IRC log of #harmattan for Monday, 2011-09-26

ieatlinti should just drive down to the mozilla offices with a bunch of cash and convince someone there to push out an update with my own root cert00:00
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javispedroMohammadAG: because gmail IMAP loves to do stuff such as folders, deleting mail, marking mail as read on the server, and many other things I don't want.00:00
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ieatlinti just use mfe for gmail and it works well on the n95000:01
* artemma is starting the release sequence for the Symbian version of his Harmattan app (this one - about discounts calculation )00:02
DocScrutinizeractually I miss the point in imap, it feels to me like a webmailer without GUI frontend. Why would I possibly want to mess with a mail protocol that needs "always online" to work?00:04
javispedroDocScrutinizer: your webmailer analogy is correct IMHO, but certainly, some people just want that aiui.00:05
ieatlintbecause you can configure your imap client to download and cache messages as they arrive (default config on the n950, in fact), so that even without connectivity you can read your email00:05
javispedro(for "small" messages)00:06
ieatlintand because i keep all my email on the server permanently, so that i can access it from anywhere00:06
DocScrutinizerieatlint: great! so what's been the advantage of this, compared to e.g. POP3?00:06
ieatlintit helps google and governments violate my privacy without bothering me00:06
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: i prefer the syncing... like drafts i write on my phone that show up in the drafts folder of my gmail account, and vise-versa00:07
ieatlintand emails i read on one client are marked read on all others00:07
ieatlintthe labels/folders system also works well for me00:07
DocScrutinizeryeah, works here great as well, using html and arbitrary browsers00:08
ieatlintand method of pop3 is to download items from the server, and configuration gets confusing if i have 3+ devices connected via pop3 all download email -- even if the server (or clients) are set not to delete mail from the server00:08
javispedrothere's no configuration =)00:09
javispedrodepending on the clients, that setup might or might not be possible.00:09
ieatlintimap works on system designed to do this, and it's overall simpler for that purpose... i fail to see any advantage pop3 offers over imap00:09
javispedrothe advatange is in its simplicity: fetch mail. end of the pop3 session.00:10
DocScrutinizeruhuh, what's with always-online?00:10
ieatlintjavispedro: but that's essentially true for imap as well00:11
ieatlintand always online isn't required any more for imap than it is for pop300:11
javispedronot really, there _is_ configuration for IMAP00:11
javispedrofor example, the stock N950 does not download "large" messages (configurable)00:11
javispedroit does not download all folders, either00:11
SpeedEvilHas anyone found a matchingish phone model for a screen protector for the n950?00:11
ieatlintno, you pick the folders you want, which makes more sense, especially for me00:11
ieatlinti have mailing lists i don't check regularly that i don't want to be downloading 100 messages a day00:12
ieatlintSpeedEvil: we could likely get zagg to make an invisibleshield for it, if we give them the specs00:12
SpeedEvilIsn't there a NRE?00:12
DocScrutinizerthere are several generic shield sets out there, and cutting to size shouldn't be hard00:13
ieatlintneed to ensure you don't block the front facing camera, light sensor and proximity sensor though00:13
DocScrutinizermeh for camera00:14
ieatlintit is gorilla glass too... i've had good luck with screens using it so far00:14
DocScrutinizermeh for light sensor. earpiece and proximity sensor are the problematic bits00:14
ieatlinti wonder what would happen if i tried to use a relatively cheap laser cutter on the invisible shield stuff (or another cut to fit screen cover)00:16
ieatlintdoes that stuff risk melting?00:16
DocScrutinizerthe earpiece needs a hole obviously. The prox sensor may or may not care about protector, depending on IR properties of the foil00:16
javispedroDocScrutinizer: btw something you might like about harmattan, check the amount of plain text/.ini style configuration files in ~/.config00:17
javispedroDocScrutinizer: instead of your favourite configuration system, GConf!00:17
ieatlintsomeone get out the callipers and make a gcode file00:17
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: thanks for the prodding00:17
DocScrutinizerI can't recall if I already said it here: "WOW, proximity sensor has a analog distance readout"00:20
javispedroI don't know the scale though00:20
javispedroand according to a few comments in source, it is completely differente between n950 and n900:20
DocScrutinizerI bet it is, as the "distance" is probably just the amount of light reflected back to sensor00:21
javispedromaking the usefulness of it .... questionable00:22
DocScrutinizermaybe some parallax effect. For sure N9's convex tinted glass has some impact00:22
javispedrothe system itself just uses whatever the hardware itself says as for "covered or not"00:22
javispedroaha, I finally got my log file00:25
javispedroit's easy as hell00:26
javispedroif anyone wants to do it, read  ~/.config/Nokia/Messageserver.conf00:26
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javispedronow, I just need to wait until it starts failing again... :P00:28
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, where the 5v USB thread?01:08
DocScrutinizer or somewhere near (FMC just acts up on me)01:10
DocScrutinizer>>Database error<< :-S01:11
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GeneralAntillesGonna make MWKN difficult tonight.01:12
DocScrutinizer is the "seed"01:12
berndhsso has turned professional, strictly 9-5 on weekdays ?01:13
DocScrutinizer is "dead" for me01:14
DocScrutinizerprobably I killed the database by selecting "display: hybrid threded"01:14
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javispedroberndhs: the entire meego infrastructure been turned pro. then01:16
DocScrutinizer * Adam will do RAID update to try to fix some kernel problems, also this needs a short maint break01:17
DocScrutinizerBreaks will be communicated separately by Max and Adam.01:17
DocScrutinizermaybe I missed that separate communication?01:18
berndhsthat's probably it01:18
javispedrowhy is that just seconds after knowing that f.m.c is down I hit, while researching documentation on some topic I'm peculiarly interested, a f.m.c link?01:19
javispedrowhy is also that Google seems to miss from its cache that very link too, hmpf.01:19
DocScrutinizerhmmpf  >>The forum technical staff have been notified of the error, though you may contact them if the problem persists.<<01:22
* javispedro panics as he realizes that "See cached copy" button in google results page has been replaced with a "+1" button that serves no purpose01:23
javispedroah, I now need to click on some javascripty button that takes ages to load to see that button01:24
SpeedEviljavispedro: ass-hats01:25
javispedroalso, what google does, bing copies the next day..01:26
GeneralAntillesI hate Google01:52
GeneralAntillesSo much01:52
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GeneralAntillesThey've really lost sight of what made them big.01:52
SpeedEvilLightweight fast services01:52
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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: again02:19
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: works again02:19
GeneralAntillesYeah, caught it.02:20
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* javispedro quickly raises the laserproof shield03:05
javispedrohm.. what? =)03:07
SpeedEvilhmm - orientation locked apps in the other orientation swipe left to close03:25
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, quick summary of Beta 2's Bullshit Bullet Bologna?03:29
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* javispedro has to go..03:43
javispedrosorry, cya!03:47
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ieatlintcan anyone else confirm that the n950 doesn't have 802.11n/5g support?04:10
nibblerN950 just has a 2,4GHz phy, does g and probably n, but not a/n04:18
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ieatlintguess the n9 and n950 really are farther apart than i had assumed04:25
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TronicBy the feel of it, seems like N950 hardware is based on N900 and N9 is a completely new design.05:18
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GeneralAntillesTronic, not really.05:24
GeneralAntillesN9 and N950 are mostly fairly similar at their cores05:24
GeneralAntillesThey're all pretty different hardware wise.05:25
TronicSame chipset but different chassis, display, camera, nfc, ...05:32
GeneralAntillesThink the camera is the same.05:36
ieatlintnokia claims it's different, but that could be due to just licencing05:39
GeneralAntillesYeah, I suspect it probably has something to do with the Zeiss certification.05:44
ieatlinti thought the only differences were the screen, case and lack of nfc05:46
ieatlintbut there is definitely more as the wifi radio on the n9 definitely does 5g05:47
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KypeliThe camera on the N950 is a 12MPxl camera, while N9 has a 8Mpxl.07:35
KypeliThey are really quite different devices.07:35
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dm8tbrI think 12M was only in the N807:37
ieatlintKypeli: not the n950s the people in here have07:38
ieatlintthe prototype n950s, i've heard, have 12mp cameras and 64gb of storage space... ours are 8mp and 16gb07:38
KypeliIt has a 12Mpxl camera, but it only takes 8Mpxl pictures.07:38
ieatlintthat's depressing then07:39
KypeliThat's why the picture quality is so poor.07:39
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ieatlintthat's rather disappointing if true, and makes me wonder if there's any chance that can be changed07:41
ieatlintheh, someone's being clever07:41
ieatlintor not... i guess just autojoin, ip matches07:43
Stskeepsautojoin, think his machine is still on07:51
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RST38hEHLO gentlemen10:37
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wazdRST38h: o/10:43
RST38hwazd: Heya10:44
RST38hwazd: submitted rest of my stuff to the Ovi Store yesterday. Waiting.10:44
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rantomSpeaking of Ovi Store11:06
rantomIf someone downloaded the Minesweeper and has enabled closing applications from swiping up to down, it doesn't work for that11:07
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rantomNot the biggest issue but wanted to point it out, fyi11:08
RST38hAh, there is a trick11:08
RST38hFor all OffScreen applications, they basically run in landscape, even although they look portrait. So, swipe right-to-left to close.11:09
rantomGood idea11:09
RST38hThere is a fix for that, but it is ugly and I would never have found it if a helpful Nokia guy did not give me a hint11:09
rantomYeah, that works11:09
RST38hFunnier thing is, OffScreen's stuff still assumes 800x480 screen, so some graphics are broken11:10
artemmaI found some interesting sources for harmattan on the web that use /usr/bin/aegis-exec Anybody knows any docs/references about it?11:10
rantomRST38h: You although lose the swiping in portrait from right to left, since it closes the application, in this case11:10
RST38hrantom: Well, complain to OffScreen, do not complain to me.11:11
rantomRST38h: I'm not complaining11:11
rantomBut yeah, thanks11:11
rantomRST38h: Ah, I re-read the symptom for bug, now I understood you. Again, thanks11:12
RST38hUfff... Now I have taken it off my mind =)11:13
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* artemma just discovered apt-get moo :)11:23
wazdRST38h: cool :011:27
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dm8tbron debian there is also aptitude moo11:29
RST38h  !!!11:30
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RST38hOMG, Mohammad, what is that IP address???11:32
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artemmawhy can't I run aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec ?11:49
artemmaTrying it under root11:50
artemmais it some Beta2 specific restriction?11:50
artemmaI get Permission denied11:50
RST38hthey have patched it11:50
artemmaso I can't launch anything from shell now, can I?11:51
RST38huse develsh11:51
artemmaoups, indeed develsh works11:51
artemmaI somehow thought that logging under root is the same as develsh11:52
Arkenoiwhy unofficial terminal lost its icon when default terminal got updated?11:53
RST38hEven better question: if I want to see the whole terminal, how do I get rid of the virtual keyboard? =)11:54
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KaadlajkRST38h: swipe down on the vkb11:59
RST38hdoes not work11:59
Kaadlajkokay guess that does not work on beta2 then :-(11:59
Kaadlajkworks for me on N912:00
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sandst1works for me on the N95012:06
sandst1with beta212:06
* RST38h must be swiping wrong12:06
sandst1RST38h: swipe down on top of the VKB only, not on the whole screen12:07
RST38hyeah, that is what I did12:07
sandst1RST38h: oh.... strange..12:08
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* Arkenoi wonders if layout switching is broken forever or will be fixed someday12:13
Arkenoifor physical keyboard12:13
dm8tbrArkenoi: care to elaborate?12:15
ajalkanealso clicking top part of term window closes kbd12:19
ajalkanethe swipe down must start on the vkbd for it to work12:19
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Arkenoidm8tbr, that's simple: "smart" auto capitalization is actually more than stupid. You cannot turn it off, and it makes text entry with alternate layout almost impossible due to a stupid bug:12:32
Arkenoiit does not only force first letter in the sentence to be capital, it forces it to be from main layout, so when I type a russian word it tries to start it from english letter!12:33
Arkenoiand if you backspace it and try again, it does it again!12:33
dm8tbrmhm, sounds like something that's not only N950 specific, so let's hope someone reports it on the internal tracker12:35
dm8tbryeah, the workaround I use is: space + letter12:35
dm8tbror was it randomletter, real letter, delete first letter12:35
Arkenoidm8tbr, I wonder why autocapitalization seems to be desired default behavior to whoever writes the mobile phone product requirements :-/12:38
dm8tbrwhoever writes the spec, doesn't use the product12:39
* artemma suddenly figured that his timed-related code.. works as it should12:39
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artemmaIs there some qml component that shows app title on top (for harmattan at least). Or do all the system applications (e.g. Notes, Mail, Messaging) draw it on their own?13:00
KaadlajkArkenoi: settings -> time and language -> text input -> tick off auto-capitalization13:02
Kaadlajkoh wait that was swype setting13:02
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ajalkaneartemma: there is not13:17
artemmafunny :)13:17
artemmaok, got it13:17
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vladestwhere in qtcreator insert long description of the p[acket?14:33
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grivladest: Projects -> Run configuration -> "create package" details, choose "control" in the combobox and "edit"14:46
griOr open qtc_packaging/debian_harmattan/control in your file tree14:46
vladestgri: thanks14:47
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nibbleris there currently any way to sync contacts in harmattan other than bluetooth and the ovi service?15:25
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djszapihi SpeedEvil15:29
djszapiSpeedEvil: user interaction is not a good defense against security things, I realized (at least yet)15:29
djszapisince you can just use xresponse.15:30
djszapiso just one additional line to the exploit program.15:30
SpeedEvilExactly - which is why either a code, or a credentials review, or some sort of 'yes this is really a system message' LED is needed.15:31
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djszapiyou cannot review all the codes in a store, it is just impossible.15:31
SpeedEvilor credentials15:32
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SpeedEvilAegis helps lots with this15:32
djszapinot really.15:32
SpeedEvilIn principle, with a fine-grained set of credentials.15:33
djszapiaegis will not detect a high rate number in the low-level code.15:33
artemmanibbler: I sync contacts using Mail For Exchange. With Google Contacts in my case. Should work even better with Exchange15:33
djszapiSpeedEvil: credentials are not just the part of the story.15:33
djszapiyou /do/ need to know  what an application request and /why/. That works only from code.15:34
SpeedEvilErr - no.15:34
SpeedEvilYou have a game. Its description does not mention SMS. Its startup screen does not mention SMS. It requests the SMS credential.15:34
djszapiwhat would actually eb a rather trivial solution is to limit xresponse15:34
SpeedEvilThat should be a straightforward 'deny' for ovi-store15:34
djszapiand all this hazzle would be go away since normal user does not need xresponse anyways.15:35
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, attackers will not make such a trivial mistake, they are much smarter.15:35
* DocScrutinizer shouts "WAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!" and runs out15:35
SpeedEvilLimiting the attack surface is a positive.15:35
SpeedEvilNot having to worry about all apps doing SMS is a plus.15:36
SpeedEvilAnyway - I'm busy at the moment filling in a huge long form that has to be done by tomorrow, and I think we've gone over this before.15:36
* SpeedEvil waves.15:36
djszapiit is not that simple at all, plus SMS is not the only surface attack.15:36
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djszapiwhat would actually really make sense is to check out the GSM (or whatever protocol, standard) for features, like whether or not it can return proper logic for a high rate call, even if it is configured in a long list.15:37
SpeedEvilOf course not. My basic starting point would be that ubnless an app explains eitehr on its descripton or on its splash-screen why it needs a capabiltiy, it doesn't get it, if it asks for it.15:37
SpeedEvildjszapi: It can't.15:37
djszapiyou will /never really ever/ be able to detect those attacks without looking into the low-level code.15:38
SpeedEvilIf the app does not have the SMS credential, it can't do it, which removes that attack.15:38
djszapiI am not speaking about that case at all, not even from the beginning.15:38
SpeedEvilSure - SMS apps would need to be more carefully reviewed.15:38
djszapiI am speaking about absolutely more hidden attacks where you need to check the low-level code.15:39
SpeedEvilBut costs of things vary with country - what's free in some cases may cost thousands of dollars in another.15:39
djszapi2 "simple" ways would exist to filter them out and I told both above.15:39
SpeedEvilThe point of aegis is not having to check the code.15:39
djszapiwell, as I said, there are gazillion other situations where "apps would need to be more carefully reviewed.".15:39
djszapiyou cannot put it that simple, it is much more difficult issue than that.15:39
djszapieither you need a case by case /good/ logic (ie.: GSM standard provided logic, if any and the like) or you can quite decently defend by having xresponse shutted up.15:40
DocScrutinizerisn't that what we toldya some days ago, in epic length, to explain to you why automatic QA at OVI never can work?15:40
SpeedEvilThere is _NO_ mechanism in the GSM standard to do this. There is no mechanism in the tcp/ip standard to do this.15:41
djszapithat was a bullshit, so is it still15:41
* SpeedEvil waves to the ignored person.15:41
djszapiwould never really trust in a store, where I am said: "Ohh do not panic, humans will review all the low-level code for you".15:41
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djszapithat is just plain wrong.15:42
djszapiSpeedEvil: your statement is also false, you could have a configuration file after all at any rate.15:42
berndhswhether it's humans or AI or something else, something will get past the testing15:42
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djszapiberndhs: actualyl exactly the opposite, what the purpose is.15:42
djszapi1) Having well-defined logic case by case 2) Having good APIs, services for proper interaction (where of course, xresponse is shutted up).15:43
DocScrutinizerfsck code review, it's about nderstanding the *MEANING* of plain text descriptions15:44
djszapiplain text description :D :D :D15:44
DocScrutinizerof course you can check code for QsendSMS() calls automatically - but you'll never find out if that app is *meant* to send an SMS15:44
djszapimade my day =)15:45
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macmaNhas anyone manged to connect to BT DUN with beta 2?15:52
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macmaNblueman isnt able to send file to phone either15:57
macmaNgnome-bluetooth tells me "unable to find service record"15:59
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ArkenoiI really miss Mussorgsky. And Hermes. And many other n900 programs.16:18
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snowponganyone know how the audio routing works on meego/harmattan?16:23
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DocScrutinizerArkenoi: actually a Nine (Nine Is Not an Emulator) to run genuine N900 apps on harmattan, that would be an awesome idea16:24
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DocScrutinizersnowpong: javispedro might have an idea how it works16:25
snowpongDocScrutinizer: ok, I'll ping him once he is around16:25
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snowpongon a slightly similar topic, anyone played with ResourceSet in libresourceqt1? I'm a bit insure on how to properly react to resourceLost resourceReleased and resourceReleasdByManager16:40
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: hi16:58
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crevetorHello there17:59
crevetorDocScrutinizer: Just read your post on fmc17:59
npmi saw a n9/50 demo that had a map application that allowed twisting the map with a two finger rotation gesture18:02
npmis there code for this twisting rotation container for maps?18:02
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snowpongjavispedro: a bird told me you might know the audio routing/mixing system on Harmattan?18:11
javispedrowhat part of it?18:12
SpeedEvilsnowpong: Was it an angry bird?18:12
javispedroas a starting point, the center of all of it is pulseaudio.18:12
leinirpah. birds don't get angry, they get even *nods* ;)18:12
snowpongjavispedro: I'm having issues syncing an in-app volume slider to be in sync with the "global" pink one you get when enabling AudioResources("player")18:12
* javispedro feels déjà vu18:13
snowpongjavispedro: I could ofcourse just remove the internal one18:13
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snowpongat the moment we're streaming through gstreamer, so we're setting the volume on the playbin18:13
javispedroyou should try not to change the volume on the playbin, as that probably changes the one in the PA stream18:14
snowpongjavispedro: ok, so leave that one alone18:14
javispedro(and ideally policy manager should do that...)18:14
javispedroso what you want do? =)18:15
snowpongjavispedro: ideally, be able to read the volume value18:16
javispedroif you want to read something that makes sense from a programmatic point of view, you want to view your stream's currently associated sink volume level in PA18:16
javispedroif you just want to read something that is user visible, there's a D-Bus service named com.meego.MainVolume iirc18:17
javispedrothere might be a class for this in qtmobility systeminfo..... should be a pretty common thing18:18
javispedrocom.Nokia.MainVolume1 , although seems it is closed source too =(18:20
javispedroand it seems to use its own d-bus socket so that's out of the question.18:24
javispedrohm... this is entering the "it's an interesting question" territory.18:24
snowpongjavispedro: hmm, when I use the volume keys and crank it to max (pink top-slider full) my own slider inside the app (reflecting gstreamer/playbin volume) still has a bit before it's maxed out18:24
snowpongjavispedro: so I'm wondering if they represent different mixing stages18:25
npmtry running alsamixer -c 0 and see what your alsa values are at18:25
snowpongnpm: thanks18:25
javispedrosnowpong: playbin gets the volume of the PA stream18:25
javispedrogets/sets actually18:26
npmindependent of pulse. perhaps the main volume isn't set to max?18:26
javispedronpm: alsa values are complete lies, PA even mutes them sometimes18:26
javispedro(until there's an actual non-corked stream)18:26
npmit's actually the other way around18:26
npmpulse is complete lies18:26
npmalsa is what's actually set18:26
javispedronot from the user point of view.18:26
npmthe user isn't what the CPU cares about18:26
javispedrobut as said, ALSA values are _muted_ when there are no uncorked streams for ex.18:27
javispedromakes sense from the hw point of view, you want to turn off the DAC to avoid hissing noise18:27
npmseems like a bug?18:27
javispedro(and save power)18:27
javispedrowhat the user understand as the current device volume is the current default pulseaudio sink volume18:28
npmanyways that was just a suggestion as to why there might be a discrepancy18:28
npmi don't have time for a pulse/alsa flaemwar :-)18:28
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javispedroit's not a flamewar, I dislike pulse.18:28
npmthen we're on the same team :-)18:28
npmi dislike pulse more than you dislike aegis :-)18:29
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snowpongjavispedro: hehe, read the aegis thread today btw :D18:29
javispedroit's quite easy to get it from pulse, I'm just pondering if Qt does not offer an abstrated way to do it because it's large number of lines of code (get pulse stream handle, get sink for that stream, introspect, get volume for that sink...)18:30
npm?? ??18:31
* javispedro can guess why that happens...18:32
javispedroeither way18:33
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npmdoes anybody know how to prevent a MouseArea on a map (e.g. for scrolling) from binding events that would go to MapMouseArea regions?18:35
npmputting a mousearea on my map prevents my MapMouseArea icons/buttons/etc from firing18:36
npmwhich kills my menu implementation18:36
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npmif i have to bind a single toplevel MouseArea ontop of my map, is there a way to ask is there a MapImage or MapText at this event location?18:37
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* javispedro fails to understand why pulseaudio actually implements its own server18:40
javispedro*d-bus server18:40
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Andy80hi all18:44
Andy80I've updated the icon of my project, but the debian/control was not updated by QtCreator... how can I force it to update that file reflecting the new icon?18:44
javispedro$ dbus-send --print-reply --address=unix:path=/var/run/pulse/dbus-socket --des18:44
javispedrot=com.Nokia.MainVolume1 /com/meego/mainvolume1 org.freedesktop.DBus.Properties.G18:44
javispedroetAll string:com.Nokia.MainVolume118:44
javispedrosorry =)18:44
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Sazpaimon well that didn't take very long18:46
snowpongjavispedro: hm, it seems to remember by default the apps volume till next launch, seen this? is it a feature?18:48
javispedroPA feature18:48
snowponghow does it tell? stream name, pid, name of binary?18:48
snowpongthanks :)18:52
SazpaimonI wonder if this seller can sell me all the N9 parts18:55
Sazpaimonthen i can just put it together myself18:55
Sazpaimonhis store only has the outer casing and the flex cable18:56
SpeedEvilGenerally speaking, you never, ever see phone mainboards on spares sites.18:56
SpeedEvilAt least, from 'new' sites - there are sites that get them by ripping apart old phones18:57
* DocScrutinizer recently pondered - in a silly moment - to build a N900 from scratch, on a bare PCB with all the chips and birdseed, then placing that into a chinese white N900 case18:59
DocScrutinizerwondered if it would be feasible at all, and if it was <1000€ or more to get all the parts19:00
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DocScrutinizerstart here:
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Without the modem - maybe19:02
DocScrutinizer:nod: might be hard to get RAPUYAMA BB5 chips on the component market19:03
DocScrutinizerthe particular SoC with POP also may be not exactly easy to get19:04
DocScrutinizerGAIA as well19:04
SpeedEvilThe compatible (AIUI) SoC and PMU are available on digikey I think19:05
SpeedEvilPOP isn't19:05
DocScrutinizerwell, I'd not be averse to use a POP with e.g. 1GB of RAM ;-D19:06
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SpeedEvilI vaguely recall finding one on microns site19:08
SpeedEvilBut they never got back to me when I requested a datasheet19:08
SpeedEvilAnd obtaining it would be ... challenging19:08
SpeedEvilIn addition, it had no NAND, so ...19:08
SpeedEvilI'm unsure if the SoC will boot in that condition from MMC19:08
SpeedEvilI suspect not19:08
DocScrutinizererr, I *think* the rom-bl will check mmc-if0 first, then try NAND19:09
DocScrutinizeror was it xloader that did this, and xloader is small enough to live in a mini NAND (or NOR?) on SoC?19:10
SpeedEvilFrom what I remember - steppingstone is a 40K rom bootloader19:10
SpeedEvilI don't recall anything of what it does19:11
DocScrutinizer>>The internal ROM Code will attempt to boot from several different peripherals including but not limited to: Serial(UART3), SD Card(MMC1 and MMC2), Nand and USB. <<19:14
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Andy80a very noob question: once I've built a package and I'm subscribed to OVI Store... how do I upload the .deb to the store?19:20
DocScrutinizerhmmm indeed, makes you ponder all sorts of ideas19:20
DocScrutinizerAndy80: an even better question would be: "where is this documented?" (as I have no idea either how the whole OVI store thing works, though I tried to find out about it, for some 5 minutes)19:22
Andy80DocScrutinizer: :D19:22
javispedro ;)19:22
Andy80DocScrutinizer: yeah... but changing question doesn't help anyway ;)19:22
DocScrutinizerjavispedro helps, as usual :-)))19:23
snowpongAndy80: first you make a content item (and app with a name and image and all that jazz), then you upload a file to that content item19:24
snowpongs/and app/an app/g19:24
infobotsnowpong meant: Andy80: first you make a content item (an app with a name and image and all that jazz), then you upload a file to that content item19:24
Andy80snowpong: thank you, now I try :)19:24
DocScrutinizerhmm Verisign root cert expired some hours ago19:25
snowpongAndy80: lots of small snags and traps to fall into, have patience for your first one :)19:28
Anssi138where can i tweak harmattan dbus timeouts?19:33
snowpongAndy80: <- some more info19:33
Anssi138or something, i am valgrinding app but doesn't get any result if valgrinding. i guess it might be related in dbus19:34
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Andy80snowpong: ok... now I only have to wait for an email from OVI team that tell me if it's right or not?19:39
DocScrutinizerBS, Nokia once again is assuming everybody is born with a credit card19:40
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Andy80DocScrutinizer: yep :)19:42
berndhsthe internet, as ubiquitous as paying your monthly bills19:44
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snowpongAndy80: yes, and don't wait up - sometimes it can take a week sometimes a day, sometimes a month19:56
snowpongDocScrutinizer: better than spotify now assuming all have a facebook login19:56
DocScrutinizerno idea what's spotify19:58
Andy80snowpong: and every time I need to fix something I need to wait another couple of weeks :P ?!19:58
grior you do a feed app which seems to get waved through the QA (there is none?) :P19:59
snowpongAndy80: probably a bit faster, but yes, and update will also go through some QA stuff20:10
snowpong"an update" I mean20:10
DocScrutinizerCheck key requirements that your content must meet  For the latest, official guidelines on appropriatecontent and technical requirements, go to:20:12
DocScrutinizerReview these guidelines carefully and on a regular basis to understand our requirements.20:12
snowpongDocScrutinizer: basically just says, don't do porn, don't insult anyone or anything, don't do lottery stuff etc20:13
DocScrutinizerhowever to access these guidelines, you have to pay to Nokia first (register which needs payment of the registration fee)20:13
griDocScrutinizer: Which is 1 € :)20:14
DocScrutinizerso id I want to develop a lottery app for OVI store, I have to register and pay for that, to learn that I wasted that money as I'm not allowed to sell lottery apps?20:14
DocScrutinizergri: I don't care if it's 1€, 1ct, or 1kBuks. It's a ripoff20:14
griIt's just for identity check I think20:15
DocScrutinizerso WHY THE FLYING F*CK would I need to identify to read their friggin ????20:16
snowpongcan't be accessed?20:16
javispedroDocScrutinizer: note that registration shall be free for you20:16
javispedroDocScrutinizer: as a member of the #n950club20:17
DocScrutinizersorry, I'm upset20:17
DocScrutinizersnowpong: yes, this one works20:17
DocScrutinizerwhere from you got that URL?20:18
javispedro(under Fremantle app publishing rules:) "The application must launch in two seconds or less" whoa20:19
snowpongDocScrutinizer: first link there20:19
DocScrutinizermeh, so some fool got the wrong URL into that paper at
DocScrutinizerwhich btw is a link labeled "Nokia Publisher Documentation (pdf)" on
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: and this doc has no info on how to get registered without paying that 1€ via credit card20:24
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: where from is your info that it's free for n950club?20:25
alteregoI've never heard of free ovi subscription ..20:25
javispedroI've heard it two times20:26
DocScrutinizerand is there additional info on how it's supposed to work to get registered for free?20:26
javispedroone during the Barcelona Long Weeked for Barcelona, and another time somewhere on the Launchpad docs20:26
javispedros/for Barcelona/for the N900/20:26
infobotjavispedro meant: one during the Barcelona Long Weeked for the N900, and another time somewhere on the Launchpad docs20:26
javispedroboth were promises of free Ovi registration for Maemo/Meego devs...20:27
javispedrore Maemo one, (probably already deprecated by now...)20:27
javispedrocan't find the launchpad one, but I'm quite sure I saw some mention of that while I was reading all the paperware there.20:30
snowpongjavispedro: when registering now for (or whatever the link is now) do they require a credit card?20:33
javispedroI've not tried.20:34
snowpongjavispedro: just try, if you manage to greate one I think you can just send a mail to ovipublishsupport saying "I'd like free publishing account and need uids/certificates" and you'll get it20:34
* snowpong doesn't remember paying20:35
DocScrutinizer    p10 >> 5. Click a credit card type: MasterCard, Diners club, Visa Electron, Visa, or American Express.<<20:35
snowpongalso, giving bank credentials is only required when publishing non-free apps20:35
javispedro(not that I'm interested)20:35
javispedroif doesn't materialize i'll just blow the dust off reprepro.20:36
javispedroit's funny that both topics in #meego and #harmattan seem to be app stores...20:38 is supposed to sign apps with a genuine Nokia key?20:38
DocScrutinizerCBA to even ask that on FMC20:40
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RST38hWhen someone swipes your app down to quit it, what even is your Qt code getting???20:57
Sazpaimoni thought swiping down sends it to the background20:58
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hiemanshuRST38h: I think a closeEvent()20:59
RST38hMhm, does not work for some reason...well, ok, will add printfs20:59
javispedrodon't really remember, but from an X11 point of view it's a pseudo-unstandard minimize event21:00
javispedro*remember what Qt does21:00
Sazpaimonwait, isnt there a setting to change the behavior of slide down to close instead of minimize?21:01
DocScrutinizerprolly same as swipe-left|right|up21:01
javispedroI completely misread the question =)21:02
* javispedro should go outside for a while21:02
Sazpaimonis that setting even going to make it in the final firmware21:02
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: o/ enjoy21:02
hiemanshuSazpaimon: yes21:02
hiemanshujavispedro: pseudo-unstandard what21:03
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javispedrohiemanshu: technically the window should be unmapped...21:04
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javispedrobut, cya21:04
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RST38hheya javispedro and cya21:05
griSazpaimon: Theres "SwipeManager" in ovi store to configure all four sides21:06
Sazpaimonthasts pretty cool i guess21:08
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npmomg a jumbo n950 :-)
hiemanshulooks nice21:18
hiemanshubut android :/21:18
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mzanettisome time ago I stumbled over some docs on how to create an accounts-plugin for harmattan... I just can't find it any more...21:45
mzanettianyone knows where that is?21:45
grimzanetti: What exactly are you trying? I've created a half one :)21:45
mzanettigri: I wanted to look into how much work it is to create an accounts-plugin for jabber21:46
mzanettiall it should take are some QML files I guess21:46
mzanettigiven that chatting using jabber already works21:46
griaccounts-ui is from nokia and therefore mtf and not qml21:46
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mzanettigri: but still Qt, right?21:47
griYes, but that has not much to do with it21:47
grithe mtf version implements very much but has very little documentation21:47
mzanettigri: anyways... I don' mind writing C/C++... It's only the login screen and some little other details to provide21:48
griSo jabber should be realizable out of the box by creating some .provider and .service files21:48
mzanettiyeah... I have it running21:48
griI have not understood this and created a qml gui for my accounts :)21:48
hiemanshumzanetti: its in the dev library, under meego21:49
mzanettiso far I have only added my jabber account using mc-tool21:49
hiemanshucant remember the exact place though21:49
griI was a little bit in contact with the guy who wrote the accounts-ui until he resigned from nokia :/21:50
gri(good sign :P)21:50
grilibaccounts-ui is opensource but still strange21:51
mzanettihiemanshu: I only could find the said links to the source code in the developer library... no real docs.21:51
mzanettihiemanshu: iirc it was something with "beta" in the url back then21:52
mzanettilol... at least there are ui guidelines for it:
hiemanshuits also a part of Qt Creator if you have the documentation installed21:54
griI've never found this documentation somewhere else ..21:55
mzanettigri: oh yeah... thats the text... thanks21:56
grimzanetti: The .service file should be enaugh to setup a telepathy service21:56
grierm account21:56
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mzanettigri: some time ago I had found this exact docs in a real docs website... labeled "beta" though21:57
hiemanshumzanetti: MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan beta docs, yes, they are off the Forum Nokia library, you can still find them in Qt Creator though21:59
mzanettihiemanshu: oh! now I see...22:00
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grimzanetti: The facebook chat is also using jabber22:01
griso you could simply copy the files22:01
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mzanettigri: yep, I'll try that22:09
griI just tried and got the ui up but ends with "account storing undefined"22:09
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MohammadAGif only someone could port mappero :/22:27
mzanettigri: how do you get the services to be reloaded?22:29
mzanettiI have deleted the picasa service and rebooted the device... still here but mine doesn't appear22:30
grimzanetti: .service files are the backend, .provider files are what you see in "accounts"22:30
griif you don't add a provider file for gtalk, you won't see anything22:30
mzanettigri: d'oh22:30
mzanettigri: thanks :)22:30
grino need to reboot22:30
griGah, sometimes qt-components REALLY suck! So much code only to get the text I currently see on my screen while typing:
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TSCHAKeeedamn, the N9 has been remarked as "unavailable" on amazon.22:42
berndhsTSCHAKeee: they probably sold both available units22:47
TSCHAKeeethis really is one big insult22:48
berndhsit's a shame22:48
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fralsgri: doesnt TextArea have platformPreedit.text available without all that hackery?22:48
sivanghi all22:48
grifrals: I need the position which is not exposed22:48
sivangI want to develop an N9 app with qt, that needs a web service backend. What would be a good choice?22:49
sivangis Django easy enough for that?22:49
sivangIs there anywhere an example for such for a rating mechanism that could be available from the handset?22:49
fralsgri: position of what?22:49
grifrals: Position of the preedit22:49
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grifrals: As long as the user is typing and the word is "underlined", the word is not contained in TextArea.text22:50
fralsyes, the word is in platformPreedit in that case22:50
griright, and I want the text like the users sees it on his/her screen22:50
grimeans TextArea.text + preedit at the correct position22:51
fralsand cursorPosition is not the correct position i guess?22:51
griuhm :)22:52
grias I told in the post: there might be better solutions :D22:52
griI've overseen that alias22:52
fralsthe whole js function to find the inputmethodobserver seems a bit overkill to me ;)22:53
fralssince you have cursorPosition + platformPreedit.text :)22:53
griatleast I've shown I know some js :P22:54
fralshehe, yeah22:54
griwill fix the code/post22:54
frals(working with qt-components daily ive become used to hacking around with component.children and component.resource ;))22:55
gristrange, with changing to the alias the output is wrong :/22:57
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griShould not code after drinking beer ...22:59
grifrals: Thank you for pointing that out, it works now23:02
fralsgri: happy to help :)23:02
fralsgri: for the record, try avoid javascripts in your components, they are memory and performance hogs :-)23:02
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grifrals: I do most things in c++ when possible ... since you're there, any idea about that?
fralsgri: not really sure what you are after there... getting a bit tired over here ;)23:05
grifrals: I have a QContact instance in my c++ backend and since QtMobility has a QDeclarativeContact I'm looking for a way to create an instance of QDeclarativeContact with my QContact and give this to qml23:06
griIf qml is as cool as advertised, this should be possible23:07
griotherwise it's plain hell to mix c++ and qml :)23:07
TSCHAKeeehow so?23:09
TSCHAKeeewe do it all the time with our software23:09
TSCHAKeeeit's the only way we could ever do it.23:09
fralsgri: just create the QDeclContact using the neat constructor taking a qcontact and export it to qml?23:10
TSCHAKeeeonce you understand how properties are passed back and forth between C++ and QML, the rest is just cake.23:10
grifrals: The class is not exported nor in any public api23:10
fralsoh it was _p.h23:10
griTSCHAKeee: there is no QMetaObject information on the functions I'm interested in23:10
TSCHAKeeeso make some.23:11
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fralsgri: not sure if qdeclarativecontact was designed to be used by a c++ backend tbh23:11
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gridoesn't help me since I can't replace QtMobility on device :)23:11
grifrals: They have the functions and they do exactly what I want in their code23:11
* w00t is still confused about what you're trying to do23:12
fralsyeah totally confused now23:12
fralsguess its time to go to bed, im suppose to shoot my colleagues tomorrow \o/23:13
* w00t heads off to bed too23:13
fralsgnite and good luck gri ;)23:13
griI just want to use the setContact() function of QDeclarativeContact23:13
grifrals: thanks23:13
MohammadAGanyone need a hebrew keyboard layout?23:15
griIf you teach me hebrew :)23:15
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: got a new N900?23:26
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, N900?23:26
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: or just a layout that matches your dream keymat?23:26
MohammadAGwhy? I have 2 already23:26
* DocScrutinizer glances at N950's keys and decides they are easy to relable but it will be fuggly as hell23:28
DocScrutinizerand kills backlight23:28
DocScrutinizeraaaaah vkbd :-D23:29
DocScrutinizercool stuff23:29
DocScrutinizerget it into OVI, $0.99 ;-D23:30
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, too late
MohammadAGsivang, you might like that ^23:31
DocScrutinizerwhy too late? Aren't you allowed to sell apps in OVI that have been published elsewhere previously?23:32
MohammadAGit took me 5 minutes to do23:33
MohammadAGI'm not sure I should profit from that23:33
MohammadAGprofit, ha, nice word, I doubt I'd get one sale anyway23:33
DocScrutinizeror is Nokia asking for money when you publish an app at OVI, regardless of the number of sales23:33
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I *bet* you'll get at least 50 sales, as soon as N9 rolls out23:34
DocScrutinizereven if Nokia ships N9 with a proper hebrew keymap ;-)23:35
TSCHAKeeethat's $5023:35
TSCHAKeeehey, that's a night of beer23:35
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DocScrutinizeractually there might be users out there who prefer buying at OVI rather than getting it for free, so they know they own it and you got rewarded, or sth along that reasoning23:36
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, doesn't look like it, they took out arabic23:36
MohammadAGin 34-223:36
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sivangMohammadAG: dude!23:37
sivangMohammadAG: is it available on pub ?23:37
DocScrutinizerthink of it as a convenient way for users to donate23:37
MohammadAGsivang, not yet, it's just a tar.gz23:37
sivangMohammadAG: how did you create the layout?23:37
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MohammadAGsivang, it's a simple XML file23:37
sivangMohammadAG: ah I see. I see you have too much free time, are teachers in Mechina not bad enough? :)23:38
sivangMohammadAG: but OMGs you just made me happy, I have been looking for this23:38
MohammadAGsivang, it's only hebrew for now23:38
sivangMohammadAG: what about Arabic?23:38
MohammadAGso I'm free till we start Physics and stuff23:38
sivangMohammadAG: oh, what are you studying now? or is it for the holidays?23:39
MohammadAGsivang, that was in 22-6
MohammadAGsivang, Hebrew till 16/1023:39
sivangMohammadAG: so hebrew science writing? I hated this course.. So damn boring23:39
sivangMohammadAG: I wonder if I'll know some of your teachers :)23:40
MohammadAGsivang, just hebrew language23:40
sivangMohammadAG: I meant for Physics and math. I hope you enjoy your stay in Haifa though23:40
MohammadAGI think this should go in PM btw, a bit off topic here :p23:40
sivangtrue! :)23:40
sivangbut makes all think this is really a cozy channel23:40
sivangfull of love of community23:40
DocScrutinizernothing is OT until somebody complains23:41
DocScrutinizeror channel gets so flooded that complaints would go unheard anyway23:41
TSCHAKeee. o O (at least abill_uk hasn't discovered IRC...or this channel...)23:42
MohammadAGsomeone should work on that23:42
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*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +b abill_uk*!*@*23:43
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sivangso fellas, can someone recommend a ready made backend for storing data from handset on to the web?23:52
sivangI must have the backend before I start testing a QtQuick client on the handset.23:53
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, NOOO23:54
DocScrutinizersivang: sync to Nokia account?23:56
DocScrutinizersivang: or simply scp23:56
sivangDocScrutinizer: nahh, I need somewhere to store counts of stuff23:56
DocScrutinizeryou lost me23:57
sivangDocScrutinizer: as a model I have been checking out Django but surely something must be available ready made.23:57
sivangDocScrutinizer: like, imagine I am counting cars in a stree, and I want to store the count to a server with a db somewhere on the internet through 3G data23:57
DocScrutinizerFSCK! rapes my PC's CPU23:59

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