IRC log of #harmattan for Saturday, 2011-10-01

lardmanqml gurus, I guess it's possible to change an Image element's source property at runtime and it will automatically load the new image?00:00
Stskeepsspecial: have you ever played with weird stuff like LLVM?00:00
specialStskeeps: not directly. Why?00:00
Stskeepsspecial: i have a crazy idea..00:01
lardmancool, thanks00:01
* lardman must now work out what he's done to prevent that happening00:01
specialwith LLVM, hmm..00:01
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ajalkaneToo bad LLVM can not be used to have a kind efficient VM for CPU agnostic C/C++ code.00:19
ajalkaneAbout Tizen and HTML5 the only thing that makes sense to me is that the exact same program will run on ARM and Intel CPUs.00:20
SpeedEvilWhich is awesome, because it avoids the writer having to recompile it twice.00:21
ajalkanehehe... well, I think in practice devs are a lazy bunch of people. So N-amount of CPU architectures in practice means fragmentation if it's up to the devs to do cross-compiling.00:22
berndhsmost user-level applications are completely unaware of what CPU they run on00:22
ajalkaneSure they are, but most SDKs compile to specific CPU architecture. Of course if the SDK compiles and packages at the same time for all relevant architectures the problem is gone. But I guess that's not realistic, even though Apple I think has something like that00:24
berndhsI don't think there is a good way of making a single package for all ARM versions00:25
berndhswhat Apple does is just ship a bunch of copies in the same file00:25
ajalkaneAh, the different ARM versions... I'm only vaguely aware that there might be problems between ARM architectures.00:26
berndhsARM gives you the benefit of a wide variety of CPUs00:27
ajalkaneAnyway, it can get hairy quickly, so that's the part I understand about going with HTML5.00:28
ajalkaneEspecially I understand Intel pushing HTML5. ARM is the dominant mobile architecture at the moment, but if the apps are done in HTML5 it's a non-issue to change to x86 when they're mature enough00:29
wmaroneor whenever Intel gets their power consumption down to the point that it's viable in a handset00:30
* SpeedEvil looks at his intel mobile device that gets 12h battery life when on.00:31
SpeedEvil(386ex, Garmin GPS12)00:31
ajalkaneI'm kind of divided on this whole native/VM/interpreted code on handsets. On one hand I think it's foolish to waste energy on running VM on handsets. On the other hand is that doing it that way gives platform agnosticism00:32
berndhspeople in the high-tech industries at the leading edge are very adverse to change00:32
berndhsonce they find one way of doing things, they tend to stick with it00:32
berndhsI find that strange00:32
ajalkaneTo make it even more puzzling, harmattan is "native", yet if you use QML you pretty much go into the interpreted power wasting territory, yet get none of the portability advantages.00:32
SpeedEvilWell - there is increasing abstraction from hardware, whihc is indeed almost as bad as VMs00:33
leinirajalkane: so... are you doing any business logic in your qml?00:33
leinirbecause then you're doing it wrong ;)00:33
leinir(no matter what the marketing drones will tell you)00:33
berndhsI made a few applications in Qt/QML, they run find on my x86_64 fedora machine and on a N950-harmattan00:33
berndhsso I don't know what the big deal is with the architecture00:34
ajalkaneleinir: no I'm not doing any business logic, but most mobile software are dead stupid (IMO) on business logic.00:34
ajalkaneI mean, I do as little as possible in QML00:34
ajalkaneyet if I'd profile the app I'd be surprised if in normal usage the QML part wasn't using the most power.00:35
ajalkaneOf course this is highly application specific.00:35
leinirSo.. have you actually profiled it?00:35
* TSCHAKeee walks away from this conversation. another asshole talking out of his...ass...00:35
leinirOr are you, in fact, just ranting aimlessly ;)00:36
SpeedEvilThen there is the fun part of GPU accellerated shininess.00:36
SpeedEvilIf your app needs to refresh the screen while it's asleep - the power goes way up, as you drop to sftware.00:36
ajalkaneNo I haven't. But since at the moment the app just wakes up once in a while to do calculations, it's not going to spend much time in C++. The UI part where user does stuff should be more demanding. Just guess work, so maybe I'm worrying about nothing.00:37
ajalkaneHaha, basically yes I'm ranting aimlessly. Or more accurately, voicing my worries that might have no real basis. publicly.00:37
leinirGood, good, just so we know where we stand *giggles* :)00:38
TSCHAKeeethe Qt engineers have been doing ridiculous amounts of work making QML faster and faster with each iteration.00:38
MohammadAGdoesn't change the fact it's interpretted00:39
MohammadAG13.6MBs of RAM for an IRC app is a lot00:40
TSCHAKeeethat's okay for some parts of software. So far, we've been able to keep our QML extremely fast00:40
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TSCHAKeeeMohammadAG: and how much java app development have you done? ;)00:40
MohammadAGeven at startup?00:41
MohammadAGI only do C/C++00:41
ajalkaneI'm just playing devil's advocate here, and raising my own suspicions here... but I don't see what's the difference between QML and JavaScript? I don't mean in programming efficiency, but in power consumption etc.00:41
ajalkaneThere's been much work making JS more efficient, just like QML00:42
Stskeepsajalkane: qml uses javascript00:42
ajalkaneIf I dislike using JS as main API on mobiles because it's interpreted and inefficient, why am I not doing the same with using QML?00:42
TSCHAKeeeyou mean, that other than the fact that QML is...a declarative list of properties....JavaScript is an imperative scripting language?00:42
ajalkaneI know Stskeeps00:42
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Stskeepsi guess it's DOM vs QML rather00:43
ajalkaneTSCHAKeee: that's true. I can't claim to know what are the real tradeoffs with QML. But I do know that QML based apps start MUCH slower than MTF based, and use much more memory.00:44
ajalkaneStskeeps: good point00:45
StskeepsDOM has to support a lot of old shit, qml doesn't have to00:45
ajalkaneYeah. I do like QML. Never liked DOM :).00:46
Stskeepsand i guess qml might be made with eventual scenegraph in mind00:47
berndhsif they would just compile the QML, its static anyway for most cases00:47
ajalkaneI hope, and believe, that there's still much that can be optimized in QML.00:49
berndhsmy impression is that 4.8 is a lot faster than 4.7 on the same machine00:49
ajalkaneNice. On N950 I have no qualms about the speed of QML based apps. But the starting time of them is irritating. If that can be improved, great.00:50
lardmanhmm, is one not supposed to use the Label component?: The Label component is used to display textual information throughout the UI. The Label is a private component and not intended for 3rd party developers.00:54
ajalkanelardman: documentation mistake. Ignore it.00:54
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Stskeepslardman: so what do people typically code DSP with? C?01:05
Stskeepsor how does it look01:05
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SpeedEvilC can be used, in some cases01:09
Stskeepsbut i guess there's no typical standard for it01:09
Stskeepslike common dsp functions01:10
SpeedEvilAs far as I'm aware no, but it's really not an area I've been involved with01:10
lardmanStskeeps: yeah01:15
lardmanC or ASM, or probably C then ASM optimisations01:15
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lardmanDSP functions, on the Ti stuff at least are either macros that wrap asm calls or calls into a library provided with the chip01:16
lardmane.g. calls to do jpeg operations and the like which are pretty standard01:16
lardmanStskeeps: why do you ask?01:18
Stskeepslardman: just crazy ideas01:18
Stskeepsnoticed llvm had a potential c64x backend01:18
lardmanIn fact you'll probably find that people code with MATLAB, then use the realtime target to generate asm for the chip01:19
lardmanoh right, interesting01:19
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lardmanI feel like I might just about have tamed the mBarcode-lite QML interface01:32
lardmannote the "just about" ;)01:34
alteregolardman: have you seen my barcode reader qml plugin.01:34
lardmanno I've not, where does one find it?01:34
lardmanand what backend do you use?01:35
lardmanzbarcode, hmm, I guess that's new?01:35
Stskeepsdon't you mean zbar? :P01:36
alteregoSorry, zbar ..01:36
lardmanah ok01:36
lardmanZXing is pretty good01:36
alteregoAaaany way, I really am going now :P01:36
lardmanI'll push the library and source somewhere01:36
lardmancu alterego01:37
Stskeeps(i suppose)01:37
alteregoThat reminds me, I really need to push the update to that :x01:37
Stskeepsget some sleep before your gf kills you01:37
alteregogood plan.01:38
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lardmanStskeeps: so does Project-Grande have a test application?01:45
Stskeepslardman: working our way there, some things to be done :)01:46
* lardman wonders to himself why ZXing doesn't want to decode datamatrix barcodes01:46
lardmanStskeeps: cool, I look forward to seeing it01:46
Stskeepsat least declarative barcode plugin has examples01:46
lardmanyep I spotted that, looks good01:46
lardmanthoough ZBar doesn't support datamatrix, which is a problem potentially01:47
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* lardman also calls it quits for the night01:50
lardmancatch you all tomorrow01:50
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TSCHAKeeehas anyone found a vendor in the US that has the N9?02:52
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ieatlintjust go to your closest nokia office and beg/threaten03:43
ieatlintworked for me03:43
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rm_youRST38h: moo05:44
npmStskeeps: DSP in C  using functional programming:
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sivangmorning all10:05
sivanghey Stskeeps10:06
sivangI'm interested to know how the ssh root@localhost provides "real" root ? (nice thing about it one can do it on the device itself)10:06
Stskeepsprobably not, less privileges10:07
sivangStskeeps: right, not a problem, but much better than devel-su / develsh et al10:07
sivangStskeeps: reboot can only be issued from ssh10:07
sivangStskeeps: trying to understand the difference in ENV10:07
sivangalso, the deelsh seems to not be trusted even though it comes from Nokia sources10:07
sivangwhich breaks my whole upgrade, anyone an idea to solve this?10:08
sivange.g. I tried it from the device itself, and I can see the package is downloaded from * but is rejected as being untrusted, I could wait for it to be fixed by Nokia but I was wondering if there was something quick to overcome this10:10
* sivang thinks about the releaxed exec maybe10:10
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sivangseif ? that I met in Desktop Summit? :)10:16
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MohammadAGyou can reboot from on device...10:29
MohammadAGit's just that /sbin/reboot is not in $PATH10:29
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lardmanI had a look at your grande code, what are your plans re. state detection? (I'll check the nomenclature)11:18
Stskeepslet's take that in #grande11:19
lardmanah ok11:19
* lardman wonders how to debug QML ListViews and models11:21
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faenilgood morning people! :)12:03
mzanettihmm... I'm using the QML ContactModel which has "decoration" property. But how do I display a QPixmap in QML?12:04
mzanettifaenil: good morning :)12:04
faenilmzanetti: what about ?12:06
mzanettifaenil: I get the QPixmap from the ContactModel...12:06
mzanettifaenil: I know how to do that in C++. Thing is, that there is ContactModel in QML and somehow I can't believt that I need to code a C++ bridge just to convert the QPixmap to a QImage12:07
faenilmmm don't know sorry...12:07
mzanettifaenil: np12:08
faenilwhich code returns the qpixmap?12:08
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faenilthere's no doc about decoration...12:11
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grimzanetti, Trying to get the rounded contact images?12:26
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sivangso nobody has an idea how to solve develsh not getting installed since Aegis thinks it came from unknown source?12:39
sivangI'd like to fix ti to go on with the upgrade12:39
faenilyou sure it's aegis?12:39
sivangfaenil: there's an error message,12:40
sivangfaenil: "Aegis reject package X due to coming from untrusted source" or somesuch12:40
sivangfaenil: I can fetch the exact message, just a sec.12:40
faenilI have the same problem with develsh not being able to update itself12:40
faenilbut I get no error, just update failed in the gui, and nothing in syslog12:41
sivangfaenil: do you have any idea why ssh root@localhost gives proper root (that can reboot) and nothing similar on the device?12:41
SpeedEvilWhere did you ge the develsh package?12:41
sivangfaenil: oh , I always go back to the console on the device it self12:41
sivangSpeedEvil: Harmattan got it12:41
sivangSpeedEvil: I did not change anything in the configs12:41
faenilI got it from device updates12:41
sivangSpeedEvil: there were 20 proposed updates,12:41
sivangSpeedEvil: and I just allowed them to get installed12:41
sivangsame as faenil12:42
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MohammadAGsivang, root can reboot12:56
MohammadAGany root12:56
sivangMohammadAG: I could not with devel-sh nor with develsu13:00
grihuh, I got no updates except openssh-client and server this week13:00
sivanggri: did you manage to install develsh upgrade?13:01
grithe last update of develsh I got was more than a week ago13:01
MohammadAGsivang, devel-su, /sbin/reboot13:02
grisivang, I have 1.14 installed, you?13:03
sivangMohammadAG: why is the shell env for ssh and devel-su different? any idea?13:04
sivangMohammadAG: more to ask, how are they different?13:04
sivange.g. ssh root@ == devel-su13:05
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* sivang wonders if using aegis-developer-mode with apt-get upgrade would allow him top fix the develsh upgrade issue13:06
grisivang, What's the version you're trying to install?13:07
MohammadAG/sbin isn't in $PATH by default13:07
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sivangMohammadAG: right, and in ssh it is?13:08
sivangMohammadAG: can you also resend me the link for the Hebrew virtualkb please? :)13:08
MohammadAGsivang, edit the .profile so it adds /sbin to $PATH13:08
sivangMohammadAG: yes, I was just baffled why the difference between the ssh bash exec and the "on device" one by devel-su13:09
sivanghey Venemo !13:09
Venemohey sivang :)13:09
sivangMohammadAG: thanks again for the link, still in Jeru btw? :)13:09
* SpeedEvil finds it odd that 'The SIms' isn't more promoted in the store13:10
sivangSpeedEvil: lol13:10
sivangSpeedEvil: it is PG13 game13:10
SpeedEvilAlso that angry birds isn't there at all.13:10
sivangSpeedEvil: it is here all over13:10
MohammadAGgod abill_uk is being retarded13:11
VenemoMohammadAG, that's not news.13:11
SpeedEvilsivang: The extra levels - in the store?13:11
Venemoif I were a moderator, I would've banned him long time ago13:11
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sivangSpeedEvil: ah, do not know about this - the game is promoted here more than Apple13:13
sivangwhich for me is nice13:13
sivangMohammadAG: devel-su is the canonical way to get root on the device for my info? :)13:14
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sivangothers, et al13:15
sivangnow I am going to try with the relaxed exe13:15
faenilI get another error here13:15
faenilcannot open apt/ don't remember what13:15
sivangalso, is there a bug report somewhere for the task closing?13:18
Venemosivang, what task closing?13:18
sivangsometimes, when you close a task from the left, all of the others lose representation on the dashboard but remain working13:18
sivangI guess it is just a UI issue13:18
sivangopen some apps13:18
sivangin the background13:18
sivangnow instead of closing from right to left13:19
sivangclose from left to right13:19
sivangsee what happens?13:19
VenemoI have never noticed such an issue.13:19
sivangreopen the task switcing dashboard, and they are there - now every task you clsoe causes the whole list of them disappear13:19
* sivang needs to come up with reproduction scenario13:19
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sivangaegis developer mode does not help13:21
* sivang tries disabling non store sources.13:21
sivangthe shell on the device from wifi feels much quicker and nicer than on the N90013:21
* sivang goes to purge the pkg13:23
Venemo'rm /var/cache/apt/archives/*'13:23
sivangnow that was not a good idea13:24
* sivang screams13:24
* sivang tries to understand if this could brick the device whe it reboots13:24
sivangVenemo: tried clearing the cache for 10 times alrady, did not help13:24
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grisivang, open /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf13:25
grisearch for develsh13:25
griand delete the Source: line13:25
griand try reinstalling13:25
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sivanggri: what does that mean?13:26
MohammadAGsivang, yes13:26
sivangworkrave is going to kill me if I don't take a break13:26
sivangWell, nothing happened.13:26
MohammadAGapparently Google got licensed to show Israel's maps13:26
sivangMohammadAG: in response to ? :)13:26
* sivang feels out of context13:26
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grisivang, In beta2 you can trick the origin and replace packages13:26
MohammadAG<sivang> MohammadAG: devel-su is the canonical way to get root on the device for my info? :)13:26
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sivanggri: but I did not  replace any package..13:27
sivangMohammadAG: oh, sarcasm on Saturday :)13:27
sivangremoving the package helped13:27
grisivang, On my device, develsh is from unknown origin, not from
griwonder how you got that13:27
sivanggri: I removed the package, went to the app manager, it said "develsh failed upgrade" I redid the upgrade. Profut13:28
sivangProfit even13:28
sivanggri: but when I removed the develsh package from SSH the ssh session closed the same instance.13:28
MohammadAGIsrael's maps finally show on Google Maps' API13:29
sivangMohammadAG: they do?13:29
grisivang, sure, since you were logged in via develsh13:29
sivanggri: ah right13:29
grisivang, the developer has develsh as login shell13:29
sivanggri: I did change to it13:29
MohammadAGsivang, yes, as of this week13:29
MohammadAGthey didn't work last week at least when I got lost in Haifa13:29
* gri only uses "user" instead of developer for testing ..13:29
rantomQuick question13:30
sivangMohammadAG: wow! nice, so we can now use it for creating location based services!13:30
sivangrantom: what a funny nick you have13:30
rantomIs anyone else having issues showing the Twitter-feed in Feeds?13:30
MohammadAGrantom, disabled it since it flooded my feed, but it works fine13:30
rantomI haven't got the feed back for a few days13:30
MohammadAGanyone making a Google Maps app?13:31
sivangMohammadAG: I am developing a location based social cool app for parties, and I was wondering how'd I would use OVI maps since they do not map Israel at all13:31
rantomsivang: How come?13:31
sivangrantom: like, Random, but on the ranting way of the word13:31
MohammadAGsivang, why ovi maps then?13:31
rantomMohammadAG: Yeah, that happened to me too. I cleaned it (remove all feed) but since then it hasn't come back13:31
sivangMohammadAG: I can't use it then - but IO want something for the whole entire world13:31
MohammadAGI wish Nokia would get the license google got13:31
rantomsivang: mm13:31
sivangMohammadAG: harma asks me for "uncertified sources" on openssh-server, is that okay?13:33
sivangMohammadAG: as well for teminal, and energy profiler13:33
MohammadAGyeah, I guess13:33
sivangbut aren't they from trusted sources?13:33
SpeedEvilsivang: openstreetmap in principle13:33
rantomI'll try to figure it out ->13:33
sivangSpeedEvil: mobility can ust it as a data source right?13:33
SpeedEvilsivang: however, if you're just using tiles, then if you get a very popular app, you face getting banned - as the tileservers are a resource for mappers.13:34
sivangokay same issue holds for the rest of these 3 pkg updates13:34
sivangSpeedEvil: from OSMs ?13:34
sivangSpeedEvil: hmm, so I need a different solution13:34
SpeedEvilsivang: Cloudmade cmmercially supply OSM tiles, and you can also setup your own server to serve the tiles.13:34
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sivangSpeedEvil: setting up my own maps server?13:35
sivangSpeedEvil: do you know a link / howtow / examples?13:35
sivangwriting this app is going to be so much work :)13:35
sivangSpeedEvil: I thought it is enough to create my own GIS venue database and just use a map service to display it on the handset13:36
SpeedEvilsivang: I don't happen to - it does require a fairly beefy machine though. Wander over the wiki, or ask over on #osm on irc.oftc.net13:36
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SpeedEvilGIS venue database?13:37
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rantomGot it back, removed and re-added the Twitter to accounts13:41
sivangSpeedEvil: just to have a db of places, that's all, but I need to be able to show them on a map13:41
sivangSpeedEvil: I thought I'd use QtMobility for that, but it does only sypport OVI and OSM right?13:41
sivangor maybe google maps as well?13:41
sivangMohammadAG: ^13:41
SpeedEvilDon't know13:42
sivangwhat is the way to install new pkgs ?13:42
sivangI now lost both the terminal and ssh server is not responding as seems to have stopped :)13:42
sivangwhat is the 'allow installation from non store sources" what sources does it use for those instals?13:44
sivang"openssh server: application incompatible with other installed applications"13:45
sivangseems there's an breakage and we need to wait for ti to get fixed13:45
* sivang does the unthinkable and reboots13:50
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Venemo!/ceoStephenElop - is it only me or he is really trolling us?13:54
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sivanganybody has an idea how to install new package onto the device?13:56
* sivang does not mind reflshing to get beta 2 fw13:56
Venemosivang, 'dpkg -i mypackage.deb'13:56
Venemosivang, if it's borked, reflash might be a good idea13:56
sivangVenemo: not borked at all, working an all13:57
* RST38h suspects that at this stage, reflash is the only good idea13:57
sivangVenemo: just no terminal and no ssh13:57
sivangVenemo: due to the upgrade13:57
sivanghow do you reflash? Is there a way to do a backup? ;)13:58
* sivang googles13:59
Venemosivang, Settings/Sync&Backup/Backup13:59
RST38hVenemo: this is no real Elop14:00
VenemoRST38h, which one is the real?14:00
sivangVenemo: ok, thanks although I do not have too much stuff there I'll backup and copy over USB14:01
* sivang is happy to have his first reflash14:01
Venemosivang, do you run 34-2?14:01
sivangso reflashing is the way to upgrade to beta 2 fw right?14:01
Venemosivang, yes.14:01
* sivang is so stupid14:01
VenemoSpeedEvil :D14:02
RST38hSpeed: Somehow, they look pretty much the same =)14:02
sivangVenemo: should have done some more reading before :)14:02
RST38h"...quoted Sun Tzu 'We believe in ourselves' and in our ability to execute war against our strategy..."14:03
sivangfaenil: for the record, Aegis is not the blame - the problem is that I tried to install new package built with the new SDK without reflashing the fw first14:03
sivangfaenil: if you reflash as well to beta2 , it will work perfectly14:04
VenemoSpeedEvil, maybe the fake accounts also belong to him :D14:04
VenemoSpeedEvil, if I were a CEO, I would definitely make a parody twitter account for myself14:04
RST38hsivang: Ok. Reflash the fw already.14:04
sivangRST38h: lol14:04
sivangwho has topic rights on the channel?14:04
Venemosivang, DocScrutinizer & hiemanshu14:05
RST38hsivang: Please,at least keep your problems out of the topic, ok? =)14:05
sivangfaenil: Laszlo helped me solve this thang14:05
sivangfaenil: :)14:05
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djszapisivang: could you manage the aegis bug after I said ? :D14:06
sivangRST38h: am I the last to upgrade to beta2? I think this pitfall should be in the channel's topic :)14:06
sivangdjszapi: it is not Aegis, it is my bug not being able to RTFM for once! :)14:06
Venemohey djszapi :)14:06
djszapisivang: the fact is that 1) It must be aegis bug!! 2) If there is nothing in the log about aegis, then it is again aegis bug, because it does not log well, right ? :)))))14:07
sivangtopic+= "Don't upgrade before you've reflashed to fw beta2, for otherwise you would reflash anyways" :-)14:07
sivangdjszapi: actually, aegis did log - but was doing that for the rigth reason, it had to be newer to understand the new sdk packages are okay.14:07
faenilsivang: sure, I never said it was aegis :)14:07
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djszapisivang: oh it is always aegis, you do not know this channel :)14:07
* sivang feels the warmth :)14:07
faenilsivang: I also sent the link to djszapi to let him check14:07
* sivang takes a deep breath14:08
faenilsivang: and djszapi said it was okay, and the system was screwed ;)14:08
djszapithat is impossible, it is aegis!! :)14:08
djszapiwhen can we go to protest in front of Nokia ? :)14:09
sivangVenemo++ on parody account for myself14:09
* sivang wishes he were a CTO14:09
Venemosivang :)14:09
sivangof a boating company14:09
faenilI don't know how to say this in english but, don't make all people the same. If lots of people trolls, lots of other people don' just try to focus on people who don't...that's my advice.14:09
sivangsuch a fool I am.14:10
* sivang checked the fw in about and just disregarded it14:10
RST38hyes,faenil, people divide into trolls and food for trolls14:10
djszapithere was a guy yesterday entering the channel with the first sentences, I have a network problem, I suspect it is aegis. The guy did not even have syslog on his gadget. I do not know how he could provide it is aegis, but funny :))))14:10
RST38hso, let us ignore the trolls and concentrate on the troll food14:11
Venemodjszapi, it has became a sort of "fashion" here to blame Aegis for everything :(14:11
RST38hI would even dare to say, LET US TROLL 'EM TO DEATH!!! =)14:11
sivangdjszapi: I wonder how he got a device14:11
sivangRST38h: you mean troll the trolls? :)14:11
sivangwho has access to the topic?14:12
sivangI am dead serious now14:12
djszapiVenemo: yes, I know. This made a sort of unhappy atmosphere here.14:12
sivangplease help us make this place more cozy14:12
Venemodjszapi, yeah.14:12
RST38hVenemo: that is normal for any disrutive, unpredictable piece of technology14:12
RST38hVenemo:users get paranoid and start blaming everything onit14:12
sivangDocScrutinizer: I need help with the channel's topic14:13
RST38hVenemo: which damages the reputation of the product14:13
VenemoRST38h, yeah, unfortunately14:13
sivangDocScrutinizer: let's add a IMPORTANT note that before trying latest upgrade, make sure you are on fw 34-2 and only then do it14:13
djszapiVenemo: there was also a guy (clearly remembering), he could not make a debian package from clean build, and was saying, it must be aegis. I spent couple of hours with him, and after that he said, oh I did a clean build and it is not okay.14:13
sivangRST38h, djszapi , Venemo : we would overcome this. We have an amazing product14:13
RST38hVenemo: Nokia should have fired lawyers and platsec peoplefirst, but looks like they started with the marketing14:14
sivangRST38h, djszapi , Venemo : We have passion for it14:14
djszapiVenemo: there was a guy swearing aegis for /hours/, and the problem was that he changed the hashbang to a wrong one in the maintainer script14:14
Venemodjszapi, in fact, I still admire your patience that you display for these kinds of people.14:14
sivangdjszapi: how did he get a device?14:14
djszapiVenemo: so general debian packaging issue, but was swearing about aegis, and many stories like that I could enumerate I experienced :D :D14:14
sivangI think a shall test and a small c coding test would have been in place for getting the device :-p14:14
sivangone click flashers..14:15
RST38hsivang: what "latest upgrade" are you talking about, anyway?14:15
sivangI wanted to do qLasher14:15
Venemodjszapi, yeah.14:15
sivangRST38h: all over devel-* , profiling and power utitiles, and some more stuff like terminal and ssh14:15
sivangRST38h: probably a new build against the new fw14:15
sivangI propose troll watch14:16
sivanglet's take turns in gaurds, like in the army14:16
sivangRST38h: but I did not power up my device since I got it, as I had to deal with other non important stuff like real life before I could attend to it properly.14:17
djszapiVenemo: there was also a guy, who did not like something, and we changed the policy according to his idea, and he still kept swearing :D :D :D14:17
sivangdjszapi: problem is that some people got used to Nokia being the most open in linux on mobile, now this gets back at us14:17
Venemodjszapi, lol14:17
djszapisivang: they are not obligated to use something they do not like, right ?14:17
djszapisivang: you were there at the desktop summit, lot of kde developers loved this platform as it is, right ?14:18
sivangdjszapi: they know that if they tell this to Apple or Google nobody would be there to listen :-D14:18
sivangdjszapi: yes, they were thrilled at it and at the possiblity of having KDE mobile with it14:18
faenilbe back later, lunch time :)14:18
faenilenjoy people :) don't fight in the meanwhile :P14:18
djszapiyeah, KDAB (KDE company) could not still get gadgets for making kde pim working, but so many people got here who are just swearing.14:18
sivangOMGS beta2 has a WIFI HOTPOST APP FOR FREE14:19
* sivang faints14:19
sivangthanks faenil , come back soon :)14:19
djszapiand they could do it in professional, full-time job.14:19
Venemo~seen wazd14:19
sivangdjszapi: well, nothing we can do about it now :-/14:19
infobotwazd <~wazd@> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 1d 3h 38m 1s ago, saying: 'heya'.14:19
MohammadAGare there any good Qt mapping apps? besides Marble14:20
djszapisivang: and that is why I am happy about people behaving like that, when there are so many people out there who could be benefit much more about it (Also Nokia could benefit more from them)14:20
MohammadAGI want something similar to Mappero14:20
RST38hMohammad: maep?14:20
VenemoMohammadAG, how difficult would it be to port mappero?14:21
sivangMohammadAG: Mappero was the globe app on Fremantle?14:21
sivangdjszapi: Not sure what to say. At least I'm happy with it very much and I will make my voice heard and I go around and show it to people and they are amazed feeling their iPhone is last year.14:21
Venemosivang :D14:21
sivangdjszapi: but being sincere, you need to kow I gave a rant talk about Fremantle and Sybmian, back in 201014:22
djszapisivang: I will ask Nokia whether they can still give some devices to KDE developers, and organize a KDE Harmattan sprint, probably in Berlin.14:22
sivangdjszapi: 45 minutes rant talk, which seems to have mostly resovled with Harmattan :)14:22
sivangdjszapi: that''l be great.14:22
djszapiyeah, calligra, gluon, kalgebra are already sort of working.14:23
sivangmy god the flasher downloads so slow... my shitty network14:23
sivanghmm wait a sec14:23
sivangI do not need to backup for flashing - this does ot flash the eMMC2 right?14:23
sivangRST38h: ^14:23
Venemodjszapi, KPatience?14:24
djszapisivang: you do need14:24
MohammadAGVenemo, it's C/Gtk14:24
sivangdjszapi: how come?14:24
djszapisivang: at least save out the contacts, and you can restore it with my wiki instructions.14:24
VenemoMohammadAG, ooooo... shame.14:24
sivangdjszapi: okay cool14:24
* sivang backs up14:24
djszapisivang: because you need to use the EMMC relevant to the new firmware.14:24
sivangdjszapi: ah right!14:24
sivangdjszapi: was this just like Fremantle?14:24
djszapiexport the contacts at least into your pc, do you have something else to back up ?14:24
sivangdjszapi: yes, I will do a backup and copy it over through USB14:25
sivangdjszapi: ssh is dead, but USB must work14:25
djszapisivang: actually, I am trying to ask for N9 for kde developers this time.14:25
sivangI ahve to eat something dear loved people of #harmattan14:25
sivangdjszapi: that'll be even better, but Berlin would be nice again.14:25
sivangdjszapi: vbe back after lunch dude , thanks14:25
djszapiVenemo: I see only kpat on maemo14:27
Venemoit's a shame that it's QWidget-based.14:28
djszapiseems to be very similar14:28
djszapino, kpat is qml14:28
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djszapiand it worked on fremantle, so it could be ported to Harmattan.14:28
djszapiprobably just repackaging.14:28
Venemois 'kpat' == 'KPatience'?14:28
djszapiwell take a look at that, it seems to be very similar14:29
Venemobut this can't be QML14:29
VenemoOS2008 doesn't support any Qt version which has QML.14:30
djszapiit has a fremantle version, is just that screenshot14:30
djszapiat any rate, it seems to be more adapted to mobile friendlyness than KPatience.14:31
djszapiKPatience wastes too many spaces on the layout14:31
djszapisivang: for the record and so as to understand the reason why you need to new the new firmware with the new SDK /all the time/: You have an old firmware containing a develsh from trusted source. We did it that way that time according to the OVI requirements, and then actually we realized it is /very/ huge security risk, so that we put it into unknown origin, and we extended with the proper OVI capabilities to get it work. If you could overwrite any syste14:37
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sivangdjszapi: I think it got cut14:51
sivangdjszapi: your line in IRC14:51
djszapi...where ?14:51
sivangdjszapi: "if you could overwrite any syste..."14:51
djszapi"...If you could overwrite any system package (truested) on your system with your own (unknown source), you can imagine then how much security would be in this platform for the average user. :)"14:52
sivangdjszapi: why was having the old fw with develsh from trusted source a risk?14:54
sivangI understand fast wheh explained slow :)14:55
RST38hThe average user does not know what package, source, or platform security is14:55
RST38hAnd never will.14:55
SpeedEvilAegis is not user security.14:55
sivanga malicious software could try and replace system packates14:56
RST38hBut djszapi would like us to believe it is for our benefit14:56
sivangthat the user installs14:56
SpeedEvilsivang: yes - whereas an app that reads other apps files, and sends them over the internet is clearly risk free, as long as it can't replace system files.14:56
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RST38hBecause if it is NOT for our benefit, then his life loses any meaning =)14:56
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djszapisivang: SpeedEvil has no understanding about what aegis is or what not :)14:57
SpeedEvilI know exactly what it's for.14:57
djszapisivang: the problem is that with trusted origin, they can begranted by too many capabilities, actually anything.14:57
djszapisivang: oh yeah, please ask SpeedEvil, he knows aegis better ;)14:57
SpeedEvil"If you could overwrite any system package (truested) on your system with your own (unknown source), you can imagine then how much security would be in this platform for the average user."14:57
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SpeedEvilWhen this is a small fraction of the threats against the user, and aegis does not address many of them.14:58
sivangdjszapi: I am really trying to understand now, so I have a package that has all the capabilties, named develsh14:58
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sivangSpeedEvil: so if I have a trusted pacakge, develsh, on an old fw, the new one cannot be determined to be trusted since the fw needs new knowledge to know that?14:59
sivangSpeedEvil: what other threats are there that are not adderssed?15:00
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SpeedEvilsivang: Aegis has things that it requires credentials for. If and only if these credentials are actually reviewed by the store team is this important. Otherwise the only limits on the actions an app from the store can do are the global limits on tokens no store app can have.15:01
SpeedEvilIn addition, there are no tokens required for some things - opening files that are not in the protected datastore.15:02
sivangSpeedEvil: so what is then the explenation for requireing a new fw to install new pkgs? Why is the new develsh pkg not trusted while it comes fro the trusted source?15:03
sivangSpeedEvil: and why would not those creds be reviewed by the store team?15:03
SpeedEvilsivang: I've no idea as to that, sorry.15:04
sivangSpeedEvil: so what are you actually saying?15:04
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* sivang is lost in the dark...15:04
SpeedEvilThis is more general comments about the fact that aegis is not a user security thing, it's a platform security thing. It can be a user security thing in limited areas, where the app uses the protected datastore.15:05
SpeedEvilAnd it does prevent overwiting of system packages, which is a legitimate security concern.15:06
sivangSpeedEvil: well, to my poor understanding, if an app uses a protected datastore, then it should eb constraints, if not, then there's not much it can threaten the user no?15:06
SpeedEvilWell, apart from turn the camera and mic on, read all your files outside the datastore and send them to china.15:07
RST38hand that apparently covers all YOUR files15:07
RST38hNokia's and your phone provider's files stay safe15:08
SpeedEvilYou can have apps which store data inside the protected datastore.15:08
SpeedEvilAnd that data is safe.15:08
RST38hThis includes locking, branding, and forced advertising15:08
sivangSpeedEvil: right, so is app's fault15:08
sivangSpeedEvil: I'm quite sure OVI will mandate before publish that app uses the safe store15:08
SpeedEvilsivang: Err - no.15:08
sivangSpeedEvil: if you are using an app that does not use the safe store, I'd take it as my fault.15:09
infobotsivang meant: SpeedEvil: if I are using an app that does not use the safe store, I'd take it as my fault.15:09
SpeedEvilMany, many apps in the store are using ordinary files.15:09
sivangSpeedEvil: in the N9 versions?15:09
SpeedEvilAnd the stuff on mydocs can never be protected15:09
RST38hNot "many", rather something between "most" and "all"15:09
* sivang thinks to write OVI to make this as an QA requirement15:10
SpeedEvilBut they can't easily.15:10
RST38hAnyway, the whole aegis thing is a lawyer-inspired pestilence15:10
sivangSpeedEvil: why not ?15:10
SpeedEvilAs aegis does not require a credential for file access.15:10
SpeedEvilSo it's not automatically picked up as a credential, and would require a source code review.15:10
sivangSpeedEvil: so they cannot know when an app access the safe store?15:10
RST38hWill be broken as soon as someone gets to spend a bit of quality time with the final firmware15:11
SpeedEvilWhen it accesses the 'normal' filesystem.15:11
sivangI see.15:11
SpeedEvilThe safe store can have per-app keys, ...15:11
sivangso what is the real purpose for Aegis according to what you think?15:11
SpeedEvilPreventing users overwriting platform software.15:12
sivanglike iPhone and Adnroid do?15:12
SpeedEvilI don't know enough about those patforms to meaningfully comment.15:13
sivangokay, for me it sounds legite enough anyways.15:13
sivangI'm sure there's a way to go through the fopen calls and see they are not in the safe store15:13
sivangand reject the app on QA.15:13
sivangthis can be done even with ar or something15:14
SpeedEvilThat's the whole point of aegis.15:14
SpeedEvilSome system calls are trapped and only allowed if you've got the credential.15:14
sivangI have a hunch they might add it, it is not there for nothing15:14
SpeedEvilHowever - fopen, and many, many other calls aren't.15:14
sivangSpeedEvil: so they just add another syscall trap for file opens15:14
SpeedEvilThat would be a rather large change, and either every app would need it, or you'd need to introduce another list of files and subdirectories each app could access without it.15:15
sivangyou could symlink and sink storage all into the safe store15:16
sivangand the number of apps fpr the evice is still not that large.15:16
sivangbackup time.15:16
SpeedEvilSure - aegis could be made into a user security tool. It's just not one at the moment in many senses.15:18
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sivangSpeedEvil: that's okay, everything in its time.15:24
sivanganyway , back to backup :)15:24
sivangMohammadAG: I think I saw some example with Qt /QML using google maps15:34
sivangMohammadAG: need to dig this out.15:35
M4rtinKMohammadAG: BTW, what about modRana ? :) it (currently) uses Python + GTK, so its probably not of much of use for your purposes at the moment though :)15:43
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tarantismI've been writing an app that uses a custom pulseaudio module - will it be possible to get this past aegis?15:50
SpeedEvilI think javispedro was commenting about pulseaudio modules - though I'm unsure what his conclusion was.15:51
tarantismI saw some of that wrt fm radio15:51
SpeedEvilWhat're you trying to do?15:52
tarantismlow latency music app15:52
SpeedEvil(I have no knowledge on this, just wondering)15:52
SpeedEvilmusic creation you mean?15:52
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tarantismI spent many months trying to get latency low without a custom module but found it wasn't possible15:53
tarantismon N900 at lease15:53
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MohammadAGcongrats thp_ :D16:12
faenilyeah definitely :D16:12
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javispedrohello gentlemen16:51
SpeedEviljavispedro: Hey16:54
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Venemohey javispedro16:57
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tarantismjavispedro: Do you know if it's possible to deploy a pulseaudio module to harmattan?17:14
javispedrocurrently, yes17:14
javispedrobut as it is surely a security problem, dunno what will happen on the future.17:14
javispedromay I ask what do you want to do either way?17:15
tarantismI'm writing a music app and it's the only way I can see to get low latency.17:15
javispedrothat's surprising17:16
tarantismwhy so?17:16
javispedrodo you know you can store samples on the server?17:16
tarantismI did know that but I can't interrupt/modify the playback17:16
javispedrohm, good point17:17
tarantismIf you want to synthesise samples on the fly, it really has to be RT17:17
tarantismor high latency17:17
javispedroWhat I find surprising is that you were able to decrease latency by a custom module17:18
piggzis there somewhere a list of all the harmattan platform toolbar icon names?17:19
tarantismYes, nice and quick. It makes your phone playable!17:19
tarantismYou can ask for short time frames from a client and get low latency17:19
tarantismbut because your process might be interrupted for 100s ms at a time, you get glitches17:20
tarantismin a module, you have RT priority so can keep up with eg 10ms frames17:20
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javispedroso it's not PA perse but scheduling =)17:24
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JaffaAnyone know what the 'content' directory is for under MyDocs/{Music,Movies} etc?17:39
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sivangDocScrutinizer: here?17:56
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sivangwho has topic access to the channel ?17:56
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sivang17:56
DocScrutinizerNB char limit already reached17:57
lardmanAnyone familiar with QML ListView delegates? The examples have e.g. a Column object containing Text objects all within an Item element; I need to be able to switch between a Column and a Row depending on the device orientation17:58
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to " A cozy little place for pure harmattan device and development discussions | No discussion that requires NDA please!| Developers check this: | | logs:"17:58
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer17:58
lardmanpresumably I should anchor the elements and alter the anchors in the state change stuff, but doing this, my "column" ends up with each item drawn over the top of each other, while my "row" works fine17:59
lardmanperhaps because I'm not anchoring side to side?17:59
lardmanany ideas?17:59
sivangDocScrutinizer: okay let me see if I can do it right, /me edits an topic withing text limit that includes a link to latest upgrade news :)18:00
DocScrutinizersivang: whatever you edit, please do /topic <c&p of recent topic text> | <your new text>18:01
sivangDocScrutinizer: ofcourse, what am I , a kid? (I used to maintain some Ubuntu channels back then ) :-p18:02
DocScrutinizeryour +o will expire in ~15min18:03
lardmanah, fwiw anchoring to the bottom of "parent" is what was screwing things up, I thought parent would be the Item wrapper within the delegate, but apparently not18:03
sivangDocScrutinizer: okay, /me runs18:04
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o sivang18:08
DocScrutinizersivang: see /ms chanserv help topic18:08
DocScrutinizerand /msg chanserv access #harmattan list18:09
DocScrutinizer[Notice] -ChanServ- 8     sivang                 +t [modified 2 minutes, 8 seconds ago]18:10
sivangDocScrutinizer: thanks, I'm doing a quick post for this, might run overtime, can I ask you to op me again for just 2 minutes so I can add it to channel?18:12
DocScrutinizerplease rephrase18:13
sivangDocScrutinizer: I might run over the time allotment18:14
DocScrutinizerno more timing, you got permanent permission to change topic via /msg chanserv topic #harmattan <new topic>18:15
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DocScrutinizersee " /msg chanserv help topic" and "/msg chanserv help flags"18:18
DocScrutinizerand " /msg chanserv help topicappend"18:18
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DocScrutinizersivang: /msg chanserv access #harmattan list -> [Notice] -ChanServ- 8     sivang                 +t [modified 2 minutes, 8 seconds ago]18:21
DocScrutinizer[Notice] -ChanServ-     +t - Enables use of the topic and topicappend commands.18:21
DocScrutinizersivang: ping me if there are any questions or problems18:23
sivangDocScrutinizer: will do, gazillion thanks18:23
DocScrutinizerthanks for help on maintenance18:23
Venemoanyone knows how to pop up the "Connect to Internet" dialog from my app?18:24
sivangDocScrutinizer: opkay I need topic rights now18:35
sivangDocScrutinizer: topic is read18:35
DocScrutinizeryou *got* topic rights18:35
sivang18:35 -!- #harmattan You're not a channel operator18:35
DocScrutinizersee /msg chanserv help topic18:36
DocScrutinizersee /msg chanserv help topicapend18:37
DocScrutinizer[2011-10-01 17:18:59] [Notice] -ChanServ- Examples:18:38
DocScrutinizer[2011-10-01 17:18:59] [Notice] -ChanServ-     /msg ChanServ TOPICAPPEND #foo bar18:38
sivang18:39 <sivang> TOPICAPPEND #harmattan UPGRADES:
sivang18:39 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You are not authorized to perform this operation.18:39
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sivang18:40
sivanghmm /me retires18:40
sivang18:41 <sivang> TOPICAPPEND #harmattan UPGRADES:
sivang18:41 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You are not authorized to perform this operation.18:41
sivangDocScrutinizer: doc?18:41
DocScrutinizeruse /topic18:41
sivangDocScrutinizer: can I topicappened using it?18:42
DocScrutinizerdunno what fart spoiled chanserv's operations18:42
DocScrutinizerafaik not18:42
DocScrutinizerthere's no /topicappend command18:42
* sivang c&p's18:43
*** sivang changes topic to "A cozy little place for pure harmattan device and development discussions | No NDA discussions please! | Developers check this: | | logs: | UPGRADES:"18:45
Venemosivang, I get "error: The article you specified could not be found."18:45
faenilthe article you specifies could not be found18:45
faenildammit xD18:46
sivangstupid twitter18:46
sivangyes, it was twitter shortening serivce18:46
sivanggonna use a proper now18:46
sivangdoes this work?18:47
*** sivang changes topic to "A cozy little place for pure harmattan device and development discussions | No NDA discussions please! | Developers check this: | | logs: | UPGRADES:"18:47
sivangthank you people18:48
sivangand thanks DocScrutinizer18:48
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o sivang18:48
sivangnow some dinner18:48
DocScrutinizerI'd like to hear about new findings why chanserv refuses to do topic(add) for you - if you ever manage to play a bit more with it18:49
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DocScrutinizerobviously you are registered with nameserv, and you got +t on access-list18:51
DocScrutinizer~lart ChanServ18:52
* infobot --purges ChanServ18:52
DocScrutinizerHAH no, you're not registered, so it can't work18:53
DocScrutinizer [Whois] sivang ist (sivan)18:54
DocScrutinizer*NOT* sivan@unaffiliated/sivang18:54
DocScrutinizersivang: please identify to nameserv, then also chanserv topic(apend) will work for you18:55
VenemoDocScrutinizer, s/nameserv/NickServ18:56
DocScrutinizererr yes18:56
Venemoyw, as always :)18:56
Stskeepsman, airports are boring at times19:02
* Stskeeps chills in helsinki one19:04
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DocScrutinizermessing with airport WLAN sometimes is quite "entertaining"19:14
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Stskeepsits free here19:16
DocScrutinizeryeah, often it's free, but configured in quite funny ways19:16
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Stskeepsmust be many linux geeks here, ssh port isnt blocked19:17
DocScrutinizersee if the html config page of router is open ;-)19:18
DocScrutinizeror telnet19:18
Stskeepsnaah, i have to come back here i hope :P19:18
DocScrutinizeralso a lil scan of the subnet reveals a lot of worthy targets for a bit of fun ;-)19:20
sivangStskeeps: I would love to be in the Helsinki airport, or Helsinki for that matter.19:20
sivangStskeeps: does it rain?19:20
Stskeepssivang: nah, cloudless19:21
DocScrutinizerno rain in Europe19:21
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe in the South of Spain19:21
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sivangDocScrutinizer: did not realize I was not identifed odd19:21
sivangam I identified now?19:21
Venemo[18:22] [Whois] sivang is logged in as sivang.19:22
sivangDocScrutinizer: and surely you mean, s/nameserver/chansev/ ?19:22
sivangStskeeps: that's the first thing I noticed in HEL airpot - free wifi just like in Israel and in no other place I've been too so far.19:22
DocScrutinizerTaipei also has free WLAN, but basically unusable19:23
sivangDocScrutinizer: right, FRA and Tegel and Munich it all costs top bucks.19:24
sivangStskeeps: visited for harmattan I take it?19:24
sivangDocScrutinizer: :)19:24
Stskeepssivang: no, meego CE19:24
sivangStskeeps: ah nice19:24
sivangthat is, even better :)19:25
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Stskeepssivang: is luxury to be able to wrk on open project.19:26
Stskeepsas long as it lasts19:26
sivangStskeeps: I agree.19:26
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sivangStskeeps: I think another open project comes, if this one is not the one.19:27
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Stskeepsi have doubts with nokia19:27
Venemofrals, ping19:30
sivangStskeeps: I'm optimistic and hoping for the best, there is a lot of mentions around the web of the next billion things and there are hints it is linux based.19:30
sivangis this true here, that simple restore of the backup won't just work?19:32
sivangperhaps this is fixed already?19:32
Venemosivang, nope, it will not work19:33
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sivangVenemo: why is that?19:33
Venemosivang, claimed to be a bug in the previous software's backup mechanism19:33
sivangI see.19:33
sivangso old fw's backup program is the problem then?19:33
sivangVenemo: ah okay19:38
sivangVenemo: sorry did not see the upper line19:38
sivangVenemo: why is pushing contacts to N900 helos?19:40
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sivangVenemo: why pushing contacts to n900 helos?19:41
Venemo_sivang, because you can't restore contacts from backups made with previous sw19:41
Venemo_sorry, my laptop froze19:41
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sivangVenemo: but syncing to a symbian device is also okay?19:43
sivangVenemo: I'd rather sync my shit to E719:43
Venemosivang, methinks yes19:43
DocScrutinizeruse export/import rather than sync19:47
DocScrutinizersync may not work the way you expected it to do19:48
DocScrutinizersyncing state of backup to the empty device ;-P19:48
DocScrutinizernot exactly what you want I guess19:48
DocScrutinizerso a) use export/import, and b) make a backup of your N900/<other-device> prior to "syncing" back (aka re-importing)19:49
Venemofrals, ping19:50
DocScrutinizerbtw sync to OVI/Nokia worked here, with beta1, at least for contacts (seems calendar got not synced)19:50
sivangDocScrutinizer: I need the windows suite for that yes?19:54
DocScrutinizerI didn't19:54
sivangDocScrutinizer: oh so just sync OTA to ovi?19:55
sivangI don;'t think this has ever worked for us in N900 or was there supoprt for that at all...19:55
DocScrutinizerit even has a sophisticated schedule for doing that automatically19:55
DocScrutinizerno support for that on N900 ever19:56
DocScrutinizerOVI detects N950 as DALI-device19:56
DocScrutinizerwhatever that means19:56
DocScrutinizersync takes ages, but works in background19:57
sivang*very* nice19:58
* sivang pets his N95019:58
DocScrutinizersettings -> sync&backup->sync19:58
sivangDocScrutinizer: thx19:59
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lardmanHmm, QML ListView, should my highlight be moving with my taps on the screen, or does that need to be implemented by me?20:35
faenilthere is some option iirc20:36
sivanganybody has an idea how to make a qml element that could be called from every item no matter how deep in a qml hirarchy and show a web page?20:39
sivangI guess I am thinking of a webkit component inside qml, which I can re-use as a singelton for different web pages per UX compoenent.20:39
sivangany idea someone?20:39
specialsivang: if you're using C++, you can add it as a context property on the root context20:39
specialqmlRegisterUncreatableType<WebkitHandler>("WebkitHandler", ...); view->rootContext()->setContextProperty("webkit", new WebkitHandler);20:40
sivangspecial: right so there is no way to do it in QML itself, perhaps there's no QML webkit component for harmattan at all? :)20:41
specialI have no idea about qml webkit components20:42
sivangspecial: I'm tomboying this dude, thanks, I got so far to understan I need to play with rootContext() but was not sure how.20:42
berndhssivang: there's WebView, you can put that anywhere you want20:42
sivangberndhs: ah okay20:42
sivangberndhs: will I need to add ti anywhere I want to use it, and also if I do, will it reuse the same webki instance?20:43
berndhsyou have to do "import QtWebKit 1.0", then you get the element defined20:44
sivangberndhs: nice and there's a way to just call it from a UX component without including it as a property?20:44
berndhsits an element like the rest of them20:45
sivangberndhs: I would guess this is the same as the c++ line special suggested?20:45
berndhslike Rectangle or ListView for one of those20:45
berndhsno it has nothing to do with the c++ stuff20:45
sivangberndhs: how would the C++ thing be different?20:45
berndhsthe properties defined from c++ allow you to interface with c++ objects20:46
berndhsListView isn't one of them20:46
berndhssorry WebView20:46
berndhsif you have multiple WebViews in the qml, they have different content of course20:48
sivangberndhs: right, so I look for a way to have one webview and be able to call it and show it from any place in the qml code20:49
sivangberndhs: as I want to allow existing code to be added support to call this webview to display as web study, for instance.20:49
sivangberndhs: perhaps as giving feedback about the specific UX component20:49
berndhsif you can find the element, you can manipulate it from other elements20:49
berndhschange the properties basically20:50
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berndhsQML doesn't have nesting of names, everything is global20:50
sivangberndhs: ah right, neat.20:50
* sivang recalls that from the 2010 training day in Munich20:50
berndhsso you can call up and down and sideways just with the basic id, and wreck things any way you want :)20:51
sivangberndhs: now what if I want to enable this calling of the webview from code that never was written that way, if you catch my drift (20:52
berndhsI think the element has to be in teh same qml file though20:52
berndhsotherwise you can export/import it through c++20:52
berndhswhich is even more flexible and even more wrong :)20:52
sivangberndhs: perfect so the C++ way holds :)20:52
berndhswell sort of20:53
sivangberndhs: this is for this, btw -
berndhsyou can find objects by name, or find objects that have property values20:53
sivangberndhs: because I see it now, I need to add the ability to trigger this webview opening for QML / qt code that did not have this.20:53
sivangberndhs: so I would need to add this webview and a way to open it to Item right?20:54
sivangberndhs: (which is the basis for the component hirarchy)20:54
sivangberndhs: such that some QML code, running with my qmlviewer would be able to trigger this webview as required20:54
berndhsyou can enclose the WebView in something that has functions you can call, or add properties to the WebVIew20:54
berndhsnot with qmlviewer no, it doesn't let you add c++ afaik20:55
sivangberndhs: I was thinking of making my own qmlviewer based on the one that Qt Creator boiler plates.20:55
sivangberndhs: only instead of adding debugging support and form factor detection I add this feedback UX20:56
* sivang goes to copy the channel log20:56
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berndhssure you could make your own viewer with your own additions20:57
mtdanyone know where to get the beta1 flasher?20:57
sivangberndhs: that is going to be the first POC, after that I would need to see how to do it for an arbitrary qt quick app, e.g. not all of them use qmlviewer right, some just have their own custom code for showing their QML UI ?20:58
sivangberndhs: and thank you so much for all of this help.20:58
berndhsI think most applicatiosn have their own viewer, just a QDeclarativeView instead of a QMainWindow20:59
sivangberndhs: right, so to make this support for all QML, I would need to add support to QDecelarive view. That's 2nd step.21:00
sivangberndhs: this conversation with you really helped me straighten my thoughts about this.21:01
sivangberndhs: adding support here means "sending a patch" to QDeclerativeView :)21:01
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sivanghey artemma21:02
sivangberndhs: thanks again, could I ask you more question downhill my development? :)21:03
berndhsi'm going to meego-arm to get some networking help :)21:03
faenilI haven't understood your problem completely, sivang :D21:03
sivangfaenil: it is not a problem, is a feature :)21:04
sivangfaenil: can you see the qt summit link above?21:04
artemmahi sivang21:04
sivangfaenil: An ambitious dream I have to get integrated feedback loop into QtQuick21:04
sivangfaenil: the ideal thing is that for a developer, to no have to worry about this, just import something to get support for the feedback and study pages 9served off the web) into his UX21:05
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sivangfaenil: so perhaps in the future (past POC) I am looking at adding support to QDecView to show this and fetch the id of the lement for a study21:06
sivanganyway I have to run to the shower21:06
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sivangfaenil: ideas and suggestion welcome, btw21:06
sivangberndhs: same to you21:06
faenilsure just trying to understand :)21:06
faenilso you basically users can see your QML UI on the web?21:07
faeniloh no, wait...21:07
faenilyou see the ui on crowd client21:08
sivangfaenil: took sometime for me to understand how I want to do this, Luckily nokia was to the rescue and I was taken to QtCS in berlin to spec and discuss this with some ver nice NOkias interested in it.21:08
sivangfaenil: yep!21:08
faeniland can give feedback about it21:08
sivangfaenil: but I have to go, will you be here in 2 hours?21:08
sivangfaenil: yes!21:08
faenildon't know21:08
faenilwe'll meet again anyway, don't worry :)21:08
sivangfaenil: read Charly's comments , I need to move this to devnet21:08
sivangfaenil: I count on this :)21:09
faenilok ;) I'm not qt expert though, just computer science university student learning and helping as much as he can :D21:09
sivangfaenil: that could be a nice spot to help, I'm also not an Qt expert but learning tons every day now, the docs are great, the SDK is sweet.21:09
faenillike the idea though :D21:10
sivangfaenil: I need to see if I can setup a wiki / development site on devnet21:11
sivangfaenil: if not that on nokia developer21:11
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faenilprobably stupid question, what's wrong with uploading and download qml directly?21:12
sivangfaenil: how do you mean?21:13
sivangfaenil: for every app?21:13
sivangfaenil: not stupid, actually interesting question. Elaborate please :)21:14
faenilif I understood correctly, this is a way for devs to get feedback about their UI..21:14
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faenilthey subscribe your service, and can upload UIs there, and they can get reviewed by other people via crowdclient21:15
faenilokay, so, what's wrong with uploading qml ui files directly to server, and download those qml via crowdclient?21:16
sivangfaenil: that is the idea, yes21:16
faenil(probably answered my question myself)21:16
faenilbut you're jsonizing it21:17
sivangfaenil: hmm right let me think about it21:17
sivangfaenil: I forgot the use case for the json21:17
sivangfaenil: oh, the idea is to use a REST service21:18
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sivangfaenil: to have specific UX elements downloadable21:18
sivangfaenil: not just whole files21:18
faeniloh okay, that's it then :)21:18
sivangfaenil: from a sort of key value store, I recall json helped me see how I can search through and pinpint specific elements21:18
faenilI see...very nice...21:19
faenilhope it goes on :)21:19
sivangfaenil: but probably there should be a distinction, e.g. if you want full files, for first UX upgrade you roll them all21:19
sivangfaenil: when you feedback, you go to REST / specific keys21:19
sivangfaenil: I like this kind of questions - makes you think21:19
faenilmaybe who knows :)21:19
sivangfaenil: but also, someone might not just agree to a whole UX upgrade, so he wants just specific bits :)21:20
sivangfaenil: I need a forum for this, nokia deveoper seems to rpovide it but this is a Qt feature21:20
* sivang will lookk21:20
sivangfaenil: anyway, have to go for now21:20
faenilsure, the json way is more flexible...21:20
sivangfaenil: thanks for the uestion21:20
faenilyw ;)21:21
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*** leinir_ has joined #harmattan21:31 I was able to use Optware packages until I rebooted my N95021:40
BrettQnow I just get "Operation not permitted"21:40
BrettQAegis needs to die in a fire21:40
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faenilare you sure it's aegis' fault?21:48
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mtdargh, OSX flasher requires 64-bit mac22:26
mtdanyone have the beta1/old flasher (just the usr/bin/flasher file) for linux around?22:32
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BrettQfaenil: not 100% sure, but not sure what else could cause it to stop working all of the sudden22:55
faenilBrettQ: so, until you're sure or you have evidence, don't talk about aegis, that is the wrong approach ;) which too many people got here :)22:58
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faenilguys how can I draw text on cubes via opengl es 2.0? Without using something like a big texture with chars and different text coords, or such...23:34
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deimosfaenil:  I remember there was something with glut, something like glutStrokeText23:47
deimosbut maybe glut is a problem ? :)23:48
faenilehehhe :D23:52
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