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| TSCHAKeee | where would i submit a package like sdl_ttf? | 00:54 |
|---|---|---|
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| auke | TSCHAKeee: community obs? | 01:05 |
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| lcukn900 | oooh the internet is back. | 01:06 |
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| TSCHAKeee | auke: yes | 01:15 |
| lcukn900 | araujo, providing my internet even lasts this dl over 3g is slow. I would be quicker writing the binary out by hand lol | 01:15 |
| TSCHAKeee | auke: i just submitted it to meego:current:extras | 01:15 |
| TSCHAKeee | i have more, but i have to do them one at a time to make sure they resolve correctly. | 01:16 |
| TSCHAKeee | also, what is Kiwi Image Builds? | 01:16 |
| TSCHAKeee | oh nm | 01:17 |
| sivang | can somebody please try to access https://projects.forum.nokia.com/ | 01:17 |
| sivang | it is not responding for me | 01:17 |
| sivang | probably my crappy isp again | 01:17 |
| sivang | damn israeli ISPs who QoS on load | 01:17 |
| berndhs | works from here | 01:18 |
| lcukn900 | sivang uk internet has been crap all week. had people on the phone/sms most of the day instead | 01:18 |
| TSCHAKeee | works from here | 01:18 |
| araujo | lcukn900, ooh, how it goes? :( | 01:19 |
| sivang | lcukn900: I see, but FN is hosted in the us no? | 01:21 |
| sivang | US | 01:21 |
| lcukn900 | araujo, 5% after approx 30 mins! like I said earlier, I am phoning Virgin tomorrow and gonna see about fixing this. | 01:21 |
| sivang | lcukn900: actually access to my UK server has never been better | 01:21 |
| lcukn900 | sivang, not sure was thinking home internets | 01:21 |
| sivang | lcukn900: I am back onto my screen sessions | 01:21 |
| sivang | lcukn900: ah okay | 01:21 |
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| lcukn900 | araujo n900 in maemo heats up whilst downloading huge file just like reported idle bug | 01:22 |
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| lcukn900 | vme has toastie fingers | 01:23 |
| * araujo fixing usb networking right now | 01:23 | |
| araujo | lcukn900, I believe you ... | 01:23 |
| araujo | :P | 01:23 |
| lcukn900 | whats up with it? | 01:23 |
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| sivang | berndhs: can you retry? | 01:25 |
| berndhs | still working | 01:26 |
| sivang | berndhs: unbeliveable. I am getting unexpected error in pure black small tet | 01:26 |
| sivang | text | 01:26 |
| sivang | on the web page | 01:26 |
| sivang | oh I can access it now | 01:26 |
| sivang | how odd | 01:26 |
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| berndhs | lynx says it has an invalid cookie | 01:27 |
| sivang | well, it did not reply for me before | 01:27 |
| sivang | only then did I see the invalid cookie | 01:27 |
| berndhs | looks normal here | 01:27 |
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| sivang | yes | 01:28 |
| sivang | very slow for me, but this is my isp | 01:28 |
| araujo | lcukn900, it seems that now I need to manually up the interfaces.... | 01:28 |
| araujo | lcukn900, it was working automatically before.... | 01:28 |
| araujo | lcukn900, https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12301 | 01:30 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug 12301 maj, High, ---, kangkai.yin, NEW, USB networking is not working | 01:30 |
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| CosmoHill | night night | 01:52 |
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| ieatlint | general quick question -- for building a qt application for meego to run on a netbook (x86), can i use a non-meego linux environment? | 02:42 |
| ieatlint | or is there some sort of special foo the meego sdk throws in... | 02:43 |
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| nillerz | hello | 02:50 |
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| nillerz | If I did a bit-copy to an existing partition in my hard drive, that would install the cd to that partition, right? | 02:57 |
| nillerz | would that nullify the need to burn a CD? | 02:57 |
| nillerz | or would that not work? | 02:57 |
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| wmarone | I don't believe that would work | 03:02 |
| berndhs | i think the image files are disk images, not partition images | 03:02 |
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| nillerz | dang | 03:04 |
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| berndhs | yeah :) | 03:05 |
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| nillerz | so I'm using dd to copy meego.img to my usb drive, is it supposed to not give any feedback until it's done doing the task? | 03:35 |
| araujo | right nillerz | 03:36 |
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| nillerz | ok cool. | 03:36 |
| nillerz | the Meego installer has a partition manager, right? | 03:37 |
| andyross | nillerz: "killall -USR1 dd" will get it to spit status to stdout | 03:37 |
| nillerz | stdout? | 03:38 |
| nillerz | oh cool done... | 03:39 |
| nillerz | I'll be back | 03:39 |
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| andyross | Sorry, standard output. But that's wrong, it actually emits to stderr :) | 03:39 |
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| nillerz | It totally didn't work. | 03:42 |
| nillerz | I tried 3 times to boot from USB and it skipped it each time, went straight to the grub menu | 03:43 |
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| nillerz | hrm. | 03:48 |
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| Extends_ | hi guys, I need some help. I added "translations = translations | 04:21 |
| Extends_ | DEPLOYMENTFOLDERS = translations" and my *.pro file and when a use qmake && make . I get "cp: cannot copy a directory, `/home/test/Projects/Developer/Qt/Test/trunk/', into itself, `/home/test/Projects/Developer/Qt/Test/trunk/trunk' | 04:21 |
| Extends_ | make: *** [copydeploymentfolders] Error 1" . Any idea ? thanks | 04:21 |
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| nillerz | I tested that USB I made in another pc | 04:23 |
| nillerz | and it worked | 04:23 |
| nillerz | I have booted from usb from the one it wont boot on in the past, in fact, earlier today | 04:24 |
| nillerz | HRM. | 04:24 |
| nillerz | by the way this is the quietest channel with 460 people in it I've ever seen | 04:26 |
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| nillerz | the live USB just froze.. | 04:34 |
| nillerz | importing about 30 gigs of music in Banshee just to test. | 04:34 |
| nillerz | this channel, however, does not care. | 04:34 |
| nillerz | oh well | 04:34 |
| nillerz | bye | 04:34 |
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| JunJi | anybody using applauncherd(booster things)?? | 04:57 |
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| thresh | so, nokia failed meego? | 09:08 |
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| c|oneman | ;( I want to be nokia fanboi again | 09:09 |
| c|oneman | but its becomeing impossibleeeeee | 09:09 |
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| Stskeeps | thresh: we're still at work, so no? also, don't read too many rumours, they rot your mind :) | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | especially when it's been parsed and reiterated several times | 09:12 |
| thresh | :) | 09:13 |
| raster | st ahh the rumor mill and speculation | 09:13 |
| raster | isnt it fun how it spins out of control so fast :) | 09:13 |
| thresh | its not really | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | raster: i vote we start a rumor that nokia switches to bada + efl | 09:13 |
| thresh | as it actually shows problems | 09:13 |
| raster | hahahaha | 09:14 |
| raster | nah | 09:14 |
| raster | nokia switches to windowsME | 09:14 |
| raster | :) | 09:14 |
| jnwi | No, MeeGo is late because it wasn't fast enough so it's going to be redone using gentoo | 09:14 |
| thresh | hehe | 09:14 |
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| jnwi | When you boot up the device for the first time, you enter your name, Ovi account and optimization level | 09:15 |
| hena | more funroll-loops! | 09:15 |
| timoph | no. they'll base everything on dos 6.22 | 09:16 |
| jnwi | ah, closer to the hardware | 09:16 |
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| raster | jnwi: hahahah! meego needs more funrolls! :) | 09:18 |
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| Stskeeps | or rickrolls | 09:18 |
| c|oneman | what about winlinux 2001 | 09:19 |
| c|oneman | thats a good choice | 09:19 |
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| raster | vax/vms | 09:20 |
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| TSCHAKeee | MeeGo, now running on an ITS KS10 near you. | 09:26 |
| JunJi | anybody using applauncherd(booster things)?? | 09:28 |
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| JunJi | I'm wondering if an application is supposed to run by 'invoke' or it's just be 'READY' or something | 09:29 |
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| Stskeeps | REMINDER: nokia n900 hardware adaptation meeting in 30 minutes in #meego-meeting | 09:31 |
| Stskeeps | JunJi: check duicontrolpanel / readme.txt of applauncherd | 09:31 |
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| JunJi | Surely did, but it looks like dated. (it's talking about libraries in /usr/lib/applaucherd but there is no libs in the latest.) | 09:33 |
| Stskeeps | ah, well, the pkgconfig stuff should be what matters | 09:33 |
| JunJi | I'm looking at the code. will try more | 09:33 |
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| JunJi | hmm.. | 09:33 |
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| JunJi | if the pkgconfig could be 'CONFIG += ...' of .pro file, I agree. It seems the meegotouch-boostable isn't avaiable now. | 09:35 |
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| niala1 | ning | 09:41 |
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| Stskeeps | REMINDER: nokia n900 hardware adaptation meeting in 1 minutes in #meego-meeting | 10:00 |
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| Termana | morning | 10:12 |
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| raochet | fiouas72.ebgroup.elektrobit.com | 10:26 |
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| asifsardar85 | hi | 10:31 |
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| asifsardar85 | is there anyone who could help me with meego toolbar panel | 10:31 |
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| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: did you really say what he claims you said? http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=940740&postcount=4 | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: well, that was what he chose to interpret it as | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: in truth it just shows that people don't understand the bureaucracy that goes on in any distro | 11:18 |
| lbt | igo: pong | 11:19 |
| arfoll | I think it's simply more evidant because the bureaucracy is fairly transparent not ala gogle | 11:19 |
| johnx | probably the first time he's heard of software projects having test suites | 11:20 |
| Stskeeps | what arfoll said.. i mean, most of the stuff in meego is typical release process and QA, when you want to build a quality product | 11:21 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: ok | 11:21 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: so you didn't say not to touch it with an 5m stick :D | 11:22 |
| Stskeeps | http://en.opensuse.org/File:OpenFATE_feature_handling_flow.png - opensuse | 11:22 |
| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: of course not | 11:22 |
| Venemo_N900 | :) | 11:22 |
| * lbt likes opensuse a little more now... | 11:26 | |
| lbt | (although pointing at that diagram to identify a bug in the svg/png rendering of something somewhere would be funny - floating yes/no) | 11:27 |
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| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=940753&postcount=5 | 11:34 |
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| arfoll | Stskeeps, you'll have to reference if you quote me ;-) | 11:36 |
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| Stskeeps | done | 11:37 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:37 |
| arfoll | lol | 11:38 |
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| korgoth | hello guys | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | morn | 11:40 |
| korgoth | whats this shit i read in the news - nokia giving up on meego devices? | 11:40 |
| arfoll | korgoth, you like reading IRC logs? | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | korgoth: rumours reparsed and reiterated until they claim nokia wants to go back to tires | 11:40 |
| korgoth | arfoll: its not one of my fav things to do, but if the information there will be helpful and reliable i will | 11:41 |
| arfoll | korgoth, won't be reliable | 11:41 |
| arfoll | it's rumours wait for friday | 11:41 |
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| korgoth | i will i will :-) | 11:42 |
| korgoth | nokia + win phone 7 is also only rumours i hope? | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | we work with meego.com, what do we know? | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | anything not on a nokia press release is probably rumours :) | 11:42 |
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| korgoth | :) | 11:44 |
| korgoth | ok then, any rumours about nokia + android? | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | go view talk.maemo.org, plenty there | 11:45 |
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| lupine_85 | http://www.rcrwireless.com/article/20110209/DEVICES/110209944/0 etc? | 11:46 |
| Stskeeps | in about 24 hours we should all know how screwed we are, so | 11:47 |
| korgoth | :) | 11:47 |
| korgoth | i guess the news will be loudly announced here no matter what | 11:47 |
| FunkyPenguin | Stskeeps, you sound a bit too positive ;) | 11:48 |
| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: about? bureaucracy? | 11:49 |
| johnx | I sense sarcasm :) | 11:50 |
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| jeremiah | lbt: Thanks for getting back to me - I think I have things sorted. | 11:51 |
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| jeremiah | lbt: We're trying to get a login to the MeeGo OBS mothership | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: i thought you had one already? | 11:52 |
| jeremiah | I have one, we need another | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 11:52 |
| jeremiah | We're building a local OBS that we want to sync with MeeGo | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | you don't need a login for that as such, just obs linking | 11:53 |
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| KevinB | hi everyone | 11:53 |
| KevinB | where is the nokia troll chan? | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | KevinB: #meego-bar maybe, start a fight | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:53 |
| KevinB | :p | 11:53 |
| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Oh, okay. I'll see if I can't dig up that document | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: at least obs linking is available and works | 11:54 |
| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Fantastic, that is good to hear. =) | 11:54 |
| FunkyPenguin | Stskeeps, mostly the rumours. scuttle butt is a great way to badly damage a perfectly good ship | 11:55 |
| FunkyPenguin | dont getme wrong im not saying things a rosey but... | 11:55 |
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| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: ah - i do agree meego isn't proceeding as fast as it could and there's many reasons for this, but it would be suicidal to switch to WP7 (intense delays), drop MeeGo (and use Symbian, are you high?), .. there's really no logical conclusion than to restructure the nokia machine to a meego reality | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | in the meantime we have to deal with crap rumours like "According to the same source, when the Finnish giant ran a build of MeeGo on it, the results were highly unsatisfactory, in fact, the system crashed "all the time". When they loaded Microsoft's latest smartphone operating system, the handset was working fine." | 11:58 |
| KevinB | ... what s that rumors? anyway wp7 gives hardwares contraints | 11:59 |
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| KevinB | I guess the goal in all this is to get crying shareholders re-assured | 12:00 |
| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: let's pretend the smeegol stuff didn't happen, what issues do you see in meego? as in, meego core + verticals/aims | 12:00 |
| Stskeeps | just curious about your view :) | 12:01 |
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| FunkyPenguin | Stskeeps, thats a tough one | 12:02 |
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| FunkyPenguin | part of the issue is the shotgun approach - meego wants to be in every vertical | 12:02 |
| FunkyPenguin | so the resources are too thinky spread | 12:02 |
| FunkyPenguin | err thinly even | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | right, having had qt components early on would have helped issues a great deal | 12:03 |
| Stskeeps | the whole mtf/mx stuff just confused stuff | 12:03 |
| Stskeeps | so there was more synergy on core | 12:04 |
| FunkyPenguin | yeah, the plan they had for maemo (as i understood it) made sense | 12:04 |
| FunkyPenguin | have a realease or two with transitioning from gtk to qt | 12:04 |
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| Stskeeps | my angle was that we built a organisation + processes while at same time trying to deliver a release, so people were flailing around in the dark | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | the process and organisation is mostly there now, but the delay caused is obvious | 12:05 |
| FunkyPenguin | my other issue is why build a distro from scratch? using another distro as the base and building ontop of it would have expedited things | 12:06 |
| FunkyPenguin | and also shown how well they can work in the community | 12:06 |
| Stskeeps | well we didn't, moblin was base | 12:06 |
| FunkyPenguin | ah but moblin was a distro built from pieces of others - ubuntu/fedora/opensuse | 12:07 |
| FunkyPenguin | picking one and going with it would have been much better | 12:07 |
| FunkyPenguin | dont get me wrong - im not trying to critisise or anything | 12:07 |
| FunkyPenguin | things were done and at the time made sense to someone | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | actually i do want you to (constructively) critisise :) | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | otoh, i kinda like the current result - we have a lean and mean stack | 12:08 |
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| FunkyPenguin | heh | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | it's very nice to port and there's a reason for every package to be there | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | (mostly) | 12:08 |
| FunkyPenguin | ok, there is another issue i noticed | 12:08 |
| FunkyPenguin | moblin had a pretty small community around it - mostly partners but there were some community folk | 12:09 |
| FunkyPenguin | things were pretty open (or at least from my pov) | 12:09 |
| FunkyPenguin | they worked differently, more like a traditional distro or upstream gnome | 12:10 |
| FunkyPenguin | mainly because a lot of the guys were upstream gnome devs | 12:10 |
| FunkyPenguin | maemo, had a huge community but with very few partners | 12:11 |
| FunkyPenguin | maemo didnt seem to have consumer appeal - devs/hackers liked the device | 12:11 |
| FunkyPenguin | problem is it was a geek's device | 12:12 |
| FunkyPenguin | and Nokia marketed it as such, not mass market | 12:12 |
| Stskeeps | right, looking for the connection with meego :) | 12:12 |
| FunkyPenguin | when meego came about, the moblin community were drowned by the maemo community | 12:13 |
| FunkyPenguin | the noise to signal ratio went through the roof | 12:13 |
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| FunkyPenguin | as a result the few community folk from moblin switched off | 12:13 |
| Stskeeps | well, we do see some of them around still (slaine, etc) | 12:14 |
| FunkyPenguin | also the devs from moblin seemed to have gone silent | 12:14 |
| FunkyPenguin | yes, not all left | 12:14 |
| FunkyPenguin | the other issue is the hugely conflicting/confusing message/vision | 12:14 |
| FunkyPenguin | it often seems like meego is chasing its own tail and just going round in circles | 12:15 |
| Stskeeps | the merge wasn't too pretty.. from maemo community (which really consists of many different types of groups) side, developers didn't really have a room as we didn't have a SDK, platform hackers had a ball, community people were upset due to the organisation that focused on execution for platform, not for end-users | 12:15 |
| Stskeeps | as well as the bloody personality split between meego being for end users vs a platform | 12:16 |
| FunkyPenguin | basically, no-one really understood what meego was | 12:16 |
| FunkyPenguin | when the platforms were seperate it made sense, maybe not the correct one but at least people knew what each meant | 12:17 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 12:17 |
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| FunkyPenguin | in an ideal world, meego would have been an independant environment, like gnome or kde | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | well, that's the UX'es | 12:18 |
| alterego | Maybe someone should create a foss meego instance | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | the stack is really what matters in long term | 12:18 |
| alterego | Something that tries to target end users. | 12:19 |
| FunkyPenguin | yeah but there isnt a cohesive movement to concentrate on the UX | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | alterego: i have occasionally thought about that | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | alterego: bring back Mer, etc | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:19 |
| FunkyPenguin | too much effort is spent selling Core | 12:19 |
| FunkyPenguin | no-one cares about core | 12:19 |
| alterego | Yeah, but then, you'd home that we could make a decent enough handset UX as to make it user friendly? | 12:19 |
| arfoll | no, the maemo community doesn't care about core | 12:19 |
| FunkyPenguin | the benefits of meego-core vs fedora/opensuse/ubuntu are almost non-existant | 12:20 |
| alterego | s/home/hope/ | 12:20 |
| infobot | alterego meant: Yeah, but then, you'd hope that we could make a decent enough handset UX as to make it user friendly? | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: well, that's where i would disagree, but that discussion is better over a beer | 12:20 |
| FunkyPenguin | also the other bug bear is the number of forked packages in the UX | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: (meego-core vs fedora/opensuse/ubuntu) | 12:20 |
| FunkyPenguin | Stskeeps, any discussion over a beer is a good one ;) | 12:20 |
| alterego | I think we need to put a lot more work into the handset UX, it's the black spot in MeeGo, but also one of the most important instances. | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | i've tried to adapt ubuntu on to n8x0-n900 like devices and i can tell you, there's good reasons for meego-core being like it is at places :) | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | if it wasn't, we'd have seen proper mobile deployments of those already | 12:21 |
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| alterego | The netbook ux for instance is pretty refined, and seems nice. Why is the handset UX such a dog? :D | 12:22 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: so what's the advantage of meego core compared to fedora core? | 12:22 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: or, better question | 12:22 |
| arfoll | alterego, if you use a moblin 2.1 image you'll realise quickly no one has worked on it for a while | 12:22 |
| FunkyPenguin | dont get me wrong, im not saying it was pointless, but this is where working with upstream - properly- would have worked better | 12:22 |
| RST38h | alterego: Because Moblin had no handset UX? =) | 12:22 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: why does it take less effort to build meego core on scratch instead of basing on top of fedora core? | 12:22 |
| FunkyPenguin | RST38h, thats the point - moblin wasnt designed or aimed at handsets | 12:23 |
| arfoll | it just happens to be the least worst of the UXs. Intel + nokia don't care too much for the UX, they want to provide a good core so people can build devices with their own look 'n' feel ala weetab | 12:23 |
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| arfoll | FunkyPenguin, not true, moorestown phones shipped to devs with moblin | 12:23 |
| RST38h | Funky: Thank you, Cpt Obvious | 12:23 |
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| FunkyPenguin | :) | 12:23 |
| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: in truth, meego has a lot of fedora core stuff in it - but it's shaped to work on mobile devices - you can't reuse desktop/server things too easily there | 12:23 |
| alterego | I thought the reference UX was supposed to be customisable by ISVs | 12:23 |
| johnx | FunkyPenguin, upstream's goal in most cases is to ship a desktop or server distro. If something takes an extra 10MB of RAM or 30MB of disk space or if it keeps the CPU awake, it's not a huge deal | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | or increases startup time.. | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | or drags in mysql. | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:24 |
| alterego | Which is already a problem. | 12:24 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: so why not contribute all this work back to fc? | 12:24 |
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| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: because chances are that you'll need a hell lot of ifdefs for mobile usage :) | 12:25 |
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| Stskeeps | 'ifdefs' as in, you'll end up with something looking like meego core anyway and people upset their server distro doesn't work as intended anymore | 12:25 |
| alterego | Oo, HP web os tablets | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | and you don't want to upset old sysadmins | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: so if by chance someone from fedora community would want to use fedora on a tablet, they would need this work anyway | 12:26 |
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| * FunkyPenguin goes to do some work | 12:26 | |
| Stskeeps | yes, as witnessed by Mer and many other attempts | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | FunkyPenguin: tty | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | l | 12:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | Stskeeps: fedora is not a server distro. although it can be used as such | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | Venemo_N900: still | 12:26 |
| arfoll | isn't fedora just a testground for RHEL? | 12:27 |
| Stskeeps | there's also the stuff about making commercial deployment easier in meego | 12:27 |
| Venemo_N900 | arfoll: not really. read their mission statement | 12:27 |
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| johnx | Venemo_N900, but it has desktop-oriented goals, such as providing all the features they can | 12:28 |
| arfoll | Venemo_N900, it was tongue in cheek | 12:28 |
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| alterego | Also, meego core needs to be meego to maintain the security from possibly prosecution? | 12:28 |
| alterego | patents and the like. | 12:29 |
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| johnx | so basically, changing a desktop distro to work optimally on a phone would require some seriously invasive work, and at the same time likely have a negative effect on the desktop users in at least the short-to-medium term (bugs introduced while splitting or optimizing packages) | 12:31 |
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| johnx | for it to get anywhere you'd have to have full cooperation with the people involved in planning releases of that distro, and even then there's a pretty clear conflict of interest in a lot of cases | 12:32 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Well, to begin with, the kernel stuff mostly stays unchanged | 12:33 |
| RST38h | johnx: Compilation options change of course, many modules are dropped, but it is still the same kernel | 12:33 |
| johnx | RST38h, true. it stays unchanged because the phones and the desktop would use different ones anyways :) | 12:33 |
| johnx | and they'd probably even track a slightly different release | 12:33 |
| slaine | kinda late to this conversation | 12:34 |
| RST38h | johnx: Possibly, but does not have to be so. | 12:34 |
| slaine | You're probably all spent now ;) | 12:34 |
| slaine | couple of things | 12:34 |
| johnx | RST38h, no. it doesn't *have* to be, but I could definitely see situations where it's likely to be | 12:34 |
| RST38h | johnx: If you are making a consumer device, you definitely want something -stable rather than -mad-penguins | 12:34 |
| RST38h | johnx: But what changes is the desktop | 12:35 |
| RST38h | johnx:Anything above command line will be completley different | 12:35 |
| johnx | as well as some of the libs | 12:35 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Now, if you are willing to call all this high-level stuff "an OS", that is ok | 12:35 |
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| johnx | compile libfoo without libbar support to save 600K at the cost of printing support or somesuch | 12:35 |
| RST38h | johnx: But to me, it is pretty much the same OS, with a different desktop | 12:35 |
| slaine | 1) There was very little in the way of a Moblin community in fairness FunkyPenguin. Yourself, arfoll one or two others who's nicks I can't spell and myself where probably the most active ones and we're still here. There where a few guys that tried to adapt it to some company projects (that's how I got interested) but ultimately there wasn't much | 12:35 |
| RST38h | johnx: to me, what you are saying sounds more like not including certian packages | 12:36 |
| johnx | RST38h, this is going to end up with you recommending a more BSD approach, isn't it? | 12:36 |
| RST38h | johnx: there won't be many cases where you will have to cull libraries | 12:36 |
| slaine | The majority of questions we got about "moblin" were realted to the Ubunutu moblin remix and how to do stuff on Ubuntu | 12:36 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Not sure what BSD approach is here | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | the more interesting discussion is obviously why meego didn't use gentoo ;p | 12:37 |
| RST38h | johnx: In terms of organization, BSD is pretty much the same as Linux | 12:37 |
| johnx | RST38h, a more clear separation of OS and 'packages' | 12:37 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Because Gentoo fans at Intel have not been able to demonstrate a single functioning install of Gentoo to the management? :) | 12:38 |
| RST38h | johnx: Debian separates them just fine | 12:38 |
| arfoll | slaine, I think where it went wrong was when the merge happened and nokia made all the maemo guys believe they'd have a new device/platform like maemo | 12:38 |
| johnx | RST38h, sure, but that will change release-to-release | 12:38 |
| RST38h | johnx: Not sure about Redhat (had some really bad experiences with Centos) | 12:38 |
| slaine | 2) I can't see how you thought Moblin was open and community focused as a project. I found it to be the complete opposite as did most of the people I talked to on IRC early on when it was announced. They eventually drifted off as nothing really seemed to change. One or too came back when MeeGo came along but then disappeared soon after. I found dealing with upstream Moblin like shouting into an abyss. There was too much attention given to hardware partners an | 12:38 |
| slaine | nothing released to the community | 12:38 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, the more interesting question I'd have is actually about OE, but I'll buy you a beer to hear your thoughts on that :) | 12:39 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx: saw yocto? | 12:39 |
| RST38h | johnx: But anyway, I am not sure what is all this obsession with the choice of the core OS is about | 12:39 |
| arfoll | slaine, i think moblin in the community was more of an accident than a vision | 12:40 |
| RST38h | johnx: You should be able to compile your desktop/services stuff on any OS that provides you with POSIX and Qt | 12:40 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, apparently I have since my browser says that I visited their site before ... will read (again I guess) | 12:40 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Meego, Redhat, Debian, or FreeBSD, who cares? | 12:40 |
| johnx | RST38h, uhm, yes? I don't think I was disagreeing with that :) | 12:41 |
| johnx | I could if you'd like :D | 12:41 |
| slaine | 3) Moblin DID have a handset UX, it was called Moblin for MIDS and it looked pretty good (clearly and inspiration for the current meego handset ux, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-aAC5ofAeQ&feature=related) Unfortunately it was never relaesed and I've asked to get my hands on it a few times | 12:41 |
| RST38h | johnx: If somebody is have paranoid thoughts about Meego, for example, they should be able to take their favorite OSS OS and use that | 12:41 |
| slaine | arfoll: Yes, at the time I blogged that I thought the maemo guys came out the worst in what they lost | 12:42 |
| johnx | RST38h, yeah, with the understanding that they might lose some specific optimization patches unless they add those in by hand | 12:42 |
| RST38h | johnx: You weren't, but a lot of people here and especially on tmo are pretty religious about the choice of the core OS, for no apparent reason | 12:42 |
| RST38h | johnx: When using a resource-constrained device, you have to optimize anyway | 12:42 |
| arfoll | slaine, that UI never worked properly I think, as aava shipped the first aava phones with XFCE | 12:42 |
| arfoll | slaine, correction - intel shipped | 12:42 |
| johnx | RST38h, aaah, ok. I think I thought you were disagreeing with me earlier ... | 12:43 |
| slaine | and as for the community being an accident, your spot on. It was a necessary evil to try and establish relationships with ODMs | 12:43 |
| RST38h | johnx: nah, just explaining my view of the issue, especially after your commend about BSD :) | 12:43 |
| slaine | arfoll: Probably didn't work, but what better way to make it work that open the project for contributions | 12:43 |
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| arfoll | I think the intel view was that partners would never want a stock UI so there was no point in wasting dev time on it, it was for demos only to interest ODMS | 12:44 |
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| RST38h | arfoll: Are you an Intel employee? Is it an official view? | 12:45 |
| arfoll | RST38h, hell no to both | 12:45 |
| RST38h | arfoll: Then why trying to second-guess them? | 12:45 |
| arfoll | i guess intel would disagree strongly on those points | 12:45 |
| slaine | arfoll: I doubt they would | 12:46 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, WRT Yocto, I heard of them first when they kinda-forked angstrom to make poky and they were called openhand | 12:46 |
| slaine | They stated all along that the point of the UX's was to give a reference to ODM's | 12:46 |
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| arfoll | slaine, i've never heard it directly | 12:47 |
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| Venemo_N900 | this reminds me of something I wanted to ask | 12:48 |
| arfoll | anwyays all this crying about no UXs, i've got openbox on OBS, what more do people want? | 12:49 |
| Venemo_N900 | in what regards is MeeGo | 12:49 |
| johnx | arfoll, windowmaker | 12:49 |
| RST38h | johnx: +1 | 12:49 |
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| johnx | RST38h, dockapps.org is still alive :) | 12:49 |
| Venemo_N900 | in what regards is MeeGo any better than Angstrom or OpenEmbedded or any other embedded linux distro? | 12:49 |
| RST38h | johnx: An iPhone with the original NeXTstep UI! =) | 12:49 |
| arfoll | johnx, argh you're one of those! | 12:49 |
| arfoll | Venemo_N900, build system | 12:50 |
| arfoll | and the fact it's not embedded | 12:50 |
| lindi- | johnx: I use wmaker too :) | 12:50 |
| lindi- | johnx: but on touchscreen I use icewm since wmaker wasn't really easy to use without keyboard | 12:50 |
| Venemo_N900 | arfoll: why not? | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | if you like afterstep, wetab seems like a candidate.. | 12:50 |
| johnx | lindi-, yeah. at the very least we'd need a patch for 'single-click-to launch' for the dock | 12:51 |
| arfoll | Venemo_N900, it has most things a classical linux for desktop likes, means dev is much faster, there are packages... | 12:51 |
| arfoll | s/likes/ | 12:52 |
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| arfoll | slaine, just read - http://slaine.org/_slaine/Blog/Entries/2010/2/16_Meego_Revisited.html | 12:57 |
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| arfoll | very much my view | 12:57 |
| vasvlad | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKFZWZrn-5w | 12:57 |
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| vasvlad | Omweather on Meego NetbookUX | 12:57 |
| joppu | any way to run current builds on QEMU? | 12:58 |
| joppu | the SDK only has version 1.1.2 | 12:58 |
| johnx | vasvlad, looks nice. Was the 'type-ahead find' for the text boxes maemo-specific? | 12:59 |
| Stskeeps | joppu: i thought the qemu images are built each time a release made | 12:59 |
| joppu | yes, but I used the fancy wizard that came with the SDK to download the image | 12:59 |
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| arfoll | does anyone know why in meego > 1.1 when entering mode3 networking is down? | 13:01 |
| vasvlad | johnx, what did you mean? Settings window? | 13:01 |
| johnx | vasvlad, yeah. On the N900 you can start to type your country and it will auto-complete it for you | 13:02 |
| johnx | anyways, sleeping for real now :) | 13:02 |
| vasvlad | johnx, yes it works in settings window on Meego too | 13:03 |
| vasvlad | johnx, can you test Omweather on your device? | 13:04 |
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| joppu | Stskeeps: nvm, found the latest QEMU build | 13:05 |
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| Stskeeps | good | 13:06 |
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| slaine | arfoll: lol, almost a year to the day since I wrote that | 13:19 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, meego birthday coming up | 13:19 |
| slaine | was pretty spot on, even if it did ruffle a few feathers. | 13:19 |
| arfoll | slaine, someone had to say it. I still remember the emails i got when I said look heres moblin 2.2 and wait its got meego all over it | 13:20 |
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| foolano | hi guys. I'm working on my first test app for MeeGo and have a lot of doubts. i'm using QML to display fancy effects and stuff. I'm wondering if I need to show a dialog window - something like "foobar" text, and accept and cancel buttons- do i need to create that dialog from scratch or there are any kind of common components/widgets that need to be used to provide a smooth UX along the apps? | 13:38 |
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| Aard | foolano: there will be, there are not right now | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | foolano: i believe qt components is what you'll be looking for | 13:38 |
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| foolano | thx, gonna take a look at qtcomponents | 13:39 |
| Aard | foolano: you can play with this one http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-components -- though this won't be the version making it into meego, so you'll most likely have to adjust your code later | 13:40 |
| foolano | Aard: cheers | 13:40 |
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| foolano | QML is fun but I was missing a sort of standard way of implementing/using components | 13:40 |
| Aard | you're too early trying that with meego ;) | 13:41 |
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| foolano | :) | 13:41 |
| foolano | may i ask when should we expect a prod release of those components? | 13:42 |
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| Aard | can't say. I'd expect it to be show up in 1.3 | 13:43 |
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| foolano | Aard: fair enough, thx for the info :) | 13:45 |
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| dominikb | not true, i hope: http://www.domain-b.com/industry/telecom/20110210_meego.html | 13:52 |
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| Stskeeps | dominikb: rumours | 13:53 |
| dominikb | Stskeeps: i really hope so. | 13:54 |
| dominikb | Stskeeps: tomorrow we'll all be a lot wiser. | 13:54 |
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| alterego | dominikb: you need this to be more wise? Get a life! :D | 13:59 |
| alterego | It's amazing how seriously people take this stuff :) | 14:00 |
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| alterego | Like their lives depend on it or something | 14:00 |
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| alterego | If Nokia move to WP7 and Android, well, they lose me as a customer and developer. | 14:01 |
| alterego | Until MeeGo appears of course. | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | and a boatload of talent | 14:01 |
| alterego | Heh, they're not going to give up on MeeGo, I can't see that happening. | 14:01 |
| alterego | If anything I'd have thought they'd go Web OS over Android :/ | 14:02 |
| alterego | It's a lot like MeeGo, more mature and is inline with MeeGo, but even that seems ridiculous to me. | 14:02 |
| alterego | On the other hand, I still see Elop as a crazy American, but obviously I'm bias toward open source, etc. His loyalties are with stock holders. | 14:03 |
| dominikb | alterego: we'll see. life does not depend on it, but i have fallen in love with maemo+qt+pyside. isn't it natural to fear such a loss? ;) ähm, i really should get a life *bg* | 14:03 |
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| alterego | dominikb: MeeGo will not cease to exist if Nokia choose something else. | 14:04 |
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| alterego | They just want something to close the gap in their market share for the short term. | 14:04 |
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| disperso | to me, if nokia drops meego and/or open source ways of doing stuff, is quite a pity | 14:04 |
| alterego | Yes, yes it is. | 14:05 |
| disperso | after sun wass bought by oracle, not much open source friendly companies do good stuff | 14:05 |
| pinchartl | alterego: that's what puzzles me. if they decide to go for android or win7, it won't be short term. a non-negligeable development effort will be required | 14:05 |
| alterego | Well, that's not true :P | 14:05 |
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| alterego | pinchartl: yes, well, this is all rumour. | 14:05 |
| TuOki^ | tomorrow we shall know | 14:05 |
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| alterego | For all we know he could be announcing the complete drop of support for Symbian and the complete migration to MeeGo and Series 40 :D | 14:06 |
| pinchartl | I'll know tomorrow if I need to update my CV :-) | 14:06 |
| TuOki^ | 9.30 in finnish time there will be cmd announce | 14:06 |
| TuOki^ | so checking that out we know what are the plans | 14:06 |
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| disperso | i can't wait for tomorrow | 14:07 |
| alterego | Oh, now you're excited? :D | 14:07 |
| av500 | alterego: complete drop of symbian is not possible | 14:07 |
| alterego | av500: anything is "possible". Also, everything seems unlikely. | 14:08 |
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| disperso | i'm worried, truly, i don't known if i'm a stupid for being worried of the future of a company that i don't even work for, but as a consumer and developer | 14:08 |
| alterego | Though I guess looking at recent rumours, drop of Harmatten/MeeGo, drop of the N9 prototype. | 14:08 |
| Stskeeps | av500: out of curiousity, why not? if low range is moving towards armv7 too | 14:08 |
| alterego | Maybe Elop is just trying to get the Sympathy vote. :D | 14:09 |
| aholler | if the choose win7 or android, than they can give up their business too. ;) | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | 'Thanked 6,009 Times in 821 Posts' | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | jesus | 14:10 |
| av500 | Stskeeps: long term for sure, as in 3rd world pax moving up to a smart phone | 14:10 |
| TuOki^ | i have invested 21 % of my stock portfolio to Nokia so i am little bit scary..because i am Qt fanboy and if there comes somekind stupid android + windows stuff.. | 14:10 |
| pinchartl | Stskeeps: I don't see the <5EUR range moving to armv7 before a couple of years :-) | 14:10 |
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| pinchartl | s/5/50/ | 14:10 |
| infobot | pinchartl meant: Stskeeps: I don't see the <50EUR range moving to armv7 before a couple of years :-) | 14:10 |
| av500 | TuOki^: as a stock holder, you dont care about qt, you care about profit, no? | 14:11 |
| Stskeeps | occasionally it'd be nice to know what the various SoC's actually cost | 14:11 |
| TuOki^ | i care future of company and future is Qt | 14:11 |
| av500 | TuOki^: if you say so :) | 14:11 |
| TuOki^ | ;) | 14:11 |
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| alterego | I'm sure Elop has thought long and hard about the benifits of using another development platform over the benifits of using Qt, which, is great and is already out in devices. | 14:12 |
| Stskeeps | and that your staff is already trained in/getting trained in.. | 14:12 |
| TuOki^ | i think that best thing what Nokia did in couple years was buying Trolltech ..and they did not even pay much | 14:12 |
| alterego | He obviously has more insight, but I can't see them dropping Qt for something like Android. | 14:12 |
| zutesmog | Hey, has anyone here looked at trying to run up Meego in the Zenithin ZT-180A http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10-2-ePad-ZT-180-Google-ANDROID-2-2-Tablet-PC-CASE-/330524585926?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4cf4ccefc6#ht_8976wt_1074 | 14:13 |
| alterego | Because it just doesn't work on their mid end devices' hardware. | 14:13 |
| av500 | zutesmog: ouch, my eyes hurt now | 14:13 |
| zutesmog | yeah, forgive me for that link ;-) | 14:14 |
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| av500 | zutesmog: provide an adaptation kernel and all will be dandy | 14:14 |
| Stskeeps | zt-180a. what's that? | 14:15 |
| av500 | chinese | 14:15 |
| av500 | 1ghz arm11 | 14:15 |
| alterego | Also, I think I can be happy with my N900 for a few years to come. | 14:15 |
| av500 | armv6, so bad luck | 14:15 |
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| alterego | If anything they'll be saving me money as I wont be so eager to get the latest greatest "internet tablet" from them every year. | 14:15 |
| zutesmog | ahh. bummer. | 14:16 |
| av500 | btw, http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2011/02/09/month-with-nexus-s/ | 14:16 |
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| zutesmog | Looking for a cheap 10" tablet resistive or capacitive, to run meego or ubuntu, for a POS app. (basically a cut down touch screen cash register app). | 14:18 |
| av500 | zutesmog: for a pos you might even prefer resistive | 14:19 |
| av500 | as ppl tend to hammer on them | 14:19 |
| zutesmog | yeah. My thoughts too. | 14:19 |
| av500 | zutesmog: afaik, meego support for <armv7 is not there | 14:20 |
| av500 | so no hypercharged arm9 or arm11 | 14:20 |
| zutesmog | ok, missed that. | 14:20 |
| zutesmog | trying to see what arm version ubuntu supports | 14:21 |
| Stskeeps | av500: in truth we still maintain armv5, just not active builds | 14:21 |
| av500 | Stskeeps: you know more than me :) | 14:21 |
| Stskeeps | ie, when people send reports it's broken, we fix it | 14:21 |
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| zutesmog | looks like ubuntu is fairly v7 focused too. Will keep looking for an ARM v7 tablet ;-) | 14:23 |
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| obit_sweden | Anyone that will attend to meego summit in april ? | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | <- | 14:38 |
| dm8tbr | AOL! | 14:38 |
| raster | only if they give out freebie meego phones :) | 14:38 |
| raster | heheh | 14:38 |
| raster | :) | 14:38 |
| raster | (they thats the only reason people go to google i/o) :) | 14:38 |
| obit_sweden | I'll probably wait until tomorrow until deciding :-) | 14:39 |
| * RST38h moos at raster evilly | 14:39 | |
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| RST38h | raster: Only after Samsung gives out freebie linux phones! =) | 14:39 |
| * raster burrps at RST38h smellily | 14:39 | |
| raster | RST38h: that can be arranged :) | 14:39 |
| raster | and yes yes i know | 14:39 |
| dm8tbr | obit_sweden: if you haven't registered yet that decision has been made for you | 14:40 |
| RST38h | raster: Are you simply waiting for all the Maemo/Meego fanatics to get desperate enough? =) | 14:40 |
| raster | RST38h: well i'm kind of hoping that there can be a meeting of the minds re meego and sammy | 14:40 |
| raster | let's see | 14:40 |
| raster | :) | 14:40 |
| KevinB | Is elop honnest? | 14:41 |
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| raster | but as such we have our own trajectory that is well down the path | 14:41 |
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| obit_sweden | dm8tbr: Oh the registration are full to bad :-( | 14:41 |
| jnwi | We might get a bigger location in Tampere | 14:41 |
| jnwi | assuming there isn't another summit in April that you're talking about | 14:41 |
| KevinB | coz he comes from µsoft, guess he wanna share with the old friends ... | 14:41 |
| obit_sweden | Yeah I missed that registration was opened | 14:41 |
| dm8tbr | jnwi: where would the money for the additional lunches, coffee, etc come from? | 14:42 |
| jnwi | It was full within hours of our press release... | 14:42 |
| jnwi | which is both good and bad | 14:42 |
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| raster | KevinB: just wait. theres a capital markets call | 14:42 |
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| raster | and mwc | 14:42 |
| raster | all will pop out soon enouhg i imagine | 14:42 |
| jnwi | dm8tbr: I don't know, they're working on it | 14:42 |
| RST38h | raster: Just a few hours ago, had a conversation about the UI/UX/appsuite being completely separate from the core OS | 14:42 |
| jnwi | dm8tbr: I'm just the marketing team lead | 14:43 |
| raster | RST38h: u mean qt universe vs everything else? | 14:43 |
| RST38h | raster: I.e. stuff that is below the command shell and stuff that is above command shell should be freely interchangeable | 14:43 |
| obit_sweden | Please arrange for more people if possible | 14:43 |
| raster | ie as an "app writeR" u "write to qt as the api" | 14:43 |
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| raster | and u dont know or care about the os underneath? | 14:43 |
| RST38h | raster: In a more general way | 14:43 |
| raster | so what about it? | 14:44 |
| raster | u likeit | 14:44 |
| RST38h | raster: "Write in POSIX, Qt, Gtk, other high level APIs and do not care about the stuff underneath: | 14:44 |
| raster | dont like it? | 14:44 |
| raster | well gtk isnt part of meego | 14:44 |
| raster | not really | 14:44 |
| RST38h | raster: But it should not matter really | 14:44 |
| raster | its killed as best i can see | 14:44 |
| raster | its just qt | 14:44 |
| raster | anbd all its wrapping of anything | 14:44 |
| raster | (qt mobility etc.) | 14:44 |
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| RST38h | raster: It is not part of the Meego UX, indeed. But if someone is bent on implementing his own UX in Gtk, he can bring it and run it on top of meego | 14:45 |
| jnwi | http://summit.meegonetwork.fi/queue-cancellation-seats | 14:45 |
| RST38h | raster: Same with E stuff | 14:45 |
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| raster | sure | 14:45 |
| obit_sweden | jnwi: I will surely signup on that queue thnx | 14:45 |
| raster | but it will not be blessed or supported | 14:45 |
| jnwi | np | 14:45 |
| zutesmog | ubuntu seem to be getting quite Qt friendly too. | 14:46 |
| RST38h | raster: If you are an OEM, you do not need your OEM stuff to be blessed or supported. You support it yourself. | 14:46 |
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| obit_sweden | My summit slot is herby connected to the summit signal yourWelcome | 14:48 |
| jnwi | what? | 14:49 |
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| obit_sweden | queue-cancellation-seats | 14:50 |
| raster | RST38h: but as an oem then what is the point of using another toolkit | 14:50 |
| raster | when ytou ALSO have to support and work with people who use a toolkit u dont use or support? | 14:50 |
| jnwi | Did it really say something like that? | 14:51 |
| RST38h | raster: You may have had UX written with a different toolkit already | 14:52 |
| RST38h | raster: You may not have liked Qt for one reason or the other | 14:52 |
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| slaine | 'cause it's C++, that's the only reason | 14:52 |
| * slaine ducks | 14:52 | |
| RST38h | That too, there are certain reasons against C++ | 14:53 |
| slaine | !C is my main one ;) | 14:53 |
| slaine | lol | 14:53 |
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| slaine | mmeeks: I agree with most of your blog post there, but I just don't see wp7 making sense. Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen though. As discussed here earlier/yesterday/this week, a partnering with HP on WebOS as an alternate to MeeGo would seem more likely due to similar knowledge already in the engineering team. | 15:08 |
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| mmeeks | slaine: good point :-) | 15:10 |
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| disperso | webOS also makes a lot of sense to me, but maybe it's too late? | 15:10 |
| slaine | Well, if they can get Qt 4.7.x on there and all the mobility frameworks, then it's a runner | 15:11 |
| slaine | But it's yet another reset | 15:11 |
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| disperso | but qt on windows phone seems like a no-go | 15:12 |
| slaine | exactly, wp7 is all .net stuff | 15:12 |
| slaine | Qt/Quick out the window, all the effory into Qt/Quick and the sundry frameworks would be wasted | 15:12 |
| disperso | I even thought that nokia could reach an agreement with google for allowing Qt on Dalvik, and Dalvik on MeeGo | 15:13 |
| disperso | the qt-android port seems quite nice for a hobby project | 15:13 |
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| slaine | I think they need to stop second guessing every path the follow and fully commit to something | 15:14 |
| disperso | yes, and I finally see them doing that with Qt, it's only that it took so long :-( | 15:15 |
| disperso | i can't belive that they still have so many problems with qt on symbian | 15:15 |
| slaine | That means either ditching the idea of controlling the OS/Software stack and focusing more on Hardware (in essence becoming more like HTC) | 15:15 |
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| disperso | yes, but Nokia wishing to become HTC is nuts, even if they are declining, isn't it? | 15:17 |
| disperso | Nokia is still big, IMHO | 15:17 |
| slaine | That's what a CEO is for :) | 15:17 |
| disperso | heh :) | 15:17 |
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| slaine | Well, its a course of action that would be considered in order to return to higher profitability | 15:17 |
| slaine | focus on hardware, reduce software, shed jobs | 15:18 |
| slaine | I'd hate to see that happen | 15:18 |
| disperso | me too | 15:19 |
| arfoll | slaine, or it could go the otherway. the way I see it nokia are loosing marketshare because competitors software is much better. Why not remove some hardware platforms stop making 200 phones a year and make fewer better ones | 15:20 |
| slaine | Hopefully it's a case of stopping betting on a two horse race, ditching Symbian, essentially put it into maintenance mode, and focusing on MeeGo | 15:20 |
| disperso | specially because since meego is real linux, it makes sense not only for phones; I hoped to see MeeGo laptops and PCs... now HP has hinted they will do full blown computers | 15:21 |
| slaine | arfoll: yeah, that's my second point too and the one I'd prefer to see | 15:21 |
| slaine | It depends on the volume of feature phones vs smart phones | 15:21 |
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| slaine | where smart phones are more expensive devices, but feature phones sell in higher volumes | 15:21 |
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| slaine | disperso: Intel hinted the same thing about MeeGo a year ago, haven't seen anything happen yet | 15:22 |
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| arfoll | crazy idea, nokia joins the crew and launches a 'smart tv' | 15:23 |
| disperso | not a bad idea, I always thought that a TV is a great candidate for a smart device: e.g. videoconference, media hub, etc | 15:24 |
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| disperso | but I want a dumb TV screen, with a smart replaceable "brain" | 15:24 |
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| slaine | arfoll, the crew ? | 15:30 |
| obit_sweden | disperso: Go meego + mythtv tweak it for your needs and you have a decent home entertainment system | 15:30 |
| arfoll | slaine, i mean the whole wave of people doing smart tv - google, apple, boxee blahblah | 15:30 |
| slaine | ah right | 15:30 |
| arfoll | it wasnt a very good choice of wording | 15:30 |
| slaine | arfoll: it was very street of you | 15:31 |
| slaine | ;P | 15:31 |
| slaine | one of the lads here got one of those boxee remotes, nice | 15:31 |
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| arfoll | slaine, what can i say - barcelona ghetto life is getting to me | 15:33 |
| disperso | obit_sweden: I want to do that, but my problem would be the hardware; anyway, the ideal situation would be buying the device actually built soft+hard | 15:33 |
| arfoll | is the boxee remote IR or BT? there was a discussion about it on #xbmc-linux | 15:33 |
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| disperso | arfoll: which barcelona's neighbourhood is ghetto to you? :) | 15:35 |
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| arfoll | disperso, barceloneta definately | 15:37 |
| av500 | raster: you troll here too? | 15:38 |
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| slaine | arfoll, BT | 15:38 |
| slaine | Sorry, RF | 15:38 |
| arfoll | that's what I thought. I want to get one :-) | 15:38 |
| arfoll | ah damn | 15:39 |
| arfoll | you had to ruin it | 15:39 |
| slaine | has RF written all over it | 15:39 |
| sivang | re | 15:39 |
| sivang | can I do qml with the 1.0.2 qt sdk? | 15:39 |
| sivang | or is the editor andviewer only available in 1.1 tech preview? | 15:39 |
| arfoll | slaine, i'll have to try one i guess | 15:40 |
| Wellark | http://i.imgur.com/4kepL.jpg (worksafe) | 15:40 |
| arfoll | Wellark, lol | 15:40 |
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| disperso | sivang: afaik, you have Qt 4.7, but no creator 2.0, so you can do QML, but no visual editor | 15:40 |
| sivang | disperso: okay, thanks I don't really ned th visual editor, as it s not visual, I mean, you can't realy draw ? | 15:41 |
| sivang | disperso: draw UI elemetns, just see your changes while editing? | 15:41 |
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| disperso | sivang: the visual editor in Creator is just to lay the UI visually, instead of hand-writing the anchors | 15:43 |
| disperso | i haven't used it much | 15:43 |
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| sivang | disperso: oh nice | 15:44 |
| sivang | disperso: although ancoring usualy turns whatyou wanted so far forme | 15:44 |
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| * RST38h yawns | 15:47 | |
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| tzorvas___ | hey guys. why developer.meego.com is down? | 15:52 |
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| ali1234 | obit_sweden: what advantage does meego+mythtv have over, say, ubuntu+mythtv? | 15:53 |
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| av500 | tzorvas___: being switched over to android for tomorrow | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | oi, no trolling | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | tzorvas___: it's a site under development i believe | 15:53 |
| av500 | Stskeeps: not even a tiny wee bit? | 15:54 |
| av500 | :) | 15:54 |
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| tzorvas___ | Stskeeps: yeah i know but i feel unlucky today. also my domain registrar site is down :P | 15:58 |
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| obit_sweden | ali1234: It doesn't have any but it's fun to use meego | 16:06 |
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| RST38h | Doc: It is written by a bunch of ego driven mad penguins randomly typing C code =) | 16:07 |
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| obit_sweden | disperso: what problem do you have regarding hardware ? | 16:09 |
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| dhunter | hey | 16:20 |
| dhunter | any meego developer here? | 16:20 |
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| dm8tbr | no, we just pretend | 16:22 |
| dhunter | haha | 16:22 |
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| dhunter | I just came here to ask how is it going? | 16:23 |
| dhunter | nokia has any plans to deploy it soon? | 16:23 |
| Jaffa | dhunter: MeeGo developers don't necessarily know anything about any individual vendor's plans. | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | ask nokia, please :) | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | dhunter: And if they did, they wouldn't say. | 16:24 |
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| Stskeeps | dhunter: www.meego.com is what we are here | 16:25 |
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| dhunter | Stskeeps: oh, I get it | 16:25 |
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| slaine | Stskeeps: is it finished yet ? | 16:32 |
| Stskeeps | huh? | 16:32 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:32 |
| slaine | ;) | 16:32 |
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| RST38h | Engadget gloating: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/10/amazon-app-released-for-the-newest-windows-phone-7-models/ | 16:38 |
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| disperso | obit_sweden: I meant finding a box with low noise, low power consumption and good drivers, hopefully one that has all integrated; I know there are several choices, but if I would want to buy such a thing, i would require some research first | 16:53 |
| KevinB | I know here, is meego.com : I just wonder how much Nokia in | 16:54 |
| KevinB | how much nokia s investment is in the project? | 16:54 |
| * lbt wonders if it's worth doing an auto-kick on the word nokia for the rest of today? | 16:55 | |
| KevinB | yea could be usefull :p | 16:55 |
| av500 | nokla? | 16:55 |
| disperso | KevinB: how do you measure that? :) they contribute a lot to Qt, which is quite important, the remaining is hard to measure | 16:55 |
| * dm8tbr votes in favour | 16:55 | |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: turns out WebOS uses Qt for embedded linux extensively | 16:55 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: hmm? | 16:55 |
| javispedro | remember when I found out the shipped Qt 4.6 with the image? | 16:56 |
| javispedro | I've dumped the symbols they use -- a lot. | 16:56 |
| javispedro | QWS* stuff, for example. | 16:56 |
| Stskeeps | interesting | 16:56 |
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| javispedro | graphics view also. | 16:56 |
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| disperso | javispedro: what do you mean with embedded linux? what about the primary UI, or their first party applications? | 16:57 |
| KevinB | disperso : cool, so it s not as much as I thought | 16:57 |
| javispedro | disperso: first party appliations are "web"(js)os ;), primary UI is the one being rendered on a graphics view | 16:57 |
| javispedro | running apps list, etc. | 16:57 |
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| disperso | javispedro: cool | 16:58 |
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| disperso | javispedro: BTW, kudos for finding that; i've read about it in a blog, but it didn't add any sources for the info | 17:00 |
| javispedro | actually I wouldn't be surprised if they had a #ifdef where they turn the main UI into a pure Qt app. | 17:01 |
| javispedro | as the number of calls that are not abstracted by Qt is very small. | 17:01 |
| berndhs | aha, the plot thickens | 17:01 |
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| berndhs | I can make up a conspiracy theory about webOs/meego merger :) | 17:02 |
| javispedro | for ex. they previously had a daemon for handling input. the daemon is still there, but just pushes events into the Qt queue. | 17:02 |
| javispedro | tbh I've been thinking that too. More like: "Someone thought for a moment they could run the webos UI on top of Meego/Qt". | 17:03 |
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| javispedro | but it can also be that they just wanted to test in a hosted/under Windows environment. | 17:06 |
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| Jaffa | javispedro: Dev purposes (incl. emulators for SDKs) sounds more likely | 17:09 |
| disperso | given that Elop's talk title on MWC is "connecting the dots", a conspiracy theory makes sense ;) | 17:09 |
| disperso | oh, and now I'm remembering that HP also uses Qt in HPLIP | 17:09 |
| Aard | hey, 'connecting the dots' was our conference motto a few years ago ;) | 17:10 |
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| javispedro | Jaffa: yeah, agreed. thought that they moved their animations code, etc. to Qt probably talks something about how easy is to do that in Qt ;) | 17:11 |
| javispedro | *though | 17:11 |
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| Jaffa | The TouchPad looked quite shiny from the video I saw | 17:13 |
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| slaine | Thought it looked lovely | 17:14 |
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| slaine | I'd hoped webOs on a tablet would work well, it looked like the UI paradigm would translate well and it seems to have | 17:15 |
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| Khertan | Hi all ! | 17:16 |
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| Stskeeps | hi khertan, how are things? | 17:17 |
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| Khertan | Stskeeps: fine ... | 17:24 |
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| Khertan | Stskeeps: i ll have a test in few hours for a new jobs :) | 17:24 |
| daniels | the trolley is back | 17:24 |
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| daniels | (wrong window, sorry) | 17:24 |
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| laurent1 | Is there a way to get more verbose output on "mad-admin create" ? | 17:45 |
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| dogi | sure | 17:55 |
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| qgil | vgrade: aren't you seeing too much behind bug 11113 - fwiw is the first time I hear about this brand refresh but I expect it to be made to solve all these little proprietary and trademark annoyances | 17:58 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11113 nor, Undecided, ---, shai.bowman, ASSI, MeeGo logo exclusion zone too restrictive | 17:58 |
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| jbos | romaxa ping | 17:59 |
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| openstandards | Hi all, whats the status on the n900 working with meego if you don't mind me asking | 18:00 |
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| Jaffa | openstandards: Status meeting minutes were posted today | 18:05 |
| Jaffa | openstandards: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-February/481488.html | 18:05 |
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| sig^ | hyvin pitkä; vaivalloinen lukea. Referoisitko? | 18:06 |
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| openstandards | cheers Jaffa | 18:16 |
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| jatt | will nokia release a smartphone running meego? | 18:40 |
| av500 | no | 18:41 |
| jatt | on which smartphone will meego run? | 18:41 |
| dm8tbr | jatt: you'll see it in the news | 18:42 |
| jatt | wow nice, so it will be a surprise? | 18:42 |
| dm8tbr | please don't ask about what nokia does. we are not nokia in here. we don't know such things. | 18:43 |
| jatt | I see ok | 18:43 |
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| npm | has anybody figured out how to get firewire or external media i/o onto the MeeGo Lenovo S10-3t via the Mini PCI-E adapter? (e.g. http://www.adexelec.com/pciexp.htm#PE-MINI-FLEX ) | 19:12 |
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| arfoll | npm, the bios has a lock so unfortunately it mostly refuses to boot when a PCI-E x1 card is inserted and it does not have it in it's list | 19:12 |
| npm | doh! | 19:13 |
| npm | (i don't have it yet, so i haven't found that out ... just making some plans :-) ) | 19:13 |
| arfoll | there are some hacks to bypass it if you look in google, haven't managed to try any because you need windows on the damned thing to flash the bios | 19:13 |
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| arfoll | nice cards though didnt know they made adapters like that | 19:13 |
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| npm | what i'd like to do is have it control some pci-e cards of the full size variety ( want http://code.google.com/p/mudita24/ running in touchscreen mode ) | 19:15 |
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| barroca | anyone would like to test the behavior of wired network card on suspend? | 19:18 |
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| barroca | Once resume from suspend, the wired card doesn't work, only after calling tcpdump on the interface it starts to receive data from the network and things get normal. | 19:19 |
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| barroca | I've submited a bug on the kernel.org bugzilla, but it might not be a driver issue as they told me. Maybe this is a problem with connmand | 19:20 |
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| slaine | qgil: webos makes a better alternate than android or wp7 for sure | 19:21 |
| slaine | if it was to happen | 19:21 |
| vadmeste_ | Hello everybody! Are Linux CLI applications easily portable under Meego ? | 19:21 |
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| mwichmann | mostly, as you might expect | 19:22 |
| npm | vadmeste_: yes | 19:22 |
| mwichmann | any more details? | 19:22 |
| vadmeste_ | Meego has the usual gnu C library, right ? :) | 19:22 |
| npm | vadmeste_: yes | 19:22 |
| npm | you can even do a compile on a handset if you need a handwarmer | 19:23 |
| vadmeste_ | ^_^ | 19:23 |
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| vadmeste_ | I was shocked when I've seen this link http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=meego | 19:25 |
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| av500 | what is so shocking? | 19:26 |
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| npm | that there are blanks for things like 'emacs' or | 19:28 |
| npm | or abiword? | 19:28 |
| vadmeste_ | No, I mean positivly shocked | 19:28 |
| vadmeste_ | because Meego can be considered a linux distro | 19:29 |
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| vadmeste_ | not as Android or Iphone, etc... | 19:30 |
| npm | welcome to MeeGo :-) | 19:30 |
| av500 | android is a distro as well | 19:32 |
| av500 | its google "distributing" linux | 19:32 |
| vadmeste_ | yes, but it is not easy to port a linux application to android because android has different c library | 19:33 |
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| vadmeste_ | it doesn't have gtk or qt | 19:33 |
| hena | about the same as to meego | 19:33 |
| av500 | true, its not GNU/linux :) | 19:33 |
| npm | doesn't Qt run on android? | 19:33 |
| av500 | npm: linux runs linux | 19:34 |
| npm | recursion limit reached | 19:34 |
| vadmeste_ | npm: http://code.google.com/p/android-lighthouse/ | 19:35 |
| KevinB | wouldnt be possible to cross compile from linux to android | 19:35 |
| av500 | why? | 19:35 |
| vadmeste_ | but qt support is not official | 19:35 |
| av500 | KevinB: I cross compile from linux to android every day | 19:35 |
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| npm | http://www.trustedreviews.com/software/news/2011/02/08/Android-Apps-On-Any-Phone-WIth-Myriad-s-Alien-Dalvik/p1 | 19:36 |
| npm | or vice versa | 19:36 |
| npm | http://wiki.debian.org/Java/DevJam/2011/Fosdem/JavaSpeakers#IcedRobot | 19:37 |
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| KevinB | av500: have you tried to build qt project with lighthouse? | 19:38 |
| av500 | nope | 19:39 |
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| dneary | Hi | 19:49 |
| dneary | Mike Shaver about? | 19:50 |
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| npm | arfoll: looks like some have managed to add mini pcie cards :-) : http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/IdeaPad-S-series-Netbooks/Broadcom-Crystal-HD-BCM970012-any-success-with-S10-3t/td-p/215342/page/3 | 19:52 |
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| arfoll | npm, like i said you need to modify the bios but sure - it's a list you just have to put your card in it | 19:52 |
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| npm | adds yet another project to the stack :-) | 19:54 |
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| npm | hmm... maybe i'll leave the original disk alone incase i have to run windows ... any failure mode if I use an SSD in the S10-3t? | 19:56 |
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| npm | (run windows to modify the bios) | 19:56 |
| arfoll | npm, i've got an X25-M Gen2 in there since I got it at the meego conf | 19:57 |
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| arfoll | if you have a spare disk i'd recommend saving the original or at least making an image (i should have done that...) | 19:58 |
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| npm | that's good to know... looking forward to trying out your xbmc stuff | 19:58 |
| arfoll | npm, works well on the s10-3t actually, all it needs is vaapi or a crystalhd chip for h/w decode | 19:58 |
| arfoll | and it'll be the perfect watch a film in bed machine | 19:59 |
| npm | heh | 19:59 |
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| chx | channel ttl <24hrs? | 21:02 |
| iekku | chx, how come? | 21:03 |
| chx | Tomorrow Nokia announces they ditch everything and go Windows 7 isnt that what everyone is sayin'? | 21:04 |
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| hena | nope | 21:04 |
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| iekku | chx, meego != nokia | 21:05 |
| hirabayashitaro | chx: seems like a must see thing | 21:05 |
| CosmoHill | hena: not any of the smart ones anyway | 21:05 |
| dm8tbr | chx: we're close to putting an akick on everyone that says the N word | 21:05 |
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| CosmoHill | noir? | 21:06 |
| toggles | nandroid | 21:06 |
| CosmoHill | nickelback? | 21:06 |
| lpotter | noogy | 21:06 |
| lpotter | nincompoop | 21:07 |
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| CosmoHill | niala1? | 21:07 |
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| dm8tbr | y'all can send your cv to careers@nokLa.mobi - If you have $random_mobile_os experience ;) | 21:07 |
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| CosmoHill | dm8tbr: I've not been banned from here, does that count? | 21:08 |
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| hirabayashitaro | dm8tbr: what exactly is "random experience"? | 21:09 |
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| hena | experience collected from the entropypool | 21:10 |
| dm8tbr | http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/10000/2000/300/112314/112314.strip.gif - How about that? It made me smile. Dogbert consults NokLa ;) | 21:10 |
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| CosmoHill | now that/s a url | 21:11 |
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| dm8tbr | *nod* didn't feel like a url shortener though | 21:13 |
| CosmoHill | it just seems very stupid | 21:13 |
| dm8tbr | indeed, I've been wondering for a while why they have _that_ many zeroes | 21:14 |
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| hena | to get the point thru | 21:15 |
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| lpotter | except Nokia is far from irrelevant | 21:19 |
| CosmoHill | shame you can't use ipv6 | 21:19 |
| dm8tbr | for? | 21:19 |
| CosmoHill | str_strip/::/strip.g | 21:19 |
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| niala1 | hi CosmoHill | 21:28 |
| CosmoHill | plop | 21:28 |
| niala1 | slurp | 21:29 |
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| rbelem | Stskeeps: ping | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | pong | 22:02 |
| rbelem | Stskeeps: do you know which qt-mobility packages are the latest? http://download.meego.com/live/devel:/qt-mtf:/qt-mobility:/ | 22:03 |
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| niala1 | fault!!! 1-0 Stskeeps to serve | 22:03 |
| rbelem | 1.2.0 or tp? | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | rbelem: check changelog dates? | 22:03 |
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| rbelem | oki | 22:04 |
| rbelem | Stskeeps: 1.2.0 seems to be old :-( | 22:05 |
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| lbt | interesting close to the http://www.meegosoftware.com/ bug #13109 | 22:09 |
| MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13109 nor, Undecided, ---, brian.warner, RESO FIXED, Potentially illicit site : meegosoftware.com | 22:09 |
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| Stskeeps | better than seizing the domain? | 22:10 |
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| lbt | I don't know what I think about it - it's good that *meego*.com are not going to be chased down too hard | 22:14 |
| lbt | but this site was claiming to be "official" and that, to me, was well over the acceptable line. Still, now they don't make that claim... I'd keep an eye on them. | 22:15 |
| lbt | anyhow... need to get some BOSS work done and setup some stuff for community area | 22:16 |
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| lbt | we still need to sync over the meegobot VM too | 22:16 |
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| RST38h | Anyone can claim officialiy | 22:19 |
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| RST38h | Hell, I can claim to the the Emperor of the Universe. Does not change a thing. | 22:20 |
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| lbt | RST38h: mmm... you can also claim to be an official from the electric company.... and then go round to old peoples houses stealing money .... | 22:25 |
| lbt | I saw it closer to the latter than the former :) | 22:25 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Stealingmoney is a crime | 22:31 |
| RST38h | lbt: Claiming shit on the Net is not, afaik | 22:31 |
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| CosmoHill | can we hit people with sticks how say anything about the n9 or windows 7 | 22:32 |
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| lbt | RST38h: didn't say it was | 22:34 |
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| hirabayashitaro | how long does it usually take for a bug to be assigned? | 22:45 |
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| auke | hirabayashitaro: is there an issue with a bug specifically? bugs should be triaged quickly (a few days max) normally | 22:54 |
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| hirabayashitaro | auke: well, honestly is a proposal for improvement, but non a foundamental one. Is something that I think would be nice to have on a future 1.3-1.4 release. But had no feedback for it and I was wondering why | 22:57 |
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| skrullis | I have fucked up my n900! I was going to change the big user filesystem from vfat to ext2 and that went okay. Then I changed a bit in /etc/fstab /usr/sbin/mmc-mount and /usr/sbin/osso-mmc-mount.sh. Regrettably, I didn't check these files for syntax error before I rebooted the device. Now it just reboots over and over again when I try to start it... what can I do? Is it possible to start it somehow in a hackable way? I run maemo but I gu | 23:07 |
| thiago_home | if you run maemo, please ask in #maemo | 23:08 |
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| thiago_home | but one solution for you might be to install meego on an SD card and boot using that | 23:09 |
| skrullis | thiago_home: ok, thanks | 23:10 |
| mwichmann | that reminds, I'm being lazy here, does the excellent System Rescue CD "understand" meego yet (incl things like the default brtfs on netbook)? | 23:10 |
| mwichmann | if anyone knows, that is | 23:11 |
| DawnFoster | and the friendly no swearing reminder :) http://wiki.meego.com/IRC_guidelines | 23:11 |
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| henux | thiago_home: hi :) | 23:20 |
| henux | thiago_home: i remember you from #qt | 23:21 |
| thiago_home | henux: I remember you from there too | 23:21 |
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| Extends | hi guys, I need some help. I added "translations = translations | 23:29 |
| Extends | DEPLOYMENTFOLDERS = translations" and my *.pro file and when a use qmake && make . I get "cp: cannot copy a directory, `/home/test/Projects/Developer/Qt/Test/trunk/', into itself, `/home/test/Projects/Developer/Qt/Test/trunk/trunk' | 23:29 |
| Extends | make: *** [copydeploymentfolders] Error 1" . Any idea ? thanks | 23:29 |
| Extends | translations is a folder | 23:29 |
| Extends | and inside I have translations files | 23:30 |
| * thiago_home doesn't know how to do translations | 23:30 | |
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| demoboy | so, any meego announcement tomorrow? | 23:34 |
| auke | you're asking something nobody in here can answer | 23:34 |
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| gabrbedd | demoboy: Sorry, dude... there's a crack in my crystal ball. | 23:38 |
| demoboy | ;-) | 23:39 |
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| * thiago_home lost his to The Great River when Osgiliath fell | 23:39 | |
| lbt | what seriously...? you've been looking for it since then.... why didn't you say? I picked it up when it washed up in the delta.... | 23:40 |
| gabrbedd | thiago_home: nice! :-) | 23:41 |
| gabrbedd | lbt: is that the one with the hand prints permanently burnt into it? | 23:41 |
| lbt | yeah, that's the one... I'll Fedex it. | 23:41 |
| gabrbedd | problem is, I think Ballmer has the other one. | 23:42 |
| lbt | demoboy: he'll get it sometime tomorrow... ping him then... | 23:42 |
| thiago_home | Minas Ithil, Minas Anor, Osgiliath, Isengard, one that only faced West and two more in the Kingdom of the North | 23:42 |
| lbt | Finland? | 23:43 |
| thiago_home | lol | 23:43 |
| thiago_home | could be | 23:43 |
| * thiago_home checks if wikipedia has a page on the palantÃri | 23:43 | |
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| gabrbedd | thiago_home: it does. | 23:44 |
| gabrbedd | thiago_home: But impressive that you can name all 6. :-) | 23:45 |
| lbt | mmm that was 7 | 23:46 |
| thiago_home | and I didn't name them | 23:47 |
| thiago_home | I named only 4 | 23:47 |
| gabrbedd | lbt: see, that's why I'm so impressed! | 23:47 |
| gabrbedd | s/name/account for/ | 23:47 |
| henux | so is meego a dead platform? | 23:48 |
| thiago_home | henux: I don't see anything dead | 23:49 |
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| lbt | henux: yep... see bug #52552 ... self-replication broken | 23:50 |
| henux | nasty | 23:52 |
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| * VanDamas http://hotour.ucoz.com Visit my site to download my all Hot videos! | 23:56 | |
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