IRC log of #harmattan for Sunday, 2011-07-24

DocScrutinizerlbt_away: finally it is Nokia who want *us* to do sth *they* profit from - they want us to help them sell phones. So they damn better do all for making this a pleasant ride00:00
rm_you-mcpu=cortex-a8 -mfpu=neon -mfloat-abi=softfp00:00
rm_youis that still accurate for n950?00:00
dm8tbrwasn't it hardfloat now? (haven't compiled anything yet)00:01
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DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: the fun bit is .deb for N900 install and run :-o00:06
DocScrutinizerdespite some always claimed this was *impossible*00:07
DocScrutinizerseems there's a bug or patch in elf loader that allows to load softfp as well as hardfp00:08
DocScrutinizeror harmattan *IS* softfp, and thus not at al compatible with meegoCE00:09
dm8tbrwell as long as there isn't any floats being passed around it will just work00:09
dm8tbre.g. if the binary is static it will work just fine00:10
DocScrutinizerthat's what I thought as well, but I've been told so many times it can't I almost believed it00:10
dm8tbrif the binary makes only non-float calls to libraries, everything should be fine00:11
dm8tbrit's only if it passes floats it will likely blow up00:11
lcukdm8tbr, DocScrutinizer - the libliqbase library and then apps appear to work00:16
lcukand I am sure that somewhere I use floating point numbers00:16
lcukthe same was also occuring for maemo4/5 transition00:18
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Damion3have you tried simply running the n900 mplayer?00:43
DocScrutinizerhow would I find out about soft/hardFP property of an ELF?00:59
DocScrutinizerfile(1) seems not to show this00:59
DocScrutinizerobj* ?01:00
Clintit's not an ELF property01:01
rm_youDamion3: no, haven't tried?01:03
dm8tbr that might help01:04
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rm_youso lets see, what do i run in scratchbox to build packages? i know it's dpkg-buildpackage, but i feel like there was something involving fakeroot and some other args i needed to pass01:08
* GeneralAntilles facepalms.01:09
GeneralAntillesCan't get hex codes out of DigitalColor Meter anymore.01:09
GeneralAntillesDie, Apple, die.01:09
rm_youi mean you can just convert them in another app, but i guess that's annoying01:10
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GeneralAntillesYeah, previously I could hover over a pixel and get the hex value in the clipboard.01:11
GeneralAntillesSomebody had to work to remove this feature.01:11
Damion3rm_you: almost everything I've tried has worked01:20
rm_youso, what01:24
rm_youjust add the repo for fremantle and install mplayer?01:24
lcukGeneralAntilles, retina screens are not compatible with single pixels :P01:24
GeneralAntilleslcuk, I wish my desktop had that pixel density.01:24
* lcuk nods01:25
lcukme too01:25
DocScrutinizer  native less binary vs alien N900 working find binary01:27
GeneralAntillesIf they could just double it.01:27
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: It's depressing.01:27
GeneralAntilles3840 x 216001:27
GeneralAntillesThen just pixel-double bitmaps when needed.01:27
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: I want ~150dpi or so - 200 would be ideal 27" or so 4:3 (or 1:1) display01:28
DocScrutinizeresp remarkable is the missing >>Tag_ABI_VFP_args: VFP registers<< in fremantle's find01:31
DocScrutinizerplease note I have not the faintest idea about all that FP stuff, just stating the obvious01:33
Damion3rm_you: that might clash with newer libs for video.  I'd use develsh so you can execute stuff and scp mplayer and libs to user's homedir.  the stuff I've run so far has just been the odd binary scped like iwconfig, qemu and rsync01:37
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rm_youdoes maemo-optify exist?01:40
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: thanks01:41
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DocScrutinizerrm_you: for harmattan? doesn't make any sense you'd think01:45
DocScrutinizerrm_you: nevertheless optified .deb from fremantle install to /opt, creating it when needed01:47
rm_youerr k01:50
rm_youso i can remove the line in this debian config that runs maemo-optify?01:50
rm_youbbl dinner01:51
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GeneralAntillesWho's going to remind me not to forget MWKN tomorrow?02:27
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: this irc client lacks proper scripting capabilities :-) I could try to set up a script with /timer in xchat :-)02:34
GeneralAntillesI've set an alarm on both phones, but I still worry.02:34
GeneralAntillesI've forgotten more than once even with Jaffa reminding me.02:34
DocScrutinizerI'll try to recall to ask you about it in ~18h02:35
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rm_yougot mplayer compiled and installed04:51
rm_youit seems to be working04:51
rm_youodd bugs when i launch it from the terminal... but i can make a guio04:51
rm_you*gui to fix that04:51
rm_youit is using 60% or so CPU but seems to be playing better than the builtin T_T04:51
Termanarm_you, I don't know when you asked it, but it's sitting unanswered in my log - MWKN = Maemo Weekly News = mwkn.net04:52
lynxissomebody else here, who trying to press out some sound from fm-transceiver ?04:54
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GAN900rm_you, what?!04:56
GAN900You don't read
GAN900I've wasted my life.04:56
rm_youtrying to figure out how to benchmark "video playback smoothness" so i can accurately compare between mplayer and video-suite04:57
TermanaGAN900, lol04:57
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SpeedEvilrm_you: Does playback over composite work?04:59
SpeedEvilno - the video out04:59
rm_youhave not tried04:59
rm_youdevice keeps going to sleep while mplayer plays video tho :(05:01
rm_youok so05:01
rm_youlesson: don't make the device downscale05:02
rm_youit's a bad idea05:02
rm_youthis is slightly concerning:05:06
rm_you[AO OSS] audio_setup: Can't open audio device /dev/dsp: No such file or directory05:06
rm_youbut i think it's ok, since it then goes on to use Pulse05:06
rm_you23% CPU playing this video...05:07
rm_youneed to compare playback quality to video-suite (still haven't decided HOW)05:07
rm_youvideo suite seems to be using ... umm.... the same CPU, across qmafw and pulseaudio :/05:08
rm_you~22% on qmafw, and 15% on pulseaudio05:09
rm_you~30% on mplayer, and 9% on pulseaudio05:10
rm_yousoooooo basically the exact same usage (mplayer does more with the audio before passing it to pulse? no idea)05:11
rm_youthe package is here if anyone else wants to try:05:11
rm_youdid everyone go to sleep?05:11
rm_youSpeedEvil: I'll test playback over composite now -- it works with video-suite, i assume, right?05:12
rm_youSpeedEvil: just tested, both mplayer and video-suite seem to play back exactly the same over composite05:20
DocScrutinizerI'm interested in the audio playback part05:22
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DocScrutinizerI spent some 2 or 3 hours yesterday to scrutiize each available executable on my mission to find what's the new play-sound command on harmattan now. Did only find aplay05:23
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rm_youDocScrutinizer: well you can install it, it works fine05:26
rm_youhrm, wish someone here could tell me what I need to do to switch from old Qt stuff in Python to the new Qt lib (Qtside?)05:26
rm_youerr PySide05:26
epageWhat do you mean by make the switch?05:27
rm_youlike, i have a python app that uses the old PyQt05:28
rm_youi need to reconfigure it to use pyside05:28
rm_youis it as easy as switching the imports?05:28
rm_youor do i have to do more conversion05:28
epageIts not too bad, I can collect up my notes05:28
epageIt depends, there is PyQt's v2 APIs that PySide is modeled after but you had to opt-in to them.05:29
DocScrutinizerrm_you: install what? play-sound?05:29
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epageI hacked up a python module to make it easy to switch back and forth between PySide and PyQt (especially for platforms with only one or the other)05:29
rm_youit seems easy as this is a simple program05:30
rm_youso lets see if just changing lib names will work05:30
epagepyqtSignal -> Signal05:30
epagepyqtSlot -> Slot05:30
epagepyqtProperty -> Property05:30
epagePlus QString and QVariant were abolished05:30
DocScrutinizerno more QStrings? AAAWWW!05:31
rm_you __pyqtSignals__ = ( "shutdown" )05:31
rm_youwhat happens to that05:31
epageYou can get the string/variant change in PyQt by doing the following before any of your pyqt imports05:32
epageimport sip05:32
epagesip.setapi('QString', 2)05:32
epagesip.setapi('QVariant', 2)05:32
epageI've never used __pyqtySignals__ before05:32
DocScrutinizerthe thing that brought most fun to your life every day. Just binned :-S05:32
epageI always declare the signals as class member variables05:32
epageFor example:05:32
epagenew style signal/slot API05:33
rm_youerr so05:33
epagethat old one I think has been discouraged for a while05:33
rm_youself.shutdown.emit() ?05:33
DocScrutinizernow that sounds weird05:33
epageIt sounds natural in python05:33
* DocScrutinizer should shut up05:33
epageAlso PySide requirs you to be strict about your chaining to super when calling __init__05:34
rm_youDepends: python2.5, python2.5-qt4-dbus, python2.5-qt4-gui, python2.5-qt4-webkit, python2.5-qt4-network, python2.5-gobject05:34
rm_youwhat do i do with this line05:34
rm_youdo i not NEED to depend on any of this anymore?05:34
rm_youthe QT bits05:34
epageMy deps went from05:35
epagepython2.5-qt4-core, python2.5-qt4-gui, python2.5-qt4-maemo505:35
epagepython-pyside.qtgui, python-pyside.qtcore, python-pyside.qtmaemo505:35
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rm_youand i guess 2.605:35
rm_youinstead of 2.505:35
epageI stopped specifying the python version05:36
epagepackages provide both names05:36
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rm_youDepends: python2.5, python2.5-qt4-dbus, python2.5-qt4-gui, python2.5-qt4-webkit, python2.5-qt4-network, python2.5-gobject05:38
rm_youDepends: python, python-dbus, python-pyside.qtgui, python-pyside.qtwebkit, python-pyside.qtnetwork, python-gobject05:38
rm_youi think that works05:38
epageyour dbus one looks off05:39
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rm_youi did:05:39
rm_youapt-cache search python05:39
rm_youon the device05:39
rm_youapt-cache search python-pyside05:39
rm_youand dbus isn't in the list05:39
rm_youbut there is a python-dbus...05:40
epagethat is probably gobject based05:40
rm_youattempting to install it05:40
rm_youwe'll see if it runs05:40
rm_youworst case, aegis kills my device :P05:40
rm_youso what do i have to do to get an icon to show up05:41
rm_youapparently the old .desktop doesn't work05:41
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TSCHAKeeeis it possible for GridView items to have different row or column spans?05:43
epage.desktop files changed locations05:43
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TSCHAKeeeoh flow, nevermind05:44
rm_youepage: know where they went?05:46
rm_youalso, is there a new equivilent to "/proc/component_version" to get device ID?05:47
epagestandard desktop location05:47
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rm_youTypeError: PySide.QtGui.QWidget isn't a direct base class of Panda05:53
rm_youah Panda is defined here...05:53
rm_youclass Panda(QtGui.QMainWindow):05:54
rm_youso somehow that doesn't work the same way05:54
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rm_youQtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)05:54
rm_youthat's what you were talking about isn't it05:54
rm_youinit is more strict about super calls05:54
epageYup, that is bad code, PyQt should have never allowed it05:54
epageIts an easy change05:55
rm_youmind telling me what it is? :P05:56
* rm_you hopes you're already typing05:56
* rm_you doesn't actually see what's wrong with this05:56
epageQtGui.QMainWindow.__init__(self, parent) instead05:57
* DocScrutinizer ponders if such editing couldn't get automatized05:57
epageImagine the code was pure-python rather than calling into PySide05:57
DocScrutinizerdidn't really pan out for qt3->qt4, but maybe this one is simpler05:57
epageIf C inherits from B inherits from A05:58
epageIf C calls A.__init__(self) then B's __init__ is never called and never sets up its member variables05:58
rm_youDocScrutinizer: i think possibly05:59
rm_youi did it all with SED05:59
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DocScrutinizeryou know I should hate harmattan, if only for still using messybox - your mentioning sed just made me recall my last experience with messybox sed not supporting the carefully crafted minimally more complex than bare basics editing commands06:03
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rm_youwonder what the lib is now06:05
DocScrutinizermeanwhile I think there's not one single command in busybox that's *not* broken and missing capabilities of the original06:06
rm_youdo we not use libmafw now?06:06
* DocScrutinizer is no friend of the whole mafw concept06:10
DocScrutinizermafw is to blame for the annoyance that we got not a single gapfree mp3player on fremantle06:11
rm_youhow do I get all the symbols available in a lib06:12
rm_youself.__mafw = ctypes.CDLL("")06:14
rm_youregistry_p = self.__mafw.mafw_registry_get_instance()06:14
rm_youthat explodes06:14
rm_youobviously not ABI compatible06:15
rm_yousooo i need to see what functions the new one DOES provide06:15
GAN900Strange newbish question for you: What's involved with porting a Qt application to Components?06:22
GAN900Or less specifically, is that a feasible approach to anything?06:22
epageIf you have a good view/model separation it'll work well06:24
epageI'll be porting or rewriting all of my applications to use QML from QWidget and GTK06:25
rm_youanyone know how to get at MAFW from python?06:26
GAN900epage, how's it stack up against GTK -> Hildon?06:31
epageHildon was modifications or additions to GTK, QML is completely  different06:31
epageI'm still learning it.  it has some rough spots when first learning but fixes most of the annoyances I had with QWidget06:32
epageI'm heading off though, goodnight06:32
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rm_youso close07:56
rm_youneed to get MAFW working07:56
hiemanshugah, how to import 700 .vcf files to the contacts app?07:59
antman8969you could import them into your n900 and then use bluetooth to get them into the n950 :)08:08
hiemanshuwell, the n900 has them in sync with my computer (storing them as .vcf files)08:09
antman8969theres a feature in the n950 that connects to your n900 and imports with bluetooth08:10
antman8969but idk why they don't have an option to import files directly08:10
antman8969but whatever08:10
hiemanshuwell I used the instructions posted by Jaffa, worked just fine08:15
antman8969rm_you, did you get the obs working at all?08:33
rm_youno, refocused08:33
rm_yougot mplayer to build finally anyway08:34
antman8969on scratchbox?08:34
antman8969got it to install on device too?08:34
rm_youit works08:34
antman8969you should host the deb somewhere08:35
antman8969that works08:35
rm_youhopefully will have working Pandora client soon08:39
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rm_youthis would be so much easier if i could just modify the python code on the device without packaging/reinstalling a deb every time08:44
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rm_youno volume control yet but fuck it08:48
rm_youantman8969: you use pandora?08:51
rm_youneed a tester08:51
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tommaachipa, what should be the difference with harmattan-meego-arm and harmattan-nokia-meego sysroots in Madde ?09:19
tommaother has support for boostable config, other has headers for shareuiinterface but no lib, other has lib for it but no headers...09:24
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antman8969sry was afk09:25
antman8969you got it built?09:26
mtd_hi guys, I've just got my N950 and been reading some interesting backlog of this channel, and I was wondering if there was a wiki site or place to collect tips about how to install bash and other useful hacking tools...?09:26
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* mtd so far has found
antman8969lol thers a lot to say. Without having to say everything... you should learn about the Meego OBS build service, and
antman8969is the libs ppl have built so far09:29
antman8969you know how to get root access?09:29
mtdantman8969: thanks for the OBS tip09:30
mtdantman8969: just ran devel-su to change the root password :)09:31
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mtdantman8969: do you know if anyone has documented their workflow / development process on the N950 so I can learn about it?09:32
mtdantman8969: ISTR jabba doing it, will have to find the link.09:32
antman8969I know I havn't been.... Just been in the IRC the entire time09:32
antman8969if you run into anything feel free to ask of course09:32
mtdantman8969: heh ok, will lurk here (always a good strategy)09:33
mtdantman8969: thanks09:33
antman8969you should expect trouble with dealing with libraries, aegis and obs09:33
mtdantman8969: good to know -- will read up on them09:33
* mtd can't browse pages from N950 because "SSL handshake failed"?!09:35
antman8969lol hmm09:36
mtderr, log in, sorry09:36
mtdbrosing is ok, but of course I'd like to be able to eidt pages form the n950...09:36
mtdwill see what I can do09:36
* mtd bet it's's GoDaddy CA09:37
antman8969was there something in specific that you were trying to find otuj?09:37
mtdis there a way to run apps from the command line so one can see stderr spew?09:37
mtdantman8969: nope, just saving the migrating from n900 -> n950 page so I could browse it while I head out09:38
antman8969a qt app?09:38
antman8969out of curiosity09:38
mtdantman8969: in general; what got me thinking about it was the browser09:38
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mtdantman8969: its error message was not helpful09:38
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antman8969well just like anythingelse really09:39
antman8969just the path to the binary should do09:39
antman8969assuming you are user, not root09:39
antman8969like /opt/app/bin/app09:39
mtdantman8969: ah, ok, nothing like N900 or anything09:39
antman8969well the was only if you needed the theme info and you were root09:40
antman8969there is an invoker09:40
mtdantman8969: oh, I didn't know that...thanks.09:40
antman8969let me get you the invoker link09:40
mtdantman8969: ah ok, that I can google :)09:40
mtdantman8969: oh sure, link would be extra nice :)09:40
antman8969harmattan likes to launch apps using the invoker09:41
antman8969loads faster09:41
antman8969of course, you don't HAVE to09:41
antman8969and if you do then the only place your exec will work is harmattan lol09:41
antman8969not sure if meego uses the invoker09:41
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mtdantman8969: hehe ok09:42
antman8969rm_you gj with mplayer... uplaoding pandora?09:42
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mtdantman8969: I'll root around in the fs for a while, then hopefully can ask better questions (I have nothing in /opt, for example)09:42
mtdantman8969: thanks again09:43
antman8969np, I think the best way to learn is to just start developing09:43
antman8969solve problems as you run into them09:43
antman8969not tyring to pre solve all problems lol09:44
antman8969the goal is to produce applications imo09:44
mtdantman8969: yup - though I find messing with the device is a good way to find out interesting corners09:46
mtdantman8969: point taken about apps though09:46
mtdantman8969: should be fun09:47
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hiemanshuantman8969: AFAIK meego-ce uses invoker too10:06
antman8969do you know if it uses it in a different way at all?10:08
antman8969 i was trying to build my harmattan app for meego 1.2 and it could not find MApplicationWindow.h10:09
antman8969which is what harmattan was using10:09
antman8969or maybe mdeclarativecache10:09
antman8969either way, coudln't find the right header on meego10:09
antman8969rm_you harmattan works great, using over wifi right now10:14
antman8969n950 speakers are kinda crappy10:14
hiemanshuantman8969: you need libmeegotouch and such installed for that10:22
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hiemanshuantman8969: ^10:23
antman8969wouldn't the meego targets on obs have that installed?10:23
hiemanshuyou might have to include it in build required10:24
infobothiemanshu meant: you might have to incluse it in build required10:24
antman8969did lol, in the spec file as pckgconfig(QtDeclarative)10:24
hiemanshuerrr, lol10:24
antman8969I assumed thats where it would be10:24
antman8969lol @ infobot10:25
antman8969#include <MDeclarativeCache>10:28
antman8969thats the class that this nokia tutorial recommends10:29
antman8969looking for that now.. maybe its just a convenience class10:29
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rm_yougot mplayer and pyRadio (pandora client) compiled for Harmattan now12:06
rm_youwoot :P12:06
rm_youpyRadio is bugged right now, it doesn't automatically advance to the next track -- i know exactly why, just haven't gotten to fixing that part yet. tomorrow.12:07
rm_youfor now you can always just advance it manually :P12:07
dm8tbrstuff is on COBS?12:16
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rm_youmine is in my own repo :/12:35
rm_youcan't get OBS to work right12:35
rm_youjust using SB right now12:35
Damion3rm_you: you build mplayer to use the hw assisting libs of the n950 ?12:35
rm_youno, can't12:35
rm_youbut it runs about as well anyway12:35
rm_youneeded mplayer to get pyRadio working12:36
Damion3from what it shows cpuwise?12:36
rm_youi did comparisons earlier but it seemed like12:36
Damion3need a battery load test12:36
rm_youvideo-suite (builtin) was ~20 CPU and pulse-audio was ~15 CPU12:36
rm_youmplayer was ~30% CPU and pulse-audio was ~9% CPU12:37
rm_youso slightly more total12:37
Damion3n the same video?12:37
rm_youmplayer handles the audio better somehow12:37
rm_youbut the video worse (no hardware)12:37
rm_youthat was my conclusion12:37
rm_youi would love someone to test that could do better data collection12:38
Damion3it's odd it's only 10%12:38
Damion3almost like the video you picked wasn't using accel anyway12:38
Damion310% difference that is12:38
rm_youi tested on other videos12:39
rm_youbut most of my other videos get serious lag on both12:39
rm_youso i didn't really consider those valid tests12:39
Damion3so with your mplayer the n950 can how play significantly more formats that before12:39
Damion3as for just copying binaries over to test, you can use develsh12:40
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rm_youok i lied, i am fixing the bug in pyRadio today12:44
rm_youi just realized how this works :P12:44
rm_youi had to write a new backend for it12:44
rm_youusing mplayer12:44
rm_yousince MAFW is &*#@^ed12:44
rm_youi will go fix MAFW later12:45
rm_youonce someone figures out WTF12:45
rm_youand maybe makes a python lib for it12:45
rm_youanyway if you want to test12:46
rm_youpandora requires mplayer12:46
TronicThe telephone app only displays black. Is anyone else seeing this bug?12:48
TronicReboot fixed it the first time it happened but now it is broken again.12:49
TronicKind of annoying because you cannot hangup or do anything else. Even after the app is closed the call won't terminate.12:52
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Damion3sounds like the proximity detection is wrong13:01
Damion3earwax gunk over the sensor?13:02
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MohammadAG<rm_you> i will go fix MAFW later13:05
MohammadAGit's closed in harmattan13:05
rm_youit can be closed13:05
MohammadAGit is13:05
rm_youi can still see the symbols it provides and hook them with python-ctypes :P13:05
rm_youit being closed just makes it more guesswork13:06
MohammadAGyou can use fremantle's python bindings13:06
rm_youcompletely rewritten lib13:06
MohammadAGsame DBus APIs13:06
rm_youdidn't use DBUS?13:06
MohammadAGmafw? always did13:06
rm_youthis one hooked with ctypes13:06
MohammadAGthen port libmafw13:06
MohammadAGit's just a dbus wrapper13:07
MohammadAGlibmafw0 is a C wrapper API13:07
MohammadAGin the end, it calls DBus13:07
MohammadAGMafwGstRenderer is on Harmattan, I guess it's slightly improved13:08
rm_youwhere's the mafw source?13:08
MohammadAGfremantle? apt-get source, harmattan? Nokia13:09
Damion3does anyone else find the wifi flakey?  I have multiple AP with same SSIDs/PSK as my house has many walls.  When it roams over, only small packets continue to work but browsing breaks and ssh hangs after a moment unless I detach and reattach.13:09
MohammadAGI'd guess libmafw0 should build fine on Harmattan's SDK13:09
rm_youkk trying it13:10
Damion3it's definitely accocating to the new/near AP13:10
TronicDamion3: No dirt on the sensor but maybe it misses an event. I'll try playing with the sensor the next time that happens.13:10
MohammadAGI hope my N950 ships tomorrow :/13:11
Damion3Tronic: does using the power button turn the screen on?13:11
rm_youerr how do i get root in scratchbox13:12
TronicTHe screen is on, only the app is black.13:12
TronicI can taskswitch etc. normally.13:12
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MohammadAGrm_you, fakeroot13:13
MohammadAGfakeroot dpkg-buildpackage -b13:13
rm_youumm yes13:13
rm_youbut i need ACTUAL root13:13
rm_younot for building packages13:13
Damion3oh, that's not proximity, as that turns off the screen completely13:13
MohammadAGyou don't then :P13:13
rm_youtrying to apt-get install something13:14
rm_youSetting up xml-core (0.13+maemo11+0m6) ...13:14
MohammadAGwhy do you need actual root?13:14
rm_you /scratchbox/tools/bin/chown: changing ownership of `/usr/local/share/xml/misc': Operation not permitted13:14
MohammadAGused fakeroot?13:14
rm_youno? why would fakeroot help here?13:14
MohammadAGfakeroot apt-get install xml-core13:14
rm_youwow srsly?!13:15
rm_youwhy would fakeroot help13:15
rm_youit does13:15
rm_youbut WHY13:15
rm_youit's not a "pretend" operation13:15
rm_youit's a real operation13:15
MohammadAGold versions of scratchbox didn't need it13:16
MohammadAGyou could just apt-get install something13:16
MohammadAGHathor(?) needs fakeroot13:16
griIs there a command which lets me exeute something in scratchbox from outside? I remember "sb <command>" from somewhere, but it does not exist13:17
rm_youwell anyway, looks good except it's dying on some weird error now13:17
MohammadAGgri, that would be madde13:18
rm_youautoreconf: automake failed with exit status: 113:18
MohammadAGI doubt scratchbox has something that does the same13:18
MohammadAGwhy? there should be an error13:18
rm_youno other useful info presented13:18
griI run Qt Creator from inside the scratchbox and I hate to enter the commandlines every time ... a desktop shortcut would be much better13:18
rm_youthought maybe it had to do with it trying to build gtk-docs but disabled those and still dying13:23
rm_yougot it13:30
rm_yousome docs stuff hardcoded in13:30
rm_youi think13:30
rm_younope still dying13:31
rm_youah well it compiled13:39
rm_youbut says it's an invalid installation package13:39
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rm_youok got installed13:51
rm_youbut where does come from!?13:51
rm_youfound it13:54
* rm_you sighs13:54
rm_youwish you'd been around before i wasted like 3 hours writing an mplayer backend from scratch T_T13:58
rm_younow it segfaults :P14:05
RST38hN950 is here14:08
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RST38hSDK! SDK!14:17
* RST38h restrains himself14:17
thpRST38h: :p14:25
thpRST38h: so will we see tasty emulators for harmattan soon? :)14:25
RST38hthp:theonly thing that pains me is that all this beauty is about to be squandered... or not...14:28
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RST38hDoes this let me disable Aegis?
griDocScrutinizer: Do you know if aegis protects .desktop files?15:21
DocScrutinizernot for sure, but I'd dare betting money against it15:21
thpgri: aegis protects only files for which it has hashes15:22
DocScrutinizerRST38h: you CAN NOT disable aegis, our devices miss the R&D cert15:22 what $Nokia said15:23
grithp: So it has no hashes for .desktop files?15:24
grior does it depend?15:24
DocScrutinizerthe question is: what is the official way to find out about it?15:24
DocScrutinizerprobably not to edit a file and watch it go "Yor Device Got Problems, please try to reflash" :-S15:26
RST38hDoc: Will they include the R&D certificate the next time?15:26
DocScrutinizerNokia, by implementing and arming Aegis the way they did, has created a playground fu15:27
DocScrutinizerfull off APM mines for us15:27
RST38hThere was no other way :)15:27
RST38hHave you ever seen a DRM "solution" that would not be either 1) ineffective or 2) a fuckup or 1+2?15:28
DocScrutinizerfine, so when you win a holiday in Afghanistan in the mine fields, you cheer and pack your things?15:28
RST38hI run for the hills.15:29
DocScrutinizerI honestly tried NOT to start and rant about fsckdup Aegis/TC/MSSF for at least 3h after getting up - seems I didn't make it15:29
RST38hBut the art of this is how to make it to the end of your life without winning these =)15:29
RST38hBTW, Doc, are there already some repos with the third party software that I can add to N950?15:30
DocScrutinizerRST38h: you just won and accepted a holiday in the minefields - it's called N950&Aegis and AIUI sits on your desk15:30
DocScrutinizerRST38h: check out this:
DocScrutinizerthere's rzr's repo, plus a few others. There's NO central repo for random developer untested rocks yet15:33
DocScrutinizerpackrat gets a lot of them though15:33
DocScrutinizerobviously not for apt-get but hey :-D15:33
RST38hAh, rm_me, good chap, added the Harmattan repos to the Packrat =))15:34
DocScrutinizerbtw I seem to have read a mail that suggests today won't work anything15:34
RST38hGiven that N950 seemingly misses App Manager,how do I add repos? Directly to sources.list?15:34
dm8tbrthere is a directory like sources.list.d or sthg like that15:35
DocScrutinizersth like that15:35
macmaNhas anyone tried copying authorized_keys into ~user/.ssh?15:36
RST38hfreaking shit everyone has got his ownrepo now15:36
RST38hexactly what admins tried to avoid with maemo515:36
macmaNyou are in for a surprise with that one, if you havent15:36
RST38hhow touching...15:36
* DocScrutinizer realizes he managed since >11years to not touch proprietary or evil crap like $redmond or TC, and now has a device with Aegis on his desk AT HOME!!1!! :-o (goes throwing up)15:37
DocScrutinizermacmaN: I'm doing that all the time15:38
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DocScrutinizerto /root though15:38
dm8tbrRST38h: premature conclusions :)15:39
DocScrutinizermacmaN: what's the surprise with $USERHOME ?15:39
DocScrutinizeraegis another time :-o15:39
dm8tbrRST38h: there will be a repository, alike extras where those community packages will be promoted to. at least that's my understanding how the whole story of looks15:40
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: damn, we need extras-devel_just_worse - for NOW15:40
DocScrutinizerthen otoh installing from an untrusted source to find you can't execute doesn't make much sense either15:41
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: talk to lbt, step up to help with this15:41
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: I'm the one certified idiot about repos and packaging here15:42
DocScrutinizeryou couldn't find anybody less qualified15:42
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: the story is fairly new to many people, still it needs volunteers15:43
DocScrutinizerI'm just qualified to ask the NOOB questions, and whine about how messed up all this is15:43
DocScrutinizerand I'm having a hard time supporting THIS particular mix of linux and TC15:45
DocScrutinizerI'm still waiting what happens, but I'm definitely closer to sending back the device than to investing much effort to help Nokia make Aegis work15:46
dm8tbrI don't think whining is the constructive thing to do.15:47
DocScrutinizerthe most radical of my FOSS fighter friends already frown at me15:47
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: there's no other constructive thing to do with TC than to refuse to touch the whole thing15:48
DocScrutinizereach sound advise about TC is "don't buy it, and tell all the people you can reach to also not buy it"15:49
RST38hWhat is TC?15:50
DocScrutinizerNokia promised there was a way to switch of aegis. There's *not*15:50
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infobotwell, aegis is , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or
RST38hnot nokia, its engineers promised15:50
RST38hengineers do not decide things at nokia15:50
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: *sigh*, if you didn't realize, devloper mode enables you to declare aegis capabilities yourself for almost every possible capability there is15:51
DocScrutinizerso I'm really sorry about the engineers at Nokia and the brilliant work they did with harmattan, but as it's now I'm not temped to help make Aegis a success story so it seems I can't help with harmattan either15:52
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: show me how to declare capabilities for to make mc run under root and I'm all yours15:53
DocScrutinizerdon't tell me "you `only` have to compile it in your local SDK"15:54
DocScrutinizershow me how to set capabilities so I can edit arbitrary files on device without ending at "Reflash please"15:56
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: what's wrong with that package as it is?15:56
DocScrutinizerhow to do friggin normal thinks like kill -9 $random-pid15:56
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: aiui it has no manifest15:56
dm8tbrthen it should end up with default capabilities that shouldn't be too restrictive. if it needs aditional capabilities then it needs a manifest15:57
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: the default capabilities *ARE WAY TOO* restrictive15:58
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: show me please15:58
DocScrutinizerin developer mode the default should be: no restrictions at all15:58
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: install that mc.deb, try to run as root15:58
DocScrutinizersimple as that15:58
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: besides, you are tyring to shoehorn the 'default unix/linux system with no security at all besides UID' way onto this device, this does NOT work. period.15:59
DocScrutinizerthen this device is crap. period.15:59
dm8tbrthis is not your average linux box as you end up with after flipping in a ubuntu CD15:59
dm8tbrplease stop trolling, ktx15:59
DocScrutinizerI'm not trolling16:00
DocScrutinizerthis system is restricted to a level where even the so called developer mode doesn't allow BASIC things to be done - not even by and esp not by root - that are working on every other sane system16:01
dm8tbrit's simple: if you are a jackass and don't even try to understand that there is an additional set of restrictions that do not necessarily pose a problem to you if you understand them and work with them, then I don't see why I should even try and help/feed you.16:02
dm8tbrabandon the notion of root16:02
dm8tbrabandon what you know about system security on linux, this is different and it's not as restrictive as you think16:02
thpDocScrutinizer: actually you can install normal .debs and run them - as normal user "user"16:03
thp(i.e. install them as "root", run them as "user"16:03
dm8tbrtrying to kick down the door doesn't work when it's reinforced. but hey why would you, someone didn't lock it at all16:03
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dm8tbrso instead of trying to be joe-root-rambo try to work with it16:04
DocScrutinizerdamn, I don't care about semantics. Give me permissions to run arbitrary binaries, generated by dd if=/dev/random, and I'm happily taking the responsibility of the result. Tell me what friggin switches I need to throw to enable this. I fthere is not way to enable this (and it obviously IS like this) then goodbye harmattan16:04
ElleoDocScrutinizer: --relaxed-exec should allow you to run arbitrary binaries (as the devel user, not as root)16:05
DocScrutinizeras metioned above there IS a way to disable aegis, just it's locked on our developer(!) devices16:05
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ElleoDocScrutinizer: in the develsh use aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec16:05
DocScrutinizerElleo: yes16:05
DocScrutinizerElleo: exactly16:05
DocScrutinizerand running mc as user, user permissions apply16:06
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: in all honesty, I suggest you send back your device to Nokia, someone else would make much better use of it.16:06
macmaNDocScrutinizer: lol you tried it yes? total facepalm moment there16:06
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: from a nokia perspective your statement for sure is 100% true16:07
DocScrutinizermacmaN: I tried what? edit a 644 file as user? you're not suggesting this would work as soon as I run mc as user?16:09
DocScrutinizerif I tried to run mc as root? sure I did16:10
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: I'm saying this from a community perspective. All you are ever doing is yacking and being a jackass about aegis, this has a negative impact on the atmosphere here and on other people. In contrast there are obviously people that manage to get things working and develop successfully for the device.16:10
macmaNdevel-su; cp /root/.ssh/authorized_keys ~user/.ssh16:10
DocScrutinizermacmaN: aah that, no I didn't16:10
macmaNmaybe you could try that for verification?16:11
DocScrutinizermacmaN: I asked what's the result16:11
DocScrutinizerI'm not eager to do a reflash16:11
macmaNnah, nothing that serious16:11
macmaNpermission denied or operation not permitted, dont remember16:11
macmaNabout to ssh in there though, so i can recheck16:11
DocScrutinizermacmaN: that's what I'm saying and get bashed for that by dm8tbr16:12
DocScrutinizerroot is not root on this device16:12
macmaNah right.16:12
macmaNok i didnt read through the discussion with dm8tbr16:12
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# cp /root/.ssh/authorized_keys ~user/.ssh/16:14
DocScrutinizercp: can't create '/home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys': Permission denied16:14
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# ls -ld ~user/.ssh/16:14
DocScrutinizerdrwxr-xr-x    2 user     users         4096 Jul 24 15:14 /home/user/.ssh/16:14
TronicDocScrutinizer: root cannot touch user's .ssh16:15
dm8tbrare you root or user?16:15
dm8tbrthat won't work16:15
TronicDocScrutinizer: Use temporary file, then use user to install the file to .ssh16:15
dm8tbr13:02:47< dm8tbr> abandon what you know about system security on linux, this is different and it's not as restrictive as you think16:15
ElleoDocScrutinizer: I don't get a permission denied when running mc as root via devel-su (unlike when logged in as a normal root user)16:15
DocScrutinizerI'm off finding a DHL package16:15
Elleoalthough it still doesn't actually run for me since I don't have libslang216:16
TronicDunno which security system is preventing this (aegis, selinux, whatnot) but it is not UNIX permissions and being root doesn't help you there.16:16
macmaNTronic: whatsup dawg :>16:16
dm8tbrapproaching harmattan with the mindset of 'I'm root I can do everything' is the single most dangerous thing to do16:16
TronicmacmaN: I'm too low on caffeine but still trying to force myself to do some development.16:17
TronicAt the moment I am trying to get meego-terminal built.16:17
macmaNTronic: dayjob or fun stuff :>16:17
dm8tbrmeego terminal could use some url-magic and c&p magic :-/16:18
TronicYes, and proper colors, getting rid of that theme systems and whatnot.16:20
TronicI guess the development version already has some fixed beyond what comes with the phone.16:20
macmaNTronic: oh youre saying user can modify ~user/.ssh eh16:21
TronicmacmaN: user can, root cannot.16:21
macmaNyep right. ok gonna go try16:21
DocScrutinizerbtw it's NOT harmattan that is crippled. Harmattan is a proper linux system and just fine. It's harmattan+aegis+**the_control_nokia_grants_by_their_configuration_of_agies** that makes a I'm_root mindset dangerous16:23
DocScrutinizerand for nothing16:23
DocScrutinizeras we DO NOT NEED aegis in devel-mode (or open mode, or whatever it's called)16:23
thpDocScrutinizer: actually, aegis does fulfill a good purpose. protecting *your data* from applications that run as user "user" (i.e. apps that you install from the repos)16:24
DocScrutinizerfor checking compatibility of our elaborates we got "normal mode" where I'm completely fine with aegis kicking my ass for trying to write to ~user as ~root16:24
thpalthough I'm not sure if this is still the case (but I assume apps would get permission denied when trying to access contact data, etc.)16:24
DocScrutinizerthp: on a DEVELOPER device I'm not supposed to have any valuable data16:25
DocScrutinizerIf I had, than how BAD is aegis forcing a reflash every other day?16:26
thpi actually haven't run into the "aegis bricks the system" situation yet16:26
thpbut then again, i don't edit files in installed packages on my ubuntu system either16:27
DocScrutinizermaybe you're not running self developed (python) scripts on your ubuntu either?16:28
DocScrutinizeror you simply don't need manifests to request tokens to make those self written python scripts run on ubuntu?16:28
DocScrutinizeraegis has definitely zero benefit for a developer during develpment. It's only helpful in final phase when testing for user system compliance16:29
DocScrutinizerand of course users (sic!) only developing apps that can run under user account completely, won't run into any aegis limitations usually16:31
thpDocScrutinizer: but then, i'd like to have my development environment match the final deployment environment as much as possible16:32
Damion3actually I found I can now iwconfig essid BLAH as "user", which I'm pretty sure needs root on other systems.  Is aegis helping here?16:32
thpotherwise i'd run into complications down the road when my assumptions don't hold anymore in an aegis-protected environment16:32
DocScrutinizerthp: then you're still free to switch to "normal mode"16:32
Damion3also user can chown stuff as arbitrary users including stuff to root16:32
thpDocScrutinizer: switching modes is only possible via reflash afaik16:32
DocScrutinizerthp: switching modes basically impossible afaik16:33
DocScrutinizerit allegedly *is* possible if your device got R&D certificate16:33
Damion3DocScrutinizer: what exactly happens when you echo 0 to the virtual file in the /proc/sys/security/something file ?16:33
DocScrutinizerI.E. Nokians *can* disable aegis16:34
Damion3that works on mine and I don't know why I'd have a special nokia r&d version16:34
thpDocScrutinizer: then again, you can build .debs, make sure they are signed and request the right permissions and off you go16:34
DocScrutinizerthp: that would work for a self built cp, kill, mv ?16:35
thpi can't see a reason why it would not work16:35
Damion3thp: that was what I assumed, it's only slightly more of a pain and helps you test what it would be like as a user rather than littering your system via ssh with stuff that has made it work that doesn't replicate on other phones16:35
Damion3by turning on relaxed exec I can faff about a bit, but then go back to normal and try and sort a .deb properly.16:36
thpDocScrutinizer: that's also why i have little problems with my python stuff - /usr/bin/python is hashed, so i can run it and then as arguments any python script that i want16:36
DocScrutinizerDamion3: I'm not interested in Nokia teaching me to protect myself from own generic mess16:36
thpDocScrutinizer: then use the n900 or some other open device instead of the n95016:37
Damion3DocScrutinizer: personally I hate the faff of packaging and normally mess on-device, certainly did a lot of that on the n90016:37
DocScrutinizerthp: I actually do16:37
Damion3I got a long way, but it also means my stuff is balls and I've not bothered putting a Qt GUI on anything (or hildon before).  Which means it's not useful for many people16:38
thpDocScrutinizer: great :) and as a side project, you could try to contact the right nokians and petition them to provide aegis-less images (as qole does)16:38
DocScrutinizerthp: I probably should ask konttori why he was to keen to give me a device. I was sceptic from beginning about it16:38
Damion3mediatomb, EyeFi daemon, squid (for lazy non NAT adhoc tethering), qemu-user for fast x86 running.  All of these are useless to users16:38
DocScrutinizerthp: that's a very rrasonable suggestion16:38
DocScrutinizer(no sarcasm)16:39
Damion3thp: does the boot loader only boot signed images?16:39
thpDamion3: from what i've heard, yes16:39
Damion3well that's a pain16:39
thpor rather, the device won't allow flashing of an unsigned image16:39
DocScrutinizerthat's it16:40
thp(although i'm not sure if you could e.g. flash an unsigned rootfs, but not flash an unsigned kernel, etc..)16:40
DocScrutinizerStskeeps looks into that, it would be the ultimate showstopper for meegoCE16:40
thpbut again, there's nothing technically stopping nokia from providing a signed image that has aegis disabled16:40
Damion3s/there's nothing/there's only management who control everything eng would like to do/16:41
DocScrutinizerthp: nothing is technically stopping Nokia from giving us a R&D cert16:41
DocScrutinizeras R&D is what we do16:42
thpso next step to achieve your goal is to learn how to talk to management and come up with a list of advantages that giving R&D certs/signed images would have16:42
DocScrutinizerhmm, sounds like an unpleasant and daunting but necessary task, yes16:43
thpeasier said than done, but still "give is R&D certs!" is not as good an argument as "i could do thing A, thing B and awesome thing C with that device and make it much cooler/attractive to buying customers if only I had some R&D certs"16:43
thp(with "R&D certs" being a placeholder for whatever it is that you really need to get your work done)16:44
DocScrutinizeralas I'm notorious to bitch even at a metric of FOSS community, mgmt never likes my statements, even when written in best available sense16:44
Damion3thp: of my project plans, most are going to be quite a pain as things stand:
DocScrutinizerthen OTOH Nokia has a long record of ignoring 100% of "user" requests like these, so I'm seriously convinced I'd waste my time16:46
thpDamion3: afaik tethering will be supported by joikuspot (not floss, but gratis)16:47
Damion3DocScrutinizer: I've been told they'll listen to my account manager as they value the partnership my company has.  I'll forumate an email in the next few days16:47
DocScrutinizerand AIUI Nokia not even has the inhouse competence/manpower to do anything about it anymore16:47
thpDocScrutinizer: probably yes16:47
Damion3thp: it's AdHoc, so useless.  I tried it16:47
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thpDamion3: what's the problem with adhoc vs. infrastructure?16:48
Damion3Before I edited a startup script (just a commented out line, but it'll have altered the hash and i didn't know about aegis at the time), thus aegis forcing it to reflash.  The images I was on some release candidate firmware images, they had angrybirds and other quite impressive games and joikuspot's tether16:49
thpDocScrutinizer: and compared to fremantle, most of the ux is closed on harmattan, so no chance for the community to do improvements there down the road (ignoring the aegis issues for now)16:50
Damion3thp: I have simless android devices and a Sony PSP and I think the iPad also - none of these work with adhoc16:50
thpDamion3: not even if adding the connection manually?16:50
Damion3thp: you can root an android device and MAKE it work, PSP definitely not.  Can't recall the ipad16:51
Damion3thp: sure my linux based laptop doesn't care, so it's not useless.  Although I already have ppp support working and that's better for battery of both devices!16:51
DocScrutinizerthp: ack. Still enough to mess around with. Hostmode a nogo without a bit of access at *real* root level, unless I'm going to build gentoo native on this thing, as a devlopment environment. And then I'm sure the result definitly won't fit into user aegis enabled systems16:52
thpDamion3: i see. that's because the other devices are even more evil :p16:52
Damion3thp: On kernel 2.6.32, infrastructure mode became trivial VS h/ware specific/hard16:52
Damion3thp: I'nm not disagreeing with that, just stating a point16:52
Damion3thp: I'm not sure what posessed them to just kludge joikuspot rather than to do htis properly16:53
Damion3HostAP and associated stuff used to rely on atheros chipset and some others.  I don't actually know what it is you do to use the new 80211.ko in its new fancy mode, I just know it is explained in a few one liners in the kernel release16:54
DocScrutinizerthp: simple brightness applet, load applet, custom profiles... all needs a fair bit of system access, and probably community was smart enough to plumb it to harmattan, not sure though how aegis during development could help to speed up the process16:55
Damion3there is little point in my finding out what is needed if I can't load a kernel module16:55
Damion3DocScrutinizer: flashlight app too16:55
DocScrutinizeranyway, enough frustration for now. Maybe c u l8r16:57
thpDocScrutinizer: otoh, i can see this improving the architecture of said apps. as opposed to some apps/plugins just running as root, they actually have to create a small utility app/service that provides the information in a proper way16:57
thpand most developers don't fix the architecture once they have got something working on their dev machine16:57
DocScrutinizerthp: moot argument, as I'm *not* most developers, and I don't need forced lessons from nokia how to optimize my development processes16:58
DocScrutinizerthose who like this kind of guidance are free to develop under normal mode16:58
RST38hSwp[                       0/255MB]17:00
DocScrutinizerI'm not eager to learn to live with aegis, only to find this being all obsolete knowledge in max 6 months17:00
RST38hYeah, baby, let us put Maemo5 on it!17:00
DocScrutinizerand now bbl17:00
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DocScrutinizermeh, PS: not willing to live with aegis *for development*, as that obviously means start to learn all your unix knowhow from scratch again. I'd be willing to cope with aegis after the PoC or even prototype is running just fine17:02
DocScrutinizerto do a cp ~root/ssh ~user/.ssh I don't need to learn to do this under aegis, as that'S not part of my final product, it's a part of the development process, and I'm not going to train for development under aegis, regarding that aspect17:04
DocScrutinizeras I system architect I'm rather confident my design is so sane I'd rather expect a bug in aegis than in my project's architecture if the final integration to aegis reveals problems :-)17:05
RST38hDoc: btw mc does not install17:07
RST38hcannot install libslang17:07
DocScrutinizerRST38h: that's the one from djszapi, yes. Sorry17:07
DocScrutinizerlemme checkif I find the one of achipa again17:08
RST38hwhy doesn't he make libslang2 available?17:08
Damion3DocScrutinizer: it's similar to nfs mounting with rootsquash17:08
Damion3liberal use of chmod 777 for a moment before cp and then chmod 700 after (as user) will work.  And as far as I can see su -c user chmod will work as root anyway17:08
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# history17:09
DocScrutinizer-sh: history: not found17:09
DocScrutinizerFSCK messybox!17:09
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# bash17:09
DocScrutinizer-sh: bash: Operation not permitted17:09
RST38htry h17:09
RST38hBTW, looks like N950 apt-get simply can't resolve dependencies17:10
RST38hIt never tries installing depends, even if they are available17:10
RST38hmaybe I am wrong though...17:10
* RST38h has to talk rm_you into merging Harmattan and pre-Harmattan versions of Packrat17:11
RST38hNo need to have two really17:11
DocScrutinizerRST38h: h: not found. Sorry it scrolled out of the 100lines histrory anyway. So I'm sorry I forgot the URL for wget to install the *Real* (still flawed) mc17:11
DocScrutinizerRST38h: check chanlog17:12
RST38hmgedmin to the rescue!17:12
* mtd answers own question from a few hours ago: this page seems to be a place to collect useful info for N950 devkit program participants:
RST38hOMG nano comes preinstalled!17:20
mtdRST38h: meh :).   Wake me up when a real editor is on there.17:23
RST38hmtd: vi is there, I know that is what you want B)~17:25
mtdRST38h: nope, I'm waiting for emacs :)17:26
* mtd will be waiting for some time, I expect17:26
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Stskeeps qa65.]qq18:16
hiemanshuStskeeps: ?18:18
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macmaNheh, so does anyone else's n950 lock screen drop a number from the clock?18:37
macmaNtime is now 1_:3618:37
macmaNit is an exercise to the user to figure out exactly what time it is18:37
mtdmacmaN: no, mine looks fine18:38
macmaNright, mine did too for the first few weeks18:38
macmaNjust noticed it yesterday18:38
mtdmacmaN: weird18:39
macmaNno idea how it gets this way18:39
fralsits a bug in that build18:39
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tommamacmaN, it works after boot18:40
tommawhat number was it?18:40
macmaNit actually works intermittently again i think without boot as well18:40
macmaNit's 18:38 right now, i think 8 therefore, but not sure if thats the only one18:40
tommamine dropped number 318:40
tommaonly 318:41
macmaNthats funny18:41
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hiemanshumacmaN: yeah, mine dropped 4, DocScrutinizer's dropped a 9 once18:59
macmaNi think its part of the n9 youtube video game19:00
macmaN"find the missing numbers!"19:00
macmaNand i also know how their sending this information from everybody's n95019:01
macmaNRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:/var/log# cat pasms.log19:01
macmaN[2011-07-06T15:35:06] void PhoneActivation::smsSendFinished(bool, QString): success = "true"19:01
macmaNok i really need to configure ssh keepalive for n95019:02
macmaNthis thing just drops wifi whenever it feels like it19:02
hiemanshujust waiting for a new image19:03
macmaNare you holding your breath like i am?19:03
macmaNif yes there could be breaking news about at least two suffocated meego developers soon19:03
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M4rtinK2unlike with the N900 I have no problems with ssh connections dying on the N95019:19
M4rtinK2through wifi, even when it is not plugged in...19:19
macmaNM4rtinK2: could depend on the client. ServerAliveInterval 30 in .ssh/config seems to work19:19
macmaNnow im trying to figure out why i cannot ssh user@n95019:20
M4rtinK2on the N900 I need to have ping running or the connection soon stops working19:20
macmaNhow do i restart sshd19:20
M4rtinK2is connect as root and then just do su user...19:20
macmaNisnt it normal in a sane world to do it the other way around?19:21
macmaNok what kind of init system is this /etc/init/*.conf19:22
macmaNupstart or something?19:22
macmaNits not systemd right19:22
Clintyeah, upstart19:23
macmaNoh it is upstart, right19:23
macmaNwell crap i dont know anything about it yet19:23
macmaNhmmm sqlite3 would be handy on n95019:35
M4rtinK2macmaN: well, Pythons sqlite3 is there (I just checked)19:41
Mekisn't there a normal sqlite3 package too you can easily install?19:42
macmaNapt-cache search sqlite doesnt give me anything19:42
Mekhmm, okay, must be in the internal repo only then.. sorry19:43
macmaNoh yeah, somehow the dpkg db gets locked also19:43
macmaNUpdating desktop entries... Done19:43
macmaNE: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11: Resource temporarily unavailable)19:43
macmaNE: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?19:43
macmaNonly reboot releases it, or something that i dont know about19:43
DocScrutinizerkill $someprocess - somebody mentioned it here some days ago. Sorry forgot which process exactly19:46
macmaN  File "/usr/lib/python2.6/curses/", line 33, in initscr19:46
macmaN    fd=_sys.__stdout__.fileno())19:46
macmaNerror: setupterm: could not find terminal19:46
macmaNtrying to get running19:47
DocScrutinizermacmaN: lsof might help19:47
macmaN# htop19:48
macmaNError opening terminal: xterm-256color.19:48
macmaNok i hear that19:48
macmaNok just regular xterm works19:48
macmaNouch i guess not, messed up my terminal19:49
macmaNDocScrutinizer: lsof or fuser dont give anything for /var/lib/dpkg/lock19:54
DocScrutinizer:nod: same here19:54
macmaN ok this looks like something19:56
macmaNok what the heck is /usr/lib/sdk-connectivity-tool/devrootsh19:56
DocScrutinizer ""<Mek> hmm, okay, must be in the internal repo only then.. sorry"" just makes me sad19:57
Stskeepshiemanshu: n9, pocket19:57
macmaNsay whaaat?19:58
macmaNis that a subtle hint about n9 in your pocket? or are you just happy to see us19:58
DocScrutinizerobviously Nokia isn't inclined to really support the community regarding development. QML apps yes, but please don't touch the system, like using SQLite or anything19:58
Stskeepssorry, i get those confused19:58
macmaNhmm damn could use wgetpaste on device20:00
DocScrutinizerbasically QML is our dalvik, and we're not supposed to leave the sandbox20:00
macmaNso it turns out everyone has their dalvik to bear20:01
ElleoDocScrutinizer: there's nothing stopping you from compiling sqlite and using it20:01
DocScrutinizercool stuff20:01
Elleoit's literally the work of minutes with OBS just to link the existing debian packages up and just let it get on with building it20:01
Elleowhen it's working correctly ;)20:02
macmaNif someone showed me a demo of how to do that i would20:03
macmaNobs sounds ufo to me20:03
DocScrutinizersee, 2 Nokians tried to "simply build" mc, and none of the both mc.deb really works. And it seems it tok them both more than just a few minutes to fail20:03
DocScrutinizerachipa's mc.deb actually works, but again only as non-root user20:05
frals"like using SQLite or anything" <- whats the problem with using SQLite?20:05
DocScrutinizermaybe I'm missing the instructions how to make it work under root, but then again that's not my fault20:06
achipawhich nokians ?20:06
ElleoDocScrutinizer: did you try via devel-su from develsh rather than logging in as root?20:07
DocScrutinizerfrals:  ""<Mek> hmm, okay, must be in the internal repo only then.. sorry""  is the first annoyance with it20:07
macmaNkillall -KILL pkgmgrd does the trickz20:07
DocScrutinizerachipa: aren't you a "Nokian"20:07
Elleoit started for me like that (as opposed to giving a permission denied), albeit not completetly since I don't have libslang2 which it requires20:07
achipaI'm not sure I failed. It took me <5min to port it from Maemo20:08
achipabut who is the other ?20:08
achipahe's not a nokian20:08
DocScrutinizeranyway today I got more prodding to not bother about aegis anymore, as it20:09
DocScrutinizers not welcome here20:09
DocScrutinizerso I'll stop about it20:09
macmaNranger works20:10
macmaNtry that for file manager DocScrutinizer20:11
macmaNif youre a vim person, you should dig it20:11
macmaNok at least .ashrc works20:15
DocScrutinizermacmaN: thanks for the hint, but I think I made up my mind I'll stay with the unix toolbox I'm used to - that's after all why I spent money on Nokia devices running maemo. If that toolbox is obsolete, I'm not going to learn Nokia's world of system administration, I'll rather go for the real thing then if I'd really consider learning all new from scratch.20:15
mtdmacmaN: not sure if it's related, but after setting authorized_keys ssh'ing in as user stopped asking for a password once I set a password for the user and symlinked authorized_keys2 -> authorized_keys20:16
macmaNmtd: hmmmm. it's asking for user@ password, even though i have authorized_keys. perhaps i should set one. also .ashrc seems to be ignored for Terminal hrm. where do i set my aliases then.20:16
macmaNDocScrutinizer: right. well im sure it'll get sorted out. just a holdover suggestion until then.20:17
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DocScrutinizermacmaN: I'll wait for the day it gets sorted, until then I'm not wasting any more time on that20:18
mtdmacmaN: yeah, I had the same symptom.  I set the password and symlinked authorized_keys2 -> authorized_keys (IIRC at one point I'm sure this was necessary)20:18
connyHi guys!20:18
mtdmacmaN: one of those two worked for me, it seems.20:18
connyAnyone knows how to the the highlight color in Harmattan QML Components?20:18
mtdmacmaN: I could ssh in as root w/o a password (using pub/priv key) before I could ssh in as user, and I did that w/o the a_k2 symlink, so I guess the password setting was the trick (I had set a root password long before)20:19 to set the highlight color .... I mean20:19
macmaNmtd: symlinking alone isnt fixing it. i was wondering how i can get sshd to log into syslog.20:19
mtdmacmaN: yeah I didn't get that far.  I just set a password for "user".20:20
macmaNmtd: yep will try that next20:20
mtdmacmaN: perhaps you could kill sshd and run it as user in -d mode20:20
mtdshould QtCreator-compiled binaries run on the n950 w/o any aegis fiddling?20:21
* mtd is doing the QtCreator tutorial and it works in the simulator, but gives a strage error when I try to run the binary on the N590.20:22
macmaNconny: no deep qt devs around right now it seems20:23
connymacmaN: shouldn't be that deep ;)20:23
mtdok, I lied, when I tried to run the binary _using_QtCreator_ it fails.  It runs with a butt-ugly theme when I run it from the command line as "user".20:23
npmwhat code do i use to find out whether my application is in the "foreground"? (and not one of the deselected/inactive apps)20:24
macmaN11;authpriv.*;remoteauth.crit            /var/log/secure.log20:24
macmaNhrm yet sshd doesnt log anything20:24
npmmacmaN if you're having ssh problems read the ssh manpage carefully and set the permissions for all your files correctly20:25
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macmaNnpm: maybe i need manually touch secure.log20:25
macmaNtrying that20:25
npm-rw-------    1 user     users          744 Nov 16  2010 id_dsa20:25
npm-rw-------    1 user     users          951 Nov 16  2010 id_rsa20:26
npm-rw-------    1 user     users          536 Nov 16  2010 identity20:26
lynxisbtw. qtcreator hates password protected keys20:26
mtdnpm: don't forget dir permissions20:26
npmdrwx------    2 user     users         4096 Jul 19 09:28 .ssh20:26
npmit'll fail silently if those are wrong20:26
npmand never go to logs20:27
macmaNnpm: it will if you have LogLevel DEBUG or something higher than INFO i think. ive run into the same thing on desktop.20:27
SpeedEvilAlso - permissions on .ssh and your user directoy are important20:27
macmaNyes true, thats why i am trying to get sshd log to show up in secure.log like its supposed to20:27
macmaNbut i dont know how to restart upstart daemons20:27
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macmaN /etc/init.d/sshd apparently is not hip enough anymore20:28
DocScrutinizerstop <service>;slepp 2;start <service>20:28
npm"5. You may not (or allow others to) enable any logic or protocols in the Product that are disabled when delivered to You by Nokia."20:28
DocScrutinizernpm: haha, yeah a exceptionally funny one20:29
macmaNwow start and stop? really :)20:29
SpeedEvilnpm: So you can't turn it on.20:29
macmaNthat's actually... nice20:29
DocScrutinizerImnetioned that before anybody (except jaffa?) got his device20:30
npmsorry, i just read that prior to looking into enabling twitter20:30
npmand it stopped me. back to working on apps :-)20:30
mtdnpm: how does one enable twitter?20:30
DocScrutinizerquim suggested to basically ignore it20:30
npmi want that in writing20:31
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mtdnpm: why?20:31
DocScrutinizernpm: you'll face same bashing I got, when mentioning it20:31
macmaNaha initctl is the heart of upstart20:31
npmas i realluy want to keep my n950 -- it's amazing and wonderful and i'm like a 2001 monkey to the monolith about it20:31
achipayou got fore/background/active/etc stuff there20:32
npmi have plenty to do anyways, so it'll keep me on track :-)20:32
macmaNooo initctl list20:32
achipamtd: is that a qwidget application ?20:33
DocScrutinizermacmaN: check start and stop cmds, they are just symlinks to initctrl20:33
macmaNDocScrutinizer: yep yep20:33
DocScrutinizermacmaN: also man start gives you initctl manpage20:33
macmaNn950 doesnt have man20:33
mtdachipa: not sure - it's the BatteryMonitor tutorial app from QtCreator.   Let me check.20:33
npmachipa: thanks!20:33
macmaNi dont run upstart anywhere else20:33
macmaNgentoo all the way20:33 i guesses20:34
macmaN# initctl restart syslogd20:34
macmaNinitctl: Unknown instance:20:34
achipamtd: battery monitor or battery indicator ?20:35
npmachipa: wow i even had that one bookmarked but never thought that "application lifecycle" had something to do with it20:35
macmaNnevermind i think i somehow stopped it before already20:35
macmaNhrm i needz tmux on this thing20:36
macmaNdidnt someone build a tmux package20:36
DocScrutinizermacmaN: , or google20:37
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DocScrutinizergood luck20:37
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achipamtd: if you are referring to close the project and forget it ASAP20:37
macmaNuhh pack rat? what the heck, (c) 2008 how come ive never seen this before20:38
DocScrutinizermacmaN: note that apparently fremantle .deb install and run just fine under certain circumstances20:38
npm"However, applications must not update the UI when it is not visible to the end user." ... but i kinda liked seeing the video playing back all small while listening and doing other apps....20:38
npm( ^^ )20:38
npmhopefully that one is safe to ignore20:38
npmi just want to disable preventing screenblanking when app is in background20:38
mtdachipa: yeah, that one.  What's not applicable about it?20:39
achipanpm: visible != minimized20:39
DocScrutinizernpm: an app IS visible but not active in taskswitcher20:39
npmtrue. it is technically still "visible" when updating in the app chooser20:39
npmgotta get my terminology rigjht20:40
mtdmacmaN: looks like a nice repo20:40
macmaNso the only way to do bookmarking in device is to put them in apps right20:40
DocScrutinizernpm: the page achipa pointed you at *clearly* states exactly tis case20:41
DocScrutinizermacmaN: alas yes20:41
achipamtd: it refers to the use of qwidgets on mobiles, which has been deprecated since last ~October20:41
DocScrutinizerstrange concept20:41
mtdachipa: ah, ok.  Is there a good replacement?20:42
macmaNcan't install, invalid installation package20:42
macmaNat least straight from browser20:42
macmaNlets try dpkg20:42
DocScrutinizermacmaN: that's why I wish "good luck" :-D20:42
DocScrutinizermacmaN: won't pan out20:43
npmhmmm... is there a C++ infc for platformWindow.viewMode etc20:43
achipamtd: QML (+components)20:43
DocScrutinizerit will install but not work when you force it via dpkg -i20:43
npmas i don't want to bother my qml code w/ stuff like that (and the display blanker's already in C++)20:43
DocScrutinizermacmaN: been there done that, 2 times ;-)20:44
DocScrutinizerwell, actually that's not true, Nokia's bash .deb was "invalid format" but runs under user nevertheless20:45
DocScrutinizerso it's just useless as a generic shell :-P20:45
mtdachipa: thanks.  It's a shame there is nothing with "QML" in the QtCreator initial "Welcome" screen, and that the "Creating a Mobile Application" section that is is so wrong :(20:46
achipamtd: welcome to my world :) :(20:47
achipadesktop people go crazy when you say QML and mobile people go crazy when you say QWidgets...20:47
mtdachipa: I was asking earlier about any N950 developer tips...does everybody but me know that already ?  Where should I have found that info?20:48
macmaNand i still dont know the difference between those20:48
mtds/know/that/know that one/20:48
macmaNperhaps ignorance is bliss after all20:48
macmaNDocScrutinizer: im not sure what youre talking about there buddy, cause tmux fired up just fine for me20:48
DocScrutinizerindeed I sypathize with both parties20:48
macmaNdpkg -i libevent...deb20:49
macmaNdpkg -i tmux...deb20:49
DocScrutinizermacmaN: as root? or under user, with --relxed-exec?20:49
macmaNso far just tried root20:49
macmaNwas busy jumping around the room to try user20:50
DocScrutinizerhmm, fine, so we have a third behaviour, actually a 4th when we count normal behaviour as well20:50
macmaNyep works fine for user too20:50
achipamtd: actually, just start at
macmaNhmm can i just see everything thats available in pack rat?20:51
macmaNit says i have to search something for empty query20:51
DocScrutinizera) doesn't install under browser (diub), and doesn't work at all, b) diub and works under user account only, c) your case, diub and works nevertheless, and d) installs under browser20:52
DocScrutinizerthis is a really intriguing text adventure20:52
macmaNDocScrutinizer: ok well this is interesting...20:53
macmaN# tmux20:53
macmaN-sh: tmux: Operation not permitted20:53
DocScrutinizerthat's "normal" ;-P20:53
macmaNthen i do su - user, then it works20:53
macmaNinside su, i do deve-su, then it works under root20:53
DocScrutinizerthat's b)20:54
macmaNright my first attempt was inside this devel-su inside su - user20:54
macmaNso everything is consistent :)20:54
* DocScrutinizer sighs and turns away20:54
mtdachipa: thanks very much20:55
DocScrutinizerI guess the last time I sucked up this amount of useless new things in this short time was when I had to deal with VBA20:55
DocScrutinizerat a time when they thought translating sourcecode was a smart thing20:56
mtddoes editing /etc/mce/mce.ini trigger aegis-lock?20:56
DocScrutinizerprolly not20:57
DocScrutinizerthough on your own peril20:57
DocScrutinizerthe question however is: HOW T*F* do we check if it's safe or not?20:57
DocScrutinizerand again I'm involved. KTNXBY20:58
macmaNyou can never get enough of a good thing20:58
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seifhey does meego CE work on n95021:00
DocScrutinizer<quote IT crowd>use su - and Edit it! when it doesn't work, get a *real* OS! Then edit it</quote>21:01
DocScrutinizernuff said21:01
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seifDamion3, huh21:04
seifDocScrutinizer, ^21:04
Elleowhoever it was that was after sqlite I've just built some packages: they should appear in my repository whenever OBS gets around to publishing them:
ElleomacmaN: ^ think it was you?21:08
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macmaNElleo: mhm it was21:17
macmaNthanks dawg21:17
Elleono problem :)21:18
macmaNjust doing devel-su when logging in as root will also allow you to run stuff21:18
macmaNat least dpkg-installed stuff..21:19
seifvgrade, there?21:20
seifElleo, you kinda rock :)21:20
mtdDocScrutinizer: I'm looking up the inode of the file-that-might-be-under-the-aegis-of-aegis in /sys/kernel/security/validator/hashlist21:22
mtdDocScrutinizer: that should tell me is aegis covers it.21:22
macmaNElleo: can you ship an openvpn package while you're at it?21:22
ElleomacmaN: I'll see what I can do21:23
macmaNthanks, really really dying for that. ill take a look at coding up a *decent* status applet for it.21:24
macmaNcan anyone explain why .bashrc is executed for root on login21:24
macmaNis that built into ash?21:25
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macmaNat the same time i cant get anything to execute on terminal launch21:25
macmaNfor user21:25
macmaNanything = .bashrc or .ashrc21:26
macmaNwhat sense does this make
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macmaNoh Just had a look at the busybox source and it says it uses the contents of environment variable ENV as a startup script so you could do21:28
macmaNyeah ok that works21:29
ElleomacmaN: openvpn may take a little longer as there are a few extra dependencies that need building first21:31
macmaNyeah liblzo and friends21:31
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rm_youRST38h: yeah21:43
rm_youRST38h: i just wanted to hack it into working21:43
rm_youRST38h: but seriously, i had to rewrite a bunch of stuff completely to get it to work21:43
rm_you"merging" it would require like... having two versions of every function21:44
rm_youit's not feasible21:44
rm_youif YOU want to try, go for it21:44
rm_youbut i barely even know Perl anyway (the Crawler is perl... did you write it? I forgot who gave it to me)21:44
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rm_youwoo maybe fixed my pandora bug. probably not the right way, but it goddamn works. this is going to be battery draining :/21:57
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RST38hrm_you: Hey, is there absolutely no way to have maemo5- and harmattan repos in the same version of packrat?22:06
rm_youRST38h: like i said, it's completely different22:06 different?22:06
RST38hmust still be a debian repo no?22:06
rm_youthe logic for everything from detecting repositories to indexing them to reading the package info22:06
rm_youall different22:06
rm_youall before maemo5 pull from gronmayer.it22:07
rm_youharmattan pulls from a wiki22:07
rm_youmaemo5 are true apt repos so they have a set structure22:07
rm_youharmattan repos are PPAs with no structure predictable22:07
rm_youand then once you get to package metadata, they have completely different attributes22:07
rm_youalso -- i don't care about anything < Harmattan anymore, and have other things i'm busy with :P i just got it working as a stopgap22:08
RST38hMeanwhile: The Hacker News is reporting that Android password data is being stored as plain text in its SQlite database.22:09
macmaNsure why not. its not like people are going to steal ur tablet.22:10
RST38hit is not?22:12
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DocScrutinizerhey, if you're talking about passwords for services off-device, then there's actually little to no alternative to storing the passwords on device in plaintext - no matter which encoding you use for this plaintext storage22:34
Venemogood evening harmattanites22:34
DocScrutinizerit's an absolute nonsense idea to obfuscate passwords for e.g. pop3 mail accounts on client side. A simple wireshark monitoring of next time the mail client is polling the mailserver will reveal the passwords anyway22:37
VenemoDocScrutinizer, how're you doin'?22:41
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Venemoso, is there any news in Harmattan since I was gone?22:58
RST38haside from DocScrutinizier going ballistic over Aegis?No.23:00
Damion3for some reaon clicking on the packrat .deb doesn't install but the binaries within those .debs ork (tmux)23:05
VenemoRST38h, that is not news :P23:05
Venemodo we have an IRC client yet?23:06
Damion3a useful one?23:06
Venemouummm... any one?23:07
dm8tbrssh + irssi23:07
Damion3I'm using irssi (albeit via ssh+screen+host), but if you mean something which talks to a persistant daemon maintaining your presence for you that you communicate with from whatever network.  Then not yet23:08
Damion3I suspect the maemo version of what I describe runs fine23:08
Venemoum, isn't irssi a terminal thingy?23:08
Damion3isn't irc all text?23:08
Damion3I'm on my n950 right now23:09
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achipaDocScrutinizer: actually, gives you support for auth stuff with reasonable security.23:14
Venemohey achipa, how're you?23:15
achipahey, just finishing up and getting ready for late night stroll, while it's still not dark23:15
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Venemosounds nice23:17
DocScrutinizerachipa: I don't think this page can give me *any* new insight about pop3 properties and protocol. I'm well aware you can have data stored "secure" on a TC device, but that's still nonsense unless you make sure nobody does e.g install a wireshark with a spy function. If you can ensure this, you also can protect files that hold passwords in plain text.23:17
VenemoDocScrutinizer, so, you think it'd be better storing them in plaintext?23:18
djszapiachipa: this documentation issue was already mentioned to the SDK team23:18
DocScrutinizerVenemo: sure, what's the use of complicating life of your sysadmin?23:18
djszapiachipa: security fw documentation.23:18
DocScrutinizerbye o/23:19
VenemoDocScrutinizer, I agree with you about wireshark, but about all the other usecases, an encrypted password might be useful.23:19
djszapiachipa: and it requires a lot of resources which is probably not worth it, mainly with everybody leaving. This is mainly a user device, Nokia does not focus on developer device purposes from the software point of view.23:19
* RST38h screams BANZAI!, goes to try the SDK23:20
achipaVenemo: you could protect them. But since you won't bother, or can mess up, it's probably less fuss to do it through signon - and that one also leverages cross-application authentication23:20
Venemoachipa, I see23:20
achipaDocScrutinizer: and that's something your file protection won't give23:21
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DocScrutinizerachipa: protecting against WHAT?23:21
achipaDocScrutinizer: against people/apps accessing/leaking the passwords, or keeping unnecessary parallel connections23:22
DocScrutinizertzz I always thought that's the duty of the app's developer23:23
achipaif he's the only one using it, yes (and probably fail at it)23:24
djszapiDocScrutinizer: you cannot write secure application on Windows, if the platform is not like that :)23:24
achipabut think, say, google credentials23:24
achipait's used for mail, youtube, picasa, whatnot23:24
achipazillion different services23:24
DocScrutinizerhonestly there's NO increased security by whatever means as long as your protocol requires transfer of the plain text credentials at any given time23:24
achipaDocScrutinizer: and who says you transfer plaintext ?23:25
DocScrutinizerpop3 RFC says23:25
achipawho gives a s**t, should be SSL/TLS anyway with hashes23:26
achipathis is not about "I can make a use case where a 30 year old braindead protocol exposes passwords"23:26
DocScrutinizerpfff, still you send the plain password, just over a secure channel23:26
achipaerr, no ?23:26
DocScrutinizerthe secure cannel ends on your device23:26
achipalook, this is about services in general. If someone wants to use plaintext POP3, their problem23:27
kimjupop3 with client side storage on phone sounds so wrong.. imap(s) and server side storage of messages is much better (and secure) idea23:27
DocScrutinizerand even when you negotiate a asymmetric set of credentials, you still have to store the credentials locally, and the only way to keep this secure is to store them inside TPM23:28
kimjuI actually like the idea of phone providing secure storage for passwords etc..23:28
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achipaDocScrutinizer: and that's what signon does23:29
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DocScrutinizerkimju: achipa: OT - the fact that *some* app needs to know about a plain text of some credential makes it moot to try and crypt the credential on the device that runs the app23:30
achipaDocScrutinizer: no apps need to know, that's what I'm saying23:31
DocScrutinizerthere's *always* a way to run the app under gdb, or run wireshark, or find any other way to snoop the credential23:31
achipaDocScrutinizer so that's why you curse aegis that much ? :)23:31
DocScrutinizerachipa: sorry, I'm bored about this discussion really23:31
DocScrutinizerand I kinda promised I won't bitch about aegis anymore, I will just ignore it whenever I run into it.  "doesn't work? oh well, doesn't work then"23:32
achipaThe bottom line is - POP3 is a non issue23:33
achipaAPOP is pretty much supported by all major mail providers23:33
ElleomacmaN: openvpn has built, I had to modify it slightly to disable the PAM plugin, hope that isn't an issue for you23:33
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rcgwhen talking about aegis.. afaik the secure storage is "secured" by some some "token" that it is "given" to the app, e.g. the app id, via the aegis manifest.. so what prevents me from writing another app that requests the same token in its manifest/uses the same app id and access that "secure" storage?23:33
achipa(though why one would want to go POP3 in the first place is beyond me)23:33
ElleomacmaN: should be in my repo soon (whenever OBS transfers it)23:33
rcg*-one some23:34
macmaNElleo: thank you sir :>23:34
Elleono problem :)23:34
djszapi|winElleo: are you a Harmattan packager ?23:34
achiparcg: source - your key signs the package. He cannot claim to have come from com.foocorp if he lacks your keys23:34
DocScrutinizerhaha ok OT is OT as everything is a nonissue when you decide it's a nonissue just by avoiding to use it. Doesn't change my statement about storage of credentials and nonsense to crypt them23:34
achiparcg: and even the app cannot 'read' the credentials, that's the idea of signon23:35
achiparcg: it's a one way trip, once it's in there, only the auth plugin uses it and gives back a handle or whatever23:35
rcgachipa: ic.. am not talking about signon.. just asking about the concept behing aegis storage23:35
macmaNElleo: do you have your own repo appended to sources.list.d or how do you do it?23:35
Elleodjszapi|win: well I've been putting together packages for Harmattan, dunno if I'd call myself a "Harmattan packager" though ;)23:36
ElleomacmaN: yeah just wget in to /etc/apt/sources.list.d/23:36
achiparcg: yes, as said, that's regulated through source - you can provide tokens from/to predefined sources, not 'everybody'23:36
spenapElleo, thanks: I got my package building in OBS :)23:37
Elleospenap: awesome :)23:37
djszapi|winEllea: do you happen to have an idea how to make kdelibs work OBS ? :) It has not been working for 2 weeks or so23:37
Elleospenap: is that the space invaders one?23:37
spenapElleo, nope, I found that googling for the debhelper message error23:37
spenapI'm writing butaca, this application which provides movie information using themovie database23:38
Elleodjszapi|win: is it a specific package that's stalling things or is nothing being sent to build?23:38
spenap(this free approach to IMDB)23:38
Elleospenap: ah, cool23:38
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djszapi|winElleo: sometimes, rpc timeout - I guess that is mic2 related. Sometimes, it completely compiles the whole kdelibs, but it got stuck before creating the debian files.23:38
Elleodjszapi|win: I don't really know that much about OBS (or KDE stuff) I just have some basic debian packaging experience and have been playing with OBS for a couple of weeks23:38
spenapyou can check it out if you're interested: it's (it should be) quite usable right now23:38
djszapi|winThe build time is about 3-5 hours for it on OBS.23:39
Elleodjszapi|win: yeah, the rpc timeout stuff is a problem for all Harmattan builds it seems23:39
rcgachipa: hmm ic.. so simply said: in a "real world" use case.. that would prevent someone else from creating an app with the same "token" as my app to access my secured aegis storage?23:39
Elleoseems pretty intermitent too23:39
djszapi|winElleo: I am not getting it for all23:39
Elleodjszapi|win: nah, it happens seemingly randomly on different packages23:39
ElleoI just trigger rebuilds on packages that get stuck until it works23:40
achipaDocScrutinizer: you don't make sense. the fact that ONE authentication method of ONE protocol travels through the net unprotected means nothing from a platform standpoint (and all the other services and auth methods that ARENT plaintext or want to be leaked)23:40
rcgbut there is nothing which would allow the user to enter his own passphrase to secure an aegis storage?23:40
djszapi|winElleo: I am not getting it for random packages, it is all the time kdelibs.23:40
ElleoI think only x-fade or lbt are really in a position to work out what's actually going on there23:40
djszapi|winElleo: kdelibs built fine 2 weeks ago locally23:40
DocScrutinizerachipa: you don't get it23:40
achiparcg: correct23:41
djszapi|winI have never could manage it on OBS.23:41
Elleodjszapi|win: perhaps there's some sort of race condition going on with very large things like kdelibs?23:41
djszapi|winElleo: I was guessing more times about the memory23:41
Elleowith the package not finishing transfering before the build vm starts trying to do stuff?23:41
djszapi|win6 GB really seems low enough23:41
achipaDocScrutinizer: sorry, I'm too dumb23:41
Elleobut I can only make random uninformed guesses, I don't really know anything much about OBS's internals23:41
DocScrutinizerachipa: I'm not talking about traveling the net unprotected, I'm talking about vulnerabilities ob your local device are same category for a file with plain password and for an app decrypting a crypted password to send it over SSL right away23:42
djszapi|winElleo: I have 4 GB memory and it consumes a lot locally for kdelibs.23:42
Venemohow is the USB host mode coming?23:42
DocScrutinizernot at all Venemo23:42
djszapi|winElleo: with a build server like that where there are more paralel processes. I can merely imagine it is not enough23:42
VenemoDocScrutinizer :(23:42
DocScrutinizerand now bye for good23:42
achipaDocScrutinizer: as said, in a normal case, your app does not get to decrypt the password, it stays on the plugin/signon side of the wall23:43
Elleodjszapi|win: perhaps, I'd have thought it'd start building though (until it ran out of RAM and/or swap) rather than just giving rpc timeouts straight off23:43
macmaN# sqlite323:45
macmaNSQLite header and source version mismatch23:45
macmaN2010-12-07 20:14:09 a586a4deeb25330037a49df295b36aaf624d0f4523:45
macmaN2011-06-23 19:49:22 4374b7e83ea0a3fbc3691f9c0c936272862f32f223:45
achipaDocScrutinizer: think about google. If you make a youtube app, you use the google signon features, and your app does NOT see the google credentials23:45
ElleomacmaN: odd, that's just built straight from the debian package without any modification23:45
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* lbt just upped the memory / job on one of the workers from 4Gb to 6Gb23:46
lbtwhat we should do is ask people with 'large' pacages to notify us and we can direct them to a beefy worker23:46
lbtbut clearly we're not at that point yet23:46
djszapi|win_lbt: it blocks the whole KDE development process for N9(50). It is somewhat high priority bug23:47
macmaNThe following packages have unmet dependencies.23:47
macmaN  openvpn: Depends: openssl-blacklist (>= 0.4) but it is not installable23:47
macmaN           Depends: openvpn-blacklist but it is not installable23:47
ElleomacmaN: ah okay, I'll just build those quickly23:48
Elleothose are just runtime dependencies rather than build deps so I didn't run across them before23:48
Elleoif they're just blacklists they should be pretty simple to build though23:48
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lbtdjszapi|windows: yep... I've been working all weekend and X-fade has had a *gasp* holiday ... there's very little dedicated resource and a *lot* going on. We wish we had more time to help. Really.23:51
macmaNElleo: holding my breath now :>23:51
lbtcan you keep an eye on the build and see if it works or fails on any particular worker? kdelibs and the rpc timeout23:51
kimjulbt, would be nice if obs project/package config had "I need X amount of resources to build" fields..23:52
djszapi|windowslbt: I am not blaming you, do not read it that way. I am just trying to put its priority clear.23:52
lbtdjszapi|windows: yeah ... I guess I just feel responsible.... I want it to work better :)23:52
djszapi|windowslbt: How can I help with it ? My KDE dudes are waiting for some KDE apps development on this gadget :p23:52
lbtkimju: *nod* ... in general it's only for exceptional cases - and admins do that23:53
lbtdjszapi|windows: I will be trying to get more workers online next week - high prio for MeeGo IT23:53
djszapi|windowsI agree. It would not be nice to expose.23:53
djszapi|windowslbt: I think proper error messages would help also a lot23:54
lbtyes - OBS is actually very cool - but there are a *lot* of rough areas.23:54
djszapi|windowslbt: for instance, I can ping you when the compilation finished and maybe you can monitor the memory usage, I do not know...23:54
djszapi|windowsme as a Harmattan developer, I do not care about how much OBS rocks :)23:55
djszapi|windowsif it does not work for my use case ;)23:55
djszapi|windowsbut yes, it is a cool tool, I agree.23:55
djszapi|windowsall my respect =)23:55
lbtWhat would be nice is a user level script that reports memory usage23:56
lbtatop springs to mind23:56
djszapi|windowslbt: the problem is that oom would make a boooommm23:56
djszapi|windowsso that might be also not a good guess.23:56
Venemoso, why don't we just make a harmattan-extras on
djszapi|windowsVenemo: why not on OBS ?23:56
djszapi|windowssince that is what we discussed last time.23:57
Venemoit seems to me that the OBS doesn't exactly work.23:57
lbtVenemo: clearly that's not the case23:57
djszapi|windowslbt: 6 GB is not enough in my opinion.23:57
Venemoall I heard about it was complaints, so I didn't even bother with it myself23:57
djszapi|windowslbt: is there any chance to expand that ?23:57
lbtdjszapi|windows: yes... you can have 32Gb ... and 1 job at a time23:58
djszapi|windowsVenemo: your idea is totally irrelevant23:58
Venemothanks djszapi|windows23:58
ElleoVenemo: it works well for me (most of the time)23:58
djszapi|windowsVenemo: you would like to have a repository independently from OBS building.23:58
Venemowhat do you mean, most of the time?23:58
lbtVenemo: it's the usual problem... if you don't help us fix it, it won't get better.23:58
djszapi|windowsVenemo: it is really irrelevant to creating a repository23:58
Elleothere are intermittent problems now and then23:58
lbtThere are times (right now) when it has worse patches23:58
Elleosometimes vms don't talk to the system (and you just have to wait until it gets reattempted)23:59
Venemolbt, I'm incompetent about OBS, so I can't help you fix it23:59
lbtthe N900 CE project has been using it for months w/o any real issues23:59
Elleobut for the most part it works really nicely23:59
lbtVenemo: docs, tutorials...23:59
DocScrutinizerVenemo: see? that's why it won't get better any time soon :-P23:59
lbtVenemo: careful bug reports, analysis23:59
djszapi|windowsIt does not really make sense to create something different than OBS if there are quite a few packagers there with ready made packages.23:59

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