IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2011-09-29

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lardmanah, Tellico looks like a possibility00:06
Khertan_webchatJaffa: is there a new n950 fw ?00:10
macmaNi would hope so00:10
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lardmanofficial release version?00:13
Khertan_webchati ask because  i see a tweet of jaffa about new fw00:17
Khertan_webchatat least nothing new on nokia website :
Khertan_webchatgood night all00:20
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* lardman checks twitter00:29
lardmanhmm, I see00:30
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* lardman has worked out how to use ZXing from C++, testing that as the Photoanalyser barcode detector backend will give him something to do tomorrow00:31
lardmannight all00:31
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DocScrutinizernokia develper newsletter: >>Qt on the Nokia N9: Over a dozen demo apps<< OVER A DOZEN?? incredible! ;-P02:11
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berndhsi only have 5 apps on n950 so far02:12
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ScifigI am unable to download the Navigation Voice in the "Drive" application. The error is "Sorry, the list of new navigation voices can't be reached. Please try again later." Any fix or workaround for this?02:44
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lardmanah, the wonders of making Debian packages07:39
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lardmananyone awake here? Any thoughts on library versioning and how to name a library such as zxing, which is a port from Java and which I don't maintain?07:41
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* lardman wonders how many man-lives are wasted trying to work out Debian packaging08:41
nibblerlardman: hopefully less than spent in rpm-hell, trying to solve dependencies. But i'm not too optimistic on that.08:45
lardmanBy the time I package something up I feel I have a reasonable understanding, but I need to do that so infrequently that my understanding erodes away in the meantime08:46
nibblerfeels weird though to finally have the possibility to apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade on a phone and at the same time contemplate dropping ubuntu for fedora on the workstation :-)08:46
nibblerlardman: learning to document things for yourself - the hard way. i know that problem very well :-/08:47
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lardmanah, finally it's working08:49
lardmanonly wasted and hour and a half on that08:50
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* lardman repeats to himself all the mistakes he made with his Debianisation in an attempt to learn from them09:16
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Jaffakhertan_: It's beta 2. I've been slow.09:28
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macmaNJaffa: what would happen if you had been normal speed09:34
macmaNnewer fw would already be available?09:35
lardmanhmm, I wonder why Imagemagick is available in the Nokia repo, but lacks any header files09:40
* lardman wonders if he should skip using magick and just read the data himself09:41
ieatlinthas anyone managed to get the wifi hotspot app to work?09:42
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ieatlinti get "kernel: [18517.504394] wl1271: ERROR Adhoc not supported on this device." in the syslog09:42
lardmanI didn't realise there was one09:43
* lardman digs out phone09:43
ieatlintin beta2, there's an app preloaded labeled "Wi-Fi Hotspot"09:43
lardmanah yes, I see it now09:44
macmaN09:45     quimgil>[09:44:11] 14 RT @santtuahonen: New Qt SDK available for N9 developers under <…> This puts the SDK (and N950) on par with N9 sales release. #Qt #N9 #N95009:45
lardmanI wonder if that will auto update09:46
ieatlinti think he means the sdk, not the fw on the n95009:47
macmaNyeah i know. just that qtc 1.1.3 was just recently released.09:47
lardmanyeah I meant the SDK too, whether the update tool will pull that stuff in09:48
macmaNok yeah SDKMaintenanceTool finds a whole bunch of new stuffs09:50
* lardman marvels at the naming convention used in the imagemagick packaging09:50
ieatlintah, i see -- "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan API" "Installed Version 1.2011-22-6" "New Version 10.2011-34-1"09:50
lardmanmacmaN: drat, wish I'd not updated it yesterday now09:50
lardmanday before even09:50
macmaNwow, ok yes, indeed, SDK now includes 34-2 fw emulators :> didnt even notice that before09:51
macmaNugh its gonna be ugly raping this hotel wifi09:51
lardmanlibmagic9-dev goes with libmagic10, interesting09:51
macmaNdownloading a gig of sdk09:51
ieatlintso can anyone else confirm that the wifi hotspot app has [not] worked for them?09:51
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macmaNi read on fmo about claims that it borks networking09:55
macmaNso i havent tried it09:55
macmaNat the same time, i cant get BT DUN to work anymore on beta2 either09:55
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macmaNBT PAN doesnt seem to be enabled at all09:55
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ieatlinthopefully fixed by nokia in next fw release09:58
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xarcassmacmaN: what do you mean "34-2 fw emulators"? QEMU?10:00
macmaNi dont remember the exact contents of the update window, you dont have access to the maintenance tool right now?10:02
macmaNi thought it did say harmattan emulator 34-210:02
xarcassit's simple: if it's QEMU again, i'm not interested, but if I could use QtSimulator for N9 development I would be very happy10:07
lardmanone nappy change a cup of coffee and a cup of tea later and imagemagick is still compiling...10:07
lardmanah, running tests, no wonder it's taking an age10:08
* ajalkane cries tears of happiness. Babies give life a meaning while waiting compiles to finish.10:09
lardmannot so sure changing nappies is preferable to watching compilation, or indeed grass grow/paint dry etc., though it does share some pungent features with the last of those10:10
ajalkaneOn the other hand they're quite a nuisance when trying to code10:10
lardmanI got up stupidly early for some reason, so have had a few hours before wife + baby woke up10:11
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ajalkaneNowadays I get early up to code, or wake up for few hours in middle of night to get anythin done :)10:12
ajalkaneI smell shit. Ah, just a baby sleeping and producing waste on my lap. Or is it #tizen10:13
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lardmanwhat's this tizen business?10:13
* lardman does a Google10:13
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lardmanoh dear, more webtastic stuff10:14
StskeepsOBS, RPM, :P10:14
ajalkaneImagine 5 hour old baby feces. That's tizen.10:14
hiemanshuTizen means 'Two Asses' in Lebanese10:15
hiemanshuso its fine ajalkane10:15
lardmanwell at least Samsung are joining, as they make some nice hw10:15
lardmanhiemanshu: ah yes, I remember Mohammad mentioning that yesterday10:15
ajalkaneTwo asses, intel and samsung? They chose weird symbolism10:15
ieatlinti'm pretty meh about it, but i somehow think samsung will actually get a device out the door10:23
ieatlintwhich puts it ahead of meego10:23
ajalkanethey might. But will it attract users and devs is a different thing.10:24
TSCHAKeeei don't think anyone in charge10:24
TSCHAKeeehas learned a fucking thing.10:24
TSCHAKeeeit's simply: try #310:24
ieatlintif they think they're going to kill android or the ipad, the no, they'll die10:24
StskeepsTSCHAKeee: so, you're interested in a nice linux qt stack?10:24
ieatlintif they want to be the bada of the tablet world, then they've got a real chance10:25
TSCHAKeeestskeeps: I'm burned out.10:25
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StskeepsTSCHAKeee: aren't we all10:25
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ieatlintwell, i understand what intel is doing anyway10:26
ieatlintsamsung, i don't get10:26
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ieatlintbut maybe motorola was a factor10:26
TSCHAKeeeit's basically for me, the message is very clear, you have three choices Go To Android, Go to iOS, or kiss any hope of your creations getting to anyone goodbye. with a gun pointed to my head.10:26
meceieatlint, a factor wherE?10:26
meceTSCHAKeee, a whaa?10:27
ieatlintmece: in samsung joining with intel10:27
meceieatlint, I think it's just intel being desperate10:27
ieatlintTSCHAKeee: there's more to it than that10:27
TSCHAKeeemece: seriously? you're going to pretend there's actually a choice?10:27
ieatlintwindows phone, for instance10:27
TSCHAKeeethere isn't.10:27
ieatlintbut devs are attracted not only by users, but by returns10:28
meceTSCHAKeee, well now there's meltemi too.10:28
ieatlintand android's marketplace has notorious issues with apps that cost even $1 being shunned10:28
ajalkaneieatlint: tizen domain was registered before google motorola10:28
TSCHAKeeeit is very evident that open source communities are basically being viewed as everything from unpaid volunteer labour, to something akin to kids being used as pawns by divorced parents.10:29
TSCHAKeeevery dramatic conclusions, but think about it, seriously.10:29
ieatlintajalkane: not sure what to say about that, just checked when it was10:29
ieatlintjune 23..10:29
meceTSCHAKeee, if that thing is what I think it is, things could be pretty good for Qt devs10:29
ieatlintall i can say, is that intel made the decision well after that10:29
TSCHAKeeeI am absolutely furious that people like DawnFoster knew about this last minute coupling with Tizen10:29
TSCHAKeeeand yet are playing it off like a parent who wants the kids to come with them in the divorce.10:30
ieatlintTSCHAKeee: we're all being played, don't be hard on dawn10:30
TSCHAKeeewith no indication that things were wrong in the first place.. you what happened a year ago.10:30
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ajalkaneI'm staying with harmattan. Gots me n950, will gots me N9. Gonna die that way.10:31
ieatlintintel swung the axe 6 months after nokia, but we all knew it was coming10:31
ieatlintand after they did it, they promised the world, that everything we wanted out of meego would still be there10:31
meceajalkane, ditto10:32
* xarcass stays with iphone for money and with harmattan for fun10:33
TSCHAKeeeieatlint: every single time, i have backed an open platform, it has gone nowhere... this leads me to believe that I have very poor decision making skills...10:33
ieatlintwe're you with openmoko too? :P10:33
TSCHAKeeeI'm just....10:33
TSCHAKeeeI have a neo1973, and a gta0210:33
ieatlintyeah, i had two gta02s..10:33
ieatlintstill have one10:33
ieatlinti use the carrying case still :)10:33
TSCHAKeeemany years later, and they still don't work very well.10:33
macmaNieatlint: got any pointers for the android market study youre referring to?10:33
ieatlintmacmaN: admittedly anecdotal10:34
TSCHAKeeeieatlint: the greedy fucks of this world will not allow an open platform.10:34
TSCHAKeeeand even google, has created the world's largest honey pot with Android10:34
ieatlintbut on that same point, i'll also state that apple was at one point looking into meego, and discussing adopting parts of it, prior to nokia's announcement10:34
TSCHAKeeeopen..yes...but the door only swings in one direction.10:34
TSCHAKeeeieatlint: why? it's not in Apple's best interest.10:35
TSCHAKeeeApple's whole business model is predicated on "all roads lead to Apple."10:35
ieatlintnah, just making a joke about not having figures to back up my claim of poor returns in the android marketplace10:36
macmaNajalkane: im with you on that. i seriously doubt these androidz and other toys can do much of what i need and wont be able to do on harmattan.10:36
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ieatlinti tease my friends with android with the features of harmattan, my friends tease me with the fact they can reliably make phone calls and do wifi hotspots, or flash10:36
ieatlintwe're all losers :)10:37
macmaNieatlint: ok. we have a galaxy tab in the house as well for the female, so i'm kinda interested in all sorts of views on this10:37
TSCHAKeeeand the iphone users are blissfully ignorant of all of it10:37
meceieatlint, you can't reliably make calls and use wifi?10:37
macmaNi havent had a call problem yet10:37
* TSCHAKeee has been able to.10:37
meceI have no problems with either of those.10:37
ieatlintthe new firmware fixed the calling issues10:37
TSCHAKeeeieatlint: disappearing dialer UI while making a call?10:38
macmaNdidnt have an issue on 22-6. granted, i call very little.10:38
ieatlintalthough i do still take issue with part of the contacts system... i get a call, and it tells me the number is found in two contacts, but not which two10:38
macmaNphone call is my absolutely least favorite way to do anything.10:38
ieatlintyeah, the smartphone is great because we get to maker fewer calls10:38
ieatlint#1 way to market to geeks: remove direct human interaction10:38
ieatlinti'm far more likely to order a pizza from you if i can do it online, for instance10:39
macmaNgreat. had to interrupt SDK Maintenance operation and now the whole update thing is borked10:39
macmaNcould not fetch a valid version of updates.xml10:40
macmaNi guess complete uninstall time10:40
ieatlintmacmaN: and my anecdotal claim about poor returns on apps for sale in the android marketplace has been told to me by different people i trust on a few occasions10:41
ieatlintbut i don't have a study to quote... could google for one, perhaps10:41
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ieatlintit all makes sense though, which is why i believe it in part10:41
RST38hieatlint <== 100% correct10:41
ieatlintandroid phones target lower income people10:42
TSCHAKeeethe mobile world is headed for a crash.10:42
RST38hieatlint: not really10:42
ieatlintwho have less disposable income, and often pre-paid phone plans10:42
ieatlintRST38h: not just lower income10:42
RST38hieatlint: it targets normal, non technical people10:42
ieatlintbut most of the advertisements i see are how you can get an android phone on the cheap carriers for $5010:42
RST38hieatlint: who, on the average, have attention spans of a fruit fly10:42
RST38hieatlint: which is nicely illustrated by Marketplace stats vs stats for the same apps for other platforms10:43
ieatlinti was most recently told the poor returns claim by a MS rep actually10:44
RST38hdoes not matter who it is10:44
ieatlintwhile he at the same point spoke of MS's store imposing minimum app prices to ensure "you developers are able to make money" (ie, they get their 30%)10:44
TSCHAKeeei've tried to get my fiancee, to use my N95010:44
RST38hsame story for 99.999% of Android devs10:44
TSCHAKeeeshe is an iphone user10:44
TSCHAKeeeand won't touch my phone.10:44
RST38hTSCHAKEeee: Good reason to dump her, maaan =)10:45
TSCHAKeeerst38h: nah, I've got a good one.10:45
griTSCHAKeee: My girlfriend tries to swipe on every phone when she does not know how to get out of the application :)10:45
ajalkaneit'd be blasphemy touching another phone10:45
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TSCHAKeeebut it illustrates, that she's basically joined the cult of apple10:46
TSCHAKeeethey've programmed her10:46
TSCHAKeeeand she won't touch anything else.10:46
* RST38h wonders what happens to Steve Jobs' body when he dies10:46
ieatlintmy gf is on a nexus s, and just gets awkward about the n9/n950 because she knows i'm depressed at its fate10:46
griMost people I know who have a Iphone say "never again"10:46
ieatlintso, success!10:46
ajalkaneCremation, I think10:46
RST38hThe guy is such a perfectionist, I am sure he hates the idea of his corpse rotting in the ground or burning in an oven10:47
ieatlintif he's not there for the iphone 5 launch, we know he won't survive to 201210:47
* RST38h votes for plastification inside a huge plexiglass cube at the center of Apple HQ10:47
ieatlintif he is, it's still a good bet he won't make it10:47
hiemanshuRST38h: he'll cut em into parts and make, iCorpse :)10:47
ieatlintRST38h: that would be perfect10:47
griRST38h: The one on the sea ground (like in simpsons)?10:48
RST38hieatlint: Apple-perfect!10:48
hiemanshuoh that preservation thing10:48
ieatlintthey're just getting permission now to build their new "ufo" campus10:48
ieatlinthe could be the centerpiece of it!10:48
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ieatlintlike how yoda is in the center of lucas' campus10:48
RST38hRotating lit up cube with Jobs inside, the jeans, the turtleneck, the whole thing10:48
ajalkaneApple should turn into Scientology like religion.10:48
RST38hajalkane: it still hasn't?10:48
ieatlintyeah, it's there already10:49
* TSCHAKeee looks at this brave new world of F/OSS that has developed over the last 30 years, and realize, well, it's just like the old world. Corrupt.10:49
ieatlintthey just sell electronics instead of books/seminars10:49
ajalkaneRST38h: not yet, they need Jobs to be dead like the revered L. Ron Hubbard.10:49
RST38hProbably won't survive longer than 5 years after Jobs' death10:50
ajalkaneIt will if they plan the official religion status thing carefully, like Scientology did.10:50
ieatlintheh, it'll last, but i bet we see changes in next year's products10:50
TSCHAKeeelife sucks, i'm going to eat a bullet and go to bed.10:50
ieatlintTSCHAKeee: you might want to rethink the order of those actions10:51
meceI thought Jobs was more the Xenu type, if we're using scientology analogies.10:51
ieatlintone's a lot harder to do after the other10:51
meceGalactic overlord :)10:51
ajalkaneTake your N950 and N9 and other artifacts to bed. Like I do every night. I don't want to die without them.10:51
ieatlintmece: actually he's more hippie type10:51
ieatlintmaybe he's so sick because the homeopathic drugs didn't work right10:51
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* jreznik thinks he has a big spaceship and then he will take all his true believers into the apple shape planet he's building in galaxy far away :)10:53
ieatlintcome now, it's google that has reign over moffet field (a former navy airbase now mostly held by nasa)10:55
RST38hGoogle will gladly catapult all true Apple believers into space10:55
RST38hAs a charity even10:55
ieatlintthat would require a lot of catapults10:56
ajalkaneHow much would earth's orbit change if we were to catapult all Apple believers into space from the same launch location at the same time?10:59
ajalkaneJust an interesting thing to ponder at night when waiting for sleep.11:00
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griWhat's the average weight of a Apple believer?11:02
hiemanshuI expect heavy, with all the money to waste in his pocket11:02
ajalkaneI dunno. I've seen just two types. Pencilnecks and overweight.11:03
ajalkaneMaybe they average each other out.11:03
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xarcasshands off Apple worshippers! who would pay me for iphone coding if you launch all iphone zealots into space?11:08
macmaNTSCHAKeee: damn, my girl definitely digs the n950. but she's currently on a broken ass n79 :)11:09
grimine wants the n9 in red/pink/whatever the color really is (and I shall pay it ?)11:09
jreznikI bought hp veer for my gf, it's small, ideal for her hand but she's really unhappy... even the first beta on n950 was far far better - features, stability, bugs :(11:10
ieatlintthe pink n9 is very pink11:10
alteregoMine loves the N811:10
macmaNthere's a birthday coming on oct 24th in this household. guess whats the present is.11:11
grijreznik: Small phone for small hands? :)11:11
jreznikgri: yep, it's actually awesome and I like it too, just web browsing is not a nice experience... otherwise with swipe like gestures it's easy to navigate through and you usually don't have to touch small buttnos11:11
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RST38hmacmaN: an iPhone?11:14
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macmaNRST38h: you remember office space? there's a good line in there  about case of mondays. "i believe youd get your ass kicked for saying something like that" :>11:16
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RST38hmoo, smoku11:19
leiniri didn't expect to pass on my first attempt ;)11:20
smokuhi RST38h11:22
grileinir: Wow, how long did it take through QA? I am far away from submission :/11:23
leinirgri: about two days - but it /is/ a tiny app after all :)11:23
jreznikleinir: judging the level of current apps quality in store, I think there's no QA at all... same feeling for symbian (with real app)11:25
jreznikabout to send one app today for harmattan - maybe I'm terribly wrong :D11:26
iekkushould the app provider do the QA?11:26
leinirfrom what i'm aware, it's not app quality, but packaging quality :)11:26
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* RST38h just published 7 apps11:31
RST38hOne is still awaiting QA11:31
griWhat the hell? I didn't even finish one ...11:33
ieatlintthere's a finnish pun in there somehwere11:34
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spenapRST38h, can you give me your publisher link?11:36
spenapso I can check your apps? :)11:36
spenapup to this moment, I've been developing, only, so I use my own apps and screenshotme, to take screenshots of my apps :D11:39
spenap(or vnc to take videos)11:39
macmaNyeah RST38h hit us up11:41
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* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass12:01
griInfobot wants my domain? :)12:03
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spenapI just got the confirmation that my XKCD app got accepted. It's not "a RSS app", since I'm using their JSON api: you can navigate through the strip archive, view random entries and, best of all, see the alt text. Check it, if you're interested, at It's also open source, so if something in the UI pleases you, you can as well use it.12:09
DocScrutinizerwhere's the 3D-xkcd?12:10
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grispenap: Translations supported?12:11
spenapnot yet, but feature requests and bug reports are welcome12:11
gri"forbidden: you are not allowed to access this feature"12:11
griah, now I can open it12:12
spenap ← bugs and stuff here, or to me and I'll do it12:13
spenapRST38h, cool stuff :)12:14
DocScrutinizerspenap: sorry, the fsckng "google custom search" on XKCD thoroughly rapes and kills my browser, so I can't search12:14
* gri needs an icon designer for app icon12:15
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spenapDocScrutinizer, which google custom search?12:15
spenapyou want the mobile link?12:15
*** djszapi has joined #harmattan12:16 is the new googlez12:17
DocScrutinizerspenap: the "google custom search" that shows up on each xkcd page, directly under the text "Search comic titles and transcripts:"12:17
macmaNno tracking, no bubbling12:17
macmaN(othats what they claim)12:17
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spenapahhhhh, I understand12:17
spenapyou meant a particular strip, I didn't get it12:18
TSCHAKeeeI Got this email two minutes ago...: Hello, as part of the delivery of the OBS Light project which aims at simplifying access to OBS for people who needs to run project with mixed private and public repositories, we are happy to release the first version a OBS for MeeGO appliance.12:22
TSCHAKeeei wanna laugh and cry at the same time.12:23
djszapimmm, tizen is coming to the community obs12:23
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DocScrutinizerspenap: here you are:
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spenapDocScrutinizer, lol, i didn't know that one12:28
macmaNVenemo_N950: need new fw for n950?12:29
djszapihi Venemo_N950 :) Is it hard to port a plain QML app to components ?12:29
Venemo_N950macmaN, sure! :P why?12:29
djszapiDocScrutinizer: :))12:29
Venemo_N950djszapi, I have no idea, never used plain QML12:29
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Venemo_N950btw, I just read today's news. guys, please tell me what kind of stuff they smoke in Finland....12:30
djszapiVenemo_N950: you mean the meltemi news ?12:31
Venemo_N950djszapi, yes, I mean those news12:31
djszapiVenemo_N950: that news was available in April, already12:32
Venemo_N950I just don't get it12:32
Venemo_N9501. they abandoned their own linux-based os. then they abandoned the linux-based os they made with intel. then they announced that they're done with linux-based oses. and now they're once again, making a linux-based os from scratch.12:33
Venemo_N950are they nuts?12:33
grithere are also news on a german site: nokia closes factory in bonn and romania12:33
djszapiVenemo_N950: it is a different market sector, low-end devices.12:33
macmaNsomebody higher in the hierarchy must be smoking something that creates hyperactivity.12:34
djszapiI think it is very good because Qt keeps going this way, remains important for them not to drop Oslo yet.12:34
Venemo_N950djszapi, good excuse, but it's still nuts. how much code will they reuse from Maemo?12:34
Venemo_N950macmaN, yeah, I had the same reaction12:35
Venemo_N950djszapi, that's at least the good part of it12:35
macmaNsome "know it all" business guys seem to have no patience to see things through. what do they think this is a "make a successfuly ecosystem in a 18 months top, if not then we scrap and start over"?12:35
djszapiVenemo_N950: why is it bad ? I think it is actually very good. Smaller project, not like a megaproject that failed previously with more tries, and they still have the very long linux culture to make something work12:35
Venemo_N950but I can already tell you that Meltemi project will be cancelled by the time it starts delivering products.12:36
djszapimacmaN: see gri's question 4 minutes ago :)12:36
DocScrutinizerDANG, I almost choked and suffokated on reading "Aegean Sea" on a page about Nokia12:37
javispedroVenemo_N950, bright side: I no longer have to buy an iPhone then.12:37
macmaNoh damn, thats another new term today then. i was still talking about tizen :D12:37
Venemo_N950eg. what stops nokia from releasing 10 more harmattan devices instead of symbian or wp7? nothing. but they're not doing it anyways.12:37
macmaNreadjusting to yesterdays news.. but it turns out im already outdated! :>12:37
djszapiVenemo_N950: as for me (Qt enthusiastic), it is a /very/ good news after the tizen shock yesterday.12:37
Venemo_N950djszapi, tizen will also have qt, no shock there12:38
Venemo_N950macmaN, Meltemi is their new linux-based os, this time targeted at the low-end12:38
djszapiVenemo_N950: by 100+ very experiences employees like in Oslo ?12:38
javispedroVenemo_N950, that is a bit wishful; it won't be put in there by Samsung for ex., and thus, it won't have the level of support you're used to.12:38
Venemo_N950djszapi, I'm sorry?12:38
javispedro(unless they DO plan to make Qt the native API...)12:38
macmaNVenemo_N950: ok that .fi article pretty much said nothing about that12:39
djszapiVenemo_N950: The Oslo office has 100+ employees working on Qt. Will Tizen provide that resource ? (Consider that those people are very experienced and have a very relevant culture about it)12:39
macmaNare you guys updating to Foursquare 0.13.1-0 from Store?12:40
macmaNit's failing to download for me12:40
djszapiVenemo_N950: iow, many company promised many things in the past, but these Qt employees have already proven a lot, haven't they ? I am happy to see them stay yet12:41
Venemo_N950djszapi, idunno12:41
javispedrobut I have to say that this is exactly something I wished that would happen12:42
javispedroremember the statements about "Nokia not making any future _highend_ Meego phones" ;P12:42
* SpeedEvil doesn't.12:43
SpeedEvilI just remember 'ongoing disuptive technology12:43
DocScrutinizersorry, my take on "they still have the very long linux culture to make something work" is Nokia never understood the concept of FOSS, never been playing nice, now completely fsckd it with Aegis (this time I mean Aegis and not the policy), and they for shure were damn better off using some BSD licenced stuff to abuse and commercialize - it would relieve the pain from them to publish sources and write braindamaged userland daemons for12:43
DocScrutinizerthings that belong into kernel but they want to keep it closed - and it relieves community from constantly getting abused by them for cheap betatesters and coding monkeys that don't get anything back12:43
macmaNin my opinion (supported by someone working on the product team), N9  actually arriving in peoples hands in mass quantities might still change things12:43
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djszapimacmaN: in April it was already announced that Harmattan will be fully closed by 01.07.2012 :) it was even said, that since 01.01.2012 there will be just a small teams to ramp down the project fully :)12:45
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javispedroDocScrutinizer, you forget about meegoCE ;P12:46
javispedroeither way, I say wait and see, as usual, as this meltemi might as well be Qtopia/Qtextended resurrected and not have X11.12:46
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macmaNdjszapi: yep sure. i just never say never. it only takes one person to start a butterfly effect.12:47
djszapiI would say lighthouse instead.12:47
javispedrodjszapi, touché.12:47
macmaN@selop might still get his ass kicked the hell out of .fi, once the people get some pride back in them12:47
macmaNremember the engineer coup that happened at nokia at around 2000ish i believe?12:48
SpeedEvilThey've eliminated that posibility by firing all the engineers and outsourcing.12:48
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macmaNyeah. im just saying it will be an eyeopener. fire my start somewhere else, outside of nokia.12:49
faenilgood morning everyone12:49
faenilUpdates available in Qt SDK12:49
faenilfor those of you who did not notice it :)12:49
macmaNi for one will be doing whatever i can to start that fire and keep the flame12:49
faenilQt Creator 2.3.1, Harmattan Beta2 target, and other things in the new Qt SDK update12:50
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javispedrothe qtcreatorbug I filled' fix still not in it12:50
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javispedroI wonder when did they branch 2.3.1..12:51
javispedroah, probably from 2.3 not master12:51
griA description what has been changed on the harmattan target would be nice12:52
griSince I installed a few packages manually inside and don't know if it clashes when updating12:52
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: hey12:56
RST38hmoo javispedro12:56
DocScrutinizercheck your autojoins!12:56
javispedroI'm not at my usual place12:57
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kulvecan I configure the n950's led to notify about new SMS' etc?12:57
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djszapialterego: I could not get it work, dh_make will not be there in scratchbox.12:58
javispedrodh_make should work?12:59
javispedro(it has worked for me in the past)12:59
djszapino, it is not there by default.12:59
javispedroah, true.12:59
javispedrobut you can install it, dh-make package iirc12:59
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javispedroor, there was package about MTF application templates12:59
javispedro*a package13:00
RST38hMeanwhile, Nokia is going to lay off another 3500 employees by the end of 201213:00
RST38hGood work, good work indeed13:00
djszapiof course we can, that is not the point ;)13:00
alteregodjszapi: thanks for looking in to it :)13:00
javispedroRST38h, WHAT?13:00
RST38hWhat you have heard13:00
RST38h-2200 people at the Romanian factory13:01
djszapialterego: they said, it is not recommended to use dh_make, we should use /usr/bin/create-project or QtCreator.13:01
RST38h-1300 people from Location&Commerce13:01
griRST38h: Don't forget the german workers and the amount of money they announced to pump into NSN13:01
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RST38hWhat is NSN?13:02
grinokia siemens network13:02
djszapialterego: I cannot believe, they also reject git-buildpackage...13:03
DocScrutinizerkulve: MohammadAG did sth like that, beta2 / MSSF-policy broke it as13:03
khertanwho reject ? ovi store ?13:04
djszapialterego: unfortunately, we do not even have a package for that.13:04
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: messing with LED is way too dangerous, mustn't get allowed to users/mere-mortal-devels13:04
DocScrutinizerkulve: ^^^13:04
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griDocScrutinizer: You could make people blind with the LED :P13:05
RST38hrun it in bursts!13:05
kulveDocScrutinizer: ok, so there's no option in the UI for that. It's a bit annoying..13:07
javispedroprobably it is false that the N9 doesn't have a LED13:07
khertanthey protect it to avoid fake sms notification that invit you to a phishing web site ?13:07
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you could add that to , I'm not enough on topic to do it and I guess MohammadAG missed to add it13:07
javispedroit has one, it's just 1W13:07
javispedroand laser =)13:07
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: it's definitely false13:07
DocScrutinizerN9 has a monocolor LED13:07
DocScrutinizerlike N95013:08
DocScrutinizeraccording to schematics13:08
djszapiwhat is missing to the led ?13:08
djszapito get it controlled ?13:08
DocScrutinizerask MohammadAG - sth about dbus policy13:08
DocScrutinizercan't send to mce13:08
javispedrodjszapi, the mce::LEDControl token13:08
djszapiI could ask internally, if I get /precise/ details.13:09
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: much appreciated13:09
djszapiany snippet to reproduce the issue ?13:09
javispedroMohammadAG will probably have one when he comes in13:09
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG has an app that would work without that issue13:09
javispedrothis one's could be a good headstart13:10
DocScrutinizerdunno where he's "publishing"13:10
javispedroDocScrutinizer, btw nice catch about the LED thing13:11
khertandoes there is a way to run things as root on n9/n950, i mean if i want to make a package manager application is it possible ?13:11
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javispedrofortunately, the answer to that is yes13:11
khertani ask not for trolling ... i ll probably do one ...13:11
javispedroyou technically can make a package manager that goes through pkgmgrd13:12
khertanjavispedro: did you know if someone is doing one ?13:12
javispedrothe required tokens are available for both ovi and developer.13:12
djszapikhertan: ui or also a new daemon ?13:12
khertanno no ... Just ui13:12
khertanthere is enough daemon13:12
griwasn't there someone creating the "community app downloader"?13:12
khertanthe thing is that the default ui didin't event list available package13:13
javispedroyeah, replacing pkgmgrd itself is more .... UNpossible ;P13:13
khertanjust installed one13:13
khertanwhich is quite annoying13:13
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djszapiactually, I am now wondering whether my Qt backend would work, probably not.13:13
khertanof course there is ovistore ... but it list only ovistore rss app13:13
djszapiI wrote last year a qt package manager...13:13
khertandjszapi: in qml ?13:14
* gri also did a package lister in qml but for maemo some time ago13:14
djszapikhertan: no, it was mostly an experimental project, and I was satisfied with the cli frontend, but Ui should even be easier.13:14
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djszapiit would not work though, since /etc/init/ is integrity protected for instance.13:15
djszapisorry, etc13:15
javispedrothere's this too
javispedrobut I'm not sure pkgrmgrd implements packagekit API13:15
djszapiit does not.13:16
djszapithey rejected that from the day first.13:16
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javispedrooh well.13:16
khertanoh nice harmattan package-manager is closed source13:17
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griDoes someone know if ovi checks where the package installs the binaries? So may I get rejected for installing binaries to /usr/bin instead of /opt/myapp/bin?13:20
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khertanoh there is still people interested in publish things to ovi13:20
khertani'm surprized13:20
djszapigri: they do not published how they defend. That is something I was asking more times previously.13:21
djszapiand they do not provide a test ovi either ;)13:21
djszapidid not publish*13:21
griThis means they don't care as long as the package has description and the app can't be started twice?13:21
khertansomeone know where i can found documentation about packagemgrd ?13:21
djszapigri: no, it means, the analyze procedure is in secret afaik13:22
griOk ? :(13:22
khertangri: if you are trying to publish open source app can i suggest you the community obs ?13:23
djszapiI am sure they would consider my deny allow package as ham.13:23
grikhertan: The community obs is not visible to "normal" users like my gf13:23
djszapikhertan: community obs cannot grant credentials.13:23
djszapikhertan: and as gri said, yes :(13:23
djszapi*certain credentials13:23
khertangri: but you well not get more visibility with ovi store too ... hard to found something between rss apps13:24
djszapithat is also another subject about OVI I dislike, they do not provide enough room for the community repository, like the extra for N90013:24
DocScrutinizergri: I couldn't care less about your grandfather, though he's probably a nice man :-P13:24
khertangri: you can install the community repository with one web click13:24
griDocScrutinizer: He is a very nice man :)13:25
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grikhertan: I also would like the statistics ovi seems to offer13:26
grikhertan: But true about rss apps ? they should be banned to their own category13:26
gri"rss apps" -> "social", "crime"13:27
DocScrutinizerok, where's the URL to get that new SDK?13:27
griDocScrutinizer: "Qt SDK Update Utility"?13:27
DocScrutinizeryes that one13:27
griif you already have a sdk installed, that should be somewhere on your disk13:28
DocScrutinizerI don't13:28
DocScrutinizerstill saving ham from my bread to get me another HDD with free space13:28
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griYou could save the bread and it the ham instead13:30
DocScrutinizerI have to get another dose of valium to survive the mere number of possible downloads on that qt site13:31
DocScrutinizerwhile probably 90% are irrelevant junk for harmattan development13:31
grieat not it btw.13:31
djszapihow many N900s were sold ?13:32
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: YOU should know NOBODY here knows, or isn't allowed to tell if he did13:32
griDocScrutinizer: Be prepared to also need a scratchbox sdk for downloading packages which are missing in the qt sdk for harmattan :/13:32
SpeedEvildjszapi: Over 150k in the first 5 weeks I think is the only thing that was ever officially stated13:33
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djszapiSpeedEvil: okay, thanks.13:33
SpeedEvilSo half a million is probably somewhat conservative13:33
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: there are sales statistics on launchpad13:34
DocScrutinizerdunno if they inclode numbers for N90013:34
griA interesting number would also be: How many N900s are still alive13:34
DocScrutinizergri: hehe13:35
SpeedEvilgri: Nokia have that number too - at least statistically13:35
DocScrutinizers(alive/in use/13:35
SpeedEvilgri: They are _still_ paying me for an ongoing user survey.13:35
SpeedEvil(10 pounds/3mo)13:35
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SpeedEvilIt's a framework that logs every app launch, signal change, ...13:36
SpeedEvilIt's possible the person in charge of the program got canned, and nobodies turned it off.13:36
DocScrutinizernow how many tickets are open against that spyware?13:36
SpeedEvilBut - hey - free money.13:36
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: It's not spyware if it actually tells you what it's doing.13:36
SpeedEvilAlso - the bug I reported against it got fixed within a week.13:37
DocScrutinizereven more likely there should be tickets open against it?13:37
grin950's can be tracked by the ovi notification service :)13:37
DocScrutinizerfriggin shit13:37
griatleast I can see how many people have my app running13:37
SpeedEvil(on boot, it would change permissions on /home - breaking ssh13:37
DocScrutinizernow we know how to make bugs get fixed13:37
DocScrutinizersimply link them to Nokia spyware somehow13:37
khertanuh ?13:38
khertanwhat is this spyware ?13:38
khertanwhere is the binary ?13:38
SpeedEvilkhertan: It's part of a panel I was asked to be part of.13:38
khertanis it protected by aegis ?13:38
SpeedEvilkhertan: Shortly after n900 launch.13:38
DocScrutinizerhahaha fremantle13:38
* DocScrutinizer dances and sings "no aegis on fremantle"13:39
khertanas we are on harmattan i think it was a harmattan thing13:39
SpeedEvilAmusingly - integrating all of the rebates and bonuses from participating, my n900 has I think cost me about 80 pounds.13:39
khertandid you also got memory full notification on your n950 ?13:39
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khertanSpeedEvil: mine cost me 0 ;) i sell it the same price i bought it :)13:40
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-29 12:34:51] <gri> A interesting number would also be: How many N900s are still alive13:40
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-29 12:35:05] <DocScrutinizer> gri: hehe13:40
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-29 12:35:09] <SpeedEvil> gri: Nokia have that number too - at least statistically13:40
khertanDocScrutinizer: thx :)13:40
DocScrutinizergri: SpeedEvil: btw Nokia needs no spyware for *that* - RMA statistics are sufficient13:41
DocScrutinizerand Nokia has damn precise numbers about that, you bet13:42
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Well - yes and no13:42
DocScrutinizerlet's try it:13:42
infobotfrom memory, rma is Return Materials Authorisation, or the process you go through when you want to return a dead part to a manufacturer in exchange for a new one13:42
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: RMA tells you about inuse * personcaresabout * failurepercentage13:42
SpeedEvil* knowsaboutwarranty13:42
djszapimmm, ovi policies are decided by OVI, and I guess they did not want to check manually whether a code abuses the led control or not and pissing the user off.13:43
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DocScrutinizerdjszapi: c'mon - abusing the LED? pissing off user??13:43
djszapiDocScrutinizer: yes, heavy blinking for instance13:43
* DocScrutinizer gets heavy headache from heavy LED blinking13:44
djszapiit is not about headache, it is about something a user would not like (for instance me)13:44
DocScrutinizeradmit it, it's a plain old bug in policy13:44
djszapimeaning that OVI should check every single code for that what they do with it and why. I bet they did not have enough resource for that.13:45
javispedrolet's drop the topic, we already know how it ends13:45
TronicCannot do that with status led but blinking the camera LEDs is fine? :)13:45
TronicMaybe you could use those for your status messages.13:45
* javispedro rofls13:45
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: please don't argue silly - there's way worse things *every* app could do, than just telling mce to please enable PatternMessageArrived13:46
djszapiactually, I just stop helping, I do not even ask it internally, thanks for calling silly, kindly.13:46
DocScrutinizerplus I say more users would like the LED to do *anything useful* rather than sitting there dead13:47
djszapiwhy I try to figure out the reason and help YOU.13:47
javispedrosee why I said drop the topic13:47
djszapibut, okay, I am now stopping it.13:47
griThe blinking led was a pretty cool thing about the n900. No need to turn on the display :)13:48
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: sorry I used the wrong letters to phrase a completely reasonable concern and thus insulted your delicate feelings13:48
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: special bonus goes to you, for negating each good thing you contribute with a statement so agonizing and defending whatever silly decision anybody inside Nokia did with "I do like it just that way"13:50
djszapican anybody tell me which statement of mine defended this led issues ?13:51
DocScrutinizerhere you are: >>... it is about something a user would not like (for instance me)<<13:51
djszapinext post: 13:45 < djszapi> meaning that OVI should check every single code for that what they do with it and why. I bet they did not have enough resource for that.13:52
djszapiit does not mean I like they are not checking it, I just mentioned a possible reason.13:52
djszapiplease do not misinterpret it.13:52
DocScrutinizerI *BET* 95% of users would like mohammad's LED driver to notify about new msgs better than a Policy that blocks such efforts completely "to not anny users"13:52
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: that's obviously the problem, some of us tend to misinterpret pretty much each other statement of yours13:54
djszapisure...people would like to get heavily blinking leds after downloading an application from ovi, sure...without being able to stop it..13:54
DocScrutinizerI dunno how that could be helped13:54
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djszapithat is probably the 95, yes.13:54
djszapisorry, but this was another issue again, you scared me out of helping anything internally.13:54
javispedrodjszapi has his opinion and has been proven to be impossible to change.13:55
javispedrowe have ours, he says we are out of touch with reality, we say he's the one out of touch13:55
DocScrutinizerthat's why it scares me when he even picks up a topic13:56
javispedrowe argue, throw again the same points over and over again13:56
javispedroand retry the next day13:56
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javispedrowhich is why I'm not touching the topic with a ten foot pole13:56
DocScrutinizerso you suggest I should finally go back to using /ignore ?13:57
javispedrounless on the other side there's someone that could understand that yes, users can sometimes prefer the "heavy lights" (whatever that is)13:57
javispedroDocScrutinizer, no, there are topics other than aegis.13:58
djszapiit is not even aegis topics13:58
DocScrutinizerthis time for real13:58
javispedrobut he's right, though, it's not "aegis" perse.13:58
javispedroit's OVI policy, whose managers are probably even harder to reach13:59
javispedrowe just put everything on the same bag ;P13:59
DocScrutinizerit doesn't matter who's to reach when the dude you're talking to says he would get annoyed by mohammad's app and thus prefers the device policy forbids it as he claims he doesn't know how to "stop it"14:00
javispedrosee above14:00
DocScrutinizeryou wouldn't expect such dude to do anything about the issue, no matter if those damagers are reachable or not14:01
javispedrofor the time being, I'm putting the usecase on the wiki and hoping that someone who understands will have a look.14:01
artemmahe'd also not know how to stop chat messages popping up all the time :)14:01
artemmauninstallation should be able to stop and undo everything for any decent app14:01
djszapiartemma: except that you can do anything from maintainer script14:02
djszapiand ovi check will pass it.14:02
DocScrutinizeryou might get scared though about this dude might find there's possibly a workaround to still operate the LEDs and would fix it - esp when that dude claims he's in chage for the policy config somehow14:02
DocScrutinizerbtw >>[2011-09-29 12:43:08] <djszapi> mmm, ovi policies are decided by OVI, and I guess they did not want to check manually whether a code abuses the led control or not and pissing the user off.<< **I GUESS** WTF?!? thanks for the help!14:05
javispedronote that I too believe the LED thing to be _in error_, even if by design error.14:05
javispedroAs e.g. an application is free to use the vibrator, or the Flash LEDs, as said above.14:05
javispedroAn a non-stopping vibrator is more annoying plus potentially device breaking.14:05
javispedrotbh, the library used for vibrator might have a max duration14:06
javispedroI think that's the case.14:06
javispedrobut still you're allowed to trigger it whenever you want.14:06
* RST38h points out that Nokia 5800 had a firmware (not updated for ~6 months) that often left it stuck, with vibrator turned on14:06
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: mce patterns all have a max duration to set14:06
RST38hHOw is any security framework going to protect you against that>14:06
djszapiI have never said I agree with those abuses.14:07
javispedrodjszapi, which ones, that they forbid the leds or, that they allow the vibrator? ;)14:07
javispedrocause I'm still somewhat expecting that what will happen is that the next firmware will forbid vibrator and flash LEDs, just in case!14:08
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: let's face the facts, djszapi pulled a reason out of his arse to justify a bug in policy, then got stinky when we said it's not exactly a good reason14:08
khertanTizen SDK :
javispedrokhertan, WAC?14:08
RST38hkhertan: Cannot be. You know why?14:08
javispedroah, it's a joke =)14:09
djszapijavispedro: I am rejecting how the OPI is happening to be.14:09
macmaNanybody here know if its possible to augment the lock screen with information from media player? id like to have now playing info there.14:09
RST38hBecause it would require IE! =)14:09
djszapiI would expect more quality where your questions would be outdated.14:09
khertanRST38h: :)14:09
djszapiso that everybody could be happy with proper quality, and they could use the things if they do not abuse the system14:09
javispedrodjszapi, well, I think this is a quite minor thing that for a change someone from Ovi could show some good faith and potentially enable.14:10
RST38hDoc: I disagree on the "got stinky" part. Never stopped.14:10
javispedrodjszapi, this is not sys_admin or some other virtually hole through the security policy. just led control.14:11
djszapijavispedro: well, I am a security guy, what do you expect ? Bad quality applications going out ? :)14:11
javispedroto prove _something_ can be done14:11
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: now this is a 20ft pole then? ;-)14:11
javispedroDocScrutinizer, touché.14:11
* RST38h asserts the number of IRC messages spent to justify/reject the use of Aegis to prohibit LED control, since this morning14:12
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: prepare for next fw release getting access to all leds, vibrator, and LCD locked14:12
* RST38h sighs in disbelief14:12
javispedroDocScrutinizer, yeah, I've not yet discard that could happen..14:12
javispedrowell, LCD ;P14:12
DocScrutinizerthat's why djszapi scares me each time he says a word14:12
artemmaindeed, most of apps can use LCD for showing things not every manager knows how to stop. Oups14:13
javispedrodjszapi, you should have been there when that script kiddie came and starting talking the usual "every system is crackable" speech14:13
javispedro*started giving14:13
javispedrodjszapi, would have put you in a quite bad mood =)14:14
javispedros/there/here :P14:14
RST38hjavispedro: Wait until Harmattan does get cracked and every script kiddie and non-script non-kiddie out there jailbreaks it14:15
khertanevery os is crackable with a good hammer :)14:15
RST38hjavispedro: guaranteed to give djzsapi the eternal damnation of butt pain14:16
djszapijavispedro: well, not really, that is true (I know many aegis issues yet to get tcb anyways)14:16
djszapibut it does not mean I do not try to move toward the safest and best quality solution.14:17
khertanissue that require a sledgehammer ?14:17
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djszapino, what javispedro said: "every system is crackable"14:17
javispedrobut still, just look at android forum today14:18
macmaNwhat hapened today14:18
djszapijavispedro: link ?14:18
javispedrodjszapi, xda developers for ex14:19
javispedroeither official holes are teared through the system now, or the daily conversation casual topic will become "how did you root that phone?"14:19
javispedrowhich is sth I'd like to avoid.14:19
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djszapijavispedro: I would have helped with the issue, if it is a bug, and not my guess.14:19
SpeedEvilEasily rootable phones that are casually rooted by 'power users' are _evil_.14:20
SpeedEvilFrom a free software POV.14:20
* DocScrutinizer sighs - even from the few lines that still appear on his screen14:20
RST38hwhat is free software POV?14:20
SpeedEvilEspecially if they warez-like nonsense like cyanogenmod14:20
javispedroRST38h, this is the "pirated windows is damaging free operating systems" argument14:21
javispedro(I personally agree with it)14:21
djszapijavispedro: ?14:21
macmaNpot of view14:21
RST38hjavispedro: ah14:21
RST38hjavispedro: but you are paying for the freaking phone, ain't you?14:21
SpeedEvilRST38h: From a point of view of the ecology of free sotware. Needs users, and devs. Distracting either to rooted platforms is harmful14:21
javispedrodjszapi, for example. the first thread -- rom bible -- about cracking14:21
javispedroand many others14:21
RST38hjavispedro: and there is no way you can install a usable linux on it14:22
djszapiok, will skim tonight14:22
javispedroRST38h, but it means that a platform that tries to promote openess (argably Nokia's) has to compete with a platform that doesn't, but everyone does it illegaly14:23
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SpeedEvilRST38h: usable linux isn't the only distraction of rootable platforms. Many devs are distracted to doing stuff with rooted android phones, that is not productive.14:24
RST38hjavispedro: ah ok14:24
javispedroso the conversation goes like "buy a n900, you can run XXX on it!" "but I can on my existing $DROID_PHONE after installing $WHATEVERS_TODAYS_CYANOGED_CRAP_IS!"14:24
RST38hjavispedro: well, nokia neither promotes openness nor competes with other platforms nowadays, so it is all historic now14:24
javispedroyes, that's sadly true.14:24
javispedroand one of the reasons for the many aegis discussions here.14:24
javispedros/aegis/"security policy" ;P14:24
DocScrutinizerme considers a blind +q *14:25
RST38hSpeedEvil: I have yet to see anyone doing any intelligent development for Android14:25
RST38hSpeedEvil: All I am seeing is 1) fart apps 2) crude ports of the existing open sourced projects14:25
* DocScrutinizer can't find a pole long enough to touch this chan, gave up at ~100ft14:26
djszapiinteresting, one guy told me that (not from OVI), the led control is forbidden on purpose since it is close to the hardware operation14:26
djszapiand it can be abused in a way, it ruins other hardware parts.14:27
khertanhum interesting ...14:27
RST38hMeanwhile: HP has rented the services of Goldman Sachs Group to fend off any potential activist investors seeking to rock the boat.14:27
javispedrothat's probably a bug then14:27
khertanwe should remove write access on fs too ... it can be abuse to fuckup the flash14:27
javispedrothe token is "LedControl", not "RuinDeviceControl" ;P14:27
RST38hDoc: Simply ignore him14:27
DocScrutinizerlooking at backscroll since ~4h ago I'm damn convinced some user here is a friggin help to general harmattan development14:27
RST38hDoc: Until someone bans him again14:27
DocScrutinizerRST38h: I did since *plonk* - this time for real14:28
RST38hjavispedrO: btw, is it notification led or the flash led?14:28
javispedroRST38h, notification, flash seems to be wide accesible14:28
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DocScrutinizeruntil next "fix" djszapi pushes14:29
RST38hjavispedro: sounds opposite to what one would suspect: you may be able to overload and burn the flash led but why prohibit notification?14:29
javispedroRST38h, you know, we've been having this argument for the past half an hour ;P14:29
djszapiyes, they confirmed it, and they repeated actually what I said above. It can mess up the many signals already existing and other things.14:30
macmaNDocScrutinizer: care to elaborate on the exact meaning of the "some user" part14:30
SpeedEvildjszapi: MCE does the LED control though.14:30
javispedrodjszapi, well, thanks for relaying that.14:30
djszapiSpeedEvil: MCE is a platform software.14:30
javispedrodjszapi, but, could that be considered a bug?14:30
SpeedEvildjszapi: So if anything can convince MCE to do that, it's a bug.14:31
djszapijavispedro: why do you always guess the best about developers ? This is something I never understand14:31
javispedro"guess the best"?14:31
SpeedEvilIf you can simply tell MCE to flash the LED, that argument is flawed.14:31
djszapijavispedro: imho, it is just a compromise among the hardware developers (read as in for instance, to not have bigger hardware in sizes, etc)14:31
javispedroI usually guess the worst, because I'm one ;P14:31
djszapijavispedro: sorry, *worst14:31
RST38hjavispedro: he is talking nonsense. the notification led is basically connected to a GPIO or a PWM output. Has no other connections.14:31
RST38hjavispedro: and yes, you never control it directly even in maemo5, you ask MCE and MCE controls it14:32
javispedroI know, I'm trying to follow.14:32
RST38hjavispedro: he is feeding us bullshit, I am afraid14:32
DocScrutinizerRST38h: the notification LED is connected to a LP5523 LED controller with pattern engines14:33
RST38hmaybe it works on their middle management though14:33
DocScrutinizermce controlls that controller14:33
DocScrutinizeruser sends a dbus msg to mce and asks for a predefined pattern14:33
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DocScrutinizeraegis^Wpolicy is forbidding this dbus msg14:34
javispedrodjszapi, either way, we might lack information, but with the one we have we consider that to be a potential bug in MCE. We think that interacting with the LED should not cause any problem with any other component, and that was the case in fact on the N900.14:34
khertanthe real reason is that evil developper could use it to write subliminal message in user brain14:34
RST38hmake it flash so that it reveals user's location to the thugs!14:34
djszapijavispedro: look, I have been told by hardware developers, that is one reason.14:35
djszapijavispedro: since, I am not a hardware developer, and they made it, I completely trust them.14:35
* DocScrutinizer farts on pondering what the chan would look like to him without ignore list14:35
djszapijavispedro: on the other hand, they confirmed my guesses that I made from teh beginning.14:35
javispedrodjszapi, could we somehow ask for more public information on that? maybe they'd follow if we'd filled this bug in ?14:35
RST38hWhich is "whatever developer does ot the device is going to be potentially dangerous"?14:36
DocScrutinizerRST38h: to the point, exactly and 100%14:36
lizardogeneric question: has anyone seen a N9 selling (not pre-selling) anywhere already? Just curious how fast they actually are on shipping to the stores14:36
djszapijavispedro: you can always fill bugs. However, led control is probably not the most important task, but go for it.14:36
khertanRST38h: hum ... i understand now the reason of tizen : html5 only14:36
javispedrodjszapi, I understand it's not important. But I thought it would be easy.14:36
RST38hoh, you can do a lot of damage with properly written javascript...14:37
javispedrodjszapi, if something that externally looks as simple as led control will take such a lot of energy,14:37
khertanRST38h: they talk about html5 ... they could not provide js engine in the runtime14:37
javispedrothen aiming for stuff like sys_admin ....14:37
djszapijavispedro: is it easy to redesign the hardware ?14:37
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you got trapped, pal!!14:37
javispedrodjszapi, I am yet to understand why is it a hardware problem.14:37
SpeedEvildjszapi: The hardware devlopers statement is not consistent with the released schematics.14:37
RST38halso not consistent with the sw architecture which has MCE in between14:38
djszapijavispedro: sorry, but I cannot spend more time with it that I could help.14:38
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: please, that's all made up (though I'm not able to read it as I couldn't stand it)14:38
javispedroMCE could also abstract whatever the "dangerous" part is and leave only LED control14:38
javispedrodjszapi, ok.14:38
SpeedEvildjszapi: The indicator LED is connected through a diode, to an output only of the charger circuitry which indicates emergency charging. It's also connected to the LED controller chip. This is the only connections to the indicator LED.14:38
RST38hand the led controller chip is individually addressable14:39
djszapiSpeedEvil: which part of that you did not understand I am not a hardware developer ? :)14:39
djszapi(not that I ever want to)14:39
RST38hdjszapi: Ok, then who are you and what makes you speak on Nokia's behalf here?14:39
khertandjszapi: and if a hardware developper ask you o jump ?14:39
macmaNlizardo: your question has been most interesting for a while :)14:40
DocScrutinizerI AM A HARDWARE DEVELOPER \o/14:40
djszapikhertan: sorry, but I do not have time for unneccesary arguements, how is it related ?14:40
djszapiI cannot know everything, and I do not even want to.14:40
javispedrodjszapi, well, no problem, that is just fine.14:40
djszapikhertan: you need to ask someone else, that is what I could help.14:40
djszapifor internal details.14:41
djszapifwiw, they also mentioned what I said from the beginning on the top of the hardware issue14:41
javispedrodjszapi, maybe you could forward our concerns to "them".14:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: are you finished with talking djszapi into tweaking policy to lock vibrator and flash LED and LCD content as well now?14:41
lizardomacmaN: but the silence may mean it has not shipped physically anywhere yet :) anyway, I expect to see people announcing everywhere whey they put their hands into a shiny new N914:42
macmaNlizardo: where r u14:42
DocScrutinizerlizardo: here the shops say week4214:42
macmaNlizardo: im a bit south of finland14:42
macmaNaka estonia14:42
lizardomacmaN: Brazil :( will take a while to appear here I'm afraid (IIRC N900 appeared on regular stores more than a year after announcement)14:42
djszapimce design is also by purpose like that.14:43
DocScrutinizerlizardo: customs took that time to process the import14:43
djszapiyou are not allowed to control from that direction either.14:43
javispedroDocScrutinizer, I do not want to later be told that I did not try all possible ways.14:43
djszapi(design, not mentioning bugs, if any!)14:44
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: it's evidently useless14:44
javispedrodjszapi, this is all about trying to change things, hopefully for the better.14:44
javispedrobe it design, implementation.14:44
khertani vote for forbidding developper to use memory and filesytem, it could potentially fuck off the device14:44
lizardoDocScrutinizer: very possible :) brazillians are receiving their N950 just now! (fortunately I asked to send mine to a friend who was in Finland... arrived a few weeks ago)14:44
macmaNlizardo: customs didnt rape you for extra charges for that?14:45
abinaderlizardo: and is going to be again next week :) hehe14:45
lizardoLooks like customs were trying to tax something that is explictly labeled "not for sale" on it :(14:45
DocScrutinizerkhertan: using flash storage could - using mce to control indicator LED definitely can NOT14:45
lizardomacmaN: when you bring a single (or maybe two?) cellphone for personal use, that is not a problem14:46
javispedrolizardo, after that they usually try to tax you even more for their "inconvenience"14:46
khertanDocScrutinizer: yeah this is why i reclaim restriction on flash storage ... harmattan isn't secure enough !14:46
DocScrutinizerbut I didn't see the turn in djszapi 's argumentation from "pisses off users (like me)" to "could harm the device" - luckily14:46
khertan because you see an argumentation ?14:47
khertantheir is some blabla14:47
DocScrutinizernot exactly, no14:47
khertanbut none arguments14:47
DocScrutinizeri see a "I GUESS..." and that's about it14:48
djszapisandst1: From the code, I could read out: When the dpkg-wrapper updates the restok.conf file, it does it by first storing a new version as and then renaming it to restok.conf. The new copy is first signed by the "tcb" credential. This error sounds like the dpkg-wrapper doesn't get "tcb" which accli is supposed to inherit, so it is unable to sign the new version.14:49
DocScrutinizerbut of course we don't have the right to query guesses of such savvy inner-circle contributors14:49
djszapisandst1: First check the error logs for anything aegis-related. You could also send the current /var/lib/restok.conf file or check that the dpkg-wrapper (/usr/bin/dpkg) has been assigned the "tcb" credential. The third thing to check is that the hash of /usr/bin/dpkg matches that in the refhash files.14:49
DocScrutinizerif they think there should be no app allowed to ask mce to activate PatternSMS then that's a commandment to us mere mortals14:50
faenildjszapi: I keep on wondering, why are you the only one who answers such questions? Why isn't there any Nokian in here?14:52
RST38hMaybe we should ask qgil who the djszapi guy is and what he is doing here14:52
djszapifaenil: it would indeed be easier if others could be there. One person can easily become antagonist. :)14:53
StskeepsRST38h: i was more pondering corporate security14:53
djszapifaenil: well, let us discuss it in private.14:53
RST38hWhether his statements can be interpreted as the official statements by Nokia14:53
RST38hStskeeps: I do not know anyone in Nokia's corp security. Besides it constitutes a cruel/unusual punishment14:53
macmaNso... who is able to update to Foursquare 0.13.1 here? anybody?14:55
macmaNwondering if Store cdn is failing14:56
SpeedEvilmacmaN: Started installation for the first time.14:58
SpeedEvilOh - that's new14:58
SpeedEvil'battery too low to complete installation'14:58
macmaNwdym though, you didnt have it installed at all before?14:59
SpeedEvilmacmaN: It's now in some confused state that I'm not sure what it's doing15:00
SpeedEvilmacmaN: Ah - installed15:00
macmaNim just getting download error, installation package not found15:01
macmaNwondering if i should uninstall, or if it has any effect15:03
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SpeedEvilWell - it worked for me15:05
macmaNi have already spent more money on harmattan apps in two weeks than i have on android and desktop combined in a few years15:05
macmaNmeaning i bought gpodder and pinball fantasies15:05
* SpeedEvil would have too.15:05
SpeedEvil(angry birds)15:05
SpeedEvilBut the purchase link is broken15:05
SpeedEvilWhich - with actual devices hitting consumers hands...15:06
macmaNSpeedEvil: well you can.. for about 500€ :>15:06
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macmaNSpeedEvil: oh oh, uninstalling foursquare first fixed something. its now properly downloading it from the store.15:07
macmaNi wonder when 4sq will appear in Feeds15:08
macmaNhaha! apparently with 0.13 it does!15:09
macmaNbut apparently there are no controls  for it in the settings panel15:10
macmaNunless it requires a reboot or something15:10
sandst1djszapi: ok, thanks. i'll keep those in mind in case the phone goes to a craazy state again :P15:11
djszapiSpeedEvil: which led were they talking about btw ? Any of the three or some special one ?15:11
djszapiback can be by the camera15:14
djszapicould you control the front led on N900 ?15:14
djszapisomeone keeps telling me, it is the same on n900.15:14
khertan(14:14:04) djszapi: could you control the front led on N900 ? < yes15:15
djszapidocumentation ?15:15
* artemma is sick with twitter polluting his notifications feed. Why nobody thought about limiting it to specific list(s)?15:15
macmaNartemma: yes, totally agreed. list support is essential.15:16
KaadlajkI would like to have upcoming calendar events in the feed15:16
artemmain fact I am thinking abt disabling twitter notifications completely15:16
artemmait's a pity there's no Gravity for harmattan. Surviving with TwimGo meanwhile15:17
macmaNKaadlajk: could possibly be implemented with an external tool?15:18
KaadlajkmacmaN: probably yeah, you can access calendar events with mkcal and kcalcoren15:19
Kaadlajkhavent looked how the feed works15:19
djszapikhertan: please provide a small snippet I can run on N900 for led blinking, if you can.15:19
leinirhmm... the twitter client needs to not scroll down automatically when you do a manual refresh...15:19
macmaNleinir: scroll up or down? im finding it mondo annoying when you open an item in the client and then feed loses your position when you come back to it.15:20
macmaNthere needs to be a Clear All button too15:21
macmaNits impossible to keep track of read items otherwise15:21
macmaNunless you have like your grandmother in all your feeds only15:21
leinirmacmaN: quick description - you're at the top, you pull down to cause a refresh, and the refresh now stays scrolled at the top, rather than focused on the current items15:21
leinirit's as though they looked at Plume and copied about half of that feature ;)15:21
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SpeedEvildjszapi: The notification LED on the front15:23
djszapiSpeedEvil: there are two leds on the front.15:23
djszapiboth notify something, which one do you think of ?15:24
djszapitop or bottom ?15:24
macmaNi am noticing im using the shortcut bar about 0.5x/6mo time15:24
SpeedEvilThere is only one notification LED I can see on the n9 schematic.15:24
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djszapiSpeedEvil: I am not checking the led, tell me which one on the device.15:25
djszapinot checking the schematic*15:25
djszapiyou should probably check the board design, not the schematic for that...15:26
SpeedEvilI do not have a N9 to hand.15:26
SpeedEvilAs far as I'm aware, there is only one LED on the front of the n95015:26
djszapiI see 2.15:26
djszapior maybe the top is not led, well I do not know, I am not a hardware guy.15:27
faenildjszapi: the led they're talking about is the one which blinks when you're charging the n95015:27
SpeedEvilThere are the LED, the camera, the touch sensor15:27
djszapisorry, the bottom is the camerae15:27
djszapifront camera, that is not led15:27
SpeedEviland the ambient light sensor, I'm unsure where that is15:27
DocScrutinizerpretty please can we just forget about that topic, it's sufficiently covered with javispedro including it to - no need to help with tightening policy for N915:28
djszapiso you were talking about the top one then.15:28
SpeedEvilOr if it's integrated into the touch sensro15:28
faenilDoc, your attitude is irritating, please.15:28
faenilyes the top one, at least that's what I saw blinking in mohammadAg's video on youtube15:28
DocScrutinizerno, this channel is irritating, once you set the most unbearable posts to /ignore15:29
faenilokay once you set what you want to /ignore, you're good to go15:29
DocScrutinizerat least as long as others didn't15:29
faenilif you don't want to join the discussion, please just be polite, no need to keep saying the same things again and again. Djszapi is not here to make our life worse, on the contrary.15:30
faenilDocScrutinizer: nothing personal against you, ;)15:30
DocScrutinizerthe problem is no matter what he's in for, he actually *does* make our lifes worse15:31
faenilDocScrutinizer: I'd like to see you alone against a bunch of angry people which do nothing but attack15:32
macmaNDocScrutinizer: maybe youve argued with djszapi more than i have managed to monitor, but i have not noticed that djszapi is the majority voter on these product security problems. has it been quantified to a meaningful point how much of a part djszapi specifically plays in the decision making puzzle?15:33
djszapimacmaN: I do not decide, just propose.15:33
djszapiI am a developer only. :)15:33
DocScrutinizerpfff, sorry but when I would claim such BS like "blinking LED (as of mce doing what it's designed for) can piss users (like me)" then probably I'd deserve a bunch of angry people attacking me15:34
macmaNdjszapi: yep, but your proposal definitely influences decisions. for all intents and purposes it can be viewed as a single pie.15:34
djszapimacmaN: wrong. ;) Those are just my opinions. I actually even said I have no overview about the hardware issues or about the security policies.15:35
djszapimacmaN: I also claimed in the long thread here:
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DocScrutinizermacmaN: [2011-09-29 12:43:08] <djszapi> mmm, ovi policies are decided by OVI, and I guess they did not want to check manually whether a code abuses the led control or not and pissing the user off.  [2011-09-29 12:44:43] <djszapi> it is not about headache, it is about something a user would not like (for instance me)15:36
faenildjszapi: this is what we're talking about15:37
djszapifaenil: yeah, got it, thanks ;)15:37
faenilok ;)15:37
djszapiI wish this would be the biggest problem ever...15:37
macmaNoh. ok. then it is even more unfortunate that DocScrutinizer's energy goes to waste. maybe it would be more useful to organize an anti aegis piquet next to nokiaoffice, with a separate message for an hour each day of the week.15:38
DocScrutinizerclosing a virtual bug ticket "INVALID" on a "I guess" and "user wouldn't want (like me)" is mere paralyzing and not helping in any way15:38
StskeepsmacmaN: i'm so in15:38
macmaNStskeeps: for the protest march? :>15:39
djszapimacmaN: actually, I got confirmation for my guesses in the beginnings, so they seem to be correct. That is one reason of their why they would not like to allow.15:39
khertanmacmaN: or use energy to create a viable true Open Source Mobile OS ... without major corporate control like intel15:40
djszapibut yeah, about decisions to someone else :)15:40
djszapiwhere is this led problem to major issues out of security ...15:40
macmaNkhertan: i doubt software is the problem today so muchh. its the hardware part thats almost an insurmountable barrier apparently, unless you get some billionaire on board who could take it as a sport challeneg for himself.15:41
djszapimacmaN: there are open hardware projects.15:41
djszapiopen hardware communities, too.15:41
macmaNdjszapi:  if there was *anything* that was worth the time of reading about it, we probably wouldnt be sitting here sweating about the future of harmattan.15:42
khertanmacmaN: maybe hardware is a problem too, but today, software is the problem15:43
djszapimacmaN: yes, there are, for instance there is this open gnu jtagice to blackfin dspS15:43
macmaNkhertan: ok, url please to the hardware you would like to put your dream OS on15:43
djszapibut 2-3 years ago I was involved more in that area.15:43
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khertanmacmaN: drivers problem aren't hardware problem but software ...15:45
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vladestwhy any of qt apps on n950 takes hundreds of megz ?15:45
vladestaccording to top15:46
macmaNkhertan: :) ok. i consider hardware and driver level stuff a single problem.15:46
khertanvladest: because it s writing with a sledgehammer15:46
DocScrutinizeractually the point is those random nonsensical restrictions introduced by security policy (and possibly changing with every new firmware release, or even in between releases, on a random manner), that are not documented or explained or based on any sane rationale - they destroy the platform for commercial developers as they put a continuous risk on them that their app will cease to work on next change of policy, if it can get to work at15:46
DocScrutinizerall and not runs into any invisible roadblocker right away - consider MohammadAG's notification-LED app a good example for that. No commercial developer will want to take the risk to find out about some aegis rule breaks his app concept and renders it unfeasible, after manweeks of development went into that project15:46
khertanmacmaN: this is why you see it as hardware problem and me as software15:46
fluxvladest, determining process size in linux is difficult. especially the vsize, which I imagine is the number you are looking for, can get very big.15:46
macmaNkhertan: there is no meaning of one without another15:46
khertanmacmaN: of course15:46
macmaNbut since you only show me N900 now, that lacks CPU power and RAM, does that show that there is really no hardware options.15:47
vladestflux: right, i'm looking at VSZ column15:47
fluxvladest, simply mapping 100 megabytes of libraries to process address space makes that number grow by 100 MB15:48
fluxvladest, but the code itself is shared between all processes that use the same libraries15:48
khertanDocScrutinizer: an other example, install community git package ... post install script call bash, wish isn't available, so you want to modify it to sh ... there is no need to use bash for this simple script ... you can't ... aegis voodoo ...15:48
khertanmacmaN: n950 ?15:48
vladestflux: so, its allocated but not comitted memory?15:49
khertanmacmaN: ... and 600Mhz cpu and 256Mo of ram is enough for devel a viable end user os15:49
kavachavladest it is shared15:49
kavachabetween every process that uses the libraries15:49
macmaNkhertan: true. but id consider n950 level power baselineish. its just too painful otherwise.15:49
kavachawell the ro sections15:49
kavachaof those libs15:49
fluxvladest, it may not even be allocated. it's mapped. it may reside on the block device actually.15:49
macmaNn950 is of course a fine pick, except manufacturing it is not in community control.15:50
khertanmacmaN: anyway, we can expect true open os to be available for different device15:50
fluxvladest, it is only allocated and copied to memory partially when its functions are called15:50
khertanmacmaN: indeed15:50
vladestok, then why after some time I can see message "memory low, close some apps" but VSZ is the same?15:50
vladesthow to check real commited memory size by process?15:51
fluxmaybe because your firmware might have less than perfect behavior regarding that message..15:51
vladestflux: my fw same as all others: beta2 :)15:51
faenilI have beta1 :)15:52
khertanvladest: i ve same message.15:52
khertanvladest: did you use fennec ?15:52
fluxvladest, indeed it's very difficult to answer that question. RSS is a bit closer to reality, though.15:52
vladestkhertan installed but not runned15:53
khertanbecause it s tend to drain memory over the time15:53
khertanvladest: using exchange ?15:53
vladestkhertan no15:53
vladestflux: RSS meant some column in top?15:53
fluxvladest, yes. resident size.15:54
fluxmight be 'RES' as well15:54
vladestflux: how to turn it on?15:54
fluxoh, didn't notice that it doesn't have that. well, you can maybe take a look /proc/pid/status15:55
vladestflux:  found :)15:56
khertanwhich pid is guilty ?15:59
vladestany ui stuff takes > 100mb of VSZ16:03
vladestcant find how to turn RSS on harmattan's top16:03
DocScrutinizeruse htop16:05
vladestDocScrutinizer where to get it?16:05
vladestalso there is an sp-memusage package16:05
DocScrutinizer  Installed: 0.8.3-2+0m616:06
DocScrutinizer  Candidate: 0.9-3+svn20110526-1+0m616:06
DocScrutinizer  Version table:16:06
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DocScrutinizer     0.9-3+svn20110526-1+0m6 016:06
DocScrutinizer        500 ./ Packages16:06
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DocScrutinizermem-cpu-monitor       memload               mem-monitor-smaps                mem-smaps-totals16:10
DocScrutinizermem-dirty-code-pages  mem-monitor           memory-game           mem-smaps-private16:10
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SpeedEvilvladest: settings -> security -> developer mode -> then you switch that switch, reboot, then you get a lot of packages listed under that16:10
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SpeedEvilWhich you can install one by one, installing htop16:11
vladestSpeedEvil: sure I did that16:11
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vladeststupid me :)16:12
RST38hSooo, what has been happening while I was drinking corporate koolaid?16:12
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DocScrutinizerhtop is under "utilities" at settings->security->developer_mode16:13
vladestDocScrutinizer yes, found. 10x16:14
DocScrutinizerhowever the category "Memory Analysis" probably has better tools for you :-)16:15
DocScrutinizerlike sp-memusage ;-D16:15
DocScrutinizeroh, thought you asked, but you stated it's there - nevermind16:16
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RST38hMeanwhile: Amazon has confirmed that its Kindle Fire 7in Android tablet can be rooted - and that it expects it will be soon enough.16:29
griRST38h, does it have the e-ink display and colors?16:31
khertangri:  IPS-LCD backlit display16:35
khertanno e-ink16:35
khertanbut omap 4 ! :)16:36
faenilbloody hell, thp is one of the winners!!! Congrats man!!! :D16:36
griWow, I know what I would do with the money :) -> new motorbike16:37
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gri"The Game Agency" win 25.000 and 20.000 ?! wow16:39
SpeedEvilWhich is THPs app?16:40
SpeedEvilAnd congrats16:40
griMong is mentioned as winning app16:40
DocScrutinizerI *love* that box:16:41
DocScrutinizer100%[=================================================================================>] 1,287,828,028 5.37M/s   in 2m 22s16:41
DocScrutinizer2011-09-29 15:40:33 (8.62 MB/s) - `' saved [1287828028/1287828028]16:41
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griDocScrutinizer: That's why your hdd is full?16:42
faenilthere are some people who won 2 or even 3 prizes...1) they're godlike programmers, 2) there were few people partecipating..16:42
DocScrutinizernot on that box out there16:42
grifaenil, They all receive prizes and I am not even finished with my damn app gonna hate it now :P16:43
DocScrutinizergri: I'd not want to open a remote X session to that box though16:43
faenilgri: XD16:43
DocScrutinizer(even as it has no X installed at all)16:43
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griDocScrutinizer: Why are you downloading the sdk to that box then?16:44
faenillesson starting in 15 mins...cya later guys16:44
DocScrutinizerfor the time when Nokia once again decides to silently revoke or change publicly available files16:44
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grilike the beta1 image? :D16:45
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DocScrutinizeralso server outages at Nokia infra aren't unknown - so if ever I decided to get that SDK on a weekend (the usual downtime for all Nokia servers) I can pull it at max speed from my own box16:47
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DocScrutinizerrather than waiting for somebody inside to fix things at monday morning16:48
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macmaNthere doesnt seem to be an ancien pond app for n95017:19
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grimacmaN, ancien?17:52
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khertandoes someone have port pygame to harmattan ?17:55
khertanthp: did you try to port pygame to harmattan ? :)17:55
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macmaNgri: ancient. the first entry in the appup winner page.17:57
grimacmaN, Ah, already forgot that :P18:00
djszapisivang o/18:00
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sivangdjszapi: hey18:02
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macmaNkhertan: hah, just what doctor ordered
macmaNkhertan: re our previous open device platform options discussion18:28
Sazpaimonsomeone just gave me a sheevaplug18:29
Sazpaimonwhat can I do with it18:29
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Venemoanyone knows what's an NFC "tag"?18:30
macmaNSazpaimon: nice! congrats! install gentoo18:31
leinirVenemo: They're very tiny, unpowered RFID chips with extremely little memory for data storage (between 96 and 512 bytes) that's used for transferring e.g. URLs to a device with an active NFC chip :)18:33
leinir(there's other types, but that's the basic one... type 3 will hold up to a meg of data, for example)18:34
Sazpaimoninstall gentoo18:36
Sazpaimonwhy do I want to install gentoo on a 1.2ghz arm machine18:36
SazpaimonI love gentoo, but arm isnt really made for fast compilation18:36
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macmaNSazpaimon: well you x-compile on your quadcore of course :>18:37
Sazpaimonnow we're getting silly18:38
macmaNand get to enjoy all the awesomely smoothly cross compiling packages18:38
macmaNsuch as perl, ython and other friends18:38
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Sazpaimonplus the portage tree alone is 500MB18:38
Sazpaimonsheevaplug only has a 512MB NAND18:39
Sazpaimonand if I need to install something i need to have a cross-compiling server running at all times18:40
macmaNSazpaimon: you can mount portage over network, or actually my preferred approach is to distribute portage on squashfs18:40
Sazpaimonkinda defeats the purpose18:40
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macmaNsquashed portage is 50MB18:41
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lardmanhmm, what's happened to the terminal?18:43
* lardman tries to remember whether he had to enable something last time he flashed18:43
macmaNlardman: install from settings18:43
macmaNdevmode is now explicitly enabled18:44
GeneralAntillesLotta scrollback18:44
GeneralAntillesAnything interesting?18:44
macmaNyes. thp won 25K.18:44
GeneralAntillesYeah, saw that on twitter (congrats, thp, timsamoff and conny!)18:44
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SpeedEvilWhat was thps app?18:45
GeneralAntillesThe pong clone18:45
lardmanhmm, installation interrupted messages, are these normal?18:46
* lardman reboots18:47
macmaNno, not normal18:48
* lardman tries again18:49
Venemoleinir, thx for the answer18:49
leinirVenemo: no problem :)18:49
lardmanhmm, not interested - 488kb left to download and not interested in continuing18:49
Venemoleinir, and what's the purpose of such a small chip?18:50
* lardman tries from the update page18:51
leinirVenemo: storing URLs and the like - vcards as well :)18:52
Venemoleinir, ah. so not an extemely useful piece of technology.18:52
leinirWell, the larger tags have more storage space - enough to store an app or somesuch18:53
Venemostill not extremely useful18:54
Venemoa pendrive + USB host sounds better. yes, arguably we have a lot less usb host devices than nfc devices.18:55
lardmanhmm, I'm stuck, can't manually update the sdk-connectivity-tool and trying to enable developer mode fails with 216kb to download now18:55
lardmanis the terminal app in the harmattan repo?18:57
lardmannot that that will really do much good if I can't install it somehow18:58
leinirVenemo: that takes a /lot/ more effort than people are generally willing to put into getting something for free, though - you are underestimating the laziness of the general consumer ;)18:58
npmplease don't tell me the 3500 nokia employees laid off today were working on harmattan/meego/qt...
Venemoleinir, yeah.19:00
npmhad enough bad news for one week19:00
Venemothere were never 3500 people on MeeGo, nor Harmattan, nor Qt, nor on all of them together. IMO.19:00
DocScrutinizernpm: just book it on same account19:00
berndhsof the 3500, 2200 are the manufacturing plant in Cluj/Romania19:01
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DocScrutinizerprobably manufacturing N9 ;-P19:01
VenemoDocScrutinizer, HAHAHAHA19:02
leinirVenemo: what does your opinion have to do with it? ;) If you must abbreviate something there, TMK is what you're trying to say ;)19:03
infoboti guess tmk is To My Knowledge19:03
Venemoleinir, you are correct :)19:03
berndhssure that would make sense. Nokia builds a plant, starts production in 2008, makes 92000 N9s and closes the plant :)19:03
* leinir thinks IMO is used too many places where it has nothing to do with that person's opinions and all to do with their knowledge or guesses ;)19:03
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sivangGeneralAntilles: what did they win it for? :)19:06
Venemoleinir, in fact, I have no actual knowledge of the number of people involved. but I don't think there were more than a few hundred involved in MeeGo.19:06
Venemohmmm... maybe Nokia fired all those people to be able to pay the 25 thousand USD for the winners? :P19:06
leinirVenemo: Hehe, in that case it'll be "i suspect" or "i guess" or something like that :)19:07
lardmanIf anyone has any ideas about how to recover from a failed enabling of dev mode I'd be glad to hear them before I reflash19:07
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Venemoleinir, OK!19:08
leinir,P5Bsa,P5D,P20Inglesh.gif.pagespeed.ce.yz8AS1xidX.gif <-- taht ;)19:08
sivangGeneralAntilles: was it for a development challenge ?19:08
Venemoleinir, sorry, English is not my native language.19:08
GeneralAntillessivang, yes19:08
GeneralAntillesOr whichever19:08
leinirVenemo: Nah, me neither - i know how frustrating it can be when you find yourself using it wrong, so i like to help :)19:08
sivangGeneralAntilles: oh nice, how many downloads?19:08
Venemoleinir, thx19:08
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: plonk?19:10
GeneralAntillesThe Pong clone19:11
DocScrutinizerooh :-D19:11
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sivangpong clone :)19:14
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GeneralAntillesHrm, metatypedeclarations.h not found19:30
* GeneralAntilles prods QtSDK19:30
deimostoday after updating QtSDK, my app on desktop starts in portrait mode and orientationlock doesn't works. How to start it in landscape ?19:31
sivanganybody here might have an idea to a good web framework to handle social gps data?19:32
sivang(e,g. location give my handset clients)19:32
* sivang looks at GeoDjango19:32
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lardmandoes anyone know whether a reset will remove packages that aren't part of the default install, or if it's a case of just reflashing?19:43
djszapiN9reflash or delete19:44
lardmanno term, so can't delete afaict19:44
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RST38hmoo, lardman, fiferboy, cepiperez19:46
ieatlintinstall terminal then19:46
lardmanieatlint: how can I do that?19:46
fiferboymoo RST38h19:46
lardmanhi RST38h19:46
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* RST38h has got all of his Harmattan apps published on Ovi today19:48
lardmancongrats :)19:49
* lardman downloads the flasher and goes to get a glass of wine while he waits19:49
GeneralAntillesAnybody got a .deb of javispedro's sowatch hanging around?19:51
GeneralAntillesBuild is failing here.19:51
GeneralAntillesOr any tips for this?
fiferboyGeneralAntilles, I got my changes into fbreader19:53
RST38hlooks like your MADDE misses a component19:54
RST38htry Platorm SDK instead? =)19:55
GeneralAntillesDon't have it handy19:55
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sivangIf anybody has done a location based app here before, I would guess that the backend just holds the co-ordinates and the handset client visualizes them on a map right?20:00
RST38hMeanwhile: Killer US cantaloupes expected to infect more people20:00
sivangso I just need a db with support for storing this kind of data20:00
sivangmee RST38h20:00
sivangfor searching if some stuff are near by, I need support to ask that from the db, so I need spatial extension like spatialite right?20:01
RST38hBTW, anyone knows if the SPARQL access component is included with the 2nd Harmattan update?20:01
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djszapiN9lardman delete over ssh ?20:08
lardmandjszapiN9: can't install sshd20:09
lardmanit fails installing the dev tool stuff20:09
sivangRST38h: sparql is for searching over the whole device index right?20:09
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RST38hOk, a question20:42
RST38hapt-get upgrade tells me that the following packages have been kept back:20:42
RST38hduicontrolpanel-privatemodeapplet libarchive1 libcairo2 libgcrypt11 libgpg-error0 libnotificationsystem0 libpixman-1-0 libtiff4 libxml2 system-ui systemui-l10n-engineering-english20:43
RST38hShould I dist-upgrade?20:43
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* Arkenoi wonders if harmattan will *ever* reach functionality of fremantle. 20:49
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lardmanhmm, reflashed, restored backup (not apps though) then tried to start/install dev mode, only to find that it's failed again (on developer-mode package) with an error of "Installation interrupted"20:59
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lardmanhas anyone else tried recently to enable dev mode on the beta2 image?21:00
fiferboylardman, is your battery charged?21:01
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fiferboyi have had installs fail saying not enough battery21:01
lardmanyeah was 76% when I reflashed21:02
* lardman wonders where the sdk-connectivity-tool package should live21:02
lardmannot here presumably?
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lardmanwould someone with a terminal mind seeing if that package is get-able please?21:05
thplardman: as in apt-get --download?21:05
lardmanor apt-get install should try to re-download and reinstall21:06
RST38hthp: congrats on winning intel's money =)21:06
fiferboyit says it is already installed for me21:06
thpRST38h: thx :)21:06
thpapt-get install sdk-connectivity-tool --reinstall --downl21:06
lardmanlooks like the version is different between the one listed on that page and the one that the developer-tools package depends on mind you, so who knows21:07
infobotthp meant: apt-get install sdk-connectivity-tool --reinstall --download-only21:07
thplardman: Get:1 ./ sdk-connectivity-tool 0.4.8+0m6 [71.3kB]21:07
lardmanok, so the link should work21:07
lardmanthanks thp21:07
thplardman: the repos are in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/aegis.ssu-keyring-dadd.list on the beta2 image21:08
lardmanthp: I don't have a terminal though, which is what is causing the issues :)21:09
* lardman wonders about submitting a package to Ovi that will install the terminal in its postinst script21:09
lardmannot sure that would make it though mind you ;)21:10
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thpthe classic hen and egg problem21:10
lardmanI'll see if anyone has submitted any sort of comms tools to Ovi21:10
* lardman heads to grab some supper and consider the problem21:10
thplardman: i haven't read the scrollback, but aren't you able to install these by simply enabling dev mode?21:11
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RST38hAnyone ever used SPARQL QML component? Anyone???21:24
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crevetorI think I did21:27
crevetorWhat are you referring to exactly ?21:28
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* Arkenoi decided to give n900 a second try: reflash, carefully apply performance tweaks and replacement libraries, maybe bfs kernel and see if it became any better since i moved to n95021:38
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lardmanthp: The problem is that I can't enable dev mode21:52
lardmanI've just searched the Ovi store, and there's nothing I could see of use in there21:52
lardmanI guess I can try another reflash and not bother restoring my settings, on the off chance that has made some difference21:53
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* lardman tries Settings > Reset > Clear device21:55
lardmanno idea what it does mind you as the little (i) next to it doesn't produce any sort of message21:56
lardmanor perhaps that just indicates that you'll get an explanation on the next page? In which case I've no idea why it's clickable21:56
lardmanhmm, I now have a counter-clockwise arrow indicating that I should do something roational22:00
lardmanno idea what mind you, nor does twirling the phone round do anything22:00
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lardman8 sec power button hold and cross fingers22:01
lardmanhmm, it's back22:01
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lardmanno idea, time for another reflash it would seem22:02
thplardman: try reflashing, enabling dev mode (+make sure you have terminal, ssh, etc..) and only after that restore your settings22:02
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lardmanthp: yeah I'll try that this time through22:02
lardmanseems to be some issues with the dev mode enabling mind you, as it shouldn't really fail like that imho22:03
lardmanlikewise for the device wipe, which just results in you needing to do a reflash anyway22:03
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* lardman heads to watch some TV while the device is erased and reflashed22:03
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thpif there's nothing on tv, try this while reflashing..
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lardmanthp: ah if only I'd seen it in time, far better than Country House Rescue22:29
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lardman is always entertaining as a video too22:30
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lardmanok, so I've reflashed and yet I still have this funny arrow in the centre of the scteen22:30
hiemanshuits probably the actual screen then22:31
lardmannah it's sw generated22:31
lardmanlet me take a photo22:31
* lardman boots trusty N90022:31
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lardmanany thoughts appreciated22:36
crevetorif you turn your device really fast it will go away22:37
ieatlinti've seen that arrow22:37
crevetorme too I think22:37
lardmanwell I did try turning it, wondering if the compass/accelerometer wanted to be recalibrated, but no22:37
ieatlintdid a factory reset on an n9, and it showed that error while it did it22:37
lardmanmine's occurred since doing a reset on the device22:38
hiemanshulardman: omg fingerprint22:38
lardmanso I should leave it for longer you reckon?22:38
hiemanshudude, clean the damn thing22:38
lardmanThis happens after it reboots22:38
crevetorlardman: the fingerprints ?22:38
lardmanhiemanshu: yeah I was going to say something about not commenting on the fingerprints!22:38
hiemanshulardman: it only takes a few minutes to clean it up every morning22:39
hiemanshuor more than a few seconds every hour22:39
lardmanhiemanshu: I forgot the cleaning while I've been cursing it all day for not wanting to give me a terminal so I can install some sw I've just compiled22:40
lardmansorry ;)22:40
lardmanbbiam, baby crying, should go help!22:40
ieatlinti can get at least a partial match of a finger print from that photo22:40
hiemanshuI cant see such a nice device so dirty22:40
hiemanshuthat arrow could be a signal22:41
hiemanshuturn around, and do something else22:41
hiemanshubefore meego screws up again? :P22:41
crevetorieatlint: CSI !22:41
crevetorlardman: also stop eating bacon while hacking your N950 ;)22:42
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ieatlintmmm, bacon22:44
hiemanshummm, babies22:45
hiemanshubest served with a side of bacon :)22:46
ieatlintcareful now, michael jackson got into a lot of trouble for that attitude22:46
hiemanshuieatlint: but he was famous, and I am not22:47
hiemanshuso meh22:47
hiemanshuno one will catch me22:47
ieatlintthey didn't successfully catch him either ;)22:48
hiemanshubut they wont even try in my case :P22:48
lardmanhmm, it was probably the bacon it's true22:51
lardmanI don't think the photo does it justice, it's not dirty or greasy to look at, just the wonders of the N900 flash and the low light in my study22:52
lardmananyway it still shows the arrow on the screen after ~12min22:53
lardmanso I guess it's not going to go away22:53
lardmanoh, I may be wrong22:54
lardmanI took out the sim to stick in my N900 so I could still receive calls22:54
lardmanjust came back up to see the arrow still there, so tried a reboot, and lo and behold it's booted22:54
lardmanand more interestingly it didn't ask for the passcode22:54
lardmanafaiu that is a phone code, not a sim pin as it's 5 numbers22:55
lardmanif so, minor security flaw there22:55
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lardmanwhey, back in business, enable dev mode before breathing after the reset, and to top it all off the device lock code has vanished23:07
lardmanhmm, internal memory is now ro though23:09
lardmanI'm confused, the mass storage device is vfat, but has a .backups dir on it and I thought *fat filenames couldn't start with a . ?23:10
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lardmanoh dear, input/output errors23:12
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mzanettiis there somewhere a wiki with tips&tricks and cool stuff for the N950?23:26
hiemanshumzanetti: check /topic23:34
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hiemanshuthe N950 landing page has links23:34
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mzanettihiemanshu: :)23:36
khertan_lardman: you are true fat16 didn't accept filename starting with a point, but it's not a problem for fat3223:37
khertan_nor vfat23:37
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DocScrutinizerthat's 8.3 vs this new scheme23:47
DocScrutinizernot related to fat12/16/32 afaik23:48
DocScrutinizerexcept for defaults to either have or not the support for this "new scheme" (forgot the name)23:48
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DocScrutinizeryou know that all files still are actually 8.3 named and the long names are just a "trick"23:50
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DocScrutinizeron all fat fs23:51
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