IRC log of #harmattan for Sunday, 2011-07-31

lardman	re	00:02
lardman	mgedmin: yeah barcodes, and also other data extracted from photos taken wit the standard camera	00:03
lardman	DocScrutinizer: QFileSystemWatcher wraps the inotify stuff	00:04
lardman	Hooking into tracker would be an option of course, though I was trying to avoid adding complexity	00:04
lardman	as this route becomes more complex.... ;)	00:04
lardman	ah, close write notification.... hmm is it worth writing my own Qt wrapper for that I wonder....	00:05
* lardman really does head off this time		00:06
lardman	night all, catch you tomorrow	00:06
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leinir	hm... not easy to build something which looks like the add contact dialogue... when the components for building it aren't the ones available to us mere mortals :P	00:45
mikhas	leinir, ask them	00:45
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leinir_	more than that, however, is that my internets are utterly and, it seems, irrevocably broken :P	00:53
leinir_	(luckily i'm moving soon, to a place where the phone wires are younger than a fifty years :P )	00:53
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leinir_	Hmm... is there a list of the various ui variables? such as font sizes and that sort :)	00:56
mikhas	yes	00:56
mikhas	You should find it somewhere in the Qt Quick Components repo.	00:57
mikhas	Because they need to hardcode this stuff, too, in lieu of a theming engine.	00:57
leinir_	Hmm... very silly... i think i've got it, though, it seems to be in the ui guidelines )	00:58
leinir_	:)	00:58
djszapi	well, it is still better than some things in libmeegotouch.	00:59
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rm_you	errrr what	05:30
rm_you	http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program/Nokia#FIXME_Unclear_cases_.26_lazy_wiki_editors	05:30
rm_you	how am i an unclear case or a lazy wiki editor	05:30
rm_you	the moment i received my device i updated it to say "Device Received". how more clear could i have gotten	05:30
rm_you	"Adam Harwell Device Received"	05:31
rm_you	i'm in with a bunch of people who didn't update	05:31
rm_you	that makes no sense	05:31
SpeedEvil	The editor can't edit properly pro bably	05:32
SpeedEvil	put your entry in the right group	05:32
rm_you	just annoying, because i was trying to be very purposefully helpful and keep my entry up to date	05:33
rm_you	and i get shoved in with a bunch of people who actually didn't	05:33
rm_you	edited. still weird.	05:36
rm_you	anywho, off to see captain america	05:36
rm_you	he's from AMERICA	05:36
* rm_you leaves		05:36
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antman8969	any one else have their n950s stop showing emoticons?	05:41
antman8969	it's kind of annoying now	05:41
trx	wow, i didn't even get my n950	05:45
trx	and you have trouble with emoticons..	05:46
trx	:)	05:46
antman8969	one day you'll be able to wonder what people are feeling in texts too	05:46
antman8969	awesome :) != awesome :(	05:46
Termana	morning	05:53
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GeneralAntilles	http://heytell.com/	06:07
GeneralAntilles	^	06:07
GeneralAntilles	Somebody needs to implement that for Harmattan.	06:07
GeneralAntilles	Maybe just use MMS.	06:07
SpeedEvil	Not quite	06:08
SpeedEvil	It's a GSM feature.	06:09
SpeedEvil	Oh - maybe not	06:09
SpeedEvil	In that implementation.	06:09
SpeedEvil	But push-talk is a supported feature of GSM.	06:09
SpeedEvil	Seems that that might be VOIP instead	06:09
SpeedEvil	ah - yeah - voip	06:10
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, right, but we'd have to host the backend servers then.	06:41
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, would it be feasible to hook into Telepathy and MMS instead?	06:42
SpeedEvil	MMS is not a transparent byte stream.	06:42
SpeedEvil	It will only pass certain classes of object	06:42
GeneralAntilles	Ah, OK.	06:42
SpeedEvil	Also - it's murderously expensive.	06:42
GeneralAntilles	True	06:42
DocScrutinizer	(AFAIK:) basically MMS is just sending a "special" SMS with an URL that points to a the real content, which is then going to get downloaded usually from a "darknet" I.E. a dedicated APN, that also has its own charging plan	06:45
GeneralAntilles	Aaah, right then.	06:46
DocScrutinizer	s/sending/addressee receiving/	06:46
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: (AFAIK:) basically MMS is just addressee receiving a "special" SMS with an URL that points to a the real content, which is then going to get downloaded usually from a "darknet" I.E. a dedicated APN, that also has its own charging plan	06:46
GeneralAntilles	So, then, no MMS.	06:46
GeneralAntilles	Just push it all over Telepathy?	06:46
GeneralAntilles	(Does that previous sentence actually mean anything?)	06:48
DocScrutinizer	mine? sorry was a bit scrambled maybe	06:48
GeneralAntilles	No, mine about Telepathy.	06:49
GeneralAntilles	Yours was perfect.	06:49
SpeedEvil	In principle, it's not that expensive.	06:50
SpeedEvil	Find a flexible web service.	06:50
SpeedEvil	Something like amazon.	06:50
SpeedEvil	Which you can scale arbitrarily, to act like a bouncer	06:50
DocScrutinizer	MMS means the provider's MMS exchange sends a special SMS to addressee. This SMS is much like a normal SMS but holds a URL pointing to a server with your multimedia content. The download from this server will be like TCP but not via public internet usually. Rather it uses a dedicated APN for access to a closed WAN	06:51
DocScrutinizer	meh, and I tried so hard to get a better one ;-P	06:51
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer, hey, practice makes perfect, right? :P	06:52
DocScrutinizer	yeah, I'm practicing patience and restraint on dealing with trolls like fahadj2003 and un_abill_uk	06:55
Termana	Does HeyTell use MMS? I think the good part of it, at least from the demo, is it seems to be instant. I don't know about everyone else but MMS has always been SLOW as a dog for me, so something tells me it's not.	06:55
DocScrutinizer	I'm afraid I'll never get perfect on that discipline though	06:55
GeneralAntilles	No, it's VoIP or something.	06:55
DocScrutinizer	PTT? afaik that's more or less like parking/putting_on_hold a normal (or conference) call	06:57
DocScrutinizer	there was a similar feature for ISDN since dunno 1990	06:58
DocScrutinizer	basically you keep the INVITE/session (the connection), and just stop data transmission. Resume is almost instant (nn milliseconds)	06:59
DocScrutinizer	for PTT it's also one-to-many (conference), and half-duplex (you can't listen while you speak - aka PushToTalk :-D ) usually	07:01
DocScrutinizer	(/AFAIK)	07:02
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Stskeeps	mgedmin: use meego.com login	08:14
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rm_you	errr	08:38
rm_you	am i the only person that doesn't understand what the difference is between this push to talk thing, and making a damn phonecall?	08:38
rm_you	except that push to talk is more annoying and you have to constantly be pressing a button?	08:38
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DocScrutinizer	rm_you: call setup is instant	08:39
rm_you	umm	08:39
rm_you	like	08:39
DocScrutinizer	rm_you: far end doesn't need to accept call, as it'S already established	08:39
rm_you	when you press the "call button"?	08:39
rm_you	ah.	08:39
rm_you	so	08:39
rm_you	basically an auto-accept?	08:39
rm_you	that sounds like a bad idea	08:39
rm_you	wouldn't it have to let you know a message is ready	08:40
rm_you	and you then click play?	08:40
rm_you	at which point, just answer the phone	08:40
DocScrutinizer	that is implementation detail - how does that matter	08:40
rm_you	this demo is entirely un-enlightening	08:40
DocScrutinizer	PTT is walkie-talkie for GSM	08:41
rm_you	i guess i could see applications if it were broadcast like a walkie talkie	08:42
rm_you	so multiple people could get it	08:42
rm_you	otherwise i still don't see why not just make a phone call	08:42
DocScrutinizer	it isa	08:42
DocScrutinizer	is*	08:42
rm_you	ok so...	08:42
rm_you	you just need to make the initial handshake	08:42
rm_you	can we intercept SMS?	08:42
DocScrutinizer	read backscroll, I explained about that	08:43
rm_you	yeah	08:43
rm_you	but	08:43
rm_you	not sending messages over SMS	08:43
rm_you	SMS communicates the invite to a "channel" or somesuch	08:43
rm_you	with connect-back details	08:43
rm_you	probably would require something like a tracker	08:43
rm_you	(like a bittorrent tracker)	08:43
rm_you	except instead of joining a bittorrent swarm, you join a call	08:44
rm_you	the tracker maintains connection details to active clients (phones0	08:44
rm_you	)	08:44
rm_you	and the rest is P2P	08:44
rm_you	the only SMS is the first invite	08:44
DocScrutinizer	nfc, I only know GSM based PTT	08:44
rm_you	the app intercepts the invite-SMS, and opens itself and says "you've been invited to this conversation, join?"	08:45
rm_you	and it basically just has the tracker IP and the convo UID	08:45
rm_you	so then you become an active client	08:45
rm_you	and the rest works like bittorrent	08:45
rm_you	actually it could work EXACTLY like BT	08:46
rm_you	your message gets sent to everyone in the convo	08:46
rm_you	and once one or two have it, they can help send parts :P	08:46
rm_you	i'm just saying, that's an idea about how to do it	08:46
rm_you	probably it is not set up that way at all for heytell, lol	08:46
DocScrutinizer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_to_talk#Current_use_in_mobile_telephony_.28PoC.29	08:47
rm_you	i'm not really talking about how it ACTUALLY works, i'm just theorizing one way to accomplish the end result	08:48
rm_you	this sounds much to limiting, compared to what i was theorizing	08:48
DocScrutinizer	>>PTT. OMA PoC also assumed it is a service for consumers which is not true. PTT/PoC is an enterprise service. On the bottom line, it is more of a North American phenomenon due to existence of iDEN and other networks. Other parts of the world do not know the service and operators are having a hard time identifying who needs this service<<	08:56
rm_you	lol	08:56
rm_you	well i've expended all of my ingenuity for the night	09:16
rm_you	it's sleep time ;P	09:16
* rm_you sleeps		09:16
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RST38h	Anyone has got an example of adding items to the application toolbar?	10:04
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hiemanshu	RST38h: widgets gallery?	11:08
* dm8tbr ponders how to figure out how to reimplement the google-talk account plugin to make telepathy work with arbitrary xmpp servers		11:10
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Arkenoi	dm8tbr: where can i get google talk account plugin?	11:23
dm8tbr	Arkenoi: I saw a screenshot somewhere	11:24
Arkenoi	ah. i guess it is not released yet.	11:25
dm8tbr	Arkenoi: more interesting is that there is telepathy and probably telpathy-gabble	11:25
Arkenoi	yes, both are in default install, but not account plugin	11:26
dm8tbr	now the interesting thing will be to make an account-ui that makes telepathy talk to XMPP servers	11:26
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RST38h	Anyone actually developing for n950 here?	11:36
rcg	yep	11:39
rcg	morning btw ;)	11:39
* mikhas raises hand		11:39
rcg	i think most people in here are developing for n950	11:40
ieatlint	n9/50... yeah... kinda wasting your time in this channel otherwise	11:42
RST38h	rcg, ieatlint: Could you enlighten me on how to add items to that gray toolbar at the bottom of harmattan QMainWindow???	11:43
RST38h	I cannot even get a pointer to this toolbar...	11:43
Stskeeps	RST38h: i think you're in for a world of hurt if you rely on meegotouch-qt-style :P	11:44
ieatlint	uh, grey toolbar at the bottom?	11:44
rcg	RST38h: well i did all my ui stuff in qml.. there its pretty straightforward to do this	11:44
ieatlint	yeah, you should be using qml, or if you're feeling particularly adventurous, mtf	11:44
RST38h	Stskeeps: I am using QMainWindow, it is plain Qt, syntactically	11:45
RST38h	rcg,ieatlint: ok, thanks	11:45
RST38h	Anyone who knows the answer?	11:45
RST38h	Stskeeps: and, as the bar shows up anyway, I can just as well use it for adding items, right?	11:45
ieatlint	i suspect you won't find the answer you're looking for... mtf is as close as you'll get without touching qml	11:45
Stskeeps	RST38h: yes, just warning you that qt probably isn't styled in any mobile way on final devices	11:45
Stskeeps	RST38h: a screenshot would help	11:46
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ieatlint	i think you're just seeing the statusbar that's part of a qmainwindow	11:46
rcg	well.. plain qt apps on the n950 essentially look like plain desktop apps	11:46
ieatlint	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qmainwindow.html#statusBar	11:46
ieatlint	but that won't behave as you think it will	11:47
RST38h	Stskeeps: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5967615095_383c5b6427.jpg (the one with the plus)	11:47
RST38h	ieatlint: attempts to remove the status bar do not.	11:47
Stskeeps	RST38h: is that qml or not?	11:48
rcg	qml actually aint that hard.. and you can quite easily interact with your existing Qt/C++ classes	11:48
RST38h	Stskeeps: QMainWindow,no qml	11:48
ieatlint	RST38h: the notes app is either qml or mtf, i don't know which	11:48
Stskeeps	RST38h: ok, how does this look with -style plastique? :P	11:48
ieatlint	but it's not straight qt methinks	11:48
Stskeeps	meegotouch-qt-style is -really really buggy-	11:48
RST38h	Stskeeps: dunno, lemme try	11:48
RST38h	Stskeeps: looks the same	11:49
Stskeeps	RST38h: doesn't sound right, should revert to plain-qt	11:50
RST38h	Stskeeps: nope	11:50
RST38h	Stskeeps: always shows up.	11:50
RST38h	Stskeeps: every single harmattan app comes with this bar.Plain QMainWindow shows up with this bar (no MTF in sight)	11:54
RST38h	Stskeeps: and you are saying it should not be there? =)	11:54
Stskeeps	RST38h: pretty much, as your ui very much looks styled	11:54
RST38h	hmmmmmmm	11:54
RST38h	that screenshot was not my ui btw, simply an example	11:55
MohammadAG	RST38h, try showFullscreen() in main.cpp	11:56
RST38h	Yes, it hides the bar	11:56
frals	the bar is the toolbar, dunno how its supported in plain qt applications though...	11:56
RST38h	Mohamad: But I would like to add some buttons to it	11:56
MohammadAG	RST38h, QMenuBar	11:56
frals	i have a feeling you would have to do qml or mtf to control it, but im just speculating	11:56
RST38h	frals: Can I get a pointer to it somehow, from QMainWindow?	11:56
frals	or yeah, maybe qmenubar as MohammadAG says	11:57
RST38h	Mohammad: adding a menu bar creates a new bar	11:57
MohammadAG	o_O	11:57
RST38h	Mohammad:in Qt default style	11:57
RST38h	Mohammad: asking for a status bar also create a new status bar	11:57
RST38h	in Qt default style as well	11:57
MohammadAG	my QMenuBar shows as a button in the bottom right	11:57
RST38h	So, this thick gray thing is something else	11:58
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RST38h	Mohammad: Shows as a real desktop-like bar here	11:58
MohammadAG	hmm, that's weird	11:58
* MohammadAG gets on his laptop		11:58
MohammadAG	oh nice, laptop doesn't turn on	12:00
RST38h	Mohammad: Try calling menuBar() and statusBar() on your QMainWindow.See if you get extra bars.	12:00
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MohammadAG	Looks like it's fried or something	12:01
RST38h	hmmm	12:03
MohammadAG	and my N900's uSD looks fried too	12:03
MohammadAG	49894.842987] mmc0: error -110 whilst initialising SD card	12:04
MohammadAG	fuck	12:04
MohammadAG	there goes my music library	12:04
RST38h	remove, reinsert	12:04
Stskeeps	yeah, what rst38h said	12:04
MohammadAG	done that	12:04
ieatlint	but on the plus side, you apparently got your n950	12:04
Stskeeps	perhaps take it past a pc	12:04
RST38h	The Tentacled One rarely strikes all gadgets at once.	12:05
MohammadAG	it's back	12:05
ieatlint	fsm?	12:05
MohammadAG	and my laptop turned on, weird	12:05
RST38h	Ok, an easier question: how do I listen to QActions using a single function and distinguish which QAction triggered it>	12:05
RST38h	?	12:05
MohammadAG	oh fuck	12:06
MohammadAG	I had the a different HP charger in it	12:06
RST38h	the connect() approach does not appear to let e do it	12:06
ieatlint	RST38h: there's a macro that tells you the calling object for a slot, but i've been told it's sloppy to use it	12:06
* RST38h will be sloppy when everything else fails.		12:07
ieatlint	trying to find it	12:07
ieatlint	QObject::sender() ... ok, not a macro	12:08
ieatlint	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qobject.html#sender	12:08
ieatlint	complete with the warnings that it's not a good idea to use most of the time	12:09
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RST38h	ieatlint: thanks =)	12:11
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RST38h	sbox-HARMATTAN_ARMEL: /host/EMUL8/Speccy/Meego/Package] > /usr/bin/moc	12:30
RST38h	bash: /usr/bin/moc: No such file or directory	12:30
* RST38h wonders if QActions can be used without resorting to signals, slots, and the moc madness		12:32
ieatlint	uh, missing moc means your toolchain is broken	12:32
ieatlint	i don't think you'll avoid moc by not using signal anyway	12:33
RST38h	of course I will	12:34
RST38h	already have	12:34
RST38h	the moc binary is actually there, sb just can't run it	12:35
ieatlint	heh, nice	12:35
ieatlint	and generally no, using qaction without signals/slots is a bad idea	12:35
ieatlint	you might be able to accomplish it by subclassing qaction and reimplementing event() to do your own bidding	12:36
ieatlint	but remember event() should return quickly... and enjoy working on cross thread communication without signals/slots	12:36
RST38h	ieatlint: ah, goodidea	12:37
* RST38h goes off to subclass QAction		12:38
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* ieatlint is happy he'll never have to maintain RST38h's code :)		12:38
* vandenoever wonders how to paste from clipboard to terminal on n950		12:43
kimju	I don't think it is possible currently.	12:45
kimju	on meego-terminal git there are newer version that has some copy/paste support, but not yet enabled on mtf.	12:46
vandenoever	kimju: what is mtf?	12:46
kimju	meegotouchframework	12:47
RST38h	ieatlint: much cleaner than you think	12:47
vandenoever	ok, so it's pretty integral	12:47
RST38h	ieatlint: just becase qt trolls tell you they do not like something, does not mean it can be used sanely	12:48
kimju	https://gitorious.org/meego-terminal/meego-terminal/commit/f268c844b2ef4eed63f10b72e9a6cdb0a758f31c	12:48
ieatlint	i can believe that about qobject::sender(), but subclassing qaction to avoid using the triggered() signal seems scary to me	12:49
RST38h	ieatlint: I am not avoiding anything	12:51
RST38h	ieatlint: I have got code that handles menu items as virtual key clicks	12:52
RST38h	ieatlint: which makes my code portable, unlike the stuff produced by the qt team	12:53
RST38h	ieatlint: Now, since I am only interested in QAction::data() field and not in creating a separate callback function for each QAction, the signal/slot model is basically useless for me, a hindrance if you wish	12:53
RST38h	Hence QAction subclassing, thanks for the tip	12:54
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RST38h	Nah, it is weird but QAction activations are NOT sent through QAction::event()	13:30
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RST38h	MOOO wazd	13:32
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RST38h	Stskeeps,are you there?	13:44
wazd_	RST38h: o/	13:45
RST38h	Why would sb1 fail to run moc?	13:47
RST38h	/usr/bin/moc is a symlink to /usr/bin/host-moc	13:47
RST38h	the host-moc is an ARM binary. but it does not run.	13:47
kimju	is other host-* binaries working?	13:49
RST38h	trying	13:49
RST38h	host-cpp runs	13:50
RST38h	host-rcc does not	13:50
RST38h	host-qmake does not	13:50
kimju	run on host, as root: /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core restart	13:50
RST38h	All /usr/bin/host-* tools fail to run	13:50
RST38h	aha	13:50
RST38h	runs now! thanks, what was it?	13:51
kimju	that restarted the sb emulation processes etc..	13:52
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer, what is the filesystem point for the compass again?	14:57
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lbt	do we have any official Debian Developers (or MOTU (or similar)) around who can mentor (not do) getting some fundamental packages into Surrounds:Testing (like debhelper and friends)	15:12
lbt	eg M4rtinK2 is having issues with dependencies whilst preparing debhelper and dpkg-dev	15:12
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RST38h	Ok. QML time now, I guess	15:21
RST38h	Stskeeps: still here?	15:21
Stskeeps	no	15:23
* Stskeeps has to go		15:23
RST38h	Stskeeps: wait wait short question	15:29
RST38h	Stskeeps: /usr or /opt ? Where do I install on N950 to stay kosher?	15:30
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mikhas	If you install to N950 then at least device stays kosher.	15:36
mikhas	=p	15:36
mikhas	RST38h, no optification on N950 AFAIK	15:36
SpeedEvil	Is / on emmc?	15:39
*** leinir_ is now known as leinir		15:45
RST38h	Still, need to know what the preferred install point is	15:46
thp	SpeedEvil: / is ~ 3.9 GB here (N950)	15:46
thp	RST38h: /opt/<appname>/ i think for 3rd party apps on meego	15:47
thp	RST38h: although everything will work and there is no technical reason for optification on harmattan anymore	15:47
RST38h	thp: aha	15:47
thp	so if you already have packaging that installs into /usr/{bin/,...}, that's okay too I guess	15:48
thp	ovi store and/or appup might have different requirements, i'm not sure. but /opt/<appname>/ should make the stores happy as well	15:48
RST38h	thp: Do you by any chance know how to add stuff to the gray toolbar at the bottom of QMainWindow?	15:55
SpeedEvil	thp: I guess there is no small flash device on the n950 then?	15:57
lcuk	my n950 won't bootup :S	16:04
macmaN	lcuk: what you do	16:04
lcuk	battery went flat	16:05
lcuk	it is a clean flash with no mods	16:05
lcuk	now plugged into charger for ages nothing will happen	16:05
lcuk	when I plug charger in the led flashes for 0.1s max	16:05
lcuk	ahh bit more now	16:05
lcuk	a few times and the led is on, prolly charging now	16:06
lcuk	hmm back off again	16:07
* lcuk would pop the n900 battery at this point normally to ensure clean boot organisation		16:07
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lardman	afternoon all	16:28
lcuk	hi lardman	16:30
lardman	hey lcuk	16:30
lcuk	lardman, I implemented polyfill routine :)	16:31
lcuk	took lots of math and logic and has been bugging me for a while	16:31
lardman	like flood-fill?	16:31
lcuk	scanline polyfill	16:31
lardman	flood filling a shape with lots of sides?	16:31
lcuk	yeah	16:31
lardman	cool	16:31
lardman	I've got some docs about that for my image processing course	16:32
RST38h	If I want to install qmlviewer to the device, what package should I install?	16:32
lcuk	it looks pretty when implemented too: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110731_011052.flower.scr.png	16:32
* RST38h moos at lardman		16:32
lardman	hi RST38h	16:32
thp	RST38h: no, sorry. i just know that you can get rid of it by using showMaximized() or showFullScreen()	16:32
RST38h	thp: Yeah	16:33
thp	SpeedEvil: i'm not sure if there's a small flash device. if there is, it isn't used for the rootfs at least	16:33
RST38h	thp: But I need to create a finger-sized toolbar and would like to use the one that is already created	16:33
thp	RST38h: it's not related to QAction or something? or maybe some toolbar-related stuff?	16:33
RST38h	thp: I cannot even find a handle to it	16:33
RST38h	thp:any attempts to get menuBar,statusBar, etc fromthe QMainWindow simplycreate a tiny Qt bar	16:34
RST38h	Shit, I am completely lost :( The SB1 qmlviewer does not work inside SB1. I cannot find a qmlviewer package to install on N950. And if I simply copy a binary, aegis will prevent it from working.	16:41
RST38h	So, HOW THE HELL am I supposed to "get started on QtQuick components"????	16:42
RST38h	+ I am unable to add a finger-friendly toolbar ormenu bar without QML, as it seems	16:43
thp	RST38h: try installing a qmlviewer .deb	16:43
thp	RST38h: or use pyside :p a qmlviewer is a few lines of code. i can pastebin it somewhere if you like (the python binary is already aegis-blessed, so you can run arbitrary python scripts)	16:45
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RST38h	yes I know it is a few lines	16:46
RST38h	but I amnotgoing to go through my own writing and packaging of it	16:46
RST38h	where is the deb anyway?	16:46
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thp	hmm i'm not sure. just tried googling for it, but didn't find it	16:46
RST38h	exactly	16:46
RST38h	found it	16:49
mikhas	have you tried installing qt4-qmlviewer	16:49
hiemanshu	I wonder if the SDK on the phone is any different from the normal SDK?	16:50
* lardman has given qt quick a skip		16:50
lardman	for some reason the SDK lacks the viewer application on my laptop	16:50
mikhas	lardman, probably not using Qt 4.8	16:51
lardman	mikhas: yeah quite possibly	16:51
lardman	what comes with the N950?	16:51
hiemanshu	lardman: its an online installer, that does't work though, and the size of the file is a little different	16:52
mikhas	4.7.4	16:52
mikhas	well, the device actually has a patched Qt 4.7.4	16:52
hiemanshu	ah damn, you meant mikhas, /me facepalm	16:52
lardman	Yep, thought I was using 4.7.something	16:52
lardman	iirc you do finally get the qml viewer but only if you install the Symbian stuff too	16:53
lardman	which is slightly counter intuitive	16:53
* lardman curses plugins and symbol lookup errors		16:56
lardman	ouch, nearly burned my toe on my Dell laptop charger brick	16:59
lardman	that seems quite warm	16:59
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lardman	any ideas on what might cause a symbol lookup error in a qt plugin?	17:03
RST38h	extra extern "C"?	17:04
lardman	no extern "C"s present	17:05
RST38h	maybe there must be?	17:05
* lardman reads the plugin writing docs again		17:06
alterego	lardman: it's normal, my Dell PSU block I can use to cook bacon ..	17:06
lardman	alterego: lol, ok	17:06
alterego	They should make laptop PSUs switch mode, I wouldn't mind paying more for a more environmentally friendly option.	17:07
lardman	I'm quite impressed, just got 850Mb/s download rate on my home broadband	17:09
lardman	hmm, that must be Kb of course	17:09
alterego	Heh	17:10
alterego	I doubt you could get that down an ethernet cable ;)	17:10
lardman	yeah, talking of cooking bacon ;)	17:10
alterego	But if you have 1GB/s BB, wow :D	17:11
lardman	yeah yeah, it's been a long weekend, mother in law visiting, brain adled, etc. :p	17:12
lardman	;)	17:12
lardman	any clues how I enable sftp-server under opensuse?	17:15
SpeedEvil	alterego: They all are switched mode.	17:20
alterego	Hmm, they don't have it enabled by default?	17:20
SpeedEvil	alterego: Since maybe 15 years ago at least	17:20
alterego	SpeedEvil: mine doesn't feel like it, it weights a tonne and gets hotter than the sun.	17:20
SpeedEvil	How many watts is it?	17:21
alterego	90	17:21
SpeedEvil	A 90W linear supply transformer will weigh around a kilo	17:21
lardman	not sure re sftp, perhaps it's my firewall setup, will have to check	17:21
SpeedEvil	Maybe a little more	17:21
SpeedEvil	Then there is the heatsinks and stuff - ti's likely to end up at two	17:22
alterego	lardman: if you can ssh, it should work ..	17:22
alterego	SpeedEvil: fair point	17:22
lardman	interestingly I can ssh into the N950 but not sftp	17:22
alterego	You're right, it must be switched mode ..	17:22
alterego	I didn't think they got this hot though.	17:22
SpeedEvil	Laptop bricks get hot as they have small surface area	17:22
alterego	I guess with 90W anything is gonna heat up.	17:23
SpeedEvil	90% efficiency still means there is 10W waste heat	17:23
* lardman transfers leftover harmattan sdk files from laptop to PC to save downloading them again		17:24
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lcuk	oh cock	18:00
lcuk	pkg-config	18:00
lcuk	bash: /usr/bin/pkg-config: No such file or directory	18:00
lcuk	the file exists, is a binary but returns that whenever called	18:00
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lcuk	only occured since installing harmattan scratchbox	18:00
lcuk	any idea what is causing it?	18:01
kimju	lcuk, at host or within SB?	18:02
kimju	if within SB, try to run on host, as root: /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core restart	18:03
lcuk	kimju, it was within sb	18:16
lcuk	i reinstalled the target	18:16
lcuk	and its working again	18:16
lcuk	something in the harmattan install mucked up the fremantle sb target	18:16
lcuk	not sure what, resolved by twiddling. moved on..	18:16
timoph	lcuk: does qmake work for you in harmattan scratchbox arm target?	18:17
timoph	or does it give "no such file or directory" as it does for me	18:18
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kimju	timoph, I had such problems earlier, restarting sbox fixed those.	18:19
* timoph tries		18:19
timoph	hah. it works!	18:19
timoph	thanks	18:20
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lcuk	timoph, that was same kind of error I was getting	18:21
lcuk	but different file	18:21
lcuk	since packages created in fremantle sb appear to work on harmattan	18:21
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timoph	has anyone filed a bug about that?	18:23
lardman	hmm, trying to install harmattan sb ontop of fremantle version seems to have gone wrong	18:24
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lcuk	lardman,	18:25
lcuk	i just went into sb-menu	18:25
lcuk	and remade the target	18:25
lcuk	and it all worked again i think	18:25
lcuk	well, I am using it	18:25
lcuk	so its working lol	18:25
lardman	so using the old version of sb?	18:26
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lardman	http://pastebin.com/P5bv0xdX is what I'm getting	18:27
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lcuk	lardman, oh i never got asked about scratchbox versions	18:29
lcuk	dunno what that is, my problems were within scratchbox itself	18:29
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lardman	but did you already have Fremantle SB installed>?	18:30
lcuk	yes	18:30
lcuk	i used the harmattan gui installer thing outside sb	18:31
lardman	hmm, ok, perhaps something to do with the fact this is a 64bit os then?	18:31
lcuk	and it correctly afaik installed everything	18:31
lcuk	it was only when i tried to use the fremantle builder	18:31
lcuk	it got knickers in a twist	18:31
lardman	same here, but it's gone tits up half way through	18:31
alterego	Mine worked on 64 bit ubuntu 10.10	18:31
lardman	alterego: oh right, mine is 64bit Ubuntu 11.04 iirc	18:31
alterego	Well, I've not tried that unfortunately as 11.04 doesn't work with the N900 tethering.	18:32
lardman	I might just start from scratch	18:33
lardman	hmm, takes rather a long time to scan one of the camera images for barcodes	18:37
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* SpeedEvil passes lardman a book entitled 'Programming the DSP on the OMAP processors'		18:50
leinir	gah... how do i reference an Item in the content area of a Sheet?!	18:50
DocScrutinizer	moo	18:58
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: f = open("/dev/ak89740", "rb")	18:59
lcuk	well my n950 wont bootup	19:07
* lcuk mehs and tries something else		19:07
macmaN	i thought i heard that a few hours ago	19:07
dm8tbr	gnagnagna, device comes with python but no python-bluez	19:13
Arkenoi	how can i view dmesg on n950?	19:14
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lcuk	how do I make n950 reboot / power cycle	19:20
lardman	SpeedEvil: too late, but thanks :)	19:23
Tronic	lcuk: ssh root@localhost, reboot	19:23
Tronic	There is devel-su or some other (better) way for getting root access too.	19:24
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lcuk	Tronic, device is bricklike state	19:26
lcuk	the led will light when i insert usb	19:27
lcuk	for about 5 seconds max	19:27
dm8tbr	lcuk: hold down power for 10s	19:27
lcuk	other than that, it is a very shiny pebble	19:27
mikhas	lcuk, use flasher and disable life guards	19:27
dm8tbr	lcuk: did it deep discharge?	19:27
lcuk	with usb in?	19:27
lcuk	dm8tbr, it must have done	19:27
lcuk	mikhas, eek	19:27
* Arkenoi tried to forkbomb n950, amazingly it survived and properly killed offending processes when load became too high without affecting normal functions		19:27
mikhas	yes	19:27
dm8tbr	flasher -Owait-charging	19:27
lcuk	i ran the one click flasher on windows	19:27
dm8tbr	lcuk: get the real flasher	19:28
lcuk	dm8tbr, i will see what the win flasher says	19:28
lcuk	afaik it checks battery charge itself	19:28
lcuk	a mo	19:28
dm8tbr	let's hope it has -Owait-charging in	19:28
lcuk	(faster than finding latest linux version for this moment	19:29
lcuk	if this doesnt work i will update linux flasher	19:29
Tronic	lcuk: Oh, so your device is equivalent to http://www.mobile-t-mobile.com/uimg/iPhon-vs-Rock.jpg	19:31
dm8tbr	http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php - has the harmattan flasher AFAICS	19:32
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: sounds like kernel mismatch	19:32
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: that's what javispedro got when trying to install "custom" kernel (actually stock kernel built locally)	19:32
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DocScrutinizer	lcuk: say "thanks aegis" - blame whatever caused it - reflash	19:33
lcuk	i cannot reflash since it is not registering anything over usb	19:34
SpeedEvil	Eeek.	19:34
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: you may need to use the --charge (OWTTE) parameter found in new flasher, as I gather you might have an empty battery and that's prohibitive for flashing, and a device that needs reflash won't charge, evidently	19:34
lcuk	with the 4 screws on the back, how does the coverplate come off	19:34
* lcuk repeats		19:35
lcuk	"i cannot reflash since it is not registering anything over usb"	19:35
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: (cover) see migrating-wikipage	19:35
lcuk	windows and linux are not seeing any action	19:35
DocScrutinizer	though it's shorter I share description that URL: pry off with fingernails starting at speaker in both directions. Will click and come off	19:36
DocScrutinizer	once it popped open at speaker and, "hinge" around USB and off	19:37
DocScrutinizer	It's really easy when you start at speaker and managed to pry your fingernail between the body and cover	19:38
* lcuk offers it to tracy		19:38
DocScrutinizer	hehe	19:38
DocScrutinizer	\o/ somebody THANKED on *#-ena packet page :-DD	19:39
lcuk	gotcha	19:40
lcuk	thanks	19:40
lcuk	ok	19:40
lcuk	the back panel is all the area	19:40
lcuk	not just the inner rectangle	19:41
lcuk	the whole cover comes off as one	19:41
DocScrutinizer	yeah, same here :-P	19:41
DocScrutinizer	Downloads: 126533 Votes: 6	19:41
DocScrutinizer	dang this rating system really panned out	19:42
DocScrutinizer	maybe a nit OT here	19:42
DocScrutinizer	maybe not, regarding we're about to crank up sth similr(?) for meego	19:43
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: back cover is a bit like CD jevelcases. It took me months until I understood you can not open them by prying open "in the middle" as that will bend the lid and make it latch even tighter to the base	19:45
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lcuk	yeah i did it	19:46
DocScrutinizer	"starting at the corner" is a good strategy for a lot of situations/problems	19:46
DocScrutinizer	jigsaw puzzles, jevelcases, N950 backcovers, err...	19:47
DocScrutinizer	some carriers :-P	19:47
DocScrutinizer	ooh - of course: opening the nasty tin cans of embedded device PCBA	19:48
DocScrutinizer	Nokia's back cover design effectively tricked me into forgetting about this general strategy and waste ~1h trying to get off the center part only	19:49
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kimju	heh. that is a bit misleading design.. I only spend few minutes before seeking out an already disaseembled unit for a clue :)	19:51
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dm8tbr	kimju: unfair advantage ;)	19:54
lcuk	DocScrutinizer,	19:55
lcuk	plugged into wallwart	19:55
lcuk	and got as far as nokia water	19:55
lcuk	so it was battery/power related	19:55
lcuk	rather than aegis fud	19:55
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	19:59
RST38h	khe khe khe	19:59
DocScrutinizer	wallwart (original with D+- short) always best bet to recover from flatbat	19:59
RST38h	What package contains MeegoTouch headers?	19:59
cpscotti	~logs	20:00
infobot	All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23harmattan/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.	20:00
SpeedEvil	lcuk: :)	20:01
RST38h	ok, found it	20:01
Tronic	you all suck and I am an idiot	20:01
Tronic	(just testing logging)	20:02
kimju	hmm.. any naming succestions for re-packaged latest meego-terminal (as the original package can not be replaced in clean way) ?	20:04
timoph	kimju: I have it as mg-terminal :)	20:04
kimju	is that already in obs?	20:04
kimju	or gitorious	20:05
timoph	it is but there I have some problems with harmattan target	20:05
* timoph shouldn't stop to think in the middle of sentence		20:06
timoph	https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=meego-terminal&project=home%3Atimoph%3Aharmattan	20:07
kimju	"committed 25 min ago" .. no wonder I didn't see it earlier :D	20:08
timoph	:)	20:08
timoph	anyway I'm pretty sure that it won't build in obs	20:09
kimju	- MApplicationService("com.nokia.meego-terminal", parent) {	20:11
kimju	+ MApplicationService("com.nokia.mg-terminal", parent) {	20:11
kimju	hmm.. should that com.nokia part be replaced too?	20:11
timoph	should but it works :)	20:11
kimju	is there some documentation about such things?	20:12
timoph	dunno	20:12
Tronic	Why cannot the original be replaced?	20:14
timoph	aegis...	20:14
Tronic	Sigh.	20:14
timoph	not coming from the same source	20:15
Tronic	That limitation is going to be a head ache.	20:15
timoph	hmmh. I wonder how c.obs signs the packages	20:16
timoph	meaning is it the same source when install from different home projects	20:17
kimju	Tronic, there are two "problems". first is that aegis won't allow replacing package installed(/available) from official source with package from other source without first forcibly uninstalling the original package. not end user friendly way.	20:18
timoph	kimju: anyway, feel free to take over the package. My motivation was just to check the latest status of it	20:18
kimju	Tronic, then there is mp-harmattan-rm680-pr package that depends on specific versions of all the core packages. foo (= x.y.z), not bar (>= x.y.z)	20:19
kimju	timoph, ok.. I've been experimenting with that locally for some time now, was thinking about pushing it to obs now too..	20:21
timoph	ok	20:21
timoph	I'll remove my version of it to avoid too many forks	20:22
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antman8969	the n950 browser is getting pretty bad, I can't even go to linkedin.com without it creashing	20:46
djszapi	port rekonq ;)	20:47
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kimju	hmmh.. is there way to get obs do automatic versioning for deb packages as we do with rpm on n900-ce?	20:47
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* lardman_ realised he has been a little silly		20:49
djszapi	kimju: I would not like that, personally.	20:50
lardman_	accidentally sending messages to the DBus system bus while watching for messages on the session bus	20:50
lardman_	doh!	20:50
hiemanshu	djszapi: rekonq is still webkit based, and writing a basic browser is easy :P	20:51
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djszapi	hiemanshu: what is wrong about porting rekonq ?	20:51
kimju	djszapi, it can be annoying in some cases, but right now I'd like to have it as an option :)	20:52
djszapi	iirc there has been some work in progress.	20:52
hiemanshu	djszapi: rekonq is still very new	20:52
djszapi	hiemanshu: but works cross-platform ?	20:52
hiemanshu	not really mature, maybe fennec would make more sense	20:53
djszapi	hiemanshu: Quite a few people use it on a daily basis.	20:54
djszapi	(also on windows)	20:54
hiemanshu	djszapi: I am not saying its bad, its just a little immature right now	20:54
hiemanshu	djszapi: also browser crashing is a very good chance its a webkit bug	20:55
* djszapi likes the stereotypes, like webkit or aegis bug, nothing else !		20:55
antman8969	I've built fennec for harmattan but can't get it installed	20:55
hiemanshu	djszapi: I like webkit, so no, I am not stereotyping it	20:56
antman8969	http://umcs.maine.edu/~naddeoa/packages/fennec/harmattan/ incase anyone wants to check it out...	20:56
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djszapi	hiemanshu: Look, I have never used fennec on any desktop platform. I have been using rekonq for a while. It is proven, seriously. The functionality is there. Making a new Ui is well ... not that much work.	20:57
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hiemanshu	djszapi: fennec is the codename of Firefox for mobile, so no, you cannot use it on the desktop, you can use firefox, but to port rekonq, you'll also need to port kdelibs and such	20:59
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djszapi	hiemanshu: what do you mean by "immature" ?	21:01
hiemanshu	djszapi: not fully developed?	21:02
djszapi	what do you mean by "not fully developed" ?	21:02
hiemanshu	sure it can do the basic stuff, but it still needs a lot of work	21:02
hiemanshu	djszapi: there are quite a few nasty bug, missing features, etc	21:03
djszapi	if you could leave you abstraction behind the walls, and tell examples, that would help a lot...	21:03
djszapi	* your	21:03
djszapi	I personally prefer webkit for these things.	21:04
RST38h	mgedmin: here?	21:05
djszapi	kimju: I do not see such an option what you asked for after browsing the page.	21:07
mikhas	hmph, seems my debian packaging foo is insufficient - cannot get the app icon to show in app grid :-(	21:07
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mikhas	any ideas what to check?	21:09
kimju	mikhas, you have the package.desktop file in the package?	21:09
kimju	and installed in correct place	21:10
kimju	like ./usr/share/applications/mg-terminal.desktop	21:11
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djszapi	no need for package.desktop	21:11
djszapi	it can be different to package as well :)	21:11
djszapi	it is more like application.desktop	21:13
asys3	anybody here can help me adding the repo http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/ - apt-get update complains about a missing Packages file. Is that repo not yet fully working?	21:13
djszapi	deb http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/ ./	21:14
mikhas	kimju, I did	21:15
mikhas	but apparently meegotouch home didnt like the old fremantle fields	21:15
RST38h	Anyone knows package name for the neq qtquick components???	21:15
RST38h	s/neq/new	21:16
mikhas	now I removed some X-OSSO stuff, and the icon showed up	21:16
mikhas	man, so much time wasted …	21:16
asys3	i did that! **** http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/./Packages.gz 404 Not Found	21:16
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mikhas	asys3, RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/harmattan-dev.list	21:18
mikhas	deb http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/ harmattan/sdk free non-free	21:18
mikhas	and have you checked that you enabled internet on the device?	21:18
asys3	yes, of course - the other repos of http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Community_device_program/Nokia/Development_repos work well	21:19
djszapi	mmm, the wiki page is buggy if mikhas's idea works :)	21:20
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* mikhas shakes fist @ meegotouch home		21:22
asys3	mikhas: the sdk repo works, thanks	21:23
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DocScrutinizer	mikhas: this seems to be /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sdktools.lst on my device	21:35
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe I added it under that name, can't remember	21:36
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: hell, I am still frightened to even do such a simple thing as ># mv /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sdktools.lst /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sdktools.list	21:40
DocScrutinizer	as I don't feel familiar with checking if any file is under aegis control	21:40
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: I am pretty sure you know I am not from the SDK team ;-)	21:41
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: I know. I'm just asking for some prodding and guidance on how to learn to deal with the issue	21:42
DocScrutinizer	I haven't managed yet to find out how to check if a file is "protected"	21:43
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DocScrutinizer	except by trying to edit/change it of course	21:53
DocScrutinizer	and that's a sickening situation when you got the mindset of a sysop	21:54
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: we will not make a tool for it, it should be plain documentation for the public.	21:55
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DocScrutinizer	I thought there is some tool for it, whether it's stat <filename>, or ls --wonderoption <filename>, or random-aegis-binary --list-tokens <filename>. I'm just wondering which tool it might be, and what exactly it looks like when a protected file gets diagnosed. I have a hard time to beleive there is NO tool at all, as you suggest by "we won't make a tool for it"	21:58
djszapi	I highly doubt we make, it is so simple.	21:59
DocScrutinizer	err sorry?	21:59
DocScrutinizer	you completely lost me	22:00
rm_you	djszapi: hey	22:02
rm_you	djszapi: does it look like PackRat is picking up the repos from the wiki now?	22:03
djszapi	rm_you: nope, it still ignores the "deb http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/ harmattan/sdk free non-free" line.	22:04
rm_you	AH	22:04
rm_you	yeah	22:04
rm_you	it doesn't fit the regex	22:04
rm_you	i DID put the regex there :P	22:04
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: simply put (as simple as I can): if I ask "is it save to do a ># mv /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sdktools.lst /etc/apt/sources.list.d/sdktools.list ?", then the answer can NOT be "try it and when aegis bricks your device then you know it wasn't safe" - there has to be a better answer that doesn't include risking to brick	22:05
djszapi	regexp is from the darkside =p	22:05
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djszapi	DocScrutinizer: but I told you it more times. Please make notes on some community page about things we are discussing next time.	22:07
DocScrutinizer	errr	22:08
DocScrutinizer	I really don't get what you are trying to tell me. Is it you don't know either and there is simply no method to work on a aegis system without permanently risking to brick it? I think I give up on getting any decent answer on this	22:09
DocScrutinizer	I don't know how to make notes about things that are or are not discussed any "next time" (of whatever) in the future. I got no crystal ball	22:11
djszapi	sigh	22:11
DocScrutinizer	and I have no idea who's "we" or what's "next time" event	22:12
rm_you	djszapi: also i think that line is wrong anyway	22:12
djszapi	rm_you: actually that worked for more people above	22:12
mikhas	djszapi, dark side you say? https://gitorious.org/miniature/miniature/blobs/encore/game/ficsside.cc#line28	22:12
rm_you	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/	22:13
rm_you	note there's "harmattan-beta" but not "harmattan-sdk" or "harmattan/sdk"	22:13
djszapi	00:18 < mikhas> deb http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/ harmattan/sdk free non-free	22:13
djszapi	00:23 < asys3> mikhas: the sdk repo works, thanks	22:13
rm_you	hrm	22:13
rm_you	OH	22:13
rm_you	yeah	22:14
rm_you	the sdk repos require auth	22:14
rm_you	which i can't do	22:14
rm_you	sorry	22:14
rm_you	not gonna show up	22:14
rm_you	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/dists/harmattan/sdk/	22:14
rm_you	exists but requires auth	22:14
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: http://paste.kde.org/104215/ -> I told you twice in this small conversation	22:15
djszapi	you should seriously document what me and others are saying, if it is not trivial..	22:15
djszapi	I thought I do not need to mention it.	22:15
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: this is gibberish to me - unless you say I mustn't edit any file in /etc/	22:16
vandenoever	i seems one needs to make a youtube video to be noticed by meegoexperts ...	22:16
DocScrutinizer	which obviously isn't the case and also would be really bad	22:17
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: I told you more times what is not integrity protected in the subfolders as well	22:17
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djszapi	what is the third-party interface for upstart scripts and so forth.	22:17
DocScrutinizer	err uhuh, so I mustn't create /etc/myrandomdir	22:18
djszapi	please document these things otherwise it will be asked again and again and again, if it is not trivial.	22:18
DocScrutinizer	who? ME?	22:18
DocScrutinizer	I got NFC about those things! how could I possibly document anything else than my lack of knowledge about it?	22:19
djszapi	Look, there are three ways of handling the missing documentation, if any: 1) Report it to the SDK team, again /not/ me. 2) You keep documenting what people are experiencing here on a community page 3) Keep complaining.	22:20
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: see, if you would explain how you attained your knowledge about those facts, I could learn and help myself out of any questionable sitation regarding aegis file protection. Stating "/etc/ is protected" doesn't help much	22:21
DocScrutinizer	after learning that, I'm happily going to document it on wiki	22:22
djszapi	forget it..	22:22
mikhas	#harmattan becoming another #maemo :-)	22:22
DocScrutinizer	unbearable	22:23
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DocScrutinizer	I'm going to eventually document on wiki: "aegis is protecting arbitrary files from editing/deleting/renaming/chmod. You have no means to know if a file is protected that way. Touching such a file will possibly result in bricking and need for a reflash of complete system. That's the situation and you either deal with it or forget about harmattan, as nobody is going to do anything about it to fix this permanent threat"	22:28
DocScrutinizer	or maybe NOT	22:28
DocScrutinizer	KTNXBAI	22:28
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DocScrutinizer	I got other means to get my thrills, than dealing with the question "will it brick?"	22:30
alterego	Hrm, I'd really like a good app to create timetables.	22:47
alterego	I think I'm gonna sketch one out to do in qml.	22:47
djszapi	I would like to have an offline dictionary, like qmlstardict :p	22:48
alterego	Heh	22:48
alterego	I suppose I'd just like a more timetable friendly UI for the calendar.	22:49
djszapi	or kde pim :)	22:49
alterego	So a seperate app that integrates into the calendar would be cool.	22:49
* dm8tbr wonders how much 'fun' he is into if he tries to package/build python-bluez		22:51
alterego	I don't really care about kde pim :P	22:51
kimju	dm8tbr, you could forget the python and create bindings for some sane language, perl for example..	22:59
dm8tbr	kimju: I have some ready python code I'd like to try for proof of concept	23:00
kimju	dm8tbr, oh, the mistake has been made earlier.. I see.. :)	23:01
dm8tbr	http://code.google.com/p/adqmisc/source/browse/trunk/liveview/LiveViewServer.py	23:01
dm8tbr	yes	23:01
dm8tbr	I usually don't go near python	23:01
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dm8tbr	if someone shows me how I bind to a bluetooth socket thingy with type SPP in QML or Qt I might be able to verify it too	23:02
dm8tbr	but I would like to start with something that is known to be working before I put work into it	23:03
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rm_you	excuse me for possibly missing some stuff while i got disconnected, but	23:21
rm_you	<kimju> dm8tbr, you could forget the python and create bindings for some sane language, perl for example..	23:21
rm_you	since when is Perl the sane language compared to Python? >_>	23:22
RST38h	Ah! Perl vs Python!	23:23
RST38h	TO THE DEATH!!!	23:23
rm_you	:P	23:23
alterego	That is a battle that will never end.	23:23
alterego	If PERL could die it would have done it a long time ago ..	23:23
rm_you	lol, well kimju was obviously trolling, can't help but troll back :P	23:23
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kimju	oh, I was, was I? ;)	23:24
rm_you	trololololo	23:24
alterego	Besides, I'd prefer something a bit nicer than Python, tbh	23:24
kimju	I actually do like perl and dislike python, but will write code on either if I have to..	23:25
rm_you	maintaining perl apps (including PackRat) has nearly driven me to the brink of insanity	23:26
rm_you	which is why your note of Perl as a "sane" language was particularly entertaining :P	23:26
alterego	Meh, PERL is pretty messy, and Python just isn't built right	23:27
RST38h	PackRat is only partially Perl	23:27
rm_you	yeah just the crawler	23:27
kimju	all programming languages suck.	23:27
rm_you	the php i can handle	23:27
RST38h	Itis mostly PHP though, and a lot of people hate PHP	23:27
alterego	PHP is sh*t too :D	23:27
rm_you	RST38h: did you write part of packrat?	23:27
rm_you	wait, do i have a name disconnect here	23:28
RST38h	for reasons I fail to understand, ranging from "php is messy"to "php is russian conspiracy"	23:28
rm_you	I thought FMS wrote it	23:28
* RST38h looks at rm_you incredulously		23:28
rm_you	are you FMS?!	23:28
RST38h	And I am...?	23:28
rm_you	i never made that connection :P	23:28
rm_you	i remember meeting you at CBase i think	23:29
RST38h	even after I gave you the source code on irc and asked to put it to a good server? =)	23:29
RST38h	Yep	23:29
rm_you	lol well, that was a long time ago	23:29
kimju	RST38h, my take is that php is hated because there has been too many "my first program"-type programs written in php released into the wild.. and then sysadmins have to Deal With Them..	23:29
rm_you	RST38h: any interest in fixing it to work with harmattan now?	23:30
rm_you	you'd cry if you saw the crawler in its current state	23:30
rm_you	the hacks i had to do to get it working...	23:30
RST38h	rm_you: see? you broke it! =)	23:32
RST38h	rm_you: yes, I can try fixing it up	23:32
rm_you	lol	23:32
RST38h	rm_you: email me the current source code	23:32
rm_you	you prolly just want to ignore my changes and start from your clean source honestly	23:32
RST38h	rm_you: can't say right nnow - I usually keep the code if it is not too badly broken	23:33
rm_you	like i seriously just disabled 75% of the generic stuff	23:33
Tronic	Meanwhile the REAL CODERS are fighting Perl (Ruby) vs. Python, all the web services get implemented in PHP.	23:33
mikhas	alterego, you sound as if you want Vala.	23:33
rm_you	and hardcoded things here and there in several functions	23:33
rm_you	I like PHP and Python about equally :P	23:33
alterego	mikhas: Heh, Vala isn't dynamic enough for me :P	23:33
rm_you	I was tempted to rewrite the whole crawler thing in python	23:34
mikhas	aww	23:34
alterego	If we're talking about dynamic languages.	23:34
mikhas	alterego, tried Smalltalk?	23:34
mikhas	very clean because its syntax is so minimal	23:34
alterego	I have tried Smalltalk, I do like it	23:34
mikhas	hooray!	23:34
Tronic	Speaking of webapps, you can get most done in least time with C++ but it lacks the rapid turnaround.	23:34
alterego	I also mostly like Ruby, which I tend to use when I need to do certain things.	23:34
mikhas	and instead of this Python "Everything is an object" lie, everything but variables are objects in ST :-)	23:35
alterego	mikhas: sure, like Ruby :)	23:35
alterego	It's the pure object orientation I like about small talk and ruby	23:35
mikhas	yeah	23:35
alterego	Pythons' idea of OO is somewhat retarded.	23:36
mikhas	:-D	23:36
mikhas	it just doesnt feel right, does it?	23:36
rm_you	I wrote a few things in both ruby and python to compare the languages a while back, and i couldn't even tell the difference between the two languages besides minor differences in the keywords / punctuation	23:36
alterego	No, not really. Though I don't mind using it, it's just not OO to me.	23:36
mikhas	rm_you, the fun comes with advanced OO techniques	23:37
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alterego	rm_you: then you didn't really get into the fun stuff ;)	23:37
rm_you	lol	23:37
rm_you	did basic inheritence and polymorphism...	23:37
alterego	Yeah, the cool stuff is metaprogramming, mixins, introspection and all that jazz :)	23:37
mikhas	eww, he said inheritance!	23:38
rm_you	introspection seems cool	23:38
mikhas	alterego, traits	23:38
rm_you	never implemented it	23:38
alterego	mikhas: duck typing :P	23:38
mikhas	or a DB layer that creates methods on the fly	23:38
rm_you	factory methods?	23:38
alterego	I use ActiveRecord quite a bit in Ruby, it's a really good ORM	23:38
alterego	Very fun	23:38
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mikhas	(depending on the messages the object receives, it persists and creates the DB structure for you in the back)	23:39
alterego	mikhas: have you used the ActiveRDF stuff?	23:39
mikhas	nope	23:39
alterego	I did some really fun stuff with Ruby and RDF ..	23:40
alterego	I settled on Redland though in the end.	23:40
rm_you	RST38h: lol something about your website makes my monitor generate horrible noises	23:40
rm_you	the colors	23:40
alterego	Heh	23:40
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alterego	Anyhow, time to go :) bbl	23:41
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