IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2011-09-20

macmaN_that isnt in store is it00:00
rantomI think it is?00:00
rantomWhat was the script to import contacts?00:00
macmaN_uhm, where have Downloads gone from status menu00:01
MohammadAGTransfers? that's worrying00:02
MohammadAGbut they're still there for me00:02
rantomMy OS X has an icon to the N95000:03
rantomAnd it's not anymore N9xx, it's N95000:03
vitaminjDocScrutinizer: don't touch the "restore device" button in the "dali" box btw, if I haven't banged on about that enough, it'll wipe the cloud side and transfer nothing00:03
macmaN_thats what the .icns file gives you00:03
macmaN_on the device00:04
MohammadAGyeah, fenix thinks it's an N900:04
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rantomFunnily enough it's an icon of the N9 in white ;)00:04
vitaminjrantom: cheeky swines00:05
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DocScrutinizeris it just me or is there actually *no* way to see *all* available pkgs in OVI store? "top free", "best sellers", "new" doesn't exactly sound like any of the 3 will allow to see *all*00:06
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: hi, wb00:06
macmaN_there's some buried menu item there saying All Applications and themsuch00:07
macmaN_i was wondering about that too00:07
DocScrutinizermacmaN_: can't find it00:07
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macmaN_i think it appears in the bottom of one of those categories00:07
vitaminjyou can go to the categories tab, all apps, newest and you get an mega-scrolling infinite-list00:08
macmaN_the bullshitspamminess of that list is very bad after a couple of pages00:09
macmaN_is there some mechanism to combat that?00:09
macmaN_id like to just skip all the pdf tutorials that are sold as apps00:09
SpeedEvilContent should be able to be sold as apps.00:10
SpeedEvilJust not right alongside the apps00:10
macmaN_totally devalues others00:10
DocScrutinizeron "categories" (middle button toolbar) -> "appliations" -> "All application": I get a mega list but still tagged "new"00:11
DocScrutinizer(top free)_(Best sellers)_>NEW<00:11
rantomWhere's my transferred folder?00:15
rantomMyDocs is empty00:15
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MohammadAGunmounted + ejected + unplugged?00:16
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DocScrutinizerthe wonders of "mount"00:16
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rantomI'm via SSH00:18
DocScrutinizerdd if=/dev/zero of=/somefolder/foo bs=500M count=1; mount -o bind /someotherfolder /somefolder00:19
DocScrutinizerls /somefolder -> empty00:19
DocScrutinizerdf -h /somefolder -> 500MB used up by ????00:20
rantomI can't even find my Music00:20
DocScrutinizerrantom: unplug the mass storage00:20
DocScrutinizermass storage unmounts MyDocs00:20
rantomDocScrutinizer: I'm in Sync00:21
rantomAnd then using SSH00:21
DocScrutinizerso ~user/MyDocs is just an empty folder, not a VFAT fs00:21
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# mount|grep vfat00:22
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DocScrutinizer/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,allow_utime=0022,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8,rodir,errors=remount-ro)00:22
DocScrutinizercheck that00:22
rantommount|grep vfat00:24
rantom/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,allow_utime=0022,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8,rodir,errors=remount-ro)00:24
rantomNow it found them00:24
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rantomThere's Select All button for exporting contacts00:26
rantomThank you!00:26
DocScrutinizerI honestly wonder what that ubuntu crap might be .oO(???)  "Ubuntu, by SoVera|Apps, Applications > Utilities;  Ubuntu in Symbian"00:28
javispedrothe twitter app is nice00:29
RST38hBTW, gentlemen, how do I add a GTalk account with mc-tool???00:35
javispedrothis should be put on a wiki or something..00:36
macmaN_rantom: yeah that Select All button is new i believe. previously only ctrl+a saved you.00:36
rantommacmaN_: Damn, how come I didn't think of that..00:38
macmaN_yes daniel san, you still have lot to learn00:38
rantomOvi Store works btw00:38
* macmaN_ sits down in lotus position and starts praying00:39
macmaN_found something that's missing from Store app00:40
macmaN_some sort of an ability to follow a developer00:40
macmaN_"let me know when they have new apps out"00:40
rantomIs it just me or is the vkb in Store different than in e.g. newsflow?00:41
rantomThe @ wasn't in bottom-row in newsflow whereas in Store and email it was00:42
medrimacman_ shouldn't this be done in a separate newsletter from the developer homepage?00:42
ajalkaneOvi music seems nice.00:42
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MohammadAGtill you realize you have to pay in tokens00:43
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macmaN_medri: it should be available anywhere. if the customer cant do it right away on impulse, it's a lost cause. nobody is going to take *any* extra steps for following or whatnot.00:43
medrimacman_ I'm just not sure if it will get messy b/c of too much information00:44
RST38hjavisedro: yohoho! thanks!00:44
macmaN_medri: when you press "All by x", there's plenty of whitespace for a Follow button methinks..00:45
javispedroRST38h: btw, you can start new chats from conversations app just fine00:45
javispedroRST38h: just not from contacts list00:45
macmaN_im quite interested in seeing what skype is gonna be like on harmattan00:45
MohammadAGsame as it was on Fremantle00:46
medrimacman_: maybe ur right, this could be something similar to a rss-feed00:46
RST38hjavispedro: there is a tool for that, called Peregrine, available from Ovi store00:46
MohammadAGthe skype icon in the menu just sends you to contacts00:46
javispedroRST38h: _what?_00:46
RST38hjavisedro: no, really. try it.00:46
macmaN_MohammadAG: ok, thats fine with me00:46
RST38hThe author frequents this channel too00:46
macmaN_MohammadAG: i thought fremantle conversations was the best mobile conversations approach ive ever had00:46
RST38hjavispedro: the app basically shows the contact list, with statuses, and lets you start conversations00:47
javispedrobut the conversations app itself also does that00:47
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javispedroyou just need to tap on the start chat toolbar icon00:47
RST38hWhole thing look like a much nicer looking step back from Maemo5 though =(00:48
* RST38h will go hit the bed00:49
javispedrowth, ovi store.00:49
RST38hMeanwhile: Microsoft will be taking a walled-garden approach to Metro apps, only allowing enterprises and developers to side-load Metro apps in Windows 8, while everyone else will have to go through the Windows Store. Note that this only applies to Metro apps; the model for traditional desktop apps won't change.00:49
javispedroan app called "MeeGo", description "Meego By Linux", costs Eur1.0600:50
javispedroit's on the "top sales" list00:51
rantomMohammadAG: File Manager is still downloadable from outside of Ovi Store as .deb, can't find flashlight thought, now00:51
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MohammadAGis there a way to import vcf files?00:54
javispedrowhat the hell are the ovi store reviews thinking?00:55
khertanExtracting the archive from OneClickFlasher ...00:55
khertanExtracting started at 23:54:2300:55
khertantar: Fin prématurée rencontrée dans l'archive.00:55
khertantar: Fin prématurée rencontrée dans l'archive.00:55
khertantar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now00:55
khertanExtracting the archive from OneClickFlasher ...00:55
khertanExtracting started at 23:54:2300:55
khertantar: Fin prématurée rencontrée dans l'archive.00:55
khertantar: Fin prématurée rencontrée dans l'archive.00:55
khertantar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now00:55
khertanoups sorry ... pastebin script not working00:55
khertanwhat did you use to download the firmware ?00:55
rantomkhertan: Hmm?00:56
MohammadAGsize 592272572 md5sum 6eb05b04842fb9fae2451dc266888eb900:56
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khertan... :(00:56
MohammadAGon the server, axel on my laptop00:56
khertanso blame my isp00:56
khertanMohammadAG: even wget give me wrong size00:57
khertani always got such error in the past with maemo firmware too00:57
khertanlook like a stupid mirror site00:57
khertanmaybe using a proxy will resolv things00:57
kimjuthere seems to be some caching issues within the cdn nokia is using. some nodes give truncated file, some even zero bytes.00:58
khertanyep look like ... wget request report wrong size00:59
khertankimju: this mirror look like worst than the problem they fix00:59
khertanspecially when resume isn't working ...01:00
khertanshutting up now ... optimizing bandwith01:00
khertangood night all01:01
ajalkaneseems slightly faster so far. Of course, might change once I've installed similar amount of apps01:02
javispedroit's slightly slower here01:02
javispedrodragging even on the main screen has a certain "latency"01:03
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ajalkaneForme the old fw was jerky and laggy especially when swiping around app grid. Now its smooth01:16
ajalkaneThe vkb see01:17
ajalkanems to come up snoother also01:17
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SpeedEvilHmm - OK - now I can open accounts - but ovi store does not work01:19
* SpeedEvil fails connecting to the internet.01:20
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javispedroI take back everything negative I said about this beta2 release, it's the best ever.01:48
javispedro(just found out RSS links now open in new windows =) )01:49
vitaminjalso, I've discovered a way to avoid the restore snafu and am happy now01:51
* khertan is waiting erasing, which take a while01:51
khertanthe restore snafu ?01:51
vitaminjrestoring an old backup on the new firmware kills twitter01:52
vitaminjit's something in the gconf restore that does it, but you can easily live without that and get everything else that's restorable (i.e. not contacts or sms logs)01:53
vitaminjyou need to edit in the backup and delete Root\home\user\MyDocs01:53
vitaminjrestore won't restore the old incompatible gconf values, job done01:54
vitaminjonly took 4 flashes to work that out01:54
khertanthx for the tips01:54
* vitaminj shakes fist in a finnwardly direction01:54
vitaminjbut now it's all good01:55
vitaminjI'm even getting the sense that they might have fixed offline map downloading01:55
vitaminjalthough the cdn still insists on trickling the maps at me at an excruciatingly slow pace01:56
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apolis it possible that I lost the "SDK Connectivity" application after the flashing?01:59
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khertanactivate devel mode02:00
khertanand install devel tool :)02:00
khertanit s not installed by default (from what i heard .... still waiting for a while the erasing)02:00
apoldevel mode02:01
apolwhere's that :P02:01
trxapol i found this in Release Notes :02:01
trx* Ensure that USB is in SDK mode (from Settings->Accessories->USB)before02:01
trx  connecting to SDK via USB (or use Always ask mode and then select02:01
trx  SDK mode when connecting with USB)02:01
apolit is02:02
apoli just miss the ap02:02
trxno idea then02:02
trxi dont use it02:02
apolaaah xD02:02
apolI don't have the terminal either XD02:03
artemmaFunny, twitter client doesn't support lists. Can't say about everybody, but I use lists about 99% of time, watching everybody who I follow is nearly useless :)02:03
vitaminjapol: turn devel mode off then on again, it seems you don't have the two apps for whatever reason02:05
apoloh i see02:06
apolprobably the backup app is a little buggy02:06
apolit's installing the stuff now02:06
vitaminjapol: did you restore a backup?02:07
apolvitaminj: yes02:07
vitaminjoh dear02:08
vitaminjdid you want to use twitter02:08
apoli don't care about twitter02:08
vitaminjoh ok cool02:09
vitaminjrestore from old fw clobbers it02:09
apolxD great02:09
vitaminjI've roughly narrowed it down, but not enough to fix a clobbered phone02:09
vitaminjonly to stop the clobbering pre-restore02:09
vitaminjwhere can I put that so that people don't get tripped over restoring backups?02:10
vitaminj... except in the nokia release notes!02:10
vitaminjthere's no specific wiki page or forum thread for this update really is there02:11
apolvitaminj: you can try the n950_landing_page02:12
vitaminjtrue, worth a try I suppose02:12
apolvitaminj: i do have twitter working though02:14
apoli'm not sure what's your problem02:14
vitaminjit won't log in02:14
vitaminjwell, at least for a bunch of us02:14
apoli see02:16
apoli still can't login02:16
vitaminjaside: the map manager has only gone and worked - it's a miracle!02:17
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vitaminjyou should be able to re-enter passwords for all other accounts and have them work, but twitter doesn't02:18
apolvitaminj: I can't login on ssh02:18
apol(sorry -.-)02:18
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apoldoesn't answer either in usb or wifi02:19
apolnow on wifi, no usb :P02:20
vitaminjoh, not sure about that one02:30
vitaminjlet me prod mine with qt creator02:31
vitaminjyep, it's happy - sorry02:33
vitaminjsurely that's not a "restore" issue - I dev mode up and running, inc. the sdk connectivity widget?02:34
infobotvitaminj meant: surely that's not a "restore" issue - is dev mode up and running, inc. the sdk connectivity widget?02:34
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zx2c4new firmware is mazing02:35
alteregoneat, youtube works02:36
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epageI'm calling into a slot and want to add a new page to the page stack with the slot's return value as the model.  Any recommendations, tips, pitfalls for doing this?  I'm trying to set the model through pageStack.push(, {model: model}) but it doesn't seem to take02:57
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nibbleri feel dumb. i can't find the e-mail settings screen.03:15
ieatlintyou do it via accounts03:17
ieatlintaccounts app on the home screen03:17
nibblerah. i missed the obvious. thanks!03:22
Milhouseanyone remember the trick to get contact birthdays to appear in the Calendar?03:23
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ScifigSo now that we have Beta 2, can/should we file bugs for harmattan?06:09
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Stskeepsanyone awake with new firmware?08:14
Stskeepscould you dpkg -l | grep fbdev ?08:14
ieatlintfinds xserver-xorg-video-fbdev08:17
Stskeepswhat version?08:18
ieatlinterr, 0.4.0-258+0m608:20
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Stskeepsand dpkg -l | grep kernel ? :)08:51
specialStskeeps: 2.6.32-20112910+0m608:53
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griAaaah, when will we be able to ignore the 1 million news feed apps on ovi store ... "new applications" is pretty unusable :(09:17
mecewell I suppose we can just one-star them all.09:17
mecewoo, got my contacts imported from ny n900 with sync!09:17
griThey appear faster than we can vote it seems09:17
kulveI tried to read the logs from the couple of last days but it's still unclear if there's a way to restore contacts from the backup-file made before flashing the new fw? Or is the easiest way to flash the old fw, restore backup, export contacts, flash the new fw, restore backup, import contacts?09:18
meceit's not09:18
Stskeepskulve: i'd recommend simply not restoring backup and perhaps export vcf's instead09:18
mecekulve, yeah that's the method09:18
Stskeepsthe schemas have changed in tracker or something09:18
Stskeepsso things really blow up :)09:18
mecekulve, I imported from n90009:18
meceworked on 5th attempt for some reason09:18
meceone attempt actually deleted my N900 contacts.09:19
Stskeepsand backup your n900 contacts too09:19
kulveI've added some contacts after that, but maybe that would still be the easiest way. The few additions I could add manually..09:19
griDid anyone attempt to flash the old fw again? I would like the aegis-developer-mode back09:19
meceI'm sure you can, if you have the image09:19
griWhich I don't have09:19
meceI'd like it too.09:20
mecethe windows version09:20
mecealso, importing old profile breaks twitter client for some reason09:20
meceI mean importing backup made in old firmware09:20
meceis a reflash the only way to get angry birds back?09:21
kulveI really like the feature that I can close the application by sweeping from top to bottom :)09:21
mecethere's also swipe manager in ovi store that enables you to configure what happens when you sweep where09:21
meceswipe even09:21
kulveand the scrolling at least in some places is really smooth now09:21
griso you know where you end up when swiping :)09:21
mecescrolling was smooth before, and it's still smooth, imo.09:22
kulveit was, but now e.g. the application list seems to scroll even smoother. I think the scrolling speed is a bit slower which might affect the feeling as well..09:24
kulveor then I'm just imaginating things :)09:25
mecemight be smoother. I haven't used it that much09:25
kulveI had synced my contacts to my work phone (n900) and now I managed to sync those to my n950, so now I have at least most of my contacts09:29
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mecehmm.. mr id on tmo says he managed to get stuff restored from backup somehow.09:44
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kulveI could "strings" through the contacts from the n950 backup and add manually the few new contacts I had in there09:56
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spenapI don't know if that's the case, but if you have your accounts in Google, you don't need the Google account plugin to get them on the device09:59
spenapthe MfE account can be used for that09:59
spenapand works quite fine09:59
spenapI've been using it without troubles09:59
meceHaha the flasher said "Press enter to exit and remove the cable to reboot... Yo"09:59
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rantomAnyone else noticed that the vibration in new FW is not working properly?10:01
rantomI've set it up to 3 and it's stuck to 110:02
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henpercould someone point me in the right direction? im developing an app for the n950 and i really can't find how to send notifications to the user10:20
henperi found the MNotification class but if i'm not wrong the meego touch library is deprecated?10:20
djszapihenper: yes, it will be, but it is safe to use, if you like that.10:22
hiemanshuhenper: libharmattaneventview10:22
djszapihenper: the vast majority of the Ui is also written in MTF, and even if there were plans (there are not), there would be no resource to rewrite in any near future. :)10:24
Hq`it's not deprecated on harmattan10:24
grihenper: You also might take a look here:
griAnd there are also notifacation classes developed by nullpointer (group or guy?)10:32
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gri(if you're not using meegotouch of course)10:33
khertan1someone know if there is already a font selection dialog made in qml ? i didn't want to reinvent the wheel10:34
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henperbig thanks to you all! this should get me started :)10:40
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henperwhen i try to build libmeegotouch (to use MNotification) i get this error: You are building a 64-bit application, but using a 32-bit version of Qt. Check your build configuration.11:06
henperhow can i force it to build in 32bit?11:06
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djszapihenper: make sure "-m32" is passed to gcc? "QMAKE_CXXFLAGS += -m32" in the pro file might help11:10
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henperstill the same :(11:17
khertan1n950 form factor is so good that it s even didn't need any car holder for navigation :
mecehehe I put mine in the middle of the dashboard, works very well there too :D11:19
macmaN_lolz, thats nice. i bought a n8 car holder, it fits n950 perfectly.11:19
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djszapikhertan1: hehe :)11:21
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mecereally liking the new fw on N950 now that I have got most stuff to work11:21
meceinstalling stuff from ovi atm.11:22
meceand I absolutely love swipe manager!11:22
djszapioh the world changes since yesterday, when the fw was everything but nice ? :)11:22
mecedjszapi, aegis must burn in hell11:23
mecedjszapi, if that's what you're referring to.11:23
mecedjszapi, I never said I didn't like the new firmware. I didn't like losing my contacts tho. things seem to work better after a second reflash though. It was the backup restore that messed it up apparently.11:24
RST38hWell, moo all11:25
macmaN_moo cow rst11:25
mecedjszapi, are you using the same firmware btw?11:25
djszapino, I need gtalk.11:27
meceas do I11:27
mecewhat's the package called?11:27
djszapimece: wasn't the guy you yesterday who had not even the slightest idea what a security framework is good for and asking me and I tried to explain it to you ? Please do not start this again and again up, it is so tiring for both of us. I know windows, android, maemo, meego security experts should burn since they all follow the aegis principles nowadays, but it is not really nice to hear really. On the other hand, people were actually complaining yesterday11:29
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RST38hOh, the djszapi guy is proselytizing again...11:33
RST38hmece: Let us troll him again! =)11:34
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griAnyone knows a sparql browser which can read the tracker-store.journal? Otherwise my contacts may be lost :/11:44
macmaN_ok well this is kinda strange, my n950 seems to have just hung sitting on the desk11:44
macmaN_with standby screen on11:45
macmaN_hm. starting to open hwkbd seems to have taken it out of the funk11:45
djszapigri: afaik there is no journal anymore11:46
macmaN_there needs to be a Clean button next to Refresh on news screen11:46
gridjszapi: That's why the backup did not rewrite my contacts ... but getting them out with a text editor is too much work for me :)11:46
djszapigri: use my command11:47
griwhich is?11:47
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gridjszapi: Since I only have the beta1 backup of my contacts, I can't use vcf import11:49
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djszapigri: not exporting the contact to desktop PC for backup is a really bad idea11:52
gridjszapi: Yep11:53
djszapibut at any rate, you learned the lesson ;)11:53
gridjszapi: Is there a download link for the old beta?11:53
alteregoHas anyone added at least pasting to meego terminal?11:54
kulveis there meego terminal in the new fw? I couldn't find it..11:54
djszapikimju: I figured out the harmattan scheduler kernel details11:55
alteregokulve you need to enable dev mode11:56
khertan1kulve: is there meego terminal in the new fw? I couldn't find it.. <<<< enable devel mode11:56
kimjudjszapi, ok, what was the problem?11:56
kulveI have the developer mode in settings->security set on already11:57
djszapikimju It is that your application is reclassified to run in "applications" cgroups subdomain, and as such: RT CPU time can not be assigned to. However scheduling policy change works fine, if your task is placed into the cgroups root partition (if the process is classified as a system one from the beginning). You can also check it out from the kernel source if you are interested in the details (grep linux/kernel/sched.c for rt_runtime_us to get the answer11:57
khertan1kulve unactivate and activate it again :)11:58
kulveI guess the backup restored the developer mode but it's not the same thing as .. yes, doing that now :)11:58
djszapikimju What I have just done to make it work is this: 1) Add sleep(10) before scheduling policy change 2) Run this from script for instance: echo `pidoff myapp` > /syspart/tasks You can not have RT tasks for applications on Dali by default, that is done deliberately.11:58
alteregoIt needs to download the tools11:58
djszapi*Dali = N950 :p11:58
kulvealthough I guess it would be nice to be able to download the terminal from the store without enabling the developer mode. It's just an application after all..11:59
RST38hkhertan: terminal gets installed when you enable developer mode11:59
RST38hkhertan: ditto for ssh11:59
RST38hkhertan: htop and nano you install manually with apt-get11:59
khertan1RST38h: yes i know12:00
khertan1RST38h: you didn't need to install it manually12:00
khertan1install is possible too with the gui12:01
* RST38h has not seen anything that looks like HAM yet12:01
khertan1htop is in x11 utilities or utilities developper package12:01
khertan1where you have a list of package in devel panel12:02
khertan1just need to click on install button12:02
kulvecut'n'paste is next thing I would like to have in the terminal :)12:02
* RST38h has not seen devel panel with a list of packages12:02
RST38hkulve: there is no cut&paste? (have not tried yet)12:02
khertan1(install didn't works the first four time, but works the fiveth time  :) )12:02
kulveRST38h: no, it changes toolbars in the new fw (and color scheme in the old fw). AFAIK at least..12:03
kulveswipe, that is12:04
djszapigri: I am afraid, link to old beta would not really be usable since it seems 34-2 -> 22-6 downgrade is not possible.12:06
RST38hkulve: mgedmin has been compiling terminal .debs out of git, he may know something about cut&paste there12:07
gridjszapi: Yay, this means no aegis-dev mode, no contacts :) Should have stayed with my old version12:08
griand still no commhistoryd in scratchbox, wohoo12:08
djszapigri: no, you should have followed my export instructions (I think I told it more times)12:09
djszapigri: aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec is gone, but the QtCreator is pretty good for making a skeleton package anyways (I have been told so here since I do not use that myself)12:09
gridjszapi: How do you test on device? Is there a way to create the package and deploy it to the device and start debugging from the scratchbox?12:10
griQtCreator and Madde need about 2 oder 3 minutes from deploy to actual program start when creating a package12:11
grialso madde is missing most libraries which need to be copied from scratchbox12:11
djszapisounds a bug against QtCreator ?12:11
griQtCreator also can't create packages with custom debian folders (which I have)12:12
djszapias for me, I have a skeleton package, and I will use that if I ever use the public image (doubt that)12:12
griscratchbox (the public one) is missing libraries, so development around messaging is a bit complicated12:13
djszapiCan you clarify it please ? I am not getting it in details.12:13
griI need commhistoryd (commhistory-daemon) which is not available in the scratchbox12:14
djszapiwhich is quite ok.12:14
griand it even can't be created since it's having dependencies which are also not available in the scratchbox12:14
djszapiwell, you should really never ever test most of the apps in scratchbox.12:14
griI don't want to test, I want to develop12:15
djszapithat is really not the scope of scratchbox for this.12:15
griin fremantle this worked fine12:15
djszapisorry, I do not understand what "this" means. Seems, I still need more information.12:15
vladestwho knows, wht the phrase "QGLWindowSurface: Flushing to native child widget, may lead to significant performance loss" means?12:16
djszapivladest: you can also ask it on #qt12:16
gridjszapi: This is "using communication history without device"12:16
djszapiI had the impression that is a runtime dependency...12:17
MohammadAGdjszapi, you can get aegis-developer-mode working with the right methods12:17
MohammadAGit's certainly not gone ;)12:17
vladestdjszapi: I can see this only on n950. on e7 there is no such debug output on same code12:17
djszapiMohammadAG: oh ?12:17
griMohammadAG: This would be great12:17
vladestMohammadAG: hi. did you run dmesg already?12:18
djszapiMohammadAG: "djszapi, you can get aegis-developer-mode working with the right methods - it's certainly not gone ;)" -> please bring real meaning into this.12:19
trxvladest its something about graphics system, it(you) failed to create GL based view, so it will use eg. Raster to draw12:19
trxi am not sure tho..12:20
trxthere is something about it in the api, google that message12:20
MohammadAGdjszapi, RM680-34-2_PR_RM680:~# aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec12:21
djszapiwhat is the meaning of this ?12:22
djszapiI still fail to see...12:22
griNo error message12:22
djszapiobviously, we ran the same command :D :D12:22
djszapiso please please provide /proper/ information12:22
griIf he provides it, you'll "fix" it in the next release? :P12:23
djszapigri: I am not making decisions about it.  That is the program manager.12:23
djszapigri: and why fix something which can be worked ?12:23
djszapivladest: are you sure you do not have a native widget in a native widget ?12:23
gridjszapi: Because someone decides we don't need it?12:23
alteregoIs anyone working on a custom kernel?12:24
djszapivladest: it happens e.g. when you call winId() on one of your widgets if the widget is no toplevel widget12:24
djszapigri: where did you get that bullshit from ?12:24
djszapigri: nobody decided afaik that way at all ...12:24
gridjszapi: I only interpreted your answer to dmesg12:24
djszapiit might be just a bug, no need to guess the worst ever about developers immediately..12:24
djszapigri: I think you know dmesg != aegis-developer-mode ;)12:25
vladestit seems the problem with mixing ogl graphicsview with qwidget's12:25
djszapigri: so do not mis-interpret anything, pleeease12:25
hiemanshuw00t, new image wont flash for me12:25
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* vladest found same question in logs of the channell :)12:25
trx[11:24] <djszapi> vladest: are you sure you do not have a native widget in a native widget ? <- why would this generate warnings?12:25
djszapitrx: try out what I said, and you will see.12:26
vladestits strange there is no problems with this on symbian12:27
hiemanshudjszapi: anything you can do help with 'Image wont flash issues'
djszapiwell, if checksum is fine, you followed the general instructions, phonet is loaded, no real clue12:28
djszapiapol could not manage it yesterday either, just from Windows.12:28
vladestdjszapi: so, qwidgetless app can improve the situation?12:31
djszapihiemanshu: I meant to say: phonet is not loaded*, you tried older flasher,  you tried manually, etc...12:31
hiemanshudjszapi: I have a 'while true; do sudo /sbin/modprobe -r cdc_phonet; done' running at all times in another terminal12:32
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TheBootrooi did the update to beta2 but i don't find how to get root12:32
TheBootrooi installed developer tools12:32
djszapivladest: it is not about qwidgets. it is about native qwidgets. a native qwidget is a widget which is backed up by an actual X window. normally this only happens for the toplevel widget which is your window then12:33
TheBootrooi have the terminal12:33
TheBootroobut i can't use dpkg -i12:33
djszapivladest: in some cases qt has to create a native window for qwidget with a parent. this is what this warning is about IIRC.12:33
MohammadAGTheBootroo, same way as always12:33
TheBootrooMohammadAG: thkx12:34
djszapivladest: it happens e.g. if you call winId() instead of effectiveWinId() on a child widget12:34
TheBootroowhat is the password ?12:34
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vladestdjszapi: so, root qmainwindow might be a problem12:35
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djszapivladest: not sure but might be. no idea what qmainwindow does internally but i am not sure if it does the right thing on something like harmattan12:37
vladestdjszapi: thanks. it seems I need some code redesign12:37
djszapiui code, yes12:38
mzanetti_workI just noticed that QDesktopServices::storageLocation() gives the wrong paths on Harmattan. Anyone knows what the correct way to get those directories is?12:38
vladesthope QGraphicsView/Scene will do the trick12:38
hiemanshuso how do I contact about not being able to flash phones?12:38
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djszapimzanetti_work: interesting, it gives the proper one here.12:39
mzanetti_workther "MyDocs" is missing...12:39
djszapihiemanshu: try another distro, or windows...what I would do if it is desperate...12:39
djszapimzanetti_work: ahhh you call that false, ok yes, for sure.12:40
mzanetti_workdjszapi: ?12:40
TheBootroois it me or the theme has slightly changed in beta 2 ? darker toolbar and all ...12:40
hiemanshudjszapi: I have the same error as the old flasher, bb5_rdc_cert read failed12:40
alteregonice, new meego terminal, just needs c&p :)12:40
TheBootrooalterego: it has it12:41
TheBootroooh and nokia pure too12:41
djszapimzanetti_work: I would think that is normal under the current circumstances, the Qt docs does not say anything Harmattan specific either, just Symbian12:41
TheBootrooalterego: just select text, a toolbar appears, click copy, then tap another text field, a toolbar appears with paste button12:42
alteregoTheBootroo: can't seem to, maybe it's the screen session.12:42
alteregoHrm, can't seem to in normal terminal window either12:43
henperi got the MNotification working now! thanks. is it possible to fire a notification at a specific timestamp?12:43
vitaminjmece: (and anyone else having grief) I worked out the best way to restore as much as possible from an old fw backup last night, and wiki'd it here:
alteregohenper: wrap timed?12:43
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mzanetti_workdjszapi: don't really understand... The MusicLocation on the device is /home/user/MyDocs/Music but QDesktopServices::storageLocation(MusicLocation) gives me /home/user/Music... This doesn't seem right to me...12:45
mzanetti_workdjszapi: Not sure what you mean with "under the current circumstances"12:46
djszapimzanetti_work: well, does the Qt documentation mention anything special apart from Symbian ?12:46
djszapiI do not see anything like that, so it is expected.12:46
djszapiif they would return different one, they would document it that way.12:46
MohammadAGmzanetti_work, that's the actual correct directory as set by standard guidelines12:46
MohammadAGsadly harmattan doesn't use it12:46
mzanetti_workdjszapi: The docs say that it returns the systems directory where files of "type" belong. Which is clearly wrong in this case12:47
mzanetti_workdjszapi: IMO a bug12:47
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MohammadAGit's a simple fix really12:48
djszapimzanetti_work: not sure what your point is. Everybody knows it is a bug12:48
MohammadAGbut it has to be fixed in Qt12:48
djszapiwhat I was referring to is that it is expected since they did not work on it yet12:48
alteregoTheBootroo: nope, doesn't work for me, don't like the loss of colour changing either :(12:48
djszapiof course, returning the wrong address is wrong ,but expected without investigation...12:48
djszapifeel free to patch Qt ;)12:49
MohammadAGand get the new package rejected by aegis12:49
alteregowell at least it's accessible via the menu.12:51
djszapimzanetti_work: ./src/gui/util/qdesktopservices_{mac,win,x11,s60}.cpp what I can see there only anyways12:51
djszapimzanetti_work: 218     case MusicLocation:12:53
djszapi219         path = QDir::homePath() + QLatin1String("/Music");12:53
djszapithat is what you need modify12:53
mzanetti_workdjszapi: oh... thanks... that helps a lot12:55
djszapimzanetti_work: though, you would probably not get it in before Qt5 which might not available on Harmattan, so chicken-egg issue, but feel free to discuss it on #qt-labs12:56
griAngry Birds segfaults when running under develsh :)12:58
artemmaachipa: for the record. When you are into mood for timed research, I can meet virtually at any place and any time. Coffee is on me (but not today on the meegofi gathering :( )13:05
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griAnd push the nokia-own push notification example is still not working, even on beta2 fw13:05
achipaok, have plenty of stuff at work so prolly will not have too much time(d) today :(13:05
artemmaachipa: any time includes today, tomorrow, day after tomorrow, etc :)13:06
artemmahey, achipa, what if I craft a simple compilable example for you that just doesn't work (and maybe a similar one that successfully simulates a calendar event). Would it help you with a quickstart?13:07
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vladestok, reworked test app from qmainwindow to qgraphicsview but no luck. still same:13:09
mecevitaminj, cool, thanks. I've gotten most things working now though.13:09
vladestQGLWindowSurface: Using plain widget as window surface QGLWindowSurface(0x75660)13:10
vladesthijackWindow() context created for QWidget(0x54850) 213:10
vladestQGLWindowSurface: Flushing to native child widget, may lead to significant performance loss13:10
vladestweird that there is no any qwidget around13:10
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elpurivladest: QGraphicsView inherits from QWidget13:15
grivladest: Did you run your application once with "-graphicssystem opengl" or even "meego" instead of opengl?13:17
khertan1did you have also an SIM Service application ?13:22
khertan1with the name of your operator ?13:22
meceis there a way to set the name of the service with mc-tool? name of the gtalk service show up empty13:22
khertan1gtalk ?13:22
khertan1mece: thx :)13:23
frals<3 aegis13:25
fralsobscure bugs? blame aegis!13:25
fralshm, this was the wrong window. bah :p13:26
fralshm, whats this mc-tool?13:28
achipasome wannae-musician accessory13:28
fralsand is gabble generic xmpp plugin? would be neat if it works with my own xmpp server...13:28
Stskeepstelepathy mission control13:28
fralsachipa: :D13:28
hiemanshuso how do I contact about my device unable to flash and failing with bb5_rdc_cert_read failed ?13:29
hiemanshuachipa, Stskeeps ^13:29
Stskeepshiemanshu: do a cold flash13:29
achipawhat he says ^13:30
hiemanshuk trying cold flash13:30
hiemanshuStskeeps: sudo ./flasher --erase-user-data=secure -c -fF img.bin -Femmc.bin will do it?13:32
fralsah right, images extracted from the OCF13:33
Stskeepshiemanshu: right13:33
Stskeepsachipa: who do we have to blame for removing the fiasco unpack functionality from flasher anyway?13:33
hiemanshuStskeeps: failing :(13:34
achipayou can blame me for the removal of the howtos which ere guaranteed to brick your device, but not the fiasco unpack - no siree, that's not me13:34
Stskeepshiemanshu: host machine == ?13:35
achipaand we all know flasher is... special13:35
hiemanshuStskeeps: openSuSE 11.413:35
Stskeepshiemanshu: 64 or 32?13:35
hiemanshu64 6413:35
fralsflasher is awesome13:36
hiemanshufile flasher; \flasher: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped13:36
Stskeepshiemanshu: can you try 32 variant by chance?13:36
hiemanshuhmm, I have no 32 bit distro around here, all my machines are 64 :/13:37
fralsi havent cold flashed my device for a while, but shouldnt it fill in the HWID and stuff there?13:37
Stskeepshiemanshu: livecd?13:38
tommasomething wrong with oneclickflasher on 64bit linux?13:39
khertan1tomma:  except crappy server for download which truncate sometime the file on some mirror13:39
hiemanshuStskeeps: lemme check if I have an handy13:40
khertan1i didn't have any problem13:40
tommathat was first thing on my mind but still problems after 3 download =/13:40
khertan1yeah i retry 20 times without success, for finnaly using a proxy to avoid their cache proximity mirror13:41
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hiemanshuStskeeps: the only 32 bit one is openSuSE 10.3 :/13:41
khertan1you got a file of 488Mb, isn't it ?13:42
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kimjuis there someone here who could get the cdn refreshed, so all nodes would have the full file, not the truncated one?13:44
hiemanshukimju: there are other mirrors for it too :P13:46
hiemanshukimju: or override /etc/hosts file13:46
kimjuwell, I got the file already yesterday.13:47
kimjubut still would be nice if the official download site would work :)13:48
hiemanshusome mirrors work, some dont yeah13:48
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meceoo skype, nice :)13:54
artemmafor N950?13:55
artemmahow do you get it?13:55
mecetrial and error :)13:55
Stskeepssleeping with nokia employees until you found someone willing to give the debs to you?13:56
hiemanshuStskeeps: would trying a 32 bit kernel make a difference, or download a distro livecd?13:56
Stskeepshiemanshu: distro livecd is probbly more likely13:57
hiemanshuStskeeps: downloading Damn Small Linux then D13:57
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vladestgri: Using the meego graphics system14:00
vitaminjmece: are you meddling with remote device access by any chance?14:01
mecevitaminj, no haven't tried that14:10
TheBootrooi try14:11
DocScrutinizer(<hiemanshu> file flasher; \flasher: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped)  DUH, how's OCF going to work on 32bit engines when the flasher is a 64bit executable14:13
mecethis device just got a whole lot more usable for me :)14:13
meceTheBootroo, no ui to initiate skype calls etc. It's just the chat. Still it's what I use the most :)14:13
TheBootroomece: contacts import too ?14:14
mecehmm.. I guess so.14:14
DocScrutinizermece: I'd be terribly interested in knowing filetype of any skype related executable stuff.14:15
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DocScrutinizerthe "genuine" skype executable is a self-decrypting abomination. I'd not at all be surprised if skype devels used aegis for decrypting skype executables on HARM14:16
DocScrutinizerafter all that's the main and only true purpose of aegis14:17
meceDocScrutinizer, well it's a telepathy plugin14:17
DocScrutinizerhmm, doesn't matter14:18
meceDocScrutinizer, the skype ui is not there afaict14:18
w00tthe UI is there, if you have an accounts plugin for it14:18
DocScrutinizerthere has to be the whole auth stack skype is using anyway14:18
mecew00t, well yeah, but we don't obviously.14:18
w00tmece: perhaps, but you could try write one :)14:18
mecew00t, meh. Too complicated for me.14:19
ajalkanewow, got mem low warning on new fw. Never saw one in earlier14:19
mecew00t, you don't think we'll be getting official skype plugin for n950?14:19
DocScrutinizerand auth is one of the thinks skype is very concerned about to keep it obfuscated and "secure" and "safe"14:19
w00tmece: no idea14:19
DocScrutinizerso in14:19
tommaseems like downloading oneclickflasher works if you use chinese proxy...14:19
infoboti guess aegis is , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
w00tmece: but it'd enable use of it right now14:20
DocScrutinizerthe "make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment." part is exactly applying to skype14:20
mecew00t, well I guess there are some people with skills to pull that off. Unfortunately I'm not one of them14:20
meceDocScrutinizer, like N900 :D14:20
vitaminjajalkane: I got that too, but in the maps app downloading offline maps. I just assumed it was being stupid and doing the unzip in memory14:21
DocScrutinizerif not even skype is actually *using* the main function of aegis which is "make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment."" - HELL why T F we need aegis then at all?14:22
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hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: that is on a 64 bit system, I am download a 32 bit distro and will use the 32 bit flasher, see the error message :P14:23
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: where from is that 64bit flasher?14:23
DocScrutinizerand where from is that 32bit flasher?14:23
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: from the OCF14:23
vladesthmm. QCameraViewfinder takes 3 times cpu less then qgraphicsvideoitem14:24
DocScrutinizerduh, so OCF comes with two flavours of flasher binary?14:24
hiemanshuyup ofc :P14:24
artemma<stupud-question-about-aegis> If it doesn't allow random binaries to be run, why can I run files compiled by QtCreator? I didn't fill any manifest and can't see one in the build dirs </stupid-question-about-aegis>14:25
* DocScrutinizer does a >> less Linux_OCF_34-2_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin <<14:25
meceartemma, it creates a deb and installs it14:25
mecelol DocScrutinizer14:25
MohammadAGanyone using the N9 on RDA?14:26
artemmamece, I still don't see any manifest inside the build dir (that to my understanding is used for building deb)14:26
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, Aegis checks if skyhost is signed and such14:26
MohammadAGif you replace it it won't work14:26
MohammadAGof course, that's pointless14:26
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: well, that's not been the question though14:26
meceartemma, tbh i have no idea about that. Seems to work fine tho.14:27
ajalkanevitaminj: the funny thing is, I had only like dozen windows open. Well, have to check later what takes up the mem14:27
artemmaMy real question is whether I need to put special care if I want my binaries to be started by another processes (by timed daemon to be precise). I have a suspicion that it may be aegis restrictions that don't allow my binary to be started14:28
vitaminjartemma: it auto creates one and packages it in the deb. if you look at the build log you can see when it does it. it looks through your source to guess what permissions you might need. you can create a file to overwrite the auto-generated one if you see fit14:29
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artemmavitaminj: thx14:29
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DocScrutinizerdang ;-P14:50
snowpongstrange the N950 beta2 firmware seems corrupt for linux (I get EOF when extracting). Anyone downloaded a working version? What is the filesize?14:52
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SpeedEvilfor many14:53
SpeedEvil-rwxr-xr-x 1 user users 592272572 2011-09-19 14:51 Linux_OCF_34-2_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin14:53
kimju Linux_OCF_34-2_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin size: 592272572 bytes, md5sum: 6eb05b04842fb9fae2451dc266888eb914:54
DocScrutinizer better14:54
TheBootroosnowpong: me14:54
TheBootroolinux 32 bits, fully working14:54
SpeedEvilSame sum as kimju14:54
snowpongTheBootroo: filesize if you still got the .bin there?14:55
snowpongkimju: thanks14:55
* snowpong trying with wget instead of firefox14:56
TheBootroo564,8 MB (592272572 bytes)14:56
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snowpongSame result, right now if I DL from with either wget/firefox I get size:  513552235 md5: 8975ef7f7c4c3bd4b76ba25a6505d0be14:59
kimjudjszapi, hey, can you poke someone to refresh the firmware images on the content delivery network. some nodes are still giving truncated files15:00
djszapikimju: nope, sorry15:00
SpeedEvilDo you know who the appropriate contact would be?15:00
djszapimece: google and google-talk were removed on purpose, it cannot be put back15:02
mecedjszapi, ok15:03
TheBootroodjszapi: but why ?  (gg and gtlak ?15:04
mecedjszapi, anty particular reason?15:04
infobotmece meant: djszapi, any particular reason?15:04
djszapimece: I cannot say, it is NDA, sorry.15:04
emanDid someone hear manage to get the new firmware installed using F15? The flasher would bomb out on flashing the images (erasing worked fine). In the end I had to use an old F11 box15:04
emanergh  s/hear/here/15:05
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djszapieman: actually someone had told you yesterday :)15:05
emandjszapi: Yep, I just wanted to check what kernel version they were using...15:05
emanAnyway, all working after lots of mucking around15:06
djszapiarcean: ^15:06
macmaN_mece: thanks for the skype account writeup on wiki :>15:08
MohammadAGSkype UI from N9 works15:09
macmaN_just enabled it15:09
MohammadAGno aegis hacks necessary15:09
MohammadAGmacmaN_, no15:09
MohammadAGyou used mc-tool15:09
MohammadAGI used the Accounts app :P15:09
macmaN_oh, right right15:09
macmaN_where did you get the pkgs again for that?15:09
MohammadAGpackages? just scp's them from the N9 on RDA15:09
MohammadAGthey're working again, reverse ssh is easy now15:10
hiemanshuStskeeps: still a no-go, same darned thing :/15:10
Stskeepshiemanshu: interesting15:10
Stskeepshiemanshu: bad USB cable?15:10
hiemanshunope, this has always worked before15:10
hiemanshuStskeeps: and I can flash the older 22-6 image just fine, the newer version of the 22-6 image wouldn't flash either, with the same error15:11
macmaN_MohammadAG: ah right rightgood thinking15:11
macmaN_but regarding mc-tool, how do i get the account not to be faceless15:12
macmaN_fb has big Facebook and account name below it15:12
hiemanshuStskeeps: what do I do now? :/15:12
Stskeepshiemanshu: panic?15:12
MohammadAG macmaN_15:13
hiemanshuStskeeps: already am :P15:13
macmaN_MohammadAG: ok thats gangsta15:13
macmaN_what does mc-tool show <skypeacct> give you (skip the password)15:13
macmaN_i dont think i am able to go fetching the package from the RDA right now15:14
MohammadAGpassword isn't shown15:14
MohammadAGAccount: spirit/skype/mohammad96300 Normalized: mohammad9630 Enabled: enabled Icon: im-skype Connects: automatically Nickname: Moe Abu-Garbeyyeh Service: skype Automatic: available (2) Current: offline (1) Requested: available (2) (uint) CredentialsId = 8 (string) account = mohammad963015:14
djszapihiemanshu: why don't you try out other distro, os ?15:15
hiemanshudjszapi: tried other distro, downloading the windows one to try that out15:16
djszapiwindows worked oob for apol, but arch did not.15:16
kkitoMohammadAG: is the N9 touchscreen working on rda?15:16
MohammadAGkkito, yes, they even had a notice about it15:17
meceMohammadAG, mine is the same, but now account is faceless, as macmaN_ said.15:17
kkitoMohammadAG: :)15:17
hiemanshuMohammadAG: what was the notice?15:17
macmaN_mc-tool approach also doesnt seem to integrate with contacts much15:17
macmaN_perhaps the accounts ui does some extra tricks too15:17
TheBootrooMohammadAG: how can i get skype and gtalk ui from RDA ?15:18
mecemacmaN_, yeah I think you need plugin to get the proper buttons in contacts15:18
MohammadAGmece, cause you don't have account-plugin-skype installed15:18
hiemanshunice now the phone is constantly rebooting!15:19
meceMohammadAG, 's what I meant15:19
MohammadAGmece, you get a chat/call button combo + a button under that for calling to phone15:19
mecehiemanshu, how'd you manage that?15:19
hiemanshumece: nokia did it, stupid flasher wouldn't flash, and phone wont turn off, no matter what I do :/15:19
kkitoMohammadAG: but are you able to download packages with apt-get on RDA or just retrieve the files one by one?15:19
TheBootrooMohammadAG: you mean nokia RDA has packages, not only binaries ,15:20
MohammadAGkkito, cat the list file, cp files, cp back15:20
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TheBootrooMohammadAG: can you edit the wiki with that ?15:21
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: press&hold power button for >10s15:21
macmaN_ok took a look at the RDA system15:21
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: no dice15:21
macmaN_i think i will take a shot at it later15:21
leinir*grumble* they still haven't fixed my local mirror ;)15:22
macmaN_strange thing was somebody just sent me an sms but messages just disappear from Messages15:22
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: get a TorX4 and open it, remove battery ;-P15:22
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: its at home, and I am at work right now :P15:22
DocScrutinizererr wut? you're flashing it remote?15:22
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: the TorX4 :P15:23
DocScrutinizermeh XP15:23
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: expect killed battery then15:24
hiemanshuyup :/15:24
DocScrutinizerbattery is expensive15:24
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: you didn't follow achipa's unboxing HowTo15:25
hiemanshumeh, I am planning on returning the phone15:25
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: I did15:25
macmaN_ok seriously, something is not right with Messages. sms just disappear for me.15:25
DocScrutinizerso the screws have to be "lost" now15:25
macmaN_actually everything disappears.15:25
hiemanshua better option would be to just leave it in a bar :P15:26
macmaN_have you guys received texts on the phone yet?15:26
macmaN_with new fw15:26
specialmacmaN_: I have15:26
ajalkaneyeah just got one, doesnt disappear15:26
macmaN_messages shows up in the list, then when i press it to view, screen is empty15:26
macmaN_going back, message disappears from list view15:27
macmaN_Sep 20 15:24:32 (none) applifed[874]: Application '' returned to prestarted state15:29
macmaN_Sep 20 15:24:41 (none) applifed[874]: Application '' released from prestarted state, count=315:29
macmaN_Sep 20 15:24:43 (none) applifed[874]: Application '' released from prestarted state, count=115:29
macmaN_Sep 20 15:24:53 (none) applifed[874]: Application '' returned to prestarted state15:29
macmaN_what the heck are these15:29
ajalkaneI'm getting low memory warnings but mem analyze shows mem usage below 60%. Oh well, doesn't matter much. Maybe reboot will solve the problem15:29
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: haha, I just ran the flasher and Charging battery, 0 % battery level (11 % required). Ctrl-c to exit :D15:29
mecemy texts work just fine15:29
macmaN_gonna reboot it15:31
djszapihiemanshu: yes, flashing is energy consuming15:31
macmaN_ouch! contacts database is completely empty after reboot.15:34
macmaN_now messages are also staying15:34
macmaN_oh man, this is bad15:34
macmaN_now i def wish i had used cp instead of mv in my vcardconverter loop15:35
macmaN_wonder if mc-tooling fubared it15:35
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alteregoMohammadAG: where did you get skype from?15:37
macmaN_RDA device15:37
hiemanshumacmaN_: the ChangeLog for 34-2 was, everything is faster, but nothing works :P15:37
RST38hHah! Qt Challenge strikes again!15:37
RST38hHow many of these are in progress now?15:38
artemmaBTW, does anybody know *any* feedback channel for Qt Challenge?15:38
djszapiqgil for instance15:38
artemmaI have some questions about rules and the only way of contacting that I could imaging is to create a fake submission :)15:39
artemmaoh, so he is related to it15:39
macmaN_i did a tracker database reset today, could that have affected contacts?15:39
artemmagood to know15:39
artemmadjszapi: th15:39
arcean_djszapi: pong15:39
djszapiartemma: he answered all my related questions15:39
djszapiarcean_: eman was asking about F15 kernel version15:39
mecewe did open a channel to qtchallenge when the first email was sent out. I forget who it was tho.15:39
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macmaN_crapity crap. i feel stupidish for losing my contacts after all and having no backup.15:48
macmaN_guess i could call this a pruning experience15:48
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lizardohas anyone tested the "unseal.ko" hack on the new Linux_OCF_34-2_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin ? does it still work? (still downloading the image so I could not verify myself)15:50
kkitolizardo: It seems that aegis relaxed mode is not working wih the new fw15:52
lizardokkito: you mean, it does not provide the necessary "sys_module" capability for allowing to load kernel modules?15:53
kkitolizardo: i don't know, ask to djszapi or javispedro, they know more about aegis than me15:57
emanarcean_: Thanks. For some reason, the flash updater wouldn't work for me on two F15 systems using that same version. Had to use an old F11 box to flash phone.15:57
djszapilizardo: no we do not ship that credential anymore, not even in ovi store.15:57
djszapithat was just an implementation bug in the old image.15:58
lizardodjszapi: thanks, I suspected that, just wanted to confirm the fix was on that image :)15:58
kkitodjszapi: then it will be not possible to load "custom"  kernel modules ?15:59
djszapikkito: it is not possible, so was it not on N90016:00
arcean_eman: IIRC it failed after erasing emmc?16:01
RST38hmece: You know there is a new qtchallenge now? :)16:01
emanarcean_: Yep. dmesg contained: usb_submit_urb returned -12116:02
lizardodjszapi: well, it has been a nice hack to use locally, but I agree that for ovi store this cannot be allowed (because it is too easy to brick the device)16:02
meceRST38h, oh16:02
kkitodjszapi: and booting the device with custom kernel?16:02
mecekkito, that's obviously doable. We have MeeGo CE16:03
djszapilizardo: exactly, and the management rejected our developer signing opportunity which could ship that use case for you.16:03
SpeedEvilYes, it was, if you compiled the module approprtely djszapi -
djszapikkito: of course, you can boot your own kernel, I even gave so many hints previously.16:03
djszapiSpeedEvil:  :D :D :D16:04
djszapiyou can do the same with Harmattan with /no/ issue as I said couple of times :)16:04
arcean_eman: I have no idea, but it sounds like a bug in libusb16:05
SpeedEvildjszapi: Compiling a module, not the new kernel16:05
SpeedEvildjszapi: It was possible to compile a module and install it to stock kernel on n900, as I understand it.16:05
meceheh I restored my pictures and videos to the device and damn, there were a lot of them it turns out :D16:05
SpeedEvilSee above page. It's possible above page may be misleading, of course.16:06
lardmanhmm, anyone else seeing updates?16:06
djszapimmm, reittiopas application would be nice for N9 in case of Finnish people.16:06
djszapiSpeedEvil: you can compile your stuff and you can make your own kernel16:07
djszapithe modification is fairly simple and actually trivial.16:07
SpeedEvildjszapi: I was addressing the 'you can't load modules on n900 comment of yours earlier.16:08
SpeedEvil(I may have misinterpreted you)16:08
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, that point is that you cannot have it without own kernel version after all16:09
djszapiand it is really the same for Harmattan, except that (since it has a security framework), it requires minor modification.16:09
SpeedEvildjszapi: As I understand it, it was possible on n900/freemantle.16:10
djszapiso why different power kernel version then ?16:10
SpeedEvilBecause the dev chose to do that - and some bits - oveclocking? - can't be added with modules.16:11
hiemanshuStskeeps: interesting :P16:11
SpeedEvilSome things normally - on a desktop or any system - can be added, some require a new kernel.16:11
Stskeepshiemanshu: add a -c to that16:11
SpeedEvil(or evil hacks to patch the old kernel, which are not generally sane)16:11
djszapiSpeedEvil: it would not really work here since you need to modify the kernel itself, since aegis is not module.16:12
ajalkaneGreat! Shell update brought arrows to vkb and multiple windows!16:12
djszapibut if I can inject any module into the N900 kernel, then thanks for pointing me out with another huge security hole.16:12
SpeedEvilSure. There are many other things for which loading a module would be nice though, in principle.16:12
SpeedEvilFor example, andother one I was wanting today - gadget driver to use the device as a webcam16:13
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hiemanshuStskeeps: the same thing, and now it wont stop rebooting :P16:13
lizardodjszapi, SpeedEvil : N900 is just a regular linux system with regards to security, meaning that being root you can do anything, including loading modules16:14
djszapiSpeedEvil: we wanted to create a safe platform with our ideas, not a hacker platform.16:14
djszapilizardo: yes, we know :)16:14
SpeedEvildjszapi: yes, I know. I was just addressing your comment that it was impossible on n900, when it wasn't.16:14
djszapiSpeedEvil: we did not clearly target hackersas the main point.16:14
* snowpong read the total number of N9s to be shipped was 91k is that true? 16:15
djszapiSpeedEvil: okay, sorry for that. It was my impression because of the power kernel. However it turns out even worse after all since I had even worse impression about N900 and how easy to abuse it.16:15
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fluxdjszapi, well, power kernel package installs a new kernel, isn't that like total ownership of the device anyway?-)16:16
lizardodjszapi: anyway, I'm aware of them hassle internally and externally regarding "aegis + developers", and the fact that this is a non-reversible management decision, but it should be made clear to anyone that harmattan's aegis still has "capability holes" in it16:17
lizardoyou just need to... poke around16:17
hiemanshuStskeeps: so the error is as soon as cmt-mcusw is finished, anyidea what that is?16:18
SpeedEvilAegis only makes sense on the predicate that there are people actually reading the capability lists for ovi apps.16:18
SpeedEvilI wonder if this is true.16:18
fralsSpeedEvil: is it even possible to see list of credentials the app in ovi asks for?16:19
* RST38h yawns and asks what is new and exciting16:19
SpeedEvil(or at least, that the ovi application process is bulletproof in tying an app to a real-life dev.16:19
lizardoI actually never understood why the user is not prompted for which capabilities an application is trying to use... For me If I download "pacman" and it requires reading my SMS, I would like to know about it16:20
fralshiemanshu: cmt-mcusw sounds like cellmodem.. did you happen to have anything except the publicly available images on your device at some point?16:20
SpeedEvilThat too, yes.16:20
RST38hAh, HP has just laid off 525 webOS hw developers16:20
hiemanshufrals: nope, just 22-6 and this 34-2 now16:20
Stskeepshiemanshu: are you downgading?16:20
StskeepsRST38h: hw or sw?16:20
RST38hStskeeps: hw16:20
hiemanshuStskeeps: nope, trying to flash 34-2 on one that was on 22-616:20
SpeedEvil525 hw? wow.16:20
StskeepsRST38h: [url?16:20
RST38hStskeeps: sw people are kinda safe, for now16:21
hiemanshufrals: there was a newer version of 22-6 that wouldn't flash either, I had to use the older version of 22-6 (got it from doc) to get it to flash16:22
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djszapiflux: who said it is not total ownership ?16:27
djszapilizardo: what holes ? Please clarify.16:27
fluxdjszapi, nobody. but it's just as easy to have a module that owns the machine or a whole kernel, except that the latter will be bigger and require a reboot - which I don't really consider to be a biggie16:28
flux(both things can come in a debian package)16:28
djszapifrals: it is not just possible, b ut requirement c16:28
djszapifrals: that is what Android already did better than us. Of course I would like to see if I download something what credentials it could require16:28
djszapithat is really a fairly very fundamental minimum thing.16:28
djszapilizardo: not sure why you try to think we made this platform for 100-200 developers instead of million, userbase, that is16:29
djszapiprovinding the safest phone them ever.16:29
lizardodjszapi: the platform gives capabilities to various applications, thus relying on them not "leaking" these capabilities for other purposes. Add that to the fact that you have root access and you can subvert some app to giving the capability to another process16:30
SpeedEvildjszapi: Sure. The platform was designed in the expectation of tens of millions or more handsets.16:30
SpeedEvilThe likelyhood of tens of millions of n9s selling - seems not very big.16:30
hiemanshudjszapi: the safest phone is my Nokia 1100, please brick that :D16:30
djszapiSpeedEvil: it does not matter what the current status is16:30
djszapiSpeedEvil: since we did not know this and maemo was a great platform (the best ever for mobile phones), and we planned it many years ago, this is really a weak arguement16:31
SpeedEvilAt some point you cross the line where annoyance to devs is more important than the safeyty of users.16:31
SpeedEvilIf you don't have the apps - safe or not - the users won't come.16:31
SpeedEvilWhere that point is is another question of course.16:31
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djszapilizardo: not sure what you mean, sorry.16:32
djszapiSpeedEvil: seriously, I am not getting you.16:32
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vitaminjSpeedEvil: It's only the annoyance of devs that are trying to do really hardcore linux things though - normal mass-consumer "apps" are unhindered - the qt creator experience makes aegis pretty transparent16:32
djszapiSpeedEvil: I ported about 50-60 packages without any issue16:33
djszapiwithout the need to touch any aegis stuff.16:33
lizardodjszapi: I'm discussing about fundamental architecture weakness (IMHO, of course), I'm still going to experiment with the new firmware to confirm it in practice :)16:33
SpeedEvildjszapi: If you reduce the pool of devs, by making the platform inconvenient to dev for (I'm not arguing that this is the case), then you reduce the likelyhood that there will be any users to be secure.16:33
djszapilizardo: thanks for your lovely constructive words.16:33
SpeedEvilIn the case of aegis - it - mostly - doesn't get in the way of most apps.16:33
djszapiwithout knowing it, but architecturally weakness...16:33
SpeedEvilI'd possibly argue it should, ore.16:34
vladestany1 updated devtools on yours n950?16:34
djszapiok I am gone, I need to work16:34
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lizardodjszapi: AFAIK, android does not allow root access as we do. Yes, the root is capped in many ways on harmattan, but it is still capable of important things, like moving files around and creating new ones16:34
* artemma wonders what SpeedEvil would say about Apple convenience for devs :) 16:34
SpeedEvilartemma: And in some cases, convenience doesn't matter. If you've got enough mindshare, devs will bend over and take it.16:34
MohammadAGlizardo, it allows it more16:35
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artemmaSpeedEvil: so now we got to mindshare :)16:35
MohammadAGthe fact you can boot another OS out of the box on the Samsung Galaxy II is amazing16:35
lizardodjszapi is not about talking much it seems :) anyway, looks like I have to show my point in practice... let's see tonight16:35
artemmaSeveral super clear and useful device experiences for a particular target market is important. Like, you know, BlackBerry's email for example16:36
artemmathen devs will try to follow16:36
artemmathey certainly may still fail, but they will try16:36
RST38hMohammad: Still no access to the phone part though?16:36
lizardoMohammadAG: you mean , android allows accessing as root even on "locked" devices ?16:37
DocScrutinizer(<djszapi> provinding the safest phone them ever.  ) PFFFF beat my 621016:37
MohammadAGnot sure, I'm talking about Samsung's stuff16:37
lizardoI thought each process had its own user, or something like that16:37
DocScrutinizerooh hiemanshu said that already16:37
artemmalizardo: sometimes Androids are veeery easy to unlock. Samsung Galaxy has the unlock code right in the file system. Easily accessible to anybody who can open a file from the file system16:38
kkiton9 will be the safest phone ever because no cracker want to crack a device that there are less than 100.000 units worldwide :P16:39
lizardoartemma: interesting. In this case, It is not *that* locked as I thought (I thought it was an Iphone like beast, with clever hacks to jailbreak it). Which is nice for me actually :) I like N900 way of doing things (i.e. no jailbreak at all)16:40
RST38hartemma: I just hope their galaxy Note will have unlock code at the same place then =)16:41
djszapiN9lizardo android security is nowhere to aegis16:41
djszapiN9lizardo same applies on their sec. docs16:42
RST38hgood, don't need "security"16:42
DocScrutinizerno, it's in fact a bit better regarding the purpose of allowing user to decide what's a threat and what isn't16:42
djszapiN9lizardo however they started copying things quite a while ago16:43
DocScrutinizerand android had true unlocked developer devices from very beginning - they didn't think of devels like "the most evil scum of users and that's the dudes we need to protect the device from"16:44
djszapiN9(or figuring out themselves that is the of going how we did)16:44
djszapiN9lizardo ^16:44
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vladestkkito: dont repeate murtazin's BS plz16:45
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kkitoanyways, there are scam apps into the ovi store right now.16:48
kkitoi don't know why to worry about user security, when in the official store you can get scammed16:49
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djszapikkito: that is the point yes, that is why security16:50
DocScrutinizerkkito: that's because aegis *is not about user security*16:50
djszapiand not just human people checking the sources manually. You revealed the person of the whole stuff.16:50
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SpeedEvilI do wonder if there are any apps on device that would not be there but for aegis.16:51
SpeedEvilAlso - is flash in latest images?16:51
DocScrutinizerno, and no16:51
snowpongon the N950, other have issues with cpu load and scrolling a qml listview - getting 70% CPU load here which is ridiculous - this is code that runs fine for N8 for example16:51
RST38hsnowpong: doesn' tthis depend on what your delegate is doing?16:52
RST38hbecause that is what gets called to generate new list items16:52
snowpongRST38h: sure, but we trimmed those to be OK for N8 performance, meaning they should fly on N950 no?16:52
djszapiSpeedEvil: people saying "I can decide what is malware on my system and what not" are just hilarious seriously :D16:53
* snowpong is wondering if some magic settings/flags needs to be set on TLW16:53
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elpurisnowpong: probably related to the opengl graphics backend16:53
DocScrutinizerpeople saying "djszapi will decide what's malware and I'm happy with it" are truly hilarious16:54
elpurii remember someone complaining about the same thing on #qt-qtml when he ran some super simple test on n90016:54
djszapiSpeedEvil: but sure, you can buy windows, and you can decide xD xD xD16:54
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elpurilike animating two small rectangles and it caused something like 60-70% load16:54
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RST38hsnowpong: in theory, yes16:54
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snowpongelpuri: so, this is _supposed_ to be like this?16:56
SpeedEvildjszapi: Aegis is only meaningful security for users, if the app-store actually vets every app.16:57
snowpongelpuri: I'm pretty sure the graphicssystem used is meego16:57
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SpeedEvildjszapi: otherwise it doesn't help them at all.16:57
snowpong(which I guess is OpenGL ES2.0 based)16:57
SpeedEvil(at least vets the capabilities)16:57
DocScrutinizerthe ONLY malware I've ever seen on any unix machine been cherry courtesy Nokia - aegis is about ensuring we can't stop them in future like we did with fremantle-cherry16:57
SpeedEvilSame here - the only app that's actually broken the law on my device is from nokia.16:58
SpeedEvil(cherry - premium rate SMS)16:58
djszapiSpeedEvil: nope, exactly the opposite.16:58
djszapiactually aegis was a completely automated way of a security thing...16:58
RST38hSpeedEvil: I think djszapi knows better16:58
djszapiOVI store "manual" check happened to be because of there was not enough energy put into the automated way iirc16:59
RST38hSpeedEvil: He talks like he knows better, so why don't you let him decide which applications are breaking law on your phone?16:59
* RST38h cackles16:59
SpeedEvildjszapi: you're missing the point. Aegis allows capabilities that the user would not normally expect in - say - a 'connect 4' game. But may desire in other apps.16:59
DocScrutinizerRST38h: that's pretty clear, djszapi knows everything16:59
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nibbleri'd like to rather see some security framework that helps me protecting my private keys and stuff. not there either, or can aegis be used for that?17:00
djszapiSpeedEvil: I was sitting there on that meeting where we decided which credentials to allow in OVI store :D :D17:00
SpeedEvildjszapi: Unless there is a means for screening which apps get which credentials, or OVI store signup ties the app to a legally responsible entity, it's meaningless unless you accept the idea that all apps should have the same access.17:00
DocScrutinizerGREAT, no the world is safe17:00
fralsaha, the workaround for gtalk works for generic xmpp if you change gmail to xmpp \o/17:00
SpeedEvilWhich is insane - as it means that either no apps can use the internet, or all apps can use the internet.17:01
djszapiSpeedEvil: sorry, not getting you.17:01
DocScrutinizernibbler: basically not17:01
fralsor well.. it brought me online, nfc how to message someone ;D17:01
RST38hDoc: What I wonder about is when the guy gets bored of his proselytizing17:02
SpeedEvildjszapi: the required access for an app that manages the users photos, and a simple game without even a local highscore is very different.17:02
javispedroaha, aegis discussion!17:02
* javispedro grabs popcorn17:02
djszapiSpeedEvil: indeed, so what ?17:02
RST38hDoc: I mean, he is basically repeating the same nonsense. At some point, he should get tired of it, right?17:02
javispedro(and moo, btw)17:02
SpeedEvilFrom a users point of view, aegis isn't helping.17:02
RST38hmoo, javispedro17:02
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faenilgood afternoon everyone :D17:03
DocScrutinizerRST38h: what I wonder more is if the "I don't get it" stanza is carefully trained or just on random17:03
djszapiSpeedEvil: oh yeah, sure aegis is not helping :D :D17:03
SpeedEvildjszapi: If a simple app can do malicious stuff through permitted means, when it shouldn't have access to those means, then it's broken.17:03
RST38hDoc: It is a rhetorical device used to get opponent off course17:03
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: stop it, it's evidently useless17:03
RST38hDoc: Basically, I can respond "I don't get it" to just about any argument17:04
djszapiSpeedEvil: that is where you are wrong, a simple app cannot do that17:04
RST38hDoc: Although I would prefer "You dick", for being more concise17:04
javispedroa simple app can still connect to and start sending spam17:04
DocScrutinizerhmm fair enough17:04
nibbleri also miss something that allows the user to decide what app has which capabilities - for 'users' and convenie apps should come with a sane individual default like on symbian (maybe a bit more fine grained) but putting the user in charge of making his/her decisions on their own would be great17:05
SpeedEvildjszapi: Unless there is manual review of aegis credentials, any app can do anything any other app can do.17:05
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, not really17:05
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: YES, and esp even if the app is called "4 wins"17:05
SpeedEvildjszapi: So if it's possible for an app to send a SMS, which may be desired for some apps, it's possible for any app to send a SMS.17:05
SpeedEvilIncluding apps that should never, ever be able to.17:05
* Arkenoi wants portrait mode in contacts at least17:05
djszapiit certainly requires manual review as of now, but the point is that it can be more automated and we do have some tools for those anyways, like systap17:05
* RST38h suggests filtering apps on the basis of their names, i.e. any app containing "win" in its name never gets network access17:05
* DocScrutinizer is going to push a "4 wins" to OVI that sends a zillion spam msgs to djszapi17:06
RST38hBTW, this *includes* MS Windows17:06
hiemanshu_Stskeeps: it flashed just fine on WIndows17:07
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Stskeepshiemanshu: wtf17:07
vladesthaptic effect doesnt crashes anymore with new fw17:07
djszapiSpeedEvil: so that actually you can actually make the code review automated. It would really indeed be a hell, if we need another 1000 people just to review every code again before getting into ovi store. That would be a rather huge no go. On the other hand, human can make mistakes. It should be more and more automated.17:07
javispedroSpeedEvil, technically, nothing prevents us from making a dpkg wrapper that shows a large "This application will request the following tokens: BLABLABLA. Proceed?"17:07
DocScrutinizerooh, now he's saying "for now it'd need some manual survey which in fact we don't do - but it will be *way* better in the future". While actually the concept is broken17:07
SpeedEvildjszapi: I did not say code review.17:08
djszapihiemanshu: See ? That is what I said.17:08
hiemanshuStskeeps: double click, insert phone, and flashes just fine17:08
SpeedEvildjszapi: I said review of aegis credentials.17:08
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: that'S exactly what android does, no?17:08
djszapiSpeedEvil: meaning that you should review every low-level code even if it is assembly.17:08
javispedroalbeit android does have a finer grained permissions system17:08
djszapiof course, we automated it.17:08
SpeedEvildjszapi: Aegis as a security framework, if the credentials are appropriately validated at the ovi store, has a point.17:08
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: [2011-09-20 15:53:05] <djszapi> SpeedEvil: people saying "I can decide what is malware on my system and what not" are just hilarious seriously :D17:08
djszapiactually android is a very limited permission system17:08
SpeedEvildjszapi: Aegis, if all apps have the same credentials is kinda pointless from a users perspective.17:09
hiemanshuStskeeps: the question now is, why wouldn't it flash on openSuSE, gotta figure that out17:09
djszapithey do not even provide dynamic credential distribution which is a huge issue.17:09
SpeedEvildjszapi: What point is there if the 'connect 4' game I downloaded can do lots of premium rate SMSs in the background?17:09
javispedrobut they do provide dynamic credential synergy!17:09
djszapiSpeedEvil: no, it is not because you are missing the bit, ovi store does not have everything17:09
djszapiSpeedEvil: we do not enable the deny allow service to get everythingg, do not kid17:09
Stskeepshiemanshu: solar flares17:10
hiemanshuoh, the vkbd is not weirder17:10
djszapiwe do not have enough resource and a god system to review assembler codes :D17:10
djszapiwithout any error-prone situation and human mistakes.17:10
* khertan1 's counter measure launched17:10
javispedroplus, you CANNOT make the perfect system unless you do a fork ala android17:10
SpeedEvildjszapi: Reviewing aegis credentials is clealry better than reviewing code, I'm not arguing that. But if credential review is not done, then aegis is not better for the user.17:10
djszapijavispedro: harmattan forked linux ala android17:10
DocScrutinizeraha, now we're at "aegis relies on OVI deny allow, and that is not a god system"17:11
djszapiSpeedEvil: one really big point you miss here.17:11
SpeedEvildjszapi: Simply as the credentials for 'easy SMS sender' and 'connect 4' game do not difer.17:11
djszapiI have been trying to say that to you for a while: you can decide which credential to give if you check the code out.17:11
djszapiit can be manual, it can also be verified automatically to a certain extent17:11
SpeedEvildjszapi: _as_a_normal_user_17:11
RST38hhere he goes again17:11
* DocScrutinizer shakes head in disbelieve17:12
djszapiwrong, credentials are not decided by the user, they are decided by the security framework and OVI QA.17:12
DocScrutinizerOVI QA muhahahahaha17:12
SpeedEvildjszapi: So ovi QA actually looks at the credentials, and decides on a per-app basis if they are sane?17:12
SpeedEvildjszapi: And may refuse listing if they're not?17:13
javispedrowhat policies they use for that?17:13
djszapiSpeedEvil: no, it does not work like that17:13
* khertan1 's radar : nuclear launch detected17:13
javispedrodo they allow a game "TrackerReadAccess" for data mining^W^W, uh, "game customization purposes"17:13
hiemanshujavispedro: the way the Visa embassy works, 'If you look nice, you can get your visa'17:14
SpeedEvildjszapi: Is anyone screening the credentials that apps in ovi store request?17:14
javispedrohiemanshu, currently, I think it is more like "come IN! We're _wide_ open!"17:14
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, what else would the OVI QA be ?17:14
hiemanshujavispedro: yup17:15
khertan1any way ? which user will download apps from ovi ? it s spammed by useless and horrible rss apps ...17:15
djszapieither they reject your spam or they will say, okay this credential is not needed for your app. I would guess that.17:15
SpeedEvildjszapi: But don't know if it actually occurs?17:15
SpeedEvilAlso - look at the apps list.17:15
SpeedEvilThey're actually rejecting spam?17:15
hiemanshuanyways, I have to go home now, so later guys17:15
DocScrutinizerno definitely not17:15
SpeedEvilhiemanshu: Wave17:15
djszapiSpeedEvil: that would be their task, out-of-my-scope sorry, I cannot do everything....17:15
kkitothe funny part about those "spam" apps, is that you can create one of them within minutes in
javispedronot exactly see the problem with spam apps17:17
faenilso they're supposed to be accepted17:17
javispedrothat's the same with the iphone, eh?17:17
DocScrutinizerI'm just building up the rocket launcher, sorry not my responsibility to check if there's a manned control unit, or an automatic control unit, or no control at all and it fires based on a random generator - OH YEAH17:17
faenilwhich is a simple way to say "we have 1mill apps in ovi store"17:17
djszapifaenil: :)17:17
faenildjszapi: heehe17:18
TheBootroofaenil: :D17:18
TheBootroodjszapi: so youre from nokia ?17:18
djszapiTheBootroo: not directly..17:18
TheBootroodjszapi: can you say there will be more then 92000 N9 which is ridiculous ...17:18
khertan1Nuclear Launch Detected17:19
djszapiTheBootroo: who cares seriously ? Everybody knows about the conscious beheading ...17:19
TheBootroodjszapi: but you worked on the N9 dev team ?17:19
javispedrokhertan1: are you reporting live from a StarCraftII war zone or what?17:19
khertan1no ... just commenting while eating pop corn17:19
djszapistarcraft is the best game ever :)17:19
Stskeepsfuck aegis(TM)17:19
vitaminjthe launch was triggered by the "92k" keyword17:20
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TheBootroodjszapi: I care, because when accesible countries will get it , there will be so few devices that we will not be able to buy one17:20
khertan1javispedro: yep starcraft inspiration17:20
djszapiTheBootroo: seriously no clue or care here.17:20
djszapiI myself switched to android anyways17:20
TheBootroodjszapi: kay17:20
faenilwoot? XD17:20
MohammadAGthis chan needs a +m every once in a while17:21
TheBootrooany progress about a usb host for N950 ?17:21
MohammadAGAegis loves the idea17:21
TronicMaybe someone will write an application that allows hiding all apps created with the wizard?17:21
MohammadAGno kernel sources for 34-117:21
javispedroI want my sources =)17:22
TheBootrooTronic: there would be an option in store to hide rss apps, web shortcut apps, etc.... and even  a 'show only free' swtich17:22
javispedroplus, the libnotificationsystem was updated, even changed SONAME17:22
javispedroso my metawatch notifications are broken already =)17:22
khertan1Tronic: or create an alternate store :)17:22
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Tronickhertan1: Yeah, as if anyone would ever use it.17:22
faeniljavispedro: lol17:23
khertan1javispedro: hum lucky you are to have a metawatch ... my wife and me have use budget for an other notification system17:23
faenilTronic: look at rzr's repo :P everyone knows about it17:23
khertan1javispedro: a baby phone17:23
djszapiSpeedEvil: actually, what makes more sense for the QA is to check the maintainer scripts.17:23
djszapiSpeedEvil: easily doable and lot of issues can be caught about those.17:24
DocScrutinizersure. Esp when I decide that my "your stolen phone reports home via SMS" app should have a lil subroutine that sends 5000 SMS / hour to a premium service to get me some earnings17:25
DocScrutinizerclearly will get caught by inspecting the maintainer scripts17:26
SpeedEvildjszapi: If ovi store is not properly doing QA - there is little point in arguing that the user can do it.17:26
SpeedEvilAs that kinda misses the point.17:26
djszapibut that is exactly what I am saying, the OVI could do that.17:26
kkitodjszapi: why did you switch to andoid?17:27
djszapiit should not be the user's job by any mean.17:27
djszapikkito: because I wanna have a longer term platform where I can work with Qt.17:27
djszapikkito: we have an Android Qt meeting at the Qt Developer day, if you are there by any chance..17:27
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kkitodjszapi: has no sense, Qt abstracts the platform17:28
djszapiyes, if there is something maintained to be abstracted...17:28
SpeedEvilAegis is almost completely utterly useless, without the required policy framework around it. If ovi store is not doing proper QA, it's essentially meaningless security, as while the dangerous apps may be preventef from doing some things, they are not prevented from doing the dangerous things. SMS+camera+internet+user data17:28
SpeedEvilWith proper QA, it can do useful stuff for the user.17:28
djszapiSpeedEvil: without the runtime policy framework :D :D :D Seriously, have you ever read the kernel code or the documentation itself ?17:29
SpeedEvilI did not say runtime policy.17:29
SpeedEvilI mean QA policy at ovi store.17:29
djszapiSpeedEvil: no, it is actually not, if it is properly automated.17:30
djszapiunfortunately we did not have enough badget for that17:30
kkitodjszapi: I don't think that qt is gonna to work better in an android platfrom than in harmattan nowdays17:30
khertan1personnally, i read source of app i use, so i didn't trust app comming from ovi store :)17:30
* DocScrutinizer goes automating the universal sourcecode validator17:30
djszapikkito: well, I tried, it worked for me what I did.17:30
SpeedEvildjszapi; you cannot automate this. It's fundamentally impossible.17:31
djszapikkito: and of course, I know the /current/ EOL of Harmattan maintenance, and I have a guess Google will push it way much longer.17:31
djszapiSpeedEvil: what ?17:31
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: it's useless17:31
djszapiyes, we could, we exactly had the plan actually for that.17:31
SpeedEvildjszapi: Unless you can actually automatically read the description of the app, and deduce from that what credentials you need, it's impossible.17:31
khertan1specially if it s know process and we start having obfuscated binary :)17:32
djszapiSpeedEvil: sorry, it is not offense, but I think you just lack the knowledge of the systemtap and other kernel opportunities17:32
npm_the suck:  "pre-fetch, cache, or store any Ovi Maps Content except that You may store limited amounts of Ovi Maps Content for the purpose of testing your Application, if You do so temporarily, securely, and in a manner that does not permit use of the Ovi Maps Content outside of the Ovi Maps Service;"17:32
SpeedEvilOtherwise - there is no difference to the automated process from a SMS sender app, and a game which requests SMS credentials.17:32
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: don't you see djszapi works at the first front of AI ?17:32
djszapiSpeedEvil: those things were designed for that. It is around us17:32
SpeedEvildjszapi: How would an automated system tell between two apps requesting identical credentials, with identical code, but descriptions describing them differently to the user?17:32
kkitodjszapi: and what is the current EOL of harmattan maintenance?17:32
djszapiSpeedEvil: fail to see why you could send sms after a game win if that is what you want...17:32
npm_"Can someone please tell me WHY caching is disabled at Meego/Harmattan ? If you look at the source, it was deliberately taken out! "17:33
djszapikkito: NDA of course17:33
djszapicould not*17:33
Stskeepskids, are you really asking someone to give you confidential information? shame on you17:33
SpeedEvildjszapi: A simple game that does not claim to SMS after a game win, but sends premium rate SMSs, to get the developer money17:33
Stskeepsthat's like abill_uk asking me to release the sources of maemo517:33
SpeedEvildjszap: without the user being aware.17:33
khertan1Stskeeps: hihi ...17:33
macmaN_is ovi suite supposed to be able to recognize n950?17:34
vitaminjStskeeps: don't forget the source code for the drivers for all the 3rd party hardware too. because they're essential.17:34
djszapiSpeedEvil: fail to see why that would be game specific, and could not happen in any other app...17:34
SpeedEvildjszapi: The point is that the game app should never have the SMS credit - if it's not informed the user of this. A proper OVI QA process would check that this is the case.17:35
TheBootroomacmaN_: no  Ovi suite here, only maybe Nokia Link17:35
djszapiSpeedEvil: disagree, a proper API would do that17:35
SpeedEvildjszapi: You mean a popup whenever the app wants to SMS?17:36
SputmacmaN_: weirdly, one of my Ovi Suite installations recognizes and handles the N950 just fine, while the other tells me it's not supported (even though it synced on the very first connect). both suites are the same version...17:36
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javispedroSpeedEvil, djszapi: you now each hold reversed positions! :)17:36
djszapiSpeedEvil: yes, of course17:36
macmaN_Sput: ok my VM doesnt even find it atm17:36
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: you bet the methods used inside Nokia to tell apart the identical code and app, one time with "this game sends a premium SMS, please dont install if you're not content with it" and the other one without that notice, yes the algo telling apart those two and rating the one as rogue while the other is ok for OVI store, damn this algo must be SEKRIT and NDA and confidential for sure17:36
macmaN_Sput: i mean it only sees the mass storage drive17:36
djszapiSpeedEvil: I think it is better to programatically defend than by humans who can make mistakes ...17:36
macmaN_Sput: which mode did you use, sync and connect?17:36
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StskeepsDocScrutinizer: no clue what you're talking about, someone asked about harmattan EOL17:37
SputmacmaN_: I get it recognized, and then the one newly-installed ovi suite tells me it's not supported... whereas the other installation doesn't care and works flawlessly17:37
SputmacmaN_: yep, sync and connect17:37
DocScrutinizerooh, sorry17:37
javispedroso when is harmattan going to be EOL is already _known_ and under NDA? Well, that's all I had to know, last one turn off the lights ;P17:37
TheBootroojavispedro: +117:38
npm_interesting, so so much in the way they have those expensive $1000.00 collect calls from some random island, you could also have an app that does the same... so isn't there a way to dial a call by command-line parameter??17:38
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: anyway for "what I'm talking about" just read backscroll, dj's reasoning about automatic OVI QA17:38
SpeedEvildjszapi: So the fact that there is no API that pops up when there is a SMS request from an app is also 'out of scope' for aegis?17:38
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StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i don't see what djszapi says, sorry, hence not participating in the argument17:39
djszapiSpeedEvil: why should an sms API be aegis related ?17:39
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: :-D fair enough17:39
SpeedEvil(at least in the UK, that sort of abuse has been alleviated by delaying a month the pay-out from any premium rate calls)17:39
SpeedEvildjszapi: The capability to SMS by an app that is not expected by the user to do SMSs.17:39
w00tdjszapi: because premium rate SMS is something that a framework aimed at user protection should be addressing17:40
* Arkenoi wonders if landscape mode will ever get fixed or Nokia thinks it is non-issue17:40
djszapiwell, I can just say the same which I think is good: protect the API properly.17:40
djszapidoes not allow to send out smsS anyways17:40
Arkenoiand damn keyboard too17:40
djszapisince that is a timebomb anytime17:40
djszapiif the API is correct, there is no timebomb, there is no need for manual checks and the like. That is the real defense.17:40
MohammadAGwhy is the LED API locked by Aegis?17:41
MohammadAGobviously the LED indicator isn't blinding17:41
MohammadAGand can't cause less securty17:41
javispedroMohammadAG, you could use it to send PREMIUM Morse LED messages!17:41
vitaminjArkenoi: I imagine it'll be "post-launch" given that the n950 isn't the target device17:41
MohammadAGoh, missed that17:41
djszapiI mean not sending smsS in that form as y ou can for instance do directly from your app.17:41
MohammadAGwhere do I subscribe to mce+?17:41
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MohammadAGSMSs, please17:41
faeniljavispedro: +117:41
vitaminjArkenoi: if at all, obviously17:41
SpeedEvildjszapi: But if there is no OVI QA - any app can have the ability to SMS.17:42
TheBootrooMohammadAG: XD17:42
SpeedEvilWhen with proper QA - it wouldn't, and aegis would enforce this.17:42
djszapiSpeedEvil: except that if the SMS api does not allow you to send sms message without user interaction17:42
MohammadAGanswer my question, please17:42
npmso does an app need special aegis credentials to call other apps (e.g. via QProcess)... so as to do something like ''drive-qml "geo:0,0?searchTerm=Israel%20Israel%20Jerusalem&action=driveTo"'' ( MohammadAG's example... thanx)17:42
javispedrook, funny. AP Mobile news item -- "Nearly 20 people killed in car crash". Ad: "Are you SICK of NOT having a car?"17:43
djszapiSpeedEvil: otherwise, it is just the luck of the human review whether your spam get in and cause you really big harms.17:43
TheBootroojavispedro: lol17:43
MohammadAGyeah, no sane answer for my question17:43
npmbecause if i can't create cached maps from QML map element ( )17:44
npmthen i'd want to use drive or the map application to access the cached map those apps seem to provide17:44
SpeedEvilHuman review is the cornerstone of the process - unless you have a popup for any possible harmful thing. Which would basically mean everything. From sound, to internet usage.17:44
npmalso it's kinda sad that app-writers simply cannot make a mapping app that extends or competes with the platform one.17:45
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, I would seriously not like to trust some strange Ovi QA policy guy ideally whether they decide an application can send high rate SMS, call, what not...17:45
javispedronpm, why not?17:45
npmsimply because they're concerned about copying the cached maps17:45
TheBootrooSpeedEvil: oh you means annoying-modal-popup-like-on-iphone-message-shit17:45
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djszapiSpeedEvil: I would seriously like to have automated and error-proneless defense against that.17:46
javispedronpm, they own the map copyright, they're not going to allow you to copy. but you should check e.g. bing or google API17:46
CepiPerezhey guys, where can I download developer-mode 0.38+0m6? download fails everytime I try to download through the phone settings17:46
npm""Can someone please tell me WHY caching is disabled at Meego/Harmattan ? If you look at the source, it was deliberately taken out! "17:46
npm(from one of the threads in my above msg)17:46
npmbut what about using the QML map plugin in one's app17:47
npmthat's what i'm trying to do, but no matter what, when i'm offline i can't geolocate (latitude and longitude undefined no matter what)17:47
SpeedEvildjszapi: How can you have an automated defence against two apps with different descriptions and the same code? Unless you have popups for _everything_17:47
npmand qml map don't work17:47
rm_workSo, I may have missed previous discussion of this, but what's with all the software updates today? When i first saw the update notifications i thought "OMG new FW finally!" but i guess that's not it17:47
* npm waits a week and lets y'all sort out the bugs on the update, i got an app to write :-)17:48
SpeedEvilDescription A) 'This is an app to support your local football team, it sends a daily premium SMS to them and downloads a wallpaper every day' B) 'This app displays a wallpaper of your local football team'17:48
djszapiSpeedEvil: no need for everything, please do not mis-interpret it :) Aegis defenses against a vast majority17:48
TheBootroorm_work: yah there's a new FW, but not many news things in it17:48
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TheBootroorm_work: only twitter , hotspot and accu weather app17:49
TheBootroorm_work: and some bug fixes17:49
SpeedEvilAegis defends against the subset of attacks that the user does not care about. (in the absence of a robust QA policy)17:49
TheBootroorm_work: and tons of dev tools to reinstall yourself*17:49
rm_workso i have to reflash?17:49
DocScrutinizerok, this is your reporter from aegis battlefield again. Latest news: Aegis is good for *some* security, for example to avoid abuse of dmesg, but obviously can't help for very common standard malware concepts, like dialers, hidden premium SMS, sending out spam(!) via the mail account, etc. The debate now is about "Is aegis worth *anything* at all under these circumstances?"17:49
SpeedEvilIf the app can do SMS, internet, camera, ... then the game is already over.17:49
djszapiSpeedEvil: there are situations which are up to the API design how to behave. Those should be combined as a first try, and /when/ that is done /properly/. It is possible to discuss whether there is a need for manual review. However I am afraid something that cannot be caught by those architectural designs, will be even less chancy for a human.17:49
TheBootroorm_work: yes, no OTA there17:49
rm_workthere's no OTA upgrade procedure?17:49
npmSpeedEvil: wouldn't that "use case" be removed by simply providing proper in-app payment solution for Qt apps?17:49
Venemo_webchathey guys17:49
vitaminjrm_work: and sms and contacts loss
SpeedEvilnpm: Perhaps - it was an example of how an app with the same code could have malicious and safe descriptions.17:50
npmgood example. i hadn't been thinking about premium SMS's at all.17:51
npmso thanks for eye-opening17:51
djszapiSpeedEvil: I still sticky by, the most important task for QA stuff is to filter out the malicious maintainer scripts which is still the largest attack surface for anybody. That can be done fairly easily, I think that can also be automated more or less , though.17:51
npmbut from Nokia's side it should provide impetus to implement something like in-app-payment. after all, you have to keep up with the googses17:52
SpeedEvildjszapi: Why would a user give a shit about maintainer scripts, when apps can turn on the front camera at random and send it over the internet, replace the pictures in their galleries with porn, send SMSs, and ...17:52
djszapiif person checks the same surface attack, or it is done programatically with less-error-prony.... Well, I would certainly vote for the second one. As in high rate calls, I would not still like to trust people deciding about it (that is just rather error-prone)17:52
djszapiSpeedEvil: Can I give you a skeleton package with a "nice" maintainer script and would you install please ? After that, you would see why it is important to "give a shit"...17:53
faenilnone of you is actually giving a solution...17:53
faenilI'm getting more and more confused17:53
SpeedEvilYou look at the app description. You start the app, and maybe run it for a couple of minutes. You then review if it's sane for having SMS.17:53
djszapifaenil: I did more times for the maintainer scripts ?17:54
SpeedEvilIf not, you deny it as a credential, and bounce it back to the dev.17:54
SpeedEvilAnd possibly call the police.17:54
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, that is no go review imho, and makes no sense.17:54
faenildjszapi: but it seems like they're not the only threat17:54
djszapiSpeedEvil: viruses (for instance on Windows) can be like that way, it does not represent itself: "ahh hey I am here, catch me, I can run quickly though" :)17:55
SpeedEvildjszapi: I don't disagree maintainer scripts can do bad stuff. But how is that relevant if the app can do bad stuff with credentials properly given by ovi sore?17:55
faenilspeedevil: +117:55
TheBootroook guys i'm must go17:55
djszapiSpeedEvil: because you cannot do so powerful deny allow service with OVI policies that you can do from maintainer scripts ?17:55
TheBootrooi've a question17:56
TheBootroobefore leaving17:56
djszapiactually, right now, the maintainer scripts are the laaaargest surface attack (as I revealed it couple of times in the past)17:56
TheBootroodid you see Tommi Laukkannen (tlaukkanen) or Andrea Enbacka  (aenbacka) there  ?17:56
djszapiunfortunate, since it was against a silly manager decision imho.17:56
faenildjszapi: you're defending against one attack, ok, what about the rest?17:57
djszapifaenil: what rest ?17:57
faenilthings speedevil is talking about17:57
npmSpeedEvil: " app can do SMS, internet, camera, ... then the game is already over." --> but doesn't ones app need credentials for those to get access, and aren't the presence of those credentials something that's easy for QA to check ?17:57
djszapiand yes, I am speaking about the hugest and simpliest surface attack, yes.17:57
djszapifaenil: speedevil does not like the programatical defense, I do like.17:57
SpeedEvilnpm: yes.17:58
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djszapinpm: no it is not any easier than anything else17:58
SpeedEvilnpm: If the QA process works, and is implemented properly, aegis has a point. If it doesn't, then aegis only protects against stuff the user doesn't care about.17:58
faenillet me understand, djszapi, you'll let premium sms app in, and then let user decide whether to send sms or not17:58
djszapinpm: since you can anytime use the same features in your app....17:59
npmso where's the problem? you could just scan all incoming app credentials and flag the problematic ones for review17:59
djszapimeaning that either it needs code level check or automated protecting (That I am with)17:59
SpeedEvilnpm: djszapi seems to have been arguing that the QA process is not a key part of the security.17:59
djszapinpm: yes, that is what I have been saying, but that needs either manual check or automated way (That I am with)17:59
SpeedEvilAt least to me.17:59
djszapiSpeedEvil: wrong17:59
djszapiactually I even said the opposite with maintainer scripts in this special casse.18:00
DocScrutinizernpm: so what's wrong when my app is called "face recog password free auth" and claims to know your face and ask with your home radius server to unlock the phone. Then it for sure will rightfully request cam and internet access, and then I can send out your stunned face to youporn when you notice I watched your activities al day and night18:00
djszapibut yeah, I would certainly automate that as well, humans make mistake...18:00
npmah, the old "amiwanking" app18:00
npmwow, that would be a good thing to put in a free pornviewer :-)18:01
berndhswell, why have 2 cameras in the phone and then not spy on people ? just doesnt make any sense18:01
djszapiSpeedEvil: do you seriously think if there are say X people there for ms viruses, they can catch all the viruses by running applications for a limited time ?18:02
SpeedEvildjszapi: Of course not.18:02
SpeedEvildjszapi: But it's trivial to find out if the app informs the user it's going to make SMSs18:03
SpeedEvildjszapi: If it doesn't, it doesn't get the SMS credential.18:03
* DocScrutinizer yawns18:03
SpeedEvilAnd perhaps more investigation/prosecution is triggered.18:03
* DocScrutinizer prefers to continue pondering how T F to "abuse dmesg"18:04
npmhmm what if the app has a encrypted timebomb in it... that runs it's decrupted payload via qprocess?18:04
SpeedEvilnpm: Then it doesn't have the SMS credential.18:04
SpeedEvilAnd it can't SMS18:05
djszapiSpeedEvil: well, that sort of issue can be caught by good API as well, so here is my workflow, feel free to fix me:18:05
npmbut it can do other things18:05
npmlike take a picture of your anthony and post it to twitter18:05
SpeedEvildjszapi: Unless the API asks the user when it does _anything_ - turn on camera - send packet to internet - ... - it adds no security18:05
djszapi1) Design a good platform (as in security) 2) Design good APIs 3) Write Automated tools 4) (Last step!) Check out if there is a need for any manual QA check, and whether those can still be automated.18:05
npmi'd be more worried about these things being used for political purposes.18:07
djszapiSpeedEvil: as for me, manual QA thingy is something t hat /should/ be avoided, but let us discuss at the /end/ whether still needs be there.18:07
npmSpeedEvil: but what if it was an app that was otherwise well-behaved and had credentials for SMS/photo/twitter18:08
npmbut had a little extra payload in there....18:09
berndhssure, a sleeper spy app18:10
djszapiSpeedEvil: I am a bit afk, thanks for the discussion. :)18:10
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: toldya it's useless, no?18:10
fluxthere's an actual business based on such apps. it's based on you getting a hold on the victim's phone, though, installing a 'worm' game18:11
fluxafter that you can spy the phone18:11
faenilone thing18:16
faenilhas anyone ever been at qtdays?18:16
DocScrutinizerflux: excellent example :-D I'd *expect* such a spy app would pass OVI QA when properly advertised as "Spy-app for law enforcement authorities only. $6999". Change the description to "harmattan optimizer" (we've seen similar useless null-funct "optimzer" apps for fremantle) and give away for free, and I'm waiting for any automated QA ring a bell then18:17
fluxdocscrutinizer, the actual spy app component was free, but the license for the remote control app wasn't18:18
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javispedroin Fremantle, at least on such noptimizer (pun intentional) app was banned from the ovi store18:19
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faenilanyone ever been at qt dev days? :D18:19
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: and why got it banned? because of some AI QA ringing the alarm bells, or because users/devels with a brain complained?18:20
javispedroafaik, it was QA18:21
javispedroreason was "it modified system internals" or similar.18:21
DocScrutinizerautomated AI based QA? DUH!18:21
DocScrutinizerflux: :-D18:22
DocScrutinizerflux: that's the way to make money :-D18:22
npmyeah, just ask google18:22
javispedroDocScrutinizer, no, not AI, old fashioned one18:24
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fluxFlexiSpy says "Installation is simple and does not require any cables or computers.", so I guess you get the bug from the net somehow18:24
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javispedroseemingly N900 Ovi QA might be harder than N9s..18:24
DocScrutinizerflux: sure18:24
fluxit would be nice to have reverse searches on the system, like, "which applications are able to receive sms messages" etc18:25
djszapiflux: we have such a tool called aegis-runner18:25
flux(of course, even the forward search should first be there ;-))18:25
djszapinot sure it will be published...18:25
javispedroflux, all of them.18:25
djszapishould be trivial to put into ovi18:26
DocScrutinizerflux: but according to our security expert this isn't sth the user should bother about18:26
fluxdjszapi, I imagine it doesn't have a pretty UI?18:26
djszapiflux: it has.18:26
djszapiflux: also, what I miss from OVI store is that what I linked few weeks ago, let me show it:18:27
djszapi -> permissions tab18:28
javispedrobut, as you can see, the current aegis policy is NOWHERE near as fine grained as that18:28
DocScrutinizerand android is way worse than aegis ;-P18:29
macmaN_Sput: what ovi suite version you have? im so far unable to make it recognize mine :/18:30
faenilstill, there have been many viruses in Android market'18:30
djszapijavispedro: I would disagree, but the point was not really not. What I was referring to that, it is nice users can see the required credentials, that is18:30
javispedroand I am also quite a fan of seing the required credentials too.18:30
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javispedrobut how can you "disagree"?18:30
javispedroit's an object fact18:30
javispedroandroid has tokens for audio recording, aegis hasn't.18:31
djszapiobject fact for the opposite to me.18:31
djszapithey are rather limited.18:31
javispedroandroid has _several_ tokens related to Cellular, Maemo has a the ultra generic "Cellular" token18:31
javispedroandroid separates contact, messages, etc. data into several tokens18:31
djszapithey are actually given on a static basics, nothing dynamics at all18:31
javispedroMaemo separates it in "Read/WriteTrackerAccess"18:32
javispedrodjszapi, that's true.18:32
javispedrodoesn't change the fact the CURRENT aegis policy is much more coarse grained than android's18:32
khertan1need to go on ... bye18:32
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DocScrutinizerkhertan: o/18:32
djszapijavispedro: it has nothing to do with aegis18:32
javispedropolicy, policy, I know.18:32
djszapiit was the decision made by the applications, what they provide.18:32
djszapithey could use aegis as they wanted.18:33
djszapiit is really up to them.18:33
javispedrobut that would be _hard_ unless you do ala android and reinvent your own API18:33
djszapiso I would not feel my responsibility for that :)18:33
djszapi/aegis/ did provide a much finer grained platform18:33
djszapithey did not profit from aegis that much they /could/ do.18:33
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javispedroif you do it the traditional Maemo way, reusing pulse, etc. you need to _fork_ and or patch every component that could even potentially mean a new token18:33
javispedroe.g. you'd have to patch PA to check for AudioPlayback, AudioRecord.18:34
djszapijavispedro: aegis is much more fine grained than android18:34
djszapithe application policies are not.18:34
javispedroAegis CAN be much more fine grained than Android.18:34
djszapiand aegis is what I feel responsible for.18:34
djszapiand that is something we did more flexibly.18:34
javispedrobut it's half implemented in Harmattan18:35
javispedroA) you do not get a proper security system with fine grained permissions18:35
javispedroand B) you pester developers18:35
DocScrutinizer"but our sticky seal tape is really sticky, and 100% tight against all sorts of gas and bacteria - look ho nice it sealed al the windows and doors!" Turns around but doesn't even notice the missing rear outer wall of the house18:35
javispedrolose-lose situation18:35
djszapijavispedro: ok, but what can I do apart from that we did a great flexible system on our own ?18:35
djszapishould I also write the policies instead of them ?18:35
javispedroyou cannot fix A. You lack resources.18:36
djszapiexactly, I cannot do everything :)18:36
javispedrotherefore, stop doing B.18:36
djszapiI feel a bit shamed about what you said.18:36
djszapibut out-of-the-scope for me.18:36
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javispedroIf Meego were to adopt Aegis, I'm sure they could make a kickass app permissions system that would be lightyears better than Android's (and probably with a way to override it, too). But that's just not happening in Harmattan, for one reason or the other.18:39
DocScrutinizerthen please stp claiming harmattan/N9 is/will be the most safe&secure phone ever, we are fed up hearing that BS18:39
djszapiwell, obviously not much done since February18:40
DocScrutinizers/stp claiming/stop claiming that thanks to aegis/18:40
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: then please stop claiming that thanks to aegis harmattan/N9 is/will be the most safe&secure phone ever, we are fed up hearing that BS18:40
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faeniland that ends the war, lol18:47
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MohammadAGwell, the fact javispedro's right is mroe what ended it18:48
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djszapifaenil: this issue was overdiscussed couple of times about the application policies, not much to say here.18:50
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kkitoanyways, i think that aegis is a good "feature"
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trxi installed the new firmware on N950, now when i try to run my app, it fails with some rubbish "X Error: BadAccess (Attempt to access private resource denied) 10"19:11
SpeedEvilI hope not, of course.19:12
RST38hSpeedEvil: in the light of recent events, this stuff is not funny =(19:13
SpeedEvilI know.19:13
SpeedEvilIt was a while before I was able to turn off my mums last login. :/19:14
DocScrutinizerRST38h: it's as non-funny as19:14
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-20 18:08:17] [Notify] lcuk ist offline (
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-20 18:08:26] [Notify] lcuk ist online (
iekkunot really funny19:16
iekkumiss lcuk19:16
SpeedEvilI wasn't meaning the alt-text bit - which I forgot.19:18
SpeedEvilIt is depressing.19:18
DocScrutinizertrx: looks like19:19
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trxDocScrutinizer any suggestions? i just scp'ed the executable to n950 "/bin/test"19:20
javispedro no19:20
javispedrothat's not aegis19:20
DocScrutinizerlisten to master J19:20
trxjavispedro what is it?19:21
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javispedroyou are doing something horrible to X11, like19:21
javispedroaccessing sme other other window's pixmap without the proper cookie or19:21
javispedrousing Qt.19:21
javispedroignore that message, look for something else19:22
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DocScrutinizerrun a X process under alien user account?19:22
javispedroit's more complex than that19:22
DocScrutinizeror in wrong cwd?19:22
javispedrobut eitherway, that's outside the point, i've seen Qt do that by itself some times19:22
javispedronot Qt, but meegographicssystem19:23
javispedroit's not fatal19:23
trxit worked before the update, thats why i suspected its the new firmware19:23
trxthanks, i'll debug my code19:23
trxsee where it crashes..19:23
DocScrutinizeran srace will be taletelling19:24
javispedroit _crashes_?19:24
DocScrutinizeryou looked to dmes... *cough* syslog?19:24
RST38his strace allowed under aegis?19:24
DocScrutinizerI think it is19:25
kkitojavispedro: is Qt doing it intentionally?19:25
DocScrutinizerdepends on the target process19:25
trxjavispedro yes19:25
DocScrutinizerRST38h: strace date ->no problems19:25
javispedrokkito, no idea19:26
DocScrutinizerstrace -p `pidof $random-user-process` ->guess will blow chunks19:26
DocScrutinizerwhen done from root19:26
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DocScrutinizero/ javispedro19:28
kkitoRST38h: theres radare2 too19:30
kkitoit works fine under "user" user19:30
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MohammadAGanyone done DDP returns?19:33
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DocScrutinizeryes, somebody did. can't recall the name19:48
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trxwow, it crashed because it doesn't have permission to create a textual file in ~/MyDocs/20:03
DocScrutinizerwhich is sane if ~/MyDocs soesn't exist for $not-USER20:04
trxit first checks if the file exists, if not it creates a dir in MyDocs called txpad, and it does so20:05
DocScrutinizerand even if this was ~user/MyDocs then still root isn't allowed to write there20:05
trxthen it should create a file in that dir20:06
trxbut it fails20:06
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DocScrutinizerbtw I doubt the app is using shell shortcuts like ~ for pathnames20:07
DocScrutinizerif it did then that's a bug that explains quite e bit in itself20:08
trxno, it uses the full path20:08
DocScrutinizermhm, so what's `id` and what's the FQN?20:08
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trxhow do i check that?20:09
DocScrutinizertype >> id<CR> <<20:10
DocScrutinizerin the shell that you started your app in20:10
trxuid - 29999(user), gid - 29999(users) groups - 9990003, 9990111, 999036220:11
trxit can create a dir, but not the file :/20:12
trxi guess i have a bug somewhere20:13
DocScrutinizerls -l ~/MyDocs20:13
DocScrutinizerls -ld ~/MyDocs20:13
DocScrutinizerls -ld ~/MyDocs/txpad/20:14
DocScrutinizerecho foobar > ~/MyDocs/txpad/deleteme20:15
trxdrwxrwxrwx 11 user root 65536 Set 200 18:02 /home/user/MyDocs20:15
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trxecho foobar > ~/MyDocs/txpad/deleteme works20:17
trxthen its my code right?20:17
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npmre " i installed the new firmware on N950, now when i try to run my app, it fails with some rubbish "X Error: BadAccess (Attempt to access private resource denied)" --> perhaps using the shared memory extension and need special access??20:17
DocScrutinizerseems your code is doing sth weird20:17
trxyeah :/20:18
trxnpm, i solved that, it tried to use data from a file which was not loaded as it didnt exist20:19
trxi should really rewrite that mess :/20:20
trxDocScrutinizer btw, thanks :)20:21
DocScrutinizeryw :-)20:21
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tommanote to self: next time use more backup methods for contacts21:02
piggztomma: the gmail integration is great now...i get contacts, calendar and email over mfe21:03
tommaatleast it used more advanced vcard format than n90021:06
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MohammadAG5 software updates popped up21:18
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MohammadAGone of which is terminal21:18
MohammadAGnew window21:19
ieatlintyeah, more buttons in that bar21:19
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MohammadAGswiping left/right changes toolbars21:21
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ieatlintbut how will i arbitrarily change colour schemes now :(21:26
ajalkaneieatlint: from menu21:27
ieatlintit's just not the same without the cool swiping action :(21:28
ieatlinti don't recall if the old version supported multiple terminal windows though21:30
ajalkanehaha yeah...21:30
ajalkaneit didnt21:30
ajalkanenow the terminal r21:31
ajalkaneis quite good21:31
ajalkanejust copy paste missing21:31
ieatlinthopefully this indicates some semblance of routine updates21:35
ieatlintbtw, does the wifi hotspot app work for others?21:35
DocScrutinizersomebody claimed c&p works now?21:36
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-20 11:42:05] <TheBootroo> alterego: just select text, a toolbar appears, click copy, then tap another text field, a toolbar appears with paste button21:37
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-20 11:42:46] <alterego> TheBootroo: can't seem to, maybe it's the screen session.21:37
ieatlinti can do that in text fields, but not the terminal21:38
DocScrutinizeranybody tested shift+ctrl+v ?21:39
DocScrutinizerof course after copying some text somewhere where it works21:39
ieatlinti can't get ctrl+v to work for text in my clipboard into the terminal21:40
MohammadAGcause that's ^V21:41
SpeedEvilThe terminal certainly said swipe horizontally to change colour when I started it after flash21:42
SpeedEvilAnd it works for me21:42
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, there's an update21:42
MohammadAGor 521:42
MohammadAGgo into package manager and refresh21:42
MohammadAGapt-get might work too21:42
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ieatlintyeah, also fixes the icons21:43
SpeedEvil'device is up to date/'21:43
ajalkaneI think the guy claiming c&p works in terminal was confused.21:43
ieatlintor at least terminal/sdk app icons were red blocks for me21:43
SpeedEvilafter saying that, up pops a list of stuff that isn't up to date21:44
ieatlintcan anyone else confirm whether they can open the wifi hotspot app?21:44
ieatlintwhen i try, i get an error saying "Wireless network not allowed"21:44
ieatlintand then it closes21:44
ieatlint(and wifi does work on the device, and i'm connected via umts when i try)21:45
trxmine opens..21:45
w00ttethering restriction somehow?21:45
MohammadAGopens and works here21:45
ieatlintok, great... :P21:45
rantomWorks for me21:45
ieatlintnah, tethering is allowed with my carrier, half the phones they sell are android with the feature built in21:45
rantomCan anyone confirm, that the vibration is broken?21:46
ieatlintok, thanks21:46
MohammadAGvibration is weaker21:46
ieatlinti get vibration with OSK presses21:46
MohammadAGyes that's always been there21:46
ieatlintthere's a setting for the vibration strength21:46
ieatlinttry turning it up?21:46
MohammadAGit was disabled by default on 22-6 but it level 3 was much better on 22-621:46
MohammadAGI did21:47
MohammadAGit still sucks21:47
rantommacmaN_: I btw tried to use bt-headset with Drive and Music. In Drive it was bad, not as bad as in old FW but still bad, didn't get enough time with Music21:47
rantomI turned it up from 1 to 3 in new FW, didn't help21:47
SpeedEvilieatlint: I opened it, it started, I've not turned it on21:47
rantomIt's very, very weak21:47
MohammadAGlevel 3 used to vibrate the whole device21:47
MohammadAGnow you can barely feel it21:48
ieatlintSpeedEvil: no need to, that's as far as i needed to confirm the problem was mine21:48
MohammadAGlevel 1 was better than level 3 on the new fw21:48
SpeedEvilLiking the swipe-down21:48
rantomYes, swipe-down is great21:48
ieatlinti'm starting to wonder if flash will be there on the release build21:48
rantomI'd like it even more if it'd take me to the apps-list21:48
rantomafter closing, that is21:49
MohammadAGit always switches to the task switcher21:49
MohammadAGno matter where you were21:49
ieatlintyay, reboot fixed hotspot app :)21:49
MohammadAGas I said, it seems to be a hack21:49
rantomok, didn't read back21:49
ajalkanei like it brings up task switcher after close21:50
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rantomI happened to get "can't install" for some dev. apps21:50
MohammadAGrantom, two days ago21:50
MohammadAGrantom, refresh, works fine now21:50
rantomI think it was when I installed wget21:50
rantomMohammadAG: Wasn't really here two days ago ;)21:51
rantomBut yep21:51
RST38h~seen euroelessar21:52
RST38h!seen euroelessar21:52
_MeeGoBot_euroelessar was last seen 2 weeks, 1 hour, 7 minutes and 7 seconds ago, saying 'and QApplication requires x11 server on it's own' in #harmattan.21:52
infoboteuroelessar <~Elessar@> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 14d 1h 7m 15s ago, saying: 'and QApplication requires x11 server on it's own'.21:52
ieatlintis there a good way to get the screen to stay on for app dev?21:52
rantomMohammadAG: Ah, updates. Thanks21:52
ieatlintwish there was a feature to say "don't auto turn off screen when charging"21:53
rantomCouldn't download sdk-connectivity-tool though21:53
rantomNor meego terminal..21:53
rantomnvm, retries fixed21:54
ieatlinthopefully nokia will also get the browser and email client updated with "find on page" and ability to copy text21:55
rantomWow.. The Terminal is SO much better now21:55
rantomThe arrows really save me a lot of time21:56
ajalkaneyeah. and doing own toolbars is very easy21:56
DocScrutinizerbtw, has anybody tested a Nokia multibutton (aka multimedia) headset with N950?21:56
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: ??21:56
rantomajalkane: Oh? How?21:57
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ajalkanerantom: see terminal menu About21:58
ajalkanei mean Help21:58
rantomIs it just me or is the drople for Terminal-settings inaccessible in portrait?21:58
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ajalkanei can click it21:59
rantomI can't see it then21:59
DocScrutinizerSCNR (regarding [missing] support from Nokia regarding hostmode):
ieatlintjust pretend it's there and press21:59
rantomAh, now I see it22:00
rantomHad to change theme22:00
rantomI like the arrow-control for themes though22:00
ieatlintyeah, especially useful in portrait/on n922:00
rantomMaybe "rotate" to switch themes?22:01
rantomMeaning: two finger, anti-clock wise to switch to previous, clock wise to switch to next22:02
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rantomGrrgh.. fingers*22:02
Elessarhi all22:02
ElessarI've published FBReader's port to Meego to official site:
ElessarI've mostly done it port to Meego, heh22:05
Elessarif anybody want, please test it :)22:08
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berndhsoh this is fun, OCF finds the Device or resource busy22:29
khertan_Elessar: it look like you do your app in qml, and you have made a font selection dialog ... youhou ... start copy paste machine :) thx22:39
Elessarkhertan_: what do you mean by copy paste machine?)22:40
khertan_Elessar: i ll look at your code to see how you did it in qml22:40
khertan_except if your licence isn't open of course22:40
Elessaroh, he22:40
Elessarit's gpl22:41
khertan_didn't want to reinvent the wheel.22:41
Elessarsources are there: currently at qt-mobile-zltree branch22:41
khertan_the result will be here :)22:42
djszapi_khertan_: ohh I think I will try out your app.22:42
Elessarwhat are features of your editor?22:42
djszapi_khertan_: vi is a bit hard to be used by VKB.22:43
djszapi_does your application simplify something in comparison with that ?22:43
khertan_djszapi_: yes and no22:43
khertan_vkb is still hard to use :)22:44
Elessardjszapi_: it's also not the best variant for hardware-keyboard :) because of leek for some symbols22:44
khertan_ <<< for a description22:44
djszapi_the problem is that, I cannot scroll up in vi, just down22:44
khertan_it s the fremantle variant in screenshot22:44
khertan_didn't made any yet for meego22:44
djszapi_but I can use arrows by the relevant buttons.22:44
Elessarkhertan_: sadly gui at Qt4 is mostly imcompatible with QtQuick one22:45
khertan_an old version is available in rzr "pseudo" community repo22:45
khertan_Elessar: yep this is why i rewrite things22:46
djszapi_khertan_: syntax highlight for qml ?22:46
khertan_but sadly qml isn't ready to do text managment22:46
khertan_djszapi_: qml highlight is far to be perfect22:46
khertan_djszapi_: just basic component highlighted22:46
khertan_no completion22:46
djszapi_you could take those codes from kate/kdevelop (backend functionality, like highlighting, parser and others)22:47
djszapi_if the kdelibs is not really hardcore dependency.22:47
Elessarkhertan_: you can try to use QGraphicsTextItem22:47
Elessarjust write QtDeclarative component on top of it22:48
Elessarit's more powerfull, that QML's one22:48
Elessargn8 for all22:49
djszapi_sleep well!22:50
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Andy1210hi, I tried to flash the N950 yesterday and the bootloader is gone or corrupted. Now I can't flash it again. When I connect the USB cable in the phone, nothing happens. I tried remove the battery and put it back, but it didn't help. What can I do now?23:10
crevetoralterego: your barcode scanning plugin works pretty well :)23:11
alteregocrevetor: on and off23:12
alteregoIt's really inefficient23:12
alteregoI've almost finished a much better version ;)23:12
crevetorWhat do you mean inefficient ?23:12
crevetoroh ok23:12
crevetorWell I'm probably going to use it for an app23:12
alteregoEvery frame is converted to RGB and thrown on to a rectangle23:12
alteregoWell go ahead, but the new version will break the API, though it's so simple it doesn't really matter ;)23:13
crevetorif it's just a matter of replacing BarcodeReader and BarcodeViewport it's fine ;)23:13
berndhsi guess i'm not update the firmware today, not cooperating23:13
snowpongIs there a concept of an apps local directory in MeeGo like for Symbian? Ie. somewhere the app can store it's own data that cannot be accessed by others, and which will be removed when uninstalling the app?23:14
VenemoAndy1210, maybe SpeedEvil or javispedro or DocScrutinizer know the answer23:16
SpeedEvilI'm not awake at the moment. Ask again in a few hours.23:16
SpeedEvilTry plugging it intot he wallcharger, and leaving it for 12h23:17
DocScrutinizertry coldflashing23:17
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DocScrutinizerif NOLO (bootloader) is corrupted, then the device won't show any visible reaction on bootup. Nevertheless you should see the ROM bootloader enummerating USB, when you wat syslog of your PC after plugging in the N95023:19
Venemoey djszapi, how're you today? :)23:20
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DocScrutinizerof course a completely empty battery could easily defeat any proper bootup even of ROM-bl23:21
DocScrutinizerso if you have any option to alien charge the battery, then by all means do that prior to continuing on N950 flashing23:22
DocScrutinizerdo you have a voltmeter to check battery's voltage?23:23
Andy1210i saw enummerating usb, but showed up the same again and again23:23
DocScrutinizeryeah, it reboots when xloader fails to load NOLO23:23
DocScrutinizerplease pastebin the relevant lines of your PC syslog23:24
DocScrutinizer(plus a bit of context before and after)23:24
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Andy1210im on windows7 now23:24
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Andy1210but brb23:27
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Andy1210im here23:29
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw kernel: [122512.544180] usb 1-4: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 2623:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw kernel: [122512.677394] usb 1-4: New USB device found, idVendor=0421, idProduct=010623:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw kernel: [122512.677407] usb 1-4: New USB device strings: Mfr=34, Product=38, SerialNumber=023:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw kernel: [122512.677417] usb 1-4: Product: Nokia USB ROM23:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw kernel: [122512.677424] usb 1-4: Manufacturer: Nokia23:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw mtp-probe: checking bus 1, device 26: "/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb1/1-4"23:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:53 linux-grqw mtp-probe: bus: 1, device: 26 was not an MTP device23:33
Andy1210Sep 20 22:30:56 linux-grqw kernel: [122515.677862] usb 1-4: USB disconnect, address 2623:33
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MohammadAGdoes MNotification::setImage() work?23:34
DocScrutinizerAndy1210: Product: Nokia USB ROM <-this is ROM bootloader asking for a flasher that wants to do coldflash (aka reflash a broken NOLO)23:37
javispedrostrings was on beta1, no longer in beta2..23:37
DocScrutinizerAndy1210: as soon as ROM-bl doesn't see any request of flasher to do a coldflash, it will continue and load NOLO to RAM and execute it. If NOLO is borked, this will obviously fail23:38
MohammadAGjavispedro, apt-get install binutils23:38
Andy1210and how can i coldflash?23:38
MohammadAGit's with developer tools afaik23:38
javispedrotracing tools actually23:39
javispedroprobably a dep of oprofile, just came to mind23:39
DocScrutinizererr sorry, ROM-bl loads xloader which in turn loads NOLO - not that it matters much here23:39
javispedrota MohammadAG23:39
Andy1210so, how can i fix thix?23:41
MohammadAGso apparently the filename was .jpg but I was saving it as a png23:42
MohammadAGand MNotification guesses the image type through the extension23:42
MohammadAGhad to change that to png23:42
javispedroMohammadAG: not surprised23:43
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: ping23:45
DocScrutinizerAndy1210: flasher --help23:45
DocScrutinizeralso see man flasher23:46
MohammadAGMDialog titles were blue, now they're plain white23:46
MohammadAGholy shit GPS is fast on 34-223:46
MohammadAGand DocScrutinizer, pong23:46
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: would you mind plugging in a multibutton headset to N950 and see if it knows to do anything reasonable with the buttons?23:47
macmaN_DocScrutinizer: oh good thinking i should try that, 22-6 had trouble with next track button. all other buttons worked.23:47
macmaN_MohammadAG: yes gps was kickin on our little drive last night23:47
DocScrutinizermy N900 GPS had a TTFF of <5s this afternoon23:49
SpeedEvilAGPS is good when it works23:49
DocScrutinizerhaven't used it for several days23:49
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: yeah, I chaneg supl to google23:49
SpeedEvilIt's a shame it gets so confused if the date is set to the default on batteryless boot23:50
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I don't have any on me but...23:50
MohammadAGyes, the kernel responds to them23:50
MohammadAGand the music player responds to them23:50
DocScrutinizercool shit, I'd like to munch thru the kernel module sources23:50
javispedrostupid weather widget23:50
javispedrothe accuweather app directly updates the widget via a dbus method acll when it pleases23:51
javispedroso I cannot capture it and redirect to the metawatch =)23:51
DocScrutinizerwhy can't you catch the dbus msg?23:52
DocScrutinizeroooh HARM23:52
Andy1210DocScrutinizer thank you!!!!!!!23:52
DocScrutinizerAndy1210: it worked?23:53
Andy1210yes :)23:53
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DocScrutinizersee, you basically can not brick a OMAP system23:53
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DocScrutinizerthe plain SoC chip with some wires to PSU and to USB can load code to ram and execute it. No special tools needed23:54
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, they're also shown over DBus (normal ButtonPressed messages)23:56
DocScrutinizerI want to get them to fre though23:56
MohammadAGjavispedro, chances are whether data is cached somewhere23:56
DocScrutinizerI'm not too involved and excetied into/about HARM23:56
javispedroMohammadAG: right as usual, .config/AccuWeather/23:58
javispedroplus, it's QSettings23:58
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DocScrutinizerharn been born with a number of defects that will either call infant death or at best allow it to live on as a me-too android/iPhone copy, though of inferior potential23:59
DocScrutinizerharm even23:59
* DocScrutinizer starts to get illiterate23:59

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