| *** piggz has joined #harmattan | 00:40 | |
| *** rm_you| has joined #harmattan | 00:48 | |
| *** neal` has joined #harmattan | 00:49 | |
| *** neal` is now known as neal | 00:49 | |
| *** CepiPerez has joined #harmattan | 00:53 | |
| * lardman curses not being able to see the edges of any of his QML elements | 00:59 | |
| lardman | and therefore having no clue whether they are actually extant | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| rcg | is there any way to detect when an app is "minime | 01:03 |
| *** piggz has quit IRC | 01:03 | |
| rcg | zed" and maximized | 01:03 |
| ajalkane | rcg: yes, see the QmlComponentGallery apps | 01:03 |
| rcg | err.. accidently hit enter.. but i guess you get the meaning ;) | 01:03 |
| rcg | ajalkane: great, will do | 01:03 |
| ajalkane | There's the Visibility tab that shows how to do it | 01:03 |
| lardman | night all | 01:04 |
| *** lardman has quit IRC | 01:04 | |
| rcg | ajalkane: ah, sweet! thats exactly what i was looking for. thanks :) | 01:05 |
| ajalkane | np | 01:05 |
| *** sudanix has joined #harmattan | 01:05 | |
| MohammadAG | - | 01:05 |
| MohammadAG | err, sorry about that | 01:06 |
| *** crevetor has quit IRC | 01:12 | |
| *** deimos_ has quit IRC | 01:23 | |
| npm | rm_you: fyi, i uploaded a new version of http://nielsmayer.com/meego/qml/qmltube_1.11.1_armel.deb (i fixed the prob. with all my .svn files getting copied into the deb and doubling the size) | 01:24 |
| npm | now to tame the .spec file | 01:25 |
| npm | rm_you: you mentioned you added the last version to your repo, this one is better since it's half the size and i fixed missing icons, etc. | 01:26 |
| *** andre__ has quit IRC | 01:38 | |
| *** mtd has quit IRC | 01:41 | |
| *** baraujo has quit IRC | 01:53 | |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 01:55 | |
| *** rcg has quit IRC | 01:57 | |
| wazd | Steve Jobs quits as Apple CEO | 02:16 |
| wazd | the world is safe now I guess :) | 02:16 |
| *** jkt has quit IRC | 02:19 | |
| mikhas | hm, so in one week I can buy Apple shares then | 02:19 |
| berndhs | yeah but you never know | 02:19 |
| berndhs | could be factions, fragmentation, and all that | 02:20 |
| berndhs | no wait that was Libya, sorry | 02:20 |
| MohammadAG | lol | 02:23 |
| *** jkt has joined #harmattan | 02:26 | |
| *** jkt has joined #harmattan | 02:26 | |
| MohammadAG | hiemanshu, can you hide the status bar in irc chatter when the vkb opens in landscape mode? | 02:30 |
| MohammadAG | most (all?) stock apps behave like that | 02:30 |
| mikhas | all | 02:31 |
| mikhas | well, if you use LMT or Qt Quick Components | 02:31 |
| MohammadAG | ty | 02:31 |
| MohammadAG | i'm guessing it's an mtf thing? | 02:31 |
| *** smoku has left #harmattan | 02:32 | |
| *** seeder has joined #harmattan | 02:39 | |
| *** berndhs has quit IRC | 02:43 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 02:47 | |
| *** Guest84219 has quit IRC | 02:56 | |
| *** CepiPerez has quit IRC | 02:56 | |
| *** npm has quit IRC | 02:56 | |
| *** npm has joined #harmattan | 02:56 | |
| *** seeder has left #harmattan | 02:58 | |
| *** seeder has quit IRC | 02:58 | |
| *** npm has quit IRC | 03:01 | |
| *** npm has joined #harmattan | 03:06 | |
| *** joejoe has quit IRC | 03:09 | |
| *** joejoe has joined #harmattan | 03:09 | |
| *** NIN101 has quit IRC | 03:28 | |
| *** willer_ has quit IRC | 03:29 | |
| smokex | if I were using qt designer based windows to develop a harmattan device instead of qt quick, how would I access that grey bar, add menus to it, etc | 03:39 |
| *** djszapi_ has quit IRC | 03:43 | |
| javispedro | you cannot | 03:43 |
| javispedro | (well, obviously you can, but it's kinda rocket science) | 03:44 |
| *** wazd has quit IRC | 03:44 | |
| *** djszapi_ has joined #harmattan | 03:47 | |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: I was wrong. Processes try to inherit the right by default. | 03:48 |
| djszapi_ | * credentials, that is | 03:48 |
| smokex | I like rocket science :D | 03:49 |
| smokex | so could you give me a general idea of where I would start | 03:49 |
| javispedro | hiding that bar via fullscreen and rendering your own =) | 03:50 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: is that documented anywhere? | 03:50 |
| trx | (then you loose the status bar too) | 03:50 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: read the code as I did. | 03:50 |
| javispedro | ah yeah, you have to render the status bar too, but you can get it from a shared pixmap that is on some window property. | 03:51 |
| *** djszapi__ has joined #harmattan | 03:51 | |
| javispedro | I do not think you can use that bar for anything other than the back button | 03:51 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: it is documented internally, but I have not had access to that right away. I am not sure about the public SDK. | 03:51 |
| djszapi_ | it does not mean I could reproduce your dmesh issue though. | 03:52 |
| javispedro | I wouldn't call it an "issue". But at least it is partially explained by that. | 03:53 |
| djszapi_ | no, that is not an explain for it | 03:53 |
| smokex | ok so fullscreen hides it nad tbh I don't need or want it :D thx | 03:54 |
| javispedro | trx: to sum it up, if you use plain Qt you face the same problems someone using Gtk+ will face, so, take care. | 03:54 |
| javispedro | err | 03:54 |
| djszapi_ | we do not do logging for that, that is up to the application developers. | 03:54 |
| javispedro | smokex^^ | 03:54 |
| smokex | ok thx its just a simple app to keep a transaction register | 03:55 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: it is actually a serious issue. | 03:55 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: since it should really not try to inherit any credential if the hash and other validations fail. I think it is a bug of your version | 03:56 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: I was using --relaxed-exec fwiw | 03:56 |
| javispedro | so potentially the hast test passed | 03:56 |
| javispedro | *hash | 03:56 |
| djszapi_ | duh..why did you not tell it to me ? :) | 03:56 |
| javispedro | I _always_ use relaxed exec ;) | 03:57 |
| djszapi_ | ... | 03:57 |
| djszapi_ | please provide precise scenario next time (including everything). | 03:57 |
| djszapi_ | this way, it was a lot of wasted thinking :) | 03:58 |
| *** djszapi__ has left #harmattan | 03:58 | |
| javispedro | but you discovered there's some kind of inheriting =) | 03:58 |
| djszapi_ | that is a separate thing which reveals a bug here for us | 03:58 |
| djszapi_ | oh no, it is fine with relaxed stuff | 03:59 |
| djszapi_ | but yes, check out out gdb and develsh | 03:59 |
| djszapi_ | BUT | 03:59 |
| djszapi_ | you can always limit this inheritance for sure | 04:00 |
| djszapi_ | and aegis-manifest-dev might even do that. | 04:00 |
| djszapi_ | but it is also very easy to manually add a non-add policy really, default empty request block | 04:01 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: I think it is actually weird since I would expect non-inheritance by default | 04:05 |
| djszapi_ | at put this logic into the manifest autogeneration as the default, but not as a default option for every binary. | 04:05 |
| djszapi_ | and* | 04:05 |
| javispedro | well.. | 04:08 |
| djszapi_ | it was not probably a high priority task to do it that way. | 04:09 |
| javispedro | it is probably easier for some people who forgoet to put each binary in the manifest, and probably harder for those who have many privileges and spawn lesser-privileged binaries =) | 04:09 |
| djszapi_ | since it is not nice in theory, but since you have quite a few protections for parents as well, it is not a simple thing to think of a use case scenario | 04:09 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: it is not easier at all | 04:09 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: if you use the Qt SDK, it uses the autogeneration anyways. | 04:10 |
| djszapi_ | so this logic would transparent, you would not forget it. Maybe you can forget to put aegis-manifest-dev into the control file if you are using scratchbox, but closing a security hole is more important than that. | 04:11 |
| djszapi_ | and it is really transparent by using the Qt SDK. | 04:11 |
| djszapi_ | and if you have a request blog for other reason without add policy, you do not even need the aegis-manifest-dev. | 04:11 |
| djszapi_ | block* :) | 04:13 |
| djszapi_ | mmm, maybe easier to port applications this way. | 04:16 |
| djszapi_ | and since the shells for instance from known source origin are confined enough regarding the credentials, and shells and other processes from unknown origin cannot be granted with every credentials, it makes the priority lower, and a use scenario harder. | 04:19 |
| *** leinir has quit IRC | 04:21 | |
| MohammadAG | you know what'd be awesome when multitouch is used? manipulating two things at once | 04:35 |
| MohammadAG | like, suppose i'm swiping, while i'm doing that, another finger can be scrolling in the window that's being swiped | 04:35 |
| javispedro | that leaves you with 8 free fingers! | 04:37 |
| MohammadAG | the task switcher can have those :p | 04:38 |
| GAN900 | MohammadAG, there's a certain point where multitasking becomes a sickness | 04:38 |
| GAN900 | But, yes, I still wish the N800 had had two dpads. | 04:38 |
| javispedro | also ,you can use the n950 with one hand and the n900 with the other hand | 04:39 |
| MohammadAG | GAN900, i think i hit that point when I started carrying two phones to get the job done | 04:39 |
| GAN900 | MohammadAG, I want retail firmware. :< | 04:39 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, still haven't figured out how to use them with the N86 | 04:39 |
| GAN900 | One of my friends used to play emulators on the bus with a Wiimote in one hand and an N800 in the other. | 04:40 |
| javispedro | hey, I think I know that guy. | 04:41 |
| MohammadAG | that's something i wouldn't do in my own car | 04:41 |
| javispedro | or a similar person who emailed me about a similar usecase. | 04:41 |
| MohammadAG | one question | 04:41 |
| MohammadAG | has anyone figured out wtf the blinking blue internet icon means | 04:42 |
| javispedro | it means: someone is fscking with your wi-fi. | 04:42 |
| javispedro | I usually get it when SNR gets low and soon it'll disconnect | 04:42 |
| javispedro | actually I think it already signals it's disconnecting. | 04:43 |
| javispedro | next time check /var/log/syslog :) | 04:43 |
| MohammadAG | but i'm connected to wifi and the 3G icon blinks | 04:43 |
| javispedro | so | 04:43 |
| * javispedro ponders how to map the compass usefully as a joystick device | 04:43 | |
| * MohammadAG wants nice compass graphics | 04:44 | |
| MohammadAG | QMLCompass: one of the apps that should be portrait only but isn't | 04:45 |
| javispedro | omg this is gonna be kickass. | 04:48 |
| javispedro | wait, nothing. | 04:48 |
| mikhas | MohammadAG, if only we hadn't deactivated multitouch in most of the core UI … | 05:19 |
| mikhas | during transitions, touch events are usually eaten up by the scene | 05:20 |
| *** Evgeniy has joined #harmattan | 05:27 | |
| *** meegomy_ has joined #harmattan | 05:32 | |
| *** berndhs has joined #harmattan | 05:48 | |
| javispedro | ok, seriously??? | 05:50 |
| javispedro | the logic that converts raw magnetometer values into bearing is PROPIETARY??? | 05:51 |
| javispedro | as is the one that gives out the supposedly calibrated magnetometer readings | 05:54 |
| GAN900 | lol | 06:02 |
| GAN900 | TRADE SECRETS!! | 06:03 |
| * javispedro had like 17 calculator windows opened, clearly a sign of too much hacking for today. | 06:06 | |
| *** twoboxen has joined #harmattan | 06:08 | |
| meegomy_ | have anyone involve in meego meetup? | 06:12 |
| rm_you| | loool | 06:19 |
| rm_you| | GAN900: yo | 06:20 |
| rm_you| | got kicked off earlier | 06:20 |
| rm_you| | what did you say about SnapGo? :P | 06:20 |
| *** sudanix has quit IRC | 06:23 | |
| *** javispedro has quit IRC | 06:27 | |
| *** twoboxen has quit IRC | 06:30 | |
| *** ajalkane_N950 has quit IRC | 06:50 | |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: I'll look into that | 07:00 |
| *** mikhas_ has joined #harmattan | 07:06 | |
| *** mikhas has quit IRC | 07:09 | |
| special | is Camera using qtmobility to access the camera? | 07:11 |
| *** berndhs has quit IRC | 07:13 | |
| *** berndhs has joined #harmattan | 07:22 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer has quit IRC | 07:30 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer has joined #harmattan | 07:31 | |
| *** hardaker has quit IRC | 07:33 | |
| *** twoboxen has joined #harmattan | 07:33 | |
| *** twoboxen has quit IRC | 07:35 | |
| *** berndhs has quit IRC | 07:38 | |
| *** harbaum has joined #harmattan | 08:16 | |
| *** lardman has joined #harmattan | 08:19 | |
| *** lardman has joined #harmattan | 08:19 | |
| lardman | morning | 08:19 |
| rm_you| | morning | 08:22 |
| ajalkane | how do you do | 08:22 |
| *** harbaum has quit IRC | 08:23 | |
| lardman | hi rm_you | 08:24 |
| lardman | ajalkane: not bad, you? | 08:24 |
| ajalkane | a bit tired, but otherwise excited to be bored at work | 08:25 |
| lardman | lol | 08:25 |
| * lardman is also rather tired, but in training for a new born who he hopes will soon arrive | 08:26 | |
| *** maxw has joined #harmattan | 08:27 | |
| Ronksu | "excited to be bored at work" sounds a bit mondayish :) | 08:27 |
| ajalkane | Exciting times ahead then. Boy or girl? | 08:28 |
| lardman | I'm having troubles remembering what day of the week it is having been on holiday for 2 weeks now | 08:28 |
| ajalkane | Yeah, lately all work days have felt worryingly mondayish | 08:30 |
| MohammadAG | no sleep for a day, fun times | 08:31 |
| lardman | QML is taunting me with cool looking UI effects and all I can see is a blank screen | 08:31 |
| MohammadAG | run the app with -style cleanlooks | 08:33 |
| ajalkane | Good old blank screen. At least it usually clearly points to the problem position | 08:33 |
| MohammadAG | without that i don't get errors | 08:33 |
| lardman | MohammadAG: on device? | 08:33 |
| MohammadAG | yeah, i have meegotouch-qt-style installed | 08:33 |
| * lardman removes all the ui components and goes back to coloured Rectangles | 08:34 | |
| MohammadAG | no no no | 08:34 |
| MohammadAG | it should say which line the problem's in | 08:34 |
| lardman | there is no problem | 08:34 |
| ajalkane | ListView taunts me with its inability to specify cool move/remove effects | 08:34 |
| lardman | just doesn't show anything on one of my pages | 08:34 |
| MohammadAG | no javascript logic either i guess? | 08:34 |
| lardman | ListView is one of the things I have on my page | 08:34 |
| *** spenap has joined #harmattan | 08:34 | |
| MohammadAG | if only there was ListWidget | 08:35 |
| MohammadAG | i hate making models | 08:35 |
| ajalkane | yeah models are a bore when anything dynamic is required | 08:36 |
| lardman | more of a pita when you don't need anything very complex | 08:36 |
| lardman | the docs could do with some better intro into how to use the model view stuff imo | 08:36 |
| MohammadAG | well, i could do all lists with a QListWidget in C++ | 08:37 |
| MohammadAG | QListWidgetItem 'item = new QListWidgetItem(), set all the stuff i need, and i'm done | 08:37 |
| MohammadAG | that's usually 3 to 4 lines of code | 08:37 |
| lardman | Delegates are simpler in QML at least | 08:38 |
| lardman | hmm, this is quite annoying | 08:40 |
| ajalkane | ListView can eat JS arrays as model if I remember correctly? That would do for simple case | 08:40 |
| lardman | I have Pages {} in seperate qml files and I instantiate them in a TabGroup - this works if I create Pages inline, but not if I try to create from the files | 08:41 |
| *** piggz has joined #harmattan | 08:41 | |
| lardman | am I right in thinking that I ought to be able to generate a component housed in a SummaryWindow.qml file by sticking SummaryWindow {id: summaryWindow } in my code? | 08:41 |
| ajalkane | yes lard | 08:41 |
| lardman | strange, it doesn't work | 08:42 |
| lardman | ah, might be an anchors problem... | 08:42 |
| lardman | nope | 08:42 |
| lardman | identical code inline and in the separate file and the latter doesn't work - I get a patterned background | 08:43 |
| lardman | which I guess means it's empty or somesuch | 08:43 |
| ajalkane | inline inside TabGroup\ | 08:44 |
| lardman | yeah or created inside TabGroup | 08:44 |
| ajalkane | and is the SummaryWindow also inline in TabGroup? | 08:44 |
| lardman | If I create a Page {} inline it works, if it's in a separate file it doesn't | 08:45 |
| *** antman8969 has joined #harmattan | 08:45 | |
| lardman | separate file but instantiated inside the TabGroup that is | 08:45 |
| MohammadAG | I didn't know you could create objects inline in QML | 08:45 |
| ajalkane | wobbly | 08:45 |
| lardman | crap, my fault | 08:46 |
| lardman | missing anchor | 08:46 |
| lardman | urgh | 08:46 |
| lardman | it would be good to be able to enable borders on the components so I could see them before I populate them and check where they are | 08:47 |
| ajalkane | the widget gallery app has a tool that enables something like that | 08:48 |
| ajalkane | i havent tested if it works only for mtf apps but also for qml | 08:49 |
| w00t_ | it won't work for QML | 08:51 |
| *** antman8969 has quit IRC | 08:51 | |
| *** piggz has quit IRC | 08:53 | |
| ajalkane | unfortunate. Sometimes I feel like using mtf. Then I look at the example code and go back to qml | 08:53 |
| lardman | Is it possible to obtain coordinate information from the qml engine for debugging purposes? E.g. if it would spit out a list of objects and their x,y,width,height that would be helful | 08:54 |
| lardman | helpful even | 08:54 |
| MohammadAG | weird, now when swiping a windows it becomes transparent | 08:56 |
| MohammadAG | cool bug | 08:56 |
| w00t_ | ajalkane: having done a lot of MTF, I have to say that you probably don't want to use it | 08:56 |
| *** maxw has quit IRC | 08:56 | |
| MohammadAG | why? | 08:56 |
| w00t_ | you can make nice things, but it's a lot easier to make the same nice things with QML | 08:56 |
| w00t_ | and it has a lot of very annoying performance characteristics which involve a lot of working around | 08:57 |
| MohammadAG | MTF in Qt Designer would make it awesome | 08:57 |
| ajalkane | lardman: well, each item has a list of children so you could do it | 08:57 |
| MohammadAG | w00t_, how's the grooveshark client coming along? | 08:58 |
| lardman | ajalkane: I seem to have spent loads of time messing about with my qml code only to find that I was missing an anchor | 08:58 |
| *** maxw has joined #harmattan | 08:58 | |
| w00t_ | MohammadAG: temporarily slowed down by real life atm, I have a mountain of paperwork to sort out and a house to redecorate | 08:59 |
| ajalkane | w00t_: I got that feeling too. Its just frustrating qt components miss many components used in bundled apps | 08:59 |
| rm_you| | ah someone is doing a grooveshark client? excellent | 08:59 |
| w00t_ | it can (sort of) play tracks, but has a lot of bugs in doing so | 08:59 |
| rm_you| | what are you writing it in? C? | 08:59 |
| w00t_ | I also have a half-done gulesider.no lookup client, but I doubt anyone outside of norway will be interested in that... :) | 09:00 |
| w00t_ | rm_you|: C++/Qt | 09:00 |
| rm_you| | what backend does it use to play music? | 09:00 |
| *** smoku has joined #harmattan | 09:00 | |
| ajalkane | lardman: I've had some major battles with those anchors too :) | 09:00 |
| MohammadAG | ah, k, any git repos around for it? | 09:01 |
| MohammadAG | w00t_, wait, no QML? | 09:02 |
| w00t_ | rm_you|: right now, QtMultimedia, but I'll be switching to using gstreamer directly to get working playing from a stream, sometime | 09:02 |
| w00t_ | MohammadAG: QML | 09:02 |
| w00t_ | I haven't pushed the work I have yet, as it's in a way incomplete state | 09:02 |
| w00t_ | I can push it to a branch I guess | 09:02 |
| w00t_ | https://github.com/rburchell/libgroove and https://github.com/rburchell/groovy for the client | 09:03 |
| w00t_ | MohammadAG: pushed to harmattan branch of groovy.. note that it has a bundled copy of libgroove for ease of building | 09:06 |
| *** xarcass has joined #harmattan | 09:09 | |
| lardman | anyone got any tips for working with columns? | 09:10 |
| lardman | I'm trying to get 3 columns to show up, but I can only see one | 09:10 |
| lardman | well the content of one that is | 09:11 |
| lardman | ah, using a row around the columns seems to have done the trick | 09:13 |
| lardman | phew | 09:13 |
| ajalkane | you're gonna experience a world of fun using anchors with those. I know I did! | 09:14 |
| lardman | yeah :( | 09:15 |
| ajalkane | I won't spoil anything | 09:15 |
| lardman | I'm at a loss as to how to make the 3 columns I have within my row take up the entire screen width | 09:15 |
| lardman | fine they will take up enough space to show their content (coloured rectangles for the time being), but that's not ideal at all | 09:16 |
| lardman | perhaps I should do away with the row and column and just anchor everything together | 09:17 |
| ajalkane | perhaps. Or you can do parent.width anchoring. Anyway, you're entering the fun-zone then | 09:18 |
| xarcass | lardman: i've found columns pretty useless, unless you're using repeater inside them. anchors are much better. btw, columns are pretty dumb - they can't cope with children that are dynamically change their size or position | 09:19 |
| lardman | I'm not sure I'm too keen on all the x,y absolute placements going on in the example qml code | 09:19 |
| lardman | xarcass: ok, that's what I've just realised, glad it's not just me :) | 09:19 |
| ajalkane | abs placement is an abomination | 09:19 |
| lardman | but seems necessary in qml | 09:20 |
| lardman | also absolute width and height | 09:20 |
| xarcass | lardman: wrong again | 09:20 |
| ajalkane | i've so far managed to avoid | 09:20 |
| lardman | I seem to need to set width and height of my components otherwise they default to size 0 | 09:21 |
| lardman | though I guess I could do that dynamically to fit the content | 09:21 |
| *** DocScrutinizer has quit IRC | 09:21 | |
| xarcass | why not to use anchors? | 09:21 |
| *** DocScrutinizer has joined #harmattan | 09:21 | |
| lardman | it didn't seem to work, so I assumed | 09:22 |
| lardman | but I may well be wrong | 09:22 |
| ajalkane | height I've had to set also... but never position | 09:22 |
| *** djszapi_1 has joined #harmattan | 09:24 | |
| sandst1 | lardman: anchors.fill: parent didn't help..? | 09:25 |
| lardman | sandst1: that's fine for a single component, but I need 3 columns in my Page | 09:25 |
| lardman | so I do anchors.fill: parent for the page, then am anchoring the left and right of each column to one another and to the edges of the parent | 09:25 |
| lardman | and I still see only one column | 09:25 |
| MohammadAG | ty w00t_ :) | 09:25 |
| w00t_ | patches welcome | 09:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | moo | 09:26 |
| MohammadAG | sure, just heading to bed for now | 09:26 |
| MohammadAG | moo DocScrutinizer | 09:26 |
| lardman | hi Doc | 09:27 |
| sandst1 | lardman: ok. and having a row with anchors.fill:parent and the columns inside the row with anchors.fill:parent didn't work either..? | 09:27 |
| *** djszapi_ has quit IRC | 09:27 | |
| MohammadAG | night everyone | 09:27 |
| sandst1 | lardman: now that i rethink that one, i think thaat won't work :) | 09:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ MohammadAG | 09:27 |
| lardman | I think the last column then fills the area with that one sandst1 | 09:28 |
| ajalkane | columns and rows with anchors equals fun-zone | 09:28 |
| lardman | night MohammadAG | 09:28 |
| lardman | I guess I could stick everything in a rectangle instead if that works better? | 09:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: seems like back when I did such layout in Qt designer ~5+ years ago that's not been any issue to make cols autoresize | 09:29 |
| lardman | and then along came QML ;) | 09:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 09:30 |
| lardman | urgh | 09:30 |
| lardman | replacing Column with Rectangle of course means I now need to anchor the contents to one another | 09:31 |
| lardman | spaghetti junction | 09:31 |
| lardman | surely there's a better way than needing to explicitly anchor everything? | 09:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | OTOH we rarely ever resize on devices/"window managers" like N9(50)/hildon|whatever | 09:31 |
| artemm | lardman: so you 3 columns to occupy width of the whole parent rectangle? | 09:32 |
| lardman | artemm: that's what I'd like | 09:32 |
| artemm | and be equal in width? | 09:32 |
| *** rcg has joined #harmattan | 09:32 | |
| lardman | not bothered about equal width, in fact I'd prefer them to resize according to the content | 09:32 |
| xarcass | lardman: if you have children which geometry changes dynamically, there's no other way | 09:32 |
| artemm | If their width changed dynamically, how can they fit whole parent width except by accident? | 09:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 09:33 |
| lardman | artemm: the columns default to fitting a 1/3rd of the width unless the content requires that they move | 09:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | changing width by content is hardly ever working OOTB | 09:34 |
| artemm | there got to be at least one flexible element that takes "the rest" of width | 09:34 |
| lardman | as would happen with layouts in Qt/C++ afaik | 09:34 |
| artemm | lardman, what happens in one of the column's content wants to be huge? | 09:34 |
| artemm | just trying to get the ideal picture of what you want | 09:34 |
| lardman | in C++, you set a min width for the layout and the other column can grow to fill the screen bar the min space required for the other column | 09:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | errr | 09:35 |
| artemm | so one of the columns is to be "rubber" and fit the remaining width? | 09:35 |
| lardman | that's what I'm used to, just trying to work out how on earth to get something to even display with QML | 09:35 |
| lardman | all of the columns should do that, and presumably thay is what should happen using anchors too | 09:36 |
| artemm | sorry, still can't get the logic of what you want | 09:36 |
| lardman | I need 3 columns on the screen | 09:36 |
| lardman | I can only display one atm | 09:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | width = 0.33 unless other col wants >0.33 for huge content, unless own content needs >0.33? | 09:36 |
| lardman | I can't anchor columns together | 09:36 |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 09:37 | |
| ajalkane | you cant, because row handles their position | 09:37 |
| artemm | ajalkane: that doesn't have to be a row | 09:37 |
| lardman | ok, now if I use a row, all my columns sit over on the LH side of the screen, how can I space them out within the row? | 09:38 |
| ajalkane | o, and shouldnt in this case i think | 09:38 |
| artemm | lardman: what I am after is the logic of negotiation after some column wants to be bigger or the other one smaller or both | 09:38 |
| djszapi_1 | lbt: what changed on obs recently ? kdelibs now seems to build in each repository without issue | 09:39 |
| sandst1 | lardman: is the row itself anchored to the center of the screen? | 09:39 |
| * xarcass wonders what lardman would do if orientation changes | 09:39 | |
| sandst1 | lardman: as in anchors.centerIn: parent | 09:39 |
| lardman | artemm: I don't see any logical difficultly there as long as the minimum widths are < screen width? | 09:40 |
| lardman | sandst1: no, to both edges | 09:40 |
| artemm | lardman: you told that u want columns fir whole screen | 09:40 |
| lardman | artemm: yes | 09:40 |
| sandst1 | lardman: try anchors.centerIn instead of anchoring both edges? | 09:40 |
| artemm | if screen is 1000px and columns need 100, 300 and 500, how will they use the screen space | 09:40 |
| *** elzalem has joined #harmattan | 09:41 | |
| lardman | sandst1: ok will give that a go, but I guess then I'll end up with my columns in the centre of the screen, but still not taking up the whole width? | 09:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: I'd think you could make left of 3 col minwidth=0.25 maxwidth=0.5 and fill the right 2/3...1/2 of screen with a rect taking the rest. Inside this rect you can place the other 2 cols with width=0.5, or you redo the same dance as for leftmost col, to prioritize which col can expand and which element will shrink then | 09:41 |
| sandst1 | lardman: yeap.. | 09:42 |
| lardman | artemm: I guess you'd allocate column x offsets as a proportion of the actual content widths and then scale all of the x offsets as any of the contents becomes larger than the allocated region | 09:42 |
| sandst1 | lardman: then i guess it's about entering the width: parent.width*x | 09:42 |
| lardman | sandst1: what I'd ideally like is for my 3 columns to be spread across the screen | 09:43 |
| lardman | sandst1: ok, that sounds like it would work, thanks | 09:43 |
| artemm | lardman: Aha! So you want the columns to take amount of screen proportionate to what theur column wants? | 09:43 |
| sandst1 | lardman: equally spread? | 09:43 |
| artemm | *to what their content wants | 09:43 |
| artemm | and regardless of absolute width of this content | 09:43 |
| lardman | sandst1: well they all have 50 pixel rectangles in them atm, so they will be equal, but not necessarily once they have something useful in them | 09:44 |
| lardman | sandst1: The problem I see with setting the absolute position as some fraction of parent.width is that then you may end up overlapping things presumably? | 09:44 |
| lardman | I guess I'll just anchor everything together | 09:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: doesn't this get handled by setting relative fractions of width as a pos? | 09:45 |
| sandst1 | lardman: i'm not 100% sure about overlapping, it could be also that the children in the row get only as much of the space as there's left | 09:46 |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: that would position them as I'd like, but then if one of the columns is > parent.width/#cols it will encroach on the others I expect | 09:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | sounds like QML is really terribly limited in what functions it provides to relieve pain of layout from developer | 09:46 |
| xarcass | lardman: if you'll decide to use these fractions, don't forget to Math.round() their results. otherwise, there will be unpleasant artifacts | 09:47 |
| lardman | xarcass: ok thanks | 09:47 |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: Well it seems very flexible, I was just hoping for some shortcut layout type elements to save me needing to do lots of anchoring while I'm testing code | 09:47 |
| xarcass | lardman: use copy/paste :) | 09:48 |
| lardman | xarcass: need to change the id I'm anchoring against though of course | 09:48 |
| ajalkane | set widths, but position with anchors | 09:49 |
| * xarcass remembers that video lecture about QML, where charismatic bald man said that it's ok to use copy/paste in QML coding | 09:50 | |
| * lardman goes to find caffeine before trying to write out the anchors between his 15-odd ui elements on this page | 09:50 | |
| artemm | width + positioning with anchors is easy. Doing that right now trying to get the column resizing logic. Everything works, but I still don't get the logic you want :) | 09:50 |
| *** veskuh has joined #harmattan | 09:50 | |
| artemm | ok, I give up probably | 09:51 |
| artemm | can't understand without a picture | 09:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: sorry, seems I didn't manage to get what's your design goal. Anyway there's either just one "rubberband" element in your layout, and that takes all of the remaining space, or you got several rubberband elements and aiui those will all be same width then | 09:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I dunno how to make width of main window increase when sigma_width of widgets in window is too large for the current window width | 09:52 |
| lardman | No worries chaps, I'll do some anchoring now I have a cup of coffee to hand :) | 10:01 |
| lardman | and thanks for all the suggestions and help :) | 10:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: basically my approach (NB while I got NFC about QML) would be to start up Qt Designer on my PC and click together a layout that meets my needs. Then check which fields of width_relative and width_abs and also posX_relative and _abs have which values. If QML doesn't support these values/semantics OOTB you need to code the underlying algorithms "by hand" (e.g if there's no posX_relative then use posX_abs=window.width()*$X_ | 10:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | relative) | 10:01 |
| *** harbaum has joined #harmattan | 10:02 | |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: The thing is I'm not quite sure how I'll handle the column widths and positions anyway, I just wanted to space them out so I could test and add in components and ensure that I can see them/check whether I need to set widths/heights | 10:03 |
| lardman | I'll probably end up with one column being partially offscreen then being flick-on-able | 10:03 |
| lardman | otehrwise the content will be too wide | 10:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can easily prototype and test different layout ideas in Qt Designer | 10:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | if you're happy with the result, transfer it to QML | 10:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | (of course unless there's maybe a similar too for genuine QML :-D ) | 10:05 |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: yeah, I've got most of the UI stuff sketched on paper, which is as good as | 10:05 |
| xarcass | lardman: how do you think to cope with orientation changes then? | 10:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/too /tool / | 10:05 |
| lardman | xarcass: I'll change anchors, but had hoped to only change anchors on my columns | 10:05 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer meant: (of course unless there's maybe a similar tool for genuine QML :-D ) | 10:05 |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 10:07 | |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 10:07 | |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 10:07 | |
| lardman | It's my fault really, I'd not realised that absolutely everything requires explicit anchors | 10:07 |
| xarcass | lardman: a lot of work lies ahead of you. especially if all this is placed inside a flickable. have you considered using tabs? | 10:08 |
| lardman | xarcass: I am using tabs already | 10:08 |
| lardman | xarcass: but yeah, I realise there's some work to do, but it should be pretty easy to get the anchors right, just will take some time | 10:09 |
| xarcass | lardman: then there's a lot of content in your app.. | 10:09 |
| lardman | I'll have a column with scanner barcode image and under that the type of barcode and scan date, centre column has some buttons to copy&paste, save to file, web search and underneath is the plugin supplied "widget" and right and column is the plugin list that alters what is displayed in the centre column | 10:10 |
| lardman | that would be landscape, portrait some of the columns will move to become rows, etc | 10:11 |
| lardman | hmm, not the best spelling in the world there, hope it made some sense :) | 10:14 |
| xarcass | lardman: that's not so much as i've thought. can't see any tabs though | 10:14 |
| lardman | I've got tabs for the history list and settings pages | 10:14 |
| xarcass | lardman: my point was that this design isn't too complicated as i suspected. actually, it's piece of cake. i'm sure you'll manage :) moreover, afterwards you'll remember present difficulties with laughter | 10:17 |
| lardman | xarcass: indeed the design is very simple, which is why it's so frustrating not being able to actually get much to display on screen :) | 10:18 |
| lardman | does one need to set the top and bottom anchors of touching elements or is setting just one enough? | 10:19 |
| xarcass | xarcass: i clearly remember how pathetic i was when i began QML coding. it'll pass soon enough. keep trying | 10:19 |
| lardman | yeah I know, just fruistrating as this should be the easy bit :) | 10:19 |
| xarcass | lardman: it's either top anchor and height, or both top and bottom anchors | 10:20 |
| lardman | but for both elements which are touching? | 10:20 |
| lardman | as the top anchor of the bottom element is just repeating the bottom anchor of the top element | 10:21 |
| lardman | repeating the link anyway | 10:21 |
| xarcass | usually, when i fill a column, i set top anchor and height for all elements which height can be calculated | 10:21 |
| lardman | ok cool | 10:21 |
| *** Mek has quit IRC | 10:26 | |
| *** khertan has joined #harmattan | 10:27 | |
| * lardman cries | 10:27 | |
| *** Mek has joined #harmattan | 10:28 | |
| lardman | and curses his Rectangles which don't want to line up, or even appear other than the first one | 10:28 |
| mariob | lardman: You just have to make sure you have a width and height for Rectangles. Either by anchoring or by settings width/height | 10:29 |
| lardman | ah, missing anchors on the contents | 10:29 |
| lardman | yeah I set width/height but forgot to anchor these ones which had been commented out while I was testing a single column | 10:29 |
| khertan | Morning | 10:29 |
| mariob | lardman: :) | 10:29 |
| lardman | curious that the rectangles don't sit at their parent's origin though | 10:30 |
| lardman | though perhaps my anchoring of the fake-column rectangles is also broken | 10:30 |
| mariob | lardman: Inspect the output carefully and look for anchoring loops and other errors | 10:32 |
| lardman | definitely no errors in the output | 10:33 |
| *** djszapi_1 has quit IRC | 10:33 | |
| lardman | it seems my fake-column rectangles aren't anchoring to one another, they all just sit at the origin and draw ontop of one another | 10:33 |
| xarcass | lardman: you can easily check this out by putting console.log("x" + x) in some hook, like Component.onCompleted | 10:36 |
| lardman | xarcass: I've got coloured squares being drawn so can see it's not working, but thanks | 10:36 |
| lardman | I'll just pastebin it and if anyone can tell me why the Items (which were Rectangles, but as they are just layout elements that was overkill) don't anchor that would be great | 10:37 |
| * xarcass also likes colored rectangles. especially when debugging geometry issues | 10:37 | |
| lardman | http://pastebin.com/4ZXNK6sL | 10:39 |
| lardman | all the columns/Items seem to draw, but all of the columns are drawn stuck to the LH side of the screen | 10:41 |
| lardman | so it seems the anchoring of the Items isn't working for some reason | 10:41 |
| xarcass | anchors { left: parent.left; top: parent.top; } - that's in the root Item. now try to guess which would be the height of that Item? | 10:41 |
| lardman | presumably it will be as high as the content | 10:42 |
| lardman | which is what happens on the screen anyway | 10:42 |
| xarcass | wrong. correct answer is zero | 10:42 |
| lardman | odd, because that column is drawn | 10:42 |
| xarcass | can be easily checked by adding "clip: true" | 10:42 |
| xarcass | don't forget that clipping is disabled by default | 10:43 |
| mariob | xarcass: Me too remember the old days with height/width problems :) | 10:43 |
| lardman | ok, so I'll add bottom: parent.bottom to all of the Items | 10:43 |
| lardman | but still they are all drawn over the first column | 10:44 |
| xarcass | it's not related to geometry problem, but nonetheless: fillMode: Image.PreserveAspectFit - this has meaning probably only if you set Image size directly | 10:44 |
| lardman | xarcass: I've not got round to testing that yet, need to get something to display first ;) | 10:45 |
| lardman | does one need to set the size of the image element? It doesn't take it from the source image file? | 10:45 |
| artemm | it should | 10:45 |
| lardman | The image will only be a thumbnail anyway, so I'll need to set either the width or height | 10:46 |
| xarcass | clear. your columns overlap because they not only have zero height, but zero width also | 10:46 |
| *** djszapi has joined #harmattan | 10:46 | |
| lardman | hmm, so they don't take on the width of their child elements? | 10:47 |
| xarcass | never | 10:48 |
| lardman | I'm too busy thinking of these things as layouts rather than as elements in their own right | 10:48 |
| lardman | silly me | 10:48 |
| lardman | thanks, that should solve quite a few problems then | 10:48 |
| xarcass | lardman: you have two import QtQuick lines - with different versions at that. beware: if you are using two different versions of QtQuick, even if they are in different QML files, your app's memory footpring may increase by 100+M. i've seen this myself | 10:51 |
| lardman | I was copying one of the example files that did that | 10:51 |
| djszapi | hiemanshu: did the import work on N950 ? | 10:51 |
| lardman | but I'll remove version 1.0 | 10:51 |
| lardman | thanks xarcass | 10:52 |
| *** andre__ has joined #harmattan | 10:55 | |
| *** andre__ has joined #harmattan | 10:55 | |
| *** frinring has joined #harmattan | 10:59 | |
| *** wazd has joined #harmattan | 11:08 | |
| *** mzanetti_borg is now known as mzanetti_work | 11:09 | |
| *** leinir has joined #harmattan | 11:22 | |
| rcg | what's the best way to install additional -dev packages into the QtSDK Madde sysroots? | 11:36 |
| rcg | http://library.developer.nokia.com/index.jsp?topic=/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_API/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Reference_documentation_MADDE_terminal_user_guide_Adding_packages_to_MADDE_targets_cb2e.html | 11:40 |
| rcg | ah.. that should do the trick | 11:40 |
| *** achipa has joined #harmattan | 12:07 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #harmattan | 12:10 | |
| lardman | Has anyone noticed strange issues with text.width? | 12:13 |
| lardman | I've got a qml file to create a button, and it specifies: height: text.height + 10; width: text.width + 20 | 12:14 |
| lardman | but the buttons seem to be far larger than that | 12:14 |
| *** djszapi has left #harmattan | 12:14 | |
| lardman | ah, it's not using my Button implementation, that could be the reason why | 12:15 |
| *** smoku has joined #harmattan | 12:15 | |
| *** lamikr has quit IRC | 12:18 | |
| *** Arkenoi has quit IRC | 12:23 | |
| *** Arkenoi has joined #harmattan | 12:24 | |
| *** sudanix has joined #harmattan | 12:38 | |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 12:38 | |
| *** lamikr has quit IRC | 12:49 | |
| ajalkane | | | 12:49 |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 12:49 | |
| *** lamikr has quit IRC | 12:50 | |
| artemm | Hmm, why am I seeing qDebug() output when I choose Harmattan Release target in QtCreator? | 12:55 |
| artemm | a bug? Or am I misunderstanding how qDebug works? | 12:55 |
| artemm | same about QML/JavaScript's console.debug() actually | 12:55 |
| artemm | MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan API, not Platform API for Harmattan if it matters | 12:56 |
| artemm | qmake build steps (from Projects tab) don't include CONFIG+=debug | 12:58 |
| rcg | "... This function does nothing if QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT was defined during compilation. ..." | 13:00 |
| rcg | from the qDebug api docs | 13:00 |
| leinir | artemm: Even while your own code might be release compiled, Qt can still be compiled with debug :) | 13:00 |
| rcg | seems like you have to explicitly disable debug output | 13:00 |
| artemm | oh.. | 13:00 |
| leinir | Ah right :) | 13:00 |
| artemm | does it mean that N950 includes debug version of Qt only? | 13:01 |
| artemm | I am seeing these debug prints from HW | 13:01 |
| rcg | afaiu enabling/disabling debug in the build via e.g. CONFIG+=debug only triggeres whether your project is build with debug symbols enabled | 13:01 |
| artemm | hey, I am seeing my own debug prints, so doesn\t it mean that my code is debug built? | 13:01 |
| rcg | artemm: afaik the -dbg packages are not installed by default | 13:01 |
| rcg | there are *-dbg packages available though | 13:02 |
| artemm | well, when I choose Release build, CONFIG+=debug is not included | 13:03 |
| rcg | well.. i dunno if _not_ setting CONFIG+=debug implicitly means QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT is passed during compilation | 13:03 |
| artemm | that's what Project tab shows | 13:03 |
| artemm | where do you put QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT? | 13:03 |
| artemm | to qmkae arguments? | 13:03 |
| artemm | *qmake | 13:03 |
| ajalkane | Ddd | 13:04 |
| ajalkane | Excuse my manners | 13:04 |
| artemm | what I am actually worried about is that I can't see whether my build is really release or debug one :) Seeing debug prints is one of the signs only | 13:05 |
| artemm | I don't need debug prints and debug symbols in the final build | 13:05 |
| *** khertan has quit IRC | 13:06 | |
| rcg | artemm: hmm yeah, ic | 13:07 |
| artemm | aha, QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT goes to DEFINES in the .pro file | 13:07 |
| artemm | I have small hope that it's not my code is so slow, but it is just compiled for DEBUG, while I thought it's RELEASE :) | 13:08 |
| ajalkane | If theres lots and lots of debug logging, it'll slow it down | 13:10 |
| artemm | Actually any app launch prints some 10-20 lines about "MeegoGraphics", found drivers, etc. - that is obviously coming from the system | 13:10 |
| artemm | Added DEFINES += QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT to pro file, ran qmake, rebuilt, still seeing my qDebug() prints | 13:11 |
| rcg | hmm artemm you are right.. just checked here.. even in release "-g" is passed as g++ command line option | 13:15 |
| artemm | sorry, I was wrong. Proper rebuild removed qDebug prints | 13:15 |
| artemm | console.debug are still printed though | 13:15 |
| rcg | ic | 13:15 |
| artemm | what is -g? | 13:15 |
| rcg | http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Debugging-Options.html#Debugging-Options | 13:15 |
| artemm | also that QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT removed my own debug prints, but not the system ones. So I assume I am still linking to debug libs somehow | 13:16 |
| *** meegomy_ has quit IRC | 13:16 | |
| rcg | ".. -g Produce debugging information in the operating system's native format .." | 13:18 |
| artemm | reading this.. | 13:18 |
| artemm | that is still about my own code, isn't it? | 13:18 |
| *** veskuh has left #harmattan | 13:18 | |
| rcg | yep.. so essentially afaik "-g" means g++ is adding debug stuff to a build | 13:19 |
| artemm | hmm, I don't see any -g in the qmake line | 13:19 |
| artemm | Here's "effective qmake call": | 13:19 |
| artemm | qmake /Users/artem/WorkArea/Dropbox/discountcalc/trunk/discountcalc-harmattanapp/discountcalcharmattanapp.pro -r -spec linux-g++-maemo -unix | 13:19 |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 13:19 | |
| rcg | not in the qmake call | 13:20 |
| artemm | also my app is 95% QML + JavaScript, so I should be more worried about linking to release libraries, shouldn't I? | 13:20 |
| rcg | in the g++ calls | 13:20 |
| rcg | well dunno how this is handled in the QML part | 13:20 |
| artemm | as qml is interpretable anyway and release optimization could maybe kill qDebug prints and that's it | 13:20 |
| artemm | *searching Compile output for g++ call | 13:21 |
| artemm | indeed -g is passed there | 13:21 |
| artemm | how can I control it? | 13:22 |
| rcg | heh.. dunno.. | 13:22 |
| rcg | always thought switchin between "release" and "debug" would take care of it ;) | 13:23 |
| artemm | me too :) | 13:23 |
| rcg | actually never looked that precisely at what its really doing | 13:23 |
| artemm | well, there's hell a lot of problems with default project properties set by QtCreator harmattan wizard | 13:23 |
| artemm | I guess just nobody had a serious look at it | 13:23 |
| artemm | *went to read about QMAKE_CXXFLAGS | 13:24 |
| rcg | well.. just had a look at my build in scratchbox.. this also builds with "-g" set | 13:25 |
| tomma | CONFIG-=debug CONFIG+=release should do the trick | 13:25 |
| artemm | there seems to be QMAKE_CXXFLAGS_RELEASE flag | 13:25 |
| artemm | oh | 13:25 |
| artemm | thanks, tomma, will try it now | 13:26 |
| artemm | nope, -g is still passed to g++ | 13:27 |
| rcg | tomma: just checked.. it doesnt | 13:27 |
| rcg | strange thing | 13:27 |
| rcg | http://linux.die.net/man/1/g++ | 13:28 |
| rcg | -g Produce debugging information in the operating system's native format | 13:28 |
| rcg | just to have the correct source ;) | 13:28 |
| artemm | somebody had similar problems - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5715543/how-to-change-qmake-release-flags-for-gcc-change-o2-to-os | 13:28 |
| artemm | not that I understood how to use the answer though | 13:28 |
| rcg | well.. i really need to hit the road... | 13:29 |
| artemm | it's a pity | 13:29 |
| artemm | :) | 13:29 |
| artemm | good luck with your way anyway | 13:30 |
| artemm | maybe somebody else can help | 13:30 |
| tomma | does it give -02 to g++ ? | 13:30 |
| rcg | thanks.. i hope you get your issue sorted out as well :) | 13:30 |
| tomma | then it is building release with debuginfo... no idea why | 13:30 |
| artemm | tomma, yes it does | 13:31 |
| tomma | well it can be removed with QMAKE_CXXFLAGS -= -g | 13:31 |
| tomma | i hope | 13:31 |
| xarcass | i suppose, in release version it just strips binary before adding resources. in my case, binary is 300k in release and 6M in debug builds | 13:31 |
| artemm | Just added QMAKE_CXXFLAGS -= -g to pro file, ran qmake, started build, still seeing -g | 13:32 |
| xarcass | and yes, it has -g flag in release. and -O2 as well | 13:32 |
| artemm | oups | 13:32 |
| artemm | wrong var | 13:32 |
| artemm | QMAKE_CXXFLAGS_RELEASE -= -g helped | 13:33 |
| artemm | there's no -g in g++ call anymore | 13:33 |
| artemm | should I also remove -O2? | 13:33 |
| xarcass | what would be the point? | 13:33 |
| artemm | I am not sure which exactly flags to care about for producing fastest non-debug build | 13:34 |
| artemm | well, I don't really know qmake | 13:34 |
| tomma | -02 is for optimizing | 13:34 |
| xarcass | removing -g won't help here | 13:34 |
| artemm | trying to optimize the final build | 13:34 |
| artemm | funny, package creation seems to be requesting -g from the system | 13:35 |
| artemm | dpkg-buildpackage: set CFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 | 13:35 |
| artemm | dpkg-buildpackage: set CPPFLAGS to default value: | 13:35 |
| artemm | dpkg-buildpackage: set LDFLAGS to default value: | 13:35 |
| artemm | dpkg-buildpackage: set FFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 | 13:35 |
| artemm | dpkg-buildpackage: set CXXFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 | 13:35 |
| artemm | does it mean it links to the debug libraries> | 13:35 |
| artemm | ? | 13:35 |
| xarcass | no | 13:35 |
| tomma | it links to same libraries but includes debug symbols in binary | 13:35 |
| xarcass | -g adds debug info. which will be stripped in release anyway | 13:36 |
| tomma | but doesn't it strip binary in packaking? | 13:36 |
| artemm | well yeah, packaging packages already compiled code | 13:36 |
| artemm | what if I don't want the debug symbols? | 13:36 |
| artemm | the real question is how to make my final build the fastest possible. Questions about debug symbols are supposed to help me get there | 13:37 |
| xarcass | try debug build, look at the size of the package and feel the difference. there's no debug symbols in release binary, i'm almost sure | 13:37 |
| *** baraujo has joined #harmattan | 13:38 | |
| xarcass | well, there are many ways to make things faster here: less JS, more C++. and QML booster, maybe | 13:38 |
| artemm | trying debug build now | 13:38 |
| artemm | qml booster is used already | 13:38 |
| artemm | well, current speed isn't that bad | 13:39 |
| artemm | but if I want to improve it by playing with config options, why not :) | 13:39 |
| artemm | *if I can | 13:39 |
| xarcass | one more thing: guys from nokia office, to whom we are sending our packages, say that it works much faster on the N9 than on the N950 | 13:40 |
| artemm | what could be a reason? | 13:40 |
| artemm | just fresher build? | 13:40 |
| artemm | or image compiled with release libs? | 13:40 |
| xarcass | probably | 13:40 |
| xarcass | very likely | 13:40 |
| artemm | that would be good | 13:41 |
| villager | artemm: the debug symbols added by -g has zero, *zero*, effect on performance as they're not used unless you're debugging, but it is good practice to always include it in the build... though the packaging process removes the symbols anyway for size | 13:41 |
| artemm | right now when starting app on N950 I see quite many system debug messages | 13:41 |
| villager | artemm: but using -O2 (or even -O3) is important for good performance... | 13:42 |
| xarcass | villager: can't agree with you: adding these symbols significantly increases deployment time, which isn't convenient | 13:42 |
| villager | xarcass: I doubt that matters after packaging, since they're stripped away then | 13:43 |
| villager | xarcass: and before, they're pretty useful if you need to get a backtrace or whatever | 13:43 |
| villager | xarcass: anyway I'm talking runtime performance, of course | 13:43 |
| xarcass | my apps do not produce backtraces :) | 13:43 |
| artemm | made release and debug build to compare sizes | 13:46 |
| artemm | difference in the final .deb package is 6 bytes.. | 13:46 |
| * xarcass just tried debug build and is very surprised with all these 500 warings | 13:46 | |
| artemm | not a whole lot of binary optimization :) | 13:46 |
| lardman | hmm, my symbols weren't being removed | 13:46 |
| mikhas_ | xarcass, artemm: take note that QML models tend to be on the inefficient side of things | 13:47 |
| xarcass | then I was wrong about size | 13:47 |
| mikhas_ | always querying a full blown QObject for example, for each model.get | 13:47 |
| xarcass | but I can remember that i've seen this. can't remember when, though | 13:47 |
| artemm | Mikhas_, true, but 6 bytes of removed debug symbols? | 13:47 |
| mikhas_ | (or creating one, for model.set) | 13:47 |
| mikhas_ | so if you want to speed up your views, consider optimizing the models | 13:48 |
| xarcass | yes, i've remembered, that was before it was optimized for the booster! | 13:48 |
| artemm | there's very small amount of models in my app | 13:48 |
| artemm | quite a lot of property binding during start though | 13:48 |
| artemm | that is something to optimize too | 13:48 |
| mikhas_ | oh | 13:48 |
| artemm | but compiler flags are easier to try :) | 13:48 |
| *** rcg has quit IRC | 13:48 | |
| artemm | it's a pity qml analyzer isn't released yet | 13:50 |
| artemm | tried it about a month ago on some own-built version of QtCreator, didn't work at all | 13:50 |
| artemm | to close the topic about linking optimization: should I be worried seeing this kind of messages during startup: | 13:51 |
| artemm | MeegoGraphics: found EGL_NOK_image_shared | 13:51 |
| w00t_ | no | 13:51 |
| artemm | Isn't it something system should NOT tell in the release build? | 13:51 |
| w00t_ | your application may be built in release mode, the library telling you that is not | 13:51 |
| artemm | sorry, don't understand :/ | 13:52 |
| w00t_ | your application uses libraries, such as Qt | 13:52 |
| w00t_ | when you build your application, you don't build Qt | 13:52 |
| artemm | you mean I am using the debug version of library? | 13:52 |
| w00t_ | so, building your application in release mode doesn't affect how Qt (for instance) was built | 13:52 |
| artemm | ok, then is it possible to link against the release version of Qt? | 13:52 |
| w00t_ | you are, it just has debug messages enabled | 13:53 |
| artemm | I used to do similar stuff at Symbian times, but Qt world is still new to me :) | 13:53 |
| w00t_ | that is, it has been built without debug symbols, with optimisations, but with qDebug() enabled | 13:53 |
| artemm | then the final devices (in consumer hands) will probably have all this stuff optimized firther and running faster, right? | 13:54 |
| mikhas_ | the final devices will poop double rainbows | 13:54 |
| *** macmaN has quit IRC | 13:54 | |
| artemm | I don't care about rainbows unless they are pooped with 60fps at least ;0 | 13:55 |
| artemm | :) | 13:55 |
| w00t_ | the particular bug that causes this to be neccesary is complicated, so I doubt it'll be fixed in time, and besides that, the few debug messages that come from Qt itself won't affect performance | 13:55 |
| lcuk | mikhas_, photos or it didn't happen! | 13:55 |
| lcuk | I thought n9 final devices were tri coloured :P | 13:55 |
| artemm | i guess it means that performance I see on N950 will be similar to final N9 (maybe jsut a little faster) | 13:56 |
| artemm | thanks for your patience | 13:56 |
| mikhas_ | well, core apps are still being optimized | 13:57 |
| w00t_ | well, the software that will be released will be newer (and different, ideally a lot better) from what you have now | 13:58 |
| mikhas_ | for 3rd party apps this means: we leave more CPU juice and memory for you | 13:58 |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 13:58 | |
| artemm | thanks | 13:58 |
| artemm | *now went to search why javascript's console.debug() is printing when qDebug() doesn;t | 13:58 |
| spenap | artemm, maybe you have to run your application with -output-level debug ? | 13:59 |
| *** lamikr has quit IRC | 14:00 | |
| mikhas_ | wasn't that only for LMT apps? | 14:00 |
| artemm | well, I want to disable console.debug() prints in release build | 14:00 |
| w00t_ | mikhas_: right | 14:00 |
| *** macmaN has joined #harmattan | 14:00 | |
| artemm | BTW, does anybody know roughly how long a printing a line takes? Around 20-50ms? | 14:00 |
| artemm | thinking abt how strict I need to be removing the debug prints | 14:01 |
| w00t_ | much less than that | 14:01 |
| w00t_ | much much less | 14:01 |
| w00t_ | it also depends on where they're going | 14:01 |
| artemm | ok, thanks | 14:01 |
| artemm | then it's not so critical, I have just a few | 14:01 |
| artemm | maybe 10-15 lines during startup | 14:02 |
| w00t_ | console.debug can't be disabled, btw | 14:02 |
| w00t_ | (I just checked) | 14:02 |
| artemm | funny, why does it exist separately from console.log then? :) | 14:02 |
| w00t_ | it's tied to qDebug | 14:02 |
| artemm | oh well, it's probably javascript implementation | 14:02 |
| w00t_ | so it *can* be disabled, but not without rebuilding Qt | 14:02 |
| artemm | w00t_: on C++ side of my code qDebug doesn't print anything (disabled by QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT or QMAKE_CXXFLAGS_RELEASE -= -g) | 14:03 |
| artemm | and Javascript side still is able to print via console.debug() | 14:04 |
| w00t_ | remember what I said about libraries | 14:04 |
| w00t_ | this use of qDebug is inside Qt itself, which isn't built with QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT | 14:04 |
| w00t_ | 'this use' being console.debug() | 14:04 |
| artemm | then why qDebug's on C++ side of my code can be disabled? | 14:04 |
| w00t_ | qDebug is entirely inline | 14:06 |
| w00t_ | i.e. contained within headers | 14:06 |
| artemm | ok, got it | 14:06 |
| artemm | thanks | 14:06 |
| w00t_ | when you define QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT, Qt turns it off for where you've included it, i.e. your code | 14:07 |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 14:08 | |
| *** rcg has joined #harmattan | 14:15 | |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 14:20 | |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 14:20 | |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 14:20 | |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 14:27 | |
| *** willer_ has joined #harmattan | 14:31 | |
| *** NIN101 has joined #harmattan | 14:49 | |
| *** berndhs has joined #harmattan | 14:50 | |
| artemm | Is anybody able to debug on N950? | 14:53 |
| artemm | When I "Start Debugging" I get The gdbserver process closed unexpectedly. | 14:54 |
| artemm | soon after "Can't bind address: Address already in use." | 14:54 |
| *** CepiPerez has joined #harmattan | 14:57 | |
| xarcass | wlan or usb? | 15:01 |
| artemm | wlan | 15:05 |
| artemm | but maybe I was too quick | 15:05 |
| artemm | just figured qml debugging library wasn't built | 15:05 |
| xarcass | try to enable 'background connections' | 15:05 |
| artemm | maybe that's the reason | 15:05 |
| mikhas_ | use the USB connection | 15:07 |
| artemm | nope debugging lib didn't help | 15:07 |
| artemm | what is backgroundconections? | 15:08 |
| artemm | *went for usb cable | 15:09 |
| *** Arkenoi has quit IRC | 15:16 | |
| artemm | usb didn't help | 15:17 |
| artemm | same result | 15:17 |
| xarcass | i have just tried debug - works perfectly with breakpoints and all that stuff. through USB. | 15:22 |
| xarcass | try to enable background connections and ensure that power saving is disabled | 15:22 |
| *** NIN101 has quit IRC | 15:23 | |
| artemm | hmm | 15:25 |
| artemm | what are these background connections? | 15:25 |
| artemm | in device? | 15:25 |
| artemm | in qt creator? | 15:25 |
| xarcass | yes, in settings->internet connection | 15:26 |
| xarcass | device | 15:27 |
| artemm | trying | 15:27 |
| xarcass | however, i doubt that it'll help with USB | 15:27 |
| artemm | had to disable flight mode to see background connections setting (discounnted from wlan manually) | 15:27 |
| artemm | same result :/ | 15:28 |
| artemm | ok, will try over wlan then :) | 15:28 |
| xarcass | it was in the flight mode? | 15:28 |
| artemm | to connect via usb you need to disable wlan | 15:28 |
| artemm | connection to qt creator was still happening | 15:28 |
| xarcass | something is wrong with your setup. i can use both simultaneously. do you have latest firmware? | 15:29 |
| artemm | heh, I think I've seen debugging working fine about a week ago | 15:30 |
| artemm | not sure as I didn't really use it, just was playing with the device | 15:30 |
| artemm | latest public n95- fw | 15:30 |
| artemm | n950 fw | 15:30 |
| xarcass | have you flashed it yourself? with that one-click-something? | 15:31 |
| artemm | maybe I just restart everything | 15:31 |
| artemm | with one-click-something | 15:31 |
| artemm | about a week or two ago | 15:31 |
| artemm | Could use of booster influence the process somehow | 15:32 |
| xarcass | well, reboot also helps sometimes. apart from that there's nothing more that I can offer, unfortunately | 15:32 |
| artemm | ? | 15:32 |
| *** trx has quit IRC | 15:32 | |
| artemm | I think it's only wholeapp level thing i changed lately | 15:32 |
| xarcass | my app is also boosted, but debugger works nevertheless | 15:33 |
| artemm | does QML analyzer works for you? | 15:33 |
| artemm | that is the actual reason why I want debugging | 15:33 |
| artemm | so if it doesn't work yet, no need to struggle with getting debugging started | 15:34 |
| artemm | surprise-surprise restart helped :) | 15:36 |
| artemm | and starting of debugging takes a loooot of time | 15:37 |
| artemm | so many slow messages about loading libraries | 15:37 |
| *** trx has joined #harmattan | 15:37 | |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 15:40 | |
| artemm | debugger is "setting breakpoints" for about 10 min already. Is it normal? | 15:43 |
| *** Evgeniy has quit IRC | 15:44 | |
| xarcass | that's normal | 15:45 |
| artemm | gosh :( | 15:45 |
| artemm | ok, now I remember why I didn't use debugger earlier :) | 15:46 |
| artemm | never was patient enough | 15:46 |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 15:47 | |
| *** lcuk has quit IRC | 15:47 | |
| *** lcuk has joined #harmattan | 15:47 | |
| *** javispedro has joined #harmattan | 16:01 | |
| *** hardaker has joined #harmattan | 16:04 | |
| artemm | Is it possible to develop for Harmattan using QtCreator 2.3 (in release candidate for now) | 16:08 |
| artemm | Harmattan plugin works nice for 2.2 on my computer, but I am not sure how to add it to 2.3 if it's possible at all | 16:09 |
| *** crevetor has joined #harmattan | 16:10 | |
| *** crevetor has quit IRC | 16:13 | |
| *** crevetor has joined #harmattan | 16:16 | |
| radiofree | javispedro: your qsparql bug has been fixed, it's just not in the beta sdk | 16:16 |
| artemm | oh, 2.3 can open 2.2. projects and all the settings. nice | 16:16 |
| javispedro | radiofree: nice to know! | 16:16 |
| radiofree | version 0.0.30 has the fix, also, it's import QtSparql 0.1, not 1.0 | 16:16 |
| radiofree | QtSparql 1.0 may work, but that's a bug in qt | 16:16 |
| javispedro | radiofree: so, can it be used, or it has any other showstopper bugs? | 16:16 |
| radiofree | 0.1 will work in scratchbox and on device for sure | 16:16 |
| radiofree | yes it can be used, along with the endpoint driver | 16:17 |
| javispedro | many thanks! | 16:17 |
| radiofree | which doesn't work on the device in 0.0.27 (the version in the beta sdk) | 16:17 |
| radiofree | in a future release there will be a whole new set of qml bindings (will maintain this SparqlResultList for compatibility though) | 16:18 |
| javispedro | ah | 16:18 |
| radiofree | so you'll be able to issue SPARQL queries directly in QML, and use the results there :) | 16:18 |
| radiofree | var results = sparqlConnection.select(somequery) for example | 16:18 |
| radiofree | but in terms of list models, SparqlResultList is fine | 16:19 |
| javispedro | that's mostly what I want | 16:19 |
| javispedro | I'm doing an app that is mostly a list of results from a tracker query, | 16:19 |
| radiofree | the problem with SparqlResultList is that it doesn't have a get() function | 16:19 |
| javispedro | along with maybe a thumbnail extractor (I was considering putting it in tracker itself but it's not that used) | 16:19 |
| radiofree | but there should be other ways around that | 16:20 |
| artemm | Could not connect to the in-process QML debugger: | 16:21 |
| artemm | The application is not set up for QML/JS debugging. | 16:21 |
| artemm | What could that mean? | 16:21 |
| artemm | it is a debug build, qml debugging library is compiled, "link to qml debugging library" is set, debugging type is set to "qml only". What else does it need? | 16:22 |
| artemm | It's QtCreator 2.3 RC if it matters | 16:22 |
| *** qgil has joined #harmattan | 16:23 | |
| javispedro | radiofree: feel free to close it then (or should I do that?) | 16:28 |
| xarcass | artemm: i suppose, that would require presence of that qml debugging library on the device. in short: won't work | 16:31 |
| artemm | why wouldn't it exist on device? | 16:31 |
| xarcass | because our fw is fairly old, that's why :) | 16:32 |
| artemm | I though this "qml debugging library" is statically linked and deployed together with my app. Otherwise why would I need to build it from qt creator | 16:32 |
| artemm | oh well, I believe you know better | 16:33 |
| xarcass | this may be the case. i don't know exactly | 16:33 |
| artemm | then no qml profiling until next fw for me | 16:33 |
| radiofree | javispedro: keep it open, I'll comment on it | 16:33 |
| xarcass | artemm: have you tried analyzer? it's grayed out for me | 16:34 |
| radiofree | javispedro: if you fancy building it yourself https://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/qsparql/trees/pr_1_0 has all the fixes | 16:35 |
| javispedro | radiofree: thanks for that too, was going to do it :) | 16:35 |
| RST38h | g'day javispedro | 16:35 |
| javispedro | morning RST38h | 16:35 |
| *** faenil_ has joined #harmattan | 16:35 | |
| faenil_ | YEEEEEEEEEEEY | 16:35 |
| faenil_ | challenge completed! | 16:36 |
| faenil_ | from 0.2fps to 20fps :D | 16:36 |
| faenil_ | hoped to get to 60, but anyway XD | 16:36 |
| javispedro | a 100x increase? what were you doing, sending the rendered frames via a web service or what? :D | 16:36 |
| faenil_ | ahahah | 16:37 |
| faenil_ | well I have | 16:37 |
| faenil_ | 10k floor tiles | 16:37 |
| faenil_ | and 2k boxes | 16:37 |
| faenil_ | in this testcase | 16:37 |
| faenil_ | at 0.2 I was using a drawcall for each floor tile and for each box :) | 16:38 |
| elpuri | faenil_: next up occlusion culling =) | 16:38 |
| faenil_ | Now I'm using a VBO for the floor, and another VBO for boxes :D | 16:38 |
| faenil_ | elpuri: don't think this is the case, because I want the user to be able to look at the whole level, so it must be smooth without culling too :) | 16:38 |
| artemm | xarcass, I can start analyzer from Qt Creator 2.3 RC. Well, I can try starting it as debugging session start can't be completed | 16:39 |
| elpuri | you've got 10k tiles visible on the screen at all times? | 16:39 |
| elpuri | wow.. ;) | 16:39 |
| faenil_ | nope, this is an extreme test case :) | 16:40 |
| faenil_ | but I want the user to be able to look at the whole level while having a nice framerate | 16:40 |
| faenil_ | so I have to make it smooth without culling too... | 16:41 |
| xarcass | artemm: so, it doesn't work yet. that's a shame. i have to wait more, then | 16:41 |
| artemm | I can't make it work, but it's not the analyzer | 16:41 |
| artemm | I can't start ondevice debugging | 16:41 |
| artemm | from Creator 2.3 | 16:41 |
| artemm | if you can do it, you may be able to use analyzer as well | 16:41 |
| faenil_ | anyway, I have named it, it's Qtoban! :D | 16:41 |
| xarcass | artemm: i can't afford such experiments as installing RC versions | 16:43 |
| artemm | creator isn't whole Qt | 16:43 |
| artemm | it can easily coexist with another instance | 16:43 |
| *** lamikr has quit IRC | 16:43 | |
| xarcass | artemm: i've tried once or twice, it screwed up all my setup. so i don't even think about this now | 16:44 |
| artemm | well, not even trying is certainly safer :) | 16:44 |
| xarcass | artemm: tight deadlines, unfortunately | 16:46 |
| artemm | and work hard for those deadlines! I want better firmware soon! :) | 16:46 |
| elpuri | i wish people would stop naming their apps q<something> | 16:47 |
| xarcass | artemm: that's not my responsibility. i'm just app coder | 16:47 |
| lardman | elpuri: iSomething instead? ;) | 16:47 |
| elpuri | not that either ;) | 16:47 |
| elpuri | unless you're apple | 16:48 |
| lardman | There was the same issue with mSomething for Maemo apps | 16:48 |
| artemm | elpuri, isn't it like a developer-type signature? Kind'of "normal users, please ignore my app, it has a developer-ui and normal people can't use it" :) | 16:48 |
| kimju | g<something>, k<something>, m<something> for gnome, kde, maemo/meego.. | 16:48 |
| lardman | It does mean you can use a noun and not bother to think to hard | 16:49 |
| lardman | at least that's my excuse | 16:49 |
| faenil_ | elpuri: I hate that too...but looking for a nice name is so hard! | 16:49 |
| faenil_ | elpuri: my problem is that my game is a clone, so I can't give a whole new name afaik...or can I? | 16:50 |
| elpuri | artemm: exactly. i think the goal here is to try to give meego/harmattan a credible app portfolio, hence the names should be "normal" imo | 16:51 |
| elpuri | faenil_: why not | 16:52 |
| elpuri | call it tilepalooza | 16:52 |
| faenil_ | elpuri: don't know, licence something? | 16:52 |
| artemm | elpuri, only if you want to create apps for normal people :) | 16:52 |
| faenil_ | not bad XD | 16:52 |
| artemm | not everybody cares | 16:52 |
| faenil_ | tilepalooza | 16:52 |
| faenil_ | :D | 16:52 |
| artemm | any sane product manager would instantly kill any qApp name | 16:52 |
| elpuri | tileissimo | 16:52 |
| artemm | as it says nothing to end user | 16:53 |
| faenil_ | ok I have time to think about another name | 16:53 |
| faenil_ | I just needed one to create my local repo | 16:53 |
| faenil_ | to track the changes :) | 16:53 |
| elpuri | artemm: exactly | 16:53 |
| faenil_ | I Should find something like StockThemUp | 16:54 |
| faenil_ | don't know XD | 16:54 |
| faenil_ | or | 16:54 |
| faenil_ | WarehouseKeeper, simple | 16:54 |
| faenil_ | no, people would misunderstand it | 16:54 |
| elpuri | FuckEmUp | 16:55 |
| xarcass | faenil_: what's the game like? | 16:55 |
| elpuri | sokoban clone? | 16:56 |
| faenil_ | it's sokoban clone | 16:56 |
| faenil_ | in 3D | 16:56 |
| xarcass | faenil_: Angry Boxes | 16:56 |
| faenil_ | ahahah yeah xD | 16:56 |
| faenil_ | that's something people would download :D | 16:56 |
| faenil_ | and then be disappointed about xD | 16:57 |
| xarcass | faenil_: then don't disappoint them | 16:57 |
| faenil_ | xarcass: I'll try to, but I'm just learning OpenGL :) and doing this game for a university exam too :D I have 10 days left to finish it XD with a level editor | 16:57 |
| faenil_ | omg don't let me think about it XD | 16:58 |
| faenil_ | anyway thanks for the names :D | 16:59 |
| * xarcass has just received confirmation from nokia that all application bugs are fixed at last. it's time for some vodka now | 17:00 | |
| faenil_ | yey :) | 17:01 |
| faenil_ | is there any news about a fw update for us mortals? | 17:02 |
| *** Kypeli has quit IRC | 17:02 | |
| xarcass | faenil_: it's just an app, that would be preinstalled on the devices in our region. nothing special. it's definitely not a fw, not even a part of it | 17:03 |
| faenil_ | xarcass: I did not mean to refer to your msg :D | 17:03 |
| faenil_ | I was asking about our N950 fw update :D | 17:03 |
| faenil_ | the actual fw is bugged enough :D | 17:03 |
| *** Kypeli has joined #harmattan | 17:06 | |
| faenil_ | The internal deadline for the release version of the FW should be 29th.. | 17:09 |
| faenil_ | so I hoped we were getting some love :D | 17:09 |
| *** NIN101 has joined #harmattan | 17:14 | |
| *** maxw has quit IRC | 17:15 | |
| faenil_ | elpuri: is there anything I can do to speed up thing like disabling the compositing? | 17:18 |
| faenil_ | things* | 17:18 |
| *** xarcass has quit IRC | 17:18 | |
| javispedro | if you are fullscreen it is already disabled | 17:19 |
| faenil_ | oh ... ok then... | 17:20 |
| faenil_ | :) | 17:20 |
| faenil_ | swiping away is very slow :D | 17:21 |
| mariob | faenil_: disable "Developer Mode" increases performance, according to MeeGoExperts, | 17:21 |
| javispedro | doubtful | 17:21 |
| faenil_ | something ... | 17:22 |
| faenil_ | gained 0.2 fps | 17:22 |
| faenil_ | :D | 17:22 |
| javispedro | even more doubtful | 17:22 |
| faenil_ | I just tried XD | 17:22 |
| faenil_ | and gained 0.2fps | 17:22 |
| thp | wazd: ping | 17:23 |
| javispedro | your testing method is flawed | 17:23 |
| faenil_ | but 0.2 is almost nothing... | 17:23 |
| MohammadAG | developer mode is a metapackage | 17:23 |
| javispedro | faenil_: it should have shown _no difference_ | 17:23 |
| MohammadAG | it can't affect performance | 17:23 |
| faenil_ | ok, trust you :D | 17:24 |
| faenil_ | I'll try again | 17:24 |
| MohammadAG | it could be that tracker or something like that was running before he disabled it | 17:24 |
| elpuri | do you receive any signal when the swiping starts? | 17:24 |
| javispedro | technically yes | 17:25 |
| elpuri | you could take screenshot and render just that paused state while user is swiping | 17:25 |
| faenil_ | yeah | 17:25 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, inside QApplication? | 17:25 |
| javispedro | MohammadAG: an atom is set | 17:25 |
| javispedro | er | 17:25 |
| javispedro | a property | 17:25 |
| faenil_ | but that's the last problem actually :) I have to pause the game too, because otherwise the phone is very slow | 17:25 |
| javispedro | therefore you should get a Propertynotify | 17:25 |
| MohammadAG | ah, so changeEvent() shoild do it | 17:25 |
| javispedro | I'm, my atom cheat sheet is missing this one | 17:26 |
| MohammadAG | when an app is thrown in the background there's a property set | 17:26 |
| javispedro | http://depot.javispedro.com/pen/meegoatoms.png ;) | 17:26 |
| faenil_ | lol | 17:27 |
| javispedro | the arrows in the first column indicate who sets the property and who reads it | 17:28 |
| javispedro | MTF = meegotouch, COMP = mcompositor, swipe = propietary swipe code | 17:28 |
| MohammadAG | good, now make that in qml so it can have arrows with transitions!1 | 17:28 |
| *** cpscotti has joined #harmattan | 17:29 | |
| mikhas_ | you know, you could have just asked | 17:29 |
| mikhas_ | but I guess it was more fun this way | 17:30 |
| elpuri | javispedro: you've got a great letter e | 17:30 |
| MohammadAG | blinking 2G icon, wtf does it mean? | 17:30 |
| javispedro | mikhas_: yes :) | 17:30 |
| MohammadAG | there goes my operator logo | 17:30 |
| javispedro | the atom you're looking for the swipe starting is _MEEGOTOUCH_MINIMIZE_ANIMATION | 17:33 |
| * javispedro adds to cheat sheet | 17:33 | |
| lardman | anyone know if it's possible to set the anchors of one element to be the same as another? | 17:34 |
| lardman | I've tried anchors: blah.anchors | 17:35 |
| faenil_ | can't | 17:35 |
| lardman | but apparently that's not allowed | 17:35 |
| MohammadAG | lardman, set them manually to what the anchor of the first one? | 17:37 |
| lardman | MohammadAG: yeah I need to display a placeholder if I don't have an image, so want it to sit exactly where the image is | 17:38 |
| lardman | and to be anchored identically | 17:38 |
| lardman | I've done it manually now, written out each one of top, bottom, left, right | 17:38 |
| MohammadAG | lardman, anchors.fill: firstone | 17:39 |
| lardman | ah, cool | 17:39 |
| MohammadAG | placeholder, achors.fill: notplaceholder | 17:40 |
| lardman | thanks | 17:40 |
| *** spenap has quit IRC | 17:46 | |
| *** harbaum has quit IRC | 17:47 | |
| lardman | more questions :) using a Label, how do I change the background colour? | 17:59 |
| lardman | or is the background transparent already? | 18:00 |
| *** BrettQ has joined #harmattan | 18:00 | |
| javispedro | hah | 18:01 |
| javispedro | so both Nokia and the WebOS use the exact same propietary library to control the vibrator | 18:01 |
| javispedro | Immersion VibeTonz | 18:01 |
| * javispedro notes in its list of features the ability to set "vibratory ringtones" | 18:01 | |
| lardman | javispedro: is control of the vibrator so complex that it requires a closed library? | 18:02 |
| javispedro | lardman: I'm having a lot of similar surprises recently | 18:02 |
| javispedro | lardman: yesterday found out that the piece of code that converts raw magnetometer reading into bearing is also closed and licensed from a 3rd party | 18:02 |
| lardman | interesting | 18:03 |
| mikhas_ | lardman, yes it is complex | 18:04 |
| lardman | mikhas_: fair enough | 18:04 |
| SpeedEvil | It's not that complex | 18:04 |
| SpeedEvil | It's annoying. | 18:04 |
| SpeedEvil | But it's not actually hard. | 18:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Spherical harmonics of the field are easy to compute. | 18:05 |
| mikhas_ | lardman, we find a specially designed feedback and then they need to figure out how to do it | 18:05 |
| mikhas_ | s/find/want | 18:05 |
| javispedro | hey, less work for me. I can just now apply Palm's SDL Haptics patch to my SDL. | 18:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Then you just use that and the derived gravity vector, bit of filtering, and out pops direction | 18:05 |
| mikhas_ | Easier to just buy the stuff. | 18:06 |
| lardman | mikhas_: ah I see, I didn't realise it did haptic feedback too | 18:06 |
| lardman | I was thinking of tuning for ringtones :) | 18:06 |
| * javispedro finds the ringtone part more difficult | 18:06 | |
| javispedro | but I guess I don't really value the current state of haptic effects on the N950 (nonexistent) | 18:07 |
| javispedro | only the vkb seems to produce some | 18:07 |
| mikhas_ | With complex I judge based on the amount of issues I've seen. | 18:07 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: probably Meego will be looking for an OSS version of such code soon :) | 18:07 |
| *** BrettQ has left #harmattan | 18:08 | |
| mikhas_ | javispedro, why? | 18:08 |
| javispedro | realmeego/meegoCE I mean | 18:08 |
| javispedro | I guess they want all those nifty q{,ml}compass applications to keep working | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: i think we have a redistributable license | 18:08 |
| javispedro | aaw. | 18:09 |
| *** BrettQ has joined #harmattan | 18:09 | |
| Stskeeps | you'd be surprised how difficult it is to get open licenses for bleeding edge mobile tech | 18:11 |
| javispedro | either way, I'm with SpeedEvil, it just requires someone figure out the math and get whatever magnetic model data is required | 18:11 |
| javispedro | aka noone will ever do it :) | 18:11 |
| lardman | both of those are described in detail on wikipedia iirc | 18:12 |
| javispedro | https://www.loveelectronics.co.uk/Tutorials/8/hmc5883l-tutorial-and-arduino-library | 18:15 |
| javispedro | "We cover the following: ... Explain how to calculate a bearing from this data." | 18:15 |
| lardman | I see they correct for declination | 18:17 |
| *** djszapi_ has joined #harmattan | 18:17 | |
| *** BrettQ has quit IRC | 18:17 | |
| lardman | would be interesting to compare angle of magnetic field lines with accelerometer | 18:17 |
| javispedro | that was the reason I was thinking a model would be required | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: no complaints for any open impl :P | 18:17 |
| javispedro | depending on the quality of the open impl, data might be of worse quality | 18:18 |
| lardman | javispedro: there is a model somewhere I dug it out a few months back when we were talking about using compass field line angles as a location method | 18:18 |
| SpeedEvil | There is widely available opensource code. | 18:18 |
| *** BrettQ has joined #harmattan | 18:18 | |
| *** CepiPerez has quit IRC | 18:19 | |
| SpeedEvil | Openpilot | 18:22 |
| SpeedEvil | For example - has usable code | 18:22 |
| SpeedEvil | http://git.openpilot.org/browse/OpenPilot/flight/Libraries/WorldMagModel.c | 18:22 |
| *** wazd has quit IRC | 18:24 | |
| * RST38h is kinda back | 18:24 | |
| RST38h | Anything new and/or exciting? | 18:24 |
| javispedro | naah | 18:24 |
| javispedro | well | 18:25 |
| javispedro | steve jobs left but I guess you knew that | 18:25 |
| RST38h | Earthquakes? Financial crisis? Black plague? Steve Jobs hitting the bucket? | 18:25 |
| javispedro | also cmdrtaco leaving slashdot | 18:25 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Good, let us start our timers | 18:25 |
| javispedro | weird week. | 18:25 |
| RST38h | javispedro: ~5 years until Apple gets finished | 18:26 |
| javispedro | the question would be wether that happens before or after Nokia is finished ;) | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Poor CmdrTaco will have to do something morespectacular in order to get my attention though. | 18:26 |
| RST38h | javispedro: After. Not really a question. | 18:26 |
| RST38h | "The departure of Steve Jobs as boss of Apple was expected to result in a mass sell-off of the overpriced vendor's shares this morning, but the news has been overshadowed by larger events." | 18:27 |
| *** BrettQ has quit IRC | 18:27 | |
| RST38h | javispedro: But August is certainly a month where fabrique of reality is thin and tends to tear =) | 18:28 |
| *** rcg has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| *** frinring has quit IRC | 18:34 | |
| *** BrettQ has joined #harmattan | 18:38 | |
| alterego | lcuk: ping | 18:43 |
| alterego | lcuk: cool news from alex. :) | 18:43 |
| lcuk | cool and not so cool | 18:44 |
| lcuk | alex is a star | 18:44 |
| *** jkt has quit IRC | 18:45 | |
| lcuk | alterego, providing I can find footing knowing more about microsoft phones would not be a bad thing | 18:45 |
| RST38h | lcuk: pretty much all you need to know about MS phones is "C#" | 18:46 |
| alterego | Well, I'd be really interested in doing it and I have a fair amount of C# etc experience. | 18:47 |
| RST38h | which automatically kills all high-perf applications | 18:47 |
| RST38h | There *is* a native SDK, but MS onlyships it to selected developers | 18:47 |
| alterego | lcuk: unfortunately I think I'm out of the country in oct :/ | 18:47 |
| alterego | But depending when it is I might be able to fly back from the US for it. | 18:48 |
| djszapi_ | lcuk: are you experienced with C# ? | 18:48 |
| alterego | bbiab | 18:49 |
| *** SpeedEvil has quit IRC | 18:50 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has joined #harmattan | 18:51 | |
| * lardman is sick of QML | 18:53 | |
| lardman | time for some nice C++ code | 18:54 |
| lardman | can't believe I called C++ nice, but that's the effect QMl has on you | 18:54 |
| RST38h | Hehe | 18:54 |
| lardman | though actually QML is growing on me, should make for some nifty looking UIs | 18:54 |
| RST38h | I actually found a way to abstract QML | 18:55 |
| javispedro | is it XML based? | 18:55 |
| RST38h | So that now I can go into a QML dialog,return from it, and still retain my original QWIdget | 18:55 |
| RST38h | javispedro: No, CSS+Javascript | 18:55 |
| javispedro | ah | 18:55 |
| javispedro | RST38h: as on your apps? But it is slow.. | 18:55 |
| * lardman retreats into the wonders of barcode decoders for some light relief | 18:56 | |
| RST38h | The two really bad problems are 1) QML is so heavy that creating a QML widget takes 3-5 seconds and 2) no way to run QML as part of my event loop, it needs its own | 18:56 |
| lardman | decoding a full res photo from the N950 takes too much time for my liking | 18:56 |
| RST38h | javispedro:Well, you have seen how I have done it (packages are out there) | 18:56 |
| RST38h | javispedro: aside from QML taking 3-5 secs to show the UI, it lookssemi-decently | 18:57 |
| lardman | app startup seems quite slow, but the there's that cache thing that I ought to checkout eventually | 18:57 |
| RST38h | lardman: I am afraid that in my case it is not about loading .sos | 18:57 |
| *** rcg has joined #harmattan | 18:57 | |
| RST38h | lardman: Looks like just *creating* the hierarchy, loading all the images, etc takes time | 18:57 |
| RST38h | starting up JS engine too, probably | 18:58 |
| mikhas_ | RST38h, I doubt current state of QML makes it suitable for "complex" UI's | 18:58 |
| RST38h | mikhas: I do not have anything "complex". Just a file selector, a config dialog, and an about dialog | 18:58 |
| mikhas_ | erm, oops | 18:58 |
| lardman | what res are the camera photos on the N950? | 18:59 |
| RST38h | Would have SPARQL-based file selector, but the SPARQL QtQ component is not on our devices | 18:59 |
| javispedro | RST38h: oh, see the conversion I had today about that | 18:59 |
| javispedro | RST38h: it is fixed on next fw | 19:00 |
| RST38h | There are basically two reasons to use QML: 1) Nokia says so and 2) They managed to make all the other UI options (including Qt) barely usable | 19:00 |
| RST38h | javispedro: cooolio, so I will be able to have a nice file dialog =) | 19:00 |
| MohammadAG | i'm up for fixing the qt theme | 19:01 |
| *** jkt has joined #harmattan | 19:01 | |
| javispedro | MTF is also usable | 19:01 |
| *** jkt has quit IRC | 19:01 | |
| *** jkt has joined #harmattan | 19:01 | |
| * RST38h makes a move to hug MohammadAG | 19:01 | |
| MohammadAG | i could get more done with Qt | 19:01 |
| javispedro | and it is still quite fast, ~1sec for unboosted boot for hello world app | 19:01 |
| lardman | MohammadAG: +1 | 19:01 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Yes, but MTF requires you to rewrite your whole program in some dead tongue | 19:01 |
| MohammadAG | an MTF Qt Designer plugin would be awesome | 19:01 |
| javispedro | they look all dead to me. | 19:01 |
| MohammadAG | RST38h, QML does the same | 19:02 |
| RST38h | javispedro: I actually tried using MTF but stopped after finding out that it is totally incompatible with anything | 19:02 |
| MohammadAG | I wrote my Qt/C++ programs since forward compatibility was promised | 19:02 |
| RST38h | MohammadAG: Quim continues saying that QML has a future =) | 19:02 |
| javispedro | it is not incompatible with graphicsview ;P | 19:02 |
| MohammadAG | oh nice | 19:02 |
| javispedro | but yeah, MTF is NOT Qt | 19:02 |
| MohammadAG | the bug in fremantle where it thinks music is still running is there | 19:02 |
| MohammadAG | MTF is a KDE wannabe | 19:02 |
| RST38h | QWidget-based stuff and MTF are incompatible | 19:03 |
| lcuk | djszapi_, I know .net stuff, spent years doing vb.net ;) | 19:03 |
| RST38h | ok, back to the hotel | 19:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: C# is not VB | 19:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: C# is Java | 19:03 |
| RST38h | same vm nowadays though | 19:03 |
| javispedro | though if he has done vb.net he knows the ms class names | 19:03 |
| MohammadAG | RST38h, give me one language that's been cross compatible | 19:04 |
| javispedro | SDL! | 19:04 |
| javispedro | /C ;) | 19:04 |
| djszapi_ | lcuk: excellent, you need to teach me at some day :) | 19:04 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, in the sense that you don't write your own ui | 19:04 |
| javispedro | =) | 19:05 |
| MohammadAG | take my app, sociality as an example | 19:05 |
| MohammadAG | sexy on maemo 5 | 19:05 |
| MohammadAG | looks crappy on a desktop, but still somewhat good | 19:05 |
| MohammadAG | sucks on meego and symbian | 19:05 |
| javispedro | (after a long train of thoughts that is too long to explain) this is what happens when you buy a toolkit library. | 19:07 |
| MohammadAG | QML, good concept, but I hate web development cause of the syntax | 19:07 |
| lcuk | djszapi_, lol | 19:07 |
| javispedro | also: slow. | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | yes | 19:08 |
| javispedro | We now have hw where all applications now launch in second-times and we use it to add another layer of abstraction so that we are back into the 5-6 seconds range | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | I moved from python to C++ cause I hate interpretted code | 19:08 |
| *** fiferboy has joined #harmattan | 19:09 | |
| MohammadAG | can someone do some binary patching so the damn quick launch opens even when the device isn't top up | 19:10 |
| javispedro | isn't it mostly useless? | 19:11 |
| javispedro | the shortcuts are not configurable | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | no, thanks to the absence of a camera key | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | it's the fastest way to open the camera for me | 19:12 |
| javispedro | MohammadAG: file a device bug | 19:12 |
| MohammadAG | what if they say patches welcome? | 19:13 |
| javispedro | "binary" patches welcome? | 19:13 |
| MohammadAG | no, hardware ones to add a camkey :p | 19:13 |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, it's a design decision | 19:14 |
| MohammadAG | open the bar and flip the device to landscape mode | 19:14 |
| MohammadAG | (even when the keyboard is open) | 19:14 |
| javispedro | yeah, I've teste | 19:14 |
| javispedro | but design decision or not, looks like a user confusing bug | 19:14 |
| MohammadAG | another thing | 19:15 |
| MohammadAG | can't someone also binary patch the regex that decides which status plugins to load | 19:15 |
| MohammadAG | instead of volume, ****** | 19:15 |
| javispedro | I would prefer to zap the person that wrote that | 19:16 |
| MohammadAG | blame aegis, it's open source | 19:16 |
| *** arcean has joined #harmattan | 19:16 | |
| *** elzalem has quit IRC | 19:17 | |
| *** lamikr has joined #harmattan | 19:17 | |
| *** elzalem has joined #harmattan | 19:20 | |
| *** fiferboy has quit IRC | 19:22 | |
| *** achipa has quit IRC | 19:31 | |
| MohammadAG | javispedro, query me | 19:33 |
| *** piggz has joined #harmattan | 19:41 | |
| *** smoku has quit IRC | 19:50 | |
| *** sudanix has quit IRC | 19:52 | |
| *** wazd has joined #harmattan | 19:58 | |
| *** [XeN] has joined #harmattan | 20:00 | |
| DocScrutinizer | MEH, on unplugging device in act_dead (aka "not powered on") from charger, it blocks power-on for several seconds as it first needs to finish shutdown from act_dead state. Extremely annoying / confusing | 20:01 |
| javispedro | same as N810 | 20:01 |
| wazd | heya all | 20:01 |
| javispedro | N8x0 | 20:01 |
| MohammadAG | yeah, quite annoying | 20:01 |
| MohammadAG | same happens on power off | 20:02 |
| faenil_ | MohammadAG: yeah | 20:02 |
| Stskeeps | wazd o/ | 20:02 |
| MohammadAG | I use /sbin/reboot | 20:02 |
| MohammadAG | will editing .bashrc or .profile eff up aegis? | 20:02 |
| javispedro | the ones in your home, surely not | 20:03 |
| MohammadAG | I want export PATH=$PATH:/sbin:/usr/sbin | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: for power-off it's at least kinda obvious why it is that way | 20:03 |
| MohammadAG | root's | 20:03 |
| lardman | hmm, can I not kill -9 something because of aegis? | 20:03 |
| lcuk | lardman, nope | 20:03 |
| MohammadAG | develsh lardman | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | while unplugging from charger you *think* it *is* off | 20:03 |
| lardman | I am root, ssh | 20:03 |
| djszapi_ | lardman: you can if you CAP::kill rights | 20:03 |
| MohammadAG | develsh | 20:03 |
| djszapi_ | * have | 20:03 |
| lardman | ah ok, so it is aegis related | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes | 20:04 |
| djszapi_ | yes, of course. | 20:04 |
| lardman | I need to devel-su to get the rights | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | and develsh might cure it | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | as ssh root isn't exactly develsh | 20:04 |
| lardman | cool, will try that next time, thanks chaps | 20:04 |
| djszapi_ | lardman: nope | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | or devel-su, yeah | 20:04 |
| MohammadAG | devel-su is just a working su | 20:05 |
| MohammadAG | no aegis privs | 20:05 |
| djszapi_ | not true | 20:05 |
| MohammadAG | well, i still need to use develsh | 20:05 |
| djszapi_ | su and devel-su are quite different | 20:05 |
| MohammadAG | su is broken | 20:05 |
| MohammadAG | thanks to ash | 20:06 |
| javispedro | damn, time passes way too fast. | 20:06 |
| MohammadAG | which reminds me, uni in 2 days :/ | 20:07 |
| djszapi_ | devel-su would be an unneccesary su duplication without aegis privs | 20:08 |
| MohammadAG | su doesn't work anyway | 20:08 |
| MohammadAG | need setuid | 20:08 |
| MohammadAG | needs* | 20:08 |
| djszapi_ | devel-su is not targetted to duplicate the su theory. | 20:09 |
| javispedro | you could technically implement a su without setuid using aegis | 20:09 |
| lardman | hmm, can't kill it even with devel-su | 20:10 |
| javispedro | you want develsh, not devel-su | 20:10 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: sure, very painfully :) | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: http://paste.debian.net/127370/ | 20:10 |
| djszapi_ | lardman: that is why I said above "nope" | 20:10 |
| *** elzalem has quit IRC | 20:10 | |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: use my impromptu signer to fix that | 20:10 |
| lardman | thanks javispedro | 20:11 |
| lardman | djszapi_: hard to know what the nope referred to | 20:11 |
| djszapi_ | lardman: I answered to you, so probably your last post compared to that | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: first of all it demonstrates that >>ssh -l root N950<< is not the same ID root as the one you get from devel-su | 20:11 |
| djszapi_ | lardman: anyway, develsh will probably not work on newer images either | 20:12 |
| javispedro | please stop confusing deve-su and develsh | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | I.E. has different capabilities from aegis | 20:12 |
| javispedro | hm | 20:12 |
| javispedro | wait | 20:12 |
| javispedro | it is me who is confusing | 20:12 |
| javispedro | devel-su = su + develsh | 20:12 |
| djszapi_ | su has nothing to do with devel-su | 20:12 |
| djszapi_ | no..... | 20:12 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: yes | 20:12 |
| djszapi_ | ok, then yes ;) | 20:13 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: please recheck as you're probably confusing them like what I was doing moments ago | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, develsh actually gives me yet another power than devel-su | 20:13 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: sure | 20:13 |
| javispedro | ? | 20:13 |
| djszapi_ | entirely sure | 20:13 |
| MohammadAG | 20:12 javispedro: devel-su = su + develsh | 20:13 |
| MohammadAG | sure? | 20:13 |
| djszapi_ | entirely not sure | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | no way | 20:14 |
| javispedro | o really? | 20:14 |
| djszapi_ | yes, CAP::kill is not available in develsh | 20:14 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: nope | 20:14 |
| djszapi_ | so that is not gonna be a long term memoir | 20:14 |
| hiemanshu | devel-su != su + develsh | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://paste.debian.net/127371/ | 20:15 |
| MohammadAG | develsh > devel-su | 20:15 |
| MohammadAG | you can't kill with devel-su alone | 20:15 |
| hiemanshu | well no | 20:15 |
| MohammadAG | you need develsh | 20:15 |
| hiemanshu | you need to devel-su then develsh | 20:15 |
| MohammadAG | if it's to kill a root app yes | 20:15 |
| javispedro | let's do this the proper way | 20:16 |
| MohammadAG | you just need develsh to killall meegotouchhome | 20:16 |
| npm | " This APT has Super Cow Powers. " ... doesn't exactly give one the warm fuzzies one's phone hasn't been hacked :-) | 20:16 |
| MohammadAG | apt-get moo | 20:16 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: for the time being, it might work, not in the future though, so I would not get used to it | 20:17 |
| hiemanshu | is dev.nokia.com down? | 20:17 |
| MohammadAG | get used to what? | 20:17 |
| javispedro | http://pastebin.com/cywhE1uq | 20:17 |
| javispedro | ssh user@ < devel-su < develsh | 20:17 |
| javispedro | actually | 20:17 |
| javispedro | ssh user@ < devel-su <<<<< develsh | 20:17 |
| MohammadAG | s/user/root/ | 20:17 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: that approach, actually develsh credentials were radically confined | 20:17 |
| hiemanshu | javispedro: and just plain develsh? | 20:18 |
| hiemanshu | javispedro: without devel-su | 20:18 |
| javispedro | ooh | 20:18 |
| javispedro | I didn't knew you could do that | 20:18 |
| hiemanshu | you can | 20:18 |
| javispedro | ssh user@ < devel-su < ssh root@ < devel-sh as user < devel-sh as root | 20:19 |
| javispedro | there, if you want I can make a QML app with nice arrows and transitions | 20:19 |
| MohammadAG | please do | 20:19 |
| hiemanshu | javispedro: that would be nice | 20:19 |
| MohammadAG | with a C++ backend | 20:20 |
| hiemanshu | and one with a JS backend too | 20:20 |
| javispedro | Aegispedia | 20:20 |
| hiemanshu | 'SSO website will be offline for a few hours today while we complete website enhancements.' :( | 20:20 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: what is the password for user ? | 20:20 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: invalid | 20:21 |
| javispedro | aka it has no password | 20:21 |
| hiemanshu | djszapi_: you can set is, devel-su, develsh, passwd user | 20:21 |
| hiemanshu | s/is/it/ | 20:21 |
| infobot | hiemanshu meant: djszapi_: you can set it, devel-su, develsh, passwd user | 20:21 |
| MohammadAG | userme? :p | 20:21 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: lol | 20:21 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: able to access RDA? | 20:21 |
| djszapi_ | hiemanshu: simple passwd user works. | 20:21 |
| MohammadAG | hiemanshu, i'm on the N950 | 20:21 |
| hiemanshu | djszapi_: iirc, I got a permission denied last time I tried | 20:22 |
| MohammadAG | bouncers rock :p | 20:22 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: ah, irc-chatter? :P | 20:22 |
| MohammadAG | hiemanshu, develsh after devel-su then passwd user | 20:22 |
| MohammadAG | yeah | 20:22 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: thats what I said | 20:23 |
| MohammadAG | does irc-chatter reply to a CTCP version? | 20:23 |
| hiemanshu | IIRC no | 20:23 |
| * hiemanshu checks | 20:23 | |
| djszapi_ | Where can I download this busybox-devel-su packge ? | 20:23 |
| djszapi_ | * package | 20:23 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: actually it does | 20:23 |
| djszapi_ | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/b/busybox/ | 20:23 |
| djszapi_ | it is not here. | 20:23 |
| hiemanshu | MohammadAG: Received unknown CTCP IRC by MohammadAG!~MohammadA@Maemo/community/contributor/MohammadAG with arguments: Chatter, the first MeeGo IRC client | 20:23 |
| MohammadAG | apt-get -d --reinstall busybox-devel-su | 20:24 |
| MohammadAG | it'll be in /var/cache/apt/archives | 20:24 |
| hiemanshu | it should reply CTCP VERSION IRC Chatter* | 20:24 |
| hiemanshu | that should be fixed | 20:24 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: it will hardly work if it is not in the repository. | 20:24 |
| MohammadAG | hiemanshu, cool | 20:24 |
| MohammadAG | djszapi_, it's there afaik, sec | 20:24 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: link ? Because what I pasted did not contain it. | 20:24 |
| hiemanshu | can anyone access sso or is down just for me? | 20:25 |
| MohammadAG | it works fine for me djszapi_ | 20:25 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: yes, because it is probably binary | 20:25 |
| djszapi_ | which does not help me without a link.. | 20:25 |
| javispedro | djszapi_: every devkit N950 has it installed | 20:26 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: I told couple of times, I do not use old software :) | 20:26 |
| * javispedro is rather worried about that "new" software | 20:26 | |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: could you please publish the package somewhere if you do not know the link ? | 20:26 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: we do not need devel-su since we have aegis-su | 20:26 |
| djszapi_ | which is much more powerful | 20:26 |
| djszapi_ | so there is no point to have devel-su for us by default... | 20:27 |
| MohammadAG | djszapi_, does the license allow me to? | 20:27 |
| javispedro | MohammadAG: busybox is GPL | 20:27 |
| javispedro | so it would be a license violation for Nokia | 20:27 |
| javispedro | (if anything) | 20:28 |
| djszapi_ | MohammadAG: yep, I could install it anyway by having the same sources.list | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# aegis<tab><tab> | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | aegis-constrain aegis-deb-util aegis-install-journal aegis-preinst-hook aegis-deb-add aegis-developer-mode aegis-loader aegis-session | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | aegis-deb-info aegis-exec aegis-origin aegis-unload aegis-deb-release aegis-fixup aegis-postinst-hook aegisfs | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# aegis | 20:28 |
| djszapi_ | but I do not mix it up with my setup | 20:28 |
| *** qgil has quit IRC | 20:28 | |
| MohammadAG | http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/Harmattan djszapi_ | 20:29 |
| djszapi_ | many thanks. | 20:29 |
| MohammadAG | yw :) | 20:29 |
| djszapi_ | I always missed the link getter option from dpkg | 20:29 |
| djszapi_ | we have such a one for "pacman". | 20:30 |
| djszapi_ | my qt package manager also has one ;) | 20:30 |
| javispedro | debian has dget | 20:30 |
| javispedro | but it's kind of a helper ontop of dpkg | 20:30 |
| *** cpscotti has quit IRC | 20:30 | |
| MohammadAG | djszapi_, does your new software have perl installed? | 20:32 |
| javispedro | they cannot really remove perl | 20:32 |
| javispedro | half of debian dies right there if you do it | 20:32 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: nope, your scenario does not work here | 20:32 |
| MohammadAG | perl, not perl-base javispedro | 20:32 |
| MohammadAG | dpkg-repack doesn't work on my N950 | 20:32 |
| djszapi_ | devel-su has way much fewer capability than root ssh + develsh | 20:33 |
| djszapi_ | capabilities* | 20:33 |
| djszapi_ | and actually even different type, sometimes. | 20:33 |
| MohammadAG | as illegal as it may be, i plan on pulling skype from the N9 on RDA | 20:34 |
| djszapi_ | that is completely illegal | 20:34 |
| MohammadAG | i know | 20:34 |
| djszapi_ | well, I have only perl-base | 20:35 |
| MohammadAG | distributing it is, copying it for personal use isn't ;) | 20:35 |
| djszapi_ | not true | 20:35 |
| djszapi_ | you need to get certificate for that from skype, that is what N also does. | 20:35 |
| MohammadAG | you need a certificate for skyhost | 20:35 |
| MohammadAG | not account-plugin-skype | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: could you tell me why /bin/develsh (-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3172 May 17 11:05 /bin/develsh) seems to be a ELF that just calls busybox, rather than a hardlink to the busybox binary? | 20:36 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, aegis caps thing | 20:36 |
| javispedro | heh | 20:36 |
| javispedro | look | 20:36 |
| javispedro | no setuid bit | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: would work on a hardlink as well, no? | 20:36 |
| javispedro | probably uses aegis to su | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: ^^^ | 20:37 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, isn't aegis tied to the kernel? | 20:37 |
| javispedro | as I mentioned | 20:37 |
| javispedro | <javispedro> you could technically implement a su without setuid using aegis | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | umm | 20:37 |
| MohammadAG | aka it doesn't matter what the path is | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | aegis-exec might make sense, yeah | 20:37 |
| *** djszapi_ has quit IRC | 20:37 | |
| javispedro | aegis loves hashes, remember. if you give it permission to su to the busybox binary you give su permission to all busybox applets | 20:37 |
| *** djszapi_ has joined #harmattan | 20:38 | |
| DocScrutinizer | errr | 20:38 |
| javispedro | thus, they made a different binary, and gave it su privilege. | 20:38 |
| * DocScrutinizer points at >>-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3172 May 17 11:05 /bin/develsh | 20:38 | |
| javispedro | ah sorry. | 20:39 |
| javispedro | I was confusing develsh with devel-su again | 20:39 |
| * javispedro 's brain elsewhere and should stop | 20:39 | |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: do you understand what devel-su is for ? | 20:39 |
| djszapi_ | maybe if it is clear you could distinguish them better :) | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd like to decompile develsh, but I think an strace shall do | 20:40 |
| javispedro | either way, my point was valid, the same happens to devel-su: | 20:40 |
| djszapi_ | why would you do that ? | 20:40 |
| javispedro | $ ls -l /bin/devel-su | 20:40 |
| javispedro | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 28248 May 18 18:06 /bin/devel-su | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | wooohoo 10 times the size | 20:40 |
| javispedro | cause devel-su is a copy of busybox | 20:40 |
| djszapi_ | yes, of course everything is like that in /bin/ | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | duh what? | 20:41 |
| javispedro | a copy that is probably trimmed to only do "su" | 20:41 |
| djszapi_ | nope. | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | busybox has 28k size???? | 20:41 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: I think it might help if you can get to know devel-su and what is it for ;) | 20:41 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: I do not have bash, but if you do "exec -a busybox devel-su" from it you'lls urely get a busybox help message | 20:42 |
| djszapi_ | :D | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | I gather devel-su is for HARM what sudo gainroot was for fremantle | 20:42 |
| djszapi_ | nope | 20:42 |
| djszapi_ | it is tied to aegis, it does not try to reinvent what aegis was designed against. | 20:42 |
| javispedro | imho, devel-su = a special build of BB that only does "su" that has a specific aegis token that allows it to su without having the setuid bit. | 20:43 |
| javispedro | develsh = a binary that execs() /bin/sh but has a bunch of aegis tokens granted (a large bunch) | 20:43 |
| djszapi_ | I must say, it is about correct | 20:44 |
| djszapi_ | :) | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway that'S what develsh does: http://paste.debian.net/127372/ | 20:44 |
| djszapi_ | of course, devel-su is more than just a setuid | 20:45 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: aka execve(/bin/sh) | 20:45 |
| djszapi_ | but that is one of the main purpoess. | 20:45 |
| djszapi_ | purposes* | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: that's what I thought as well, and you could do the same aegis magic to a hardlink to busybox binary aiui | 20:45 |
| javispedro | that's what not I'm sure about. | 20:46 |
| javispedro | aegis probably considers hardlinks the same file | 20:46 |
| djszapi_ | aegisfs does not handle hard links imo | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh | 20:46 |
| djszapi_ | properly* | 20:46 |
| djszapi_ | "properly". | 20:47 |
| *** harbaum has joined #harmattan | 20:47 | |
| DocScrutinizer | we're back to my query session of a few days ago, where I asked how a record in aegis' database is linked to a certain binary | 20:47 |
| djszapi_ | what do you mean by "record" ? | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | I assumed it was via the fully qualified pathname | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | + inode | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, a records that has all the credentials that develsh gets granted | 20:48 |
| djszapi_ | sorry, it might be my missing technical knowledge, but I do not understand the question. Could you please ellaborate on this ? | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | when I start develsh, *something* looks into aegis internal database (or kernel's image thereof, or whatever) and finds a set of data applicable to that binary | 20:49 |
| javispedro | wtf | 20:49 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: what is the question, I am still not getting it. | 20:50 |
| javispedro | this vibrator library is such a trade-secret it even requires me to submit a license key to it in the initialize function. | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | this set of data (i called it "record") says >>give develsh cap::chroot<< and whatnot else | 20:50 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: "something" is the kernel itself | 20:50 |
| djszapi_ | oh Doc, I told you that. | 20:50 |
| djszapi_ | what I said is about: the restok.conf is not parsed by the daemon | 20:51 |
| djszapi_ | by a daemon* | 20:51 |
| djszapi_ | validator init maps it into the kernel | 20:51 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: immersion is fairly properitary yes | 20:51 |
| djszapi_ | and when a new package gets installed, dpkg updates it. | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | what is the primary key in this database, I.E. what makes develsh develsh? will it be develsh still when it moves from /bin/ to /sbin/? | 20:51 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: nope | 20:51 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: fortunately, seems that "The device already has a valid license embedded which replaces the dummy value. You only need to remember to call the API with the dummy license using the SetDeviceProperty method." | 20:51 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: just look at how the aegis manifest works, you sets the rights for absolute paths | 20:52 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: it's kinda hard to explain | 20:52 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: between reboots the DB is indexed by path name | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: I didn't even mention "daemon" - what I said was >>*something* looks into aegis internal database (****or kernel's image thereof****, or whatever)<< | 20:52 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: once the system is up, it is indexed by device number + inode number | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | man, aegis is really the most mentioned word in here | 20:53 |
| javispedro | DocScrutinizer: the validator-init process during early userspace reads pathnames from a file and passes device#+inode# to kernel | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: that's what I always suspected and you said "no, it's not working this way" | 20:53 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: really ? | 20:53 |
| tomma | hmm... pkgmgr list installed is bugging... | 20:53 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: strange, because I explained these things yesterday or the day before yesterday | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, I even think I mentioned fully qualified pathname several times | 20:54 |
| javispedro | thus, it's not fully pathname indexed, but it's not fully inode indexed either :) | 20:54 |
| *** deimos has joined #harmattan | 20:54 | |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: I am not sure about this inode things, to be honest | 20:55 |
| djszapi_ | thing* | 20:55 |
| djszapi_ | but the path is full path, completely. | 20:55 |
| djszapi_ | as in absolute. | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: HAH, so it's linked to the inode+device uple in runtime, while in database it's pathname | 20:55 |
| javispedro | exactly | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | Tuple* | 20:55 |
| javispedro | therefore, if /a and /b point to inode 3 (assume busybox), both will be the same from Aegis PoV. | 20:55 |
| javispedro | despite the fact that you will have two records in the pathname db. | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | BWAH, sure | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | got it | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | muhahahaha really funny | 20:56 |
| javispedro | well | 20:56 |
| javispedro | inode-based vs path-based is a rather large discussion in the linux security modules community | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | hey, I think I can guess why | 20:57 |
| javispedro | iirc, selinux is inode-based while apparmor is path-based | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd have thought kernel runtime uses pathname PLUS inode | 20:58 |
| djszapi_ | let us clarify it tomorrow for sure... | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | prolly overkill | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: sure | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | thanks djszapi_ | 20:58 |
| javispedro | runtime actually uses: device number, inode number, file uid, file gid, perms, and hash. | 20:58 |
| *** vladest has joined #harmattan | 20:58 | |
| DocScrutinizer | dang | 20:59 |
| javispedro | (only dev# and inode# for indexing though) | 20:59 |
| javispedro | but if any of the above changes, binary is considered different. | 20:59 |
| javispedro | and thus any associated tokens won't be granted (and depending on enforcement, -EPERM, but you know that already :D ) | 20:59 |
| vladest | hi | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, and if it's a mandatory file, you earned a "Please Reflash!" MALF :-D ? | 21:00 |
| djszapi_ | javispedro: the interesting part is not the token :D | 21:00 |
| djszapi_ | but what DocScrutinizer said. | 21:00 |
| djszapi_ | but unfortunately, I do not know this bit till tomorrow.. | 21:00 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: not that simple, but saying very simply: yes | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | newsflash, bbl | 21:01 |
| djszapi_ | iirc smack is also "inode based", but at any rate, let us clarify it from authorized source tomorrow :) | 21:02 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer javispedro: do you think it means any security hole ? | 21:03 |
| javispedro | no.. | 21:03 |
| djszapi_ | because I do not see that way either. | 21:03 |
| djszapi_ | so I did not get the "muhahahaha really funny" bit. | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | don't think it's a security hole | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | alas :-D | 21:04 |
| javispedro | in fact i remember the classical common criticism for apparmor was that | 21:04 |
| javispedro | ln /etc/shadow /home/user/myfile was all you needed to be able to read the passwords ;) | 21:05 |
| javispedro | cause, being path-based, /home/user/myfile was a different file ;) | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | the funny bit was about the detail that hardlinks don't work here, and why | 21:05 |
| djszapi_ | but this is one difference between smack and aegis. | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | could get you rather confused if you don't know about the internals and think "duh, I don't need /bin/develsh size 3297, I can do this with a hardlink" and then find you nuked your system | 21:06 |
| djszapi_ | all in all, they will be abstracted out by libcreds2 though. | 21:06 |
| djszapi_ | or libcreds3, even. | 21:06 |
| *** rm_you| has quit IRC | 21:07 | |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: does fuse support hard links ? | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | frankly dunno | 21:08 |
| djszapi_ | mmh, it seems it does | 21:08 |
| djszapi_ | it might be that we had just issues with those in aegisfs and fixed by now | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | I was already temped to claim inode based is probably faster, but that's really not exactly a criterion here | 21:10 |
| djszapi_ | hahaha aegisfs codebase seems to be very secury | 21:11 |
| djszapi_ | it is not on gitorious | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | for sure inode based is simpler to evaluate for security holes. Pathnames are really complicated with lots of dark corners | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | see bindmounts, other stuff | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | hardlinks | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatnot else | 21:12 |
| djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: so when will you ship the USB host mode ? ;) | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | but then otoh it's harder to debug, as you basically can't get the pathname for an inode | 21:14 |
| *** javispedro has quit IRC | 21:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: as this is no security hole, I still have the problem of missing privileges in developer mode, and missing possibility to add kernel modules for stock kernel. So probably hostmode is not feasible | 21:15 |
| djszapi_ | well, you had to make an own kernel for N900 as well, anyways | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, but that kernel didn't deprive users unstalling it from a good chunk of the more important apps. On harmattan it's still unclear if we can run own kernels at all, and it's even more unclear and highly doubtful if a normal harmattan system incl all apps like dialer, maps, drive, could run on such a new kernel | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/unstall/install/ | 21:18 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer meant: sure, but that kernel didn't deprive users installing it from a good chunk of the more important apps. On harmattan it's still unclear if we can run own kernels at all, and it's even more unclear and highly doubtful if a normal harmattan system incl all a... | 21:18 |
| djszapi_ | why not, you just doom a certain functionality in aegis validator in my understanding | 21:18 |
| djszapi_ | you do not kill out the runtime policy framework (you do not actually even touch that) | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think aegi't hack it that way | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | dang | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think aegis is too good for that, you can't hack it that way | 21:20 |
| djszapi_ | I do not think that is not possible, it is just like to open up the possibilities about loading a module into the kernel or extend it | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | if maps depends on Nokia Account, and Nokia account depends on working aegis, then I think we will not see maps running on a custom kernel | 21:20 |
| djszapi_ | so in theory, I do not see any issue why you could not modify aegis according to that only requirement | 21:21 |
| djszapi_ | why not ? | 21:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | if aegis is as cleanly designed as I guess it is, it simply will cease to work if you "hack" anything of aegis | 21:21 |
| djszapi_ | :D | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's a chain of trust, and editing any arbitrary bit causes "open mode" | 21:22 |
| djszapi_ | come on you modify the aegis design according to your design :D | 21:22 |
| djszapi_ | it is not a saint design that cannot be modified. | 21:22 |
| djszapi_ | thing is that nobody tried it out yet (what I said). | 21:23 |
| djszapi_ | that could be the first step and then let us see whether it is enough or not | 21:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | loading a kernel that's not properly hashed and signed causes TPM in OMAP to lock, and from then on you need to powercycle to ever again access the root cert | 21:23 |
| djszapi_ | but you can surely extend validator whitelist with your own kernel moudle. | 21:23 |
| djszapi_ | module* | 21:23 |
| *** vladest has quit IRC | 21:23 | |
| *** vladest has joined #harmattan | 21:24 | |
| djszapi_ | or just drop the kernel signing... | 21:24 |
| *** sudanix has joined #harmattan | 21:25 | |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi_: I know a friggin lot about TC basics, and how they work together to forbid those things you suggested. I'm both confident the aegis devels were smart enough to follow this well known concept, and also I'm not willing to play the pen-tester for aegis | 21:25 |
| *** djszapi__ has joined #harmattan | 21:26 | |
| *** djszapi_ has quit IRC | 21:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm willing to start hostmode development as soon as I get instructions how to install and run a modified kernel and a semi-working HARM system on top of it. | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not developing the methods to get such a custom kernel and system running | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | as that's not what I offered to do | 21:27 |
| djszapi__ | ok | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | also I need a system where a random binary like i2cscan runs without aegis bitching at me about missing permissions to access I2C-bus etc | 21:28 |
| djszapi__ | what is wrong precisely about packaging that ? | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | this is a reqirement strictly for development, not related to later user package | 21:29 |
| *** sudanix_ has joined #harmattan | 21:29 | |
| djszapi__ | yes, but does it require rapidly changing credentials during the development phrase ? | 21:30 |
| *** sudanix has quit IRC | 21:31 | |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi__: well, maybe packaging even might work, just it's too steep a startup hurdle to build each silly tool like e.g. bash or i2c-tools myself, I'm loosing interest when I can't access a certain pool of tools I expect to see on each decent development platform | 21:31 |
| djszapi__ | well, you can always run relaxed stuff | 21:31 |
| djszapi__ | but these trivial tools are surely not hard or too much time to package. | 21:32 |
| djszapi__ | someone can even do for you, I guess. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | doesn't work, that's what I said. Maybe I was wrong as I didn't know enough about how aegis works exactly | 21:32 |
| djszapi__ | yep, it should work | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | I found out femantle packages install just fine usually, and installed i2c-tools, and of course it worked but wasn't allowed to access i2c-bus | 21:33 |
| djszapi__ | just run it in develsh with relaxed stuff | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'll give it a second try eventually | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | (well, a 5th or 9th, to be precise :-D ) | 21:34 |
| djszapi__ | :p | 21:35 |
| djszapi__ | btw, you did not hear this relaxed stuff from me, right ? ;) | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | see, I'm always afraid I get another "please reflash!" and there's NO way to backup all the stuff already installed and configured | 21:35 |
| djszapi__ | yep, that is scary and the forever disadvantage of any old image of any sort. | 21:36 |
| djszapi__ | so Intel might drop MeeGo, really ? | 21:38 |
| Clint | and switch to WebOS? | 21:39 |
| djszapi__ | no, they have been playing Android iirc for a while. Trying to port it to some intel architecture. | 21:39 |
| djszapi__ | maybe since last december or so. | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, *NOKIA* could easily "fix" this by simply deploying a signed package with a /etc/init/check_malf.conf that does NOT freeze boot when this notorious evil requester pops up | 21:39 |
| djszapi__ | DocScrutinizer: that is not that simple | 21:40 |
| djszapi__ | if libbb5 damages, no way your system is worthwhile using. | 21:40 |
| djszapi__ | just a random example. | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | still I'm more afraid of an accidental "echo WTF >/var/malf" rather than any fsckup of libbb5 | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | gently make love to aegis(TM) | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I could just "rm /var/malf" rather than reflash, if boot wouldn't block on /etc/init/check_malf.conf and this evil requester screen | 21:42 |
| djszapi__ | Stskeeps: malf management has nothing to do with aegis | 21:42 |
| djszapi__ | what they do after a syserror, that is a different team | 21:43 |
| djszapi__ | called system-software/services | 21:43 |
| djszapi__ | again, just a lack of misunderstanding :) | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | just it's been aegis that triggered my last syserror :-P | 21:44 |
| djszapi__ | anything can seriously... | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah even I can, see "echo WTF >/var/malf" | 21:44 |
| djszapi__ | and aegis is not responsible for something that other team turns into unusable state. | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's been aegis-exec after all that triggered that supposed bug that nuked my device | 21:45 |
| djszapi__ | that bug is highly unreproducible | 21:45 |
| djszapi__ | on the later images. | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | so AMLF handling is rogue, but aegis triggering syserror on random events | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | MALF* | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | nope, aegis is not triggering ;) | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | I got no later image | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | that was a plain implementation bug | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | it is not architecture design, so it is not really something serious | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | mainly if it is fixed | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | and actually I am not sure that was an aegis bug | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | that is just one thing it happened by using aegis | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | I got what I got, hw- and image-wise | 21:46 |
| djszapi__ | it is really not a strong prove as such | 21:47 |
| djszapi__ | "echo WTF >/var/malf" -> I can remove /var/malf :) | 21:47 |
| djszapi__ | after touching it ;) | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | bottom line, I'm not excited to try and investigate something on a system where I have to do 2 days of preparations for a test that takes me 30min on fremantle | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, but boot the system without removing it :-P | 21:49 |
| djszapi__ | cannot you use minicom to remove it ? | 21:49 |
| djszapi__ | you do not basically get a prompt at all ? | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | when it doesn't boot? | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, it does NOT boot | 21:49 |
| djszapi__ | so it is not a Ui issue | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | (except into act_dead) | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi__: >> less /etc/init/check_malf.conf << | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | easy to understand | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | rm /etc/init/check_malf.conf and tell me I can do this too, and I'm happy | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't dare to even try to edit this file | 21:51 |
| djszapi__ | DocScrutinizer: that file is mentioning the RD certificate for you ? | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, dunno, maybe | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | moment please | 21:52 |
| djszapi__ | no, nobody can remove from /etc/init/ | 21:52 |
| djszapi__ | as I said from the beginning, that is integrity protected :) | 21:52 |
| djszapi__ | no way, you can remove it | 21:52 |
| djszapi__ | except from the dedicated interface subfolders. | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | /usr/sbin/show_malf `cat /var/malf` probably could check if there's an R&D cert, and show a "DISMISS&BOOT" button if it's a R&D device | 21:53 |
| djszapi__ | right, it seems my version is different | 21:54 |
| djszapi__ | anyway, let me try this malf thingy with my n950 | 21:54 |
| djszapi__ | not the loaned one, but the newest version one :) | 21:54 |
| djszapi__ | or well, even better with the newest N9 tomorrow. | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's also some /usr/sbin/enter_malf | 21:56 |
| djszapi__ | I guess you cannot mount it up from your laptop in malf state | 21:56 |
| djszapi__ | and remove that file ? | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | I didn't dare to enter_malf --help :-D | 21:56 |
| djszapi__ | I have just done ;) | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | djszapi__: for sure not | 21:56 |
| djszapi__ | well, it is a bug if enter_malf -h/--help explodes, don't you think ? :) | 21:57 |
| djszapi__ | Iwould say a very serious one | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, but it's also a bug when aegis-exec -a CAP::SUID bash enters MALF :-D | 21:57 |
| djszapi__ | yep, but it is worth to catch them right now and fix it, then never fix it. | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | so you *got* that bug? | 21:58 |
| djszapi__ | fix/fixing | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | what was the result of enter_malf --help?? | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | did it actually explode for you? | 21:59 |
| djszapi__ | /usr/sbin/enter_malf --help | 21:59 |
| djszapi__ | /usr/sbin/enter_malf: what do you mean | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, I feel venturous | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | (though I should make sure no hammers etc in vicinity ;-P ) | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL, what do you mean? | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | could be worse, it could show that notorious requester after instant reboot, with "What Do You Mean? \n Please Try To Reflash!" | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | XP | 22:02 |
| djszapi__ | DocScrutinizer: well, echo WTF >/var/malf put me into malf state, but I could reboot | 22:02 |
| djszapi__ | but I guess it is still not nice | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | thought as much, your device probably recovers | 22:02 |
| djszapi__ | the Ui is funky after the reboot though :) | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | please elaborate on "but I could reboot" - did it need two reboots where first boot showed the MALF requester? | 22:04 |
| djszapi__ | nop, just one, but this is not the point. | 22:04 |
| djszapi__ | I am a bit afraid, if anybody can just trigger it this easily. | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm seems your device does some nasty recovery action? | 22:05 |
| djszapi__ | no clue :) | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup, THIS *IS* a security issue | 22:05 |
| djszapi__ | indeed, will test it with later images. | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | veritable DoS attack | 22:06 |
| djszapi__ | of course without R&D cert | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | I already suggested I build an app out of it ;-P | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | the Nuke-me app | 22:07 |
| djszapi__ | what you should really not forget, it is still the best phone OS out there ever. Have you ever tried meego previously, not just de, ce and others ? :) | 22:08 |
| djszapi__ | at least from Nokia. | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | description: "locks your device on the click of an icon, so NOBODY can ever sniff your sekrit private data" | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | (continued:) "give the app a teasing name, like MyChildPorn, and be sure any cop will click on it first" | 22:09 |
| djszapi__ | right as I guessed, enter_malf is also coming along from the sys-soft guys | 22:10 |
| djszapi__ | probably that should be the interface | 22:10 |
| djszapi__ | but not writing any malf file manually. | 22:11 |
| djszapi__ | I would actually even expect that you should have some extra credential to run that binary. | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, I'm not sure normal user can create files in /var | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | nevertheless... | 22:11 |
| djszapi__ | so not that like, we defend the phone against the superroot and so forth, and it can brick the device easily. | 22:11 |
| djszapi__ | does not matter, user/root/whatnot | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly. That's been the moment when I said "NUFF!" | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | it feels like i'm the stupid devel that gets punished by "Please reflash" for doing sth silly | 22:13 |
| djszapi__ | yep, this is really weird | 22:14 |
| djszapi__ | but it has nothing to do with aegis as such | 22:14 |
| djszapi__ | it is the misuse of aegis from the sys-soft guys | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | and that's been the mood where I packed and stowed away that device | 22:14 |
| djszapi__ | or the not-use :D | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, the fact that I can't fix it now, despite I'd know how to fix it, that's: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | and that IS aegis | 22:16 |
| djszapi__ | if you can fix it, you can do anything | 22:17 |
| djszapi__ | so no point in security anymore, if you can do anything | 22:17 |
| djszapi__ | so it is rather controversial thesis of yours :) | 22:17 |
| *** harbaum has quit IRC | 22:18 | |
| djszapi__ | and ofc no sec is no go from usr pov. | 22:18 |
| *** djszapi__ has left #harmattan | 22:18 | |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, we don't need to iterate this philosophical debate again. I'm not a friend of security by Nokia's courtesy and grace | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm willing to care about security myself | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | and buy me a way to fix things like these myself this way | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | might be related to my age, you know ;-) | 22:21 |
| jkt | so, I've tried using the Nokia's one click flasher on my N950, and now it appears that the device won't boot anymore | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | I already learnt to care for myself | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | jkt: reflash ;-) | 22:22 |
| jkt | when I press the power button, the status LED shines, I hear the vibration and the LCD lights up and shows the Nokia logo | 22:23 |
| *** sivang has joined #harmattan | 22:24 | |
| DocScrutinizer | jkt: and maybe make sure your battery is fully charged prior to that (sorry no, I have no idea how to do that. Except maybe... wasn't there a flasher --option --charge-battery or sth?) | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh, so odds are you could actually charge battery then? great! | 22:24 |
| *** djszapi__ has joined #harmattan | 22:24 | |
| *** jkt_ has joined #harmattan | 22:24 | |
| jkt_ | and it looks like my IRC box died, too. | 22:25 |
| jkt | DocScrutinizer: I've just flashed that device; shall I really do it again? | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | first check if it looks like charging when you plug the powered-off device to wallcharger | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | (assuming you have a Nokia wallcharger) | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | if the indicator LED starts flashing slowly, I'd let it sit for several hours, then reflash | 22:27 |
| jkt | DocScrutinizer: the flasher tells me that it's at 97% | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | the flasher tells that? :-o DUH | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | then it should be OK to reflash | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | just notice that flashing actually takes almost an hour - allegedly. (didn't stand by and stopped the time, anyway it was loooong) | 22:29 |
| sivang | jkt: how did you come to having to reflash the device? :) | 22:29 |
| sivang | and it is easier like with Maemo? | 22:29 |
| sivang | :) | 22:29 |
| jkt | sivang: well. I hit http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=234, and there was an advice that one shall reflash | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, more like a suspicion that a reflash might help | 22:30 |
| sivang | jkt: so this is where you report Harmattan bugs! nice! | 22:31 |
| sivang | jkt: thanks for your help I was looking for that. | 22:31 |
| jkt | I've tried to "reset to factory settings", but it didn't help, so I tried to "clear the device". At that point, it stopped responding, completely. | 22:32 |
| sivang | jkt: I had this problem, but a couple of reboots and one OVI update fixed that btw. | 22:32 |
| sivang | jkt: how is it not a prototype device btw? | 22:32 |
| sivang | jkt: even though you got it from Ronan | 22:32 |
| sivang | jkt: I have "developer edition, not for sale" on the back | 22:33 |
| sivang | anyway be back later gotta workrave | 22:33 |
| sivang | ... | 22:33 |
| jkt | sivang: sorry? | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | sivang: http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page#Reporting_bugs_and_ways_to_get_support | 22:33 |
| *** smoku has joined #harmattan | 22:52 | |
| *** mzanetti_work has quit IRC | 23:04 | |
| *** javispedro has joined #harmattan | 23:25 | |
| lardman | ah, that was remarkably frustrating | 23:26 |
| lardman | annoyingly it seems that the QFileInfo for a photo changes at some point after it's written to disk | 23:27 |
| lardman | I wonder if the geolocation stuff opens it and writes in some exif data | 23:27 |
| lardman | in any case it was messing up my folder watching for photoanalyser | 23:27 |
| lardman | macro mode isn't much cop on the N950 I notice | 23:31 |
| jkt | so, let's hope someone on the forums has an advice -- http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=30074#post30074 | 23:40 |
| *** wazd has quit IRC | 23:44 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
