IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2011-08-23

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thpok, so how can i have a left-aligned back button + two right aligned other buttons in a QML ToolBar? (qt quick components)00:03
ajalkanethp: right-most item to parent.right, and the second right-most to that button's anchors.left ?00:05
thpajalkane: hmm i don't anchor anything at all there. can/should i anchor ToolIcon elements to ToolBarLayouts?00:06
ajalkanethp: you can anchor, it did so in some example too which I copied from00:06
thpwhat I have now is ToolBarLayout { ToolIcon {} Item {} ToolIcon {} ToolIcon {} }00:07
thpwhich seems to work great if only one of the last two items is visible00:07
thpok, i'll try to anchor it :)00:07
ajalkaneI've got like this to anchor the menu to right:        ToolIcon {00:07
ajalkane            iconId: "toolbar-view-menu";00:07
ajalkane            anchors.right: parent===undefined ? undefined : parent.right00:07
ajalkane            onClicked: (myMenu.status == DialogStatus.Closed) ? : myMenu.close()00:07
ajalkane        }00:07
ajalkaneAnd it's straight from the qt-components example, so I guess it's "canonical" if not beatiful :P00:08
thpindeed. anchoring works beautifully :)00:08
mikhasthis looks horrible00:09
thpanchors.right: toolPlay.visible?toolPlay.left:toolPlay.right00:09
mikhasand why the ungodly triple=00:09
thp(with toolPlay being my rightmost tool button)00:09
ajalkaneThe triply thing is something about not enforcing types. I don't quite understand it, but QtCreator gives a warning without it00:09
thpajalkane: well, do you reparent that ToolIcon?00:10
thpbecause if not, that's not really needed00:10
ajalkanethp: no, it sits inside ToolBarLayout00:10
thpwell then you don't need it00:10
thpbecause that will always have a parent00:10
thp(the ToolBarLayout)00:10
ajalkanethp: QtCreator says "== pefromrs type coercion, use === to avoid it" warning00:11
thpajalkane: hehe.. that's true00:13
ajalkaneah right now I understood, parent === undefined is unneeded altogether. I wonder why it's there00:13
thpalterego: but "anchors.right: parent.right" is sufficient00:13
alteregoYes, usually :P00:13
alteregoThough I'm guessing that's meant for someone else :)00:13
thpthat's why i asked if you reparent it00:13
ajalkaneyeah... I just copy-pasted it. But you're right. I don't understand why it's there. Maybe someone else also copy-pasted it from something more complex :)00:14
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DocScrutinizer(SIP chat) I've seen SIP chat posts getting translated to SMS and reverse, and also seen each single line creating another INVITE which made it rather easy to create a whole block with ringing phones, hell even half a small town of all phones ringing :-)00:15
DocScrutinizerthe provider fixed that bug *rapidly* ;-P00:16
DocScrutinizerbeen btw00:16
DocScrutinizerone of their gateways been severely misconfigured00:17
ajalkaneI'm surprised SIPs still around and supported. I guess it's used still in some corporate environments (?).00:17
Arkenoiajalkane: huh? any better alternative?00:18
DocScrutinizeractually we are halfway to swapping all ISDN/POTS phones for SIP aka NGN phones here in Germany00:18
ajalkaneI mean, I've never seen any end-users using it00:19
ajalkaneForgive my ignorance, but doesn't it basically do what Skype and XMPP etc. does?00:19
DocScrutinizerend-users just aren't aware they are using SIP00:19
ajalkaneI know it's been around in the telco business, but as a direct end-user product. Is it necessary?00:20
DocScrutinizerthey just plug in that combined DSL&phone box of 1&1 or Arcor or whatever is the name of your favourite provider00:21
DocScrutinizeras mentioned above I gues ~50% of German phone lines are SIP and users aren't even aware of the fact00:22
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DocScrutinizerbasically SIP is the ISDN of internet age00:23
ajalkaneThat's what I mean, it's a behind-the-scenes protocol. I mean is there any realistic use-case for having a SIP account on phones that you can configure?00:23
ajalkaneIt's been on Nokia phones forever, but I can't use it with anyone practically00:24
Arkenoii use SIP all the time00:24
DocScrutinizersure, e.g. if you think SIP can and will do more than that stupid box with the plain old phone plugged in to it00:24
Arkenoibecause i prefer to pay fair termination fee, not some nonsense "long distance"00:24
Arkenoialso i want to receive call wherever i am without nonsense "roaming" fees00:25
ajalkaneThe stupid phone box is long dead at least here in Finland.00:26
ajalkaneI understand those use cases, but aren't those exactly what Skype and similar provide?00:26
DocScrutinizeruhuh, so what are you using then? configurable SIP phones?00:26
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Arkenoiand what is the point of using skype, ugly, proprietary and generally sucking while there is good kosher SIP?00:27
ajalkaneJust mobile phones. I think for Voip Skype is the most used, SIP... I've not seen anyone use it here00:27
rm_codeArkenoi: to talk to the millions of people who have skype...00:27
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ajalkaneI agree I'd rather use SIP than Skype. But it just doesn't seem to be happening00:27
Arkenoii do not care about millions too stupid to configure sip :-)00:27
rm_codeArkenoi: like my mother... or all of my non-geek friends, or my girlfriend....00:28
SputSIP sucks in a lot of NATted networks where Skype just works, apparently00:28
rm_code^^ also true00:28
DocScrutinizeruhuh, doesn't seem to be happening? why not?00:29
ArkenoiSput: not really. solved long time ago.00:29
rm_codeskype has some MAGIC going on with NAT, it can connect when i can't even get to web pages sometimes00:29
Sputmight be less of an issue nowadays, with smart routers having autoconfig for that, but that's the main reason skype got big - it worked out of the box, where most other solutions didn't00:29
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer: I don't know. Maybe it's too hard to configure for them, they don't know what the hell SIP is, or there's not easy enough ready-made-service.00:29
Arkenoii use sip even with public wifi hotspots and experience no problems00:29
thpwazd: btw, any progress on the replacements for my crappy self-made artwork in gpodder? :)00:30
DocScrutinizerI use SIP even over UMTS and have no problems00:30
rm_codeand i would love to use SIP, but it doesn't help me talk to the huge infrastructure of people i already talk to with skype and who aren't technically savvy enough to get SIP working00:30
rm_codenot to mention, you call Skype ugly, but have you seen the average windows SIP client? >_>00:30
rzrdo u know of sip2xmpp gateways ?00:31
ajalkaneI configured SIP to my gf's phone so that I could call her free. And she configured it away. Lol.00:31
rm_codei think you're making the wrong argument -- is SIP better than skype? probably. but is that enough of a reason to say we don't need skype working? hell no00:31
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DocScrutinizerwhat do you think is this service running on:
DocScrutinizerrm_code: I give a shit about those i*****00:33
ajalkaneI'm happy Germany has apparently good mainstream usage of SIP. But that's not the case at least here in Finland. It's mobile phones or Skype.00:33
DocScrutinizerI don't WANT skype working, as it cuts thru my battery in no time00:33
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rm_codeDocScrutinizer, thanks for telling me you don't give a shit about the "idiots" that are my family and the people i love. go fuck yourself.00:34
ajalkaneAnd what I've observed, Skype is used only from computers to make those annoying video calls. I hate enough using my voice, having video on top of that would be far too sociable!00:34
rm_codeand maybe think about what you're saying before you make absolute statements00:35
rm_codethe bottom line is, SOME PEOPLE NEED SKYPE, so it would be nice to have it working alongside SIP.00:35
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SpeedEvilSame as with flash.00:36
DocScrutinizerrm_code: sorry you got me wrong, I can call *every* phone in Germany for *free* with that 1&1 account. and I don't care if the far end is SIP or what else00:36
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rm_codeit is not like that in the US00:36
rm_codeand 95% of the people i know have Skype set up and working00:37
rm_codeand i know only ONE PERSON with SIP working00:37
rm_codebut i don't know how to contact him via SIP because we normally use skype00:37
DocScrutinizerand if some smart guy knows how to configure his SIP client on his smartphone so his landline number is working on that smartphone SIP as well, fine, I call her for free too00:37
* DocScrutinizer shrugs00:38
DocScrutinizerUS also has CDMA I heard00:38
DocScrutinizerdoesn't mean CDMA is better than GSM or UMTS00:38
berndhsyeah CDMA works greeat00:38
SputI'm in Germany, and most people I know use skype00:38
ajalkaneAlmost no one uses landline phones anymore in Finland. We're all at the clutches of the evil operators here. I don't think they have much interest in providing SIP support :P00:38
Sputhardly any SIP users, except for a few geeks00:38
Sputthat is *not* the target audience for phones00:38
DocScrutinizerI know *very* few people that have a skype PHONE00:39
Sputalso, note that to my knowledge, only O2 allows SIP via GSM anyway00:39
DocScrutinizerand the people *I* know are not sitting in front of their PC all day and all night, hell some of them even SHUT IT DOWN :-o00:39
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SputDocScrutinizer: that can't be00:40
Sputcomputers cannot be shut down00:40
Sputthat is physically impossible, for all I know00:40
berndhsthe world's gonna end if we shut down all the computers00:41
ajalkaneAh... how cool would it be to shutdown the world's last computer, knowing you're gonna trigger the end of the world doing it00:42
ajalkaneIt could be some old crusty VAX in some basement... I bet I couldn't even figure out how to shut down one of those beasts.00:43
DocScrutinizerand for a sequel to the "i****" part: look at or whatever first level domain you prefer. The download of their SIP softphone client, ready with preconfigured setup, is at least as simple as that for skype00:43
berndhscleaning personnel had no trouble shutting down Vaxen00:44
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Sputthat does *not* change the fact that there is a huge ass installed userbase of skype, and you can't just ignore them for the same reason that facebook will still be around for a long time despite g+, and ICQ still is there even though Jabber is better00:44
DocScrutinizerjust sign-up is a bit more tedious, as you get a free landline number and they want some of your person's data for that. Unlike skype where you can start with random BS nicknames as "phonenumber"00:45
DocScrutinizerI actually can and I actually do. Both friggin skype and brainfsckd rogue facebook00:45
DocScrutinizeryu want to force me to use them?00:46
DocScrutinizergood luck!00:46
Sputyou can use whatever you want00:46
rm_codegood developers realize that you can't ignore a huge userbase. you don't have to use it yourself, but if you want large-scale acceptance/adoption of a platform, you have to make the tools the AVERAGE PERSON wants00:46
ajalkanehmm... what if Jesus said you must use one of those services to get into heaven?00:46
Sputbut ignoring that the better part of the population uses worse stuff, usually made by "the market leader", is not smart either00:47
DocScrutinizermhm and the average person wants to use skype from their smartphone, to annoy those who can't and have to sit in front of their computer - I see00:48
* DocScrutinizer waves00:48
rm_codeyou can be an elitist techno-geek all you want :/00:48
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rm_codeAndroid has a skype client00:48
rm_codeiOS has a skype client00:48
ajalkaneN9 has a skype client!00:49
Sputthe same argumentation as for why do people still use windows00:49
Sputor other legacy software00:49
ajalkanemy grandma has a skype client :(. Even my poor grandma! But I don't. Shit...00:49
Sputall we can do is educate them, and while trying to do that, trying to support as much of the legacy crap as possible00:49
rm_codeeven winmo7 is about to have a skype client00:50
Sputskype on the windows desktop sucks btw since MS bought it00:50
javispedrooh, you CAN ignore the large existing skype userbase00:50
javispedroit's quite easy.00:50
Sputit has started crashing00:50
Sputand it plays video ads now.00:50
rm_codeSput: yeah i still run the old version00:50
ajalkaneGood old MS. They sure know how to make life a little bit more annoying.00:50
javispedroI managed to ignore the quite large MSN userbase when MS managed to get into the #1 IM provider slot due to their monopolish practices.00:51
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javispedroso skype should even be easier!00:51
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ajalkaneI used to have MSN account. But then came the good Jabber clients.00:52
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I don't know a single skype user I couldn't call via _phone_ for free :-D Using my SIP account (admittedly that'S because I only know skype users that are also here in Germany - if my Granny wouldn't be dead but living in Honolulu I might actually consider using skype, for her sake)00:53
Sputand I'd hate you for calling me on my *phone*00:53
Sputbecause I hate using a phone for calls00:53
Sputcomputer is so much more convenient!00:54
MohammadAG<ajalkane> N9 has a skype client!00:54
MohammadAGN950 has a skype client, telepathy-spirit is installed00:54
MohammadAGBUT, UI is missing, and skyhost expired00:54
DocScrutinizeror I'd get her a German SIP account and plug the Grandstream SIP phone with proper configuration into her DSL router00:54
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MohammadAGif anyone has any idea how to mount an N9(50) rootfs.jffs2, you too can have a skype client00:55
ajalkaneMohammadAG: well yes, actually you could say N9(XX)? has/will have Skype client00:55
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ajalkaneI'm not sure how much it's worth to spend time on having Skype/gTalk on N950 as the new firmware should come in few weeks now.00:56
DocScrutinizerSput: yeah, I also always use the hairdryer for roasting my toast00:56
ajalkaneI don't like phone calls. It makes me talk, and listen to talking. Why can't they just send e-mail, text message, or IM? Much more convenient.00:57
Sputajalkane: I agree00:57
artemmdepends on the priority00:57
SputI have my headset on anyways while sitting at the computer00:57
artemmphonecalls resolve issues faster00:58
artemmbut stop the progress on all the unrelated issues00:58
Sputnot if people like me ignore them most of the time :P00:58
ajalkaneOkay I understand if there's a goddamn catastrophe lurking, like a meteor is about to strike, or my baby's about to drown in a radioactive waste. But otherwise? Just send me a message.00:58
rm_codecan SIP do large conference calls? and can it do video? I *think* it can, but i don't remember right now where i saw the guides for it00:59
DocScrutinizeryou're aware you're in a channel that has a smartPHONE as topic?00:59
DocScrutinizerrm_code: video yes, even N90000:59
rm_codeyeah well at the moment my n950 is admittedly barely a phone, if i make calls i can't hang up or interface with the dialer at all for automated services00:59
ajalkaneI have a SMART(phone) so that I don't need the phone so much, but do things smart.00:59
DocScrutinizerconference - depends. needs support from your provider00:59
artemmoh, Harmattan can do phone calls as well! That's a cool extra feature!00:59
DocScrutinizeror special clients01:00
MohammadAGI never truly appreciated BT headsets till I started driving alone01:00
SputDocScrutinizer: my cell phone bill hovers around 3€/month, and I don't have a cheap or flat-fee contract01:00
SputI use a few GB of internet though.01:00
specialI'm amused that I started this with an offhand comment 2 hours ago.. and it's still going01:00
rm_codei'm amused (not surprised) at how many absolute minded people there are here who think there is only one way to do things01:01
DocScrutinizerajalkane: [[ SMART(phone) ]] seems harmattan and N9 isn't the device and OS for you01:01
Sputrm_code: obviously, no perl coders :>01:01
rm_code"this service is better, so everyone should use this, because it is the RIGHT WAY to do things, everyone else be damned"01:01
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer: Dunno, liking N950 so far, I'd imagine N9 will be just great too01:02
rm_codei got used to doing things I thought were dumb a *long time ago*, because not every user does things "the right way" and you can't expect them to... and if you treat them like idiots they will abandon your software01:02
DocScrutinizerajalkane: for the SMART part it seems to emphasize the phone part way too much01:02
Sputif I did a lot of calling, the N950 certainly would be the wrong device for me... it's just too heavy to keep it on-ear for extended amounts of time :>01:02
rm_codego ahead and say "i don't want them using my software anyway". i dare you.01:02
rm_codeI hope the next firmware fixes calling n N950, currently fairly useless as a phone because i have to reboot it after every phonecall to hang up01:03
Sputoh? that works fine for me01:04
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer: I don't understand what you mean, either I'm too drunk or too tired. But anyway, the traditional phone usage of my mobile phones has decreased a lot compared to the traditional phone usage (as in talking). And that's a good thing.01:04
SputI would love if it used the notification light to, well, notify about missed calls though01:04
artemmreally? Public N950 FW makes calls very fine for me01:04
rm_codeyou're lucky then01:04
specialI've only had to reboot to end a call once01:04
rm_codetheres a lot of people for whom the "active call window" is just a black screen -- and if you close it, it doesn't hang up the call01:04
DocScrutinizerajalkane: I'm just talking for the talking it seems - ignore me for the next 1h ;-D01:05
DocScrutinizerajalkane: probably I just noticed I don't know what I mean either :-)01:05
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer: Well, my reply was really non-sensical also, so let's call it even.01:06
DocScrutinizerafk again01:07
Sputfor me the task manager crashes a lot, but calls seem to work fine01:07
Sputbut as I said, I'm not calling that much :)01:07
MohammadAGtask manager crashes?01:07
DocScrutinizerhave a look into SIP, it's way better than a lot of people seem to think01:07
Sputyeah. it just goes black and doesn't display tasks anymore01:07
* MohammadAG ponders doing a quick daemon to use the notification light for missed calls01:07
ajalkaneI've never had task manager crashes01:07
MohammadAGthe 3 event views suspend when you swipe out of them01:08
SputMohammadAG: that would rock...01:08
MohammadAGby suspend I mean they don't redraw, and stay black01:08
SputI can swipe around as much as I want, I can't reactivate the task manager after that happened01:08
MohammadAGI'm just saying what's prolly causing it for you :p01:09
MohammadAGjavispedro, /etc/mce/mce-radio-states.ini01:10
ajalkaneSometimes it's happened to me, though, that I can't open the apps from task-manager. It goes into some kind of stucked state.01:10
ajalkaneBut it recovers when I start an app from the application list.01:11
javispedroMohammadAG: afaik, that's a file that lists the available hw01:11
javispedroMohammadAG: one -dadd package overwrites it with the version you are seeing01:11
MohammadAGFMTX = false?01:11
javispedrothe n950 has no fmtx01:11
MohammadAGit has a wl127101:11
MohammadAGwhich has an FMTX afaik01:11
javispedroyes, same as n9,01:11
javispedrobut no antenna; the n9 might.01:11
MohammadAGf the antenna, get the base hardware to work then plug an antenna01:12
MohammadAGwe can put an antenna in place of the microSD slo.... waaiit...01:12
javispedrothe board file for the rm680 basically says that the fmtx is fscked01:12
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javispedrothe one for the rm696 on the other side does not01:13
javispedroyes, I could remove the fmtx is fsck parted either by rebuildign the kernel or by using a unseal.ko-like trick, but I bet it won't work01:13
javispedros/fmtx is fsck parted/"fmtx is fsck" part01:14
MohammadAGwouldn't hurt to try :p01:14
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javispedrofmrx goes before that!01:14
MohammadAGoh and illegal fmtxs are kinda good01:14
MohammadAGI wonder if I could turn up power on that01:14
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javispedroget me a datasheet to search for the power specs =)01:14
javispedrothe weird part is BluetoothRadioState=false01:17
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DocScrutinizerisn't it a real big advantage that everything is OSS on maemo?02:16
DocScrutinizernad everything comes with a comprehensive manpage02:16
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javispedrothat's why we should all switch to Meego!02:18
* javispedro hides02:18
DocScrutinizereverything is so damn well documented that the schematics and datasheets they published for us are almost redundant02:18
DocScrutinizerwe wouldn't really need them02:19
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MohammadAGoh yay, lost my first guitar string05:56
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wazdhi all11:31
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djszapiNot sure who, but someone was asking a question related to requesting credentials for an install script. I told that he can request it to <for path="/var/lib/dpkg/info/mypackage.postinst" />, but I realized that it is a better way to do by using the context attribute for the installation/removal phrase.11:32
xarcassdjszapi: that was me, probably. but i've solved this problem long ago. and there's better way, it's in the documentation: <request context="INSTALL">11:34
xarcassdjszapi: oops, haven't read your whole sentence..11:36
djszapixarcass: yep, actually more people asked it. Do you understand why it is better way ?11:36
djszapior shall I document it more in the next SDK ?11:36
xarcassbtw, i haven't found a way to remove files without gaining root ownership first11:37
djszapixarcass: remove file in what context ? Do you have a scenario, please ?11:37
xarcassdjszapi: it would be helpful if there was full list of capabilities that can be requested on the same page. or a link11:38
djszapiWe did already few weeks ago.11:38
xarcassdjszapi: i use doc pages from SDK, they are not updated very frequently11:38
djszapibut there are 3 different matters, here. Could you please answer the first two first ?11:39
djszapixarcass: SDK is updated when there is a new release, not sync'd up daily.11:39
djszapisince till that, it is a moving target.11:39
xarcassdjszapi: scenario: i have directory which is created by app. there are directories and files in it, which are created also by an app. i wanted to remove this whole directory upon uninstall. i wasn't be able to do this because of permissions.11:40
djszapixarcass: right, as for me, I required dac_override, but I know you cannot do that. Will study it and come back to you.11:41
djszapixarcass: is the context clear for you why that is better ?11:41
kimjuI'd still like to see a platform documentation with list of all tokens in use in the system as released, what resources those are protecting and if there is limitations in use of those (ie. can a package not coming from official repository ask for those tokens).11:43
xarcassdjszapi: how i've solved this: i requested cap_chown in manifest, then i chown'ed all this directory contents, then i rm'ed this contents. so, now i have all files removed, but there's only empty directory in the home. I suppose, this is acceptable, but not exactly 'clear'. Not perfect, i'd say.11:43
djszapikimju: that has nothing to do with aegis, that is OVI question. I cannot answer anything about their documentation. We can maximum reference to them11:44
djszapixarcass: yes, that is rather hackish ;)11:44
kimjudjszapi, that is a harmattan platform question, not ovi store or anything.11:44
djszapikimju: you are wrong, that is OVI question11:44
kimjudefine ovi?11:45
djszapiie. can a package not coming from  official repository ask for those tokens -> this has nothing to do with aegis.11:45
djszapithe first part, I already answered, see above11:45
djszapi11:38 < djszapi> We did already few weeks ago.11:46
djszapiWe would not really like to confuse people with different stores and their consequences. We can only say that: use OVI. OVI needs to document it the further things since the origin thing happens there anyway.11:47
djszapistores -> sources.11:47
kimjuSorry, I don't understand what you are saying.11:48
djszapikimju: well, security provides a platform, right ?11:49
djszapiOVI uses the and decides the original policies and so forth, so it is up to really them how they use our platform, we cannot say what our users do.11:49
* Arkenoi took a look at ovi store. almost impossible to find anything useful by browsing because it is full of useless bookmarks disguised as apps11:52
kimjudjszapi, so are you saying that I can't install .debs from anywhere else than ovi store?11:52
lardmancan I instantiate a QML component which is contained in a string?11:53
djszapikimju: no, I do not say11:54
djszapixarcass: the solution seems to be very simple for your case: just request UID::user credential for the install context11:55
djszapikimju: but that is obviously the lowest origin source in the OVI store "hiearchy", so it will be documented there.11:56
djszapiwith all the other levels, it is up to them. That is the target way Nokia tries to achieve anyway.11:56
kimjudjszapi, ok, so let me rephrase the question: If I package for example bash in obs (or scratchbox) and download the resulting deb into the device. can I install it? what if I ask for CAP::sys_module in manifest, can I still install it and get the capability token granted?11:57
djszapikimju: as said, read the OVI documentation.11:58
djszapiwe will publish a reference to that for sure from the security guide.11:58
elpurilardman: sure11:59
djszapikimju: Nokia does not care about c-obs, it cares about OVI store, that is11:59
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lardmanelpuri: I need to change a "widget" at runtime, and am not sure whether to supply a QDeclarativeWidget or some QML code from the C++ side; either way I'm not sure how to plumb it in11:59
lardmanlcuk: morning12:00
kimjuand I don't care about ovi store, I care what the software platform in the device allows me to do.12:00
xarcassdjszapi: i was afraid that UID::user in request might break something. I've tried CAP::fowner - without success, surprisingly12:00
djszapikimju: and, no you cannot obviosuly grant sys_module, that is against the whole architecture design from the page zero12:00
lcukmorning lardman \o12:01
lcukhey simon, there is an event happening at manchester university about content creation and usability/ux :)12:01
* lcuk is getting ticket12:01
djszapixarcass: it does not break anything, that is the idea and design. Feel free to contact me if something breaks.12:04
elpurilardman: is this what you were looking for?
djszapikimju: *sigh*12:04
xarcassdjszapi: thanks, i'll try12:04
djszapikimju: that is what Nokia pushes, period. Not sure why we still discuss it, if you do not accept what Nokia pushes, do not use it :D12:04
lardmanelpuri: looks promising, thanks :)12:04
djszapikimju: we will obviously not mix up the documentation in 1000 places as a separate snippets, just because of c-obs that is really no goal of nokia.12:04
djszapiactually, it is quite against the Nokia wishes.12:04
elpurilardman: look at the qml<->c++ models too12:04
elpuriusually models are the best choice12:04
kimjudjszapi, ok, what other tokens I can't request then? documents how to request them, but what I've been asking what the device allows you to request. I don't see how that is related to ovi, it's part of the software platform in the device.12:04
lardmanelpuri: models as in database models?12:04
djszapikimju: ok, I told it to you more times, I stop it.12:04
dm8tbrdjszapi: are you referring to documentation currently available only under NDA?12:04
lardmanlcuk: I'm sat twiddling thumbs waiting for a baby still, only a week and a bit overdue now12:04
lcuklardman, :D fun12:05
djszapidm8tbr: yes, the documentation of the new release (which is a moving target) is obviously not out.12:05
lcuktracy was induced in the end12:05
lcukwell waters broke12:05
lardmanHolly is booked in, but there's time yet....12:05
dm8tbrdjszapi: please keep in mind that this channel has mostly people that did not sign an NDA with nokia and thus all discussion should be kept in mind that this is the baseline level.12:06
lcukdo we need to sign NDA to talk about pregnancy now?12:06
hiemanshulcuk: yes sir12:07
Ronksulcuk: not after the first three months :)12:07
hiemanshulcuk: its called the Pre-Delivery NDA, or the PDNDA :P12:07
djszapidm8tbr: not sure what the outcome is of your sentence. Should I explain more what I say because it is hard to understand for people here because it is too depth, or ?12:07
* lcuk facepalms12:07
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o dm8tbr12:08
*** dm8tbr changes topic to "A cozy little place for pure harmattan device and development discussions | No discussion that requires NDA please! | Developers check this: | | MeeGo N9(|50) CE on its way, MOSLO still missing, discuss in #meego-arm please | logs:"12:08
hiemanshudjszapi: its just that most people dont have access to stuff you have, and so writing someone off is not a good idea12:08
djszapihiemanshu: what do you mean by writing someone off ?12:08
lardmanthat can be easily solved by uploading the relevant NDA'd docs of course ;)12:08
hiemanshudjszapi: <djszapi> kimju: ok, I told it to you more times, I stop it.12:09
djszapihiemanshu: what is wrong about that sentence ?12:09
hiemanshudjszapi: sounds very very rude12:09
djszapiI think that is the consequence of not accepting the platform and design. I cannot really say more than I said. Why should I continue ?12:09
dm8tbrdjszapi: to make this more clear for you: if you say something here. please make sure that you only asume that people have information that is not under NDA.12:10
djszapiit seems he did not accept the nokia decisions ? I cannot comment more on that.12:10
dm8tbrdjszapi: if you need clarification of how to separate such information please contact the relevant Nokia people to arrange a briefing.12:10
hiemanshudjszapi: well this isn't the only thing, you did the same to me yesterday as well12:10
Stskeepsif anyone is obviously breaching an NDA, be sure to report to corporate security12:10
kimjuI haven't said that I'm not accepting the platform or Nokia decisions. I'm just trying to understand what that platform allows me to do or not.12:11
djszapidm8tbr: I am not sure why you are telling it to me, I firmly believe I know better what I can say and not. I am the only one actually warned others about it when they told more (for instance the guy with new image flashing question here)12:11
* Stskeeps returns to his perl build12:11
* lardman is interested in a Perl build12:12
djszapikimju: but I told you so many times. It seems you do not accept it since you are still against that decision.12:12
kimjuI still think it's a valid question to ask what tokens can be requested by a package not coming from the official repositories.12:12
lardmanthough now I think about it, the app in question uses a GTK+ ui, which is not ideal12:12
* dm8tbr would be interested in bluetooth python bindings12:12
djszapikimju: and I already answered that how you can do that, numerous times.12:12
* Stskeeps would like a pony12:12
dm8tbrStskeeps: for me one steak sandwich please!12:12
Stskeepsdm8tbr: damn you, now i have to go out for a steak sandwich12:13
djszapihiemanshu: I provided a feedback to make your software better, you started telling me, it is installed even if it was not.12:13
dm8tbrbut actually I should start consuming the sushi I made myself for lunch :D12:13
djszapihiemanshu: Not sure what I did wrong.12:13
lardmanonly £25?12:13
lardmanor did you mean a real one?12:13
djszapihiemanshu: I am really happy if a feedback comes into the picture in KDE projects I am involved in.12:13
* lardman stops with the slang and goes back to QML "goodness"12:13
hiemanshudjszapi: like I said, it works for everyone with an N950, and we cannot do anything until we have newer software12:14
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djszapihiemanshu: that is fine, but I did not like that when you wanted to know better what I had installed and what not :)12:14
hiemanshudjszapi: if you file a buy, I will try to solve it :P12:15
djszapibuy lol :D12:15
lardmanDoes the email app work for anyone else? I seem to be unable to send mail, though I can receive it. Anyone know if there's any logging anywhere as the "Error occurred" message isn't overly enlightening?12:16
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maxwI see that too, fwiw12:16
lardmanok, glad it's not just me12:17
maxwI've not tried to solve the problem though.12:17
djszapihiemanshu: actually, you started me asking about this, and I even told you, sorry no because it is NDA :)12:17
maxwI had it in mind to remove and add the account again, to see if it made any difference.12:17
djszapiand, no I do not think I should report someone (for instance the last Qt guys while trying to ask NDA things here) for the first time. I do think we are mature enough to warn people in private.12:18
lardmanI've done lots of fiddling with account settings to no avail, I've also tried starting fenix from the command line, but it detached from the term and I've not checked whether it was a shell script or there's some options yet12:18
hiemanshudjszapi: like I said if you say you have a problem, I would want to know what it is, you went on to tell me I shouldn't write software using guess work and such12:19
lardmanThe other interesting problem I sometimes see if that the clock has missing digits; usually the 10s of the minutes12:19
djszapihiemanshu: I do not know what problem it is in fact since I do not have time to deal with the software, sorry. I am happy to help with any security issues though. :)12:20
xarcasslardman: i've seen the same thing. but only on the 'lock screen'12:23
hiemanshudjszapi: so whats the use of pointing out an error when you dont want a solution :P12:23
hiemanshudjszapi: which is what pissed me off yesterday12:23
djszapihiemanshu: to know whether it is a trivial issue and can be fixed easily or not.12:23
lardmanxarcass: when I see it on the lock screen and unlock it also appears on the "system tray" clock12:23
hiemanshudjszapi: its a trivial issue, it could be fixed easily if you could tell me just give me the output of the command I asked for, and you said that was under NDA12:24
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djszapihiemanshu: trivial fix as in easy to fix without having a device.12:26
djszapi12:23 < hiemanshu> djszapi: so whats the use of pointing out an error when you dont want a solution :P12:27
djszapi12:23 < hiemanshu> djszapi: which is what pissed me off yesterday12:27
SpeedEvilThe app runs just fine on a n950 with the publically available image.12:27
djszapiit is not really, I do really want a solution and that is why I mentioned  to you. However NDA has higher priority than a leisure time irc client ;-)12:27
hiemanshudjszapi: NOTFIXING, WORKSFORME, EOF12:27
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sebashiemanshu: you can't really expect djszapi to break his contractual obligations I think12:33
hiemanshusebas: I am not expecting him to do that, a simple doesn't work for me, and I cannot help you without a issue because I have an NDA to follow would have been good enough12:33
sebasI understood djszapi as such12:34
sebasmaybe you should assume positive12:35
w00t_sebas: you might have missed the part of the conversation yesterday when he was telling hiemanshu to not write software by guesswork, etc :)12:35
sebasyep, I missed that part12:36
djszapiw00t_: What I meant with that, it possibly expect a hard coded option. Sorry for not being clear and it could be misunderstood12:36
djszapibut the problem seems to be that it expects a "guess" which is not working on this device.12:36
djszapiguess as in hard coded (either dependency missing, or hard coded path somewhere).12:37
hiemanshudjszapi: like I said, it worked perfectly for everyone who tested it on a N950, and I cannot *guess* what the N9 has and doesn't12:40
djszapiyep, exactly that is why it is important to mention every dependencies, not using hard coded paths, set the proper paths (either in the build system or somewhere else).12:41
sebasmaybe file a bug about this, then at least someone powerful enough can look at it and decide wether or not to give out this information, or fix it?12:41
hiemanshudjszapi: it is mentioned, and there is no hard coded paths12:42
hiemanshuwe have 'import com.meego.extras' which doesn't work for you12:42
hiemanshuits not a hard coded path, and its a part of the qt-components package, atleast on the N95012:42
Sputhmm. is there a way to execute a binary on the device using Madde, without having to package it as a .deb? I tried using the mad remote send which put the binary in developer's home directory, but I don't seem to be able to execute that neither using mad remote run nor directly on the shell12:42
dm8tbrhiemanshu: to briefly touch on your previous statement: actually most NDAs I've seen are worded that you are not even supposed to mention that you are bound by it. So a simple 'I'm sorry but I can't answer that' or simply not engaging in conversation that might bring up such a question are good strategies.12:42
SputI guess I have to add permissions somehow, but I have no idea how :)12:43
Sput"the device" being the N95012:43
djszapihiemanshu: yep, but it does not hurt to ask whether it is general issue about hard coding and can be fixed without device, I guess.12:43
hiemanshudjszapi: I said no, and you said 'dont write software using guess work'12:44
djszapireading back the log, it seems you realized it later, it is not hard coded.12:44
djszapiand you told it after I said whether there is any guess work.12:45
hiemanshuI know it is not hard coded, its a part of the qt-components package12:45
djszapiyep, but I did not know who never dealt with that package ;-)12:45
radiofreeis it com.meego.extras?12:47
hiemanshuwe used com.meego.extras yes12:48
hiemanshu<djszapi> hiemanshu: you should really not make a software with guess-works, seriously. <-- from the logs12:49
djszapiI still stick by, there is a guess work there, and I am sorry if it cannot be covered what exactly because of the NDA.12:50
ajalkane_N950com.meego.extras is wrong maybe, git has in examples12:50
djszapithat guess work ^12:50
radiofreeyes, for me qt-components is
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hiemanshuajalkane_N950: like I said the one we have on N950 works for us12:52
ajalkane_N950I know, I'm using it. But seems N9 has newer version with different import12:53
hiemanshuajalkane_N950: yeah, and my psychic power has gone for a toss to guess that12:54
ajalkane_N950I use extras too, I think the nokia one12:54
ajalkane_N950hiemanshu, I'm just guessing, not commenting on the argument between you and djszapi.12:55
hiemanshuajalkane_N950: no guess-work is welcome here12:56
* hiemanshu runs12:56
* hiemanshu ---> $dayjob12:56
ajalkane_N950I like guessing.12:57
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: don't you think your way to put things is rather antagonizing? It's commonly perceived as rude and not exactly helpful. Please try to reconsider the way you participate in this channel. I suggest you also have a short glance at just in case there might be some generic ideas about concepts I personally love to reread every once in a while12:58
ajalkane_N950Like, I once guessed lottery numbers. Exciting12:58
* xarcass uses com.meego.extras all the time and it works on two N950 with different fw versions12:59
djszapiDocScrutinizer: mmm, I have never said such things that I heard here about aegis (mainly when it is just a lack of understanding, it does not make a good atmosphere, to say "fuck", "shit" aegis and others as so many people do from the beginning).13:01
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: and (if I didn't get this part wrong in speedreading backscroll) your claim you can't utter simple "com.meego.extras is wrong maybe, git has in examples" as you're under an NDA is mere ridiculous13:01
djszapiDocScrutinizer: I had no idea about this issue. I have been asked by providing outputs from the device.13:02
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: imagine the situation from my point of view. I am trying to help the community to get into the aegis usage better, and I just read from hours to hours, "fuck aegis(TM)". What do you think I feel after 20-30 situations like that ?13:03
DocScrutinizerI don't want to go into doing actual statistics, but my perception of this channel is it's a lot of bitching about how we _say_ things most of the time, rather than a cooperative solving of problems13:04
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: Yep, I think I answered all the aegis questions heretofore. I do not see any unresolved issue.13:05
djszapiThat is why it is a bit frustrating to me to read "fuck aegis(TM)" from the day first, when I try to help about it.13:05
* hiemanshu sets a timer, PM djszapi every 30 seconds with 'Aegis - It just *doesn't* work (TM)'13:07
DocScrutinizersorry about that, but that's the often rude harsh tone in FOSS community, and esp on IRC. Better just ignore it, or get a receive-regex substituting each "fuck aegis" to "I'm frustrated as I don't get this aegis thing right"13:07
xarcassdjszapi: btw, requesting UID::user don't work - permission denied. so i'll stick to CAP::chown & chown & rm solution for now13:07
djszapiSee ?13:07
hiemanshudjszapi: I being funny :P13:07
hiemanshuI am*13:07
fluxmaybe the community feels like they are being force-fed something they would rather have the option of opting out.13:07
djszapiDocScrutinizer: sure, it can be avoided 1-2 times, but not after reading it continously 20-30 times :(13:08
hiemanshudjszapi: thats your problem for having a very low threshold13:08
djszapiflux: but that is not the case, so we need to solve the problem, not thinking of that which is not the current situation.13:08
hiemanshuits 30 people now, if there were say 5k devs in here, it would be 300 times13:08
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: then I'm sorry to say I don't see any other way for you to keep your mental sanity than just leave this channel alone. A pity but probably the only way, as you won't change the wording here13:09
hiemanshuif you have a problem with 1, you speak to the chanops, if you have a problem with a million, you just leave :)13:09
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: nobody likes aegis, and there will always be devels that express this feeling in a XXX way13:10
mikhasI like AEGIS.13:12
djszapiMmm, leaving or a very strong vest, true.13:12
DocScrutinizerwe can tighten general rules about proper speech in IRC, to make everybody use "f*** aegis" instead of using XXX words. In the end it won't change anything, though I'd be willing to go into this tedious duty to enforce worksafe speech in this chan13:12
mikhasWithout it, you folks here wouldnt have anything to talk about.13:12
hiemanshumikhas: do you want to talk about your issues?13:12
hiemanshumikhas: I would offer a free health checkup13:12
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: thing is that you cannot avoid the security nowadays, and that is really a good gesture. We implemented a very similar (almost the same from the third party developer pov) on meego, so you will not like it either.13:14
DocScrutinizermikhas: the problem as generally percieved is there's way too much talking about aegis, and be assured we had just enough to talk about when aegis would just vanish13:14
djszapiHowever I agree with you, I should put on a very strong vest or leave. That is really the two options.13:14
radiofreedjszapi: you've done the same to meego?!13:16
djszapixarcass: if the directory is owned by the user, it works. I tested it here.13:16
djszapiradiofree: from third party developer pov, it is almost the same, yes.13:17
Arkenoimikhas, you love aegis so much that you want to f**k it!13:17
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mikhasArkenoi, I'd put a ring on it.13:17
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: (thing is that you cannot avoid the security nowadays...) that's your POV, others may feel completely different about it. You won't convince them the way you defend aegis here, as that decision had to get discussed on a way more abstract level of platform concepts and product targets13:17
Stskeepsyes, my statement about fuck aegis is that i want to erm, make sweet love to it13:17
razvanpetruI like aegis!!13:17
xarcassdjszapi: yes it is user:users and it doesn't work. on two devices with different versions of fw. it's right in /home/user directory13:17
radiofreefrom a user point of view, aegis makes sense13:17
razvanpetruin fact it needs more permissions...13:18
Arkenoiradiofree, how?13:18
radiofreei wish i could completely disable it on my device though, from a developer point of view13:18
w00t_Stskeeps: i don't think "penetrate it with a 30ft post" is the same as "make sweet love to it"13:18
Stskeepsw00t_: to me it does!13:18
w00t_though i guess in so..13:18
w00t_ok, beat me to it13:18
djszapixarcass: the only guess is the old image then since it works here.13:18
* w00t_ facepalms gently13:18
mikhasThe one thing to realize and accept: AEGIS won't go away for MeeGo Harmattan, it'll stay.13:18
radiofreeArkenoi: it does a decent job of preventing applications from doing what they are not supposed to do13:18
mikhasNo amount of water running down the Niagara falls, or similarly, the amount of talk here, will change that.13:19
Arkenoicould be useful if platform was just a bit more widespread. as it is not, it is just pure annoyance13:19
Arkenoialso, there is no decent user controlled capability management process to make it useful13:19
radiofreeits a pure annoyance to a developer13:19
DocScrutinizermikhas: I tend to agree on that one13:20
mikhasSo is manual memory management.13:20
mikhasOr debugging without debug symbols or sources.13:20
mikhasIf you get easily annoyed as a dev, it's time to change careers.13:20
mikhasIt won't get better!13:20
DocScrutinizermikhas: we almost all don't have a career  on HARM/meego. And I for one am fine with my options to choose which platform to use for development. It's not an aegis-infested platform13:22
mikhasYes, please exert that freedom of choice.13:22
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DocScrutinizerI already did and stopped all work on harmattan development13:22
djszapiWhat I have never understood is that, here is the platform. People got free devices. If they do not like how the platform was designed, they are not obligated to use it. Summary: if you work in a project, why not cooperating nicely after accepting the platform principles instead of continously developing for a platform where you do not accept the principal architecture design ?13:23
DocScrutinizererr I guess this explicitly does not apply to me?13:24
Sicelo0_o really DocScrutinizer ?13:24
DocScrutinizerSicelo: yes. I *hate* the platform concept with regard to aegis/security, and I'm not excited about N9 either. So what would me make invest my time into it13:25
DocScrutinizerI just keep this aegis-coffin they sent to me as I hope there's some better platform without aegis available soon, which deserves my attention13:26
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mikhasDocScrutinizer, in case you got a N950: I suspect ending all H work means you'll hand it over to another developer?13:26
Sicelolol, coffin. yay!13:26
djszapiI have mentioned previously Harmattan and MeeGo. From what I can say, Android tries to replicate aegis design principles nowadays, they also go into that direction. It is just heavily needed to provide security for the mobile phone users nowadays. It is not the Windows security way, I know. Nothing comes freely, you need to work a bit with it, but after a good documentation, it should not be hard.13:26
SpeedEvilA device you're expected to develop on without pay is not free.13:26
fluxdjszapi, I think people are annoyed that developers don't have a loophole for the security system. in other words, they must work at a further level from the core system than the manufacturer.13:27
fluxthe security system per se seems quite interesting to me13:27
hiemanshudjszapi: have you ever written SELinux policies?13:28
DocScrutinizerflux: indeed13:28
hiemanshuthe thumb rule says 'Test your app without SELinux, see if it works on the platform just fine, then enable SELinux and add the security stuff needed'13:28
hiemanshuand aegis doesn't let you do that13:29
djszapihiemanshu: I am really sorry, but I would not like to discuss SELinux right now because that would be a very deep and long conversation during the work hours. All the feedback can be founded on the linux kernel mailing list I pasted few weeks ago more times. I agree about that what is written over there by Linus Towards and other security experts, if you are interested in our opinion.13:29
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: which is the SOP I suggested from beginning and thought was what "developer mode" is all about13:29
SputI'd just like to be able to deploy and run a binary for testing purposes, without having to build a full package first :/13:30
hiemanshusee ^13:30
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: exactly my point about aegis13:30
hiemanshuits not the security platform that I am sick of, its the implementation13:30
Sputespecially since building a package takes much longer than remaking the binary13:30
hiemanshuusers dont blame implementations, they blame platforms13:31
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: the problem is "you security experts" (I honestly doubt Linus would attribute himself as such) seem to be pretty ignorant about "us developers"13:31
hiemanshudjszapi: and I have been studying security since I was 15, so I know my stuff13:31
hiemanshudev mode != production mode, which is why dev mode has a lot of rules relaxed for you13:32
DocScrutinizerand now I'm out again,  as - stated correctly before - NOTHING will change for aegis neither on N950 nor on N9 or HARM in general13:32
SpeedEvildjszapi: Can aegis be used for user security? Is it possible to for example require (in principle) a passphrase from the user before decrypting the aegisfs?13:33
djszapiaegis and smack are used for user security.13:34
SpeedEvilAre there docs on this side of the implementation - I haven't found any.13:35
djszapialso the coming android security which replicates aegis more and more.13:35
DocScrutinizerand djszapi won't talk aegis beautiful for the majority of devels that are just annoyed by it, esp by the fact they have to cope with it even in developer mode on a DEVELOPER DEVICE (as is printed in all capitals on back of N950)13:36
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: I am seriously not getting what you are talking about...It is like saying to git, solve my merge conflict automatically since it is an issue for me.13:37
djszapisimple cases can be "autogenerated" (ie.: aegis-manifest-dev), but custom cases obviously cannot.13:37
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djszapito be quiet honest: I ported Gluon with all its games to Harmattan without any security issue. It is a complete game development and distribution platform, and I had zero security issue.13:38
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: if the above sentence was maybe too screwed to not get lost in translation, here's a second try: You ( djszapi ) like aegis, some of us don't. And there's nothing that will change this discrepancy13:39
djszapiif there is a custom case (ie.: like merging conflicts in case git, which cannot be automated by a tool), it obviously needs custom developer configuration.13:39
DocScrutinizerand I'm out now for good (again)13:40
djszapi"You ( djszapi ) like aegis, some of us don't. And there's nothing that will change this discrepancy" -> I do not like meego as a project, but I do not say every day like I got for aegis.13:40
djszapiso it is a very sad conclusion.13:40
Sputdjszapi: so far I fail to simply execute a binary on the device using Madde, which is supposed to be the official deployment env. is it possible to change that somehow?13:41
djszapiSput: I can help later today, I need to get back to work. :)13:42
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hiemanshuSput: wait let me find you a link13:42
Sputthanks, but I don't think that's the issue... I can't use Qt Creator because the project is cmake-based, I tried using mad remote run though, but I get permission denied13:45
Sput(+x is set on the binary, so it's probably some security policy)13:45
hiemanshuSput: devel-su; develsh; /usr/sbin/aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec <binary>13:46
hiemanshuand you can still use Qt Creator even with cmake13:46
Sputah ok, will try that later when I'm in front of the SDK again13:46
Sputhiemanshu: yes I can, but Creator misses all the device and deployment options13:46
Sput(which is somewhat stupid, as that stuff shouldn't be buildsys specific)13:47
Sputso I use Creator for editing the project, but I have to resort to mad in order to deploy and run on the device13:47
hiemanshuah yeah, makes sense13:47
SputI really really hope they add the deployment and on-device debugging stuff for cmake-based projects at some point :/13:49
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ArkenoiI *am* security experts with about 20 years of field experience, and i say: aegis sucks!13:57
Arkenoiexpert, even13:57
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dm8tbrit's sure a pain in the neck14:02
dm8tbrit sucks enough to make people want to remove it. so in the end hopefully things will be good14:03
Arkenoiit is yet unknown if we really lose any functionality in the open mode. apparently not.14:04
Arkenoi(any vital functionality)14:04
Arkenoii do not care about DRM-protected video and other useless stuff14:05
dm8tbrthere is no drm afaict :)14:05
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jykaeis there fixed version of landscape enabler for n950 around somewhere?14:07
Arkenoias for capabilities based security is it exactly as good as capabilities management system you have. selinux is slightly better than nothing. the one we have at symbian is way worse than nothing. at the moment aegis behaves worse than selinux but better than symbian (at least we can control it), but is unpredictable, changes from version to version and all that NDA stuff is pure nonsense, so now it is worse than nothing as well14:09
Arkenoialso think "qui prodest"14:11
Arkenoiselinux was made for users14:12
Arkenoisymbian capabilities system was made for symbian foundation14:12
Arkenoiaegis was made for "IP owners" and network operators14:12
Arkenoianything that was not made for users is worse than nothing for users14:13
Arkenoijykae: all existing ones basically patch the same config files14:13
Arkenoiso if it is that ugly, it still is14:14
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dm8tbrArkenoi: I agree I guess14:15
* DocScrutinizer too14:17
ajalkane_But Aegis can be disabled by installing custom kernel if I've understood correctly?14:21
Arkenoiat the moment we do not have fully functional replacement kernel, right?14:23
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ajalkane_I haven't heard about one, but I expect it won't take long once the devices come on sale14:25
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SpeedEvilAegis can be disabled - however it seems likely that maps and drive stop working.14:30
SpeedEvilWhich is unfortunate, as those are two quite nice apps.14:30
SpeedEvilI'm basing this on the fact that there seems to be some aegis oddness going on with my device that means it can't login to nokia accounts.14:31
SpeedEvilMaps sort-of-works in this state, as it has a bug.14:31
ArkenoiSpeedEvil, does it interact with nokia any different way than other nokia devices?14:31
DocScrutinizerreasonable assumption, as maps and drive need a nokia account14:31
SpeedEvilArkenoi: It requires a nokia account to run drive and maps.14:32
SpeedEvilIf you don't have one, it simply does not work.14:32
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SpeedEvil(well, maps works, as it has a bug where if you switch back to the maps witndow, and tap it randomly a few doxen times, it unlocks)14:32
ArkenoiSpeedEvil, well, i have my login and password, why cannot it work without aegis?14:33
SpeedEvilAnother interesting question is if you have a working nokia account on the phone, have the maps downloaded to the phone (you can do this), then does if you need to reboot the phone, it stay logged in>14:33
SpeedEvilBecause if it doesn't, and if you're in an area without net service, you're screwed.14:33
rzrtalking about nokia account ?14:34
rzrmine used to work , but not last time i tried14:34
SpeedEvilUnless maps only requires the account on frst startup, which is not implausible.14:34
rzri can check again hold on14:34
SpeedEvilSo the possibilities I guess are that a kernel with aegis disabled means maps never works. Or it could mean that maps only works if you start it at least once with the aegis kernel.14:35
rzrsemms my nok account is working again14:36
SpeedEvilOr aegis could download some sort of security credential which in normal operation it would store meaning it does not need to access the net ever agai, but with aegis-kernelspace out of the picture it won't do that.14:36
ajalkane_umm, sounds annoying. Losing maps would suck.14:37
SpeedEvilOr aegis being involved with the maps and accounts could be a bug to be resolved in the release images.14:37
SpeedEvilI guess only one way to find out.14:37
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rzrevening Kaadlajk14:57
Khertan'lu rzr14:57
* rzr is trying to dl some maps14:58
rzrusing the CLI way14:58
Khertangnié ? maps from maps ? why not downloading them using the gui ?14:58
Khertanworks well :)14:58
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razvanpetruMouseAreas work even if they're obscured by a Sheet?15:20
xarcassrazvanpetru: yes. they don't react only if they're obscured by another MouseAreas15:22
razvanpetruthat's rather unfortunate... :)15:24
razvanpetruany workaround?15:24
Khertanopacity:0 ?15:25
Khertanforgot ... a MouseArea didn't have opacity15:25
w00t_razvanpetru: put a MouseArea on your sheet obscuring the other MouseArea15:26
elpuriit does15:26
razvanpetrubut then... my sheet buttons can't be clicked I guess?15:26
Khertanhuhu :)15:26
elpuriMouseArea i mean15:26
w00t_*on* the sheet15:26
razvanpetruKhertan: enabled should also work15:26
elpuriit inherits Item15:26
Khertanyep would be better15:26
elpurisetting opactiy to 0 disables it15:26
w00t_as in, behind your buttons15:26
w00t_the button MouseArea will be in front of it, so they will still work15:27
razvanpetrubehind as in declared earlier in qml, with lower z, or other? :)15:27
Khertanelpuri: true15:27
razvanpetruw00t: by sheet buttons I don't mean the two at the top, I have some buttons inside the sheet. I will try a few things and see how this works if I add another MouseArea15:28
xarcassrazvanpetru: sheet button are not in the 'content' item15:29
razvanpetruxarcass - true15:29
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Khertanpffff i m tired to change password everywhere due to using only 5 or 6 differents password15:30
xarcassrazvanpetru: so, i've declared MouseArea which does nothing with anchors.fill: parent at the top of content item: that solves the issue15:30
Khertanand one site have security breaks15:30
Khertanand can't retain all different password by site15:30
Khertanhum ...15:30
Khertanwhat did you think of using the first 12 char of the result of a md5 of a concatenation of a master password and the domain name of a site15:31
Khertanso one pass for all ... but different for all15:31
DocScrutinizersounds good15:31
razvanpetruthis is a prolbem in qml... because let's say that I design a component that contains a MouseArea15:32
Khertanmd5 representation can be something else than an hex representation :)15:32
razvanpetrunow I'm forcing everyone using that component to use MouseAreas when displaying things on top of it15:32
razvanpetruand I just wanted a clickable TextField :)15:33
DocScrutinizerrazvanpetru: indeed15:34
razvanpetrucan I tell if an Item is obscured by another? I could bind MouseArea.enabled to something like that...15:34
DocScrutinizerthat's a genuine duty of your widget set15:35
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DocScrutinizerrazvanpetru: otoh think about me planning toplce textures ob the mouseAreas of your widget - I'd *want* them to still work15:36
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DocScrutinizerto place*15:36
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razvanpetruwell they would still be visible... or do you want them to be clickable?15:37
razvanpetruI'm working on date picker15:37
razvanpetruit's just a textedit that shows a date picker dialog15:37
razvanpetrudon't know why this was not included by default15:38
razvanpetrusame with combo boxes15:38
DocScrutinizerI think qml has got that unbearable slotmachine datepicker15:40
razvanpetruit does...15:40
DocScrutinizerthere's a bug ticket of me lingering around at nokia's tracker about that15:40
xarcassrazvanpetru: what about so called 'Tumblers'? they are included15:40
razvanpetruxarcass - yes, but those are only part of the date picker15:41
razvanpetruthe part that shows the date on screen is missing15:41
razvanpetrufor instance in ios you have a date edit and when you click that you get the tumbler15:41
razvanpetruwhich makes sense actually...15:41
DocScrutinizerwhat are tumblers? (except they are used to dry my clothes)15:41
Khertanrazvanpetru: and a fileselector .... hum ?15:41
Khertaneveryone is writing is own fileselector15:42
Khertanso it ll be different on all apps and will be disapointing for users15:42
razvanpetruoh yeah :D15:42
xarcassrazvanpetru: we are using, apparently, different kinds of tumblers. i can see date clearly15:42
DocScrutinizerhighly annoying15:42
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razvanpetruxarcass... but can you add those tumblers to a form15:42
razvanpetrue.g name, last name, *date*15:43
DocScrutinizerwell, the gods of meego HARM UX (aka GUI designers) have decided you don't need to expose any file system to HARM endusers15:43
Khertanhihi ... haha ...15:44
Khertanmouarf ...15:44
xarcassrazvanpetru: have a look at "QMLComp..." app - it's done there (i don't know how this app is called properly - that's what is shown)15:44
DocScrutinizerprobably they thought if apple is failing on that concept, it's a challenge Nokia gets it right15:44
KhertanDocScrutinizer: yeah but if users want a iphone they bought a iphone15:44
Khertanif they want something else ... they "could" buy nokia15:45
DocScrutinizerexactly :-D15:45
DocScrutinizeronly if N9 wasn't just another me-too-iPhone-lookalike15:45
razvanpetruwhat's the point in exposing the file system? 99% of users dont care about filesystem15:45
Khertanat least they could by a iphone clone if it was selled 50$15:45
razvanpetrun9 is definitely borrowing elements from iphone15:46
Khertanrazvanpetru: oh really ?15:46
razvanpetrubut the cool thing is that you CAN write a filesystem browser15:46
razvanpetruthis is the big difference15:46
razvanpetruyeah really :)15:46
Khertanrazvanpetru: yep ... but you loose the plateforms look and style15:46
razvanpetruthe text magnifiying glass15:46
Khertanas every apps will look different15:46
razvanpetruI'm sorry they didn't borrow the text copy/paste15:47
razvanpetrugo all in, so to say :>15:47
Khertancopy/paste ? there is that in harmattan ?15:47
Khertandid see it working15:47
DocScrutinizerno, the big difference is fremantle already *had* a fileselector widget, and even MTF had nice usefull date- and time-pickers15:47
Khertandidn't see it working15:47
Hq`there is15:47
Khertanyep the concept is here ... but currently missing15:48
Khertantry webbrowser or terminal .... or ... contacts :)15:48
Khertan(on contacts it can works sometimes)15:48
razvanpetruyeah, it's worse than ios, that's for sure15:49
Hq`maybe it's broken on the public image then...15:49
jkthi there; I'm struggling to get my N950 nnect to the Eduroam network. Any idea about how to convert these settings from wpa_supplicant into that connection UI?15:50
jktand maybe a related question, in the settings dialog with certificates, when I click on "add certificate", the GUI says "no certificate", so what do I have to do in order to actually import one? Where to store it?15:51
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razvanpetruthe sheet MouseArea blocks the buttons from working also...15:53
razvanpetruSheet > ListView > Delegate > Button. MouseArea fills the ListView and buttons stopped working15:54
razvanpetrubut at least I can't click through the sheet now \o/15:55
razvanpetrumaybe I need to add more MouseAreas...15:56
razvanpetruMouseAreas are like violence15:56
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xarcassMouseArea should be *behind* the listview15:59
razvanpetruThanks xarcass, it worked now16:02
razvanpetrubut... isn't the list delegate "in front" of the list view?16:02
jykaeanyone knows how I get my mpoker app to
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jykaeto gain visibility for it16:08
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jykaehmm, ok, sent contact mail.16:12
jykaewho is running that site btw?16:13
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DocScrutinizerjkt: good question16:15
jktDocScrutinizer: yeah :). any ideas?16:16
DocScrutinizerjkt: WLAN login failed for me on a rather standard WPA2 infrastrucure AP yesterday. I pulled out my N900 and connected with no problems... :-S16:16
DocScrutinizerso no, alas no idea at all, just saying it's a really good set of questions16:18
jktDocScrutinizer: frankly, I don't know what the difference between PEAP, MSCHAP, TKIP and what not is; just saying that it is weird16:18
jkt is a bit scary, though16:18
povbotBug 417: Support WEP with 802.1x EAP PEAP16:18
MeeGoBotBug nor, Medium, ---,, VERI INVALID, please enable the CONFIG_RT2860 option in the kernel16:18
ArkenoiPEAP/MSCHAP did not work for me16:18
Arkenoineither with WEP nor with WPA16:18
Arkenoin900 worked ok with WPA16:18
DocScrutinizerjkt: I had to look it up in wikipedia as well ;-D16:18
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jktArkenoi: do you happen to know how to find out what methods the AP/radius infrastructure supports?16:19
jktthe staffers here are not really helpful, saying "it's AES"16:19
jktI do have a linux notebook where I can use various standard tools, though16:19
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Arkenoijkt: dunno :-( just try to guess16:20
DocScrutinizerVERI INVALID? X-D16:20
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DocScrutinizerjkt: has a few explanations, at least of equivalent terms16:29
DocScrutinizere.g. >>CCMP: An AES-based encryption mechanism that is stronger than TKIP. Sometimes referred to as AES instead of CCMP. Used by WPA2.<<16:30
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DocScrutinizerjkt: maybe also helps16:32
DocScrutinizerMy spidersenses tell me the "@realm" part will often give users headache due to the @ character16:34
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: moo16:39
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seifanything new abut new images16:42
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* DocScrutinizer was musing about the aegis dispute as of earlier this day, and had a weird scary imagination of next "developer device" coming with a 12key 1..9*0# kbd and no way to ssh in to device, as developers are supposed to develop their apps on the target platform. "Use T9! This is not a unix workstation, this is an end-user device"16:50
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DocScrutinizerseif: sure, the new images. They come with true N9 feeling: hw-kbd optimized out completely, and you get a huge aegis warning on bootup about the broken NFC hardware ;-P16:55
DocScrutinizerseif: just kidding16:55
jktspeaking of aegis -- where do I found some documentation about how to "deal with it"? I'm trying to have a look at , but I'm unable to even strace the number of existing /usr/bin/signonpluginprocess processes16:58
jktslides from were not that much helpful16:58
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mariobHow are the rounded corners made on several places in the built-in apps? Are shaders used for this?17:28
mariobFor example in the contacts app17:28
ajalkane_images, as far as I know17:34
javispedromariob: what's your toolkit? they should be added auto in most supported toolkits17:35
mariobI mean, for each contact you can have an image... And that image will have rounded corners.17:36
mariobIs that down on the C++ side?17:36
* mariob whishes that Nokia releases some of the code for built-in apps17:38
ajalkane_oh... contacts app uses MTF, Haven't checked it much17:42
mariobajalkane_: was afraid of that...17:44
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DocScrutinizerjkt: that's the neuralgic point here with the missing docu about aegis17:57
Tronicmariob: CSS border-radius would be my guess.17:57
Tronicmariob: Apparently CSS is used for style in some parts of the UI.17:57
Tronic(if not all)17:57
DocScrutinizerjkt: there's sth about MSSF on wiki, but for all I know it just covers the very standard usecase and even that not exactly in a comprehensive way17:58
DocScrutinizerthere are not even manpages for the aegis related cli commands17:59
DocScrutinizerneither for any file formats17:59
DocScrutinizernot even to dream about documentation to details on when aegis self destruction is meant to get triggered, why, and how, and how you'd check if you're already close to stepping on the trigger18:01
DocScrutinizerallegedly my #92 aegis suicide was a bug and not meant to happen, but evidently there's some self destruction mechanism that got implemented on purpose, and it's nowhere documented18:03
TronicI guess we have 92 ways of suicide documented now?18:04
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DocScrutinizerso if you're happy with the Romulanian's 4-dimensional version of minesweeper....18:04
DocScrutinizerI love linux as I always can get my info somehow, I hate windows as you're basically busted if sth doesn't behave or you plan to do sth in a non-standard way. Now guess my feelings towards HARM&aegis18:07
DocScrutinizerwhile on fremantle the locked (due to non-foss blob) bits were mainly some core applications, on HARM basically the complete system is (potentially) locked, and worse: you have no means to find out what's locked and what'S not, until you run into a roadblock18:09
DocScrutinizerextremely risky platform to develop, just from a commercial project risk management POV. If I were to do sth commercially I'd never dare to pick HARM for our target platform18:10
DocScrutinizerjkt: anyway infobot has some links for you:18:15
infobotaegis is, like, , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
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TronicI wonder whether there would be a way to do backup flashing without upsetting aegis.18:17
TronicSo that if you end up triggering it, you could at least recover easily.18:17
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jktDocScrutinizer: thanks for pointers and sharing the frustration :)18:29
DocScrutinizeryw :-D18:30
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jktI have no idea how things stand at other companies, but I start to feel frustrated a bit. The platform looks like an open one from distance, provides a nice and shiny UI when you start working with it, but when you hit a bug and decide to try to fix it, you find out that a critical component is closed and/or should not be touched18:31
jktlike or
jktI mean, it's a developer preview, and it's cool that Nokia went out of their way to provide it to the developers, and I really appreciate it18:32
jktit's just that the tiny last steps are missing18:32
DocScrutinizerjkt: hey I confirmed on that first ticket :-D18:34
javispedroit's funny that the browser-ui is one of those ocomponents that has since nearly forever been promised it'll eventually be released18:34
javispedroand here we are, at the end of time, and it has not been released.18:34
javispedrocome to think of it18:36
javispedrowebkit is GPL18:36
javispedroand NOT LGPL afaik.18:37
w00t_say what?18:37
w00t_webkit isn't *GPL at all18:37
javispedroKHTML surely was18:37
w00t_how do you think safari exists? :)18:37
javispedrooh, it's LGPL.18:38
TermanaThe JavaScriptCore and WebCore components of WebKit are GPL18:38
javispedronah, it's LGPL.18:38
javispedrojust checked on the source itself ;)18:38
javispedroeither way, Nokia is violating, where is libgrob-qtwebkit source?18:39
javispedroalso, note that the reason they're using WebKit2 is not because they can split out plugins in separate processes (we have no plugins!) but because they can split the WebKit process into another process, therefore avoiding any pesky GPL complications.18:41
* javispedro sighs18:41
javispedroand possibly some added stability and more blablablabla.18:41
w00t_I think you'll find it's actually performance/stability related18:41
w00t_#qtwebkit might be of help18:41
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DocScrutinizerpardon my doubt, but since bme in userland I don't believe in a sane rationale when finding this class of design decision taken18:46
w00t_javispedro: from asking one of the right people involved, should be what you want18:47
* javispedro agrees with DocScrutinizer here18:47
javispedroalbeit qtwebkit2 does crash quite a bit.18:47
javispedrow00t_: thanks!18:47
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rzrdont you have the phone screen all black sometime ?19:30
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javispedrorzr: yeah, happened to me, but so far seems random19:48
javispedroTexrat says it is a bunch of 3rdparty apps that cause it, but I've seen it even without installing anything19:49
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npmi bet those third party apps aren't respecting resource policy for resources (e.g. audio or video device) and interfering w/ apps that work correctly (the stock harmattan apps):
javispedrothis policy stuff was already partially in harmattan20:09
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javispedroI mean, fremantle20:09
Stskeepswe even have it in CE20:09
npmand meego tablet ux20:09
javispedromost of the time doing nothing does the right thing, e.g. corking your streams if you get a phone call20:09
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npmi too have seen the black phone screen thing. perhaps i'm seeing it less now that the app that was hogging the resources (qmltube) is now compliant20:10
npmalso, i believe harmattan has a bug there that meego doesn't20:10
npmit doesn't "cork the stream" correctly20:10
javispedroit does very well here20:11
javispedroso well, it triggers exactly the same deadlock in PAsimple it triggered on Fremantle ;)20:11
npmwell if you run qmltube on harmattan, and then startup video-suite and start a video playing qmltube doesn't get the pause signal that the resource went away, rather it gets paused at a lower level inside qt mobility video element20:12
javispedrothat's mostly what it also does for audio20:12
npmdo the same tihing on meego 1.2 tablet ux and it sends the "callback" correctly that the resource went away.20:12
npmand so i can pause the stream in advance of getting the underlying error20:13
javispedroyou mean it is not sending resource revoked msgs correctly?20:13
npmplease try out versus
npmand i'll be fixing the screen-space wasting headers on video playback soon in tablet ux version20:14
npmbut you'll see that behavior -- start qmltube from commandline or qtcreator remote and watch the debug output20:15
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DocScrutinizerso where's any howto or concept paper or manpage about "(un)corking streams"?20:34
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: the one you refer to occasionally and shout they're bloody idiots, i think20:34
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: I don't think I called anybody a bloody idiot any time in my whole life, so please don't spread lies20:35
Stskeepsright, maybe not those exact words, but anyway, that's one place i would look myself20:35
javispedrodon't uncork it using PA or you'll cause havoc in the resource manager20:36
npmlinus torvalds calls people masturbating monkeys :-)20:36
javispedroeither way, this time the resource manager seems to have a saner policy20:36
javispedrolike prioritizing games over music20:36
* javispedro still needs to ensure that is true, but first test showed that might be the case20:37
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javispedroalso, I quite loved that acquiring the music resource means the -/+ buttons are automatically remapped to main volume instead of ringing volume20:38
npmi added a clip of the conversation to
javispedroGAN950: yep, so I can put that to games20:39
javispedronpm: I'm still not sure it has anything to do with resources though.20:40
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javispedroif you believe so you should explain why on that bug, cause from the log it's not clear.20:40
* javispedro enjoys his vsynced SDL some more20:42
javispedroooh, vsynced mario kart.20:42
javispedrohm, just noticing the random noise generation is a bit off20:44
GAN950You can't set up repeating events yet can you?20:44
javispedrouh, a bit, it's totally broken20:45
javispedroGAN950: hm? what do you mean?20:45
StskeepsGAN950: i can, if i go and edit afterwards20:45
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javispedroah, in calendar20:46
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rzrplz vote for it
npmjavispedro: i clarified my "paste"20:49
npmand gave it 100 votes :-)20:49
Stskeeps" which is why the Korean government has stepped in to create its own OS. Kim Jae-hong, deputy minister from Seoul's Ministry of Knowledge Economy, thinks that American dominance in mobile software is generally a bad thing. The minister said that the country would "foster a habitat" for the open-source OS, which might mean incentivized pricing on these device"20:50
Stskeepstime for KRMeeGo, or something20:50
npmwhich i'll reduce as soon as i find some other bug that competes with it in terms of making the phone somewhat painful to use in an emergency20:50
npmit also gets into a state where you can't hang it up without power-cycling.20:50
npmwhich is sort of old school20:51
npmas if all those billions of transistors were just a bunch of wires and magnets20:51
javispedrowelcome to the world of tomorrow!20:52
npmsomeone should write an app to simulate a rotary phone in qt :-)... complete with clicking20:52
alteregonpm: there's a demo doing that.20:53
rzrStskeeps: you're talking about the republic of samsung20:53
npmi wonder if that could be used in certain emergency conditions when the regular tone networks aren't working, perhaps due to an EMP20:53
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rzrI think I screwed someone comments21:01
rzrwho is NielsMayer ?21:02
rzrnpm: that screen does not even show once rebooted my side21:02
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* npm is NielsMayer21:07
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DocScrutinizer(aegis, developer-mode) it all boils down to the true meaning and implications of <quote URL=> If your application needs any POSIX capabilities, the following example shows how to request POSIX capabilities for your application: Note that POSIX capabilities are sensitive credentials. Even if you use the21:11
DocScrutinizerrequest, whether you get the capabilities or not depends on the software source.</quote> How would we add a policy that defines an arbitrary or specified local source as an entitled source for requesting all posix resources?  --  In fact I thought THAT was what developer mode would do, but as I got told in CAPITALS several times developer mode is something completely different (alas I still didn't manage to wrap my head around what it21:11
DocScrutinizeractually is then)21:11
rzrnpm: ok your post seems to be still there21:12
* rzr votes his points on
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DocScrutinizers/posix resources/posix capabilities/21:13
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DocScrutinizeralso to me it seems rather unclear *when* aegis is going to force new credentials/tokens to a process. The >>When your application is launched, the credential information defined in the file is passed on to the system kernel.<< is pretty fuzzy and unclear. What does this mean exactly? is this on execve() and friends? On loading a harmattan app from applications launcher via *.desktop et al? On fork()? On loading an executable to RAM (i.21:26
DocScrutinizere. also for *.so etc)?21:26
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: I thought that developer mode allowed you to install your own binaries with (almost) all possible base capabilities.21:27
dm8tbrbut some apparently not like loading modules, etc bla21:28
dm8tbrso, close but not close enough for an open feeling21:28
DocScrutinizerI.E. will e.g. a (true, non busybox) shell command inherit the shell's capabilities, or are the freshly defined?21:28
dm8tbrI'd expect inheritance, but then I know nothing about this21:29
Stskeepsthat's a funny question actually..21:29
Stskeepswhat aegis permissions a console shell has21:29
Stskeepslike, serial line21:29
dm8tbrI think that's also in this repsok file or what it's called21:30
DocScrutinizerone thing's for sure: aegis "documentation" as of is a joke, an evil pun, or just an introduction that's missing the true proper documentation plus links to that21:30
dm8tbrI've seen serial lines caps being defined there21:30
Stskeepsdm8tbr: ah, ok21:30
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: I truly hope it's just the latter. the very important question is if we get to see the rest21:31
DocScrutinizermy hopes are small for that to ever happen21:31
javispedrohow ineriting works in aegis I've not fully understood yet21:35
rzrnpm: do u see something suspect in my logs at
DocScrutinizeras small actually as my hopes for a proper cert/policy that entitles packages from my local repository to request arbitrary credentials/posix capabilities21:35
javispedroin fact, I think the supposed bug that caused Doc's self-destruction was caused by something related to inheriting tokens.21:36
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RST38hrm_code: Could you quickly add Nokia's own harmattan repos to the packrat?21:40
RST38hrm_code: as a static list whose contents are loaded before wiki is mined for the rest of repo addresses?21:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: nah, according to djszapi I was just making up all that21:41
rm_codeRST38h, i had problems doing that  because they require auth21:42
DocScrutinizerthere is no such thing like a dedicate suicide function in aegis!!1!1!!1121:42
Sputcan the device recover from self-destruction somehow, or is it permanently bricked then?21:42
RST38hrm_code: Oh, true21:42
RST38hrm_code: But not all of them, I think21:43
rzri also noticed the device wont ring too21:43
rm_codeRST38h, this is how i add custom repos:21:43
rm_code  $mrepo = "";21:43
rm_code  print "Manually adding repository ".$mrepo."\n";21:43
rm_code  push(@Result,{("URL"=>$mrepo,"Version"=>'Harmattan',"System"=>'./')});21:43
DocScrutinizerSput: reflash21:43
SputDocScrutinizer: ok. so data loss, but not beyond salvation21:43
Sputthat's... reassuring21:44
SputI keep backups in Ovi Suite anyway :)21:44
npmrzr -- yes21:44
DocScrutinizerSput: though I was willing to believe this suicide-bomber has several different assault modes21:44
javispedroDocScrutinizer: for next time -- it's official name is "MALF"21:44
javispedro(the self destruct feature I mean)21:45
npmrzr : Aug 23 20:01:57 (none) nped[1370]: i2c_write: Remote I/O error21:45
DocScrutinizersbin/malf --final21:45
rm_codenpm, is there a newer qmltube? it stopped working recently21:45
DocScrutinizersbin/malf --just-a-little21:45
RST38hrm_you: yea, that is one way to do it :)21:45
npm <-- rm_code21:45
DocScrutinizersbin/malf --solid-fsckup21:45
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rm_codenpm, k thx :) is that a valid repo?21:46
rm_codenpm, if so i can add it to packrat21:46
rm_codeah k21:46
rm_codeif you want me to add your package to my repo i can21:46
rm_codeit will be packrat indexed21:46
DocScrutinizerit fails to hit me how such a suicide-function is "to protect the user"21:46
npmlet me know if that version works for you and if so, then please add to repo21:46
npmthere's also a more in progress meego ux version
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npmwork in progress that is21:47
rm_codehow usable?21:48
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rm_codenpm, looks working21:52
rm_codedownloads are actually moving instead of failing :P21:52
rm_codeadding to my repo21:52
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: less /etc/init/check_malf.conf; thanks for pointer mate21:54
DocScrutinizer  # We are in MALF state already21:55
DocScrutinizer  #21:55
DocScrutinizer  /usr/sbin/show_malf `cat /var/malf`21:55
DocScrutinizerI bet this will look like my photo21:55
rm_codewtf is malf21:55
Stskeepsthat it 'malfunctions'21:55
DocScrutinizeraegis suicide-bomber21:55
Stskeepsnah, it's older than that21:55
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Stskeepsbut aegis can indicate malf, yeah21:55
rzrnpm: i can reboot to double check21:56
rm_codeso can you just bind something over that file that always indicates no malfunction? :P21:56
DocScrutinizerI bet editing /etc/init/check_malf.conf will trigger MALF ;-P21:56
npmrm_code: thanks... what's your email incase i have an update?21:56
rm_codenpm, check for my notice21:56
DocScrutinizerhehe /etc/init/check_malf.conf, I feel venturous today21:58
SpeedEvilIn principle the 'flash now' screen is good - if it detects stuff right - rather than just silently and confusingly failing.21:58
DocScrutinizeractually /usr/sbin/check_malf21:59
DocScrutinizersay goodbye to my N950 :-D21:59
rm_codeDocScrutinizer, find "good" output of /var/malf, then put that into a file "good_return" and bind it over /var/malf :)22:00
rzrnpm: no i2c err this time22:01
DocScrutinizerrm_code: I gather no output is a good output, actually:22:02
DocScrutinizerelif [ -G /var/malf ]; then22:02
DocScrutinizer  #22:02
DocScrutinizer  # We are in MALF state already22:02
rzr+Aug 23 21:04:54 (none) applifed[847]: Application 'Com.Nokia.Telephony.CallUi' released from prestarted state, count=122:02
rzr+Aug 23 21:04:56 (none) cellular: csd[587]: service suspended, status=822:02
rzr+Aug 23 21:05:02 (none) kernel: [  248.555328] cmt_speech cmt_speech: Write pending on data channel.22:02
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# /usr/sbin/check_malf --help22:02
DocScrutinizerman check_malf *ENTER*22:03
rzrls -l /var/malf22:03
rzrls: /var/malf: No such file or directory22:03
javispedrothere's a set of startup files that should be both a) existing b ) validated by aegis, otherwise -> MALF.22:04
javispedroiirc that included, obviously, malf itself.22:04
DocScrutinizer(sorry djszapi)  FSCK aegis!22:04
javispedroDocScrutinizer: did it self destruct again?22:04
rm_codeyeah but if it uses check_malf to do the check22:04
DocScrutinizernot yet22:05
DocScrutinizerbut doesn't reveal any bit of info either22:05
rm_codeyou should be able to make a new version of check_malf that only returns clean status?22:05
DocScrutinizerI'd maybe test to edit /etc/init/check_malf.conf but it seems to me I already know what's going to follow22:06
DocScrutinizereither FSCK!!!! or MUHAHAHAHA22:06
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DocScrutinizerthough::::  >>-G FILE        True if the file is effectively owned by your group.<<22:08
DocScrutinizercreate /var/malf with another group, with another owner, set 44422:09
DocScrutinizerso nobody can overwrite it22:10
DocScrutinizerneither anybody changes effective group of that file22:11
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DocScrutinizerprobably aegis' cerberus will make damn sure this file gets created with proper effective group no matter what's been there before22:13
rzri think i got more info to share22:14
rzrMAssembly: Stylesheet missing "/usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libminputcontext/style/libminputcontext.css"22:14
DocScrutinizer>>couldn't open page \n Request to open non-local file file://usr/share/images/malfNOK_en_GB.bmp<<22:17
rzrMAssembly: Stylesheet missing "/usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libSignOnUI/style/libSignOnUI.css"22:17
DocScrutinizersomehow microB was way nicer22:17
DocScrutinizerWTF /usr/sbin/enter_malf22:18
DocScrutinizerln -s /usr/sbin/enter_malf /usr/sbin/suicide-bomber22:19
DocScrutinizerSput: if you're curious I suggest you ask /usr/sbin/enter_malf --help to find out if it has a parameter to determine severity of self-destruction ;-P22:20
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DocScrutinizerit will either tell you about possible options, or demonstrate it doesn't take any options22:21
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DocScrutinizeralso reassuring: /lib/dsme/malf.so22:22
DocScrutinizer"we had to restart browserd 10 times! MALFUNCTION DETECTED! please try to reflash, if that fails please visit your local Nokia service-center" heh just kidding?22:23
Stskeepsthat usually shows a deeper problem22:24
DocScrutinizerI'd say /etc/init/check_malf.conf has to die22:24
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: if there is a "deeper problem" then I'd prefer to try and investigate for myself, rather than check_malf suggesting I should reflash (thus nuking all forensic evidence about the actual problem) and to make sure I do it locks the device22:28
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: no arguments there22:28
* javispedro triggers a harmattan gcc bug22:30
javispedroand sadly removing the snippet from its context makes it disappear22:31
javispedroint type = (byte & mask) ? 1 : 0; printf("%d\n", type) --> "16" :D22:32
javispedroif I replace the ternary with an if...else, still fails. If I add two printfs to check with if branch it decides to take, it works.22:32
Stskeepsancient toolchain there, too22:33
infobotjavispedro meant: if I replace the ternary which an if...else, still fails. If I add two printfs to check with if branch it decides to take, it works.22:33
javispedroinfobot: shut up!22:33
infobotget lost, jerkoff22:33
DocScrutinizerint type; int check = (byte & mask); type = check ? 1 : 0;22:35
DocScrutinizers/int check/char check/.22:35
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: seems to work22:36
DocScrutinizerparsing sequence error?22:36
* javispedro thinks it is optimizing something22:36
DocScrutinizerint {type = (byte & mask)} ? 1 : 022:37
javispedronah, byte & mask is 0 btw.22:37
rzrnpm: I got it back22:37
javispedrofor each value of mask in the loop.22:37
rzrnpm: I had to kill it22:37
javispedro(checked with printf too)22:37
rzrnpm: killall -9 call-ui && killall -9 call-ui &&  killall -9 call-ui ; even once rebooted22:37
DocScrutinizerhmm, hoped it's 1622:37
DocScrutinizerlet's call it a bug, and get some club mate aka hackerbrause22:38
javispedroDocScrutinizer: it's in a loop, mask is 0x1, 0x2, ..., 0x16, .. , 0x12822:38
javispedros/0x16/0x10 ;)22:38
javispedros/0x128/128 ;) ;)22:38
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* DocScrutinizer needs a shower, URGENTLY22:39
DocScrutinizer~weather EDDN22:40
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2011.08.23 1920 UTC; Dew Point: 64 F (18 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.94 in. Hg (1014 hPa); Relative Humidity: 65%; Temperature: 77 F (25 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: Variable at 1 MPH (1 KT)22:40
* javispedro applies DocScrutinizer's change and calls it a day22:41
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DocScrutinizerdon't forget to claim your free towel for reporting the bug against gcc22:42
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DocScrutinizergrr he's gone - just when it hits me I once heard something was odd about ternary22:45
lardmanevening all22:49
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lardmanso I'd like to at runtime generate/use a random QML component that will be provided by a plugin; how do I get this component to display in my main QML view?22:50
lardmanmain code is C++ with QDeclarativeEngine etc, and the plugin will also be C++ and generate a QML component22:51
lardmanthe question is whether I need to use some javascript code to create the component from the C++ plugin, or whether I can do this all in C++?22:51
DocScrutinizerhi lardman22:52
lardmanhey Doc22:52
DocScrutinizerhave fun with your demanding concept of dynamic QML ;-D22:53
* lardman is not particularly pleased22:54
DocScrutinizerprobably you'll have to learn how the guts of QML work to get an answer for this question22:54
lardmanporting from dynamic QWidgets is not all that much fun22:54
antman8969let me make sure I understand what you're asking.... you just want to know what you need to make a qml plugin?22:54
lardmanno not really22:54
DocScrutinizer*dynamically* make a plugin22:55
lardmanI've got the main mBarcode code, which is a C++ class to wrap the functionality plus QML code to provide the ui22:55
lardmanthen I have lots of plugins, each of which needs to display a QWidget that it populates with whatever it wants22:55
lardmane.g. buttons to do some action, some labels to describe the contents of the barcode, etc. etc22:55
lardmanthe question is how to get that QWidget into the main QML code22:56
lardmanand whether that should be done by using a QDeclarativeView, whether an app can have more than one QDeclarativeView, etc.22:56
antman8969is this link useful?
DocScrutinizeron Qt plain it'd be pretty easy22:56
lardmanor whether to load the plugin's QML file dynamically using Javascript22:57
lardmanDocScrutinizer: yeah in C++ code it all worked fine22:57
lardmanantman8969: looking now22:57
antman8969i THINK thats what you want...22:57
antman8969I know it warns you that it's "slower" to use QDeclarative view (for starting up) but I think you should test it and see how much slower it actually is22:58
antman8969especially on the n950 hardware22:58
lardmanhmm, I think that's a way of wrapping your entire application22:58
lardmanoh I see, I can do  QGraphicsObject *object = qobject_cast<QGraphicsObject *>(component.create());22:59
antman8969the last section22:59
DocScrutinizerwell it's half the rent22:59
DocScrutinizeryou can call QML from Qt22:59
DocScrutinizernow you need to integrate this Qt/C++ code to QML23:00
lardmanyeah I know you can manipulate from both sides, but that then means they are pretty intertwined, which is the whole thing QML is supposed to get away from I thought23:00
DocScrutinizerbut actually better ignore me, I have NFC about QML and not much revent experience with Qt either23:00
antman8969I agree lardman, I would want to stay away from controlling QML from Qt23:01
antman8969from C++ rather23:01
lardmanI'm still a bit fuzzy about how I should place the component I create too23:01
lardmanwith C++ I could generate a QWidget in my plugin, pass it back and have the main code put it somewhere23:01
lardmanI guess I could achieve that with Javascript23:01
antman8969The entire point of using QWidget in your application is... you already have a working version and don't want to rewrite?23:01
lardmannot quite, I've altered the app quite a bit, but basically the plugin needs to pass back some component that will be self contained and displayed23:02
Sputlardman: also relying on QGraphics* is a bad idea, as that's going away in Qt523:02
Sput(not the actual QGV stuff, but QML no longer will be based on it)23:02
lardmanso it's not currently a QWidget, I'm just using that as I'm familiary with the C++ terminology23:02
lardmanSput: ok, all the more reason to not go that route then23:03
antman8969if thats the case, then I'd obviously recommend QML lol23:03
lardmanantman8969: yeah but the plugin is C++23:03
Sputyou can always use QDeclarativeItem23:03
antman8969you can make plugins available too, and just have the QML talk to the C++ for the data you need23:03
Sputjust don't assume that that's based on QGV in the future23:03
lardmanSput: so the plugin can return a QDeclarativeItem in C++, and then somehow have that created from the main code?23:04
Sputyou can use a QDeclarativeItem implemented in C++ as a normal Item element in QML23:04
antman8969is this mbarcode reader lardman?23:04
lardmanantman8969: yeah23:04
lardmanSput: ok, but when I write the main code I don't know what the component will be called, that only happens at runtime23:05
antman8969thats why I would rather just use the plugin to deliver a model or data. You can dynamically create QML delegates as you need to much easier23:05
lardmanantman8969: the plugin needs to decode the barcode contents e.g. for a vCard work out what the fields mean, and present that to the user23:06
antman8969well, does it HAVE to do all of that? or can it just decode, pass a model to QML and then have a ListView (or something similar) display the data to the user23:07
lardmanseems a bit clunky to generate a QString filled with QML code to create the component to be displayed, is that what you're suggesting?23:07
antman8969not rly23:07
antman8969you can make a QAbstractListModel type class if you wanted23:07
lardmanantman8969: well there are lots of options of course, that was what the old version did, but it would be nicer for the user to be presented with a decoded view of the payload imo23:07
antman8969and then use it in one of the builtin ListViews of qml23:07
antman8969I guess I don't see why that isn't possible with my suggestion, just a different type of data being passed to QML23:08
lardmanalso things like vCards can contain email addresses and urls, it would be useful for the user to be able to open these or to import the whole thing, etc. the choice should be left up to the plugin writer23:08
lardmanso what about a geo: payload, showing a map location?23:09
lardmanit would be good to show a map with a pin, rather than just a couple of lines of description of lat/lon23:09
lardmancertainly when I was sketching out the code I was planning a multiline label, but that's not very nice to look at or use23:10
hardakermarble is supposedly embeddeblae fairly easily.23:10
hardakerbut I haven't tried it.23:10
antman8969i've not used QtMobility form QML yet, but thats where the maps stuff is I think. As long as QML at some point gets the lat/lon, you can bring up a map to display it.23:10
antman8969you can also separate the plugins functionality. You can use c++ code without making it a plugin too23:11
lardmanantman8969: I don't want the main code to have to handle every possibility for what to display though, I'd like the plugin to generate its own QML component to display and handle any interaction23:11
antman8969you can have your map function called from QML after the QML receives the data from the decoded barcodes (from your plugin)23:11
antman8969so it's more of a "mbarcode" plugin than a series of "docoder" plugin, "map" plugin etc...23:12
antman8969well, you know that theres really on right way23:12
antman8969I just like to keep everything separate as much as possible23:12
lardmanah slight misunderstanding here, the main code accepts the decoded barcode data as a string, then it passes it to the plugins which decide which can handle the payload best23:12
antman8969now, when you say "main" code, you mean qt c++ code? or code in main()23:13
lardmanmain code is the Qt C++ code with a QML ui23:13
lardmanso main as opposed to plugin codes23:13
lardmanthe reason for plugins is that some payloads can contain a number of different content types. E.g. a vCard could contain both the cVard and as fields an URL an email telephone numbers, etc.23:14
djszapi_Sput: Did you find a solution for your issue after all ?23:14
Sputdjszapi_: haven't had the time today to play with the SDK :/23:15
lardmanso each plugin will look for something it can handle in the string it is passed, and then they are ranked such that if a vCard is detected that will be displayed, rather than just the URL, etc23:15
SputI took note of the hint and will try soon23:15
DocScrutinizerlardman: ( don't want the main code to have to handle every possibility...) fair enough, as the plugin even might want to use a custom made widget23:15
antman8969right lardman. I've never worked with barcodes to I could be missing something btw. But23:15
antman8969thats where MY plugin's job would end, decode and then thats all. Making it responsible for so much as to include generating the UI is daunting23:16
lardmanantman8969: the barcode decoding is now handled by a daemon called PhotoAnalyser which sits and scans new photographs23:16
lardmanthat then sends a DBus message if it sees a barcode; mBarcode then wakes up (or is started) and handles the payload of the barcode23:17
lardmanso mBarcode now really is only focussed on doing something with what was in the barcode, rather than with the scanning and decoding parts23:17
antman8969ok, just let's say I scan a barcode with a vcard in it. can you tell me what happens to that data after it's decoded23:18
antman8969in your model23:18
lardmanthis also means that PhotoAnalyser can perform more than just barcode extraction, e.g. text extraction and translation would be quite doable23:18
lardmanantman8969: it's decoded and the string is sent over DBus to mBarcode23:18
antman8969and from there23:18
DocScrutinizerlardman: do you need to place the plugin's GUI inside the main window? It could open its own window?23:19
lardmanmBarcode then sends that data to each of its plugins, waits for them to all reply whether they can handle the barcode type and payload or not and then asks the highest priority one to return a widget for display23:19
lardmanDocScrutinizer: better inside the main UI, as thay houses the history list and a centralised settings page, etc23:19
lardmanalso fewer open windows is better imo23:19
antman8969oooh, the plugins main job IS to make the widget, I thought it was doing much more...23:20
DocScrutinizeryeah, sure23:20
lardmanantman8969: it makes the widget, then waits for the widget to ask it to do something - e.g. add the vCard, open a URL/email/etc23:20
lardmanbutton presses, etc23:20
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antman8969I would still end up using QML and Javascript for most things... If you were going to use your plugins then you need to figure out how to make them available... but you know that already lol23:22
lardmanok I reckon I can do the following - return a QDeclarativeItem from the plugin, plus its name; send that by way of a signal to the QML code that is attached to my main mBarcode object (which is exposed to QML), then have some javascript code create the plugin-created item in the main QML "view"23:22
djszapi_SpeedEvil: What was your issue about aegis and maps ?23:23
antman8969lardman that sounds good. And from that it sounds like you already know that you can send signals from Qt and catch them in QML23:23
lardmanantman8969: yeah I've read that stuff, seems quite straight forward... hopefully ;)23:24
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antman8969wouldn't be bad at all. You wouldn't need much javascript either, just something like23:25
antman8969onSignal: loader.sourceComponent = myPluginItem23:25
antman8969and have a loader as the main comp for that screen23:25
DocScrutinizerlardman|afk: what about doing *all* QML wrapped into this QDeclarative wrapper and control it from C++ main()23:28
DocScrutinizerlardman|afk: not only plugins but also your main code's GUI23:29
djszapi_jkt: use develsh for strace.23:30
DocScrutinizerdjszapi_: can you tell me _when_ a process gets assigned its credentials/tokens/capabilities? As in "the posix capabilities are derived from aegis and set to kernel on (2) execve()23:32
DocScrutinizeror is it just the harmattan launcher that does this?23:32
SpeedEvildjszapi_: I cannot for some reason on my device create a new nokia account. This may be an unrelated bug - however, when I attempt to do so, I get no network traffic - just 'unavailable' - I forget the exact error. Someone elses comment lead me to believe it was possible that all account verification is done through aegis.23:33
DocScrutinizeror maybe even (2) fork() ?23:33
SpeedEvildjszapi_: I hypothesised that somehow the chain of trust is broken on my device, leading to aegis reporting a failure creating/obtaining a key or something, which manifests in 'can't open account'.23:35
SpeedEvildjszapi_: It could of course be something else - but if this is true, it indicates what might happen with an unapproved kernel. I haven't been screwing with the kernel however. Can't create account = can't access maps or drive.23:36
djszapi_SpeedEvil: You are using tha Harmattan image ?23:36
antman8969speedevil, have you tested the theory with other account creations?23:36
SpeedEvildjszapi_: I'm using the most recent publically available image.23:36
djszapi_SpeedEvil: if it is not custom kernel, could you please send me the scenario how it is supposed to be reproducible ?23:37
SpeedEvildjszapi_: No, as it's apparantly not for anyone else.23:37
SpeedEvilFlash device - connect to 3g internet - attempt to add nokia account -> service unavailable23:38
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djszapi_SpeedEvil: no idea about the account verification and how they implemented it. You might need to ask the developers of the application.23:39
npmrzr -- perhaps i did the same as your " killall -9 call-ui && killall -9 call-ui &&  killall -9 call-ui " when i did a "close all" in app manager23:39
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: djszapi_: ^^^ this ticket is about that issue23:39
SpeedEvilAdding a facebook account works23:41
SpeedEvilI forgot about my facebook account, as it's in a fake name, and I don't use it.23:41
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djszapi_SpeedEvil: but at any rate, if it is any security "related", it is related to the application and their misusage of the security framework. It is not us how wrote the application. :) Feel free to prove me wrong with logs, outputs.23:42
SpeedEvilAfter adding FB account, try to add nokia account in the same way.23:42
SpeedEvil'service currently unavailable'23:42
djszapi_SpeedEvil: It seems to work here.23:42
SpeedEvilFor most it works.23:43
SpeedEvilThere are no docs as to the seciruty framework, and how it interacts with apps (that I've seen), so I'm guessing.23:43
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: try deleting all cookies23:43
djszapi_SpeedEvil: try to grep for aegis in syslog.23:43
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I reflashed23:44
antman8969does harmattan use the same flasher utility has the n900? flasher-3.5 or w/e23:44
SpeedEvilA couple of times - with no results.23:44
DocScrutinizerand it still fails :-/23:44
rzrdoes it worth to be reflashed ?23:44
DocScrutinizerantman8969: no23:45
djszapi_antman8969: imo nope23:45
DocScrutinizernew flasher23:45
antman8969just saw from the site.. thanks23:45
antman8969556 mb download...23:45
DocScrutinizeryup, sounds correct23:45
djszapi_so small ?23:45
DocScrutinizerwell, these 556MB is all we get for N950 ;-D23:46
DocScrutinizerno angry birds in there ;-)23:47
* SpeedEvil doesn't see any clearly obviously smoking guns in syslog.23:48
* SpeedEvil tries rebooting.23:48
djszapi_SpeedEvil: issues relevant to missing credentials and capabilities are normally reported in syslog (not 1:1, but yep).23:48
DocScrutinizerI hnestly doubt that nokia account issue is related to security at all23:48
djszapi_if there is nothing in syslog, it is probably not aegis issue23:48
SpeedEvilOk - thanks - that's useful.23:49
djszapi_DocScrutinizer: everything is related ;-)23:49
SpeedEvilI question what the hell it can be though.23:49
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DocScrutinizercreating a nokia account seems a web service (more or less), and it also seems that account management is kinda messed up even when you try to access it via firefox from your PC23:50
SpeedEvilDisentangling between poorly understood security infrastructure, old bugs that are possibly fixed by now, and PEBKAC is fun.23:50
djszapi_mmm, javispedro did not know how the inheritance works for the capabilities, that is simple to clarify, there is an add policy, that is23:51
DocScrutinizerthinking about it I never *created* an account on N950, I just used an already existing account's credentials23:51
SpeedEvilI've tried both, neither worked.23:52
DocScrutinizerand that worked after reflash or maybe unrelated to that, and since then maps and drive are ok23:52
djszapi_SpeedEvil: Yes, it can be frustrating, and that is why I am trying to help with where I can ;-)23:52
DocScrutinizerI think trying to create an account drops a cookie that taints your system soo nothing will work from then on23:53
SpeedEvilBut drops a cookie somewhere that survives flashing???23:53
SpeedEvilThat's part of the reason I was wondering if it was some secure storage area that the user can never touch.23:53
DocScrutinizeras mentioned above it worked for me after flashing. Also for somebody else on that ticket23:53
SpeedEvilYeah - that's what confused.23:54
SpeedEvilAug 23 21:51:50 (none) mission-control-5[794]: GLIB CRITICAL ** default - ag_account_get_selected_service: assertion `AG_IS_ACCOUNT (account)' failed23:55
DocScrutinizermaybe you also need to log out from your account and related sites on all your other devices prior to this thing working on N950, who knows. Similar advice regularly given by quim et al for and the launchpad23:55
SpeedEvilI'm not logged in on any devices on that account.23:56
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djszapi_DocScrutinizer: system kernel is not execve, nope.23:56
djszapi_not even fork and friends.23:57
rzrdjszapi_: still on kde ?23:57
DocScrutinizerno idea honestly. You'd think somebody who has better access to the source and to debugging tools should answer on eventually23:57
djszapi_I.E. will e.g. a (true, non busybox) shell command inherit the shell's capabilities, or are the freshly defined? -> it depends, it is not that simple.23:57
DocScrutinizeryeah, that's why I ask23:58
lardmanantman8969: exactly23:58
djszapi_it is not a comprehensive yes/no answer.23:58
djszapi_javispedro was basically asking the same. The key point is the add policy here.23:58
lardmanDocScrutinizer: the problem with controlling the QML from the C++ is that it goes against the idea of separating the C++ and QML code, afaiu23:58
djszapi_rzr: sorry ?23:59
DocScrutinizerunless I at least understand WHEN aegis kicks in, I never can wrap my head around how it works at large23:59
mikhaslardman, huh?23:59

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