| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: pretty good, will add stuff that comes to mind and isn't covered yet | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| javispedro | exactly what I want :) | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | ofc | 00:01 |
| SpeedEvil | aegis blocks? | 00:03 |
| SpeedEvil | Is this a tetris-like-game? | 00:04 |
| javispedro | hah | 00:04 |
| javispedro | couldn't think of a better name ;) | 00:04 |
| djszapi | "Aegis limitations". | 00:04 |
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| * javispedro renames | 00:06 | |
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| javispedro | http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Aegis_limitations :) | 00:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | grrmpff | 00:07 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: if you were editing, just save, I'll fix it. | 00:08 |
| djszapi | sandst1: mmm, the debian folder you gave me did not contain debian/myapp.files file (meaning that the package is empty). How does it work on fremantle ? | 00:08 |
| alterego | This QRCode generator QML component is neat :) | 00:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | not editing, just wondered what if I had already dropped a bookmark | 00:09 |
| djszapi | sandst1: ahhh .files is autogenerated, unless your rules file is severely broken. | 00:09 |
| alterego | To stick a QRCode into your QML application just do this: http://pastie.org/2602136 | 00:09 |
| alterego | :) | 00:09 |
| qgil | wouldn't it be useful to distinguis, if possible, Aegis from the N9 device policy? | 00:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, yeah | 00:10 |
| djszapi | qgil: In my opinion, it should be device independent. | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: actually it's not aegis that'S bad, but obviously the way it's used/configured | 00:11 |
| qgil | djszapi: I'm referring to http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Aegis_limitations | 00:11 |
| qgil | are these "Aegis limitations" or policy limitations applied to the N9? | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | policy | 00:11 |
| qgil | ( and N950) | 00:11 |
| djszapi | qgil: yes | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | I bet javispedro already edits it this moment | 00:12 |
| djszapi | qgil: a hacker can buy an N9, and that person still can have these limitations. | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: absolutely right :-D | 00:12 |
| qgil | sure, but then one day Aegis is picked by other OS/vendor and then a bunch of OSS enthusiasts following this "Aegis discussion" will automatically think that "Aegis is not really FOSS" etc | 00:13 |
| javispedro | going to call it "Activities blocked by the N9/N950 security policy" at the end ;P | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | nono, aegis as a framework is pretty good regarding implemetation and options it has - it's clearly the policy on harmattan that is mere **** | 00:14 |
| qgil | for the small group of people really knowing Aegis this doesn't matter - for the bigger amount of people (like me) more ignorant about Aegis and security frameworks (like me) getting confused is easy | 00:14 |
| qgil | I'm nopt an engineer but I'm (I was) a journalist and I'm just asking to call the things by its name | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'S why we appreciate your advice here :-D | 00:15 |
| berndhs | that's an important point, if you dith aegis and get another tool to enforce the same policy, you have the same problems | 00:15 |
| qgil | and the things you are complaining about in that wiki page are more about the N9/N950 policy than about Aegis framework itself | 00:15 |
| berndhs | s/dith/ditch/ | 00:15 |
| infobot | berndhs meant: that's an important point, if you ditch aegis and get another tool to enforce the same policy, you have the same problems | 00:15 |
| djszapi | qgil: I agree, people were swearing about aegis, but it is simply a policy issue. | 00:15 |
| djszapi | aegis does what it was supposed to do. | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi: granted | 00:16 |
| qgil | ... and probably the policy also does ehat it was supposed to do, we "just" need to configure it better - it seems | 00:16 |
| djszapi | yeah, the problem is the thing what the policy was supposed to do. | 00:17 |
| berndhs | well, the policy seems to be that a user is not supposed to run his/her own code on the device | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's about a way higher general goal/concept of what a developer is supposed to do on "meego", and that will determine how the policy is tailored in the end | 00:18 |
| qgil | I bet (because I haven't been involved and don't know myself) that the current policy makes happy Ovi, operators and legal frameworks in a bunch of countries | 00:18 |
| djszapi | s/Aegis limitations/Security policy limitations/ | 00:19 |
| qgil | without bothering the average app developer | 00:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | I admit there's probably no issue with aegis policy on harmattan as long as developers don't want to do anything but QML coding and a few silly file accesses | 00:19 |
| qgil | if you look at the use cases listed, the easy/conservative answer is "anyway, that is not supported" | 00:19 |
| berndhs | I think there _is_ a fundamental problem with trusted enties, in that the owner of the device isn't trusted | 00:20 |
| qgil | now, we must look at those use cases one by one and, like in a house of cards, see how we can remove/change bits of the policy not compromising tyhe rest of the house | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: the problem is this is implicitly supported on what a usual developer thinks is a linux system | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's why I asked you "is FOSS still FOSS when you can't edit it?" | 00:21 |
| qgil | berndhs: are you sure that in some big market having a pre-installed and visible option for "developer mode" wouldn't pose a liability on Nokia if a user turns that on and then installs an app that sucks zillion euros from his operator account via silent SMSs (to put a stupid example)? | 00:21 |
| crevetor | alterego: is this the new QRcode stuff ? | 00:21 |
| alterego | Some of it :) | 00:21 |
| alterego | crevetor: I've implemented a generator now | 00:22 |
| berndhs | qgil: it might be, but let's be honest, that is not the reason for not trusting the user | 00:22 |
| alterego | Which is what that pastie was about. | 00:22 |
| crevetor | Oh Ok I see | 00:22 |
| javispedro | (remove/change bits of the policy not compromising the rest) that's difficult, as djszapi has pointed. the obvious solution -- to give some tokens back, like sys_admin -- also brings in too many other privileges, and even I understand that allowing certain things while restricting others is sometimes ComputerSciency-diffcult. | 00:22 |
| alterego | crevetor: packages: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/harmattan/packages/ | 00:22 |
| qgil | the N9 sold in markets is not like a Raspberry_Pi or a laptop with the Ubuntu you installed, there are some obvious OSS use cases that might have less obvious implications | 00:22 |
| qgil | I'm not justifying the policy | 00:22 |
| alterego | crevetor: still need to iron out some stuff with the reader. | 00:22 |
| qgil | as said, I have no clue nor any background on the discussions | 00:22 |
| crevetor | alterego: I've got URL opening working and I'll be implementing Vcard import soon | 00:22 |
| djszapi | I wish I could say things... | 00:22 |
| crevetor | alterego: but indeed the reader is ... flaky | 00:23 |
| qgil | I'm just saying that there are ore aspects around | 00:23 |
| berndhs | qgil: the trusted enties are the manufacturer, the phone company, and certificate holders of 289 companies you never heard of | 00:23 |
| qgil | berndhs: djszapi seems to have answers that he can't share - I have no answers therefore nothing to share either. I'm not discussing with your or telling you you are wrong, I'm just trying to put things into perspective | 00:24 |
| alterego | crevetor: hah, I was going to do vcard export and import as a test actually in a few moments :P | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: I'm pretty sure there's no liability of $MANUFACTURER when user throws a switch and enters "yes I've been warned. I'll do it nevertheless!" | 00:25 |
| berndhs | qgil: yes I understand that. we wont be able to address this issue in this forum, but I think it is worth stating still | 00:25 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: what is your daily job? | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | project lead hw&sw | 00:26 |
| qgil | ok, then you saying "I'm pretty sure" is as useful as me saying "I'm pretty sure" in case of a real legal case :) | 00:26 |
| qgil | but I'm speculating so I'll stop here | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm deducing from similar cases | 00:27 |
| qgil | vainio seems to be following this and he seems to be optimistic | 00:27 |
| qgil | again, I don't know more because, honestly, my focus these days is more on other aspects e.g. Qt Project, what is going on with MeeGo project, etc | 00:27 |
| qgil | as a regular app developer Aegis & the policy don't bother _me_ | 00:28 |
| javispedro | no need to explain that | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | you may have to print a warning on the rat poison, but you're not liable if somebody eats it nevertheless, ignoring the warning and the bitter taste | 00:28 |
| javispedro | ask if iPhone's closedness hurts their app developers | 00:28 |
| kimju | qgil, about legalese, who should be asked about clarifying what "You may not (or allow others to) enable any logic or protocols in the Product that are disabled when delivered to You by Nokia." in PLA really means? | 00:28 |
| crevetor | alterego: well vcard import is somewhat easy : save teh vcard data to a vcf file and use qt.openurlExternally on that file and boom : vcard import | 00:29 |
| qgil | kimju: I guess you know what that sentence means. What is your question? :) | 00:29 |
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| faenil | heya | 00:29 |
| djszapi | crevetor: I wrote intructions about that how to import on the wikipage. | 00:29 |
| faenil | seen 8 updates on my n950 | 00:30 |
| faenil | anything new? | 00:30 |
| djszapi | faenil: normal | 00:30 |
| faenil | ok.. | 00:30 |
| kimju | qgil, as I'm working on custom kernel, I'm concerned if enabling any new kernel options is forbidden by that. | 00:30 |
| crevetor | djszapi: cool. Where exactly ? | 00:31 |
| qgil | we were just talking about things you write down and make the user accept in order to cover your backs, right | 00:31 |
| djszapi | crevetor: http://wiki.meego.com/Migrating_from_N900_to_N950#Contact_Import | 00:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: and, on a sidenote, we in here all got DEVELOPER devices, not consumer devices for mass market | 00:31 |
| faenil | right | 00:32 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: sure, developer devices with the same capabilities as the final commercial devices (hardware permitting) | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: and aegis makes it dead simple to grant or deny, even revoke such a permission | 00:32 |
| djszapi | I think there is no difference between developer device and final device regarding the policies. | 00:32 |
| qgil | otherwise imagine your complain if e.g. we distributo N950s with open meode only, you code all your stuff and the you see it capped whenever the N9 comes to the shops | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's the crux | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | there *should* be a difference | 00:33 |
| qgil | the current situation might not be nice, but at least you know it's the real situation | 00:33 |
| faenil | qgil: +1, sad but true | 00:33 |
| alterego | crevetor: mobility has vcard import and export APIs | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: sorry, you missed my comment about the switch in settings to enable/disable "developer mode" | 00:34 |
| faenil | DocScrutinizer: but see it like this, we were given a device to code apps for a final N9...and it works for that. So...I see nothing wrong in there | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | why would DEVELOPER devices come with no consumer device mode to enable on throw of a switch? | 00:34 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: you all got the N950 after signing a contract saying that this is a developer device, not a commercial product | 00:34 |
| javispedro | faenil: you come from symbian. you are used to their weird wims. | 00:34 |
| faenil | javispedro: XD | 00:34 |
| alterego | javispedro: or his definition of apps :P | 00:34 |
| crevetor | alterego: I saw that but I don't know how it's presented to the user | 00:35 |
| alterego | crevetor: it's not, it just happens. | 00:35 |
| berndhs | if you look at the list on the meego developer program, not everyone wrote they would make N9 apps for OVI | 00:35 |
| djszapi | there should be no difference between n950 and n9 regarding the policies. | 00:35 |
| alterego | crevetor: you present it as you want. | 00:35 |
| djszapi | if there is a difference, then there is a big problem ongoing there. | 00:35 |
| crevetor | alterego: I like the way it behaves using Qt.openUrlExternaly (you can merge or create a new one, etc) | 00:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: so that's the rationale why it comes with aegis policy in consumer mode only ? that we signed a paper that says it's a developer device? you lost me | 00:35 |
| crevetor | alterego: somebody already wrote what I want ;) | 00:35 |
| alterego | crevetor: sure, but that's a bit messy, unless you save to /tmp I guess :) | 00:35 |
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| crevetor | alterego: That's what I was planning to do. And remove the file once it has been imported (or discarded) | 00:36 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: you are loosing me too :) I'm just saying that developer device and commercial device come with the same policy because ultimately the developer devices are given to produce software for the commercial device (in Ovi or elsewhere, doesn't matter) | 00:36 |
| djszapi | N9 buyers can also have the capability to have "complete" open and, and the N950 users can also have the capability to not have "complete" open mode that would be requested by people including me. | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | err ??? | 00:37 |
| faenil | djszapi: u lost me | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | emphasis on "to produce software" which definitely isn't what a consumer device is supposed to support | 00:38 |
| djszapi | there is no difference in policies between those devices according to a proposal. | 00:38 |
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| qgil | I believe djszapi says that N9 buyers will be able to have e.g. MeeGo CE and then do whatever | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | so why would it need to be limited to do only what a consumer device can do? | 00:38 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: install your OS and run? | 00:38 |
| djszapi | qgil: yeah, there is no reason to limit them if they would like to have "Complete" open mode. | 00:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sorry, I'm puzzled to a state where headache starts | 00:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | off | 00:39 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: in which timezone are you? | 00:39 |
| qgil | (I'm datamining you) | 00:39 |
| alterego | crevetor: actually you're right, there's no way of loading from text :( | 00:40 |
| qgil | My personal summary: | 00:40 |
| alterego | crevetor: in QML you have to save/load from a file URI as well. | 00:40 |
| qgil | - The N9 comes with a policy that is flexible enough to do many things with the current OS, and allows you also to reflash with something else | 00:40 |
| faenil | keeping hw warranty? | 00:41 |
| qgil | - The current policy perhaps can be fine tuned - that wiki page helps finding out what are the pain points | 00:41 |
| qgil | - The open mode needs to be... defined? released? documented? I honestly don't know | 00:41 |
| djszapi | (May I have a question?) | 00:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Do we know - publically - yet what the deltas are between released n9, and the 'current' external nokia image? | 00:41 |
| qgil | - In anycase the MeeGo CE is also coming to the N9 (again afaik) and there a developer would have something as open as a slick pandaboard | 00:42 |
| crevetor | alterego: Well I was thinking of maybe writing a c++ part that would use QtVersit to import a vcard but then it's "a lot" of work to do exactly what openUrlExtarnally does so... | 00:42 |
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| qgil | personal summary ended | 00:42 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: no, that is the point. It should have a wow-effect | 00:42 |
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| faenil | qgil: what bout warranty' | 00:43 |
| alterego | Yeah | 00:43 |
| qgil | faenil: I'm 40 years old and I have never used a warranty - that should tell you my interest in the topic (sorry if this answer is too personal, then again the question was vague) | 00:44 |
| qgil | :) | 00:44 |
| djszapi | faenil: warranty is gone. | 00:44 |
| alterego | qgil: as open as a slightly more powerful beagle board with a warranty warning on boot :P | 00:44 |
| faenil | djszapi: ok so it's like being able to flash Android on an HTC HD2, right? | 00:44 |
| djszapi | faenil: as soon as you give up the platform, the warranty is of course gone. | 00:44 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: I don't think that's legal. | 00:44 |
| qgil | but can't you flash Harmattan back and get into warranty territory again? (wasn't that the case in N900 and predecessors?) | 00:44 |
| javispedro | plus, whether one will ever be able to boot harmattan in "open mode"/"aegisless"/"with a custom kernel" is still an open question. | 00:44 |
| djszapi | qgil: nope, if the custom kernel destroyed the hardware for instance. | 00:45 |
| javispedro | it is quite clear that one will be able to do it for MeegoCE. | 00:45 |
| gri | faenil: iPod touch also loses warranty when you jailbreak it and they exchanged mine without a word | 00:45 |
| faenil | gri: that's another thing ;) | 00:45 |
| djszapi | faenil: I do not know about that model, sorry. | 00:45 |
| berndhs | there's warranty, and then there's liability | 00:46 |
| alterego | qgil: yes, you can flash back, etc. | 00:46 |
| javispedro | note that so far, word is out the disclaimer will contain the words "warranty voided permanently" | 00:46 |
| alterego | And Nokia don't seem to care too much about "accidental" OC damaging of units :/ | 00:46 |
| qgil | I joined Nokia in 2007 when the N800 was popping out. Since then I have never heard someone sayiong "Nokia Care won't take my device because I installed A B C". Just a statistic. | 00:47 |
| alterego | qgil: exactly, I really don't think Nokia Care, care .. | 00:47 |
| * alterego chuckles | 00:47 | |
| javispedro | qgil: that's probably true, and I can expect that noone will do that for an N9. Still... | 00:47 |
| * SpeedEvil wonders if anyone will manage to get n9 from n900 repair fail. | 00:47 | |
| qgil | Still... what? | 00:48 |
| TSCHAKeee | haaaa | 00:48 |
| alterego | I really think you should argue this whole warranty problem when there is actually a problem .. | 00:48 |
| TSCHAKeee | ha | 00:48 |
| alterego | So far, there is no problem .. | 00:48 |
| javispedro | you know, next time someone makes a youtube video about how easy is to "root it", compared to other platforms, and a) you will be have to boot meegoce, instead of harmattan/swipe ui b) you will get a rather large warning about warranty being void | 00:48 |
| djszapi | "so far" is not too professional. | 00:48 |
| javispedro | s/you will be have/you will have | 00:48 |
| javispedro | that is what makes me sad | 00:49 |
| qgil | who is working on MeeGo CE on the N9? | 00:49 |
| faenil | I'm starting :) | 00:49 |
| faenil | just joined | 00:49 |
| javispedro | noone can boot it so far. | 00:49 |
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| javispedro | well, not "publicly"... | 00:49 |
| faenil | by working on Meego CE I mean code, I have never flashed it yet | 00:50 |
| javispedro | (but this is expected to be fixed "soon", as in, this week...) | 00:50 |
| qgil | I mean, isn't a team populated with Nokia engineers who is working on CE releases with the aim of making a N9 compatible version? | 00:50 |
| djszapi | qgil: you could ask Stskeeps. | 00:50 |
| crevetor | Maybe Jukka | 00:50 |
| djszapi | he was the previous ARM maintainer for N900 | 00:51 |
| faenil | there are some Nokia people in the team afaik | 00:51 |
| qgil | er... I don't need to ask, I just stating | 00:51 |
| crevetor | qgil: yeah you work there right ?! | 00:51 |
| qgil | my point, which actually just echoes what alterego says: there haven't been problems with warranties vs "rooted" or modified devices that we are aware of? | 00:52 |
| qgil | please understand if I don't spend much time discussing the several alternative scenarios | 00:52 |
| djszapi | qgil: we did not have problems with security yet either, but it still made sense to make one. This is not a professional arguement. | 00:52 |
| qgil | djszapi: now you lost me ;) | 00:53 |
| artemma | jukka twitted just today that he's able to run N950 apps on N900 without recompilation | 00:54 |
| djszapi | I am just saying if I as a device and software provider made a device and software. I would not stand the warranty if a software would use the device I am not even aware of. I cannot take the guarantee for that software. | 00:54 |
| faenil | I'm sorry but I have to leave, hope to be able to jump into this discussion again | 00:54 |
| faenil | have a nice evening guys | 00:54 |
| javispedro | cya faenil | 00:54 |
| faenil | gnite | 00:54 |
| djszapi | sleep well | 00:54 |
| qgil | djszapi: your answer is correct | 00:54 |
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| djszapi | meaning that, if complete open mode or custom kernel got into the device, warranty is also gone logically. | 00:55 |
| qgil | and when I say that I'm not aware of any warranty problem after 6 years of Maemo devices I'm also correct | 00:55 |
| javispedro | that's true. But it should not be used as an excuse. | 00:55 |
| qgil | now everybody here take your conclusions and move forward :) | 00:55 |
| TSCHAKeee | in other words... "chill." | 00:56 |
| TSCHAKeee | ;) | 00:56 |
| djszapi | qgil: so you are saying that Nokia is more tolerant than logical ? :) | 00:56 |
| javispedro | as by that thought alone, you could say that virtually any other manufacturer is as friendly | 00:56 |
| crevetor | djszapi: they don't give a f*ck about the N9 anyways ;) | 00:56 |
| qgil | javispedro: excuse for what? I you want official statements then you have the list of officially supported features and the EULA... | 00:56 |
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| artemma | Is it really so that I cannot use both import Qt.labs.components.native 1.0 and import com.nokia.meego 1.0 in the same project? :/ I am trying to define harmattan wrapper as PageStackWindow, but with Page from components.native (for reusing in Symbian, etc) and the change of import produces errors inside PageStack | 00:57 |
| javispedro | qgil: I am always thinking in the "look how easy is to root this device"-video context | 00:58 |
| qgil | javispedro: what else can we do? there is a solid legal framework, the is a flexible "hacker" framework and there is people at Nokia listening your feedback and trying to improve the current situation | 00:58 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: The vendor cannot simply say that the warranty is void - the law doesn't work like that. | 00:59 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: They can only reduce what they are willing to do where it exceeds what the law would normally allow. | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | fact is and that's sad: Nokia promised open mode *IN* harmattan, not an option to flash your own OS that of course is open then | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | and Nokia obviously isn't delivering | 00:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | (me out again) | 00:59 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: if that is really the truth, that is a very sad law. | 01:00 |
| qgil | javispedro: but don't you think that Nokia is already assuming that it's easy to root the N9, just like it's predecessors? | 01:00 |
| qgil | "Developer mode" even being in the Settings UI? | 01:01 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: since it means the law limits the rationale. | 01:01 |
| javispedro | qgil: the problem is that, once you read about all of this, you realize that's a lie. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: 'warranty void if device is exposed to a temperature outside of 20-23C' | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | You cannot make unreasonable exclusions. | 01:02 |
| javispedro | qgil: the real open mode is in that you can install MeegoCE. But this is an offer many Android device makers also do, as was pointed in a previous dicussion on #meego, as they offer you to install the AOSP version "at your own risk", losing whatever the device maker kept propietary. | 01:02 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: I must ask about thet open mode | 01:02 |
| djszapi | SpeedEvil: we were speaking about an unexpected software, not hardware environt. | 01:02 |
| djszapi | environment* | 01:02 |
| qgil | javispedro: I think you are upset about something | 01:03 |
| djszapi | sandst1: I found the root cause of the /usr/local issue! :p | 01:03 |
| qgil | homework for me: check with vainio & others what is happening with the open mode and make sure they are aware of the wiki page | 01:04 |
| djszapi | qgil: Unfortunately, you are completely right. We do not defense against xresponse... | 01:04 |
| djszapi | meaning that anybody can turn your device into Developer mode with a small attack, having more capabilities and the like. | 01:05 |
| crevetor | qgil: How big is/was the N9 team ? | 01:05 |
| qgil | crevetor: not allowed to say | 01:05 |
| crevetor | qgil: oh ok. May I ask why ? | 01:05 |
| qgil | have you found a big company answering this question? | 01:06 |
| crevetor | I've never asked another big company | 01:06 |
| qgil | try :) | 01:06 |
| crevetor | I'll try asking one of my friends at RIM... | 01:07 |
| javispedro | qgil: yes, you are right, I'm partially upset. I've criticised Android many times for their fake openness and lies, and thus I don't feel good about my favourite platform virtually going to do the same. | 01:08 |
| javispedro | but, I'm not continuing on the Aegis thread because I understand that there has been "slight" movement on the steering wheel of the ship, and I'm waiting to see the results. | 01:08 |
| crevetor | javispedro: Harmattan is way more open than android anyways | 01:09 |
| djszapi | please please guys, do not start it again :p | 01:09 |
| djszapi | I will buy a chocolate for everybody :p | 01:09 |
| crevetor | lol | 01:09 |
| qgil | javispedro: then the wiki page is a good point, leave "Aegis" in peace and put the focus in the "N9 policy" and the cool stuff that can't be done with the current situation | 01:09 |
| crevetor | Yeah that was kind of trolly... | 01:09 |
| qgil | this really helps people lie vainio or me picking the right battles with the right people | 01:09 |
| crevetor | qgil: the thing that can't be done in the current situation is deving NFC-enabled apps :'( | 01:10 |
| qgil | crevetor: to the wiki page then, even better with details (since Nokia would want to have NFC apps developed everywhere) | 01:11 |
| djszapi | sandst1: https://github.com/sandst1/meegosummitfi/blob/master/qmlapplicationviewer/qmlapplicationviewer.pri#L109 -> could you please push the fix here, or shall I do it ? | 01:11 |
| javispedro | I guess crevetor's being ironic here or pointing the lack of NFC on the N950 ;) | 01:11 |
| javispedro | (aegis doesn't forbid nfc apps at all) | 01:11 |
| qgil | ah well | 01:11 |
| javispedro | (so far ;D ) | 01:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: you're aware that harmattan dies the day OCI store closes down, are you? | 01:11 |
| qgil | sorry for sending you the N950 then ;) | 01:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | OVI* | 01:12 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: ??? | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | developers can't deploy apps without OVI signing infra | 01:12 |
| crevetor | qgil: this wiki page : http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page ? | 01:12 |
| javispedro | there will need to be a rather large talk once the end of support for the N9 starts to appear on the horizon | 01:13 |
| javispedro | the topic will be the community SSU ;) | 01:13 |
| crevetor | qgil: javispedro: I was sort of being ironic but if I get an N9 I would definitely dev some NFC-enabled apps | 01:13 |
| javispedro | crevetor: and all of us I bet ;) | 01:13 |
| crevetor | javispedro: then it's a good incentive for nokia to manke an N9 dev program | 01:14 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: so are you making me worry now for an scenario where the Nokia sign-in infrastructure just disappears? | 01:14 |
| qgil | right | 01:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | right | 01:14 |
| qgil | so Nokia disappears, where would you deploy apps for N90 users? | 01:14 |
| qgil | N9 | 01:15 |
| javispedro | the problem is that Aegis adds another obstacle; were Nokia to disappear tomorrow, community would not be able to provide upgrades as they have had with the N900. | 01:15 |
| qgil | ... and that is a good point I saw in the wiki page, yes | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | Nokia won't disappear (I hope), they just stop support for N9 after 2 yeras, as they did with N8x0 and N900 | 01:16 |
| crevetor | I think if Nokia disapears they would have enough time to either open source all harmattan or make sur people can still use it without them being around | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | MUHAHAHA | 01:16 |
| qgil | right | 01:17 |
| alterego | g'night folks | 01:17 |
| qgil | :) | 01:17 |
| javispedro | cya alterego | 01:17 |
| crevetor | qgil: you have a N9 and an N950 right ? | 01:19 |
| qgil | indeed | 01:20 |
| crevetor | qgil: do you prefer the N9 hardwarewise ? | 01:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | crevetor: Nokia doesn't even care to open up sources for silly buggy parts of fremantle (like mce) while they open up same code, just a too advanced version, for meegoCE when stskeeps asks politely. So how good are the chances Nokia will open up sources for fremantle or harmattan, or even deploy their signature key, when they switch to producing rubber boots again? | 01:20 |
| crevetor | docScrutinizer: Stskeeps will ask nicely when that happens ;) | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | please stop trolling | 01:21 |
| javispedro | ssht | 01:21 |
| MohammadAG | heya qgil :) | 01:21 |
| javispedro | what goes next can be deduced, one just needs to ask as politely as stskeeps =) | 01:21 |
| crevetor | docScrutinizer: I mean the initial question itself is useless. Nokia hasn't disappeared, and probably won't within the next 5 years. Ask again when they do.. | 01:22 |
| javispedro | crevetor: too late by then | 01:23 |
| MohammadAG | Someone broke my illegal FM transmitter :/ | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | crevetor: please read *all* postst related to a thread, we were talking about Nokia stopping support, not about Nokia vanishing | 01:23 |
| MohammadAG | not that it was any better than the N900's built in transmitter, but still :/ | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | crevetor: which they evidently did for diablo, and now fremantle | 01:24 |
| qgil | first batch of N9s leaving the factories as we speak, and already having a intense discussion for the day Nokia concludes the support & guarantee... Okl I'll go back to that patch I was planning to commit ;) | 01:24 |
| javispedro | thanks for the conversation | 01:25 |
| qgil | a pleasure, as always | 01:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: if you're not discussing life cycle and EOL of a product on rollout, when else do you want to talk about concepts that allow or forbid a sane life cycle management? | 01:26 |
| javispedro | :D | 01:26 |
| qgil | any buyer of the N9 will have the guarantee period stated | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, so it's supposed to be binned after warranty expired - thanks for the statement | 01:27 |
| qgil | for the rest, this is #harmattan IRC channel, you are free to discuss about this, and I have no role on decision on those topics even if I happen to work at Nokia | 01:27 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: you seem to be even more upset about something | 01:27 |
| qgil | if you want to put a meaning in my IRC words that's ok, it won't change a thing on Nokia's plans | 01:28 |
| crevetor | qgil: you haven't answered my question about your preference between N9 and N950. | 01:29 |
| qgil | I joined this channels 2h ago, the result is that I will ping vainio and attila about open mode and javispedro wiki page. The rest was the usual IRC discussion, interesting and etc | 01:29 |
| qgil | ah, N9 | 01:29 |
| crevetor | qgil: hum. Why ? (tell me if I'm annoying you with my questions) | 01:30 |
| qgil | thinner, amazing display/camera combo, it feels really good in the hand, slick design | 01:30 |
| qgil | before the N9 I was always a hardware keyboard guy, but this beauty changed my mind | 01:31 |
| crevetor | qgil: you don't miss the HW keyboard (I have to say I don't use it tht often on the N950) | 01:31 |
| djszapi | qgil: May I ask you how attila comes into the picture ? | 01:31 |
| TSCHAKeee | I use the on screen keyboard on my N950 exclusively | 01:31 |
| TSCHAKeee | it works great | 01:31 |
| crevetor | qgil: the display and the camera are really better on the N9 ? | 01:31 |
| TSCHAKeee | so i don't see the whole waah waah of not having one on the N9. (and yes, I have an N900 too) | 01:31 |
| artemma | I've seen more than one developer that was expecting to be happy about N950 keyboard and then confessed that didn't use hardware one for over a month | 01:31 |
| qgil | well, vainio and attila work in the same team at Nokia Developer and both know this community and the needs of a software freedom lover | 01:32 |
| artemma | on screen keyboard is just that good and hardware one.. well, not super-great. Not great enough to beat the onscreen one | 01:32 |
| crevetor | TSCHAKeee: same. I type a bit faster on the HW keyboard though and sometimes it's good to have that screen space for something else | 01:32 |
| qgil | crevetor: no idea about the camera but the display is visibly better on the N9, you have to see it (and touch it) | 01:33 |
| crevetor | artemma: I miss the accents on the HW keyboard I wish a long press would do the same as a long press on the VKB | 01:33 |
| gri | qgil: What's your color? | 01:33 |
| qgil | gri: black, but wasn't given a chance :) | 01:33 |
| crevetor | qgil: I wish.. I'm in Canada though so I'm not expecting to see it anytime soon :( I've seen one in Moscow but it was off... | 01:34 |
| artemma | qgil: some release notes stated that N950 and N9s camera modules are "similar" | 01:34 |
| crevetor | But I'd like to have the clock while the phone is on standby, that's just awesome | 01:34 |
| MohammadAG | artemma, they're similar but different :P | 01:34 |
| crevetor | isn't the one on the N950 a "downgraded" 12px ? | 01:34 |
| crevetor | 12Mpx | 01:34 |
| MohammadAG | To me, the only con of the N9 is the PenTile screen arrangement | 01:35 |
| MohammadAG | but I guess I'll have to see it to decide | 01:35 |
| crevetor | MohammadAG: you're in NYC right ? | 01:35 |
| qgil | PenTile? | 01:35 |
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| MohammadAG | NYC? lol, I'm half a planet away from that, IL | 01:37 |
| MohammadAG | qgil, RGB vs PenTile | 01:37 |
| crevetor | IL ? | 01:37 |
| crevetor | Illinois ? | 01:37 |
| MohammadAG | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenTile_matrix_family | 01:37 |
| MohammadAG | Israel | 01:37 |
| crevetor | Oh ok | 01:37 |
| crevetor | Is the N9 planned to launch in Israel ? | 01:37 |
| gri | MohammadAG: Which side of the wall? | 01:37 |
| MohammadAG | No idea, ask Nokia :P | 01:38 |
| crevetor | :) | 01:38 |
| MohammadAG | though I rarely get my phones from IL | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | I remain unconvinced by pentile - if the software doesn't know about it. | 01:38 |
| MohammadAG | gri, not the Palestinian territories | 01:38 |
| crevetor | qgil: Israel ? (I'm asking Nokia ;)) | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Pretending it's just a triplet display, with a teeny little ASIC in it to convert, without the underlying software knowing otherwise is not going to optimise performance. | 01:39 |
| qgil | hardware, sales, teams... good collection of topics I ignore or can't answer ;) | 01:39 |
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| gri | MohammadAG: Then you miss the great beer they have over there :) I forgot the name :/ | 01:40 |
| MohammadAG | gri, Oktoberfest? | 01:40 |
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| crevetor | qgil: I was kind of expecting that ;) | 01:40 |
| MohammadAG | I can't ship my N950 back till Monday :/ | 01:40 |
| qgil | for your pleasure | 01:40 |
| MohammadAG | or Sunday actually | 01:40 |
| gri | MohammadAG: No, I meant they have some good brewerys in palestinian terretories | 01:40 |
| gri | ies* | 01:41 |
| djszapi | sandst1: after fixing that, I can see the icon on the applauncher page. | 01:42 |
| djszapi | sandst1: kinda usable, am really missing the native look'n'feel :) | 01:43 |
| crevetor | qgil: what wiki page were you reffering to earlier (the one where I should say that it'd be nice to be able to develop NFC enabled apps) ? | 01:43 |
| qgil | crevetor: I was referring to javispedro 's but I didn't get your irony in the middle of all the "Aegis won't allw this and that" | 01:44 |
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| crevetor | qgil: It wasn't that ironic. | 01:45 |
| qgil | ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around! | 01:46 |
| * SpeedEvil waves. | 01:46 | |
| javispedro | cya! | 01:47 |
| crevetor | see you qgil | 01:48 |
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| djszapi | sandst1: it does not show my program.xml :( | 02:16 |
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| javispedro | MohammadAG: btw, I've been experimenting with Qmafw already, http://depot.javispedro.com/metawatch/portalwatch.jpg | 02:30 |
| javispedro | sadly on Harm seems that closing the media player "kills" the current playlist | 02:30 |
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| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, did you twit that? | 02:53 |
| javispedro | yep | 02:54 |
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| javispedro | in fact @Meta_Watch got it | 02:58 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, well, harmattan has no support for playlists so | 02:59 |
| MohammadAG | you might as well duplicate the playlist | 02:59 |
| javispedro | but I hoped I could just call "play" on the current one | 03:00 |
| MohammadAG | yeah, like maemo 5 | 03:00 |
| javispedro | so if I want to play when media-suite is closed I'd need to show ui to select which album, etc. | 03:00 |
| javispedro | paain. | 03:00 |
| MohammadAG | better way | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | duplicate playlist used by music-suite | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | when it's closed, keep the duplicate | 03:01 |
| javispedro | oh good idea. | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | but rename it to whatever the now playing one's called | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | when music-suite is opened again, reduplicate | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | there's a playlist updated signal so you can sync the duplicate with the current one | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | extra effort, but does the job | 03:02 |
| javispedro | btw, I've had to reimplement the .cache/media-art "rules" because mafw would sometimes send me the art sometimes wouldn't | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | no | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | this is something that annoyed me in OMP | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | sometimes MafwSource sends the album art, not MafwRenderer | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | so if you don't get album art from the renderer, you'll need to request metadata from MafwSource for the current objectId | 03:03 |
| javispedro | heh | 03:03 |
| javispedro | seems that just getting it from .media-art is simple =) | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | where does mafw store playlists now? | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | it was ~/.mafw-playlists on m5 | 03:03 |
| javispedro | no idea | 03:03 |
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| MohammadAG | hmm | 03:06 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, does mafw still use its playlist implementation? | 03:06 |
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| MohammadAG | to me it seems playlists are handled in the app now | 03:06 |
| javispedro | well, there's still the concept of a playlist, and I do know which is the current position on it | 03:07 |
| MohammadAG | is it still using MafwPlaylist and MafwPlaylistManager? | 03:07 |
| javispedro | manager aiui has been replaced by mafwshared | 03:08 |
| MohammadAG | MafwShared was always there | 03:08 |
| javispedro | mafwshared and mafwregistry | 03:12 |
| MohammadAG | yep, been there since M5 | 03:13 |
| MohammadAG | that's how you get instances of the renderer etc | 03:13 |
| javispedro | well, it also does playlists now | 03:14 |
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| * javispedro misses a way to increase brightness or other visual transforms in QML ;P | 03:21 | |
| special | javispedro: the cool way is to use the GL shader items | 03:28 |
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| MohammadAG | javispedro, any ideas about how "Favorites" are stored? | 03:32 |
| javispedro | tracker | 03:32 |
| javispedro | also, felipec knows | 03:32 |
| javispedro | https://github.com/felipec/maemo-scrobbler/blob/master/m6_main.cpp | 03:32 |
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| Termana | morning | 03:36 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, so is there a way to get a listing in terminal? | 03:37 |
| MohammadAG | tracker-search I guess, not sure what to pass to it though | 03:37 |
| MohammadAG | morning Termana | 03:38 |
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| javispedro | MohammadAG: $ tracker-sparql -q "SELECT ?url WHERE { ?song nao:hasTag nao:predefined-tag-f | 03:42 |
| javispedro | avorite . ?song nie:url ?url}" | 03:42 |
| * javispedro is starting to become proefficient in this sparql thing... | 03:42 | |
| javispedro | well, just "basic" still. | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | thanks javispedro :D | 03:45 |
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| djszapi | anybody having usb network to the Harmattan device ? | 03:57 |
| djszapi | netowrking* | 03:58 |
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| djszapi | done on the phone: route add default gw 192.168.2.14 | done on the PC: iptables -A POSTROUTING -t nat -s 192.168.2.15/32 -j MASQUERADE && echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward | 04:00 |
| djszapi | /etc/hosts contains 8.8.8.8, no proxy, "echo 'deb http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/rzr:/harmattan/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard/ ./' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/nicks.list" executed, but when it tries to fetch this repository, it cannot get it ... | 04:00 |
| djszapi | http://paste.kde.org/128119/ | 04:02 |
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| MohammadAG | djszapi, I just used the N900 instructions | 04:07 |
| djszapi | yeah, me too. | 04:08 |
| MohammadAG | the Ubuntu 10.10 ones | 04:08 |
| MohammadAG | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking#Automatic_configuration_with_Ubuntu_9.10.2F10.04 djszapi | 04:09 |
| djszapi | yes, that is the same page I found by using google for N900 + usb networking. | 04:13 |
| djszapi | I am not sure what is wrong about this environment | 04:13 |
| SpeedEvil | djszapi: Does the kernel support masq and nat | 04:16 |
| djszapi | well, I even have R&D certificate :) | 04:17 |
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| lardman | hmm, perhaps now wasn't the best time to update the SDK... | 04:42 |
| * lardman twiddles thumbs | 04:42 | |
| lardman | at least it might make me fall asleep again hey | 04:42 |
| djszapi | :) | 04:42 |
| berndhs | sleep is important to make sound decisions | 04:45 |
| lardman | this is true | 04:45 |
| berndhs | I think most apps should have a "quit" option, would be cleaner | 04:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | I really wish it were swipe up to quit instead of swipe down | 04:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | easier and makes much more sense | 04:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Can we hack that? | 04:57 |
| lardman | oh does swype direction matter now then? | 04:58 |
| berndhs | maybe quit should be the mark of Zorro | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | lol | 05:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Make a cool animation, too. | 05:01 |
| lardman | imagine needing to pull out a sword on the train though to close an app | 05:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | (Rays win!) | 05:06 |
| * lardman wonders why Photoanalyser takes so long to detect barcodes in photos | 05:16 | |
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| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: Isn't tehre a swypetools - to change stuff? | 05:20 |
| SpeedEvil | in ovi | 05:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess so. | 05:22 |
| lardman | ah nice, found what looks like an up-to-date C++ port of ZXing | 05:22 |
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| * lardman hits the sack again, night all | 05:37 | |
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| GAN900 | OK, wtf does Installation unusable mean. | 06:22 |
| GAN900 | Is this some Aegis idiocy? | 06:22 |
| GAN900 | FBReader (dpkg -i'ed) has a red exclamation point icon | 06:22 |
| GAN900 | Wont open: "Installation unusable" | 06:22 |
| GAN900 | Runs fine from xterm | 06:23 |
| SpeedEvil | What version are you on? | 06:26 |
| GAN900 | Beta2 | 06:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | where is the fbreader dpkg again? | 06:39 |
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| GAN900 | SpeedEvil, http://andrew.olmsted.ca/harmattan/packages/ | 07:14 |
| SpeedEvil | thanks | 07:15 |
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| frals | i wonder if we can stop calling it meego 1.2 harmattan now and just go with maemo6? ;D | 08:15 |
| ravi | yeah | 08:16 |
| djszapi | Can we have an access to the build logs on the community OBS ? | 08:19 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: make a pull request on github, i'll merge it in then | 08:22 |
| djszapi | sandst1: cannot you just make this few characters change directly, please ? | 08:23 |
| djszapi | https://github.com/sandst1/meegosummitfi/blob/master/qmlapplicationviewer/qmlapplicationviewer.pri#L109 -> installPrefix = /usr/local -> installPrefix = /usr | 08:24 |
| sandst1 | oook. sure | 08:24 |
| frals | <GeneralAntilles> I really wish it were swipe up to quit instead of swipe down <- swipemanager in the store | 08:24 |
| djszapi | sandst1: and then I can upload a working harmattan package. Not sure why it did not recognize my program | 08:25 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: just thought that in case you've made a github fork it'd be one press of a button :) | 08:25 |
| djszapi | I do not like the github/gitorious workflow | 08:25 |
| djszapi | too much kernel and arch linux development -> got used to git-send email :) | 08:26 |
| sandst1 | heh | 08:26 |
| hiemanshu | lol arch | 08:27 |
| djszapi | sandst1: can you please tell me when you pushed it ? | 08:33 |
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| djszapi | http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2011/09/limo-foundation-and-linux-foundation-announce-new-open-source-softw | 08:37 |
| djszapi | https://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2011/whats-next-meego | 08:38 |
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| sandst1 | djszapi: pushed | 09:18 |
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| djszapi | sandst1: thanks, do you have an idea for the non-appearing program ? | 09:23 |
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| sandst1 | djszapi: do you get any program info shown..? | 09:24 |
| djszapi | sandst1: nup | 09:25 |
| djszapi | I see the part of the program xml on the console while running it, though. | 09:25 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: ookay | 09:25 |
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| sandst1 | djszapi: check for stuff between xmlparser:parse & xmlparser:parse exit | 09:26 |
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| sandst1 | djszapi: and insert more logs there to see if the parsing is going correctly. | 09:27 |
| djszapi | sandst1: is it a big work to rewrite it with components ? If it is not that big, I could aid it.. | 09:28 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: well you have to rewrite the whole UI :P and since it was my first qml project, the code miiight not be that sane | 09:29 |
| djszapi | really, the whole Ui ? | 09:30 |
| djszapi | someone told that here previously, it is simple to port a plain QML application to components. It is indeed not that good then. | 09:30 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: ook. maybe not the whole ui but parts of it | 09:30 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: i don't really know the answer how much work it needs. one should start to port it and see how much it takes | 09:31 |
| djszapi | that is the way of gettink stuck into a project :p | 09:31 |
| sandst1 | djzapi: yesindeed :P | 09:31 |
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| sandst1 | djszapi: the biggest difference to the app with componens would be that i had to implement a screen switcher of my own. | 09:33 |
| djszapi | sandst1: actually, it did not even load the meego summit program after the installation. | 09:34 |
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| djszapi | so my program did not make any difference. | 09:34 |
| sandst1 | djszapi: aa | 09:34 |
| mzanetti | is there a SD card slot on the N950? | 09:36 |
| djszapi | no | 09:37 |
| mzanetti | anyone knows what it under the back cover? only the battery? | 09:38 |
| hiemanshu | yup only the battery | 09:41 |
| mzanetti | djszapi: hiemanshu: ok. thanks | 09:42 |
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| khertan | Morning | 09:47 |
| hiemanshu | Morning | 09:48 |
| hiemanshu | :P | 09:48 |
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| mece | want open harmattan | 10:23 |
| ajalkane | m3 t00 | 10:25 |
| ajalkane | I'd buy a T-shirt in the spirit of Free Mandela, that said Free Harmattan. With a sad looking meegon behind bars. | 10:26 |
| mece | hahah nice one | 10:35 |
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| djszapi | MohammadAG: is your scroll question still ongoing or already got fixed ? | 10:39 |
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| djszapi | in which part of its work you're interested? basically it just calls list->scrollTo(GroupHeaderIndex. | 10:40 |
| Stecchino | I'm getting dropped calls, with the network becoming unavailable after ~15 minutes with beta2. Known problem? | 10:43 |
| ajalkane | I haven't talked for 15 minutes in phone. | 10:44 |
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| djszapi | I had a long conference call with a slightly older image than the public, at least. | 10:47 |
| Stecchino | well, it might be shorter 5-8 minutes, the call log has the wrong time | 10:49 |
| Stecchino | only mentions a bit over a minute | 10:49 |
| Stecchino | or it might say 1 hour and a few minutes, can't tell | 10:49 |
| ajalkane | If I can trust my call log, I talked last week for 9 minutes on phone. Seemed like an eternity. | 10:49 |
| mece | Stecchino, it's dev hardware issues | 10:50 |
| mece | Stecchino, from what I hear it's not a problem on N9 | 10:50 |
| Stecchino | mece: are you sure? It might be my network, they recently switched from a VDMO to their own call-server | 10:50 |
| Stecchino | *VMNO | 10:51 |
| mece | Stecchino, you are using N950? | 10:51 |
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| Stecchino | mece: yes | 10:52 |
| Stecchino | 661E-RM680 | 10:53 |
| mece | Stecchino, Sorry I missed what the problem actually was. I have no idea about that. Does sound like a software problem, but who knows. | 10:54 |
| Stecchino | mece: just filed a bug on developer.nokia.com | 10:55 |
| mece | man I can't wait to get an N9! Then I could stop worrying about breaking stuff and having to reflash my N950. | 10:56 |
| mece | djszapi, have you got final firmware on your N9 now btw? | 10:56 |
| djszapi | mece: no care about production image, just R&D | 10:56 |
| Stecchino | mece: http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=470 | 10:56 |
| mece | djszapi, ok. | 10:57 |
| djszapi | since I develop the platform, I need R&D. | 10:57 |
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| * artemma have just read about Tizen. It's a pity they decided to focus on HTML5 and not on Qt/QML, but I can understand it. Not bad news after all | 12:21 | |
| djszapi | why can you understand it ? | 12:22 |
| artemma | Qt is controlled by Nokia that proved to be an unreliable partner and humiliated Intel personally | 12:22 |
| Anssi138 | is there qt support as first class citizen or not in Tizen? | 12:23 |
| djszapi | artemma: Nokia did the most for Qt and maemo. | 12:23 |
| djszapi | ever | 12:23 |
| djszapi | well apart from Trolltech for sure. | 12:23 |
| artemma | djszapi: doesn't matter as long as Nokia is known for rapidly changing the course in the middle of everything and letting partners down | 12:24 |
| djszapi | and Qt is actually Open Governance, not "owned" by Nokia. | 12:24 |
| artemma | Anssi138: I believe it's to early to be certain about anything. They state that primary app framework is to be HTML5. I would expect people to be able to create backend/extensions/engines/plugins in Qt with front-end in HTML5 | 12:25 |
| artemma | djszapi: if selop decides to cut Qt financing of Qt tomorrow, no open governance will heal the wound in any reasonable time | 12:26 |
| artemma | not going to happen with HTML5 | 12:26 |
| artemma | and then again, Nokia pissed off Intel personally | 12:26 |
| djszapi | artemma: frankly, you should just read what Thiago wrote more times. | 12:26 |
| artemma | I guess I shouldn't dive into details I don't know well | 12:27 |
| * gri will NEVER do any html, no matter if 3,4 or 5 | 12:27 | |
| artemma | let's say that be I in Intel's/Sansung's place with amount of knowledge I have, I'd try to stay further from anything Nokia-related | 12:27 |
| djszapi | artemma: Intel is much worse than Nokia | 12:28 |
| djszapi | Nokia shipped things, improved things. Intel did nothing. | 12:28 |
| djszapi | I know, we worked with them on MeeGo. | 12:28 |
| eman | artemma: It's probably more about app ecosystem. html has more of a chance of longevity. | 12:28 |
| artemma | "by I in *intel'* place,..." :) | 12:28 |
| Anssi138 | artemma, ok. so i gathered also from tizen channel. but seems to be very hazy area altogether | 12:28 |
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| artemma | djszapi: Mobile came from somewhere hasn't it? | 12:29 |
| artemma | Moblin | 12:29 |
| * Arkenoi got impression is once it gots into some kind of working shape, someone thinks it is a good idea to breed it with some half-dead cadaver and do-nothing multi-B$ consortiums that will just abandon the product a few months later without making any significant investment | 12:29 | |
| djszapi | artemma: All what Intel did in the security area for instance is to copy / paste our work and put Intel title on it. | 12:29 |
| djszapi | artemma: from thiago words: ""All the features" are defined by the Qt release, which is done by the Qt | 12:29 |
| djszapi | community." | 12:29 |
| djszapi | not mentioning any Nokia. | 12:29 |
| djszapi | I am now seeking thiago's post where he actually said please forget this Nokia Qt tiedness | 12:30 |
| artemma | djszapi: I always had an impression that community is people and somehow it happens that most of Qt community people work for Nokia. Theory of open source is totally great until you come to the point who actually pays for the features | 12:30 |
| Arkenoi | ah, and losing next two years trying to mix those things together is mandatory as well | 12:30 |
| djszapi | artemma: you have zero understanding about Open Governance if you say that | 12:31 |
| artemma | Guys, tizen project news are good to me since it is continuation of meego. I can understand the html5 move though not super happy about it, it's a pity that Qt/QML didn't make it to main priorities | 12:31 |
| djszapi | (not offense) | 12:31 |
| artemma | these are my points | 12:31 |
| artemma | everything else is lyrics | 12:31 |
| * RST38h yawns widely, heads for the hills | 12:32 | |
| artemma | djszapi: whoever governs, somebody needs to do work | 12:32 |
| RST38h | artemma: Actually, no, nobody needs ot do work | 12:32 |
| artemma | and most of work is nowadays done by people paid by nokia | 12:32 |
| artemma | RST38h: sure, unless you want to ship something :) | 12:32 |
| djszapi | artemma: that is why we can proud of Nokia. | 12:32 |
| RST38h | artemma: no, you do not | 12:32 |
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| djszapi | exactly, thanks for confirming. | 12:32 |
| RST38h | artemma: Limo or LF surely do not want to ship anything | 12:32 |
| djszapi | be* | 12:32 |
| artemma | I am looking more at Samsung and Intel regarding shipping | 12:33 |
| artemma | ok, that is a theoretical dispute in the area I don't know much anyway and unlikely to learn anything from chat | 12:33 |
| RST38h | artemma: Intel does not produce or ship consumer electronics, it does CPUs | 12:34 |
| artemma | I am still happy MeeGo continues | 12:34 |
| RST38h | artemma: Samsung is very well off with or without Linux | 12:34 |
| djszapi | artemma: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lib.qt.qt5-feedback/552 "PS: stop talking about "Nokia planning". The only thing that matters is the Qt | 12:34 |
| djszapi | community. | 12:34 |
| djszapi | " | 12:34 |
| gri | the same applies for me. I don't care if the system is meego or tizen as long as I can use Qt on my phone :) If that's not available, I will switch to another one ... | 12:37 |
| djszapi | +1 with KDE addition, but yeah. | 12:38 |
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| ajalkane | Exciting times. Morbidly depressing but exciting times. | 12:42 |
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| SpeedEvil | On open phones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=08Wbh6HOWwA#t=21s | 12:43 |
| djszapi | tizen.org - Created On:23-Jun-2011 11:35:06 UTC - it is really 3 months old | 12:47 |
| javispedro | djszapi, meego.com was even older ;P | 12:51 |
| djszapi | well, that is a different thing. The fact is that Intel started it 3 months ago, but they cannot publicly say that. | 12:52 |
| gri | why don't they just create a company for meego and pump millions in it that there's no way back? :D | 12:53 |
| djszapi | so actually the meego security we were doing in Nokia (smack) was actually already formed for tizen. | 12:53 |
| RST38h | Good place to have that security thing, yes | 12:53 |
| Arkenoi | ah, you mean that "trusted" computing where owner of the device is *not* trusted entity? | 12:54 |
| djszapi | funny there are still people with this trolling | 12:54 |
| javispedro | nah | 12:55 |
| javispedro | Intel will never use smack or aegis | 12:55 |
| javispedro | they are now joining the Android club in that they're not exposing a sane glibc API | 12:55 |
| javispedro | so they will do ala Android | 12:55 |
| djszapi | ok, sure, heard from intel security guys working in the tizen, but sure, you know better... | 12:55 |
| javispedro | and just cripple the API as conveniently | 12:55 |
| djszapi | than the internals. | 12:55 |
| djszapi | this is so typical for the Harmattan community. | 12:56 |
| djszapi | They know everything better than even internals. | 12:56 |
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| javispedro | why develop a security API you're not going to use, as you're not going to expose the native API? | 12:57 |
| djszapi | Intel /will/ use smack, internal decisions were made, please stop it | 12:58 |
| djszapi | I do think that is why so many internal employees from different companies do not touch this community | 12:58 |
| eman | Smack is great IMO | 12:58 |
| djszapi | not even any reaction. This is exactly the reason of them in my opinion to avoid all the unneccesary unpleasure. | 12:59 |
| eman | Lack of kernel enforced privacy in maemo is scary | 12:59 |
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| djszapi | Harmattan externals wanted to know better the ongoing things than Nokia internals previously. This time, they wanna know better than Intel internals. Well, I must congratulate. | 13:00 |
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| djszapi | no wonder why internals do not care about the community after these situations. | 13:03 |
| javispedro | djszapi, so, you want to fix the situation by accurately detailing the internals, or, will you continue on fosting the random guessing by providing random statements that have been said to you by "internal employees" for no reason? | 13:04 |
| javispedro | and with no backing? | 13:04 |
| djszapi | yeah sure, my friends at Intel are "random people", sure. | 13:05 |
| djszapi | sorry, I do not need your arrogance, ignore. | 13:05 |
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| * RST38h cackles | 13:05 | |
| * ajalkane takes baby to lap and asks it to watch quietly | 13:06 | |
| dm8tbr | djszapi: this is the final warning, you are talking about 'internal decisions'. The topic clearly states that this is NOT welcome here. I shall remove you if you continue. | 13:07 |
| djszapi | dm8tbr: the smack discussion is completely public | 13:07 |
| djszapi | it is upstream, please stop this bullshit. | 13:07 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dm8tbr | 13:07 | |
| *** dm8tbr sets mode: +q djszapi!*@* | 13:07 | |
| RST38h | dm8tbr: thanks. | 13:08 |
| dm8tbr | for language and being again off topic and abusive | 13:08 |
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| javispedro | hey, look at the positive side, now you have one less reason to care about providing .rpm packaging... | 13:34 |
| * javispedro sighs :( | 13:34 | |
| Venemo | javispedro :( | 13:34 |
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| alterego | I was thinking more about where were be going to be doing our meetups now :/ | 13:51 |
| javispedro | and there's a lot of infrastructure changes to do I bet.. | 13:52 |
| Venemo | who cares anymore? | 13:52 |
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| kkito | hello | 13:52 |
| javispedro | also, if I were Nokia, after what's been released in the Intel press release I'd be quite quick to remove _all_ references to Meego from the product they released yesterday. | 13:52 |
| Venemo | well, consider this as a "fightback" from Intel... after what Nokia did to them. | 13:53 |
| javispedro | so are we splitting again? | 13:53 |
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| javispedro | that would be so fun, I'd die for it to happen and be able to troll on both boards =) | 13:54 |
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| hiemanshu | alterego: you can use my house in India, I have enough place for 100-ish people :P | 13:56 |
| alterego | Heh | 13:56 |
| alterego | I think that might be _too_ big :D | 13:56 |
| alterego | The way things are going. | 13:56 |
| hiemanshu | hah | 13:56 |
| javispedro | :( | 13:57 |
| hiemanshu | well, then you wouldn't even need hotels :P | 13:57 |
| alterego | I'm going to miss the Maemo/MeeGo meetups | 13:57 |
| alterego | They were fun | 13:57 |
| javispedro | so it was true | 13:57 |
| javispedro | the one meego conference I missed was to be the last | 13:57 |
| alterego | Maybe | 13:58 |
| alterego | Actually, yeah | 13:58 |
| alterego | I very much doubt they'll hold the one they promised next year | 13:58 |
| alterego | Actually there were two, dublin and san fran | 13:58 |
| javispedro | =) | 13:58 |
| * javispedro is completely tired about the big reveal mentality | 13:59 | |
| alterego | Maybe that's the problem, maybe they don't want "Community" they just want "Ecosystem" :/ | 13:59 |
| javispedro | I'm gonna completely and totally pass on tizan nietsche or whatever is called | 13:59 |
| javispedro | enjoy harmattan while it lasts | 13:59 |
| javispedro | then go die in a fire or get an iphone. | 13:59 |
| alterego | I'm going to just wait and see how this stuff pans out, the N900, N9 and N950 have a fair amount of life left in them from my perspective | 14:00 |
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| alterego | Even without MeeGo we'll continiue working on CE | 14:00 |
| alterego | So meh :) | 14:00 |
| SpeedEvil | n950 has no life at all. | 14:00 |
| javispedro | I've read the meeting | 14:00 |
| SpeedEvil | It's a complete and utter dead-end. | 14:00 |
| SpeedEvil | But yes. | 14:00 |
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| sivang | re all | 14:01 |
| javispedro | alterego, still, if nokia pulls the plug, meegoCE is no longer the favoured alternative :P | 14:01 |
| alterego | I beg to differ, the N950 has plenty of life from where I'm sitting. | 14:01 |
| javispedro | even SHR would have a similar manpower level | 14:02 |
| alterego | javispedro: there is no alternative. | 14:02 |
| hiemanshu | alterego: try changing to the window seat and look at the fall outside | 14:02 |
| alterego | How would Nokia pull the plug on CE? | 14:02 |
| javispedro | alterego, even more than they already have? ;P | 14:02 |
| SpeedEvil | alterego: It can't have life, when you can't buy one, there are 300 in the 'wild', and if yours dies, you're not getting another. | 14:02 |
| macmaN | somehow the hardware grip of these companies needs to be lifted | 14:02 |
| SpeedEvil | A platform of 300 devs isn't going to work | 14:03 |
| alterego | Even if they stopped allowing maintanance on the closed blobs, we have a lot to work with .. | 14:03 |
| javispedro | alterego, I fully understand, I'm just talking that without manpower infusions from Nokia, MeegoCE is converted into "yet another alternative" | 14:03 |
| gri | macmaN: Read the "Cordia Tab" news? No manufacturer will ever produce hardware (phone or tablet) and release all drivers ... | 14:03 |
| alterego | We have a whole base OS that to all intents and purposes is fully functional. | 14:03 |
| hiemanshu | 300? pretty sure half of them dont care/know about the stuff deep inside | 14:03 |
| alterego | javispedro: yes, but it is still the best alternative ;) | 14:04 |
| javispedro | so far | 14:04 |
| sivang | alterego: ++ for plenty of life | 14:04 |
| macmaN | gri: yes i have. hence the "somehow" | 14:04 |
| alterego | Yes, so it is the one that should continue to be nurtured and worked on. | 14:04 |
| macmaN | gri: it's a damn shame | 14:04 |
| alterego | And it'd be a POS to have HTML5/WAC stuff so we can use Tizan apps .. | 14:04 |
| alterego | If we wanted .. | 14:05 |
| javispedro | what tizan apps | 14:05 |
| javispedro | so tell me. | 14:05 |
| alterego | javispedro: I imagine there will be some eventually ;) | 14:05 |
| javispedro | what Meego app has ever come from Intel? | 14:05 |
| javispedro | except for the tablet UX? | 14:05 |
| alterego | dialer, sms, in fact most stock meego handset apps :P | 14:05 |
| sivang | javispedro++ | 14:05 |
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| sivang | alterego: ah,that's intel's? | 14:06 |
| alterego | Yes | 14:06 |
| gri | alterego: But some of them were written like by an trainee | 14:06 |
| alterego | gri: which ones? | 14:06 |
| gri | alterego: Don't remember, would have to seek again | 14:06 |
| frals | did the calendar go anywhere ever? | 14:06 |
| alterego | gri: bit of a nasty comment to make without any kind of "proof" .. | 14:06 |
| frals | because the one in gitorious was horrible | 14:07 |
| gri | alterego: I can't provide proof in a matter of seconds :) | 14:07 |
| javispedro | alterego, so no apps =) | 14:08 |
| alterego | javispedro: :P | 14:08 |
| alterego | javispedro: more than Nokia it would seem :P | 14:08 |
| javispedro | I mean, unless you are thinking of replacing the UX with WAC entirely | 14:08 |
| alterego | Erm, no | 14:08 |
| alterego | I'd prefer QML personally, with HTML5 as an ability to load apps off of the internet. | 14:08 |
| alterego | If everyone used HTML5/JS to build simple neat mobile clients for web services, I'd be happy. | 14:09 |
| alterego | I can't see HTML5 being used for much more complicated stuff, because HTML/JS isn't really a nice environment to code "proper" apps in. | 14:10 |
| sivang | alterego: but the dialer does not work... | 14:10 |
| alterego | We still need something more, Palm new it with WebOS, Nokia have done something with QML, Silverlight. Etc, etc. | 14:10 |
| alterego | sivang: works for me :P | 14:10 |
| javispedro | but there has been little application activity in the intelmeego front (appup, etc.), and thus, I have little reason to believe there will be more activity in tizan | 14:10 |
| sivang | alterego: almost nothing on handset work for me :) | 14:10 |
| sivang | javispedro++ | 14:11 |
| alterego | sivang: you're using the wrong images then :P | 14:11 |
| sivang | alterego: perhaps :) | 14:11 |
| alterego | javispedro: I wouldn't know without looking at the commit logs, but I'd heard there was still a fair amount of activity. | 14:11 |
| * javispedro is happy with the dialer | 14:11 | |
| sivang | anyway, WP7 does not seem bad anymore | 14:11 |
| alterego | javispedro: thanks ;) | 14:11 |
| * sivang should update images. | 14:11 | |
| javispedro | alterego, I'm still on 1.2 on my N900 though, no idea if it contained your work already ;P | 14:11 |
| frals | "Steelrat is a 100% Tizen compliant operating system designed to allow manufacturers to rapidly develop high-performance Tizen-based devices. " | 14:11 |
| alterego | I admit, it seems I am probably now the sole maintainer of the dialer :/ | 14:11 |
| frals | hmm | 14:11 |
| alterego | javispedro: yes, if it was the SF or after release it was my qML UX work | 14:12 |
| javispedro | :) | 14:12 |
| alterego | Fixed a nice bunch of bugs this week actually, things are still looking quite positive for the dialer. | 14:12 |
| sivang | I also always had issues with doing calls and using the social apps on the tablet as well | 14:13 |
| sivang | it was not even bare for demoing | 14:13 |
| alterego | Without the restraints from Intel I'm a bit more free to work on it without the fear of being trodden on again. | 14:13 |
| alterego | sivang: I guess those that demo'd it would disagree too :P | 14:13 |
| alterego | I have to admit though, the tablet UX seems to have been a complete waste of time now .. | 14:14 |
| sivang | alterego: I download a tablet ux image 3 weeks ago | 14:14 |
| alterego | as has meego ux components ... | 14:14 |
| alterego | sivang: I have no idea about the state of tablet builds. I'm not interested in them :P | 14:14 |
| sivang | alterego: *nothing* works. browsing is barely bareable, IM does not work | 14:14 |
| alterego | sivang: doesn't suprise me :P | 14:14 |
| sivang | alterego: I had some interest, seeing it does not go anywhere - I stopped | 14:15 |
| alterego | Especially if you're using the 1.3 branch | 14:15 |
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| sivang | meego feels like a complete waste of time now and efforts that for me, as coming from the Nokia side of community cold ave gong into app development for Maemo/ Harmattan instead :) | 14:16 |
| alterego | Out of curiosity, what have your efforts been wrt MeeGo? | 14:16 |
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| sivang | alterego: google :) | 14:18 |
| javispedro | sivang, as has been said, it's at least been the cause for the release of a set of free and working open source handset UI | 14:18 |
| sivang | javispedro: right, at lesat that :) | 14:18 |
| javispedro | therefore saying time would have been better inverted into (probably closed) app development for Harmattan.... | 14:19 |
| alterego | And up-to-date redistributable hardware drivers for the N900, N950 and N9 .. | 14:19 |
| javispedro | ... I just cannot agree. | 14:19 |
| javispedro | er... damn you alterego for posting inbetween! ;P | 14:19 |
| sivang | javispedro: I guess you are right, thanks for the cheer up :) | 14:19 |
| alterego | :) | 14:21 |
| alterego | javispedro: I think we understood what you meant to say, and not what it looked like you said because of me :P | 14:21 |
| sivang | javispedro: but again, imagine those parts were not opened, but we now had a linux harmattan platform already in market, where the community is free to develop apps, the ecosystem would have been much more established by now | 14:21 |
| sivang | javispedro: so depending where you look from (open source people even they have to eat) | 14:21 |
| sivang | javispedro: I go back to think it was at least not as good. | 14:22 |
| javispedro | sivang, and then it comes aegis and blocks you from doing anything to it. at least now you can get the phone parts working by switching to meegoCE. | 14:22 |
| alterego | I had a similar discussion with Sts about this the otherday. | 14:22 |
| alterego | It was around the time everyone was bitching to qgil about aegis | 14:22 |
| javispedro | :) | 14:22 |
| alterego | Heh | 14:22 |
| sivang | javispedro: What app are you develiping to you want to circumvent aegis? | 14:22 |
| alterego | Different perspectives view these platforms differently, I'm kinda happy to work around Aegis, but I've not done anything that's been busted up by it. | 14:23 |
| javispedro | sivang, http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy | 14:23 |
| alterego | I would like USB host or OTG, which may require some interesting breakages. | 14:23 |
| * sivang reads | 14:23 | |
| alterego | Yeah, it's all pretty annoying. | 14:25 |
| alterego | bbiab | 14:25 |
| * javispedro leaves too | 14:26 | |
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| sivang | guys, is it just me or are we never satisfied, and please remember I'm the one who stood up with timeless and gave the mega rant talk of the century in dublin. | 14:27 |
| sivang | It seems like given other platforms, Nokia is going a damn long way for us - but we keep on ranting. | 14:27 |
| sivang | Is it just me? | 14:27 |
| sivang | the N9 addresses a good deal of my talk, is towards mass app distribution, truly a user's device | 14:27 |
| SpeedEvil | I don't see how you can argue tat it's going a long way with a legacy platform that is announced to be dead before release. | 14:28 |
| SpeedEvil | And that isn't available in many countries at all. | 14:29 |
| alterego | And with a low distribution channel selection | 14:29 |
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| alterego | If I want one in the UK I'm going to have to fork out a lot of money .. | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | and with no other companies even considering it, and the home company has declared it won't see any follow up devices | 14:30 |
| sivang | being announced to be supported untul 2015 is anounced to be dead? don't take what anounced today for granted. I'm not. | 14:30 |
| sivang | what's truth today, changes tomorrow | 14:30 |
| sivang | see meego/ tizen | 14:30 |
| sivang | I guess I'm easily satisfied and thank Nokia for even releasing the 950 developer kit withing the scope of strategy change. | 14:30 |
| frals | alterego: anyone wanting a N9 is forking out a lot of money ;) | 14:31 |
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| sivang | frals: isn't iPhone 4 expensive as well? or Samasung Galaxy S-II ? | 14:31 |
| sivang | I heard those are not cheap as well | 14:31 |
| SpeedEvil | At the moment, the current stated position of nokia is that meego is a 'distruptive technology' - that will remain being worked on, with no new phones. | 14:31 |
| sivang | still, people own them | 14:31 |
| alterego | I'm kinda lucky I can claim vat back on it, which'll save me the best part of 100 quid | 14:31 |
| frals | sivang: yes, they are at the same price point | 14:32 |
| sivang | frals: so where is the problem ? | 14:32 |
| SpeedEvil | sivang: In the UK, if I was to buy one, I have to import it, and then I have a very limited warranty. | 14:32 |
| frals | sivang: not saying there is, just commenting on alteregos comment... | 14:32 |
| sivang | frals: oh thank you, I'm breaking my wrists here :) | 14:32 |
| SpeedEvil | The cost of importing is quite high, as is the cost of no warranty. | 14:32 |
| frals | expansys is taking preorders, dont they? | 14:32 |
| Venemo | there is already a company in the UK which offers preorders for it | 14:32 |
| sivang | Venemo+++ | 14:32 |
| Venemo | forgot the name since I'm not in the UK | 14:32 |
| frals | i would assume theyd handle the warranty stuff | 14:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Venemo: Ah - wasn't aware of that. | 14:32 |
| sivang | guys | 14:33 |
| sivang | and gals | 14:33 |
| sivang | please cheer up | 14:33 |
| alterego | sivang: it's more about carrier susidising through contracts. | 14:33 |
| alterego | Which wont be available. Which is how most people get their pretty smartphones. | 14:33 |
| sivang | it is not a grim as it may look. | 14:33 |
| sivang | alterego: I never got for their subsiding, it ties to hell out opf you to them. | 14:33 |
| frals | bah, operator lock in... whats the point of a foss device when you are locked to a specific operator? ;-) | 14:33 |
| sivang | alterego: have no answert for tha | 14:33 |
| sivang | frals+++ | 14:33 |
| sivang | alterego: I would rather save a year for the device (given my contractig is not doing so well ;)) then be tied to an operator | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~barf | 14:34 |
| infobot | BLECCH | 14:34 |
| sivang | and Israeli ones are REALLY tyerrbiel | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~moo | 14:34 |
| * infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass | 14:34 | |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: LOL | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~aegis | 14:34 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 14:34 |
| alterego | frals, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about my target audience, I can't tout the N9 to my friends because none of them will want to fork out that much. | 14:34 |
| alterego | Unless they're like me. | 14:34 |
| frals | alterego: fair enough | 14:34 |
| sivang | alterego: but they are happy to lock down with an iPhone that breaks after one fall? | 14:35 |
| frals | alterego: otoh, the N9 target audience don't mind forking out 599€ for a pink phone as far as ive understood the marketing message | 14:35 |
| sivang | I'm sure the price will go down. | 14:35 |
| frals | (see cph design week, sthlm fashion week) | 14:35 |
| * sivang is optimistic | 14:35 | |
| sivang | frals++ | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd not want a smartphone that it in the leash of OVI store and will basically die the day OVI stops working for just this particular device, for one reason or another. While OVI could decide to kill off arbitrary apps from my particular single device on their arbitrary discretion (like appstore did with Spiegel-online, for showing tits on the cover) | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/it in/is on/ | 14:38 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer meant: I'd not want a smartphone that is on the leash of OVI store and will basically die the day OVI stops working for just this particular device, for one reason or another. While OVI could decide to kill off arbitrary apps from my particular single device on ... | 14:38 |
| frals | hmm | 14:38 |
| frals | so you are saying ovi can pull apps from your device? | 14:38 |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: use OVI from the EU ;) tits on cover is okay in the EU :) | 14:39 |
| rantom | frals: I think it's the same method with Google and Apple | 14:39 |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: that argument holds for ANY app store | 14:39 |
| rantom | If they dislike something they can yank it out | 14:39 |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: so just use debian on your device :) | 14:39 |
| frals | rantom: and im not sure this is implemented in harmattan ;) | 14:39 |
| sivang | rantom: any store can | 14:39 |
| sivang | rantom: their right | 14:39 |
| rantom | :) | 14:39 |
| frals | ie the can remove it from store but not enduser device | 14:39 |
| frals | but im not sure | 14:39 |
| rantom | Google can yank it from the device | 14:40 |
| sivang | frals: that would require an interestng infra support :) | 14:40 |
| rantom | Apple, I think, can't | 14:40 |
| frals | sivang: plenty of ways to solve it | 14:40 |
| sivang | rantom: they are working on it , for sure :) | 14:40 |
| rantom | There was some news about Google having the backdoor-access in last year, I think | 14:40 |
| frals | some are very simple actually | 14:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | sivang: that's exactly what I do, my debian is called maemo-fremantle | 14:40 |
| sivang | frals: for my curiosity one example? | 14:40 |
| RST38h | Join the Tizen Group to stay in touch with all the Info regarding this new awesome Plateform! | 14:40 |
| sivang | DocScrutinizer: :) | 14:40 |
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| sivang | RST38h: Righhhhhhhhhhhht.......... | 14:40 |
| frals | sivang: easiest is daily check against a blacklist somewhere and compare with installed packages | 14:40 |
| sivang | they won't fool me thesecond ime around | 14:41 |
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| sivang | frals: okay, easy enough. anyway not the point | 14:41 |
| sivang | to complete in the crazy industry, ths is acceptable | 14:41 |
| sivang | for the consumer linux devices, just like Android | 14:41 |
| frals | there are much more efficient ways as well if its paired with something like OMA DM | 14:41 |
| sivang | frals: agreed, but not sure OVI are doing it? are they? | 14:42 |
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| sivang | frals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMA_Device_Management not specifically for app control, but can be used to implement it yes? | 14:44 |
| * sivang has to go to sleep | 14:44 | |
| sivang | OVI will not do this I think, take apps off your phone. Does not feel like their style. | 14:45 |
| sivang | anywa people, be back later. | 14:45 |
| sivang | don't despair. | 14:45 |
| RST38h | Here is a more serious question: Is normal, standard Qt still safe? | 14:47 |
| RST38h | Can we code in it? | 14:47 |
| sivang | RST38h: why not? | 14:48 |
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| sivang | just read http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy | 14:52 |
| sivang | for me, but maybe I'm terribly stupid. this list looks very much all edge cases and rare use cases. | 14:52 |
| sivang | otherwise app devel is what this platform is for. | 14:52 |
| sivang | and now, laters all. | 14:53 |
| Elessar | is there any chance to send notifications to status bar from QtQuick? | 14:53 |
| Elessar | or it's still possible only from mtf? | 14:53 |
| sivang | Elessar: yes, there's a quick compoenent for that, but I don't remember off hand | 14:53 |
| sivang | bye all | 14:53 |
| * sivang is a bit amazed at the noise created for the aegis "i can't do" list | 14:54 | |
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| Smith | Elessar: see QMLcomponents example | 14:59 |
| Elessar | Smith: I've seen only InfoBanner at it | 15:02 |
| Elessar | but I'm talking about StatusBar (a line at top of the screen) | 15:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sivang: if this is a platform to run mainstream apps and nothing else then I'm not interested in it, I can get this with S40, with iOS, with andridiot, why would I possibly pick a dead platform with just ~50 true apps (+50000 RSS feed "apps")? | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | sivang: mounting my server's storage to the phone, via NFS od sshfs, is not a "niche case" to me. | 15:25 |
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| khertan | DocScrutinizer: mounting nfs .... pffff ... it s so old school | 15:26 |
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| khertan | DocScrutinizer: use a dropbox like sync tool, it s what i use on my n950, n900, desktop pc, and my nas | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | managing my content on the phone via sftp:// and WLAN rather than fsckng USB ass rage mode is another valid demand to "my phone" | 15:27 |
| khertan | it s works via ssh | 15:27 |
| khertan | and no, sorry not yet publicly available, it s still in testing :) | 15:27 |
| * khertan write his own tools :) | 15:27 | |
| eman | DocScrutinizer: Sounds like the problem is just the lack of being able to enable an owner mode. The actual idea of having a secure sandbox for apps is not bad | 15:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | khertan: you think I'm a person to upload my private stuff to some http://dropbox.com? Do you think my avartar looks like I'm an idiot? | 15:28 |
| spenap | ever heard of truecrypt? | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | eman: we are way beyond debating the benefits of sandboxing here - btw aegis doesn't sandbox | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | spenap: ever heard of root servers | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | ? | 15:29 |
| spenap | nope | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | too bad | 15:30 |
| spenap | I'm sorry to disappoint you :P | 15:30 |
| khertan | DocScrutinizer: i didn't use dropbox, i use my own server :) | 15:30 |
| eman | spideroak looks like a secure alternative for those who don't want to roll their own | 15:31 |
| khertan | eman : khtsync too | 15:31 |
| khertan | eman: but not yet available yet | 15:31 |
| khertan | :) | 15:31 |
| khertan | i'm still testing it | 15:31 |
| khertan | :) | 15:31 |
| eman | ah, was just about to google it :) | 15:31 |
| khertan | there is an old release | 15:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | please rethink your contribution of "ever heard of truecrypt" when the topic is about usecases where aegis N9 policy comes throwing sticks at your feet, doing ssfs access to $RANDOM_REMOTE_ADD being one of them | 15:32 |
| khertan | but i rewrite everythings | 15:32 |
| khertan | as the concept was broken | 15:32 |
| eman | k, I'll be keen to see it when it's ready | 15:32 |
| khertan | it s works via ssh :) | 15:32 |
| eman | I've been meaning to setup a spideroak account as I don't have time to muck around (even though I have my own colo box) | 15:33 |
| khertan | no need to reinvent the wheel with a new protocol | 15:33 |
| khertan | :) | 15:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | honestly the next one to deny a valid usecase proposal getting blocked by the MSSF policy, by suggesting it's either not modern anymore, or outright useless (to everybody, as that particular person don't want to use it), or suggests a completely inadequate "workaround" (ala: why sync to your desktop PC contacts? you could use Google) - I'll consider kicking that person! | 15:36 |
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| * javispedro has been brainwashed already | 16:04 | |
| javispedro | love the tentacle^W the tizen! | 16:04 |
| javispedro | <monologue> | 16:05 |
| javispedro | so, I've been thinking, I've said a few times that I actually favour HTML over QML | 16:06 |
| javispedro | then, why the hell I was worried? | 16:06 |
| * javispedro will wait and see | 16:06 | |
| javispedro | </monologue> | 16:06 |
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| hiemanshu | javispedro: hah | 16:20 |
| Anssi138 | why have a proper application when we can have web page. | 16:22 |
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| npm | i favor being able to do both, and use qtwebkit inside my qt apps (e.g. http://code.google.com/p/qtzibit/ http://nielsmayer.com/meego/qml/qtzibit_0.1.0_armel.deb ) | 16:34 |
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| snowpong | javispedro: you'll be able to make fine ui inside html, but I suspect not as elegant as with qml - the real problem is however bindings to the platform (the boring non-ui stuff) - thats the real problem to solve for html apps | 16:44 |
| javispedro | I agree | 16:44 |
| javispedro | tizen's answer is already known, WAC. | 16:44 |
| javispedro | (well, I disagree with the elegant part, but agree with the real problem part) | 16:44 |
| snowpong | javispedro: giant committee of operators trying to agree on APIs? somehow I don't see it happening ;) | 16:45 |
| javispedro | they have already decided | 16:45 |
| javispedro | they mentioned WAC 2.0 | 16:45 |
| * snowpong looks for reference docs | 16:46 | |
| javispedro | snowpong, http://www.wacapps.net/specifications | 16:47 |
| mja | wacapps..? does it not sound like f*ckups a little | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | and indeed it probably just is | 16:55 |
| snowpong | javispedro: doesn't look to bad, they seem to have the basics at least | 16:55 |
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| snowpong | javispedro: know any platforms that actually support it? | 16:55 |
| javispedro | they seemingly have implement that on top of andridiot | 16:55 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Hey. Look. | 17:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | My Metawatch shipped. . . . | 17:13 |
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| doomdog | ~aegis | 17:14 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 17:14 |
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| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: Does it run tizen? | 17:34 |
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| khertan | SpeedEvil: it couldn't, the main goal of tizen is to be unavailable on any device | 17:38 |
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| khertan | it s me, or does mozilla didn't provide anymore mobile version of firefox (aka fennec) for harmattan | 18:18 |
| khertan | it s not anymore listed on mozilla.org | 18:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ( [2011-09-28 12:59:38] <javispedro> enjoy harmattan while it lasts) come back to maemo, you're welcome :-D (we're all still there waiting for you) | 18:59 |
| spenap | DocScrutinizer, didn't read your reply to my comment: I wasn't talking seriously | 19:04 |
| spenap | of course we should be able to use sshfs or whatever with the devices we're supposed to own | 19:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer | spenap: exactly, as this is advertised "FOSS linux debin based", not "we abused and hijacked FOSS to build a locked up ecosystem on top of it (read the fineprint [yet to come] to learn what you may expect from this)" | 19:13 |
| spenap | yes, but honestly, do you expect things to change at this point? | 19:13 |
| spenap | I'm not saying "it's ok" | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | nope | 19:14 |
| spenap | I'm not even saying "let's not try" | 19:14 |
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| spenap | just assume what we got | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm pretty sure Nokia won't move significantly for HARM security policy | 19:14 |
| wazd | djszapiN9: ping? :P | 19:14 |
| wazd | hi all | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | hi wazd | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | somebody said it before: they aren't interested in community, they just care about their ecosystem | 19:15 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: good news, Mer is relevant again ;) | 19:17 |
| spenap | still, even with the limitations, I prefer harmattan over android or ios | 19:17 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: awesome! :) | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | they miss the fact that any ecosystem initially builds around either a) a huge number of commercial sw-houses trying to make money on selling apps, or b) the community | 19:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: so what's the foundation mantra of mer? | 19:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | is it like "community driven anti vendor port, mimicking the former meegoCE"? | 19:21 |
| TSCHAKeee | Stskeeps: did they give you any advance warning that this was happening? | 19:21 |
| TSCHAKeee | they being, those douchebags at the LF? | 19:21 |
| pabs3 | re Mer, http://bugs.debian.org/643678 | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: no, and i am generally positive for various reasons | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: thou shalt not break shit | 19:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | Stskeeps: various reasons? | 19:22 |
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| Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: lot less compliance hassle | 19:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | *nod* | 19:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | compliance really was a dead thud, heh. | 19:23 |
| crevetor | "Tizen devices will ship in first half 2012 #AppUpElements" Say what now ?! | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | same as always? LOL | 19:23 |
| Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: i see it as a component candybox | 19:23 |
| crevetor | Have they already secretly been working on it or is it just a rebrand of meego ?? | 19:23 |
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| TSCHAKeee | crevetor: more bullshit posturing | 19:24 |
| berndhs | i'm sure samsung can have something they can make shippable by then can call "tizen" | 19:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | crevetor: basically, tizen is the meego core, with a web browser slapped on top | 19:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | and yes, i say web browser in the loosest sense of the word | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | runtime | 19:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | yes. | 19:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | makes me sick | 19:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | "Excuse me, why does it take 5 minutes to dial a phone number?" | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | haha right | 19:25 |
| TSCHAKeee | "The web runtime is still parsing the HTML" | 19:25 |
| TSCHAKeee | "OH yeah, and there's javascript in there making all the zoomyzoomyblurryblurry" | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | good argument to get 3GHz multicore into phones ;-P | 19:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | we truly are in a stupid cycle in the tech industry | 19:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | problem is | 19:26 |
| berndhs | good argument to advance battery technology too | 19:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | this stupid cycle has been going on for almost 15 years now | 19:26 |
| pabs3 | DocScrutinizer: laptops first pls | 19:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | and what epitomizes it so much | 19:27 |
| TSCHAKeee | is that ANY TIME _ANYONE_ needs some form of data storage, or to represent any form of data | 19:27 |
| TSCHAKeee | what's the go to? | 19:27 |
| TSCHAKeee | XML. | 19:27 |
| * SpeedEvil knows of a 400GB XML database. | 19:27 | |
| TSCHAKeee | Does it need to be read by humans? | 19:28 |
| TSCHAKeee | no. | 19:28 |
| SpeedEvil | (admittedly, this is just the transportable form) | 19:28 |
| TSCHAKeee | So why are you using XML? | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, D. Adams suggested how to deal with that: tell them the giant intergalactic goose will eat the earth and we send them all to glise835 to desinfect the phoneboothes so we can follow eventually | 19:28 |
| TSCHAKeee | because....i don't know how to deal with .... writing my own file format.... | 19:28 |
| TSCHAKeee | or, today, I booted up a J2EE app, in JBOSS 6, and Shiro | 19:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | ONE .ear | 19:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | root 7735 2.9 60.2 1954100 621888 pts/3 Sl Sep27 28:55 /usr/java/latest/bin/java -server -Xms512m -X | 19:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | *facepalms* | 19:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | i wanna cry. | 19:29 |
| apol_ | Qt.ImhPreferNumbers is not being obeyed in a TextField, can it be fixed somehow? | 19:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Oops. | 19:30 |
| SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm | 19:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Not 400G, only around 300 | 19:30 |
| TSCHAKeee | but at least that's intended to be human consumable | 19:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | SpeedEvil, clearly porting Tizen should be my first project. | 19:35 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 19:37 |
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| GeneralAntilles | (Any repair suggestions for a small 2-stroke engine which stalls after a short period at any throttle position over about 50%) | 19:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | (Seems to be fuel consumption rate related) | 19:38 |
| berndhs | GeneralAntilles: clean the carb and sparks | 19:41 |
| berndhs | GeneralAntilles: replace the fuel filter | 19:41 |
| * spenap checks the channel name :P | 19:41 | |
| berndhs | oh yeah, take pictures of the results with your N9 | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | berndhs, kinda what I figured but I don't want to. I want somebody on the internet to give me an /easy/ solution. *g* | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | spenap, WE'RE BUILDING COMMUNITY | 19:42 |
| spenap | :D | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | :P | 19:42 |
| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: have you seen the sams repair faq site? | 19:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | SpeedEvil, no | 19:43 |
| SpeedEvil | http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/sammenu.htm | 19:43 |
| SpeedEvil | small engines and rotary lawn mowers | 19:43 |
| berndhs | actually fuel filter is not an unlikely cause, after some time the crap in there has shaken up and blocks the flow | 19:44 |
| SpeedEvil | plausible, yes | 19:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there's also a filter in the tank | 19:45 |
| SpeedEvil | fuel tank breather too | 19:47 |
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| djszapiN9 | wazd pong | 19:49 |
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| Daremonai | hello, my content failed ovi's publish qa saying that the application won't launch from the launcher. I'm not exactly sure how to fix it. I have the following .desktop file: http://pastebin.com/H5AAzQ7C - can anyone point me in the right direction? | 20:13 |
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| frals | Daremonai: so err, your apps name is actually "appname"? :P | 20:31 |
| Daremonai | frals: no, hehe, it's the app's name :) | 20:32 |
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| Daremonai | frals: you have any idea what the problem might be? | 20:45 |
| frals | no clue.. i assume the binary runs fine from terminal | 20:46 |
| frals | comparing your .desktop to the others installed could be a thing to do | 20:46 |
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| Daremonai | frals: yes they do, sorry for the late reply | 21:37 |
| Daremonai | it does* | 21:38 |
| Daremonai | it looks very similar to the motoracer project... i really can't tell why it won't launch | 21:45 |
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| Daremonai | blekh, it does work.. i donno what's up with the ovi store/nokia QA team rejecting my app... | 22:14 |
| TSCHAKeee | not like the QA team is flooded with app requests... | 22:15 |
| TSCHAKeee | "oh! Look *random-Finnish-name*! .. It's another app for the N9!" | 22:16 |
| TSCHAKeee | "Wow, I never thought i'd see another one of these!" | 22:16 |
| Daremonai | lol | 22:16 |
| Daremonai | still uncool to have your app rejected while it works perfectly fine | 22:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Daremonai: Odd. On what grounds? | 22:17 |
| Daremonai | SpeedEvil, they said that the app isn't launching from the launcher, but it is. | 22:17 |
| Daremonai | SpeedEvil, I've tried it several times, also it runs correctly from the terminal and the .desktop file tells it to run the same path | 22:18 |
| RST38h | My experience shows that you need someone at Nokia to personally nudge the qa people,or your app never passes | 22:18 |
| Daremonai | RST38h, meh! I'm not that well connected... | 22:18 |
| Daremonai | i sent an email to publishtoovi... just now, and resubmitted the same .deb package | 22:20 |
| Daremonai | I hope they test it correctly/fairly now | 22:20 |
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| lardman | anyone ever used ZXing? | 22:37 |
| lardman | I've got the C++ compiled and in a library and just wondering about the api and code structure when scanning for different barcode types if anyone has any experience of using it in Java | 22:39 |
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| MohammadAG | good aftertizen everyone | 23:05 |
| rantom | MohammadAG: \o | 23:05 |
| faenil | yueah... :( | 23:05 |
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| Khertan_webchat | lol MohammadAG | 23:11 |
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| lardman | hey MohammadAG | 23:24 |
| MohammadAG | heya lardman Khertan_webchat rantom | 23:31 |
| Khertan_webchat | heya | 23:31 |
| Khertan_webchat | it s now official ... they have kill open source os on mobile | 23:32 |
| MohammadAG | I'm thinking of buying a Xoom | 23:32 |
| MohammadAG | Tizen means two asses in arabic, just saying | 23:34 |
| lardman | lol | 23:34 |
| MohammadAG | more like tee, but the i can sound like that | 23:34 |
| lardman | re Xoom - Android, hmm | 23:34 |
| MohammadAG | looking at the competition: | 23:35 |
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| lardman | HP Touchpad perhaps? | 23:35 |
| MohammadAG | iPad - iOS | 23:35 |
| MohammadAG | TouchPad - chances of finding a living dinosaur are better than those of finding one | 23:36 |
| lardman | Who have Meego just announced a merger with, the group that includes Samsung iirc | 23:36 |
| lardman | MohammadAG: yeah | 23:36 |
| * lardman is watching dinosaurs on tv atm too :) | 23:37 | |
| MohammadAG | and believe me, finding a dinosaur is hard | 23:37 |
| MohammadAG | lardman, I know you are, muhahaha | 23:37 |
| lardman | damn this laptop webcam! | 23:37 |
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| * lardman is waving at MohammadAG | 23:38 | |
| * MohammadAG waves back | 23:38 | |
| lardman | :) | 23:38 |
| lardman | I'm still not keen on the whole 10" table thing - great for using, but I won't bother to take it anywhere with me | 23:44 |
| lardman | s/table/tablet | 23:44 |
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| Khertan_webchat | MohammadAG: lol i was looking at competition too | 23:46 |
| Khertan_webchat | kindle fire is cheap | 23:46 |
| Khertan_webchat | depends on what you need | 23:47 |
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| lardman | what's the name for the type of sw that you use to store details of your books, cds, dvds, etc.? | 23:54 |
| * lardman looks to see what could run on his Tab under Ubuntu | 23:54 | |
| Khertan_webchat | lardman: Nautilus | 23:56 |
| Khertan_webchat | :) | 23:56 |
| lardman | :p | 23:58 |
| lardman | nah, there are pieces of software that allow you to catalogue your book, CD, DVD collection, etc. | 23:58 |
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