IRC log of #harmattan for Friday, 2011-08-26

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lcuklardman, you mean the timestamp is updated twice?00:23
lcukto latest date/00:23
lcukor something else00:23
lardmanI didn't actually look at what was updated00:23
lardmanbut I'm guessing the timestamp changes00:23
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lardmanI changed to grabbing a stringlist of filenames and comparing those as I'm only interested in new files not modified ones00:27
lardmannot quite sure where to post about Harmattan stuff on the forum, I've gone for Forum00:28
lardmanand on that note, bed time00:29
lcuklardman, with the Q filesystemwatcher can you specify flags for certain criteria00:29
lcukthe lower level inotify has a whole suite of options for such things00:30
lcuknn simon00:30
lardmanlcuk: yeah but it doens't tell you which files are modified, just that something in a given dir has changed00:30
lcukthat is nice00:30
lcukif your folder has x thousand items etc00:30
lardmanyeah I was trying to keep it Qt mainly, anyway it works fine now00:30
lardmanyeah with lots of files I may need to revisit that as you say00:31
lardmanI'll add it to the todo list for after I've got mBarcode-lite's qml ui up and running00:31
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lardmananyway will catch you tomorrow perhaps, going for an induction I understand, so may be away for a few days00:31
lcukheh i just made a todo app this evening00:31
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* leinir looks for something to stab :P01:13
leinirdpkg: status database area is locked by another process01:13
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djszapi__lcuk: have you ever used mono ?01:37
djszapi__or just windows c# ?01:37
lcukdjszapi__, I have looked at mono01:37
lcukit is interesting01:37
lcukbut my Linux involvement started with pure C on maemo01:37
lcukfor the last 10 years I was a visual basic/.net developer01:38
lcukand had not written C since college01:38
djszapi__5 years ago, it was promising01:38
lcukdjszapi__, the Windows phone is interesting use of C#01:39
lcukif it takes off then the latest mono could be important again01:40
djszapi__yes, I wrote a small application for that01:40
djszapi__but using their ndk only.01:40
lcukI hear there is some Windows training available in October, it would be interesting to see how well liq* apps run there :P01:41
lcukthe last time I wrote for a windows PDA os was os2005 I think01:41
lcukbut I have to find a path to being funded for activities01:42
djszapi__I must say, windows phone pretty much rocked last October.01:42
lcukit still does, I played recently01:42
djszapi__lcuk: someone should try to port mono harmattan and let us play with that :)01:43
djszapi__* to harmattan :p01:43
lcukdjszapi__, there are developers at Collabora whom are adept at mono01:43
lcukand its maintainance01:43
lcukI am sure that if such a thing were required it could be arranged01:44
djszapi__it could actually also be ported to android01:44
djszapi__ohh no, it is not a requirement ;) It is just out of curiosity.01:44
lcukjust letting you know :)01:45
djszapi__lcuk: is Collabora also committed to webkit2 ?01:46
javispedromonotouch is already on android iirc01:47
javispedroin fact,
javispedroweirdos everywhere seems ;P01:48
djszapi__monodroid is a long story yes01:49
djszapi__however not free01:49
djszapi__the free version is really a newbie project yet.01:49
djszapi__needs a lot of love.01:49
djszapi__I think even more than neccesitas01:50
djszapi__I am pretty sure there will be (or there already is) a qt jambi like dotnet binding.01:51
lcukdjszapi__, I do not know the status of webkit01:51
djszapi__lcuk: seems a niche now on the market, mostly the qt - webkit2 integration01:51
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djszapi__lcuk: btw, kdelibs is ready for usage.01:58
lcukdjszapi__, what is it useful for day to day?01:58
djszapi__what do you mean ?01:58
lcukwell the libs are there01:58
lcukwhat works with them that you or I would need01:59
lcukyou spent enough time porting them01:59
djszapi__lcuk: imho, kalgebra so far, but the kde development can start01:59
lcukdjszapi__, oh, I thought there were already many kde apps waiting01:59
djszapi__kanagram would also be nice, teachers love it.01:59
lcukdoes kalgebra work well on the n950?02:00
djszapi__as for me, yes.02:00
lcukwhat do you use it to do?02:00
lcukdo you have screenshots or a video of it in action on your device?02:00
lcukas many others seem to have for their apps02:00
djszapi__no, but I ported scrot02:00
lcukscrot is?02:01
djszapi__so should be easy to take a screenshot from ssh02:01
djszapi__without having another phone or using OVI02:01
lcuka video would be nicer02:01
lcukthe n9 swipe ui shows apps in a good light02:01
djszapi__is there some video recorder from cli ?02:01
djszapi__I could port one...02:02
lcukyou could just use n900 or another phone02:02
lcukthe macro focus on n900 is outstanding for such uses02:02
djszapi__that is not that nice like using just ssh, is it ?02:02
lcukdigital videocasts do not show finger usage02:02
lcukand how the app responds to use02:03
djszapi__that is true02:03
lcukelements just fly mythically02:03
lcukit is quite disconcerting02:03
lcukso grab another phone and make a quick vid :P02:03
lcukthen people will know what the kdelibs can be used for02:03
djszapi__lcuk: well, I have not really had time since it is a fairly new story, like yesterday ?02:04
lcukadd it to your todo list :)02:04
djszapi__lcuk: I would be happy to see more KDE applications ported, but they could not obviously do it without kdelibs02:04
lcukI am pleased you have them working02:04
djszapi__so I hope it can start now..02:04
lcukdjszapi__, so it is on your C-OBS repository?02:05
djszapi__lcuk: yes02:05
djszapi__lcuk: kanagram would be nice for teachers02:05
djszapi__they love it iirc02:05
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djszapi__and the Ui is almost ready for touch02:05
djszapi__lcuk: rekonq could also rock02:06
djszapi__since we are lacking an open source webkit based browser02:07
djszapi__however I am afraid not much would stay apart from the rendering engine after the port02:07
djszapi__browsers are cannot really be "ported" since you almost drop everything. :)02:07
lcukporting apps is not fun then.02:08
lcukMy apps are identical and happy running on handsets or tablets02:08
lcukeven using them on the 20" touchscreen in the lounge is the same02:08
djszapi__lcuk: also, please use the shared repository for KDE stuff.02:09
lcukI will not, but since you are in charge of the kdelibs you will speak with other kde developers and can inform them02:09
lcukI can tell others who ask :P02:09
djszapi__lcuk: porting khangman could also be easy02:10
djszapi__lcuk: what is wrong about using the shared repository ?02:10
djszapi__lcuk: oh, also I have a KDE project, called mula02:10
djszapi__that is very useful to me when it is ready, wip :)02:11
djszapi__dictionary application02:11
lcukit is good to use the shared repo, but I rarely will need to push kde stuff myself02:11
djszapi__so that you do not need to use different web services for dictionary purposes.02:11
djszapi__everything is put into a handy dictionary app02:11
lcuki use fiferboys lexicon for such things02:11
lcukit works now on meego and harmattan02:12
djszapi__so can you use googletranslator for instance with that ?02:12
djszapi__or chromium, or stardict ?02:12
lcuki wouldn't need to02:12
lcukit has english disctionary?02:12
lcukdictionary *02:12
djszapi__lcuk: anything, not just english. Also, the architecture is designed as pluggable02:12
djszapi__so that actually you can add any plugin for further dictionary services, standards.02:13
djszapi__maybe, kteatime heh :p02:13
djszapi__that could be also ported.02:15
djszapi__lcuk: calligra, marble are being ported02:43
djszapi__lcuk: kontact Ui was not really designed for touch, so they will break the swipe UX (= I expect very few users because of that)02:43
djszapi__lcuk: plasma is a bit harder story.02:43
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djszapi_lcuk: well, I do not have N900 anymore for recording a video02:43
djszapi_lcuk: N900 has been a history xD02:43
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* leinir hopes this issue's been fixed in the release image...
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djszapi_lcuk which windows version have you used ?03:48
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GAN900Anybody know if someone is working on an eCoach type thing for Harmattan?05:35
hiemanshuIIRC there was one05:35
hiemanshuGAN900: check forum.meego.com05:36
hiemanshuI recall reading about one05:36
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rantomI've got a small question about the N950: will the birthday-event appear in Events list once closer to that date?07:38
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rantomHmm. I checked my contacts and they seemed to be missing the birthday-date from them..07:41
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tommaworks for me08:01
rantomYeah, I re-sent my contacts with Bluetooth and merged them (since I was missing e.g. birthday-data)08:06
tommaaahh yeah they wont be moved with contact sync08:07
tommaor something08:08
tommadont remember08:08
rantom Nope, doesn't work for me08:08
rantomI created a dummy-contact with birthday to today and it doesn't show up in Events08:09
tommadoes it show "Birthdays" in manager calendars?08:10
rantomFor some reason it also says "3 events" even though I have ~10 contacts with birthdays08:13
rantomAnd I only see one of them, that being the dummy, in Calendar08:13
rantomErr, ok...08:20
rantomFor some reason I have to add the birthdays to the Calendar by tapping them in the Contacts08:20
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rantomtomma: What version are you running? I'm in:08:27
rantomVersion 1.2011.22-6_PR_RM68008:27
hiemanshuhe either has the same or he isn't allowed to tell you the version :P08:29
rantomI've yet to be used to the fact that this is devkit08:30
rantomI've used to using CE but that's quite different:)08:31
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tommasame version08:41
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rantomthere can be only three profiles?11:04
wazdheya all11:08
rantomwazd: hi11:10
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: morning11:20
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alteregoI bet the first WP phone doesn't support NFC :)11:24
rantomI bet teh first WP-phone doesn't support MeeGo11:28
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DocScrutinizermorning djszapi11:37
dm8tbrmoaning y'all11:38
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: aegisfs supports hard links in a way, but it is gone after the reboot.11:40
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: thanks for the info :-)11:41
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I am filing a bug about /var/malf, it is a very serious deny allow issue (even if just root can do it).11:41
djszapiThere should be some signature content, that could solve this issue11:42
DocScrutinizerI agree and might vote for this ticket11:42
djszapiinternal bug :p But yeah, you can make mayhem with it right now.11:44
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: while you're at it, please include the suggestion to dearm this init/check_malf.conf (or whatever it's called) so a developer could still boot and examine a system that had a MALF triggered11:45
djszapiyou can do that.11:45
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: "please try to reflash!"11:46
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: yeah, I know that, but what does MALF stand for? :P11:46
DocScrutinizer"or visit next Nokia carecenter"11:46
djszapiDocScrutinizer: one scenario is doing this in some install context. That way, it is even more serious for a user than just for a developer.11:48
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: (I can do that) well, I consider it immanent part of the problem complex that a DoS run against a user by triggering MALF can not be examined as access to the device is blocked11:49
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DocScrutinizerthe user probably was even able usually to revert the "offending action", if only he could access the rootfs by any means11:53
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i think you may be able to repair a MALF with -T option of flasher, but i'm unsure11:53
Stskeepsit untars something on the fs11:53
DocScrutinizerthen otoh reverting a file edit isn't simple on a inode based security system11:53
DocScrutinizerit usually may be impossible to recreate the original file on original inode11:54
DocScrutinizerut wait, inode numbers are only runtime11:55
DocScrutinizerthey are regenerated from a FQN based representation in manifests, on every boot. That's what javispedro told me11:55
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DocScrutinizerso restoring the original file and then rebooting should work for repairing a tampered system11:56
wazdslight offtopic: is there any MySQL gurus in here? :) Cause I need some help with importing a database :)11:59
DocScrutinizerwazd: I've been told MySQL has differing binary database file format even on same MySQL version, between slightly different hw platforms. Allegedly the only way is to for example export to csv on source platform and import from csv on target. Or use any better format than csv, I guess there are plenty12:03
DocScrutinizerhad this problem when it came to mirroring a mediawiki12:04
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: btw, this malf thing is the same on N90012:11
DocScrutinizerduh! never seen it12:11
* DocScrutinizer checks12:11
djszapiI mean same as in you have a message, and you cannot boot.12:12
DocScrutinizerwhat will do this on fremantle? dsme?12:13
DocScrutinizerfind / -name '*malf*' doesn't yield hits12:14
djszapiif the system services does break, you are getting the same situation12:15
djszapiit is not any different12:15
djszapiyou cannot boot your device up.12:15
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DocScrutinizersorry what is "system services"? How would it break (example)? And what in boot would stop me from booting fremantle then?12:17
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# grep -ri malf /etc 2>/dev/null12:18
DocScrutinizerÜbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /etc/alternatives/vi.12:18
DocScrutinizerÜbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /etc/alternatives/awk.12:18
DocScrutinizerÜbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /etc/alternatives/nawk.12:18
DocScrutinizer/etc/wireshark/init.lua:PI_MALFORMED = 13107212:18
djszapianything which is serious corruption in the system services there.. I recall the same situation12:20
djszapiHence it is probably wont fix category imho.12:20
DocScrutinizerI could imagine a scenario like "user messing up dbus config -> bootloop"12:20
hiemanshuwazd: still need help?12:20
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: sorry, I disagree. Whatever evil things you did to your fremantle so it might be considered "unbootable and needs reflash", a developer always has the chance to boot to uSD based rescue system, mount fremantle NAND rootfs, and examine the issue, to diagnose and possibly cure the root cause. How would you go debugging random system breakage on harmattan?12:24
hiemanshuhmmm, whats good way to generate squircle shapped buttons?12:25
hiemanshua good way*12:25
hiemanshuStskeeps: the default harmattan style12:25
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: this sounds like windows: "if something does not work, please reinstall system"12:25
hiemanshuthats called a squircle12:25
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I had the same issue with Fremantle...12:25
DocScrutinizersame issue?12:26
djszapiYes, I had to reflash12:26
djszapiAlso, it is not really aegis area, so I do not spend too much time with their issues, we have enough :)12:26
DocScrutinizerwhat stopped you from booting meego on uSD and mountinf the fremantle rootfs to /mnt/forensics?12:26
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: I had not 1) uSD that time by hand 2) I had no working meego that I would consider for any kind of use.12:27
artemmhiemanshu: My designer told this tool is good -
DocScrutinizerthat's no conceptual argument against fremantle being debug'able while harmattan isn't12:28
artemmand he made great icon with it12:28
djszapiDocScrutinizer: it is not technical, but usability12:28
djszapiDocScrutinizer: and that is what the user care about anyway12:28
DocScrutinizerwe are developers, our metrics for usability is different12:28
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hiemanshuartemm: ah, it generates svgs too, I thought it would generate only 80x80, I need 160x160 (for my app)12:29
DocScrutinizerwe need usability in debugging, so users will get a device _they_ percive as usable12:29
DocScrutinizerso if my development HARM system randomly crashes with "please reflash!" I'm strongly interested in _debugging_ and _investigating_ and _fixing_ the problem, not in reflashing to be the only available option12:31
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: could you help me on argumentation?12:31
djszapito be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. I tried out your scenario yesterday, and I could boot my system fine...12:32
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: no, i totally agree with your statements12:32
artemmFunnt, just yesterday I was reading a rant by somebody known about how lame it is for developers nowadays to tell just an error code or cryptic message so that "the only person who can understand the message probably doesn't need it :)"12:32
djszapion the other hand, no way I will look for an uSD card and buy one, if I can simply use one command to reflash and continue in few minutes instead of hours and days about looking and buying ....12:32
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: IF system still boots, then all just fine. Developer can investigate, look into syslog, whatnot. And eventually find and cure root cause. But it seems usually system will deliberately refuse to boot on MALF12:33
djszapithe common case is that anyway, it is harder to debug than start it from a clean state anyway.12:33
artemmthere are no super-small scree, super-small memory sizes and super-limited CPUs anymore. You can provide a real explanation. That is if you care about what client is interested in12:33
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: yes, i admit it's scary we agree for once12:34
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: sorry this is a void rationale. If there's a problem, then especially for a developer there is no use in "starting from scratch"12:34
djszapiit is not rationale if the platform is designed for the common case ?12:35
djszapiand not for corner case ? That is a very odd claim.12:35
alteregoEspecially if reflashing just means you rebrick when you do the same thing because you don't know the issue :)12:35
djszapibut at any rate, I do not continue it since I am not a system service guy, and I have enough thing right now to do with aegis ;-)12:36
DocScrutinizerwe are developers, and N950 is meant to be a developer device. That's what's written in all capitals on the back12:36
alteregoThat's a cop out, corner cases are what cause butt hurt.12:36
djszapiDocScrutinizer: again, N wants a user device. The developer device just happened to be since these gadgets were already manufactured anyway. We can argue about the N decisions a lot, but completely pointless.12:38
DocScrutinizerso in *DEVELOPER MODE* there must not be a forced reflash, to cure for example a maybe minuscule problem in /etc/init/. Such a reflash eradicates all forensic hints so the developer could learn what to fix to avoid same problem in the future12:38
djszapiplease send back the device, if you do not accept the decisions and platform. They will give it to people who will die for one such a gadget this way.12:39
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DocScrutinizerdjszapi: sorry I completely dislike this statement of yours. it's offending and silly12:39
djszapiyou are the only one offending the decisions and design for no real reason..12:40
djszapiThere are people who would die for such a device with this platform and decision..12:40
DocScrutinizerI'm saying it's nonsense to - metaphorically - replace coredump action by rm -rf /12:41
djszapiI think you are saying this thing to a wrong person (I think even with a wrong arguement)12:42
DocScrutinizeryou may do this for the consumer version of a device, but not for development12:42
leinirso annoying... i got hit by this one yesterday too :P
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I did not make this decision and I am not responsible for that work by any sense.12:42
djszapibut one thing I can do, accept it.12:42
DocScrutinizerI never said you were12:42
w00t_you're not just accepting it, you're defending it12:43
djszapiyes, I think it is good this way.12:43
djszapithat is why I said: (I think even with a wrong arguement)12:43
djszapiDocScrutinizer: but surely I am not the one you need to persuade :)12:43
DocScrutinizerwe agree on that12:44
djszapiand to be honest, as I said from the beginning, I could reboot the device12:44
djszapiand then I could remove that file...12:44
DocScrutinizerand I need to investigate more about your claim that device still boots after MALF12:44
DocScrutinizerif it does, then my whole rant is mot12:45
djszapiDocScrutinizer: no guarantee for every crash of course12:45
djszapiDocScrutinizer: what I agree about is the deny allow source. I heavily agree about that one :)12:45
DocScrutinizersure, if I managed to nuke kernel, I'm screwed either way12:45
djszapiand I am discussing it now with them..12:45
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DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: ?12:51
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: his icon generator, didn't have to spend a day learning inkscape making my images squircle shaped12:52
DocScrutinizerwell yeah12:53
DocScrutinizerI guess there must be a similar thing on device running natively (word?) on HARM, as for example web shortcuts created in browser are generated12:55
DocScrutinizerthere's probably a reason why all those gfx tools are installed by default ;-)12:56
hiemanshuyeah might be possible12:56
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DocScrutinizernot to belittle javispedro's useful tools12:57
djszapiDocScrutinizer: actually, I have tested it, it works nicely.12:58
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: reboot?12:58
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I cannot enter into a non-booting system without breaking the underlying base system12:58
DocScrutinizerok, sounds really OK then12:58
djszapimaking things with malf well, it just let you reboot.12:58
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djszapiit actually means that both issues you mentioned are invalid :)12:59
djszapi1) Being able to reboot - done 2) Easy to break the device - not really12:59
DocScrutinizerthey were not on javispedro's and my system. Yes I know... newer images might have fixed this12:59
djszapiIf I remove the reflashlist, that is for sure a forever malf.13:00
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: the fact that I can get svgs makes it much better, because I needed icons of size 160x16013:00
djszapibut this is where my previous opinion comes into the picture, that is a fairly correct design13:00
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: I'm not requesting user could recover from really fatal mishaps like destroying kernel or modules for example. It's obvious this would be a sure ticket for a reflash. There are others. As long as system basically stays bootable so you *could* fix issues that not immanently render the system 100% inoperable, I'm fine with that13:03
djszapiyes, that is the design13:03
djszapiat least I could not get into a forever malf by not breaking the base system, still trying.13:04
djszapiso I think it is really well managed.13:04
djszapiI could already get into forever malf by breaking the base system13:04
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: fine. And many thanks for giving this a close inspection and evaluation13:04
DocScrutinizer(could already get into forever malf by breaking the base system) you always can, on arbitrary systems13:05
DocScrutinizerno matter if it's solaris, winNT, or HARM13:05
djszapiexactly :)13:06
djszapiI still know what big security hole in aegis though :)13:06
djszapiI hope we can get that fixed with the /very/ limited resources :(13:07
djszapi* a big security hole13:07
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DocScrutinizermy idea of aegis anyway has been it more *protects* user from doing that, rather than helping on breaking things. If the "please reflash!" isn't actually forcing user into a worse situation than he was in without this mechanism, I'm all fine with it13:08
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DocScrutinizerto give a real life example: if the whole x11 system gets messed up so system can not crank up on-device GUI, I'd think it's still more helpful for user when he still could log in via ssh, to backup data, rather than locking the device and ask user to unconditionally and immediately reflash NOW13:11
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: you say MALF would "recover" and allow user to do this. So I'm all fine with it13:12
DocScrutinizerjust one thing: I'd really like to get the new firmware where this and other annoyances are fixed :-D13:15
DocScrutinizerkhertan: morning13:19
* khertan too ... would really see the new firmware13:20
khertans/really like to/really13:20
radiofreePattern not found: really like to13:20
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: I was the first one posting on a new image, I know how important it is ;p13:22
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: :-D13:22
djszapibut unfortunately, I must agree about their decision after all. One "bad reputation" is better than getting it weekly.13:23
djszapiand letting the developers/users feel that, oh this week is still not okay, and getting them frustrated.13:23
hiemanshuhmm, is it possible to disable the button behind an icon?13:27
hiemanshuI have a button 160x160, with a squircle of 160x160 on top of, I can see the button bellow overflowing a little13:27
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ajalkanehiemanshu: maybe opaque: 0 works?13:42
hiemanshuajalkane: let me try that13:43
hiemanshuajalkane: wouldn't that make the icon transparent too?13:43
ajalkanei guess not if you can put it as sibling13:44
hiemanshumaybe I'll just use rectangle and mouseare13:46
hiemanshuthat seems to be working13:46
* hiemanshu takes a screenshot13:46
hiemanshu \o/13:50
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ajalkaneseems like a simpler and cleaner solution anyway :)13:59
MohammadAGwhat kind of operator is !dea14:02
hiemanshuMohammadAG: its Idea, they are trying to be leet :P14:03
hiemanshuMohammadAG: I pay about 2 usd for 8G of data on it, so I use it14:04
hiemanshuMohammadAG: anyways, able to access RDA devices?14:06
hiemanshuMohammadAG: see what firmwares the N950s have :D14:06
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MohammadAGhiemanshu, sec, lemme try14:12
hiemanshuMohammadAG: alright14:12
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MohammadAGthe N950s are version 2, not the ones we have14:12
thpversion "2"?14:13
hiemanshuthp: 64G, 512M RAM and such14:13
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thpisn't that technically the previous revision?14:14
MohammadAGthere have been 3 revisions afaik14:14
thpi.e. they did the lower-spec devices for developers, whereas the "better" devices would have been the for-sale things?14:14
MohammadAGthey probably found 512MBs of ram low14:14
MohammadAGand 64GBs unnecessary for devel14:15
* thp types "free" into an xterm to check the ram of the n95014:16
thp1gb. nice! i know too little about the specs of this device14:16
thphas there been any progress booting/flashing any other kernel than the nokia-signed one?14:17
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MohammadAGthp, you need MOSLO14:18
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I found two interesting security things :)14:19
MohammadAGand afaik there's a bug in the firmware/sw version we have14:19
* DocScrutinizer is listening14:20
djszapiDocScrutinizer: 1) /etc/init/ is integrity protected, but you can still move/rename it. However it does not mean anything risky since upstart works against inodes so it will be just fine 2) I can remove files as root, like on normal unix systems from the system, not tightly related to any user (ie.: install context) Just a brick I could do with it to remove the refhashlist. Anyways, /var/lib/aegis integrity protection will solve this issue as well fa14:21
thpMohammadAG: and that's available somewhere?14:22
djszapiI was reading that debian developers were discussing some declarative format for their maintainer scripts, that is something which would way much better, agreed... On the other hand, from Nokia policies, they prefer the OVI store for distributing packages, so a refhashlist removal could not go through the QA process there heretofore either.14:23
djszapiDocScrutinizer: oh yes, the validator will defend against rename, moving as well in the future, so defended platform from more pov anyways :)14:23
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: alas your post 2 up got truncated14:24
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: >>integrity protection will solve this issue as well fa14:24
MohammadAGthp, yes, some people have it, but afaik it isn't public14:24
djszapi... fairly easily :)14:24
MohammadAGthp ask Stskeeps14:24
djszapithp: yes, fairly easy, one liner in fact.14:25
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DocScrutinizerdjszapi: many thanks for sharing this. :-) Seems I got a bone to chew on during the rest of this day14:26
djszapiheh :)14:27
SpeedEvil'the ovi store for distributing packages'...14:28
SpeedEvilI wonder if there is a likelyhood of that working as well for the n9 as it did for the n900.14:28
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MohammadAGhiemanshu, got an N9 on RDA, it has one touch point stuck14:35
MohammadAGitmkeeps scrolling on its own14:35
MohammadAGnow it's on the task manager14:36
MohammadAGis there a way to launch terminal with hardware keys?14:40
hiemanshuIIRC no14:42
MohammadAGso this one's useless14:42
MohammadAGi can't even tap terminal in the search app14:43
hiemanshuI was going to suggest that :P14:43
MohammadAGlist keeps overshooting14:43
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wazdRST38h: heya15:12
hiemanshuhey RST38h wazd15:12
RST38hwazd: day!15:13
RST38hwazd: how is the aether today?15:13
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: mmm, another 2 security things btw15:15
ajalkaneand is weather .deb here today :)15:16
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: shift-ctrl-x, like on N90015:29
DocScrutinizermaybe I dreamt that?15:29
RST38hyou did15:30
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DocScrutinizerindeed, as I did
DocScrutinizerI dare to claim this list is comprehensive15:31
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MohammadAGhiemanshu, got another N9, this one's connection sucks15:57
hiemanshuMohammadAG: lol15:57
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djszapififerboy o/ :)15:58
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fiferboyHi djszapi16:00
ajalkaneah, those kb shortcuts are apparently good for checking which apps are mtf. Qml apps don't support them fps, borders etc. shortcuts16:00
ajalkanedisappointing that apparently all bundled apps are mtf16:01
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lcukajalkane, do as they say not as they do :P use qml16:02
fiferboyFacebook is QML, isn't it?16:02
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djszapififerboy: does the old import work on the N950 (image: week 22) ?16:03
djszapi* new import16:03
ajalkanelcuk: yeah... bastards. But I looked at mtf and theres no way I'm gonna do UI with it :)16:04
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ajalkanefiferboy: dunno, I don't have fb account so can't test. I'm an old geezer like that.16:05
DocScrutinizerI'm rather happy about the MTF apps, at least they have nice widgets. Compare calendar timepicker to boostedWG's timepicker. Same for datepicker16:05
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer: that's exactly what frustrates me. Mtf has all the good widgets.16:06
djszapimtf is pretty cool16:06
djszapiI liked writing application using that.16:06
fiferboyWhat is the key combo, I'll check16:06
DocScrutinizernah, what frustrates me is QML missing any sane widgets :-)16:06
djszapiqml is insane :)16:06
djszapiI mean the missing basic elements are rather hurty16:07
ajalkanectrl+shift+b shows borders16:07
djszapififerboy: if that import works on the N950 (week 22), I think that is the way of proceeding.16:07
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ajalkaneI took cursory look at mtf examples, and it looked painful. I don't want pain to learn deprecated api16:08
DocScrutinizernote that it seems the switching of all those MTF diagnostic display is "global" and not per app, afaik16:08
ajalkaneit's per app16:08
DocScrutinizeroh really?16:09
DocScrutinizerat least it's common for the three basic screens16:09
DocScrutinizeryeah, newly started 'app' doesn't inherit it16:10
fiferboyFacebook doesn't show borders - also I think the package name is facebook-qml :)16:10
djszapiDocScrutinizer: your app has its own life, yes.16:10
ajalkaneokay cool, at least one app is qml.16:11
djszapififerboy: yeah, the facebook is just a metapackage.16:11
djszapito be precise: facebookqml :)16:12
ajalkaneMaybe they wrote fb in qml and said, fuck this, mtf rules16:12
DocScrutinizersh-ctl-L is actually kinda funny16:12
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faenil_guys what do you suggest to put buttons on a GLWidget?16:14
fiferboydjszapi: Is there noticably more QML apps pre-installed in later firmware?16:14
MohammadAGhiemanshu, so i found a reboot button, that didn't end well16:14
faenil_like images with press events16:14
djszapififerboy: sorry, NDA :)16:15
djszapifaenil_: we used qml16:15
faenil_like have the gl as a QDeclarativeItem16:16
faenil_and put images on it16:16
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djszapisomething like that, let me look a bit of code for you.16:16
faenil_did you notice fps drop in doing so?16:17
djszapiwell, we use in-game ui16:17
djszapiand nope, not that I noticed.16:17
faenil_yes I need ingame ui16:18
fiferboydjszapi: Fair enough :)16:18
djszapifaenil_: still the game...16:18
djszapidude, you should really try Gluon :)16:18
djszapiwe managed these things there and you reinvent the wheel :)16:18
djszapithis is not the first time I realize ;)16:18
djszapifaenil_: but you can also use the game development platform from the Nokia site.16:19
faenil_I know man, but I'm here to reinvent the wheel16:19
faenil_to know how the wheel works16:19
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faenil_and then help the others build the rest of the chart16:19
faenil_to learn*16:19
djszapiI have never understood this approach, but ok :)16:20
djszapifaenil_: is it a 3d or 2d game ?16:21
fiferboydjszapi: So I got the mysql packages in my repo, so I can go back to working on QML :)16:21
djszapifaenil_: then gluon is not for your, certainly.16:23
djszapififerboy: hehe great :)16:23
faenil_djszapi: ok! problem solved :D16:23
faenil_I'm seeing you use qpainter with the framebuffer object16:24
djszapiyes, that is the way of doing it.16:24
djszapifaenil_: by the way, read it as in we do not have currently 3d16:25
djszapibut it is not architectural limitation, simple implementation-wise16:25
faenil_djszapi: yes, I got that :P16:25
faenil_but the way to write on opengl surface is the same :D16:25
djszapifaenil_: you can also check out what the Nokia game engine does16:25
djszapimaybe they do it differently..16:25
faenil_ok ;(16:25
djszapifaenil_: dealing with the memory is rather different :)16:26
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faenil_javispedro: did you make a UI for the emu?16:32
hiemanshuMohammadAG: the device didn't boot up later?16:32
hiemanshujavispedro: lovely stuff with the icon generator :D16:32
faenil_javispedro: ok ;)16:33
hiemanshujavispedro: (all generated using your generator) :D16:33
elpurifaenil_: i didn't read all of your discussion but i would just use a QGLWidget as a viewport for a QDeclarativeView, define a declarative item that draws the 3d view with gl* calls wrapped between beginNativePainting and endNativePainting calls16:34
elpuriand then do the rest of the ui with QML16:34
javispedrohiemanshu: :) but try to remove the backgrounds in each of the icons for extra nicety :)16:34
djszapithat is what I showed him ;)16:34
faenil_elpuri: yes that's what I meant when I was talking to djszapi16:35
hiemanshujavispedro: yeah, that was a quick hack to get a basic UI working for now, still needs a lot of work yes16:35
faenil_elpuri: I'm just afraid of the fps drop :D that's why I was looking for advices :D16:36
djszapifaenil_: why would it ?16:36
elpuriwhy would the fps drop?16:36
MohammadAGhiemanshu, indeed16:36
elpuriyou have to paint everything somehow anyway16:36
MohammadAGhiemanshu, i have all devices, they're not working16:37
elpuriif you hide the QML items during gameplay their paint() won't get called and the overhead is minimal16:37
faenil_yes but for example, painting the buttons as textures or painting them as QImage converted to QPixmap require different time..16:37
djszapiyou wanna write a Ui with opengl ? :)16:37
faenil_elpuri: I need to draw the buttons of the game, I need them always visible (almost)16:37
hiemanshuMohammadAG: and what about the N950?16:38
javispedro(ui with opengl) not astonishingly hard16:38
elpurifaenil_: if you paint with QPainter to a QGLWidget it uses the opengl graphics engine and paints as textures16:38
djszapifaenil_: yes, like a game menu in that scene...16:38
faenil_djszapi: only 3-4 control buttons...yes that would be better16:38
hiemanshuMohammadAG: even though its old, the arch is still the same and such, we try some hacking with it16:38
elpurifaenil_: it does the exact same thing16:38
elpuriwrapped in a little bit different package but still16:38
hiemanshus/we/we can/16:38
infobothiemanshu meant: MohammadAG: even though its old, the arch is still the same and such, we can try some hacking with it16:38
faenil_elpuri: ok :) I read it first had to convert the qimage to qpixmap, so it was better with textures...but if it already does it itself, better :)16:39
djszapififerboy: twitter, no ? (qml app)16:39
MohammadAGhiemanshu, same software version16:40
hiemanshuMohammadAG: damn16:40
faenil_anyway, why didn't they put a better gpu on this phone (and N9) XD16:40
djszapififerboy: not sure if accuweather is qml16:40
faenil_sgx530 is a bit old and slow...16:40
MohammadAGhiemanshu, can't you access rda?16:40
hiemanshuMohammadAG: at work, no java and such on this machine, so not right now16:41
MohammadAGit's fine for what it does16:41
elpurifaenil_: where did you read this?16:42
faenil_qt forum16:42
faenil_don't remember the exact topic16:42
fiferboydjszapi: twitter might be, we don't have it on our image16:42
faenil_elpuri: it could have been this one
faenil_but don't remember atm16:43
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faenil_elpuri: anyway I'll first try with qml buttons + opengl viewport, and see how it performs16:48
djszapithat will not be the culsprit, mainly in a 3d game anyway.16:50
elpuriit will be roughly the same16:50
elpurinobody is converting anything every frame16:51
faenil_ok good :)16:51
djszapielpuri: are you good at opengl ?16:52
* fiferboy wonders why QML styles (ButtonStyle, etc) don't allow for colour customization - it would be so easy for them16:54
elpurinot in the professional (or even serious recreational) game programmer level, but i can get things done with ogl and glsl16:54
* fiferboy goes about colourizing all the styles in his application16:54
* fiferboy sighs16:54
djszapielpuri: I need opengl help on Windows about a game.16:55
hardakerfiferboy: I've wondered why many things don't default to allowing a colored background.  How is that not fundamental these days?16:55
djszapielpuri: works everywhere, Mac, Linux, Harmattan, Fremantle, Apple, what not, but Windows.16:55
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elpuridjszapi: i've been doing mostly 3D UI stuff lately17:01
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fiferboyhardaker: It is easy enough to extend the styles to add colours, but it is a pain to have to do it for every widget in the application!17:04
djszapielpuri: it is 2D, but we have been using Qt Open GL17:04
djszapielpuri: goes into off-topic, can I query you ?17:04
djszapiI was using this glslDebugger for debugging, and the trace pointed out some mistakes, but not really sure why that happened only on Windows.17:05
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hardakerfiferboy: easy yes; but each developer shouldn't have to do it themselves.17:07
fiferboyhardaker: I agree.  A global property you could set once and have each style follow would be ideal17:10
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MohammadAGhiemanshu, no dice :/17:14
MohammadAGi just need ssh access to an N9 gdi17:14
fiferboyStyle.qml could have __colorString which I set to "color14" and then everything in my application would follow that colour17:15
djszapiDocScrutinizer: back to the security things: 1) /sys/kernel/security/restok/tokens is a good source for missing credentials apart from the general posix capabilities 2) Do not get used to dmesg check, that will be not available, just use syslog. Reason: dmesg requires sysadmin capability which can do a lot of nasty things.17:17
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* fiferboy wonders at the chances for such a patch being accepted17:17
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fiferboyI guess there is only one way to find out17:19
* fiferboy clones qt-components git repo...17:19
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faenil_alterego: heard the same feedback from everyone who tried it :)17:44
javispedroso Symbian is _improving_? who'd have thought!17:44
faenil_I just hope Nokia won't play hide and run as it always does with updates17:44
faenil_Anna is about what, 9months late?17:44
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: we (the developer community) pushed for years to get sources and docs for all the closed blobs and protocols/APIs of maemo. We are not going to repeat same dance on an even lower level now to push the limits of what we are **ALLOWED TO USE** on meego HARM17:46
alteregofaenil_: Anna with a leaked Belle _before_ it! :D17:46
jktso, I'm trying to build my desktop app for Harmattan, and I get a pile of warnings about qstring.h:187: note: the mangling of 'va_list' has changed in GCC 4.417:47
jktshall I ignore that?17:47
faenil_alterego: lol17:47
w00t_jkt: you can, yes17:47
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jktw00t_: any way to silence them (and just them)? also, any plans to have them fixed?17:49
djszapijkt: I think I turned that off17:49
w00t_already fixed17:49
jktI'm suing that prebuilt qt creator "Qt SDK", shall I rebuilt from source? If so, from what qtc branch?17:49
w00t_new SDK won't help you, i don't know if/when harmattan gets a fixed Qt (it may have it already for all I know)17:50
jktis that the mangling as used by C++ to generate symbol names, or some other mangling?17:51
alteregoOne One thing I will say about Belle, it has a better charging indicator than Harmattan ../meego ..17:51
jktwow, my QWidget-based application actually *works*17:51
jktnow that's pretty impressive for a two-minute job of "porting"17:51
jktokay, too early -- using it without mouse and the tab key is rather hard17:51
djszapihiemanshu: have you fixed irc-chatter after all ?17:53
berndhsis there a way to set the user-agent string in QML webview ?17:55
jktso it looks like that the mouse actually works, even though it's rather hard to press menu buttons with it17:55
faenil_guys I'm trying to import my glwidget as QDeclarativeItem and I found this
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faenil_but they only talk about the paint function...what about initializeGL() , resizeGL()?17:56
faenil_should I call them manually?17:56
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: sorry I'm not in a moderate mood right now, so started bitching again. I know this doesn't help (modulo it helps me stay sane). Maybe later when temperature here is <30°C we might continue our discussion17:57
javispedrotime for the air conditioner!18:00
* javispedro was also getting upset over this shitty piece of code18:00
javispedroand now I realize why18:00
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: hi pal!18:01
mikhasjavispedro, was it your own?18:02
mikhasusually, that's the code that annoys me most18:02
DocScrutinizerair conditioner HAH! I closed all (glass) windows to keep the confortable 29°C inside my appartment, and the nasty 36° outside18:02
javispedroI just heard an explosion18:02
javispedrohope it's not the AC compressor =)18:02
javispedrona, j/k, it's fine.18:04
javispedromust have been some "isolated thunderstorm". or world war 3 starting..18:05
* DocScrutinizer has apocalyptic visions of a time in near future when temperatures rise to 60° 90° 150°C18:05
javispedromikhas: yes, mine18:06
hiemanshuuhm, dj left18:06
DocScrutinizeractually you'd be rather screwed with too high ambient temperature, as there's just so much you could do about it18:06
kimjuDocScrutinizer, move to finland, we only have a half dozen days of over 30C a year (also, about the same number of days under -30C :)18:06
hiemanshukimju: Its with a cold weather as long you can work from home and have a heater with loads of vodka :D18:07
* javispedro starts to love his climate18:08
mikhasyou heat with vodka?18:08
javispedros/his/local ;)18:08
faenil_any answer to my question? :D18:08
hiemanshus/heater/heater, and a shelf/18:08
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infobothiemanshu meant: kimju: Its with a cold weather as long you can work from home and have a heater, and a shelf with loads of vodka :D18:08
hiemanshuits fine*18:09
djszapififerboy: what is that "turn" in the QML snake game ? What does that represent ?18:09
hiemanshuhey djszapi18:09
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hiemanshudjszapi: well no, I didn't make the patch yet, I have been too busy with work and then rewriting my own app in QML18:09
djszapino hurry18:10
DocScrutinizerfaenil_: somebody messed with this yesterday, here in this chan18:10
faenil_ok I'll look for the answer in the log18:10
faenil_thanks :)18:10
* DocScrutinizer seems to have entered main processor throttling mode, due to overtemp18:10
DocScrutinizerfaenil_: search yesterday's log for that.... err18:11
faenil_yes ;)18:11
djszapiiirc it was lardman18:12
faenil_it was not the same thing18:12
DocScrutinizerok, sorry then18:12
DocScrutinizeras mentioned above, I'm in throttled mode ;-D18:13
djszapianybody gotten any answer from Isle of Open Source ?18:14
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jktso, what is the qmake way of finding out that it's building for harmattan? (ie. like "unix" and "maemo5" for optional sections in the .pro file) I've tried "maemo6" and "harmattan", but they don't seem to work18:17
jktI've also tried to UTFG for that, but didn't found an answer18:17
hiemanshujkt: unix:!symbian:!maemo5 or something like that18:17
faenil_can't find anything, so if anyone knows the answer, please let me know :D18:17
jkthiemanshu: that sounds like "a unix system, but not maemo5 and not symbian", which rings a few alarm lights to me18:18
jkthiemanshu: but yeah, that's what the qt creator uses18:18
hiemanshujkt: yeah, nothing else is defined really18:20
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jktlooks like is what I need, which leads to, which is not accessible to me18:21
jktthat's a fail.18:21
faenil_am I the only one having problems with QtDN?18:22
faenil_400 bad request18:23
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mikhasjkt, that bug has been fixed recently18:27
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berndhsfaenil_: looks good from here18:28
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faenil_no 400 bad request?18:29
berndhsno, looks like a website18:29
mikhasjkt, seems they agreed on MEEGO_EDITION_HARMATTAN18:29
borcowhat is the correct way to detect that i am running on harmattan? is there some define?18:30
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faenil_berndhs: weird...I can't access the does that come :O18:31
berndhsthey don't like you ?18:32
DocScrutinizerfaenil_: check/clean your cookiejar18:32
berndhsit does say "beta" on the site18:32
faenil_DocScrutinizer: it was working until 5 mins ago, I'll try cleaning things up now18:32
DocScrutinizerfaenil_: so it might be load balancer issue18:33
faenil_nah works now...18:33
jktmikhas: as for the qmake scope, or for a C++ #define?18:34
DocScrutinizerfaenil_: some time (years) ago we had occasional inconsistencies on the server farm. This led to such effects. Not seen them for long time, but maybe Akamai is feeling nostalgic today ;-D18:34
faenil_ok :D18:35
DocScrutinizerthough I don't even know where is hosted now, in particular
mikhasC++ #define, for qmake scope it seems to be MEEGO_EDITION=harmattan18:36
mikhasbut not sure18:36
mikhasman, someone should have just posted the outcome of that bug on the public QTBUG …18:36
ajalkaneah annoying. Can't play music and record a video at the same time on N95018:37
DocScrutinizerseems like is is
faenil_trying to add this stupid glwidget in the qml...18:41
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DocScrutinizerajalkane: would that make any sense at all?18:48
DocScrutinizertechnically it *might* be possible to playback arbitrary sound via AV-headset connector, while recording same time from the builtin stereo mic18:49
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faenil_DocScrutinizer: bad request 400, again19:09
faenil_DocScrutinizer: I have deleted cache and cookie, and it's working, now I created a new thread, and boom, bad request again19:11
borcomikhas: worked as described on
borcomikhas: the define was not there otherwise...19:12
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mikhasah good19:26
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rzrhave u tested have u tested
* rzr is crazy19:38
djszapi_not yet not yet :)19:38
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rzrdjszapi: do what are u building now ? kdelibs seems over now ?19:43
faenil_somebody help me show my qglwidget inside a qml pleeeeeease ...19:44
djszapi_rzr: I build my life :)19:45
djszapi_faenil_: set the viewport, that is19:46
faenil_that only shows the widget...19:46
faenil_I need to add qml ui19:46
djszapi_wasn't it discussed few hours ago ?19:46
djszapi_what help do you need, something is not clear in theory, some implementation is buggy, or ?19:47
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faenil_it wasn't discussed, unfortunately, none could help me :D19:49
faenil_I mean19:49
faenil_I want to use the QDeclarativeItem way19:49
faenil_but what about resizeGL(), initializeGL()?19:49
faenil_something like this19:50
faenil_but they have just thrivial gl calls there19:50
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faenil_lol, am I unlucky or wut XD19:51
rantomis it just me or is the Store very crashy?20:05
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rantomi'm trying to download Flashlight and it just loops the oage and crashes, asking to be quitted20:05
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faenil_anyway, at the moment I'm trying the setViewport thing only20:13
faenil_but the glwidget now doesn't receive keypress anymore20:13
faenil_I'm also using setFocusPolicy(Qt::StrongFocus) on the widget20:13
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DocScrutinizerrantom: i tried minesweeper ans it froze the page while no feedback beyond that for actual action. Then otoh my router signalled heavy downloads for some 15min21:20
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rantomDocScrutinizer: I tried it on the 3G21:22
rantomSame issue, I think21:22
rantomAnd btw, if you disable automatic connections and launch Email with configured account, press then Refresh, the app closes21:23
rantomI'd file a bug but I don't know where to file it21:23
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rantomSince it's not in this case21:23
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RST38hMoo, people22:07
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tommarantom, try
rantomtomma: Thanks, I'll file it tomorrow when I have more time22:09
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RST38hYahooo: New York ordering first mandatory evacuations in city history22:11
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RST38hObama: Hurricane Irene likely to be 'historic'22:13
RST38hHave they run out of stories to run, or is it really going tobe historic? =)22:14
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Milhouseanyone with a suggestion how to get the N950 dial/hangup screen working again - have done absolutely *nothing* to the n950 since yesterday when it last worked... now, useless as a phone (have tried rebooting, plus removing the last contact I added)22:22
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Milhousehi... thank god for bug #347...22:24
MeeGoBotBug is not accessible22:24
Milhousejust got to the bottom of the bug comments and tried the instructions in comment #4 which seem to have done the trick! :)22:25
Milhouseshut up meegobot -
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djszapi_2Could someone please give me the url of the libqt4-gui package ?23:07
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fiferboyYES! My patch to allow user selectable colours in QML works!23:23
fiferboy(colours 1-19 from MeeGoTouch)23:25
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* GeneralAntilles wants Fennec.23:29
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fiferboyGeneralAntilles: Didn't I link you to Fennec the other day?23:34
GeneralAntillesDid youL23:34
fiferboyIf you want to build it yourself:
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* fiferboy just created a merge request for the colour patch in Qt Components :D23:51
javispedroGeneralAntilles: man, the builtin browser has to be quite bad if you are rooting for fennec! :)23:52
djszapi_2heh :D23:52
fiferboyjavispedro: You can root the N950?! ;)23:52
javispedronot that meaning of rooting!23:53
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