IRC log of #harmattan for Saturday, 2011-07-16

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* javispedro thanks god the n950 seems more robust than n900, because stock cable plug is quite... hard to unplug.		00:47
javispedro	*the n950 usb port..	00:47
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SpeedEvil	I'd be tempted to do the file thing.	00:49
SpeedEvil	Use a file to remove the sticky-up bits on the plug	00:50
javispedro	the cable seems el cheapo.	00:51
javispedro	were the n900 has four "sticky-up bits" this has two	00:51
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Venemo	hehe	01:42
mzanetti	Modifying a PageStack while it is busy freezes the complete application. Are there already any known workarounds for that?	01:53
mzanetti	Depending on the property "connected" I replace() the page on the pageStack. If I change a connection the property goes to disconnected and then to connected again.	01:54
mzanetti	This calls pageStack.replace() twice and freezes the app	01:55
mzanetti	is there a way to queue the property change as long the pagestack is busy?	01:56
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: javispedro: it's pretty unclear what are the sticky-up bits, so I'd not do this. Also it "fixes itself" really fast - at least did for me	02:03
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SpeedEvil	I mean carefully remove after examining closely, and ensure no spurs are left that could stick up	02:04
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: javispedro: it's pretty unclear what are the sticky-up bits, so I'd not do this. Also it "fixes itself" really fast - at least did for me	02:08
DocScrutinizer	some graphite applied by a smooth pencil may do miracles though	02:09
DocScrutinizer	NOT on the inside of the plug!	02:09
DocScrutinizer	anyway I concur the CA-179 is kinda crappy and I prefer the CA-101 each day	02:13
DocScrutinizer	got 4 of them ca-101 now, should suffice for regular use	02:13
DocScrutinizer	and yes, none of the 4 CA-101 (un-)mates that hard as the CA-179	02:14
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* SpeedEvil ponders claiming first 'harmattan game' by adding a link to a locally stored web-game.		02:29
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DocScrutinizer	WOOOW the proximity sensor on N950 does real distance	02:38
DocScrutinizer	I mean distance readings	02:38
ieatlint	nice	02:39
DocScrutinizer	starting with 27.06932 when hand is ~3 fingers distance (4cm)	02:40
ieatlint	what'd you use to access it?	02:40
DocScrutinizer	going up to 55.66716 when touching surface	02:40
DocScrutinizer	https://projects.developer.nokia.com/sensorgallery	02:41
SpeedEvil	neat	02:41
ieatlint	nice, yeah, i just went and looked at QProximitySensor and see that it will only return a boolean indicating if something "is close"	02:42
DocScrutinizer	and QCompass sensor widget isn't as broken as the compass app there	02:42
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: most of the sensors are abysmally poor	02:42
DocScrutinizer	by design	02:42
DocScrutinizer	in QtMobility	02:43
ieatlint	yeah, it also has instructions on how to get the real reading	02:43
ieatlint	with notes that the values are device specific	02:43
DocScrutinizer	QOrientation: no hysteresis at all, just braindamaged 1..6 for "current orientation is more loke"	02:43
DocScrutinizer	like*	02:43
DocScrutinizer	QIRProximitySensor	02:44
DocScrutinizer	~dict grue	02:47
infobot	Dictionary 'grue' n. [from archaic English verb for `shudder', as with fear] The grue was originated in the game {Zork} (Dave Lebling took the name from Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" fantasies) and used in several other {Infocom} games as a hint that you should perhaps look for a lamp, torch or some type of light source. Wandering into a dark area would cause the game to prompt you, "It is very dark. If you continue you are likely to be eaten by a grue." ...	02:47
DocScrutinizer	WTF is GrueSensor?	02:47
javispedro	omg, that is quite an invention	02:48
javispedro	probably the KILLER application of this device	02:48
javispedro	/me wants	02:48
ieatlint	"The Grue Sensor informs you of your chance of being eaten by a Grue."	02:49
javispedro	iPhone does not have that!	02:49
javispedro	neither crapdroid!	02:49
ieatlint	http://apidocs.meego.com/git-tip/qtmobility/sensors-grueplugin-gruesensor-cpp.html	02:49
DocScrutinizer	yeah but QtMobility has QGrueSensor and I wanna know what it's supposed to show	02:49
ieatlint	it's a demo on how to create your own sensors	02:50
javispedro	" A probability of 1 means you are currently being eaten."	02:50
javispedro	MAGNIFICUS!	02:50
DocScrutinizer	WTF	02:51
ieatlint	it's attached to the light sensor	02:51
ieatlint	cover it and your chance increases	02:52
ieatlint	for every second it's dark, you have a .1 chance more of being eaten, apparently	02:52
DocScrutinizer	not where I am - the chance there'snothing left for the next grue is >1	02:52
DocScrutinizer	i.e. the ALS won't notice much of a difference when I cover it	02:53
DocScrutinizer	I found it rather erratic this sensor behaves like Heissenberg: it always starts at 0 as soon as you look at it	02:54
javispedro	obviously, because you're alive.	02:54
DocScrutinizer	that's rather unusual for a sensor to influence the sensored value	02:55
javispedro	ah, you mean the ALS, not the grue one =)	02:55
DocScrutinizer	unless you go to quantum mechanics	02:55
javispedro	btw the sensors guys also can't properly create harmattan packages	02:56
DocScrutinizer	nah, I mean that gruesensor that always starts counting up from zero as soon as you start it	02:56
DocScrutinizer	that's quite obviously nonsense for virtually any kind of sensor	02:56
DocScrutinizer	that's why my first question was "what it's supposed to probe"	02:57
DocScrutinizer	as it was instantly clear this sensor is broken	02:57
javispedro	omg it installed	02:58
javispedro	oh.	02:58
DocScrutinizer	another broken by design QtMobility sensor	02:58
javispedro	more like, it started installing, then it hung.	02:58
DocScrutinizer	not much worse than the others	02:58
ieatlint	ooh, there's a battleship game up there with multiplayer via bluetooth	02:59
DocScrutinizer	hah	03:00
javispedro	ooooooh	03:01
javispedro	I just had that idea today.	03:01
javispedro	ieatlint: where?	03:01
ieatlint	https://projects.developer.nokia.com/battleships	03:01
javispedro	only harmattan though?	03:02
javispedro	baad.	03:03
ieatlint	apparently	03:03
javispedro	UNLESS there's another meegoconf soon.	03:03
ieatlint	yeah, i wonder why... if it uses qt, it should work fine anywhere	03:03
DocScrutinizer	ok, my magnetometer is definitely broken at best	03:08
DocScrutinizer	could it be? Nokia forgot to use a magnetically neutered speaker component - and vib motor as well?	03:10
SpeedEvil	have you found the raw x/y/z outputts?	03:10
DocScrutinizer	sure, javispedro provided a minimalistic python script some days ago, and sensorgallery has QMagnetometer	03:11
DocScrutinizer	both showing same results basically: a gigantic offset, and really shaky values that don't strictly correlate with orientation of device wrt to earth	03:12
SpeedEvil	Several things occur.	03:13
SpeedEvil	You're not ear any large metal objects - or is the building you're in made from concrete?	03:13
DocScrutinizer	I guess with massive integration over time, and offset calibration, you might get some meaningful result	03:13
SpeedEvil	ear	03:13
SpeedEvil	near	03:13
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: QCompass seemingly tries to provide something useful	03:14
SpeedEvil	I'd try it in the garden, or somewhere outside	03:14
javispedro	here it has around ~10º offset, but is consistent within itself	03:14
DocScrutinizer	the building has rather few metal in it - it's 150 years old	03:14
DocScrutinizer	I'm talking about offset in the 3 axis raw values	03:14
DocScrutinizer	the one does never go negative, for example	03:15
javispedro	but that's how it should be aiui	03:15
DocScrutinizer	how would one axis never go negative?	03:16
javispedro	ah yes, you always do all orientations =)	03:16
DocScrutinizer	sure	03:16
javispedro	depending on portrait/landscape qcompass has a different offset	03:17
DocScrutinizer	means there's a bias on the field that's fixed to the device and way huger than earth magnetic field	03:17
javispedro	so it's useless as an absolute value but works well enough as a relative	03:17
DocScrutinizer	I nevertheless wonder if the shaky part in the values maybe already is the effect I'm looking for to base my cablefinder on it, and it was way stronger than I might have thought	03:19
DocScrutinizer	I might want to dump the data to a file and run some statistics over it	03:21
DocScrutinizer	esp filters	03:21
DocScrutinizer	or better even FFT	03:21
DocScrutinizer	HAH	03:22
DocScrutinizer	or simply feed it to PA ;-P	03:22
SpeedEvil	I would try degaussing your device	03:24
SpeedEvil	After turning off ad removig the battery	03:24
SpeedEvil	Oh	03:24
SpeedEvil	Do not degauss the device when it's on	03:24
DocScrutinizer	anyway if vib motor has a moving permanent magnet inside, the whole compass thing is fsckd	03:24
DocScrutinizer	and vib motor has an extremely strong magnet	03:26
DocScrutinizer	at least in FreeRunner	03:26
SpeedEvil	yes	03:26
DocScrutinizer	you can almost pin the whole phone to a steel board at the wall	03:27
javispedro	I love how you need to frigging _pin_ the data rate slider to the _EXACT_ rate otherwise it goes back to 0Hz	03:28
DocScrutinizer	OK - speaker is it here	03:28
javispedro	in an animation that firstly looks cool but after the 37th makes you want threw phone.	03:29
javispedro	also: set slider to 40Hz in landscape, switch to portrait: slider disappears.	03:29
DocScrutinizer	duh, I thought you simply can not set datarate	03:29
DocScrutinizer	which sensor?	03:30
javispedro	magnetometer	03:30
javispedro	only 40Hz works.	03:30
javispedro	(and 0Hz... which is not really 0...)	03:30
DocScrutinizer	you can store steel nails at device backside where speaker sits	03:30
javispedro	ah, and 2Hz.	03:30
DocScrutinizer	friggin magnetometer chip has NO datarate at all	03:31
DocScrutinizer	also I just pushed the slider to a random position and it worked, unlike all other sensors I tested	03:32
javispedro	and the random position was 40? =)	03:32
DocScrutinizer	nope, more like 17	03:33
DocScrutinizer	iirc	03:33
javispedro	bzzt! nope	03:33
javispedro	(goes back to 0)	03:33
DocScrutinizer	incredible, it was 40 ;-P	03:33
javispedro	0,1,2,10,20,40	03:34
DocScrutinizer	first shot a hit	03:34
javispedro	worst slider widget ever.	03:34
javispedro	(but it's fun)	03:34
DocScrutinizer	oh, it slides back to 40 now when I set random 54	03:34
javispedro	this sensorsgallery is the most fun app in the phone now.	03:35
javispedro	interestingly enough, swiping out the camera app reveals it is not using an overlay color key like videos app	03:36
javispedro	and yet from a performance PoV I would not have realized.	03:37
DocScrutinizer	you might have thought 4th parameter in magnetometer is bool valid, but no, it's always 1 and sensor overload results in readout stalling	03:40
DocScrutinizer	so I wonder hat that 4th parameer might be	03:40
javispedro	it is actually bool valid	03:41
javispedro	"MROI"	03:41
DocScrutinizer	just another bug. I wonder if there's one sensor in QtM that's not flawed or buggy	03:43
javispedro	don't blame QtM, at least for the ones that provide raw data	03:43
DocScrutinizer	btw if you wondered: the magnetometer seems to sit "upside left" - quite close to the earpiece transducer (unless kbd opened), and "other side" of main camera	03:45
javispedro	seems that this is the same magnetometer as used on the playstation move	03:46
javispedro	so there's some RE around.	03:46
* DocScrutinizer wonders if that's a bad sign when he starts to consider portrait the normal orientation of the device		03:46
DocScrutinizer	datasheet for magmeter is available. Its actually a funny chip design	03:47
DocScrutinizer	the chip needs power-on cmd, does one readout and auto-powerdowns. You nevertheless can readout registers when powered down	03:48
DocScrutinizer	that's why I said "there is no datarate of magmeter chip"	03:48
DocScrutinizer	the arbitrary restriction in QMagnetometer is random BS	03:49
DocScrutinizer	actually I guess sysfs node read() blocks until chip completed a probe cycle	03:50
DocScrutinizer	not as stupid as it sounds, as the chip is really fast	03:51
DocScrutinizer	some 7ms iirc	03:51
DocScrutinizer	or was it 0.7?	03:51
DocScrutinizer	time for measurement: 7.30ms	03:54
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, hope we can fix that with some community-based improvements	04:52
GAN900	Portrait-primary is sucky.	04:52
rm_you	GAN900: still in UK	04:53
rm_you	rofl	04:53
GAN900	Yes	04:53
rm_you	how do they fail that hard	04:54
GAN900	fiferboy's appears to have fallen into the ocean somewhere.	04:54
rm_you	rofl	04:54
GAN900	I don't know.	04:54
rm_you	they MUST be either failing to scan things in right, or having system trouble	04:54
javispedro	GAN900: rm_you: it could be worse like that guy in f.m.c who says his order just dematerialized.	04:55
rm_you	T_T	04:55
javispedro	believe me when I say the device is not worth the wait!	04:56
* javispedro hides while laughing		04:56
rm_you	lol	04:56
* javispedro hits aegis again		05:00
javispedro	OH WHY I CANNOT INSTALL RPCBIND ON THIS THING	05:00
* javispedro SMASHES THING AGAINST THE WALL UNTIL ONLY AEGIS PURÉE REMAINS		05:00
* javispedro types "ME. WANTS. RPCBIND. !!!!" on terminal to see if omniscient aegis answers		05:04
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rm_you	i thought you could just turn off aegis on the dev machines	05:19
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javispedro	just watch the twitter feeds.	05:32
javispedro	noone has so far utterly defeated aegis.	05:32
DocScrutinizer	aegis is a proper fully armed TC implementation. It's probably easier to install a new jkernel than to neuter aegis in this one	05:33
javispedro	Package portmap: denied 'CAP::sys_rawio' -- origin '' does not allow it	05:34
javispedro	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo	05:34
javispedro	http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/	05:34
DocScrutinizer	LOL	05:35
DocScrutinizer	good one	05:35
GeneralAntilles	What happened to Open Mode?	05:37
javispedro	in docs dev mode and open mode are often confused	05:41
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: can you do uname -a on n950?	05:55
javispedro	or anyone	05:55
* javispedro just built zImage-2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112201 , pondering whether it is the correct one		05:55
javispedro	nah, instant panic	05:57
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DocScrutinizer	sure	05:58
DocScrutinizer	RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# uname -a	05:58
DocScrutinizer	Linux RM680 2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112201 #1 PREEMPT Wed Jun 1 18:17:45 EEST 2011 armv7l GNU/Linux	05:58
javispedro	so version is right :(	05:58
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: do I get it right you're already tackling kernel building and got to the point where it panics?	06:02
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: that's really promising	06:03
javispedro	not really :P	06:03
javispedro	there's a source, a default config, and I typed "make":	06:03
javispedro	s/:/.	06:04
DocScrutinizer	and that's enoug to make it panic? you installed it with new modules? I guess the hashes might not match anyway	06:04
javispedro	they shoulda.	06:04
Termana	Morning	06:05
DocScrutinizer	hmmm	06:05
DocScrutinizer	it's a new kernel, even if only uname -a has a different date, the hash will change	06:05
DocScrutinizer	for a kernel with changed hash the modules won't match	06:06
DocScrutinizer	my 2 cent	06:06
javispedro	there should be no hash	06:07
javispedro	there's only version string	06:07
javispedro	unless it's enabled in config.. hm..	06:07
javispedro	hm..	06:07
javispedro	CONFIG_MODULE_SRCVERSION_ALL=y	06:08
javispedro	CONFIG_MODULE_ELF_HASH=y (0 google hits)	06:08
DocScrutinizer	toldya	06:10
DocScrutinizer	that's a really ambitious project to get a new kernel running on that beast	06:11
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GeneralAntilles	Departed Facility in EAST MIDLANDS - UK EAST MIDLANDS - UK 03:53	06:35
GeneralAntilles	Sat there for 22 hours	06:36
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ieatlint	heh, "Failed to connect to remote themedaemon. Retrying in one second." and then repeating indefinitely every second when trying to launch my app	06:55
DocScrutinizer	remote themedaemon? WTF!?	06:55
ieatlint	the best part of working on new platforms is being one of the first people to get errors, so that google searches just give you the source repo as hits	06:55
ieatlint	yep.	06:56
ieatlint	no idea wtf that is	06:56
ieatlint	apparently part of libmeegotouch (this app is qml, qt and qt-mobility only)	06:56
ieatlint	i actually think it might be a permissions issue	06:56
DocScrutinizer	hey, never seen it this way - just the source repo, nice :-)	06:57
ieatlint	i ran into a qt-symbian error message one like that too	06:58
ieatlint	only had hits in gitorious	06:59
ieatlint	yep, was a permissions issue	06:59
ieatlint	i was being lazy and trying to run it as root	06:59
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dm8tbr	good moaning	09:25
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: btw: there is a lxr/mxr, http://mxr.meego.com/ it even features those beloved aegis things, but I think something is broken with the updating, so use with caution.	09:36
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Mece_	o/	10:32
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lcuk	dm8tbr, timeless was on meego a couple of days ago	11:16
lcuk	and him and lbt got it updating	11:16
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Venemo	morning harmattanites	11:28
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Venemo	anyone wanna try my little app?	11:50
Venemo	http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=26266&postcount=11 -> says it all	11:58
Venemo	and here is how to keep aegis at bay: http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=25848&postcount=4	11:58
macmaN	nice, got blueman connected to N950 BT DUN almost plugnplay	12:10
macmaN	(imagine airplug)	12:10
macmaN	linuxing teh internetz from teh car!	12:10
Venemo	macmaN :)	12:13
macmaN	blueman also worked doing PAN to n900 bnep0 so i gotta give thumbs up to the guy	12:14
mece	hey how do I autorotate stuff in Harmattan?	12:17
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Venemo	mece, my app autorotates pretty automatically	12:18
Venemo	without me needing to do anything about it	12:20
dm8tbr	lcuk: I know, I started the conversation	12:27
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mece	Venemo, what kind of app is it?	12:42
lcuk	dm8tbr, ++	12:45
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macmaN	hmm strange thing is n950 doesnt show internet connection when youre connected through bt dun	13:20
macmaN	in the status panel	13:21
Venemo	mece, a memory game	13:23
Venemo	http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip	13:24
mzanetti	Venemo: nice game :)	13:46
mzanetti	Venemo: the toolbar seems to be quite redundant...	13:46
mzanetti	Venemo: there are about 3 different actions but like 10 ways to access them	13:46
mzanetti	Venemo: and IMO the animation when you score should be tuned down a bit. It seems like flickering	13:47
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rZr	Venemo: European Union Public Licence, is this floss ?	14:13
rZr	Venemo: can i distribuate it in compiled form on my h rep ?	14:13
mzanetti	rZr: see LICENCE file section 2.4	14:21
rZr	looks good	14:22
mzanetti	rZr: you also need to provide "a machine-readable copy of the Souce Code [...] easily and freely accessible [...]"	14:25
mzanetti	rZr: where can I find the repo to see what else you a re hosting?	14:29
Venemo	mzanetti, thank you	14:32
Venemo	rZr, yes, you can.	14:32
Venemo	rZr, yes it is OSI approved	14:32
rZr	what about fsf ? :)	14:35
rZr	i am trying to rebuild it	14:35
gri	Venemo: What app do you have to test?	14:45
Venemo	gri, [12:24] <Venemo> http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip	14:45
Venemo	rZr, read the license, it's very short, and it's FOSS, yes	14:46
Venemo	mzanetti, the only redundant things are what're in the menu... I'll change that :)	14:50
mzanetti	Venemo: it also feels strange to have close button in a harmattan app	14:50
mzanetti	Venemo: and I think other platforms add a close button to each app themselves	14:51
Venemo	mzanetti, lol. I'm annoyed by the fact that there is no close button in apps	14:51
Venemo	mzanetti, so I did the css hack trick and I have close buttons now in some MTF apps	14:51
mzanetti	Venemo: sure, its just my opinion. I for one like the swipe thing	14:52
Venemo	mzanetti, me too, but I hate to be unable to close apps	14:52
mzanetti	Venemo: as far as I heard you should be able to close them by swiping from top to bottom soon	14:54
gri	Venemo: My girlfriend loves memory games, I'll have to delete it before she notices it :P	14:55
mzanetti	Venemo: the row and column settings don't work here but I guess that is work in progress.	14:56
gri	Also in other applications the "more" button shows the menu and hides the toolbar, here the toolbar stays on bottom	14:58
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Venemo	gri, hehehe	15:14
Venemo	mzanetti, I heard, but currently I can't	15:14
Venemo	mzanetti, they don't work if you are already in game, that is correct	15:14
Venemo	mzanetti, stop the game, then set them	15:14
Venemo	I nead to tweak that in my QML	15:15
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Venemo	mgedmin, ping	16:10
dm8tbr	https://projects.developer.nokia.com/home/project/explore#tab=recent - would be kind of interesting if there would be a harmattan category or is that what they mean by "MeeGo"	16:14
dm8tbr	WTH, 2 bible readers on the first page of the MeeGo listing...	16:15
Stskeeps	you'd be surprised at how big that market is	16:16
Stskeeps	people generally don't want to drag around bibles, easier on the mobile	16:17
Stskeeps	:P	16:17
Venemo	isn't the bible obsolete yet?	16:19
DocScrutinizer	Q-ran readers also very popular	16:19
Termana	Venemo, ha ha, going in for the kill there aren't you tiger? :p	16:20
Venemo	Termana :P	16:20
Venemo	I would have thought that after a few hundred years of doing that, people would be smarter than killing each other for some stuff in a book... but let's not go OT :P	16:20
* DocScrutinizer is slightly puzzled on that common habit		16:20
Venemo	soo... how do I remap the hw keyboard	16:21
Venemo	I wanna reassing some keys that currently don't do anything when pressed with Fn	16:21
DocScrutinizer	esp denying the fact that books are always written by humans is something that bewilders me	16:22
DocScrutinizer	and some of the oldest books have undergone several severe edits and censoring, also by humans with not always honest intentions. This is a provable fact	16:24
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, yeah	16:24
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, so, do you happen to know how to remap N950's hw kbd?	16:24
DocScrutinizer	same way you do that for N900? wild guess	16:25
Venemo	nope	16:26
DocScrutinizer	why? aegis?	16:27
Venemo	mgedmin told me something about it at a tile when I wasn't able to fully focus on IRC... the thing that I remember is one needs to tweak some XML file	16:27
DocScrutinizer	or have they massively changed the underlying gear	16:27
Venemo	dunno about the details	16:27
Venemo	I tried the same stuff that worked on N900, that did not work definitely	16:27
DocScrutinizer	well there are IRC logs all over the place	16:28
Venemo	he didn't tell me the details	16:28
DocScrutinizer	linux and keyboard - a long confusing and annoying story basically. Each time I'm finished with reading the last manpage/source to find out about some deatils, I already lost the complete picture and have to start all over	16:29
Venemo	this is true for almost every aspect of Linux	16:30
DocScrutinizer	I guess input methods have more layers than OSI	16:30
DocScrutinizer	see [2011-07-16 14:32:05] <DocScrutinizer> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/escapingsection.html 5.3 is epic	16:32
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Venemo	hmm	16:32
DocScrutinizer	read -s -N2 -t 0.001; read -s -N1 -t 0.001 WOWHAAcoughHA	16:33
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Venemo	lcuk, have you tried my humble little app yet?	16:35
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lcuk	Venemo, i have not. when i next ssh into n9 i will do	16:36
Venemo	okay, no need to hurry	16:37
javispedro	voice navigation in drive!	16:37
* javispedro is happy		16:37
Venemo	javispedro, srsly?	16:37
* lcuk is pondering a complex thingamibob on other machine		16:37
javispedro	yarlly!	16:37
Venemo	that sounds good :)	16:37
Venemo	If only we'd have landscape support	16:37
javispedro	we have landscape support -- in drive	16:38
javispedro	and ovimaps fwiw	16:38
Venemo	I'm talking about homescreens and contacts, music, settings, etc. apps	16:38
DocScrutinizer	meh, my bash doesn't know read -N1	16:38
Venemo	maps, messages, mail, etc. do support landscape	16:38
* javispedro is already totally disregarding the hwkb, too cumbersome..		16:39
lcuk	i think xv windows are being sent through compositor and using yuv->rgb on the powervr	16:39
Venemo	javispedro, srsly?	16:39
dm8tbr	contacts has fun problems if you edit a contact and then edit an entry with the kbd slid out	16:39
lcuk	sad panda because it means liqbase runs only as fast as on the n810!	16:39
Venemo	javispedro, it is a very nice keyboard... typing with vkb is a lot slower for me	16:39
javispedro	lcuk: there might be something about this, because videos are slower than on n900	16:39
javispedro	Venemo: not saying vkb is faster. it's just that hwkb requires two hands to slide	16:40
lcuk	javispedro, it also encounters bug 13084 when I use 854*480 video mode	16:40
MeeGoBot	Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13084 maj, Medium, ---, carsten, ASSI, [n900] Horizontal tearing with xvimagesink	16:40
Venemo	javispedro, indeed.	16:40
Venemo	javispedro, maybe I used my N900 too much? :P	16:40
javispedro	hum, tearing.	16:41
lcuk	javispedro, gatepost alignment error	16:42
javispedro	lcuk: do you have a liqbase build for harmattan around?	16:42
lcuk	on the n900-ce, it reads 801 pixels per row	16:42
javispedro	haha	16:42
lcuk	javispedro, only thusfar used the n900 builds	16:42
javispedro	then that's quite worse than tearing	16:42
lcuk	happily they work	16:42
javispedro	n900ce builds?	16:43
lcuk	but encounter problems	16:43
lcuk	maemo	16:43
javispedro	oh.	16:43
lcuk	ie this tearing	16:43
javispedro	so you do not have hardfp vs softfp problems?	16:43
Venemo	javispedro, if he doesn't use floats, why would he?	16:43
lcuk	i did not try to use deb package on my n900-ce	16:43
lcuk	i built ondevice directly	16:43
javispedro	ah, ok :)	16:43
lcuk	so would not know about hard/soft fp	16:44
javispedro	Venemo: dynamic loader is too stupid to know about whether a function has fp calls	16:44
javispedro	s/function/symbol	16:44
Venemo	mhm	16:44
javispedro	that's all it sees, symbol and symbol names.	16:44
javispedro	so it can either refuse to bind ALL symbols from different FP ABI files, or it can just blindly accept them all	16:46
javispedro	my guess is that it will do the former :)	16:46
Venemo	I have no idea	16:46
DocScrutinizer	yeah, puzzling issue	16:46
Venemo	however, I managed to get my game into a bugged state...	16:46
DocScrutinizer	windowesque	16:46
DocScrutinizer	so, FWIW - N950 charges reasonably "OKish" from non-D+-_short USB wallwarts	16:48
javispedro	WHAT THE HEL	16:49
DocScrutinizer	charging battery with 80some mA (when idle and screen blanked), to keep it at ~90%	16:49
javispedro	# portmap -h	16:49
javispedro	usage: portmap [-dfv] [-t dir] [-i address]	16:49
javispedro	rpcbind _works_ today, FOR NO REASON AT ALL!	16:49
DocScrutinizer	~messybox	16:49
infobot	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	16:49
javispedro	I DID NOTHING!	16:50
DocScrutinizer	HAHA	16:50
javispedro	so it is true there's an omniscient Aegis god.	16:50
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: today the day-of-month is a 2^x	16:50
* javispedro makes a note to sacrificate some lambs so that God allows me to run more programs.		16:51
GAN900	Still stuck in the UK	16:51
DocScrutinizer	WTF GAN900	16:51
javispedro	GAN900: probably will miss Monday then :(	16:51
DocScrutinizer	there are no volcanoes hindering airplane starts in EU right ATM	16:52
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: curse homeland security - I bet the device has to undergo in-depth inspection for potentially hazardous physical and logical content	16:53
GAN900	Doubt it.	16:54
DocScrutinizer	after all it's addressed at you ;-P	16:54
GAN900	DHL incompetence seems the likelier.	16:54
DocScrutinizer	DHL incompetence is notorious too, yes	16:55
* javispedro removes man of faith hat, puts on his researcher hat and tries to understand what the *** happened with aegis.		16:55
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, doesn't Aegis count as hazardous logical content?	16:55
Venemo	javispedro, didn't you set your Aegis to relaxed mode or whatever?	16:55
javispedro	I was trying to install rpcbind	16:56
javispedro	the NFS portmapper	16:56
javispedro	s/NFS/RPC	16:56
javispedro	this must run as root because it opens ports < 1000	16:56
javispedro	so of course aegis refuses it like there's no tomorrow.	16:57
javispedro	well, yesterday. today it ran it.	16:57
javispedro	albeit I'm noticing it still does not allow it to open listen sockets.	16:57
Mek	hmm, I managed to get my n950 in a reboot-loop...	16:58
javispedro	not hard.	16:58
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Venemo	xD	16:59
javispedro	oh, interesting.	16:59
javispedro	aegis removed portmap user and group from /etc/passwd	16:59
Venemo	aegis is pure evil	17:00
Venemo	what's the whole point of it?	17:00
javispedro	but this might be the reason it works	17:00
aapo	Hello, I have N950, but I really do not know what I have signed about NDA. I saw one speculation thread on TMO, but is there any 'official' simple English (or even simple Finnish) list what I can publicly say about it?	17:02
lcuk	++ Nokia Design, N950 can stand up in portrait mode with the keyboard open	17:03
Venemo	lcuk, lol.	17:03
SpeedEvil	aapo: you have the NDA - you just don't understand it, or you don't have the NDA.	17:03
javispedro	lcuk: :D	17:03
lcuk	-- for location of the USB port to allow making a proper charging dock	17:03
Venemo	aapo, you can retrieve it from Nokia site	17:03
Venemo	lcuk, doesn't it annoy you to great length when a portrait-only app opens while the keyboard is slid out?	17:03
lcuk	no	17:03
Venemo	it disturbs the flow of my work when it does that	17:04
aapo	SpeedEvil: I clicked same default long text than any others too, but I do not understand it enough to feel comfortable	17:04
SpeedEvil	ah	17:04
Venemo	aapo, go to the site where you ordered the N950 and you will find it there	17:04
aapo	Venemo: yes, but I think I do not understand it	17:05
DocScrutinizer	aapo: not even Nokia understands it, evidently	17:06
Venemo	aapo, which part?	17:06
Venemo	aapo, there are two important points in it.	17:06
Venemo	aapo, -> you play €500 if you lose/destroy/etc it	17:07
Venemo	s/play/pay	17:07
SpeedEvil	= get phone insurance	17:07
javispedro	also, look at this IRC log, if there's something we could not say we've probably already said it =)	17:07
aapo	a) if I get something running on it, can I take video and image and post it on my blog?	17:07
Venemo	aapo, -> you are forbidden to pubilicize any deficiencies of the device and its software which come from its pre-release nature	17:07
Venemo	aapo, you can publicize good points, you can take pics, etc.	17:08
Venemo	aapo, but you can NOT make blog post about how crap it is	17:08
aapo	venemo, ok. Can I report any challenges I encounter?	17:08
SpeedEvil	In order for that clause to apply, wouldn't the device need to be planned to be released?	17:09
aapo	can I speak about bugs? e.g. in nano, which is not meant for end-users?	17:09
Venemo	aapo, I think so...	17:09
Venemo	SpeedEvil, the software will be.	17:09
Venemo	aapo, not sure. if I were you, I would be very light on mentioning bugs	17:09
Termana	javispedro, and that allows anyone else who agreed to the agreement to talk about it, under the clauses that allow public information to be discussed	17:10
Termana	7. The foregoing obligations shall not apply to any Information which	17:10
Termana	(a) is publicly available at the time of disclosure or later becomes publicly available through no fault of the Receiving Party;	17:10
aapo	venemo: ok.	17:10
Venemo	indeed	17:10
aapo	what is place to report bugs (if they are meant to be hidden of public)?	17:10
Termana	aapo, you don't report bugs.	17:11
SpeedEvil	In general, they are reportedly not wanting reports.	17:11
SpeedEvil	As the software is a _very_ old version.	17:11
Venemo	it is >5 weeks old	17:11
Venemo	so they probably fixed your bug by now	17:11
aapo	termana, how they get fixed then?	17:11
javispedro	though, http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/enter_bug.cgi	17:11
javispedro	at least for SDK bugs	17:11
javispedro	.	17:11
javispedro	also, device bugs: http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/buglist.cgi?product=MeeGo%201.2%20Harmattan&component=Device&resolution=--- =)	17:12
Termana	aapo, there are several ways to answer that question, but, the same way as if we weren't being given devices - the team that's working on it will need to discover it.	17:13
Termana	If they haven't already and fixed it	17:13
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: the fork happened quite some time before those 5 weeks you mentioned	17:14
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, oh, right. you already mentioned once or twice	17:14
Venemo	mewants new sw image	17:14
* javispedro thinks that generally, one should not worry much about the NDA unless one works for engadget, and that in fact, bugs might be filled.		17:16
aapo	another topic: what is state of 'extras-devel for harmattan'? I understand concept of own PPA, but how about one single place for (needed) community made libraries?	17:16
* DocScrutinizer thinks Nokia has no manpower to assign to triaging bugs filed against a months-old fork of an OS that seen ~3000 bugfixes since that fork		17:17
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: I think you're overstimating the amount of bugfixing work that can be done in a month.	17:17
aapo	I can see two packages on: http://repo.pub.meego.com/repositories/MeeGo/1.2/Harmattan/Apps-testing/armel/	17:18
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: my current opinion is that whatever image is the most recent will not be that different from ours.	17:18
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: no estimations in my rationale	17:18
javispedro	except of course it will not have all the "preparations" that have been done for ours	17:18
javispedro	(search for all those "-dadd" packages)	17:18
SpeedEvil	Unless they're doing more UI stuff	17:18
SpeedEvil	that they don't want to leak to the proles.	17:18
Venemo	javispedro, "-dadd"?	17:19
SpeedEvil	Which seems likely.	17:19
piggz	hi ppl....who has synced with google over mfe? im not getting my contacts in	17:19
javispedro	so, to sum it up: I say file a bug if you want to see it changed before PR1.1 .	17:19
javispedro	and even if you do, you're probably late already.	17:19
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DocScrutinizer	right	17:20
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javispedro	Venemo: in dpkg -l, lots of dadd packages, which as I found while removing the developer edition branding means sth like "developer edition addin"	17:20
Venemo	aaah	17:21
DocScrutinizer	I think there is a way more recent firmware image for N9 and for nokia internals, and we just may hope we eventually will participate	17:21
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, maybe if we bug some guys from Nokia on this channel, they may leak it to us	17:21
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: recent, sure. different, on the other hand...	17:21
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: konttori clearly said "your version lacks the ~3000 bugfixes we have in the recent image since fork"	17:22
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: check #maemo chanlogs	17:23
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-07-13.log.html#t2011-07-13T19:14:46	17:23
piggz	im not keen on just how tich the usb cable is...is the port more secure than the n900?	17:26
DocScrutinizer	yeah, I linked to the original statement of konttori there - it puts my statement about fork happening much earlier a bit on question, but it says "3000 bugs fixed, so yours is far from reality"	17:26
DocScrutinizer	piggz: yes, the port is a thru-hole component and won't come out unless you tear the PCB in two pieces	17:28
DocScrutinizer	at least that's what I think to have seen, with magnifying glass	17:29
piggz	DocScrutinizer: thank goodness :D ...... ive always been very careful with the n900, knowing about the problem	17:29
piggz	the cable that came with the n900 is a slighly looser fit in the n950, compared to the one with the n950	17:29
DocScrutinizer	yes, the CA-179 is crap	17:30
Venemo	hm, is it a problem if I've used N900's cable with N950 so far?	17:30
DocScrutinizer	I prefer the CA-101	17:30
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: the problem is you didn't notice how crappy CA-179 is	17:31
* javispedro 's n950 hostname : "harmy"		17:31
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, that is right, I did not notice it is crappy	17:31
DocScrutinizer	yours, or stock?	17:31
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: yours, stock is the usual Nokia-etc	17:31
DocScrutinizer	:-)	17:31
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: how's kernel building coming along?	17:32
javispedro	well ,maybe I should retry what I did yesterday today considering Aegis seems to be in a better mood.	17:32
DocScrutinizer	hehehe	17:32
DocScrutinizer	maybe	17:32
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, why is it crappy?	17:34
javispedro	oooh	17:35
javispedro	aegis is today VERY workable	17:35
javispedro	it just granted me CAP::net_bind_service	17:36
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: how did yu bribe it?	17:38
javispedro	DocScrutinizer:	17:39
javispedro	http://pastebin.com/3KtzcnEf	17:39
aapo	have somebody already bricked+flashed N950? Does it work? Is this right tool: https://www.developer.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/db230178-aa63-4c73-ba7f-20930da13cad/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers.html	17:41
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javispedro	and... portmapper working!	17:50
javispedro	I wonder if there's a list around specyfing which credentials a "developer" package is able to request.	17:51
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: where do you implant that magic spell?	17:55
DocScrutinizer	aapo: yes, and yes	17:55
javispedro	.deb package	17:55
DocScrutinizer	aapo: and works as advertised	17:56
aapo	DocScrutinizer: thanks, good to know	17:56
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: good question	17:56
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: the infamous Nokia master public signatures are in /var/lib/aegis/domains	17:57
SpeedEvil	Someone should make a distributed public key cracking app. :)	17:58
javispedro	oh	17:58
javispedro	you can edit this file in develsh mode	17:58
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: aiui there's absolutely no use in editing it, as it probably needs a signature from same private key as the root cert in ROM	18:00
javispedro	hum	18:00
javispedro	it's not in aegis hashed files list.	18:00
javispedro	either way I do not know how to sign packages at all for the time being.	18:01
javispedro	hashed files list is in /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist	18:01
javispedro	aiui, this get loaded into the kernel during very early boot	18:02
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: a mount is very enlightening	18:02
DocScrutinizer	rhe lines more to the bottom ;-)	18:03
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javispedro	uh	18:03
DocScrutinizer	aegisfs on /etc/ssl/certs	18:03
javispedro	my passwords are on there.	18:03
Venemo	but, srsly? why Aegis?	18:04
Venemo	why isn't SELinux enough?	18:04
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: that's a question "beyond the scope of this channel"	18:04
javispedro	found it	18:04
javispedro	found the list of credentials granted to devs	18:05
javispedro	it's on /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf	18:05
javispedro	aegis-developer-unknown-source-policy	18:05
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, humm	18:05
javispedro	full list:	18:06
javispedro	http://pastebin.com/KPX88Sgh	18:06
javispedro	so that's all you can grant to a non-nokia package	18:06
javispedro	everything else, SORRY!.	18:06
javispedro	specially note no setuid/setgid, so forget about daemons that drop privileges that way.	18:07
flux	javispedro, hmm, so sshd works only because it's from nokia?	18:09
flux	javispedro, what does it mean to have ie. UID::user there?	18:11
DocScrutinizer	I just had a very comfortingly thought: Nokia always messed sth up with configuration/packaging/maintenance of their maemo system. So why should they get everything "right" with aegis? And it's an immanent property of such a chain-of-trust architecture that one single point of failure compromises the whole security. IOW find a single ill-configured manifest and you "rooted aegis" - once you fully understand how to mess with it in	18:11
DocScrutinizer	any way you like	18:11
javispedro	yes, sshd is "com.nokia.maemo.system-services"	18:11
javispedro	and thus has chown, fsetid, setuid, setgid granted	18:11
Stskeeps	does any derived apps have the same? :P	18:12
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: there's plenty of stuff about R&D signatures, which I'm starting to guess it's the way to enable "open mode	18:12
javispedro	"	18:12
flux	from security point of view I guess it doesn't matter a lot. you can just drop all priviledges? or will you still be able to modify files as root?	18:12
DocScrutinizer	even better: aiui there's no revoke lists or anything like that	18:13
javispedro	Stskeeps: I do not know how inheriting credentials works, but develsh has all of the credentials and I couldn't spawn from it a portmap that did setgid(daemon);	18:13
Stskeeps	:nod:	18:13
Stskeeps	is it just me or is the voices of Drive horribly distorted?	18:15
DocScrutinizer	honestly this friggin aegis thing either has to vanish, or somebody @ nokia damn publish a howto for it	18:15
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: heh, I'm sure someone @ nokia is now saying "you should have payed MORE attention to aegis talks!" ;)	18:15
javispedro	"but I though you weren't that serious!"	18:15
javispedro	"YES WE WERE!"	18:16
DocScrutinizer	I opted for developing on linux, NOT on aegis	18:16
Stskeeps	don't worry, we won't have aegis in meego.com CE	18:16
Stskeeps	:P	18:16
Venemo	is Aegis a Nokia development?	18:16
Stskeeps	we'll just be using the TPM chip to randomly take pictures of you and your loved ones in compromised situations	18:16
DocScrutinizer	basically yes	18:16
Stskeeps	to finance the development team ;)	18:16
javispedro	that team will soon be psychopathic if you look at geek's "compromised" situations photos ;)	18:17
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: the aegis flavour seems a Nokia variant of the larger age old notorious security framework/TC concept	18:18
javispedro	flux: (UID::user) dunno so far, maybe accessing files owned by user or similar.	18:19
javispedro	what I know for sure is that CAP::* maps to linux capabilities 1:1	18:19
flux	so, does aegis help? I'm guessing for example the web browser or mail agents won't have sufficiently reduced access permissions to remove the ability to do some damage..	18:19
DocScrutinizer	""sorry team, no money here, no matter how unpleasant the photos you got. But I can share some of that pizza I stole, do you like?""	18:19
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, but what is the point of it?	18:19
DocScrutinizer	~aegis	18:19
infobot	from memory, aegis is http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism	18:19
piggz	ahh, atleast, that was a monumantal delay...i thought id proken the rss feeds app as it wasnt starting, but 30 seconds later it fired up	18:20
Venemo	thx	18:20
* javispedro notes that you _COULD_ implement an android-like permission system -- "would you like to allow RandomHackerApplication to read your address book?" -- on top of aegis		18:20
javispedro	but so far, I see no UI for that, and instead if (comes_from_nokia) allow_everything()	18:21
DocScrutinizer	sure, you could	18:21
javispedro	maybe Ovi will have some of that.	18:21
DocScrutinizer	honestly I'm NOT willing to become an aegis expert. Gimme a 2 pages mini-howto, with all the magic incantations listed there, and I may reconsider sending back this aegis coffing with the tag "USELESS CRAP"	18:22
DocScrutinizer	s/coffing/coffin/	18:23
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: honestly I'm NOT willing to become an aegis expert. Gimme a 2 pages mini-howto, with all the magic incantations listed there, and I may reconsider sending back this aegis coffin with the tag "USELESS CRAP"	18:23
piggz	im surprised how much looks familar when compared to n900ce..it kinda is good to know some things are shared	18:24
javispedro	familiar wasn't a Gtk+ distro?	18:24
javispedro	ah	18:24
javispedro	sorry, misparsed.	18:24
DocScrutinizer	alternatively give me a true developer environment where aegis is completely eradicated	18:24
piggz	heh	18:24
Venemo	couldn't one just remove it from the kernel and be done with it?	18:25
lcuk	i don't mind aegis	18:25
lcuk	once things are installed it prevents random single file updates	18:25
Venemo	lcuk, it prevents DocScrutinizer from developing usb hostmode for us	18:25
javispedro	I _want_ aegis, as long as I'm in control.	18:25
Venemo	javispedro ++	18:25
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: you obviously missed last 30min as well as previous chats about how aegis is spoiling every devel's day	18:26
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, find out how to update the sha hash	18:26
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: NO I WONT!	18:26
* Stskeeps yawns		18:26
DocScrutinizer	I am not in for learning/hacking FSCKNG aegis!	18:26
lcuk	i enjoyed learning about it	18:26
lcuk	and made a deb package in fremantle scratchbox to cure issue	18:27
DocScrutinizer	that's your cup of tea	18:27
Venemo	lcuk, maybe you could help DocScrutinizer with it then?	18:27
lcuk	package up your file and see if aegis will let it update?	18:27
javispedro	DocScrutinizer does not even want to build a deb ;)	18:27
DocScrutinizer	javispedro tried to build a stock unchanged kernel yesterday, flashed it ->instant FAIL, panic	18:28
javispedro	indeed.	18:28
DocScrutinizer	so WHAT THE F***!?	18:28
Venemo	there is a 110k+ LoC diff between Maemo 6 kernel and stock kernel with the same version	18:28
flux	docscrutinizer, so, it booted, but failed to mount root?	18:29
javispedro	it was stock harmattan kernel	18:29
lcuk	what is this "kernel" thing anyway, do I need it, can't you just uninstall it and run harmattan? :P	18:29
Stskeeps	javispedro: deb or manual flashing?	18:29
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: FU	18:29
flux	docscrutinizer, I mean, if it starts, isn't that like that the game is won already?	18:29
javispedro	Stskeeps: -k -l -b, but built from the src package.	18:29
Stskeeps	javispedro: what message did you get?	18:29
Stskeeps	and were you in developer mode?	18:29
javispedro	(dev mode) yes, and no message at all other than rapidly blinking led then shutdown.	18:30
javispedro	this was stock config, so not even console FB.	18:30
*** rlinfati has joined #harmattan		18:30
javispedro	DocScrutinizer pointed that I did not rebuild the modules, I did not thought that the vermagic had changed,	18:30
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: sorry, but I'm losing my countenance	18:31
javispedro	but seemingly due to aegis kernel has some more "strict" hasing (CONFIG_MODULE_ELF_HASH?")	18:31
Stskeeps	javispedro: i'll ask around, fairly sure that's supposed to work	18:31
Stskeeps	javispedro: well, at least booting your own kernel and rootfs	18:32
javispedro	the key here is "your own rootfs"	18:32
javispedro	I was trying to boot Harmattan.	18:32
*** djszapi has joined #harmattan		18:32
Stskeeps	right, but even that	18:32
javispedro	(because I bet N950ce works ;) )	18:32
javispedro	and that if you installed aegis there, accli -I would say "Device mode: OPEN" :)	18:33
djszapi	Hi! Does anybody know where I could download the libncursesw5-dev package if it is possible ? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ -> I did not find it here.	18:33
Venemo	any news about FMTX/FMRX in N950?	18:33
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, it was understood that aegis would be on the device	18:33
Stskeeps	i'd (personally) enable consolefb just to see what's going on	18:33
lcuk	and the n950-ce build is coming	18:33
lcuk	which has no such aegis	18:33
lcuk	and is meego pure	18:33
Venemo	lcuk, it seems that DocScrutinizer doesn't care about meego	18:33
djszapi	I do not think that is good if something has no security...	18:33
lcuk	djszapi, I agree, i found out about the install permissions thing quite early on	18:34
djszapi	There was an aegis-like smack kernel implementation for meego, but they dropped it.	18:34
lcuk	it is a nice thing actually knowing that files are only coming from packages	18:34
djszapi	I think the Harmattan security is the best ever :)	18:35
djszapi	That was also the feedback from Android guys.	18:35
javispedro	I'll say that when I see the "Application wants to open Address Book, allow?"	18:35
javispedro	until that, this is more DRM-like than security-like.	18:35
dm8tbr	I think it has merits as long as you are able to control it if you really own the device	18:35
dm8tbr	e.g. install an own signing certificate that you can use for development etc	18:36
rlinfati	the flasher can reboot the n950 if it's in pc_suite (ovi) mode :S	18:36
djszapi	javispedro: DRM has been completely dropped...	18:36
djszapi	quite a while ago.	18:37
flux	rlinfati, isn't that like a feature?	18:37
Stskeeps	heh, nice feature	18:37
dm8tbr	drm in portable devices is dead	18:37
rlinfati	flux, not for me.... i run the all-in-one flasher to extract the firmware.... and it's reboot my phone and flash-it !!	18:37
flux	rlinfati, so how is flasher supposed to work, if you don't enter the flash mode?	18:38
Venemo	hm	18:38
flux	rlinfati, hm, how is the firmware extracted? from the device?	18:39
djszapi	dm8tbr: I agree with you about that the usability is also very important. However what is on the meego front, selinux, that is far away from usability pov.	18:39
flux	someone should do a writeup on how selinux and aegis differ from each other :)	18:39
dm8tbr	djszapi: selinux is a pain to configure I've heard, dunno if that would work well enough for embedded	18:40
rlinfati	run Linux_OCF_22-6_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin and see /tmp/selfextracted....	18:40
djszapi	flux: there is	18:40
flux	djszapi, cool! you know the url?	18:40
djszapi	dm8btr: yeah it has been very hard and Linus accepted a new kernel approach :)	18:40
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: so WTF do devels need a "protected" devise??????	18:40
djszapi	is this question serious ?	18:40
DocScrutinizer	YES	18:40
djszapi	well, I would not like to use my data and having the part of other cheats that happened quite soonish with windows systems.	18:41
djszapi	* to lose my data	18:41
DocScrutinizer	there's a devel-mode and a "normal" mode - you'd thing devel mode should just completely KILL aegis	18:41
piggz	becuase you need to devel/test on a framework that is similar to the consumer device too	18:41
djszapi	even if I develop an application.	18:41
DocScrutinizer	think*	18:41
DocScrutinizer	omg	18:42
* rlinfati reading /usr/include/cellular-qt/CellularQt/networkcell.h		18:42
djszapi	I would never use devel mode that...	18:42
djszapi	* then	18:42
djszapi	however it might kill most of it, though.	18:42
DocScrutinizer	piggz: seen my comment one line above about that mode switching?	18:42
djszapi	What is wrong about the open mode ?	18:42
Venemo	SELinux _can_ be turned off...	18:42
piggz	DocScrutinizer: yeah, just after i wrote it ;)	18:42
djszapi	that is the best feature of it :)	18:42
Venemo	lol	18:42
javispedro	djszapi: there's nothing wrong, but _how to enter open mode???_	18:42
djszapi	that is the default...	18:43
djszapi	on the N950 devices.	18:43
Venemo	OMG	18:43
javispedro	nope	18:43
Venemo	if this is open mode, what is the closed mode?	18:43
javispedro	# accli -I	18:43
javispedro	Current mode: normal	18:43
javispedro	this is closed mode.	18:43
Venemo	mhm	18:43
djszapi	javispedro: did you also check the settings ?	18:43
Venemo	isn't there some kernel parameter or something?	18:43
javispedro	the settings is what seems to be called "developer mode", which grants a reduced set of permissions to the "" source (aka developer source)	18:44
javispedro	but this set of credentials does not even include setgid.	18:44
javispedro	and obviously not a way to load kernel modules.	18:44
javispedro	ie I cannot remove the "seal" bit from aegis, and put it in non-enforcing mode	18:44
djszapi	you can grant that kind of permission via a manifest file.	18:44
javispedro	nope	18:44
djszapi	why not ? (I could)	18:45
javispedro	because it is "" source, and CAP::setgid is not granted to SRC:.	18:45
djszapi	mmm	18:45
*** NIN101 has joined #harmattan		18:45
javispedro	Package portmap: denied 'CAP::setgid' -- origin '' does not allow it	18:46
djszapi	javispedro: is aegis-exec available ? (I do not have a device by hand)	18:46
javispedro	yes	18:46
lcuk	one question, if I install a fart app and it gets restricted, does it become trapped wind?	18:46
djszapi	you can grant that way permission to the processes.	18:46
javispedro	last time I tried that we ended up bricking DocScrutinizer's device	18:46
* DocScrutinizer shakes head, deeply depressed about the indiscriminate hype of aegis/SF that some people display here, esp those who obviously haven't really looked into how it works wnd what it means for developers		18:46
flux	I think it was explained here that aegis-exec doesn't actually grant any priviledges, it rather drops them?	18:47
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, mjority of developers can install/update/remove packages	18:47
javispedro	djszapi: this is what happened when we tried to grant setgid to bash: http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10170	18:47
* djszapi is checking :)		18:47
Venemo	lcuk, Aegis prevents the SDK from implementing the "skip packaging step" feature (best feature for Maemo5)	18:47
Venemo	lcuk, and this makes debugging my app a very clumsy process	18:48
djszapi	yeah, you can remove the malfunction entry after reboot, but this is odd.	18:48
lcuk	Venemo, i understand	18:48
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: btw, how did you install that bash package? from Nokia repo iirc?	18:48
djszapi	Venemo: not sure what you are doing, but I did not feel anything special while debugging my app.	18:48
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: yup	18:48
Venemo	djszapi, do you know what happens when you click on the Run button in Qt Creator?	18:49
javispedro	either way, the fact that we already have two persons that are surprised to see that Aegis is "that restrictive" to us makes me thing there's something that has not been de/activated on our images :S	18:49
javispedro	*think ;P	18:49
javispedro	(and should have)	18:51
djszapi	Venemo: nope, I do not use QtCreator, but someone was complaining about that it worked without QtCreator but not with that. Some dbus related application.	18:52
lcuk	gah	18:52
lcuk	the calendar whole screen kinetics is nudged by swipe	18:52
Venemo	djszapi, well, basically Qt Creator builds a .deb package every time I click on Run, which means that I basically lose a minute of my life every time I run my app.	18:52
djszapi	javispedro: well, meego was always much worse on N900	18:52
Venemo	djszapi, people claim it's because Aegis prevents just copying over the binary and executing it	18:53
lcuk	Venemo, no you gain a minute to think of the next step	18:53
djszapi	DocScrutnizier: I think the worse hype is that it is sold as a complete meego system	18:53
DocScrutinizer	there is definitely no use whatsoever in protecting developers from their own mess. Please stop even thinking about that - rather give us a developer- aka open-mode that's really _completely_ open. If anybody feels threatened by this, he's a) no developer, and b) not understanding that he can implement additional restrictions to his liking	18:53
Venemo	lcuk, I know the steps.	18:53
lcuk	Venemo, sure	18:53
Venemo	lcuk, I usually do before I begin coding :)	18:53
lcuk	i say the same thing and at some parts of development	18:53
djszapi	Venemo: that is actually true, you cannot run your own binary, that is why this SDK is existing....	18:53
lcuk	that delay between code/test/modify cycle is important	18:53
djszapi	there is a serious hash calculation (integrity protection) in the background.	18:54
rlinfati	any tips to use maps ? i can not login (service unavailable )	18:54
lcuk	and even extra seconds is bad	18:54
lcuk	vs whole minutes	18:54
* lcuk really does understand ;)		18:54
Venemo	djszapi, building a package takes a long time and it ruins the debugging experience	18:54
flux	what the approach prevents as well if just having the .py on the device and developing it there	18:54
flux	completely eliminating any delay induced by even copying the file	18:54
Venemo	djszapi, WP7 is an equally (if not more) closed platform, and still, VS can make my app run on the device instantly	18:54
djszapi	Venemo: well you should use cmake	18:54
djszapi	if it is that big issue for you.	18:54
Venemo	djszapi, while Qt Creator can't.	18:55
flux	of course, any programs that can be run through an interpreter can avoid the signature checking..	18:55
djszapi	Venemo: complain to QtCreator	18:55
javispedro	flux: I use a NFS mount to mount from device my host computer, so it's like if both computers are the same ;)	18:55
Venemo	djszapi, I opened a bug. :)	18:55
djszapi	Venemo: you can also run an own script which updates the binary hash	18:55
mzanetti	Venemo: I just hit a floating point exception in your app when clicking the play button in your app.	18:55
djszapi	if it is /really/ that big problem for you.	18:55
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: who are you to teach us about important cycles in development?	18:55
lcuk	djszapi, Venemo is highly active hacker and has wide experience developing and packaging cross platform	18:55
djszapi	Other than that I guess the developer mode should enable you to update binary and run it without packaging	18:55
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, ?	18:55
djszapi	Venemo: the problem is that you do not have proper source origin	18:56
lcuk	i was talking with Venemo	18:56
DocScrutinizer	<lcuk> Venemo, no you gain a minute to think of the next step	18:56
javispedro	aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec does enable you to run unsigned binaries	18:56
javispedro	but only as user	18:56
djszapi	this way, you should use the developer mode, but do not forget the image is slightly old on that device. Not sure how much it concern on the aegis implementation	18:56
javispedro	not root, for some reason (not totally understood yet)	18:56
DocScrutinizer	<lcuk> that delay between code/test/modify cycle is important	18:56
Venemo	well the point is	18:56
djszapi	javispedro: root would not make sense	18:57
Venemo	when I make a single line modification in my QML, I want to know INSTANTLY the result	18:57
Venemo	the required compile time is 0	18:57
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, it was conversation and agreement with him, wassup with that?	18:57
djszapi	root is not that "approach" like with the general POSIX capability approach	18:57
Venemo	so the packaging shit is an overhead	18:57
Venemo	and that's it.	18:57
lcuk	good for first install :P	18:57
lcuk	and if things change in your package	18:57
djszapi	Venemo: no it is not	18:58
djszapi	Venemo: I would not like to have own installation and pollute my system actually. But you have been told how to do it anyway.	18:58
Venemo	djszapi, so, maybe ask MS how they manage to launch my app instantly and then find a way on the N950 to do the same	19:00
Venemo	when I debug it, I don't care for the packaging. if I want to package it, I package it.	19:01
aapo	javispedro: is SDL on your PPA working on N950? I just tested sdl-hello, but it is seg faulting for start. Is there something I should use for resolution and flags?	19:02
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: who cares what you don't want? if you're not capable of coping with it and implement / follow your own restrictions defined to your liking, you suggest rather Nokia should implement those restrictions for all of us? Very polite, thanks for partonizing me.	19:02
javispedro	aapo: I cannot really completely build it until nokia-binaries is imported into COBS :(	19:02
javispedro	aapo: for now, get it from git and built it on your sbox	19:03
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: we're still debating DEVELOPER mode here	19:03
aapo	javispedro: do you mean upstream sdl git or maemo specific?	19:03
javispedro	aapo: any will work unless you want multitouch or GLES	19:04
javispedro	then you can install mine on device	19:04
aapo	javispedro: ok, very this moment I just want see something on the screen, later GLES+multitouch	19:04
javispedro	:)	19:05
javispedro	I am looking for some cool demo with GLES2 and multitouch	19:05
javispedro	like a water ripple effect shader or sth	19:05
javispedro	if you find one tell me :)	19:05
* javispedro crosses fingers and runs aegis-exec -a CAP::setgid portmap -v -f -d		19:11
javispedro	INSTABRICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!	19:12
javispedro	wonderful.	19:12
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: what do you mean ? Cannot you turn into "proper" developer mode ? What is your exact issue ?	19:12
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: confirming, it was me who bricked your device, as running that has caused exactly the same big warning icon.	19:13
javispedro	harmy is dead	19:13
DocScrutinizer	Heh congrats, welcome to the club :-D	19:14
djszapi	Venemo: ask MS about Harmattan ? Sounds weird. Did you try what javispedro said ?	19:14
javispedro	now, how to unbrick this ? =)	19:15
javispedro	oh, harmy is alive!	19:15
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: triple reboot fixed it :P	19:16
DocScrutinizer	duh	19:16
javispedro	still in closed mode	19:16
DocScrutinizer	how cute and smart and cool this aegis is! really great	19:16
javispedro	seems everything is the same	19:16
GAN900	I think Amazon--ordered Friday--may beat out the N950.	19:17
javispedro	GAN900: hey, it did for me.	19:17
* DocScrutinizer goes bathroom, puking a bit, then for some nicer times in beergarden. Feels sick with harmattan		19:18
DocScrutinizer	o/	19:18
javispedro	cya DocScrutinizer	19:18
djszapi	javispedro: I think you can remove the related entry, or did I not boot after that "brick" ?	19:18
aapo	what is wrong with my root, it can't kill user's processes??	19:19
javispedro	djszapi: for some reason, after running the command you get the big warning icon that was shown on that photo. then I rebooted it via powerbutton, and got big warning icon. Power button did nothing, so I had to hold it for a while until it shutted down	19:20
DocScrutinizer	aapo: haha, aegis	19:20
djszapi	aapo: if it does not have the proper credential, it cannot	19:20
javispedro	djszapi: turning it back on this third time didn't show the big warning icon and proceeded to normal boot.	19:20
aapo	Announcement: initial version of Tuxpaint running on N950. Not usable yet, screen is flickering, but I can draw with it =)	19:21
aapo	btw: do we have official channel for announcements?	19:21
djszapi	let us say, you as a user would not like anybody make anything with your data for instance. Root could even do that, but this way it cannot.	19:21
djszapi	javispedro: yes, 8+ secs is the hard reset.	19:21
aapo	I think I too hate aegis	19:22
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: why cannot you try to understand the security model ? A user device is not really like a Unix workstation...	19:23
djszapi	aapo: why do you hate aegis ?	19:23
javispedro	those old unix bears then to like, you know, being able to kill everything they want when they become root ;)	19:24
javispedro	s/then/tend/	19:24
infobot	javispedro meant: those old unix bears tend to like, you know, being able to kill everything they want when they become root ;)	19:24
aapo	djszapi: a) I have used aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec, but still it sometimes whine, and I have rebooted phone to get it stopped	19:25
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: on back of my N950 is a large printing "DEVELOPER DEVICE"	19:25
Venemo	djszapi, what I said, VS can deploy my app on a WP7 device instantly. so why can't Qt Creator do the same?	19:25
Venemo	anyway, I don't want to argue on this any further, it's pointless	19:25
djszapi	javispedro: I would not really like to have a root uesr doing anything with my user data....	19:26
djszapi	just if I grant permissions for that...	19:26
djszapi	aapo: please tell me your issue, I try to help if I can	19:26
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, polish it off yet?	19:26
DocScrutinizer	I didn't apply for the aegis-fieldtest program	19:26
djszapi	javispedro: it is not really a unix workstation, network where you have thousand users and you can do everything you want with those users	19:26
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: again, who cares what you'd like root to do or not to do - this is DEVELOPER mode and DEVELOPER device	19:26
djszapi	Venemo: complain to QtCreator	19:27
djszapi	?	19:27
djszapi	Venemo: you have been told more times how to do it from console. If that works, really complain to QtCreator.	19:27
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: Look. I complained about the image version weeks ago, it is really an old image for starter.	19:27
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: Second, I could run a binary, thus I do not understand the issue yet properly	19:27
aapo	djszapi: not much more to say. I done needed tricks to get unsigned binaries working, then I left phone for couple of hour and when I continue hacking, it sayd "Error: Permission denied ", Rebooted and it worked again	19:28
javispedro	aapo: lol, that's exactly what happened to me with portmap	19:29
djszapi	aapo: this sounds really weird...any scenario to reproduce it ?	19:29
javispedro	yesterday it did not even want to exec() it	19:29
javispedro	this morning I found that it started runnign it atleast..	19:29
SpeedEvil	djszapi: The issue is that the role, policies, and operation of aegis is unclear.	19:29
* javispedro had even thanked the gods for that		19:29
SpeedEvil	djszapi: Especially the future state for the n9 release to the public.	19:29
djszapi	SpeedEvil: I did not check the public documentation yet, but isn't there something written how the security model looks like ?	19:29
aapo	djszapi: I think I do not want reproduce it	19:29
javispedro	I at least can't reproduce it	19:30
SpeedEvil	What will it prevent doing at all - for example - can we ever put meego on it?	19:30
djszapi	I am pretty sure there is since Elena hold presentations at the meego conferences and also at the local meetup	19:30
piggz	has anyone ocr'd/typed the code from the front of the box?	19:30
djszapi	aapo: not much to discuss, maybe pebkac then	19:30
javispedro	now I purge portmap, reinstall, whatever, and it always exec() it	19:30
djszapi	SpeedEvil: no, you cannot flash your own image with flasher in my understanding	19:31
djszapi	but this is something I am not sure about yet.	19:31
djszapi	I tried to update the image with some OEM1 internal image, but it did not work	19:31
djszapi	I had to switch back to N9, not sure about that bit. It might be that they provide a more advanced flasher or I do not know that yet	19:31
SpeedEvil	Or especially - given this is likely to get less support than the n900 post-release - how can we work around 'features' in the release image.	19:31
Venemo	djszapi, as I said, I already opened a bug :)	19:32
djszapi	Venemo: please do not blame aegis, if it is a creator bug.	19:32
djszapi	SpeedEvil: to be quite honest. MeeGo never worked for me on N900, not even this ce edition. I know people do not like hearing it, but this is the fact.	19:33
Venemo	worked for me last time I tried. it was incomplete, but hey.	19:34
SpeedEvil	djszapi: Meego-ce has had perhaps three orders of magnitudes fewer man-hours put into it.	19:34
djszapi	Venemo: we have few games and it was not enjoyable at any time, not even few weeks ago I last tried. I really spent serious time with meego testing on N900.	19:35
SpeedEvil	And I'm not talking about the state of meego at n9 releast time even.	19:35
javispedro	I want to try n950ce and see if the 1GiB RAM helps	19:35
SpeedEvil	I'm talking about it a year or so after that.	19:35
djszapi	SpeedEvil: How knows what XXX thinks in one year in this market ? :D :D	19:36
djszapi	* who	19:36
SpeedEvil	djszapi: I know that if I scrape up the cash for a n9, which is debatable - I am unlikely to change it in under a couple of years.	19:36
SpeedEvil	djszapi: I also know that meego will at least somewhat continue development, even if dropped by all corporate sponsors.	19:37
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: the point is this is a DEVELOPER DEVICE, with two modes selectable from settings: developer mode ON\|OFF. We don't need nor want nor see the use of aegis intercepting anything in DEVELOPER mode. We want to develop, not learn aegis - we'll cope with aegis and manifests and packaging .deb and whatnot, when we finished developing our app. We go switching developer mode=off in settings then, and do whatever needed to make aegis	19:37
DocScrutinizer	happy. We really do NOT want to do this first, prior to even starting development of our app. Bottom line: the developer mode is way too restrictive, it ideally should just switch off the whole aegis thing	19:37
lcuk	Venemo, did you say earlier you are using wp7 also? which device are you testing on?	19:37
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Venemo	lcuk, I have no device currently, just the emulator	19:38
lawl0r	just recieved my n950 :D	19:38
lawl0r	so awesome	19:38
lcuk	you said earlier that your code just runs almost instantly on device	19:38
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: do not replicate yourself, I understood your purpose. What is not working ?	19:38
lcuk	(comparison to n950 qt creator slow way)	19:38
Venemo	lcuk, because it works with devices too.	19:38
djszapi	SpeedEvil: I agree with you, but this is seriously impossible to plan with one device for years	19:39
lawl0r	but compared to the n900 the n950 is shit	19:39
Venemo	lcuk, I did try WM6.5 dev with running my app on a device, and that was fast too	19:39
SpeedEvil	djszapi: Umm - what do you mean it's impossible to plan?	19:39
Venemo	lcuk, maybe I'll borrow a device for testing	19:39
lawl0r	there is only one cool thing about the n950: aegis	19:39
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: sigh see backscroll of this very channel, you'll find a dozen things that didn't work same way they would without aegis	19:39
djszapi	SpeedEvil: Well, I do not think I can buy any good phone, that will be supported so long in the current state	19:40
lawl0r	nokia finally realized how to implement a proper security system	19:40
lawl0r	was about damn time	19:40
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: basically NOTHING works same way as on a system without aegis	19:40
SpeedEvil	djszapi: The key aspect - 'is it possible to install a new OS or drastically modify the OS on an end user phone' is answerable.	19:40
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: first, it was a QtCreator issue	19:40
SpeedEvil	djszapi: Expecting support from nokia - of course not.	19:40
javispedro	btw, you also can't place files in upstart dir (/etc/init) unless they're digsig'd	19:40
djszapi	Second, aegis blaming without proper steps how to reproduce, thoes things I saw	19:40
djszapi	none of them is serious for consideration	19:40
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: killing user process when you're root is NOT a QtCreator issue	19:40
Venemo	djszapi, DocScrutinizer is not talking about my little "issue" here...	19:40
SpeedEvil	djszapi: I would be astonished if there was more than one bugfix release of software - post release.	19:41
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: You are really not going toward the purpose. If you do not need aegis, turn it off. Doesn't that work or what is your issue ?	19:41
djszapi	Why do you try to use aegis if you do not wanna instead of turning off telling me if it does not work ?	19:41
SpeedEvil	You cannot turn it off.	19:41
DocScrutinizer	I wouldn't even know how to turn it off	19:41
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: that's the whole fuss here	19:42
DocScrutinizer	PLEASE let us turn off aegis!	19:42
djszapi	SpeedEvil: I cannot seriously answer the question about the Nokia policy... I do not read hype either. Ask some manager :)	19:42
SpeedEvil	Suggesting 'turn it off' - when it doesn't seem possible to turn it off isn't especially helpful.	19:43
SpeedEvil	And I understand that policy questions are difficult.	19:43
lcuk	can it be apt-get remove'd ?	19:43
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: I (or we) understood that developer mode was supposed to turn off aegis - obviously it does NOT	19:44
lcuk	when was it documented that developer mode would do that?	19:44
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: when did you learn to post this type of trolling questions?	19:45
lcuk	and do we actually know what effect it does have?	19:45
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, i ain't trolling	19:45
lcuk	just trying to understand it	19:45
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DocScrutinizer	lcuk: ok then: no it's never been stated that developer mode would really do this, and no we don't know exactly what parts of the system will act up in a true "open mode" where aegis is down or neutered. As there's no howto about the whole friggin thing	19:47
djszapi	lcuk: not sure you got all my messages. My mobile internet connection is really bad :(	19:47
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: You are really confusing the open mode with the developer mode	19:47
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: nevertheless e.g frals suggested there'S a way to switch off aegis that will not work on and will brick our "CE devices"	19:47
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: maybe I'm confusing it, but that's due to missing docs about the whole topic. All i'm interested in is "how do I turn the system into a mode where things work like 'usual' 99.5% of the cases?"	19:49
djszapi	Does anybody know how to get this package from the public Harmattan repository or from somewhere else ? libncursesw5-dev	19:49
djszapi	I do not see it here, at least: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/	19:49
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: If you do not get answer, I try to come back to you on Monday. I cannot do more. If turning off aegis does not work, then it does not work...	19:50
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: fair enough, thanks	19:50
javispedro	djszapi: I believe it's the same src package as ascii ncurses	19:51
javispedro	aka "ncurses"	19:51
djszapi	no, it is not	19:51
* javispedro was 80% sure :P		19:51
* javispedro checks		19:51
djszapi	libncurses5-dev and libncursesw5-dev are different packages	19:52
javispedro	yes, but build from the same source	19:52
javispedro	it's just a define	19:52
Venemo	djszapi, since it's a -dev package, could you not try to look in the sdk repo?	19:52
djszapi	as far as ncurses and ncursesw are not the same.	19:52
djszapi	Venemo: I tried here: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/	19:52
Venemo	I see	19:52
djszapi	javispedro: I do not really feel nice building from source, if it is not possible. Hence why I am asking first :p	19:52
djszapi	* if it is possible	19:53
javispedro	djszapi: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/n/ncurses/libncursesw5-dev_5.7+20081213-6-maemo1+0m6_armel.deb	19:54
djszapi	cool thanks :)	19:54
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: have you checked with flasher the gadget is in developer mode ?	19:54
djszapi	also the developer flags ?	19:55
javispedro	hooooooow? :)	19:55
javispedro	it's the old plain rd mode?	19:55
djszapi	javispedro: ?	19:55
javispedro	hoow to check that	19:55
djszapi	use flasher	19:55
javispedro	iirc, it was _not_ in R&D mode	19:56
javispedro	is R&D mode == aegis open mode?	19:56
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: just note that I'm not exactly asking for "turning off aegis", I'm just interested in aegis allowing random stuff, like e.g. killing user processes when you're root, editing arbitrary files when you're root, generally doing things each devel is used to do since decades. And I understand that some parts of the system might cease to work when aegis is set to this operation mode, whatever it is called "aegis off" or "aegis has a	19:56
DocScrutinizer	policy to allow all in docS-mode" or no matter how it'S achieved	19:56
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: no, turning off as a root is against the aegis design	19:56
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: no, I didn't know about that	19:56
SpeedEvil	'turning off when magic switch is pulled' then	19:57
djszapi	javispedro: no it is not as I said above...	19:57
SpeedEvil	I don't think anyone especially cares if it's as root.	19:57
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: you cannot edit files of course, that would result no integrity protection. What you want is to turn off aegis if this design is unacceptable for you.	19:58
djszapi	or you canusethe aforementioned cli command for double checking.	19:58
javispedro	djszapi: note that even the nokia wiki pages confuse open and developer modes, but I was talking about r&d mode here (which aiui is another "mode" not aegis related in any way)	19:58
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: However you can grant permissions from the manifest file. Again, if this granulraity design is unacceptable for you, please do not use security on your phone.	19:59
djszapi	SpeedEvil: yes I do.	19:59
DocScrutinizer	I'd happily follow your advice, just have no clue HOW to "not use security on my phone"	20:00
djszapi	javispedro: yes, that mode is related to the integrity protection imo.	20:00
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: write manifest files if you want to spread the credentials as you want.	20:00
SpeedEvil	djszapiI mean - I don't think anyone especially has the opinion that root should be able to do anything - and would mind if aegis was turn-offable with a magic incantation.	20:00
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: "please open nearest trash can, carefully drop phone into trash can device..." ;)	20:00
djszapi	or there is also a package which auto-generates things for you.	20:01
javispedro	and that package is? =)	20:01
djszapi	aegis-manifest-dev	20:02
javispedro	aaaaaaaah.	20:02
javispedro	but but but.	20:02
djszapi	not sure it is enough for you.	20:02
djszapi	for fine granularity though	20:02
javispedro	nope :(	20:02
djszapi	but for basic things, it is fine to forget the manifest writing things	20:02
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javispedro	e.g. it is not smart enough to map setgid() -> CAP::ssetgid	20:02
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javispedro	but we could fix that	20:03
djszapi	it is very smart and overthought	20:03
Venemo	is Aegis a kernel module btw? or how does it work?	20:03
javispedro	either way that is still part of the packaging process which Doc et all want to avoid.	20:03
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: partially, yes	20:03
djszapi	Venemo: I do not know what information is public, what not...	20:03
javispedro	the entire aegis is open source.	20:03
javispedro	well, or most of it.	20:03
djszapi	Venemo: please read the documentation, that is the safest for me :)	20:03
djszapi	Venemo: but basically in general security frameworks, like smack, selinux, aegis, etc have kernel parts for sure	20:04
Venemo	how about 'modprobe -r aegis' then?	20:04
djszapi	no, it is not open source....	20:04
djszapi	not even "most of it".	20:04
javispedro	djszapi: https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security ?	20:04
djszapi	btw, can you download the kernel ?	20:04
djszapi	I did not actually know	20:04
Venemo	doesn't that violate the kernel's GPL license?	20:04
djszapi	but that was my impression the kernel is internal and not open	20:05
djszapi	I might be wrong with this.	20:05
javispedro	yeah, kernel is open, they're not _THAT_ evil ;)	20:05
SpeedEvil	Can't (legally) be.	20:05
djszapi	javispedro: then again sigh it is a qtcreator bug	20:05
djszapi	you /can/ run binaries....	20:05
javispedro	indeed.	20:05
javispedro	but we have several problems here.	20:05
djszapi	javispedro: the kernel is open really ?	20:06
javispedro	probably 5 or 6 "situations that were possible pre-aegis and now aren't" have been mentione	20:06
djszapi	I thought they will not publish it, just binary, mmm	20:06
javispedro	djszapi: all of it that I can see.	20:06
Venemo	djszapi, that is against the kernel's license	20:06
SpeedEvil	You're required under the GPL licence to release kernel source. In general this is dealt with by having an open-source kernel part that talks through a public API to a closed-source userspace part.	20:06
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djszapi	Venemo: is also the android kernel open ?	20:06
SpeedEvil	yes	20:06
SpeedEvil	In theory.	20:07
javispedro	Android manufactures are way more sloppy.	20:07
djszapi	SpeedEvil: there is no closed userspace part....	20:07
javispedro	and being based in $REMOTE_COUNTRY hardly sue-able.	20:07
Venemo	djszapi, yes.	20:07
SpeedEvil	Some vendors are better than others at keeping kernel sources up-to-date	20:07
djszapi	if the kernel is open, then 100 % open	20:07
djszapi	at least the aegis part of the platform.	20:07
djszapi	SpeedEvil: that is almost impossible.	20:08
javispedro	if kernel had been closed you'd been hearing from me. Probably with a fitchfork ;)	20:08
SpeedEvil	djszapi: What is almost impossible?	20:08
djszapi	javispedro: ok, I am not a lawyers, I trust you :)	20:08
djszapi	SpeedEvil: to be in sync with upstream.	20:08
djszapi	otherwise you could push your changes to upstream anyway...	20:09
djszapi	if Linus and others accept it for sure :)	20:09
SpeedEvil	djszapi: I mean keeping the released sources in sync with the shipped devices.	20:09
SpeedEvil	djszapi: Not getting 'vanilla' kernel to work - that's impossible in many cases.	20:09
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djszapi	SpeedEvil: we merged the upstream security fixes back as much as it was possible.	20:10
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SpeedEvil	djszapi: yes - that's not what I mean - some vendors release source only months after - or not at all - they update the device kernel.	20:11
djszapi	20:06 < javispedro> probably 5 or 6 "situations that were possible pre-aegis and now aren't" have been mentione -> There is no 5-6 things here. 1) Turn off aegis 2) Not turn off and learn	20:11
javispedro	until anyone knows how to _temporarily_ disable aegis, that is not a solution.	20:12
javispedro	and as for 2), well, someone needs to put on a wiki page to explain all of the "alternatives"	20:13
djszapi	javispedro: I am not speaking about implementation details. If something is missing or buggy, provide me steps how to reproduce. I got zero. I am more like speaking from the design pov.	20:13
javispedro	noone is saying they are bugs	20:13
javispedro	(well, save for maybe that weird stuff that required a reboot)	20:13
djszapi	Do not forget most of the people left Nokia, there is not much manpower over there right now though for fixes.	20:13
javispedro	but still nuisances.	20:14
javispedro	and imagine now for a moment the amount of _users and developers_ that are going to leave Nokia if they suddenly come to the realitzation that you cannot have real root on the device, or that you cannot package a daemon that requires setgid without a com.nokia.maemo signature.	20:14
javispedro	have to say that includes me.	20:15
SpeedEvil	Indeed - it'd make me really hesitant to plop down cash for n9	20:15
SpeedEvil	I question how many users that is though.	20:15
djszapi	javispedro: you do not still understand what two ways exist	20:15
djszapi	if you /want/ "real" root, you want to turn aegis off	20:15
Jaffa	djszapi: I think javispedro is very much aware.	20:15
Venemo	djszapi, so as I understand it, we basically need to learn how to write this "manifest file" or whatever thing to allow our packages to do certain things?	20:16
djszapi	back to the meego and CE thingy. I would really not recommend that way, if aegis causes issues for you guys. As for me, it seems Intel is on the way to ship selinux which is MUCH worse than aegis	20:17
djszapi	MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE	20:17
djszapi	Venemo: nope	20:17
djszapi	aegis manifest is file based, not package-wise. Even more grnaularity	20:18
Venemo	djszapi, sure, but I need to package up that manifest, don't I?	20:18
djszapi	ok put it mildly: with meego it will be way much more awkward and nightmare according to the principles.	20:18
Venemo	I'm currently talking about Harmattan	20:18
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, could you please elaborate on why the CA-179 is crap?	20:18
djszapi	I am just explaining why meego ce does not make sense for me. If they will really ship selinux, I am out of meego completely.	20:19
djszapi	Venemo: manifest is a simple xml format	20:19
Venemo	djszapi, could you please point me to a doc about it?	20:19
Venemo	djszapi, also, what do you have against SELinux?	20:20
javispedro	manifest only works if you want to request one of the following credentials: http://pastebin.com/KPX88Sgh	20:20
javispedro	otherwise, you're SOL.	20:20
djszapi	Venemo: as I said more times, nope. As said I have never read public documentation, I do not know what they published. It is not my call	20:20
djszapi	javispedro: not really, no	20:20
javispedro	so, how?	20:21
javispedro	I've been able to request any of the credentials from that list.	20:21
javispedro	that includes net_bind_service so I can at least open ports < 1000	20:21
javispedro	but not setgid, or setuid, or ..	20:22
djszapi	javispedro: my impression was that you can pretty much provide and request custom credentials as well	20:22
djszapi	however it might be turned on that level, it is just for the platform internally, this is something I am not sure about. Someone should write a test manifest for that	20:22
Jaffa	djszapi: Remember that what Aegis as a framework allows and the Harmattan implementation of Aegis aren't the same	20:22
djszapi	Jaffa: who said it is the same ?	20:22
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djszapi	why would anybody say that ?	20:23
Jaffa	javispedro: Which makes sense - if you were given setuid/setgid rights, you could bypass it	20:23
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DocScrutinizer	djszapi: >>if you /want/ "real" root, you want to turn aegis off<< Please give clear instructions on how to do exactly that	20:23
Jaffa	djszapi: "custom credentials" aren't relevant to the concrete realisation, right?	20:23
djszapi	javispedro: aegis-exec could grant me those, setuid, setgid	20:23
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: Have you checked the developer mode and flags ?	20:24
djszapi	Jaffa: they are.	20:24
djszapi	That is the whole idea about...	20:24
djszapi	on the top of the general POSIX capabilities.	20:24
DocScrutinizer	no, I don't want to check anything and guess anything. I need a clear word "do this: x, then y"	20:24
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: I cannot help then, sorry (right now)	20:25
javispedro	djszapi: remember that aegis-exec -a CAP::setgid results in a boot loop ;)	20:25
GAN900	Where is our Aegis expert, anyway?	20:26
javispedro	Have to say that GAN900 has said the smartest thing of the day.	20:26
javispedro	that's what is missing here.	20:27
javispedro	so, we might have been ... not really concentrated during the aegis meegoconf sessions ... potentially because no one thought of the consequences. Bring back the lady and make her talk again.	20:27
SpeedEvil	:/	20:27
SpeedEvil	In a way, aegis is irrelevant	20:28
djszapi	javispedro: I cannot reproduce...	20:28
SpeedEvil	It's the eagis policies that's important	20:28
SpeedEvil	Seemigly the CE releases differ.	20:28
GAN900	javispedro, well, haven't things changed a lot since then?	20:28
javispedro	;P	20:29
javispedro	SpeedEvil: indeed - but also generic stuff like develoepr vs closed vs open	20:29
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: CE devices are missing a Nokia-developer-cert or sth	20:30
djszapi	Windows CE ? :)	20:30
Mek	CE labelled devices	20:31
djszapi	I was just joking ;)	20:31
javispedro	SpeedEvil: by CE you mean DE?	20:31
djszapi	well, in my opinion, the security has nothing to do with this issue. If Nokia managers thought they give out devices without documentation, proper images etc	20:31
DocScrutinizer	no, some obviously nokia internal term referring to "CE" cert of hw, which correlates with the missing cert	20:31
javispedro	the nokia policy is theoretically described in /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf	20:34
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: well, yes. It seems like some of the higher-up managers at Nokia are doing the whole meego-N9 thing in a rather half-arsed way	20:34
javispedro	there you can find stuff like what privileges can SRC::com.nokia.maemo request.	20:34
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: I cannot help sorry. I will be asking my colleagues on Monday who are still at Nokia and not on vacation. Hope the best...	20:35
djszapi	javispedro: that is not just nokia policies, any credentials.	20:35
djszapi	like a "database".	20:35
javispedro	yes, aiui it is edited everytime dpkg-aegis parses a _aegis manifest	20:36
djszapi	that is a good debug interface whether or your manifest credential landed on the device properly.	20:36
djszapi	also accli though	20:36
djszapi	it is called "dpkg" and the original is "dpkg.real"	20:37
djszapi	or did it change recently ?	20:37
DocScrutinizer	no, still there	20:37
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: btw, I know how we turned off the security, I am not sure it works publicly though	20:38
djszapi	echo 0 > /sys/kernel/security/digsig/enforce and echo 0 > /sys/kernel/security/digsig/enabled, but it seems to not work anymore	20:39
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: that's probably what frals also told us. Echo 1 >/etc/die-aegis-DIE etc	20:39
Mek	you can't do that in CE labelled devices anyway	20:39
Mek	you can only do that if you already have put your devicein open mode	20:39
Venemo	:what is a "CE labelled device"?	20:40
Mek	and how to do that is completely secret and/or not possible with these CE labelled devices	20:40
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: a device with the letters "CE" written somewhere on the case	20:40
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, I don't recall seeing that on the N950	20:42
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: nope, "/etc" is integrity protected	20:42
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, high-up managers screwing things up has been the issue from the start.	20:42
javispedro	djszapi: nope, I was just calling the aegis one "dpkg-aegis"	20:42
Mek	Venemo: it's behind the screen I think	20:42
djszapi	javispedro: yeah, I have just double checked, it is still dpkg and dpkg.real	20:42
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Venemo	Mek, and what does it matter?	20:44
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: see my explanation above	20:44
Mek	well, the label itself doesn't matter, but the label being there means that for example R&D certificates are not prsent	20:45
djszapi	:D:D	20:45
Venemo	aah	20:45
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: [2011-07-16 19:31:41] <DocScrutinizer> no, some obviously nokia internal term referring to "CE" cert of hw, which correlates with the missing cert	20:45
Venemo	ok, thx for explaining	20:45
Mek	so you can't flash R&D image (if you would have access to them), and do a couple of other things	20:45
djszapi	exactly	20:45
djszapi	that is why it does not have newer images where serious certificates are needed, like skype, jokuspot, gtalk etc	20:45
djszapi	Mek: you cannot even do that with production image.	20:45
Mek	well, nightly build production images are available signed with the right key	20:46
djszapi	until they say, okay, this is good for shipping.	20:46
Venemo	so how does a CE label prevent me from flashing an image?	20:46
djszapi	Mek: nope, for N950 you cannot use "simple" production image	20:46
Mek	Venemo: images are signed with a key, if te key doesn't match a cert on the device, you can't flash the image	20:46
djszapi	it must be OEM1 certified etc etc etc etc	20:46
Mek	djszapi: yes, OEM1 certified nightly builds for PR images are made	20:46
javispedro	fun stuff surely :)	20:47
Venemo	mhm..	20:47
djszapi	there is no available OEM1 nightly build, not even for internals when I last checked	20:47
Mek	djszapi: there has been for a couple of days	20:47
djszapi	Mek: for public ?	20:47
Venemo	so, can we get our hands on it?	20:47
* javispedro removes setgid() calls from portmap and hopes noone decides to crack my n950.		20:47
Mek	djszapi: no, internal; and only of PR images	20:47
DocScrutinizer	hmm, I always thought the purpose of TC/security-framework/aegis was to allow apps like skype to check if device is in open mode and refuse to run if it was. Never thought the purpose was to forbid open mode completely	20:47
* djszapi is checking...		20:47
djszapi	ahh I do not have access, well I will check that out on Monday.	20:48
djszapi	Mek: I checked it after the meetup when the devices were given out, few weeks ago.	20:48
djszapi	week 22 is a bit old without flash, skype, hotspot, gtalk etc	20:49
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Mek	djszapi: yeah, they weren't available then, an interal blog post of earlier this week mentioned they would start making them (and are making them now)	20:49
djszapi	Mek: mmh, they may have seen my screaming post about it on the forum xD	20:49
djszapi	that is a good progres, cool.	20:49
djszapi	Mek: kdelibs compilation is 92% for harmattan :)	20:50
Venemo	soo...	20:50
Venemo	when can we get our hands on a new N950 image?	20:50
javispedro	djszapi: well, many thanks for the conversation.	20:51
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: this question is utterly useless	20:51
Venemo	:P	20:51
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: Nokia NEVER promises any release dates	20:51
djszapi	no problem, I do really understand it can be an issue. Not trivial framework, but it cannot be by purpose.	20:51
djszapi	I have never seen any trivial security framework. However turning off should be trivial and well documented, yeah. I will ask around on Monday.	20:51
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: MUCH appreciates. Many thanks!	20:52
* javispedro nfs-mounts his home on 950		20:55
javispedro	aaaaah, home sweet home.	20:55
* javispedro is happy.		20:55
DocScrutinizer	:-D	20:55
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, I don't need/want it to be an official release	20:59
DocScrutinizer	there's no inofficial releases	20:59
djszapi	Venemo: I was complaining about it as well on the forum after the meetup, you can join crying there :p	21:00
DocScrutinizer	good advice :-)	21:00
javispedro	ok, for some reason I just tried to swipe a terminal window. On my desktop.	21:01
javispedro	With the mouse.	21:01
DocScrutinizer	hehe	21:02
javispedro	like Fremantle's tap outside dialog, swipe also grows on you seemingly...	21:02
djszapi	javispedro: how about zooming with two mouse like a pincharea ? :)	21:02
javispedro	I could use two mouses... :P	21:03
javispedro	;P	21:03
Venemo	djszapi, ok, I will, gimme a link	21:04
* javispedro out -- cya!		21:05
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: I tried to zoom pinch on N900 browse just 2 days ago :-)	21:06
djszapi	Venemo: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=25277&posted=1#post25277	21:07
Venemo	djszapi, already pressed the thanks button :P	21:08
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djszapi	Venemo: :) What type of application do you develop, if I can ask ?	21:17
Venemo	djszapi, various; whatever comes to my mind	21:20
Venemo	djszapi, right now I'm making a memory game to learn QML with :)	21:20
antman8969	anyone know any designers interested in drawing me up an anna -style icon? ;)	21:21
Venemo	djszapi, wanna try?	21:21
Jaffa	antman8969: javispedro's icon generator to the resuce	21:21
antman8969	haha, do you have a link?	21:22
Jaffa	antman8969: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3714	21:22
antman8969	well... that makes my life a lot easier	21:23
djszapi	Venemo: sure when I got kdelibs working :) Actually we have been doing a game development framework, but Nokia also started providing something. Not sure you need to write it from scratch.	21:23
antman8969	thanks Jaffa	21:23
Venemo	antman8969, also see http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3717	21:23
Venemo	djszapi, it is a very simple app which I ported from QGV	21:24
antman8969	sweet	21:25
GAN900	Still in the UK.	21:25
GAN900	Lame stuff	21:25
antman8969	are you from the US?	21:26
GAN900	Yes.	21:28
antman8969	me too... n950 has been in the UK for 3 days now	21:30
antman8969	I'm thinking there is a row boat that leaves the UK once a week, and thats what dhl is waiting on	21:30
Jaffa	DHL aren't always 100% accurate about when stuff leaves, but I guess this is the US freight restrictions	21:30
GAN900	Never had issues before.	21:34
GAN900	Andrew's is stuck, too, so I'm thinking DHL incompetence.	21:35
GAN900	US really doesn't have a lot of restriction on imports.	21:35
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javispedro	you are not going to believe what just happened	21:37
javispedro	so I get my n950 with portmap, which was working perfectly	21:38
javispedro	exit home	21:38
javispedro	and after 4 minutes or so	21:38
javispedro	I look at the screen and bang	21:38
javispedro	Aegis security problem	21:38
javispedro	with /sbin/portmap	21:39
javispedro	this time no way to get out of it	21:39
javispedro	so I had to go back home and swap sim to n900	21:39
* javispedro sighs		21:39
* javispedro sighs loudly.		21:40
* javispedro writes off harmy, needs a reflash		21:41
javispedro	cya again	21:41
antman8969	hey javispedro, I'm tryingto use your icon maker but getting some trouble...have a sec?	21:46
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rlinfati	2 => ProductionServer is https://nokia.account.com/rest/1.0/ // hostname wrong (WTF)	21:47
rlinfati	:(	21:47
rlinfati	nokia.account.com vs account.nokia.com	21:47
GAN900	Jaffa and his murder of N950s.	21:49
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DocScrutinizer	aegis	21:58
djszapi	lcukn900: got harmattan working on N900 ? :)	21:59
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lcukn900	djszapi, no but an app grid 6*4 in liqbase looks awesome :p	22:04
lcukn900	as does swipe swiping :p	22:04
harbaum	lcukn900: do you consider rewriting your stuff in qml?	22:04
lcukn900	harbaum i do, and i try different things often	22:05
lcukn900	latest calendar prototype is qwidget based and so far seen working on c5-03 n8 and most impressively the qt simulator lol	22:06
lcukn900	err a qwidget based calendar	22:07
lcukn900	qml oes not offer scaleable vectors fast enough yet, i try advancing the rendering speed often with folks	22:07
lcukn900	the art of line drawing is gone if everything is a rectangle	22:08
harbaum	how does the navi then work? It seems to be a qml app	22:08
harbaum	is the nav view itself a c++ widget?	22:09
lcukn900	that is 1 rectangle with a view i believe	22:09
* DocScrutinizer considers boxing and suspending N950 til the day much more knowledgeable devels like javispedro managed to at very least get successfully accomplished usual everyday activities like setting up portmap or recompiling and flashing/using stock kernel		22:09
lcukn900	liqbase needs thousands of them	22:09
harbaum	liqbase just need a 2d canvas widget + everything qml already has	22:10
lcukn900	harbaum complex paint processors and caching would be required and extremely wastefu to render to bitmap first	22:10
DocScrutinizer	really I'm not interested to "develop" the 97th wallpaper changer, and it seems harmattan is not yet ready for doing serious development	22:10
lcukn900	many 2d canvas widgets	22:10
lcukn900	one sketch per rectangle	22:10
lcukn900	the graffiti wall has currently almost 10000 sketches	22:11
lcukn900	live rendered as you pan	22:11
harbaum	that's still one 2d canvas with 10000 instances	22:11
lcukn900	and can you not see a memory problem yet?	22:12
lcukn900	one heavy set canvas with all its fancypants configuration options is much more memory than a normal qml rectangle	22:12
rZr	Venemo: i build your game and it works	22:14
Venemo	rZr, thanks	22:14
rZr	i made a few changes , wanna merge ?	22:14
rZr	+Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), libqt4-dev	22:15
rZr	+Homepage: http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip	22:15
Venemo	rZr, umm, what are the changes?	22:16
rZr	+ # Add here commands to clean up after the build process.	22:16
rZr	+ -$(MAKE) clean	22:16
Venemo	rZr, you altered the packaging?	22:16
rZr	a bit yet	22:16
rZr	yes	22:17
Venemo	only?	22:17
rZr	yes	22:17
Venemo	ah.	22:17
rZr	i can push my changes	22:17
Venemo	I've deleted the debian folder from the game becasue Qt Creator can't deploy when it's present	22:17
Venemo	the original ones do have a lot of stuff	22:18
rm_you	GeneralAntilles: 8Departed Facility in EAST MIDLANDS - UK EAST MIDLANDS - UK03:53	22:19
Venemo	rZr, https://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/memory-game/trees/master/debian	22:19
Venemo	rZr, the harmattan branch has not yet been pushed to gitorious	22:19
rZr	k thx	22:19
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rZr	i made a puzzle qml game too	22:21
rZr	i'll may commit it too	22:21
Venemo	rZr, jigsaw puzzle?	22:21
rZr	yes	22:22
rZr	i saw you create one too	22:22
rZr	i can test yours if it's ready	22:22
Venemo	yes, but it's not packaged/ported to Harmattan yet	22:22
rZr	i can do that job if needed	22:22
rZr	my repo is growing every day	22:23
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rZr	http://rzr.online.fr/q/handset	22:23
Venemo	I understand, but I want to port it to Harmattan first :)	22:23
rZr	sure	22:25
djszapi	rZr: I have also been doing a lot of packages for Harmattan. It would be nice to avoid the duplication.	22:26
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rZr	djszapi: there is a wiki page for that ICCR, I'll sure share the job	22:27
djszapi	rZr: we might be able to share a repository for that. Actually, I am not entirely sure how this sharing works on c-obs.	22:28
rZr	i think there is already a repo for that but it's empty	22:29
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djszapi	rZr: it would make sense to sync up with repositories from trusted volunteers.	22:30
djszapi	or just sync and fix if there is any breakge.	22:30
rZr	we already overide	22:30
djszapi	* breakage	22:30
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GeneralAntilles	rm_you, exactly what mine says.	22:43
rm_you	GeneralAntilles: same plane? :P	22:43
rm_you	fiferboy's ever land?	22:44
GeneralAntilles	Nope	22:47
GeneralAntilles	Crashed into the Atlantic.	22:47
* GeneralAntilles sighs at the lightbulb idiocy.		22:48
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GeneralAntilles	I bet the implementation of the efficiency standards generates more CO2 than the bulbs they're regulating.	22:48
djszapi	rZr: I have kdelibs working. When we can get c-obs back I will be uploading :=)	22:52
rZr	congratz	22:53
rm_you	GeneralAntilles: lol	23:04
rm_you	(to both things, kinda the same amount of funny but sad)	23:04
GeneralAntilles	rm_you, well, you know why the industry backed the new regulations so hard, right?	23:05
rm_you	because insanity / lobbyists, same reasons as always?	23:05
GeneralAntilles	So they could close down their incandescent manufacturing plants in the US and move everything over to the CFL plants in China.	23:05
rm_you	lol	23:05
GeneralAntilles	Which don't have to comply with any efficiency or real environmental standards.	23:05
GeneralAntilles	Anyway, enough of my off topic political whining.	23:06
GeneralAntilles	WHERE IS MY N950?!	23:06
rm_you	lol	23:06
rm_you	i'll laugh if it passes fiferboy's	23:07
ieatlint	but the CFLs give us a new source of mercury which has been sorely missed since the banning of mercury thermometers	23:07
ieatlint	we just need to start a rumour that huffing the vapor inside of them gets you high and we can ruin an entire generation of kids	23:08
GeneralAntilles	I still have some old thermostats sitting in the garage.	23:09
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DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: (lightbulbs) CFL? forget it, the energy needed to produce all this hightech crap needed in those crappy energy save lamps defeats any reasonable purpose - esp given the promised lifetime usualy isn't even reached by a tenth	23:16
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GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer, yes, I agree.	23:18
GeneralAntilles	Governments trying to pick technology (or encourage a direction) does way more harm than good.	23:18
DocScrutinizer	indeed	23:18
DocScrutinizer	btw now I have those shitty CFL lamps and ponder buying an electrical heater :-P	23:20
DocScrutinizer	(means the heat generated by incandescent is not always to be considered 'lost' - actually I actively plan with this heat)	23:21
ieatlint	i just run several computers	23:22
ieatlint	works well	23:22
DocScrutinizer	I pondered building a shower heating from 150 dimmed incandescent lamps - moot project	23:22
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer, same with my desktop during winter.	23:23
DocScrutinizer	the result is I have to heat the bathroom all the time now, as the conventional heating isn't fast enough for a spontaneous shower	23:23
ieatlint	somehow the electrical requirements of 150 incandescent bulbs in the shower seems like a hazard	23:25
GeneralAntilles	lol	23:25
lcuk	worht a try, the results would be enlightening	23:25
* DocScrutinizer just hopes for some clever manufacturer selling 100W incandescent in a black shirt now, labeled as heater unit, and you just rip off the black shirt		23:25
GeneralAntilles	I want to hook a towel warmer up to a relay in the shower valve.	23:26
ieatlint	some showers do have a heating lamp in the ceiling that you can turn on	23:26
DocScrutinizer	ieatlint: 150 * 20..30W seems just fine	23:26
* SpeedEvil has 600W of solar cells in the kitchen.		23:26
SpeedEvil	Putting them together is the fun part. :)	23:27
ieatlint	DocScrutinizer: so turning on your bathroom light would be a mere 3-4.5kwh? haha	23:27
ieatlint	it's like running two microwaves	23:27
SpeedEvil	I have a garage light made from 20*22W Energy saving bulbs.	23:27
SpeedEvil	Every time I turn it on, I save around 1.5Kw.	23:27
DocScrutinizer	it's like running 1.5 .. 2 conventional heaters which is just ok to heat up the bathroom in 3 minutes	23:28
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djszapi	Could someone tell me where I can find the "python-setuptools" package here: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ ? There are more packages depending on that package in this repository, but I failed ot find it. I hope it is just my sleep deprivation :p	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	djszapi: I'd not be surprised to find more flaws in that location/repo that just "my" bash .deb that refuses to run and then killed the system when javispedro and I tried to make it run nevertheless ( http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=25529&postcount=94 )	23:33
DocScrutinizer	s/that j/than j/	23:33
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: djszapi: I'd not be surprised to find more flaws in that location/repo than just "my" bash .deb that refuses to run and then killed the system when javispedro and I tried to make it run nevertheless ( http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=25529&postcount=...	23:33
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: anyway ->	23:35
DocScrutinizer	[jr@lagrange nokia]$ find . -name 'python-setuptools'	23:35
djszapi	I think this python-setuptools has been forgotten ti upload.	23:35
DocScrutinizer	./harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/distribute/python-setuptools_0.6.15-1maemo3+0m6_all.deb	23:35
lcuk	Jaffa, attitude with compass patch for the win please :$	23:35
djszapi	thanks :)	23:35
DocScrutinizer	yw	23:35
Jaffa	lcuk: Roger.	23:37
lcuk	Jaffa, your app would make the idea test for new functionality !	23:38
DocScrutinizer	o/ Jaffa	23:38
GeneralAntilles	How's the community repo situation?	23:39
djszapi	GeneralAntilles: what do you mean exactly ?	23:40
GeneralAntilles	Is there a repo? Where is it, if so? And does Harmattan want to accept it?	23:41
djszapi	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ and also some on -cobs	23:41
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Apps-testing and Apps repos are being set up, but there are key issues being signed up. People's home repos (equivalent to multiple Extras-devel) are springing up	23:41
djszapi	* c-obs	23:41
djszapi	DocScrutinizer: plese gimme w3m :p	23:45
DocScrutinizer	find 'w3m' ?	23:46
djszapi	Have you added this repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list file ?	23:46
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: sorry?	23:46
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: no, copied to my box by wget	23:47
DocScrutinizer	djszapi: you want to know about where 'w3m'?	23:47
djszapi	wget -r ?	23:48
DocScrutinizer	smt like that, yes	23:48
DocScrutinizer	sth*	23:48
djszapi	it would be nice if they put a search engine there.	23:48
DocScrutinizer	well, now that I have the mass, an occasional update is painless	23:49
djszapi	yeah, right now I need to know ^wm3$	23:49
DocScrutinizer	wget is smart enough for this	23:49
DocScrutinizer	ok, moment	23:49
DocScrutinizer	wm3 or w3m ?	23:49
djszapi	sorry, my bad :P ^w3m$	23:50
djszapi	the text based browser	23:50
DocScrutinizer	doesn't exist	23:50
djszapi	ok, I am packaging then..	23:52
DocScrutinizer	:-)	23:52

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