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| berndhs | ~seen lbt | 01:52 |
|---|---|---|
| infobot | lbt <~david@Maemo/community/contributor/lbt> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 2d 16h 25m 43s ago, saying: 'this should be 1.2 compliance stage'. | 01:52 |
| berndhs | ~seen X-fade | 01:53 |
| infobot | x-fade is currently on #maemo #meego. Has said a total of 43 messages. Is idling for 1d 8h 26m 19s, last said: 'mee familia :)'. | 01:53 |
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| CosmoHill | they're hiding | 02:00 |
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| berndhs | yeah probably out drinking with the Finns | 02:13 |
| CosmoHill | huh, "hamster" isn't in my phone's dictionary | 02:14 |
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| Mek | hmm, meego community obs seems broken... I'm logged in but whenever I try to do something that requires being logged in it gives a 401 and claims I'm not logged in (while it still says I'm logged in at the top of the page) | 02:37 |
| Mek | and the same issue when trying to use osc | 02:37 |
| berndhs | Mek: i see the same | 02:39 |
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| ChameleonSys | lrn 2 android pussies, meego = poop | 02:56 |
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| CosmoHill | too slow | 02:57 |
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| CosmoHill | Mek and berndhs, I doubt it will be fixed before monday | 02:58 |
| berndhs | yeah probably | 02:58 |
| CosmoHill | Finland is GMT+2 right? | 02:58 |
| Mek | +3 in summer I think :) | 02:58 |
| berndhs | i think so, 2 hours east | 02:58 |
| CosmoHill | it's BST atm so yeah | 02:59 |
| berndhs | over there with the old commies | 02:59 |
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| CosmoHill | I should go to bed | 03:13 |
| sofar | I was about to say | 03:16 |
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| CosmoHill | :p | 03:20 |
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| Termana | morning | 03:30 |
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| berndhs | evening | 03:30 |
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| sofar | afternoon :) | 03:36 |
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| timeless_xchat | any nokians awake? | 07:44 |
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| * lcuk does a somersault back into the channel | 10:10 | |
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| Stskeeps | morn lcuk | 10:12 |
| lcuk | hey Stskeeps \o how is Tampere? | 10:12 |
| Stskeeps | it was good, now in hel(l) | 10:12 |
| * lcuk just got back from holiday | 10:13 | |
| Stskeeps | we all assumed you were dead :P | 10:13 |
| lcuk | yeah, the pile of emails and twitter messages told me as much | 10:13 |
| lcuk | just taking vacation early because of Tracy bump | 10:14 |
| timoph | huh. lcuk is alive? | 10:14 |
| Stskeeps | back from the dead. get him, he's a zombie! | 10:14 |
| * lcuk is now advanced AI | 10:14 | |
| timoph | :D | 10:15 |
| lcuk | I saw some bits of the talks yesterday | 10:16 |
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| lcuk | but is there a central place for the writeups? | 10:16 |
| dm8tbr | lcuk: there will be hopefully better recordings *sigh* | 10:16 |
| dm8tbr | at some point our streaming totally crapped out | 10:16 |
| lcuk | dm8tbr, it happens | 10:16 |
| lcuk | keeps you busy! | 10:16 |
| dm8tbr | yeh | 10:17 |
| dm8tbr | I've got prolly 150G worth of DV footage from one cam only | 10:17 |
| dm8tbr | 720p IIRC | 10:17 |
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| lcuk | Myrtti has also got some recordings | 10:17 |
| dm8tbr | yeah, they were also shooting with n8s etc | 10:17 |
| dm8tbr | and we have stream-dumps | 10:18 |
| lcuk | good! | 10:18 |
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| lcuk | it would be interesting to get the collaborative editing apps up and running and pool all the media | 10:19 |
| lcuk | hi Venemo \o | 10:19 |
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| lcuk | morning mmeeks \o | 10:20 |
| Venemo | hey lcuk! :) | 10:20 |
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| Venemo | lcuk, long time no see :P | 10:20 |
| lcuk | not that long, only a holiday. | 10:20 |
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| lcuk | Venemo, http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/59182570713255936 | 10:34 |
| Venemo | nice :) | 10:34 |
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| lcuk | timoph, were there any hiccups with the meego-fi development usc stick or did it happily boot meego and let people concentrate on making apps? | 10:58 |
| timoph | ah. it wasn't that kind of stick. We just collected different meego images, etc. into it. Haven't tried the stick from appup lab yet | 11:02 |
| lcuk | timoph, ooh so you have a multiboot usb stick somewhere? | 11:03 |
| Myrtti | it didn't work for me | 11:03 |
| lcuk | morning Myrtti \o | 11:03 |
| Myrtti | moin :-) | 11:03 |
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| srikanth_RST | Hello Any one knows which image i can flash to exopc tablet | 11:06 |
| srikanth_RST | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.1.90/1.1.99.2.20110412.6/images/ | 11:06 |
| Myrtti | pinetrail | 11:06 |
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| lcuk | srikanth_RST, there is a nice documentation page also leading you to image http://meego.com/downloads/releases/1.2/meego-tablet-developer-preview cc jukkaeklund, thanks \o | 11:09 |
| timoph | lcuk: no. nothing that fancy. just plain old files :) | 11:10 |
| * dm8tbr wonders if it will fail in colourful ways if I change the repos and zyp up | 11:10 | |
| jukkaeklund | srikanth_RST, yeah I'm just getting that | 11:10 |
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| * timoph goes out to vote and buy somekind of stand and a kb for exopc hacking | 11:14 | |
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| srikanth_RST | lcuk: jukkaeklund: thanks. I will try now | 11:15 |
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| mihero | is there some official stand, seems to be some connector at the bottom | 11:17 |
| jukkaeklund | mihero, I think so | 11:17 |
| srikanth_RST | Myrtti:Thanks | 11:17 |
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| mihero | hmm, seems that same stands work for wetab and some other tablets | 11:21 |
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| Myrtti | so as I was saying, you don't need a keyboard to flash the ExoPC | 11:22 |
| Myrtti | the boot selection can be done with the hotspot on the left top corner | 11:22 |
| Myrtti | tap once to move the selection to "install only" and hold down (for a long time) to select | 11:23 |
| dm8tbr | is that swype thing only in the preinstalled image or also in the newer ones? | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | it's not in the daily builds | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | if you go to the intel site and download an image from there, it's there | 11:25 |
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| dm8tbr | ah, ok | 11:25 |
| dm8tbr | just curious, not that I really care thaaat much | 11:25 |
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| lcuk | Myrtti, the hotspot in the corner, is that just light sensor? | 11:25 |
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| Myrtti | no | 11:25 |
| Myrtti | it's actually a button of sorts | 11:26 |
| Myrtti | I suppose | 11:26 |
| Myrtti | I don't know the technique used, so I suppose it could be a light sensor | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | proximity sensor, maybe | 11:26 |
| dm8tbr | would suck in the dark ;) | 11:26 |
| Myrtti | but it is a valid button and it can be used to interact in the tablet ui too | 11:27 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, yes that is the technical description I was thinking of | 11:27 |
| jukkaeklund | its quite nice solution | 11:27 |
| Myrtti | I found it by accident | 11:27 |
| Myrtti | quite nifty | 11:27 |
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| jukkaeklund | if its polling though wondering about power consumption | 11:27 |
| jukkaeklund | we should try to use that in N900 also, unless its draining battery | 11:27 |
| Myrtti | if a proximity sensor doesn't poll, it's quite useless ;-) | 11:28 |
| Myrtti | (in the sense I understand polling) | 11:28 |
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| lcuk | jukkaeklund, I have seen apps using proximity on n900 | 11:30 |
| jukkaeklund | in meego? | 11:30 |
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| * jukkaeklund wondering then tablet test reports are coming to http://qa-reports.meego.com/ | 11:31 | |
| Stskeeps | good question | 11:31 |
| jukkaeklund | and next question :) | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | I was just going to file bug reports | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | the facebook connection thingie is broken for me | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | so badly it recovers only with a reboot :-x | 11:32 |
| Stskeeps | think there was a problem with api keys or somethingg | 11:32 |
| Stskeeps | at some point | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | my only problem is that I can't tap the "Done" button | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | and because of that the configuration dialog is stuck | 11:33 |
| Myrtti | and because the same thingamabob is used to configure everything else, I can't configure for example wifi or panels or anything else once I've tried connecting facebook | 11:33 |
| jukkaeklund | yes, please write them bugs now :) | 11:33 |
| jukkaeklund | looks like installation is stuck for me | 11:35 |
| Myrtti | (and it seems that I did actually, really really flash the daily build) | 11:35 |
| Myrtti | atleast the image is dated yesterday instead of 12th | 11:36 |
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| jukkaeklund | ooh, bleading edge | 11:38 |
| sandst1 | jukkaeklund: how's the latest tablet image doing? | 11:38 |
| sandst1 | wondering whether to go for that or try out the netbook img | 11:38 |
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| jukkaeklund | sandst1, installation got stuck for me so don | 11:39 |
| jukkaeklund | 't know | 11:39 |
| sandst1 | ok | 11:39 |
| jukkaeklund | or handset :) | 11:39 |
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| sandst1 | yea :) | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | DE could prolly run on there without big issue | 11:40 |
| jukkaeklund | yep, that came to mind | 11:41 |
| jukkaeklund | want to make make a image? :) | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | not using my n900 ;) maybe tomorrow | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | was sitting and hacking until 4am last night, was good to get that out of my system.. :P | 11:43 |
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| jukkaeklund | Stskeeps, good what did you hack? | 11:45 |
| Stskeeps | compiling qt lighthouse and playing with some ideas | 11:46 |
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| jukkaeklund | oh | 11:47 |
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| * sandst1 just booted the netbook img. working except the mouse cursor seems to be attached to the accelerometer :D | 11:48 | |
| jukkaeklund | ! | 11:48 |
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| Stskeeps | sandst1: ah, yeah, xorg did that on n900 at some point | 11:49 |
| Stskeeps | that was fun | 11:49 |
| sandst1 | yeap :) | 11:50 |
| sandst1 | also the vkb is disabled. i wonder if there's a touch-customized version available | 11:50 |
| jukkaeklund | that would be swype but its only in Intels images | 11:51 |
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| jukkaeklund | got the installation through now, it seems choosing Finnish was not a good idea | 11:51 |
| sandst1 | jukkaeklund: thanks for the tip | 11:52 |
| Myrtti | language, locale and vkb should be detached from each other, yeah | 11:53 |
| Myrtti | I'd want UK British language, Finnish locale and vkb | 11:53 |
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| timoph | yep. that's how I'd like to set it up | 11:54 |
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| jukkaeklund | go fix it then :) | 11:57 |
| timoph | :) | 11:57 |
| timoph | just arriving at verkkokauppa to buy some hacking equipment :) | 11:58 |
| jukkaeklund | mouse and keyboard? | 11:59 |
| lcuk | timoph, they sell awesome helicopters! | 11:59 |
| * lcuk still has little one here | 11:59 | |
| * lcuk will trade upto a bigger one at some point. | 11:59 | |
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| timoph | some small kb and somekind of stand | 11:59 |
| Myrtti | the note in the package said "includes a stand" | 12:00 |
| Myrtti | btw | 12:00 |
| timoph | yep | 12:00 |
| Myrtti | (it didn't) | 12:00 |
| lcuk | I made a stand for n810 and n900 :) | 12:00 |
| timoph | double checked the packaging for it | 12:01 |
| Myrtti | I'll probably make something out of sugru | 12:01 |
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| Myrtti | since I don't have shrinktube or anything | 12:01 |
| lcuk | maybe the box itself is a stand | 12:01 |
| * lcuk likes the ideapad | 12:02 | |
| lcuk | it is self standing | 12:02 |
| lcuk | and pre includes a keyboard ! | 12:02 |
| Myrtti | you're just jealous | 12:03 |
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| sandst1 | this seems to be the very latest image: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/latest/images/meego-tablet-ia32-pinetrail/meego-tablet-ia32-pinetrail-1.1.99.2.20110412.6.img | 12:04 |
| Myrtti | sandst1: it's not ;-) there's daily builds too :-P | 12:04 |
| Myrtti | (but I suspect they're not as stable) | 12:04 |
| jukkaeklund | trunk should be stable | 12:04 |
| jukkaeklund | so http://download.meego.com/trunk-daily/builds/trunk/1.1.99.3.20110415.3/images/meego-tablet-ia32-pinetrail/ | 12:05 |
| dm8tbr | it also claims the device is passively cooled | 12:05 |
| jukkaeklund | heh | 12:05 |
| dm8tbr | err, scroll fail | 12:05 |
| jukkaeklund | tablet that has a cooling fan | 12:05 |
| jukkaeklund | oops pressing power to "standby" is not a good idea | 12:06 |
| sandst1 | ah, thanks | 12:06 |
| Myrtti | aw man | 12:07 |
| Myrtti | http://kevindark.co.uk/Images/ExoStuff/TheDock.jpg the dock would be nice | 12:07 |
| jukkaeklund | anybody tried to update on the fly with zypper? | 12:07 |
| jukkaeklund | (and how to do that?) | 12:08 |
| sandst1 | jukkaeklund: zypper ref && zypper up. worked at least on the netbook | 12:08 |
| jukkaeklund | bit hard without vkb or keyboard though :| | 12:09 |
| sandst1 | the IP is shown in the connectivity settings & there's an ssh daemon running | 12:09 |
| jukkaeklund | ah of course | 12:10 |
| dm8tbr | oooh there is ssh? nice | 12:10 |
| * dm8tbr wanted to install thinking there isn't and that failed because the repo is gone | 12:10 | |
| dm8tbr | jukkaeklund: I thought of that too. didn't get around to trying yet | 12:11 |
| jukkaeklund | hmm, doesn't want to connect with ssh though | 12:11 |
| Myrtti | you have failed, young padawan | 12:12 |
| jukkaeklund | yes I have | 12:12 |
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| Myrtti | works for me | 12:12 |
| jukkaeklund | and thanks for the young part | 12:12 |
| jukkaeklund | prkl, if I have to start fiddling with WLAN setup for that | 12:13 |
| jukkaeklund | does it do over USB? | 12:13 |
| Myrtti | All repositories have been refreshed. | 12:14 |
| Myrtti | Nothing to do. | 12:15 |
| Myrtti | :-| | 12:15 |
| sandst1 | Myrtti: so you're already using the latest image?:) | 12:15 |
| Myrtti | yup | 12:16 |
| Myrtti | flashed it last night | 12:16 |
| sandst1 | ok. so there really is nothing to update | 12:16 |
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| dm8tbr | did anyone get the alarm working? I can't set the time | 12:24 |
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| jukkaeklund | exopc stand, http://kevindark.co.uk/Products/Stands_For_EXOPC_VIBE.aspx | 12:27 |
| poutsi | dm8tbr, I think that was mentioned in the gotchas list | 12:28 |
| poutsi | the 2-sheet thingy in the plastic bag with the stick | 12:28 |
| dm8tbr | yeah, glanced over the list but didn't memorize that item | 12:29 |
| dm8tbr | right bottom of the list there it is | 12:29 |
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| Myrtti | I almost want to get the docking station | 12:33 |
| poutsi | heh, 393 packages to update, I wonder if it'll take off under the power of the fan | 12:34 |
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| Myrtti | the appup client is somewhat horrible :-D | 12:51 |
| Myrtti | I can see why it's not public yet :-D | 12:52 |
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| jukkaeklund | has to be public if you got it, where is that? | 12:55 |
| Myrtti | http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/meego-sdk-suite | 12:58 |
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| Myrtti | well it is public but in beta | 12:58 |
| Myrtti | oh, not even that | 12:58 |
| Myrtti | alpha | 12:58 |
| lcuk | does anybody know whether there are any git statistics tools, to indicate contribution breakdown on a repository? | 12:58 |
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| poutsi | define contribution breakdown? | 13:00 |
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| lcuk | poutsi, at most basic level, lines of code per person | 13:01 |
| lcuk | but it is not quite so simple with binary elements | 13:01 |
| lcuk | (the gitstats website is not working) | 13:02 |
| poutsi | yeah, just ran into that snag myself | 13:04 |
| poutsi | there are a few others mentioned here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1828874/generating-statistics-from-git-repository | 13:04 |
| jukkaeklund | Myrtti, thanks its dated to middle of Feb so will not bother.. | 13:05 |
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| lcuk | poutsi, thanks was on there myself too | 13:06 |
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| lbt | DawnFoster: ping | 13:07 |
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| lcuk | \o lbt | 13:09 |
| lbt | hey lcuk ... glad you're back in the real world | 13:10 |
| lcuk | hah, this is the real world: http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/59182570713255936 but I am somewhat pleased to have internet back now :) | 13:11 |
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| lbt | *g* | 13:12 |
| * lcuk has not done somersaults for half a lifetime! | 13:13 | |
| lcuk | I had forgotten how to do them at first | 13:13 |
| * lbt smells a tutorial for SF2011 | 13:13 | |
| lcuk | haha! | 13:13 |
| * jukkaeklund wonders what kind of person forgets his WLAN box password | 13:14 | |
| lcuk | last time I stood up infront of people and tried to show them what was needed I got laughed at in school | 13:14 |
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| lcuk | jukkaeklund, try 12345 | 13:15 |
| jukkaeklund | nope | 13:16 |
| poutsi | note to self: change combination on luggage | 13:16 |
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| jukkaeklund | :) | 13:16 |
| timoph | :D | 13:16 |
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| alterego | lcuk: where did your internet go? | 13:21 |
| lcuk | alterego, see the photo | 13:21 |
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| lcuk | no internet on holiday :) | 13:21 |
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| lcuk | spending time with family | 13:22 |
| lcuk | we even managed to get luke to put his phone down for a couple of days | 13:22 |
| poutsi | eh, zypper's a bit too quiet for my tastes | 13:22 |
| poutsi | thought my upgrade hung when in fact it was just rebuilding locales | 13:22 |
| alterego | lcuk: yeah, I knew you were on Holida, I was trying to tell everyone that you'd gone on holiday because a few people were getting worried :P | 13:26 |
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| lcuk | yeah I heard, the pile of emails and messages when I got back to civilisation helped clarify though lol | 13:27 |
| alterego | Hahah | 13:28 |
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| lcuk | alterego, had more email whilst I was gone for a break than proceeding few months! | 13:31 |
| * lcuk still has not caught up with everything | 13:31 | |
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| alterego | Well, sounds like you've been having a good time though :) | 13:37 |
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| lcuk | alterego, straining many different muscles :) | 13:42 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 13:43 |
| lcuk | morning Jaffa \o | 13:44 |
| Jaffa | Anything interesting come out of #meegofi or anything else this week for MWKN? | 13:44 |
| Jaffa | Light on contributions so far, but maybe it's a quiet week... | 13:44 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, once you publish todays edition later, ping me I need to catch up and mwkn is generally designed for such a task \o | 13:46 |
| Myrtti | mmmmmm tea | 13:46 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, not exactly news, but n900 on a beach takes wonderful photos! :P | 13:47 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Currently it's got two stories in and so not much catch-up capability will be provided :-/ | 13:47 |
| lcuk | and the sand does come out of the slider eventually | 13:47 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: heh | 13:47 |
| Jaffa | My camera takes horrid photos now cos of all the gunk caught around the lens | 13:47 |
| Myrtti | Jaffa: apart from Reuters telling that LG will publish a mobile phone and LG later correcting them? | 13:47 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, ? what gunk | 13:48 |
| Jaffa | Myrtti: LG sayigng they're *not* releasing a [MeeGo] phone? | 13:48 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Pocket detritus, e.g. tissue dust. | 13:49 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, the N900 camera does take excellent shots http://twitter.com/lcuk/status/59182570713255936 | 13:49 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Indeed | 13:49 |
| lcuk | ahhh that pic was taken from tracys n900 | 13:49 |
| lcuk | that gets thrown into her purse | 13:49 |
| lcuk | I worry everytime, but the screen protector is doing its job | 13:49 |
| Myrtti | Jaffa: http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/15/lg-steps-in-to-develop-handset-version-of-meego-sorry-nokia/ | 13:50 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Cool | 13:50 |
| Jaffa | Myrtti: ta | 13:50 |
| Myrtti | (source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/15/us-mobile-software-meego-idUSTRE73E2CT20110415) | 13:51 |
| Myrtti | the original content of the article was a bit different | 13:52 |
| Myrtti | I did read it a bit confused and wondered where exactly did Valtteri say LG were going to publish a phone | 13:52 |
| Jaffa | Engadget in inaccuracy shock ) | 13:53 |
| Jaffa | Thanks for the link, though | 13:53 |
| Myrtti | I'd say Reuters editors | 13:53 |
| Myrtti | Reuters did the mistake, and it spread like a wild fire | 13:53 |
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| Jaffa | Myrtti: Ah, fair enough | 13:54 |
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| Jaffa | Err, is news.meego.com and planet.meego.com supposed to actually, y'know, work? | 13:58 |
| Jaffa | The links on khyber's two posts are just loopback links | 13:58 |
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| Venemo | Jaffa, this reminds me of the funny situation after Nokia's annoucement. then, mxr.meego.com pointed to microsoft.com for about a week. | 14:07 |
| Stskeeps | cos of some idiot showing that volunteer hosting cant be trusted. | 14:08 |
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| Jaffa | Venemo: Annoying | 14:09 |
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| myrtti | aw, ran out of cheese | 14:11 |
| * lbt quietly notes that the Intel SDK T-shirts say www.meego.org .... | 14:14 | |
| Stskeeps | lbt: that we should note to dawn.. | 14:16 |
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| lbt | yep... | 14:17 |
| lbt | shows that they're thinking correctly about meego :) | 14:18 |
| lbt | did you catch the train? | 14:18 |
| timoph | I'm getting more and more annoyed that the ux doesn't offer any sensible way to close apps. "freeing screen space" is a poor excuse for this design flaw. | 14:20 |
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| jarkko^_ | timoph: that question has been my mind.. how do you close the apps? :) | 14:21 |
| jarkko^_ | for now i have rebooted the device when i wanted switch to another app | 14:21 |
| timoph | open task switcher, press and hold, select close :) | 14:21 |
| timoph | or kill them from xterm :p | 14:22 |
| poutsi | did the task switcher come from the corner hotspot? | 14:22 |
| jarkko^_ | how task switcher is opened? :) | 14:22 |
| timoph | yep. the corner hotspot | 14:22 |
| jarkko^_ | aha.. | 14:22 |
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| timoph | or if you're using kb: context menu key or holding down the corporate key | 14:23 |
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| * lcuk likes the descriptive key name | 14:24 | |
| jarkko^_ | hmm maybe i'll put handset ux pinetrail version for now :) | 14:25 |
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| * Jaffa suspects lack of close icons is an increasing UI paradigm for mobile, and so, MeeGo | 14:26 | |
| myrtti | ololololo video ♥ | 14:26 |
| timoph | yep | 14:26 |
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| poutsi | no problem there if there's a smart task killer and apps are designed accordingly | 14:27 |
| myrtti | Pasila from YLE areena on the exopc ♥ | 14:27 |
| myrtti | no need for a laptop in bed anymore | 14:27 |
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| Jaffa | poutsi: You mean apps auto-close? | 14:27 |
| jarkko^_ | in short terms it is no problem how apps are closed if it is immediately intuitive to the user :) | 14:27 |
| poutsi | whaddya know, it booted even after the upgrade stopped halfway | 14:27 |
| poutsi | Jaffa, yeah | 14:27 |
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| ali12341 | "no close button" has been around (and universally disliked) since windows mobile | 14:28 |
| poutsi | jarkko^_, I'd say it's no problem if there's no incentive in closing apps yourself | 14:28 |
| poutsi | ali12341, not universally :) | 14:28 |
| Jaffa | poutsi: None of the official MeeGo APIs or guides describe how to build such apps, and Maemo experience suggests most apps won't be designed accordingly if there's more than one way to do it. | 14:28 |
| poutsi | Jaffa, and that's a huge issue, yeah | 14:28 |
| Jaffa | poutsi: Perhaps iOS' limited multitasking and guided "multitasking" is a better way of approaching it. Certainly none of the "core" Linux libraries and devices have made it easy. | 14:29 |
| jarkko^_ | poutsi: yeah if there's some clear way to get back to apps menu :) | 14:29 |
| jarkko^_ | i couldn't figure even that out | 14:29 |
| jarkko^_ | so when i started app i was stuck with it until i rebooted :) | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | And doing "update when not visible" seems harder in Qt (and should be done for free with QML) than it was in a lower-level Hildon/Gtk app. | 14:30 |
| jarkko^_ | wasn't very fun user experience | 14:30 |
| poutsi | argh, why doesn't resolv.conf get updated correctly | 14:31 |
| jarkko^_ | has anyone already tried handset ux with exopc | 14:31 |
| lcuk | jarkko^_, should be same as on the ideapad, afaik it is the same pinetrail image | 14:32 |
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| jarkko^_ | yeah, exopc is also pinetrail | 14:33 |
| jarkko^_ | should work | 14:33 |
| myrtti | I'm feeling slightly stupid, but where exactly can I get more applications to the tablet? AppUp clearly isn't a solution at the moment | 14:33 |
| RST38h | All moo. | 14:33 |
| RST38h | myrtti: garage.maemo.org? =) | 14:33 |
| myrtti | really? | 14:33 |
| RST38h | Well behaved Qt apps should recompile and work, shouldn't they? | 14:34 |
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| sandst1 | myrtti: http://apps-beta.meego.com/basecategories/meego/current/netbook/ | 14:37 |
| sandst1 | should run in the tablet fine | 14:37 |
| sandst1 | you'll need access to the community OBS (build.pub.meego.com). send your meego.com username to lbt or X-Fade and they'll enable it | 14:39 |
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| myrtti | the website is so abysmally bad I think I'll just roll over and die slowly | 14:41 |
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| lbt | myrtti: which ? | 14:41 |
| myrtti | apps-beta | 14:41 |
| myrtti | "string(60) "/applications/{$os}/{$string:version}/{$ux}/{$basecategory}/" Notice: Undefined offset: 1 in /var/cas_latest/midgardmvc_core/route.php on line 221" | 14:41 |
| myrtti | "thanks a lot" | 14:42 |
| lbt | ah, they're probably working on it | 14:42 |
| myrtti | I should hope so... :-) | 14:42 |
| lbt | it's the 'live dev' | 14:42 |
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| myrtti | can't even download anything | 14:44 |
| myrtti | so I'll just have another cuppa and watch telly | 14:44 |
| poutsi | zypper upgrade almost finished | 14:44 |
| lbt | catch X-Fade and he'll rope you in as a beta tester | 14:44 |
| poutsi | almost squirted coffee out my nose when I saw a package name starting with "prolog" | 14:45 |
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| poutsi | probably not prolog the PL though | 14:45 |
| RST38h | well, as there is no official usable version of Meego for tablets, expecting to have apps for it is kinda too optimistic | 14:45 |
| poutsi | no wait I was thinking of cobol :p | 14:46 |
| poutsi | silly | 14:46 |
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| myrtti | RST38h: to be honest, I had no expectations at all. I just literally couldn't find any place to get any apps for any platform from the top of my head | 14:51 |
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| Myrtti | I suppose I should've stayed out of the AppUp lab altogether and allow someone who can actually develop those apps to have the device | 14:55 |
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| jeaha | hallo hat das nokia n900 omap 3 oder omap 4 | 14:55 |
| jeaha | hi, the nokia n900 omap 3 or 4 omap | 14:56 |
| sandst1 | poutsi: actually the resource policy framework's rules Are written in Prolog :) | 14:56 |
| alterego | OMAP 3 | 14:56 |
| alterego | Could you not google that? | 14:56 |
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| jeaha | thx | 14:56 |
| jeaha | i have gegoogelt | 14:56 |
| Termana | alterego, pfft do you know how much harder it is to google something than to join an irc server and ask it in an irrelevant channel? | 14:57 |
| sandst1 | poutsi: https://meego.gitorious.org/maemo-multimedia/prolog | 14:57 |
| sandst1 | poutsi: http://conference2010.meego.com/session/policy-framework-flexible-way-orchestrate-multiple-functionalities-meego-devices | 14:57 |
| Termana | /say /sarcasm | 14:57 |
| Termana | darn it | 14:57 |
| Termana | everyone gets the drift anyway | 14:58 |
| jonni | Myrtti: you can always make it dualboot to win7 if you want to have some apps to run on :) | 14:59 |
| Myrtti | jonni: if I'll go the dualboot way, I'll take something I know how to use - like ubuntu. | 14:59 |
| Myrtti | ah nevermind I'm just getting depressed | 15:01 |
| Myrtti | cheers, have a nice day | 15:01 |
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| RST38h | Myrtti: there is always maemo! :) | 15:05 |
| * Jaffa was thinking earlier today about vendors giving out devices. It's cool and funky to have a new toy, but if it doesn't do *anything* usefully or have a market ready and waiting for apps, will anyone develop for it. Nokia's free E7 was like this (it didn't do anything beyond my N900, so why'd I develop for it), the IdeaPads with MeeGo Netbook may be similar. | 15:05 | |
| RST38h | Ok,not always, but for a while. Hopefully, Meego will reach the sameor better state by the year's end | 15:05 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Well, I use E7 for development. | 15:06 |
| Jaffa | Whereas I develop for the N900 cos it already meets a load of my use cases, so enriching it benefits me. | 15:06 |
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| RST38h | It is kinda enriching too, in monetary sense. | 15:06 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Verifying the cross-platformness of my Qt apps, sure. | 15:06 |
| RST38h | Nah, not even using Qt | 15:06 |
| RST38h | Avkon here. | 15:06 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Indeed, so the "ready made market" is met there. | 15:06 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Masochist ;-) | 15:07 |
| RST38h | Realist: got shitload of code using it | 15:07 |
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| lbt | Jaffa: actually what happened at the summit was Intel worked some more on bootstrapping the MeeGo Apps story | 15:56 |
| lbt | They do have some strong messages - and they are offering early app-developers initiatives (including $50k or flying a MiG) | 15:57 |
| lbt | the SDK still needs a little work but it's supposed to be useful | 15:58 |
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| * Stskeeps was rather impressed with general appup story | 15:58 | |
| lbt | I'm going to see about installing it tonight | 15:58 |
| lbt | yep .. me too | 15:58 |
| lbt | very opensource friendly | 15:58 |
| timoph | yep | 15:58 |
| Stskeeps | and less of a bullshit store | 15:58 |
| lbt | license-wise, not surrounds ;) | 15:58 |
| lbt | Bernie and I had a chat - they want to support component dependencies ... but it's hard | 15:59 |
| lbt | they're going to *investigate* funding a community-OBS plugin to go from MeeGo:Apps -> AppUp | 16:00 |
| timoph | nice | 16:00 |
| lbt | you will be able to ask for $ for OSS apps | 16:00 |
| lbt | (sounds like they may want to use OBS internally later to facilitate multi-targets for devs - so the plugin would come from there too) | 16:01 |
| lbt | They have multi-lingual support (provided you count 0, 1, multi) | 16:01 |
| timoph | so I could have the apps for free in cobs and ask money for the same apps through appup :P | 16:01 |
| lbt | yes | 16:01 |
| lbt | and if you get Dixons users, they pay a small fee, community users get it for nothing | 16:02 |
| timoph | interesting | 16:02 |
| lbt | yes | 16:02 |
| lbt | We should focus on GPL being "open source", and "libre".... not free | 16:03 |
| timoph | true | 16:03 |
| lbt | (most dixons users prolly don't speak french ;) ) | 16:03 |
| lbt | french devs lose out | 16:03 |
| lbt | win win | 16:03 |
| timoph | :D | 16:03 |
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| ali12341 | if you can put OSS apps in a appstore, what's to stop people constantly undercutting each other by $0.01? | 16:07 |
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| dm8tbr | ali12341: trademark the name of your project, sue them into oblivion. *duck* *run* ouch! | 16:10 |
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| lbt | ali12341: excellent question - but I suggest the AppUp store should respect copyright | 16:11 |
| lbt | so if the copyright holder asks the store to prevent a user from distributing via the AppUp store.. that's OK | 16:12 |
| lbt | "debate" | 16:12 |
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| ali12341 | copyright holder... on GPL software? | 16:12 |
| lbt | yes | 16:12 |
| lbt | License != copyright | 16:12 |
| ali12341 | if you said trademark i could agree with you | 16:12 |
| lbt | not at all | 16:13 |
| lbt | I hold the copyright on my app | 16:13 |
| ali12341 | yeah | 16:13 |
| lbt | I choose to distribute using GPL | 16:13 |
| lbt | you may distribute it too | 16:13 |
| lbt | you may sell it | 16:13 |
| ali12341 | and if you impose extra conditions like "you can't put my app on appup" then you've just violated the GPL | 16:13 |
| lbt | you may not oblige the AppUp store to sell it | 16:13 |
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| lbt | the condition is not on the distribution | 16:13 |
| ali12341 | ah fair point | 16:13 |
| lbt | it is a policy of the store | 16:13 |
| lbt | designed to respect the copyright holders wishes | 16:14 |
| lbt | I actually only just realised that | 16:14 |
| ali12341 | what if the copyright holder isn't the first person to package the app for appup? | 16:14 |
| lbt | but I think it's the answer to "how do I stop others selling shopper on appup" | 16:14 |
| lbt | not a problem | 16:14 |
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| lbt | the policy is that if the holder objects, the holder is listened to | 16:15 |
| ali12341 | if i put in the hard work to port your app to meego, then put it in appup, you can come along and say "i'm the copyright holder" and take my work and sell it yourself? | 16:15 |
| lbt | don't try selling the kernel ;) | 16:15 |
| lbt | yes | 16:15 |
| ali12341 | well that's pretty lame | 16:15 |
| lbt | so talk to me first if yo plan to monetise you greedy bastard ;) | 16:15 |
| lbt | or I'll just get it all | 16:15 |
| ali12341 | well i'd just say "hang on, i'm the copyright holder on the parts that make it work on meego" | 16:16 |
| ali12341 | then we both lose | 16:16 |
| lbt | feel free | 16:16 |
| lbt | lose lose | 16:16 |
| ali12341 | but personally i would prefer a system where anyone is free to undercut anyone else at any time | 16:16 |
| lbt | ain't cooperation great ? | 16:16 |
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| lbt | ali12341: pointless | 16:16 |
| berndhs | seems like the reasonable thing would be to talk to the copyright holder first | 16:16 |
| ali12341 | not pointless, in fact, it ensures that users get the best possible value | 16:16 |
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| lbt | berndhs: indeed | 16:16 |
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| lbt | value? | 16:16 |
| ali12341 | yes value for money when purchasing apps | 16:17 |
| lbt | again, not at all | 16:17 |
| lbt | starving your pet poet means no more poems | 16:17 |
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| lbt | and where does the GPL mention value? | 16:18 |
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| ali12341 | it doesn't, this has nothing to do with the GPL | 16:18 |
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| lbt | it does | 16:18 |
| ali12341 | although if you asked RMS about this he'd agree with me | 16:18 |
| lbt | you only have rights to my SW via the GPLE | 16:18 |
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| lbt | ask - you're wrong | 16:18 |
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| lbt | he has frequently supported cash for code | 16:19 |
| ali12341 | lbt: every time RMS does a lecture someone asks him this exact question and the answer is always the same | 16:19 |
| lbt | however the user (from Dixons) should know they can recompile | 16:19 |
| lbt | rofl | 16:19 |
| ali12341 | "how do i stop someone else from selling my code?" | 16:19 |
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| lbt | I'm not stopping you | 16:19 |
| lbt | you can go down to a market and sell it | 16:19 |
| lbt | I'm suggesting the AppUp store has a model to encourage OSS monetisation | 16:20 |
| ali12341 | technically you're not stopping me however you are basically entering into an agreement with appup to limit the effectiveness of the GPL to achieve it's goal | 16:20 |
| lbt | yes | 16:20 |
| lbt | so use the post office | 16:20 |
| lbt | and post my app to your users | 16:20 |
| lbt | and they can send you money | 16:20 |
| lbt | and you have to manage that channel | 16:20 |
| lbt | and pay the costs | 16:20 |
| lbt | me and the appup store - we *have* an agreement | 16:21 |
| ali12341 | well there's one small problem with that, which is, as we all know, meego devices will be "tivoized" such that you can only install apps from an approved source | 16:21 |
| lbt | they get 30% | 16:21 |
| lbt | yep | 16:21 |
| lbt | he'll hate that | 16:21 |
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| ali12341 | which means that there will only be once source for a particular GPL app, and the developer can charge whatever they want for it - which is the exact situation the GPL is designed to *prevent* from occuring | 16:21 |
| lbt | not at all | 16:22 |
| lbt | the app will be on community OBS | 16:22 |
| lbt | it's on gitorious | 16:22 |
| ali12341 | and it's not installable | 16:22 |
| lbt | it comes from appup if you ask for the source | 16:22 |
| lbt | nothing in the GPL obliges me to share | 16:22 |
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| lbt | hence the Affero license | 16:22 |
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| lbt | which extends sharing to situations where code is not actually distributed | 16:23 |
| lbt | just because my app is gpl doesn't give you a right to have a copy | 16:23 |
| ali12341 | i would say that all the v3 variant would have a problem with this | 16:23 |
| lbt | why? show me the clause obliging me to give you my code | 16:23 |
| lbt | *if* I give you the binary (under GPL) I must give you the src | 16:24 |
| lbt | if I don't ... tough | 16:24 |
| ali12341 | if you sell me a copy of a GPLv3 app on a locked down device, don't you also have to supply me with any and all means to recompile said app and install it on said locked down device? | 16:24 |
| lbt | if I only choose to distribute via appup and you don't use appup ... tough | 16:24 |
| lbt | yep... community OBS | 16:24 |
| lbt | nb... install it.... not AFAIK | 16:25 |
| lbt | also, not "run" it either | 16:25 |
| ali12341 | it's required if you sell a device like tivo where the firmware is signed, to include the signing key such that a user compiled firmware can be installed on the actual hardware you bought | 16:26 |
| lbt | GPL code is allowed to access a NW service and refuse to run if you don't have an account | 16:26 |
| lbt | I can take your account away if you don't pay | 16:26 |
| ali12341 | therefore i would argue the same applies to after market app purchases | 16:26 |
| lbt | they aren't signed | 16:26 |
| ali12341 | appup purchases are not signed? | 16:26 |
| lbt | not in a way to prevent installation | 16:27 |
| lbt | they run a NW service to obtain a UID | 16:27 |
| ali12341 | so devices which use appup will not need to be jailbroken? | 16:27 |
| lbt | and thereafter use that to restrict runtime | 16:27 |
| lbt | you can then take my GPL code and remove that | 16:27 |
| lbt | and then share it | 16:27 |
| ali12341 | and it will run on the real hardware? | 16:27 |
| lbt | yep | 16:28 |
| ali12341 | ok | 16:28 |
| lbt | but you can't sell it via appup | 16:28 |
| ali12341 | that's rather different then | 16:28 |
| lbt | 'cos appup requires you have that | 16:28 |
| ali12341 | see, i was working on the assumption that all appup software would be signed, and unsigned code would simply not run | 16:28 |
| lbt | not AIUI | 16:28 |
| ali12341 | ie the only way to get software is to buy from appup | 16:28 |
| lbt | but the argument was surely about you selling my code on appup | 16:28 |
| lbt | even if you get my code from gitorious I think you should not be allowed to do that | 16:29 |
| lbt | unless I agree | 16:29 |
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| berndhs | if the original artist is easily identifiable, what' stopping you from asking him/her ? | 16:30 |
| lbt | 100% agree | 16:30 |
| ali12341 | fair enough, unless appup is the only way to obtain the software, then it's wrong | 16:30 |
| lbt | on some devices... it will be | 16:30 |
| lbt | mmm | 16:31 |
| lbt | I should say... on some devices the user will not have any other clear way to install SW | 16:31 |
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| lbt | and MeeGo security policy may not permit the user to install SW | 16:31 |
| ali12341 | RMS is very clear that the GPL is designed to prevent a single developer from sitting on their software and not improving it, and also preventing anyone else from improving it | 16:32 |
| lbt | that's not part of this debate | 16:32 |
| lbt | and incedentally nor is GPL3 | 16:32 |
| ali12341 | oh but it is | 16:32 |
| lbt | not unless my SW is GPL3 | 16:32 |
| ali12341 | because by going to appstore route you;ve found yet another loophole | 16:32 |
| Venemo | ali12341, wut? what's wrong with the GPL? | 16:32 |
| lbt | GPL3 | 16:32 |
| lbt | vs 2 | 16:32 |
| ali12341 | Venemo: read the scrollback | 16:33 |
| Venemo | [15:32] <ali12341> RMS is very clear that the GPL is designed to prevent a single developer from sitting on their software and not improving it, and also preventing anyone else from improving it | 16:33 |
| Venemo | why would it prevent you from improving ti? | 16:33 |
| Venemo | I don't get it? | 16:33 |
| ali12341 | Venemo: you;re reading it wrong | 16:33 |
| w00t_ | the key word is "from sitting on it and not improving it" | 16:33 |
| lbt | and it doesn't | 16:33 |
| ali12341 | Venemo: the GPL is designed to stop the developer from preventing others from improving the software | 16:33 |
| w00t_ | someone else can pick it up and do what they want with it | 16:33 |
| ali12341 | w00t_: yes exactly. except that they can't sell it on appup at least under the theoretical system we were discussing | 16:34 |
| lbt | however, my proposal is that AppUp should give copyright holders priority for distributing OSS code via AppUp | 16:34 |
| alterego | Is there something wrong with community obs? | 16:34 |
| lbt | and if the holder doesn't accept your changes | 16:34 |
| lbt | alterego: nope | 16:34 |
| alterego | I'm getting basic auto failures. | 16:35 |
| lbt | oh | 16:35 |
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| lbt | sry | 16:35 |
| w00t_ | lol | 16:35 |
| lbt | maybe | 16:35 |
| Venemo | yeah, that's right | 16:35 |
| alterego | s/auto/auth/ | 16:35 |
| Venemo | mhm | 16:35 |
| berndhs | i'm getting basic auth failures on pub.OBS too | 16:35 |
| berndhs | I dont think its personal | 16:35 |
| alterego | Is there a way to perform an osc chroot without having it talk to the obs? :) | 16:35 |
| alterego | Ah, -o | 16:35 |
| berndhs | i can't log in to build.pub.meego.com either | 16:36 |
| lbt | looking | 16:36 |
| lbt | hold the debate ;) | 16:37 |
| alterego | :) | 16:37 |
| timoph | :) | 16:37 |
| * timoph presses pause | 16:37 | |
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| lbt | try now... | 16:40 |
| alterego | No luck | 16:40 |
| lbt | earthling? | 16:40 |
| alterego | Hrm? :) | 16:41 |
| alterego | My username? | 16:41 |
| lbt | yeah | 16:41 |
| alterego | tswindell | 16:41 |
| lbt | I see that username | 16:41 |
| berndhs | same thing for me "earthling" | 16:41 |
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| lbt | mmm | 16:41 |
| lbt | yep. see you | 16:41 |
| berndhs | my home: repo is there | 16:42 |
| timoph | hmmh. fails for me too | 16:42 |
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| lbt | good news... the list of obscommunity users isn't blank | 16:48 |
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| Stskeeps | the bad news? | 16:48 |
| lbt | the bad news is I haven't found the bad news | 16:48 |
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| lbt | more good news tlaukkanen can login | 16:59 |
| lbt | bad news ... only he can login | 16:59 |
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| berndhs | ah lets blame him | 17:01 |
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| alterego | Hahah | 17:05 |
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| lbt | any openldap people? the memberof seems to need regenerating | 17:19 |
| lcuk | ali12341, lbt - what if there was a license which had the same freedoms as the GPL, but with a section dealing with monetised app stores specifically and ensuring that contribution breakdown based on participation were "to best possible" split fairly. so the same app could have contributions towards debian even (which might be 1 or 2% of total code size) and when published on ovi or appup the proceedings were shared. it encourages people to l | 17:27 |
| lcuk | ook at diversifying where apps are made and ensures people get what a fair chance of income for participation | 17:27 |
| ali12341 | the GPL has never been about guaranteeing income from selling software | 17:28 |
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| lcuk | I know | 17:28 |
| lcuk | but it is also not dealing with paid distribution | 17:28 |
| berndhs | the GPL also isn't about garuanteeing software at no cost | 17:29 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: the GPL is designed to guarantee that the maximum cost of a piece of software is equal to the cost of your time spent extending an existing piece of GPL software to do what you want | 17:29 |
| ali12341 | as opposed to classic proprietary licences which are designed to guarantee the minimum cost is whatever the market will pay | 17:30 |
| berndhs | copying something and then selling it is not "extending" | 17:30 |
| ali12341 | correct, if you do not need to extend the software to do what you want, then the maximum cost will be 0 | 17:31 |
| ali12341 | if you decide to pay more that's your choice | 17:31 |
| berndhs | but this is about teh app store | 17:31 |
| berndhs | right ? | 17:31 |
| ali12341 | the method of distribution is irrelevant | 17:31 |
| lcuk | no berndhs - this is about any distribution method | 17:31 |
| lcuk | which may also be on the cover of a magazine | 17:32 |
| lcuk | or included with device | 17:32 |
| berndhs | I though it was a debate about one specific app store | 17:32 |
| lcuk | i hope not, otherwise we will have the same discussion next week | 17:32 |
| lcuk | and that will get boring | 17:32 |
| berndhs | where that app store would give preference to the original copyright holders | 17:32 |
| ali12341 | it's a debate about a method of circumventing the GPL by making an agreement with a third party | 17:33 |
| lcuk | technically it would be nice to offer a breakdown of participation along with each OSS app in a store | 17:33 |
| lcuk | and allow deriviates and stuff too | 17:33 |
| lcuk | but still using the various contributions | 17:33 |
| berndhs | my point is this : if Alice has some packages in pub.meego.com, and Bob decides to seell Alices meego pacakges | 17:34 |
| berndhs | then Bob should ask ALice first and propose a fair deal | 17:34 |
| lcuk | ali12341, why circumvent it? distribution on debian stable is the same | 17:34 |
| ali12341 | not according to the GPL | 17:34 |
| lcuk | just monetary value == 0 | 17:34 |
| ali12341 | according to the GPL alice has no right to prevent bob | 17:34 |
| lcuk | who wants to prevent it? | 17:35 |
| berndhs | yeah but Bob is an asshole in this scenario | 17:35 |
| ali12341 | alice must beat bob by innovating and producing improvements to the code faster than bob can rip them off | 17:35 |
| ali12341 | this is by design in order to ensure innovation keeps happening | 17:35 |
| berndhs | or Alice can hire poeple to beat up Bob :) | 17:35 |
| lcuk | yes, but if the app store already could look at the git history of the package in question | 17:35 |
| ali12341 | nobody disputes that bob is an asshole | 17:35 |
| berndhs | Bob isn't after innovation, Bob is after a quick buck | 17:35 |
| ali12341 | which is why bob will ultimately fail when everyone realises his products are crap | 17:35 |
| lcuk | and be able to happily perform the cake cutting | 17:35 |
| ali12341 | but all this is irrelevent | 17:36 |
| jonnor | no, "his product" might be amazing because of all the hard work the author does | 17:36 |
| ali12341 | it won't be as good as the author's version | 17:36 |
| jonnor | why not? | 17:36 |
| berndhs | it will be the same as the authors version | 17:36 |
| ali12341 | because the author will continue to innovate | 17:36 |
| jonnor | and Bob will update his package | 17:36 |
| jonnor | updating a package will take less time and effort than innovating | 17:37 |
| berndhs | Bob's innovation will be to offer it for $0.99 while Alice wants $1.01 | 17:37 |
| lcuk | well if the app store could see the history of both apps, alice and bob can both have their apps from same common core | 17:37 |
| lcuk | and everyone is happy | 17:37 |
| ali12341 | you'll get updates from alice before you get them from bob | 17:37 |
| lcuk | because the contributions and hence store payments will be balanced | 17:37 |
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| ali12341 | yes, the GPL does not guarantee you the right to dictate the price of your software | 17:37 |
| berndhs | why should the app store support copying and re-labellling ? | 17:38 |
| berndhs | if Bob wants to copy, he should say that this is what he is doing | 17:38 |
| lbt | lcuk: it is about AppUp, not distribution in general | 17:38 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: yes, trademarks are the correct way to handle that | 17:39 |
| lbt | berndhs: I think you and I are on the same wavelength here | 17:39 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: under the proposed solution "only the copyright holder can upload" it is possible for alice to block bob's software even if bob has made significant improvements to it | 17:39 |
| berndhs | why specifically trademark ? why not the store ? | 17:39 |
| lbt | ali12341: yes indeed it is possible for alice to block bob | 17:39 |
| lbt | makes sense | 17:39 |
| berndhs | maybe, but you are proposing that a simple copy can be uploaded | 17:40 |
| ali12341 | it makes sense if you want to have no competition | 17:40 |
| ali12341 | ie you are alice | 17:40 |
| lbt | and it's not "only the copyright holder" it is (maybe) "copyright holder can veto" | 17:40 |
| ali12341 | that's the same thing | 17:40 |
| lbt | ROFL | 17:40 |
| lbt | too right I want no competition | 17:40 |
| ali12341 | if you assume that copyright holders will always veto | 17:40 |
| lbt | what gives you the right to upload my code to AppUp ? | 17:41 |
| jonnor | which does not seem like a resonable assumption | 17:41 |
| ali12341 | lbt: the fact that you released it as GPL | 17:41 |
| berndhs | I say if you want to make money off other people's work, you should give them a share | 17:41 |
| lbt | no.. | 17:41 |
| timoph | once someone starts selling something that I've written and giving away free I'm changing to more restrictive license | 17:41 |
| lbt | that gives you the right to ask AppUp | 17:41 |
| ali12341 | lbt, berndhs: then you should not release your code as GPL | 17:41 |
| lbt | they don't have to do what you say | 17:41 |
| lbt | bullshit | 17:41 |
| lbt | you can take my code and sell it | 17:42 |
| ali12341 | lbt: likewise, appup do not have to do what alice says, ie alice should not get a veto | 17:42 |
| thiago | timoph: if you use something more restrictive than the GPL, you have to stop using other people's GPL code | 17:42 |
| lbt | but me and appup ... we agreed to partner on this | 17:42 |
| timoph | thiago: yep. I know | 17:42 |
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| lbt | and nothing gives you the right to force Bob to take your code to the streetcorner and hawk it | 17:42 |
| lbt | sure you can ask Bill | 17:43 |
| thiago | and it still doesn't stop the redistributing of the older code | 17:43 |
| thiago | besides, the GPL still forces the transferring of all rights | 17:43 |
| lbt | thiago: big backlogk | 17:43 |
| lbt | the point is for me and Appup to have an agreement | 17:43 |
| lbt | as copyright holder they will respect my work | 17:43 |
| berndhs | if you let Bob copy everyone's code and sell it for less, you ensure that the original authors stop working | 17:44 |
| lbt | and if someone turns up with my code | 17:44 |
| timoph | yeah. the ability just to package and sell GPL stuff in an app store just sounds wrong | 17:44 |
| lbt | and tries to distribute via appup they'll say "sure" | 17:44 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: that's the same argument that every anti-GPL troll makes at every lecture RMS ever gives | 17:44 |
| lbt | but if I then say "hey, please stop" | 17:44 |
| lbt | they will | 17:44 |
| lbt | ali12341: no, it's not | 17:44 |
| lbt | this is nothing to do with GPL | 17:44 |
| lbt | you can take my code and sell it | 17:44 |
| berndhs | I'm not anti-GPL I'm anti plagiarism | 17:44 |
| lbt | please do | 17:44 |
| timoph | maybe a better approach would be to submit the same app to the store and ask nothing for it | 17:45 |
| lbt | but ali12341.... nothing stops me from going to your business partner and saying "hey, you know I wrote that code. Fancy working with me? | 17:45 |
| ali12341 | lbt: correct | 17:45 |
| lbt | ali12341: and that's what I'm preemptively doing with appup | 17:45 |
| jonnor | timoph: why should the original copyright holder have to fight (marketing wise) against the one just exploiting the work? | 17:46 |
| ali12341 | lbt: no, what you are doing is using a third party agreement to prevent people from approaching your customers and offering the same service for less money | 17:46 |
| Ans5i | in the meego tablet image there is no webgl in the browser, is it coming at some point? | 17:46 |
| lcuk | why is it about exploiting? as long as credits get back to authors it should be possible to have 1000 variations of same open code on the store | 17:47 |
| ali12341 | lbt: so the appup thing is the exact opposite of the example you gave | 17:47 |
| jonnor | lcuk: I don't quite see what the benefit of that would be | 17:47 |
| lcuk | jonnor, how many fart apps are there on certain stores? | 17:47 |
| lcuk | supposing someone wrote the most awesome fart generator | 17:48 |
| timoph | well. not that I've thought about it more than 2 secs.. When I'm licensing my stuff with GPL, I'm also giving permission to sell it if someone really wants to pay for OSS | 17:48 |
| timoph | not/now | 17:48 |
| jonnor | lcuk: and what is the value of that? | 17:48 |
| thiago | you're giving those options, yes | 17:48 |
| lcuk | jonnor, what is the disadvantage in that? | 17:48 |
| lcuk | 1000 apps == 1000 people marketing apps in their own way to their own set of friends | 17:49 |
| timoph | IMO selling something that anyone can package won't be a long term business | 17:49 |
| ali12341 | exactly | 17:49 |
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| jonnor | lcuk: it becomes harder to find the best fart app. | 17:49 |
| jonnor | lcuk: or indeed, a good one | 17:49 |
| ali12341 | point being | 17:49 |
| lcuk | so? | 17:49 |
| lcuk | try a few :) | 17:50 |
| lcuk | i see hundreds of same products when I go to supermarket | 17:50 |
| ali12341 | it might be perfectly legal to have an agreement with appup to limit how your competitors can use your GPL code | 17:50 |
| lbt | ali12341: yes I am indeed "using a third party agreement to prevent people from approaching your customers and offering the same service for less money" | 17:50 |
| ali12341 | but it is completely opposite to the spirit of the GPL | 17:50 |
| ali12341 | so if you want to do this, why use GPL code? | 17:50 |
| lbt | bullshit | 17:50 |
| ali12341 | unless you are using *someone elses GPL code* rather than rewrite it yourself | 17:50 |
| lbt | you seem to think that GPL has something to do with money | 17:50 |
| ali12341 | in which case, pot, meet kettle | 17:50 |
| lbt | it doesn't | 17:50 |
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| jonnor | lcuk: having to try hundreds of products to find the appropriate one does not seem like an advantage to me. | 17:51 |
| lbt | GPL != $$$ | 17:51 |
| lbt | GPL == right to redistribute and change | 17:51 |
| ali12341 | lbt: the GPL is designed to prevent companies from holding a monopoly on the supply of software | 17:51 |
| lbt | no it's not | 17:51 |
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| lbt | it's designed to encourage redist and freedom | 17:51 |
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| * lcuk vanishes to more birthday stuff | 17:51 | |
| lbt | o/ | 17:51 |
| timoph | lcuk: have fun | 17:52 |
| lcuk | getting used to being offline more, shall be on in more balanced sessions \o | 17:52 |
| ali12341 | i'm not sure why you think this has anything to do with money, since you are the only one who is trying to protect a revenue stream | 17:52 |
| ali12341 | by blocking people from giving away the thing you are trying to make artificially scarce through third party agreements | 17:52 |
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| berndhs | ali12341: you're saying if Alice uses the GPL, the only party with no rights is Alice | 17:53 |
| jonnor | ali12341: why would one want to enable people that to little to no work to give away software that other people wrote? | 17:53 |
| ali12341 | alice has the same rights as everyone else | 17:53 |
| berndhs | Bob has rights, end users have rights, but not the original author | 17:53 |
| timoph | well the orinal author has to rights too | 17:54 |
| Myrtti | I wonder how much effort does it require for me to understand qt enough to make even a rudimentary app for reading project gutenberg stuff on the exopc | 17:54 |
| timoph | plus he's the copyright holder and has given up some of his claims on the code by lisencing it as GPL | 17:54 |
| dm8tbr | Myrtti: I'm pretty green on this stuff too, but my understanding is that QML makes it very easy | 17:55 |
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| berndhs | Alice hasn't given uo anything, ALice has granted rights to others | 17:55 |
| Myrtti | I've studied it a bit but I'm far from being proficient enough to invent something "new" | 17:55 |
| thiago | the copyright holder is the one with most rights | 17:56 |
| timoph | same thing written differently IMO | 17:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | timoph: which can be reversed as soon as he releases the next version. | 17:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | GPL isn't giving up copyright. | 17:56 |
| lbt | I'm trying to fix ldap so not paying full attention | 17:56 |
| ali12341 | if you chose not to use GPL you may do whatever you want of course | 17:56 |
| timoph | yeah. poor choice in wording. I could explain this in finnish so it would make more sense :p | 17:56 |
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| lbt | Myrtti: Qt Creator? | 17:57 |
| lbt | ali12341: now *that* is evil | 17:57 |
| Myrtti | lbt: yup | 17:57 |
| lbt | Myrtti: I'lll let you know soon... I'm working on an e2e install->Apps | 17:57 |
| lbt | (ie QtCreator/SDK install) | 17:57 |
| Myrtti | lbt: I had it installed in January and it was in working condition then, but since I've gotten a new computer with new Ubuntu and my brain has gone into mush with personal/family/work issues | 17:58 |
| ali12341 | the thing i don't understand is, you seem to have a philosophical belief that you should be allowed to veto others from selling your GPL'd software | 17:58 |
| lbt | ali12341: no | 17:58 |
| lbt | I never said that | 17:58 |
| ali12341 | what did you say then? | 17:58 |
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| lbt | I said that the Intel AppUp store should have a policy that allows copyright holders to 'veto' the selling of their code. | 17:59 |
| lbt | this is not me, this is AppUp | 17:59 |
| ali12341 | lbt: why do you think that? | 17:59 |
| ali12341 | is it because you believe that developers want it? | 17:59 |
| lbt | Because then I will a) get revenue, b) release GPL code | 17:59 |
| ali12341 | if so, why do you believe that? is it because you yourself want that veto? | 17:59 |
| lbt | yes | 18:00 |
| ali12341 | so in fact, you do want that veto | 18:00 |
| thiago | lbt: I don't think the AppUp can do that | 18:00 |
| lbt | note that *you* do not have to implement that | 18:00 |
| lbt | thiago: yes. | 18:00 |
| alterego | I don't think it's a good idea either :D | 18:00 |
| thiago | anyone could download a GPL app for free and re-upload it for paying money | 18:00 |
| ali12341 | so if you think appupp should do it, do you think that all appstores should do it? | 18:00 |
| thiago | it's completely legal | 18:00 |
| alterego | If someone comes along and does a better job than you, and is using your code. I'd probably prefer to pay them :P | 18:00 |
| lbt | thiago: they can say "if the copyright holder of an app asks another user not to distribute that app then they will respect the holder's wishes" | 18:01 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Isn't that exactly what happened with VLC and Apple's App Store? | 18:01 |
| lbt | alterego: you can | 18:01 |
| lbt | Jaffa: yes | 18:01 |
| lbt | and the kernel | 18:01 |
| thiago | what if they modify the app and re-upload it? | 18:01 |
| thiago | substantial new modification | 18:01 |
| ali12341 | i'm not talking about technicalities of what is allowed, i am talking about philosophy | 18:01 |
| lbt | thiago: then I get veto rights | 18:01 |
| lbt | but not the right to upload their mods | 18:02 |
| lbt | but if we split it... | 18:02 |
| lbt | then that's fine | 18:02 |
| thiago | that's also thinking that you can't link to a GPL library and sell for money | 18:02 |
| thiago | you'd have to get the permission of all copyright holders | 18:02 |
| lbt | different | 18:02 |
| ali12341 | lbt: so if you think appup should do it, do you think that all appstores should do it? | 18:02 |
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| lbt | thiago: compliance | 18:02 |
| thiago | lbt: no, it's technically the same | 18:02 |
| thiago | it has nothing to do with the compliance | 18:02 |
| lbt | does | 18:03 |
| thiago | there are no GPL libraries in the compliancy | 18:03 |
| lbt | appup are not sharing meego | 18:03 |
| thiago | so if you're using a GPL library, it's a private lib | 18:03 |
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| lbt | I can't statically link a GPL lib... no | 18:03 |
| lbt | well I can | 18:03 |
| lbt | but if the holder asks me to stop, I must | 18:03 |
| thiago | they holder cannot force you | 18:03 |
| lbt | no | 18:04 |
| thiago | they gave you the right to do it and cannot take it back | 18:04 |
| lbt | not me | 18:04 |
| lbt | appup | 18:04 |
| Myrtti | I think you all need more cheesecake | 18:04 |
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| lbt | it's a policy | 18:04 |
| lbt | not a law | 18:04 |
| thiago | yes, appup could do it | 18:04 |
| thiago | but I'm trying to point out that this gets hairy very quickly | 18:04 |
| lbt | actually compliance makes it easy for most 1-man apps | 18:04 |
| lbt | the only code being distributed is usually single-holder | 18:04 |
| lbt | for say, QML apps | 18:05 |
| lbt | and this allows GPL apps via the appstore | 18:05 |
| lbt | and provides $$$ | 18:05 |
| lbt | they're still free via MeeGo OBS | 18:05 |
| lbt | and they can still be shared | 18:05 |
| lbt | and onwards anything goes | 18:05 |
| lbt | but AppUp *policy* is to work with the c. holder | 18:06 |
| lbt | so if someone uploads the 100% C.lbt shopper app and sells it for $0 vs my $5 | 18:06 |
| lbt | and I say please don't | 18:06 |
| lbt | then the end user has to get my app via some other means | 18:07 |
| lbt | eg c.obs, google, github | 18:07 |
| lbt | but.... the Dixons user will probably give me $5 | 18:07 |
| thiago | the problem is when the copyright split is quite complex | 18:07 |
| lbt | indeed | 18:07 |
| thiago | suppose you use a 100k-line GPL library | 18:07 |
| lbt | static? | 18:07 |
| thiago | and you have 5k lines of your own app | 18:07 |
| thiago | static or private shared | 18:07 |
| lbt | (OK) then any one of the holders can object | 18:08 |
| thiago | you're responsible for just less than 5% of the copyright | 18:08 |
| berndhs | that's why you use only LGPL libraries | 18:08 |
| thiago | should the app up contact each and every copyright holder in the library? | 18:08 |
| lbt | berndhs: same deal for LGPL | 18:08 |
| lbt | thiago: no | 18:08 |
| ali12341 | the licence used is irrelevant if any copyright holder has a veto | 18:08 |
| lbt | this is reactive | 18:08 |
| dm8tbr | mhhhh, cheesecake... | 18:08 |
| lbt | not proactive | 18:08 |
| Jaffa | thiago: I think it's reactive to veto request. | 18:08 |
| lbt | yep ... "hey, that's my shopper app.... stop giving it away" | 18:09 |
| Jaffa | thiago: i.e. any (c) owner can assert "that's my code, please don't be selling it" | 18:09 |
| thiago | appup could do that | 18:09 |
| ali12341 | i still don't understand why you released it under the GPL if it's 100% your own work and you want to impose additional restrictions | 18:09 |
| lbt | and, tbh I think that you should declare "all my code" | 18:09 |
| lbt | where "my" may == "our" | 18:10 |
| lbt | not sure about that | 18:10 |
| Jaffa | This is, almost certainly, going to be the policy of all app stores anyway. The source code licensing will play very little part. | 18:10 |
| lbt | I think it's fascinating ... could really enable a $$ model for true GPL code | 18:11 |
| lbt | where geeks win and end-users who learn about freedom win | 18:11 |
| lbt | and end users see value in service | 18:11 |
| ali12341 | as long as they don't want the freedom of competing with the original author of the software lol | 18:11 |
| timoph | IMO the best policy would be: if it's OSS then it costs 0. otherwise it will just cause bad blood | 18:12 |
| lbt | they can compete ali12341 | 18:12 |
| lbt | really | 18:12 |
| ali12341 | no they can't | 18:12 |
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| lbt | yes they can | 18:12 |
| ali12341 | because you want the right of veto in any store you are selling in | 18:12 |
| lcuk | lbt, but unless the contribution breakdown is included and usable then peripheral contributions which go to support and help the main app (for instance a porting effort to new platform) | 18:12 |
| lbt | they just can't use the original author's code to compete... | 18:12 |
| lbt | that's not competition | 18:12 |
| ali12341 | therefore by definition they cannot compete | 18:12 |
| lcuk | would not be supportable | 18:12 |
| lbt | they can give it away | 18:12 |
| ali12341 | but not anywhere where you are selling it | 18:13 |
| lbt | they can start a political party saying how all the world should just get rid of money... | 18:13 |
| berndhs | teh current economic model sucks for small developers, its not sustainable | 18:13 |
| * timoph needs cheesecake | 18:13 | |
| lbt | ali12341: they can't leech... sorry | 18:13 |
| lbt | lcuk: there was talk at AppUp of 'components' | 18:13 |
| lcuk | lbt, but they can help to make the app better | 18:13 |
| lbt | and providing a model to reimburse libs | 18:13 |
| lcuk | lbt, it is not even as far as components | 18:14 |
| lcuk | consider someone making debian packaging | 18:14 |
| lcuk | for your shopper | 18:14 |
| lbt | yep | 18:14 |
| lcuk | so then your app is not only available in appup | 18:14 |
| lcuk | but also on debian | 18:14 |
| lbt | sure | 18:14 |
| lbt | for 100% free | 18:14 |
| ali12341 | should debian respect vetos from copyright holders? | 18:14 |
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| lbt | ali12341: is that their policy? | 18:14 |
| lcuk | it would be nice to allow some fraction of revenue to go towards them | 18:14 |
| lbt | I think not | 18:14 |
| thiago | it's not a veto if it's optional | 18:14 |
| lbt | lcuk: no, not at all | 18:14 |
| thiago | it's just a suggestion | 18:14 |
| ali12341 | say you package your app for debian but do a really crap job, then someone else comes along and packages it doing a much better job... you would then be allowed to veto them just out of spite | 18:15 |
| ali12341 | lbt: i'm not asking about anyone's "policy" but your own | 18:15 |
| lbt | thiago: this is AppUp. It's not optional | 18:15 |
| lcuk | lbt, no one person can do everything! | 18:15 |
| lbt | lcuk: this isn't about debian | 18:15 |
| lcuk | sure | 18:15 |
| lbt | it's about MeeGo | 18:15 |
| lbt | now | 18:15 |
| * thiago was answering about Debian, but yeah | 18:15 | |
| lcuk | well whn a new view on shopper is offered as a patch | 18:16 |
| lbt | if a packager packages my app for AppUp and comes to me and says "80/20, you/me" ... I may say "sure" | 18:16 |
| lcuk | or someone writes documentation | 18:16 |
| lbt | lcuk: yep... now that's interesting | 18:16 |
| jonnor | lcuk: that stuff should go upstream | 18:16 |
| lbt | does that mean that I need copyright assignment for patches to my app? | 18:16 |
| lcuk | well the way you are talking, yes | 18:17 |
| lbt | ep | 18:17 |
| lbt | I agree | 18:17 |
| lbt | lets be clear here.... | 18:17 |
| lcuk | but the way I am talking, it would not matter - the collective pool would grow | 18:17 |
| ali12341 | i agree too | 18:17 |
| lbt | I release my code under GPL | 18:17 |
| ali12341 | otherwise a competitor can stealthily submit a patch then veto your app later on just to piss you off | 18:17 |
| lbt | ali12341: ye | 18:17 |
| lbt | s | 18:17 |
| lbt | so again... AppUp policy comes into play | 18:17 |
| ali12341 | thing is i can understand why you want it to work this way | 18:18 |
| lbt | they may say "can't be arsed ... no money for $$$ code" | 18:18 |
| ali12341 | what i can't understand is why you release your code as GPL | 18:18 |
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| lbt | ali12341: WHAT? | 18:18 |
| lbt | because I like GPL | 18:18 |
| lbt | it's good | 18:18 |
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| lbt | and it's *NOT ABOUT MONEY* | 18:18 |
| ali12341 | but you want to impose additional restrictions | 18:18 |
| lbt | no I don't | 18:18 |
| ali12341 | so you don't want a veto? | 18:18 |
| lbt | your arguments are wrong | 18:19 |
| ali12341 | you have failed to demonstrate that | 18:19 |
| lbt | AppUp policy is not a restriction | 18:19 |
| jonnor | if you have a veto, you can impose additional restrictions | 18:19 |
| jonnor | sure it is | 18:19 |
| lbt | no you can't | 18:19 |
| RST38h | Ah, another OSS/GPL argument! | 18:19 |
| lbt | no | 18:19 |
| ali12341 | RST38h: this isn't the usual one though lol | 18:19 |
| lbt | if me and a friend decide to do something... you can't make my friend do the same for you | 18:19 |
| lbt | he doesn't like you | 18:20 |
| timoph | yeah but ali12341 has a point there. IMO that kind model conflicts with GPL's idea | 18:20 |
| lbt | he thinks you don't contribute to the ecosystem | 18:20 |
| lbt | and thinks you'll make me sad | 18:20 |
| lbt | so he doesn't play with you | 18:20 |
| lbt | this is not a restriction | 18:20 |
| lbt | it's your personality | 18:20 |
| lbt | you leech | 18:20 |
| ali12341 | lbt: following the letter of the GPL but not the philosophy and then claiming the high ground is disingenuous | 18:20 |
| lbt | this does not make us all better | 18:20 |
| Jartza | Ok. I gave my vote. Done my part. | 18:20 |
| RST38h | ali: So what is it about? | 18:20 |
| ali12341 | RST38h: it's about whether making an agreement with a third party to add additional restrictions on the use of your "GPL" code | 18:21 |
| lbt | RST38h: I think AppUp should allow copyright holders to veto the "sale" of their apps by other users | 18:21 |
| jonnor | lbt: That is not quite the case here. If your friend is appup, this would be you asking him to not play with the other guy | 18:21 |
| jonnor | because he is a leech | 18:21 |
| lbt | yes jonnor | 18:21 |
| lbt | because appup wants to encourage creativity, not mindless copying | 18:22 |
| RST38h | ali: Not possible, violates GPL, end of story. | 18:22 |
| jonnor | that is you and your friend imposing a restriction | 18:22 |
| RST38h | lbt: And it does allow that? | 18:22 |
| lbt | RST38h: it may | 18:22 |
| lbt | it's not violating GPL | 18:22 |
| RST38h | lbt: And has anyone contacted Intel Legal? | 18:22 |
| lbt | RST38h: I will | 18:22 |
| lbt | we spoke to Appup at Summit | 18:22 |
| ali12341 | RST38h: yeah we're not discussing whether it is technically allowed or not, we're discussion the philosophical implications. at least i am... | 18:23 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ah, wait, you are selling your GPLed app and are pissed off about somebody doing the same? | 18:23 |
| lbt | yes | 18:23 |
| lbt | careful of words | 18:23 |
| thiago | lots of appup people coming to the conference | 18:23 |
| RST38h | ali: Because it is not allowed by the GPL, it should not happen and has no phhilosophical implications. | 18:23 |
| lbt | I am working with Intel to distribute my app to users. They pay for the medium. | 18:23 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok, then you are the idiot, and those guys are right | 18:23 |
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| lbt | RST38h: nope... sorry | 18:23 |
| ali12341 | *facepalm* | 18:23 |
| jonnor | RST38h: well, it has philosophical implications :p they would just be void | 18:23 |
| RST38h | Yes, lbt. Do you want an explanation? | 18:24 |
| lbt | yes | 18:24 |
| ali12341 | my point is and has always been that regardless of technicalities, using such an agreement would go against the spirit of the GPL, so why use the GPL in the first palce? | 18:25 |
| RST38h | lbt: When you GPL your app, you automatically (see GPL) allow anyone who gets it to do whatever they wish to it (including commercial redistribution) ad long as a bunch of conditions are met | 18:25 |
| lbt | Please note that a) app is GPL. b) user is free to distribute and sell it anywhere they like. c) AppUp has a policy to deal with holders. | 18:25 |
| RST38h | lbt: Now, among other things, these guys may also decide to resell it. | 18:25 |
| lbt | they can | 18:26 |
| lbt | I'm happy | 18:26 |
| lbt | they can make CDs with it ... anything | 18:26 |
| RST38h | lbt: AppUp cannot refuse them to do it in this case, because these guys are not violating anything | 18:26 |
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| timoph | but you're not happy if they give it away for free? | 18:26 |
| jonnor | ali12341: you want to encourage people to write free software though. If you make it beneficial to not free your software (because it will be much harder to get any revenue), less people will likely create free software | 18:26 |
| jonnor | ali12341: that seems like something we would want to try to fight, right? | 18:26 |
| lbt | RST38h: AppUp are not obliged by any law to deal with any given party | 18:26 |
| RST38h | lbt: Including you, mind you | 18:27 |
| lbt | RST38h: check the debate | 18:27 |
| lbt | yes | 18:27 |
| ali12341 | jonnor: what's your point? | 18:27 |
| RST38h | lbt: So, however pissed you are, AppUp is well within their rights here | 18:27 |
| lbt | AppUp are essentially charging to deliver the GPL SW. (like FSF used to do) | 18:27 |
| lbt | RST38h: wait | 18:27 |
| RST38h | lbt: BTW, same stuff occurs on Android Store all the time AFAIK | 18:27 |
| lbt | you think I want to stop Appup | 18:27 |
| lbt | I don't | 18:28 |
| RST38h | ok,so what do you want? | 18:28 |
| lbt | I want AppUp to make a policy statement | 18:28 |
| RST38h | ok, of what kind? | 18:28 |
| lbt | ask me what and why | 18:28 |
| ssvb | lbt: why don't you use some other open source license for your app? why even involving GPL here? | 18:28 |
| RST38h | lbt: What policy statement? | 18:28 |
| lbt | "If the copyright holder of an app asks us not to distribute. We will respect their moral right" | 18:29 |
| lbt | ssvb: GPL rules | 18:29 |
| ali12341 | even if the copyright holder has chosen not to sell their app in appup? | 18:29 |
| lbt | nb... see Linus and kernel | 18:29 |
| ssvb | lbt: effectively you just need a modified GPL with additional clause | 18:29 |
| lbt | ssvb: no not at all | 18:29 |
| lbt | bad idea | 18:29 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok. Because you GPLed your app, they have a right to distribute. | 18:30 |
| lbt | you may sell my code | 18:30 |
| lbt | yes, they have the right | 18:30 |
| RST38h | lbt: And you gave them that right yourself. | 18:30 |
| lbt | not the obligation | 18:30 |
| lbt | yes, I did | 18:30 |
| lbt | not only that | 18:30 |
| ssvb | lbt: but the other standard GPL license users should not be hurt by you, that would just suck | 18:30 |
| RST38h | So, what are you complaining about? | 18:30 |
| lbt | when they sell my app to a user I *oblige* them to make the src available | 18:30 |
| RST38h | If you really want to control your app distribution, DO NOT GPL IT | 18:30 |
| lbt | no | 18:30 |
| lbt | wrong | 18:30 |
| ali12341 | RST38h: apparently he has a "moral right" to veto anyone from profiting from his code (or even giving it away) | 18:30 |
| RST38h | If you GPL it, do not complain | 18:30 |
| lbt | I simply deal wihth the distributor | 18:30 |
| RST38h | ali:This contradicts GPL. | 18:31 |
| ali12341 | RST38h: maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. IANAL. but it certainly is against the philosophy of the GPL | 18:31 |
| RST38h | ali: It really contradicts GPL, sorry | 18:31 |
| lbt | RST38h: you have a brain ... pay attention | 18:31 |
| RST38h | ali: even IANAL can tell you that after reading GPL | 18:31 |
| lbt | I am not preventing anything | 18:32 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok. So, AppUp is distributing your app. Do they make the source code available too? | 18:32 |
| lbt | yes | 18:32 |
| lbt | of course | 18:32 |
| RST38h | lbt: then they are within GPL | 18:32 |
| lbt | yes | 18:32 |
| RST38h | lbt: Once again: what makes you think you can veto redistribution by them? | 18:32 |
| lbt | please listen | 18:32 |
| RST38h | listening | 18:33 |
| lbt | I do not want to veto redistribution by AppUp | 18:33 |
| lbt | I want AppUp to veto redistribution by AppUp | 18:33 |
| jonnor | on your request? | 18:34 |
| RST38h | *facepalm* | 18:34 |
| lbt | They say to me "what do you think lbt?" | 18:34 |
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| lbt | I say ... no | 18:34 |
| lbt | they say "ok" | 18:34 |
| lbt | this is not me "demanding" | 18:34 |
| RST38h | And they say, "well, it is GPLed, so we distribute it anyway" | 18:34 |
| lbt | I have no such right | 18:34 |
| lbt | yep | 18:34 |
| lbt | wait | 18:34 |
| RST38h | You want them to listen to you? | 18:34 |
| lbt | now... | 18:34 |
| lbt | yes | 18:34 |
| lbt | ask why | 18:34 |
| RST38h | Good luck with that. | 18:34 |
| GAN900 | I'd say you picked the wrong license. :) | 18:34 |
| lbt | nope | 18:34 |
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| RST38h | It does not matter "why", really. | 18:34 |
| lbt | I spoke to them all weekend | 18:34 |
| ssvb | lbt: now listen to me :) | 18:35 |
| lbt | you guys think this is a license issue | 18:35 |
| lbt | it's not | 18:35 |
| Myrtti | cheesecake | 18:35 |
| lbt | it is nothing to do with that | 18:35 |
| timoph | Myrtti: hmmh :p~ | 18:35 |
| lbt | it is to do with encouraging the MeeGo ecosystem | 18:35 |
| lbt | how? | 18:35 |
| GAN900 | How does AppUp decide it's your code? | 18:35 |
| lbt | by working with GPL developers | 18:35 |
| lbt | GAN900: good question ... lets assume that it has a copyright on it | 18:36 |
| alterego | Yay! | 18:36 |
| timoph | Myrtti: btw, did you try areena on full screen. flash crashes in full screen for me | 18:36 |
| lbt | AppUp are very keen to encourage us | 18:36 |
| lbt | they want to find ways... they are literally paying us money to make apps | 18:37 |
| ssvb | lbt: I'm participating in development of one free software application (a game) and might want to publish it on some app stores some time later, I may want to abandon this activity any time and pass it to somebody else, and I surely do *not* want anyone to bother me asking for any special permissions to do this | 18:37 |
| alterego | I've not built locally using osc build: meego-handset-dialer-0.1.19-2.armv7hl.rpm | 18:37 |
| alterego | :D | 18:37 |
| lbt | ssvb: that's fine | 18:37 |
| RST38h | lbt: I think it is like encouraging toads to fly | 18:37 |
| alterego | s/not/now/ | 18:37 |
| RST38h | lbt: No matter how much you do it, toads will not fly. And the GPLed sodftware will notmake you money. | 18:37 |
| lbt | RST38h: wrong | 18:37 |
| lbt | it's making me plenty thanks | 18:37 |
| RST38h | lbt: YOu want to encourage the "ecosystem"? Allow people to profit from their work. | 18:37 |
| lbt | RST38h: you don't grok GPL economics.... | 18:38 |
| RST38h | Actually, I probably do it better than somepeople here :) | 18:38 |
| lbt | true | 18:38 |
| ssvb | lbt: It's not fine for me! Moreover, I may be hit by a bus tomorrow, and in this case the development of this application has a risk of be deadlocked. I want to ensure that this will not happen and GPL license protects my rights here. | 18:38 |
| lbt | ssvb: it will | 18:38 |
| jonnor | RST38h: that seems to be what lbt is trying to do | 18:38 |
| ssvb | lbt: and you want to take this right from me | 18:39 |
| RST38h | The only way to profit from a GPL product is to take it from someone else and resell | 18:39 |
| lbt | ssvb: god no | 18:39 |
| lbt | RST38h: bullshit | 18:39 |
| jonnor | RST38h: what? what is the logic? | 18:39 |
| RST38h | Adding legal protections / services / support / etc | 18:39 |
| RST38h | lbt: Really? Look at any successful GPL company. Like Redhat ;) | 18:39 |
| lbt | " take it from someone else " | 18:39 |
| RST38h | jonnor: The logic is simple | 18:39 |
| ssvb | RST38h: the only way to profit from GPL application is to provide a good paid (or donations based) support | 18:40 |
| jonnor | RST38h: RedHat writes huge amount of their product themselves (not everything, or even the majority, but still) | 18:40 |
| RST38h | jonnor: If you spend money on GPL development, someone else can always take the result of your work and create an identical company minus the money spent on development | 18:40 |
| lbt | ssvb: what I'm saying is that if your game turns up on the appstore and you don't want it there... you ask them to take it down | 18:40 |
| RST38h | ssvb: Really? | 18:40 |
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| lbt | if you *do* want it there... or don't care... do nothing | 18:40 |
| RST38h | ssvb: What will prohibit someone else from taking your stuff and providing even better support for it? | 18:40 |
| RST38h | ssvb: And I do not even want to start on donations :) | 18:41 |
| Myrtti | timoph: yup, same thing | 18:41 |
| lbt | RST38h you are now arguing about GPL vs proprietary | 18:41 |
| lbt | feel free | 18:41 |
| jonnor | RST38h: a typical effect of doing the development is that you gain (as a sideeffect) the competence to do support | 18:41 |
| ssvb | RST38h: well, that's a jungle law here, survival for the fittest :) | 18:41 |
| lbt | that's not something I care about | 18:41 |
| Myrtti | but I guess it's a thing of count your blessings. atleast there IS flash | 18:41 |
| RST38h | lbt: All I am saying is that "GPL economy" is an oxymoron. | 18:41 |
| jonnor | I would say that this is a core part of why RedHat is succesfull | 18:41 |
| * lbt looks at his Jaguar | 18:41 | |
| ssvb | RST38h: if I were afraid of this, then I would not use GPL in the first place | 18:41 |
| ali12341 | jonnor: yeah that's why they are not releasing their kernel patches to make it harder for their competitors | 18:42 |
| RST38h | ssvb: And you just handicapped yourself by investing into a project that can be reused by nyone else at 0 cost | 18:42 |
| jonnor | ali12341: their kernel patches are released, just in a slightly less convenient way than before | 18:42 |
| ali12341 | sorry, of course they release them, just not as a proper patch series | 18:42 |
| jonnor | or well, they don't release the individual patches as such, but the end-result | 18:42 |
| ali12341 | but you know what i mean | 18:43 |
| lbt | jonnor: indeed .... this is simply an anti-leech mechanism | 18:43 |
| ssvb | RST38h: not really, that's a hobby project :) more like GPL is perfect when abandoning something, and I would not want the people who could potentially pick it up to have any problems | 18:43 |
| RST38h | ssvb: I think you are drifting off topic here | 18:43 |
| ssvb | and if a certain app store enforces some weird policy, that would be a problem | 18:43 |
| lbt | except it draws power (probably too much) from Intel's control of AppUp | 18:43 |
| lbt | ssvb: weird? | 18:43 |
| jonnor | ali12341: yes, I know. They would probably be successfull without it as well though (just less so), so it does not make my point invalid | 18:43 |
| ssvb | RST38h: not really, I'm just protecting my rights here :) | 18:43 |
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| ali12341 | regardless of whether the GPL economy works, and regardless of whether any of these "anti-leech" measures works or is allowable, it's all against the philosophy of the GPL | 18:44 |
| ali12341 | so why even bother? | 18:44 |
| RST38h | Astronauts on long space missions may not be able to take paracetamol to treat a headache or antibiotics to fight infection, a study has found. | 18:44 |
| RST38h | Hm | 18:44 |
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| lbt | no it isn't | 18:44 |
| ali12341 | if you don't believe in the philosophy, why use it? | 18:45 |
| lbt | FSF used to sell tapes with GPL code | 18:45 |
| RST38h | Forget that damn philosophy thing. It is against the letter of the GPL | 18:45 |
| lbt | no it isn't | 18:45 |
| ali12341 | lbt: did they also have an agreement with the USPO not to ship tapes from anyone else? | 18:45 |
| lbt | nothing in the GPL obliges me and my mate to sell your code RST38h | 18:45 |
| RST38h | So, you either GPL your stuff and sit tight, or you release it under the license that says "I retain the right to veto redistribution: | 18:45 |
| lbt | ali12341: no and nothing stopped them | 18:45 |
| jonnor | RST38h: it is maybe not if appUp is the one denying redistribution (and not the copyright holder)? | 18:46 |
| RST38h | lbt:First of all, I do not GPL code. | 18:46 |
| ali12341 | lbt: nothing stopped them except that it would be completely against their entire philosophy | 18:46 |
| lbt | RST38h: no license | 18:46 |
| lbt | ali12341: not really | 18:46 |
| jonnor | I mean, appUp is under no obligation to redistribute something simply because it is GPL | 18:46 |
| lbt | they did do that | 18:46 |
| RST38h | lbt:Secondly, GPL does not oblige, it allows in this case | 18:46 |
| lbt | ali12341: they did have an agreement with their carrier that no-one else could use the carrier | 18:46 |
| RST38h | lbt: And I do not think AppUp guys have the same goals as yourself either | 18:46 |
| ali12341 | lbt: i want to knwo more about this | 18:46 |
| ssvb | lbt: You just have selected the wrong license. Don't try to poison appup with some additional restrictions, which are even not compatible with GPL and can cause problems for other people | 18:47 |
| lbt | the FSF paid a person to make the tapes. During office hours that person wan't allowed to make and sell tapes for other people. | 18:47 |
| RST38h | lbt: Their main goal at the moment is most likely to pool as many apps as possible in their store to insure positive progress reports on the AppUp project | 18:47 |
| lbt | RST38h: and? | 18:47 |
| RST38h | lbt: And, everyone gets awarded, patted on the shoulder, and told to continue with the good work | 18:48 |
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| lbt | ali12341: that person was "the carrier" for that period. Probably just along the street. | 18:48 |
| lbt | RST38h: now you're just trolling | 18:48 |
| RST38h | lbt: As opposed to the inquiry into "why the hell are we wasting money on this empty web site?" | 18:48 |
| lbt | ssvb: nope. It's the right license | 18:49 |
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| RST38h | lbt: wish I were. | 18:49 |
| lbt | RST38h: ? not following | 18:49 |
| ali12341 | lbt: it's a bit far from "don't do work for other people while we're paying you" to "don't do work for other people ever again" | 18:49 |
| RST38h | lbt: One more time | 18:49 |
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| lbt | (the empty website reference) | 18:50 |
| ssvb | lbt: If you need additional blanket protection to be enforced on everyone to make it work for you the way you want, then it is not the right license for you. Period. | 18:50 |
| lbt | ssvb: pay attention | 18:50 |
| RST38h | lbt: Your view: "AppUp people are working on enabling the ecosystem, so why shouldn't they do what I say with my GPLed app, as this will be for the best of the ecosystem" | 18:50 |
| lbt | there is no restriction | 18:50 |
| lbt | RST38h: yep | 18:50 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Their view: "If we let anyone withdraw their stuff from our store, what will be left? So, let us include every single thing we can legally include there." | 18:51 |
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| jonnor | especially since that will be less work | 18:51 |
| lbt | RST38h: no. That's your view of their view | 18:51 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Right. | 18:51 |
| RST38h | lbt: But I have got your point of view right? Why do you think I have got their point of view wrong? | 18:52 |
| lbt | Along with the general "MeeGo will fail, why bother" yadda yadaa | 18:52 |
| RST38h | No | 18:52 |
| RST38h | In fact, I do not believe that Meego will fail. | 18:52 |
| lbt | RST38h: I spent several hours with them | 18:52 |
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| lbt | and... if they don't do what I say... then I will believe you | 18:52 |
| RST38h | It *may*, but it is just one of the outcomes | 18:52 |
| jonnor | lbt: why not simply let app packages maintained by copyrightholders / upstream project get a special annotation | 18:52 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok. | 18:52 |
| ssvb | lbt: the restriction is that if I want to use someone's else code in my work (not necessarily yours, maybe from a guy who understands GPL the right way :) ), then I would have additional potential troubles with AppUp. | 18:53 |
| jonnor | showing the user that by supporting this version, they are endorsing the original | 18:53 |
| lbt | ssvb: ah... you want to sell someone elses code at AppUp.... gotcha | 18:53 |
| ssvb | lbt: and I don't want these troubles, because GPL explicitly grants me some rights | 18:53 |
| RST38h | The trouble here is not with AppUp though. It is with the GPL itself, being unsuitable for business | 18:53 |
| RST38h | Wait, wrong wording. | 18:53 |
| jonnor | ideally there would also be some way in the app store UI to filter based on this | 18:53 |
| lbt | RST38h: OK ... but the GPL is a redistribution license | 18:54 |
| RST38h | Make it "unsuitable for software business" | 18:54 |
| lbt | ssvb: it doesn't give you the rights you think it gives you | 18:54 |
| RST38h | If I am making a gadget, or selling services, GPL is a godsend to me | 18:54 |
| lbt | it does not give you the right to force others to do anything | 18:54 |
| ssvb | lbt: ever heard about the libraries and code reuse? | 18:55 |
| ali12341 | lbt: you still haven't explained how what you seek is *morally* compatible with the GPL | 18:55 |
| lbt | RST38h: honestly... this isn't sw business... it's 1-man apps.... toys | 18:55 |
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| lbt | ssvb: yes... | 18:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: As long as you are mamking money selling them,it is business | 18:55 |
| RST38h | s/mamking/making | 18:55 |
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| lbt | RST38h: yeah... so's a paper round.... | 18:55 |
| ssvb | lbt: in the modern world a lot of work is based on the work done by somebody else, people don't reinvent wheels... | 18:55 |
| lbt | ssvb: yep | 18:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: Hey, I am approaching this formally | 18:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: Besides, lots of people are either making or hoping to make money selling this crap | 18:56 |
| lbt | RST38h: yeah..... *giggle* | 18:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: *exactly* | 18:56 |
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| lbt | they will make enough for a nice meal every now and again ... if they're lucky | 18:57 |
| lbt | as most IOS devs eventually discover | 18:57 |
| lbt | a few will make a lot ... sure | 18:57 |
| lbt | most won't | 18:57 |
| ssvb | lbt: Then you should get the point. GPL was invented to promote progress and code reuse | 18:58 |
| lbt | this is about recognition, a few $$ here and there for GPL devs to get some beer | 18:58 |
| lbt | ssvb: do you seriously think I don't know the GPL very well indeed | 18:58 |
| RST38h | lbt: That is why app stores suck. | 18:58 |
| alterego | I think if people actually cared to make money they wouldn't release their code under gpl in the first place :) | 18:58 |
| ali12341 | i seriously think you understand the technicalities but miss the point of the philosophy | 18:58 |
| lbt | RST38h: yep.... | 18:58 |
| RST38h | lbt: and so does Apple's model, at least for developers | 18:58 |
| lbt | alterego: indeed | 18:59 |
| lbt | ali12341: nope.... you do | 18:59 |
| ali12341 | no u | 18:59 |
| ssvb | lbt: yes do, otherwise you would not have started this silly discussion :) | 18:59 |
| RST38h | lbt: It is a supermarket with all the isles turned sideways to the customer | 18:59 |
| lbt | hehe | 18:59 |
| lbt | ssvb: and ali12341 I'm still looking for something that contravenes the GPL | 19:00 |
| lbt | in my proposal | 19:00 |
| ali12341 | lbt: i've been saying for the past hour or so that i don't care about legality | 19:00 |
| lbt | other than your opinion of the philosophy | 19:00 |
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| ali12341 | i only care about morality of doing what you propose | 19:00 |
| lbt | nb... I'm GPL3 compliant too | 19:00 |
| jonnor | lbt: philosophically you effectively want to limit redistribution | 19:01 |
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| lbt | jonnor: no, not really | 19:01 |
| lbt | jonnor: it's still on AppUp | 19:01 |
| jonnor | what? | 19:01 |
| lbt | I put it there... it costs $2 | 19:01 |
| lbt | ali12341 then wants to copy it and sell it for $1 | 19:02 |
| lbt | my app | 19:02 |
| lbt | he has GPL rights you know | 19:02 |
| lbt | and morality is on his side | 19:02 |
| ali12341 | you granted me that right when you released it GPL | 19:02 |
| ali12341 | and now you want to take it away | 19:02 |
| lbt | no, I didn't | 19:02 |
| jonnor | yes, you effectively restricted his redistrubtion of it | 19:02 |
| lbt | I gave you the right to *try* and sell it | 19:02 |
| lbt | I restrict his ability to negotiate with my partner | 19:02 |
| ali12341 | and now you want to take away my right to even *try* to sell it, since it won't be for sale | 19:02 |
| lbt | you can sell it | 19:03 |
| jonnor | yes, you effectively restricted his redistrubtion of it by having a party that is not legally obliged to redistribute deny him to redistribute through their channel | 19:03 |
| lbt | go down to any market... I won't complain | 19:03 |
| lbt | yeah, and | 19:03 |
| lbt | that is not restricting his rights | 19:03 |
| ali12341 | yes it is | 19:03 |
| lbt | at all | 19:03 |
| lbt | no it's not.. they are not "rights" | 19:04 |
| ali12341 | stop oppressing me | 19:04 |
| berndhs | the customer in this case is AppUp, not the end user | 19:04 |
| lbt | they are commercial contracts | 19:04 |
| lbt | and AppUp *want* (in my mind) this | 19:04 |
| lbt | they *like* to make me happy | 19:04 |
| lbt | I write code for their store | 19:04 |
| ali12341 | isn't this a little bit like... a cartel doing price fixing? | 19:04 |
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| lbt | you piss me offf (not really... in the scenario) | 19:05 |
| ali12341 | heh | 19:05 |
| lbt | ali12341: yes | 19:05 |
| lbt | it's called "free market" | 19:05 |
| berndhs | its only a cartel if it controls a significant percentage of the market | 19:05 |
| jonnor | lbt: and you think that is within the philosophy of the gpl? | 19:05 |
| lbt | because AppUp doesn't have a monopoly | 19:05 |
| lbt | free market? | 19:05 |
| lbt | the GPL is all for competition | 19:05 |
| lcuk | what if appup would accept any GPL app if it included a contribution breakdown as additional verification? | 19:05 |
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| lbt | lcuk: I kept clear until the black/white is understood | 19:06 |
| lcuk | no contribution breakdown, not on the store | 19:06 |
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| lbt | if we can't agree on an app that is 100% mine... | 19:06 |
| lcuk | the breakdown there is 100% David | 19:06 |
| lcuk | no qualms | 19:06 |
| ali12341 | if it's really 100% yours then the solution is simple: instead of setting up an illegal cartel to do price fixing... simply DONT USE GPL | 19:06 |
| lcuk | lbt, consider it like the signing off process | 19:07 |
| lbt | ali12341: hehe.... grow up "illegal cartel"?? :) | 19:07 |
| w00t_ | there is nothing illegal about it | 19:07 |
| ali12341 | i would rather you don't use GPL for such morally questionable enterprises | 19:07 |
| w00t_ | just because you don't like an idea does not make it illegal | 19:07 |
| lbt | lcuk: yeah, could do that... but I suspect AppUp will say "not 100%, no $$$" | 19:07 |
| berndhs | 1 person trying to get a fair (small) price for 1 app is not an "illegal cartel" ? | 19:07 |
| lbt | that would be a good policy IMHO | 19:07 |
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| lcuk | lbt, but if you include the account names of each participant | 19:08 |
| lbt | so, feel free to package VLC - but no you can't sell it | 19:08 |
| ali12341 | two parties colluding to fix prices = a cartel | 19:08 |
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| lbt | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel | 19:08 |
| lbt | "competing firms" | 19:09 |
| Myrtti | mmmm pizza with blue cheese | 19:09 |
| ali12341 | ok fair point | 19:09 |
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| lbt | me and AppUp.... we're "like that" .... ;) | 19:09 |
| lbt | seriously.... | 19:09 |
| lbt | where "me" == "any GPL dev" | 19:09 |
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| lbt | not "any GPL rights holder" | 19:09 |
| jonnor | lbt: You stated before that the copyright holders libraries included/used by an app should also have a say. Why should the appup not ask for "permission" to redistribute app X from every copyright holder all the way down to the kernel? Where is the line drawn? | 19:10 |
| lbt | AppUp are not interested in distributing GPL code... | 19:10 |
| lbt | jonnor: agreed | 19:10 |
| lbt | 2 reasons | 19:10 |
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| w00t_ | the GPL is pretty explicit on what comprises a derived work | 19:10 |
| lbt | 1: AppUp are not shipping anything other than my code | 19:10 |
| lbt | 2: MeeGo is shipping the rest | 19:10 |
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| lbt | w00t_: I'm very very serious about proposing this to AppUp... do you have an issue with what I'm saying? | 19:12 |
| lbt | ali12341: I think we still disagree - but thanks for making me argue. I'm pretty happy that we'd get a little closer in an in-person debate. | 19:13 |
| w00t_ | lbt: not in principle.. my only issue comes to what happens with (active) forks, and so on | 19:13 |
| ssvb | lbt: hopefully they will reject your proposal, why can't you solve YOUR problem in such a way which does not bother other people? | 19:14 |
| lbt | *nod* ... and contributions back to my proj | 19:14 |
| jonnor | lbt: so as the author of any non-meego library, I will/can be asked to give redistribution permission for any app using that? | 19:14 |
| lbt | ssvb: I think you missed something... your args don't make sense | 19:14 |
| w00t_ | ssvb: who is this bothering? | 19:14 |
| lbt | jonnor: IMHO... you have to make the objection | 19:14 |
| lbt | jonnor: this is a courtesy to prevent leeching | 19:15 |
| jonnor | lbt: Ok. But I am entitled to? | 19:15 |
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| lbt | yes | 19:15 |
| ssvb | w00t_: I'm as a GPL application developer don't want to deal with this crap | 19:15 |
| lbt | jonnor: not obliged to | 19:15 |
| lbt | ssvb: you don't have to ... in any way | 19:15 |
| berndhs | ssvb: if you dont deal with it, nobody will bother you | 19:15 |
| w00t_ | ssvb: you aren't obliged to | 19:15 |
| lbt | we won't ask you, we'll sell your code... np | 19:16 |
| lbt | (and give away the src) | 19:16 |
| ali12341 | and.... he won't mind? | 19:16 |
| jonnor | This seems like a strange power to give library devs. Especially if the library is licensed LGPL or more liberal, an appliation developer would not expect the library to be able to do such. | 19:16 |
| lbt | no, he GPL'ed it | 19:16 |
| ali12341 | exactly | 19:16 |
| berndhs | we'll take the money, get some nice booze, and toast you in your absence | 19:16 |
| lbt | jonnor: it's not a legal power | 19:16 |
| jonnor | lbt: no, but it is still a power | 19:17 |
| lbt | jonnor: feel free to help me refine the policy | 19:17 |
| lbt | bear in mind the meego model | 19:17 |
| lbt | which is "no libs" | 19:17 |
| ali12341 | jonnor: i don't see how libraries and the platform have anything to do with it. the only thing that matters is what you download from appup in the package | 19:17 |
| lbt | (which I hate btw) | 19:17 |
| lbt | and I am working my fingers to the bone doing a truly 'free' solution for those of us not buying apps at Dixons | 19:18 |
| jonnor | as an application devleoper mainly targetting Meego and AppUp, I might find myself in the situation that I wrote 10k lines of code that depend on library X, and then the copyright holder of that lib can suddenly cause me to have to stop redistribution in that channel | 19:18 |
| jonnor | perhaps because he did not like my face | 19:18 |
| lbt | yes | 19:18 |
| lbt | if that bothers you... don't use GPL | 19:18 |
| lbt | not sure about LGPL | 19:18 |
| ali12341 | no | 19:18 |
| jonnor | hah | 19:18 |
| lbt | this is *policy* | 19:18 |
| ssvb | jonner: exactly | 19:18 |
| ali12341 | that's completely backwards | 19:18 |
| jonnor | there is nothing in GPL that would suggest this | 19:19 |
| lbt | if you think that a GPL dev will veto your code and that bothers you... | 19:19 |
| jonnor | it *can* happen, sure, with the setup you have proposed | 19:19 |
| ali12341 | to paraphrase what you just said: "if you are worried about developers preventing you from redistributing code, don't use GPL" | 19:19 |
| lbt | so... | 19:19 |
| lbt | do you think it's a high risk ? | 19:19 |
| lbt | I don't | 19:19 |
| jonnor | but I do not see any interpretation that says this is an intent of the GPL | 19:19 |
| ali12341 | it's not a high risk... unless you get your way | 19:19 |
| lbt | ali12341: so if I used your GPL code you'd veto my app ? | 19:20 |
| ali12341 | lbt: i'd veto your app unless you agreed not to veto my app | 19:20 |
| lbt | indeed | 19:20 |
| ali12341 | lbt: result: mutually assured destruction | 19:20 |
| lbt | then we get drunk together | 19:20 |
| lbt | or that | 19:20 |
| lcuk | speaking of which, I should unpack my ideapad, jake was asking to play tictactoe on it before | 19:21 |
| RST38h | I think the solution to this fiery argument can best be summarized: "go by the letter of GPL *or* license under different terms" | 19:21 |
| ali12341 | s/letter/spirit/ | 19:21 |
| RST38h | forget the spirit, spirit is subjective | 19:21 |
| ssvb | ali12341: wrong | 19:21 |
| RST38h | the letter is not though, so obey that | 19:21 |
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| ali12341 | i'm not convinced that the idea is against the letetr of the GPL | 19:22 |
| berndhs | going by the spirit ensure those with better lawyers win :P | 19:22 |
| RST38h | ali: It is, reread the GPL | 19:22 |
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| jonnor | RST38h: I don't think lbts proposed way is against the letter of the GPL. Key being that the party limiting redistribution (appup) is not obliged to redistribute | 19:22 |
| ssvb | ali12341: by the letter of GPL you grant the others the same redistribution rights as you have. And if you legally can't grant this right when using AppUp, then you can't use AppUp yourself | 19:23 |
| RST38h | jonnor: key being that appup is not supposed to give a flying fuck about lbt's attempts at vetoing redistribution | 19:23 |
| jonnor | RST38h: there is no legal ground for them havint to do that, is there? | 19:24 |
| RST38h | jonnor: now, it *may*, if lbt asks nicely, but in general case it doesnot have to | 19:24 |
| RST38h | jonnor: yes, there is no legal ground for the veto | 19:24 |
| w00t_ | how is that against the letter of the GPL? | 19:24 |
| jonnor | Yes, they are allowed to. Ergo, the letter of the GPL is not enough. | 19:24 |
| w00t_ | exactly | 19:25 |
| RST38h | jonnor: Once again: the letter of the gPL explicitely ALLOWS them to redistribute, veto or not | 19:25 |
| RST38h | jonnor: If "GPL is not enough" then lbt should not license under GPL | 19:25 |
| jonnor | I have not claimed otherwise. | 19:25 |
| berndhs | right, the veto is between lbt and AppUp | 19:25 |
| RST38h | right | 19:25 |
| lcuk | using the contribution breakdown, redistribution would continue and be happy | 19:25 |
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| ali12341 | lcuk: no because it also places additional restrictions: "you can only redistribute if you give me x%" | 19:26 |
| ali12341 | lcuk: although it is morally better than lbt's idea :) | 19:26 |
| lcuk | ali12341, it is their server, they ask for other restrictions anyway | 19:26 |
| lcuk | you are not granted a right to automatically upload anything | 19:26 |
| jonnor | I do not think lbt proposed solution is a very good one to encouraging development of free software apps. | 19:26 |
| berndhs | I think lbt's proposal will discourage leeches | 19:27 |
| lbt | sec... fixing LDAP | 19:27 |
| lcuk | ali12341, the breakdwon would simply give the store owners a viable way to ensure the authors get the designated recognition | 19:27 |
| jonnor | berndhs: and that there are no better solution to doing that? | 19:27 |
| * RST38h suggests using a community operated repo, Maemo-style, rather than rely on AppUp | 19:27 | |
| ali12341 | i think leeches will be discouraged by the fact that leeching will result in the price dropping to zero | 19:27 |
| berndhs | jonnor: you have a better proposal ? | 19:28 |
| lbt | at last | 19:28 |
| ssvb | berndhs: it will not, the leeches are only going to benefit from some dumb guys using GPL | 19:28 |
| lcuk | with breakdown, leeches will be discouraged until substantial changes have been made anywayu | 19:28 |
| RST38h | You get more control over the repo + no need to go through the ugly flash-heavy web site | 19:28 |
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| RST38h | And if someone uploads your stuff to AppUp, well, such is life | 19:29 |
| ssvb | berndhs: so it's not a problem at all, those who want to make profit will use a different license | 19:29 |
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| ali12341 | the fact of the matter is that the veto can and will be used to stiffle real competition | 19:29 |
| timoph | ssvb: exactly | 19:29 |
| lbt | RST38h: we'll use just the c.obs when you get Dixons signed up | 19:29 |
| ali12341 | ie the case where someone adds valuable functionality | 19:29 |
| berndhs | I think some of the anti-lbt arguments here are in favour of $0 software for all end users | 19:30 |
| jonnor | berndhs: Perhaps. 1) Make it clear on apps that are packages and maintained by upstream that they are so. 2) Let the appstore and frontend favor such apps over others | 19:30 |
| lbt | berndhs: yep... | 19:30 |
| RST38h | lbt: not familiar with either of the entities | 19:30 |
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| lbt | high street store and open app store | 19:30 |
| lcuk | ali12341, at that point, the contribution breakdown would change and fees obtained would be shared in a balanced way | 19:30 |
| ssvb | berndhs: no, the anti-lbt arguments are to ensure that open source projects with multiple contributors (and many copyright holders as a result) will not have any troubles getting to AppUp | 19:31 |
| ali12341 | lcuk: not under the veto plan | 19:31 |
| lbt | ssvb: why would they? | 19:31 |
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| ali12341 | lcuk: under the veto plan, the original author would veto the version with extended functions | 19:31 |
| ssvb | lbt: what if some of the contributors can't be found to explicitly grant their permission? | 19:32 |
| lbt | ali12341: *would*? | 19:32 |
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| ali12341 | lcuk: then the original version wouldn't be able to incorporate the extras either, because the author author would veto that | 19:32 |
| lbt | ali12341: surely *could* | 19:32 |
| lbt | ssvb: did you not listen? | 19:32 |
| lbt | no persmission needed | 19:32 |
| berndhs | ssvb: if they can't be found to grant, they can't be found to veto eitehr | 19:32 |
| ali12341 | lbt: yeah "could" in the sense that politicians "could" be corrupt | 19:32 |
| ali12341 | ie it definitely will happen eventually | 19:33 |
| lbt | ali12341: so GPL devs tend to be corrupt? | 19:33 |
| ssvb | lbt: of course they can show up later, and I don;t want this to happen | 19:33 |
| lbt | ssvb: yeah ... like VLC did | 19:33 |
| ali12341 | lbt: humans tend to be corrupt, yeah | 19:33 |
| lbt | they have a moral objection to apple/intel shipping their code | 19:33 |
| ali12341 | human nature | 19:33 |
| lbt | ali12341: so your problem is that you don't trust GPL devs | 19:34 |
| ali12341 | lbt: yeah | 19:34 |
| berndhs | again, some poeple here assume only GPL devs are evil, while forkers and copuiers are all nice people | 19:34 |
| ali12341 | lbt: if i trusted them i wouldn't need the GPL | 19:34 |
| lbt | and you think they'll stop you using their GPL code | 19:34 |
| lbt | hehe | 19:34 |
| pexi | no one is evil, nature of power just is | 19:34 |
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| ali12341 | lbt: yes, since that's *exactly* what you are doing | 19:34 |
| lbt | the devs don't trust you you fool | 19:34 |
| lbt | lbt doesn't protect you | 19:34 |
| lbt | it protects them from you | 19:34 |
| lbt | GPL | 19:34 |
| lbt | ROFL | 19:35 |
| ali12341 | i don't think it, you have explicitly stated it to be the case for the whole of this discussion | 19:35 |
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| ssvb | berndhs: what about a random corrupt contributor of some tiny feature years ago? who decided that he wants to have his share of profit (if there is any) or a minute of fame now | 19:35 |
| lbt | no, I think if you read the backlog I have a very solid stance | 19:35 |
| ali12341 | GPL protects software from developers | 19:35 |
| lbt | ssvb: yes... indeed | 19:35 |
| ali12341 | RMS is very clear on this | 19:35 |
| lbt | you are not software (I think) | 19:36 |
| berndhs | i'm in favour of original authors benefiting form their work | 19:36 |
| berndhs | i'm not in favour of users having an eternal right to more services from the original authors | 19:36 |
| timoph | if a dev is after $$ and distribution control GPL isn't the lisence to use | 19:37 |
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| Myrtti | depending on the revenue model | 19:38 |
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| berndhs | if someone uses version 1.2.3 legitimately, under ANY license, they dont have rights to 1.2.4 | 19:38 |
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| w00t_ | berndhs: where did anyone say anything to the contrary? :p | 19:39 |
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| w00t_ | (i'm admittedly not following the discussion too closely) | 19:40 |
| berndhs | w00t_: basically the arguments "what if the dev changes their mind" imply that the dev has to keep giving thigns away | 19:40 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: what if they change their mind about 1.2.3? | 19:41 |
| berndhs | they can't | 19:41 |
| RST38h | Again: would like an option to change your mind => do not use GPL | 19:41 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: under the veto model they can have all 1.2.3 using software removed from appup | 19:41 |
| RST38h | And this is both in GPL spirit and letter | 19:41 |
| berndhs | no, just copies provided by others | 19:41 |
| w00t_ | RST38h: nothing prevents relicensing away from GPL, assuming you hold all copyright or gain permission from all copyright holders | 19:41 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: yes, and they can obviously choose to remove their own copy | 19:41 |
| berndhs | this is about an App store, not a Lib store | 19:41 |
| w00t_ | so, GPL doesn't stop you changing your mind | 19:41 |
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| berndhs | they can stop selling their app yes | 19:42 |
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| berndhs | or stop giving it away on that one store | 19:42 |
| ali12341 | w00t_: it doesn't make the old copy no longer GPL | 19:42 |
| w00t_ | ali12341: correct | 19:42 |
| w00t_ | (the same is true of any other license) | 19:42 |
| berndhs | anyone can still get the app through other channels | 19:42 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: "on that one store" soon turns into "on all app stores" | 19:42 |
| berndhs | and if someone decides to stop giving their stuff away, why is that wrong ? | 19:43 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: because the GPL explicitly states that others may continue to do so | 19:43 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: and the veto explicitly takes away that right from others | 19:43 |
| berndhs | if you give away now or sell for $3, that doesnt give me a right to get it for the same conditions tomorrow | 19:44 |
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| berndhs | the veto is for that one store | 19:44 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: that one store may be the only way to obtain the software on certain devices | 19:44 |
| berndhs | why does the store have an obligation to let me sell a copy of your app ? | 19:44 |
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| berndhs | they buy other devices | 19:44 |
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| berndhs | s/they/then/ | 19:44 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: it has a moral obligation, but not a legal one | 19:44 |
| lbt | ali12341: "that veto" is like saying that I *must* sell your stuff in my yard-sale | 19:45 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: more of the "then don't use it" argument | 19:45 |
| lbt | (objecting to) | 19:45 |
| ali12341 | what has not been explained is why they have a moral obligation to honour the wishes of developers who used GPL? | 19:45 |
| berndhs | ali12341: right, same as the "dont user GPL" argument | 19:45 |
| lbt | BTW... is OBS OK now people? | 19:45 |
| * timoph checks | 19:46 | |
| ali12341 | they have no obligation to carry *any* software in their appstore | 19:46 |
| vasvlad_ | no I can't login | 19:46 |
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| berndhs | lbt: i can log in now | 19:46 |
| timoph | lbt: yep. works for me | 19:46 |
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| lbt | vasvlad_: try again... I'll watch | 19:46 |
| vasvlad_ | and me too | 19:47 |
| lbt | that worked | 19:47 |
| lbt | good | 19:47 |
| vasvlad_ | fine | 19:47 |
| lbt | :) | 19:47 |
| berndhs | excellent, I can now proceed with work so Ali can copy it and make $3 :P | 19:48 |
| lbt | berndhs: you can! :D | 19:49 |
| timoph | := | 19:49 |
| lbt | it's his moral right! | 19:49 |
| ali12341 | it certainly is :) | 19:49 |
| lbt | not if we conspire against you ;) | 19:50 |
| ali12341 | well yes | 19:50 |
| lbt | So, I think I need to think about both LGPL and GPL libs and multi-author apps | 19:51 |
| ali12341 | (17:44:51) berndhs: they buy other devices <- this isn't the same as the "don't use GPL" argument | 19:51 |
| lbt | also some sense of 'significant contribution' | 19:51 |
| ali12341 | because a GPL violation is a GPL violation regardless of if i buy it or not | 19:52 |
| ali12341 | otoh, if you don't use GPL in the first place, there can be no violation | 19:52 |
| berndhs | it is the same argument, in the sense of not being forced into the deal | 19:52 |
| ali12341 | it's not the same argument at all | 19:52 |
| berndhs | and lets face it, none of the end users need any of these apps | 19:52 |
| berndhs | these are phones and tablets, 95% of it is entertainment | 19:53 |
| ali12341 | so that makes it OK? | 19:53 |
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| berndhs | it makes it OK to say end-users dont need it for a certain price | 19:53 |
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| berndhs | they are not actually any worse off without it | 19:54 |
| ali12341 | the argument you are making is that it's fine to violate the GPL as long as you only distribute to people who don't care about the GPL | 19:54 |
| berndhs | no, there is no GPL violation | 19:55 |
| ali12341 | so i've got an idea, let's just make the appup store have a click thru agreement "you agree not to hold any developers to the GPL" | 19:55 |
| berndhs | only a deal between developers and a distributor | 19:55 |
| ali12341 | that way the developer isn't violating the GPL because they don't impose that condition | 19:55 |
| berndhs | all the source code will be published, and anyone can use it as they see fit | 19:55 |
| ali12341 | appup does | 19:55 |
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| berndhs | they jsut can't install the executable through appup | 19:56 |
| ali12341 | except they can't because the appup terms are discriminatory | 19:56 |
| berndhs | yes the appup terms discrimintate against plagiarists and thieves :) | 19:56 |
| berndhs | how terrible | 19:57 |
| lbt | *g* | 19:57 |
| ali12341 | if you think that rights holders under the GPL are "plagiarists and thieves" then you have no business using GPL at all | 19:57 |
| berndhs | that is backwards | 19:57 |
| berndhs | users are granted privileges by the GPL | 19:58 |
| ali12341 | if you have no business using the GPl then you think rights holders under the GPL are plagiarists and thieves? | 19:58 |
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| berndhs | people who copy and resell in direct competition to the original author are plagiarists yes | 19:58 |
| berndhs | pretending that it is their work | 19:58 |
| ali12341 | well no | 19:58 |
| berndhs | yes they are | 19:58 |
| ali12341 | because nobody said they would remove the original credits | 19:59 |
| berndhs | as if anybody looks at the credits | 19:59 |
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| berndhs | Bob will say "this is Alices program, buy it from Alice for $5 or from me for $3" ?? | 19:59 |
| ali12341 | yes | 19:59 |
| berndhs | no, Bob will say " this does waht Alices does" | 20:00 |
| ali12341 | i suppose you think centos project is nothing but plagiarists and thieves? | 20:00 |
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| berndhs | you are assuming those who copy are honest, and those who create are evil | 20:00 |
| berndhs | that is backwards | 20:00 |
| ali12341 | no, i am assuming that those who seek to take away rights are evil | 20:00 |
| ali12341 | and everyone else is simply neutral | 20:01 |
| RST38h | ali: No, no | 20:01 |
| berndhs | those who give away rights you mean | 20:01 |
| piggz | are any instllation images available for nonsse3 cpu's ? | 20:01 |
| RST38h | ali: They are brainless, no-good plagiarists and thieves! | 20:01 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: those who give away rights, and then try to go back on the deal, rather than simply not giving away those rights in the first palce | 20:01 |
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| berndhs | nobody is proposing going back on the deal | 20:01 |
| berndhs | just limiting through 1 specific distribution channel | 20:02 |
| RST38h | and what about the other channels? | 20:02 |
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| ali12341 | berndhs: the only reason it's "1 specific channel" is because it's the only channel that exists today | 20:02 |
| RST38h | will you have private discussions with each, making them allow you a veto? | 20:02 |
| jonnor | berndhs: so it has a limited scope. They are still going back on the deal in that scope | 20:02 |
| berndhs | AppIp doesnt exist today, there are no divices | 20:02 |
| RST38h | ali: You mean, you can no longer install from a repo, using zypper or something? | 20:02 |
| RST38h | berndhs <--- goood spotter! | 20:03 |
| berndhs | AppUp cannot prevent anyone from setting up their own repo | 20:03 |
| ali12341 | berndhs: and neither does the proposed veto :) | 20:03 |
| jonnor | RST38h: there is no guarantee that will be possible on a end-user Meego device | 20:03 |
| RST38h | Makes me wonder why nobody else has noticed it so far | 20:03 |
| jonnor | well, officially or enabled-by-default repos at least | 20:03 |
| lbt | piggz: ... I guess you don't mean ARM ;) | 20:03 |
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| * RST38h wants a special license that will let him distribute to a limited number of people he personally likes, with no redistribution and will also allow to withdraw the app if he stops liking the person =) | 20:05 | |
| timoph | :) | 20:05 |
| lbt | RST38h: that's a valid license ... feel free... not OSI though... mine is | 20:05 |
| RST38h | Wait, doesn't it sound like a blog for apps? =) | 20:05 |
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| lbt_away | bbl8r | 20:06 |
| timoph | o/ | 20:06 |
| berndhs | RST38h: sounds like software-as-a-service | 20:06 |
| RST38h | g'night lbt | 20:06 |
| RST38h | berndhs: true | 20:06 |
| piggz | lbt_away: no, i'd like ot run meego on me wifes celeron laptop | 20:06 |
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| lbt | piggz: currently there's no generic x86 port of MeeGo - we would all like to see it ... but it's all about time | 20:35 |
| piggz | lbt: gonna give opensuse smeegol a whirl | 20:35 |
| berndhs | piggz: is there a recent release of that ? | 20:37 |
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| piggz | berndhs: feb this year | 20:37 |
| piggz | berndhs: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Meego:/Netbook/images/iso/ is what i found | 20:38 |
| berndhs | ah thanks | 20:38 |
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| djszapi | Hi! Has anybody tried to install KDE on an Intel, exopc hardware ? | 23:38 |
| * andre__ wonders how this is a MeeGo question | 23:45 | |
| djszapi | there is a meego running on that and this gadget was distributed yesterday at the meego summit. | 23:45 |
| dm8tbr | maybe he wants to put kde on meego :) | 23:50 |
| djszapi | yup. | 23:50 |
| berndhs | why ? | 23:52 |
| djszapi | because I like KDE. | 23:53 |
| timoph | why not? | 23:53 |
| berndhs | but then why on meego ? run something else on the exopc | 23:55 |
| Venemo | what is an exopc? | 23:55 |
| timoph | last I checked the UX layer wasn't a part of MeeGo compliance so AFAIK MeeGo with KDE would be compliant | 23:55 |
| timoph | Venemo: it's a tablet | 23:56 |
| mikhas | it's a freebie | 23:56 |
| berndhs | isnt it the same hardware as WeTab ? | 23:56 |
| timoph | that too :) | 23:56 |
| djszapi | berndhs: nope. | 23:57 |
| berndhs | i thought I read that on a mailing list some time ago | 23:57 |
| djszapi | yeah, very very similar, but not the same :) | 23:57 |
| berndhs | what different ? they painted some buttons pink ? | 23:58 |
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| Myrtti | american/canadian brand vs. european brand | 23:58 |
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| Venemo | mhm | 23:59 |
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