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| Cosmo[PB] | hey GeneralAntilles | 01:01 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | vgrade: we've just taken your keeper on loan | 01:40 |
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| vgrade | Cosmo[PB] can you keep him | 01:47 |
| Cosmo[PB] | actually wtf are we borrowing him, we have 2 awesome keepers and 2 spare | 01:48 |
| vgrade | I think we are taking one | 01:48 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | I suppose I should read more than the headline | 01:52 |
| User108 | so, meego is dead? | 01:52 |
| Cosmo[PB] | yes I got the title the wrong way around | 01:52 |
| Cosmo[PB] | User108: if you, you've surrounded by a shit load of zombies | 01:53 |
| Cosmo[PB] | vgrade: aw man he's one of our good ones | 01:53 |
| User108 | all of these people are zombies? | 01:53 |
| User108 | i think i'm in the wrong channel then | 01:53 |
| User108 | what do you think about more "alive" mobile operating system? | 01:54 |
| User108 | why don't you make the jump? | 01:54 |
| Cosmo[PB] | honestly, it's hard to get me to join a channel and once I join I stay | 01:54 |
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| User108 | is meego teh nokia thing? | 01:55 |
| User108 | oh no it's not | 01:55 |
| Cosmo[PB] | it was | 01:55 |
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| User108 | is it completely dead? | 01:56 |
| User108 | or is it like a phoenix | 01:56 |
| Cosmo[PB] | nokia bailed then intel bailed / left a month or so ago | 01:56 |
| User108 | webOS's brother | 01:56 |
| User108 | :( | 01:56 |
| User108 | i'm interested in reinventing mobile computing | 01:56 |
| User108 | and i don't know where to go | 01:57 |
| Cosmo[PB] | they want to make a MID so they've moved to Tizen which uses HTML5 for it's apps | 01:57 |
| User108 | so i decided to start here | 01:57 |
| User108 | oh shit, i'll take a look at tizen | 01:57 |
| User108 | looks nice | 01:57 |
| berndhs | reinvent how ? I know they are doing it all wrong, but what's your idea of doing it better ? | 01:57 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I'm hoping that Tizen uses most of the Meego core | 01:58 |
| User108 | you know "apps"? | 01:58 |
| Cosmo[PB] | otherwise there was a lot of wasted development time | 01:58 |
| User108 | get rid of them | 01:58 |
| User108 | i don't really care about the "core" honestly | 01:58 |
| User108 | i care about the user experience | 01:58 |
| Cosmo[PB] | it's more of my interest | 01:58 |
| User108 | that's what they're doing wrong | 01:58 |
| Cosmo[PB] | cars come in all shapes and sizes but they all use petrol :) | 01:58 |
| User108 | should i go to a design channel then? | 01:58 |
| User108 | it's true, some people have to build engines | 01:59 |
| berndhs | can't do a user experience without engineering | 01:59 |
| User108 | but that's not what the user sees | 01:59 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I remember talks about how to seperate the program from the branding to make it easier for people to rebrand the phone OS | 01:59 |
| User108 | branding is bad too | 01:59 |
| User108 | i think an os should be an aggregator of services | 02:00 |
| User108 | more than a platform with apps on it | 02:00 |
| User108 | for example, i really like the approach of windows phone 7 | 02:00 |
| Cosmo[PB] | User108: the core is more important in my pinion, Nokia, LG, HTC etc will all want their own branding | 02:00 |
| User108 | consumer DONT want LG, Samsung, HTC to make their own branding -.- | 02:00 |
| User108 | i don't know why they try to do that | 02:00 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | is it just me or did he seem kinda angry when he left? | 02:01 |
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| berndhs | well, some folks don't wants phones or computers, they want a shopping device and service delivery device | 02:01 |
| king_aoeu | i'm user800... | 02:01 |
| king_aoeu | sorry, dced | 02:01 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | do you have 799 identical brothers? | 02:01 |
| king_aoeu | but why do HTC try to make their own OS/interface | 02:01 |
| king_aoeu | :P | 02:02 |
| king_aoeu | users want good hardware | 02:02 |
| king_aoeu | for example, on android, you can't buy a phone without bloatware | 02:02 |
| berndhs | so they can get people to buy HTC phones because it says HTC on them | 02:02 |
| king_aoeu | htc sense is ugly in my opinion | 02:02 |
| Cosmo[PB] | some people, like you, want to buy a phone that works, any then buy a different phone that has the same familair UI | 02:02 |
| king_aoeu | yes but why don't they just make good phones and not touch the OS? | 02:02 |
| king_aoeu | i'm all in favor of standards | 02:03 |
| king_aoeu | i hate fragmentation | 02:03 |
| berndhs | branding works well in other industries, lots of people buy Chevy or BMW or Honda on faith | 02:03 |
| king_aoeu | and carriers/manufacturers contribute to it a lot | 02:03 |
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| king_aoeu | branding is "ok", as long as it only affect the hardware/casing | 02:03 |
| berndhs | me, I don't like enforced uniformity, I prefer that there is competition | 02:03 |
| king_aoeu | why do you prefer competition? | 02:04 |
| king_aoeu | i never understoud that | 02:04 |
| king_aoeu | maybe i'm missing something | 02:04 |
| berndhs | I prefer to have choices | 02:04 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I prefer sony phones over nokias cos of some nice features they UI have | 02:04 |
| king_aoeu | i don't think you prefer choices | 02:04 |
| Cosmo[PB] | king_aoeu: look at it this way | 02:04 |
| berndhs | and I know that uniformity results in standstill, eliminates progress | 02:04 |
| king_aoeu | why can't both device have the "nice ui features"? | 02:04 |
| Cosmo[PB] | lets say all phones you the same OS with the same UI | 02:04 |
| Cosmo[PB] | now lets say you hated that OS / UI | 02:04 |
| Cosmo[PB] | would you want choice / variety then? | 02:05 |
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| king_aoeu | that depends | 02:05 |
| berndhs | if every phone was made the way I like it, I would ahve to listen to other people complain all day | 02:05 |
| king_aoeu | right now, when people don't agree with one design decision, they start another thing/project/alternative completely | 02:05 |
| Cosmo[PB] | moblin -> meego -> tixen | 02:06 |
| Cosmo[PB] | tizen* | 02:06 |
| king_aoeu | why do they do that? | 02:06 |
| king_aoeu | isn't simpler to try to change the original product | 02:06 |
| king_aoeu | to improve it? | 02:06 |
| berndhs | why should people _not_ design something based on their own ideas ? | 02:06 |
| Cosmo[PB] | probably the same reason forks are created | 02:06 |
| king_aoeu | at the end of the day, we have 1000 choices, but all of them are complementary, none of them is complete | 02:06 |
| king_aoeu | but they all have 90% of the same features | 02:06 |
| berndhs | so what ? | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | that's bad | 02:07 |
| berndhs | what is bad about that ? | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | that makes too much choices, too much thing to support, too much fragmentation | 02:07 |
| Cosmo[PB] | depends, how many users do you know who want 100% of the features? | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | let's say i'm a programmer | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | i want to make an app for mobile phone | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | well, i have to make 10+ apps | 02:07 |
| berndhs | why are too many choices bad ? | 02:07 |
| king_aoeu | because people don't agree with eachother | 02:07 |
| berndhs | people disagree whether you want them to or not, can't do anything about that | 02:08 |
| Cosmo[PB] | lets say you made a virus instead | 02:08 |
| king_aoeu | if you want to talk about choice, watch this first http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html | 02:08 |
| berndhs | the only people who don't disagree are already dead :) | 02:08 |
| king_aoeu | forking to avoid viruses is a lame argument | 02:08 |
| Cosmo[PB] | the forking was unreleated to my virus comment | 02:09 |
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| king_aoeu | why can't we have 1 screw head type? | 02:09 |
| king_aoeu | i need 10 fucking screwdrivers because some people decided to make their own screws | 02:09 |
| berndhs | because different screw head types work for different purposes | 02:09 |
| king_aoeu | well, not always | 02:09 |
| king_aoeu | i think with 2 we would be ok | 02:09 |
| king_aoeu | there should be a default | 02:10 |
| berndhs | sure some of them are to spite non-authorized maintenance | 02:10 |
| berndhs | but there is not single best way of doing things | 02:10 |
| king_aoeu | that's bad too, but let's not talk about that now | 02:10 |
| king_aoeu | don't you like standards? | 02:10 |
| berndhs | not the best color, size or shape | 02:10 |
| king_aoeu | honestly, i think we should speak 1 language | 02:10 |
| berndhs | I love standards, I have some of my own :) | 02:10 |
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| king_aoeu | we should, for exemple, all speak english | 02:11 |
| king_aoeu | that would facilitate communication | 02:11 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | would you be saying that if you weren't an english speaker? | 02:11 |
| king_aoeu | i'm not a native english speaker | 02:11 |
| king_aoeu | i learned it | 02:11 |
| king_aoeu | but since it's one of the most commonly used language | 02:11 |
| Cosmo[PB] | it would make the world a posher sounding place | 02:11 |
| berndhs | english is good for expressing some things, completely inadequete for others | 02:12 |
| king_aoeu | and that a lot of documentation and education ressources are written in it, we should start there | 02:12 |
| king_aoeu | let's create 1 ultimate language then | 02:12 |
| berndhs | that's been tried, didn't work | 02:12 |
| king_aoeu | there's no real reason to have that many languages | 02:12 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I like that the french have multiple ways of saying things like they (female), they (male), they (mixed) | 02:12 |
| berndhs | so what ? | 02:12 |
| king_aoeu | esperanto wasn't a better language | 02:12 |
| king_aoeu | i'm french and don't like the gender thing | 02:12 |
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| king_aoeu | but anyways, it's another debate | 02:13 |
| berndhs | people in specialized disciplines, like computing or carpentry or sailing, have their own langues | 02:13 |
| Cosmo[PB] | king_aoeu: watch stephen fry's Planet Word, it's a good show about language | 02:13 |
| king_aoeu | i'm not that interested in language | 02:13 |
| king_aoeu | that's not why i'm here | 02:13 |
| king_aoeu | but thanks for the tip tho | 02:13 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | if you think about it, I speak one english language and several computing languages to various degrees | 02:13 |
| Cosmo[PB] | (it's on the bbc) | 02:13 |
| king_aoeu | i think there is a LOT of room for improvement in mobile computing | 02:13 |
| king_aoeu | ux-wise | 02:14 |
| berndhs | yes there certainly is | 02:14 |
| Cosmo[PB] | touch or non-touch? | 02:14 |
| berndhs | for example, all the UXs are made for mobile people who sit on their butts are are bored | 02:14 |
| Cosmo[PB] | like I don't like the way only 2 things auto-rotate on my phone and everything else is portrait | 02:14 |
| king_aoeu | not everything should be displayable in landscape | 02:15 |
| king_aoeu | i don't implement landscape in my apps | 02:15 |
| berndhs | UXs are made to waste time and do some shopping | 02:15 |
| king_aoeu | what? | 02:15 |
| berndhs | mobile devices are entertainment delivery systems | 02:15 |
| berndhs | for people wjho don't otherwise do anything | 02:15 |
| berndhs | if yoiu're already doing soemthing, they don't help you with that | 02:16 |
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| king_aoeu | mobile computers are more powerful than any computer | 02:16 |
| berndhs | yes but they are used for passive entertainment | 02:16 |
| king_aoeu | not always | 02:16 |
| berndhs | listen to canned music, watch movies | 02:16 |
| king_aoeu | that's not the only thing they're good at | 02:17 |
| berndhs | well and do shopping | 02:17 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I want mine to text, talk and take pics when I don't have my D-SLR on me, other than that I don't care | 02:17 |
| king_aoeu | then you're using it wrong | 02:17 |
| king_aoeu | it's a personal assistant | 02:17 |
| berndhs | i'm saying that is what the UXs are designed for | 02:17 |
| king_aoeu | it helps you remember things, take notes, communicate, find places | 02:17 |
| berndhs | i'm including twitter and facebook in "idle entertainment" | 02:18 |
| king_aoeu | what about task management? | 02:18 |
| king_aoeu | do you think it's important? | 02:18 |
| berndhs | sure you can iuse them for that | 02:18 |
| berndhs | but that is not what the vast majority of users do | 02:18 |
| king_aoeu | i think it's one of the most important element of a mobile phone | 02:18 |
| berndhs | and that is not the focus of UX design these days | 02:18 |
| king_aoeu | how do people do task management? | 02:18 |
| king_aoeu | why isn't the focus of UX design? | 02:18 |
| berndhs | ask the designers :) | 02:19 |
| Cosmo[PB] | oh oh, I also used to phone my phone at people / dogs / walls | 02:19 |
| king_aoeu | o.O | 02:19 |
| Cosmo[PB] | anger issues are fun ^.^ | 02:19 |
| berndhs | you can also use a phone to read books | 02:20 |
| king_aoeu | we won't list everything a phone can do | 02:20 |
| berndhs | as a weight to keep the right pages open | 02:20 |
| king_aoeu | but theres some thing people already do, that a phone can help do better | 02:20 |
| king_aoeu | i don't know about you, but i have a lot of different "inboxes" | 02:20 |
| berndhs | my email doesnt fit on a phone screen | 02:21 |
| Cosmo[PB] | I have my phone on 24/7 and always nearby, but I don't know why | 02:21 |
| king_aoeu | mail, email, rss feed, twitter, facebook, bank, school stuff, task, event, etc. | 02:21 |
| king_aoeu | maybe i made it a bit narrow by talking about "mobile computing" | 02:21 |
| king_aoeu | let's say i want to reinvent computing | 02:21 |
| * Cosmo[PB] is on pay as you go and doesn't have free internet on his phone | 02:21 | |
| *** Cosmo[PB] is now known as CosmoHill | 02:22 | |
| berndhs | the creens are too small right now, you can't read much of substance on them | 02:22 |
| king_aoeu | it's not meant to be a reading device | 02:22 |
| king_aoeu | tablets are | 02:22 |
| berndhs | right, but that is still a limitations | 02:22 |
| berndhs | most tablets are too small too | 02:22 |
| king_aoeu | that's why we should stop talking about mobile computing, and talk about computing in general | 02:22 |
| king_aoeu | i want to reinvent computing | 02:23 |
| berndhs | all right | 02:23 |
| king_aoeu | there are too many inboxes / data sources | 02:23 |
| king_aoeu | how do i cope with that? | 02:23 |
| king_aoeu | without having to refresh 10+ tabs | 02:23 |
| berndhs | we have lots of computing power today, practically all of it is wasted on frivolous things | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | cloud computing with a load of dumb clients? | 02:23 |
| king_aoeu | and think about it all the time? | 02:23 |
| CosmoHill | berndhs: farm ville? | 02:23 |
| berndhs | animated windows :) | 02:24 |
| king_aoeu | why are you in this channel? | 02:24 |
| king_aoeu | beside the people | 02:24 |
| king_aoeu | what make you come here? | 02:24 |
| berndhs | I'm in several channels :) | 02:24 |
| CosmoHill | I wanted to learn more about bigger distros and GUI stuff | 02:24 |
| king_aoeu | but why in this one in particular? | 02:24 |
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| king_aoeu | what do you like about distros and gui? | 02:25 |
| berndhs | I was interested in MeeGo when it was new, now I keep Cosmo company | 02:25 |
| king_aoeu | aren't you also interested in usuability and ux? | 02:25 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 02:25 |
| king_aoeu | this field lacks innovation | 02:25 |
| berndhs | I have my own UX project, perhaps it will amount to something one day :) | 02:25 |
| king_aoeu | most innovations are superficial | 02:25 |
| king_aoeu | can you talk about your project? | 02:25 |
| king_aoeu | if you dont mind | 02:25 |
| CosmoHill | I can build a linux distro from the ground up, but only so far as the command line | 02:25 |
| CosmoHill | I lack GUI experience | 02:26 |
| berndhs | i already did, I want a UX for devices that enhance other things people already do | 02:26 |
| king_aoeu | CosmoHill, you're basically my nightmare | 02:26 |
| CosmoHill | sweet | 02:26 |
| king_aoeu | berndhs, can you give me an example? | 02:26 |
| berndhs | sailing, snowmobiling, farming | 02:26 |
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| king_aoeu | CosmoHill, you reinvent the wheel by creating other distros | 02:26 |
| king_aoeu | there are 10000s of them | 02:26 |
| * CosmoHill is actually flattered | 02:26 | |
| CosmoHill | king_aoeu: oh no no | 02:27 |
| CosmoHill | I'm saying I can | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | none of them are successful (beside the small ones) | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | if it's for learning only, ok | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | but don't start doing a distro for everything, oh please | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | berndhs, example? | 02:27 |
| berndhs | what is successful ? a thousand users, a million, a billion ? | 02:27 |
| CosmoHill | Linux from scratch, it's a book to teach you about how a basic linux distro works, how the packages come together to make a working OS | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | i know lfs | 02:27 |
| araujo | we are getting back to the end of 90's phenomenon (one decade later) but for mobile devices, ... get ready to see plenty of mobile linux distros | 02:27 |
| king_aoeu | omfg | 02:28 |
| CosmoHill | king_aoeu: good :) | 02:28 |
| araujo | this is just getting started | 02:28 |
| king_aoeu | they're only good as proof of concept | 02:28 |
| king_aoeu | but as long term project | 02:28 |
| king_aoeu | almost none survive | 02:28 |
| berndhs | so ? | 02:28 |
| king_aoeu | fuck darwinism | 02:28 |
| araujo | king_aoeu, none what? | 02:28 |
| berndhs | what is wrong with software that is only used by those who make it ? | 02:28 |
| * araujo remembers his lfs days (were fun) | 02:28 | |
| king_aoeu | that's a waste of time | 02:29 |
| berndhs | no it isn't | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | why don't you use what others do? | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | araujo: what username did you want? | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | yes it is | 02:29 |
| araujo | king_aoeu, many big projects start like that | 02:29 |
| berndhs | because I often don't like what others do, so I do it myself | 02:29 |
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| CosmoHill | wait "learning is a waste of time"? is that what you're saying? | 02:29 |
| araujo | CosmoHill, did I want? | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | berndhs, you're doing it wrong | 02:29 |
| SpeedEvil | berndhs: The problem with software used only by those that make it is it usually dies rapidly. | 02:29 |
| CosmoHill | use* for LFS | 02:29 |
| berndhs | no i'm not | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | you contribute to the biggest problem in society | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | omg | 02:29 |
| king_aoeu | yes u r | 02:29 |
| berndhs | i don't create problems for anyone | 02:30 |
| araujo | king_aoeu, heard about Linux? ... it started like a project intended to be used by only one guy | 02:30 |
| king_aoeu | the problem is not that it dies (its a consequence) | 02:30 |
| berndhs | other people can use my software or not use it, not my problem | 02:30 |
| king_aoeu | i used linux as my main OS for months | 02:30 |
| CosmoHill | only months? | 02:30 |
| king_aoeu | now i'm on windows because i make WP7 apps on .NET | 02:30 |
| * araujo off to dinner better | 02:30 | |
| berndhs | i have a windows machine that I turn on every few months to make sure it still works | 02:31 |
| CosmoHill | araujo: cool | 02:31 |
| king_aoeu | there are no reason for you to reinvent the wheel | 02:31 |
| king_aoeu | unless you want to make something better, which is unfortunately not the case | 02:31 |
| berndhs | there is no reason for me to use what other's like either | 02:31 |
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| king_aoeu | why do society exists if we don't use what people share? | 02:31 |
| berndhs | why do i have to use someone else's stupid ideas ? | 02:32 |
| king_aoeu | berndhs, i don't think you have such specific needs | 02:32 |
| berndhs | i have a few specific preferences | 02:32 |
| king_aoeu | do you share your work with the world? | 02:32 |
| berndhs | Chairman Mao might not think so, but I do | 02:32 |
| king_aoeu | or keep it for you? | 02:32 |
| berndhs | most of my work is public, people can use it if they want | 02:32 |
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| king_aoeu | but people don't find it | 02:32 |
| berndhs | its on public repos | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | and create their own | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | and etc. and etc. | 02:33 |
| berndhs | that's not my problem | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | what's wrong with people making their down stuff? | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | own* | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | it's everyone's problem | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | you selfish | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | it's a waste of time | 02:33 |
| berndhs | i'm not trying to save the world with my software | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | use what is already done | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | so how do you learn? | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | learning is another thing | 02:33 |
| berndhs | it may be a waste of time, but it is _my_ time i'm wasting | 02:33 |
| king_aoeu | that's the ONLY reason to reinvent the wheel | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | what if someone does it and makes it better? | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | even though i think we should learn by innovating, but schools don't work like that -.- | 02:34 |
| berndhs | learning is good, practice is good | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | "your time" is not only yours | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | you waste it | 02:34 |
| berndhs | yes it is, who else owns my time ? | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | you could be creating useful stuff instead | 02:34 |
| berndhs | it is useful | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | you're a parasite | 02:34 |
| king_aoeu | no it's not | 02:34 |
| CosmoHill | you hold strong opinions | 02:35 |
| king_aoeu | yes i do | 02:35 |
| berndhs | if someone wants me to work for them, they should pay me in some way | 02:35 |
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| king_aoeu | i think we should all share freely | 02:35 |
| berndhs | I do | 02:35 |
| king_aoeu | that way we take and give at the same time | 02:35 |
| king_aoeu | the problem is, you don't create stuff people want | 02:35 |
| berndhs | I use free open software and I publish what I do with it | 02:36 |
| berndhs | a few people download my things, I have no idea if it helps them | 02:36 |
| king_aoeu | then the problem may not be with you but with distributing/sharing systems | 02:36 |
| berndhs | sure, I don't know if it reaches the right people | 02:36 |
| berndhs | but there are lots of lazy folks out there that I don't realllty want to work for | 02:37 |
| king_aoeu | we won't go into the details of why you created your own thing, but why didn't you ask the original content creator to adapt it to your ideas? | 02:37 |
| king_aoeu | by reinventing the wheel, you're worst than lazy | 02:37 |
| king_aoeu | no offense | 02:37 |
| berndhs | waiting for them to change theirs would take longer than doing it myself | 02:37 |
| king_aoeu | at least, lazy people don't waste energy | 02:37 |
| king_aoeu | not if you could change it yourself | 02:38 |
| berndhs | but my stuff is not a reinvention, it is better :) | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | if it's better, there's no reason for it not to be in the original product | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | if it's not, then it's your responsability to make sure it's implemented | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | then you can come back to the original product | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | and use it | 02:38 |
| berndhs | sometimes not, but then I would have to coordinate with the original product | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | and fork it if needed, not fork the one you forked before | 02:38 |
| king_aoeu | if that helps others, i think you should | 02:39 |
| berndhs | too much forking gives you too much ugly code, too many design compromises | 02:39 |
| berndhs | uniformity is for communists and monopolists :) | 02:39 |
| king_aoeu | you contradict yourself | 02:40 |
| berndhs | monopolists like uniformity and so do communists | 02:40 |
| king_aoeu | the two sentences | 02:40 |
| king_aoeu | forking creates diversitiy (which you seem to agree with, while i don't), but you say it's bad | 02:40 |
| king_aoeu | are you for or against it? | 02:41 |
| king_aoeu | no forking means uniformity | 02:41 |
| berndhs | no too many compromizes are often bad | 02:41 |
| king_aoeu | means communism :) | 02:41 |
| king_aoeu | no compromizes | 02:41 |
| king_aoeu | compromizes don't exist, stupid people make them | 02:41 |
| berndhs | forking means keeping lots of history | 02:41 |
| king_aoeu | doesn't it mean creating another project from the original? | 02:42 |
| king_aoeu | like different versions? | 02:42 |
| berndhs | you can't accomodate too many design goals without sacrificing quality | 02:42 |
| king_aoeu | i think it's possible | 02:42 |
| berndhs | depens on the goals | 02:42 |
| king_aoeu | it always depends -_- | 02:43 |
| berndhs | some are compatible, some are not | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | so, my idea is to aggregate everything | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | email, sms, phonecall, news, request, etc. | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | in one single interface | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | so people only have to use it | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | and don't have to user other clients | 02:43 |
| king_aoeu | isn't it the best thing ever? | 02:44 |
| king_aoeu | one single inbox | 02:44 |
| berndhs | no :) | 02:44 |
| king_aoeu | why not? | 02:44 |
| SpeedEvil | A client optimised for SMS with a simple two-party comms, and one optimised for a deeply threaded email discussion are going to look _very_ different. | 02:44 |
| berndhs | because the controls for the different activities are different | 02:44 |
| king_aoeu | i'm sure there are similarities | 02:45 |
| king_aoeu | and we can group them up | 02:45 |
| king_aoeu | and then add service-specific controls | 02:45 |
| king_aoeu | if necessary | 02:45 |
| king_aoeu | but taht's a compromise | 02:45 |
| berndhs | if you do that, the user interface changes depending on what you are doing | 02:45 |
| king_aoeu | true, but not as much as using different client | 02:46 |
| berndhs | and all you ahve done is softened the boundaries between applications | 02:46 |
| king_aoeu | isn't that good enough? | 02:46 |
| berndhs | not necessarily | 02:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: that's why I said modest is near to useless, as it implements more of a SMS chat interface rather than a proper mail management | 02:46 |
| berndhs | users can't easily recognize what it is they are doing at the moment | 02:46 |
| king_aoeu | but one interface for irc, sms, facebook chat, etc would work, right? | 02:47 |
| berndhs | different chat types probably | 02:47 |
| SpeedEvil | To a degree, yes. | 02:47 |
| * DocScrutinizer has a deja vu | 02:47 | |
| SpeedEvil | But IRC | 02:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | as that very idea came up only a few days ago, elsewhere | 02:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Fitting IRC channels into something for SMS isn't trivial. | 02:47 |
| SpeedEvil | For PMs - probably not insane. | 02:48 |
| king_aoeu | i think it's not that difficult | 02:48 |
| king_aoeu | they're just conversations | 02:48 |
| king_aoeu | with a variable amount of people involved | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think it's inconvenient | 02:48 |
| king_aoeu | why? | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | not compatible with the way communication works | 02:49 |
| SpeedEvil | A flowing thousand line conversation between a couple of dozen people is quite differet from a two-party iteraction. | 02:49 |
| berndhs | SMS is completely half-duplex, like twitter. IRC much less so | 02:49 |
| king_aoeu | it's different, but the same interface can handle both | 02:49 |
| king_aoeu | same for news/blog/link aggregator | 02:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm a fan of UIs tailored-to-fit a certain specific usecase | 02:50 |
| king_aoeu | one client, supporting content, title, comments and rating | 02:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't want rating for my SMS | 02:50 |
| king_aoeu | DocScrutinizer, that can't work, we would have 100000000000s interface (and more!) | 02:50 |
| king_aoeu | it's just going to be disabled | 02:51 |
| king_aoeu | i don't know if you browser hacker news or reddit? | 02:51 |
| berndhs | you can wrap a big client around all this, and call it a browser | 02:51 |
| king_aoeu | but they're really similar | 02:51 |
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| king_aoeu | a browser has completely different interfaces | 02:52 |
| king_aoeu | let me remind you my problem | 02:52 |
| king_aoeu | i don't want to visit all these sites | 02:52 |
| berndhs | yes that would be a vast waste of resources, that's why it will become popular :) | 02:52 |
| king_aoeu | what? | 02:53 |
| king_aoeu | what's a waste and what's popular? | 02:53 |
| berndhs | implementing everything in a browser | 02:53 |
| king_aoeu | browser or not, it's a technical question | 02:53 |
| king_aoeu | and it's not important right now | 02:53 |
| king_aoeu | the implementation is secondary | 02:54 |
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| king_aoeu | what's important is usability | 02:54 |
| berndhs | sure, and having clients that actually work | 02:54 |
| berndhs | a frightening percentage of applications, commercial or free, are broken | 02:55 |
| king_aoeu | working is not that important | 02:57 |
| king_aoeu | sorry, it is | 02:57 |
| king_aoeu | but it's not the issue i have | 02:57 |
| king_aoeu | look, i have lots of apps on my smartphone, but i want 1 that rule them all | 02:57 |
| king_aoeu | is it possible? | 02:57 |
| berndhs | possible? sure. Desirable? for you perhaps | 02:58 |
| berndhs | I would like a communications device, like a phone, that actually tells me _why_ networking isn't working | 02:58 |
| berndhs | as opposed to just hanging | 02:59 |
| berndhs | the fact that 80% of users can't do anything about it doesn't interest me | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's already one such app to rule them all, and always been: it's called OS | 03:01 |
| king_aoeu | guys, you're not helping -.- | 03:01 |
| king_aoeu | berndhs is too focused on real world stuff | 03:01 |
| king_aoeu | and DocScrutinizer is talking to me about OS | 03:01 |
| king_aoeu | just an advice, don't reinvent the wheel unless it's rounder | 03:03 |
| berndhs | i just dont like to much uniformity its boring | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry we can't follow to your spiritual excellence | 03:03 |
| berndhs | and I like making wheels | 03:03 |
| berndhs | can't have enough wheels :) | 03:03 |
| berndhs | most things I make are not "feature complete", but they have all the features that I actually use | 03:05 |
| king_aoeu | i still think there should be 1 thing to rule them all | 03:05 |
| king_aoeu | and i don't believe in subjectivity | 03:05 |
| king_aoeu | subjectivity is retarded | 03:06 |
| king_aoeu | you're either wrong or right | 03:06 |
| king_aoeu | both can't be true at the same time in the same context | 03:06 |
| king_aoeu | so if there's 2 apps for the same thing, 1 group of user is retarded | 03:06 |
| berndhs | nobody has complete enough knowledge to be right | 03:06 |
| king_aoeu | i agree | 03:06 |
| berndhs | but in your analysis, I'm right and the rest of the world is retarted maybe :) | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | but that doesn't mean we don't have to aim high | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | no | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | that's not possible | 03:07 |
| berndhs | it is very unlikely sure | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | if you were right, people would use your stuff | 03:07 |
| berndhs | but I just have my own objectives | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | anyways, i have to go | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | it's been nice talking with you | 03:07 |
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| king_aoeu | even if you have different opinion than mine | 03:07 |
| king_aoeu | which is perfectly fine, since i don't like talking with people i agree with | 03:08 |
| CosmoHill | night night | 03:08 |
| berndhs | good night | 03:08 |
| king_aoeu | well, idon't "hate" it, but it doesn't allow me to improve | 03:08 |
| king_aoeu | see ya | 03:08 |
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| CosmoHill | hey slaine, wanna watch unstopable with me? | 16:07 |
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| slaine | CosmoHill: what's it about ? | 16:08 |
| CosmoHill | about a train that leaves on full throttle but with no driver | 16:08 |
| CosmoHill | has to be stopped before many many die or something | 16:09 |
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| aheinecke_ | hi, is there a downtime of the meego public obs? i can't connect to http://build.pub.meego.com/ for quite some time now | 17:25 |
| CosmoHill | there are pronblems with it | 17:27 |
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| X-Fade | aheinecke_: Works for me? | 17:27 |
| X-Fade | CosmoHill: There shouldn't? | 17:27 |
| * CosmoHill shurgs | 17:28 | |
| berndhs | works from over here | 17:28 |
| CosmoHill | it loads for me | 17:28 |
| aheinecke_ | thanks, i could not connect to it on friday and can't again but everything else in the internet works for probably a routing problem | 17:28 |
| aheinecke_ | thanks for checking | 17:29 |
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| berndhs | yeah looks like they're after aheinecke_ specifically | 17:29 |
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| aheinecke_ | ok this is weird with firefox version 3.5.16 i get "The connection was reset" but with konqueror it works fine | 17:32 |
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| jesuschrist | hi | 21:13 |
| CosmoHill | evening | 21:14 |
| CosmoHill | wait a minute | 21:14 |
| auke | wait for what? | 21:15 |
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| CosmoHill | my program to finish | 21:15 |
| CosmoHill | PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND | 21:16 |
| CosmoHill | 9695 cosmo 30 10 2614m 1.8g 1084 R 100 5.7 20:52.23 gmp_test | 21:16 |
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| jesuschrist | gri | 21:26 |
| jesuschrist | you here ? | 21:26 |
| gri | jesuschrist: only physically, very tired ... | 21:26 |
| jesuschrist | any news on web2sms ? you said i could try it :( | 21:27 |
| gri | well, I said next week which is this week but not today :P | 21:27 |
| gri | the server now loads all plugins but they are not running multithreaded and therefore block each other .. this has to be fixed, hope I have time for that in the next days | 21:29 |
| jesuschrist | i just need betamax | 21:29 |
| jesuschrist | plugin | 21:29 |
| jesuschrist | hmm | 21:29 |
| jesuschrist | i also saw the website on dev page | 21:29 |
| gri | If the server is not running the client application does nothing, so you have to wait :) | 21:30 |
| jesuschrist | oh | 21:30 |
| jesuschrist | :p | 21:30 |
| jesuschrist | i could do some beta testing | 21:30 |
| jesuschrist | rly | 21:30 |
| jesuschrist | gri your next project will be a cutetube alike app for youporn | 21:32 |
| jesuschrist | just an idea | 21:33 |
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| doc__ | hello, everyone | 21:43 |
| CosmoHill | hi | 21:43 |
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| jesuschrist | hi doc__ | 21:44 |
| jesuschrist | sup? | 21:44 |
| doc__ | hey, is development on meego dead? I was about to try developing software for meego | 21:45 |
| doc__ | im cool | 21:45 |
| jesuschrist | doc | 21:45 |
| jesuschrist | you should try | 21:45 |
| jesuschrist | we need apps! | 21:45 |
| berndhs | make portable apps, then you don't have to care | 21:46 |
| jesuschrist | doc__ : we desperetaly need a voip auto dialer | 21:46 |
| jesuschrist | you could save meego | 21:46 |
| jesuschrist | and the whole earth ! | 21:46 |
| Milo- | I wasn't even able to install meego sdk on ubuntu | 21:46 |
| Milo- | so meh 8) | 21:46 |
| doc__ | installing it on ubuntu was easy in my case | 21:47 |
| doc__ | will develop apps with pleasure, but there are two things that stop me 1) tizen; 2) client base | 21:47 |
| berndhs | the client base can't stop you, there isn't one | 21:48 |
| jesuschrist | i think tizen is an embarassing name | 21:48 |
| Milo- | who cares about tizen? it's pointless html5 wizardry | 21:48 |
| jesuschrist | i wouldnt develop for something with such a name | 21:48 |
| doc__ | yeah, that's true | 21:49 |
| auke | right, because your nick is so awesome :) | 21:49 |
| jesuschrist | ofc it is | 21:49 |
| Milo- | I don't believe in you, jesuschrist | 21:49 |
| doc__ | but still, is there a hope for meego? I kinda like this idea of meego | 21:49 |
| jesuschrist | i dont believe in you either mihero | 21:49 |
| jesuschrist | ahem Milo- | 21:49 |
| Milo- | 8) | 21:49 |
| auke | meego code will live on. the name is irrelevant | 21:50 |
| Milo- | if I was your ssh-client, I would tell you to go away, because you don't exist | 21:50 |
| Milo- | and with that, I finish the joke | 21:50 |
| jesuschrist | im the thing you get when you sudo once you are root Milo- | 21:50 |
| doc__ | stop off topic, guys | 21:50 |
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| doc__ | who knows how to get nokia n9 in uk? | 21:51 |
| doc__ | for development purposes | 21:51 |
| doc__ | testing etc... | 21:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Purchase one on ebay. | 21:52 |
| jesuschrist | or from malaysia | 21:52 |
| jesuschrist | cheap there | 21:52 |
| doc__ | hmm, malaysia, i have couple of friends there | 21:52 |
| berndhs | fly to australia, get them drunk, take their N9s | 21:53 |
| doc__ | long live meego!!! =) | 21:53 |
| doc__ | =) | 21:53 |
| jesuschrist | a-meego | 21:53 |
| SpeedEvil | Ebay seems to average 470 pounds, inc shipping, from reputable sellers. | 21:54 |
| SpeedEvil | For 16G | 21:54 |
| doc__ | hmm, who is professional developer here? | 21:55 |
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| doc__ | does it mean that there is no professional developer here? | 21:56 |
| SpeedEvil | There are. | 21:56 |
| gri | jesuschrist: Sorry, was helping girlfriend with maths ... no I won't do a porn app :) | 21:57 |
| SpeedEvil | They are possibly not here right now, however. | 21:57 |
| jesuschrist | gri : an ODF editor for n9 then | 21:58 |
| berndhs | i'm very professional | 21:58 |
| jesuschrist | that would rox | 21:58 |
| jesuschrist | copy&paste terminal | 21:58 |
| jesuschrist | otherwise | 21:58 |
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| jesuschrist | i wonder if anyone tried movinf the flash plugin from n900 to n9 | 21:59 |
| jesuschrist | and tested it with fennec | 21:59 |
| gri | jesuschrist: Well, There would be many cool ideas but you need someone with the time to implement them | 21:59 |
| jesuschrist | oh cmon you are always here chatting with girls ppfff | 22:00 |
| doc__ | so who knows C++ well enough to write apps for meego? | 22:00 |
| doc__ | here | 22:01 |
| gri | huh? I'm not allowed to chat with girls :) | 22:01 |
| berndhs | doc__: lots of people. I do. | 22:02 |
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| doc__ | ok then, I will contribute to meego from now, I hope that there is a hope left for meego | 22:06 |
| * blackblaze cringes at the mention of C++ | 22:08 | |
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| blackblaze | I write apps for meego and otherwise, but in C. Then again, I only write system-level and console code. I leave all the GUI/OOP goop to others | 22:10 |
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| * CosmoHill just spent 5 / 10 mins with my bro and dad hunting on the floor for his earring | 22:35 | |
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| auke | CosmoHill: | 22:42 |
| auke | TMI ;) | 22:42 |
| CosmoHill | i said ear :p | 22:43 |
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| Choom | greetings | 23:20 |
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| Choom | anyone here with an N9? I'm interested in hearing about the user experience, whether the UI's animations are fluid, whether one is still required to wait for the browser to render parts of pages that were off-screen, whether the maps app is still as slow as it was on the n900, and how good it is compared to an iphone | 23:22 |
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| Chaz6 | Yep, i have an n900 and a n9, maps is much smoother, and ui | 23:32 |
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| Chaz6 | web browser i havent really used much but it's faster as well | 23:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Faster, but less featured in important ways. | 23:34 |
| SpeedEvil | No 'pointer' mode, no flash, no way to set the user-agent string. | 23:34 |
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| leinir | well, it's in every way a mobile browser - if you want a more full featured browser, the mobile version of firefox is on its way, and i'm sure others will build an alternative webkit based browser as well | 23:34 |
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| SpeedEvil | Also harder to select precisely as no stylus. | 23:35 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm comparing n9 with n900 browser. | 23:35 |
| leinir | personally i quite like the browser, but it isn't the geeky browser you might want - which is why i'm mentioning the other two :) | 23:36 |
| leinir | Though i agree, the lack of ability to switch the user agent (or, to put it in a less geeky manner, turn off the mobile web page requests) would be kind of useful | 23:37 |
| leinir | i know at least the android browser on htc devices will do that | 23:37 |
| SpeedEvil | a couple of pages are practucally reduced to uselessness with that for me. | 23:38 |
| jabis | there is an aurorabuild, actually two versions, of mobile firefox already, that install without pain on N9 | 23:38 |
| leinir | jabis: good call, thanks :) | 23:39 |
| jabis | fennec versions 9 & 10 - I think you can find them on my-meego.com or sth :) | 23:39 |
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| jabis | I use the tenner over nokia browser simply because of self-signed cert issues that you can't override in nokia browser -.- | 23:41 |
| jabis | *fennec | 23:41 |
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| leinir | Hmm... well, that i'm sure has to simply be a bug... reported? :) | 23:44 |
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| jabis | haven't had the time, but I'd suspect it's already reported | 23:47 |
| leinir | that one does sound like a likely geek-rage target sort of problem :) | 23:48 |
| jabis | (going on some serious software development mayhem with an ERP-system currently - had to seize everything else :/ ) | 23:48 |
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| leinir | ah, right :) | 23:48 |
| jabis | don't you just hate it, when you get a new toy you don't have time to play with x) | 23:48 |
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