IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2011-10-27

MohammadAGSwipe, show yourself | Kinetic, Wiggle yourself00:00
faenilgri: that's true, but you don't break the display, you break the phone :P00:00
faenilMohammadAG: lol00:01
DanielWabout my calendar access with qtmobility: i am getting this to the output: "sqlitestorage.cpp: 268 - database "/home/developer/.calendar/db" opened" .  so it does somehow open it?00:01
griDanielW: output QOrganizerManager::availableManagers () to your console00:03
gribecause you should initialize QOrganizerManager with "tracker" instead of ""00:03
DanielWok, i see the problem00:03
DanielWwhen i start it as developer (from qtcreator) or in the ssh console it starts as user "developer"00:04
grithat might also be a problem00:04
DanielWand that doesn't have any entires00:04
MohammadAGoh no no no00:04
MohammadAGbend yourself00:04
MohammadAGnow that's marketing00:05
griDanielW: You have to use the user account otherwise other things like using accounts also does not work00:05
faenilMohammadAG: bend yourself! ahahaha00:05
DanielWis there a way to do this from qtcreator or the ssh konsole?00:05
griDanielW: most simple way would be: ssh onto the device as developer, become root with devel-su and "rootme" as password, call "passwd user" and set a password, allow user login in /etc/passwd, deploy ssh key to user account using qtcreator - but that's not simple if you have no clue of those parts00:07
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grior I am completely wrong and there is a simple way :)00:07
mgedminhm, so are you saying that if I run an app using Qt Creator's Run (which uses the 'developer' account), my app won't get access to certain stuff?00:08
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grimgedmin: It gets access but it creates its own files00:08
mgedminhm... maybe it makes some kind of sense -- I won't accidentally wipe my real calendar, say...00:08
DanielWdoesn't sound too complicated. i am using linux for something like 10+ years00:08
grimgedmin: So you can't see users's accounts as developer00:08
griyou may have login dialogs popping up00:09
faenilgri: does that mean he has to change "user" psw if he wants to deply to app to ovi store?00:10
grifaenil: no00:11
faenilI mean, first time the user will start the software it will change password or what?00:11
faenilok, so it asks for login00:11
faeniland that's it00:11
grifaenil: if you deploy your application using qtcreator and start it, it will run from developer user00:11
faenilwhich would sound weird to people :D00:11
faenilgri: yes I got that00:11
griif you start it from your .desktop file in the menu, it will run as "user"00:11
griif you save th $HOME/some.db this may be two files then00:11
griuser and developer share the same MyDocs dir but the rest is not the same as far as I remember00:12
faenilyeah I got what you mean00:12
faenilbut who knows its "user" password? people who bought N9 I mean00:14
griyou don't have to know it00:14
DanielWyou don't have to know it00:14
griroot user can change the password for everyone00:14
gri"passwd username" sets the password for a given user00:14
DanielWand thanks now my calendar access is working00:14
faenilI know  -.-00:14
faenilwhat I am saying is00:14
faenillet's suppose he put this app on the store00:14
DanielWbut not sure if it has anything to do with aegis00:14
faeniland some n9 user downloads it00:14
faenilwhat will it do about this login thing?00:14
mgedminfaenil, NOTHING AT ALL00:14
grifaenil: the login thing I mentioned was something different00:14
faenilhow does it get access then?00:14
mgedminapps, launched from the app launcher, run under the 'user' account00:15
faenilok so they do that by default00:15
mgedminapps launched from the Qt Creator using the SDK Connectivity Tool run under the 'developer' account00:15
faenilthe problem was only that Daniel was running it from creator00:15
faenilyeah okay00:15
mgedminthese two accounts have separate calendars etc. -- stuff in /home/user versus /home/developer00:15
faenilof course00:15
faenilsure sure00:16
faenilthat was all known00:16
faenilI just was not thinking about the fact that once you start it you're already logged00:16
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DanielWweird there are two calendars in my nokia n9 with chinese names.  they seem to contain chinese holidays ...00:20
faeniljavispedro: do you know anything about Nemo on N950?00:20
faenillike what's the current status of the fw image? is there anything I can test?00:20
faeniland play with?00:21
* Arkenoi asked local nokia guys, they told me they have no hw flasher for n950, just the same usb procedure00:21
faenilnot officially00:21
javispedrothere is CE 1.300:21
Arkenoiwonder if charging the battery separately will help00:22
Arkenoidoubt it00:22
faeniljavispedro: CE 1.3 is not NEMO00:23
faeniland it's not usable :)00:23
javispedrohow not?00:23
faenilhave you tried it on the n950?00:23
javispedroit's not like it will be utterly different considering the few time that has past00:23
faenilI know, I don't care about that ;) it's just that the core has changed anyway, so...00:23
faenilhave you tried it ?00:24
faenilon n95000:24
Arkenoidoes anyone here have any "unbricking" success story when generic ocf did not work and any other tricks do?00:24
faenilokay, then I'll tell you some known things :)00:24
faenil1) battery level not working00:24
faenil2) camera not working00:24
faenil3) can't receive SMS (I could not)00:24
mgedminwhen ocf failed I shipped my n950 back to nokia, and nokia gave me another one00:24
faenil4) Can't sent sms by contact00:24
javispedrofaenil: I don't know why you are telling this to me00:25
mgedmin(the other way around actually: they shipped me a new one, and a prepaid dhl envelope to return the broken one000:25
faeniljavispedro: just chatting :) thought you were into that given you are a hacky guy00:25
faeniland just asked if you had news about Nemo on n950 :)00:25
faeniland because I think that's where we should spend our time on :D00:26
Arkenoimgedmin: this takes some time. probably a lot of it, if they have a spare one at all00:26
mgedmina few days, yes00:26
* DocScrutinizer hands javispedro a sol y sombra00:26
Arkenoimgedmin: and exactly how it failed?00:26
mgedminemmc chip failed, or something00:27
faenilDoc : lol00:27
mgedmindisk read errors, remount ro, etc.; then flashing failed in the middle of rootfs00:27
faenildon't you think Nemo is the way to go? :D00:27
mgedminafter which it wouldn't boot at all00:27
DocScrutinizerfaenil: I think javispedro will pick what he thinks is his way to go00:28
faenilgri: I haven't eaten yet...we've eaten so much during these three days that I'm never hungry, lol00:28
faenilDoc: I was actually talking to you :D00:29
faenilDoc: and ofc, everyone will make his choice..we're just chatting here :) don't take it personal :D00:29
grifaenil: I ate a lot when I came home :D00:29
* SpeedEvil may have overprepared for GoF2 end. 150 nukes, maxed-out everything. custom shield and cloak.00:30
SpeedEvilWay too easy. (on hard mode)00:30
ArkenoiSpeedEvil: flying mantis? which weapons?00:31
SpeedEvilthree maxheat o20. They do lots of damage when locked, but I hate that they're almost useless when not.00:32
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: probably time to have some fun on the dark side then00:32
SpeedEvilOn balance, I prefer the slightly weaker ship with a turret.00:32
ArkenoiSpeedEvil: i hate that target lock is likely to stick to wrong ship00:33
DocScrutinizerpirate the pirates, kill the cops... ;-P00:33
SpeedEvilThat's why those suck.00:33
grifaenil: good night, have to stand up early for university :(00:33
javispedrobah, I only have 30minutes so far in GoF00:33
SpeedEvilThe rest of the projectiles go where you aim them.00:33
faenilSpeedEvil: there was the head of GoF company here at DevDays, and he showed a bit of game00:33
javispedroso there's a difficulty setting?00:33
faeniland he launched something which exploded to the whole screen xD00:33
SpeedEviljavispedro: I'm not sure what it _does_00:33
* javispedro missed it00:33
faenilgri: cya :D00:33
SpeedEvilfaenil: 'start new game' -> easy/...00:34
DocScrutinizerin the old days it was mainly dampening which isn't exactly what you usually see in outer space00:34
* Arkenoi had one maxheat, a custom laser, a weapon with fasted fire rate and something i do not remember.. well, anyways, everything is lost as i had no backup for things "not important enough" as usual :-/00:34
faeniloh ok so that was the beginning00:34
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faenilI thought it was some spoiler or something lol00:34
faenilI have never played it :)00:34
faenilhe didn't start the official app00:35
faenilso I thought that was something new00:35
DocScrutinizerbut of course a good steering computer would dampen any movement automatically00:35
faenilthe app had no icon :)00:35
SpeedEvilSomething fast firing, with good range is best IMO, even if not best damage rate00:35
SpeedEvilAh - extreme mode looks more interesting.00:36
Arkenoiwill there be valkyrie addon?00:37
* Arkenoi played for two months or so00:37
faenilso is this game really worth playing :)00:38
Arkenoiit is much like Elite00:38
SpeedEvilIt's limited.00:38
javispedroSpeedEvil: pfft you are right, can't believe I missed it the first time, probably I was bored of the introduction and in "hit next, next, next, next" mode00:38
ArkenoiElite's universe is much bigger though and there are more things to do00:39
SpeedEvilIt needs various things, and the interface screw is high.00:39
SpeedEvilIt needs a random universe, probably prices which vary as you sell stuff, and some way of seeing what _all_ the prices you have seen for an item are, not just the high/low.00:40
DocScrutinizerI want back my ELITE00:40
SpeedEvilAlso - the drill noise is broken and doesn't always stop.00:40
faenilwhat's elite? another game?00:40
SpeedEvilElite is what this is a clone of.00:40
DocScrutinizerbell and braben, elite00:40
SpeedEvilElite was less shiny, but probably with better gameplay.00:40
SpeedEvilFor example - the 'radar' in this version gives you _no_ feedback, so you can't slow for targets outside range.00:41
faeniloh ok00:41
DocScrutinizeractually I hate the "shiny" remote-control view of the ship00:41
SpeedEvilThat too.00:41
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DocScrutinizerand the radar is useless00:42
DocScrutinizerat least compared to ELITE's00:42
SpeedEvilIf you skip the cutscenes, you'll get confused.00:42
DocScrutinizerthe fights seem more like WW-I aircraft dogfights to me00:43
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ArkenoiOolite is great00:44
Arkenoibut i am afraid porting is too much effort00:44
SpeedEvilAh - extreme mode is _easier_ - the guns work as you'd expect.00:45
faenilthx doc00:45
mgedminhm? do guns work in surprising ways in easy mode? I hadn't noticed00:46
SpeedEvilmgedmin: they sometimes auto-target, making 'leading' not work as expected.00:47
mgedminhm, I haven't noticed00:48
faeniltime to leave guys00:48
faenilit's midnight and I have not eaten yet00:48
mgedminno food = no fun!00:48
faenilbye bye00:48
faenilyup, thing is, at Qt Dev Days there was food every hour00:49
faenilso I've eaten a lot there... xD00:49
faenilbye bye :)00:49
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DocScrutinizer>>The sequels employed a realistic flight model based on Newtonian mechanics rather than the original arcade-style engine. While this was more realistic, many players also found it frustratingly difficult, particularly in combat<< :-D00:50
ieatlint"more realistic" ... yes.  i demand my inter-galactic space fighting games be as close to real life as possible00:51
* DocScrutinizer ponders to nuke his GSM carrier O2, for not allowing to book another month of data plan since 36h00:52
javispedroieatlint: May I suggest Orbiter here.00:53
javispedrodespite it being propietary win32only software00:53
javispedrorather nice and very interesting time waster imho.00:53
javispedroman, I SO want my VGA card back.,00:54
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DocScrutinizerorbiter, a friend of mine is wasting weeks on it :-D00:56
javispedroready to start crushing the dreams and hopes of all those people that will buy an n9 thinking they can install wp7 on it?00:58
javispedro"but but but they are the same specs!"00:58
DocScrutinizerieatlint: though I agree there's no way to implement realistic intergalactic hyperjumps in a game, I still don't want my spececraft to behave like a worldwar-1 biplane with a getling gun00:59
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: SoC? haha00:59
javispedro(reading the engadget comments and already finding some saying "the lumia is nice but I'll buy a N9 because it has 64GiB and the community will install WP7 to it"00:59
DocScrutinizerWTF?! LOL01:00
DocScrutinizersure, the wp7 FOSS community will do that in no time X-P01:00
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ieatlinthey, i've already got wp7 installed on my n901:02
ieatlintwell, close enough, i set a blue screen01:02
javispedroyou need to set it on fire01:02
DocScrutinizerwell MALF is a legit analog to BSOD01:03
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GeneralAntillesI want more simulation-style space fighter games.01:07
GeneralAntillesLike Freespace.01:07
javispedroI want X-Plane :(01:07
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GeneralAntillesI need to setup my HOTAS rig again.01:09
GeneralAntillesX-Plane is fuuuun01:09
GeneralAntillesHelicopters are the best.01:09
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tsdgeos_is it possible to use meego components 1.1 in the n9[50] ?01:21
DanielWis anyone trying to port pidgin or libpurple to the n9?01:21
DocScrutinizertsdgeos_: please elaborate01:21
tsdgeos_DocScrutinizer: well, as far as i can see the phone only ships meego components 1.001:22
tsdgeos_i want to use 1.1 since TextField in 1.0 is missing the onAccepted signal01:22
tsdgeos_is that elaborated enough?01:23
M4rtinKGeneralAntilles: Frontier might work in dosbox :)01:23
DocScrutinizerwell, probably I'm not the right one to answer as I've no clue what's meego components01:23
tsdgeos_import in QML01:23
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tsdgeos_seems one has to wait for the next image01:24
DocScrutinizerM4rtinK: tried it, never got it to really work, and that'S been on a win98 P-II-300 and it's not been to *slow*01:25
DocScrutinizertoo *slow*01:25
M4rtinKI think I remember playing it just fine on Win 98 or XP01:26
M4rtinKon my Pentium 150 MHz :)01:26
DocScrutinizeryep, P-II-300 is too fast01:28
M4rtinKoh, so another game using the CPU as its clock ?01:28
M4rtinKwell, that could get problematic01:29
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javispedroI'm pondering if I should make a pseudoformal GPL request for the PR1.1's kernel01:32
DocScrutinizererr, istn't the kernel source puslished meanwhile?01:34
javispedroif you know where, please tell...01:34
DocScrutinizerdang, I referred to *something* several days ago01:34
DocScrutinizerdunno if that'S exactly what you were looking for01:35
javispedroon this channel?01:35
tsdgeos_javispedro: pr1.1 has not yet been released, as it?01:36
javispedroit has, for n950.01:36
tsdgeos_i have a n950, what is pr1.1, <- this?01:37
javispedroit's fun that we finally have the "beta channel" for firmware updates that we have been requesting for years01:37
javispedrotsdgeos_: yes.01:37
tsdgeos_because it means it does not contain qml meego components 1.101:38
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: nm, was probably the 1.0 kernel source01:38
tsdgeos_i was hoping pr1.1 would include it01:39
javispedrowho's "meego components"01:39
DocScrutinizerI asked same01:40
DocScrutinizerseems sth related to QML01:40
javispedroI can guess that =)01:40
tsdgeos_these ones01:41
javispedroso, nokia's.01:41
javispedrothose are included for sure, 1.101:41
* tsdgeos_ starts the terminal01:41
FryeAny of you have pointers to documentation about showing application specific information in the notification screen?01:42
Fryeon N901:42
FryeI have tried to look, but I'm all new to this so most likely from wrong places01:42
FryeI mean the N9 UX checklist even does not have anything about the notification stuff01:42
javispedroFrye: it's called "Events view", might help you to search01:42
tsdgeos_javispedro: you're right01:43
tsdgeos_they are there01:43
tsdgeos_now the big question is can i check for them?01:43
tsdgeos_because they being there doesn't really help much :D01:44
javispedro"check for them"?01:45
tsdgeos_let's say someone tries to run my app on a n9 that does not have pr1.101:45
tsdgeos_so no qml meego components 1.1 is there01:46
DocScrutinizerthe app won't install, missing dependencies01:46
javispedrotsdgeos_: depend on qt-components (>= 1.1)01:47
tsdgeos_let's assume i want to put my app on the ovi store...01:47
javispedrothen you should ask the ovi store01:47
javispedroI wonder how they will handle different PR releases this time.01:48
DocScrutinizerthey'll assume there's no such thing like different PRs, as you basicaly can't reject a SSU01:48
DocScrutinizerOTA update01:49
DocScrutinizerupgrade to PR1.101:49
tsdgeos_but are they going to OTA everyone in the world at the same time?01:49
DocScrutinizererr, basically yes01:50
javispedroin N900 times, iirc, there were different builds for each app in the store for each PR.01:50
DocScrutinizerintoduced really late01:50
javispedroI do not think they are going to do the same (as I can get apps from the Store on 1.1 N950 just fine)01:50
javispedrothey'll have a plan I guess.01:51
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DocScrutinizeroptimist ;-P01:51
DocScrutinizerI'm more than amazed OVI works at all01:52
DocScrutinizerooh and scratch my cmment about fremantle-1.3, this applied to maemo repo, not to OVI01:53
merlin1991at least on extras fremantle-1.3 was a symlink to fremantle-1.201:54
tsdgeos_i've updated stuff for the n900 for the ovi store01:55
merlin1991ah wait it was 1.2 -> fremantle01:55
tsdgeos_they basically say you can assume 1.3 is there01:55
DocScrutinizermaybe because PR1.3 was "compatible" ?01:55
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DocScrutinizermerlin1991: yup, that's mor elike it01:56
DocScrutinizertsdgeos_: toldya. They'll also assume the most recent PR on N9 is installed, and not bother to keep any compatibility for older PR versions01:58
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FryePerfect now I have something to read \o/01:58
FryeThanks javispedro01:59
DocScrutinizerthough they could. OVI should be able to transparently detect the PR version of your device, from a browser ID or whatever, and dynamically offer the matching packages only01:59
FryeThis is sad, I would need to do an app for iPhone at work, but all I'm interested is my N9 and programming for it on my freetiem ;-)01:59
FryeAnd I would get paid for doing the iphone stuff01:59
FryeAnyway time to set teh N9 next to my bed. Enjoy.02:00
DocScrutinizer(I feel with you)02:00
* javispedro now has to code some crap in Java02:02
* T_UNIX has to continue to lern Scala, while he hates Java02:03
DocScrutinizerwell, at least you know it might survive for a few months - way longer than anything on meego did until now02:03
javispedrothis reminds me that wp7 is also doomed02:03
javispedroas ms wants to eventually replace it with full Win32onARM02:04
DocScrutinizererr, sure. ;-D why?02:04
javispedroyet noone mentions that..02:04
DocScrutinizerare you ging haloween spooky now?02:05
ieatlintwp7 may be replced with win8, but i think you can count on silverlight and xna staying around02:05
javispedroit is not happening before the next version, though.02:05
javispedroieatlint: you could say the same about qt and look how happy devs are.02:05
ieatlintyeah, but nokia has never shown loyalty to its developers02:05
DocScrutinizeraaaah, M$ has02:06
javispedrosurely ( )02:06
ieatlintwhereas microsoft has maintained backwards compatibility so much that i can still run some dos stuff on win702:06
javispedronot on any 64 bit version of win7.02:06
ieatlintfine, then as of vista02:06
javispedronot on any 64 bit version of vista either ;P02:06
ieatlintthat's still 20 years of backwards compability02:07
ieatlintyou sure? thought there was still the emu in place02:07
special64bit windows can't run 16-bit applications02:07
ieatlintbut the sentiment is still pretty clear, i'll bump up my example to win95 programs if you insist02:07
javispedrothey have removed it on 64 bit versions because they decided it was "about time"02:07
DocScrutinizerumm yeah, until "recently" (aka some 18..24 months back) Nokia also was great in maintaining a certain backwards compatibility02:07
ieatlintthe point is that they have a history of maintaining backwards compatibility, and largely they are known for keeping their developers happy02:08
javispedroa reputation I think it's ill-deserved02:08
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ieatlintregardless, i'll bet on history and practicality before i believe the unsubstantiated rumour of abandoning silverlight02:09
javispedros/it's/is :P02:09
DocScrutinizerI bet on my stomach feeling instant nausea on mentioning of "silverlight" now and in 5 years, so perfect backward compatibility02:10
ieatlintsoon the days of running native code on mobile devices will pass02:11
ieatlintall that's left, with exceptions, is apple and qt02:11
javispedroqt not much longer02:11
DocScrutinizeryeah, soon all embedded devices will just run java apps, errr....02:11
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ieatlinteh, symbian will be around a bit02:12
ieatlintmeltemi maybe02:12
specialQt and Cocoa are both proof that you can have compelling modern frameworks with native code, though.02:12
javispedroin fact, with the very exception of Qt and QML, I think the trend was going back to native again02:12
ieatlintblame android?02:13
javispedroGoogle for some reason calls rewriting ├╝berslow Java class into native implementations "enabling the use of hardware acceleration"02:13
javispedrobut they are also busy doing it.02:14
DocScrutinizerI don't buy this platform independent nonsense. It never really worked and I don't see it work in the future. Rather you might ask what'S wrong in on time building of a native app for each device rather than making portable "binaries" that in RL nobody is ever actually porting02:14
javispedroDocScrutinizer: now you sound like achipa suggesting a rewrite for each platform ;)02:15
ieatlintdepends on the app02:15
DocScrutinizerwell, he for sure got a point there02:15
ieatlinti've written a couple apps that have been 95% identical across multiple platforms02:15
DocScrutinizerthough I not exactly suggested reWRITING but just reCOMPILING02:15
specialthere is much in common between the same software on different platforms, but it's a mistake to think that they can be identical, unless they're angry birds.02:15
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ieatlintwell opengl-es does a decent enough job there02:17
javispedroplus, I think the fact that Apple, the one company that has changed instruction architectures in consumer devices quite a few times, does not use a VM is quite enlightening02:18
javispedrocompanies that on the other side have never used more than two IAs on the other side go crazy on the thought of VMs.02:19
javispedrooops, forgive the RAS syndrome ;P02:20
DocScrutinizerall this VM and JIT and P-code whatnot cruft is just an idea of escapist CS profs02:20
wmarone_P-code... haven't heard that used outside of reference to Visual Basic02:21
* wmarone_ shudders02:21
ieatlintsome of it has its place02:21
DocScrutinizerth eidea of P-code is way older than VBA02:21
wmarone_no doubt02:21
ieatlintthere's just something a bit weird at the thought of taking a relatively slow embedded device and adding in a VM that takes additional ram and cpu02:22
* javispedro looks at a SunSpot on a nearby table02:22
ieatlintineffecient, but i think android has proven not impractical02:22
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javispedroandroid IMHO proved it impractical, because... they relented.02:23
ieatlintit's caused nokia to hurt a bit... the fast cpu competition has been spurred by android, trying make devices that can cope with it02:23
javispedroWP7 on the other side it's the one that seems not to have relented yet.02:23
ieatlintnokia devices may be "slower", but their performance is the better place to judge that02:23
javispedroI've checked a few binaries, even from EA games, and no hint of native code, they really do 3D games in C#.02:24
DocScrutinizerwell, toasting my sandwiches with a plasma cutter is also feasible in some way02:24
ieatlintjavispedro: not necessarily02:24
wmarone_javispedro: they're trying the Apple tack of controlling the hardware (just mostly, instead of completely)02:24
ieatlintthe ie9 browser on it is written in c++02:24
ieatlintand partners have access to write things in native code02:24
javispedrothat's what I thought, but see above.02:24
javispedroat least for the sample set I had access to, it was really C#.02:25
ieatlintyeah, i'm surprised then that the well known games are c#02:25
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javispedroWP7 doesn't have OpenGLES, so I guess that if they have to rewrite the engine either way02:25
javispedrothey might as well do it in C# with whatever money MS must be paying them =)02:25
ieatlintpretty much... the xna crap02:25
ieatlinthowever it does it, there must be real hardware accelertion in there02:26
javispedrothat is probably the reason they support only Adreno02:27
javispedroassuming it really is older-ATI-hardware based, they probably had some D3D stuff they could blow the dust off02:27
ieatlintdunno, but i bet there will be a lot of lumia phone handouts02:28
javispedro(though, come to think of it, the MBX also had PocketD3D drivers)02:28
javispedroieatlint: one for each member of the #n950club to begin with... as we're launchpaders...02:29
ieatlintthat's unconfirmed... the offer for them was made before most of us became launchpad members02:29
ieatlintand hasn't necessarily been extended to us02:29
javispedrothey basically completed stopped processing the launchpad incomers queue when the offer was made02:29
javispedro*completely :(02:30
ieatlinti signed up in february02:30
ieatlintgot approved in march after pulling a favour02:30
javispedrome in january :(, not got approved until n95002:30
ieatlintand after all that application process, you suddenly find there's nothing inside02:30
DocScrutinizera bottom line before I call it a day: it still seems to me like SW devels/industry is investing 10 $currency to allow savings on investments for porting things in the magnitude of 1 $currency, and the result is that you still don't have true portability, all the devels have to invest 50 $currency every year into learning a new uebercool new toolkit, and the apps get slow, buggy, and requiring each user to invest twice as much into the02:31
DocScrutinizerfaster fatter hardware than he needed for same apps to run better if only they were native02:31
javispedrobut you get to charge $5 for the newest iteration of $SAME_STUFF_AS_YESTERDAY02:33
javispedroor $800..02:33
ieatlintsounds like the movie industry... i've given up on buying star wars again02:33
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DocScrutinizerthe portability approach makes sense (maybe) for android / winphone with closed source apps, as no company is going to develop a new slightly adapted version for the 538th new device that's coming with android OS. For FOSS however the whole idea is completely pointless02:50
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Mekhmm, great, if you run out of diskspace while installing packages (at least in scratchbox) aegis truncates it restok.conf file, making it impossible to install or remove any packages afterwards...04:02
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Sazpaimonwhat's the bpp of the N9, 16 or 3204:48
Sazpaimoni think someone told me 16, wanted to make sure04:48
ieatlintpretty sure 1604:52
ieatlintmight be 24 though, i see conflicting statements04:53
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npm_anybody know why a single app would end up displaying two identical icons in the app-chooser?05:21
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npmseems like when i updated to use an SVG icon, things broke and i can't figure out why my app shows two icons when installed, and no icons when uninstalled05:21
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berndhsmade a mistake again06:41
berndhswork on harmattan stuff after 11 at night, will give me bad dreams06:42
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meegomyhow i download Real Golf 2011 into n950?06:43
berndhsget a golf club and some balls, use N950 for target ?06:44
berndhsits likely to cause some damage though, getting the balls inside the phone06:44
Sazpaimonieatlint, if it's 24 bit, then lightspark and possibly gnash can be ported to it06:46
meegomyN9 has Real Golf 2011 pre-installed06:47
iekkuberndhs, :D06:49
berndhsat least i have valgrind on the n950 now06:51
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MohammadAGRX-51_so apparently they did lose my N95011:34
cityLightsWHAT? WHO?11:34
cityLights(hi mohammad , long time - no see)11:35
MohammadAGRX-51_Israeli customs or post office11:35
cityLightscan I help?11:35
cityLightsI am going to ramle in afew hours11:35
w00tMohammadAGRX-51_: i think you need to move countries :P11:35
MohammadAGRX-51_not sure anyone can11:35
cityLightsI can pop by ben gurion11:35
MohammadAGRX-51_they said they're looking for it11:35
MohammadAGRX-51_which means it's gone11:35
MohammadAGRX-51_Can I go there?11:36
cityLightsis it in the post or customes?11:36
MohammadAGRX-51_I didn't know the post office was a public part11:36
MohammadAGRX-51_they said it was cleared out of customs11:36
MohammadAGRX-51_but they also said it'll be delivered tomorrow11:36
cityLightsso th post lost it11:36
MohammadAGRX-51_well, been saying that since sunday11:37
cityLightsBIG problem11:37
cityLightsI didnt see your lines here11:37
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cityLightsmay need to pull some strings in this case11:37
MohammadAGRX-51_Can I argue with them at ben gurion11:37
cityLightsdo you have the tracking number?11:37
MohammadAGRX-51_w00t, yeah...11:38
MohammadAGRX-51_cityLights, yes, no updates since seekot11:38
cityLightsif its passed customs - its not in ben gurion any longer11:38
MohammadAGRX-51_tracking still says Clearance delay11:38
cityLightsgot a number?11:38
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cityLightsI will some ppl to check for you11:38
MohammadAGRX-51_waybill 693625834611:39
cityLightsbut I need a way to spot the package11:39
cityLightsok, I will see11:39
MohammadAGRX-51_I can go to ben gurion11:39
cityLightsthis wont help you11:40
MohammadAGRX-51_can I talk to customs there?11:40
cityLightsyes you can11:40
cityLightsok, I goinf back to work11:41
cityLightstell me if you need help11:41
cityLightsthey have a proceedure to find lost goods11:41
MohammadAGRX-51_If it's lost I doubt ddp will send another one...11:41
cityLightsthey need a formal form to start investigating lost goods11:42
cityLightsthis is your mission11:42
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faeniloh yeah, mining12:08
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matrixxcodemining :)12:28
iekkuslavery gets work done...12:29
Anssi138..and pyramids are useful12:29
faenildatamining to everyone! lol12:29
faenilsomeone says they were helped by aliens12:29
faenilbecause pyramids are too complex12:29
Anssi138faenil, i saw that movie too ;)12:30
faenilI did not see that, a friend of mine told me :D12:30
iekkui think they just used subcontractors12:30
GeneralAntilles"We're not really sure exactly how they did this. So--aliens!"12:31
Anssi138they made pyramids and we do great software12:32
RST38hWho does great software here>12:32
RST38hOk, I guess the rest of us do the normal, usual shit.12:36
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djszapi~seen wazd12:37
infobotwazd <> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 7d 11h 55m 50s ago, saying: 'Milhouse: easter egg for geeks? :)'.12:37
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Wirtais there a way to force disable autolock?12:39
DocScrutinizerMohammadAGRX-51_: inform DDP12:41
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SpeedEvilWirta: place a bananna on the screen.12:43
DocScrutinizerkeep them CC'd form beginning, and send a "protocol" of each phonecall you did to callee and to them12:43
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WirtaThanks SpeedEvil12:50
Wirtahad to also include a coconut for it work but that was the right direction12:50
xarcassWirta: do you mean inside an app or system-wide?12:51
MohammadAGRX-51_DocScrutinizer, Imma argue with DHL first12:52
MohammadAGRX-51_I recall the local post office did the same with my first N90012:53
MohammadAGRX-51_after 4 hours of phone calls they "found" it12:53
MohammadAGRX-51_seems like it's a standard answer for cba to look12:53
WirtaI have deleted all accounts (exchange) but it still doesn't allow me to disavle Device lock from settings -> Security -> Device lock12:53
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MohammadAGRX-51_Can I sue for this btw? :P12:55
xarcassWirta: alas, I know nothing about this kind of lock. i've thought that's about the usual lockscreen12:55
DocScrutinizerno, but Nokia can12:55
DocScrutinizeronly if you keep them CC'd12:55
deramAFAIK devicelock can be disabled only with the code you have set12:56
derammight be disabled with reflash, but haven't tested12:56
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WirtaI know the code, and there should be an option in autolock delay settings to disable it fully. This option is no available when exchnage account is in use, but should appear again when exchange account is deleted12:57
WirtaFor some weird reason this is not the case this time12:57
xarcassWirta: If I were you, I would have written to the Nokia Care12:58
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WirtaI was just thinkig that maybe someone has managed to disable it trough terminal, there could be some file we can modify / hack13:00
xarcassWirta: there are many mere mortals among N9 users so I suppose it makes sense to report the problem back to Nokia, because not all people are able to use terminal to solve such issues13:03
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lardmanalterego: ping13:40
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lardmananyone know whether QCamera works on the N900?13:56
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merlin1991ffs rekonq crashed the 2nd time trying to dl the harmattan setup py for scratchbox14:03
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Arkenoiif the phone does not appear on USB at all, is charging battery externally likely to help?14:08
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omicron23Hi there! I want to start using qml on my new N9. Now I am wondering where I can get a qmlviewer for that device. Can you give me a hint?14:22
faenilyou mean qmlviewer to run on N9 ? or qmlviewer for desktop ?14:23
deramif you create qml-appliation project in SDK, it creates the viewer binary for you automatically14:24
omicron23the qmlviewer for N9..14:24
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omicron23deram: does the sdk create a standalone qmlviewer which I can then use to view any qml file? Or do you mean it creates an application that has the viewer inside? (like a QApplication containing a QDeclarativeView)14:27
faenilthat could be a way14:27
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deramomicron23: it creates QApplication with QApplicationDeclarativeViewer in it hardcoded...14:30
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deramomicron23: it creates QApplication with QApplicationDeclarativeViewer in it hardcoded...14:31
deramthe paths to the qml are set there, so it is not universal viewer, but one for just that project14:31
omicron23deram: Alright, so then I think I will create my own qmlviewer ;-) should be straight forward14:32
deramI think this type of launcher is used for getting things running the same way in simulator, emulator and real device... also there are references to symbian14:34
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DocScrutinizer~seen konttori14:57
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infobotkonttori <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 150d 4h 23m 57s ago, saying: 'genius6'.14:57
DocScrutinizer~seen konttori_work14:57
infobotkonttori_work <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 56d 3h 29m 53s ago, saying: 'morning'.14:57
DocScrutinizer~seen konttori_home14:57
infobotkonttori_home <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 117d 14h 25m 44s ago, saying: 'ok, font went in now. Time to go to bed! Night all!'.14:57
DocScrutinizer~seen qgil14:58
infobotqgil <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 29d 13h 12m 12s ago, saying: 'ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!'.14:58
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RST38h~seen cthulhu15:03
infobotRST38h: i haven't seen 'cthulhu'15:03
M4rtinKthat's a good sign :)15:03
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jabis~seen DocScrutinizer_naked15:07
infobotjabis: i haven't seen 'docscrutinizer_naked'15:07
jabisa good sign too -.-15:07
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DocScrutinizerthat's just because DocScrutinizer_naked is way too big ;-P15:08
clbris there irc-videochat now?15:08
jabisI hope not - since I'm wearing nothing but a bathrobe, and my N9 is hooked up as webcam x)15:09
* SpeedEvil wants usb-gadget-webcam mode.15:10
clbrjabis: fortunately N9 does not have flash15:10
jabisyeh -.-15:11
SpeedEvilBoneheaded decision15:11
SpeedEvilProbably not so much a decision as 'we can't spare the people'15:11
deramflash is dead15:11
clbrwe would need a video url extractor15:12
SpeedEvilthere re still many, many sites you absolutely need flash to use.15:12
deramput flashblock to firefox and see how much it is used besize those pesky ads15:12
SpeedEvilAnd not video playback sites.15:12
SpeedEvilFor example, sites constructed around flash interfaces.15:12
jabisI've used flash only to rid some javascript security-drawbacks, with file uploads and stuff15:12
clbrsorry, didn't want to start this discussion ;-) I was only thinking of the camera-spy-flaw patched some days ago15:14
clbri guess there a at least as many flash-needing websites as the ones you need the pointer mode available on the n90015:14 e.g.15:15
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jabisdoes N9 have java-support in the browser btw - wondering can our chairman of the board access the company bank account (Sampo Bank - uses java-applets for auth)15:17
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SpeedEviljabis: url?15:18
SpeedEvilah - nvm - I can't type that on the vkbd. :)15:19
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clbroh, didn't know das does work on the N9, nice! but doesn't15:22
jabislol installing java failed on teh desktop x)15:23
ArkenoiRST38h: any idea if charging battery might help?15:28
cos^where are the flashers for N9? google fails to find them..15:28
cos^i can only find the ocf for N95015:28
Summelijabis: just use the mobile version of the netbank15:29
jabisSummeli: I don't need to use it, but our chairman of the board - who's really not even remotely a tech person, so I'll prolly need to create 'em bookmarks for her15:31
Summeliit's even paint to get sampopankki's java working on desktop linux15:32
Summelipain even15:32
SummeliI wouldn't bother with N9 :)15:32
jabisSpeedEvil: shortened version15:34
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SpeedEvilI get a box saying something about java.16:00
SpeedEvil(on n950, I believe the browser is identical)16:00
SpeedEviljabis: Can you pm me your username and password, so I can properly test? :)16:02
jabisLadataan java <- loading java which it never loads so no go16:02
SpeedEvilMore seriously.16:02
SpeedEvilIt gives the same result on a desktop if I disable java16:02
jabisI won't give our company bank account passwords to you for testing :D16:02
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DocScrutinizerwell, a site that neds java to work is either a very nifty site (e.g. or - usually - just braindamaged16:12
jabiswell the latter suits for an online banking software selection16:12
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jabisthey lost like 40000 customers upon going live with that selection, because the system didn't work x)16:14
kimjujust forget the sampo banks java in non x86 environments. it contains native code libraries for x86 and x86/64. and that native code reads for example your mac-address, serial numbers of your harddrives etc and transmit them to the bank.16:15
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jabisyeh I remembered _something_ like that back when we had some linux powered desktops around the office16:17
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diorahmanis the 39-5 really helps to unbrick any bricked N950?17:50
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DocScrutinizerwell, yes. Depending on what you did to "brick" it17:55
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: Unfortunately, I just got it from Nokia and it's bricked :-( I could see I couldn't upgrade it to 34-2; I think I need the previous one?17:57
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diorahmanDocScrutinizer: ERROR: Failed to erase MMC using 'secure' method17:58
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: but the 22-6 I guess, is nowhere available17:58
DocScrutinizerit is17:58
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: should I bet on 39-5?17:59
DocScrutinizerI'd try it, sure17:59
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: ok, downloading it right now, otherwise I should find a nice little box to run linux, since the flasher available on Linux only18:00
DocScrutinizerunless you definitely don't want to upgrade to most recent PR, and think you could get the device working with 22-6 or 34-218:00
DocScrutinizeruh, no clue about flashing from a windoze box18:01
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: could you point out where I can get 22-6? do you have any clues? I'm on mac :-(18:02
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: I really screwed when I accidentally erased it from my disk :-(18:02
DocScrutinizeraah on mac. Well I know about linux 22-6, not mac, not win18:03
diorahmanyeah, I wish I could quickly get linux bos18:04
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: BTW, do I really need to upgrade it sequentially? beta-1, beta-2 and this?18:08
DocScrutinizerdon't think so18:08
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DocScrutinizerat least for flashing it should work with Linux_OCF_39-5_RM680-RM680-OEM1.bin right away18:09
rafael2kpeople, is the workaroud to load a patched kernel in order to "open" the system working?18:10
berndhsthe OCF_39-5 seems to have the same problem on Fedora 15 as the previous one18:10
DocScrutinizeryou don't even need a "patched" kernel - loading an unsigned original kernel will make the device enter open-mode18:11
DocScrutinizerwell, depends18:12
rafael2kany downsides of using a unsigned kernel?18:12
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: well, it seems doesn't work for me at flashing stage on Mac18:12
DocScrutinizeryes, HARM userland will blow chunks on several subsystems relying on aegis18:12
DocScrutinizerdiorahman: sorry to hear that18:13
rafael2khow annoying..18:13
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: Hahaha, thank you -- how difficult to get a working linux box18:14
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npmheh... a billion dollar prostitute??
diorahmanDocScrutinizer: dont you think it is the device which has the problem?18:16
DocScrutinizerno, probably not18:16
DocScrutinizerflashing problems are 99% caused by PC/system or cable/cabling18:17
DocScrutinizergeneric advice regarding flashing applies18:17
infobotmethinks maemo-flashing is
DocScrutinizerI.E get rid of conflicting drivers, use no hub, good cable, right USB port...18:18
npmhas anybody tried flashing from MeeGo 1.2 netbook ? (which is where i usually plug in the n950)18:23
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DocScrutinizerfsckng blog, doesn't let me post comments - oh well. Anyway, the name just fits for Nokia's first MS phone, no?18:25
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DocScrutinizerand after all they are pretty much in good company with Pachero (Ford?) and Moko (Openmoko)18:27
DocScrutinizerfinding a good international name is FSCKNG expensive18:30
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DocScrutinizerSony shelled out several mio $, and just one country (korea or sth) caused it to become Sony and not Sonny18:31
DocScrutinizersome Nokia sub-departments even have a record for picking such names: NOLO, FIASCO18:35
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SpeedEvilOh come off it.18:41
SpeedEvilFIASCO has to be knowing.18:41
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rafael2kpeople, have you realized that N950 uses compressed swap in ram19:33
rafael2k256M of "compressed swap"19:33
rafael2kvery clever in order to workaroud low ram19:34
SpeedEvilI was using it back in 1997?19:34
berndhsso you take 1/4 of your RAM to compensate for not having much RAM ?19:35
rafael2kgzip /dev/ram19:35
rafael2kif I remember correctly, it adds a new layer that (de)compresses the ram blocks before storing/reading them19:36
rafael2kbtw, can you people point me where to get a kernel that "opens" my N950?19:37
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SpeedEvilIf you do that, large chunks of harmattan stop working19:40
SpeedEvilAegisfs goes read-only.19:40
faenilheya :)19:40
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DocScrutinizerand aiui the source for most recent kernel got not released yet?19:40
DocScrutinizer(if it differs at all from the prev version available)19:41
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faenilis there a way to enable landscape in n950?19:42
faenilnot only in screensaver19:42
faeniland which works on 39-5 :D19:42
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rafael2kSpeedEvil: but simple things like phone calls, messaging, irssi are affected by the lack of aegis?19:47
SpeedEvilAs I understand it it superficially works.19:47
SpeedEvilBut, for example, call logs and incoming messages don't/aren't stored.19:47
rafael2kwell, so the tactic is, boot "open" kernel, change what I want, rebook using stock nokia kernel...19:49
SpeedEvilI need to properly understand the system to see how it might be possible to get round that.19:49
SpeedEvilChanging stuff without providing the right signature for the altered thing will mean when it goes to run it, it has the wrong signature.19:49
rafael2kthis night I;ll play with this issue19:49
DocScrutinizeras I put it yesterday: you can't get open mode in HARM, you just can "switch to another OS" - if only by loading a non-signed kernel, and then watch HARM userland fall apart19:50
DocScrutinizerrafael2k: changing "what you want" may and will cause HARM/aegis to MALF next time you boot to normal mode19:51
* SpeedEvil saw MALF on n900.19:51
SpeedEvilstop dsme19:51
rafael2kDocScrutinizer: I'm starting to understand how deep the problem is19:53
DocScrutinizerand as aiui aegis is checking hashes based on inode, you basically have no chance other than reflashing to restore things to a working state19:53
fluxif 'open' mode doesn't work, is there a mode in which aegis works, but you have access to a shell that has access to everything?19:54
SpeedEvilOnly if you have the appropriate keys from nokia.19:55
SpeedEvil(which you can't get)19:55
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fluxhmm, I would expect an aegis-enabled kernel is a subset of open kernel, that is, only stuff that depends on being signed by Nokia dosen't work? (things such as perhaps encrypted (?) nokia store credential stroage)19:56
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fluxso, one should be able to provide new keys and sign everything with those etc19:56
jabiseven the nokia store tokens haven't got all credentials ;)19:58
DocScrutinizerno, as the keys are stored in a TPM (special storage area aka Fritz Chip) that gets irreversibly shut down on entering open mode, and e.g "crypted" or signed fs (aegisfs) can't get unlocked with a new key when it got secured with a Nokia key that's not available now19:59
DocScrutinizerwhich means you need to implement the whole stuff in a way that'S not linked to TPM but rather to some emu of it, then build all the fs images etc with your own new keys that you store to the TPM emu20:00
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DocScrutinizerthen still you may run into nokia binaries that aren't just hash-signed but actually encrypted and thus won't ever run on your fake system20:01
DocScrutinizerthere are no such crypted Nokia binaries known... yet?20:02
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fluxdocscrutinizer, does the flasher erase TPM?20:02
fluxor rewrite20:02
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DocScrutinizerunless you do that --cert-write thing that's notorious to *permanently* brick your device20:03
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* khertan should probably forget his try to do a source code editor in qml for Harmattan, and recompile vim with python support ...20:04
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rafael2k<- very interesting article20:12
rafael2kand one comment I found very interesting: "this is not my beautiful house"20:12
khertanAny javascript expert in the room ?20:16
khertani m trying to understant why virtual keyboard didn't open on some editable text20:16
khertanin webkit20:16
khertanand while it s working with a n950 and his hardware keyboard, it ll be pretty useless for n9 users :)20:17
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abDocScrutinizer, one can copy content of aegisfs mounted partitions. Next time they simply might not be mounted and yet everything will continue working if your kernel parts are responding properly to aegis requests. aegisfs is a separate story than aegis verifier20:41
abalso, accounts store is not really connected with aegisfs, it is LUKS encrypted with device lock-based master key and SIM card-derived keys that should work even with aegis missing.20:44
DocScrutinizerthere's exactly one way to get a really "cracked" and open and working HARM: find a liberal xloader that has a signature which allows it to get loaded by bootloader. This liberal xloader may in turn load end execute a hacked NOLO which in turn would load and execute patched kernels, without any of the three ever shutting down TPM. If there is any such xloader out there (maybe N900's?) then Nokia platsec *lost* the game and nothing they20:44
DocScrutinizercould "fix", if not (very likely) then there's simply no way to ever get a full working HARM system with user in 100% control of things20:44
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DocScrutinizerof course there's a egg this chicken came from: the signing app with proper sec-key to sign xloader (or NOLO, or kernel, or...) with a proper signature matching the "pub-key" in TPM21:11
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski would know more about the details, I for one think *nobody* can change the root cert burnt to the OMAP and used for verifying the xloader21:13
DocScrutinizerprobably TI does this for Nokia, and I'm just wondering if the pubkey went from Nokia to TI, or the secret key went from TI to Nokia21:14
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abDocScrutinizer, you mean, M-Shield with Nokia's BB5 as an E-Fuse?21:28
abMotorola does similar with Droid X. Of course, their E-Fuse is their own.21:30
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RST38h"Halbherr also revealed that he's been pushing Microsoft to integrate NFC and a "positioning framework" to make its mobile OS work better with Nokia's Navteq mapping platform and thereby provide new location-based services."21:33
RST38hwp7 has no nfc and positioning support? =)21:34
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DanielWif i am able to spend some (not weeks) time on it and am a software developer,  what would be the quickest way to have a working icq client on my nokia n9?21:51
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fralscheck for telepathy-haze, use mc-tool to add icq account and chat away?21:52
DanielWthere is already telepathy-haze for harmattan?21:53
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fralsseems not, so you would have to compile it21:58
DanielWit's based on libpurple which doesn't exist either22:00
DanielWand libpurple has a lot of dependencies.22:02
DanielWbut most of them might be optional22:02
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DanielWi read there were plans for a community repository.  where can i read details about those plans?22:05
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dm8tbrDanielW: it's the deployment starts soon22:08
dm8tbrDanielW: the fastest way for icq would be to get an xmpp (aka jabber) account and use an ICQ gateway22:09
dm8tbrworks great for me22:09
DanielWwell i currently don't know of a public xmpp provider with working icq gateway.  i suppose i can set one up for myself somewhere22:10
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dm8tbrthere isn't? I thought there were a few with icq-transports?22:11
dm8tbr(I'm running my own)22:11
DanielWwell i believe they all get problems when they have lots of icq users22:11
dm8tbrbut yeah, I'd expect plugging telepathy-haze in there shouldn't be too hard22:12
dm8tbrbonus points for doing it on COBS :)22:13
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DanielWon my n900 i didn't use icq integrated in the normal messaging because it didn't support writing notifications.  so i went for pidgin, it was very nice on the n900.  a windows for every parallel chat and in the taskswitcher i got a quick overview about who is typing or has something posted.   the gtk gui of pidgin wouldn't work very well on the n9 though22:17
dm8tbrcommunity OBS22:18
dm8tbrit's also the backend for the community apps service22:18
DanielWi see. will there be some integration between the cobs and the free repo?22:18
DocScrutinizerab: sorry, I already mentioned jacekowski is the expert. I only know the SoC has a pubkey to hash-verify the xloader. The xloader in turn loads the NOLO 2nd-stage bootloader. N9(50) NOLO first refused to load any non-signed kernel, and now (recent version) tears down the security system aka TPM in SoC when kernel is not correctly signed but still loads and executes it. You can't patch OLO to keep TPM alive as then xloader won't load22:19
DocScrutinizerNOLO, and you can't patch xloader as then ROM-bl will blow chunks (or tear down TPM, dunno)22:19
DocScrutinizerab: this is a TI OMAP thing completely unrelated to BB522:19
abDocScrutinizer, as I understood, M-Shield relies on OEM-provided chip that stores the keys and in Nokia case this is provided by BB5 system22:20
DocScrutinizerit's been there in N900 as well, just N900/fremantle xloader didn't care about NOLO signature, or properly shut down TPM then chainloaded the evidently unsigned fremantle-NOLO22:20
abDocScrutinizer, yes22:20
DocScrutinizerM-Shield is a function *inside* OMAP SoC22:21
DocScrutinizerfor all I understood so far22:21
Stskeepsab has it right, AFAIK22:21
dm8tbrDanielW: that's what I'm saying, you'll be able to put your app from COBS into the community 'app store'22:22
DocScrutinizerask jacekowski22:22
DanielWdm8tbr: so there are also plans for a gui package manager for that repo?22:23
dm8tbrDanielW: AFAIK it already exists, haven't tried it though22:23
DocScrutinizerall I know is there's a secure and a non-secure variant of OMAP3xx0 - the secure one is supposed to have TPM22:23
DocScrutinizerand the signing thing is even mentioned on OMAPwiki iirc22:24
abtrue, this always was a case since OMAP222:24
DocScrutinizerthe alien xloader "hack" was how they cracked milestone(?)22:24
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DocScrutinizerand I even seem to recall details about implementation of signature checking into BOOTROM being mentioned in the OMAP User MAnual22:27
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DocScrutinizerallegedly there's even example code how to hash xloader, to build your signing tool22:28
DocScrutinizerall this doesn't match well with M-Shield being sth implemented via BB522:28
DocScrutinizerbut - as mentioned - ask somebody who got a bit of a clue of it all, ask jacekowski22:29
DocScrutinizerwithout him I wouldn't even know about existence of xloader22:30
abDocScrutinizer, bb5 has more features than M-Shield provides, but in this specific context all M-Shield does when interacting with bb5 is to fetch public keys from a bb5 subsystem that serves as an E-Fuse to M-Shield internally. That's my understanding. There are more things in bb5, of course.22:31
DocScrutinizer(probably ;-D )22:31
DocScrutinizerI got nfc what's an E-Fuse22:32
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dm8tbrEMU is HS with 'known' key for use in EVMs like blaze or zoom22:35
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: thanks, that's what I was referring to22:36
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dm8tbrI'd expect most HS related tools to be NDA though22:37
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DocScrutinizeractually most are not, it seems. It's not a security-by-obscurity concept, rather they even use u-boot, and as mentioned before I think ROM-BL is well documented by TI as well, it's just you have no chance to intercept/fake the root cert anywhere, and correctly inplemented the chain of trust ensures you're running a non-tampered system22:50
DocScrutinizeror got no more access to the root cert as the component breaking chain of trust is supposed to shut down the TPM22:52
DocScrutinizerbut I know one basic thing for sure: xloader is responsible to initialize very basic things as e.g. RAM, so there's no way ROM-BL would access BB5 to fetch any sort of verification token for xloader. No, this cert is inside SoC22:54
dm8tbrrom-bl is _very_ basic22:55
dm8tbrI'd expect the fancy stuff to hapen somewhere in the later (trusted) stage22:55
DocScrutinizerN950 NOLO for sure is accessing BB522:57
dm8tbrthat's after X-loader/MLO, right?22:57
DocScrutinizeryou can tell by the semi-certified fact that firmware revision is stored in BB5, so you can't downgrade22:57
DocScrutinizeryes, xloader loads NOLO/2nd-stage22:57
DocScrutinizerROM-bl(0th stage) -> xloader/1st-stage -> NOLO/2nd-stage -> kernel22:59
dm8tbrbtw: IIRC xloader is also quite size constrained. I think it needs to fit in the CPU SRAM22:59
DocScrutinizereach one sign-checks the next one on loading it22:59
DocScrutinizeryes, some 64k max size for xloader23:00
DocScrutinizeror was it 16k ?23:00
dm8tbrI remebered 32 :)23:00
DocScrutinizersth like that23:00
DocScrutinizeryour (user's) only chance to repossess your own hardware is to find a xloader that has proper matching hash, and loads arbitrary 2nd-stage without tearing down the TPM23:02
DocScrutinizer(at least if you still want to run a HARM system in normal mode)23:03
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DocScrutinizerwell, you *might* get away with a cracked NOLO as well, as flashing gets controlled by NOLO and so you could hack NOLO to forbid flashing of a new "fixed" xloader23:05
DocScrutinizeranyway, you can't get/do either, as you'Re missing the seckey to sign any of both23:06
DocScrutinizereither catburglar Elop's apartment and lift the seckey, or find a liberal xloader that "by any strange luck" has a matching signature so it loads and runs on N95023:08
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DocScrutinizerNB Nokia could publish such a liberal xloader any time, as there's no threat to *user's* security at all involved in it. As it needs explicit user action caled "flashing" to install a new xloader23:09
DocScrutinizerno rogue app, however nifty, could sneak in and take over the system by installing that liberal xloader23:11
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DocScrutinizer100% protect system from user, not protect user from threats23:11
clbrit's more about the music industry's bits in your filesystem23:11
Stskeepsexcept there's no drm23:12
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DocScrutinizerthere is some form of DRM, it's called "Nokia account"23:16
clbris there a law in europe (finland) prohibiting to sell communications devices with back doors, btw?23:16
DocScrutinizernope, except allegedly content providers and carriers mandating such a security framework23:17
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DocScrutinizerso one slavery creates the next one23:18
clbrmaybe it's something like the n9seconds puzzle for geeks. "nokia" spelled backwards as the signing key, haha23:18
DocScrutinizerintil finally with HD+ you can't fast-forward in your recorded HDTV any more23:19
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DocScrutinizereither you go for it and accept you're seeling your attention and virtually any other right you might once have had to those making money on you, or you refuse to use those devices23:20
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DocScrutinizer>>Your mind is totally controlled, it has been stuffed into my mold and you will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold.<< (FZ, I'm the slime)23:23
DanielWdm8tbr: i got an xmpp account with icq transport. i added it with mc-tool but i can not connect :-(23:24
dm8tbrDanielW: sorry to hear, might be e.g. a connection issue due to tls or so23:25
dm8tbrif you have developer mode on you should be able to get to the syslog IIRC23:25
xavirhi. is there some sort of barcode and/or qr scanner app with price check available for the n9?23:27
DanielWdm8tbr: played arround with the settings and got it working. would be nice if it could show user names and not just icq uins23:29
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "A place for harmattan device and development discussions |NEW flasher to "unbrick": | Developers check this: | | logs: | UPGRADES: | Customers help customers on #N9, hurry and you're the senior member"23:33
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