| MohammadAG | Swipe, show yourself | Kinetic, Wiggle yourself | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| faenil | gri: that's true, but you don't break the display, you break the phone :P | 00:00 |
| faenil | MohammadAG: lol | 00:01 |
| DanielW | about my calendar access with qtmobility: i am getting this to the output: "sqlitestorage.cpp: 268 - database "/home/developer/.calendar/db" opened" . so it does somehow open it? | 00:01 |
| gri | DanielW: output QOrganizerManager::availableManagers () to your console | 00:03 |
| gri | because you should initialize QOrganizerManager with "tracker" instead of "" | 00:03 |
| DanielW | ok, i see the problem | 00:03 |
| DanielW | when i start it as developer (from qtcreator) or in the ssh console it starts as user "developer" | 00:04 |
| gri | that might also be a problem | 00:04 |
| DanielW | and that doesn't have any entires | 00:04 |
| MohammadAG | oh no no no | 00:04 |
| MohammadAG | bend yourself | 00:04 |
| MohammadAG | now that's marketing | 00:05 |
| gri | DanielW: You have to use the user account otherwise other things like using accounts also does not work | 00:05 |
| faenil | MohammadAG: bend yourself! ahahaha | 00:05 |
| DanielW | is there a way to do this from qtcreator or the ssh konsole? | 00:05 |
| gri | DanielW: most simple way would be: ssh onto the device as developer, become root with devel-su and "rootme" as password, call "passwd user" and set a password, allow user login in /etc/passwd, deploy ssh key to user account using qtcreator - but that's not simple if you have no clue of those parts | 00:07 |
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| gri | or I am completely wrong and there is a simple way :) | 00:07 |
| mgedmin | hm, so are you saying that if I run an app using Qt Creator's Run (which uses the 'developer' account), my app won't get access to certain stuff? | 00:08 |
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| gri | mgedmin: It gets access but it creates its own files | 00:08 |
| mgedmin | hm... maybe it makes some kind of sense -- I won't accidentally wipe my real calendar, say... | 00:08 |
| DanielW | doesn't sound too complicated. i am using linux for something like 10+ years | 00:08 |
| gri | mgedmin: So you can't see users's accounts as developer | 00:08 |
| gri | you may have login dialogs popping up | 00:09 |
| faenil | gri: does that mean he has to change "user" psw if he wants to deply to app to ovi store? | 00:10 |
| gri | faenil: no | 00:11 |
| faenil | I mean, first time the user will start the software it will change password or what? | 00:11 |
| faenil | ok, so it asks for login | 00:11 |
| faenil | and that's it | 00:11 |
| gri | faenil: if you deploy your application using qtcreator and start it, it will run from developer user | 00:11 |
| faenil | which would sound weird to people :D | 00:11 |
| faenil | gri: yes I got that | 00:11 |
| gri | if you start it from your .desktop file in the menu, it will run as "user" | 00:11 |
| gri | if you save th $HOME/some.db this may be two files then | 00:11 |
| gri | user and developer share the same MyDocs dir but the rest is not the same as far as I remember | 00:12 |
| faenil | yeah I got what you mean | 00:12 |
| faenil | but who knows its "user" password? people who bought N9 I mean | 00:14 |
| gri | you don't have to know it | 00:14 |
| DanielW | you don't have to know it | 00:14 |
| gri | root user can change the password for everyone | 00:14 |
| gri | "passwd username" sets the password for a given user | 00:14 |
| DanielW | and thanks now my calendar access is working | 00:14 |
| faenil | I know -.- | 00:14 |
| faenil | what I am saying is | 00:14 |
| faenil | let's suppose he put this app on the store | 00:14 |
| DanielW | but not sure if it has anything to do with aegis | 00:14 |
| faenil | and some n9 user downloads it | 00:14 |
| faenil | what will it do about this login thing? | 00:14 |
| mgedmin | faenil, NOTHING AT ALL | 00:14 |
| gri | faenil: the login thing I mentioned was something different | 00:14 |
| faenil | how does it get access then? | 00:14 |
| mgedmin | apps, launched from the app launcher, run under the 'user' account | 00:15 |
| faenil | ok | 00:15 |
| faenil | ok so they do that by default | 00:15 |
| mgedmin | apps launched from the Qt Creator using the SDK Connectivity Tool run under the 'developer' account | 00:15 |
| faenil | the problem was only that Daniel was running it from creator | 00:15 |
| faenil | yeah okay | 00:15 |
| mgedmin | these two accounts have separate calendars etc. -- stuff in /home/user versus /home/developer | 00:15 |
| faenil | of course | 00:15 |
| faenil | sure sure | 00:16 |
| faenil | that was all known | 00:16 |
| faenil | I just was not thinking about the fact that once you start it you're already logged | 00:16 |
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| DanielW | weird there are two calendars in my nokia n9 with chinese names. they seem to contain chinese holidays ... | 00:20 |
| faenil | javispedro: do you know anything about Nemo on N950? | 00:20 |
| javispedro | like? | 00:20 |
| faenil | like what's the current status of the fw image? is there anything I can test? | 00:20 |
| faenil | and play with? | 00:21 |
| * Arkenoi asked local nokia guys, they told me they have no hw flasher for n950, just the same usb procedure | 00:21 | |
| Arkenoi | damn | 00:21 |
| faenil | not officially | 00:21 |
| javispedro | there is CE 1.3 | 00:21 |
| Arkenoi | wonder if charging the battery separately will help | 00:22 |
| Arkenoi | doubt it | 00:22 |
| faenil | javispedro: CE 1.3 is not NEMO | 00:23 |
| faenil | and it's not usable :) | 00:23 |
| javispedro | how not? | 00:23 |
| faenil | have you tried it on the n950? | 00:23 |
| javispedro | it's not like it will be utterly different considering the few time that has past | 00:23 |
| faenil | I know, I don't care about that ;) it's just that the core has changed anyway, so... | 00:23 |
| faenil | have you tried it ? | 00:24 |
| faenil | on n950 | 00:24 |
| Arkenoi | does anyone here have any "unbricking" success story when generic ocf did not work and any other tricks do? | 00:24 |
| javispedro | nope | 00:24 |
| faenil | okay, then I'll tell you some known things :) | 00:24 |
| faenil | 1) battery level not working | 00:24 |
| faenil | 2) camera not working | 00:24 |
| faenil | 3) can't receive SMS (I could not) | 00:24 |
| mgedmin | when ocf failed I shipped my n950 back to nokia, and nokia gave me another one | 00:24 |
| faenil | 4) Can't sent sms by contact | 00:24 |
| javispedro | faenil: I don't know why you are telling this to me | 00:25 |
| mgedmin | (the other way around actually: they shipped me a new one, and a prepaid dhl envelope to return the broken one0 | 00:25 |
| faenil | javispedro: just chatting :) thought you were into that given you are a hacky guy | 00:25 |
| faenil | and just asked if you had news about Nemo on n950 :) | 00:25 |
| faenil | and because I think that's where we should spend our time on :D | 00:26 |
| Arkenoi | mgedmin: this takes some time. probably a lot of it, if they have a spare one at all | 00:26 |
| mgedmin | a few days, yes | 00:26 |
| * DocScrutinizer hands javispedro a sol y sombra | 00:26 | |
| Arkenoi | mgedmin: and exactly how it failed? | 00:26 |
| mgedmin | emmc chip failed, or something | 00:27 |
| faenil | Doc : lol | 00:27 |
| mgedmin | disk read errors, remount ro, etc.; then flashing failed in the middle of rootfs | 00:27 |
| faenil | don't you think Nemo is the way to go? :D | 00:27 |
| mgedmin | after which it wouldn't boot at all | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | faenil: I think javispedro will pick what he thinks is his way to go | 00:28 |
| faenil | gri: I haven't eaten yet...we've eaten so much during these three days that I'm never hungry, lol | 00:28 |
| faenil | Doc: I was actually talking to you :D | 00:29 |
| faenil | Doc: and ofc, everyone will make his choice..we're just chatting here :) don't take it personal :D | 00:29 |
| gri | faenil: I ate a lot when I came home :D | 00:29 |
| * SpeedEvil may have overprepared for GoF2 end. 150 nukes, maxed-out everything. custom shield and cloak. | 00:30 | |
| SpeedEvil | Way too easy. (on hard mode) | 00:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 00:30 |
| faenil | xD | 00:30 |
| Arkenoi | SpeedEvil: flying mantis? which weapons? | 00:31 |
| SpeedEvil | three maxheat o20. They do lots of damage when locked, but I hate that they're almost useless when not. | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: probably time to have some fun on the dark side then | 00:32 |
| SpeedEvil | On balance, I prefer the slightly weaker ship with a turret. | 00:32 |
| Arkenoi | SpeedEvil: i hate that target lock is likely to stick to wrong ship | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | pirate the pirates, kill the cops... ;-P | 00:33 |
| SpeedEvil | That's why those suck. | 00:33 |
| gri | faenil: good night, have to stand up early for university :( | 00:33 |
| javispedro | bah, I only have 30minutes so far in GoF | 00:33 |
| SpeedEvil | The rest of the projectiles go where you aim them. | 00:33 |
| faenil | SpeedEvil: there was the head of GoF company here at DevDays, and he showed a bit of game | 00:33 |
| javispedro | so there's a difficulty setting? | 00:33 |
| faenil | and he launched something which exploded to the whole screen xD | 00:33 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: I'm not sure what it _does_ | 00:33 |
| * javispedro missed it | 00:33 | |
| faenil | gri: cya :D | 00:33 |
| SpeedEvil | faenil: 'start new game' -> easy/... | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | in the old days it was mainly dampening which isn't exactly what you usually see in outer space | 00:34 |
| * Arkenoi had one maxheat, a custom laser, a weapon with fasted fire rate and something i do not remember.. well, anyways, everything is lost as i had no backup for things "not important enough" as usual :-/ | 00:34 | |
| faenil | oh ok so that was the beginning | 00:34 |
| *** gri is now known as zz_gri | 00:34 | |
| faenil | I thought it was some spoiler or something lol | 00:34 |
| faenil | I have never played it :) | 00:34 |
| faenil | he didn't start the official app | 00:35 |
| faenil | so I thought that was something new | 00:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | but of course a good steering computer would dampen any movement automatically | 00:35 |
| faenil | the app had no icon :) | 00:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Something fast firing, with good range is best IMO, even if not best damage rate | 00:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Ah - extreme mode looks more interesting. | 00:36 |
| Arkenoi | will there be valkyrie addon? | 00:37 |
| * Arkenoi played for two months or so | 00:37 | |
| faenil | so is this game really worth playing :) | 00:38 |
| Arkenoi | yes | 00:38 |
| Arkenoi | it is much like Elite | 00:38 |
| SpeedEvil | It's limited. | 00:38 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: pfft you are right, can't believe I missed it the first time, probably I was bored of the introduction and in "hit next, next, next, next" mode | 00:38 |
| Arkenoi | Elite's universe is much bigger though and there are more things to do | 00:39 |
| SpeedEvil | It needs various things, and the interface screw is high. | 00:39 |
| SpeedEvil | It needs a random universe, probably prices which vary as you sell stuff, and some way of seeing what _all_ the prices you have seen for an item are, not just the high/low. | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | I want back my ELITE | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;'( | 00:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Also - the drill noise is broken and doesn't always stop. | 00:40 |
| faenil | what's elite? another game? | 00:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Elite is what this is a clone of. | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | bell and braben, elite | 00:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Elite was less shiny, but probably with better gameplay. | 00:40 |
| SpeedEvil | For example - the 'radar' in this version gives you _no_ feedback, so you can't slow for targets outside range. | 00:41 |
| faenil | oh ok | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually I hate the "shiny" remote-control view of the ship | 00:41 |
| SpeedEvil | That too. | 00:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and the radar is useless | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | at least compared to ELITE's | 00:42 |
| SpeedEvil | If you skip the cutscenes, you'll get confused. | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | the fights seem more like WW-I aircraft dogfights to me | 00:43 |
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| Arkenoi | Oolite is great | 00:44 |
| Arkenoi | but i am afraid porting is too much effort | 00:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Ah - extreme mode is _easier_ - the guns work as you'd expect. | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game) | 00:45 |
| faenil | thx doc | 00:45 |
| mgedmin | hm? do guns work in surprising ways in easy mode? I hadn't noticed | 00:46 |
| javispedro | http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/10/prideaux-prosthetic-arm-duo.jpg | 00:46 |
| Arkenoi | http://www.oolite.org/ | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | mgedmin: they sometimes auto-target, making 'leading' not work as expected. | 00:47 |
| mgedmin | hm, I haven't noticed | 00:48 |
| faenil | time to leave guys | 00:48 |
| faenil | it's midnight and I have not eaten yet | 00:48 |
| faenil | :) | 00:48 |
| mgedmin | no food = no fun! | 00:48 |
| faenil | bye bye | 00:48 |
| faenil | yup, thing is, at Qt Dev Days there was food every hour | 00:49 |
| faenil | so I've eaten a lot there... xD | 00:49 |
| faenil | bye bye :) | 00:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer | >>The sequels employed a realistic flight model based on Newtonian mechanics rather than the original arcade-style engine. While this was more realistic, many players also found it frustratingly difficult, particularly in combat<< :-D | 00:50 |
| ieatlint | "more realistic" ... yes. i demand my inter-galactic space fighting games be as close to real life as possible | 00:51 |
| * DocScrutinizer ponders to nuke his GSM carrier O2, for not allowing to book another month of data plan since 36h | 00:52 | |
| javispedro | ieatlint: May I suggest Orbiter here. | 00:53 |
| javispedro | despite it being propietary win32only software | 00:53 |
| javispedro | rather nice and very interesting time waster imho. | 00:53 |
| javispedro | man, I SO want my VGA card back., | 00:54 |
| ieatlint | :P | 00:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer | orbiter, a friend of mine is wasting weeks on it :-D | 00:56 |
| javispedro | btw | 00:57 |
| javispedro | ready to start crushing the dreams and hopes of all those people that will buy an n9 thinking they can install wp7 on it? | 00:58 |
| javispedro | "but but but they are the same specs!" | 00:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | ieatlint: though I agree there's no way to implement realistic intergalactic hyperjumps in a game, I still don't want my spececraft to behave like a worldwar-1 biplane with a getling gun | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: SoC? haha | 00:59 |
| javispedro | (reading the engadget comments and already finding some saying "the lumia is nice but I'll buy a N9 because it has 64GiB and the community will install WP7 to it" | 00:59 |
| javispedro | ) | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | WTF?! LOL | 01:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, the wp7 FOSS community will do that in no time X-P | 01:00 |
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| ieatlint | hey, i've already got wp7 installed on my n9 | 01:02 |
| ieatlint | well, close enough, i set a blue screen | 01:02 |
| javispedro | you need to set it on fire | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | well MALF is a legit analog to BSOD | 01:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I want more simulation-style space fighter games. | 01:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Like Freespace. | 01:07 |
| javispedro | I want X-Plane :( | 01:07 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I need to setup my HOTAS rig again. | 01:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Plane is fuuuun | 01:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Helicopters are the best. | 01:09 |
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| tsdgeos_ | is it possible to use meego components 1.1 in the n9[50] ? | 01:21 |
| DanielW | is anyone trying to port pidgin or libpurple to the n9? | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | tsdgeos_: please elaborate | 01:21 |
| tsdgeos_ | DocScrutinizer: well, as far as i can see the phone only ships meego components 1.0 | 01:22 |
| tsdgeos_ | i want to use 1.1 since TextField in 1.0 is missing the onAccepted signal | 01:22 |
| tsdgeos_ | is that elaborated enough? | 01:23 |
| M4rtinK | GeneralAntilles: Frontier might work in dosbox :) | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, probably I'm not the right one to answer as I've no clue what's meego components | 01:23 |
| tsdgeos_ | import com.nokia.meego in QML | 01:23 |
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| tsdgeos_ | seems one has to wait for the next image | 01:24 |
| tsdgeos_ | sad | 01:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | M4rtinK: tried it, never got it to really work, and that'S been on a win98 P-II-300 and it's not been to *slow* | 01:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | too *slow* | 01:25 |
| M4rtinK | I think I remember playing it just fine on Win 98 or XP | 01:26 |
| M4rtinK | on my Pentium 150 MHz :) | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep, P-II-300 is too fast | 01:28 |
| M4rtinK | oh, so another game using the CPU as its clock ? | 01:28 |
| M4rtinK | well, that could get problematic | 01:29 |
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| javispedro | I'm pondering if I should make a pseudoformal GPL request for the PR1.1's kernel | 01:32 |
| javispedro | source | 01:32 |
| javispedro | . | 01:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, istn't the kernel source puslished meanwhile? | 01:34 |
| javispedro | if you know where, please tell... | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | dang, I referred to *something* several days ago | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | dunno if that'S exactly what you were looking for | 01:35 |
| javispedro | on this channel? | 01:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | mhd | 01:35 |
| tsdgeos_ | javispedro: pr1.1 has not yet been released, as it? | 01:36 |
| javispedro | it has, for n950. | 01:36 |
| tsdgeos_ | hmmm | 01:36 |
| tsdgeos_ | i have a n950, what is pr1.1, http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/release/N950-39-5/ <- this? | 01:37 |
| javispedro | it's fun that we finally have the "beta channel" for firmware updates that we have been requesting for years | 01:37 |
| javispedro | tsdgeos_: yes. | 01:37 |
| tsdgeos_ | ok | 01:37 |
| tsdgeos_ | sad | 01:38 |
| tsdgeos_ | then | 01:38 |
| tsdgeos_ | because it means it does not contain qml meego components 1.1 | 01:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: nm, was probably the 1.0 kernel source | 01:38 |
| tsdgeos_ | i was hoping pr1.1 would include it | 01:39 |
| javispedro | who's "meego components" | 01:39 |
| javispedro | s/who's/whose | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | I asked same | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | seems sth related to QML | 01:40 |
| javispedro | I can guess that =) | 01:40 |
| tsdgeos_ | https://qt.gitorious.org/qt-components/qt-components/blobs/master/src/meego/ | 01:40 |
| tsdgeos_ | these ones | 01:41 |
| javispedro | so, nokia's. | 01:41 |
| tsdgeos_ | yes | 01:41 |
| javispedro | those are included for sure, 1.1 | 01:41 |
| tsdgeos_ | hmmm | 01:41 |
| * tsdgeos_ starts the terminal | 01:41 | |
| Frye | Any of you have pointers to documentation about showing application specific information in the notification screen? | 01:42 |
| Frye | on N9 | 01:42 |
| Frye | I have tried to look, but I'm all new to this so most likely from wrong places | 01:42 |
| Frye | I mean the N9 UX checklist even does not have anything about the notification stuff | 01:42 |
| javispedro | Frye: it's called "Events view", might help you to search | 01:42 |
| Frye | ok | 01:42 |
| Frye | bingo | 01:43 |
| tsdgeos_ | javispedro: you're right | 01:43 |
| tsdgeos_ | they are there | 01:43 |
| tsdgeos_ | now the big question is can i check for them? | 01:43 |
| tsdgeos_ | because they being there doesn't really help much :D | 01:44 |
| javispedro | "check for them"? | 01:45 |
| tsdgeos_ | well | 01:45 |
| tsdgeos_ | let's say someone tries to run my app on a n9 that does not have pr1.1 | 01:45 |
| tsdgeos_ | so no qml meego components 1.1 is there | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | the app won't install, missing dependencies | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | AIUI | 01:46 |
| javispedro | tsdgeos_: depend on qt-components (>= 1.1) | 01:47 |
| tsdgeos_ | let's assume i want to put my app on the ovi store... | 01:47 |
| javispedro | then you should ask the ovi store | 01:47 |
| javispedro | I wonder how they will handle different PR releases this time. | 01:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | HAH | 01:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | they'll assume there's no such thing like different PRs, as you basicaly can't reject a SSU | 01:48 |
| tsdgeos_ | SSU? | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | OTA update | 01:49 |
| tsdgeos_ | well | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | upgrade to PR1.1 | 01:49 |
| tsdgeos_ | but are they going to OTA everyone in the world at the same time? | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, basically yes | 01:50 |
| tsdgeos_ | ok | 01:50 |
| javispedro | in N900 times, iirc, there were different builds for each app in the store for each PR. | 01:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | fremantle-1.3 | 01:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | intoduced really late | 01:50 |
| javispedro | I do not think they are going to do the same (as I can get apps from the Store on 1.1 N950 just fine) | 01:50 |
| javispedro | they'll have a plan I guess. | 01:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | optimist ;-P | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm more than amazed OVI works at all | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh and scratch my cmment about fremantle-1.3, this applied to maemo repo, not to OVI | 01:53 |
| merlin1991 | at least on extras fremantle-1.3 was a symlink to fremantle-1.2 | 01:54 |
| tsdgeos_ | i've updated stuff for the n900 for the ovi store | 01:55 |
| merlin1991 | ah wait it was 1.2 -> fremantle | 01:55 |
| tsdgeos_ | they basically say you can assume 1.3 is there | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe because PR1.3 was "compatible" ? | 01:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: yup, that's mor elike it | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | tsdgeos_: toldya. They'll also assume the most recent PR on N9 is installed, and not bother to keep any compatibility for older PR versions | 01:58 |
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| Frye | Perfect now I have something to read \o/ | 01:58 |
| Frye | Thanks javispedro | 01:59 |
| javispedro | yw | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | though they could. OVI should be able to transparently detect the PR version of your device, from a browser ID or whatever, and dynamically offer the matching packages only | 01:59 |
| Frye | This is sad, I would need to do an app for iPhone at work, but all I'm interested is my N9 and programming for it on my freetiem ;-) | 01:59 |
| Frye | And I would get paid for doing the iphone stuff | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-/ | 02:00 |
| Frye | Anyway time to set teh N9 next to my bed. Enjoy. | 02:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | (I feel with you) | 02:00 |
| * javispedro now has to code some crap in Java | 02:02 | |
| DocScrutinizer | eew | 02:02 |
| * T_UNIX has to continue to lern Scala, while he hates Java | 02:03 | |
| DocScrutinizer | well, at least you know it might survive for a few months - way longer than anything on meego did until now | 02:03 |
| javispedro | this reminds me that wp7 is also doomed | 02:03 |
| javispedro | as ms wants to eventually replace it with full Win32onARM | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, sure. ;-D why? | 02:04 |
| javispedro | yet noone mentions that.. | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | are you ging haloween spooky now? | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | going* | 02:05 |
| javispedro | no | 02:05 |
| ieatlint | wp7 may be replced with win8, but i think you can count on silverlight and xna staying around | 02:05 |
| javispedro | it is not happening before the next version, though. | 02:05 |
| javispedro | ieatlint: you could say the same about qt and look how happy devs are. | 02:05 |
| ieatlint | yeah, but nokia has never shown loyalty to its developers | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | aaaah, M$ has | 02:06 |
| javispedro | surely ( http://www.osnews.com/story/24846/Windows_8_HTML5_JS_Comment_Causes_Panic_Among_Developers ) | 02:06 |
| ieatlint | whereas microsoft has maintained backwards compatibility so much that i can still run some dos stuff on win7 | 02:06 |
| javispedro | not on any 64 bit version of win7. | 02:06 |
| ieatlint | fine, then as of vista | 02:06 |
| javispedro | not on any 64 bit version of vista either ;P | 02:06 |
| ieatlint | that's still 20 years of backwards compability | 02:07 |
| ieatlint | you sure? thought there was still the emu in place | 02:07 |
| special | 64bit windows can't run 16-bit applications | 02:07 |
| ieatlint | but the sentiment is still pretty clear, i'll bump up my example to win95 programs if you insist | 02:07 |
| javispedro | they have removed it on 64 bit versions because they decided it was "about time" | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | umm yeah, until "recently" (aka some 18..24 months back) Nokia also was great in maintaining a certain backwards compatibility | 02:07 |
| ieatlint | the point is that they have a history of maintaining backwards compatibility, and largely they are known for keeping their developers happy | 02:08 |
| javispedro | a reputation I think it's ill-deserved | 02:08 |
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| ieatlint | regardless, i'll bet on history and practicality before i believe the unsubstantiated rumour of abandoning silverlight | 02:09 |
| javispedro | s/it's/is :P | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | I bet on my stomach feeling instant nausea on mentioning of "silverlight" now and in 5 years, so perfect backward compatibility | 02:10 |
| ieatlint | soon the days of running native code on mobile devices will pass | 02:11 |
| ieatlint | all that's left, with exceptions, is apple and qt | 02:11 |
| javispedro | qt not much longer | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, soon all embedded devices will just run java apps, errr.... | 02:11 |
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| ieatlint | eh, symbian will be around a bit | 02:12 |
| ieatlint | meltemi maybe | 02:12 |
| special | Qt and Cocoa are both proof that you can have compelling modern frameworks with native code, though. | 02:12 |
| javispedro | in fact, with the very exception of Qt and QML, I think the trend was going back to native again | 02:12 |
| ieatlint | blame android? | 02:13 |
| javispedro | heh | 02:13 |
| javispedro | Google for some reason calls rewriting überslow Java class into native implementations "enabling the use of hardware acceleration" | 02:13 |
| javispedro | *classes | 02:13 |
| javispedro | but they are also busy doing it. | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't buy this platform independent nonsense. It never really worked and I don't see it work in the future. Rather you might ask what'S wrong in on time building of a native app for each device rather than making portable "binaries" that in RL nobody is ever actually porting | 02:14 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: now you sound like achipa suggesting a rewrite for each platform ;) | 02:15 |
| ieatlint | depends on the app | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, he for sure got a point there | 02:15 |
| ieatlint | i've written a couple apps that have been 95% identical across multiple platforms | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | though I not exactly suggested reWRITING but just reCOMPILING | 02:15 |
| special | there is much in common between the same software on different platforms, but it's a mistake to think that they can be identical, unless they're angry birds. | 02:15 |
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| ieatlint | well opengl-es does a decent enough job there | 02:17 |
| javispedro | plus, I think the fact that Apple, the one company that has changed instruction architectures in consumer devices quite a few times, does not use a VM is quite enlightening | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure | 02:19 |
| javispedro | companies that on the other side have never used more than two IAs on the other side go crazy on the thought of VMs. | 02:19 |
| javispedro | oops, forgive the RAS syndrome ;P | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | all this VM and JIT and P-code whatnot cruft is just an idea of escapist CS profs | 02:20 |
| wmarone_ | P-code... haven't heard that used outside of reference to Visual Basic | 02:21 |
| * wmarone_ shudders | 02:21 | |
| ieatlint | some of it has its place | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | th eidea of P-code is way older than VBA | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | VB | 02:21 |
| wmarone_ | no doubt | 02:21 |
| ieatlint | there's just something a bit weird at the thought of taking a relatively slow embedded device and adding in a VM that takes additional ram and cpu | 02:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 02:22 |
| * javispedro looks at a SunSpot on a nearby table | 02:22 | |
| ieatlint | ineffecient, but i think android has proven not impractical | 02:22 |
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| javispedro | android IMHO proved it impractical, because... they relented. | 02:23 |
| ieatlint | it's caused nokia to hurt a bit... the fast cpu competition has been spurred by android, trying make devices that can cope with it | 02:23 |
| javispedro | WP7 on the other side it's the one that seems not to have relented yet. | 02:23 |
| ieatlint | nokia devices may be "slower", but their performance is the better place to judge that | 02:23 |
| javispedro | I've checked a few binaries, even from EA games, and no hint of native code, they really do 3D games in C#. | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, toasting my sandwiches with a plasma cutter is also feasible in some way | 02:24 |
| ieatlint | javispedro: not necessarily | 02:24 |
| wmarone_ | javispedro: they're trying the Apple tack of controlling the hardware (just mostly, instead of completely) | 02:24 |
| ieatlint | the ie9 browser on it is written in c++ | 02:24 |
| ieatlint | and partners have access to write things in native code | 02:24 |
| javispedro | that's what I thought, but see above. | 02:24 |
| javispedro | at least for the sample set I had access to, it was really C#. | 02:25 |
| ieatlint | yeah, i'm surprised then that the well known games are c# | 02:25 |
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| javispedro | WP7 doesn't have OpenGLES, so I guess that if they have to rewrite the engine either way | 02:25 |
| javispedro | they might as well do it in C# with whatever money MS must be paying them =) | 02:25 |
| ieatlint | pretty much... the xna crap | 02:25 |
| ieatlint | however it does it, there must be real hardware accelertion in there | 02:26 |
| javispedro | that is probably the reason they support only Adreno | 02:27 |
| javispedro | assuming it really is older-ATI-hardware based, they probably had some D3D stuff they could blow the dust off | 02:27 |
| ieatlint | dunno, but i bet there will be a lot of lumia phone handouts | 02:28 |
| javispedro | (though, come to think of it, the MBX also had PocketD3D drivers) | 02:28 |
| javispedro | ieatlint: one for each member of the #n950club to begin with... as we're launchpaders... | 02:29 |
| ieatlint | that's unconfirmed... the offer for them was made before most of us became launchpad members | 02:29 |
| ieatlint | and hasn't necessarily been extended to us | 02:29 |
| javispedro | they basically completed stopped processing the launchpad incomers queue when the offer was made | 02:29 |
| javispedro | *completel | 02:30 |
| javispedro | *completely :( | 02:30 |
| ieatlint | yep | 02:30 |
| ieatlint | i signed up in february | 02:30 |
| ieatlint | got approved in march after pulling a favour | 02:30 |
| javispedro | me in january :(, not got approved until n950 | 02:30 |
| ieatlint | and after all that application process, you suddenly find there's nothing inside | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | a bottom line before I call it a day: it still seems to me like SW devels/industry is investing 10 $currency to allow savings on investments for porting things in the magnitude of 1 $currency, and the result is that you still don't have true portability, all the devels have to invest 50 $currency every year into learning a new uebercool new toolkit, and the apps get slow, buggy, and requiring each user to invest twice as much into the | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | faster fatter hardware than he needed for same apps to run better if only they were native | 02:31 |
| javispedro | but you get to charge $5 for the newest iteration of $SAME_STUFF_AS_YESTERDAY | 02:33 |
| javispedro | or $800.. | 02:33 |
| ieatlint | sounds like the movie industry... i've given up on buying star wars again | 02:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the portability approach makes sense (maybe) for android / winphone with closed source apps, as no company is going to develop a new slightly adapted version for the 538th new device that's coming with android OS. For FOSS however the whole idea is completely pointless | 02:50 |
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| Mek | hmm, great, if you run out of diskspace while installing packages (at least in scratchbox) aegis truncates it restok.conf file, making it impossible to install or remove any packages afterwards... | 04:02 |
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| Sazpaimon | what's the bpp of the N9, 16 or 32 | 04:48 |
| Sazpaimon | i think someone told me 16, wanted to make sure | 04:48 |
| ieatlint | pretty sure 16 | 04:52 |
| ieatlint | might be 24 though, i see conflicting statements | 04:53 |
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| npm_ | anybody know why a single app would end up displaying two identical icons in the app-chooser? | 05:21 |
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| npm | seems like when i updated to use an SVG icon, things broke and i can't figure out why my app shows two icons when installed, and no icons when uninstalled | 05:21 |
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| iekku | morning | 06:27 |
| berndhs | made a mistake again | 06:41 |
| berndhs | work on harmattan stuff after 11 at night, will give me bad dreams | 06:42 |
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| meegomy | how i download Real Golf 2011 into n950? | 06:43 |
| berndhs | get a golf club and some balls, use N950 for target ? | 06:44 |
| berndhs | its likely to cause some damage though, getting the balls inside the phone | 06:44 |
| Sazpaimon | ieatlint, if it's 24 bit, then lightspark and possibly gnash can be ported to it | 06:46 |
| meegomy | N9 has Real Golf 2011 pre-installed | 06:47 |
| iekku | berndhs, :D | 06:49 |
| berndhs | at least i have valgrind on the n950 now | 06:51 |
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| MohammadAGRX-51_ | so apparently they did lose my N950 | 11:34 |
| cityLights | WHAT? WHO? | 11:34 |
| cityLights | (hi mohammad , long time - no see) | 11:35 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | Israeli customs or post office | 11:35 |
| cityLights | WTF? | 11:35 |
| cityLights | can I help? | 11:35 |
| cityLights | I am going to ramle in afew hours | 11:35 |
| w00t | MohammadAGRX-51_: i think you need to move countries :P | 11:35 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | not sure anyone can | 11:35 |
| cityLights | I can pop by ben gurion | 11:35 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | they said they're looking for it | 11:35 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | which means it's gone | 11:35 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | Can I go there? | 11:36 |
| cityLights | is it in the post or customes? | 11:36 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | I didn't know the post office was a public part | 11:36 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | they said it was cleared out of customs | 11:36 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | but they also said it'll be delivered tomorrow | 11:36 |
| cityLights | so th post lost it | 11:36 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | well, been saying that since sunday | 11:37 |
| cityLights | BIG problem | 11:37 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | why? | 11:37 |
| cityLights | I didnt see your lines here | 11:37 |
| cityLights | sorry | 11:37 |
| cityLights | hmmm | 11:37 |
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| cityLights | may need to pull some strings in this case | 11:37 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | Can I argue with them at ben gurion | 11:37 |
| cityLights | do you have the tracking number? | 11:37 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | w00t, yeah... | 11:38 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | cityLights, yes, no updates since seekot | 11:38 |
| cityLights | if its passed customs - its not in ben gurion any longer | 11:38 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | tracking still says Clearance delay | 11:38 |
| cityLights | got a number? | 11:38 |
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| cityLights | I will some ppl to check for you | 11:38 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | waybill 6936258346 | 11:39 |
| cityLights | but I need a way to spot the package | 11:39 |
| cityLights | ok, I will see | 11:39 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | I can go to ben gurion | 11:39 |
| cityLights | this wont help you | 11:40 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | can I talk to customs there? | 11:40 |
| cityLights | yes you can | 11:40 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | hmm | 11:40 |
| cityLights | ok, I goinf back to work | 11:41 |
| cityLights | tell me if you need help | 11:41 |
| cityLights | they have a proceedure to find lost goods | 11:41 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | If it's lost I doubt ddp will send another one... | 11:41 |
| cityLights | they need a formal form to start investigating lost goods | 11:42 |
| cityLights | this is your mission | 11:42 |
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| faenil | Goodrmining! | 12:08 |
| faenil | oh yeah, mining | 12:08 |
| faenil | lol | 12:08 |
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| matrixx | codemining :) | 12:28 |
| iekku | saltmining! | 12:28 |
| iekku | slavery gets work done... | 12:29 |
| matrixx | :] | 12:29 |
| Anssi138 | ..and pyramids are useful | 12:29 |
| faenil | datamining to everyone! lol | 12:29 |
| faenil | someone says they were helped by aliens | 12:29 |
| faenil | because pyramids are too complex | 12:29 |
| Anssi138 | faenil, i saw that movie too ;) | 12:30 |
| faenil | I did not see that, a friend of mine told me :D | 12:30 |
| iekku | i think they just used subcontractors | 12:30 |
| Anssi138 | yep | 12:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | "We're not really sure exactly how they did this. So--aliens!" | 12:31 |
| RST38h | Cthulhu. | 12:31 |
| Anssi138 | they made pyramids and we do great software | 12:32 |
| faenil | :) | 12:32 |
| RST38h | Who does great software here> | 12:32 |
| RST38h | ? | 12:32 |
| iekku | o/ | 12:34 |
| faenil | o/ | 12:34 |
| RST38h | Ok, I guess the rest of us do the normal, usual shit. | 12:36 |
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| djszapi | ~seen wazd | 12:37 |
| infobot | wazd <~wazd@broadband-95-84-185-178.nationalcablenetworks.ru> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 7d 11h 55m 50s ago, saying: 'Milhouse: easter egg for geeks? :)'. | 12:37 |
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| Wirta | is there a way to force disable autolock? | 12:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAGRX-51_: inform DDP | 12:41 |
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| SpeedEvil | Wirta: place a bananna on the screen. | 12:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | keep them CC'd form beginning, and send a "protocol" of each phonecall you did to callee and to them | 12:43 |
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| Wirta | Thanks SpeedEvil | 12:50 |
| Wirta | had to also include a coconut for it work but that was the right direction | 12:50 |
| xarcass | Wirta: do you mean inside an app or system-wide? | 12:51 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | DocScrutinizer, Imma argue with DHL first | 12:52 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | I recall the local post office did the same with my first N900 | 12:53 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | after 4 hours of phone calls they "found" it | 12:53 |
| MohammadAGRX-51_ | seems like it's a standard answer for cba to look | 12:53 |
| Wirta | I have deleted all accounts (exchange) but it still doesn't allow me to disavle Device lock from settings -> Security -> Device lock | 12:53 |
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| MohammadAGRX-51_ | Can I sue for this btw? :P | 12:55 |
| xarcass | Wirta: alas, I know nothing about this kind of lock. i've thought that's about the usual lockscreen | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, but Nokia can | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | only if you keep them CC'd | 12:55 |
| deram | AFAIK devicelock can be disabled only with the code you have set | 12:56 |
| deram | might be disabled with reflash, but haven't tested | 12:56 |
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| Wirta | I know the code, and there should be an option in autolock delay settings to disable it fully. This option is no available when exchnage account is in use, but should appear again when exchange account is deleted | 12:57 |
| Wirta | For some weird reason this is not the case this time | 12:57 |
| xarcass | Wirta: If I were you, I would have written to the Nokia Care | 12:58 |
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| Wirta | I was just thinkig that maybe someone has managed to disable it trough terminal, there could be some file we can modify / hack | 13:00 |
| xarcass | Wirta: there are many mere mortals among N9 users so I suppose it makes sense to report the problem back to Nokia, because not all people are able to use terminal to solve such issues | 13:03 |
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| lardman | alterego: ping | 13:40 |
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| lardman | anyone know whether QCamera works on the N900? | 13:56 |
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| merlin1991 | ffs rekonq crashed the 2nd time trying to dl the harmattan setup py for scratchbox | 14:03 |
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| Arkenoi | if the phone does not appear on USB at all, is charging battery externally likely to help? | 14:08 |
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| omicron23 | Hi there! I want to start using qml on my new N9. Now I am wondering where I can get a qmlviewer for that device. Can you give me a hint? | 14:22 |
| faenil | you mean qmlviewer to run on N9 ? or qmlviewer for desktop ? | 14:23 |
| deram | if you create qml-appliation project in SDK, it creates the viewer binary for you automatically | 14:24 |
| omicron23 | the qmlviewer for N9.. | 14:24 |
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| omicron23 | deram: does the sdk create a standalone qmlviewer which I can then use to view any qml file? Or do you mean it creates an application that has the viewer inside? (like a QApplication containing a QDeclarativeView) | 14:27 |
| faenil | that could be a way | 14:27 |
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| deram | omicron23: it creates QApplication with QApplicationDeclarativeViewer in it hardcoded... | 14:30 |
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| deram | omicron23: it creates QApplication with QApplicationDeclarativeViewer in it hardcoded... | 14:31 |
| deram | the paths to the qml are set there, so it is not universal viewer, but one for just that project | 14:31 |
| omicron23 | deram: Alright, so then I think I will create my own qmlviewer ;-) should be straight forward | 14:32 |
| faenil | sure | 14:34 |
| deram | I think this type of launcher is used for getting things running the same way in simulator, emulator and real device... also there are references to symbian | 14:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~seen konttori | 14:57 |
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| infobot | konttori <~konttori@net-57.nrpn.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 150d 4h 23m 57s ago, saying: 'genius6'. | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~seen konttori_work | 14:57 |
| infobot | konttori_work <~anonymous@net-14.nrpn.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 56d 3h 29m 53s ago, saying: 'morning'. | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~seen konttori_home | 14:57 |
| infobot | konttori_home <~konttori@85-156-146-239.elisa-mobile.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 117d 14h 25m 44s ago, saying: 'ok, font went in now. Time to go to bed! Night all!'. | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~seen qgil | 14:58 |
| infobot | qgil <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.106.40> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 29d 13h 12m 12s ago, saying: 'ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!'. | 14:58 |
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| RST38h | ~seen cthulhu | 15:03 |
| infobot | RST38h: i haven't seen 'cthulhu' | 15:03 |
| RST38h | hm | 15:03 |
| M4rtinK | that's a good sign :) | 15:03 |
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| jabis | ~seen DocScrutinizer_naked | 15:07 |
| infobot | jabis: i haven't seen 'docscrutinizer_naked' | 15:07 |
| jabis | a good sign too -.- | 15:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's just because DocScrutinizer_naked is way too big ;-P | 15:08 |
| clbr | is there irc-videochat now? | 15:08 |
| jabis | I hope not - since I'm wearing nothing but a bathrobe, and my N9 is hooked up as webcam x) | 15:09 |
| * SpeedEvil wants usb-gadget-webcam mode. | 15:10 | |
| clbr | jabis: fortunately N9 does not have flash | 15:10 |
| jabis | yeh -.- | 15:11 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 15:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Boneheaded decision | 15:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Probably not so much a decision as 'we can't spare the people' | 15:11 |
| deram | flash is dead | 15:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Bullshit. | 15:11 |
| clbr | we would need a video url extractor | 15:12 |
| SpeedEvil | there re still many, many sites you absolutely need flash to use. | 15:12 |
| deram | put flashblock to firefox and see how much it is used besize those pesky ads | 15:12 |
| SpeedEvil | And not video playback sites. | 15:12 |
| SpeedEvil | For example, sites constructed around flash interfaces. | 15:12 |
| jabis | I've used flash only to rid some javascript security-drawbacks, with file uploads and stuff | 15:12 |
| clbr | sorry, didn't want to start this discussion ;-) I was only thinking of the camera-spy-flaw patched some days ago | 15:14 |
| clbr | i guess there a at least as many flash-needing websites as the ones you need the pointer mode available on the n900 | 15:14 |
| clbr | openstreetmap.org e.g. | 15:15 |
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| jabis | does N9 have java-support in the browser btw - wondering can our chairman of the board access the company bank account (Sampo Bank - uses java-applets for auth) | 15:17 |
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| SpeedEvil | jabis: url? | 15:18 |
| jabis | SpeedEvil, https://verkkopankki.sampopankki.fi/html/index.html?site=SBNBFI&secsystem=E2 | 15:19 |
| SpeedEvil | ah - nvm - I can't type that on the vkbd. :) | 15:19 |
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| clbr | oh, didn't know das http://openstreetmap.org/ does work on the N9, nice! but http://opencyclemap.org/ doesn't | 15:22 |
| jabis | lol installing java failed on teh desktop x) | 15:23 |
| Arkenoi | RST38h: any idea if charging battery might help? | 15:28 |
| cos^ | where are the flashers for N9? google fails to find them.. | 15:28 |
| cos^ | i can only find the ocf for N950 | 15:28 |
| Summeli | jabis: just use the mobile version of the netbank | 15:29 |
| Summeli | mobiili.sampopankki.fi | 15:30 |
| jabis | Summeli: I don't need to use it, but our chairman of the board - who's really not even remotely a tech person, so I'll prolly need to create 'em bookmarks for her | 15:31 |
| Summeli | it's even paint to get sampopankki's java working on desktop linux | 15:32 |
| Summeli | pain even | 15:32 |
| Summeli | I wouldn't bother with N9 :) | 15:32 |
| jabis | SpeedEvil: http://bit.ly/t0YNIl shortened version | 15:34 |
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| SpeedEvil | I get a box saying something about java. | 16:00 |
| SpeedEvil | (on n950, I believe the browser is identical) | 16:00 |
| SpeedEvil | jabis: Can you pm me your username and password, so I can properly test? :) | 16:02 |
| jabis | Ladataan java <- loading java which it never loads so no go | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | More seriously. | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | It gives the same result on a desktop if I disable java | 16:02 |
| jabis | I won't give our company bank account passwords to you for testing :D | 16:02 |
| jabis | lol | 16:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | JAVA?? | 16:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, a site that neds java to work is either a very nifty site (e.g. http://www.heise.de/netze/artikel/Netalyzr-1045926.html?artikelseite=3) or - usually - just braindamaged | 16:12 |
| jabis | well the latter suits for an online banking software selection | 16:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | definitely | 16:13 |
| jabis | they lost like 40000 customers upon going live with that selection, because the system didn't work x) | 16:14 |
| kimju | just forget the sampo banks java in non x86 environments. it contains native code libraries for x86 and x86/64. and that native code reads for example your mac-address, serial numbers of your harddrives etc and transmit them to the bank. | 16:15 |
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| jabis | yeh I remembered _something_ like that back when we had some linux powered desktops around the office | 16:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 16:51 |
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| diorahman | is the 39-5 really helps to unbrick any bricked N950? | 17:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, yes. Depending on what you did to "brick" it | 17:55 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: Unfortunately, I just got it from Nokia and it's bricked :-( I could see I couldn't upgrade it to 34-2; I think I need the previous one? | 17:57 |
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| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: ERROR: Failed to erase MMC using 'secure' method | 17:58 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: but the 22-6 I guess, is nowhere available | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | it is | 17:58 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: should I bet on 39-5? | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd try it, sure | 17:59 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: ok, downloading it right now, otherwise I should find a nice little box to run linux, since the flasher available on Linux only | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | unless you definitely don't want to upgrade to most recent PR, and think you could get the device working with 22-6 or 34-2 | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | uh, no clue about flashing from a windoze box | 18:01 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: could you point out where I can get 22-6? do you have any clues? I'm on mac :-( | 18:02 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: I really screwed when I accidentally erased it from my disk :-( | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah on mac. Well I know about linux 22-6, not mac, not win | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry | 18:03 |
| diorahman | yeah, I wish I could quickly get linux bos | 18:04 |
| diorahman | *box | 18:04 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: BTW, do I really need to upgrade it sequentially? beta-1, beta-2 and this? | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | don't think so | 18:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | at least for flashing it should work with Linux_OCF_39-5_RM680-RM680-OEM1.bin right away | 18:09 |
| rafael2k | people, is the workaroud to load a patched kernel in order to "open" the system working? | 18:10 |
| berndhs | the OCF_39-5 seems to have the same problem on Fedora 15 as the previous one | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | you don't even need a "patched" kernel - loading an unsigned original kernel will make the device enter open-mode | 18:11 |
| rafael2k | great | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, depends | 18:12 |
| rafael2k | any downsides of using a unsigned kernel? | 18:12 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: well, it seems doesn't work for me at flashing stage on Mac | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, HARM userland will blow chunks on several subsystems relying on aegis | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | diorahman: sorry to hear that | 18:13 |
| rafael2k | how annoying.. | 18:13 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: Hahaha, thank you -- how difficult to get a working linux box | 18:14 |
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| npm | heh... a billion dollar prostitute?? http://www.techhog.com/featured/did-nokia-knowingly-name-their-new-windows-phone-lumia-after-a-prostitute/ | 18:15 |
| diorahman | DocScrutinizer: dont you think it is the device which has the problem? | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, probably not | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | flashing problems are 99% caused by PC/system or cable/cabling | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | generic advice regarding flashing applies | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~flash | 18:17 |
| infobot | methinks maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | I.E get rid of conflicting drivers, use no hub, good cable, right USB port... | 18:18 |
| npm | has anybody tried flashing from MeeGo 1.2 netbook ? (which is where i usually plug in the n950) | 18:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | fsckng blog, doesn't let me post comments - oh well. Anyway, the name just fits for Nokia's first MS phone, no? | 18:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and after all they are pretty much in good company with Pachero (Ford?) and Moko (Openmoko) | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | pajero? | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | finding a good international name is FSCKNG expensive | 18:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Sony shelled out several mio $, and just one country (korea or sth) caused it to become Sony and not Sonny | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | some Nokia sub-departments even have a record for picking such names: NOLO, FIASCO | 18:35 |
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| SpeedEvil | Oh come off it. | 18:41 |
| SpeedEvil | FIASCO has to be knowing. | 18:41 |
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| rafael2k | people, have you realized that N950 uses compressed swap in ram | 19:33 |
| rafael2k | 256M of "compressed swap" | 19:33 |
| rafael2k | very clever in order to workaroud low ram | 19:34 |
| SpeedEvil | Yes. | 19:34 |
| SpeedEvil | I was using it back in 1997? | 19:34 |
| berndhs | so you take 1/4 of your RAM to compensate for not having much RAM ? | 19:35 |
| rafael2k | gzip /dev/ram | 19:35 |
| rafael2k | :P | 19:35 |
| rafael2k | if I remember correctly, it adds a new layer that (de)compresses the ram blocks before storing/reading them | 19:36 |
| rafael2k | btw, can you people point me where to get a kernel that "opens" my N950? | 19:37 |
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| SpeedEvil | If you do that, large chunks of harmattan stop working | 19:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Aegisfs goes read-only. | 19:40 |
| faenil | heya :) | 19:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and aiui the source for most recent kernel got not released yet? | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | (if it differs at all from the prev version available) | 19:41 |
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| faenil | is there a way to enable landscape in n950? | 19:42 |
| faenil | not only in screensaver | 19:42 |
| faenil | and which works on 39-5 :D | 19:42 |
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| rafael2k | SpeedEvil: but simple things like phone calls, messaging, irssi are affected by the lack of aegis? | 19:47 |
| SpeedEvil | As I understand it it superficially works. | 19:47 |
| SpeedEvil | But, for example, call logs and incoming messages don't/aren't stored. | 19:47 |
| rafael2k | fuck | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 19:48 |
| rafael2k | well, so the tactic is, boot "open" kernel, change what I want, rebook using stock nokia kernel... | 19:49 |
| SpeedEvil | I need to properly understand the system to see how it might be possible to get round that. | 19:49 |
| rafael2k | s/rebook/reboot | 19:49 |
| SpeedEvil | Changing stuff without providing the right signature for the altered thing will mean when it goes to run it, it has the wrong signature. | 19:49 |
| rafael2k | this night I;ll play with this issue | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | as I put it yesterday: you can't get open mode in HARM, you just can "switch to another OS" - if only by loading a non-signed kernel, and then watch HARM userland fall apart | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | rafael2k: changing "what you want" may and will cause HARM/aegis to MALF next time you boot to normal mode | 19:51 |
| * SpeedEvil saw MALF on n900. | 19:51 | |
| SpeedEvil | stop dsme | 19:51 |
| rafael2k | DocScrutinizer: I'm starting to understand how deep the problem is | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | and as aiui aegis is checking hashes based on inode, you basically have no chance other than reflashing to restore things to a working state | 19:53 |
| flux | if 'open' mode doesn't work, is there a mode in which aegis works, but you have access to a shell that has access to everything? | 19:54 |
| SpeedEvil | Only if you have the appropriate keys from nokia. | 19:55 |
| SpeedEvil | (which you can't get) | 19:55 |
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| flux | hmm, I would expect an aegis-enabled kernel is a subset of open kernel, that is, only stuff that depends on being signed by Nokia dosen't work? (things such as perhaps encrypted (?) nokia store credential stroage) | 19:56 |
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| flux | so, one should be able to provide new keys and sign everything with those etc | 19:56 |
| jabis | even the nokia store tokens haven't got all credentials ;) | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, as the keys are stored in a TPM (special storage area aka Fritz Chip) that gets irreversibly shut down on entering open mode, and e.g "crypted" or signed fs (aegisfs) can't get unlocked with a new key when it got secured with a Nokia key that's not available now | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | which means you need to implement the whole stuff in a way that'S not linked to TPM but rather to some emu of it, then build all the fs images etc with your own new keys that you store to the TPM emu | 20:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | then still you may run into nokia binaries that aren't just hash-signed but actually encrypted and thus won't ever run on your fake system | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are no such crypted Nokia binaries known... yet? | 20:02 |
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| flux | docscrutinizer, does the flasher erase TPM? | 20:02 |
| flux | or rewrite | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | nope | 20:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | unless you do that --cert-write thing that's notorious to *permanently* brick your device | 20:03 |
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| * khertan should probably forget his try to do a source code editor in qml for Harmattan, and recompile vim with python support ... | 20:04 | |
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| rafael2k | lwn.net/Articles/373780/ | 20:12 |
| rafael2k | <- very interesting article | 20:12 |
| rafael2k | and one comment I found very interesting: "this is not my beautiful house" | 20:12 |
| khertan | Any javascript expert in the room ? | 20:16 |
| khertan | i m trying to understant why virtual keyboard didn't open on some editable text | 20:16 |
| khertan | in webkit | 20:16 |
| khertan | and while it s working with a n950 and his hardware keyboard, it ll be pretty useless for n9 users :) | 20:17 |
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| rzr | http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support | 20:18 |
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| ab | DocScrutinizer, one can copy content of aegisfs mounted partitions. Next time they simply might not be mounted and yet everything will continue working if your kernel parts are responding properly to aegis requests. aegisfs is a separate story than aegis verifier | 20:41 |
| ab | also, accounts store is not really connected with aegisfs, it is LUKS encrypted with device lock-based master key and SIM card-derived keys that should work even with aegis missing. | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's exactly one way to get a really "cracked" and open and working HARM: find a liberal xloader that has a signature which allows it to get loaded by bootloader. This liberal xloader may in turn load end execute a hacked NOLO which in turn would load and execute patched kernels, without any of the three ever shutting down TPM. If there is any such xloader out there (maybe N900's?) then Nokia platsec *lost* the game and nothing they | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | could "fix", if not (very likely) then there's simply no way to ever get a full working HARM system with user in 100% control of things | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/bootloader/ROM-bl/ | 20:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | of course there's a egg this chicken came from: the signing app with proper sec-key to sign xloader (or NOLO, or kernel, or...) with a proper signature matching the "pub-key" in TPM | 21:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | jacekowski would know more about the details, I for one think *nobody* can change the root cert burnt to the OMAP and used for verifying the xloader | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably TI does this for Nokia, and I'm just wondering if the pubkey went from Nokia to TI, or the secret key went from TI to Nokia | 21:14 |
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| ab | DocScrutinizer, you mean, M-Shield with Nokia's BB5 as an E-Fuse? | 21:28 |
| ab | Motorola does similar with Droid X. Of course, their E-Fuse is their own. | 21:30 |
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| RST38h | "Halbherr also revealed that he's been pushing Microsoft to integrate NFC and a "positioning framework" to make its mobile OS work better with Nokia's Navteq mapping platform and thereby provide new location-based services." | 21:33 |
| RST38h | wp7 has no nfc and positioning support? =) | 21:34 |
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| DanielW | hi | 21:50 |
| DanielW | if i am able to spend some (not weeks) time on it and am a software developer, what would be the quickest way to have a working icq client on my nokia n9? | 21:51 |
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| frals | check for telepathy-haze, use mc-tool to add icq account and chat away? | 21:52 |
| DanielW | there is already telepathy-haze for harmattan? | 21:53 |
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| frals | dunno | 21:56 |
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| frals | seems not, so you would have to compile it | 21:58 |
| DanielW | it's based on libpurple which doesn't exist either | 22:00 |
| DanielW | and libpurple has a lot of dependencies. | 22:02 |
| DanielW | but most of them might be optional | 22:02 |
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| DanielW | i read there were plans for a community repository. where can i read details about those plans? | 22:05 |
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| dm8tbr | DanielW: it's apps.formeego.org the deployment starts soon | 22:08 |
| dm8tbr | DanielW: the fastest way for icq would be to get an xmpp (aka jabber) account and use an ICQ gateway | 22:09 |
| dm8tbr | works great for me | 22:09 |
| DanielW | well i currently don't know of a public xmpp provider with working icq gateway. i suppose i can set one up for myself somewhere | 22:10 |
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| dm8tbr | there isn't? I thought there were a few with icq-transports? | 22:11 |
| dm8tbr | (I'm running my own) | 22:11 |
| DanielW | well i believe they all get problems when they have lots of icq users | 22:11 |
| dm8tbr | but yeah, I'd expect plugging telepathy-haze in there shouldn't be too hard | 22:12 |
| dm8tbr | bonus points for doing it on COBS :) | 22:13 |
| DanielW | COBS? | 22:13 |
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| DanielW | on my n900 i didn't use icq integrated in the normal messaging because it didn't support writing notifications. so i went for pidgin, it was very nice on the n900. a windows for every parallel chat and in the taskswitcher i got a quick overview about who is typing or has something posted. the gtk gui of pidgin wouldn't work very well on the n9 though | 22:17 |
| dm8tbr | community OBS | 22:18 |
| dm8tbr | it's also the backend for the community apps service | 22:18 |
| DanielW | i see. will there be some integration between the cobs and the free repo? | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | ab: sorry, I already mentioned jacekowski is the expert. I only know the SoC has a pubkey to hash-verify the xloader. The xloader in turn loads the NOLO 2nd-stage bootloader. N9(50) NOLO first refused to load any non-signed kernel, and now (recent version) tears down the security system aka TPM in SoC when kernel is not correctly signed but still loads and executes it. You can't patch OLO to keep TPM alive as then xloader won't load | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | NOLO, and you can't patch xloader as then ROM-bl will blow chunks (or tear down TPM, dunno) | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | ab: this is a TI OMAP thing completely unrelated to BB5 | 22:19 |
| ab | DocScrutinizer, as I understood, M-Shield relies on OEM-provided chip that stores the keys and in Nokia case this is provided by BB5 system | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's been there in N900 as well, just N900/fremantle xloader didn't care about NOLO signature, or properly shut down TPM then chainloaded the evidently unsigned fremantle-NOLO | 22:20 |
| ab | DocScrutinizer, yes | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | M-Shield is a function *inside* OMAP SoC | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | for all I understood so far | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | ab has it right, AFAIK | 22:21 |
| dm8tbr | DanielW: that's what I'm saying, you'll be able to put your app from COBS into the community 'app store' | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | ask jacekowski | 22:22 |
| DanielW | dm8tbr: so there are also plans for a gui package manager for that repo? | 22:23 |
| dm8tbr | DanielW: AFAIK it already exists, haven't tried it though | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | all I know is there's a secure and a non-secure variant of OMAP3xx0 - the secure one is supposed to have TPM | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the signing thing is even mentioned on OMAPwiki iirc | 22:24 |
| ab | true, this always was a case since OMAP2 | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | the alien xloader "hack" was how they cracked milestone(?) | 22:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and I even seem to recall details about implementation of signature checking into BOOTROM being mentioned in the OMAP User MAnual | 22:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | allegedly there's even example code how to hash xloader, to build your signing tool | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | all this doesn't match well with M-Shield being sth implemented via BB5 | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | but - as mentioned - ask somebody who got a bit of a clue of it all, ask jacekowski | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | without him I wouldn't even know about existence of xloader | 22:30 |
| ab | DocScrutinizer, bb5 has more features than M-Shield provides, but in this specific context all M-Shield does when interacting with bb5 is to fetch public keys from a bb5 subsystem that serves as an E-Fuse to M-Shield internally. That's my understanding. There are more things in bb5, of course. | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | (probably ;-D ) | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | I got nfc what's an E-Fuse | 22:32 |
| ab | http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/ti_mshield_whitepaper.pdf | 22:33 |
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| dm8tbr | DocScrutinizer: http://omappedia.org/wiki/Bootloader_Project#Building_Xloader_for_EMU | 22:34 |
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| dm8tbr | EMU is HS with 'known' key for use in EVMs like blaze or zoom | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | dm8tbr: thanks, that's what I was referring to | 22:36 |
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| dm8tbr | I'd expect most HS related tools to be NDA though | 22:37 |
| dm8tbr | http://omappedia.org/images/5/50/OMAP_Security.pdf | 22:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | actually most are not, it seems. It's not a security-by-obscurity concept, rather they even use u-boot, and as mentioned before I think ROM-BL is well documented by TI as well, it's just you have no chance to intercept/fake the root cert anywhere, and correctly inplemented the chain of trust ensures you're running a non-tampered system | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | or got no more access to the root cert as the component breaking chain of trust is supposed to shut down the TPM | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | but I know one basic thing for sure: xloader is responsible to initialize very basic things as e.g. RAM, so there's no way ROM-BL would access BB5 to fetch any sort of verification token for xloader. No, this cert is inside SoC | 22:54 |
| dm8tbr | yes | 22:55 |
| dm8tbr | rom-bl is _very_ basic | 22:55 |
| dm8tbr | I'd expect the fancy stuff to hapen somewhere in the later (trusted) stage | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | NOLO | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | N950 NOLO for sure is accessing BB5 | 22:57 |
| dm8tbr | that's after X-loader/MLO, right? | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can tell by the semi-certified fact that firmware revision is stored in BB5, so you can't downgrade | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, xloader loads NOLO/2nd-stage | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | ROM-bl(0th stage) -> xloader/1st-stage -> NOLO/2nd-stage -> kernel | 22:59 |
| dm8tbr | btw: IIRC xloader is also quite size constrained. I think it needs to fit in the CPU SRAM | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | each one sign-checks the next one on loading it | 22:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Teehee http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/apple_slide_to_unlock.jpg | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, some 64k max size for xloader | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | iirc | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | or was it 16k ? | 23:00 |
| dm8tbr | I remebered 32 :) | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | sth like that | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | your (user's) only chance to repossess your own hardware is to find a xloader that has proper matching hash, and loads arbitrary 2nd-stage without tearing down the TPM | 23:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | (at least if you still want to run a HARM system in normal mode) | 23:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, you *might* get away with a cracked NOLO as well, as flashing gets controlled by NOLO and so you could hack NOLO to forbid flashing of a new "fixed" xloader | 23:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway, you can't get/do either, as you'Re missing the seckey to sign any of both | 23:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | either catburglar Elop's apartment and lift the seckey, or find a liberal xloader that "by any strange luck" has a matching signature so it loads and runs on N950 | 23:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | NB Nokia could publish such a liberal xloader any time, as there's no threat to *user's* security at all involved in it. As it needs explicit user action caled "flashing" to install a new xloader | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | no rogue app, however nifty, could sneak in and take over the system by installing that liberal xloader | 23:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | 100% protect system from user, not protect user from threats | 23:11 |
| clbr | it's more about the music industry's bits in your filesystem | 23:11 |
| Stskeeps | except there's no drm | 23:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there is some form of DRM, it's called "Nokia account" | 23:16 |
| clbr | is there a law in europe (finland) prohibiting to sell communications devices with back doors, btw? | 23:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | nope, except allegedly content providers and carriers mandating such a security framework | 23:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so one slavery creates the next one | 23:18 |
| clbr | maybe it's something like the n9seconds puzzle for geeks. "nokia" spelled backwards as the signing key, haha | 23:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | intil finally with HD+ you can't fast-forward in your recorded HDTV any more | 23:19 |
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| jesuschrist | hi | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | either you go for it and accept you're seeling your attention and virtually any other right you might once have had to those making money on you, or you refuse to use those devices | 23:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | selling* | 23:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | >>Your mind is totally controlled, it has been stuffed into my mold and you will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold.<< (FZ, I'm the slime) | 23:23 |
| DanielW | dm8tbr: i got an xmpp account with icq transport. i added it with mc-tool but i can not connect :-( | 23:24 |
| dm8tbr | DanielW: sorry to hear, might be e.g. a connection issue due to tls or so | 23:25 |
| dm8tbr | if you have developer mode on you should be able to get to the syslog IIRC | 23:25 |
| xavir | hi. is there some sort of barcode and/or qr scanner app with price check available for the n9? | 23:27 |
| DanielW | dm8tbr: played arround with the settings and got it working. would be nice if it could show user names and not just icq uins | 23:29 |
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| *** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "A place for harmattan device and development discussions |NEW flasher to "unbrick": http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/release/N950-39-5/ | Developers check this: http://library.developer.nokia.com/ | http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page | logs: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | UPGRADES: http://bit.ly/rffn73. | Customers help customers on #N9, hurry and you're the senior member" | 23:33 | |
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