IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2011-09-27

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sivang	DocScrutinizer: not just your pc :)	00:08
DocScrutinizer	yeah, also my mind	00:08
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spenap	hey, what could be the best way to notify users of the rzr's repository that the Ovi Store is now the preferred way ot distribution of an app?	00:35
SpeedEvil	I tried the instructions for adding the RZR repo, and it diddn't work	00:38
SpeedEvil	apt-get upgdate said that it was ignoring the repo	00:38
SpeedEvil	Is this s I was screwing up, or doesn't work with latest	00:39
SpeedEvil	Is ovi store really appropraite - for - say - netcat or screen?	00:39
spenap	hmmm	00:39
DocScrutinizer	wut? ovi store is the recommended way to publish devel tools that are not "safe for endusers"?	00:40
spenap	first thing: I used rzr's repo this weekend to get vnc and worked fine	00:40
spenap	but I wouldn't use Ovi to publish "tools"	00:40
spenap	the thing is that I started distributing butaca, the cinema information app, on the rzr repo, but now I'll be favoring the ovi store	00:41
macmaN	sup alls	00:41
macmaN	is anyone BT DUNing with beta2 here?	00:41
macmaN	or BT PANing?	00:41
DocScrutinizer	spenap: the common way to deal with such a problem is probably to "update" the app to a mere infoscreen popping up during install, that says "please get me from OVI store now!"	00:42
MohammadAG	does the N950 support internet radio?	00:43
MohammadAG	I want DI.fm on it	00:43
spenap	DocScrutinizer, that's a good idea, yep	00:43
spenap	thanks	00:43
DocScrutinizer	yw	00:43
artemma	MohammadAG: there's even some internet radio in ovi store. Works quite badly though	00:43
javispedro	it's fun	00:43
MohammadAG	MAFW supports it for sure btw	00:43
javispedro	the only thing Nokia need to encourage use of the ovi store is to let us handle the community repo	00:43
MohammadAG	just not sure music-suite does	00:43
javispedro	*needed	00:43
MohammadAG	you know	00:44
SpeedEvil	I thought there was talk of a community repo browser app	00:44
MohammadAG	extras-devel for distribution harmattan isn't a bad idea	00:44
javispedro	yeah, talk.	00:44
MohammadAG	has X-Fade ever considered it	00:44
javispedro	and probably even code.	00:44
sivang	so N950 is not like Maemo in distribution apps?	00:48
sivang	must go through OVI?	00:48
* sivang is confused again.		00:48
sivang	Is there an conversation post somewhere about this?	00:48
sivang	as in conversations.nokia.com	00:48
* sivang thinks we should have had an harmattan ml		00:49
javispedro	noone wants to talk about harmattan	00:49
javispedro	few do	00:49
javispedro	us	00:49
javispedro	a very small number of nokians and decreasing..	00:49
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sivang	javispedro: so what's news about pbulishing debs to harmattan? no more pub.meego.com?	00:50
javispedro	there's no news, and that's the problem.	00:50
sivang	javispedro: so no announcment about what is the canonical way to publish harmattan debs?	00:51
javispedro	there's no announcement, this is just missing community work.	00:52
sivang	oh, ok.	00:53
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artemma	My name is Artem and I am a harmattanolic	00:56
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SpeedEvil	The canonical way is to place a SD card in a cannon.	01:00
javispedro	good one :D	01:01
sivang	so, nobody has an idea about a good framework for web service backend for connected app?	01:16
artemma	sivang: what kind of app? For publishing debs?	01:16
sivang	artemma: no, for storing informatio user enters at a handset client onto the cloud	01:17
sivang	artemma: I will care about publishing debs when I have an app ready :)	01:17
artemma	Drupal is pretty good for lots of different backends and used in a hell a lot of places including serving the videos	01:17
sivang	artemma: serving the videos where?	01:18
artemma	but it depends on the context as well	01:18
artemma	sivang: I just remember one drupal showcase when whole front end was in flash and backend - drupal	01:18
sivang	does it have anything ready for rating? like giving feedback about a product or a web page?	01:18
artemma	not a typical use case as usually it's both backend and frontend	01:18
sivang	artemma: nice, which app was that?	01:18
artemma	but it depends on the context as well. If you just need to store few bits of data, google app engine may be faster to get started with	01:19
artemma	drupal.org	01:19
sivang	I am checking Django, but there's nothing ready there and it requires lots of custom development, perhaps I should look at an CMS	01:19
sivang	so google appengine is django right?	01:19
artemma	oh well, app engine is django with the head cut out :)	01:19
artemma	or more like with the guts replaced with the conveyor belt	01:20
sivang	yes	01:20
sivang	so I'll go on with Django	01:20
sivang	thanks for the tip	01:20
* sivang heads to bed.		01:20
sivang	night all!	01:20
artemma	beware, that app engine process is different from django	01:20
artemma	start with app engine from start if you plan to use it	01:21
artemma	particularly data storage is different	01:21
sivang	artemma: is it free?	01:21
artemma	app engine is free until some amount of web-request	01:21
artemma	check their pricing	01:21
sivang	I will	01:21
sivang	I can actually use the new service by Andrew and the other guy who invented Django	01:22
sivang	anywya night	01:22
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evilJazz	Cheers!	02:07
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* javispedro args at qmafw docs		02:55
javispedro	enum MafwRenderer::State:	02:55
javispedro	- "Playing": playback state is stopped	02:55
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javispedro	- "Paused": playback state is playing	02:56
javispedro	fun.	02:56
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OwariDa	Does anyone know where I can get hold of this kerneltree for the N950: 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112910?	03:09
OwariDa	I've only found kernel_2.6.32-20112201+0m6.tar.gz	03:10
OwariDa	I want to patch and recompile the wifi driver, so it'd be good with a matching kerneltree .. :)	03:13
javispedro	not yet released	03:15
OwariDa	Ah..	03:16
OwariDa	Thanks anyway.. :) Hmm, you know when the srctree will be released?	03:16
javispedro	no idea, tbh...	03:19
javispedro	either way, how you were planning to do that with aegis? did you do it on beta1?	03:19
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javispedro	stupid qmafw is deciding to sometimes not to send me the albumart for the currently playing album :P	03:39
berndhs	well you know, unauthorized copying of music is one thing, but album art, that's where the tolerance stops	03:43
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OwariDa	javispedro: i was under the impression that i can load kernelmodules, at least with develsh, even with aegis?	04:27
javispedro	oh hoho.	04:27
OwariDa	i haven't tried though, so don't really know. saw some thread about someone using a kernelmodule to disable aegis though? :)	04:28
javispedro	OwariDa: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=4575	04:28
OwariDa	Ok, reading.	04:28
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OwariDa	Haha, ah, so you were the one developing the kernelmodule in question. :D	04:29
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OwariDa	Is the flaw you found still there?	04:32
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Tronic	javispedro: What's your take: is it a good idea to go beta2?	04:38
Tronic	I'm still on a largely unlocked beta1.	04:38
Tronic	(but the bugs of that nag me)	04:38
javispedro	depends on your usecases.	04:39
javispedro	OwariDa: yes, but it's not that useful until you get kernel source.	04:39
OwariDa	Need kernelsymaddys?	04:39
javispedro	and the build system	04:40
OwariDa	I'm getting curious. :) Vulnerability research and exploit development is my primary interest/focus. The project I'm working on at the moment requires me to try to implement monitor mode support for the wl1271 though, and I think I know a way to do it.	04:42
OwariDa	But unless I can build, and load, unsigned kernel modules it's useless anyway.	04:43
SpeedEvil	it's impossible to run arbitrary binaries with relaced-exec on latest?	04:44
DocScrutinizer	aiui yes	04:45
DocScrutinizer	javispedro should know for good	04:45
javispedro	impossible in stock	04:46
Tronic	javispedro: Well, so far I haven't had need for hardware access denied by aegis, and I might survive being only able to run packaged apps and not being able to debug on device.	04:47
OwariDa	Wouldn't running arbitrary binaries be possible with any vulnerability in a signed app that leads to arbitrary code execution..? And since it can be a regular app and not necessarily SUID etc -> not written with security in mind -> should be trivial to find a suitable vuln -> payload that is able to unmap original code segments and then load/link an ELF from memory = Run arbitrary apps.	04:47
javispedro	OwariDa: aegis blocks PROT_EXEC mmaps from unsigned binaries	04:48
Tronic	But I guess this is more about whether there will be publicly known hacks to disable aegis in the future, with beta2 and later.	04:48
OwariDa	"from unsigned binaries"..? But is a PROT_EXEC mmap() allowed from within a signed binary?	04:48
OwariDa	Is mprotect() restricted?	04:49
javispedro	OwariDa: depends on the _target_	04:49
javispedro	if its anonymous mem, I don't remember what happens (not even tried I think)	04:49
Tronic	And also whether having a cracked beta1 device helps cracking future versions.	04:49
OwariDa	Well, obviously I don't need to mmap() from the binary I want to execute.	04:49
javispedro	if it's a file, it is hashed and checked.	04:49
OwariDa	So, it's quite likely I can mmap() anonymous mem and then read from file and write into that.	04:50
javispedro	mmaping prot_exec anonymous memory is not quite "likely"	04:50
OwariDa	If they've restricted that, JIT-compiling interpreters wouldn't work either.	04:50
javispedro	but it is something I'd expect the policy not to consider at all..	04:51
DocScrutinizer	could we install develsh.deb of beta1 on beta2?	04:52
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: you have it?	04:52
OwariDa	I just checked validator.c in the kernelsrc that was available, and as far as I can see they don't care about anon mappings + they don't do anything about mprotect().	04:52
DocScrutinizer	I guess I have it, yes	04:53
DocScrutinizer	if it's ever been on the device or on Nokia's repo then I have it	04:53
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: thing is, I think it's not been on either, since it came preinstalled	04:54
javispedro	it might have been on Nokia repo though	04:54
OwariDa	-> Should be trivial to bypass aegis. The payload is admittedly not really trivial though, but has already been done for projects like metasploit (in-memory .so-injection).	04:54
DocScrutinizer	so what? just extract the signature and manifest set of tokens from that file	04:54
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: _what_ file	04:55
OwariDa	That's just for executing unsigned binaries though, kernelmodules would require a different method.	04:55
DocScrutinizer	isn't there a file that ooooh probably never has the signature enclosing/sealing the whole stuff	04:55
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: on the .deb :(	04:55
OwariDa	javispedro: Have I overlooked anything, or do you agree with my reasoning?	04:56
DocScrutinizer	mompl, is it supposed to be called develsh* ?	04:56
javispedro	OwariDa: it is currently much easier than that. Plus, by talking about this stuff you're actually enraging me.	04:56
javispedro	this. should. not. be. android.	04:56
Tronic	DocScrutinizer: Yes, version 0.13 IIRC.	04:58
OwariDa	Ok, I'm entirely new to harmattan etc, and don't really understand why talking about bypassing aegis might enrage you? Care to explain?	04:58
DocScrutinizer	./pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh	04:58
DocScrutinizer	./pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh/develsh_1.13+0m6.dsc	04:58
DocScrutinizer	./pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh/develsh_1.13+0m6.tar.gz	04:58
DocScrutinizer	hmm :-/	04:58
javispedro	OwariDa: you read my post? I explain it there	04:59
Tronic	develsh_1.13+0m6.deb	04:59
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: that is source	04:59
OwariDa	I didn't read everything no.	04:59
DocScrutinizer	that's why "hmm :-/"	04:59
DocScrutinizer	though, lemme check the rsync as of a few weeks ago :-)	05:00
Tronic	Automated rsync + git for version history would be awesome.	05:01
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DocScrutinizer	[jr@lagrange nokia]$ find harmattan-dev.nokia.com_2011-07-18/ -name 'develsh'	05:01
DocScrutinizer	harmattan-dev.nokia.com_2011-07-18/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh	05:01
DocScrutinizer	harmattan-dev.nokia.com_2011-07-18/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh/develsh_1.13+0m6.dsc	05:01
DocScrutinizer	harmattan-dev.nokia.com_2011-07-18/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/develsh/develsh_1.13+0m6.tar.gz	05:01
DocScrutinizer	:-(	05:01
javispedro	you didn't sync the ondevice repo	05:02
DocScrutinizer	?	05:03
javispedro	harmattan-dev is the public one	05:03
javispedro	there's some other in other nokia.com domain	05:03
javispedro	the one that requires http auth	05:03
OwariDa	javispedro: I read enough to understand that you're upset about there not being any official way to open the device up for development etc, which I agree with. I also understood that you want to keep your latest aegis hole private for some time. So, one possible reason for you to be upset is that you don't want new aegis flaws to be discussed in public..?	05:03
DocScrutinizer	yeah	05:03
javispedro	OwariDa: what don't want is to start having to scavenge for bugs like on most other platforms. I've said I've done it once, and that I have to do it again, I'm leaving the platform.	05:05
DocScrutinizer	while meanwhile we got Tuesday here	05:07
Kypeli	I guess in general, at least for me, the most disappointing fact is that it seems the talks aboit the open mode were all a myth.	05:07
OwariDa	I agree with that. It's sad that there is no truly open phone yet.	05:07
Kypeli	Or stuff just changed after Feb11. But still	05:07
SpeedEvil	OwariDa: neo1973/freerunner	05:08
DocScrutinizer	\o/	05:08
OwariDa	Ok, with a few exceptions then. :)	05:08
DocScrutinizer	~ DocScrutinizer	05:08
infobot	from memory, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko	05:08
OwariDa	But it's sad that the "mainstream" platforms are so locked down.	05:08
berndhs	yes that is sad	05:09
DocScrutinizer	that's for sure	05:09
DocScrutinizer	where "platforms" soon is ISA PC as well	05:09
berndhs	many problems exist in the world and in the industry, and capable engineers are not allowed to fix them	05:09
DocScrutinizer	at least if M$ is making headway with their insane ideas	05:10
OwariDa	Android is reaaaaally open compared to iPhone, where they don't only enforce signed binaries, but require every executable memory page to be signed as well. And that's really just to protect the AppStore money-making model, not to protect the users.. :)	05:10
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: Yeah, I read about the Windows 8 OEM-requirements..	05:10
OwariDa	Insane..	05:11
DocScrutinizer	(protect appstore) do you think aegis is any different?	05:12
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: In its purpose, no. In its implementation, yeah, seems much more crude and more easily defeated.	05:12
DocScrutinizer	if anybody tries to tell you aegis was about user security, just leave that place and don't listen	05:13
GeneralAntilles	Be fun to be a fly on the wall in those meetings.	05:13
OwariDa	And even if they perfect it, one would "just" have to use a ROP-payload to exploit a kernelvuln (and there will always be new kernelvulns...) -> kernelpayload disables aegis -> usermode payload may execute.	05:14
OwariDa	I only wonder how long the rat race has to keep going..	05:14
OwariDa	Vulnerabilityresearchers/exploitdevelopers will always have flaws to use for running their code. It's, sadly, the developers that are the losers in the end..	05:16
DocScrutinizer	it eventually will change from a systemwide/kernel rat race to a per-app rat arce	05:16
OwariDa	How so?	05:17
DocScrutinizer	when we got a "jailbreak" and Nokia starts to add traps to each single app	05:17
OwariDa	Well, any app is a potential target, since it's only used to exploit a kernelvuln -> disable aegis systemwide.	05:18
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: that presumes the platform is not abandonware	05:19
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	05:19
OwariDa	And I really don't see how that would change into a per-app rat race, unless they start doing behaviour profiling of apps, only allows the minimum set of syscalls for each, etc. And even then it won't be enough.	05:20
SpeedEvil	Only allow minimum set of syscalls is the whole point of aegis	05:20
DocScrutinizer	nah, you got me wrong, I was talking about dialer et al not working on a jailbreaked system, due to tests in the particular app	05:21
berndhs	don't forget that they also want to measure user behaviour for marketing purposes	05:21
OwariDa	The "whole point" of aegis seems to be more about making sure binaries are signed.	05:21
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OwariDa	Which is far away from being granular enough to be useful for any kind of security purposes.	05:22
SpeedEvil	Aegis - in principle - with a finely granular enough set of permissions, and a sane review team reviewing those permissions is a good thing from a security POV	05:23
OwariDa	Besides that it's just POSIX capabilities, right?	05:23
DocScrutinizer	ope, aegis also revokes and/or grants permissions to particular bimaries	05:23
SpeedEvil	You can in principle have 'this binary can show red pixels' as a capability.	05:23
DocScrutinizer	yep, aiui mostly posix permissions, though also each "app" can provide services that are a permission class of their own	05:24
OwariDa	SpeedEvil: Well, in practice, that's not going to happen. And as long as I have open()/read()/write() and ioctl() I'm good to go most of the time when it comes to kernel vulnerabilities.	05:24
DocScrutinizer	you may have those perms only for some files, while not for others	05:25
GeneralAntilles	(Rays tied for wild card! Die Boston, die!)	05:26
DocScrutinizer	or aegis might trigger selfdestruction when you access such a file	05:26
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: That's just POSIX capabilities. It's still not granular enough.	05:26
OwariDa	-> DoS.	05:27
DocScrutinizer	yeah, DoS is pretty simple on aegis systems. So much for user's increased security	05:28
OwariDa	If they wanted some level of real security, they should have gone for grsec.	05:28
DocScrutinizer	actually aegis helps a lot for DoS	05:29
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: Yeah, a lot of "security features" are pretty good for DoS purposes. :)	05:29
DocScrutinizer	on beta1 a mere "echo FsckYou >/var/malf" was enough :-P	05:30
OwariDa	:D	05:30
javispedro	OwariDa: "and there will always be new kernelvulns..." that's quite pessimist.	05:30
javispedro	yes, there will be, but one per year or similar.	05:31
javispedro	enough time to make the device boring	05:31
OwariDa	javispedro: Have you seen the stats on linuxkernelvulns? :D	05:31
DocScrutinizer	plus we won't see new kernels, so no new vulns	05:31
javispedro	OwariDa: so what.	05:32
javispedro	most of them are pretty boring from this point of view	05:32
DocScrutinizer	Linux RM680 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112201 #1 PREEMPT Wed Jun 1 18:17:45 EEST 2011 armv7l GNU/Linux	05:33
* DocScrutinizer glares at the hash and feels like puking		05:33
OwariDa	javispedro: A lot of them are really only "useful" for DoS, and a lot of them are useful for a lot more but requires quite a bit of work. A few are more easily exploited, and those are usually the ones ending up with public sploits.	05:33
DocScrutinizer	oops no hash	05:33
javispedro	which end up being ... once a year.	05:33
OwariDa	And, now it's my turn. So what? ;)	05:34
DocScrutinizer	anybody any idea what dfl61 means?	05:34
OwariDa	There are a lot of exploits that are never made public. And a lot of exploitable vulns that are made public, although noone bothers to research & exploit them.	05:35
DocScrutinizer	well, your set of available vulnerabilities in kernel is pretty much defined, see uname above	05:37
OwariDa	Just as an example: http://kernelwars.blogspot.com/ <--- See the GDI-exploit there, it was left unpatched for two years after Microsoft was told about it. When Cesar announced it publicly (without an exploit, since he wasn't able to exploit it himself) I naively thought someone would exploit it shortly after, and that it would be patched.	05:37
DocScrutinizer	and I'd be surprised to find some known vulns not fixed in tha kenel - well maybe not too much though	05:38
OwariDa	It was left unpatched, and unexploited, for almost half a year until I announced my sploit for it.	05:38
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: Yeah, a serious Linux kernel vuln will certainly not be left unpatched. But a phone manufacturer will not release a firmware upgrade either, just because of the multitude of vulns that are reported in each new version of the kernel.	05:39
OwariDa	Since, as javispedro points out, there are usually no public exploits.	05:39
DocScrutinizer	there are no new kernel version for harmattan	05:39
OwariDa	(oh yeah, forgot to mention that Joel Eriksson = me, with regards to the kernelwars thingie)	05:40
OwariDa	Yeah. I doubt that they've backported all relevant patches for kernels later than 2.6.32..	05:40
DocScrutinizer	so any new vulns would be those already there but not found yet	05:40
OwariDa	DocScrutinizer: No, there are probably quite a lot of _already public_ kernelvulns for 2.6.32. Like I said, public exploits for the vulns in question is a different story.	05:41
OwariDa	There are even public kernel exploits for kernels that old.	05:42
DocScrutinizer	OwariDa: kernel source is public, you may check what vulnerabilities they patched and which ones are still there	05:42
OwariDa	And now we're back to where this conversation started. Yeah, sort of. I have the 2.6.32-20112201 src, but would need the src for the 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112910 kernel on my phone.	05:44
OwariDa	And it seems like Nokia haven't released that kernelsrc yet.	05:44
DocScrutinizer	yeah, annoying	05:45
OwariDa	Indeed.	05:45
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OwariDa	Is javis always this stingy?	05:49
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Sazpaimon	http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-NEW-Flex-Cable-Camera-Nokia-N9-N9-00-W-TRACK-/320746791119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aadffa0cf#shId	06:54
Sazpaimon	so the flex cable and housing are on ebay	06:55
Sazpaimon	all I need now is the camera module, mainboard, lcd and digitizer	06:55
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sivang	morning all	10:06
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RST38h	Good moorning	10:34
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gri	did anyone ever succeed in using x11 remote with the n950 (for video recording)?	10:44
spenap	gri, to record screencast I run vnc2flv in host and vnc on device	10:45
gri	is vnc fast enaugh?	10:46
spenap	gri, judge yourself: http://youtu.be/udVQLEVadrw	10:47
mece	apparently N9 is now shipping: http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/09/27/nokia-n9-is-heading-to-the-shops/	10:47
gri	mece: I have an empty page with header and videos on the right, but text is missing :P	10:49
RST38h	Is it shipping with the same firmware we have got? =)	10:50
gri	spenap: Where do I get the vnc server for the device?	10:50
spenap	I'll give you the instructions, one sec	10:50
spenap	http://www.who.is.free.fr/wiki/doku.php?id=vnc	10:50
spenap	from rZr's stuff :)	10:50
hiemanshu	there was an unboxing video on Youtube too	10:50
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spenap	you'll have to get bash from the official repos at http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/b/bash/	10:51
spenap	gri, ^	10:51
gri	spenap: Even though no user logs in with it?	10:53
spenap	yes: if you check the instructions, bash is somehow required to successfully install VNC	10:53
spenap	or to successfully configure VNC when installing it	10:53
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tomma	err... why not x11vnc?	11:03
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tomma	oh it was x11vnc	11:04
gri	But it seems much slower over here than in spenap's video	11:05
Arkenoi	Are skype contact fields still "invisible" in contact cards in beta2?	11:05
spenap	gri, I recorded the video using the USB connection	11:05
gri	spenap: I also use the usb connection	11:05
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spenap	then, I don't know	11:06
gri	did you lower the colors or something?	11:06
spenap	I launched VNC on the device as stated in rzr's wiki, and in my desktop, I used flvrec.py	11:07
gri	switching off compression makes it much faster	11:08
spenap	from here: http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/python/vnc2flv/index.html	11:08
spenap	much faster than you had it previously or much faster than in my videos?	11:08
gri	Than I had ... now it's about the speed you have in your video	11:08
spenap	ok	11:10
gri	something like recordmydesktop on the device would still be nice :/	11:10
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gri	mece: Can you view the "nokia n9 is heading to the shops" page? I see "Nothing found for .."	11:27
macmaN	ulala	11:31
gri	spenap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOmAgj-8_uE my test :) I don't like the artifacts, but it works	11:35
spenap	gri, nice :). Usually, in order to avoid the artifacts, I try not to scroll / move too fast :D	11:37
gri	spenap: Can't change the page transitions :)	11:38
spenap	yes, that has to go that way :P	11:38
mtd	is the aegis-protected /home/user/.local/share/tracker/data/ backed up by the Settings -> Sync/Backup -> Backup process?	11:47
gri	This directory is not aegis protected	11:50
gri	atleast not by aegisfs	11:50
gri	you only need to be member of the metadata group which you are when running develsh	11:51
mece	gri, they removed it. you can still see it on the aggregator page: http://blogs.nokia.com/	11:52
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Arkenoi	https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s_BC2gJKWWw/ToDpflsjsnI/AAAAAAAAAUo/FqwGyVlOD4E/s800/20110927_003.jpg <- why so much digital noise, it was not that dark..	11:55
hiemanshu	maybe its the freaky cat with powers :P	11:56
mtd	gri: the group is, sorry for being imprecise (my source is http://meego.gitorious.org/tracker/tracker/blobs/1e2768f5142c6f38e45783a5682fdabb076407b5/debian/tracker.postins , so could be wrong)	11:57
mtd	gri: forgot about develsh, thanks.	11:57
gri	mtd: "Sorry, page not found"	11:57
Arkenoi	what is the difference between devel-sh and develsh?	11:58
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gri	Arkenoi: Nothing	11:58
mtd	gri: http://meego.gitorious.org/tracker/tracker/blobs/1e2768f5142c6f38e45783a5682fdabb076407b5/debian/tracker.postinst	11:58
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Arkenoi	gri: then why there are two with different names? :-)	12:00
gri	Arkenoi: Maybe they realized typing "-" is annoying :P	12:00
gri	mtd: Yes, the group is metadata-users then, nothing new?!	12:01
mece	ok it's official again.. Nokia N9 begins shipping http://press.nokia.com/2011/09/27/nokia-n9-begins-shipping/	12:05
gri	If it were available in germany ...	12:06
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SpeedEvil	hmm	12:06
gri	amazon.de lists a way too expensive EU-Import version and doesn't even provide the red one! only blue and black	12:06
SpeedEvil	480eur is considerably belw some expectations.	12:06
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mtd	gri: indeed. I thought you were asking for the correct link, so I gave it to you. Thanks for your recminder about develsh.	12:08
djszapi	Hi! Is Ovi documented somewhere in the public SDK, like how the QA process of them works, basic policies and things like that ?	12:08
SpeedEvil	http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nokia-N9-Dummy-Toy-Display-Device-Phone-/150666746804?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2314701bb4	12:09
djszapi	(ovi.nokia.com is not too detailed)	12:09
mece	djszapi, I think it's in the development library. Hold on, I was just looking at profanity limitations the other day	12:09
SpeedEvil	Buy several, resell as 'not working/spares'	12:09
mece	djszapi, did you check here: http://support.publish.ovi.com/	12:10
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artemma	what is Mobile Internet Radio in the annoucement?	12:11
djszapi	mece: yes	12:11
* artemma doesn't remember seeing anything like Mobile Internet Radio in N950		12:12
djszapi	mece: I was actually reading the pages, like this one now: http://store.ovi.com/legal/privacy -> but it is not that much information, nothing concrete to me.	12:12
mece	djszapi, http://support.publish.ovi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Ovi_Store_Content_Guidelines1.pdf has some rules about content	12:13
djszapi	yes, I read that, but imho that is sloppy.	12:13
mece	yeah I guess. Well I haven't seen anything else	12:13
artemma	That dummy plastic N9 on ebay is funny. It's a pity they don't seem to have a pink one :)	12:14
djszapi	how good is the Ovi QA nowadays ?	12:14
maxw	anyone know a way to make a bookmark before loading the page itself?	12:14
SpeedEvil	Go to offline mode, enter URL, go, bookmark?	12:16
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Arkenoi	http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Right-Angled-Micro-USB-OTG-Host-Cable-Adapter-Nokia-N900-N8-N9-Archos-70-101-MID-/120784322266?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item1c1f4e7eda wtf, n9 does not have OTG?	12:20
RST38h	Or they do not have N9	12:20
djszapi	mece: so they basically say a submitter should consider, but they do not say how they prevent direct attackers.	12:20
dm8tbr	Arkenoi: not mechanically and not in the original software	12:20
djszapi	what a submitter*	12:20
hiemanshu	http://press.nokia.com/2011/09/27/nokia-n9-begins-shipping/	12:20
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dm8tbr	Arkenoi: although this looks like a 'custom' cable with a micro-b connector	12:21
dm8tbr	usually for host it would be micro-a	12:21
mece	djszapi, apparently not. Seems it's on a trial and error basis	12:22
Arkenoi	http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Portable-Battery-Charger-pack-Nokia-N950-/270784583675?pt=UK_MobilePhones_MobilePhoneAccessories_MobilePhoneChargers&hash=item3f0c04d7fb wow, that's funny: real n950 accessory (see, it actually looks like it was designed to fit n950)	12:22
rantom	hiemanshu: Guess who started to search for a retailer now to buy it from?	12:23
djszapi	mece: my only concern is that they force us into this non-qa repository without either 1) Improved quality or 2) Providing enough "power" for the community to have a repository (like extra was for the N900)	12:23
SpeedEvil	Arkenoi: Oh wow.	12:23
SpeedEvil	Arkenoi: Also known as 'you don't really want this USB port on that board, do you'	12:23
leinir	ffs... here's me trying to set up an ovi store publisher account... and getting an error 500 when i get to payment :P	12:24
mece	djszapi, "extras" for harmattan is in progress.	12:24
Arkenoi	:-)	12:24
mece	djszapi, http://apps.formeego.com/applications/	12:24
djszapi	mece: except that what I said. It does not have enough power (proper signing, source origin and credentials)	12:25
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mece	djszapi, mhm	12:27
djszapi	hi wazd! :)	12:27
djszapi	mmm, an interesting comparison (I guess it is a bit new yet, thus it is not that proper full list yet): http://vesuri.jormas.com/n9apps/	12:27
wazd	heya	12:28
wazd	djszapi: I'm a terrible person, I know :D	12:28
djszapi	mece: also, what I miss from Ovi is the granularity. Right away, I had to put 20+ packages into one application in able to push it there.	12:29
Arkenoi	I have to admit harmattan twitter client sucks big time	12:30
Arkenoi	at least current beta does	12:30
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Arkenoi	there is dropbox app in development iirc	12:31
djszapi	it should probably be a community anyways, not one's personal page.	12:31
djszapi	community page*	12:32
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vladest	is there is top-like tool but with GUI?	12:34
macmaN	sup alls	12:37
macmaN	gonna try one last time	12:37
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macmaN	anyone here successfully tethering 3g over BT with beta2?	12:37
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djszapi	Arkenoi: do you have a link by hand for that dropbox startings ?	12:39
Arkenoi	cannot find it :-( bumped into it somewhere on the web a few days ago	12:42
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djszapi	http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/08/file-manager-harmattan-n9-n950-alpha-0-1-0-released/ -> The closest I found this is from, but it is not dropbox either.	12:42
djszapi	from Ash*	12:42
Arkenoi	nope, it was some dropbox app announce	12:43
djszapi	vnc is also there on N9	12:44
djszapi	actually even vpngui	12:44
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SpeedEvil	~aegis	12:47
infobot	http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif	12:47
kimju	just got a sms(-spam) from Elisa/Saunalahti (finnish operator) that their stores will have N9 on 13.10.	12:50
maxw	SpeedEvil: re bookmark, that doesn't seem to work. what am I missing?	12:50
SpeedEvil	maxw: Sorry - I hadn't tried it	12:50
Arkenoi	one-huge-plain-page application menu in harmattan is clearly designed for people that use no more that 3-5-10 apps on their phones :-(	12:50
gri	folders are apple-patented?	12:51
maxw	SpeedEvil: basically, I'm trying to bookmark the bbc radio2 non-microsoft link on http://www.listenlive.eu/uk.html/ but there are no options to bookmark, and if I click it, it opens a media player which also doesn't seem to have any way to 'bookmark' it.	12:53
SpeedEvil	maxw: That actually works?	12:54
SpeedEvil	I gave up when iplayer said foad.	12:54
maxw	SpeedEvil: yeah, the link plays in media player...but no way to make it remember. n900 would, but not n950 :/	12:55
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SpeedEvil	If I click the non-windows link, it downloads a pls file	12:58
SpeedEvil	and that's all	12:58
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djszapi	Is there a test interface for OVI or proper documentation what they actually did about QA and defenses ?	12:59
hiemanshu	you can play the pls file in an app from Ovi Store	12:59
hiemanshu	MeeRadio or something	12:59
djszapi	I would like to know whether how hard to make a spam application which simply gets into.	12:59
hiemanshu	maxw: ^	13:00
SpeedEvil	maxw: what device - and what version?	13:00
maxw	what's a pls file?	13:00
djszapi	I am having couple of basic ideas for an attack and I am wondering whether OVI defends against those.	13:00
hiemanshu	maxw: playlist	13:00
maxw	ah, indeed...but it works on n950 anyway	13:01
sivang	so, where do I buy an N9 if I live in Israel? :)	13:01
djszapi	sivang: why not N10 ? ;0	13:01
djszapi	;)	13:01
maxw	hiemanshu: I guess I need to make an icon and edit some .desktop file...	13:02
sivang	djszapi: is it released already the N10 ? :)	13:03
hiemanshu	maxw: what exactly are you trying to do?	13:03
maxw	I want to make some kind of 'quick launch' for bbc radio 2.	13:03
maxw	a bookmark might work	13:03
sivang	not that I will have the money to buy it :)	13:03
sivang	djszapi: ^^	13:03
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SpeedEvil	maxw: doesn't here.	13:04
maxw	ideally an icon on the app launcher	13:04
maxw	SpeedEvil: eh?	13:04
maxw	SpeedEvil: where/what is 'here'?	13:04
djszapi	sivang: you know, you already have to have a new stuff while publishing one :p	13:04
alterego	maxw: a bookmark is basically an icon in the launcher :P	13:05
maxw	ah, well, because that link opens in the media player, there is no option to make an icon in the launcher	13:05
SpeedEvil	maxw: Doesn't work with latest image.	13:06
SpeedEvil	maxw: latest public image	13:06
maxw	SpeedEvil: it does on the one I'm using...what is it? beta or something?	13:06
maxw	SpeedEvil: it 'downloads' something, then when you launch the downloaded file, it opens in the media player	13:07
maxw	^something^the playlist, I suppose	13:07
alterego	Interesting to know where support until 2015 came from, that sounds insane ..	13:07
artemma	just got a text message from my GSM operator. N9 will be in Elisa's stores in Finland on Oct 13	13:07
hiemanshu	maxw: install MeeRadio, add the BBC pls file to it	13:08
hiemanshu	two clicks and done :)	13:08
SpeedEvil	maxw: Odd.	13:08
* artemma doesn't like MeeRadio - it was never able to play without weird sound interruptions for me		13:08
maxw	hiemanshu: where do I get the bbc pls file?	13:08
hiemanshu	artemma: worked just fine for me, I use it every day	13:08
SpeedEvil	maxw: When I go to the media player, and select it, it does nothing	13:08
hiemanshu	maxw: <SpeedEvil> If I click the non-windows link, it downloads a pls file	13:09
maxw	SpeedEvil: 'select it' - I don't select on anything...it just opens and plays	13:09
artemma	hiemanshu: maybe I was unfortunate then, will try again.	13:10
maxw	hiemanshu: I'm listening to it now	13:10
dimitar	has anybody actually gotten bbc[1234] to work with meeradio?	13:10
dimitar	my experience is that bbc plays some sily tricks	13:10
maxw	dimitar: I tried it a while ago, but was using the direct bbc links and it didn't work...want to know how too	13:10
jussi	artemma: I just got same message :)	13:10
dimitar	try mplayer http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4_heaacv2.pls	13:11
dimitar	as it is	13:11
dimitar	don't download the pls	13:11
dimitar	the thing they do is	13:11
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Venemo_N950	hi	13:11
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dimitar	bbc sends you some temporary link	13:12
Venemo_N950	anyone got a production N9 yet?	13:12
dimitar	something very long	13:12
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maxw	I saw someone on the bus with one yesterday	13:12
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dimitar	and mostly different every time you try to acces	13:12
maxw	a middle-aged woman - I was a little surprised	13:12
hiemanshu	Venemo_N950: there is an unboxing video on youtube	13:12
hiemanshu	maxw: sure it wasn't a chinese fake? :P	13:13
Venemo_N950	maxw, did you check what the fw version of the final N9 image is?	13:13
Venemo_N950	hehe	13:13
maxw	in Finland...don't think so :p	13:13
maxw	I just tried the pls link with meeradio and it doesn't work - stream error. This appears to be a text file. I guess I should look inside that file and use a url from there.	13:14
artemma	maxw, middle-aged women work for Nokia too. Finland is a country of equal opportunities :)	13:14
djszapi	maxw: there are many middle ages women at Nokia relevant to the project.	13:14
maxw	yeah, I know, I know	13:14
maxw	sexist and ageist at the same time - shame on me	13:14
maxw	anyway, I would have expected it of a geek-type, like myself	13:15
dimitar	maxw: try with mplayer on some regular computer, you will see what happens	13:15
maxw	I guess it really is a fashion phone :)	13:15
artemma	can we somehow sue several MEur from maxw, by being sexist and ageist in front of us..?	13:15
SpeedEvil	maxw: odd.	13:16
artemma	oh maybe we just make him buy our apps. The cool ones certainly	13:16
Venemo_N950	lol	13:16
maxw	is there a way to copy text from the terminal?	13:16
Venemo_N950	maxw, so did you check the fw version?	13:16
maxw	on the n9 I saw on the bus? no...	13:16
djszapi	maxw: if the woman looked cool, you should care about the woman, not the phone come on ...	13:18
djszapi	=)	13:18
maxw	I'm not a lesbian :p	13:19
artemma	since the only thing he noticed besides N9 was her middle-age, I guess she was not cool by maxw's standards	13:19
djszapi	maxw: ahhh that way, soooooorry! :p	13:19
Venemo_N950	maxw, it was a mistake	13:20
maxw	how to copy/paste text from the terminal?	13:20
* artemma wonders if his nick somehow indicates his sex		13:20
hiemanshu	maxw: you cannot	13:20
maxw	sigh...is there a gui editor available yet?	13:20
hiemanshu	KhtEditor I think	13:21
artemma	maxw, most of the time I ssh to N950 from desktop. There you can copy, paste, whatever	13:21
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maxw	yeah, can't do that at the moment	13:22
artemma	well, if you really need to get text out of terminal you can redirect output to file	13:22
artemma	maybe it could be opened by notes then	13:22
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mece	khteditor is sweet	13:30
maxw	artemma: I can't seem to find where the notes files are stored - it doesn't seem to allow selecting files, or am I missing something	13:32
maxw	?	13:32
artemma	maxw, that was just an idea, sorry	13:33
artemma	I think harmattan includes some *nix text editor	13:33
artemma	like vi maybe	13:33
artemma	but I never used anything like that	13:33
artemma	so cannot comment	13:33
maxw	need gvim to be able to copy/paste in to the UI, I think...	13:33
maxw	I didn't notice it, since I would have noticed it due to using vim "all the time"	13:34
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maxw	artemma: I make a note with 'Bla' in it, thinking it would make a file that contained 'Bla', but 'find' couldn't find it.	13:36
gri	Uhm, when entering dist-upgrade on my device: The following packages will be REMOVED:	13:36
gri	mp-harmattan-rm680-pr	13:36
gri	:D	13:36
gri	argh, newlines	13:36
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maxw	oh, well - give up with this bookmark thing until I can get in on ssh.	13:39
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mece	I wounder if we should expect final firmware for N950 now that N9 is shipping...	13:42
alterego	Was it decided that you have to pay the 1EUR for Ovi registration?	13:43
artemma	mece, I'd say it depends way more on whether the Nokia boss responsible for firmwares decides to push for a decent work. IMHO there's not too much financial reason for Nokia to go through releasing and testing of yet another FW	13:44
hiemanshu	mece: I'd say no	13:44
artemma	that would certainly be good for attracting developers, but IMHO many in Nokia feel like it's lost already	13:44
alterego	mece: The N950 will get continued updates in line with N9.	13:45
* artemma would be glфв ещ иу цкщтп		13:45
* artemma would be glad to be wrong		13:45
mece	alterego, thanks.	13:45
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hiemanshu	artemma: source?	13:45
mece	what I actually meant is that is the current N950 firmware the sane(ish) as the final N9 firmware?	13:45
artemma	alterego: yes, it's one year	13:45
alterego	Someone tweeted earlier about the N9 being supported until 2015, that I think is BS ;)	13:45
hiemanshu	err	13:45
hiemanshu	alterego: source?	13:45
artemma	hiemanshu: only my own speculations based on my past in Nokia	13:45
mece	Klas Ström, head of Nokia Sweden	13:46
alterego	hiemanshu: @klasstrom	13:46
hiemanshu	ah	13:46
alterego	Wait, what?	13:46
alterego	He's Nokia?	13:46
mece	tweeted @klasstrom: Nokia will provide software updates, care and services support for the #NokiaN9 until at least 2015 #MeeGo #Harmattan	13:46
hiemanshu	alterego: I was looking for a source for <alterego> mece: The N950 will get continued updates in line with N9. :P	13:46
alterego	Well, from what I know of the Harmattan roadmap that seems very strange indeed.	13:46
artemma	oh, if there's significant N9 update, updating N950 makes sense	13:46
alterego	hiemanshu: can't tell you sorry.	13:47
hiemanshu	alterego: if its from a decent source, and not just another rumour, so its cool :)	13:47
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alterego	hiemanshu: it's decent, but tbh, these days things change, and we get screwed, so you can never be 100% sure, but that is the general idea at the moment ;)	13:48
alterego	Wow, if they plan on supporting the N9 until 2015, that means they'll probably get to something like PR5.4 :P	13:49
hiemanshu	alterego: ofc, but having some say 'Yes' atleast makes us happy for a bit :P	13:49
alterego	Personally though, I plan on obtaining an N9, using that and using the N950 for MeeGo CE	13:49
mece	ok Klas Ström is "Head of Portfolio Management at Nokia"	13:49
alterego	We will always have below N9 UX wrt to keyboard and no NFC.	13:49
alterego	Angry Birds is a prime example of that ..	13:50
mece	alterego, sounds like my plan. I'll get N9 once my N900 is fully paid for. End of october.	13:50
alterego	mece: :)	13:50
alterego	I wonder if Quims offer of N950 for N9 trade is going to happen.	13:50
mece	alterego, I wouldn't want to do that.	13:50
alterego	I personally wont do that, but it might be something someone wants to do :)	13:51
mece	perhaps	13:51
alterego	I'd imagine if someone wanted to play with NFC, and can't afford to get an N9 it might be a good idea.	13:51
mece	I want an N9 for general use and N950 for hacking and making people jealous.	13:52
alterego	And I'd like the N9 screen ..	13:52
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alterego	I wonder if anyone has totalled their N950 yet.	13:52
mece	alterego, I'd like the N9 radio reception	13:52
alterego	It'd be funny to see an #WasN950Club	13:52
mece	N9 is shipping in Lebanon :)	13:52
alterego	mece: oh yes, that too :D	13:52
artemma	Why does harmattan twitter app know nothing about twitter list	13:55
* artemma doesn't like his notifications be spammed with dozens of updates from contacts I don't want to watch every minute		13:55
jreznik	mece: sounds like a good plan to have one as phone and one to make people jealous (and for playing, sorry, development with reflashing etc.)	13:55
* artemma wants Gravity for harmattan		13:55
DocScrutinizer	maxw: notes is as useless in concept of "no pathnames, no filenames - users don't want to deal with that" as you'd reasonably expect for an OS that is following this inane paradigm	13:55
alterego	I suppose with Klas Strom's tweet you have to read inbetween the lines, doesn't mean software updates, just means could include software updates, care and services support :)	13:55
mece	artemma, I've always wondered, what is so great about gravity?	13:56
maxw	DocScrutinizer: yeah, but with n900, you could find the files somehow...are they no longer on the filesystem or something. in sqlite or something?	13:56
mece	alterego, aye	13:56
DocScrutinizer	maxw: I dunno, and I don't care. Notes is completely useless	13:56
maxw	DocScrutinizer: well, it seems I must agree :/ in this case anyway	13:57
artemma	mece, I am not sure I could outline one big point about gravity. It's a multitude of small things that are very well done. On S60 it had a big plus for being very fast compared to usual apps, but that was only the initial push	13:57
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 02:45:36] <DocScrutinizer> same zealots that teach us that no app should bother about filesystem and pathnames anymore, as some magic tracker will offer "just the right files" for each app, each usecase, always	13:57
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 02:45:44] <DocScrutinizer> what a hybris	13:57
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 02:48:12] <DocScrutinizer> oh, missed that one in my top-10 of the worst ideas and concepts of the past, resurrected in harmattan	13:57
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 02:50:19] <DocScrutinizer> goes right on top, even before missing close button on #3 and missing c&p and missing homescreen sharing #2	13:58
mece	artemma, well I'd argue that TwimGo is pretty smooth.	13:59
artemma	mece, indeed, TwimGo is a good competitor. Not as good as gravity yet, but with potential	13:59
mece	artemma, what does gravity do that twimgo doesn't? (I don't actually use TwimGo, I've just tested it briefly and heard opinions)	14:00
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artemma	mece, I didn't really care to record my impressions.. :/ I think I remember that it was very bad with N950 keyboard VS on screen keyboard (opening at wrong times), then it wasn't too good with the lists VS everybody (too many alerts about what I don't want to be alerted) and most of all it was closing-restarting often	14:01
mece	artemma, ok :)	14:02
artemma	yeah, I think it was closing-restarting that actually made me stop trying. Whenever I swype out and then start using it again, it was going to main screen and loading tweets from scratch	14:03
mece	artemma, ok :)	14:04
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DocScrutinizer	lemme summarize my notions about HARM: it's very polished to give that first-use blows-you-outa-your-socks effect. After 3 months of usage you won't have any more wow-effect on cheap eyecandy and UI designs, you start to swear about each detail, like missing groups (aka directories ;-P) for the meanwhile 900 notes you've taken with your 10/d diary entries mixed up with shopping lists, terrible poems and whatnot else. Virtually every	14:10
DocScrutinizer	aspect of the GUI is designed with this initial wow in mind and neglecting workflow optimizations	14:10
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Jaffa	Morning, all	14:11
alterego	Ooo, just had an idea, I wonder if I can get some really small neat rubber feat to stick on the N950 ..	14:11
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DocScrutinizer	alterego: use some sticky tape that has the properties you want	14:13
DocScrutinizer	e.g. the one you wrap around tennis racks and racing bike handles	14:13
alterego	If I use double sided I could mount it to a wall	14:14
mece	alterego, there are those things you put on small doors so they don't make loud noises when you close them	14:14
mece	alterego, hehe	14:14
alterego	DocScrutinizer: yeah, like insulation tape.	14:14
DocScrutinizer	whatever meets your reqirements	14:14
DocScrutinizer	I just think sticky tape is thin enough, unlike "feet"	14:14
mece	Jaffa, o/	14:15
DocScrutinizer	yeah, hi Jaffa	14:15
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alterego	Where's the community repo?	14:49
alterego	Handy would be the deb line :)	14:49
djszapi	http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page#Development_Repositories	14:49
alterego	Thanks :)	14:50
djszapi	or is there a newer ?	14:50
djszapi	mmm, nope, the QA repo did not still proceed.	14:55
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faenil	hey everyone :D	15:16
sivang	hey faenil	15:16
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djszapi	how are you, faenil ?	15:18
faenil	alright ;)	15:18
faenil	waiting for lesson to being at uni :D	15:18
faenil	Algo 2	15:18
faenil	:)	15:18
faenil	what bout u?	15:19
djszapi	alright. :) Bit disappointed the isle of open source (They rejected almost everybody with talk proposal I am aware of), but that is okay.	15:19
djszapi	about*	15:20
sivang	ohh Algo 2	15:20
sivang	which algo's are discussed?	15:20
sivang	djszapi: isle of open source rejected most of the talks?	15:21
sivang	djszapi: I actually proposed a talk but did not get any response.	15:21
DocScrutinizer	I just learned that beta2 NOLO is booting unsigned kernels, just shows a warning	15:21
djszapi	me neither, but my friend asked them more times and they said him : "too ready software" lol	15:21
faenil	lol	15:24
nibbler	DocScrutinizer: i hope it stays that way. although i use the stock image, it's a nice option to have.	15:25
sivang	djszapi: too ready softrware?	15:25
sivang	djszapi: I acrtually proposed soemthing about cloud computing and CouchDB	15:25
djszapi	yup	15:26
Venemo_N950	hey djszapi	15:26
djszapi	Venemo_N950 o/ :)	15:26
Venemo_N950	how're you today?	15:26
djszapi	Venemo_N950: everything is alright. Do you plan to put irc-chatter into Ovi store btw ?	15:26
faenil	djszapi: I'm sorry the talk got refused...hadn't it already been accepted?	15:27
djszapi	faenil: for the Linux mobile summit, both talks were accepted, but this is a different event in Malta.	15:27
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sivang	hey Venemo_N950 !	15:27
DocScrutinizer	I'm pondering to purposely taint the binary kernel (edit one char in uname -a string) and see how bootup and general system operation differs	15:28
sivang	djszapi: linux mobile summit in Malta as well?	15:28
sivang	DocScrutinizer: would not that allow using a different kernel without aegis as well?	15:28
DocScrutinizer	yes	15:28
faenil	djszapi: oh ok...	15:28
Venemo_N950	djszapi, dunno, should I?	15:29
DocScrutinizer	but if aegis isn't too stupid, it will notice the device is in open mode due to kernel not being correctly signed/hashed, and will stop pestering users/devels	15:29
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faenil	sivang: Algo 2, approximate string matching	15:29
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djszapi	sivang: the linux mobile summit is in Oulu: http://fruct.org/MobileLinux2	15:31
djszapi	Venemo_N950: yeah, if you can package it together with the library.	15:31
sivang	faenil: oh yummy	15:31
Venemo_N950	hey sivang, what's up?	15:31
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sivang	Venemo_N950: very good actually :)	15:31
sivang	Venemo_N950: are you using your irc client right now on the N950?	15:31
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Venemo_N950	sivang, bingo	15:33
DocScrutinizer	please compare for beta2:	15:33
Venemo_N950	sivang, what else? :)	15:33
DocScrutinizer	RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# md5sum /dev/mtd0ro	15:33
DocScrutinizer	de28e7e3d97e4122423bb5d6f2b3f587 /dev/mtd0ro	15:33
Venemo_N950	djszapi, why is that necessary?	15:33
sivang	Venemo_N950: making my django models for 2 apps of mine	15:34
djszapi	Venemo_N950: because people could have access easier to it.	15:34
sivang	Venemo_N950: and also working on creating an handset client for UX feedback for N9	15:34
sivang	Venemo_N950: as per CrowdQuick	15:34
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Venemo_N950	sivang, yeah I think I remember	15:34
Venemo_N950	djszapi, maybe I should link statically?	15:35
faenil	following the lessons, cya later guys	15:36
faenil	lesson*	15:36
sivang	DocScrutinizer: I'm back at using Django for the backend btw, it seems the sanest approach	15:36
sivang	DocScrutinizer: and it has 3 rest wrapper projects to choose from :)	15:36
sivang	*REST	15:36
djszapi	Venemo_N950: up to you.	15:36
Venemo_N950	isn't django some python crap?	15:37
Venemo_N950	djszapi, that'd make it easier to package	15:37
hiemanshu	Venemo_N950: python isnt crap	15:37
djszapi	Venemo_N950: django is a very powerful and well documented framework. I liked it.	15:38
djszapi	Venemo_N950: well, we got the source code as it was into our project earlier, but static linking works, too. Really up to you.	15:38
artemma	django isn't crap, it's just not something you use for your site out of the box. It's more of a powerful framework rather than a ready to use CMS	15:38
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djszapi	Venemo_N950: iirc, this is written in django: http://www.archlinux.org/	15:39
Venemo_N950	the emphasis was on python	15:39
Venemo_N950	isn't django based on python?	15:39
DocScrutinizer	sivang: nfi what's django	15:39
djszapi	it is	15:39
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Venemo_N950	so it's just another interpreted crap	15:40
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DocScrutinizer	md5sum /dev/mtd0ro ? anybody?	15:55
Venemo_N950	DocScrutinizer, moment	15:56
sivang	DocScrutinizer: a python web frameowrk	15:57
sivang	Django is pure love.	15:57
nibbler	4c3c751d0d8928cb5fee92ec5f978d13	15:57
sivang	5 minutes to have your backend up and running willing to accepts handset client requests and do stuff on them.	15:58
sivang	nibbler: ?	15:58
djszapi	I think we were also doing AUR2 in django for archlinux	15:58
Venemo_N950	DocScrutinizer, can't copypaste but it's differebt from nibbler's	15:58
nibbler	that was for V1.2011.34-2_PR_RM680	15:59
djszapi	http://git.berlios.de/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=aur2;a=summary -> oh yes, it was a nifty django project. :)	15:59
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 14:33:49] <DocScrutinizer> RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# md5sum /dev/mtd0ro	15:59
DocScrutinizer	[2011-09-27 14:33:49] <DocScrutinizer> de28e7e3d97e4122423bb5d6f2b3f587 /dev/mtd0ro	15:59
berndhs	9ac9e8fcbc174ca923185cb54f612492 /dev/mtd0ro	16:00
Venemo_N950	b5487aa.....	16:01
DocScrutinizer	RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# strings /dev/mtd0ro \|grep "NOLO X"\|head -n 1	16:02
DocScrutinizer	NOLO Xloader Harmattan v2.0.37 (May 25 2011)	16:02
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sivang	djszapi: what is AUR2?	16:04
djszapi	it was targetted few years ago for the AUR replacement. (AUR is like PPA on Ubuntu)	16:04
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sivang	djszapi: but for arch?	16:04
Venemo_N950	DocScrutinizer, sh: strings not found	16:04
DocScrutinizer	s/NOLO X/NOLO O/ -> Nokia OMAP Loader Harmattan v2.0.37 (May 25 2011)	16:05
sivang	DocScrutinizer: so you managed to boot unsigned kernelk?	16:05
DocScrutinizer	forget sthe strings	16:05
DocScrutinizer	sivang: not me	16:05
Venemo_N950	DocScrutinizer, how do I get these strings?	16:06
DocScrutinizer	cat /dev/mtd0ro \|grep "NOLO X"\|head -n 1	16:06
djszapi	sivang: yeah	16:07
sivang	what does XLoader means?	16:07
sivang	djszapi: nice	16:07
sivang	djszapi: comapred to learning curve with Plone/ Zope Django is much like cheating.	16:07
sivang	djszapi: e.g. too damn easy ;)	16:07
sivang	djszapi: I am also going to use piston or the other project for REST	16:08
Venemo_N950	NOLO Xloader Harmattan v2.0.49 aug 22	16:08
djszapi	sivang: agree, django is good, and even well-documented.	16:08
sivang	it is well document	16:08
sivang	djszapi: https://github.com/toastdriven/django-tastypie	16:08
sivang	djszapi: it might be even easier to work with that rather than with Piston	16:08
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N950: thanks	16:08
djszapi	yeah, it was very well documented also years ago.	16:09
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sivang	djszapi: I guess that is why it is so popular and google use it for all of their mobile apps	16:12
sivang	djszapi: as a backend, that is.	16:12
sivang	djszapi: app engine is based on Django, BTW	16:12
sivang	and FYI	16:12
sivang	:)	16:12
Venemo_N950	DocScrutinizer, yw	16:12
djszapi	yep. I wrote a webserver in C though :p	16:12
djszapi	actually asm + C for an arm project in the past.	16:12
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Venemo_N950	djszapi, you can write a webserver in C in <100 lines	16:15
Venemo_N950	been there, done that	16:15
djszapi	it was about 4000-5000 LOC	16:15
Venemo_N950	i guess yours was more complex :)	16:16
djszapi	yeah, but way much faster than any router's web configuration service. I think they do not write it in low-level C.	16:17
sivang	djszapi: nice	16:17
sivang	djszapi: they do it in perl last time I checked	16:18
sivang	djszapi: e.g: router interface	16:18
Venemo_N950	heh	16:18
sivang	so djszapi and Venemo_N950 , my set of Hungarian friend is growing :)	16:18
Venemo_N950	sivang, :)	16:19
djszapi	sivang: regret, you cannot come to the Qt Developer Day.	16:20
sivang	Venemo_N950: we should have an KDE sprint in Budapest somet day	16:20
sivang	djszapi: I wish I could, there might be an option still, but nothing is sure yet.	16:20
* sivang will hold fingers		16:20
sivang	Venemo_N950: will you be in dev days?	16:20
sivang	djszapi: problem is if I get to Munchen again, I will try to leave less beer for others :-p	16:21
sivang	djszapi: Munchen's been is out of this world.	16:21
Venemo_N950	sivang, can't afford the flight even	16:21
sivang	Venemo_N950: same here	16:28
Venemo_N950	sivang :(	16:28
djszapi	Venemo_N950: how about stop ? :p /me hides	16:28
Venemo_N950	djszapi, can't afford accomodations either. and not willing to sleep on the streets	16:29
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djszapi	couch surfing :p	16:30
Venemo_N950	lol	16:31
Venemo_N950	also, dunno how much the entry fee is.	16:31
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djszapi	Venemo_N950: tell them, if it is not free for you, you will make gtk/glib better =)	16:32
leinir	bah, he'd never be able to keep a straight face saying that ;)	16:33
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sivang	djszapi: hahahah	16:33
sivang	about gtk/glib	16:33
sivang	djszapi: the desktop is dead anyways :-p	16:33
Venemo_N950	djszapi .........	16:34
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Venemo_N950	djszapi, yiu have a nice sense of humor	16:34
* sivang likes how easy it is to get up to speed with Qt using QML.		16:34
djszapi	Venemo_N950: btw, do you use KDE ?	16:35
Venemo_N950	djszapi, unfortunately not	16:35
Venemo_N950	djszapi, tried once or twice, had issues, switched back to gnome	16:36
Venemo_N950	but I personally dislike gtk	16:36
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MohammadAG	I like gtk, I hate writing stuff in it	16:38
Venemo_N950	heh, yeah	16:39
MohammadAG	KDE rapes my laptop battery, but after some upgrade gnome broke, and unity's unbearable	16:39
Venemo_N950	gnome 3 is not bad	16:40
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Venemo_N950	imho	16:40
MohammadAG	GNOME 3, unity etc	16:40
MohammadAG	i dislike them all	16:40
Venemo_N950	mhm	16:40
djszapi	vala is a good project imho.	16:40
MohammadAG	they're good for netbooks or touchscreens, but not full sized devices	16:40
Venemo_N950	I need to leave now	16:40
Venemo_N950	ttyl	16:41
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MohammadAG	djszapi, yeah	16:41
* leinir has submitted first app to ovi...		16:50
leinir	let's see how many hits i get on the QA ;)	16:50
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sivang	MohammadAG++	17:01
sivang	MohammadAG dude! how's you today?	17:01
sivang	leinir: congrets! I'm getting there as well	17:01
leinir	cheers! :)	17:02
leinir	http://leinir.dk/apps/cuppa/ <-- that app, if you wanna see ;)	17:02
leinir	gotta run into town for a spell - bbiab!	17:03
sivang	leinir: ttfn	17:03
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Venemo_webchat	hi	17:07
MohammadAG	sivang, back in jerusalem	17:11
sivang	MohammadAG: at least is is colder :)	17:15
sivang	Venemo_webchat: re	17:15
sivang	MohammadAG: still in TLV, boiling hot	17:15
sivang	MohammadAG: I should go to the Uni mountain in Haifa, chill and cozy there	17:16
Venemo_webchat	mhm	17:16
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gri	Arghhh, any git champion in here?	17:52
gri	I accidentally did "checkout master" while my branch was ahead - now the changes are gone - is there a way to switch back to the working copy like it was before?	17:53
djszapi	afaik nope, you did not commit them	17:56
gri	I did commit them but master was not at this position	17:57
djszapi	since it is not in the commit, not in the working tree, not even in the index.	17:57
* DocScrutinizer adores git intuitive and simple UI ¡		17:57
matrixx	gri: git reflog is your friend	17:57
matrixx	http://effectif.com/git/recovering-lost-git-commits	17:57
djszapi	gri: how about git reset HEAD@{1} ?	17:57
gri	I wanted to push them to gitorious but master did not move	17:58
gri	moment	17:58
djszapi	wait	17:58
djszapi	do not make my command without a backup!!	17:58
djszapi	it is just an idea :)	17:58
gri	well, ok :)	17:58
w00t	git reflog to the rescue	17:59
gri	reset head did the trick already	18:00
gri	now qgit shows my changes and it seems master is now where I want it :)	18:00
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gri	thank you all :)	18:01
matrixx	gri: np :)	18:02
alterego	Oh well, looks like I need to install the proper Harmattan SDK	18:03
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alterego	This might take a while.	18:04
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djszapi	gri: mmm, just checked out of the curiosity, and it seems my command also works for that situation :p	18:07
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Andy1210	can i publish non qt app to ovi store?	18:18
djszapi	yeah	18:18
MohammadAG	hmm	18:18
MohammadAG	is there a way to trigger tracker reindexing for ONE file?	18:18
djszapi	Andy1210: I read different section in the ovi store policy guide for Qt apps.	18:19
djszapi	Andy1210: http://support.publish.ovi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Ovi_Store_Content_Guidelines1.pdf	18:20
djszapi	Andy1210: for instance, they mention Java too, but a few others as well in the Technical Requirements section (2)	18:21
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rm_work	was there a release of FBreader for harmattan yet? i don't see it on packrat :(	18:23
djszapi	rm_work: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=fbreader&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan It is not in the community repository either yet	18:24
rm_work	thx	18:25
SpeedEvil	rm_work: Ther was sa deb someone put up that worked quite well	18:26
SpeedEvil	I lost it when flashing, and should go over backscroll	18:26
djszapi	rm_work: http://www.fbreader.org/meego/ There is a link there.	18:27
djszapi	rm_work: if you need the source: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/%23harmattan.2011-09-20.log.html#t2011-09-20T22:41:48	18:27
rm_work	thanks again	18:28
rm_work	got it	18:28
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gri	djszapi: So ovi only allows me one package? If I want to use libqjson, I have to link it statically to not conflict with other packages?	18:37
djszapi	yeah either statically or build it from source with your project, but I would go for static linkage.	18:38
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djszapi	make sure it works, test it properly.	18:38
gri	hmm, sad that libqjson-dev in rzr's repository does not contain the .a file	18:38
djszapi	remediable.	18:39
MohammadAG	gri, I think qjson is built in	18:39
MohammadAG	aka on the N950 by default	18:40
MohammadAG	might be mistaken	18:40
hiemanshu	gri: thats for static support right	18:40
sivang	MohammadAG: I think so as well, I saw at least one social thingo using it, failed to remember which	18:40
gri	MohammadAG: Havent found it on the device / in madde	18:40
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djszapi	gri: is this also bad ? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/q/qjson/	18:40
MohammadAG	gri, /usr/lib/libqjson.so.0.7.1	18:40
MohammadAG	ii libqjson0 0.7.1-1+maemo4+0m6 qt-based library that maps JSON data to QVariant objects	18:41
MohammadAG	works fine for sociality, didn't have to install it	18:41
djszapi	MohammadAG: that is not the point, look for static instead.	18:41
sivang	djszapi: /pool/ reminds of me Debian goodness in Maemo	18:41
djszapi	ah sorry, I was wrong	18:41
djszapi	it is builtin.	18:41
MohammadAG	djszapi, why? it's on device	18:41
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gri	MohammadAG: Damn, you're right	18:41
MohammadAG	that's a bad thing? :P	18:41
djszapi	gri: just grep it from the link I pasted.	18:41
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djszapi	and you will be alright	18:41
MohammadAG	still haven't got models though	18:42
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gri	I was looking for a "libqjson" folder in include instead of the pkgconfig one	18:42
djszapi	gri: if you somehow do not have it	18:42
gri	djszapi: I have it, I was just too blind to see it	18:42
djszapi	=)	18:42
djszapi	sivang: sorry ?	18:42
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djszapi	gri: but thanks for your enlightment, we should remove that from the community repository.	18:42
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sivang	djszapi: pool/harmattan-beta/free/q/qjson	18:44
sivang	djszapi: unlike meego	18:44
sivang	djszapi: I miss .debs :)	18:45
djszapi	mm, it would be nice if they provide an SDK package changelog that we can check out and cleaning the community repository up consistently according to that instead of catching up sometimes some duplication because of the quickly evolving SDK.	18:45
leinir	ew, .deb :P	18:46
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sivang	leinir: :)	18:46
leinir	my binary blob with meta info is totally better than your binary blob with meta info ;)	18:46
djszapi	sivang: Yeah, I like debian packaging, and especially how much they care about the API, BC and other breakages.	18:46
sivang	djszapi: same here	18:47
hiemanshu	RPM FTW!	18:47
djszapi	nobody else cares about that and could gently manage the continous plasma and other packages for instance.	18:47
sivang	leinir: Well, I know this blobl and it allows me cute things in terms of ABI, like djszapi said	18:47
leinir	how does .deb do that? surely that's a tooling issue	18:47
Andy1210	now i registered to ovi puplisher program, i can publish non qt app (deb file), but ony one file! How can i upload multiple file for same project?	18:48
sivang	leinir: I forgot how, perhaps RPM does this as well :) but I am more used to .debs :)	18:49
djszapi	it not tooling issue, it is just a fundamental policy that others do not really care about.	18:49
MohammadAG	RPM sucks, but let's take that argument to #meego :p	18:49
sivang	djszapi: care to remind me please? :)	18:49
djszapi	look at my kdelibs package on Harmattan and y ou will see.	18:49
sivang	djszapi: can you find me a link to the src pkg?	18:50
sivang	*please :)	18:51
djszapi	https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=kdelibs&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan	18:51
sivang	leinir: I think what djszapi means is that , by actually having a policy that forces some stuff in the dependency policy	18:51
sivang	leinir: memory starts to get back to me :)	18:52
rantom	Nokia Link is out	18:52
rantom	http://europe.nokia.com/support/product-support/nokia-link/compatibility-and-download	18:52
djszapi	it is very simple. If plasma decides in the same major release (as they did few times) to break the interface, debian will not change to the new interface, and say who cares about the applications depending an the old version	18:53
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sivang	what's Nokia link?	18:53
leinir	djszapi, sivang: Yes, but that, again, is just a policy... it has nothing to do with the particular binary blob you happen to be carrying the stuff in :P	18:53
djszapi	it has.	18:53
djszapi	you have different packages actually.	18:53
leinir	sivang: it is a syncing application which doesn't run on linux ;)	18:53
sivang	leinir: oh, ok. Don't care :-p	18:54
djszapi	even from the same debian folder.	18:54
djszapi	that is something you cannot do at other place, and you /can/ do that with one debian folder in some cases.	18:55
sivang	djszapi: oh right, create multiple binary package from the same source!	18:55
sivang	djszapi: multiarch FTW	18:55
leinir	so... again, rpm does this just fine (i have done it, so don't start ;) )	18:56
djszapi	it is not about rpm, you slight misunderstand it	18:56
sivang	djszapi: ^	18:56
sivang	:)	18:56
djszapi	*slightly	18:57
djszapi	this policy is clearly missing from meego, what debian does, and how I try to act on my harmattan packages.	18:57
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djszapi	and distros like fedora /never/ splits anything	18:58
djszapi	(so it is impossible for them, I think, to handle this)	18:58
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leinir	That's what i'm saying - blame where blame applies, it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with rpm vs. deb, and everything to do with specific distributions choosing one type of policy or another	18:59
djszapi	you were only saying .deb	19:00
djszapi	if you read back (actually I thought you were reading what I wrote), I was speaking about debian packaging.	19:00
djszapi	you were even saying it is tooling issue :)	19:01
djszapi	18:49 < djszapi> it not tooling issue, it is just a fundamental policy that others do not really care about.	19:01
MohammadAG	ffs	19:01
MohammadAG	my app segfaults for no reasno	19:01
djszapi	MohammadAG: mtf ?	19:02
MohammadAG	yes	19:02
MohammadAG	#0 0x43e9a4c4 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libmeegotouchcore.so.0	19:02
MohammadAG	#1 0x43e9b520 in MSceneManager::appearSceneWindow(MSceneWindow*, MSceneWindow::DeletionPolicy) ()	19:02
MohammadAG	from /usr/lib/libmeegotouchcore.so.0	19:02
leinir	djszapi: no, i was talking to sivang - not you.	19:02
djszapi	leinir: does not matter, it is clearly not a tooling issue :)	19:02
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MohammadAG	djszapi, any ideas?	19:05
djszapi	Could you please send the whole gdb and valgrind output (ideally a snippet reproducing the issue) ?	19:07
MohammadAG	whole gdb?	19:07
djszapi	yeah, thread backtrace	19:09
djszapi	but I prefer valgrind with enough deep settings over gdb.	19:09
MohammadAG	djszapi, code has no mistakes	19:10
MohammadAG	http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=p3ytRW4u	19:10
djszapi	can you send the code ?	19:10
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djszapi	mmm, weird as it had crashed before the main in the initialization stage.	19:11
djszapi	as if*	19:11
MohammadAG	djszapi, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ym1V5CYU	19:12
MohammadAG	qDebug() line returns true	19:12
djszapi	it is a bit hard without debug symbols.	19:13
MohammadAG	friendsPage is a QPointer<FriendsPage>	19:13
djszapi	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/libm/libmeegotouch/ -> cannot you install debug symbols ?	19:13
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djszapi	The null pointers are quite likely due to optimizations. apart from the very last frame one often has null pointer in backtraces for completely valid objects	19:14
MohammadAG	point is	19:14
MohammadAG	new FriendsPage() is returning NULL rather than an instance	19:14
frals	so	19:17
frals	MApplicationPage::createContent();	19:17
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MohammadAG	what about it?	19:17
MohammadAG	it doesn't segfault at that	19:18
MohammadAG	it segfaults on the appear line	19:18
MohammadAG	and that line works fine in other classes	19:18
djszapi	your dbebug line is also telling there is a null pointer. erm, that's, well, interesting	19:18
frals	but your constructor is not returning a valid pointer, or wasnt that the problem?	19:18
MohammadAG	frals, yes	19:19
MohammadAG	I removed everything from my constructor, and removed createContent()	19:19
Mek_	nothing is assigned to friendsPage	19:19
MohammadAG	basically it's an empty page subclass now	19:20
Mek_	== vs =	19:20
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djszapi	:)	19:21
djszapi	true	19:21
MohammadAG	oh shit	19:21
frals	lol	19:21
* MohammadAG headdesks		19:21
MohammadAG	I deleted the whole class :/	19:22
djszapi	weird that, gcc does not scream	19:22
djszapi	so that there is no effect on a check without having any deal with the result.	19:22
gri	does the ovi store have some kind of callback when an user "buys" an application? I mean the apple appstore has such a function which does a callback on your server with the deviceid	19:23
MohammadAG	god I feel stupid	19:23
hiemanshu	MohammadAG: finally know the truth now? :P	19:24
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djszapi	gcc screams here by using -Wall	19:25
hiemanshu	ofc, if you hit gcc to a Wall, it will scream	19:26
MohammadAG	Qt Creator should be stabbed for now using that then	19:26
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djszapi	echo "int main() { int a; if (a == 2) a == 3; return 0; }" > main.c && gcc -Wall main.c	19:26
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djszapi	any idea why "osc up" does not fetch all the packages from the shared community repository ? It does not fetch qjson for instance, thus I cannot remove it. :/	19:28
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Daremonai	quick question, do i need UIDs to deploy on ovi store for harmattan devices?	19:32
MohammadAG	UIDs?	19:32
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* sivang tries to understand if he really needs QmlViewer that is boiler printed into every new QML project in Qt Creator		19:33
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faenil	MohammadAG: I think Daremonai is referring to Symbian deployment	19:33
MohammadAG	faenil, and how is this Symbian? :P	19:34
Daremonai	faenil, yeah with symbian i use UIDs, i'm asking if i need that as well here	19:34
MohammadAG	on that note, UIDs are the most retarded concept ever	19:34
Daremonai	so i guess that's a no, thanks :)	19:34
faenil	MohammadAG: ofc this is not symbian, he just wanted to know if there's anything like that to be done on harmattan	19:34
MohammadAG	Daremonai, no, package names decide if it's the same package or not	19:34
MohammadAG	afaik on Symbian two packages can be named foo but their UIDs have to differ	19:35
Daremonai	perfect, thanks MohammadAG/ faenil	19:35
Daremonai	MohammadAG, true	19:35
faenil	Daremonai: np :)	19:35
faenil	MohammadAG: yes	19:35
faenil	and there are three UIDs, one SID, and stuff	19:35
faenil	xD	19:35
Daremonai	:)	19:36
MohammadAG	target capabilities are annoying	19:36
djszapi	would be convenient to have a delete link or button on the c-obs pages.	19:36
MohammadAG	kinda remind me of Aegis manifests though	19:36
djszapi	mainly because osc does not work :/	19:37
faenil	MohammadAG: I've always found them a good thing instead...	19:37
faenil	to be*	19:37
Daremonai	there's no need for certificates either?	19:37
MohammadAG	faenil, then you have a 20 capability certificate?	19:37
MohammadAG	Daremonai, no	19:37
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faenil	MohammadAG: yes XD	19:37
Daremonai	I like harmattan :)	19:37
MohammadAG	you'd like Maemo 5 more, it didn't have manifests :P	19:38
Daremonai	hehe	19:38
MohammadAG	k, I think my model's right	19:38
Daremonai	what about the svg for the icon, does it have to be tinySVG?	19:38
MohammadAG	now to figure out how to make the list from it	19:38
MohammadAG	it can be PNG afaik	19:38
faenil	same, tinySVG was for Symbian :D	19:38
djszapi	MohammadAG: Could you please delete your stuff ? https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=qjson&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan Also, please use separate debian package.	19:38
Daremonai	i like svgs, but if png works, then great	19:39
MohammadAG	SVGs can work, but afaik PNGs work :p	19:39
Daremonai	:)	19:39
MohammadAG	djszapi, Package 'qjson' was removed successfully from project 'home:rzr:harmattan'	19:40
MohammadAG	djszapi, got a proper not outdated MList example?	19:40
djszapi	thanks.	19:40
RST38h	moo gentlemen	19:41
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djszapi	MohammadAG: http://paste.kde.org/127873/ -> That is my content item creator	19:44
djszapi	the rest should be up to date in the documentation	19:44
Daremonai	btw portrait mode just woudln't work on harmattan, i can't understand why. (tried pagewindowstack/page and used the qmlapplicataionviewer to force orientation to be portrait), just wouldn't work.	19:45
djszapi	MohammadAG: and then something like this: http://paste.kde.org/127885/	19:45
alterego	Damnit, what's the command to generate the debian/ directory structure?	19:46
* alterego has forgotten.		19:46
alterego	I thought it was dh_make or something like that.	19:46
djszapi	dpkg-source -x *.dsc	19:47
djszapi	if you have the debian files.	19:47
alterego	No, that's not what I asked.	19:47
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* alterego googles		19:48
MohammadAG	djszapi, so wait, the values have to be a QStringList?	19:48
alterego	It is dh_make, why isn't it installed -_-	19:49
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djszapi	alterego: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/dh-make/	19:55
alterego	Yes, I know.	19:55
alterego	I have used it quite a lot before ..	19:55
alterego	Just forgot what it was called ..	19:55
djszapi	good	19:55
djszapi	well, it is obvious it is not installed on the device by default since you do not build the package there.	19:56
alterego	Who said anything about the device?	19:56
djszapi	MohammadAG: AFAIK, should be able to store arbitrary data which is compatible to qvariant.	19:56
alterego	I'm talking about scratchbox SDK ..	19:56
alterego	You really do presume too much :P	19:56
djszapi	well, it is installed here.	19:56
alterego	I just ran the SDK and no, it isn't installed there ..	19:57
alterego	SDK installer ..	19:57
djszapi	file a bug.	19:57
alterego	Maybe I will :P	19:57
djszapi	ok, I think it is easier if I file an internal b ug.	19:58
alterego	That would be even better :P	19:58
djszapi	alterego: you are trying the new SDK (just for making sure), aren't you ?	19:59
alterego	I just installed the BETA scratchbox SDK from the swipe developer.nokia.com site.	20:00
djszapi	ok thanks.	20:03
MohammadAG	djszapi, k, no segfaults and the model looks fine, just need to figure out how to add items to the model	20:04
djszapi	beginInsertRows and beginInsertColumns	20:05
djszapi	also insertRow and insertColumn.	20:05
djszapi	for instance: https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/games/gluon/repository/revisions/master/entry/player/lib/models/commentitemsmodel.cpp#L272	20:06
djszapi	sandst1: is it possible to embed this program into your application that we used at the meego summit in Tampere ? http://fruct.org/MobileLinux2	20:11
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sandst1	djszapi: yes it's possible, you just have to use the same xml schema. Or then sojourner with the pentabarf schema	20:22
djszapi	sandst1: have you tried to run the meegosummit fi app on N950/N9 ?	20:22
sandst1	djszapi: nope	20:22
djszapi	ok, let me try.	20:23
djszapi	sandst1: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/m/meegosummitfi/meegosummitfi_0.0.2-0maemo2_armel.deb -> not found	20:23
sandst1	djszapi: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/m/meegosummitfi/meegosummitfi_0.0.2-0maemo3_armel.deb	20:24
djszapi	roger	20:25
djszapi	this app would also be very useful for the Qt Developer Day.	20:26
djszapi	sandst1: mmm, we do not have yet mcsp on harmattan	20:27
djszapi	do we need that on Harmattan ?	20:27
djszapi	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/mcsp/1.0-6/ -> according to the description, I am not sure.	20:28
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djszapi	we probably need to re-package it for Harmattan since it also wants libqt4-maemo5.	20:29
sandst1	djszapi: yes, that's needed	20:30
sandst1	repackaging i mean	20:30
djszapi	will do as soon as I can get gitorious working.	20:30
sandst1	djszapi: i moved into using github, it's also in github.com/sandst1/meegosummitfi	20:30
Daremonai	another quick question about the icon, does it have to be rounded and 80x80 pixels etc. (following the icon guidlines for N9 or is that just 'suggestions' and i could have something squary or new kind of shape/etc.)?	20:33
djszapi	yeah, that is ideal	20:33
Daremonai	sorry, i forgot - for the launcher	20:33
sandst1	Daremonai: all you need is javispedro's icon generator :) http://depot.javispedro.com/nit/hicg/	20:33
Daremonai	sandst1: that is indeed pretty awesome :)	20:34
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sandst1	Daremonai: yeah, that saved me from crappy icons :)	20:35
djszapi	sandst1: where can I find the debian folder for the debian package ?	20:35
djszapi	control.tar.gz contains only the control file, and I guess we also need a rules, changelog, sources/format and other files.	20:36
sandst1	djszapi: i was bored and used qt creator's packaging. https://github.com/sandst1/meegosummitfi/tree/master/qtc_packaging/debian_fremantle	20:36
sandst1	djszapi: ah. no	20:37
Daremonai	sandst1: any idea if it's safe to use the tool online or are the pictures perma-saved on the host's website?	20:37
sandst1	Daremonai: ask javispedro :) i guess he isn't collecting people's icons : D	20:38
sandst1	djszapi: got the correct packaging files at my scratchbox. justasec	20:38
sandst1	Daremonai: so i'd say it's safe	20:39
Daremonai	sandst1: cool, thanks :) and thanks javispedro	20:39
javispedro	Daremonai: I can clear them today if you want to	20:39
* RST38h moos at javispedro		20:39
javispedro	moo RST38h	20:39
sandst1	djszapi: koti.kapsi.fi/~sh8dfwk/msfi.debian.tar.gz	20:40
Daremonai	javispedro: it's fine I guess	20:40
djszapi	sandst1: this is for Harmattan or still Fremantle ?	20:40
sandst1	djszapi: fremantle	20:40
javispedro	Daremonai: well, if you want, just tell me and I'll clear them all	20:41
javispedro	been wanting to do it for a while, don't want to convert into a image hosting service =)	20:41
djszapi	.qtcreator, lol	20:41
Daremonai	javispedro :)	20:41
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Daremonai	javispedro, i will be using your website for some of my apps, i would want to bother you everytime... maybe you could add a feature like - 'clear currently generated icons' or smth?	20:42
Daremonai	javispedro, however, it's a great tool, thanks :)	20:43
javispedro	it should just happen daily	20:43
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djszapi	sandst1: http://paste.kde.org/127939/	20:44
Daremonai	javispedro, yeah or that :)	20:45
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djszapi	sandst1: ahhh APPNAME := <Put your package name here>	20:48
Daremonai	boo.. in the launcher it just showed me as a red square... why? :(	20:49
djszapi	reboot	20:49
djszapi	or give absolute path name to your icon.	20:49
djszapi	(inside the desktop file)	20:49
Daremonai	oki, let me try	20:50
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djszapi	sandst1: git-buildpackage is not available on Harmattan :(	21:03
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sandst1	djszapi: what do you need that for? i used just dpkg-buildpackage	21:08
djszapi	sandst1: that does not generate an orig.tar.gz for you.	21:09
djszapi	git-buildpackage does.	21:09
djszapi	but it is a native package with gazillion missing dependencies so I will give it up for now.	21:09
gri	Wow, push-notifications actually work on the beta2 image - it's just some effort to get them working :)	21:10
sandst1	djszapi: ah. ok	21:10
djszapi	I will just use git archive for now	21:10
djszapi	sandst1: have yo uused plain QML or components ?	21:11
sandst1	djszapi: plain	21:13
djszapi	would be nice if you can rewrite it by using components :p	21:14
sandst1	djszapi: guess whether that will happen or not :P	21:15
djszapi	of course! :)	21:15
gri	djszapi: CAL ERROR: open(/dev/mtd1): Permission denied <-- I see this in my application log	21:15
gri	what is mtd1 ?	21:15
sandst1	djszapi: well. Perhaps for msfi 2012 or whatever the summit will be called :)	21:15
MohammadAG	gri, wtf is your application doing?	21:16
gri	MohammadAG: Using ovi notifications	21:16
MohammadAG	wtf are ovi notifications doing with cal	21:16
gri	I have no idea :)	21:16
MohammadAG	djszapi, is it bad if I make MBasicListItems and add them manually?	21:16
MohammadAG	to an MWidget	21:17
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Daremonai	djszapi: thanks putting the full path in the .desktop file worked: Icon=/usr/share/icons/hicolor/80x80/apps/project.png	21:25
djszapi	yes	21:25
djszapi	MohammadAG: ^	21:25
djszapi	gri: that is really obscure, could you please debug that somehow ? That should really not happen	21:26
Daremonai	do i just assume it'll work on the N9 since it works on the n950? also am i allowed to put: "assumed to work" without fully tested for the N9 on the ovi store?	21:30
gri	djszapi: To be honest, this is the notificationsexample from ovi notifications project	21:30
gri	and I have no idea how I should debug without symbols	21:31
djszapi	Daremonai: I can test it for you, if it is not a long time.	21:32
* gri is unable to read assembler shame		21:32
Daremonai	djszapi, it shouldn't take long	21:32
djszapi	gri: well I asked assembler question from a developer at some interview in the past :) He did not know the answer either :p	21:32
djszapi	Daremonai: send the package, and the test steps.	21:33
djszapi	21:33 [freenode] DCC SEND from Daremonai [10.151.35.217 port 1024]: speedy_1.0.2_armel.deb [305kB] -> How can I accept it by using irssi ? :p	21:33
gri	djszapi: I am starting with computer science next week but I heard they teach java, maybe asm still exists for them	21:34
Daremonai	djszapi, haha, ok, i'll put it on some website	21:34
MohammadAG	djszapi, :/	21:34
* gri needs a title to earn more money :P		21:34
djszapi	gri: well, asm was important for us in the DSP development period for optimization of the algorithms.	21:34
djszapi	Daremonai: that, or send to this email: https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/games/gluon/repository/revisions/master/entry/core/singleton.h#L4	21:35
gri	got to eat, bye	21:37
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alterego	Just got the tenancy on my new place :D	21:39
alterego	Can move in next month.	21:39
alterego	24th though, a bit of a wait.	21:39
alterego	Gonna have to stay at my parents for about a week.	21:39
djszapi	sandst1: there is one problem with that package.	21:44
Daremonai	djszapi, i'm writing the test cases, will send it soon	21:44
* djszapi dislikes qmake a lot		21:48
djszapi	sandst1: your project keeps being installed into /usr/local even if I pass PREFIX = /usr to cmake and also in the rules file.	21:49
djszapi	got an idea ?	21:49
RST38h	Yoooo: http://www.fbreader.org/meego/	21:51
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djszapi	sandst1: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=meegosummitfi&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan if you have a sake to play with it, it is now installing to /usr/local/	21:54
MohammadAG	what's better practice to store some data, a list of structs or a list of QObjects?	21:57
hiemanshu	MohammadAG: say data what way?	21:57
hiemanshu	save*	21:58
MohammadAG	hiemanshu, for use in lists	21:58
hiemanshu	Models?	21:58
djszapi	sandst1: Could you please tell me the exact steps to replace the current program with my custom one in a good sense ?	21:58
MohammadAG	yes	21:58
hiemanshu	List of QObjects	21:58
sandst1	djszapi: for meegosummitfi? ok	22:00
sandst1	djszapi: the most important thing is to have a program xml like this: http://summit.meegonetwork.fi/program.xml	22:01
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sandst1	djszapi: then the rest is about changing logos and adjusting the overall look of the app	22:02
Daremonai	djszapi: sent.	22:07
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Daremonai	djszapi: could i also trouble you with taking/sending me a screenshot with the N9 (the right res is needed apparently).	22:10
sandst1	djszapi: xml path here: https://github.com/sandst1/meegosummitfi/blob/master/xmlparser.cpp	22:11
Daremonai	djszapi: (Primary full-size screen shot 854x480)	22:11
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Daremonai	djszapiN9: (not sure if you got my msgs earlier) I sent you the email, and if possible if you could take an in-game screenshot with the N9, the publish tool's asking me for a primary full-size screen shot 854x480. If possible take the screenshot after you press 'Play'. Thank you	22:17
djszapiN9	sure, i am currently excited on the train without my season tickey and wallet since i left those at nokia :p	22:18
Daremonai	djszapiN9: haha :)	22:18
Daremonai	djszapiN9: hope they don't bust you :P	22:19
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lardman	hmm, so has the N9 been released in the UK?	22:19
lardman	(has been a busy week at work)	22:20
frals	up for preorder at expansys afaik	22:21
lardman	oh ok, just that it's not showing on the nokia.co.uk site afaict	22:22
rantom	I think it won't..	22:23
lardman	so I read a few weeks back	22:23
* lardman is tempted by NFC		22:23
lardman	but not so much by the lack of a kb	22:23
rantom	lardman: " Of course, those of us in the US are out of luck, as are those in Germany and the UK (barring any back-door wizardry)"	22:23
rantom	lardman: http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/27/nokia-n9-begins-shipping-at-not-inexpensive-prices/ just what I could find quickly	22:24
lardman	rantom: source?	22:24
lardman	ah thanks	22:24
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rantom	np	22:24
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frals	lardman: http://www.expansys.com/nokia-n9-smartphone-black-64gb-219479/	22:25
frals	and for germans http://www.amazon.de/Nokia-Smartphone-Display-Touchscreen-Megapixel/dp/B005FIY8EG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317121049&sr=8-1	22:25
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frals	so yeah, plenty of "back-door wizardry"	22:26
rantom	Hah	22:26
rantom	http://www.nokia.co.uk/find-products	22:26
rantom	Check the "Phones" icon	22:26
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mece	frals, as someone who just joined the channel, let me just say... I'm sorry but I don't go for these backdoor shenanigans. Sure I'm flattered, maybe even a little curious, but the answer is no.	22:31
mece	- Homer Simpson	22:31
frals	:D	22:31
rantom	:D	22:34
mece	rantom, funny, the icons is an N9, but the N9 is not in the list of phones :D	22:35
rantom	mece: Yep	22:37
rantom	And I was just thinking that it'd be kind of rude to Nokia have a site of N9 in .co.uk but no ways of selling it	22:37
mece	so what is the controversial issues that will be resolved, that ville tweeted about?	22:37
mece	rantom, aah it's the uk site. LOL even worse!	22:37
mece	how to be a dick 101	22:38
rantom	mece: Though I've seen worse. I saw in Metro (newspaper in Finland) an advertisement for Helsingin Sanomat (again, newspaper in Finland). That had a modified N8 on it (Nokia text removed). The bad part: it had iOS-bars in it. The whole topsection was from iOS	22:38
rantom	"whoops"	22:38
mece	wow	22:39
SpeedEvil	rantom: they pulled the store functionality from nokia.co.uk 6 months or more ago	22:40
rantom	SpeedEvil: But they left the icon in there	22:42
SpeedEvil	oh - right	22:42
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djszapi	sandst1: your app does not show up on the applauncher grid.	23:06
MohammadAG	djszapi, any ideas how fast scroll works?	23:06
djszapi	yes, but no time, sorry, maybe tomorrow. Plenty of works here :(	23:06
rantom	MohammadAG: FYI: There's a Flashlight alternative in Ovi	23:07
MohammadAG	rantom, PhoneTorch?	23:07
rantom	MohammadAG: I think that was it's name	23:07
rantom	It uses the LED	23:07
rantom	of camera	23:08
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qgil	DocScrutinizer: you here?	23:23
djszapi	qgil o/	23:24
qgil	hi there	23:24
RST38h	qgil, can we please have aegis disabled, at least in developer mode?	23:24
qgil	vainio is the one that knows about it, I honestly haven't been following it	23:25
qgil	DocScrutinizer: the point is - what do you want to do that aegis won't allow you to do?	23:26
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GeneralAntilles	That's probably a good question for javispedro too.	23:26
javispedro	oh, hi.	23:27
qgil	it's a rhetorical question, vainio knows the answers and he is working with others to try to find the good deal for everybody	23:27
javispedro	well, I've been meaning to make a list on the wiki so that people can add "understable" usecases that are blocked	23:27
javispedro	but from my part, right before the flammatory message on f.m.c I realized I was no longer able to mount a directory from my desktop on the device using NFS	23:28
qgil	javispedro: indeed,. details helps a lot more than arguing whether aegos is really FOSS or not, FOSS friendly or not	23:28
javispedro	( ;) )	23:28
javispedro	DocScrutinizer also will not be able to develop his USB hostmode project, as loading modules is forbidden	23:29
DocScrutinizer	heh, took me a while to switch channels	23:29
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djszapi	sandst1: qmake is full of weird, I cannot manage it to /usr, just /usr/local :(	23:32
DocScrutinizer	qgil: ultra trivial example: I used to open the URL "sftp://root@maemodevice" in desktop Konqueror and happily copy files back and forth without any effort. Now on N950 I can't copy any file to any destination on device like that	23:33
DocScrutinizer	yeah I knoooow there are always workarounds - I'm just saying I don't get 5min of real work done with all the workarounds and workarounds fro workarounds not working like they should, in aegis systems	23:35
DocScrutinizer	for a DEVELOPER system aegis is a killer	23:35
DocScrutinizer	qgil: there's a switch in harmattan settings called "developer mode" (OWTTE) - it should plain disable MSSF all together	23:37
DocScrutinizer	if it needs further security for no malware throwing that switch without user noticing it - so what? implement additional captchas, passwords, whatnot. I don't care. But pretty please relieve us from this aegis curse on DEVELOPER systems	23:38
lardman	night all, time for some sleep before the next fed/nappy change	23:49
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Aegis_blocks	23:55
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