG_laptopall i want to add to client the option for client to check not thru repo but client itself if there is test version of certain package13:45
ZogG_laptopand proovide download thru web link13:45
ZogG_laptopthat's it13:45
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ZogG_laptopit will show like - you have 1.1 \n latest - 1.2 - update n\ testing - 1.3 - test it \n\13:46
ZogG_laptopso the testing version would be made not with repo13:46
ZogG_laptopbut client of server13:46
X-FadeZogG_laptop: But then the app won't run and you can't update it.13:46
X-FadeZogG_laptop: As it comes from a different package domain.13:47
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: u don't get me at all man13:47
ZogG_laptopwhy it would b different domain?13:48
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You can't install apps that come from a different package domain.13:48
X-FadeZogG_laptop: domain in these terms is repo signed by a certain key.13:48
X-FadeZogG_laptop: As soon as you download a deb directly from the web it is _unsigned_13:48
X-FadeZogG_laptop: And thus is not given the credentials.13:49
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: you saying to keep only stable in repo, that means to make push for stable really hard13:49
ZogG_laptopi mean to have 2 repos stale and unstable13:49
ZogG_laptopthat client woould use only stable13:49
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You want 2 repos, but the client not be able to switch?13:50
ZogG_laptopand server would notify client if there is greater version in unstable and show me just a link of it and ask if i really want to installl it?13:50
X-FadeZogG_laptop: And how would you install the app then?13:50
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: i want 2 repos but client using only stable13:50
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: in developer mode as i want to be tester13:51
X-FadeZogG_laptop: That is unacceptable and far worse than enabling the testing repo.13:51
ZogG_laptopi just don't want to test appp t google for project home nd search for deb and dependisies13:51
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Also, you won't be notified about a stable update after that.13:51
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: gentoo's portage is much better than any binary packages i can see it now clearly =)13:52
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Work with what you have, don't waste time on telling other things are better. As you can't change it anyway :)13:53
ZogG_laptopdidn't know it was impossible13:54
ZogG_laptopwhat can i do?13:54
X-FadeThink about ways to make the good things outweigh the bad things?13:55
ZogG_laptopthat's was my purpose13:56
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: ok and if we add -testing to all testing apps? so it would be installed as separete app?13:57
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You have to understand that the app itself doesn't install packages.13:58
ZogG_laptopso it would keep stable unchaged?13:58
X-FadeZogG_laptop: That is packagemanager.13:58
ZogG_laptopclien is kinda packmanager =)13:59
X-FadeThe client only lists data and then tells the package manager service to install it.13:59
ZogG_laptopbut OBS is for building packages, can't we add test flag that would change the package to testing-package?14:00
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Why would you need to do that?14:00
ZogG_laptopok i'm developer14:00
ZogG_laptopi made un update fr my up14:00
X-FadeZogG_laptop: You want to have the stable app and an experimental app installed side-by-side?14:01
ZogG_laptopbut i want it to be tested before it's proven to be stable14:01
ZogG_laptophow do ii do that?14:01
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Tested by whom?14:01
ZogG_laptopi want people to test it14:01
ZogG_laptopby users who want to help me to push it to stable14:01
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Then just push you app to Testing?14:02
ZogG_laptoplike in maemo we had no eagis so we had test repo14:02
ZogG_laptopX-Fade: and who test and how?14:02
X-FadeZogG_laptop: We have it now too?14:02
X-FadeIt is the same as extras-testing?14:02
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Check that link I pasted?14:02
ZogG_laptophmm i have it enalebd =)14:06
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ZogG_laptopbut still i think it's too complicated14:10
ZogG_laptopto enable testing =\14:10
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Yes, that is why I said we needed a switch inside the app.14:10
ZogG_laptopit's pitty deb repos don't have mask flags14:11
ZogG_laptopto mark it stable unstable14:11
ZogG_laptopper app or globaly14:11
ZogG_laptopbtw i can't see that 4 apps in client14:12
ZogG_laptoponly unstable apps14:12
X-FadeZogG_laptop: Uninstall testing enabler.14:12
ZogG_laptopi can see both now right?14:13
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ZogG_laptopi can't*14:19
X-FadeZogG_laptop: No, one or the other.14:19
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X-FadeZogG_laptop: At least that makes it more clear that you are in testing.14:30
X-FadeZogG_laptop: But as said, we need a switch. And time.14:30
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Stecchinoanyone know where I can find a complete doc for tracker ontologies? has broken <img> entries to critical stuff14:43
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dm8tbrcorecode: works for me just fine. next!15:06
corecodedoes it?15:06
dm8tbrcorecode: search the channel logs for mc-tool15:06
corecodemuchas gracias15:08
corecodegabble also works then for voice?15:08
dm8tbrhaven't tried15:08
corecodewhat telepathy-gabble version is included?15:09
dm8tbrdpkg -l?15:09
corecodei don't have the handset yet15:09
corecodebut yes, that would have been my try15:10
corecodebecause fremantle has an old version that doesn't work with current google talk anymore15:10
corecodethat's good15:12
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melleHi guys, question about swype again... I have enabled it (time and languages > enable swype), but i can't seem to use it when composing messages... Did anyone figure out how to get this to work?15:42
mgedminswipe horizontally across the keyboards to select between swype and "normal" input methods15:43
mgedminor use the same control panel to make swype default15:43
mellemgedmin: got it! thx!15:44
dm8tbrswiping the keyboard 'layouts' is tricky in my experience15:44
melledm8tbr: yeah, it seems it worked better before the update...15:44
* SpeedEvil is quite unsure of the benefits of skype over more hardware buttons.15:44
mgedminswiping is tricky15:45
* SpeedEvil is terminally confused, and has no clue anymore.15:45
melleI'm going to give it a try for a week15:45
* SpeedEvil just woke up.15:45
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* SpeedEvil wonders if his other platform does swype15:46
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mgedminhave you tried swiping while reading in bed? with the device at various random orientations? with the vkb open?15:47
mgedminit's insane15:47
mgedminI never know which direction will close my app15:47
SpeedEvilmgedmin: yes.15:47
SpeedEvilmgedmin: For added fun - portrait or landscape only apps.15:48
mgedmin(apparently it's the direction where the accelerometer points down)15:48
merlin1991one reason why I disabled that swipe down to close thingy15:48
mellei think that's pretty clear actually...15:48
mgedminmerlin1991, can't do that in PR1.115:48
mgedminwell, unless you install extra software15:48
merlin1991I kept closing apps swiping from the visual side15:48
w00tyou can, install swipemanager15:48
mgedminwhich I should maybe do15:48
mgedminthank you for reminding me about the name of that extra software :)15:48
melleswipemanager is nice, but only for sliding left and right...15:49
merlin1991isn't it in some config file wich one can edit?15:49
mellemerlin1991: you can install swipemanager, run it once and uninstall it15:49
merlin1991I can also ssh in vi the config file and be happy ;)15:49
mellemerlin1991: if you have some extra time, and you're confident enough to keep the config file intact... ;)15:51
merlin1991hm mcompsitor.conf does not look like the one mentioned in the old posts about swipe down15:54
merlin1991melle: do you have it disabled?15:54
melleI have swipe-down enabled, swipe-left shows the menu, swipe-right shows the open tasks15:55
DocScrutinizerget true find15:55
DocScrutinizerchange a setting15:55
merlin1991could you pastebin your ~/.config/mcompositor/mcompsitor.conf ?15:55
DocScrutinizerfind / -mtime -115:55
melleI think these settings reflect my mental model more... :)15:55
mellemerlin1991: gimme a min15:56
SpeedEvilAfter playing with swipe for a few days, I think I preferred the n900, with the camera-button shortcut to the switcher15:56
DocScrutinizerdefinitely, SpeedEvil15:57
SpeedEvilMaybe a hardware issue, but several times, it's killed stuff on false-swipes.15:57
melleSpeedEvil: Yep, but what i miss most is the keyboard...15:57
SpeedEvilThat too.15:57
melleCan't get used to texting on a display...15:57
SpeedEvilI recently somewhat defected, and have an android tablet - a cheap one as a gift.15:58
melle(That's why I'm trying Swype now...)15:58
SpeedEvilThe voice input is surprisingly usable for some stuff.15:58
DocScrutinizerportrait vkbd is basically useless, by physical laws and screen real estate15:58
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: not with hands my size15:58
merlin1991i can write on it quite fast15:59
DocScrutinizerI need like 3 min to enter wlan password15:59
SpeedEvilMixed case is a problem15:59
DocScrutinizerhonestly I'd prefer the usual 12key phone kbd with ABC on 2, DEF on 3 etc, over this portrait thing with its tiny buttons16:01
DocScrutinizerOTOH shell is worthless in landsacape mode as e.g with less you just see 2 (wrapped, so 4) lines of syslog at a time, rest of screen eaten by kbd16:02
DocScrutinizereven worse: I guess less will still think it has to scroll a "whole screen" worth of lines on hitting space, incl the invisible lines under kbd16:04
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djszapiX-Fade: how can it be 250 blocked packages again ?
DocScrutinizerI'm not sure about that, CBA to check16:04
djszapisomeone is spamming our community repository or c-obs bug ?16:04
djszapi1) someone is pushing core packages without any approvals from others 2) There is some bug in c-obs.16:05
X-Fadedjszapi: libxml2?16:06
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djszapiX-Fade right now that, but I think that was not the root cause.16:06
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djszapiX-Fade: this has been happening for half a day, and I do not understand why everything gets rebuilt. I am not putting clearly in the community repository description, please do not push core packages without approvals.16:07
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Stskeepscheck osc jobhistory16:08
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djszapiokay. Edited the description: modulo approval of the others is a must have for pushing core packages in the future.16:09
X-Fadedjszapi: It only triggers rebuilds like that when something really important changed.16:09
X-FadeSo probably something libxml2 depends on.16:10
djszapiX-Fade: I think it even changed under libxml216:10
djszapibut yeah, that is the minimum layer of the change.16:10
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djszapiX-Fade: can it not be a cross-worked "deadlock" ?16:11
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djszapiSay, there were 38 jobs in parallel and some fundamental package of those got a worker for working really late.. so everything is starting again.16:11
djszapidoes obs have this layer analyzes and prioritization according to that analyzes ?16:12
djszapiwhen a pending package gets a worker for building.16:12
X-FadeNo, it doesn't start a build when a dependency isn't ready.16:12
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X-FadeYou can see that with the blocked packages.16:13
djszapiso if a dependency is in the waiting queue, it realizes that ?16:13
X-FadeThey wait on xml2.16:13
djszapiyes, but there are not full waiting queue16:13
djszapiI would like to make sure it is not a waiting queue issue16:13
X-FadeNah, this is what OBS is good at. Look at human error first.16:14
djszapi -> this is the jobhistory, btw16:14
djszapiit happened this morning.16:14
djszapiand then almost everything got rebuilt, and again this16:14
djszapimeaning that my kdelibs was shut down after 4-5 hours build, and could not really get the chance to build again16:15
X-FadeIt builds a tree of dependencies each time a build succeeds.16:17
djszapiis there an option for the c-obs to "lock" pushing for anybody ?16:18
X-Fadedjszapi: Sure, remove them as maintainer?16:18
djszapiit would even be more ideal if it could be tied to a certain package build readyness16:18
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djszapisince interrupting kdelibs by 80% (4-5 hours build) is ... well :)16:18
djszapiX-Fade: I need to add them manually again16:19
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djszapifor every single such a situation.16:19
X-Fadedjszapi: crashing or killed worker should not matter, it automatically gets rescheduled then?16:20
djszapiX-Fade yeah, if everything rebuilds, and then kdelibs can start it all over from the beginning again.16:20
X-FadeIf a build gets interrupted, it just gets rescheduled.16:21
X-Fadeit just moves to another worker.16:21
djszapiwell, kdelibs did not build16:22
djszapialso, it would make sense to start it from the beginning if the dependency underneath changed.16:22
X-FadeIt does that.16:22
djszapiyes, that is why this interruption needs to be prevented.16:22
X-FadeIt looks at the complete dependency tree and determines which packages can be built in parallel.16:22
djszapior there might be just some bug for the kdelibs case, why it did not build after all16:22
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djszapiX-Fade: anyway, do you see anything from the history which caused the whole rebuild session for almost everything ?16:24
X-Fadedjszapi: Did you change the project conf perhaps?16:26
djszapiI got soprano work last night16:26
djszapiand it built, kdelibs started to rebuild automatically since that depends on soprano16:26
djszapiand I just waited. Nothing on my side since last night (soprano push)16:27
djszapiwe have the KDE Harmattan sprint tomorrow, but no built kdelibs yet :p16:27
djszapibefore falling asleep, kdelibs wa saround 85%16:27
djszapiwhen I woke up, this whole blocking stage was happening, without proper kdelibs build.16:27
djszapiX-Fade: do the various projects share the same amount of workers, or does every single project have a dedicated number of workers ?16:31
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djszapiam just wondering whether or not it would be better to push the kdelibs dependency hierarchy into my smaller personal project to get it built earlier.16:32
X-Fadedjszapi: They all share the worker pool.16:32
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djszapiX-Fade: so the worked you get for your project is not guaranteed so it can happen I have just really few workers in my personal project, if other projects build heavily ?16:33
X-Fadedjszapi: everyone will get some work done when that happens.16:34
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X-Fadedjszapi: For instance when you have 250 package building and I submit 1, then I will get my package built when one of the 250 has finished.16:35
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djszapithat sounds reasonable.16:37
X-FadeIt tries to be fair.16:37
X-FadeBut sometimes people can block it ofcourse. If you are building 60x kdelibs, then I have to wait a while.16:37
djszapiare there tricks to speed up the builds ?16:37
djszapiyeah, well what can I do ? :)16:38
djszapikde frameworks will be modularized.16:38
djszapibut that is for future reference.16:38
X-FadeThere isn't much you can do with large packages like that. We're experimenting with massively parallel builds on worker04.16:39
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djszapianyway, I will become a monster if someone is pushing anything core.16:39
X-FadeEspecially for Qt, webkit etc.16:39
X-FadeBut that is still an experiment.16:40
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djszapithe problem will that, many packages are already building in parallel on their owns.16:41
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razvanpetrudid anyone else find that textarea is completely broken?16:56
razvanpetruif you enter lots of \n, it either hides the text, or overflows...16:56
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hiemanshurazvanpetru: in 1.1? yes17:00
razvanpetru1.0 also :-/17:00
razvanpetruhow disappointing17:00
hiemanshuits worse in 1.117:00
razvanpetruany workarounds?17:01
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faenilgood afternoon people17:24
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djszapiM4rtinK: could you please not push gtk-fremantle for a while ?17:26
djszapiM4rtinK: seems everything is getting rebuilt and I would like to avoid any pushings in the next one day17:26
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M4rtinKdjszapi: I'm not doing anything with it currently17:32
M4rtinKyou are doing a complete rebuild of rzrs repo ?17:33
djszapiM4rtinK: I'd rather not, but something triggered that17:33
M4rtinKmight be X-Fade upgrading OBS17:33
M4rtinKchangings some of the internal stuff triggers complete rebuild of all repositories17:34
X-FadeHey, don't blame me :)17:34
djszapilet us blame X-Fade :P :P17:34
X-FadeI was asleep :)17:34
M4rtinKso maybe rzr himself ? :)17:34
M4rtinKthe ways of the OBS sheduler are undecipherable... :)17:35
trxX-Fade may i PM you?17:39
X-Fadetrx: If it is so secret that it can't be said on this channel :)17:40
trxits not17:40
trxits about OBS account17:40
X-Fadetrx: What is your username?17:41
X-Fadefigures :)17:41
X-Fadetrx: Should work now.17:41
trxX-Fade thanks17:41
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* KaIRC loves having this shiny new N9 now - and waits for the MeeGo update to complete... will need to find out how to get all his data from fremantle to harmattan, then18:45
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* DocScrutinizer51 suggets mass storage mode for general media and stuff, plus import/sync (after backup on source!) for contacts. For calendar I guess you're on your own18:51
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djszapiM4rtinK: I am sorry, but I disable your gtk-fremantle for now18:51
djszapiI will enable it again when kdelibs is done18:52
djszapiwe need kdelibs done by tomorrow18:52
djszapialso, why gtk2, and not gtk3 and vala ?18:52
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M4rtinKdependencies, dependencies, dependencies :D18:53
M4rtinKcheck out all the disabled packages in home:MartinK:harmattan18:53
M4rtinKI have first tried to build a more recent GTK2 version18:53
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djszapican you just eliminate the opt deps for now ?18:54
M4rtinKwhich unfortunately want thinks like more recent Cairo, Pango, Pixbuff, build tools, Gobject Introspection18:54
djszapiand escalate those later when a base is working ?18:54
Stskeepswelcome to distribution hell18:55
M4rtinKthey are not optional unfortunately18:55
M4rtinKit also means editing a huge number of packages to downgrade build tools dependency numbers18:55
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djszapiM4rtinK: that is bad if gtk2 -> gtk3 introduced many new dependencies18:56
M4rtinKalso, the GI stuff is needed for the Python bindings to work18:56
M4rtinKand it FRAGILE :D18:56
djszapifragile in what sense ?18:57
M4rtinKthe main GI package won't even compile18:57
djszapisounds stable :)18:57
M4rtinKwell, I might had it compile once, probably breaking it in the process18:58
M4rtinKbecause building the GI enabled versions of other packages would not work18:58
djszapiM4rtinK: is gtk3 ABI compatible to gtk2 ?18:59
M4rtinKbtw, its using Python during the build process :)18:59
M4rtinKno idea18:59
M4rtinKma navigation App uses a very limited subset of GTK18:59
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M4rtinKbasically just Cairo for drawing the GUI, idle loop and text input19:00
M4rtinKso even an ancient GTK version is enough19:00
djszapiyou will have a sort of hard time to publish your gtk app to ovi19:03
M4rtinKwell, should be enough for the time being :)19:03
djszapiunknown origin...19:03
M4rtinKa proper QML+QtGraphicsView/QtOpenGL/Clutter is needed anyway19:04
djszapiyou will lose all the posix capabilities, some tracker tokens, sso, root uid/gid/grp and so on19:05
djszapiI would not use QtOpenGL ...19:05
djszapiQtOpenGL is gone in Qt5...19:05
M4rtinKfor kinetic scrolling, transitions, fluent map zooming, rotation, fake 3D, eye candy, etc.19:05
M4rtinKso what would you use ?19:06
M4rtinKI basically need more highlevel equivalent to SDL with Python bindings :)19:06
djszapiSDL bloeee :)19:06
djszapiM4rtinK: at any rate, I will enable gtk-fremantle when the kde stuff are done for the sprint, if you do not mind.19:07
M4rtinKwell, this is what dwaradzyn does with it on N950:
sivangnre all19:08
M4rtinKdjszapi: no problem - won't have time to work on it in the meantime anyway19:08
djszapisivang o/19:09
sivanghey djszapi :)19:09
Sputwell well. time to prepare my trip to berlin19:09
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Sputhey sivang, djszapi, rest19:09
djszapiSput: have a pleasant journey :)19:09
sivangoh people, you are so lucky to go to that sprint!19:09
Sputdjszapi: I will, I hope :)19:09
sivanghey Sput19:09
KaIRCDocScrutinizer: I care mostly about contacts, ideally sms messages or such - general data is no problem in mass storage mode, of course19:09
Sputsivang: you're the same sivan I've hat lunch with at DS, right?19:10
djszapiI will take 2 N9 and one N950 with me if anybody needs one :)19:10
sivangSput: yes :) there is only one around KDE/Harmattan/Qt communities :)19:10
Sputthought so19:10
Sputso how's your Qt going?19:11
sivangdjszapi: I want an N9 :-p19:11
djszapisivang: desktop is dead, remember ? ;)19:11
sivangSput: very good actually, I managed to make the googlemaps exampe to use proper GPS to pin point location. There is no buildable location based example currently available in Nokia QT sdk19:11
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Sputsivang: in C++?19:11
sivangSput: no, pure QML19:12
sivangSput: C++ locaiton stuff does not build or work19:12
Sputthere's a googlemaps app for Harmattan?19:12
sivangSput: example19:12
Sputwell, mostly I want a Google Latitude updater that works19:12
sivangSput: it works nice, I will fix it and polish and send a Gerrit patch to Qt Project.org19:12
sivangSput: hopefully it'll get merged19:12
sivangSput: we could make one now19:12
Sputyes please, I'd test it :)19:12
sivangSput: location stuff is amazingly easy from QML19:12
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sivangSput: I'll try to update the example and see if I can come up with one, could be good for resume as well19:13
sivangSput: with a google latitude client, that is19:13
Sputthere's one updater somewhere on the net, but that doesn't seem to do anything19:13
sivangSput: my code is very primary I'd need a week more to fix it.19:13
Sputhehe, no hurries19:13
Sputbut please keep me in the loop once you happen to have something testable19:14
sivangSput: will do, could you please remind me again in a week through email?19:15
Sputif you remind me19:15
sivangSput: okay, I will, I'll tell djszapi to remind me as well :)\19:15
sivangI love seeing him in good mood when planning sprints :-p19:15
sivangdjszapi: ^19:15
sivangSput: if you know how to work out location is c++ I'd be glad to know19:16
sivangSput: none of the web published examples work for me19:16
sivangSput: btw, have you joined the Ulm people eventually?19:16
* djszapi hopes to not oversleep again even near a minutely ringing kalarm :)19:16
sivangdjszapi: YOu better not!19:17
Sputsivang: yep, started in Ulm in September19:17
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sivangSput: ah nice, working on?19:17
Sputnothing I could talk about.19:17
sivangSput: lol, working with Mark ?19:17
sivangSput: send him by big regards and I hope he feels better19:17
sivanganyway, I should go back to my work.19:18
sivangSput: stay in touch!19:18
Sputyeah. I need to catch a train in 20 mins19:18
Sputwell, I'm around IRC places19:18
sivangSput: I'll spot you and ping you19:18
* Sput is going to try to beat his MouseArea handling into submission on the train19:20
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rZrdid the trolls starve to death ?20:02
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djszapiX-Fade: seriously...249 blocked package again, and starting from the beginning...20:21
djszapicould you please take a look at this ... ? Someone is really spamming the community repository or the c-obs is broken.20:22
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Sputaaah the joys of OBS20:31
djszapiwell, it is a dirty joke ;-)20:33
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M4rtinKdjszapi: is the file build progressing or is it stuck ?20:50
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djszapiM4rtinK: sorry ?20:51
M4rtinKstill, what is causing the complete repo rebuild ?20:51
M4rtinKwell, seems like the packages wait for fil to compile20:51
djszapiit is not about file20:51
M4rtinKas nothing else is building at the moment20:52
djszapiit even happened prior to file20:52
djszapiwould really like to know what the heck triggers the whole community repository rebuild, or at least the vast majority20:52
Stskeepsdjszapi: osc -A jobhistory home:rzr:harmattan MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard  armv7el20:53
M4rtinKdjszapi: it is about file - a few core packages want libmagic1, which I would guess is provided by the file package20:53
djszapiStskeeps: tried this afternoon, but I could not figure out what has been causing it20:54
djszapiM4rtinK: not really.20:54
Stskeepsdjszapi: osc -A triggerreason home:rzr:harmattan smplayer MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard  armv7el20:54
Stskeepsthat helps to diagnose it20:54
djszapiyou did not take a look at the repo few minutes ago, but it was even building a prior layer to file20:54
Stskeepsmeta change20:55
Stskeepschanged keys: added libmagic1/libxml2/libncurses5-dev md5sum libxml2/libncurses5-dev20:55
Stskeepsgives a hint on what was modded20:55
M4rtinKStskeeps: nice !20:55
djszapimeh, and now 23 blocked packages20:56
djszapifew minute ago 250...20:56
djszapiwho understands it ...20:56
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djszapilibxml2 was changed 2 months ago20:56
M4rtinKhmm, looks like file build failed so other packages don't want it any more :)20:57
djszapifile was changed (libmagic1) 3 months ago20:57
djszapincurses was changed (libncurses5-dev) 3 months ago20:58
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djszapi -> actually I do not understand these aggregate packages20:59
djszapithis is the habit of rzr and I do think we should get rid of those20:59
djszapithis is not a good practice20:59
djszapincurses is available, so I am now deleting it from the comm repo20:59
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djszapiokay, ncurses is a history21:00
djszapi ...21:00
djszapifile is also a history21:01
djszapi ...21:01
djszapilibxml2 is also a history21:02
djszapiI hope these duplication removals solve something21:02
djszapiwe would need a smart script to detect the duplicated packages easily ..21:02
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djszapi -> same with lsb ..21:05
djszapigoodbye lsb, too :)21:05
faenillo people21:06
djszapi ..21:07
djszapiM4rtinK: could you please help me with this cleanup ?21:07
faenildjszapi, what do you mean by goodbye?21:08
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djszapi -> same ..21:09
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djszapigame over21:09
faenilyeahI mean why? I see packages there21:09
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djszapiwe duplicate pkg-config too:
djszapiM4rtinK: btw, vala: :)21:11
djszapimeh, what is this ?
faenilcan anyone please tell me what's wrong with the packages in there? :)21:12
trxthey are duplicates as i understood21:12
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djszapimeh, cpio too:
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M4rtinKdjszapi: I know Vala - its used a lot by the SHR people, together with EFL21:14
djszapivala is a cool thingie21:14
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faeniltrk: oh duplicates...21:14
M4rtinKbut I like to use a language that doesn't need to be compiled :)21:14
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djszapiM4rtinK: please do feel free to nuke the packages like that from the community repository21:15
djszapiwhich are already provided by N.21:16
M4rtinKwhats that package anyway ? :)21:16
djszapisorry ?21:16
M4rtinKsometimes it feels like rzr is just using some sort of a new-COBS-packages RSS to automatically populate the repository :)21:17
djszapi -> ok, so nano is also history ...21:17
M4rtinKdjszapi: I mean I have no idea what the package called harmattan-repository does21:17
djszapithere is even an "rzr" package.21:18
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M4rtinKits "his" repo :)21:18
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djszapiit is a community repository. I proposed to be at his place.21:19
djszapisince we did not get a dedicated account for this21:19
djszapiand I did not want it at my place.21:19
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djszapi and
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M4rtinKbtw, what's beta3 ?21:21
M4rtinKits the current repo for the N950 ?21:22
M4rtinKhmm, seems like it as it has nano :)21:22
djszapiwell, you can add any repository which is available to your sources.list21:22
M4rtinKI mean the default repository21:22
djszapitry to read your default sources.list I guess21:23
djszapiI do not know this bit by heart21:23
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djszapibut this cleanup so far eliminated 100 blocked packages from that stage.21:24
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M4rtinKI have found just an URL with a funny hash @ downloads.maemo.com21:25
M4rtinKso I'd guess that hashed path is just redirected to beta3,beta4,beta5, etc. as needed21:26
djszapino real clue, sorry21:26
M4rtinKwell, it's not important21:27
M4rtinK ?? :D21:27
djszapiM4rtinK: we need to clean up all the core packages21:27
djszapiwhich are duplicated21:27
djszapibecause everything will be blocked since it tries to rebuild core packages even if they are available by default in binary format ...21:28
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djszapisorry, but what is "??" ?21:28
M4rtinKjust stronger ?21:28
djszapisorry ?21:28
gabriel9i think there must be 1h of sleaping on the job21:29
djszapi -> meh, openssl21:29
gabriel9for coders21:29
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djszapithat is extremely huge duplication because it build for one hour or so21:29
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djszapi -> cairo is also duplicated ...21:31
djszapimeh, even strace :D21:32
djszapiactually, many of these are not just duplicated, but rather outdated to the Nokia shipped ones.21:33
djszapilibexif too...21:34
M4rtinKdjszapi: might fix those GTK issues in the end :)21:34
djszapiI think rZr was drunk while importing the Nokia repository :)21:34
djszapiM4rtinK: hope so21:35
djszapiM4rtinK: the cleanup caused -150 blocked heretofore21:35
djszapimeh, alsa lib !21:35
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djszapiM4rtinK: this seems to be a real package :) Do not ask me what it provides :p21:37
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djszapilibselinux in the commrepo :D Tryings for putting selinux instead of aegis ? :D21:37
M4rtinKdjszapi: Aegis is not enough, we need more ! apparmor is next ! :D21:39
djszapiM4rtinK: have you ever experienced rpc timeout while it was building fine locally by using "osc build" ? I have many situations like that for now21:40
djszapiheh :)21:40
M4rtinKwell, I think you can't get RPC timeout with local build21:40
M4rtinKat least once it has downloaded everything21:40
djszapiyes, but how am I supposed to debug that then ?21:41
M4rtinKIMHO RPC - Remote Procedure Call, so it means a part of the remote infrastructure did not answer a request in time21:41
M4rtinKtrigger rebuild until it works21:42
M4rtinKor bug X-Fade :)21:42
nix-cyruswhat kind of rpc?21:43
M4rtinKfrequent RPC timeouts might be a sign of infrastructure failure/overload21:43
djszapinix-cyrus: we do not know21:43
djszapiM4rtinK: -200 blocked :)21:44
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djszapiM4rtinK: ctrl+f: rpc gives zero result in that apidocs21:48
M4rtinKOBS uses standard http calls like GET, PUT, POST21:48
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M4rtinKthat was just an answer to what kind of RPC it uses21:49
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nix-cyrusget and put not rpc I think22:06
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DocScrutinizerbtw I can't no longer host the daily mirror of , it's getting too large22:26
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trxwhat's with the OBS? i get "rpc timeout", what does that mean?22:56
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henkieHi, are there any good example applications for N9/N950 written with QML ?23:27
dm8tbrshould be plenty23:31
dm8tbre.g. on apps that are built for harmattan23:31
henkietnx, I'll take a look23:32
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dm8tbrthe docs should also tell you well enough how to get up and running23:36
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