IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2011-11-08

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artemma	just got news that N9 is on sale in USA	02:33
artemma	without any carrier support though	02:33
ieatlint	oh?	02:35
artemma	RT @tomiahonen: suddenly the #N9 is actually for sale in the USA - but no carrier contracts, no subsidies, costs $690..	02:35
ieatlint	distributed to the US, or a US retailer imported a case themselves?	02:35
ieatlint	i had a good experience here in the states getting a microsd card	02:42
ieatlint	they assumed i had an iphone	02:43
ieatlint	were then very interested when they saw the n9	02:43
DocScrutinizer	means they charged you premium :-P	02:43
ieatlint	waived the fee :P	02:44
ieatlint	normally $20 though	02:44
DocScrutinizer	anyway seems the concept of SIM isn't really common knowledge in USA. I couldn't say how else you see people using disposable mobile phones in CSI and other TV crap	02:46
ieatlint	varies... since LTE uses a SIM, pretty much everyone deals with them now	02:47
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DocScrutinizer	anyway now I feel like "toldya" once more, why should Nokia forbid selling of N9 in USA? gosh was that a whining when the USA Nokia webshop didn't announce any sales start date, and I always claimed there's bo use in building a phone with octaband or what it was, other than using it in USA with their lunatic carriers and bands	02:51
DocScrutinizer	s/ bo/ no	02:51
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DocScrutinizer	another anyway: "no carrier support" sounds to me like US wholesale mentality. "No subsidized devices" is more like it	02:55
ieatlint	it's not a lunatic carrier issue	02:56
ieatlint	our carriers are just as retarded as yours	02:56
ieatlint	the bands were just used already	02:56
DocScrutinizer	hell that was a bummer when not even this omniband device supported USA carriers' bands	02:56
ieatlint	i laugh that the lumia phones don't support all the US bands	02:56
ieatlint	"oh no, i can't use the latest nokia winphone :("	02:57
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: not really, running UMTS on a band clearly defined as GSM-only... erhmÜ	02:57
ieatlint	well, that's ATT	02:57
ieatlint	they're just like that	02:57
ieatlint	my carrier does 1700/2100	02:58
DocScrutinizer	which is all sane for 3G	02:58
DocScrutinizer	but don't tell me 850 was "occupied" so they "had to use UMTS on that freq"	02:58
ieatlint	850 was used for GSM at one point	03:00
ieatlint	but they stopped it to reuse it, since it was the only bands they had	03:00
DocScrutinizer	I might accept there were real reasons for 850/1900 in USA (though I don't buy the military story). But with abusing bands for 3G that were 2G worldwide, no no no	03:00
ieatlint	1900 is still gsm i think	03:01
DocScrutinizer	which is especially insane as 3G cell size is smaller per definitionem, so they better had abused the 1900 band rather than 850	03:02
ieatlint	sounds like you should visit ATT and teach those guys a lesson about european standardization	03:04
ieatlint	tell them about metric too	03:04
DocScrutinizer	LOL about devel.nokia.com - sends cookies with expiration date 1969-12-31 23:00	03:05
DocScrutinizer	~lart ATT, with a 0.01AWG branded wire	03:06
* infobot pours gasoline all over ATT, with a 0.01AWG branded wire, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze		03:06
DocScrutinizer	well, there's a link that leaves nothing to add for a comment	03:15
DocScrutinizer	http://maps.mobileworldlive.com/network.php?cid=280&cname=United States	03:16
DocScrutinizer	compare e.g. http://maps.mobileworldlive.com/network.php?cid=133&cname=Germany ;-P	03:19
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DocScrutinizer	the difference? other than the FCC the germen authorities sold bands nationwide, not per region/district/village	03:21
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DocScrutinizer	N9: Frequency Bands GSM 1800 GSM 1900 GSM 850 GSM 900 WCDMA Band I (2100) WCDMA Band II (1900) WCDMA Band IV (1700/2100) WCDMA Band V (850) WCDMA Band VIII (900)	03:25
Mek	hmm, I guess nobody here knows how to flash an image to an n950 that is older than what is currently on it? (i.e. get around the downgrade disallowed security check?)	03:25
DocScrutinizer	it's mere impossible	03:26
DocScrutinizer	for mere mortals	03:27
Mek	damn...	03:27
SpeedEvil	Many know how.	03:28
SpeedEvil	We just lack the certs to do so.	03:29
DocScrutinizer51	my laptop acts up on ethernet	03:30
DocScrutinizer51	~ping	03:31
infobot	~pong	03:31
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DocScrutinizer51	rather, the bastards are doing an unscheduled downtime on my DSLAM	03:33
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DocScrutinizer51	~ping	03:43
infobot	~pong	03:43
* GeneralAntilles yawns.		03:43
DocScrutinizer51	moo gan	03:43
GeneralAntilles	Hey-oh	03:43
DocScrutinizer51	humm	03:44
DocScrutinizer51	yay	03:44
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GeneralAntilles	lol	03:45
GeneralAntilles	The 24 hours of Call of Duty charity event got taken down with a DMCA violation.	03:46
DocScrutinizer	LOL	03:46
GeneralAntilles	Activision is such a scumbag company.	03:46
DocScrutinizer	That'S what we call "making friends"	03:46
DocScrutinizer	or even pretty good PR	03:47
DocScrutinizer	forget friggin charity, you should save all your money to pay for our decoders	03:48
DocScrutinizer	games actually	03:49
* DocScrutinizer wonders when EA sports will take down the champions league		03:54
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DocScrutinizer	similarly reasonable claim - "we have a game of that name"	03:55
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DocScrutinizer	https://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N9/ Regional Availability Global	04:05
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, if they say so.	04:05
DocScrutinizer	hooray, Nokia website reproducably kills my konqueror	04:15
* GeneralAntilles chuckles at thriving entrepreneurship at OWS.		04:24
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ieatlint	i'll take OWS seriously when they display basic intelligence, and two different people from the movement can give me similar answers as to what they're protesting	04:30
GeneralAntilles	I think it's just cathartic for most involved.	04:33
GeneralAntilles	Aside from the union assholes.	04:33
ieatlint	true enough	04:33
GeneralAntilles	I find it funny that they're protesting against crony capitalism and bank bailouts, but seem to be for student loan bailouts.	04:33
SpeedEvil	in some ways I'd be in favour, for people with real degrees.	04:34
GeneralAntilles	People with real degrees usually don't need it	04:34
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	04:34
GeneralAntilles	because they didn't spend $200k on a degree in Peace Studies.	04:34
SpeedEvil	Social work - for someone actually doing low-paid social work say.	04:35
GeneralAntilles	See, here's the problem though	04:35
GeneralAntilles	Incentive matters	04:35
SpeedEvil	And yes, I know.	04:35
SpeedEvil	Which is why I said 'in some ways'.	04:35
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	04:35
SpeedEvil	moral hazard and all that shizzle.	04:35
GeneralAntilles	The unlimited funds available have been a large part of what's driven up the prices of degrees.	04:36
SpeedEvil	Similarly with health.	04:36
ieatlint	they need to realize they were supposed to pick a viable career path	04:36
Tronic	I've only been following by Google+ posts but it seems pretty clear that they are protesting against corporations (owned by the 1 %) having too much lobbying power, i.e. there being no true democracy. Everything else follows as a consequence of that.	04:36
GeneralAntilles	Well, they can get a degree in whatever they want	04:36
ieatlint	because i don't see many protesters down there with MBAs and computer science degrees	04:36
GeneralAntilles	but making unlimited funds available for useless career paths isn't productive	04:36
SpeedEvil	Government is _way_ too willing to listen to lobbying.	04:37
SpeedEvil	Rather than getting sane opinion on subjects.	04:37
ieatlint	Tronic: they all seem to give that message, but they then list off several more at random	04:37
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, personally, I'd argue government has way too much power. ;)	04:37
GeneralAntilles	and thus lobbying is way too effective.	04:37
ieatlint	Tronic: and they are just angry about it, they don't propose any sort of solution	04:37
GeneralAntilles	Incentive still matters.	04:37
Tronic	What I do wonder is where does this "no clear message" nonsense comes from.	04:37
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, sure there's true democracy.	04:37
GeneralAntilles	They voted for Obama.	04:37
Tronic	Go to any demonstration and you will find signs that seem off the point. OWS seems far more consistent in message than your average demonstrations do.	04:38
ieatlint	Tronic: where are you?	04:38
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, until you start talking to demonstrators. :P	04:38
Tronic	ieatlint: Finland.	04:38
SpeedEvil	UK government is currently pissing me off by lots of stories about 'benefit cheats' - and releasing stats about 'fraud (and in a subscript) and error'	04:38
ieatlint	how many OWS protesters you have there?	04:38
ieatlint	because i'm traveling between san francisco and oakland, and i see homeless encampments	04:39
Tronic	ieatlint: A handful but I have no idea what they do. As I said, I've been following this via Google+.	04:39
SpeedEvil	The clear implication is that fraud is rife - this has been picked up by lots of tabloid newspapers and TV.	04:39
SpeedEvil	But official stats make it clear that error is the huger slice.	04:39
SpeedEvil	And payments due to errors by claimants are only 50% more that than errors due to highly trained staff.	04:40
* SpeedEvil sighs.		04:40
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, fraud is a pretty sizable problem with the welfare system here.	04:40
GeneralAntilles	But the bigger problem is incentive.	04:40
SpeedEvil	Same here.	04:40
GeneralAntilles	The system incentivizes all of the wrong things.	04:40
SpeedEvil	I'm currently on disability benefits.	04:40
SpeedEvil	I'm trying to get approval to so small amounts of work at irregular intervals as my health permits.	04:41
SpeedEvil	- maybe 3-4 hours a week of design work self employed.	04:41
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, how bad is working from home for you?	04:41
SpeedEvil	There is _no_ help for how to go the self employment route.	04:41
GeneralAntilles	(if it's not too prying)	04:41
SpeedEvil	And it's all geared to minimum wage.	04:42
SpeedEvil	Basically:	04:42
GeneralAntilles	Well, that's government bureaucracy.	04:42
Tronic	ieatlint: Finland already has very strong social security and also the division of wealth is not that much screwed here, so I guess that is a reason why the movement is rather minor here.	04:42
SpeedEvil	I get extremely tired when concentrating for extended periods, or doing any task that involves doing something for more than 20 minutes or so, and have to rest. And much of the time am feeling like head is packed with cotton wool.	04:43
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, wealth isn't a zero-sum game.	04:43
SpeedEvil	Hence progress is difficult.	04:43
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Quite true.	04:43
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, sounds awful.	04:43
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GeneralAntilles	Tronic, if the government would quit stealing Peter to pay Paul the GM Executive. . . .	04:43
ieatlint	Tronic: if they had a concise message, i'd be more supportive	04:43
ieatlint	but they've pigeonholed themselves into radical status	04:43
strannik1	Hello	04:43
ieatlint	and i also dislike movements that decide they represent me	04:44
SpeedEvil	Not fun. Having to concentrate on benefits, and spending much of my potentially productive time reading caselaw, and 'decision makers guides' - is not helping either.	04:44
GeneralAntilles	ieatlint, yeah, I hate that.	04:44
SpeedEvil	Greenpeace are especially good at that.	04:44
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: I could otherwise understand left wing politics but what I cannot agree is trying to punish the rich "because it serves them right" rather than try and improve the society as a whole.	04:44
ieatlint	the last time i recall someone telling me they were doing a big political thing for me, we invaded iraq	04:44
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, that's a large part of the reason I'm in favor of private charities over government.	04:44
ieatlint	so yeah..	04:44
* SpeedEvil is depressed again at the whole glowing Japan thing.		04:44
ieatlint	i'm off for food	04:45
SpeedEvil	just as nukes looked plausible to start building again, it's discounted on the basis of 50yo designs.	04:45
SpeedEvil	And private charities don't always work so well.	04:45
SpeedEvil	It works great for kiddies with lukemia.	04:45
SpeedEvil	They are sexy.	04:45
strannik1	This sounds interesting .. Whats the debate?	04:46
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, it's a sad setback for what's mostly a clean and safely (and incredibly effective) energy system.	04:46
SpeedEvil	It doesn't work nearly so well for some other groups.	04:46
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, whatever my drunk ass feels like tossing in here.	04:46
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, no, I don't disagree.	04:46
strannik1	:) haha awesome	04:46
GeneralAntilles	But at least the incentive tends towards a positive direction rather than a bureaucratic one.	04:46
SpeedEvil	Guide-dogs-for-the-blind, for example, in the UK recently spent $30M on a custom dogbreeding facility involving hydrotherapy pools for the doggies.	04:47
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: I do think that strong social security (I'd prefer basic income) and free education are good things for the society as a whole but harder taxes on the rich won't really have much effect on the public economy, therefore it is merely punishing the rich, not helping the society.	04:47
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, started with complaining about OWS hypocrisy and inconsistency, throw in a little bit about bureaucratic welfare inefficiency and waste, and top if off with some nuclear energy depression.	04:47
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, so, my issue there is that incentive still matters.	04:47
M4rtinK	well, there is a 2 block (about 2000 GW-E) upgrade planed in Czech Republic :)	04:48
GeneralAntilles	and government doesn't do anything efficiently.	04:48
M4rtinK	seen that powerplant this summer, its pretty monumental even now :)	04:48
strannik1	I say screw socialism. Capitalism is the way to go	04:48
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, does free education include degrees in useless shit?	04:48
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, does it have any controls on price inflation in education?	04:48
strannik1	Education should be available to everyone though	04:49
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, I suspect a large core of the origin of OWS in the US is the insane education bubble over the last 20 years.	04:49
SpeedEvil	The UK recently raised the compulsory education age from 16-18	04:49
GeneralAntilles	largely brought on by unlimited monies available for student loans.	04:49
SpeedEvil	And has recently had an aim of putting 50% of people into university.	04:49
strannik1	But the uk increased uni fees 3x	04:49
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, I agree, but what form does that education take?	04:49
SpeedEvil	Which...	04:49
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: There should be reasonable limits on the number of students accepted to each degree, eliminating most of those "useless degrees".	04:49
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: The point about education being free is that the students get chosen by entrance exams or similar means, not by wealth.	04:50
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, some people aren't well served by pursuing a university degree.	04:50
SpeedEvil	strannik1: It's not quite that simple.	04:50
SpeedEvil	GeneralAntilles: Or indeed continuing education from 16-18	04:50
strannik1	The uni fees? Or education for everyone?	04:50
SpeedEvil	strannik1: many people will not pay back their loans, they are written off.	04:50
SpeedEvil	strannik1: And if you don't end up earning 'reasonably' - you don't have to pay anything.	04:51
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, well, are we talking mandatory public education or a reasonable sum of money attached to each student that their parent's can decide where to spend.	04:51
SpeedEvil	Parents can make really, really bad decisions.	04:51
strannik1	Yea true	04:51
* GeneralAntilles is very happy to be off cold medicine and onto alcohol (just for tonight, though)		04:51
Tronic	Being a supporter of (mostly) free market economy, I do think that private schools should be permitted, of course. If someone is willing to pay their own expenses, then why not...	04:51
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, what about vouchers (attaching money to the student to take where they please)?	04:52
strannik1	Yea i was about to say	04:52
SpeedEvil	And how does it work for home-schooling?	04:52
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Depending on the limitations of the voucher, it is pretty much the same thing I'd prefer (i.e. any institution can get the public funding instead of having to be state-driven).	04:53
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, sure, anybody can make really bad decisions.	04:53
GeneralAntilles	But that's part of life	04:53
GeneralAntilles	Trying to have the government protect everybody from any bad decisions they might make ends up hurting more than it helps.	04:53
SpeedEvil	In some areas.	04:54
SpeedEvil	Trying to encourage local industry, and decrease flows of capital out of the country may be positive.	04:54
strannik1	SpeedEvil: this whole student loan thing cant be an answer to students problems.. Apparently next year there will be 20-25% less people going to uni	04:55
GeneralAntilles	The whole "locally made is better" thing is sort of a fallacy.	04:55
SpeedEvil	And individuals don't do that.	04:55
SpeedEvil	And not 'locally made is better'.	04:55
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, trade imbalances?	04:55
SpeedEvil	Yes.	04:55
SpeedEvil	The current model of trade in the 'west' is scary.	04:55
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, that's an interesting problem.	04:55
SpeedEvil	Apple is not a manufacturing company.	04:56
strannik1	Apple is a fruit!	04:56
SpeedEvil	They're a company that sticks labels on boxes made inchina.	04:56
strannik1	:)	04:56
SpeedEvil	All the profit stays in the US. (pretty much).	04:56
SpeedEvil	There is no technical reason why chinese OEMs can't bite real hard into this, and similar markets, making all the stuff in china, but keeping all the profit in china.	04:56
SpeedEvil	At this point, the balance of trade goes _really_ into the crapper.	04:57
strannik1	Are you saying it should be fairer?	04:57
SpeedEvil	No.	04:57
SpeedEvil	I'm saying that we're fucked.	04:57
GeneralAntilles	Trade deficits are sort of misleading, though.	04:58
strannik1	We as the western world?	04:58
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, hypothetically they could	04:58
GeneralAntilles	but is it actually in their best interest?	04:58
GeneralAntilles	I mean, the money obviously comes back for a reason.	04:58
SpeedEvil	When the chinese brands start rising in the west, and US branded sales (or UK or western) drop, the balance of trade gets nasty.	04:58
GeneralAntilles	Rational self-interest and all that is a powerful thing.	04:59
SpeedEvil	And US purchasing power drops a lot.	04:59
SpeedEvil	We're at the moment living off investments made by our grandfathers and great grandfathers.	04:59
Tronic	University students here get up to 470 €/month social security but most people still end up working part-time for extra income, causing the studies to be delayed (instead of the five-year nominal length, Bachelor+Masters takes more than seven years by median and quite often more than 10 years).	04:59
SpeedEvil	In really good infrastructure, food safety, and a large number of other things that made an efficient workforce.	05:00
strannik1	Tronic: which country is this?	05:00
Tronic	strannik1: Finland.	05:00
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, I know plenty of people who completed their studies in 4 years working 20-40 hours a week.	05:00
Tronic	Oddly enough, the unemployed get (depending on various things) around 800 €/month.	05:00
berndhs	trade deficits in the short term mean someone isn't getting paid for their production	05:01
SpeedEvil	But China (and the rest of the world) are catching up.	05:01
SpeedEvil	berndhs: Not quite. They mean they're not getting paid equally on each side of the planet.	05:01
berndhs	they are getting paid by promises to get paid later, which doesn't always happen	05:02
Tronic	How are the social security benefits in USA, BTW?	05:02
SpeedEvil	But local payment rates may be much lower in one place.	05:02
SpeedEvil	making it 'OK' for a while.	05:02
strannik1	It really worries me how socialism is discussed so much in general at the moment... I spoke to a spanish guy (about socialism). I never knew people in europe existed who want what sounds to me	05:02
strannik1	Like communism	05:02
SpeedEvil	This is one reason why I'm so in favour of nuclear. Competing with the rising chinese middle class for energy 20-40 years out is a _scary_ prospect.	05:03
SpeedEvil	Which is why we need to get off fossil fuel fast.	05:03
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, Europe appears to be largely all about that these days. :P	05:03
Tronic	strannik1: The left wing politics are on the rise now, quite possibly due to the depression since 2008.	05:03
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, out of interest, where are you located?	05:03
strannik1	I study in the uk	05:03
strannik1	But i live in germany	05:04
strannik1	But i am actually russian	05:04
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, sounds like a lot of traveling.	05:04
Tronic	strannik1: Also they are now getting a lot of media attention, something that I haven't noticed happening before.	05:04
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: Uranium also is fossil	05:04
strannik1	It feels like having left socialist russia . For socialist europe	05:04
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: Well - yes. But it - and thorium - aren't likely to run out soon.	05:05
SpeedEvil	Then there is fusion.	05:05
DocScrutinizer	while solar clearly isn't, as are wind power mills	05:05
SpeedEvil	Solar is in some ways a distraction without massive amounts of energy storage.	05:05
strannik1	I think it must have been better in europe in the 70s because there was fear of socialism/communism... Now there is no fear . And europe can slip right into it by accident	05:05
berndhs	thorium would buy use a few hundred years to get past these issues	05:05
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: (not likely to run out) are you sure about your data on that ?	05:06
Tronic	Uranium is not a fossil fuel by definition.	05:06
SpeedEvil	What happens in greece will be illuminating.	05:06
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, it's the romance of the 60s hippie movement (at least with OWS).	05:06
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: The exploitable reserves of uranium are quite high. Thorium even higher.	05:06
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, well, the US is still a little better (for now).	05:06
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: I heard different	05:07
SpeedEvil	What is currently available in existing mines is fairly low.	05:07
SpeedEvil	This is because the uranium price crashed.	05:07
strannik1	Yea the us sounds like one of the only countries really fighting for democracy, capitalism etc	05:07
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: according to some scenarios fission fuel may each peak before oil does	05:07
DocScrutinizer	reach*	05:08
berndhs	DocScrutinizer: I remember those scenarios from when I was a child, we're running out in about 1980	05:08
SpeedEvil	That can only be assuming existing mines only.	05:08
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, that tradition seems to be going away thanks to the overwhelming success of public education, but we're still better off the most of the rest of the planet.	05:08
GeneralAntilles	There's a crazy amount of opposition to using any of the huge oil reserves in North America.	05:09
strannik1	Nuclear power isnt bad as long it is properly controlled . If the facilities are regularly maintained its not a problem	05:09
GeneralAntilles	For some reason people would rather give money to Iran and Saudi Arabia.	05:09
SpeedEvil	Paradoxically, if I was Iran, or Saudi, I would actually be investing in nuclear power.	05:10
Tronic	DocScrutinizer: There is plenty of uranium for centuries to come and it is a rather common mineral in Earth crust. Even the existing deposits will take us so far that it simply isn't profitable to look for new ones.	05:10
SpeedEvil	And superconducting power infrastructure, to be able to supply power when the oil runs out.	05:10
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, the Israelis aren't making that easy, though.	05:10
SpeedEvil	Yeah - the politics of the area is fun.	05:10
Tronic	DocScrutinizer: Also, fast breeder reactors can use the current "nuclear waste" as fuel, greatly increasing the amount of available energy.	05:10
strannik1	GeneralAntilles: thanks to public education? Surely public education includes history lessons that teach how socialism brought down the soviet union in the end .. Which is what .. 20 years ago	05:10
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, not really.	05:11
GeneralAntilles	Public education is about teaching learning, not teaching reasoning.	05:11
GeneralAntilles	and most of the public employees hold socialist views.	05:11
Tronic	Thorium is also an option but it hasn't been investigated because there is no shortage of uranium.	05:11
berndhs	i thought thorium was actually better than uranium, less readiactive waste, down side is you can't make bombs from it	05:12
DocScrutinizer	actually there's been a Thorium reactor in Germany, for some weeks or months :-P	05:12
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, the history texts characterize it as Stalinism bringing down the Soviet Union (which is a form of communism, which isn't related to socialism at all, etc.)	05:13
strannik1	GeneralAntilles: my argument is this... True socialism is great .. Lets start sending all our wealth to africe . Because the labour class doesnt realize that they are actually the rich being in the top20% of the wealthiest people on earth	05:14
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, the history texts don't actually tell you that 3000+ civilians were murdered in the Tiananmen Square protests.	05:14
DocScrutinizer	anyway, I hate all fission processes for the decay products	05:14
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strannik1	GeneralAntilles: well i find it funny how people in europe dont know that the soviet union never had communism.. Instead it was socialism	05:15
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, yeah, the US Census Bureau is trying redefine the poverty line to be about at about 2,200 USD higher than it was.	05:15
GeneralAntilles	~$22k to ~$24k for a family of four.	05:15
Tronic	berndhs: It is hard to tell, as pretty much the only material you can get on it these days is by pro-Thorium lobbyists.	05:15
GeneralAntilles	Of course that family of four usually has an HDTV and cable.	05:16
strannik1	Haha :)	05:16
strannik1	80% of the world makes about 10 dollars a day i think	05:16
Tronic	berndhs: That sort of material is probably correct about the benefits but it is also likely to ignore any disadvantages there might be.	05:16
strannik1	50% make about 5 dollars a day	05:16
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, most of my primarily-self-supporting college-student friends would qualify for Federal food stamps.	05:17
strannik1	Hahaha XD	05:17
strannik1	Well i would too	05:17
SpeedEvil	Income can be misleading in the face of high living costs.	05:17
GeneralAntilles	Largely that's because of the insane expansion of the program under the Obama administration.	05:17
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, true, but you don't live in the SF Bay Area making $24k.	05:18
GeneralAntilles	There are lots and lots of cheap places to live in the US.	05:18
GeneralAntilles	We have plenty of empty square-footage.	05:18
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	05:18
SpeedEvil	Problem then becomes where are the jobs for those that'd have to move?	05:18
GeneralAntilles	But, my issue isn't so much with what people want to define poverty as as how they seem to want to "address" it.	05:19
SpeedEvil	The most broken aspect of the UK for lower earners is houses.	05:19
SpeedEvil	We haven't been building significant numbers.	05:19
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, well, that's why I'd argue you don't want crushing, burdensome government parasitism and regulation impeding commerce.	05:19
strannik1	SpeedEvil: in socialist soviet union the jobs, demand and supply was created by the government .. When it collapsed people were confused on how to get a job	05:20
Tronic	It'll be interesting to see if the housing crisis hits Finland at some point. I paid 235 k€ for an apartment in 2010 and the prices still keep rising despite the depression.	05:20
SpeedEvil	And people have been splitting up and living in lower family sizes.	05:20
SpeedEvil	meaning that the average 'first time buyer' without parental support is approaching 40.	05:20
strannik1	SpeedEvil: if someone moves to a new area .. Surely jobs can be created	05:20
Tronic	I hear that apartments here are more expensive than in Manhattan.	05:20
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, the core of the real estate burst here was the insane amounts of near-unlimited no-questions-asked credit put out at the behest of Congress.	05:20
strannik1	SpeedEvil: i mean by the very same people who move	05:21
GeneralAntilles	Demand creates commerce.	05:21
GeneralAntilles	As long as the government can stay out of the way.	05:21
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strannik1	Yea screw goverment intervention	05:22
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Btw, did you watch the movie about that? Too Big to Fail (2011)	05:23
Tronic	One of the better movies this year.	05:23
strannik1	I think the whole perception of government systems is screwed anyway	05:23
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, haven't seen it.	05:24
GeneralAntilles	I despise most of the big-name characters listed.	05:24
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, "too big to fail" is a result of government meddling	05:24
strannik1	Whats government meddling?	05:25
GeneralAntilles	That banks, insurance companies, airlines and car manufacturers are supposedly "too big to fail".	05:25
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strannik1	Dunno , i think thats bullshit	05:26
GeneralAntilles	It's part politics and part the creation of monopolistic type companies via government barriers to commerce.	05:26
strannik1	The bigger you are the harder the fall	05:26
GeneralAntilles	s/politics/bullshit	05:26
strannik1	The bigger the investment the greater the loss if it fails	05:26
SpeedEvil	Sometimes monopolies emerge.	05:27
SpeedEvil	not due to governmental action.	05:27
SpeedEvil	For example, ebay.	05:27
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, it's true.	05:27
GeneralAntilles	But eBay's success is essentially dependent on its ability to serve its customers.	05:27
berndhs	ebay, railroads, oil companies, regional transportation,...	05:27
SpeedEvil	Though a faiiilure of ebay would probably not be a cataclysmic event.	05:27
GeneralAntilles	If eBay stopped doing that somebody else would step up to do business.	05:28
GeneralAntilles	But eBay doesn't /really/ have a monopoly	05:28
SpeedEvil	it has a functional monopoly due to network effects.	05:28
GeneralAntilles	Craigslist being a big competitor	05:28
SpeedEvil	in some places.	05:28
DocScrutinizer	never heard of it	05:28
SpeedEvil	Not, for example, in the uk.	05:28
berndhs	the railroads were effectively monopolies for large regions	05:28
strannik1	We can say its monopolistic	05:28
GeneralAntilles	berndhs, infrastructure is slightly more complicated.	05:28
GeneralAntilles	berndhs, that was largely government interference.	05:28
berndhs	it is more complicated, but the problems of monopolies versus free markets remains in those cases	05:29
strannik1	Berndhs: meh ,, the uks railroads suck .. Always late and they brake down if there is half an inch of snow	05:29
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: I would think that it actually stems from a bigger fundamental problem with the monetary system. We wish for more money to be created all the time, to allow people to keep paying their debts. As a result, the interest rates have been 0.5-1.5 % for a very long time even though inflation is getting far ahead of that. The low rates both help people manage their monthly payments and encourage others to take more ...	05:29
Tronic	... loans, keeping the system running.	05:29
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, debt is a big problem.	05:30
GeneralAntilles	But the government appears to be leading by example here. ;)	05:30
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strannik1	Maybe we europeans already live in communism without know it.. Last time i checked you pay about 5% less taxes in china than most european country	05:31
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: What the US goverment and the bankers have done with investment instruments (i.e. making the vast majority of the economy consist of those rather than real goods) follows from the need to keep increasing the monetary economy, even if we cannot actually produce more/better material goods.	05:31
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, there's nothing wrong with a strong financial market.	05:31
GeneralAntilles	Where do you think capital comes from?	05:31
berndhs	the volume of financial markets is about 10 times that of production, world wide	05:32
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GeneralAntilles	But the government's meddling in the financial system needs to stop.	05:32
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Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Capital comes from loans, which are oversupported by various systems (yes, including the governments).	05:32
berndhs	so the capital in financial markets comes from betting on production and consumption	05:32
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strannik1	Btw you guys know that china is socialist and not communist? And that the soviet unions was also socialist and never communist	05:34
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Unfortunately I don't think that'll help but I would certainly be willing to accept it if it also meant no more bailouts. I.e. if the private sector takes the profits, they also need to handle the risks.	05:34
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, oh the fun meddling redefinition of terms you'll find there in the US education system.	05:35
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, bailouts are meddling.	05:35
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Yes, just needed to clarify because many think that "no meddling" only means more freedom.	05:35
GeneralAntilles	Tronic, Orwellian redefinition of the language is becoming more and more frustrating. :(	05:36
Tronic	Quite true.	05:36
berndhs	I like states like Qatar, privately owned :)	05:36
strannik1	Ok here is a mindfuck question . How do you know that we dont live in a dictatorship or socialism/Communism here in the western world?	05:37
DocScrutinizer	I'm not interested in the term we're using to describe what's happening in e.g. Russia	05:37
DocScrutinizer	USSR	05:37
DocScrutinizer	china	05:37
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, we don't. We can only hope. :P	05:37
strannik1	Hahaha lol	05:37
GeneralAntilles	strannik1, but look at the ever-increasing power of bodies like the EU and the UN.	05:37
strannik1	Even in the ussr you had parliament elections	05:37
GeneralAntilles	Unelected, unaccountable.	05:38
strannik1	European Union ,, Soviet Union .. Get the hint haha .. Now imagine the blue flag is red ;)	05:38
DocScrutinizer	so what?	05:38
strannik1	Add some socialism into the mix	05:39
GeneralAntilles	I don't get the whole "the 1% controls everything!" Well, what's your answer? "Give more power to the 1%!"	05:39
strannik1	Maybe putting weaker eu states into debt and robbing them	05:39
GeneralAntilles	Greece is going to be fun.	05:39
strannik1	They should leave the eu fast	05:40
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Not to mention Italy and others still being ignored.	05:40
GeneralAntilles	EU should dissolve.	05:40
DocScrutinizer	ignored by whom?	05:40
Tronic	GeneralAntilles: Need to handle one of them at a time because nobody wants to see the big picture.	05:40
GeneralAntilles	It's not good for anybody but the EU elites.	05:40
strannik1	Infact i think spain is off just as bad as greece financially	05:40
strannik1	GeneralAntilles: yea true .. Not even for the elites because weaked members pull down the elites	05:41
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Tronic	DocScrutinizer: There are plenty of EMU members whose economy is screwed already. We are expected to bailout one at a time. In the Spring it was Portugal, now it is Greece (again), others will follow as soon as we have Greece sorted out.	05:42
Tronic	Iceland is not doing too badly, now is it?	05:42
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strannik1	I thought china was going to help with the greece bailout	05:43
strannik1	I dunno if theyre still going to send over the money	05:43
GeneralAntilles	Greece needs to get its house in order.	05:43
Tronic	strannik1: They pulled out, apparently due to the mess with Greece not being able/willing to make those budget cuts.	05:43
GeneralAntilles	Bailouts aren't going to help there.	05:43
strannik1	Tronic: greece should just leave ..they will end up being a bitch of europe	05:44
strannik1	If it doesnt end in war	05:44
Tronic	Iceland is an interesting country in that that they simply decided not to pay their debts.	05:44
strannik1	Or a second euro currency should be made to help the weaker states	05:44
Tronic	strannik1: Their own currency won't really solve any of the issues.	05:45
strannik1	Well it will .. They could regulate their own inflation for instance	05:45
GeneralAntilles	Alright, it's been fun gentlemen, but I've got to get up early tomorrow to vote. 'night.	05:46
strannik1	Night night .. What you voting for?	05:46
strannik1	Peace , freedom and pink furry elephants?	05:46
GeneralAntilles	City council elections and a handful of power-grabbing referendums.	05:46
GeneralAntilles	So, "underdog" and "no."	05:47
strannik1	Go get em!! And remember in the ussr you could vote too :) haha	05:47
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	05:47
GeneralAntilles	later	05:47
Tronic	strannik1: Assuming that Greece switched to Drakhma, the value of that would be next to nothing. Now, their internal market might seem good then but they couldn't afford to import anything anymore.	05:47
strannik1	I think its interesting how the pirate party is getting more and more votes	05:47
Tronic	strannik1: Banks would get huge losses from the public debt shrinking with the currency change.	05:48
strannik1	Tronic: low currency for greece would actually be excellent . It would mean a lot of foreign investment	05:48
strannik1	Therefore jobs	05:48
strannik1	Facilities , etc	05:49
Tronic	strannik1: Why would anyone invest in Greece?	05:49
strannik1	If the currency was so cheap	05:49
Tronic	It is a country infested with massive corruption.	05:49
strannik1	Say you could open a hamburger shop for just 100 bucks there	05:49
berndhs	Tronic: if its dirt cheap to buy the corruption, its still attractive to investors	05:49
strannik1	Yea	05:49
Tronic	strannik1: Yes, but you also get almost no profits at all (in USD/EUR because the local currency is so weak).	05:50
strannik1	Thats why having an own currency is good	05:50
Tronic	berndhs: Good point.	05:50
strannik1	Tronic: well if everybody starts going in because its cheap it will eventually raise the currency	05:51
ieatlint	haha, it's still going	05:51
strannik1	And even if you dont make a lot of money at first it might be a good long term investment	05:51
strannik1	Look at cocacola and pepsi	05:52
strannik1	They will sell you the drinks at a loss if they have to	05:52
Tronic	Well, at least they have very strong military forces. It appears that a lot of the bailout money so far has gone into new tanks and battleships.	05:52
strannik1	Brb	05:52
ieatlint	keep fighting for the proletariat, comrades	05:54
ieatlint	(there, that should stir it a bit longer)	05:54
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berndhs	we haven't argued deb vs rpm all month	05:55
strannik1	Does anyone know what the socialist movement in london was all about?	05:59
* Tronic sings The Internationale		05:59
strannik1	The people gathering at st pauls	06:00
Tronic	strannik1: Black movement, actually (AFAIK)	06:00
strannik1	Yea the media keeps saying its the blacks lol	06:00
strannik1	So the blacks want socialism?	06:00
Tronic	No, they want new flatscreen tellies.	06:01
strannik1	Hahahaha XD	06:01
strannik1	Yea and iphones	06:01
strannik1	But they left the bookstores intact	06:01
Tronic	No wonder.	06:01
strannik1	Education should be forced upon people ha	06:02
strannik1	Funny how in the ussr the peasants took over the farm lands and killed the previous owners	06:02
strannik1	They didnt know how to make good use of the farm land , and manage it	06:03
Tronic	On a more serious note, there has been a very strong clash between classes (labour vs. "the suits") in London (dunno of the rest of UK) long before those riots.	06:03
strannik1	So it ended up in famines	06:03
strannik1	This is what i dont get.. Everybody has the chance to compete in the market	06:04
strannik1	It seems fair to me .. Everybody has to work hard	06:05
Tronic	Well, that's the problem. In socialism everybody must be equal. In market economy you get ahead if you are better.	06:05
strannik1	Not neccesarily if you are better , but if you are hard working i would say	06:06
Tronic	In an ideal capitalistic society everybody has the same starting point and some finish off better than others.	06:06
strannik1	A lot of the labour complain that ceos dont do any work ... I dunno if that is true	06:06
strannik1	Tronic: yea and everyone has a choice which path to take	06:07
SpeedEvil	hard working, and lucky.	06:07
strannik1	90% work 10%luck .. A teacher used to tell us before we took exams	06:08
Tronic	strannik1: But if you are stupid, less lucky or whatever (assuming attributes you cannot change yourself), you may end up at the bottom.	06:08
Tronic	The reality is that people are not "created" equal.	06:08
berndhs	hard working, lucky, helpful uncle, ...	06:08
SpeedEvil	Tronic: ugly	06:08
Tronic	In a socialist society everybody is forced to finish equal.	06:08
berndhs	again, unless you have a helpful relative	06:09
strannik1	Or if you are superclever but you are a lazy bum who just cant be fucked	06:09
Tronic	Also, there is no ideal capitalistic society because in reality some already have wealth while others have to start from the bottom. The existing wealth may be used to prevent new competitors from entering the market.	06:10
strannik1	But those who start at the bottom have less risk	06:11
strannik1	They have nothing to lose	06:11
strannik1	Its kinda like in a casino	06:11
strannik1	It doesnt matter if you are playing roulette with 100 , or 100,000	06:11
strannik1	Its actually exactly the same	06:12
Tronic	A typical example is that of an important company (say, Intel) forcing its customers not to use the competitor's product by threatening to stop selling to them otherwise.	06:12
SpeedEvil	Having no safety net reduces the ability of those one step up fromthe bottom to try to improve themselves.	06:12
SpeedEvil	As their risk is much higher.	06:12
Tronic	So, Dell cannot ship PCs with AMD CPUs because then they would no longer have access to Intel hardware.	06:12
Tronic	The governments interfere by setting antitrust limitations, trying to prevent such behavior.	06:13
strannik1	Meh , generally the more capitalistic a country is the better	06:15
Tronic	Capitalistic or liberal?	06:15
Tronic	The latter meaning completely unregulated markets.	06:16
strannik1	Government intervention should only apply to essential needs.	06:16
strannik1	Tronic: probably liberal . But with a very few limitations	06:16
Tronic	Allowing free competition on a market is a rather essential need, wouldn't you say?	06:17
strannik1	I would actually yea	06:17
Tronic	If a monopoly corporation can block everybody else out, I don't see how the free market could function.	06:17
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strannik1	Tronic: that is tricky actually yea	06:18
strannik1	Well microsoft is monopolistic for example	06:19
strannik1	Is it that bad?	06:19
Tronic	They would be much more so if it weren't for the law preventing them.	06:19
berndhs	the problem with all these systems is that they are not stable	06:20
Tronic	E.g. consider forcing laptop manufacturers to only ship with Windows preinstalled.	06:20
berndhs	free markets don't tend to stay free, "fair" systems like socialism or anarchy don't stay fair	06:20
Tronic	How could one sell an alternative OS if everybody has to pay for the preinstalled Windows in any case?	06:20
SpeedEvil	And requiring bootloaders that do not allow unsigned code.	06:20
SpeedEvil	Tronic: that's in the case in the UK pretty much.	06:20
SpeedEvil	You can't get refunds	06:20
Tronic	Yep.	06:21
strannik1	You can always build your own pc .. Buy a mac	06:21
strannik1	With a laptop you would be struggling	06:22
berndhs	soon you will get safe, authenticated signed boot loaders. Good luck making your own OS then	06:22
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Tronic	berndhs: Not gonna happen (as a mandatory feature) on PC, though... But it is already on all other devices.	06:23
strannik1	I hope that won't happen	06:23
Tronic	On PC historically always the more open/compatible system wins.	06:23
SpeedEvil	historically, yes.	06:24
strannik1	It has been true for mobile devices and consoles	06:24
SpeedEvil	If hardware makers figure out how to get a cut of 'appz' revenue...	06:24
strannik1	Porn	06:25
Tronic	SpeedEvil: Pretty much the only company that could pull that off is Intel but not even them as long as AMD is well alive (anyone remember Athlon64 vs. Intel trying to phase out x86?)	06:25
strannik1	Yea	06:26
Tronic	Haven't seen many Itaniums around but AMD's 64 bit arch is everywhere.	06:26
strannik1	True	06:26
SpeedEvil	Your average user does not care about openness.	06:27
SpeedEvil	They care about 'will it run crysis at xpfs'	06:27
SpeedEvil	Or 'does it run the internet'	06:27
strannik1	Haha lol yea	06:27
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: no	06:27
SpeedEvil	It's only if there are enough niche users, that it's a worthwhile marketing opportunity that there is a pressure towards continued openness.	06:27
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: business >> home	06:28
berndhs	Intel has been promoting Trusted Boot to redhat et al	06:28
SpeedEvil	And yes - there is that.	06:28
strannik1	There should be more hackers around	06:28
Tronic	SpeedEvil: The average user doesn't but the extremely heterogenous PC industry appears to be the force that keeps everything free/open.	06:28
strannik1	The new kids are too impatient	06:29
strannik1	And the hacker community today just sucks	06:29
strannik1	Yea i dont think it will go down the route of everything being closed down	06:29
strannik1	Having to have signed software to run	06:30
strannik1	Tho who knows	06:30
Tronic	SpeedEvil: E.g. UEFI doesn't get much attention until Asus and others start putting it on their motherboards, despite Intel's best efforts.	06:30
berndhs	it's all for your saftety :)	06:30
Tronic	The BTX standard pushed by Intel died at birth because the M/B manufacturers preferred the better compatibility of ATX.	06:30
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berndhs	oh well	06:32
berndhs	good night	06:32
SpeedEvil	Hackers getting distracted into pointless ventures, like android ROMs, and apple cracking is depressing.	06:32
SpeedEvil	night!	06:32
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strannik1	I am off to bed	06:33
strannik1	Night all	06:34
strannik1	Getting 4 hours of sleep :((	06:34
Tronic	One manufacturer, one ecosystem, one OS - that's the model where you always end up with no right to tinker.	06:34
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Tronic	Fortunately the PC is the opposite of Nazi Germany.	06:35
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Tronic	Well, it was nice chatting politics and whatnot with you lads for a change. I'm off to gym->	06:36
SpeedEvil	Have fun.	06:36
Tronic	Thanks :)	06:37
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hiemanshu	is there printing support in harmattan yet?	06:49
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DocScrutinizer	haha	07:00
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hiemanshu	DocScrutinizer: why do laugh? :P	07:25
ieatlint	me not know	07:25
dm8tbr	some CUPS and a ui to send files to it shouldn't be too hard... :)	07:30
SpeedEvil	Is it posssible to talk to bluetooth printers with the existing modules though.	07:42
SpeedEvil	Because if you can't, you can't install cups	07:42
SpeedEvil	well - you can, but you can't use it	07:43
SpeedEvil	Well - not bt	07:44
dm8tbr	hm? cups could still talk to network printers using various protocols	07:48
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hiemanshu	yeah, I have a shared printer, and wanted to print emails without powering on laptop, could probably write a UI for it	07:49
dm8tbr	I wonder how you'd dump the email though	07:57
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hiemanshu	email attachments :P	08:08
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chpwn	this page says the 16GB N9 should have 9.7GB for user data: http://www.nokia.co.za/za-en/support/faq/?action=singleFAQ&caseid=FA136377_en_US	08:18
chpwn	but mine shows "Total Memory: 8.46 GB" and then "User data: 179.5 of 2.1GB	08:19
chpwn	"	08:19
chpwn	I was able to find this discussion reporting a similar issue, but it didn't seem to have a solution: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/t5/Maemo-and-MeeGo-Devices/16gb-N9-but-it-shows-8gb-in-the-memory-menu/td-p/1199385	08:19
chpwn	Ignore me. A reboot fixed it. nevermind.	08:28
ieatlint	i'm already on it	08:28
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Tronic	Photo printing from gallery app would be cool.	08:46
Sazpaimon_	does the N9 wifi driver have packet injection	08:51
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Corsac	I would doubt it	08:52
psycho_oreos	if its based on mac80211 framework then it should. Whether or not will aegis allow you to muck around and do proper wireless pentesting is something else	08:53
Sazpaimon_	i also really wish they would use a chip that did AP mode	08:58
Sazpaimon_	adhoc mode needs to die	08:58
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psycho_oreos	I thought that chipset was supposed to be capable of master/AP mode. Well at least according to http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers wl1271 is listed as yes to AP mode	09:03
psycho_oreos	according to the specifics, it may require a different firmware for Access-Point (maybe they're referring to access point/master mode)?	09:03
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Corsac	I didn't even tried wifi hotspot yet	09:04
Corsac	but with n900 tethering through usb was just enough for me	09:04
Corsac	going wireless isn't really useful and takes too much battery	09:04
hiemanshu	wireless is useful when you have multiple machines	09:08
psycho_oreos	its another way if you look at it from this perspective than using USB networking and to have the device sucking off laptop's power	09:08
psycho_oreos	well not exactly, wireless is handy when you have multiple mobile workstations and you don't have access to proper networking equipment handy	09:09
hiemanshu	that, or if you are in my position and ISPs dont want to give you proper internet :P	09:09
psycho_oreos	I'm sure its more or less the same reasoning if for instance you had an android device with SIM card/CDMA and is connected to internet. Setting up USB networking is somewhat a little complex but I'm sure users will find hotspot somewhat more friendly when setting it up is a few button clicks away	09:11
Sazpaimon_	psycho_oreos, yeah but the firmware is closed	09:14
Sazpaimon_	and i dont think there's anything for ARM that does AP mode	09:14
psycho_oreos	besides that, AP mode can also be used in various other wasys, like for example it can be used for pentesting.. as a target or as the attacker setting up a honeypot	09:14
Sazpaimon_	also that page says wl1271 isnt capable of monitor mode	09:15
Sazpaimon_	but im pretty sure it is	09:15
psycho_oreos	Sazpaimon_, I wouldn't know right now but I wouldn't say AP mode isn't possible until its been fully ruled out	09:15
Sazpaimon_	actually wait what did the N900 have	09:15
Sazpaimon_	wl1251?	09:15
psycho_oreos	wl1251	09:15
Sazpaimon_	okay	09:16
Sazpaimon_	so that does support monitor mode yeah	09:16
Sazpaimon_	and the N9 has wl1271 which apparently doesnt support monitor mode	09:16
Sazpaimon_	so it might not be able to do packet injection	09:16
psycho_oreos	probably not as yet	09:17
psycho_oreos	thought it might though, I should ask in #linux-wireless however	09:17
Sazpaimon_	but it does to AP mode, interesting that the hotspot app does adhoc mode then'	09:17
psycho_oreos	again I'm not sure why but if you go to wl1271 specifics page you'll see that it seems it requires a different firmware possibly to enable AP mode.. not to mention you needed to install and configure hostapd	09:18
Sazpaimon_	yeah	09:18
psycho_oreos	I guess for developers its easier for them to program it that way :þ	09:19
Sazpaimon_	so no injection, no AP mode	09:19
psycho_oreos	iwconfig wlan0 mode ad-hoc, etc, etc, etc	09:19
psycho_oreos	probably not as yet	09:19
Sazpaimon_	and even when a kernel module that adds it comes out, we cant add it thanks to aegis	09:20
psycho_oreos	looks like the firmware doesn't support rfmon. Though there might be a bit of chink in the armour: "TI has licensed the FW to several partners that may be interested in helping you to implement a sniffer."	09:23
psycho_oreos	http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/307/p/139041/500836.aspx	09:24
psycho_oreos	you can't load/unload modules as root?	09:25
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psycho_oreos	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1074611&postcount=27	09:28
psycho_oreos	sounds like as if N950 has more of a chance than N9 in succeeding rfmon and ultimately packet inject	09:29
psycho_oreos	s/inject/injection/	09:29
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: sounds like as if N950 has more of a chance than N9 in succeeding rfmon and ultimately packet injection	09:29
qronic	who knows on which stage (and where in code) SEAL bit is set into /sys/kernel/security/validator/enabled?	09:31
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alterego	Can someone tell me what package devel-su is in?	10:02
hiemanshu	alterego: busybox-devel-su	10:05
alterego	Thanks	10:06
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qronic	what chip is responsible for the top (talk) speaker? card 0: dfl61twl4030 [dfl61-twl4030], or	10:12
qronic	card 1: dfl61dac33 [dfl61-dac33]	10:12
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Corsac	hmhm, does anyone know what rd mode and rd flags do on N9/950?	11:05
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Venemo	good morning everyone :)	11:12
jonni	Corsac: they dont do much, you can disable some watchdogs with it, and enable the serial console pins that are under n950 battery.	11:19
qronic	PR1.1 came on N9!	11:21
qronic	just	11:22
jonni	serial-console is the only semi usefull feature, since with that you can remove fix malf state	11:22
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deram	any way to get to N9 serial pins?	11:24
Stskeeps	heh, good fucking luck on those :)	11:24
qronic	week 40	11:25
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qronic	oh, btw, look here http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/	11:27
qronic	beta3 for n950? what's that? is it pr1.1?	11:27
gri	qronic: really? Damn, don't have network connectivity on the n9 here :(	11:27
qronic	yep, downloading it now, 200mb	11:28
gri	also 39-5?	11:28
qronic	nope, week 40	11:28
qronic	I guess it's the same basically	11:29
qronic	that beta3 for n950 folder was created today, kernel files there are compiled on 29th of Oct	11:29
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gri	my n9 doesn't find updates (on 3g)	11:30
X-Fade	Update once more.	11:30
deram	mine neither.	11:30
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deram	oh, now I see 20.2011.40-4	11:31
qronic	yep	11:31
gri	hmm, then mine is too stupid to say "connection too bad" and just displays "device is up to date" when clicking refresh in updates	11:32
qronic	maybe they're rolling it in some countries first	11:33
qronic	what's your battery %?	11:33
gri	84	11:33
qronic	not the case, then	11:34
gri	Well, I check at home again, can't update from here anyway	11:34
decibyte	where's the "check for update" button?	11:35
mece	decibyte, settings->applications->manage	11:35
gri	settings -> programs -> updates	11:35
gri	damn, too slow :)	11:35
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decibyte	yeah, just found it. there's no updates for me :(	11:36
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mece	oo,I have an update too! for sdk connectivity tool :)	11:37
decibyte	oh, i _do_ have updated. yay!	11:38
decibyte	*updates	11:38
deram	Updating 0 %	11:38
X-Fade	sdk for beta3 is still uploading, so I'd suggest you wait for a bit :)	11:39
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alterego	Heh#	11:39
qronic	so what is beta3? Pr1.1?	11:39
gri	So we have update-day, n9, qt sdk and necessitas? :)	11:40
X-Fade	qronic: Not exactly, but close.	11:40
deram	I hope the N9 update is compatible with sdk...	11:40
X-Fade	b3 has updated qt components and a few small other fixes.	11:40
* gri loves the black menu bars of pr 1.1		11:41
X-Fade	But it is compatible with 34-1 and up.	11:41
qronic	btw, developers have no control over disabling locking screen? For exmaple, I want to have a timer running for 2 minutes, so I can't make the display not lock for these 2 min?	11:42
qronic	if lock period is set to 1 min	11:42
RST38h	Well, the display actually locks faster than the period	11:42
RST38h	I have no idea why	11:42
gri	qronic: I think you can since games can do that	11:43
gri	and there's an app in ovi store which blocks the screen from locking	11:43
leinir	qronic: sure, you can force the screen to not lock until you allow it again... look through the screen control api, not sure where it is but i know i ran across it at some point :)	11:44
qronic	thanks, guys, it's good, now I canl email the author of MTimer :)	11:44
petteri	I see the update also. Updating right now	11:44
petteri	for N9	11:45
RST38h	What update? There is an update?	11:45
* leinir is working on an NFC powered update for his tea (and eggs and pasta and whatever else) timer app... :)		11:45
qronic	scroll up a bit )	11:45
qronic	updating right now	11:46
alterego	Heh	11:49
alterego	leinir: I bought 10 NFC stickers the other day :)	11:49
alterego	Still contemplating what to stick them to :)	11:49
alterego	TV is one, and my laptop.	11:49
gri	sticker the cat, one gets diet food, the other not :P	11:49
leinir	alterego: Tehee :)	11:50
leinir	i picked up a bunch of them at devdays in Munich ;)	11:50
leinir	also made sure to grab a bunch for my little brother's uni project - scored them two N9s and a set of four type1, four type2 and four mifare tags for their mobile project next semester :)	11:51
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qronic	not a good sign, update has failed, asks to retry or cancel	11:53
qronic	retry: downloads another 313kb and tries again	11:55
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qronic	I feel like it's gon fail again, probably will have to reboot and then try again	11:55
leinir	hmm... wondering if it might'be been published a little too early :)	11:56
leinir	as in, the information the update is there is	11:57
leinir	so that the notification is made before the actual data's done uploading and spreading to the various mirrors	11:57
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qronic	I think the actual data was uploaded on week 40-41	11:59
RST38h	Contradicting earlier reports from the Guardian, Reuters reported late Monday that four sources close to the matter have confirmed that WebOS is being sought by companies, potentially Oracle, and that HP is weighing the benefits of a potential sale.	11:59
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qronic	why would oracle need it? btw, I've read reoprts how good webos is, but got the touchpad on the sale and damn, webos is a crap next to harmattan	12:00
qronic	at least on the UI side	12:00
qronic	ok, it failed again	12:01
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deram	qronic: failed downloading or updating?	12:04
qronic	updating	12:04
qronic	resetted, trying again	12:05
deram	I'm updating at 58%	12:05
qronic	I've never seen anything other than 0% :)	12:05
* ArkanoiD_ browses xkb config trying to find damn autocapitalization rules		12:06
chouchoune	21%	12:06
ArkanoiD_	no idea where can it be	12:06
chouchoune	is it normal that it switchs to flight mode during the update ?	12:06
X-Fade	chouchoune: yes	12:06
chouchoune	(just after 17%)	12:06
chouchoune	ok, great	12:06
deram	at 0% it probably does integrity checking for the update.	12:06
chouchoune	thanks	12:06
decibyte	ArkanoiD_: please tell us if you find it	12:07
deram	yep.. in device with quite usable shift, there is no reason for autocapitalize	12:08
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deram	woh... update restarted phone, asked pin, and asked security code... just that the virtual keyboard took about a minute to load...	12:17
Stskeeps	reindexing happened, probably	12:17
Stskeeps	tracker	12:17
Stskeeps	:P	12:17
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decibyte	it's almost like xmas :)	12:18
decibyte	even better	12:18
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djszapi	X-Fade lbt is this site served by you ? http://apps.formeego.org/applications/	12:22
X-Fade	djszapi: yes	12:22
djszapi	Do you use the Open Collaboration Services Standard in the background ?	12:22
X-Fade	djszapi: yes	12:22
djszapi	We are about to make a ocs account plugin. Just thought, might be useful for you as well, not just for us, Gluon.	12:22
X-Fade	We're not providing the account part yet though.	12:23
djszapi	is it planned ?	12:23
X-Fade	djszapi: http://apps.formeego.org/ocs/providers.xml	12:23
djszapi	oh grat.	12:23
djszapi	great*	12:23
X-Fade	djszapi: It is a nice to have, but it is not planned atm.	12:23
leinir	weeell... ocs is all about social distribution, it'd be pretty cool if you got that in there - it's something that no other platform has, so... :)	12:24
X-Fade	Yeah, but right now the priority is still in getting the thing working ;)	12:24
djszapi	sure.	12:24
X-Fade	But I agree that it would be cool.	12:24
X-Fade	And some parts would be reasonably easy to add.	12:25
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djszapi	mmm, attica is not available by default on this platform. We might need to package that into the account plugin.	12:25
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qronic	X-Fade: are there any logs to see why the update fails?	12:25
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djszapi	qronic: what sort of update ?	12:25
leinir	X-Fade: priorities++ ;)	12:26
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X-Fade	qronic: I have no idea, not my area of expertise.	12:26
qronic	I see	12:26
qronic	<djszapi>: PR1.1 for N9	12:26
X-Fade	qronic: fwiw, my N9 updated fine just 10 mins ago.	12:26
djszapi	qronic: you mean ssu ?	12:26
qronic	yeah, but mine is stuck on 0% and then fails	12:26
pinheiro_	were does one report bugs?	12:27
djszapi	pinheiro_: there are no bugs on Harmattan :D	12:27
qronic	<djszapi> that came over-the-air for N9 users	12:27
decibyte	my 3g connection dropped a few mb before the download was completed :'(	12:27
djszapi	pinheiro_: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3906	12:28
djszapi	pinheiro_:http://developer.nokia.com/bugs	12:28
pinheiro_	for some reason my n950 keeps asking me for random account passwords all the time is that new?	12:28
decibyte	oh! it doesn't hav to re-download all of it. hooray!	12:28
X-Fade	pinheiro_: I got that too all of a sudden this weekend.	12:29
djszapi	qronic: I am not getting you	12:29
X-Fade	pinheiro_: After I entered all the passwords once, it stopped.	12:29
djszapi	X-Fade: do you have an idea why "osc" needs static qemu ?	12:29
djszapi	why the stock qemu does not work ?	12:29
pinheiro_	X-Fade: it wont stop	12:29
X-Fade	djszapi: Because it runs it inside the chroot?	12:30
djszapi	X-Fade: cannot dynamic qemu be used inside chroot ?	12:30
djszapi	probably not, so question is: the rason :)	12:30
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djszapi	reason*	12:30
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X-Fade	djszapi: If you want to install complete arm libc and every dependency down the tree etc ;)	12:31
decibyte	qronic: did you get past 0%?	12:31
Stskeeps	dynamic qemu can't be used inside chroot	12:31
djszapi	X-Fade pretty unlucky, we do not have qemu on archlinux :/	12:31
qronic	decibyte: no	12:31
X-Fade	djszapi: Can't you just compile it?	12:31
qronic	install goes like this in ps ax: 5772 root apt-desktop add-interesting mp-harmattan-001-pr libcontentaction	12:31
X-Fade	djszapi: There are instructions on the meego wiki about it iirc.	12:32
decibyte	qronic: poor you. i thought mine was stuck too, but it just moved to 2%.	12:32
djszapi	X-Fade: I would like to make a packge, if I spend the time with it. Arch is a common distribution, and I am pretty sure others face the same issue.	12:32
djszapi	package*, but that will require more time when I find that.	12:32
pinheiro_	btw wasnt the radio suposed to not work on the n950?	12:32
qronic	I guess, I'll have to wait for stand-alone flasher and image	12:32
X-Fade	djszapi: Can't you steal the packaging from another distro? Not familiar with arch.	12:32
djszapi	X-Fade: no, arch was stolen by other distros :p	12:33
djszapi	like chakra ..	12:33
djszapi	X-Fade: do you have that link off-hand ?	12:33
X-Fade	djszapi: no	12:33
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* jreznik is downloading the update, slow but it works		12:34
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djszapi	X-Fade: I will make a try to install deb or rpm on arch :p	12:36
X-Fade	djszapi: Does alien work there?	12:36
djszapi	hope so, or dpkg	12:36
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djszapi	X-Fade: I do not find a (meego) wikipage for building static qemu	12:44
djszapi	hi faenil o/ See your short talk in the Qt Dev Days video :)	12:45
faenil	djszapi: ahahah :D yeah xD that was fun, glad it was a short one XD	12:45
faenil	the real interview was much longer, I'm glad they only used those 5 seconds :D	12:45
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petteri	update worked nicely. N9 seems notable faster to use	12:53
decibyte	did the vibration change in the new firmware?	12:54
petteri	don't know. I have not used it	12:54
faenil	update??	12:55
faenil	which update?	12:55
decibyte	it just made a lot more noise on the table that i think it used to. maybe it's just my imagination. but i'd really like it to vibrate more than it used to.	12:56
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decibyte	faenil: update for the n9	12:56
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jreznik	petteri: really? faster? on n950 I'm feeling it's slower with PR1.1 but I hope it's true - it's unusable as music player, every action leads to mmus--ic-cc skipping...	12:57
deram	I'd like to see vibrate update, that allows you to disable vibrate when phone is not in pocket.	12:57
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faenil	decibyte: which version?	12:57
alterego	Oh neat, flasher has a -T option that allows you to supply an overlay of the image you're flashing on to a device.	12:57
decibyte	faenil: erh... 1.1? ask the other guys :)	12:58
deram	PR1.1 it is	12:59
faenil	yey! When was it released?	12:59
decibyte	faenil: as in "i don't know" - not to be rude.	12:59
deram	today?	12:59
petteri	jreznik: yes nice and snappy	12:59
faenil	wow :)	12:59
faenil	decibyte: np ;)	12:59
deram	I'm having bit studdering in some places... nothing much open...	12:59
deram	might help when restarted,,,	13:00
faenil	like?	13:00
decibyte	hello, pretty music controls on lock screen :)	13:00
faenil	:)	13:00
deram	decibyte: but not in ovi music...	13:00
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decibyte	deram: why not? but i don't use ovi music.	13:01
deram	I don't know.. just that there was no next button there when playing genreradio	13:01
decibyte	oh, well... still no ovi music in denmark :/	13:03
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djszapi	hi M4rtinK o/ Do you know whether there is a bullet-proof wiki about building qemu statically from scratch ?	13:26
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faenil	darn PR 1.1 is not available here! :(	13:28
M4rtinK	djszapi: no idea, I actually know qemu from a high level user perspective only	13:28
djszapi	M4rtinK: we should probably add the build steps to your section as soon as we figure it out.	13:29
decibyte	faenil: i had to tap the update button in the top right corner of the "manage applications" update screen to see it	13:30
deram	I had to go twice in to that updates menu...	13:32
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qronic	updates are stored in /var/cache/apt/archives/	13:35
qronic	227.1M /var/cache/apt/archives/	13:36
qronic	gonna rm -rf 'em and start again	13:36
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ArkanoiD_	fsck	13:39
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ArkanoiD_	got all resource-consuming tracker-store just like on n900	13:39
X-Fade	ArkanoiD_: after firmware update?	13:40
ArkanoiD_	nope, just "happened"	13:40
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qronic	<ArkanoiD_> what you're using? n9/n950?	13:40
ArkanoiD_	n950	13:41
* ArkanoiD_ rebboted -- it was definitely nuts		13:41
djszapi	so any Ui designers apart from the never available wazd ? :p	13:41
ArkanoiD_	oh no	13:42
ArkanoiD_	it did not help	13:42
ArkanoiD_	it woke up again and still doing "something"	13:42
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ArkanoiD_	UI is almost unresponsive	13:43
ArkanoiD_	battery is draining fast	13:43
DocScrutinizer	yay, updates. IS any of that backed up by a flashable official image now? aka OCF?	13:43
ArkanoiD_	the most stupid thing is that gestures almost stopped working	13:45
ArkanoiD_	i get "random taps" instead	13:45
RST38h	Arkanoid <-- obviously did something to piss off gadget gods	13:49
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djszapi	Where are the Harmattan Qt Components documented ?	13:51
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mgedmin	djszapi, http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com, IIRC	13:55
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djszapi	mgedmin: so where do you actually see the qt components there documented ?	13:56
mgedmin	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/qt-components/qt-components.html?tab=1	13:56
mgedmin	and the generic qt components are at http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/qt4/qdeclarativeelements.html?tab=1	13:56
Venemo	thanks mgedmin, I didn't know	13:57
* RST38h moos at mgedmin		13:58
* mgedmin waves vaguely		13:58
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djszapi	mgedmin: thanks.	13:59
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djszapi	mgedmin: well the last one is not component thingie. That is more like plain QML	14:00
mgedmin	I'm a bit fuzzy on the terms	14:00
mgedmin	I though "component" == QML element	14:01
ArkanoiD_	is there something like iotop or conky?	14:01
RST38h	iotop exists	14:01
djszapi	mgedmin: components mean native look'n feel to me. Pure QML does not know that.	14:01
RST38h	even part of developer tools, I think	14:01
RST38h	conky is actually a visualisation tool, not a measurement tool	14:01
mgedmin	djszapi, right, but some "upstream" QML elements are still necessary; meego-specific ones don't cover everything	14:02
djszapi	at any rate .. this link aforementioned sounds like a good reference on the landing page.	14:02
djszapi	added	14:03
kirma	great.	14:06
ArkanoiD_	omfg	14:06
kirma	upgraded N9 to PR1.1 with maybe a bit of apt-get force, and now I don't have localizations.	14:06
ArkanoiD_	it remembered all gestures i made while it was non-responsive and now is trying to perform corresponding actions	14:06
kirma	for instance, PIN/security code buttons are no more numbers	14:07
kirma	and application names are "!! Something"	14:07
RST38h	that means they have not been translated	14:07
RST38h	should not have used apt-get	14:08
kirma	obviously.	14:08
RST38h	should have figured out what packages prevent upgrade, remove these packages, then upgrade normally	14:08
* RST38h awaits this evening's update process with fear		14:09
mgedmin	ArkanoiD_, :D	14:11
mgedmin	so, I opened a 1300-page PDF (the pages are scanned bitmaps, not text!)	14:11
deram	swype+terminal+ssh+irssi=plain wrong things to random channels	14:12
mgedmin	N9 did not even blink	14:12
mgedmin	until I locked the screen	14:12
mgedmin	and then I experienced the same thing: my unlock gestures started working after a 3-minute wait (and an OOM-killer killing process call-history message in dmesg)	14:12
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* ArkanoiD_ wonders how long event queue is :-)		14:12
RST38h	the size of your disk?	14:15
kirma	I wonder what should I do next to get the damn phone fixed...	14:17
kirma	thankfully it's not bricked	14:17
qronic	reflash it with stock firmware	14:18
qronic	then apply PR1.1 properly	14:18
DocScrutinizer	stress --help	14:18
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: ^^^	14:18
mgedmin	?	14:19
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: better tha 1300 pp random pdf	14:20
DocScrutinizer	qronic: well, <DocScrutinizer> yay, updates. IS any of that backed up by a flashable official image now? aka OCF?	14:20
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frals	no idea why they arent publishing the fuckin images already	14:21
frals	beyond retarded	14:21
kirma	hah.	14:21
DocScrutinizer	kirma: qronic: I'd really be interested if you could flash downgrade this time, or if the new image again peeps up at some obscure 3rd party webpages/tools - if there's any for 40-4	14:22
kirma	now my phone is updating developer-mode, and at the moment the top-bar menu is losing entries and text in flight, and even has entries that are aligned in different orientations...	14:22
kirma	"eh"	14:22
DocScrutinizer	wow	14:23
Corsac	hey	14:23
kirma	I'm starting to suspect it's removing existing installations, starting from base software	14:24
mgedmin	my N9 is strangely warm	14:25
mgedmin	/usr/bin/messageserver is eating 100% CPU again	14:26
* vladest updating qtsdk		14:26
vladest	is there is new fw for 950?	14:26
* mgedmin kills it with fire (-9, since it ignores SIGTERM)		14:27
X-Fade	vladest: no, but this update for n9 is about the same as what you have on n950.	14:27
vladest	ah, ok	14:28
mgedmin	so swipe down now unconditionally closes apps? ugh, I don't think I'll like that	14:28
RST38h	mgedmin: login issue. kill.	14:28
X-Fade	mgedmin: You can disble it?	14:28
X-Fade	*disable	14:28
mgedmin	in PR 1.0, yes	14:28
RST38h	mgedmin: yes, swipe down closes apps by default, but can be disabled in some text file	14:28
kirma	heh. now the phone really uninstalled all the pieces that'd allow fixing it again	14:28
kirma	quite a feat	14:28
mgedmin	in PR 1.0 there's an option in the settings app	14:29
kirma	how to reflash n9 over usb?	14:29
mgedmin	kirma, take it to a Nokia Care Center -- they haven't published a firmware image, the bastards	14:29
Corsac	there's a firmware image available from Nokia servers	14:29
Corsac	but it's not really official	14:30
kirma	heh. thought about calling them, but I don't have a working phone...	14:30
kirma	is there a tool, too?	14:30
Corsac	flasher	14:30
Corsac	~google unbricking n9	14:30
kirma	hmmh	14:30
* X-Fade points to the topic		14:31
Corsac	X-Fade: the OCF won't help for N9	14:31
Corsac	http://www.stochasticgeometry.ie/2011/10/20/unbricking-n9/ worked for me	14:32
kirma	hmmh.	14:32
kirma	thanks	14:32
kirma	well, download link for the firmware of course doesn't work.	14:33
Corsac	see comments	14:34
sandst1	kirma: use http://www.symbian-toys.com/navifirm.aspx to download the image	14:34
Corsac	if you have a windows box	14:35
DocScrutinizer	Corsac: pointer	14:35
mgedmin	.exe	14:35
Corsac	DocScrutinizer: pointer?	14:35
sp3000	0x00000000	14:35
Corsac	:)	14:35
sandst1	try installing with wine?	14:35
sp3000	it's my favorite	14:35
DocScrutinizer	to 40-4 image on nokia fileserver	14:35
Corsac	ha, no	14:35
Corsac	no PR1.1 afaict	14:35
Corsac	well, there might be but I don't have it, sadly	14:36
sandst1	only 34-1 in the server, just checked	14:36
DocScrutinizer	yep, just what I thought	14:36
kirma	well, anything goes if it works	14:36
DocScrutinizer	kirma: you can get those files without the friggin navifirm	14:36
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Corsac	hmhm	14:37
Corsac	though	14:37
Corsac	a quick magic reveals that http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MUETOCUA/--LID--FiRe1314871641348/DFL61_HARMATTAN_20.2011.40-4-1_PR_LEGACY_001-OEM1-958_ARM.bin exists	14:37
DocScrutinizer	http://mrcrab.net/nokia/Nokia_N9.html?productType=RM-696&releaseID=6324395729&version=10.2011.34.1	14:37
Corsac	but maybe it's just the same 10.2011.34.1	14:37
Corsac	yeah, any filename exists	14:38
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DocScrutinizer	wut? lol	14:38
Corsac	there's some clever url redirects, the important parameters are before that, I guess	14:38
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hiemanshu	newer image?	14:40
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Corsac	hmhm, kernel didn't change	14:40
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DocScrutinizer	http://mrcrab.net/nokia/Nokia_N9.html?productType=RM-696&productID=4823499691	14:41
DocScrutinizer	could anybody try to downgrade flash to 34.1?	14:41
DocScrutinizer	;-D	14:42
Corsac	I don't think I'll upgrade on 3G so I'll wait for tonight to upgrade	14:43
kirma	nice N9 with one capability now: by pressing power button, it shows nokia logo	14:43
gri	huh? It always shows the nokia logo when shutting down	14:43
kirma	I'm really impressed by the fact that developer-mode upgrade actually removed base system	14:43
kirma	well, it shows nothing else when I power up... ever :I	14:44
X-Fade	kirma: What did you do? Enable developer mode?	14:44
Corsac	hmhm, no kernel update though	14:44
X-Fade	kirma: And then it didn't boot anymore?	14:44
kirma	actually, the manual upgrade was a bit funny, and after it it suggested upgrading developer mode... well, things started to disappear from menus and so on	14:44
djszapi	have anybody written an account plugin so far ? Seems a bit more work than I thought :p	14:44
w00t	X-Fade: afair, he did a forced upgrade with apt-get	14:44
djszapi	has*	14:44
kirma	planning to reflash once I get the image...	14:45
X-Fade	w00t: That is a recipe for disaster.	14:45
* gri gets http error 404 when doing apt-get update on the n9 :)		14:45
X-Fade	Just because you can, doesn't mean you should :)	14:45
kirma	obviously :)	14:45
kirma	really, not end of the world for me.	14:45
X-Fade	kirma: Did you try NSU?	14:46
Corsac	djszapi: are you trying to create a jabber account plugin?	14:46
kirma	just that the failure mode was almost hilarious	14:46
gri	djszapi: I did create an accounts-ui plugin in qml	14:46
kirma	"I'll upgrade this package - well, not really, but instead I remove the base installation"	14:46
Sput	sounds like something apt would do	14:47
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Sput	years ago, it removed X11 when I tried installing qt4.	14:47
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kirma	even better is seeing how things start to disappear from the system live	14:48
kirma	I mean, menus get shorter and whatnot	14:48
xranby	kirma: if for nokia manages to connect to wifi then you might be able to login over ssh	14:49
xranby	and fix this by reinstalling the removed packages	14:49
kirma	I don't believe this phone does anything before I completely reflash it	14:49
kirma	also, it doesn't really matter. less hassle with flasher, I bet.	14:49
xranby	kirma: sure flashing sounds like a safe option	14:50
xranby	to get things working again	14:50
DocScrutinizer	apt-get upgrade -> deprecated ... wait this was for fremantle, seems it's still valid	14:52
sandst1	kirma: reflashed my n9, now the 1.1 update is properly installing.	14:52
flux	it's always sad when a gui tool right-out deprecates a command-line one	14:53
djszapi	Corsac: ocs account plugin	14:53
flux	(instead of building upon the cli tool and improving it in the process)	14:53
djszapi	gri oh col	14:53
djszapi	cool*	14:54
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gri	well not that cool as it's ugly code :P	14:54
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Corsac	djszapi: ocs like for the building service?	14:55
DocScrutinizer	kirma: would you try to reflash it with latest available image, right now?	14:55
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X-Fade	Corsac: no, same name, different thing.	14:56
DocScrutinizer	flux: aiui that's exactly what at very least fremantle HAM did, it used apt-get via apt-worker thread	14:56
gri	djszapi: I have no idea how to save passwords more secretly than plain text, account creation is simple	14:56
flux	docscrutinizer, but then it did something additional to that in some cases?	14:57
djszapi	Corsac: OCS and OBS. They are different terms :)	14:57
DocScrutinizer	yes, it was "building upon the cli tool and improving it in the process"	14:57
Corsac	ok :)	14:57
Corsac	grmbl, the music player still can't do random album playback :(	14:58
djszapi	Corsac: our last OCS sprint: http://dot.kde.org/2011/05/18/open-collaboration-services-next-sprint :)	14:58
Corsac	k	14:59
DocScrutinizer	the music player has no friggin way to watch the actual playlist, not to think of editing it, or jumping forth (and maybe back) to random positions in the list	14:59
Corsac	djszapi: is it related to the freedombox initiative?	14:59
djszapi	I do not know what freedombox is	15:00
djszapi	sorry.	15:00
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Corsac	http://freedomboxfoundation.org/	15:00
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kirma	DocScrutinizer: well, which/where is latest available image?	15:01
DocScrutinizer	[2011-11-08 13:41:00] <DocScrutinizer> http://mrcrab.net/nokia/Nokia_N9.html?productType=RM-696&productID=4823499691	15:02
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flux	docscrutinizer, yes, but it didn't improve the cli tool, but rather did the improving part by itself, in the gui app	15:03
DocScrutinizer	flux: right	15:03
kirma	DocScrutinizer: I think I'm downloading that already	15:04
decibyte	is it really true there's an fm transceiver in n9? ...but no radio app (yet)?	15:04
DocScrutinizer	like does tar for the gzip/bzip etc binaries	15:04
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kirma	at least file name matches	15:04
DocScrutinizer	kirma: you're aware of that thread: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4728 ?	15:04
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DocScrutinizer	ForumHandset Firmware flasher for Nokia N9	15:05
xranby	decibyte: there exist a community made radio app that work on my n9	15:05
decibyte	xranby: cool. what's it called?	15:05
DocScrutinizer	I wonder if it works without dev-mode enabled	15:06
kirma	hum	15:06
xranby	decibyte: fmrx: http://my-meego.com/downloads/search.php?name=FM%20Radio	15:07
xranby	decibyte: i downloaded .deb file and moved it over to my n9 using a usb cable	15:08
xranby	FM Radio	15:08
xranby	decibyte: its sort of a prototype.. you have to manually tune into the station but it "work"	15:08
xranby	its missing an autotuner	15:09
decibyte	xranby: i'll take a look at it. thanks!	15:09
DocScrutinizer	http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=34639#post34639 >> Either way, one thing is for sure: It requires developer mode to work. <<	15:10
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xranby	decibyte: remember to plug in earphones, its using its cable for antenna :)	15:10
decibyte	xranby: as the n900 did (and almost every other phone, i guess)	15:11
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gri	LOL, the Nokia.de sites greets with Lumia phones and this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4vkYq8k9aD0 - The voice sounds like it was spoken by a trainee ..	15:19
gri	(well, german video)	15:19
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DocScrutinizer	ooh, and while I don't feel like commenting on that radio app on my-meego: The reason it needs BT enabled is the FMRX control is via same chip interface as BT, so BT needs to be enabled to get access to the radio function of the chip	15:33
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xranby	DocScrutinizerthanks, one mosytery explained :)	15:36
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xranby	mystery	15:36
decibyte	i'm just glad to find out it has fm tuner	15:36
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xranby	im looking for a good bluetooth keyboard	15:37
hiemanshu	one that you can duct tape to a N9 :P	15:37
xranby	hiemanshu: yes, preferably	15:37
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xranby	or perhaps something i can attach to the arm	15:38
xranby	a startrek	15:38
decibyte	haha	15:38
kirma	yet to try out my el cheapo dealextreme bt keyboard with N9	15:38
deram	there is few made for iPhone... wonder if those could be modded for N9 form	15:38
xranby	deram: i will check them out they probably work out of the box	15:38
DocScrutinizer	decibyte: it even has a FMTX, technically (though I seem to recall somebody claiming this special chip variant doesn't have it) - anyway it's useless as no antenna connected to the chip's pin, so it will not send anything	15:39
hiemanshu	xranby: logitech dinovo	15:39
hiemanshu	or something like that	15:39
deram	http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Bluetooth-Keyboard-Case-4G/dp/B004JW4E7U	15:39
deram	this for example	15:39
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DocScrutinizer	I think N9 doesn't work with any hw kbd	15:39
decibyte	DocScrutinizer: i saw that. isn't it just the same as n900? the transmitter wasn't really any good there, i think	15:40
deram	I saw some thread got n9 working with bt-keyboard	15:40
DocScrutinizer	decibyte: on N900 the FMTX was as good as it got designed to be, and it had a PCB antenna	15:40
xranby	hiemanshu: hmm thank you for the link.. i have to be carefull.. in order to get a keyboard with all the important {[]} ; easily accessible	15:40
deram	http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/11/connect-bluetooth-keyboard-n9/	15:41
xranby	would be hard to run any IDE and code on the phone wihtout them	15:41
decibyte	DocScrutinizer: okay. i only tried it once. the range was about 20cm and quality awful.	15:41
kirma	xranby: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/55401	15:41
decibyte	*sound quality	15:41
kirma	don't ask me about it being good, but it's cheap :)	15:41
xranby	kirma: looks decent	15:42
gri	djszapi: It's hard to recognize you on the ocs-blog picture :)	15:42
DocScrutinizer	decibyte: well, you can crank up N900 TX power, and by attaching e.g. a USB charger cable and/or headset it gets even stronger	15:42
xranby	deram: thanks nice info	15:42
djszapi	Pap7518	15:42
djszapi	gri why so ?	15:42
decibyte	DocScrutinizer: okay. didn't know that. i doesn't really matter anyways :)	15:42
decibyte	kirma: does it work with n9?	15:43
gri	djszapi: I wasn't expecting long hair :)	15:43
djszapi	long hair ?	15:43
gri	well, longer than you have now	15:43
kirma	I don't know, but to my knowledge (and as far as I tried quite a time ago), it should be bt (of course dealextreme can ship whatever...)	15:43
xranby	decibyte: looks like whats next to the n9 in this picture but with blue print on the keys http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/11/connect-bluetooth-keyboard-n9/	15:44
decibyte	xranby: may very well be	15:44
djszapi	gri: :)	15:45
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* djszapi is learning designing Ui interfaces :p		15:45
decibyte	speaking of peripherals, how does tv out work? usb-to-hdmi or...?	15:45
gri	djszapi: Wohoo :)	15:45
djszapi	gri: conference tomorrow, too	15:45
djszapi	:)	15:45
gri	about?	15:46
gri	ui?	15:46
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djszapi	gri: about many things, but my talk is the opening of the linux mobile session :p	15:46
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djszapi	mobile linux session is the most interesting to me.	15:46
gri	who would have guessed that :P	15:46
gri	the necessitas 0.3 installer always crashes :(	15:48
djszapi	because of aegis ? ;)	15:48
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gri	djszapi: my guess or the crash?	15:51
djszapi	gri: There is no central point of integration, i.e. presence-ui grabs information of it's interest from accounts db, thus to know how to extend it, I would need to know what is uses. Ppreferably access to presence ui sources or docs.	15:51
djszapi	gri: do not think that much, if android installer crashes, it must be aegis. It is that simple ;-)	15:51
gri	djszapi: Yeah, they somehow managed to get aegis into my ubuntu vm :D	15:52
* DocScrutinizer smiles like a clam at >>according to *http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_Bluetooth*, it possible with dbus...<< at http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=34131#post34131		15:52
djszapi	gri: There was some big idea of making accounts lib transparent to any ui workflow, so it only serves some very basic purposes, like enumerating accounts, and then you read xml directly.	15:52
djszapi	gri: I feel really bad, that I do not actually know what are those xml tags. There is even "plugin writing guide" in libaccounts-ui code. It has about page of text... one xml example, not much description. I guess I'll be reading thru its code next: to see if I can know anything	15:53
gri	djszapi: I also found that once	15:53
gri	I wrote to alberto margedan (listed as author)	15:53
gri	he replied he has quit Nokia ...	15:54
djszapi	big surprise :)	15:54
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matrixx	djszapi: do you know if registration is still ongoing on the 14:00 coffee break tomorrow?	15:54
djszapi	matrixx: I think it was closed on Monday morning. You might join anytime, but you do not get this attendee package.	15:55
matrixx	I can't make to register earlier	15:55
alterego	Urgh: https://qt.gitorious.org/qt-components/qt-components/blobs/master/src/meego/PageStackWindow.qml#line137	15:55
matrixx	djszapi: I've been registering, but I mean where can I get my badge	15:55
gri	djszapi: Since I did not know how to use libaccounts-ui, I just created the provider xml, created a qml plugin for accounts and wrote the account editing ui with qml	15:55
djszapi	matrixx: ohh, not sure. :) Can you ask Sergey please ?	15:55
matrixx	I'll email him	15:55
matrixx	thanks	15:56
alterego	That is probably one of the ugliest lines of code I've seen in a while, I find it kind of weird that it's valid.	15:56
djszapi	gri: was it a big job ?	15:56
gri	Not really	15:56
gri	when the accounts-ui starts your application, you can receive all data by creating a ProviderPluginProxy (or whatever it was called, don't have the exact name here)	15:57
gri	it tells you whether the Account* you got is going to be created or an existing one	15:58
kirma	ah, reflashing helped at least a bit. yet to see how much.	15:59
alterego	export AEGIS_FIXED_ORIGIN=com.nokia.maemo; dpkg --force -i qt-components_1.2~git20111102-2_armel.deb	16:00
alterego	bawlz	16:00
gri	djszapi: If the community repository is up, we could also create a generic accounts qml plugin so that someone who wants to create a ui only needs to supply .qml files	16:00
kirma	now it keeps cycling the "working" indicator, for many minutes already. wonder what's going on...	16:01
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DocScrutinizer	kirma: setup	16:08
DocScrutinizer	or rather formatting/flashing the bigger chunks of eMMC	16:08
DocScrutinizer	I'd not mess with it for at least 30 min - though I never seen this on N9(50) with my ~2 flashings so far	16:09
DocScrutinizer	(note that my prev posts were mere guesswork about what's going on)	16:11
flux	is there such a thing as a gift card to ovi store?	16:13
Corsac	btw, besides 'ip' in terminal, is there a way to know the current ip address?	16:14
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RST38h	moo, rm_you	16:15
qronic	well, I've tried several times, cleaned /var/cache/apt/archives/ - nada. I'll wait for firmware&flasher stand-alone	16:15
rm_work	moo RST38h	16:16
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kirma	hmmh. I suppose the flasher image was PR1.0. now fetching updates again...	16:16
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flux	heh, ovi store says to me "Hello, Anonymous" after signing in, I guess they figured my secret identity..	16:18
sandst1	kirma: yep. same here	16:19
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kirma	I get the feeling the PR1.1 update fails again for me... soon	16:25
kirma	stuck on 0%	16:25
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javispedro	Corsac, one thing re your open kernel thing, have you tried doing flasher -k zImage-.... -l -b ?	16:28
javispedro	Corsac, instead of -l -b -k zImage-... as you do now?	16:28
sandst1	kirma: did you do a cold flash..?	16:28
* javispedro fails to remember if the order of args in flasher is important		16:29
kirma	no, but non-cold flash did recover the device into otherwise reasonable state	16:29
kirma	maybe I'll copy the damn backup now and cold flash it	16:29
sandst1	kirma: i first did a non-cold flash, and upgrade failed (stuck on 0%), after a cold-flash it worked	16:29
sandst1	javispedro: not important	16:29
kirma	the positive side is that backups are still there	16:30
javispedro	hmh	16:30
sandst1	kirma: yeap. it's not touching the emmc at all	16:30
kirma	where those backups are? accessible in usb storage mode or not?	16:31
petteri	for me it stood about 15 minutes in 0%	16:31
sandst1	kirma: /home/user/MyDocs/.backups	16:32
kirma	... aand cold-flashing after backup.	16:37
DocScrutinizer	coldflash is useless	16:37
DocScrutinizer	for your problem at least	16:37
kirma	ehm hm	16:37
javispedro	has anyone seen a notification appearing on the lock screen, but then going into the messages/phonelog application and the message/missed call NOT being there?	16:37
kirma	DocScrutinizer: sandst1 has different experience. well, let's see.	16:38
Corsac	javispedro: let me check	16:38
Corsac	javispedro: yes	16:38
Corsac	(for the flasher thing, not for the notification)	16:39
DocScrutinizer	coldflash simply means it's not using the device NOLO but rather loads an auxiliary NOLO to RAM of device and executes that one to flasg a new NOLO to device	16:39
javispedro	:S	16:39
kirma	hmh.	16:39
Corsac	javispedro: I'll try the kernel flash once updated to PR1.1 too	16:39
javispedro	by then it'll surely not work	16:39
Corsac	javispedro: but are you aware to successful kernel flashs to N9?	16:39
javispedro	Corsac, you have several on the same thread	16:39
Corsac	well, the kernels source are identical	16:39
Corsac	(at least beta2/beta3)	16:39
javispedro	nope	16:39
javispedro	LOCALVERSION differs ;P	16:40
qronic	update goes like this:	16:40
qronic	15882 root sh -c /usr/bin/aegis-origin '/var/cache/apt/archives/meegofeedback-pulseaudio_0.7.4-5+0m6_armel.deb'	16:40
qronic	15883 root /usr/bin/aegis-origin /var/cache/apt/archives/meegofeedback-pulseaudio_0.7.4-5+0m6_armel.deb	16:40
qronic	15884 root sh -c aegis-deb-release /var/cache/apt/archives/meegofeedback-pulseaudio_0.7.4-5+0m6_armel.deb	16:40
qronic	15885 root aegis-deb-release /var/cache/apt/archives/meegofeedback-pulseaudio_0.7.4-5+0m6_armel.deb	16:40
Corsac	javispedro: hmmh	16:40
qronic	it install apps but % is 0	16:40
Corsac	javispedro: the debian versions were the same :/	16:40
javispedro	hm??	16:40
javispedro	they are not	16:40
javispedro	you have a N9?	16:40
qronic	no logs so far found, /var/log/apt/term.log has nothing about this	16:40
Corsac	yes	16:40
Corsac	javispedro: I mean http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta2/free/k/kernel/ vs http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/k/kernel/	16:41
qronic	boom, failed	16:41
javispedro	Corsac, "20113701" here	16:41
Corsac	what?!	16:41
MohammadAG	oh hey, Nokia didn't take javispedro after all	16:41
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: eh?	16:42
Corsac	javispedro: on your N9 or on the website?	16:42
DocScrutinizer	and hi1	16:42
javispedro	Corsac, on my PR1.1 N950	16:42
Corsac	ha	16:42
javispedro	Corsac, seemingly they've just copied beta2 folder	16:42
Corsac	yeah	16:42
javispedro	Corsac, maybe they're still uploading	16:42
Corsac	I think I'll find the GPL contact addres if there's any and ask for it, once upgraded :)	16:43
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade said "still uploading" - for the SDK though iirc	16:43
Corsac	ha. thanks	16:43
Corsac	I'm still a bit puzzled to that beta-naming, but hey :)	16:43
Corsac	javispedro: btw, on your n950, does accli -I returns “open mode” with a vanilla kernel?	16:45
javispedro	yep	16:45
Corsac	ok	16:45
Corsac	javispedro: I'm still puzzled about the signed module loading though	16:52
Corsac	javispedro: aiui from the thread, just rebuilding the kernel should just work, no need to disable aegis or so	16:53
javispedro	Corsac, and it does	16:53
javispedro	Corsac, the modules don't change, so the checksums match.	16:53
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Corsac	yeah, but http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=34657&postcount=144 confused me	16:54
DocScrutinizer	the funny part was the missing warning on N9	16:54
Corsac	especially since that's where you have a warranty to void :)	16:55
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: seems you missed 3 posts	16:56
djszapi	aheinecke: do you have libkdeedu packaged for harmattan ?	16:56
aheinecke	djszapi: no	16:57
sandst1	so. root ssh is disabled. ssh developer@<ip> works, devel-su doesn't work, nor with the pwd i had, neither with 'rootme'. any ideas..?	16:57
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aheinecke	djszapi: but i think it was packaged for fremantle i belive someone had marble running on an n900	16:57
djszapi	aheinecke: marble used pure Qt on mobile.	16:58
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aheinecke	ah ok	16:58
djszapi	but for kanagram, I need it :/	16:58
sandst1	you people still have devel-su working after pr 1.1?	17:00
jonni	sandst1: works for me atleast	17:00
djszapi	so what happened with this repository ? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/	17:00
DocScrutinizer	jonni: sshhh	17:00
javispedro	Corsac, as I've said, you void the warranty by doing _anything_	17:00
Corsac	yeah, but there's no warranty on n950, is there?	17:01
javispedro	Corsac, that includes booting a kernel you built yourself using the same config and sources.	17:01
SpeedEvil	No.	17:01
Corsac	so it's funny that a “warranty voided” warning is displayed on n950 and not on n9	17:01
djszapi	it is on N9 too	17:01
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javispedro	djszapi, for some reason it is not shown on some retail N9s	17:02
sandst1	DocScrutinizer: thanks	17:02
djszapi	I know the reason, but cannot really talk about it	17:02
javispedro	but I guess that'd be swiftly fixed in the next PR.	17:02
sandst1	jonni: ok. hmm..	17:03
kirma	heh. finally it's upgrading...	17:03
kirma	I wonder what config file is exactly the cause for this. maybe some extra repo?	17:04
djszapi	anybody willing to help with packaging ?	17:04
kirma	(this time I didn't recover anything from backup image before upgrade... and of course I should have done that after first reflash already)	17:04
sandst1	kirma: could be. my cold flashing deduction wasn't exactly waterproof :)	17:04
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djszapi	aheinecke: helping with packaging some dependency for kdeeud ? :)	17:05
ArkanoiD_	hmm, for some unknown reason "swipe down to close" gesture became extremely unreliable on my phone	17:05
djszapi	kdeedu*	17:05
ArkanoiD_	it works as tap to a random place on screen	17:05
ArkanoiD_	very annoying	17:05
javispedro	heh	17:05
SpeedEvil	ArkanoiD_: you know about portrait apps?	17:05
SpeedEvil	or landscape ones	17:05
aheinecke	djszapi: sorry working atm, what do you need packaged?	17:05
SpeedEvil	It's a swipe down in their orientation.	17:05
javispedro	on my N950 since PR1.1 it seems to follow the _real_ orientation instead of the current window one	17:05
javispedro	so even on portrait only apps you have to swipe "sideways"	17:06
djszapi	aheinecke: just look at the kdeedu packages, and everything which is missing	17:06
djszapi	package*	17:06
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: seen sth like that as well here	17:06
DocScrutinizer	on N9	17:07
DocScrutinizer	was somewhat confusing and not exactly reproducable iirc	17:07
javispedro	it is fully reproduceable here	17:08
javispedro	with twitter app for ex.	17:08
javispedro	eer	17:08
javispedro	scrap that.	17:08
javispedro	with the clock app for ex, try to close it.	17:08
javispedro	you have to swipe from the "real" top edge instead of the current window's top edge. So if you hold the device in landscape, you have to swipe "sideways"	17:09
DocScrutinizer	N9 says "remaining standby time: 17 days"	17:10
DocScrutinizer	:-D	17:10
DocScrutinizer	AMOLED is nice, in some respects	17:10
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: yup	17:12
frals	yeah whats considered "top" was argued quite a bit...	17:12
frals	someone probably had reason for making it not "whever the the application layout says top is" but... yeah	17:13
Corsac	javispedro: hmhm, I seem to be able to boot sashz kernel (though I don't have CAP::dac_override)	17:13
djszapi	aheinecke: http://kde.garage.maemo.org/screenshots_kdeedu.html -> There must be kde edu packages somewhere.	17:14
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aheinecke	djszapi: found something http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Marble/MaemoPackaging	17:16
Corsac	javispedro: ok in fact, -b doesn't seem enough (or I'm just dumb)	17:18
djszapi	aheinecke: that is just marble.	17:18
javispedro	?	17:18
Corsac	javispedro: I flash my kernel, it boots, then stops to “charging” icon, then if I ask to boot, it's indeed my kernel	17:19
Corsac	(though, here, the device rebooted itself after some time :/)	17:19
deram	hardware watchdog? those reset the chip if software does not request not to in time	17:22
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gri	When I change the language on the N9 it reboots without asking for my PIN - is the "session" active as long as there's power is on the sim card?	17:24
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faenil	still no pr1.1 :(	17:25
gri	(ignore last "is")	17:25
faenil	o/ gri	17:25
gri	faenil: You got pr 1.1 on your n950 :)	17:25
faenil	)	17:25
faenil	but n950 is my dev device :P It's not starting atm, have a broken nemo image on it :P	17:25
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jabis	PR 1.1 - there nao where is the image -.-	17:29
DocScrutinizer	gri: I seem to have witnessed even ssh wifi logins to survive a "reboot" which was actually just a initstate switch to act_dead aka charging	17:29
DocScrutinizer	sth like that	17:29
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deram	pin query is done by sim-card, so if the sim thinks phone has been on all the time, there is no reason to ask it again	17:30
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DocScrutinizer	yoh	17:32
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npm	does this n9 update ( http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/11/nokia-n9-update-20-2011-40-4/ ) also run on n950?	17:36
javispedro	you willing to sacrifice a n950 to test? :D	17:37
npm	nope	17:37
Corsac	javispedro: btw, do you know if there's a way to rebuild kernel using direct cross compile?	17:38
npm	at some point i need to upgrade it, but i've been focusing on getting out http://code.google.com/p/voicetogoog/ in record time	17:38
npm	now i guess i have to respond to those that don't understand release early and release often and say "fredericobsantos on a Nokia N9 1 day ago Has potential but right now its too overly complex for something that should simplify your life." <-- dude, get an iphone :-)	17:40
javispedro	Corsac, sure, you are cross compiling when using scratchbox =)	17:40
Corsac	yeah, but scratchbox is a pain, and it's a bit slow because it uses cpu transparency through qemu	17:41
javispedro	that's not entirely true -- it's cross compiling	17:42
Corsac	so the gcc binaries are native ones, not armel ones?	17:42
qronic	guys, deleted repos, apt-get update, reset, and updates goes!!	17:42
javispedro	it's using qemu to run a few binaries that generate some source in the kernel	17:42
javispedro	Corsac, yes.	17:42
Corsac	ok, thanks :)	17:43
npm	i'm not sure steve jobs would have allowed siri to do this :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCNwRXQFcdw	17:44
javispedro	npm, I had quite a lot of fun trying to get sphinx to recognize a single word :)	17:45
gri	qronic: That's why my n9 has a 404 when doing apt-get update?	17:45
qronic	I deleted not all repos	17:45
gri	Packages is 404	17:45
gri	all others not	17:45
qronic	but only those that I've added: unofficial	17:45
qronic	so there just 2 files aegis**** oso.bin or whatever	17:46
qronic	left	17:46
npm	javispedro: that's why you shold try out voicetogoog.... whenever it misunderstands things it ends up being the most poetic combination of #trending babble , plus whatever google seems to be fishing off of porn sites....	17:47
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npm	although when you speak clearly and there's not a lot of background noise, it is very effective	17:47
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npm	but in a car, with the windows open, pure cyber poetry	17:48
faenil	gri: let me know if you get it to update ;)	17:49
javispedro	npm, btw, I write a Maliit input plugin to add dictation support to all harmattan apps using pocketsphinx	17:49
javispedro	npm, https://gitorious.org/javispedro-n950-misc/maesphinx	17:49
gri	qronic: http://pastebin.com/X2d2mXnM you did not do anything to these, right? :)	17:50
javispedro	npm, sphinx seems to be rather useless here but maybe google's service is more accurate and you might be interested	17:50
qronic	gri: btw, I've also activated flight-mode b4 running update and turned wi-fi on	17:50
javispedro	(I'm personally not happy with sending my voice to google though :P )	17:50
snowpong	looking into aegis stuff, is it so that manifest.aegis is auto-copied by Creator to myapp.aegis when doing a build, and therefore I should edit manifest.aegis and not into myapp.aegis directly? ....	17:50
qronic	fri: correct	17:50
qronic	gri: correct	17:50
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npm	javispedro: i will soon have sourcecode, it would be very interesting to to have an alternate "backend" for voicetogoog for when offline	17:50
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javispedro	npm, I'm thinking the opposite; using google as a backend for a maliit dictation plugin	17:51
npm	then just hit the "(re)transcribe selection(s)" menu command on the ones that sphinx didn't get	17:51
qronic	gri: I've actually checked my /etc/apt/sources.conf.d folder when deleted unofficial repos	17:52
npm	javispedro: well i'll publish source soon and then you can grab my QML/C++ for talking to google	17:52
gri	qronic: Well ok, I don't have any unofficial repos on the N9 - that's why I wonder it's getting 404	17:52
javispedro	npm, ah, nice	17:52
ieatlint	40-4 is definitely better, but can't get wifi hotspot app to work on n9 now :(	17:53
npm	i've been planning on repackaging it in some way so it can be made available with a "microphone button" on a webkit searchbar or the platform QML vkb	17:53
qronic	gri: if it don't work then I would suggest reboot/try tomorrow/try again, if you don't want to make hard reset	17:53
javispedro	npm, by a "maliit plugin" I mean that, an alternate vkb that you can swipe (as you can do with swype on pr1.1)	17:54
faenil	I hope they have not screwed kinetic scrolling in n9 pr1.1	17:54
faenil	as they have done with n950 pr 1.1	17:54
npm	and behind the scenes, it could still be writing the voicetogoog sqlite database entries for voice entries, so you could have a history of what voice input you didn, and what command it launched	17:54
npm	if anybody has suggestios on inplementing the "what command it launched" part....	17:55
npm	s/implementing	17:55
npm	s/suggestions	17:55
ieatlint	faenil: i've not noticed a broken kinetic scrolling on either 39-4 or 40-4.. how do you mean?	17:55
faenil	well it's handled differently...worse imho	17:55
faenil	and there is some bug	17:55
ieatlint	also, in my limited observations, i see no differences between 39-4 and 40-4, so if there's any difference at all, must be small bug fixes	17:55
faenil	when swiping through the homescreens	17:55
faenil	if you do it fast	17:56
faenil	the one in pr1.1 is less responsive, and gives more of a "fluid" effect...	17:56
javispedro	npm, either way, interesting app you have there :)	17:56
npm	^^ re "what command it launched' is there a way to find out what the current "document" URL, email message id, or folder etc you're looking at on harmattan?	17:56
faenil	it's a choice, a bad one imho...apart from that little bug	17:56
npm	javispedro: thanks... i could use some help... then again, i need to get the damn source out so that i can take someone up on their offer to port to symbian	17:57
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gri	faenil: The worst thing in 1.1 is: The twitter client's sectionscroller seems to slow down the whole ui when scrolling :)	17:58
npm	hm, interesting, javispedro ... i saw the "Meego IM Framework" and thought it was more for text messaging	17:59
npm	what makes a lot of sense is to use voice for inputting chinese.	17:59
faenil	gri: I still wonder why facebook and twitter clients lag so much ...	17:59
npm	the only problem -- someone please explain cuz i thought n9 available in china -- is china is the one country that voicetogoog has not been downloaded in	18:00
faenil	and phonebook too...	18:00
faenil	I mean, come on...:(	18:00
faenil	and another BIG question I'd like to ask is	18:00
npm	is nokia store available in china? or is google voice input blocked ? (i thought it wasn't)	18:00
faenil	Why does everything goes down to 10-5fps when the notification bar is open??	18:00
javispedro	because it starts compositing	18:01
javispedro	same as if you hit the volume buttons	18:01
faenil	exactly...	18:01
faenil	that REALLY sucks...	18:01
faenil	I don't think that's the only possible way to do that	18:01
faenil	I just don't believe that...	18:02
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gri	faenil: Saw the twitter client of a friend on htc sense today ... harmattan is much faster and he's jealous :P	18:02
javispedro	faenil, I don't have an iPhone or Android device to check, but I know the exact same thing happens on webOS for example.	18:03
faenil	gri: wow, guess who coded that twitter then :)	18:03
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qronic	updated, hooray!	18:03
faenil	javispedro: this is really disappointing...	18:03
javispedro	faenil, it also happens when you start swiping	18:03
faenil	what do you mean?	18:03
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javispedro	the moment the window is slightly offsetted when the swipe animation starts, compositor also turns on	18:04
javispedro	thus fps reduced	18:04
faenil	yeah, but that's not as noticeable	18:04
npm	the compositing issue doesn't seem to be happening in http://nielsmayer.com/meego/qml/qmltube_1.11.1_armel.deb	18:05
faenil	I mean, if you're doing something, and you receive an sms,... you understand it because everything starts lagging	18:05
javispedro	faenil, then you are seeing a different problem I guess.	18:05
npm	when diddling the volume control while playing video	18:05
faenil	...I haven't seen this on other platforms,notifications don't cause lags..	18:05
npm	lemme try w/ something more "framy"	18:05
javispedro	npm, it is not an "issue", it's just reduced framerate. Same thing happens on the N900.	18:05
faenil	javispedro: I think we're talking about the same thing :)	18:06
npm	oh is see it	18:06
npm	it seems most;ly to happen at startup as it gets rescaled	18:06
npm	and then if you leave it up it restabilizes	18:07
npm	(tests w/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtBbinpK5XI )	18:07
faenil	javispedro: if you scroll in phonebook and open notification bar, you see that the framerate is always reduced not only in the moment you open the bar	18:08
javispedro	well opening the notification area seems to use some lots of CPU early on	18:09
npm	oh yeah flickable is affected a lot worse than video	18:10
faenil	is the notification bar drawn by the raster engine?	18:10
javispedro	I guess that could be fixable, the rest probably not.	18:10
javispedro	either way, I guess you should be thankful scrolling is smooth at all.	18:10
gri	npm: "Video not available in your country. It violates GEMA's rights."	18:10
faenil	except it's not :D	18:10
npm	doh!	18:11
gri	germany sucks :/	18:11
npm	sorry for the tease. i guess they don't want you to see what it looks like in LA	18:11
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faenil	javispedro: why can't that be fixed?	18:12
npm	gri: http://consequenceofsound.net/2011/08/video-red-hot-chili-peppers-the-adventures-of-rain-dance-maggie/	18:13
faenil	I mean flickable elements are very smooth...it all depends and what you put in them,...	18:13
npm	gri: i assure you the US sucks more :-)	18:13
gri	npm: Ok, then youtube for germans suck because you're not allowed to watch music videos (not their fault)	18:14
npm	all music videos?	18:14
gri	not all, but many	18:14
gri	even if the artist wants to publish it :)	18:15
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gri	npm: http://www.tgdaily.com/business-and-law-features/41913-youtube-blocks-gema-music-videos-in-germany	18:16
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: how did you solve the context problem in your maliit plugin?	18:20
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jabis	f*ng updater fails all the time	18:22
DocScrutinizer	you'd want to use specific dictionaries depending on context aka "where's the focus? what apps are running in background?"	18:23
Venemo	hi guys	18:24
DocScrutinizer	hi Venemo	18:25
Venemo	hey DocScrutinizer, how're you?	18:25
DocScrutinizer	tired	18:25
Corsac	javispedro: uh, I think I might do something weird, did you experience at one point a "scripts/basic/fixdeps: No such file or directory" when building the kernel? (tried on a fresh scratchbox, apt-get source kernel / dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc)	18:26
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npm	gri... ok that does suck...	18:27
javispedro	faenil, because when compositing, there's an extra rasterization, so it will by definition be always slower than non-compositing	18:27
javispedro	DocScrutinizer, remember I only do dictation, so I use a generic dictation dictionary.	18:28
npm	re updating N950: http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=34666&postcount=3	18:28
faenil	that's ok...but so slower...like from 60 to 10...	18:28
javispedro	Corsac, no...	18:28
javispedro	faenil, in truth it's like half the framerate.	18:28
faenil	whaat :O	18:28
faenil	so it's usually scrolling at like 24fps?	18:28
faenil	that doesn't seem like it :O	18:28
npm	so what does the author of http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=34666&postcount=3 mean by "had to wipe the device clean" before succeeding	18:29
X-Fade	He used some windex and a cotton cloth?	18:29
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X-Fade	That must be it :)	18:29
* javispedro looks at his n950 and wishes he had windex and cotton around		18:30
npm	oh misunderstood.... the author talking about same problem on n9 as n950 update, not using n9 update on n950	18:30
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Corsac	javispedro: damn, how did I manage to do that ¬¬	18:30
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Venemo	npm, reflash?	18:31
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, yeah, I'm tired too	18:31
jabis	only thing OTA did before failing was turn of sshd - f*ing brilliant	18:31
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npm	javispedro: if you do a lot of dictation, i'd love to get some feedback on how voicetogoog works for you in spanish	18:32
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npm	Venemo: so if i'm going to reflash my n950 is http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/release/N950-39-5/ still the thing to use, or one of the n9 updates??	18:33
Venemo	npm, I'm not sure, but I do think that 39-5 is still the latest software for da N950	18:33
npm	k	18:33
berndhs	39-5 seems to break some things	18:34
Venemo	berndhs, for example?	18:34
javispedro	google talk!	18:34
berndhs	in my case, twitter and Ovi store	18:34
berndhs	breaking their own store is particularly alarming :)	18:35
jonni	usually its ssu update which breaks things and using flasher to flash works better.	18:35
Corsac	javispedro: ah, understood, the binary is native and it somehow doesn't find the transparency setting or so	18:35
DocScrutinizer	so you all updated your N9s to a FW rev that, when MALF or bootlooping, is impossible to "unbrick"? Or did somebody check if you could use the procedure and files as of http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4728 to flash this 40-4 to DFL61_HARMATTAN_10.2011.34-1 ? Or is there even a 40-4 image available meanwhile?	18:35
berndhs	I used the flasher from the download link in the topic	18:35
Corsac	DocScrutinizer: I didn't upgraded yet :)	18:36
DocScrutinizer	berndhs: on N9?	18:37
berndhs	950	18:37
DocScrutinizer	ooh, sorry	18:37
Venemo	berndhs, it didn't break anything for me.	18:37
berndhs	Venemo: that's nice	18:38
Venemo	but generally the old truth is still true, you're better off with reflashing than with OTA.	18:38
Venemo	berndhs, only thing that wasn't very good about my 39-5 OTA is that I needed to reinstall a bunch of packages to get the developer mode working properly.	18:38
DocScrutinizer	so where to get a 40-4 image?	18:38
Venemo	is there 40-4? for N950? :O wow	18:39
DocScrutinizer	no, for N9!	18:39
qronic	you can download all the packages that come in OTA update	18:39
Venemo	who cares about N9?	18:39
qronic	somebody zipped them	18:39
berndhs	Venemo: yes the re-enable of developer has to be done 1 package at a time, takes a while	18:39
Venemo	berndhs, well it worked for me to reinstall a couple of them at once. of course I needed a reboot.	18:39
jabis	I care about N9 goddamnit -.-	18:40
berndhs	I care about N9, about hunger in Africa, wars in the middle east,...	18:41
Venemo	well ok, I was just being jealous.	18:41
psycho_oreos	jealous when you have N950?	18:41
jabis	I care that the OTA failed and shat bricks on sshd	18:41
berndhs	yeah that's a negative thing	18:42
Corsac	javispedro: fwiw, having both sbox and qemu-user-static installed was the problem	18:42
jabis	now I'm having an interesting looping-issue with 3G & WLAN battling over who's to connect	18:42
qronic	how did they disabled root ssh account?	18:43
qronic	PermitRottLogin set to yes and still...	18:43
DocScrutinizer	allowed-users	18:44
faenil	have you tried with root@127.0.0.1?	18:44
DocScrutinizer	?	18:44
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qronic	root@127.0.0.1's password:	18:44
qronic	Permission denied, please try again.	18:44
djszapi	qronic: very easily.	18:45
qronic	AllowUsers @127.0.0.1 @10.0.0.0/8 @172.16.0.0/12 @192.168.0.0/16	18:45
qronic	which is ok	18:45
djszapi	qronic: root ssh makes zero sense	18:45
macmaN	geez people	18:45
qronic	I like it, I can do more things being root than user without devel-su	18:45
macmaN	why are you not making life easier for yourself, enable user@ ssh	18:45
macmaN	http://goo.gl/g44iJ	18:45
djszapi	qronic: no, you are not root	18:45
djszapi	you are developer ..	18:45
djszapi	do not mix up the bits.	18:46
qronic	ok, b4 PR1.1 id told me uid=0(root), that's it, now it can't be achieved ithout devel-su	18:46
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qronic	I guess they patched sshd code to deny root logins	18:46
djszapi	no, we did not.	18:47
qronic	ok, would you mind sharing how it's done?	18:47
jabis	I'm now no-one as I can't do jackshit - N9 pushes me to flight mode and WLAN showing 0 bars and 3G won't connect either \o/ whoo-fucking-ray	18:47
macmaN	my main gripe right now is how gps apps like foursquare cant get position when background connections are turned off	18:47
djszapi	it is actually very simple generic linux skill	18:47
qronic	emm, I have generic skills )	18:48
qronic	key auth would work?	18:48
macmaN	qronic: of course	18:48
macmaN	qronic: http://goo.gl/g44iJ	18:48
qronic	with root account?	18:48
frals	it adds disable root login flag in the start up script	18:48
frals	unless you have rdc, which you dont	18:48
macmaN	both with root and user	18:48
qronic	<macmaN>, thanks	18:48
jabis	I'm having Updating: 0% until fails and reboot is needed -.- \o/ resetting the phone, to see wtf is up	18:49
qronic	though, there's "user" user enabling howto	18:49
qronic	<frals>: could you point at that script?	18:50
djszapi	qronic: you cannot modify startup scripts anyway	18:51
qronic	that's ok, just curious	18:51
frals	qronic: i think aegis is enforcing some retarded policy so its gonna bite you in the ass if you mess with it	18:51
dragly	is there a way to copy/paste in the terminal on N9 or N950 yet?	18:51
frals	why is beyond me, but thats policy for you	18:51
DocScrutinizer	~may-i-edit	18:51
infobot	may-I-edit () { grep `basename $1` /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist && echo "probably not" && exit; echo "edit if you feel venturous"; }	18:51
djszapi	frals: aegis does not decide policies	18:52
snowpong	some example for postrm scripts for Harmattan?	18:52
djszapi	I do not seriously believe it you have been a platform developer for so long and do not know ...	18:52
djszapi	snowpong: what do you mean ? It is upstream debian	18:52
jabis	I did see that "your phone could be unusable even for emergency calls upon starting the update" but bricking my network connectivity alltogether when it fails is what makes this OTA a really crappy thing	18:52
frals	yes, someone is deciding retarded policy and aegis is enforcing it :)	18:52
qronic	btw, wMarkku Kylänpää wrote whole aegis kernel stuff, pretty neat code	18:53
djszapi	qronic: no, he did not	18:53
snowpong	djszapi: OK, I was guessting they might have some templates ready	18:53
djszapi	snowpong: debian maintainers guide	18:53
djszapi	qronic: I was also writing kernel stuff, and also other colleagues of mine	18:53
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frals	qronic: /etc/init/ssh.conf	18:53
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djszapi	Markku K. has nothing to do with the runtime policy fw for instance	18:53
qronic	<djszapi>, sorry than, just seen his credits in the code	18:53
qronic	<frals>: thank you, sir	18:54
frals	qronic: unfortunately its on aegis shitlist, so dont mess with it	18:54
djszapi	ssh.conf is not an aegis file ...	18:54
djszapi	that is an upstart job, oh my god seriously	18:54
djszapi	if a platform developer does not know what can we expect from externals ...	18:54
frals	grep ssh.conf /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist	18:55
frals	S 15 com.nokia.maemo H 40 268648a5c1d4eb2bf2ced2ed79780515da6e5bae A 0 0 33188 P 15 system-services R 17 etc/init/ssh.conf	18:55
frals	is what i meant with "its on aegis shitlist"	18:55
frals	going by the may-I-edit alias DocScrutinizer kindly provided	18:55
frals	is this not correct djszapi?	18:55
djszapi	I think I ignore you, I do not need this swearing	18:55
frals	lol	18:55
qronic	<djszapi>: could you please point when the SEAL bit is written into ..../validator/enabled? If that's your expertise area	18:56
frals	am i completely mistaken in what i said or is someone just having PMS?	18:56
djszapi	frals: it is not just about your technically incorrectness	18:58
djszapi	it is also about the fact we aegis developers do not like reading things like "shitlist"	18:58
djszapi	I doubt anybody would like. I thought a platform developer is a bit more mature than a child.	18:58
djszapi	you have this style internally too unfortunately.	18:59
DocScrutinizer	frals: yoh	19:00
DocScrutinizer	frals: is on aegis shitlist may look like is an aegis shitlist, when some myopia comes to the game	19:01
frals	djszapi: s/shit/hit/ then, makes you happy?	19:01
djszapi	my ignore makes, thanks.	19:02
Robot101	(speaking of acting like a child?)	19:02
frals	shit happens i guess	19:02
DocScrutinizer	LOL	19:03
DocScrutinizer	my ignore list makes this convo especially funny	19:03
* GeneralAntilles chuckles.		19:04
GeneralAntilles	djszapi, this is the wrong channel to shit on frals in. :P	19:04
jabis	what's with them lists x)	19:04
jabis	kk enabling the user with passwd -u user got me back my ssh - now to dig the OTA packages - I want to see what's borken - why ain't it updating	19:05
jabis	btw. resetting the phone and starting the OTA again didn't halp	19:06
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DocScrutinizer	jabis: the hashreflist is a list of files that you don't wanna touch unless you want to reflash due to MALF	19:07
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qronic	in PR1.1 for N9 when posting the picture in twitter, the message is broken for non-latin locales	19:07
jabis	DocScrutinizer: I'm not touching refhashlist - I want to _see_ which of the packages fail	19:09
DocScrutinizer	nobody talked about touching hashreflist	19:09
jabis	DocScrutinizer: Updating fails - and everything gets left like after a nuclear war ain't my perception of handy new tools for N9 x)	19:10
jabis	oh I misread - but why did you point me to hashreflist to begin with x)	19:10
DocScrutinizer	[2011-11-08 18:04:27] <jabis> what's with them lists x)	19:11
jabis	DocScrutinizer: I was referring to shit/hit/ignorelists - not about hashreflist ;)	19:11
DocScrutinizer	hashreflist = shitlist	19:12
DocScrutinizer	[2011-11-08 17:54:12] <frals> qronic: unfortunately its on aegis shitlist, so dont mess with it	19:12
jabis	for me a shitlist is something else :D	19:12
jabis	but nvm - can someone throw a link where I could dl the OTA packages	19:13
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gri	Was anyone able to update to 1.1.4 QtSDK? Mine always fails with downloading the harmattan documentation	19:17
berndhs	I can do ping but not ping6 from devel-su, why would that be ?	19:18
gri	Ignore that, I was trying the last 2 hours to update and when I write on irc, it works :P	19:18
npm	DocScrutinizer: does that 'hashreflist' included QML files of apps installed from nokia store?	19:22
djszapi	npm you can very easily check it	19:23
npm	i.e. if one modifies an app's qml in /opt//qml//*.qml will the device brick?	19:23
npm	where is that file? or how to checkl	19:23
djszapi	read above like 30 lines	19:23
npm	ok	19:23
npm	well the last person that spoke about qml above was me...	19:24
djszapi	http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/%23harmattan.2011-11-08.log.html#t2011-11-08T18:54:55	19:24
npm	oh the 'may-i-edit' thing?	19:25
faenil	gri: mine's still trying to download Harmattan Emulator...	19:25
djszapi	npm: seriously, it is a simple grep for that file ...	19:25
gri	faenil: qt for android (necessitas sdk) also does not install for me, like the n9 update :P	19:26
djszapi	npm: though, it is /etc/refhashlist	19:26
npm	so the only thing in the file is the binary "voicetogoog R 31 opt/voicetogoog/bin/voicetogoog"	19:26
djszapi	so frals was completely incorrect technically	19:27
faenil	gri: I have to get a working hello world app with qt on android by next monday :D	19:27
npm	correctness is overrated	19:27
djszapi	faenil: 2 minutes	19:28
djszapi	actually you can just download the example	19:28
faenil	djszapi: sure ;) I was told nothing worked in the session at devdays :D	19:28
djszapi	faenil: I have a qt application for Android. I should upload to androidmarket	19:28
faenil	:)	19:29
faenil	do you know if there's any problem with opengl?	19:29
djszapi	also, I am not sure which devdays that could be	19:29
gri	djszapi: Did you try the alpha 3 of necessitas which was released today?	19:29
faenil	I should port a mesh viewer as my thesis	19:29
gri	I'd be interested if it works for anyone else	19:29
djszapi	gri: I build it myself daily anyways :)	19:29
djszapi	from the kde repository	19:29
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gri	hmm that's the other way :)	19:29
djszapi	faenil: I think you misunderstood or talked to the wrong person. They were actually very impressive	19:30
djszapi	all the guys I talked to	19:30
faenil	gri was ther eI think :D	19:30
npm	so how much of qt-mobility is available in necessitas alpha 3?	19:30
djszapi	npm: please check out the presentation ...	19:30
faenil	anyway, do you know anything about my question? :)	19:30
djszapi	these things are really written there.	19:30
npm	where	19:31
djszapi	qt android presentation at dev days. Shall I make you the google part ?	19:31
npm	no	19:31
frals	cat /etc/refhashlist	19:31
frals	Aegis3.0	19:31
faenil	damn it qtsdk updater is not downloading anything, that's why it's stuck :( again :(	19:31
frals	is that just for me?	19:31
jabis	http://pastebin.com/uk1FbnVN here's what's happening on OTA if anyone want's to have a looksie	19:31
gri	faenil: mine worked now	19:32
faenil	gri: ;) do you know anything about opengl on qt android? is it completely ok?	19:32
gri	faenil: as of alpha 3 it should work out of the box	19:32
faenil	gri: ok thanks...	19:32
djszapi	npm: just for you ... http://cutehacks.com/2011/10/28/devdays2011/	19:33
djszapi	32/77	19:33
gri	faenil: http://groups.google.com/group/android-qt/browse_thread/thread/1d729d895b0379ed	19:33
jabis	on syslog that is - kernel throws up over wlan but is still apparently needing something from the network	19:33
faenil	gri: so I'm lucky :)	19:34
faenil	hope it works correctly :D	19:34
gri	faenil: You could try the installer	19:34
gri	if you're on linux	19:34
faenil	yeah	19:34
faenil	not atm...	19:34
faenil	and got to finish that damn uni project I have before starting with the thesis	19:35
faenil	the one I wanted to show you at dev days	19:35
faenil	still can't get out of the raypicking problem	19:35
gri	my uni projects consist of "bit shift rgb pixels" :D shame	19:35
djszapi	the only problem with my qt app on android and market, I need to pay 25 EUR	19:36
djszapi	if I am not mistaken.	19:36
djszapi	to be able to upload.	19:36
gri	djszapi: $25 != 25 €	19:36
faenil	:)	19:36
gri	:)	19:36
faenil	gri: I'm not supposed to implement raypicking by myselft, but that's what I'm doing...	19:37
faenil	is there anyone in here which knows about 3d graphics?	19:37
faenil	I really need help, need to sort this out...	19:37
djszapi	gri: yeah, I find it a bit amusing.	19:38
Arkenoi	avg idle consumption 290mA <- WTF?	19:38
djszapi	faenil: wrong channel, qt-3d	19:38
djszapi	or opengl	19:38
faenil	djszapi: yeah I know just wanted to know if there was anyone in here...anyway, I'm not using qt-3d	19:39
Corsac	Arkenoi: tracker maybe? :)	19:39
djszapi	faenil: they /do/ know 3d inside and out	19:39
faenil	djszapi: I know but since I know people here, I asked here before going there :P	19:40
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gri	faenil: Don't be so shy ;)	19:41
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faenil	gri: it's not about that...	19:44
faenil	problem is usually none answers...	19:44
faenil	I've already written there...let's see if anyone comes us up with time/ideas :)	19:44
faenil	while if you know someone he's more keen on helping :)	19:44
RST38h	<yawn>	19:45
snowpong	seems I got the postrm now working correctly, however now I can't uninstall from the UI, I've got to do it from within Manage Applications ...	19:45
djszapi	faenil: Sarah Smith answered to me in 2 hours	19:45
berndhs	39-5 doesn't set the DNS servers from the wifi settings	19:45
djszapi	snowpong: use the "user" category	19:45
djszapi	in your control file, and will work oob	19:45
djszapi	faenil: and Sarah is the leader of the 3d team	19:46
snowpong	djszapi: I am asking for user credentials in the aegis (as suggested by some internal OVI QA)	19:46
djszapi	snowpong: I am not referring to that	19:46
snowpong	djszapi: I get that, I will check my control now	19:46
djszapi	Section: utils -> that needs to be user	19:47
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djszapi	and even if it comes from unknown origin, package manager will be able to un-install it.	19:47
djszapi	snowpong: do you remember when I asked about kdelibs for android in Munich ? I am really about to start experimenting :)	19:48
djszapi	snowpong: also, we discussed this shared package containing also the dynamic qt so libraries. Do you have such a package by off-hand for a sample ?	19:49
snowpong	djszapi: yeah I remember the kdelibs question, didn't realize you were the same guy here	19:50
snowpong	djszapi: the .so files are part of necessitas if you just want to inspect their deps?	19:50
snowpong	djszapi: my controls says: "Section: user/other"	19:51
djszapi	snowpong: It would be nice to have an example for qt app devs who would like to submit their packages to android market since this dynamic shared library in the same package seems to be the way of proceeding. I might be mistaken, though.	19:52
snowpong	djszapi: ah, you mean an example of a complete package with the Qt .so's included - no, no such thing exists atm, not well documented and public at least	19:53
* snowpong haven't had time to try that yet, but others have when reading the list		19:54
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djszapi	faenil: back to your question, one guy has been working on the opengl support, and getting fine	19:57
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djszapi	faenil: pretty sad, you missed the opengl examples running on the galaxy device. It has been super impressive to me.	19:58
faenil	djszapi: yeah I was in another session..	19:58
snowpong	faenil: djszapi: http://cutehacks.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/image04.png picture of opengl es backend rendering on Galaxy S2	20:00
snowpong	it was Thomas S. who held the talk	20:00
jabis	where does OTA files get stored - I'm quite confident it's the download that failed	20:00
jabis	I'm seeing only 315kb downloaded by the phone	20:00
jabis	as it's supposed to be ~220 megs	20:01
djszapi	snowpong: yep, from Munich, Nokia	20:01
snowpong	djszapi: jupp	20:01
djszapi	we had a gluon sprint there with them before the qt dev days, cool guys :)	20:01
snowpong	and easy to spot ;)	20:02
djszapi	hehehe :)	20:02
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Venemo	snowpong, does that stuff run on Android?	20:12
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snowpong	Venemo: what stuff? that is a screenshot showing realtime HDMI output from an android device	20:16
snowpong	(the image)	20:16
Venemo	snowpong, yeah, I'm referring to the image	20:17
Venemo	snowpong, so Qt now runs on Android? that's nice :)	20:17
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snowpong	Venemo: that's ages ago, you can now even publish Qt apps in the Android Market - it still needs lots of polish, a promise of BIC etc. before it's really good	20:19
Arkenoi	damn	20:20
Arkenoi	my phone is doing "something"	20:20
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Arkenoi	not shown with top	20:20
Arkenoi	but draining battery and being sloooow	20:21
Arkenoi	likely to be some MfE glitch :-/	20:21
faenil	snowpong: thanks :)	20:24
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Venemo	snowpong, hmm, that is lovely	20:25
Venemo	snowpong, can that Android version of Qt display QML with sane performance?	20:25
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snowpong	Venemo: yeah, alpha2 uses raster backend so it's good on mid/high-end devices, I'm not sure if latest alpha3 uses opengl out-of-the-box so I haven't tried speed of that atm	20:27
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snowpong	Venemo: try out for yourself - http://twitter.com/#!/snowpong/status/133578670152495104	20:27
faenil	snowpong: it should...as of http://groups.google.com/group/android-qt/browse_thread/thread/1d729d895b0379ed?pli=1	20:27
snowpong	faenil: indeed, cool :D	20:28
faenil	:)	20:28
snowpong	faenil: will test soon, gotta update my talk for devdays SF :D	20:28
faenil	good luck! :)	20:28
Venemo	snowpong, I don't have an Android device, neither do I have the Android SDK :S	20:28
faenil	I'll start using android qt next week :)	20:28
faenil	same here XD	20:29
Venemo	but I intend to borrow a device for a week or two to port my app and release to the Android market :)	20:29
snowpong	Venemo: you can use the emulator, and the Necessitas/Qt SDK linked there includes _all_ software needed both AndroidSDK and QtSDK + Creator	20:29
Venemo	snowpong, so it integrates with Qt Creator too?	20:29
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snowpong	Venemo: yes, you basically get a new Target: Android when creating a new project	20:30
Arkenoi	now it is tracker-store again	20:30
Venemo	snowpong, that is fucking awesome :)	20:30
snowpong	Venemo: tell me about it! ;D	20:30
faenil	anyone with Norway product code who got n9 update?	20:30
Venemo	snowpong, Qt Creator integration means that I won't have to do any voodoo when developing for Android :)	20:31
snowpong	faenil: how do I know product code, I've upgraded but I might have gotten my phone through less normal connections	20:31
faenil	I got it at qt dev days	20:31
faenil	anyway, the product code is on the back of the simholder	20:31
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faenil	or, you can read it by scanning the barcode on Settings -> Info about product	20:31
faenil	(how gay is that?)	20:31
gri	faenil: The n9s from devdays had a german power plug, so they are all german version? :)	20:32
w00t	gri: germany uses the same plug as the rest of europe... :)	20:32
faenil	gri: mine has norway product code	20:32
gri	w00t: I was told Italy has different ones but ok	20:32
snowpong	Venemo: here is a step-by-step guide from zero-to-hero with Qt and Android - http://www.slideshare.net/snowpong/targeting-android-with-qt	20:32
snowpong	Venemo: it's a bit dated since alpha3 but still 80% valid	20:33
faenil	w00t: main italian plug is different, but we can use german ones too	20:33
w00t	faenil: i think you mean to direct that to gri	20:33
faenil	nope that was to you :) referring to what gri said :D	20:33
* Arkenoi killed -9 tracker-store and magically everything other worked, including mfe sync that hanged for hours (sic!)		20:34
snowpong	what is the easiest way to install an app on the n9 when you have the .deb file locally, can I do it with a one-liner? I don't want to deploy through Qt Creator as it installs and starts the app as "developer" not "user" I believe..	20:35
jonni	dpkg -i file.deb	20:36
SpeedEvil	dpkg -i foo?	20:36
snowpong	I mean locally on my linux box and I wanna install it (or upgrade) to my USB connected N9, I first gotta scp it?	20:36
Venemo	snowpong, thank you very much! saved to bookmarks, will return to it in a couple of weeks :)	20:36
* snowpong was hoping for a one-liner from pc --> n9		20:37
snowpong	Venemo: excellent, I'll update it once I know whats changed with alpha3	20:38
Arkenoi	hmm, in pre-beta2 there was twitter group in contacts. now it is no more and no twitter is associated to contact entries :-/	20:39
Mek	something like 'ssh root@phone dpkg -i /dev/stdin < file.deb' might work in theory?	20:40
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snowpong	Mek: I'll just do it in two steps instead I guess, but thanks	20:44
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RST38h	N950 has got a color LED!	20:49
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gri	white is a color?	20:51
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rcg	RST38h: ?	20:55
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Venemo	snowpong, I see in your slides that you work for Trolltech	21:02
MohammadAG	RST38h, ?	21:03
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djszapi	Hi! What happened with this page ? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/	21:04
djszapi	where is the public repository nowadays ?	21:04
X-Fade	djszapi: beta3	21:04
djszapi	what do you mean ?	21:05
X-Fade	beta3 got released.	21:05
X-Fade	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/	21:05
djszapi	thanks	21:06
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gri	faenil: did you upgrade the sdk yet?	21:18
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* Corsac updates		21:23
Corsac	uf, slow server	21:23
Corsac	or loaded server :)	21:23
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Corsac	Flash player is required to view release version and list of new features.	21:26
Corsac	frembl	21:26
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Corsac	can someone with flash comment on what's in http://europe.nokia.com/support/product-support/device-software-update?N9= ?	21:27
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villager	for me it says "there are no software updates for this device yet"	21:29
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Corsac	pfff, it's like 100kB/s	21:31
BluesLee	can someone tell me where to find the wifi mac address of my n9?	21:31
Venemo	BluesLee, Settings/About	21:32
BluesLee	thanx	21:33
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Corsac	what is the difference between “sync and connect” and “SDK” usb modes?	21:36
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djszapi	Corsac: SDK is SDK	21:40
djszapi	you have the SDK connection tool, developer and everything	21:40
Corsac	well, in sync & connect too, it seems	21:40
Corsac	well, at least you have the usb0 interface available, with dhcp listening etc.	21:41
djszapi	true, that was my impression. This is really weird.	21:42
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djszapi	maybe tracker is not that silly in SDK mode, I do not know ..	21:43
Corsac	tracker?	21:43
djszapi	yes	21:43
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Corsac	what does it do in sync & connect?	21:48
djszapi	well, months ago, all kind of troubles.	21:48
djszapi	have not really tried recently, but indexing was screwed up back then	21:48
djszapi	but this is a silly speculation after all. Need to ask someone authorized.	21:51
Corsac	could you ask people authorized to look at bug reports too? :)	21:52
djszapi	well, I did send a mail to my colleague about it few minutes ago.	21:53
djszapi	sorry, but what bug. Could you please clarify this post ?	21:53
Corsac	well, every bug, in fact	21:54
Corsac	afaict there's no bug in ASSI state since august	21:54
djszapi	not gotcha ..	21:55
RST38h	MohammadAG: On the back of the phone, coupled with the flash, is the bright red LED	21:55
RST38h	MohammadAG: Which may contain other color LEDs.	21:55
RST38h	MohammadAG: The question is, how to control it?	21:56
SpeedEvil	video4linux	21:56
SpeedEvil	I assume	21:56
Corsac	djszapi: “not gotcha”?	21:57
SpeedEvil	It's how the n900 worked, and the flashlight app on n950 blocks the camera in the same expected way	21:57
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djszapi	Corsac: not getting you ..	21:57
Corsac	djszapi: http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/buglist.cgi?product=MeeGo%201.2%20Harmattan&component=Device&resolution=---	21:57
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RST38h	Speed; Notice that the red led and the flash led are two different animals, even while they are in the same physical unit	21:58
djszapi	I need to log in and so on. I will not do that for now, sorry	21:58
Corsac	the first bug in ASSI state is #364 opened on aug 15, last news from Nokia on aug 18	21:58
djszapi	no clue what ASSI state means.	21:59
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Corsac	djszapi: and from looking a few bugs here and there, there no comment from Nokia on any bug more recent	21:59
djszapi	normal.	21:59
djszapi	you were very lucky to get one before that	21:59
berndhs	why do we report bugs if there is no feedback on them ? this isn't a Nokia-specific issue, it is very common	22:01
djszapi	very simple answer, no resource ?	22:01
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djszapi	as if nobody knew, what happened on the 11th of February...	22:02
berndhs	I don't believe that in the general case	22:02
djszapi	I do not care about general case	22:02
berndhs	if bugs remain "NEW" for several months, the natural assumption is that the report is ignored	22:02
djszapi	of course, so ... ?	22:03
berndhs	consequently the reporter will not bother to report further bugs	22:03
djszapi	yes, so ... ?	22:03
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djszapi	I do not understand what you try to get out of this	22:03
berndhs	and the reputation of the company suffers, as they are seen to not care about the quality of their products	22:03
djszapi	very childish consequence	22:03
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djszapi	would be all kind of worse reputation to not deal with the blocker bugs	22:04
Corsac	djszapi: do we piss people off by reporting bugs?	22:04
Corsac	or are they just ignored	22:04
djszapi	Corsac: no, we do not even read those	22:04
djszapi	most of the people including me	22:04
djszapi	how would you read any of those when you have 550000 other tasks that your boss tells you to do ?	22:05
djszapi	please be gentle, we do not do it on wish for having you guys suffer ..	22:05
decibyte	am i a complete moron if i want to install git and/or mercurial on my n9? and if not, how do i do?	22:05
djszapi	decibyte: use the community repository ?	22:06
jonni	mostly the problem is that internal bugzilla on different and we mostly follow that one, havent even heard about developer bugzilla before reading today in irc.	22:06
decibyte	djszapi: yes please. where do i find it? well... i'll google a bit before asking more stupid questions.	22:07
djszapi	jonni: you have not heard about the public ? LOL	22:07
Corsac	djszapi: it might be wise to advise people not to report bug if they intend to have an answer (reporting is ok for other people to read, though)	22:07
djszapi	decibyte: landing page, read please.	22:07
Corsac	except that the bug tracker is not public	22:07
jonni	I even think that there is some monkey that copies the public bugs to internal one :)	22:07
djszapi	Corsac: reporting can help other community people	22:07
djszapi	if community answers ...	22:07
Corsac	yes	22:07
Corsac	but then dev.nokia.com is not the correct place imho	22:08
djszapi	jonni: have not heard of any	22:08
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Corsac	and reporting about security issues or stuff inside closed apps won't really do anything	22:08
Corsac	well, the community can comment on workaround, but that's all	22:08
djszapi	decibyte: http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/rzr:/harmattan/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard/armel/git_1.6.5.7-0maemo0%7erzr2_armel.deb	22:08
djszapi	http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/rzr:/harmattan/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard/armel/git-core_1.6.5.7-0maemo0%7erzr4_armel.deb	22:08
djszapi	or just: echo 'deb http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/rzr:/harmattan/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard/ ./' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/nicks.list	22:09
djszapi	and then apt-get install git/git-core :)	22:09
djszapi	so simple..	22:09
decibyte	djszapi: thanks a lot :)	22:09
djszapi	Corsac: seriously, ask yourself, what is your point ?	22:09
Corsac	my point is to have issues fixed	22:10
djszapi	we have been doing, so be happy	22:10
djszapi	and patient	22:10
Corsac	I try not to report useless stuff, I try to provide information etc.	22:10
Corsac	I think my bug reports are valuable, at some point	22:10
Corsac	and I think reading them might not be a waste of time	22:11
Corsac	and I'm quite sure the other bugs are in the same situation	22:11
Corsac	that's all :)	22:11
djszapi	yes, so ... ?	22:11
djszapi	I am still not getting the point.	22:12
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Corsac	ok, I give up	22:13
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Arkenoi	incredible, but seems that it is well-reproducible: killing tracker-store process reliably unfreezes stalled MfE sync :-/	22:58
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tomma	is there any accounts plugin which support msn protocol?	23:02
tomma	or has anyone package for skype which is in n9?	23:02
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rzr	tomma: you can join msn network using xmpp	23:18
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rzr	tomma: http://rzr.online.fr/q/xmpp I can document more	23:18
rzr	hi Corsac , booting debian yet ?	23:19
rzr	djszapi: hi too , I have a working desktop now	23:19
rzr	laptop actually	23:19
djszapi	rzr: nice :)	23:20
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rzr	just did upgrade	23:20
rzr	and installed a couple of apps	23:20
rzr	git 1st	23:20
* rzr 's laptop : http://rzr.online.fr/q/oem# #LenovO ChinA sells OeM !MeeGo !GnU !LinuX #LapTop G470 but mine was w/ “CrimoSoft Win7 Shut up and PaY” edition		23:21
henkie	Hi, i am looking to buy a N9, but I am not sure yet. Is it possible to develop applications (pref. python/qt) for it, or do I need a n950 for this?	23:28
djszapi	rzr willing to package for us again ?	23:29
SpeedEvil	N9 is quite suited to development.	23:29
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SpeedEvil	n950 was simply a sort-of-similar device that was available in small numbers before retail n9s were available.	23:29
SpeedEvil	It's no better to develop with - other than having a keyboard - which isn't actually a benefit.	23:30
henkie	SpeedEvil, tnx	23:30
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henkie	I guess that only leaves a functional openvpn-client before I can/will buy one :)	23:32
Chaz6	I like the keyboard on the n950 better than the n900	23:33
Chaz6	I find the n900's keys a bit small	23:33
henkie	had to replace my n900 keyboard, most of the markings were gone	23:34
henkie	N9 just got available for me in holland, but it's a lot of money, so I need to be sure it can replace my n900	23:35
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Corsac	javispedro: fwiw, kernel version didn't change after pr1.1 upgrade	23:40
javispedro	..	23:41
javispedro	more details..	23:41
SpeedEvil	I like the keyboard on the n900 much better	23:41
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SpeedEvil	The shape of the keys gives a much better feel of where I am.	23:42
SpeedEvil	I can hit 30wpm on it.	23:42
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Corsac	javispedro: http://paste.debian.net/143967/	23:45
Corsac	so LOCALVERSION didn't change	23:46
Corsac	(while the package version did)	23:46
jabis	fuck - camera borken with PR 1.1	23:50
Corsac	indeed	23:50
javispedro	Corsac: what do you mean by "package version changed", what is the new one?	23:51
Corsac	http://paste.debian.net/143968/	23:52
jabis	also frontside camera borkd	23:52
Corsac	I should have backuped dpkg -l before upgrading	23:52
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javispedro	this doesn't make much sense	23:53
javispedro	what does uname -v say	23:53
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javispedro	s/-v/-r/	23:53
infobot	javispedro meant: what does uname -r say	23:53
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javispedro	your update is probably borked or waiting for another reboot.	23:54
Corsac	uname says 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112910	23:55
Corsac	I already shutdown once, but it doesn't cost much to do it once more :)	23:55
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jabis	mine states exactly the same	23:56
Corsac	maybe the kernel wasn't flashed correctly?	23:56
jabis	About product Version: PR1.1 (10.2011.34-1_PR_001)	23:57
Corsac	ha, but that's PR1.0	23:57
* Corsac is confused		23:57
jabis	the PR1.1 and () are extra from before update	23:58
Corsac	yeah, same here, PR1.1 but 10.2011.34-1_PR_001	23:58

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