IRC log of #harmattan for Wednesday, 2011-09-21

* javispedro is starting to attach to harm...		00:00
DocScrutinizer	mee-too	00:00
MohammadAG	javispedro	00:01
javispedro	specially now that all of my little fixes are starting to work right =)	00:01
MohammadAG	you can get whether data through the API	00:01
MohammadAG	lemme PM this	00:01
DocScrutinizer	meh, I still hate the concept, the hardware, the perspectives, and last not least the mindset	00:01
DocScrutinizer	plus it started with screwing all those that were told meego was the legit successor of maemo fremantle (buzzword "how I learned to love the bomb", one-click-recompile-run-everywhere. A bunch of lies)	00:04
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DocScrutinizer	a few hours ago I stumbled across http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Maemo/ and thought "Oh my, how much remaining of all this nice stuff on harmattan. :-S"	00:08
javispedro	all of it?	00:08
DocScrutinizer	orly?	00:09
DocScrutinizer	>>The Maemo™ platform, first introduced in 2005 on Nokia Internet Tablet devices, realises a vision to bring PC-like features and user experiences to mobile devices.<<	00:09
javispedro	that page excludes virtually anything from the non-qt maemo, which is what I miss most...	00:09
DocScrutinizer	PC-alike features? FAIL. PC-alike user experience? FAIL	00:09
javispedro	so	00:10
javispedro	what's not PC-alike from it?	00:10
javispedro	and don't say landscapeness.	00:10
DocScrutinizer	>>Based on well known open-source Linux components<<? FAIL. All you knew about linux, forget it as now there's aegis	00:10
javispedro	er.. portraitness.	00:10
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DocScrutinizer	c'mon even my 30bucks mp3 player is more PC-like than HARM. It at least knows about the concept of a filesystem and a directory tree	00:13
* javispedro sighs		00:13
javispedro	you are talking with the wrong person here then	00:13
ieatlint	actually most pc music players don't do a directory tree for playback	00:13
javispedro	I grown up with PalmOS, and learned C with PalmOS, so..	00:13
ieatlint	and are in fact more like the harmattan music player	00:14
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: I don't give a sht, as my PC music player has an explicit inport of FILES* or whole DIRS to the local database, while on HARM there's obviously a general concept of hiding dir tree from user, no matter if in mediaplayer, or storing backups or whatever. A concept that already failed boldly on iOS as for e.g mail attachments you get into conduit hell or any other insane pathological state of mind when ignoring such a basic	00:17
DocScrutinizer	concept as directories and fs	00:17
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: the problem was obvios even back on palmpilot 3	00:18
ieatlint	sounds like you have a bone to pick that would be best solved with a blunt object and a plane ticket to espoo	00:19
ieatlint	i'll chip in $20	00:19
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javispedro	either way, I usually see only two problems when you got the soup of files approach	00:21
javispedro	a) how you react to unknown extensions	00:21
javispedro	b) applications' tendency to forget about things like the "add attachment" button, upload file in HTML forms, etc.	00:21
DocScrutinizer	never knew on unix were any extensions actually	00:21
rm_work	they're mostly convention IIRC	00:22
rm_work	like using myscript.sh	00:22
rm_work	or else they are for compatibility	00:22
rm_work	but i think convention/readability is the real reason (you're correct, there isn't really a technical reason	00:22
javispedro	and, funniliy enough, browser doesn't allow me to upload files, and mail's add attachments dialog doesn't list unknown extensions	00:23
javispedro	STRIKE TWO!!!	00:23
DocScrutinizer	wich clearly poves those apps been developed by msdos converts	00:24
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ieatlint	this appears like some sort of pseudo-religious war	00:25
DocScrutinizer	who had a fuzzy understanding of unix fundamental concepts	00:25
ieatlint	harmattan isn't unix	00:25
ieatlint	and never was meant to be	00:25
ieatlint	it's not sysv even	00:25
* sp3000 doesn't follow the msdos angle		00:26
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DocScrutinizer	evidently	00:26
ieatlint	it's running all sorts of crazy custom things, with aegis being my only real headache	00:26
ieatlint	file extensions are a well used bit of meta data that many average users understand, and it's incredibly small and easy to implement	00:26
SpeedEvil	Apparantly, there is a vulnerability on the N9 introduced by NFC.	00:27
DocScrutinizer	I'm concerned about that trackerd abomination and the attached concept almost as much as about aegis	00:27
ieatlint	the n900 was for geeks, the n9 is for consumers	00:27
SpeedEvil	Touch the n9 to RMS, and aegis explodes.	00:27
javispedro	the entire N9 explodes, via RFC.	00:27
ieatlint	hmmm, RMS isn't that far away from me	00:27
ieatlint	but i don't want to touch him	00:27
ieatlint	i can just laugh at him because the most successful linux os in the world doesn't use gnu?	00:28
javispedro	like he cares about linux	00:28
ieatlint	he cares enough that he generally has a crusade to correct people in saying "it's gnu/linux"	00:29
GeneralAntilles	I don't get directory-oriented media playback.	00:29
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: (n9 for "customers") fair point, but then it's absolutely rogue to lure away the maemo folks and promise meego will be way better and the paradise and whatnot	00:29
ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: from what i recall, maemo was always supposed to be refined into a consumer phone OS...	00:29
javispedro	ieatlint: because he cares about _the part people are conveniently missing_ when referring to the entire system.	00:29
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	00:29
ieatlint	javispedro: well, hurd will be here any day now	00:30
ieatlint	and then the party really begins	00:30
javispedro	nice escape way, eh?	00:30
javispedro	criticising the lack of progress in hurd is a nice thing to do.	00:30
ieatlint	haha	00:30
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ieatlint	more like making fun of the OS version of vaporware	00:30
faenil	good evening everyone :P	00:30
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: <DocScrutinizer> >>The Maemo™ platform, first introduced in 2005 on Nokia Internet Tablet devices, realises a vision to bring PC-like features and user experiences to mobile devices.<<	00:30
DocScrutinizer	vs <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: from what i recall, maemo was always supposed to be refined into a consumer phone OS...	00:31
ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: yeah, it's not the word of god written there, it's a page written by a guy in marketing who was given a memo	00:31
DocScrutinizer	aha, so I shall GFO as that marketing guy has written shit and you always knew maemo was meant to become a consumer phone OS? Thanks!	00:32
ieatlint	heh, not trying to claim some sort of extra knowledge here	00:33
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DocScrutinizer	and that's not "some guy writing shit from a memo" that is THE official Nokia page about maemo5	00:33
ieatlint	and maemo5 wasn't intended to be for the average consumer	00:34
ieatlint	the n9 was	00:34
DocScrutinizer	so what?	00:34
MohammadAG	http://i51.tinypic.com/28u7k7k.jpg gtalk :P	00:34
DocScrutinizer	<DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: (n9 for "customers") fair point, but then it's absolutely rogue to lure away the maemo folks and promise meego will be way better and the paradise and whatnot	00:34
ieatlint	yeah, well, that's a personal opinion on whether it was an improvement	00:35
sp3000	MohammadAG: goog goog!	00:35
ieatlint	i feel it was	00:35
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: don't start with meego.	00:35
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: harmattan is maemo.	00:35
DocScrutinizer	MUHAHAHAHA	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	harmattan is an idiot bastad son	00:35
MohammadAG	gmail doesn't work though, keeps asking for pass	00:36
ieatlint	i like the UI a lot better	00:36
ieatlint	MohammadAG: how'd you manage that? :)	00:36
ieatlint	am curious about the skype support as well	00:36
DocScrutinizer	you're free to do that, djszapi obviously even likes android better	00:36
DocScrutinizer	others go for iOS or even winP7	00:37
DocScrutinizer	but it's not a legit successor of maemo	00:37
ieatlint	well, i'll grant you that much of what i saw as maemo is not in harmattan	00:38
DocScrutinizer	and there are zillion of devel folks that never get tired to tell us it was	00:38
ieatlint	and much of what i saw in meego as well	00:38
ieatlint	it's a bastard child, but that doesn't mean it's crap	00:38
* javispedro fails to see _anything_ from meego on it.		00:38
sp3000	javispedro: the word meego?	00:39
DocScrutinizer	as much as a vehicle being a bulldozer doesn't mean it's crap compared to a Porsche	00:39
javispedro	sp3000: where?	00:39
javispedro	hidden between three stacks of pages in the settings about screen?	00:39
ieatlint	if your point is to say that they both serve different purposes quite well, then sure...	00:40
sp3000	yeah probably in an about screen	00:40
DocScrutinizer	but when I bought a bulldozer I won't need or want a porsche to do the same job with that one	00:40
DocScrutinizer	and when I'm a Porsche driver I won't want a bulldozer to drive the highway with it	00:40
DocScrutinizer	3rd time: [2011-09-20 23:34:35] <DocScrutinizer> <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: (n9 for "customers") fair point, but then it's absolutely rogue to lure away the maemo folks and promise meego will be way better and the paradise and whatnot	00:41
ieatlint	yeah, and i disagree :P	00:42
DocScrutinizer	hell, if N9/HARM was the first "maemo" device then you know I'd have frowned at it and happily bought an iPhone instead	00:42
javispedro	you'd miss messybox =)	00:43
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ieatlint	you can still do that	00:43
DocScrutinizer	I got N810 and N900 because I had a urgent deire for a linux phone/palmtop, not for a "custom customer aegis phone OS"	00:44
ieatlint	yeah, aegis is unfortunate, but i also understand why it's there	00:45
DocScrutinizer	hell, probably even bada and symbian were better suited than HARM for my needs	00:45
javispedro	well, I completely don't.	00:45
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: yeah, TOTALLY sure.	00:45
ieatlint	well, rumour has it bada is being opensourced	00:45
ieatlint	and having had to deal with symbian a lot lately, i don't believe that :P	00:46
ieatlint	symbian makes my eyes bleed	00:46
javispedro	++	00:46
javispedro	not to mention the feelings Bada evokes..	00:46
DocScrutinizer	well, on other rumours Nokia will eventually disclose sources for HARM-34	00:46
ieatlint	rumour also has it intel has a collaboration ongoing with samsung that will be announced next week in seattle	00:47
javispedro	while Nokia rumours are usually true, specially the most pessimist ones,	00:47
javispedro	samsung rumours have been mostly false so far	00:47
ieatlint	i'd bet money there will be a partnership between intel and samsung on an open source mobile platform other than meego	00:48
ieatlint	not sure it's bada, and i'm only 80% sure it'll be announced next week, but i'm 100% sure it's happening	00:48
javispedro	so you're talking about alp	00:48
javispedro	I severely doubt it'll go anywhere	00:48
* ieatlint shrugs		00:49
ieatlint	i've got no real details	00:49
ieatlint	but if rasterman has been in seoul for the past 18 months+ and insists he hasn't been working on bada, it certainly raises questions	00:49
MohammadAG	at some point on some device I thought Bada was android	00:49
MohammadAG	they copied everything	00:50
javispedro	ieatlint: my point is exactly that, 18+ months.	00:50
MohammadAG	then I clicked About device...	00:50
javispedro	with less and less info as the time passed	00:50
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DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: and I'd not be surprised to see the name Carsten rasterman Haitzler showing up on page one of that paper between samsung and intel	00:50
ieatlint	indeed	00:50
ieatlint	MohammadAG: so you able to talk about how you got skype and gtalk on there? :)	00:50
javispedro	that rumours sounds nowhere near pessimistic enough to be considered plausible	00:51
MohammadAG	ieatlint, N9 RDA	00:51
javispedro	in truth they will talk about android on x86 samsung devices	00:51
javispedro	or some similar crap	00:51
ieatlint	ah, nice	00:51
ieatlint	:)	00:51
javispedro	meanwhile, the only rumour I'm going to believe about Nokia in the near future is the one where Elop destroys the HQs using a giant robot version of himself	00:52
ieatlint	i'll believe all sorts of nokia rumours, just none about anything "good"	00:52
DocScrutinizer	I'm going to believe that I'm not going to contribute for the flowers when in 6 months the official Nokia funeral starts	00:53
DocScrutinizer	wait, all of his organs were recycled ind reused in a larger body, so basically he lives on there	00:54
* DocScrutinizer recalls the VMS crew developing WNT		00:56
DocScrutinizer	Nokia -> MS Opl_jb ?	00:57
ieatlint	bleh, heatwave here hitting ~31	00:59
DocScrutinizer	toss over a third of it to me, I could use it	01:00
ieatlint	average high this summer has been around 20, i'd be happy to lose a third	01:00
alterego	I wonder if there is a way to fix the signal issue with the N950	01:00
alterego	I may be imagining it but I think it's the screws that are causing the attenuation ..	01:00
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DocScrutinizer51	~weather EDDN	01:07
infobot	Nuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2011.09.20 2150 UTC; Dew Point: 46 F (8 C); Pressure (altimeter): 30.27 in. Hg (1025 hPa); Relative Humidity: 87%; Temperature: 50 F (10 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: from the ESE (110 degrees) at 7 MPH (6 KT)	01:07
GeneralAntilles	ieatlint, that's a heatwave? :P	01:07
GeneralAntilles	~weather KSPG	01:07
infobot	ST PETERSBURG WHITTED AIRPORT , FL, United States; Conditions at; last updated: Conditions at; Dew Point: 73.9 F (23.3 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.92 in. Hg (1013 hPa); Relative Humidity: 71%; Sky conditions: partly cloudy; Temperature: 84.0 F (28.9 C); Visibility: 10 mile(s); Wind: from the SSE (160 degrees) at 24 MPH (21 KT) gusting to 32 MPH (28 KT)	01:07
ieatlint	~weather KSFO	01:07
infobot	SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT , CA, United States; Conditions at; last updated: Conditions at; Dew Point: 53.1 F (11.7 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.88 in. Hg (1011 hPa); Relative Humidity: 38%; Sky conditions: mostly clear; Temperature: 81.0 F (27.2 C); Visibility: 10 mile(s); Wind: from the WNW (300 degrees) at 15 MPH (13 KT)	01:07
GeneralAntilles	Oh, SF	01:08
GeneralAntilles	Meh.	01:08
ieatlint	cooler at the airport :P	01:08
ieatlint	and yeah, 32 is a heatwave... try 32 with no air conditioning anywhere	01:08
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, no AC always cracks me up.	01:10
DocScrutinizer51	lol, AC rather uncommon here in Germany, and yet 32C not unusual in summer	01:13
DocScrutinizer51	soon it'll be average	01:13
DocScrutinizer51	maybe then AC will see a boom	01:13
Sput	I doubt that	01:14
Sput	electricity is expensive :)	01:14
berndhs	or Tambora will blow again and all this climate business will be different	01:14
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ieatlint	haha, if we all got ac units we'd completely take down the power grid	01:15
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antman8969	so I just updated the firmware and noticed that all of my dev tools are gone...	01:24
GeneralAntilles	If it ever properly snowed down here the power grid would die.	01:24
GeneralAntilles	antman8969, reenable dev mode in settings.	01:24
antman8969	aah, thanks generalantilles	01:25
Sput	oh, and while I failed downloading all the dev tools yesterday (even after repeatedly enabling the devmode), today I got an upgrade notification and the phone downloaded everything...	01:25
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javispedro	bah, without the SDK source, I have nothing to do	01:31
javispedro	*the new SDK	01:31
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faenil	good night :) cya tomorrow guys :)	01:37
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DocScrutinizer	http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=31769#post31769	02:46
javispedro	a thread for the aegis "fanclub" ;P	02:47
DocScrutinizer	I'd add it to the topic if it wasn't too long already	02:48
* SpeedEvil is too mehd out by today to add.		02:50
SpeedEvil	On the plus side, dj was useful distraction so I could complete a letter I really really wasn't wanting to write.	02:50
DocScrutinizer	please share that trick! For me distractions never work for doing sth I don't want to do. They just do... distract me ;-)	02:52
javispedro	yeah, same	02:52
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: the paradox in whle aegis "security" is: every idiotic malware could install develsh, and that's why they seem to think they need to strip down develsh to a state where it's not an issue to be installed by default on each consumer device	02:54
javispedro	that's not entirely true	02:55
javispedro	you technically need a token to install other packages	02:55
javispedro	(in fact, it's granted to develsh in beta2)	02:55
javispedro	but, even if that were to be the case, the solution is quite simple. _ask for a friggin password_	02:55
javispedro	it's not been a problem in way more secure unix boxen for _ages_	02:56
DocScrutinizer	"they" are completely denying the difference between a developer device and a target device anyway	02:56
DocScrutinizer	the standard answer is "this is not a workstation, this is a user device" - my reply each time is "look what's printed on the back of the device!"	02:57
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: (ask for password) don't preach to the choir :-)	02:57
DocScrutinizer	if it wasn't for "outsourcing" admin powers to OVI QA, the whole aegis thing was completely void and useless. Unix has all the needed methods to deal with local auth based administration	02:59
DocScrutinizer	and always had	03:00
javispedro	yes, but it's painful	03:00
javispedro	ask any ACL fan around	03:00
DocScrutinizer	sure	03:00
DocScrutinizer	but the TC concept isn't the answer to the annoyance of ACL administration	03:01
DocScrutinizer	the TC concept is about outsourcing admisistrative powers to some "higher instance" (thank you daddy!)	03:02
berndhs	it's the industry culture, going back to the days of government-owned phone companies	03:02
SpeedEvil	I do idly wonder if there is a monopolist concern	03:03
SpeedEvil	Look at what ahappened to IBM in 1965ish	03:03
SpeedEvil	The market would be a lot healtiuer if hardware and sotware were decoupled.	03:05
berndhs	yes but on the other hand, look at what didn't happen to oodles of other industries, in many countries: health care, trains, alcohol	03:05
berndhs	controlled markets are alive an well	03:05
javispedro	oh my, look at what slashdot is going to do today	03:06
javispedro	http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/09/20/2238257/Feds-Call-Full-Tilt-Poker-a-Global-Ponzi-Scheme	03:06
javispedro	look at the comments	03:06
javispedro	will be a fun day tomorrow, better restock popcorn	03:07
javispedro	in the meanwhile, MS says that win8 apps will also be walledgarden, so it's the end of computing as we know it.	03:09
javispedro	today I'm in such a weird mood I'm going to say, go for it. let's see this entire thing roll down the mountain until it either explodes or crashes	03:10
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BrettQ	so...the beta2 update breaks being able to disable aegis?	03:50
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DocScrutinizer	BrettQ: see backscroll URL - javispedro won set point 2	04:08
berndhs	this is just great, apt-get install mypackage, says everythings fine, but nothing installed	04:10
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BrettQ	DocScrutinizer: thanks, will check it out. I havent updated yet.	04:38
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eman	hmm. Beta2 has broken my access to the GPS.	06:15
eman	Anyone here using PositionSource element in their app under Beta2?	06:16
berndhs	eman: haven't tried it yet	06:22
berndhs	eman: check me middle of tomorrow :)	06:23
eman	berndhs: okay, thanks :)	06:24
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ajalkane		06:48
BrettQ	DocScrutinizer: read backscroll, but I don't see anything specific on how to disable aegis with the new update	06:48
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BrettQ	and I was being so productive until I saw there was an update...	06:49
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Venemo_N950	mornin	11:13
Venemo_N950	~ping	11:14
infobot	~pong	11:14
rantom	Morning	11:14
Venemo_N950	I found a new bug in 34-2	11:17
Venemo_N950	no matter how many times I merge my contacts, I always find duplicates that weren't there before	11:18
DocScrutinizer51	morning	11:18
Venemo_N950	hey DocScrutinizer51 :)	11:19
rantom	Venemo_N950: It duplicates contacts but not the data within the contact?	11:21
rantom	As in the earlier FW I merged contacts and the data within contact was duplicated	11:21
Venemo_N950	rantom, I dunno, sometimes it duplicates data too, sometimes it just unmerges the fb contact from the phone contact	11:29
rantom	Ok	11:30
Venemo_N950	but it's NOT 'ok'! it's very annoying.	11:31
Venemo_N950	:P	11:31
dm8tbr	who knows if that exists in the sales firmware too. if yes it should be put forward.	11:34
dm8tbr	I guess we don't have people with an actual N9 yet?	11:34
leinir	Wooh! my local mirror's been fixed - beta2 firmware download in progress :)	11:35
artemma	have N9 sales started eventually?	11:35
artemma	Wasn't Sep 15 the date for several countries?	11:35
Venemo_N950	dm8tbr, yeah we have: djszapi, frals, achipa, and other Nokia guys	11:36
dm8tbr	I meant sales firmware ;)	11:36
djszapi	do not expect anything from Nokia, I would say. Almost no resource working on Harmattan	11:36
Venemo_N950	hehe	11:36
djszapi	hard to find a person to press an "Ok" button :)	11:37
Venemo_N950	djszapi, that's sad news :(	11:37
Venemo_N950	djszapi, esp. considering that the device is not even released yet	11:37
djszapi	sad, but the conscious beheading is known (that is why I personally changed to another platform)	11:37
* dm8tbr thinks Nokia's internal personnel decisions have no place on this channel. ktx		11:38
djszapi	11 of febr. is so internal personnal xD	11:39
artemma	oh well, after preorders full within a couple of days, I guess @selop has to fire even more people to make sure N9 is not a success	11:39
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djszapi	Venemo_N950: also, it is not just gtlak miss, you cannot chat in facebook either	11:41
djszapi	I guess the same with twitter. Actually, that was a quite understandable decision to truncate those.	11:42
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Venemo_N950	artemma, meh, yeah.	11:43
Venemo_N950	very sad IMO	11:43
djszapi	actually, it is not even a customer device, so there is no need for that with development.	11:43
artemma	in fact this "strategy" just tears my head in halves :)	11:43
djszapi	(but the main point of those decisions is somethign different in my /guess/)	11:43
Venemo_N950	djszapi, I can chat in facebook I think	11:43
artemma	I mean I disagree, but can understand move to WP7, place of N9 in it I cannot	11:44
artemma	I wonder how many end users get at least something about it :)	11:44
Venemo_N950	I could even with the previous firmware	11:44
djszapi	Venemo_N950: the person who made the SDK told me, he eliminated the relevant package.	11:44
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djszapi	yes, but you should not be able with this release, that is the point.	11:44
Venemo_N950	djszapi, hmmm	11:45
Venemo_N950	lemme check	11:45
djszapi	actually, the google localization package is on the device ;)	11:45
djszapi	funky funky ;)	11:45
Venemo_N950	djszapi, I can go online with facebook chat, I can also see the green rectanges in the contacts app	11:46
djszapi	Venemo_N950: so can you chat ?	11:47
Venemo_N950	djszapi, come online and I'll try to chat you	11:47
djszapi	online	11:47
Venemo_N950	djszapi, it says you are offline, but I sent you a 'hello'	11:49
djszapi	I am online, did you get my response ?	11:49
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djszapi	I see what you wrote :)	11:49
Venemo_N950	djszapi, yee	11:50
djszapi	hehe, he did not truncate it well then :)	11:50
mece	djszapi, what chat should be truncated?	11:51
djszapi	Venemo_n950: I think this truncation is because of the fact, it is not sales release yet, just beta2	11:51
Venemo_N950	heh	11:51
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djszapi	They would like to have some wow-effect at the publication of that, not much left though imo :)	11:51
mece	facebook, gtalk and skype all work fine in the beta2 firmware	11:51
khertan	Morning	11:52
Venemo_N950	djszapi, if that really is the case and this is how Nokia "respects" their developers, I can already see how the others will react	11:52
mece	khertan, o/	11:52
djszapi	Venemo_N950: N950 was /never/ about developers.	11:53
djszapi	sorry, Harmattan	11:53
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Venemo_N950	djszapi, hmmm?	11:53
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djszapi	unneccesary to mix the developer needs into the platform if it was created only for user needs.	11:54
djszapi	Venemo_N950: at any rate, why do you need gtalk for development ?	11:54
Venemo_N950	I do not	11:54
Venemo_N950	but others would appreciate if the device were actually usable :)	11:55
mece	I understand absolutely nothing about this discussion Venemo_N950 and djszapi. What is truncated and how does nokia not respect developers?	11:55
djszapi	Venemo_N950: what is written on the back of the device ?	11:55
Venemo_N950	djszapi, that is not the point here.	11:56
djszapi	yes, that is the point of that device.	11:56
mece	Venemo_N950, what are you upset about? (Aside from the contact troubles)	11:58
Venemo_N950	ehhhh	11:58
Venemo_N950	I don't like complaining, so I won't repeat myself	11:59
khertan	and what is not anymore written in the windows background ;)	11:59
* khertan is joking		11:59
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mece	Venemo_N950, I read the recent backlog and it made no sense, so I was just curious. I think my n950 feels pretty complete with the latest update	12:02
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maxw	gtalk? skype?	12:06
maxw	I think they're the only things that are keeping my sim in my n900	12:07
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djszapi	maxw: I would not like to cause any lethargy for you, but I am not sure there will be any person after the sales release to press the "Ok" button to generate a new image, if it was okay from the law point of view for gtalk, skype and others as well.	12:09
Venemo_webchat	hey again	12:09
maxw	I think the same argument can be made about many features they have deemed to include...not sure why no gtalk or skype. It keeps me from being able to test my application fully in day-to-day use :/	12:09
djszapi	maxw: you need gtalk Ui for testing your app ?	12:10
mece	maxw, gtalk and skype work	12:10
maxw	I need it to be able to use it as my only device - not keen on carying two devices around.	12:10
djszapi	I mean the account plugin Ui	12:10
maxw	mece, they do?	12:10
djszapi	maxw: you have developer device, not consumer	12:10
djszapi	and you can still use mc-tool	12:11
maxw	djszapi: you think I don't know that...	12:11
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: I mean no disrespect towards you, but do you really not understand this, or you just enjoy arguing?	12:11
djszapi	maxw: if you know, why do you expect consumer device ?	12:11
mece	maxw, yes, but you cant make outgoing calls without the account plugin	12:11
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: I do not understand why you expect consumer device from a developer device.	12:11
maxw	mece: I just want IM so I can chat...	12:11
maxw	djszapi: you can't think of any reasons?	12:12
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: OK, if you are interested in my answer to that, I can tell you.	12:12
mece	maxw, ok, I managed to get skype working too yesterday. here's the howto: http://wiki.meego.com/Migrating_from_N900_to_N950#GTalk_and_Skype_account_setup	12:12
maxw	mece: thanks! I'll give that a shot. Then perhaps I can use it as my only device and I'll be able to properly test my app - and be more confident that the device will be successful and worth my time.	12:14
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: are you?	12:14
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: sure!	12:14
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: ok	12:14
Venemo_webchat	I can't speak for the rest of us, but my thinking is this:	12:15
Venemo_webchat	so the deal with Nokia was this: I develop a couple of FOSS apps for their new platform for free. in return, I get a loaned device.	12:16
djszapi	wrong	12:16
djszapi	loaned /developer/ device.	12:16
Venemo_webchat	so I work on their platform for completely free, in return I think I can rightfully expect the device to be able to be used as an everyday device for a few months.	12:17
mece	djszapi, just let him finish, and correct whatever you think is wrong afterwards please	12:17
maxw	djszapi: why do you think it's ok for a developer device to have less functionality than the consumer device?	12:17
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: see my correction above.	12:17
DocScrutinizer	WTF?! [2011-09-21 10:43:15] <djszapi> actually, it is not even a customer device, so there is no need for that with development. [2011-09-21 10:54:04] <djszapi> unneccesary to mix the developer needs into the platform if it was created only for user needs. --- SO what IS N950+beta2 now? No customer device with a FW that's not for devels either??	12:18
Venemo_webchat	both of us know that I probably won't get rich, even if I put my FOSS apps on ovi store.	12:18
spenap	but, any of you is actually enjoying while developing?	12:18
spenap	because I am	12:18
sandst1	me too	12:19
Venemo_webchat	so the least they could do to compensate me for my FREE work (which benefits Nokia, if anyone), is that they give me those couple of packages with which I could use my device like an end-user.	12:19
djszapi	maxw: I explained my reasoning for that above ;)	12:19
Venemo_webchat	that's what I think.	12:19
Venemo_webchat	I can live with a few bugs	12:19
Venemo_webchat	and I must admit that 34-2 is a lot better than 22-6	12:19
djszapi	I disagree, but I keep your opinion in respect.	12:19
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: if I were a profit-oriented company intending to make money with my apps, then your reasoning would be right.	12:20
Venemo_webchat	but I'm not a company, and I probably won't make any money with these apps	12:20
djszapi	maxw: namely: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/latest.log.html#t2011-09-21T11:51:15	12:21
djszapi	maxw: this is quite fundamental marketing strategy..	12:21
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: I think you can also read my reasoning above ^	12:21
mece	djszapi, so nok doesn't want us to show the world the nice features before the N9 is out in the open?	12:21
Venemo_webchat	so, in my eyes, this developer program is really about giving a device to the developers who otherwise couldn't afford it. in return, these devs develop a couple of apps, and everyone's happy.	12:22
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: yeah, I read your reasoning :)	12:22
djszapi	mece: rather obvious in product publications yes	12:22
mece	djszapi, makes sense. So then I can expect to get everything once N9 is in stores?	12:22
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: they wanted to give you the device to make them benefit, they did not want to satisfy you apart from that purpose. You accepted it by signing the contract.	12:23
Venemo_webchat	let's hope so	12:23
djszapi	mece: I also said the answer for that question above ;)	12:23
mece	djszapi, I missed it, was it yes or no?	12:23
DocScrutinizer	contract? which contract?	12:23
djszapi	mece: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/latest.log.html#t2011-09-21T11:51:15	12:23
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: yeah, but I didn't think that "they did not want to satisfy you apart from that purpose" part.	12:24
mece	djszapi, k then. Thanks	12:24
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: so anyway, I can understand the decision from their viewpoint	12:24
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: that is a good progress, few minutes ago you said I am just arguing :p	12:24
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: I asked that, and didn't say that.	12:25
mece	djszapi, Venemo_webchat, a good idea is to drop the subject once you agree tho.	12:25
Venemo_webchat	but I probably could not afford to buy an N9 anyway. so that's it for me :)	12:25
mece	;)	12:25
Venemo_webchat	mece :)	12:25
mece	Venemo_webchat, what's "it" for you?	12:26
Venemo_webchat	mece: the reason why I agreed to this developer program :)	12:26
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: the fact is that, I would actually be happy because they still provided much more than needed for development.	12:28
djszapi	I am trying to be optimist for sure ;)	12:28
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: indeed, that's why I said that 34-2 is a lot more likeable than the previous one	12:28
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: can I ask you something about Aegis? (not intending to start a flame war, just a question)	12:29
djszapi	sure!	12:29
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: there is a package called 'aegis-dev-mode' in the repo, which claims to enable the running of binaries without packages.	12:30
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: is that right?	12:30
gri	Venemo_webchat: MohammadAG was able to enable relaxed exec somehow but did not tell how since he sait it was not his idea	12:32
gri	said*	12:33
djszapi	we could not reproduce that yet...	12:33
mece	Venemo_webchat, that package is the one with the relaxed exec thing. It doesn't work with new firmware tho.	12:33
mece	the package is preinstalled	12:33
Venemo_webchat	nope, it isn't	12:33
gri	And did upgrade via dist-upgrade, nothing changed	12:33
djszapi	mece: nope, it is not	12:33
Venemo_webchat	aegis-dev-mode package doesn't contain the 'aegis-.developer-mode' binary.	12:34
djszapi	yes, that comes from the aegis-enabler	12:34
gri	only docs	12:34
Venemo_webchat	so that's why I'm a bit confused about it	12:34
mece	djszapi, well it's installed on my device and I didn't install it manually	12:34
mece	unless it was in some of the dev mode meta packages	12:34
djszapi	mece: yes, that is a different thing	12:35
Venemo_webchat	so djszapi, will this stuff enable me to run my binaries? if yes, can you please tell me how?	12:35
mece	Venemo_webchat, no.	12:36
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: can you please give me some minutes firts ? :p	12:36
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: sure	12:36
djszapi	Venemo_webchat: sorry, I cannot help right now, my apt-get is broken for some reason here.	12:38
Venemo_webchat	djszapi: OK, it's not urgent	12:38
Venemo_webchat	my N950 doesn't want to connect to the SDK via wifi anyway	12:38
Venemo_webchat	it rejects the password	12:38
gri	With beta2 it is still possible to login as user, phew :) The separation between developer and user is stupid since developer can't see users' accounts	12:40
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Venemo_webchat	hmm	12:41
Venemo_webchat	is it possible that the SDK connection tool gives me a wrong IP address?	12:41
gri	You can always run ifconfig in terminal	12:42
Venemo_webchat	no I can't	12:42
Venemo_webchat	there is no ifconfig on N950	12:42
gri	oh, I thought there was	12:42
Venemo_webchat	there was on the N900	12:43
achipa	/sbin/ifconfig	12:43
achipa	sbin might not be in the default path	12:44
achipa	just saying'	12:44
Venemo_webchat	achipa: yeah, that works	12:44
* gri wonders when SDK Connectivity Tool will remember the ip address I entered manually, it resets that every time :/		12:44
achipa	Venemo_webchat: as for wifi connection, it depends on the IP, it has to be from the private range	12:45
Venemo_webchat	ok, it's the correct address, but it still rejects my pw	12:45
achipa	192.168.* or 10.* IIRC	12:45
djszapi	/usr/bin:/bin only, mmm	12:45
achipa	otherwise it works just fine	12:45
Venemo_webchat	anyway, I gotta leave now. will be back in a couple of hours.	12:46
* RST38h discovered "developer packages" list in developer mode settings today		12:46
RST38h	sweet	12:47
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djszapi	Venemo_webchat: I could not install aegis-dev-mode, but it is just a debian folder anyways, not sure how it could take effect on security things like running a binary	12:50
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djszapi	imo it is just a left-over in the SDK	12:50
gri	RST38h: You mean the things like debugging and utilities?	12:52
RST38h	yeah	12:54
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artemma	My code fails to open file in /usr/share for writing	13:05
artemma	isn't /usr/share supposed to be accessible for all the sane processes?	13:05
artemma	and I need some universally accessible folder because sometimes my code is to be run by user, but sometimes maybe by root	13:07
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artemma	ah, ok, I don't get something basic in file output	13:08
artemma	can't open file even in the home folder	13:08
artemma	QFile file("~/timedtester.txt");	13:08
artemma	bool b = file.open(QIODevice::WriteOnly \| QIODevice::Text);	13:08
artemma	if(!b) {	13:08
artemma	qWarning() << "Failed to open debug file for writing";	13:08
artemma	}	13:08
artemma	What's wrong with it?	13:08
djszapi	well, first you would like to avoid "~"	13:09
djszapi	second, root cannot touch user home folder for instance	13:09
artemma	hmm, what if I don't know who the current user is?	13:09
artemma	in fact I don't care who he is. For right now I just want some location to write debug prints to	13:10
artemma	regardless under which user it's executed	13:10
Stskeeps	getenv("USER")	13:10
Stskeeps	:P	13:10
djszapi	artemma: you do not need to know, Qt knows that for you.	13:10
artemma	djszapi: ?	13:10
ph0b	use QDesktopServices::storageLocation()	13:10
artemma	ah, you mean that	13:10
artemma	ok	13:10
artemma	thx	13:10
ph0b	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdesktopservices.html#storageLocation	13:11
djszapi	QDir::homePath()	13:11
djszapi	storageLocation is buggy..	13:11
artemma	trying homePath now	13:11
artemma	works	13:15
artemma	may produce several files if run by several users, but I can live with that for debugging purposes	13:15
artemma	what is homePath for root?	13:15
djszapi	/root/	13:16
artemma	thanks	13:16
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artemma	and then I fail to write to file :/	13:24
artemma	well, file is created and grows.. like one byte per operation	13:25
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artemma	I guess I don't know Qt's file IO well	13:25
artemma	QFile file(debugFileName);	13:25
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artemma	QTextStream out(&file);	13:25
artemma	out << fullStr;	13:25
artemma	file.close();	13:25
artemma	Something very wrong here?	13:25
djszapi	why not just file.write ?	13:26
artemma	same fullStr prints well to qWarning()	13:26
artemma	only because QTextStream was present in the first example I found on web :)	13:26
artemma	so QFile should be able to accept normal QString?	13:26
djszapi	toUtf8/Ascii().data()	13:27
artemma	well, something is writter	13:28
artemma	ls -l shows 30 bytes	13:28
artemma	but "more timedtester.txt" shows nothing	13:28
djszapi	where did you open the file btw ?	13:29
artemma	homePath() +"/timedtester.txt"	13:29
djszapi	you did not show the open line.	13:29
* artemma just figured that root can't delete file in /home/developer		13:29
artemma	bool b = file.open(QIODevice::WriteOnly \| QIODevice::Text);	13:29
artemma		13:29
djszapi	have you tried to put and endl at the end ?	13:30
artemma	that was supposed to be the next step	13:30
artemma	will try now	13:30
djszapi	root cannot delete in other users' dir.	13:30
djszapi	"by default".	13:30
artemma	even under relaxed-exec?	13:31
djszapi	relaxed-exec is different.	13:31
artemma	hmm, then how do I clean debug file?	13:31
artemma	only by logging under the correct user?	13:31
djszapi	either correct user, or with proper credentials.	13:32
artemma	su developer tells me that operation is not permitted	13:33
artemma	hooray! endline helped! :)	13:33
artemma	apparently more expects it for some reason	13:33
djszapi	artemma: I would drop the QTextStream and endl, and just one write()	13:36
artemma	I use write() only right now	13:36
artemma	works	13:36
artemma	thankx	13:36
leinir	hmm... looks like mtp interferes with the flasher... had to uninstall it temporarily to get the flasher to start doing its thing	13:42
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vladest	hi	13:49
vladest	how to install .deb from BB ?	13:49
djszapi	bb as in busybox ?	13:50
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kkito	hello	13:50
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vladest	bb as big brother aka PC	13:53
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frals	copy to device, open terminal dpkg -i MyDocs/name.deb?	14:00
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vladest	is is possible to access device currently in SDK mode?	14:04
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artemma	hey! Have they removed gconftools2 from Beta2 firmware?	14:10
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w00t	it's gconftool-2, and no	14:12
SpeedEvil	artemma: have you seen the developer tools?	14:12
SpeedEvil	artemma: go to settings -> security -> developer mode, and under the ticked devmode switch after a reboot are lots of instlall buttons	14:12
SpeedEvil	From tcpdump, to valgrind, to doom II	14:12
SpeedEvil	(I may have made up the last)	14:12
artemma	yeah, it's gconftool-2, thanks!	14:13
* artemma is staring at two nearly identical projects. Yet in one of them QDBusMessage cannot be found		14:29
artemma	ok, solved. not sure how, but solved :)	14:31
artemma	achipa: are you here?	14:36
artemma	achipa: I've got a compilable, runnable, [relatively] clear and not working timed example for you :) Would be cool if you had time to look at it	14:37
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MohammadAG	hidden feature in the update	14:46
MohammadAG	calendar icon reflects day	14:46
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artemma	wow, indeed	14:46
artemma	so that's MeeGo's response to widgets :)	14:46
MohammadAG	or it's always been 21	14:46
artemma	to home screen widgets I mean	14:46
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hiemanshu	the way apple does it? :P	14:47
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mece	well there are acutal widgets too, in the events screen. The weather thing	14:50
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hiemanshu	MohammadAG: from the look of it, seems like a changing calendar	14:52
MohammadAG	hiemanshu, I think it just symlinks images	14:52
hiemanshu	MohammadAG: /usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/icon/icon-l-calendar.svg	14:54
hiemanshu	MohammadAG: hah, /usr/share/themes/blanco/meegotouch/icons/icon-l-calendar-{01..31}.png :D	14:57
MohammadAG	yeah, expected that	14:57
MohammadAG	what if there happens to be a 32 day month	14:57
MohammadAG	they didn't think of that eh	14:57
hiemanshu	lol	14:57
hiemanshu	anyways, got a doctors appointment	14:58
hiemanshu	because in a fe whours	14:58
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eman	Weird... GPS now working in beta2 after entering in Ovi account details and reboot	15:00
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achipa	artemma: send it	15:38
artemma	achipa: I don't know your email address	15:39
achipa	first.last@nokia.com is always a good guess :)	15:39
Stskeeps	stephen.elop, got it	15:40
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achipa	that's a good one, too	15:40
artemma	Stskeeps: actually it may work :) Except it will get to his secretary	15:40
artemma	achipa: sent	15:41
achipa	got it	15:41
artemma	cool! :)	15:41
* artemma shivers in hope :)		15:41
achipa	boy do these mails travel fast nowadays	15:41
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artemma	there may be a special direct link from google's smtp to major providers such as.. nokia?	15:42
achipa	I'm leaving shortly so pretty sure this won't happen today, but as long as it's in my inbox it's not forgotten :)	15:42
artemma	great!	15:42
artemma	thanks!	15:42
MohammadAG	unless it's spam? :P	15:45
artemma	Attila eats spam for breakfast :)	15:45
MohammadAG	must be some bad diet he's following then	15:46
MohammadAG	or tmo's a morning habit for him	15:46
npm	eman -- re "gps now working in beta2" -- so do you mean the GPS requires ovi account??	15:50
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npm	the reason i ask, is on beta1, i can't get a gps lock in my app unless i'm online	15:51
npm	but on the other hand, the drive and maps application seem to be able to maintain GPS lock w/o being online	15:51
npm	anybody know how my app can be offline and get GPS from PositionSource ?	15:51
ph0b	I used GPS in an app that I ran in beta1 and I used it offline without issue	15:52
npm	is it a QML GPS app or a C++ one	15:52
ph0b	QML/C++	15:52
npm	i thinnk my QML one is missing some boilerplate startup stuff like initing QGeoPositionInfoSource::createDefaultSource()	15:53
npm	any change you could point me to your sourcecode (GPL pref) so i can see how it's done	15:53
npm	i read somewhere that the GPS needs to go online to get nearby satellite information or somesuch, but there's a way to tell it to just search for them	15:55
ph0b	sure, give me your email adress in private	15:55
npm	cool thx!	15:55
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* npm hates this message 'dpkg: status database area is locked by another process'		16:01
npm	reboots	16:02
frals	pkill pkgmgrd <3	16:02
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leinir	crappy crap crap... flashing fails all over the place :P non-functional n950 now...	16:08
nibbler	leinir: which NOLO/flasher?	16:09
npm	actually pkill pkgmgrd and rebooting didn't help	16:09
Stskeeps	leinir: flash under windows	16:09
leinir	(boots into upgrade mode, though, so hope it's fixable)	16:09
npm	so it's a morning of fail here as well (hi leinir)	16:09
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leinir	Stskeeps: yeah... no windows boxes to hand, until house mate gets home :P	16:09
leinir	one is left wondering if the linux flasher was tested on a modern distribution at all... a 100 ms timeout for attempting to get to play with usb devices is not enough :P	16:10
leinir	(as well as nonsensical on a process which will take as long as this, a couple of seconds on top of a 40 minute flashing process isn't likely to cause many problems :P )	16:11
hiemanshu	leinir: what error?	16:11
* npm adds ' rm /var/lib/dpkg/lock' to frals' " pkill pkgmgrd " and wins		16:11
leinir	hiemanshu: Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy	16:11
hiemanshu	leinir: distro?	16:12
leinir	i'll just have to wait until Mike gets home, i'll abuse his machine	16:12
hiemanshu	leinir: while true; do modprobe -r cdc_phonet; done	16:12
leinir	hiemanshu: openSuse 11.2	16:12
frals	leinir: i have a feeling flasher is used daily by hundreds of engineers on a "modern" distribution ;-)	16:12
hiemanshu	leinir: keep that running in another terminal	16:12
frals	or maybe ubuntu isnt modern anymore :p	16:12
hiemanshu	leinir: or blacklist that module	16:12
leinir	frals: it isn't ;)	16:12
leinir	hiemanshu: hmm... right, i'll try and see if that might not do the trick, thanks :)	16:13
hiemanshu	leinir: it does the trick for me on suse 11.4	16:13
leinir	hmm... certainly got past step 1 now - been past that before, but... it could work! :)	16:14
leinir	Thanks :)	16:14
eman	npm: I'm not sure. The GPS wouldn't return coordinates and maps didn't work either. Even the most simple example code didn't work either. I entered in the Ovi account details and rebooted and it works now. Not sure if it was just the reboot that did it or whether positiond requires an Ovi account at startup.	16:15
rlinfati	cmt-mcusw_RX-71 -> very very old proto, cmt-mcusw_RM-660+RM-680 -> N950, cmt-mcusw_RM-690 -> N9-16, cmt-mcusw_RM-696, N9-64, cmt-mcusw_RM-716 -> New device?????	16:15
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frals	leinir: doh ;)	16:19
frals	lul	16:19
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leinir	ah, i'm on opensuse 11.4 as well, of course :)	16:19
leinir	frals: well, not exactly lulz, this is a pretty obscure issue ;)	16:19
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frals	leinir: ;)	16:21
leinir	But, it is most certainly yay, if this does the trick :)	16:21
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leinir	balls	16:30
leinir	bb5_rdc_cert_read failed	16:30
hiemanshu	one more with the same issue	16:31
hiemanshu	leinir: so no matter what it wont flash on 11.4 :P	16:31
hiemanshu	leinir: use windows flasher on windows :P	16:31
leinir	it would seem that way	16:31
leinir	right, i'll just have to wait three and a half hours or so	16:31
hiemanshu	leinir: spent 8 hours yesterday trying to figure that out	16:31
rlinfati	grrr i install 34-2, and now, the nokia account do not work :(	16:31
hiemanshu	nothing ever worked, and used the windows one, and it worked :P	16:32
berndhs	i gave up trying to flash from Fedora 15 and used meego, works ok there	16:32
hiemanshu	Fedora 15, Latest Ubuntu and openSuSE 11.4, doesn't work	16:33
hiemanshu	fails with same error	16:33
hiemanshu	Stskeeps: ^	16:33
rlinfati	ubuntu 11.04 work here....	16:33
BrettQ	hiemanshu: thanks for the info, saves me the trouble of downloading this at home	16:33
rlinfati	( 32 bits )	16:33
hiemanshu	rlinfati: I said latest, 11.10 :P	16:34
hiemanshu	(beta)	16:34
hiemanshu	I'll probably spend some time over the weekend when I dont need a phone to test this out	16:36
hiemanshu	and figure what is wrong	16:36
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berndhs	i would guess that my meego system ran the 32 bit flasher, and the fedora the 64 bit one	16:38
berndhs	although that probably isn't the cause of the problem	16:38
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hiemanshu	berndhs: I tried a 32 bit distro too, no go	16:46
rlinfati	grrr the nokia account do not work.... giving back my sim to the n900....	16:55
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jreznik	hiemanshu: what's the problem in Fedora - it worked for me on F15 but it needed some tweaks	16:57
hiemanshu	jreznik: what kind?	16:57
jreznik	hiemanshu: blacklisting cdc_phonet	16:58
jreznik	hiemanshu: what was your error message?	16:58
hiemanshu	jreznik: yes, but you didn't get a bb5_rdc_cert_read failed error?	16:58
jreznik	hiemanshu: ah, not, different one - bad proto	16:59
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hiemanshu	jreznik: 32 bit fedora?	17:01
jreznik	hiemanshu: 64 bit, f15	17:02
hiemanshu	jreznik: didnt for me, no idea why :/	17:02
hiemanshu	jreznik: but on windows, worked just fine	17:03
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Venemo_webchat	hi	17:11
hiemanshu	hey	17:13
npm	berndhs: so for flashing should i use my meego netbook then?	17:17
* npm scrolls back and sees that's the case		17:17
* npm waits some more to update		17:17
* npm needs two n950's :-)		17:18
Venemo_webchat	npm: you will need to kill someone to get another	17:19
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berndhs	npm: meego netbook worked for me yes	17:19
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npm	seems like buying an n9 would be a better option	17:21
npm	not that i have the $$$ to do that.	17:21
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npm	is there a program to get n9's to developers?	17:23
djszapi	no	17:23
MohammadAG	no	17:23
MohammadAG	we're training commandos to break into Nokia and steal them though	17:23
npm	don't all answer in unison :-)	17:23
MohammadAG	wanna join?	17:23
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berndhs	you want to do the tunneling soon before the ground freezes	17:24
npm	sounds similar to the former option to get the n950	17:24
npm	or just wait for a chinese unathorized copy :-)	17:26
MohammadAG	well no	17:26
MohammadAG	this time we're hoping they didn't implement a self WP7 feature in the bootloader	17:27
npm	actually, a nokia dual boot phone would be a good "split the difference" option	17:28
MohammadAG	no, the feature would wipe meego and install WP7 to intimidate you	17:29
alterego	Wouldn't it be cool if Nokia released a phone where you could _chooose_ what OS you wanted on it.	17:29
npm	booting into wp7 incase you have to use it at work, for example. and then back to meego for freedom.	17:29
npm	it could be sold as a product differentiator over any other windows phones.	17:31
npm	however, the MBA's won't like it because they won't be able to build in the promise luring people in, then locking them in, and then jacking up the rates, which is the only reason why their interested in doing software.... to gaffle people.	17:33
MohammadAG	alterego, it'd be cooler if switching between them was a swipe away	17:39
rlinfati	wiii, now work the nokia account.... using 3g and not wifi ( maybe need the imei for something.... )	17:43
alterego	Heh	17:43
* jreznik is thinking about buying N9... as N950 is really dev only device, without signal it's impossible to use it as phone but I really don't want to use N900 anymore as daily phone :)		17:45
MohammadAG	Nokia account works both ways for me	17:47
djszapiN9	jreznik think it twice	17:47
jreznik	djszapiN9: twice?	17:48
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GAN900	jreznik, the signal issue is really bizarre and frustrating.	17:50
frals	jreznik: think about buying two N9s ;)	17:50
GAN900	Doesn't seem like either of Harmattan's device are going to be home runs.	17:51
GAN900	N9's got the shitty screen and no keyboard	17:51
GAN900	N950's got a differently shitty screen, weak reception and no storage.	17:51
djszapiN9	jreznik indeed or three times	17:51
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djszapiN9	before buying any N9	17:52
frals	Shitty screen?	17:52
MohammadAG	GAN900, and a shitty body :P	17:52
frals	what are you basing "shitty screen" on GAN900?	17:52
frals	have you even seen it? >_<	17:52
GAN900	frals, PenTile.	17:52
MohammadAG	pentile looks bad on paper frals	17:52
jreznik	frals: actually I need something for my gf, I bought Veer for her, as it's small nice phone but web os 2 is bad... even the first n950 fw was billion times better :(	17:52
GAN900	I do a lot of reading	17:52
GAN900	(on device)	17:53
GAN900	and PenTile aint gonna cut it.	17:53
frals	dunno what impact pentile has, but i know im using my n9 over the n950 because the screen is fucking gorgeous	17:53
jreznik	djszapiN9: so the only option is to buy something with wp7, yeah, I understand you... android sucks, webos sucks, ios looks quite outdated...	17:53
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GAN900	jreznik, was playing with the Veer at the AT&T store the other day.	17:53
GAN900	frals, halving the resolution.	17:53
GAN900	Veer is quite a slick little device.	17:53
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GAN900	If irrelevant these days	17:54
GAN900	Since people are after smarter phones, no smaller ones.	17:54
djszapiN9	jreznik i did not say to buy wp7	17:54
GAN900	frals, PenTile really negatively impact the readability of small type.	17:54
GAN900	FBReader	17:54
jreznik	GAN900: Veer is awesome but software is really very bad and of course - no support...	17:55
jreznik	djszapiN9: so any other option? :)	17:55
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frals	not tried fbreader, but not had problems reading feeds/webpages on device at least	17:56
djszapiN9	jreznik i do not know your use case, but i am happy with android qt project over there	17:56
frals	otoh the font sizes used by platform apps are probably tweaked to look optimal on the display so	17:57
frals	djszapi: looks really good that you recommend people to not buy N9, promise.	17:57
djszapiN9	think twice != not buy	17:58
MohammadAG	frals, can you ship me your N9?	18:02
MohammadAG	I'll return it, promise	18:02
MohammadAG	you'll cover the costs though	18:02
MohammadAG	also I want to test the scratch resistance, they say it's good	18:02
Venemo_webchat	lol	18:04
frals	MohammadAG: i have a feeling i would get a call asking me wtf my proto is doing in .il all of a sudden :<	18:04
Venemo_webchat	frals: you could say that you're on a vacation? :P	18:05
MohammadAG	frals, you can keep the GPS chip then	18:05
MohammadAG	it's not like it won't boot up without it	18:05
Venemo_webchat	xD	18:05
frals	MohammadAG: i have a feeling id break the device trying to remove the GPS ;)	18:06
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MohammadAG	back to GAN900's sentence then	18:06
frals	MohammadAG: im sure it will be available from your local operator soon enough anyway ;)	18:06
Venemo_webchat	MohammadAG: maybe you could promise frals not to turn on the gps?	18:06
MohammadAG	shitty body on the N950 - scratchable	18:06
MohammadAG	shitty body on N9, not disassemblable	18:06
MohammadAG	I made a word, sue me	18:06
MohammadAG	frals, but I don't want to buy it before using the PenTile screen for free!	18:07
frals	MohammadAG: doesnt the stores around you usually have devices to try before buying? ;)	18:07
MohammadAG	frals, no, only iPhones	18:07
MohammadAG	oh yeah and dummies, gotta love dummies	18:07
frals	:[	18:08
frals	convince them to give you a N9 to try	18:08
MohammadAG	my operator doesn't have an N900	18:08
frals	... just dont run off with it without paying, they generally dont like that	18:08
MohammadAG	you know	18:08
MohammadAG	I'd love a signed letter from you	18:08
MohammadAG	with a Nokia stamp	18:08
MohammadAG	that I can get that phone from my operator	18:08
frals	lol	18:08
MohammadAG	leave two spaces after N9, wanna add a 50 and take my device there	18:09
MohammadAG	I've never tried that actually	18:09
MohammadAG	go to a store and ask them if they sell N950s	18:10
Venemo_webchat	:D	18:10
Venemo_webchat	MohammadAG: what's the point? they most certainly don't.	18:10
MohammadAG	Venemo_webchat, well, my operator said the N900 is chinese cause they never heard of it	18:10
MohammadAG	so I'd like to hear where the N950 was manufactured	18:10
Venemo_webchat	lol, how ridiculous	18:10
berndhs	MohammadAG: the cardboard box is made in Finland, according to the sticker on it	18:12
MohammadAG	btw	18:13
MohammadAG	anyone tried the code on the N950 box?	18:13
Venemo_webchat	MohammadAG: I didn't, but according to others, it'll send a tweet	18:13
MohammadAG	I recall it was a QML twitter app or something	18:13
Venemo_webchat	yes, you recall right!	18:14
MohammadAG	didn't try it, just remember reading it	18:15
Venemo_webchat	MohammadAG: did you see the pic I sent you on fb?	18:17
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MohammadAG	no, apparently when the N950's online facebook.com doesn't "ding"	18:17
Venemo_webchat	yeah, when a client is there, it won't ding	18:18
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MohammadAG	javispedro, we don't *** * swear when *** talking about * aegis, **	19:01
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MohammadAG	hey, anyone thought of putting aegis on IRCd so it'd return Operation not permitted on swear words?	19:01
kkito	MohammadAG: ?	19:02
Stskeeps	what, we can't curse aegis anymore?	19:02
Stskeeps	:P	19:02
w00t	Stskeeps: aegisircd won't allow it	19:02
Stskeeps	w00t: haha	19:02
MohammadAG	http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=31851&postcount=8 Stskeeps	19:02
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rlinfati	apt-cache show libqtm-location-patched :/	19:06
rlinfati	is a old version?	19:06
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kkito	http://store.ovi.com/content/193295?clickSource=search&pos=1	19:15
kkito	aegis really protect the users :P	19:15
Teo`	are there any known issues with wifi on the N950 with the new beta2 firmware?	19:15
Teo`	after flashing I can't connect to a WPA-PSK network	19:16
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MohammadAG	works fine here	19:16
Teo`	MohammadAG: ok, I guess it might be a luser error from my part	19:16
Teo`	need to figure out how	19:16
Tronic	kkito: An obvious hoax is obvious. The only question is why hasn't Nokia removed it already.	19:17
sandst1	Tronic: it doesn't have elop as the main character?	19:17
sandst1	:P	19:17
kkito	http://store.ovi.com/content/192213?clickSource=search&pos=1	19:19
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sandst1	wow	19:20
sandst1	http://store.ovi.com/publisher/anurag%20guleria/	19:20
sandst1	4 copies per game in the store.	19:21
sandst1	do they even have an approval process..?	19:21
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GeneralAntilles	frals, liar.	19:29
djszapi	sandst1: hehe :)	19:33
gri	Let's hope the community downloader is finished soon to ignore ovi :/	19:39
ieatlint	i'm about to release my new awesome game "onery birds" to ovi store	19:42
* gri thinks there is already a bot for automatically creating feed apps		19:45
ieatlint	yes.	19:45
gri	If not, I will sell one on ovi ;)	19:46
npm	wow, i could understand one of the sentences in http://aani.nokia.fi/2011/09/16/nokia-n9-sai-aikaan-ennakkovarausten-tulvan/ :-)	19:48
djszapi	npm: google translator :p	19:51
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npm	turns it into finglish	19:54
frals	GeneralAntilles: teh wat?	19:57
djszapi	npm: I think it is still understandable, and you certainly understand at least one sentence :)	19:58
GeneralAntilles	frals, local operators.	19:58
GeneralAntilles	Having N9s.	19:58
npm	all's i can say ... someone should convince the CEO of Netflix, Leo Apotheker (HP), and SElop to do a startup company together. It might prevent a global recession.	19:58
npm	(keep em out of the way of progress)	19:59
frals	GeneralAntilles: i assume the operators where MohammadAG is from will carry it	19:59
GeneralAntilles	npm, can we make them do it on the moon?	20:00
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ajalkane	Remember those two überkool guys introducing merger of Maemo and Moblin? The harry potter looking wizard and the spock looking nerd	20:04
ajalkane	They were badass	20:04
ajalkane	I wonder whats up, not been in any marketing material recently	20:05
Stskeeps	one of them, ari jaaksi moved to webos	20:06
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ajalkane	They could come kick all sort of ass for MeeGo again	20:06
Stskeeps	i'm not entirely sure who's the spock and whos' the wizard	20:06
ajalkane	Ah... no wonder	20:06
jreznik	Stskeeps: ari jaaksi, the touch of death :)	20:07
* ajalkane apologizes, I just realized I'm writing a bit delirious stuff. Fever.		20:07
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ajalkane	back to angry birds	20:08
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wazd	"Floppy" folder in N950's root really freaks me out :)	20:14
berndhs	wazd: they have plans for removable storage after all ?	20:15
ieatlint	there's going to be an official n9 floppy disk drive attachment	20:17
wazd	and cdrom too :P	20:18
ieatlint	4 speed only though	20:18
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RST38h	Moo all	20:34
npm	i have a dumb question: update on beta1 says new versions of "develsh devtools-memory devtools-networking devtools-utilities" are available	20:38
RST38h	Meanwhile: The HP board happens to be meeting today, possibly to discuss firing the current CEO for failing to improve the company's financial prospects.	20:38
RST38h	npm: upgrade.	20:39
npm	is it wise to update, or are these for beta2	20:39
RST38h	upgrade.	20:39
npm	i meant upgrade	20:39
npm	so answer yes and phone will still work?	20:39
RST38h	yes	20:40
Teo`	how do I get the Terminal app back in the beta2 firmware?	20:40
dm8tbr	enable developer mode	20:41
npm	wtf Aegis rejecting /var/cache/apt/archives/develsh_1.14+0m6_armel.deb: package 'develsh' already installed from 'com.nokia.maemo' -- not replacing it from unknown origin	20:41
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Teo`	dm8tbr: thanks	20:42
MohammadAG	you're installing it from?	20:42
npm	the normal places?	20:42
npm	Get:1 https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ develsh 1.14+0m6 [4,412B]	20:42
npm	i guess i shouldna done that as root? http://nielsmayer.com/meego/n950-upgrade-bork.txt	20:46
RST38h	good reasoning Watson	20:47
npm	so what user do you run upgrade from if not root?	20:47
RST38h	no, you do it as root	20:47
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npm	then whats "rm: can't remove '/home/developer/bin/remote-wrapper.sh': Permission denied"	20:48
RST38h	mghm	20:48
RST38h	ok, just flash the system update	20:48
npm	well it still works :-)	20:48
npm	course i haven't rebooted yet	20:48
npm	i think those messages are spurious since '/home/developer/bin/remote-wrapper.sh' doesn't exist	20:50
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npm	survived reboot	20:56
RST38h	if it is already installed, then why shouldn't it...	20:57
npm	well i can live w/o the latest develsh and soon i'll just wipe it and start over again. but not today.	20:58
npm	but if anybody has ideas on what's wrong w/ http://nielsmayer.com/meego/n950-upgrade-bork.txt and all the kept back pages let me know	20:59
frals	npm: pretty sure apt-get upgrade from 22-6 to 34-2 is not supported	20:59
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RST38h	frals:well he is only updating the develsh package	21:02
RST38h	should not be a problem in principle, as long as all depends are satisfied	21:02
frals	and as long as someone put the right stuff in Depends: :[	21:03
RST38h	frals: You are not trying to imply Nokians would putgarbage into package depends? =)	21:03
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npm	devtools-memory devtools-networking devtools-utilities sdk-connectivity-tool got upgraded	21:04
frals	RST38h: the case might be that the integration process might allow you to be able to 'forget' to update depends to correct versions... might ;P	21:04
npm	so are the held back pages held back because there's a beta2 dependency not satisfied?	21:05
RST38h	Hah!	21:05
RST38h	Aegis rejecting /var/cache/apt/archives/readline-common_6.2-2_all.deb: package 'readline-common' already installed from 'com.nokia.maemo' -- not replacing it from unknown origin	21:05
npm	looks familiar	21:05
RST38h	I think I know what is going on	21:06
RST38h	Someone, please catch RZR and explain to the guy that he is not supposed to upload duplicates of official nokia packages into his repo	21:06
RST38h	No matter how hard he wants to have as many packages as possible	21:06
frals	:D	21:06
RST38h	No, really	21:07
wazd	heh, after syncing with N950 my N900 stopped to recognize numbers from the phonebook	21:07
npm	i dont think i have that repo enabled	21:07
RST38h	Heya wazd	21:07
wazd	RST38h: o/	21:08
wazd	RST38h: saw something in the store :P	21:08
RST38h	yeah	21:08
RST38h	more to come	21:08
wazd	RST38h: awesome-o :)	21:08
RST38h	OMG, Harmattan does not let root run nano now =(	21:08
wazd	Anyone tried to hack this wather widget on the homescreen? :)	21:09
wazd	weather*	21:09
RST38h	wazd: it is actually not a nokia widget	21:10
frals	wazd: think it has a dbus interface.. not sure its 'protected' though	21:10
RST38h	wazd: looks like these "other" weather app guys have got some private info from nokia	21:10
artemma	trying to email ilya.dogolazky about timed. Let's see if it helps	21:10
wazd	RST38h: yeah, same thoughts	21:11
frals	(dbus-monitor while launching accuweather app should tell you)	21:11
RST38h	Anyone has seen the elessar guy?	21:11
RST38h	He is working on the QMLversion of FBReader	21:11
GAN900	Works pretty well.	21:12
RST38h	GAN: Where is the deb???	21:12
npm	RST38h: this is probably the problem http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/h/harmattan-repository/	21:12
GAN900	RST38h, fiferboy is hosting the one he put together somewhere.	21:13
RST38h	npm: ?	21:13
* SpeedEvil is annoyed that you can't have C, and MPH from accuweather.		21:13
RST38h	GAN: U! R! L! U! R! L! =)	21:13
RST38h	miles per hallon? =)	21:13
GAN900	Don't have it handy.	21:13
GAN900	http://andrew.olmsted.ca/harmattan/packages/	21:15
RST38h	thanks	21:15
npm	following http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=26747#post26747 a while back may be the source of dup packages, not RZR's	21:15
RST38h	will itwork as a deb repo?	21:15
RST38h	npm:well,readline-common is definitely coming from rzr's	21:16
GAN900	think so	21:16
wazd	RST38h: since icons for that widget were included in the firmware even before the actual app	21:17
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RST38h	wazd: yeah	21:17
wazd	but there's still "task switcher widget mode" for us :P	21:23
RST38h	not really a widget...	21:24
RST38h	I am sure someone will eventually hack the lockscreen notifications API...	21:24
wazd	RST38h: better than nothing :)	21:25
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MohammadAG	hack it how?	21:31
RST38h	Mohammad: for examplestart observing dbus calls	21:31
faenil	SpeedEvil: you can have MPH and C in 1.1 version ;)	21:31
RST38h	see if there are any leading to creation of a notification box (the transparent rectangular one)	21:31
MohammadAG	RST38h, I mean to get what	21:31
RST38h	to get to a method of displaying your ownnotifications	21:32
MohammadAG	umm	21:32
MohammadAG	you can do that?	21:32
MohammadAG	it's a normal MNotification	21:32
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MohammadAG	I already do it in Sociality	21:33
MohammadAG	now with squircled avatars	21:33
faenil	heya mark! :)	21:33
mlong	Hello faenil	21:33
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* mlong is the author of the AccuWeather app.		21:34
wazd	MohammadAG: with some low holywood-style exagerated evil voice I want that widget dead :)	21:34
wazd	ooooops :D	21:34
RST38h	Mohammad:!	21:34
MohammadAG	well that was something I didn't expect	21:34
wazd	mlong: and the widget too?	21:35
MohammadAG	wait	21:35
RST38h	wazd: heat up the iron!	21:35
MohammadAG	what widget are we talking?	21:35
mlong	Yeah.	21:35
MohammadAG	the one next to date or the on the lockscreen	21:35
RST38h	the weather widget	21:35
wazd	MohammadAG: weather	21:35
MohammadAG	oh that	21:35
* MohammadAG heats up iron with wazd		21:35
leinir	"You can only have one twitter account"	21:35
leinir	wow, that's really silly	21:35
mlong	wazd: Yes, the weather widget too.	21:35
SpeedEvil	leinir: Indeed	21:36
wazd	mlong: awesome! :)	21:36
wazd	mlong: can I have one? :D	21:36
faenil	wazd: lol	21:36
wazd	mlong: http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/application-preview-meecast-for-harmattan/	21:36
mlong	There are many, many improvements that are in final testing at the moment which will be released soon (as an individual app update, I understand).	21:37
wazd	mlong: that's awesome, but what about widget? Is it hardcoded?	21:37
MohammadAG	he meant can he replace it with his own	21:37
mlong	The widget is hardcoded.	21:38
leinir	mlong: fixing the twitter singleton thing wouldn't happen to be in there, would it? ;)	21:38
MohammadAG	mlong, in accuweather or meegohometouch?	21:38
wazd	crap :(	21:38
mlong	No, the weather widget is separate from the twitter widget	21:38
MohammadAG	huh	21:39
MohammadAG	meegohometouch isn't twitter	21:39
wazd	http://nooooooooooooooo.com/	21:40
mlong	What's the issue with the widget?	21:40
wazd	mlong: the issue is that we, as developers of community weather apllication, wanted to have this super-power too	21:41
wazd	mlong: but I guess we can't	21:41
mlong	Ah, I don't know the ramifications of the politics of it. Then again, as someone who has a vested interest in keeping our app in plain sight, I can't really be considered an unbiased source. :-)	21:42
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wazd	mlong: yeah, np	21:43
mlong	I believe the api used for the widgets is not in the general sdk release, though, for what it's worth.	21:43
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npm	seems like the easiest way to get "widgets" would be if one could drop QML into the notifications, and have it be interpreted, via Qt.createQmlObject("import QtQuick 1.0 ; <your code here>");	21:47
MohammadAG	mlong, so basically, it's not hardcoded in meegotouch, but not public either	21:47
MohammadAG	reversable, thanks :P	21:47
mlong	MohammadAG: Yes, moreless.	21:48
RST38h	GAN: Sorry to disappoint, but fiferboy has got the wrong version of FBreader	21:50
GeneralAntilles	You sure?	21:50
GeneralAntilles	Mine's from him, it's QML.	21:50
RST38h	GAN: He appears to be doing a straight port to QML. Elessar's version is somewhat better than that	21:50
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GeneralAntilles	Ah	21:51
GeneralAntilles	Hrm	21:51
MohammadAG	wazd, RST38h	21:51
MohammadAG	/usr/share/meegotouch/applicationextensions/events-weather.desktop	21:51
RST38h	In his version you can flick pages	21:51
GeneralAntilles	Meh	21:51
MohammadAG	com.nokia.home.EventsExtensionInterface/1.	21:51
RST38h	GAN: What "meh"? It definitely beats previous methods of browsing in fbreader	21:51
mlong	MohammadAG: The widget is part of the accuweather package.	21:51
GeneralAntilles	Using volume keys?	21:51
GeneralAntilles	Hardly	21:51
MohammadAG	mlong, yeah, I know, wxapp	21:51
MohammadAG	:P	21:51
GeneralAntilles	Get my screen all smudged up.	21:51
RST38h	GAN: Beats volume keys hands down	21:52
MohammadAG	RST38h, wazd go through /usr/lib/meegotouch/applicationextensions/libevents-weather.so	21:52
GeneralAntilles	For you	21:52
RST38h	GAN: ANd yes, it is better to smudge your screen than wear out your volume keys	21:52
GeneralAntilles	Haven't worn out any volume keys yet.	21:53
RST38h	Mohammad: I doubt disassembling .so is going to be easy =)	21:53
MohammadAG	RST38h, no, but ldding it is	21:53
MohammadAG	it's linked to libmeegotouchextensions	21:53
MohammadAG	which is open	21:53
MohammadAG	the headers may or may not be different, idk	21:53
RST38h	ah	21:54
mlong	:)	21:54
MohammadAG	RST38h, you can make headers	21:57
RST38h	checking	21:57
RST38h	ALSO: /usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libmeegotouchextensions	21:58
ajalkane	RST38h: root can edit with nano. I edited my terminal toolbar with it to have nice keys for irssi use	22:01
RST38h	ajalkane: not in the latest firmware update, have to go into develsh for that	22:02
MohammadAG	RST38h, it's an MWidget, why look at the theme	22:02
ajalkane	RST38h: I did it in latest	22:02
RST38h	Mohammad: no particular reason just thought there may be something of use there too	22:02
MohammadAG	no but it looks easy	22:02
ajalkane	RST38h: but Im not sure if I did it before or after there came some updates	22:03
MohammadAG	k	22:03
MohammadAG	you have to take mapplicationextensioninterface.h	22:03
MohammadAG	modify it a bit	22:03
RST38h	!	22:04
ajalkane	RST38h: sorry, I used develsh. No idea about root	22:04
MohammadAG	so it says com.nokia.home.EventsExtensionInterface/1	22:04
MohammadAG	and include the new header and the non modified one	22:04
MohammadAG	then implement the virtual methods	22:04
RST38h	Ok,so you did use develsh	22:04
MohammadAG	it seems easy	22:06
MohammadAG	anyway gotta study, bbl	22:06
RST38h	good luck with studies =)	22:06
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RST38h	GAN: Still here?	22:29
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	22:30
RST38h	GAN: Get a deb from here instead: http://qutim.org/downloads/?page=downloads	22:30
GeneralAntilles	Right-ho	22:30
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GeneralAntilles	Unconstitutional new patent law	22:37
GeneralAntilles	Love it.	22:37
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GeneralAntilles	Heyo, javispedro.	22:41
javispedro	moo.	22:41
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gri	RST38h: Isn't the lockscreen notification api only using MNotification? commhistory-daemon which sends the notifications for incoming sms is using this	23:00
gri	argh	23:00
gri	was scrolled somewhere	23:00
gri	didn't notice this was long ago :)	23:01
piggz	evening	23:04
faenil	evening :)	23:09
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lardman	evening all	23:10
javispedro	evening lardman	23:11
lardman	any ideas about whether backup backs up contacts? Mine seem to have vanished	23:11
lardman	hi javispedro	23:11
faenil	known issue ç)	23:12
w00t	things changed from b1 to b2	23:12
lardman	oh, drat	23:12
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gri	mine are also gone :/	23:22
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Arkenoi	so, with new firmware, is there a way to let the phone run unsigned binaries or to sign a binary on demand>	23:37
Arkenoi	?	23:37
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gri	Not yet	23:44
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* lardman just restored from his N900		23:47
alterego	There is an import, export function in blogger	23:47
alterego	Restored what?	23:47
lardman	contacts	23:47
lardman	sorry, laptop suspended so I dropped out there	23:48
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alterego	Ah, I went through and sorrted all of mine after restoring the otther day.	23:50
alterego	Does the N950 work with Ovi Suite?	23:50
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MohammadAG	Twitter has only just now opened up the ability to post a photo via SMS oh engadget, sms?	23:56
alterego	Heh	23:58

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