IRC log of #harmattan for Wednesday, 2011-09-28

DocScrutinizerjavispedro: pretty good, will add stuff that comes to mind and isn't covered yet00:01
javispedroexactly what I want :)00:01
SpeedEvilaegis blocks?00:03
SpeedEvilIs this a tetris-like-game?00:04
javispedrocouldn't think of a better name ;)00:04
djszapi"Aegis limitations".00:04
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* javispedro renames00:06
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javispedro :)00:06
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: if you were editing, just save, I'll fix it.00:08
djszapisandst1: mmm, the debian folder you gave me did not contain debian/myapp.files file (meaning that the package is empty). How does it work on fremantle ?00:08
alteregoThis QRCode generator QML component is neat :)00:08
DocScrutinizernot editing, just wondered what if I had already dropped a bookmark00:09
djszapisandst1: ahhh .files is autogenerated, unless your rules file is severely broken.00:09
alteregoTo stick a QRCode into your QML application just do this:
qgilwouldn't it be useful to distinguis, if possible, Aegis from the N9 device policy?00:09
DocScrutinizerhmm, yeah00:10
djszapiqgil: In my opinion, it should be device independent.00:10
DocScrutinizerqgil: actually it's not aegis that'S bad, but obviously the way it's used/configured00:11
qgildjszapi: I'm referring to
qgilare these "Aegis limitations" or policy limitations applied to the N9?00:11
qgil( and N950)00:11
djszapiqgil: yes00:11
DocScrutinizerI bet javispedro already edits it this moment00:12
djszapiqgil: a hacker can buy an N9, and that person still can have these limitations.00:12
DocScrutinizerqgil: absolutely right :-D00:12
qgilsure, but then one day Aegis is picked  by other OS/vendor and then a bunch of OSS enthusiasts following this "Aegis discussion" will automatically think that "Aegis is not really FOSS" etc00:13
javispedrogoing to call it "Activities blocked by the N9/N950 security policy" at the end ;P00:13
DocScrutinizernono, aegis as a framework is pretty good regarding implemetation and options it has - it's clearly the policy on harmattan that is mere ****00:14
qgilfor the small group of people really knowing Aegis this doesn't matter - for the bigger amount of people (like me) more ignorant about Aegis and security frameworks (like me) getting confused is easy00:14
qgilI'm nopt an engineer but I'm (I was) a journalist and I'm just asking to call the things by its name00:14
DocScrutinizerthat'S why we appreciate your advice here :-D00:15
berndhsthat's an important point, if you dith aegis and get another tool to enforce the same policy, you have the same problems00:15
qgiland the things you are complaining about in that wiki page are more about the N9/N950 policy than about Aegis framework itself00:15
infobotberndhs meant: that's an important point, if you ditch aegis and get another tool to enforce the same policy, you have the same problems00:15
djszapiqgil: I agree, people were swearing about aegis, but it is simply a policy issue.00:15
djszapiaegis does what it was supposed to do.00:15
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: granted00:16
qgil... and probably the policy also does ehat it was supposed to do, we "just" need to configure it better - it seems00:16
djszapiyeah, the problem is the thing what the policy was supposed to do.00:17
berndhswell, the policy seems to be that a user is not supposed to run his/her own code on the device00:17
DocScrutinizerit's about a way higher general goal/concept of what a developer is supposed to do on "meego", and that will determine how the policy is tailored in the end00:18
qgilI bet (because I haven't been involved and don't know myself) that the current policy makes happy Ovi, operators and legal frameworks in a bunch of countries00:18
djszapis/Aegis limitations/Security policy limitations/00:19
qgilwithout bothering the average app developer00:19
DocScrutinizerI admit there's probably no issue with aegis policy on harmattan as long as developers don't want to do anything but QML coding and a few silly file accesses00:19
qgilif you look at the use cases listed, the easy/conservative answer is "anyway, that is not supported"00:19
berndhsI think there _is_ a fundamental problem with trusted enties, in that the owner of the device isn't trusted00:20
qgilnow, we must look at those use cases one by one and, like in a house of cards, see how we can remove/change bits of the policy not compromising tyhe rest of the house00:20
DocScrutinizerqgil: the problem is this is implicitly supported on what a usual developer thinks is a linux system00:20
DocScrutinizerthat's why I asked you "is FOSS still FOSS when you can't edit it?"00:21
qgilberndhs: are you sure that in some big market having a pre-installed and visible option for "developer mode" wouldn't pose a liability on Nokia if a user turns that on and then installs an app that sucks zillion euros from his operator account via silent SMSs (to put a stupid example)?00:21
crevetoralterego: is this the new QRcode stuff ?00:21
alteregoSome of it :)00:21
alteregocrevetor: I've implemented a generator now00:22
berndhsqgil: it might be, but let's be honest, that is not the reason for not trusting the user00:22
alteregoWhich is what that pastie was about.00:22
crevetorOh Ok I see00:22
javispedro(remove/change bits of the policy not compromising the rest) that's difficult, as djszapi has pointed. the obvious solution -- to give some tokens back, like sys_admin -- also brings in too many other privileges, and even I understand that allowing certain things while restricting others is sometimes ComputerSciency-diffcult.00:22
alteregocrevetor: packages:
qgilthe N9 sold in markets is not like a Raspberry_Pi or a laptop with the Ubuntu you installed, there are some obvious OSS use cases that might have less obvious implications00:22
qgilI'm not justifying the policy00:22
alteregocrevetor: still need to iron out some stuff with the reader.00:22
qgilas said, I have no clue nor any background on the discussions00:22
crevetoralterego: I've got URL opening working and I'll be implementing Vcard import soon00:22
djszapiI wish I could say things...00:22
crevetoralterego: but indeed the reader is ... flaky00:23
qgilI'm just saying that there are ore aspects around00:23
berndhsqgil: the trusted enties are the manufacturer, the phone company, and certificate holders of 289 companies you never heard of00:23
qgilberndhs: djszapi seems to have answers that he can't share - I have no answers therefore nothing to share either. I'm not discussing with your or telling you you are wrong, I'm just trying to put things into perspective00:24
alteregocrevetor: hah, I was going to do vcard export and import as a test actually in a few moments :P00:25
DocScrutinizerqgil: I'm pretty sure there's no liability of $MANUFACTURER when user throws a switch and enters "yes I've been warned. I'll do it nevertheless!"00:25
berndhsqgil: yes I understand that. we wont be able to address this issue in this forum, but I think it is worth stating still00:25
qgilDocScrutinizer: what is your daily job?00:25
DocScrutinizerproject lead hw&sw00:26
qgilok, then you saying "I'm pretty sure" is as useful as me saying "I'm pretty sure" in case of a real legal case  :)00:26
qgilbut I'm speculating so I'll stop here00:27
DocScrutinizerI'm deducing from similar cases00:27
qgilvainio seems to be following this and he seems to be optimistic00:27
qgilagain, I don't know more because, honestly, my focus these days is more on other aspects e.g. Qt Project, what is going on with MeeGo project, etc00:27
qgilas a regular app developer Aegis & the policy don't bother _me_00:28
javispedrono need to explain that00:28
DocScrutinizeryou may have to print a warning on the rat poison, but you're not liable if somebody eats it nevertheless, ignoring the warning and the bitter taste00:28
javispedroask if iPhone's closedness hurts their app developers00:28
kimjuqgil, about legalese, who should be asked about clarifying what "You may not (or allow others to) enable any logic or protocols in the Product that are disabled when delivered to You by Nokia." in PLA really means?00:28
crevetoralterego: well vcard import is somewhat easy : save teh vcard data to a vcf file and use qt.openurlExternally on that file and boom : vcard import00:29
qgilkimju: I guess you know what that sentence means. What is your question?  :)00:29
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djszapicrevetor: I wrote intructions about that how to import on the wikipage.00:29
faenilseen 8 updates on my n95000:30
faenilanything new?00:30
djszapifaenil: normal00:30
kimjuqgil, as I'm working on custom kernel, I'm concerned if enabling any new kernel options is forbidden by that.00:30
crevetordjszapi: cool. Where exactly ?00:31
qgilwe were just talking about things you write down and make the user accept in order to cover your backs, right00:31
DocScrutinizerqgil: and, on a sidenote, we in here all got DEVELOPER devices, not consumer devices for mass market00:31
qgilDocScrutinizer: sure, developer devices with the same capabilities as the final commercial devices (hardware permitting)00:32
DocScrutinizerqgil: and aegis makes it dead simple to grant or deny, even revoke such a permission00:32
djszapiI think there is no difference between developer device and final device regarding the policies.00:32
qgilotherwise imagine your complain if e.g. we distributo N950s with open meode only, you code all your stuff and the you see it capped whenever the N9 comes to the shops00:33
DocScrutinizerthat's the crux00:33
DocScrutinizerthere *should* be a difference00:33
qgilthe current situation might not be nice, but at least you know it's the real situation00:33
faenilqgil: +1, sad but true00:33
alteregocrevetor: mobility has vcard import and export APIs00:33
DocScrutinizerqgil: sorry, you missed my comment about the switch in settings to enable/disable "developer mode"00:34
faenilDocScrutinizer: but see it like this, we were given a device to code apps for a final N9...and it works for that. So...I see nothing wrong in there00:34
DocScrutinizerwhy would DEVELOPER devices come with no consumer device mode to enable on throw of a switch?00:34
qgilDocScrutinizer: you all got the N950 after signing a contract saying that this is a developer device, not a commercial product00:34
javispedrofaenil: you come from symbian. you are used to their weird wims.00:34
faeniljavispedro: XD00:34
alteregojavispedro: or his definition of apps :P00:34
crevetoralterego: I saw that but I don't know how it's presented to the user00:35
alteregocrevetor: it's not, it just happens.00:35
berndhsif you look at the list on the meego developer program, not everyone wrote they would make N9 apps for OVI00:35
djszapithere should be no difference between n950 and n9 regarding the policies.00:35
alteregocrevetor: you present it as you want.00:35
djszapiif there is a difference, then there is a big problem ongoing there.00:35
crevetoralterego: I like the way it behaves using Qt.openUrlExternaly (you can merge or create a new one, etc)00:35
DocScrutinizerqgil: so that's the rationale why it comes with aegis policy in consumer mode only ?  that we signed a paper that says it's a developer device? you lost me00:35
crevetoralterego: somebody already wrote what I want ;)00:35
alteregocrevetor: sure, but that's a bit messy, unless you save to /tmp I guess :)00:35
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crevetoralterego: That's what I was planning to do. And remove the file once it has been imported (or discarded)00:36
qgilDocScrutinizer: you are loosing me too  :)  I'm just saying that developer device and commercial device come with the same policy because ultimately the developer devices are given to produce software for the commercial device (in Ovi or elsewhere, doesn't matter)00:36
djszapiN9 buyers can also have the capability to have "complete" open and, and the N950 users can also have the capability to not have "complete" open mode that would be requested by people including me.00:37
DocScrutinizererr ???00:37
faenildjszapi: u lost me00:37
DocScrutinizeremphasis on "to produce software" which definitely isn't what a consumer device is supposed to support00:38
djszapithere is no difference in policies between those devices according to a proposal.00:38
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qgilI believe djszapi says that N9 buyers will be able to have e.g. MeeGo CE and then do whatever00:38
DocScrutinizerso why would it need to be limited to do only what a consumer device can do?00:38
qgilDocScrutinizer: install your OS and run?00:38
djszapiqgil: yeah, there is no reason to limit them if they would like to have "Complete" open mode.00:38
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DocScrutinizersorry, I'm puzzled to a state where headache starts00:39
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qgilDocScrutinizer: in which timezone are you?00:39
qgil(I'm datamining you)00:39
alteregocrevetor: actually you're right, there's no way of loading from text :(00:40
qgilMy personal summary:00:40
alteregocrevetor: in QML you have to save/load from a file URI as well.00:40
qgil- The N9 comes with a policy that is flexible enough to do many things with the current OS, and allows you also to reflash with something else00:40
faenilkeeping hw warranty?00:41
qgil- The current policy perhaps can be fine tuned - that wiki page helps finding out what are the pain points00:41
qgil- The open mode needs to be... defined? released? documented? I honestly don't know00:41
djszapi(May I have a question?)00:41
SpeedEvilDo we know - publically - yet what the deltas are between released n9, and the 'current' external nokia image?00:41
qgil- In anycase the MeeGo CE is also coming to the N9 (again afaik) and there a developer would have something as open as a slick pandaboard00:42
crevetoralterego: Well I was thinking of maybe writing a c++ part that would use QtVersit to import a vcard but then it's "a lot" of work to do exactly what openUrlExtarnally does so...00:42
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qgilpersonal summary ended00:42
djszapiSpeedEvil: no, that is the point. It should have a wow-effect00:42
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faenilqgil: what bout warranty'00:43
qgilfaenil: I'm 40 years old and I have never used a warranty - that should tell you my interest in the topic (sorry if this answer is too personal, then again the question was vague)00:44
djszapifaenil: warranty is gone.00:44
alteregoqgil: as open as a slightly more powerful beagle board with a warranty warning on boot :P00:44
faenildjszapi: ok so it's like being able to flash Android on an HTC HD2, right?00:44
djszapifaenil: as soon as you give up the platform, the warranty is of course gone.00:44
SpeedEvildjszapi: I don't think that's legal.00:44
qgilbut can't you flash Harmattan back and get into warranty territory again? (wasn't that the case in N900 and predecessors?)00:44
javispedroplus, whether one will ever be able to boot harmattan in "open mode"/"aegisless"/"with a custom kernel" is still an open question.00:44
djszapiqgil: nope, if the custom kernel destroyed the hardware for instance.00:45
javispedroit is quite clear that one will be able to do it for MeegoCE.00:45
grifaenil: iPod touch also loses warranty when you jailbreak it and they exchanged mine without a word00:45
faenilgri: that's another thing ;)00:45
djszapifaenil: I do not know about that model, sorry.00:45
berndhsthere's warranty, and then there's liability00:46
alteregoqgil: yes, you can flash back, etc.00:46
javispedronote that so far, word is out the disclaimer will contain the words "warranty voided permanently"00:46
alteregoAnd Nokia don't seem to care too much about "accidental" OC damaging of units :/00:46
qgilI joined Nokia in 2007 when the N800 was popping out. Since then I have never heard someone sayiong "Nokia Care won't take my device because I installed A B C". Just a statistic.00:47
alteregoqgil: exactly, I really don't think Nokia Care, care ..00:47
* alterego chuckles00:47
javispedroqgil: that's probably true, and I can expect that noone will do that for an N9. Still...00:47
* SpeedEvil wonders if anyone will manage to get n9 from n900 repair fail.00:47
qgilStill... what?00:48
alteregoI really think you should argue this whole warranty problem when there is actually a problem ..00:48
alteregoSo far, there is no problem ..00:48
javispedroyou know, next time someone makes a youtube video about how easy is to "root it", compared to other platforms, and a) you will be have to boot meegoce, instead of harmattan/swipe ui b) you will get a rather large warning about warranty being void00:48
djszapi"so far" is not too professional.00:48
javispedros/you will be have/you will have00:48
javispedrothat is what makes me sad00:49
qgilwho is working on MeeGo CE on the N9?00:49
faenilI'm starting :)00:49
faeniljust joined00:49
javispedronoone can boot it so far.00:49
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javispedrowell, not "publicly"...00:49
faenilby working on Meego CE I mean code, I have never flashed it yet00:50
javispedro(but this is expected to be fixed "soon", as in, this week...)00:50
qgilI mean, isn't a team populated with Nokia engineers who is working on CE releases with the aim of making a N9 compatible version?00:50
djszapiqgil: you could ask Stskeeps.00:50
crevetorMaybe Jukka00:50
djszapihe was the previous ARM maintainer for N90000:51
faenilthere are some Nokia people in the team afaik00:51
qgiler... I don't need to ask, I just stating00:51
crevetorqgil: yeah you work there right ?!00:51
qgilmy point, which actually just echoes what alterego says: there haven't been problems with warranties vs "rooted" or modified devices that we are aware of?00:52
qgilplease understand if I don't spend much time discussing the several alternative scenarios00:52
djszapiqgil: we did not have problems with security yet either, but it still made sense to make one. This is not a professional arguement.00:52
qgildjszapi: now you lost me  ;)00:53
artemmajukka twitted just today that he's able to run N950 apps on N900 without recompilation00:54
djszapiI am just saying if I as a device and software provider made a device and software. I would not stand the warranty if a software would use the device I am not even aware of. I cannot take the guarantee for that software.00:54
faenilI'm sorry but I have to leave, hope to be able to jump into this discussion again00:54
faenilhave a nice evening guys00:54
javispedrocya faenil00:54
djszapisleep well00:54
qgildjszapi: your answer is correct00:54
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djszapimeaning that, if complete open mode or custom kernel got into the device, warranty is also gone logically.00:55
qgiland when I say that I'm not aware of any warranty problem after 6 years of Maemo devices I'm also correct00:55
javispedrothat's true. But it should not be used as an excuse.00:55
qgilnow everybody here take your conclusions and move forward  :)00:55
TSCHAKeeein other words... "chill."00:56
djszapiqgil: so you are saying that Nokia is more tolerant than logical ? :)00:56
javispedroas by that thought alone, you could say that virtually any other manufacturer is as friendly00:56
crevetordjszapi: they don't give a f*ck about the N9 anyways ;)00:56
qgiljavispedro: excuse for what? I you want official statements then you have the list of officially supported features and the EULA...00:56
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artemmaIs it really so that I cannot use both import Qt.labs.components.native 1.0 and  import 1.0 in the same project? :/ I am trying to define harmattan wrapper as PageStackWindow, but with Page from components.native (for reusing in Symbian, etc) and the change of import produces errors inside PageStack00:57
javispedroqgil: I am always thinking in the "look how easy is to root this device"-video context00:58
qgiljavispedro: what else can we do? there is a solid legal framework, the is a flexible "hacker" framework and there is people at Nokia listening your feedback and trying to improve the current situation00:58
SpeedEvildjszapi: The vendor cannot simply say that the warranty is void - the law doesn't work like that.00:59
SpeedEvildjszapi: They can only reduce what they are willing to do where it exceeds what the law would normally allow.00:59
DocScrutinizerfact is and that's sad: Nokia promised open mode *IN* harmattan, not an option to flash your own OS that of course is open then00:59
DocScrutinizerand Nokia obviously isn't delivering00:59
DocScrutinizer(me out again)00:59
djszapiSpeedEvil: if that is really the truth, that is a very sad law.01:00
qgiljavispedro: but don't you think that Nokia is already assuming that it's easy to root the N9, just like it's predecessors?01:00
qgil"Developer mode" even being in the Settings UI?01:01
djszapiSpeedEvil: since it means the law limits the rationale.01:01
javispedroqgil: the problem is that, once you read about all of this, you realize that's a lie.01:01
SpeedEvildjszapi: 'warranty void if device is exposed to a temperature outside  of 20-23C'01:02
SpeedEvilYou cannot make unreasonable exclusions.01:02
javispedroqgil: the real open mode is in that you can install MeegoCE. But this is an offer many Android device makers also do, as was pointed in a previous dicussion on #meego, as they offer you to install the AOSP version "at your own risk", losing whatever the device maker kept propietary.01:02
qgilDocScrutinizer: I must ask about thet open mode01:02
djszapiSpeedEvil: we were speaking about an unexpected software, not hardware environt.01:02
qgiljavispedro: I think you are upset about something01:03
djszapisandst1: I found the root cause of the /usr/local issue! :p01:03
qgilhomework for me: check with vainio & others what is happening with the open mode and make sure they are aware of the wiki page01:04
djszapiqgil: Unfortunately, you are completely right. We do not defense against xresponse...01:04
djszapimeaning that anybody can turn your device into Developer mode with a small attack, having more capabilities and the like.01:05
crevetorqgil: How big is/was the N9 team ?01:05
qgilcrevetor: not allowed to say01:05
crevetorqgil: oh ok. May I ask why ?01:05
qgilhave you found a big company answering this question?01:06
crevetorI've never asked another big company01:06
qgiltry  :)01:06
crevetorI'll try asking one of my friends at RIM...01:07
javispedroqgil: yes, you are right, I'm partially upset. I've criticised Android many times for their fake openness and lies, and thus I don't feel good about my favourite platform virtually going to do the same.01:08
javispedrobut, I'm not continuing on the Aegis thread because I understand that there has been "slight" movement on the steering wheel of the ship, and I'm waiting to see the results.01:08
crevetorjavispedro: Harmattan is way more open than android anyways01:09
djszapiplease please guys, do not start it again :p01:09
djszapiI will buy a chocolate for everybody :p01:09
qgiljavispedro: then the wiki page is a good point, leave "Aegis" in peace and put the focus in the "N9 policy" and the cool stuff that can't be done with the current situation01:09
crevetorYeah that was kind of trolly...01:09
qgilthis really helps people lie vainio or me picking the right battles with the right people01:09
crevetorqgil: the thing that can't be done in the current situation is deving NFC-enabled apps :'(01:10
qgilcrevetor: to the wiki page then, even better with details (since Nokia would want to have NFC apps developed everywhere)01:11
djszapisandst1: -> could you please push the fix here, or shall I do it ?01:11
javispedroI guess crevetor's being ironic here or pointing the lack of NFC on the N950 ;)01:11
javispedro(aegis doesn't forbid nfc apps at all)01:11
qgilah well01:11
javispedro(so far ;D )01:11
DocScrutinizerqgil: you're aware that harmattan dies the day OCI store closes down, are you?01:11
qgilsorry for sending you the N950 then  ;)01:11
qgilDocScrutinizer: ???01:12
DocScrutinizerdevelopers can't deploy apps without OVI signing infra01:12
crevetorqgil: this wiki page : ?01:12
javispedrothere will need to be a rather large talk once the end of support for the N9 starts to appear on the horizon01:13
javispedrothe topic will be the community SSU ;)01:13
crevetorqgil: javispedro: I was sort of being ironic but if I get an N9 I would definitely dev some NFC-enabled apps01:13
javispedrocrevetor: and all of us I bet ;)01:13
crevetorjavispedro: then it's a good incentive for nokia to manke an N9 dev program01:14
qgilDocScrutinizer: so are you making me worry now for an scenario where the Nokia sign-in infrastructure just disappears?01:14
qgilso Nokia disappears, where would you deploy apps for N90 users?01:14
javispedrothe problem is that Aegis adds another obstacle; were Nokia to disappear tomorrow, community would not be able to provide upgrades as they have had with the N900.01:15
qgil... and that is a good point I saw in the wiki page, yes01:15
DocScrutinizerNokia won't disappear (I hope), they just stop support for N9 after 2 yeras, as they did with N8x0 and N90001:16
crevetorI think if Nokia disapears they would have enough time to either open source all harmattan or make sur people can still use it without them being around01:16
alteregog'night folks01:17
javispedrocya alterego01:17
crevetorqgil: you have a N9 and an N950 right ?01:19
crevetorqgil: do you prefer the N9 hardwarewise ?01:20
DocScrutinizercrevetor: Nokia doesn't even care to open up sources for silly buggy parts of fremantle (like mce) while they open up same code, just a too advanced version, for meegoCE when stskeeps asks politely. So how good are the chances Nokia will open up sources for fremantle or harmattan, or even deploy their signature key, when they switch to producing rubber boots again?01:20
crevetordocScrutinizer: Stskeeps will ask nicely when that happens ;)01:21
DocScrutinizerplease stop trolling01:21
MohammadAGheya qgil :)01:21
javispedrowhat goes next can be deduced, one just needs to ask as politely as stskeeps =)01:21
crevetordocScrutinizer: I mean the initial question itself is useless. Nokia hasn't disappeared, and probably won't within the next 5 years. Ask again when they do..01:22
javispedrocrevetor: too late by then01:23
MohammadAGSomeone broke my illegal FM transmitter :/01:23
DocScrutinizercrevetor: please read *all* postst related to a thread, we were talking about Nokia stopping support, not about Nokia vanishing01:23
MohammadAGnot that it was any better than the N900's built in transmitter, but still :/01:23
DocScrutinizercrevetor: which they evidently did for diablo, and now fremantle01:24
qgilfirst batch of N9s leaving the factories as we speak, and already having a intense discussion for the day Nokia concludes the support & guarantee... Okl I'll go back to that patch I was planning to commit  ;)01:24
javispedrothanks for the conversation01:25
qgila pleasure, as always01:25
DocScrutinizerqgil: if you're not discussing life cycle and EOL of a product on rollout, when else do you want to talk about concepts that allow or forbid a sane life cycle management?01:26
qgilany buyer of the N9 will have the guarantee period stated01:26
DocScrutinizerok, so it's supposed to be binned after warranty expired - thanks for the statement01:27
qgilfor the rest, this is #harmattan IRC channel, you are free to discuss about this, and I have no role on decision on those topics even if I happen to work at Nokia01:27
qgilDocScrutinizer: you seem to be even more upset about something01:27
qgilif you want to put a meaning in my IRC words that's ok, it won't change a thing on Nokia's plans01:28
crevetorqgil: you haven't answered my question about your preference between N9 and N950.01:29
qgilI joined this channels 2h ago, the result is that I will ping vainio and attila about open mode and javispedro wiki page. The rest was the usual IRC discussion, interesting and etc01:29
qgilah, N901:29
crevetorqgil: hum. Why ? (tell me if I'm annoying you with my questions)01:30
qgilthinner, amazing display/camera combo, it feels really good in the hand, slick design01:30
qgilbefore the N9 I was always a hardware keyboard guy, but this beauty changed my mind01:31
crevetorqgil: you don't miss the HW keyboard (I have to say I don't use it tht often on the N950)01:31
djszapiqgil: May I ask you how attila comes into the picture ?01:31
TSCHAKeeeI use the on screen keyboard on my N950 exclusively01:31
TSCHAKeeeit works great01:31
crevetorqgil: the display and the camera are really better on the N9 ?01:31
TSCHAKeeeso i don't see the whole waah waah of not having one on the N9. (and yes, I have an N900 too)01:31
artemmaI've seen more than one developer that was expecting to be happy about N950 keyboard and then confessed that didn't use hardware one for over a month01:31
qgilwell, vainio and attila work in the same team at Nokia Developer and both know this community and the needs of a software freedom lover01:32
artemmaon screen keyboard is just that good and hardware one.. well, not super-great. Not great enough to beat the onscreen one01:32
crevetorTSCHAKeee: same. I type a bit faster on the HW keyboard though and sometimes it's good to have that screen space for something else01:32
qgilcrevetor: no idea about the camera but the display is visibly better on the N9, you have to see it (and touch it)01:33
crevetorartemma: I miss the accents on the HW keyboard I wish a long press would do the same as a long press on the VKB01:33
griqgil: What's your color?01:33
qgilgri: black, but wasn't given a chance  :)01:33
crevetorqgil: I wish.. I'm in Canada though so I'm not expecting to see it anytime soon :( I've seen one in Moscow but it was off...01:34
artemmaqgil: some release notes stated that N950 and N9s camera modules are "similar"01:34
crevetorBut I'd like to have the clock while the phone is on standby, that's just awesome01:34
MohammadAGartemma, they're similar but different :P01:34
crevetorisn't the one on the N950 a "downgraded" 12px ?01:34
MohammadAGTo me, the only con of the N9 is the PenTile screen arrangement01:35
MohammadAGbut I guess I'll have to see it to decide01:35
crevetorMohammadAG: you're in NYC right ?01:35
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MohammadAGNYC? lol, I'm half a planet away from that, IL01:37
MohammadAGqgil, RGB vs PenTile01:37
crevetorIL ?01:37
crevetorIllinois ?01:37
crevetorOh ok01:37
crevetorIs the N9 planned to launch in Israel ?01:37
griMohammadAG: Which side of the wall?01:37
MohammadAGNo idea, ask Nokia :P01:38
MohammadAGthough I rarely get my phones from IL01:38
SpeedEvilI remain unconvinced by pentile - if the software doesn't know about it.01:38
MohammadAGgri, not the Palestinian territories01:38
crevetorqgil: Israel ? (I'm asking Nokia ;))01:38
SpeedEvilPretending it's just a triplet display, with a teeny little ASIC in it to convert, without the underlying software knowing otherwise is not going to optimise performance.01:39
qgilhardware, sales, teams... good collection of topics I ignore or can't answer ;)01:39
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griMohammadAG: Then you miss the great beer they have over there :) I forgot the name :/01:40
MohammadAGgri, Oktoberfest?01:40
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crevetorqgil: I was kind of expecting that ;)01:40
MohammadAGI can't ship my N950 back till Monday :/01:40
qgilfor your pleasure01:40
MohammadAGor Sunday actually01:40
griMohammadAG: No, I meant they have some good brewerys in palestinian terretories01:40
djszapisandst1: after fixing that, I can see the icon on the applauncher page.01:42
djszapisandst1: kinda usable, am really missing the native look'n'feel :)01:43
crevetorqgil: what wiki page were you reffering to earlier (the one where I should say that it'd be nice to be able to develop NFC enabled apps) ?01:43
qgilcrevetor: I was referring to javispedro 's but I didn't get your irony in the middle of all the "Aegis won't allw this and that"01:44
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crevetorqgil: It wasn't that ironic.01:45
qgilok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!01:46
* SpeedEvil waves.01:46
crevetorsee you qgil01:48
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djszapisandst1: it does not show my program.xml :(02:16
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javispedroMohammadAG: btw, I've been experimenting with Qmafw already,
javispedrosadly on Harm seems that closing the media player "kills" the current playlist02:30
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, did you twit that?02:53
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javispedroin fact @Meta_Watch got it02:58
MohammadAGjavispedro, well, harmattan has no support for playlists so02:59
MohammadAGyou might as well duplicate the playlist02:59
javispedrobut I hoped I could just call "play" on the current one03:00
MohammadAGyeah, like maemo 503:00
javispedroso if I want to play when media-suite is closed I'd need to show ui to select which album, etc.03:00
MohammadAGbetter way03:01
MohammadAGduplicate playlist used by music-suite03:01
MohammadAGwhen it's closed, keep the duplicate03:01
javispedrooh good idea.03:01
MohammadAGbut rename it to whatever the now playing one's called03:01
MohammadAGwhen music-suite is opened again, reduplicate03:01
MohammadAGthere's a playlist updated signal so you can sync the duplicate with the current one03:01
MohammadAGextra effort, but does the job03:02
javispedrobtw, I've had to reimplement the .cache/media-art "rules" because mafw would sometimes send me the art sometimes wouldn't03:02
MohammadAGthis is something that annoyed me in OMP03:02
MohammadAGsometimes MafwSource sends the album art, not MafwRenderer03:02
MohammadAGso if you don't get album art from the renderer, you'll need to request metadata from MafwSource for the current objectId03:03
javispedroseems that just getting it from .media-art is simple =)03:03
MohammadAGwhere does mafw store playlists now?03:03
MohammadAGit was ~/.mafw-playlists on m503:03
javispedrono idea03:03
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MohammadAGjavispedro, does mafw still use its playlist implementation?03:06
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MohammadAGto me it seems playlists are handled in the app now03:06
javispedrowell, there's still the concept of a playlist, and I do know which is the current position on it03:07
MohammadAGis it still using MafwPlaylist and MafwPlaylistManager?03:07
javispedromanager aiui has been replaced by mafwshared03:08
MohammadAGMafwShared was always there03:08
javispedromafwshared and mafwregistry03:12
MohammadAGyep, been there since M503:13
MohammadAGthat's how you get instances of the renderer etc03:13
javispedrowell, it also does playlists now03:14
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* javispedro misses a way to increase brightness or other visual transforms in QML ;P03:21
specialjavispedro: the cool way is to use the GL shader items03:28
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MohammadAGjavispedro, any ideas about how "Favorites" are stored?03:32
javispedroalso, felipec knows03:32
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MohammadAGjavispedro, so is there a way to get a listing in terminal?03:37
MohammadAGtracker-search I guess, not sure what to pass to it though03:37
MohammadAGmorning Termana03:38
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javispedroMohammadAG: $ tracker-sparql -q "SELECT ?url WHERE { ?song nao:hasTag nao:predefined-tag-f03:42
javispedroavorite . ?song nie:url ?url}"03:42
* javispedro is starting to become proefficient in this sparql thing...03:42
javispedrowell, just "basic" still.03:43
MohammadAGthanks javispedro :D03:45
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djszapianybody having usb network to the Harmattan device ?03:57
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djszapidone on the phone: route add default gw | done on the PC: iptables -A POSTROUTING -t nat -s -j MASQUERADE && echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward04:00
djszapi/etc/hosts contains, no proxy, "echo 'deb ./' >>/etc/apt/sources.list.d/nicks.list" executed, but when it tries to fetch this repository, it cannot get it ...04:00
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MohammadAGdjszapi, I just used the N900 instructions04:07
djszapiyeah, me too.04:08
MohammadAGthe Ubuntu 10.10 ones04:08
MohammadAG djszapi04:09
djszapiyes, that is the same page I found by using google for N900 + usb networking.04:13
djszapiI am not sure what is wrong about this environment04:13
SpeedEvildjszapi: Does the kernel support masq and nat04:16
djszapiwell, I even have R&D certificate :)04:17
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lardmanhmm, perhaps now wasn't the best time to update the SDK...04:42
* lardman twiddles thumbs04:42
lardmanat least it might make me fall asleep again hey04:42
berndhssleep is important to make sound decisions04:45
lardmanthis is true04:45
berndhsI think most apps should have a "quit" option, would be cleaner04:52
GeneralAntillesI really wish it were swipe up to quit instead of swipe down04:57
GeneralAntilleseasier and makes much more sense04:57
GeneralAntillesCan we hack that?04:57
lardmanoh does swype direction matter now then?04:58
berndhsmaybe quit should be the mark of Zorro04:58
GeneralAntillesMake a cool animation, too.05:01
lardmanimagine needing to pull out a sword on the train though to close an app05:01
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GeneralAntilles(Rays win!)05:06
* lardman wonders why Photoanalyser takes so long to detect barcodes in photos05:16
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SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Isn't tehre a swypetools - to change stuff?05:20
SpeedEvilin ovi05:20
GeneralAntillesI guess so.05:22
lardmanah nice, found what looks like an up-to-date C++ port of ZXing05:22
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* lardman hits the sack again, night all05:37
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GAN900OK, wtf does Installation unusable mean.06:22
GAN900Is this some Aegis idiocy?06:22
GAN900FBReader (dpkg -i'ed) has a red exclamation point icon06:22
GAN900Wont open: "Installation unusable"06:22
GAN900Runs fine from xterm06:23
SpeedEvilWhat version are you on?06:26
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SpeedEvilwhere is the fbreader dpkg again?06:39
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fralsi wonder if we can stop calling it meego 1.2 harmattan now and just go with maemo6? ;D08:15
djszapiCan we have an access to the build logs on the community OBS ?08:19
sandst1djszapi: make a pull request on github, i'll merge it in then08:22
djszapisandst1: cannot you just make this few characters change directly, please ?08:23
djszapi -> installPrefix = /usr/local -> installPrefix = /usr08:24
sandst1oook. sure08:24
frals<GeneralAntilles> I really wish it were swipe up to quit instead of swipe down <- swipemanager in the store08:24
djszapisandst1: and then I can upload a working harmattan package. Not sure why it did not recognize my program08:25
sandst1djszapi: just thought that in case you've made a github fork it'd be one press of a button :)08:25
djszapiI do not like the github/gitorious workflow08:25
djszapitoo much kernel and arch linux development -> got used to git-send email :)08:26
hiemanshulol arch08:27
djszapisandst1: can you please tell me when you pushed it ?08:33
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sandst1djszapi: pushed09:18
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djszapisandst1: thanks, do you have an idea for the non-appearing program ?09:23
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sandst1djszapi: do you get any program info shown..?09:24
djszapisandst1: nup09:25
djszapiI see the part of the program xml on the console while running it, though.09:25
sandst1djszapi: ookay09:25
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sandst1djszapi: check for stuff between xmlparser:parse & xmlparser:parse exit09:26
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sandst1djszapi: and insert more logs there to see if the parsing is going correctly.09:27
djszapisandst1: is it a big work to rewrite it with components ? If it is not that big, I could aid it..09:28
sandst1djszapi: well you have to rewrite the whole UI :P and since it was my first qml project, the code miiight not be that sane09:29
djszapireally, the whole Ui ?09:30
djszapisomeone told that here previously, it is simple to port a plain QML application to components. It is indeed not that good then.09:30
sandst1djszapi: ook. maybe not the whole ui but parts of it09:30
sandst1djszapi: i don't really know the answer how much work it needs. one should start to port it and see how much it takes09:31
djszapithat is the way of gettink stuck into a project :p09:31
sandst1djzapi: yesindeed :P09:31
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sandst1djszapi: the biggest difference to the app with componens would be that i had to implement a screen switcher of my own.09:33
djszapisandst1: actually, it did not even load the meego summit program after the installation.09:34
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djszapiso my program did not make any difference.09:34
sandst1djszapi: aa09:34
mzanettiis there a SD card slot on the N950?09:36
mzanettianyone knows what it under the back cover? only the battery?09:38
hiemanshuyup only the battery09:41
mzanettidjszapi: hiemanshu: ok. thanks09:42
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mecewant open harmattan10:23
ajalkanem3 t0010:25
ajalkaneI'd buy a T-shirt in the spirit of Free Mandela, that said Free Harmattan. With a sad looking meegon behind bars.10:26
mecehahah nice one10:35
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djszapiMohammadAG: is your scroll question still ongoing or already got fixed ?10:39
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djszapiin which part of its work you're interested? basically it just calls list->scrollTo(GroupHeaderIndex.10:40
StecchinoI'm getting dropped calls, with the network becoming unavailable after ~15 minutes with beta2. Known problem?10:43
ajalkaneI haven't talked for 15 minutes in phone.10:44
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djszapiI had a long conference call with a slightly older image than the public, at least.10:47
Stecchinowell, it might be shorter 5-8 minutes, the call log has the wrong time10:49
Stecchinoonly mentions a bit over a minute10:49
Stecchinoor it might say 1 hour and a few minutes, can't tell10:49
ajalkaneIf I can trust my call log, I talked last week for 9 minutes on phone. Seemed like an eternity.10:49
meceStecchino, it's dev hardware issues10:50
meceStecchino, from what I hear it's not a problem on N910:50
Stecchinomece: are you sure? It might be my network, they recently switched from a VDMO to their own call-server10:50
meceStecchino, you are using N950?10:51
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Stecchinomece: yes10:52
meceStecchino, Sorry I missed what the problem actually was. I have no idea about that. Does sound like a software problem, but who knows.10:54
Stecchinomece: just filed a bug on
meceman I can't wait to get an N9! Then I could stop worrying about breaking stuff and having to reflash my N950.10:56
mecedjszapi, have you got final firmware on your N9 now btw?10:56
djszapimece: no care about production image, just R&D10:56
mecedjszapi, ok.10:57
djszapisince I develop the platform, I need R&D.10:57
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* artemma have just read about Tizen. It's a pity they decided to focus on HTML5 and not on Qt/QML, but I can understand it. Not bad news after all12:21
djszapiwhy can you understand it ?12:22
artemmaQt is controlled by Nokia that proved to be an unreliable partner and humiliated Intel personally12:22
Anssi138is there qt support as first class citizen or not in Tizen?12:23
djszapiartemma: Nokia did the most for Qt and maemo.12:23
djszapiwell apart from Trolltech for sure.12:23
artemmadjszapi: doesn't matter as long as Nokia is known for rapidly changing the course in the middle of everything and letting partners down12:24
djszapiand Qt is actually Open Governance, not "owned" by Nokia.12:24
artemmaAnssi138: I believe it's to early to be certain about anything. They state that primary app framework is to be HTML5. I would expect people to be able to create backend/extensions/engines/plugins in Qt with front-end in HTML512:25
artemmadjszapi: if selop decides to cut Qt financing of Qt tomorrow, no open governance will heal the wound in any reasonable time12:26
artemmanot going to happen with HTML512:26
artemmaand then again, Nokia pissed off Intel personally12:26
djszapiartemma: frankly, you should just read what Thiago wrote more times.12:26
artemmaI guess I shouldn't dive into details I don't know well12:27
* gri will NEVER do any html, no matter if 3,4 or 512:27
artemmalet's say that be I in Intel's/Sansung's place with amount of knowledge I have, I'd try to stay further from anything Nokia-related12:27
djszapiartemma: Intel is much worse than Nokia12:28
djszapiNokia shipped things, improved things. Intel did nothing.12:28
djszapiI know, we worked with them on MeeGo.12:28
emanartemma: It's probably more about app ecosystem. html has more of a chance of longevity.12:28
artemma"by I in *intel'* place,..." :)12:28
Anssi138artemma, ok. so i gathered also from tizen channel. but seems to be very hazy area altogether12:28
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artemmadjszapi: Mobile came from somewhere hasn't it?12:29
* Arkenoi got impression is once it gots into some kind of working shape, someone thinks it is a good idea to breed it with some half-dead cadaver and do-nothing multi-B$ consortiums that will just abandon the product a few months later without making any significant investment12:29
djszapiartemma: All what Intel did in the security area  for instance is to copy / paste our work and put Intel title on it.12:29
djszapiartemma: from thiago words: ""All the features" are defined by the Qt release, which is done by the Qt12:29
djszapinot mentioning any Nokia.12:29
djszapiI am now seeking thiago's post where he actually said please forget this Nokia Qt tiedness12:30
artemmadjszapi: I always had an impression that community is people and somehow it happens that most of Qt community people work for Nokia. Theory of open source is totally great until you come to the point who actually pays for the features12:30
Arkenoiah, and losing next two years trying to mix those things together is mandatory as well12:30
djszapiartemma: you have zero understanding about Open Governance if you say that12:31
artemmaGuys, tizen project news are good to me since it is continuation of meego. I can understand the html5 move though not super happy about it, it's a pity that Qt/QML didn't make it to main priorities12:31
djszapi(not offense)12:31
artemmathese are my points12:31
artemmaeverything else is lyrics12:31
* RST38h yawns widely, heads for the hills12:32
artemmadjszapi: whoever governs, somebody needs to do work12:32
RST38hartemma: Actually, no, nobody needs ot do work12:32
artemmaand most of work is nowadays done by people paid by nokia12:32
artemmaRST38h: sure, unless you want to ship something :)12:32
djszapiartemma: that is why we can proud of Nokia.12:32
RST38hartemma: no, you do not12:32
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djszapiexactly, thanks for confirming.12:32
RST38hartemma: Limo or LF surely do not want to ship anything12:32
artemmaI am looking more at Samsung and Intel regarding shipping12:33
artemmaok, that is a theoretical dispute in the area I don't know much anyway and unlikely to learn anything from chat12:33
RST38hartemma: Intel does not produce or ship consumer electronics, it does CPUs12:34
artemmaI am still happy MeeGo continues12:34
RST38hartemma: Samsung is very well off with or without Linux12:34
djszapiartemma: "PS: stop talking about "Nokia planning". The only thing that matters is the Qt12:34
grithe same applies for me. I don't care if the system is meego or tizen as long as I can use Qt on my phone :) If that's not available, I will switch to another one ...12:37
djszapi+1 with KDE addition, but yeah.12:38
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ajalkaneExciting times. Morbidly depressing but exciting times.12:42
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SpeedEvilOn open phones: - Created On:23-Jun-2011 11:35:06 UTC - it is really 3 months old12:47
javispedrodjszapi, was even older ;P12:51
djszapiwell, that is a different thing. The fact is that Intel started it 3 months ago, but they cannot publicly say that.12:52
griwhy don't they just create a company for meego and pump millions in it that there's no way back? :D12:53
djszapiso actually the meego security we were doing in Nokia (smack) was actually already formed for tizen.12:53
RST38hGood place to have that security thing, yes12:53
Arkenoiah, you mean that "trusted" computing where owner of the device is *not* trusted entity?12:54
djszapifunny there are still people with this trolling12:54
javispedroIntel will never use smack or aegis12:55
javispedrothey are now joining the Android club in that they're not exposing a sane glibc API12:55
javispedroso they will do ala Android12:55
djszapiok, sure, heard from intel security guys working in the tizen, but sure, you know better...12:55
javispedroand just cripple the API as conveniently12:55
djszapithan the internals.12:55
djszapithis is so typical for the Harmattan community.12:56
djszapiThey know everything better than even internals.12:56
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javispedrowhy develop a security API you're not going to use, as you're not going to expose the native API?12:57
djszapiIntel /will/ use smack, internal decisions were made, please stop it12:58
djszapiI do think that is why so many internal employees from different companies do not touch this community12:58
emanSmack is great IMO12:58
djszapinot even any reaction. This is exactly the reason of them in my opinion to avoid all the unneccesary unpleasure.12:59
emanLack of kernel enforced privacy in maemo is scary12:59
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djszapiHarmattan externals wanted to know better the ongoing things than Nokia internals previously. This time, they wanna know better than Intel internals. Well, I must congratulate.13:00
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djszapino wonder why internals do not care about the community after these situations.13:03
javispedrodjszapi, so, you want to fix the situation by accurately detailing the internals, or, will you continue on fosting the random guessing by providing random statements that have been said to you by "internal employees" for no reason?13:04
javispedroand with no backing?13:04
djszapiyeah sure, my friends at Intel are "random people", sure.13:05
djszapisorry, I do not need your arrogance, ignore.13:05
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* RST38h cackles 13:05
* ajalkane takes baby to lap and asks it to watch quietly13:06
dm8tbrdjszapi: this is the final warning, you are talking about 'internal decisions'. The topic clearly states that this is NOT welcome here. I shall remove you if you continue.13:07
djszapidm8tbr: the smack discussion is completely public13:07
djszapiit is upstream, please stop this bullshit.13:07
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*** dm8tbr sets mode: +q djszapi!*@*13:07
RST38hdm8tbr: thanks.13:08
dm8tbrfor language and being again off topic and abusive13:08
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javispedrohey, look at the positive side, now you have one less reason to care about providing .rpm packaging...13:34
* javispedro sighs :(13:34
Venemojavispedro :(13:34
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alteregoI was thinking more about where were be going to be doing our meetups now :/13:51
javispedroand there's a lot of infrastructure changes to do I bet..13:52
Venemowho cares anymore?13:52
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javispedroalso, if I were Nokia, after what's been released in the Intel press release I'd be quite quick to remove _all_ references to Meego from the product they released yesterday.13:52
Venemowell, consider this as a "fightback" from Intel... after what Nokia did to them.13:53
javispedroso are we splitting again?13:53
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javispedrothat would be so fun, I'd die for it to happen and be able to troll on both boards =)13:54
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hiemanshualterego: you can use my house in India, I have enough place for 100-ish people :P13:56
alteregoI think that might be _too_ big :D13:56
alteregoThe way things are going.13:56
hiemanshuwell, then you wouldn't even need hotels :P13:57
alteregoI'm going to miss the Maemo/MeeGo meetups13:57
alteregoThey were fun13:57
javispedroso it was true13:57
javispedrothe one meego conference I missed was to be the last13:57
alteregoActually, yeah13:58
alteregoI very much doubt they'll hold the one they promised next year13:58
alteregoActually there were two, dublin and san fran13:58
* javispedro is completely tired about the big reveal mentality13:59
alteregoMaybe that's the problem, maybe they don't want "Community" they just want "Ecosystem" :/13:59
javispedroI'm gonna completely and totally pass on tizan nietsche or whatever is called13:59
javispedroenjoy harmattan while it lasts13:59
javispedrothen go die in a fire or get an iphone.13:59
alteregoI'm going to just wait and see how this stuff pans out, the N900, N9 and N950 have a fair amount of life left in them from my perspective14:00
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alteregoEven without MeeGo we'll continiue working on CE14:00
alteregoSo meh :)14:00
SpeedEviln950 has no life at all.14:00
javispedroI've read the meeting14:00
SpeedEvilIt's a complete and utter dead-end.14:00
SpeedEvilBut yes.14:00
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sivangre all14:01
javispedroalterego, still, if nokia pulls the plug, meegoCE is no longer the favoured alternative :P14:01
alteregoI beg to differ, the N950 has plenty of life from where I'm sitting.14:01
javispedroeven SHR would have a similar manpower level14:02
alteregojavispedro: there is no alternative.14:02
hiemanshualterego: try changing to the window seat and look at the fall outside14:02
alteregoHow would Nokia pull the plug on CE?14:02
javispedroalterego, even more than they already have? ;P14:02
SpeedEvilalterego: It can't have life, when you can't buy one, there are 300 in the 'wild', and if yours dies, you're not getting another.14:02
macmaNsomehow the hardware grip of these companies needs to be lifted14:02
SpeedEvilA platform of 300 devs isn't going to work14:03
alteregoEven if they stopped allowing maintanance on the closed blobs, we have a lot to work with ..14:03
javispedroalterego, I fully understand, I'm just talking that without manpower infusions from Nokia, MeegoCE is converted into "yet another alternative"14:03
grimacmaN: Read the "Cordia Tab" news? No manufacturer will ever produce hardware (phone or tablet) and release all drivers ...14:03
alteregoWe have a whole base OS that to all intents and purposes is fully functional.14:03
hiemanshu300? pretty sure half of them dont care/know about the stuff deep inside14:03
alteregojavispedro: yes, but it is still the best alternative ;)14:04
javispedroso far14:04
sivangalterego: ++ for plenty of life14:04
macmaNgri: yes i have. hence the "somehow"14:04
alteregoYes, so it is the one that should continue to be nurtured and worked on.14:04
macmaNgri: it's a damn shame14:04
alteregoAnd it'd be a POS to have HTML5/WAC stuff so we can use Tizan apps ..14:04
alteregoIf we wanted ..14:05
javispedrowhat tizan apps14:05
javispedroso tell me.14:05
alteregojavispedro: I imagine there will be some eventually ;)14:05
javispedrowhat Meego app has ever come from Intel?14:05
javispedroexcept for the tablet UX?14:05
alteregodialer, sms, in fact most stock meego handset apps :P14:05
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sivangalterego: ah,that's intel's?14:06
grialterego: But some of them were written like by an trainee14:06
alteregogri: which ones?14:06
grialterego: Don't remember, would have to seek again14:06
fralsdid the calendar go anywhere ever?14:06
alteregogri: bit of a nasty comment to make without any kind of "proof" ..14:06
fralsbecause the one in gitorious was horrible14:07
grialterego: I can't provide proof in a matter of seconds :)14:07
javispedroalterego, so no apps =)14:08
alteregojavispedro: :P14:08
alteregojavispedro: more than Nokia it would seem :P14:08
javispedroI mean, unless you are thinking of replacing the UX with WAC entirely14:08
alteregoErm, no14:08
alteregoI'd prefer QML personally, with HTML5 as an ability to load apps off of the internet.14:08
alteregoIf everyone used HTML5/JS to build simple neat mobile clients for web services, I'd be happy.14:09
alteregoI can't see HTML5 being used for much more complicated stuff, because HTML/JS isn't really a nice environment to code "proper" apps in.14:10
sivangalterego: but the dialer does not work...14:10
alteregoWe still need something more, Palm new it with WebOS, Nokia have done something with QML, Silverlight. Etc, etc.14:10
alteregosivang: works for me :P14:10
javispedrobut there has been little application activity in the intelmeego front (appup, etc.), and thus, I have little reason to believe there will be more activity in tizan14:10
sivangalterego: almost nothing on handset work for me :)14:10
alteregosivang: you're using the wrong images then :P14:11
sivangalterego: perhaps :)14:11
alteregojavispedro: I wouldn't know without looking at the commit logs, but I'd heard there was still a fair amount of activity.14:11
* javispedro is happy with the dialer14:11
sivanganyway, WP7 does not seem bad anymore14:11
alteregojavispedro: thanks ;)14:11
* sivang should update images.14:11
javispedroalterego, I'm still on 1.2 on my N900 though, no idea if it contained your work already ;P14:11
frals"Steelrat is a 100% Tizen compliant operating system designed to allow manufacturers to rapidly develop high-performance Tizen-based devices. "14:11
alteregoI admit, it seems I am probably now the sole maintainer of the dialer :/14:11
alteregojavispedro: yes, if it was the SF or after release it was my qML UX work14:12
alteregoFixed a nice bunch of bugs this week actually, things are still looking quite positive for the dialer.14:12
sivangI also always had issues with doing calls and using the social apps on the tablet as well14:13
sivangit was not even bare for demoing14:13
alteregoWithout the restraints from Intel I'm a bit more free to work on it without the fear of being trodden on again.14:13
alteregosivang: I guess those that demo'd it would disagree too :P14:13
alteregoI have to admit though, the tablet UX seems to have been a complete waste of time now ..14:14
sivangalterego: I download a tablet ux image 3 weeks ago14:14
alteregoas has meego ux components ...14:14
alteregosivang: I have no idea about the state of tablet  builds. I'm not interested in them :P14:14
sivangalterego: *nothing* works. browsing is barely bareable, IM does not work14:14
alteregosivang: doesn't suprise me :P14:14
sivangalterego: I had some interest, seeing it does not go anywhere - I stopped14:15
alteregoEspecially if you're using the 1.3 branch14:15
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sivangmeego feels like a complete waste of time now and efforts that for me, as coming from the Nokia side of community cold ave gong into app development for Maemo/ Harmattan instead :)14:16
alteregoOut of curiosity, what have your efforts been wrt MeeGo?14:16
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sivangalterego: google :)14:18
javispedrosivang, as has been said, it's at least been the cause for the release of a set of free and working open source handset UI14:18
sivangjavispedro: right, at lesat that :)14:18
javispedrotherefore saying time would have been better inverted into (probably closed) app development for Harmattan....14:19
alteregoAnd up-to-date redistributable hardware drivers for the N900, N950 and N9 ..14:19
javispedro... I just cannot agree.14:19
javispedroer... damn you alterego for posting inbetween! ;P14:19
sivangjavispedro: I guess you are right, thanks for the cheer up :)14:19
alteregojavispedro: I think we understood what you meant to say, and not what it looked like you said because of me :P14:21
sivangjavispedro: but again, imagine those parts were not opened, but we now had a linux harmattan platform already in market, where the community is free to develop apps, the ecosystem would have been much more established by now14:21
sivangjavispedro: so depending where you look from (open source people even they have to eat)14:21
sivangjavispedro: I go back to think it was at least not as good.14:22
javispedrosivang, and then it comes aegis and blocks you from doing anything to it. at least now you can get the phone parts working by switching to meegoCE.14:22
alteregoI had a similar discussion with Sts about this the otherday.14:22
alteregoIt was around the time everyone was bitching to qgil about aegis14:22
sivangjavispedro: What app are you develiping to you want to circumvent aegis?14:22
alteregoDifferent perspectives view these platforms differently, I'm kinda happy to work around Aegis, but I've not done anything that's been busted up by it.14:23
alteregoI would like USB host or OTG, which may require some interesting breakages.14:23
* sivang reads14:23
alteregoYeah, it's all pretty annoying.14:25
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sivangguys, is it just me or are we never satisfied, and please remember I'm the one who stood up with timeless and gave the mega rant talk of the century in dublin.14:27
sivangIt seems like given other platforms, Nokia is going a damn long way for us - but we keep on ranting.14:27
sivangIs it just me?14:27
sivangthe N9 addresses a good deal of my talk, is towards mass app distribution, truly a user's device14:27
SpeedEvilI don't see how you can argue tat it's going a long way with a legacy platform that is announced to be dead before release.14:28
SpeedEvilAnd that isn't available in many countries at all.14:29
alteregoAnd with a low distribution channel selection14:29
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alteregoIf I want one in the UK I'm going to have to fork out a lot of money ..14:29
DocScrutinizerand with no other companies even considering it, and the home company has declared it won't see any follow up devices14:30
sivangbeing announced to be supported untul 2015 is anounced to be dead? don't take what anounced today for granted. I'm not.14:30
sivangwhat's truth today, changes tomorrow14:30
sivangsee meego/ tizen14:30
sivangI guess I'm easily satisfied and thank Nokia for even releasing the 950 developer kit withing the scope of strategy change.14:30
fralsalterego: anyone wanting a N9 is forking out a lot of money ;)14:31
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sivangfrals: isn't iPhone 4 expensive as well? or Samasung Galaxy S-II ?14:31
sivangI heard those are not cheap as well14:31
SpeedEvilAt the moment, the current stated position of nokia is that meego is a 'distruptive technology' - that will remain being worked on, with no new phones.14:31
sivangstill, people own them14:31
alteregoI'm kinda lucky I can claim vat back on it, which'll save me the best part of 100 quid14:31
fralssivang: yes, they are at the same price point14:32
sivangfrals: so where is the problem ?14:32
SpeedEvilsivang: In the UK, if I was to buy one, I have to import it, and then I have a very limited warranty.14:32
fralssivang: not saying there is, just commenting on alteregos comment...14:32
sivangfrals: oh thank you, I'm breaking my wrists here :)14:32
SpeedEvilThe cost of importing is quite high, as is the cost of no warranty.14:32
fralsexpansys is taking preorders, dont they?14:32
Venemothere is already a company in the UK which offers preorders for it14:32
Venemoforgot the name since I'm not in the UK14:32
fralsi would assume theyd handle the warranty stuff14:32
SpeedEvilVenemo: Ah - wasn't aware of that.14:32
sivangand gals14:33
sivangplease cheer up14:33
alteregosivang: it's more about carrier susidising through contracts.14:33
alteregoWhich wont be available. Which is how most people get their pretty smartphones.14:33
sivangit is not a grim as it may look.14:33
sivangalterego: I never got for their subsiding, it ties to hell out opf you to them.14:33
fralsbah, operator lock in... whats the point of a foss device when you are locked to a specific operator? ;-)14:33
sivangalterego: have no answert for tha14:33
sivangalterego: I would rather save a year for the device (given my contractig is not doing so well ;)) then be tied to an operator14:34
sivangand Israeli ones are REALLY tyerrbiel14:34
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass14:34
sivangDocScrutinizer: LOL14:34
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
alteregofrals, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about my target audience, I can't tout the N9 to my friends because none of them will want to fork out that much.14:34
alteregoUnless they're like me.14:34
fralsalterego: fair enough14:34
sivangalterego: but they are happy to lock down with an iPhone that breaks after one fall?14:35
fralsalterego: otoh, the N9 target audience don't mind forking out 599€ for a pink phone as far as ive understood the marketing message14:35
sivangI'm sure the price will go down.14:35
frals(see cph design week, sthlm fashion week)14:35
* sivang is optimistic14:35
DocScrutinizerI'd not want a smartphone that it in the leash of OVI store and will basically die the day OVI stops working for just this particular device, for one reason or another. While OVI could decide to kill off arbitrary apps from my particular single device on their arbitrary discretion (like appstore did with Spiegel-online, for showing tits on the cover)14:38
DocScrutinizers/it in/is on/14:38
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: I'd not want a smartphone that is on the leash of OVI store and will basically die the day OVI stops working for just this particular device, for one reason or another. While OVI could decide to kill off arbitrary apps from my particular single device on ...14:38
fralsso you are saying ovi can pull apps from your device?14:38
sivangDocScrutinizer: use OVI from the EU ;) tits on cover is okay in the EU :)14:39
rantomfrals: I think it's the same method with Google and Apple14:39
sivangDocScrutinizer: that argument holds for ANY app store14:39
rantomIf they dislike something they can yank it out14:39
sivangDocScrutinizer: so just use debian on your device :)14:39
fralsrantom: and im not sure this is implemented in harmattan ;)14:39
sivangrantom: any store can14:39
sivangrantom: their right14:39
fralsie the can remove it from store but not enduser device14:39
fralsbut im not sure14:39
rantomGoogle can yank it from the device14:40
sivangfrals: that would require an interestng infra support :)14:40
rantomApple, I think, can't14:40
fralssivang: plenty of ways to solve it14:40
sivangrantom: they are working on it , for sure :)14:40
rantomThere was some news about Google having the backdoor-access in last year, I think14:40
fralssome are very simple actually14:40
DocScrutinizersivang: that's exactly what I do, my debian is called maemo-fremantle14:40
sivangfrals: for my curiosity one example?14:40
RST38hJoin the Tizen Group to stay in touch with all the Info regarding this new awesome Plateform!14:40
sivangDocScrutinizer: :)14:40
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sivangRST38h: Righhhhhhhhhhhht..........14:40
fralssivang: easiest is daily check against a blacklist somewhere and compare with installed packages14:40
sivangthey won't fool me thesecond ime around14:41
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sivangfrals: okay, easy enough. anyway not the point14:41
sivangto complete in the crazy industry, ths is acceptable14:41
sivangfor the consumer linux devices, just like Android14:41
fralsthere are much more efficient ways as well if its paired with something like OMA DM14:41
sivangfrals: agreed, but not sure OVI are doing it? are they?14:42
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sivangfrals: not specifically for app control, but can be used to implement it yes?14:44
* sivang has to go to sleep14:44
sivangOVI will not do this I think, take apps off your phone. Does not feel like their style.14:45
sivanganywa people, be back later.14:45
sivangdon't despair.14:45
RST38hHere is a more serious question: Is normal, standard Qt still safe?14:47
RST38hCan we code in it?14:47
sivangRST38h: why not?14:48
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sivangjust read
sivangfor me, but maybe I'm terribly stupid. this list looks very much all edge cases and rare use cases.14:52
sivangotherwise app devel is what this platform is for.14:52
sivangand now, laters all.14:53
Elessaris there any chance to send notifications to status bar from QtQuick?14:53
Elessaror it's still possible only from mtf?14:53
sivangElessar: yes, there's a quick compoenent for that, but I don't remember off hand14:53
sivangbye all14:53
* sivang is a bit amazed at the noise created for the aegis "i can't do" list14:54
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SmithElessar: see QMLcomponents example14:59
ElessarSmith: I've seen only InfoBanner at it15:02
Elessarbut I'm talking about StatusBar (a line at top of the screen)15:02
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DocScrutinizersivang: if this is a platform to run mainstream apps and nothing else then I'm not interested in it, I can get this with S40, with iOS, with andridiot, why would I possibly pick a dead platform with just ~50 true apps (+50000 RSS feed "apps")?15:25
DocScrutinizersivang: mounting my server's storage to the phone, via NFS od sshfs, is not a "niche case" to me.15:25
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khertanDocScrutinizer: mounting nfs .... pffff ... it s so old school15:26
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khertanDocScrutinizer: use a dropbox like sync tool, it s what i use on my n950, n900, desktop pc, and my nas15:27
DocScrutinizermanaging my content on the phone via sftp:// and WLAN rather than fsckng USB ass rage mode is another valid demand to "my phone"15:27
khertanit s works via ssh15:27
khertanand no, sorry not yet publicly available, it s still in testing :)15:27
* khertan write his own tools :)15:27
emanDocScrutinizer: Sounds like the problem is just the lack of being able to enable an owner mode. The actual idea of having a secure sandbox for apps is not bad15:28
DocScrutinizerkhertan: you think I'm a person to upload my private stuff to some Do you think my avartar looks like I'm an idiot?15:28
spenapever heard of truecrypt?15:29
DocScrutinizereman: we are way beyond debating the benefits of sandboxing here - btw aegis doesn't sandbox15:29
DocScrutinizerspenap: ever heard of root servers15:29
DocScrutinizertoo bad15:30
spenapI'm sorry to disappoint you :P15:30
khertanDocScrutinizer: i didn't use dropbox, i use my own server :)15:30
emanspideroak looks like a secure alternative for those who don't want to roll their own15:31
khertaneman : khtsync too15:31
khertaneman: but not yet available yet15:31
khertani'm still testing it15:31
emanah, was just about to google it :)15:31
khertanthere is an old release15:31
DocScrutinizerplease rethink your contribution of "ever heard of truecrypt" when the topic is about usecases where aegis N9 policy comes throwing sticks at your feet, doing ssfs access to $RANDOM_REMOTE_ADD being one of them15:32
khertanbut i rewrite everythings15:32
khertanas the concept was broken15:32
emank, I'll be keen to see it when it's ready15:32
khertanit s works via ssh :)15:32
emanI've been meaning to setup a spideroak account as I don't have time to muck around (even though I have my own colo box)15:33
khertanno need to reinvent the wheel with a new protocol15:33
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DocScrutinizerhonestly the next one to deny a valid usecase proposal getting blocked by the MSSF policy,  by suggesting it's either not modern anymore, or outright useless (to everybody, as that particular person don't want to use it), or suggests a completely inadequate "workaround" (ala: why sync to your desktop PC contacts? you could use Google) - I'll consider kicking that person!15:36
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* javispedro has been brainwashed already16:04
javispedrolove the tentacle^W the tizen!16:04
javispedroso, I've been thinking, I've said a few times that I actually favour HTML over QML16:06
javispedrothen, why the hell I was worried?16:06
* javispedro will wait and see16:06
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hiemanshujavispedro: hah16:20
Anssi138why have a proper application when we can have web page.16:22
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npmi favor being able to do both, and use qtwebkit inside my qt apps (e.g. )16:34
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snowpongjavispedro: you'll be able to make fine ui inside html, but I suspect not as elegant as with qml - the real problem is however bindings to the platform (the boring non-ui stuff) - thats the real problem to solve for html apps16:44
javispedroI agree16:44
javispedrotizen's answer is already known, WAC.16:44
javispedro(well, I disagree with the elegant part, but agree with the real problem part)16:44
snowpongjavispedro: giant committee of operators trying to agree on APIs? somehow I don't see it happening ;)16:45
javispedrothey have already decided16:45
javispedrothey mentioned WAC 2.016:45
* snowpong looks for reference docs16:46
mjawacapps..? does it not sound like f*ckups a little16:52
DocScrutinizerand indeed it probably just is16:55
snowpongjavispedro: doesn't look to bad, they seem to have the basics at least16:55
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snowpongjavispedro: know any platforms that actually support it?16:55
javispedrothey seemingly have implement that on top of andridiot16:55
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GeneralAntillesHey. Look.17:13
GeneralAntillesMy Metawatch shipped. . . .17:13
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infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
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SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Does it run tizen?17:34
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khertanSpeedEvil: it couldn't, the main goal of tizen is to be unavailable on any device17:38
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khertanit s me, or does mozilla didn't provide anymore mobile version of firefox (aka fennec) for harmattan18:18
khertanit s not anymore listed on mozilla.org18:18
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DocScrutinizer( [2011-09-28 12:59:38] <javispedro> enjoy harmattan while it lasts) come back to maemo, you're welcome :-D (we're all still there waiting for you)18:59
spenapDocScrutinizer, didn't read your reply to my comment: I wasn't talking seriously19:04
spenapof course we should be able to use sshfs or whatever with the devices we're supposed to own19:04
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DocScrutinizerspenap: exactly, as this is advertised "FOSS linux debin based", not "we abused and hijacked FOSS to build a locked up ecosystem on top of it (read the fineprint [yet to come] to learn what you may expect from this)"19:13
spenapyes, but honestly, do you expect things to change at this point?19:13
spenapI'm not saying "it's ok"19:14
spenapI'm not even saying "let's not try"19:14
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spenapjust assume what we got19:14
DocScrutinizerI'm pretty sure Nokia won't move significantly for HARM security policy19:14
wazddjszapiN9: ping? :P19:14
wazdhi all19:14
DocScrutinizerhi wazd19:15
DocScrutinizersomebody said it before: they aren't interested in community, they just care about their ecosystem19:15
Stskeepswazd: good news, Mer is relevant again ;)19:17
spenapstill, even with the limitations, I prefer harmattan over android or ios19:17
wazdStskeeps: awesome! :)19:17
DocScrutinizerthey miss the fact that any ecosystem initially builds around either a) a huge number of commercial sw-houses trying to make money on selling apps, or b) the community19:17
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DocScrutinizerStskeeps: so what's the foundation mantra of mer?19:20
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DocScrutinizeris it like "community driven anti vendor port, mimicking the former meegoCE"?19:21
TSCHAKeeeStskeeps: did they give you any advance warning that this was happening?19:21
TSCHAKeeethey being, those douchebags at the LF?19:21
pabs3re Mer,
StskeepsTSCHAKeee: no, and i am generally positive for various reasons19:21
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: thou shalt not break shit19:22
TSCHAKeeeStskeeps: various reasons?19:22
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StskeepsTSCHAKeee: lot less compliance hassle19:22
TSCHAKeeecompliance really was a dead thud, heh.19:23
crevetor"Tizen devices will ship in first half 2012 #AppUpElements" Say what now ?!19:23
DocScrutinizersame as always? LOL19:23
StskeepsTSCHAKeee: i see it as a component candybox19:23
crevetorHave they already secretly been working on it or is it just a rebrand of meego ??19:23
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TSCHAKeeecrevetor: more bullshit posturing19:24
berndhsi'm sure samsung can have something they can make shippable by then can call "tizen"19:24
TSCHAKeeecrevetor: basically, tizen is the meego core, with a web browser slapped on top19:24
TSCHAKeeeand yes, i say web browser in the loosest sense of the word19:24
TSCHAKeeemakes me sick19:24
TSCHAKeee"Excuse me, why does it take 5 minutes to dial a phone number?"19:25
DocScrutinizerhaha right19:25
TSCHAKeee"The web runtime is still parsing the HTML"19:25
TSCHAKeee"OH yeah, and there's javascript in there making all the zoomyzoomyblurryblurry"19:25
DocScrutinizergood argument to get 3GHz multicore into phones ;-P19:26
TSCHAKeeewe truly are in a stupid cycle in the tech industry19:26
TSCHAKeeeproblem is19:26
berndhsgood argument to advance battery technology too19:26
TSCHAKeeethis stupid cycle has been going on for almost 15 years now19:26
pabs3DocScrutinizer: laptops first pls19:26
TSCHAKeeeand what epitomizes it so much19:27
TSCHAKeeeis that ANY TIME _ANYONE_ needs some form of data storage, or to represent any form of data19:27
TSCHAKeeewhat's the go to?19:27
* SpeedEvil knows of a 400GB XML database.19:27
TSCHAKeeeDoes it need to be read by humans?19:28
SpeedEvil(admittedly, this is just the transportable form)19:28
TSCHAKeeeSo why are you using XML?19:28
DocScrutinizerwell, D. Adams suggested how to deal with that: tell them the giant intergalactic goose will eat the earth and we send them all to glise835 to desinfect the phoneboothes so we can follow eventually19:28
TSCHAKeeebecause....i don't know how to deal with .... writing my own file format....19:28
TSCHAKeeeor, today, I booted up a J2EE app, in JBOSS 6, and Shiro19:29
TSCHAKeeeONE .ear19:29
TSCHAKeeeroot      7735  2.9 60.2 1954100 621888 pts/3  Sl   Sep27  28:55 /usr/java/latest/bin/java -server -Xms512m -X19:29
TSCHAKeeei wanna cry.19:29
apol_Qt.ImhPreferNumbers is not being obeyed in a TextField, can it be fixed somehow?19:30
SpeedEvilNot 400G, only around 30019:30
TSCHAKeeebut at least that's intended to be human consumable19:31
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, clearly porting Tizen should be my first project.19:35
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GeneralAntilles(Any repair suggestions for a small 2-stroke engine which stalls after a short period at any throttle position over about 50%)19:38
GeneralAntilles(Seems to be fuel consumption rate related)19:38
berndhsGeneralAntilles: clean the carb and sparks19:41
berndhsGeneralAntilles: replace the fuel filter19:41
* spenap checks the channel name :P19:41
berndhsoh yeah, take pictures of the results with your N919:42
GeneralAntillesberndhs, kinda what I figured but I don't want to. I want somebody on the internet to give me an /easy/ solution. *g*19:42
GeneralAntillesspenap, WE'RE BUILDING COMMUNITY19:42
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: have you seen the sams repair faq site?19:42
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, no19:43
SpeedEvilsmall engines and rotary lawn mowers19:43
berndhsactually fuel filter is not an unlikely cause, after some time the crap in there has shaken up and blocks the flow19:44
SpeedEvilplausible, yes19:44
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DocScrutinizerthere's also a filter in the tank19:45
SpeedEvilfuel tank breather too19:47
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djszapiN9wazd pong19:49
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Daremonaihello, my content failed ovi's publish qa saying that the application won't launch from the launcher. I'm not exactly sure how to fix it. I have the following .desktop file: - can anyone point me in the right direction?20:13
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fralsDaremonai: so err, your apps name is actually "appname"? :P20:31
Daremonaifrals: no, hehe, it's the app's name :)20:32
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Daremonaifrals: you have any idea what the problem might be?20:45
fralsno clue.. i assume the binary runs fine from terminal20:46
fralscomparing your .desktop to the others installed could be a thing to do20:46
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Daremonaifrals: yes they do, sorry for the late reply21:37
Daremonaiit does*21:38
Daremonaiit looks very similar to the motoracer project... i really can't tell why it won't launch21:45
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Daremonaiblekh, it does work.. i donno what's up with the ovi store/nokia QA team rejecting my app...22:14
TSCHAKeeenot like the QA team is flooded with app requests...22:15
TSCHAKeee"oh! Look *random-Finnish-name*! .. It's another app for the N9!"22:16
TSCHAKeee"Wow, I never thought i'd see another one of these!"22:16
Daremonaistill uncool to have your app rejected while it works perfectly fine22:17
SpeedEvilDaremonai: Odd. On what grounds?22:17
DaremonaiSpeedEvil, they said that the app isn't launching from the launcher, but it is.22:17
DaremonaiSpeedEvil, I've tried it several times, also it runs correctly from the terminal and the .desktop file tells it to run the same path22:18
RST38hMy experience shows that you need someone at Nokia to personally nudge the qa people,or your app never passes22:18
DaremonaiRST38h, meh! I'm not that well connected...22:18
Daremonaii sent an email to publishtoovi... just now, and resubmitted the same .deb package22:20
DaremonaiI hope they test it correctly/fairly now22:20
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lardmananyone ever used ZXing?22:37
lardmanI've got the C++ compiled and in a library and just wondering about the api and code structure when scanning for different barcode types if anyone has any experience of using it in Java22:39
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MohammadAGgood aftertizen everyone23:05
rantomMohammadAG: \o23:05
faenilyueah... :(23:05
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Khertan_webchatlol MohammadAG23:11
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lardmanhey MohammadAG23:24
MohammadAGheya lardman Khertan_webchat rantom23:31
Khertan_webchatit s now official ... they have kill open source os on mobile23:32
MohammadAGI'm thinking of buying a Xoom23:32
MohammadAGTizen means two asses in arabic, just saying23:34
MohammadAGmore like tee, but the i can sound like that23:34
lardmanre Xoom - Android, hmm23:34
MohammadAGlooking at the competition:23:35
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lardmanHP Touchpad perhaps?23:35
MohammadAGiPad - iOS23:35
MohammadAGTouchPad - chances of finding a living dinosaur are better than those of finding one23:36
lardmanWho have Meego just announced a merger with, the group that includes Samsung iirc23:36
lardmanMohammadAG: yeah23:36
* lardman is watching dinosaurs on tv atm too :)23:37
MohammadAGand believe me, finding a dinosaur is hard23:37
MohammadAGlardman, I know you are, muhahaha23:37
lardmandamn this laptop webcam!23:37
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* lardman is waving at MohammadAG 23:38
* MohammadAG waves back23:38
lardmanI'm still not keen on the whole 10" table thing - great for using, but I won't bother to take it anywhere with me23:44
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Khertan_webchatMohammadAG: lol i was looking at competition too23:46
Khertan_webchatkindle fire is cheap23:46
Khertan_webchatdepends on what you need23:47
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lardmanwhat's the name for the type of sw that you use to store details of your books, cds, dvds, etc.?23:54
* lardman looks to see what could run on his Tab under Ubuntu23:54
Khertan_webchatlardman: Nautilus23:56
lardmannah, there are pieces of software that allow you to catalogue your book, CD, DVD collection, etc.23:58

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