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| lbt | once more unto the breach... | 12:16 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 12:16 |
| lbt | Mark sent a new email | 12:17 |
| lbt | I feel we're getting much closer | 12:17 |
| Stskeeps | i think the mailing lists are FUBAR atm | 12:17 |
| lbt | yes... I heard something | 12:18 |
| lbt | bad time for it | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | or good, depending on perspective ;) | 12:19 |
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| lbt | I nearly said that | 12:20 |
| sjokkis | lbt: could you link me to the maemo request queue again? can't seem to find it | 12:21 |
| sjokkis | dawn wants to know some details about it | 12:21 |
| thiago_home | which Mark? | 12:22 |
| lbt | http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue | 12:22 |
| lbt | thiago_home: Skarpness | 12:22 |
| sjokkis | thank you, sir | 12:22 |
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| lbt | sjokkis: you're zeigeist right? | 12:25 |
| TermanaDesire | If your talking about the spec thread on the mailing list - seems like an issue with its resolution potentially needing to be made by the technical steering committee | 12:25 |
| lbt | +t | 12:25 |
| sjokkis | lbt: yeah | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | TermanaDesire: i think both sides have problems in their arguments by now | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | hopefully it'll end up in a good solution that works | 12:27 |
| lbt | TermanaDesire: I may have "inadvertantly" raised/flagged it in a big way at the last TSG point 5b : http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-09-15-19.01.html | 12:27 |
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| TermanaDesire | Hopefully it can be resolved without the tsg, nut we'll see what happens I guess. It would be better if a solution that suits everybody could be made. | 12:29 |
| TermanaDesire | But* | 12:29 |
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| lbt | I'm a bit miffed that I've raised a concrete wording proposal that's been totally ignored | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | well, i don't think so much it's the wording but principles behind | 12:31 |
| lbt | * permit the open-source development model to work for compliant applications | 12:31 |
| lbt | what's wrong with that? | 12:31 |
| lbt | I *DID NOT* say | 12:31 |
| lbt | "permit open-source compliant applications" | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | a random guy in china isn't going to understand what you mean exactly | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | arjan's phrasing of what the meaning was, was better | 12:31 |
| lbt | let me dig.... or quote? | 12:32 |
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| Stskeeps | It's about a componentized application with cross app shared components. | 12:33 |
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| TermanaDesire | Out of interest, who is the assigned responsible person for this? Isn't it Ibrahim (spelling?) from LF? | 12:33 |
| TermanaDesire | I haven't seen him post once :p | 12:33 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: you mean "It's about forbidding a componentized application with cross app shared components" | 12:34 |
| Stskeeps | well, no, it was about using the term open-source development model :P | 12:34 |
| lbt | well bullcrap | 12:34 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, CORBA>.. | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:35 |
| lbt | that is the oss model | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | well, no | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | it just acts in same way | 12:35 |
| lbt | Open source apps *tend* to have external dependencies. | 12:35 |
| lbt | Closed source apps *tend* not to. | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | i beg to differ | 12:35 |
| Stskeeps | take a look at activex and dll-hell on windows | 12:35 |
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| lbt | vs Debian ? | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | do i need to remind you of VB runtime? :) | 12:36 |
| lbt | errr.... and this would be my point... | 12:36 |
| lbt | the model proposed is MS like | 12:36 |
| lbt | each app ships a set of dlls | 12:36 |
| lbt | same ones in multile apps | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | well, no | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | .NET Framework, for instance | 12:36 |
| Stskeeps | installable, people download it externally | 12:37 |
| lbt | I'm way out of my knowledge zone I'm afraid | 12:37 |
| Stskeeps | i've tried to download ATI drivers at some point | 12:37 |
| Stskeeps | and was asked to pull down .NET Framework first | 12:37 |
| Stskeeps | ~300mb download | 12:37 |
| TermanaDesire | .net framework is also shipped with some apps :p but anyway... | 12:37 |
| kyb3R | :) | 12:37 |
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| lbt | so I'm not seeing the mapping clearly enough to jump to your meaning | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | that closed source apps has just as many insane dependancies as open | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | it's code reuse | 12:39 |
| lbt | so the ati drivers should be 302 Mb download | 12:39 |
| Stskeeps | which is the core of oss, the 90's of product development, etc.. | 12:39 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:39 |
| lbt | and the .Net desktop widget too | 12:39 |
| lbt | is this Intel's play to sell flash chips? | 12:40 |
| lbt | (joke) | 12:40 |
| Stskeeps | ok, so, let's reiterate | 12:40 |
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| Stskeeps | we'd like to make a promise that when a application is deemed meego compliant, it will install on all meego devices | 12:40 |
| debayan | I was wondering why there is no dbus notification from packagekit if there are updates available. | 12:40 |
| lbt | no | 12:40 |
| lbt | I disagree right there | 12:40 |
| lbt | see my last email | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | and i mean application, not package | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | what is your view then? | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | i don't see emails atm | 12:41 |
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| lbt | I think it is: "If you _install_ a compliant app then it will work?" | 12:41 |
| lbt | Or is there a promise and expectation that *any* compliant app a user can "get hold off" will install and work? This sounds unlikely. | 12:41 |
| TermanaDesire | Install on all devices that allow it at least. As much as I hate manufactures that will lock down | 12:41 |
| lbt | this goes to policy based stuff | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: ok, so, 'if you install a compliant app, then it will work', that works for me | 12:42 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: that is easy to insure by only having one meego device produced | 12:42 |
| lbt | that concept is *REALLY* important | 12:42 |
| lbt | since dependency can manage it | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: ok, so, install can mean two things: | 12:43 |
| RST38h | And then you can release a Meego2 device, and then Meego3...Well, you know | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | * install from an installation source, a repository: it's dependancies must be solved within this installation source | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | * install from a rpm package: it's dependancies must be solved by the meego core/ux | 12:43 |
| lbt | I mean it to say "yum succeeds" | 12:43 |
| Stskeeps | right | 12:43 |
| lbt | so that's a 3rd | 12:43 |
| lbt | since your first had a caveat of "the same" | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | rpm package situation we can pretty much agree on: only way that this can work is if we check it only has meego core/ux dependancies, right? | 12:44 |
| Stskeeps | no other way | 12:44 |
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| lbt | no | 12:44 |
| RST38h | And what kind of packages are supposed to be in the repository? | 12:44 |
| lbt | disagree | 12:44 |
| lbt | if I throw an rpm with "external deps" at yum | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Are they rpms or something else? | 12:44 |
| lbt | it looks in my repo list and tries | 12:44 |
| lbt | RST38h: rpms | 12:45 |
| RST38h | Ok, so there are 2 kinds of rpms now? | 12:45 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: ok, let's be practical here - my point is there's two cases, repositories, and wget rpm scenario | 12:45 |
| Stskeeps | the wget rpm scenario i would like to talk about | 12:45 |
| RST38h | Repository-sourced rpms and package rpms? | 12:45 |
| lbt | I'd forbid " rpm -i " | 12:45 |
| Jaffa | Ditto | 12:45 |
| lbt | that's a total unresolved hack | 12:45 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: so wget rpm.... yes | 12:46 |
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| Stskeeps | wget rpm is one that doesn't exist in a repository, and the only way to check compliance is by checking it only uses meego core/ux dependancies, right? | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, on a technical level | 12:46 |
| lbt | ah.... | 12:46 |
| lbt | This is about validating compliance | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | we have to be able to -test- compliance, otherwise it gets mighty subjective | 12:47 |
| lbt | lets bench that6 | 12:47 |
| lbt | second | 12:47 |
| lbt | lets start by assuming the app is compliant | 12:47 |
| RST38h | You also have to insure that your compliance test actually means something | 12:47 |
| lbt | please | 12:47 |
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| RST38h | Because the way you define compliance now (not-dependant-on-anything-but-core) does not mean that the pacage will work on any meego device | 12:48 |
| lbt | I agree we need to revisit the test question | 12:48 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 12:48 |
| Stskeeps | so i think we need to work backwards | 12:48 |
| Stskeeps | we start at the user: he wants to install an app. two installation sources: repositories, or rpm's straight from web | 12:48 |
| lbt | yes | 12:48 |
| lbt | but conceptually the same | 12:49 |
| lbt | an rpm | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | rpm straight from web is obvious: we can only test for this case by verifying he only uses meego core/ux dependancies, right? | 12:49 |
| lbt | hold on... are we doing "test" | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | it does not make sense to ask a guy to add X,Y,Z repository for his dependancies to resolve | 12:49 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: How do you know which UX to test for? | 12:49 |
| lbt | or install | 12:49 |
| lbt | woah... | 12:49 |
| lbt | scope please | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | so, compliance is very closely linked to testing | 12:50 |
| lbt | agreed... | 12:50 |
| lbt | but you're making a major assumption | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | which is? | 12:50 |
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| lbt | and it's so far unstated | 12:50 |
| lbt | that the apps compliance is tested at install time | 12:50 |
| lbt | not labelled by the developer | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | no no.. | 12:50 |
| Termana | what? | 12:50 |
| Termana | :P | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | i'm just saying that this is how a test on 'if i install a compliant app, it would work' principle would start | 12:51 |
| ieatlint | will compliance take into account anything beyond dependency compliance? (for instance, an opengl game that looks great on some devices, but others lack the power to make it usable) | 12:51 |
| Stskeeps | it would start at exactly that | 12:51 |
| lbt | OK ... but can we skip this Stskeeps | 12:51 |
| lbt | and go to "assume the rpm is complliant" | 12:51 |
| lbt | and how it would work | 12:51 |
| Stskeeps | no, because i think it's important to understand why some of the wording/angles by people are the way they are :P | 12:52 |
| lbt | in various scenarios given various depends | 12:52 |
| lbt | mmm | 12:52 |
| Termana | ieatlint, that's why MeeGo compliance as a whole has minimum hardware requirements. | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | .. we need a whiteboard | 12:52 |
| lbt | yeah | 12:52 |
| Termana | There are online whiteboards... | 12:52 |
| Termana | for collaboration | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: we agree on the core that compliance => i'm able to install it and it would work, right? | 12:52 |
| lbt | that is the goal | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | etherpad? | 12:53 |
| ieatlint | Termana: restricting applications so that they are forced to work on the lowest hardware settings possible seems pretty stupid | 12:53 |
| lbt | linky? | 12:53 |
| lbt | "The EtherPad.com servers have now been shut down" | 12:53 |
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| Termana | ieatlint, no I mean, for a device to be MeeGo compliant it needs a minimum set of hardware | 12:53 |
| kyb3R | try http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/Y7CitEEIga | 12:54 |
| Jaffa | lbt: http://www.ietherpad.com/ | 12:54 |
| Jaffa | But I'd contend that an etherpad isn't the same as a whiteboard | 12:54 |
| kyb3R | it isnt | 12:54 |
| ieatlint | ah, yes, this i understand, but a game that runs on a netbook may be simply unrealistic to run on a handset is my point | 12:54 |
| RST38h | Are specific buttons included into the hardware definition? | 12:54 |
| RST38h | I.e. if device A has a MENU button and application AA is written to rely on it, will AA work on a device B lacking MENU button? | 12:55 |
| RST38h | how about screen dimensions and color resolution? | 12:55 |
| Termana | RST38h, I don't think thats really been discussed yet | 12:55 |
| RST38h | how about supported audio rates? | 12:55 |
| RST38h | Termana: Well, it better be | 12:55 |
| RST38h | Termana: Because... SYMBIAN! | 12:56 |
| Termana | sucks | 12:56 |
| Termana | Oh I'm sorry, that's not what you were saying? :P | 12:56 |
| RST38h | For exactly this reason,among the others. | 12:56 |
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| RST38h | I am saying that in spite of extensive standartization and compliance testing, it was a royal pain to insure that the same Symbian app could work across different devices. Especially UIQ devices. | 12:57 |
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| RST38h | Based on that, I am saying that the current compliance-as-function-of-dependencies discussion is somewhat pointless because such compliance does not insure that your app will work across all meego devices. | 12:58 |
| Termana | Everyone else has gone quiet? Are yous searching for an online whiteboard or something? :P | 12:58 |
| RST38h | Also, it is fairly easy to install a missing package, but it is not possible to add missing hardware :) | 12:58 |
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| ieatlint | i think it's going to have to be assumed that there will be no way to ensure that a device has even a single button for use, and the way to force compatibility is to require that no application exclusively rely on a button being present | 12:59 |
| RST38h | What will be the point of having those buttons then? | 12:59 |
| RST38h | Also, given that we do not know what screen resolutions will be, should applications stop relying on having a screen? :) | 13:00 |
| ieatlint | allowing an application to use the button for ease would allow it -- i just mean forcing that there be a touch-based alternative for the functionality | 13:00 |
| RST38h | ah ok | 13:00 |
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| ieatlint | perhaps with the ability to detect which buttons are present, and allow for the removal of the touchscreen functionality | 13:01 |
| RST38h | But, as a developer, I would really like that to be added at the core UI level | 13:01 |
| RST38h | i.e. something like a pullable tray that the developers can add virtual buttons to | 13:01 |
| RST38h | Something like the tray found in Maemo XTerm, just more generic | 13:02 |
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| RST38h | BTW, lack/presense of hw buttons is only one issue of many | 13:03 |
| Termana | the detection ability would have to be built in to MeeGo. Wouldn't want apps all having to write the detection code and potentially doing it differently. | 13:03 |
| RST38h | Screen sizes,color resolutions,audio specifics | 13:03 |
| ieatlint | this is why apple restricts so much :P | 13:03 |
| Termana | Android seems to have done fine | 13:03 |
| RST38h | Termana: Application should be able to say WantHWButton(KeyCode) | 13:04 |
| ieatlint | audio specifics can be queried i know | 13:04 |
| RST38h | Termana: That's all application should really care about | 13:04 |
| RST38h | ieatlint: Same as screen size and pixel format. Yet, making an app that supports all possible combinations is damn difficult | 13:04 |
| Termana | Personally, I would rather have buttons and make the buttons a requirement for compliance | 13:05 |
| Termana | But that's just me :P | 13:05 |
| ieatlint | yeah, scaling a UI is not always easy, heh | 13:05 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, indeed, though some layouts can happily transpose themselves and it depends how the component groups handle it elegantly | 13:25 |
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| gemidjy | are there any mirrors of download3.meego.com ? this goes max. 15kb/s | 16:55 |
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| theplic | gemidjy: theres a meego chrome image available via torrents | 17:12 |
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| CosmoHill | there's one on the front page too | 17:13 |
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| GAN800 | missing large chunks of the meego spec thread | 17:37 |
| GAN800 | What a pain | 17:38 |
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| Bersam | Hi everybody ... can i install meego on my iphone ? | 17:41 |
| Termana | If you have an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G and are smart enough to port MeeGo to it, yes | 17:42 |
| thiago_home | and if you have the tools necessary to flash it | 17:42 |
| thiago_home | do you have iPhone flashing tools? | 17:42 |
| thiago_home | btw, isn't the iPhone 3G an OMAP3? | 17:43 |
| Bersam | thiago: it's jailbreaked ... but i don't have that tool ... | 17:43 |
| Termana | thiago_home, iPhone 3GS is, 3G isn't | 17:43 |
| Bersam | Termana: i have iphone 3gs ... but i using ubuntu (Linux) ... i see some reviews for android on iphone | 17:44 |
| thiago_home | jailbroken means that the iPhone OS inside has been hacked | 17:44 |
| GAN800 | No | 17:44 |
| thiago_home | that's a long way from being able to install a new OS on it | 17:44 |
| GAN800 | TI does not make iPhone parts | 17:44 |
| Termana | Bersam, 3GS won't work | 17:44 |
| GAN800 | They're all Samsung | 17:44 |
| Termana | It's only the 2G or 3G that has the ability to boot Linux | 17:45 |
| GAN800 | Even A4 is basically Samsung | 17:45 |
| thiago_home | Termana: what hardware are they? | 17:45 |
| RST38h | Booting Linux on iPhone is a desecration of a religious symbol | 17:45 |
| Bersam | Termana: oh ... also i have another device ... ipod touch 3G ... | 17:45 |
| GAN800 | Samsung ARM11 | 17:45 |
| Termana | thiago_home, some Samsung ARM11 stuff. GLESv1 only | 17:45 |
| Termana | 1.1* | 17:45 |
| thiago_home | that's also a dealbreaker | 17:45 |
| thiago_home | MeeGo requires GLESv2 | 17:46 |
| Termana | Well, not really | 17:46 |
| thiago_home | officially, at least | 17:46 |
| Termana | But, its better to tell people that | 17:46 |
| thiago_home | in any case, if it's ARM11 you need the ARMv5 build, the one that is turned off | 17:46 |
| thiago_home | temporarily | 17:47 |
| Termana | Is there any ARMv5 devices with GLESv2 though? :P | 17:48 |
| thiago_home | I don't know | 17:48 |
| thiago_home | to be frank, I don't know why we do have an ARMv5 build | 17:48 |
| RST38h | Because someone may just want to run meego on an ARMv5 device? | 17:49 |
| Bersam | thiago_home: my ipodtouch cpu is this 3rd generation: ARM Cortex-A8 833Â MHz (underclocked to 600Â MHz) | 17:49 |
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| Stskeeps | v6 makes more sense | 17:49 |
| Bersam | thiago_home: not ARM11 | 17:49 |
| thiago_home | that's ARMv7 | 17:49 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: historical thing, we bootsttrapped off fedora arm | 17:50 |
| Termana | Bersam, your ipod touch won't work either | 17:50 |
| Termana | Unless you have the skills necessary to find a boot exploit in it AND port the linux kernel to it | 17:50 |
| thiago_home | Termana: so there is a known exploit for the first two generations? | 17:51 |
| Bersam | Termana: oh ... can i run it on virtual machine on my PC ? or an emulator ? | 17:51 |
| Bersam | Termana: i don't want that netbook edition ... i want to have MeeGo (mobile edition (like n900)) on my PC or any other devices :) | 17:52 |
| Termana | thiago_home, right, the iPhone 2G and 3G have bootrom exploits, and I believe a limited amount of 3GS' do as well. iPod Touches, I believe is only the 1G ipod touch, possibly the 2G ipod touch. | 17:52 |
| Termana | And then its only the 2G, 3G and 1G ipod touch that the idroid project has ported the linux kernel to | 17:53 |
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| Termana | To my knowledge, at least. Things might have changed since I last looked, but I don't think so. | 17:53 |
| thiago_home | Bersam: you can run the handset edition | 17:54 |
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| kyb3R | damn, I'd like to have semantic extensions in the wiki... | 18:22 |
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| lolloo | hellooo0oo meego fans | 18:45 |
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| lolloo | any news on it comming out official? | 18:46 |
| sofar | 1.0 was released | 18:46 |
| sofar | what are you looking for? | 18:46 |
| lolloo | meego on N900, | 18:47 |
| sofar | it works, it's not usable just yet | 18:48 |
| lolloo | alright, thanks mate | 18:48 |
| Jucato | hello! while on the topic, may I ask something? As long as there is no other "official" device yet, will the N900 be the reference device for MeeGo Handset UX? | 18:49 |
| Jucato | or phrased alternatively, how long can we (or I :) hope/expect MeeGo Handset UX to work on the N900? | 18:50 |
| CosmoHill | hey sofar | 18:50 |
| Termana | Jucato, the N900 is a reference device period. | 18:50 |
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| Jucato | Termana: thank you | 18:51 |
| Termana | There is no intentions to at some point remove it as a reference device, but I expect it will happen eventually especially as minimum hardware specs go up for compliance purposes. | 18:51 |
| Termana | point to remove* | 18:51 |
| Jucato | I see. hopefully that's not gonna happen yet very soon (like next month?) :) | 18:52 |
| Termana | Jucato, no, not soon. | 18:53 |
| Termana | You'll definitely see the N900 as a reference device for the 1.1 release and most likely the 1.2 release. 1.3 is anybody's guess at this stage, since its not planned for/on the roadmap. | 18:54 |
| Jucato | awesome | 18:54 |
| vgrade | http://wiki.meego.com/images/Nexus3.jpg | 18:57 |
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| CosmoHill | vgrade: what evil have you done now | 19:00 |
| Termana | lol | 19:00 |
| CosmoHill | that looks nice | 19:00 |
| lolloo | hahaha | 19:00 |
| lolloo | hi Termana | 19:00 |
| th0br0 | sweet, vgrade | 19:01 |
| lolloo | I didnt like it | 19:01 |
| Termana | As soon as he uploads his rootfs, I can take out the Nexus One specific bits and put in the HTC Desire bits :P | 19:02 |
| CosmoHill | vgrade: what camera do you have? | 19:02 |
| lolloo | does it take long time? | 19:02 |
| Termana | lolloo, for you, yes, it takes longer than you'll live. | 19:04 |
| lolloo | hahahaha | 19:04 |
| lolloo | you are immortal Termana | 19:04 |
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| CosmoHill | vgrade: oo that's sneezy, if I don't zoom in it looks like that info is on the screen but you've added it with paint | 19:06 |
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| RST38h | OMH unspeakable, Meego on a Nexus! At this rate, you will end up installing it to iPhone ;) | 19:09 |
| CosmoHill | mmm, usable bluetooth on the iphone | 19:10 |
| Jucato | it does somewhat address something I've always been wondering about: I always see talk about running Android on the N900, but wonder why there's very little about running MeeGo on Android phones | 19:10 |
| CosmoHill | only apple can cock up bluetooth | 19:10 |
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| wmarone | vgrade: obvious question about the video, does it have the requisite hardware support? | 19:11 |
| Termana | wmarone, at the moment, its running with software rendering | 19:12 |
| wmarone | ok | 19:12 |
| wmarone | that is impressive though | 19:13 |
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| vgrade | CosmoHill 300D | 19:13 |
| vgrade | wmarone, basic msm fb at the moment but working on the aurora driver | 19:14 |
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| CosmoHill | hey thiago_- | 19:16 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: who was it that suggested compliant repos instead of packages? | 19:34 |
| lbt | not sure ... | 19:35 |
| Stskeeps | i've been brewing a bit on it and i've come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with this issue is a meego.com 'surrounds' that contains APIs for potential inclusion in MeeGo and has same mandatory maintaince as meego features | 19:36 |
| lcuk | where does things like open office etc lie in all this packaging stuff btw | 19:36 |
| lcuk | we have been concentrating on the specific uplift from maemo specific packages, but what about the general OSS favorite toys for the netbook | 19:37 |
| lcuk | they have same kind of problem I assume | 19:37 |
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| lcuk | can I get gimp on appup? | 19:37 |
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| hell_ | hi all. Stskeeps, are you here? | 19:38 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: I don't think we*'ve been concentrating on Maemo packages, except where using them as examples. | 19:38 |
| wmarone | is it just me or does the "preferred" method of packaging applications described in the thread strike anyone else like Mac OS X software's tendency to drag along separate copies of commonly used 3rd party libraries? | 19:39 |
| hell_ | does anybody boots from n810 meego image? | 19:39 |
| lcuk | jaffa sure | 19:39 |
| lcuk | and we have the maemo community stuff as a really good available set of examples :) | 19:40 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Not good enough, it'd seem | 19:40 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: liq* plugins wouldn't be compliant. | 19:40 |
| Jaffa | Actually, there's another point - no plugin system can be compliant. | 19:41 |
| Jaffa | Massive swathes of possible functionality wiped out | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | hell_: yes? | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | hell_: meego n810 is on hold as armv5 builds were disabled | 19:41 |
| lcuk | jaffa this was said initially | 19:41 |
| lcuk | things like angry birds level addon packs | 19:41 |
| lcuk | fall into the plugins category | 19:42 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Ah, I missed that initial point | 19:42 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: indeed | 19:42 |
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| hell_ | Stskeeps: i try to boot from mmc, flashed by your prepared image. but initfs failed to boot( | 19:42 |
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| Stskeeps | hell_: initfs shouldn't boot at all | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | kernel boots straight to mmc | 19:43 |
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| lcuk | jaffa, since you need angry birds to get the level packs | 19:43 |
| lcuk | they need to have a way of doing it | 19:43 |
| hell_ | Stskeeps: so, i need boot a kernel by flasher, then kernel run init from ext mmc? | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | right | 19:44 |
| berndhs | Jaffa: plugins are non-compliant ? so no Qt-Sql support then, those are all plugins ? | 19:44 |
| Jaffa | berndhs: A plugin, by definition, depends on something else. If that "something" else isn't in the corep the plugin cannot be MeeGo Compliant with the intention behind the draft spec | 19:47 |
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| lcuk | tsg meeting where this was announced, the angry birds issue was raised | 19:48 |
| Jaffa | berndhs: I don't know how Qt-Sql works, but since Qt is in the core, Qt-Sql could be packaged as a compliant pkg. However, nothing could depend on Qt-Sql and then be compliant itself, but that's the argument for shared libraries | 19:48 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Ah, I tend to miss TSG meetings due to travelling and limited sense of value. | 19:49 |
| CosmoHill | vgrade: kudos btw for your work | 19:49 |
| hell_ | it does) | 19:49 |
| berndhs | Qt-Sql drivers are all plugins, Qt-Sql by itself supports nothing | 19:49 |
| lcuk | ahh well tho | 19:49 |
| hell_ | to nice blak screen | 19:49 |
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| hell_ | aaaahh, it loading. | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | hell_: wait a while | 19:49 |
| hell_ | yeah, i see | 19:50 |
| berndhs | but Qt-Sql is going to be in the core, so that's not an issue | 19:50 |
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| berndhs | however, the repo system doesn't check presence or absense of plugins | 19:50 |
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| berndhs | so installing an app that depends even on a qualified plugin doesn't guarantee that it will work | 19:51 |
| berndhs | this qualified-apps-will-work-everywhere idea is so full of holes, it's not even funny | 19:52 |
| hell_ | Stskeeps: as i understand, it hold in state without nokia internal drivers for keyb, charger, etc? | 19:52 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, individual liq* modules are standalone you recall :) | 19:52 |
| lcuk | its not really anything to do with plugins | 19:52 |
| hell_ | and what are you mean under "build in disabled", obs builds? | 19:53 |
| lcuk | just when it finds the other components on the same system it will use them :) | 19:53 |
| lcuk | but any kind of library is going to have problem for practically any app | 19:54 |
| * lcuk ponders looking at something | 19:54 | |
| lcuk | number of pure qt apps vs qt apps with extra dependencies | 19:54 |
| * lcuk bets most will use the extra dependencies | 19:55 | |
| Stskeeps | hell_: basically | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | hell_: keyboard is there but not configured, i think | 19:55 |
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| lcuk | Jaffa, since clutter is on the netbook image | 19:56 |
| lcuk | can it be depended upon for meego in general? | 19:57 |
| hell_ | i hear, that somebody has it's own obs. Does it really possible, to create separate obs for n8x0 meego? | 19:57 |
| sofar | lcuk: no, there will probably not be clutter in handset images | 19:58 |
| lcuk | but but but, its in core! | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | hell_: yes, but we would probably do a ARMv6+VFP one instead | 19:58 |
| lcuk | so an app certified for meego netbook usage (since it complies) will not run on meego handset | 19:59 |
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| hell_ | Stskeeps: i thnk, that 2420 is already v6, it can run v5 code for compatibility? | 20:02 |
| sofar | certification does not exist, only compliance | 20:02 |
| lcuk | reasonable enough | 20:03 |
| sofar | second, netbook app compliance would have to be MTF based | 20:03 |
| lcuk | so its not app compliance | 20:03 |
| sofar | the fact that parts of the current netbook UX use clutter doesn't mean that apps are | 20:03 |
| sofar | netbook apps should be MTF | 20:04 |
| lcuk | so MTF works on netbook? | 20:04 |
| lcuk | i know people are porting it to ubuntu | 20:04 |
| hell_ | so, armv6 will break 770 support of meego? i think, 770 is too old for it) | 20:04 |
| sofar | at work I have it running on several netbook sized machines | 20:04 |
| sofar | hell_: perhaps #meego-arm is more suitable for that discussion | 20:04 |
| sofar | but, could be quiet in there atm :) | 20:05 |
| lcuk | sofar, which OS are you running those on? | 20:05 |
| lcuk | and did you submit your patches back | 20:05 |
| sofar | lcuk: I do all my meego development ON meego | 20:05 |
| lcuk | :) good to hear at least one person is | 20:06 |
| hell_ | okay) | 20:06 |
| sofar | and, since I'm paid to work on MeeGo, you betcha I commit my code ;) | 20:06 |
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| lcuk | sofar, initially people did not run the qt ide on meego itself | 20:06 |
| lcuk | so you code on netbook? | 20:06 |
| sofar | no, but I test it | 20:07 |
| Stskeeps | hrm | 20:07 |
| sofar | I maintain large parts of the MeeGo base OS | 20:07 |
| Stskeeps | can RPM packages be signed? | 20:07 |
| lcuk | so do you use the sdk, or have installed the -dev packages onto netbook | 20:07 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: sure, yes | 20:07 |
| Stskeeps | well, as in, within-format | 20:07 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: yes | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | hrm | 20:08 |
| sofar | that's how rpm signing works | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | i'll have to google for that | 20:08 |
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| sofar | I'm not 100% sure on the details, but the signature is embedded afaik | 20:08 |
| lcuk | sofar, just for clarity you said you test on netbook | 20:09 |
| sofar | lcuk: I haven't had a need to install the UX sdk parts yet, my work is all below X | 20:09 |
| lcuk | where do you actuall compile stuff? | 20:09 |
| lcuk | on the netbook or in a VM? | 20:09 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: thanks | 20:09 |
| sofar | I test on netbook, handset CDK's, and my main dev system are a laptop and a i7 desktop | 20:09 |
| sofar | I do not ever work in VMs | 20:09 |
| sofar | VMs waste my time | 20:09 |
| lcuk | ok, so you do not actually have -dev libraries on your device for compiling | 20:09 |
| sofar | I do on my netbooks and laptop | 20:10 |
| lcuk | and your netbooks and laptop are running meego natively? | 20:10 |
| sofar | yes | 20:10 |
| lcuk | photos? | 20:10 |
| lcuk | :D | 20:10 |
| arfoll | sofar, why don't you just use OBS to compile your packages? | 20:10 |
| lcuk | and patches :P | 20:10 |
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| sofar | arfoll: local git compilation development process is a lot faster | 20:10 |
| lcuk | sofar, what spec machines are they | 20:10 |
| sofar | especially on my laptop | 20:10 |
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| arfoll | sofar, depends on the OBS.. | 20:11 |
| sofar | lenovo t400 all-intel HW, with SSD | 20:11 |
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| sofar | it's about equal to OBS, unless OBS is busy | 20:11 |
| sofar | then I win | 20:11 |
| sofar | that's meego's main OBS | 20:11 |
| lcuk | sofar, how do you find the panels system for organising your workflow? | 20:11 |
| sofar | of course, I'm inside the Intel corporate network so OBS access is slightly slow | 20:12 |
| lcuk | does the qt ide work well on it? | 20:12 |
| lcuk | or do you cheat and use console/vi? | 20:12 |
| sofar | like I said, I have no current need to work with the SDK/Qt IDE | 20:12 |
| sofar | I work on things like uxlaunch, sysvinit, dbus etc | 20:12 |
| lcuk | but you have the low level full complete sdk installed? | 20:13 |
| sofar | I can | 20:13 |
| lcuk | you can, or you do? | 20:13 |
| sofar | on my laptop I have almost every pattern installed | 20:13 |
| lcuk | its important, because until you just spoke, everyone said they use an external vm/cross compiling setup to do development work | 20:14 |
| lcuk | you are the first who I have heard doing it on the live OS | 20:14 |
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| lcuk | and its obviously interesting because if I could pickup a netbook with full sdk it can be hacked on | 20:14 |
| berndhs | golcuk: Arajan always says he works on meego directly | 20:14 |
| lcuk | just like people do with ubuntu etc | 20:14 |
| sofar | arjan and me have been advertising "eat your own dogfood" for a long time now | 20:15 |
| sofar | arjan works on meego too | 20:15 |
| arfoll | sofar, you obviously don't use your phones then ;-) | 20:15 |
| berndhs | sofar: i tried to type that, my fingers are cold | 20:15 |
| * lcuk checks backlog at some point | 20:15 | |
| sofar | arfoll: I do not have a mobile phone | 20:15 |
| arfoll | lol - not surprised | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: would you use a meego mobile phone? | 20:16 |
| lcuk | sofar, i spent the longest time doing full building entirely on n810 and then n900 | 20:16 |
| lcuk | i had windows and no happy scratchbox setup | 20:16 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: probably :) | 20:16 |
| lcuk | so I had to find a system which worked | 20:16 |
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| lcuk | hmmm meego default media player uses mono | 20:19 |
| lcuk | the dependency is being pulled in specifically for that package | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it's the other most-common-flamewar in meego ;) | 20:19 |
| lcuk | well that kinda makes it a mockery since the same media player might be wanted on handset! | 20:20 |
| lcuk | and shock the package has dependencies | 20:20 |
| lcuk | :O | 20:20 |
| sofar | ugh banshee is my bane | 20:22 |
| sofar | not to mention we used to have a upnp enabled player on netbook | 20:23 |
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| berndhs | Stskeeps: they just started this spec thread so people stop fighting about deb and mono | 20:26 |
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| lcuk | hrmwill qt sdk be on appup store? | 20:27 |
| lcuk | or ovi | 20:27 |
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| * Stskeeps sends off a proposal for the gordian knot and hides behind a rock | 20:37 | |
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| frals | lcuk: why would the sdk be in the store? O_o | 20:39 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: I'm still confused by the "...these dependencies can only be from the set of binary packages being built as part of the applications' source package." | 21:22 |
| Stskeeps | right | 21:22 |
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| Stskeeps | as in, the only other dependancies you can pull in from the installation source is packages generated by the same source package you come from | 21:23 |
| Stskeeps | so, let's say we have pulseaudio, which has pulseaudio (daemon) and -modules | 21:23 |
| Stskeeps | at installation time this would pull in both | 21:23 |
| Jaffa | Right, so it is the situation I described, albeit with s/.tar.gz/.srpm/ | 21:23 |
| Jaffa | ? | 21:23 |
| * Stskeeps ponders how to show it with an actual example | 21:24 | |
| Stskeeps | ok, first off, we have a plain meego application: this would only use dependancies from meego core | 21:24 |
| lcuk | how does that effect good scientific study work like fcamera? | 21:24 |
| lcuk | does that have to have its root dependencies in qt | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | however, given traditional packaging, we might want to split our application into multiple subpackages | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | and these having dependancies between eachother | 21:25 |
| lcuk | or can it be based on v4l2 or get or whatever it uses | 21:25 |
| lcuk | gst | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | we don't want to allow let's say "just because SDL is in the 'installation source', we can depend on it" | 21:25 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: That's exactly what some of us do want. | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i know - but how do you handle the scenario where there's multiple SDL versions and variants? | 21:26 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: So that we don't have to do work about porting, packaging and maintaining SDL if someone else already has. | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | i agree with that, but in this, i would put it in Staging | 21:26 |
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| Stskeeps | and indicate "this guy is maintaining it" | 21:27 |
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| Stskeeps | ideally we wouldn't have any other dependancies than our 'own' application packages and meego core + profile + staging | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | the alternative is chaos | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | there's merit to both 'sides''s positions, and this is a middle way | 21:31 |
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| lcuk | how does it work with openoffice? | 21:34 |
| lcuk | or gimp? | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | there's a problem with plugins, i agree with that | 21:35 |
| lcuk | two massive applications people think of with linux and expect to be available | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: put them in the 'meego community appstore' | 21:35 |
| lcuk | is there a meego mall? | 21:36 |
| lcuk | where I can go to get all the apps I want? | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | there will be many different | 21:37 |
| arjan | I think meego calls that "garage" not "mall" | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | well, Community Application Support at last name.. garage is sometimes used though | 21:38 |
| lcuk | I always said I would make an app-store-store one day | 21:38 |
| lcuk | looks like it will be needed | 21:38 |
| lcuk | so to get the meego community store | 21:39 |
| lcuk | it would need to be an app available from the other stores | 21:39 |
| lcuk | to add the icon | 21:39 |
| lcuk | or will the meego community store be available ? | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | dunno, do we have any apps yet? ;) | 21:39 |
| arjan | moblin had this sort of thing | 21:39 |
| lcuk | sure there are | 21:39 |
| lcuk | meego reference ones are community | 21:39 |
| arjan | dunno why it didn't move over | 21:39 |
| arjan | the whole infrastructure was there | 21:40 |
| lcuk | just wait until people start forking them | 21:40 |
| lcuk | arjan, the maemo one had 10million downloads last month | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: i think it's still there with the open collaboration services and so on | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | just in a different form | 21:40 |
| lcuk | if anything its getting stronger | 21:40 |
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| Stskeeps | arjan: at least i see people here discussing it often | 21:41 |
| lcuk | isnt gitorious the meego version of garage | 21:41 |
| arjan | nope | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: term confusion - garage in moblin was for downloading applications | 21:41 |
| arjan | gitorious is git for developers | 21:41 |
| sofar | lol | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | in maemo it was for application development | 21:41 |
| sofar | arjan: mornin' | 21:41 |
| arjan | mogge | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | (garage.maemo.org for reference..) | 21:42 |
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| sofar | we used to code on git.moblin.org for moblin, and just decided to go to a public place with the source code | 21:42 |
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| arjan | sofar: the systemd discussion is .. interesting | 21:42 |
| sofar | systemd? | 21:42 |
| sofar | haven't read the lists in 3 days | 21:42 |
| sofar | feeling a bit better though | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: i wouldn't start if you'd like a quiet weekend :) | 21:43 |
| arjan | it seems people don't realize that, yes, JIT is a good paradigm (as shown in manufacturing).. but it means *done* just in time, not *start* when needed | 21:43 |
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| arjan | systemd is inside out in that sense... and somehow people drink its coolaid anyway and don't see the big architectural gap in it | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | my personal worry is that i wouldn't want several important system daemons maintained by the same person, as there will always end up with less maintainer time for each daemon.. | 21:44 |
| * Jaffa foods. | 21:44 | |
| sofar | well | 21:45 |
| * sofar thinks | 21:45 | |
| arjan | the idea of having things done just in time is nice | 21:45 |
| arjan | but it needs to be *finished* just in time. | 21:45 |
| arjan | not *start* right when you need it | 21:46 |
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| arjan | because then you are guaranteed to stall .. which is bad | 21:46 |
| arjan | kinda a worst case | 21:46 |
| sofar | up until now we can get away with sysvinit extremely well because we're a very specific distribution | 21:47 |
| sofar | that's not going to change soon | 21:47 |
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| arjan | I'm not saying it's an easy problem ;) | 21:47 |
| arjan | but making a solution that is architectually completely guaranteed worst case is also not good ;) | 21:48 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: isn't d-bus activation kinda like that too? | 21:48 |
| arjan | it is | 21:48 |
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| arjan | dbus activation for things you KNOW you need is thus a disaster | 21:48 |
| arjan | dbus activation for things you almost never need is just fine and an acceptable tradeoff | 21:48 |
| arjan | but for things you always need... not so much | 21:48 |
| sofar | hence uxlaunch becoming a platform for desktop startup much more than it already was | 21:48 |
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| CosmoHill | hey arjan | 21:48 |
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| sofar | heh, didn't know systemd got punted to fc15 either | 21:50 |
| sofar | I get sick 2 days and miss all that :) | 21:50 |
| lcuk | arjan, will the qt sdk be compatible with the rules for applications? how about plugins for it (do they exist) | 21:51 |
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| lcuk | ie, can I install the IDE itself | 21:51 |
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| lcuk | on netbook | 21:51 |
| arjan | should be yes | 21:51 |
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| arjan | assuming the netbook OS you use is meego compliant ;-) | 21:51 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: that's the replacement for init right? | 21:51 |
| lcuk | arjan, thinking meego | 21:52 |
| sofar | CosmoHill: sysvinit/upstart/systemd/etc yes | 21:52 |
| CosmoHill | ah interesting | 21:52 |
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| CosmoHill | I only have experience with sysvinit | 21:52 |
| lcuk | arjan, how will the stores know they are being contacted by a compliant OS? | 21:52 |
| nitro424 | i want to create a meego mythtv package. mythtv requires the qt-sql-driver /usr/lib/qt4/plugibs/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so which is not privided by any meego package. is it a bug? i forced the system to install the fedora 11 qt-mysql package but this cant be a solution | 21:53 |
| arjan | lcuk: the person deploying the OS also deploys the store... | 21:53 |
| sofar | nitro424: not a bug | 21:53 |
| lcuk | ahhh | 21:53 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: what does meego use? | 21:53 |
| wmarone | speaking of stores, are they linked or are they all independent? | 21:53 |
| lcuk | arjan, so the stores are physical apps run on the device itself :) | 21:53 |
| sofar | nitro424: we don't have mysql in meego atm | 21:53 |
| arjan | lcuk: assume device model..not computer deployment model | 21:53 |
| sofar | nitro424: hence, qt won't have mysql bindings | 21:53 |
| arjan | lcuk: generally yes | 21:53 |
| arjan | nitro424: using fedora packages on meego..not generally a good idea | 21:53 |
| nitro424 | it works with the fedora package | 21:53 |
| nitro424 | but its dirty | 21:54 |
| lcuk | arjan, I try not to make ssumptions | 21:54 |
| lcuk | a | 21:54 |
| sofar | CosmoHill: sysvinit with heavy modifications to bypass certain slow parts of a traditional sysvinit setup | 21:54 |
| sofar | well | 21:54 |
| nitro424 | even the qt4 sql demo browser works with it :) | 21:54 |
| arjan | our init is from sysvinit | 21:54 |
| sofar | bypass *all* parts needed really :) | 21:54 |
| arjan | the actual bootflow is not | 21:54 |
| sofar | meego is fully sysvinit compatible but doesn't itself use much of it | 21:54 |
| nitro424 | is it planed to include mysql into meego? | 21:54 |
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| lcuk | its not yoursql | 21:55 |
| sofar | nitro424: no, not on the roadmap | 21:55 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: ah I remember reading about that in the link you gave me about the 5 second boot | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | nitro424: bugs.meego.com , search for [FEA] | 21:55 |
| CosmoHill | why would a netbook need mysql? | 21:55 |
| sofar | basically meego removes every init.d script that distro's usually have and provides a fast path for getting those services up | 21:55 |
| nitro424 | i will do that | 21:55 |
| sofar | CosmoHill: to run mythtv lol | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | CosmoHill: mythtv uses it extensively | 21:56 |
| nitro424 | i use the netbook in the bathrottm for watching tv | 21:56 |
| sofar | it would need at least a client to run mythfrontend on a meego netbook etc | 21:56 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, mysql is invaluable for small scale fast database uses | 21:56 |
| nitro424 | there are a lot of reasons i think | 21:56 |
| * CosmoHill reframes from commenting on that | 21:56 | |
| Stskeeps | sofar: we run into that often and we're not as skilled in the meego way.. do we have some docs on recommended ways to use instead of init.d? | 21:56 |
| lcuk | it would be needed at very least for firefox | 21:56 |
| sofar | I'm not sure if we can package or have at least the mysqlclient code | 21:56 |
| lcuk | cos some of the database stuff inside it is? | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: i'm getting rather cautious over the amount of init.d's we have on n900, hence my question | 21:56 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: short answer: ask me to do it - I own that part of meego | 21:57 |
| sofar | absolutely, we need to poke at all of those | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | nitro424: do you need live streaming? cos you can do everything else with mythweb... | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: :nod: putting it on my todo - thanks | 21:57 |
| CosmoHill | but if we learn we can do it for ourselfs | 21:57 |
| nitro424 | i want to build a client but it really needs mysql | 21:57 |
| bef0rd | lcuk, Firefox uses sqlite | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | or upnp players now for that matter | 21:57 |
| lcuk | bef0rd, ahhh ahhhh fair enough | 21:58 |
| * lcuk mixed them up! | 21:58 | |
| sofar | CosmoHill: problem with me explaining everything to everyone is that people start hacking it to shreds and there goes the fast boot ;) | 21:58 |
| nitro424 | hmm i have an easy mythtv installation without mythweb and stuff | 21:58 |
| lcuk | thanks for clarification | 21:58 |
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| lcuk | will sqlite be available? | 21:58 |
| lcuk | :D | 21:58 |
| sofar | bef0rd: mythtv only works with mysql afaik | 21:58 |
| sofar | sqlite is supported | 21:58 |
| nitro424 | sqlite is available | 21:58 |
| nitro424 | yes | 21:58 |
| lcuk | dependable? | 21:58 |
| lcuk | as in "core" | 21:58 |
| sofar | yes | 21:58 |
| ali1234 | yes, mythtv needs to talk to the database running on backend, so it needs a network capable DB | 21:58 |
| arjan | afaik sqlite ends up in the architectural set | 21:58 |
| lcuk | what if it has a security update! | 21:58 |
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| sofar | several key base components need sqlite | 21:58 |
| lcuk | or version problems? | 21:59 |
| lcuk | multiple versions etc | 21:59 |
| sofar | file a bug </hides> | 21:59 |
| nitro424 | mythtv compiles without problems. i could use it locally but i have a server/client arch | 21:59 |
| lcuk | all the bumf given about other packages | 21:59 |
| sofar | seriously, a bug would be interestign against sqlite to see if we've covered sqlite db upgrades etc. | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | arjan: by the way, we had a booting to ux btrfs image on n900 using mic2 | 22:00 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, I notice from logs earlier btw, you once said you had calling from n900 on mer | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: no, i didn't | 22:00 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: nice | 22:00 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: good | 22:00 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | we need to verify nothing breaks, but it actually seemed more performing.. | 22:00 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: I would think btrfs is nice for n900 because it can make 1 fs over the two storage blocks | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's nice because we don't have to cp big buck bunny on first boot, too | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:00 |
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| Stskeeps | (thanks sofar) | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: kudos | 22:01 |
| lcuk | Stskeepsarjan: we made a ofono dialing on Mer on n900, shouldn't be that far off :) | 22:01 |
| lcuk | actually Stskeeps, you did | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: got terms messed up | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | i meant meego | 22:02 |
| nitro424 | there is already a feature request for mysql. i dont have to do that :) | 22:02 |
| lcuk | that was feb 18th | 22:02 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: haha | 22:02 |
| lcuk | and we didnt have meego then | 22:02 |
| lcuk | can you recall which version of mer it was? | 22:02 |
| sofar | well at least mic2 makes btrfs images now | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: oh, dialing.. yes - 7 months off ;) | 22:03 |
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| sofar | I can start looking at cool features using it :) | 22:03 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm probably going to enjoy snapshots for development | 22:04 |
| sofar | I run automated snapshots on most my systems now | 22:04 |
| sofar | best rm -rf guard ever | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 22:05 |
| sofar | but, there are a ton cool things we can do with it: | 22:05 |
| sofar | - factory reset a device | 22:05 |
| sofar | - OS upgrades, or downgrades! | 22:05 |
| CosmoHill | for some reason I was about to ask if sofar used VS2010 :/ | 22:06 |
| sofar | imagine this: with extlinux, you can boot any number of linux operating systems from -the-same-btrfs-partition- | 22:07 |
| sofar | CosmoHill: lol! last time I used VS was .... *counts* back in 1999 or so :) | 22:07 |
| CosmoHill | dude I wasn't even in highschool in 1999 | 22:07 |
| CosmoHill | the only reason I have VS2010 is so I can import my code and get an instant UML class diagram | 22:08 |
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| RST38h | and you obviously NEED UMLclassdiagrams? | 22:09 |
| CosmoHill | I might give systemd a go on my next LFS build | 22:09 |
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| Stskeeps | i think we also need some discussion on directory setup on handset and such.. and if people will want to have their documents / home directory exported over USB and so on | 22:09 |
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| CosmoHill | RST38h: is got us extra points in our assignment | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | in maemo we have this 'MyDocs' setup which is a bit ugly but gets the job done.. | 22:09 |
| RST38h | Oh, your assignment... | 22:09 |
| CosmoHill | RST38h: yes, i've a full time student | 22:10 |
| RST38h | But for all practical purposes...? | 22:10 |
| CosmoHill | this was my C++ assignment I've been talking about in the channel a fair bit at the time | 22:10 |
| sofar | Stskeeps: that's an ongoing debate - I'd like to keep xdg compliance but the user's home could live on vfat for USB connectivity purposes | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | sofar: i'm wondering how badly things would react to anything in /home/meego being inaccessible.. | 22:11 |
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| Stskeeps | anything/everything | 22:11 |
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| sofar | Stskeeps: it's prolly gonna splode all over :) | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | could we make it xdg compliant by having let's say, /home/meego/MyDocs/Documents, etc? i mean, xdg-user-dirs are there for a reason.. | 22:12 |
| sofar | but, the vfat would be on the same storage as the rest of the image | 22:12 |
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| Stskeeps | (not only l10n) | 22:12 |
| sofar | we could | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | still a can of worms though.. | 22:13 |
| sofar | or we'd move other stuff out of /home/meego | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | as we'd have to signal to apps they can't access these parts of system | 22:13 |
| sofar | yup | 22:13 |
| sofar | still an unsolved problem | 22:14 |
| * CosmoHill gets a cup of tea to read the systemd post | 22:14 | |
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| lcuk | forget things not existing at one point | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | or take the easy way out and lock screen and show 'usb mass storage mode in progress' ;) | 22:16 |
| lcuk | its people vaping stuff from windows | 22:16 |
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| lcuk | thats funner | 22:16 |
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| smithna | Hi, without starting a flame war... What is/are the plans for using/including mono for apps other than banshee? | 22:40 |
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| lcuk | as long as you can embed the whole thing inside your application, you are good to go | 22:41 |
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| sofar | I'll work hard to get mono *out* of all MeeGo builds | 22:41 |
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| lcuk | why? | 22:41 |
| smithna | why is that? | 22:41 |
| sofar | cuz I just flipped a coin and it came up heads | 22:42 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 22:42 |
| CosmoHill | I believe him :) | 22:42 |
| sofar | seriously, mono shouldn't be in MeeGo in the first place | 22:42 |
| lcuk | good reason why not? | 22:42 |
| * smithna guesses *heads* is as good as any | 22:43 | |
| sofar | well, It gives me the legal creeps | 22:43 |
| wmarone | is mono compatible with .NET 4? | 22:43 |
| sofar | haha and questions like that | 22:43 |
| lcuk | sofar, what about official .net? | 22:44 |
| lcuk | supposing a build was made from microsoft | 22:44 |
| lcuk | would you fight as hard? | 22:44 |
| sofar | anything that smells of microsoft is probably better avoided for an open source distribution | 22:44 |
| lcuk | hahaha | 22:44 |
| wmarone | lcuk: in official meego? | 22:44 |
| wmarone | I could see a vendor deciding to include it on their own device, but... | 22:45 |
| sofar | my daddy told me to not walk around with a sign saying "drop bomb here" on my t-shirt | 22:45 |
| lcuk | sofar, openness extends beyond code. | 22:45 |
| sofar | lcuk: openness has to be both sides | 22:45 |
| lcuk | i can run mono on other open source linux distributions | 22:45 |
| lcuk | whether I like to isnt down to me | 22:45 |
| wmarone | I'll wait for MS to start dropping vague threats regarding mono against MeeGo using OEMs ;) | 22:45 |
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| wmarone | or anything, really | 22:46 |
| lcuk | wmarone, you do know that mono will be used in the default meego media player | 22:46 |
| wmarone | I'm aware of that | 22:47 |
| wmarone | I don't like it | 22:47 |
| sofar | only for netbook | 22:47 |
| lcuk | you make it sound like netbook isn't meego | 22:47 |
| lcuk | if its good enough for the core os to use | 22:48 |
| lcuk | then it should be good enough for applications? | 22:48 |
| sofar | netbook has an odd history, and not all the components are what they should be | 22:48 |
| sofar | unfortunately, there's nobody working on an MTF-based netbook UX | 22:48 |
| lcuk | yes, its more open and flexible from what I see and hear | 22:48 |
| smithna | well, it's not good enough for *core* (mono packages aren't included in that part) | 22:48 |
| sofar | which would be the preferable solution | 22:48 |
| lcuk | well there is in a way | 22:48 |
| lcuk | libmeegotouch is being compiled for ubuntu | 22:49 |
| lcuk | someone was in hte other night playing | 22:49 |
| lcuk | so all the meegotouch goodness will be usable on everything :D | 22:49 |
| sofar | sure, MTF works on a netbook | 22:49 |
| sofar | it doesn't actually make a compelling netbook UX | 22:49 |
| lcuk | yeah cos theres little in the way of touchability | 22:49 |
| * lcuk understands this better than you imagine | 22:50 | |
| johnx | ah, that's very good news | 22:50 |
| lcuk | johnx, did you ever rebuild mer on wii? | 22:51 |
| johnx | nope | 22:51 |
| johnx | but that is the first thing I thought of ;) | 22:51 |
| lcuk | will be meego now | 22:51 |
| smithna | talking touchability... I asked about mono because of a frontend for carpcs' that is using it. I wanted to see how/if that would integrate with the IVI plans | 22:51 |
| lcuk | yeah | 22:51 |
| lcuk | shouldnt IVI be on the same compliancy path? | 22:51 |
| smithna | IVI seems to be lagging behind the other parts of meego, and I haven't seen much discussion about it | 22:53 |
| lcuk | well it was a big part of last weeks tsg | 22:53 |
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| johnx | sorry, IVI? | 22:53 |
| lcuk | in vehicle infotainment i believe | 22:54 |
| lcuk | or somesuch | 22:54 |
| smithna | http://meego.com/downloads/releases/1.0/meego-v1.0-in-vehicle-infotainment-ivi | 22:54 |
| Stskeeps | smithna: a lot of political discussion i think | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | smithna: same with tablet market | 22:55 |
| ALoGeNo | hey the quemu image dont have X? | 22:55 |
| ALoGeNo | and the keyb dont work? | 22:55 |
| ALoGeNo | qemu* | 22:55 |
| ALoGeNo | and hello :) | 22:55 |
| johnx | aah, thanks | 22:56 |
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| sofar | MeeGo's UX is totally different | 22:56 |
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| sofar | IVI generally isn't touch-focused | 22:56 |
| sofar | and the professional vendors behind that work on their own UX's | 22:57 |
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| smithna | What I've been struggling to figure out is if meego will be a viable solution for carpc hobbiest (those of us wanting to use linux, that is) | 22:57 |
| sofar | IVI does have a reference Qt-based UX | 22:57 |
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| * smithna has the IVI release running on his carpc | 22:58 | |
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| lcuk | speaking of cars | 22:58 |
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| lcuk | modern ones now are mostly computerised? | 22:58 |
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| lcuk | can something be plugged in and actually have access to all the switches and knob settings? | 22:59 |
| smithna | pretty much | 22:59 |
| lcuk | ie for fan control or even stereo? | 22:59 |
| lcuk | indicators etc | 22:59 |
| smithna | Look at the CAN bus | 22:59 |
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| lcuk | its a general question | 22:59 |
| sofar | depends on the design, but, theoretically, yes | 22:59 |
| lcuk | i will accept your first answer :) | 22:59 |
| lcuk | awesome then | 23:00 |
| lcuk | so no need to replace the good solid valuable real interface with a new one | 23:00 |
| smithna | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_area_network | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: fuel mix yes, stereo control no | 23:00 |
| lcuk | ali1234, thats engine management | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | yes | 23:00 |
| lcuk | i was thinking dashboard interaction | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | that's what CAN bus is for | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | oh dear, i just signed one of my mails as 'Carstem Unk' | 23:01 |
| * Stskeeps ponders if it's time to sleep | 23:01 | |
| ali1234 | dashboard interaction... not so much | 23:01 |
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| ali1234 | lcuk: you might be interested in nokia.com/terminalmode though | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: you're forgetting the case where we have two SDLs and one of them has ogg disabled for patent fear reasons | 23:01 |
| ali1234 | not that any cars have it yet | 23:01 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, 2 different versions | 23:02 |
| lcuk | its not forgetting anything | 23:02 |
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| Stskeeps | lcuk: this has actually been seen in extras | 23:02 |
| lcuk | and you have repository priority for that anyway | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | yes, but repository priority is hard for the wild west :) | 23:02 |
| lcuk | there is no wild west | 23:02 |
| lcuk | Core -> profile -> Store -> Item | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | how can you prioritise app repo 1 vs app repo 2? | 23:03 |
| lcuk | and I like the Profile term | 23:03 |
| lcuk | it embodies that middle grey part | 23:03 |
| smithna | ali1234: there are ways to interact with a car stereo (depending on the brand) | 23:03 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, I am buying an app from Tesco app store | 23:03 |
| lcuk | the dependencies cannot say to use Asda in that case | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | who says the SDL from Tesco doesn't conflict with the one from Nokia? | 23:03 |
| lcuk | but it can pickup stuff from tesco shelves happily | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | in case you buy one from there | 23:03 |
| lcuk | versions | 23:03 |
| lcuk | and the App store running on specific devices | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | version's don't mean shit in this regard.. | 23:04 |
| ali1234 | smithna: sure, but i figure lcuk wants something more like controlling his phone with the steering wheel (not while in motion though i hope) | 23:04 |
| lcuk | chumps even nokia! | 23:04 |
| lcuk | since nokia may not be the vendor | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | if it's the same source package but different ./configure .. | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | then it's darn hard to tell the difference, and it'd be only temporal | 23:04 |
| lcuk | so | 23:04 |
| lcuk | dependency chains | 23:04 |
| lcuk | you are making a problem out of nothingness | 23:04 |
| lcuk | this was solved long ago in every distro | 23:04 |
| lcuk | if its temporal then it really doesnt matter does it since the code is the same | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | versions doesn't solve if provider A and provider B provides different actual code/implementation | 23:05 |
| smithna | So, where can I read about the long term plans for meego? | 23:05 |
| smithna | specifically IVI | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | same source tarball, just different configure flags | 23:06 |
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| lcuk | then the first installed one wins for same version number | 23:06 |
| lcuk | cmon | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: this often affects ABI too | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | and now suddenly my game can't play ogg | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | => unsatified user | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | ABI or behaviour, for that matter | 23:06 |
| lcuk | why is a package offering different binaries given the same version ? | 23:07 |
| lcuk | changes are changes | 23:07 |
| lcuk | and require new versions | 23:07 |
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| lcuk | that was learnt in class 101 develment | 23:07 |
| lcuk | development even | 23:07 |
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| * lcuk missed 101 in spelling today | 23:07 | |
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| Stskeeps | it's very likely that if they make same increment in versions, the problem still exists. | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | thing is | 23:08 |
| lcuk | not really | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | they shouldn't both provide it! | 23:08 |
| lcuk | that problem is the compliancy thing | 23:08 |
| lcuk | and the later one that wants to break one already there | 23:08 |
| lcuk | should be the one that doesnt get to the store | 23:08 |
| johnx | the only perspective I can offer is from the debuntu world, and Stskeeps knows just as much about that as I do | 23:09 |
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| johnx | lcuk, yup. generally that's the way things go when happening inside of one repository | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | -one- | 23:10 |
| Stskeeps | except we're going to have a large bunch of app stores | 23:10 |
| johnx | exactly | 23:10 |
| Stskeeps | we have to regulate anarchy => compliance testing | 23:10 |
| johnx | s/regulate anarchy/herd cats/ | 23:10 |
| Stskeeps | and we start at the case where the user has to install a package, and it has to be done succesfully | 23:11 |
| Stskeeps | we cannot guarantee this without proper regulation | 23:12 |
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| johnx | so ANY package in ANY store MUST be installable on ANY device with ANY other number of packages installed? | 23:12 |
| lcuk | sigh | 23:12 |
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| lcuk | i believe thats the idea johnx | 23:12 |
| johnx | just a gut reaction here, but that sounds like some other problems that are NP complete ... | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: well, more specifically: any meego compliant package for a certain architecture and profile must install on that architecture and profile | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: which is a rather fair assumption | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: and subsequent compliant package installs should not break | 23:14 |
| johnx | 'profile' as in IVI, handset, tablet? | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | for instance | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | if it uses those APIs | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | there can be 'meego x86' which just uses plain qt or libmeegotouch, for instance | 23:14 |
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| Stskeeps | (profile not required) | 23:14 |
| lcuk | what happens when differences between versions happens across the profiles | 23:14 |
| lcuk | a version of sqlite thats core | 23:14 |
| lcuk | has to be tweaked in its configure part | 23:15 |
| lcuk | ;) | 23:15 |
| * johnx cracks open a spreadsheet | 23:15 | |
| Stskeeps | doesn't happen | 23:15 |
| lcuk | bullshit! | 23:15 |
| lcuk | theres differences between packages all over | 23:15 |
| Stskeeps | profiles build on top of core and doesn't replace core packages | 23:15 |
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| lcuk | so everything on core builds on both x86 and arm | 23:16 |
| lcuk | ? | 23:16 |
| lcuk | and the api across them is identical? | 23:16 |
| Stskeeps | basically | 23:16 |
| johnx | lcuk, it better | 23:16 |
| johnx | otherwise that's not a very sane cross-platform distro | 23:16 |
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| lcuk | ok, so meego netbook, would mono be inside the profile? | 23:18 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx: my premise is that we can only solve this problem by requiring dependancies to be fullfilled only by meego core, the specific meego profile, the package's own subpackages and an area that contains well-regulated APIs (with people responsible to maintain them) | 23:18 |
| johnx | I think that sounds reasonable | 23:18 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: for example, not sure where it's at atm | 23:18 |
| johnx | all those areas would have to be totally cross-platform, cross-profile and be version specific I think | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: :nod: | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | well-regulated APIs could technically be SDL and everything else - if you want to share your API with the world, take responsibility for it | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:20 |
| johnx | version-specific as in meego 1.1 should pull from one set, and meego 1.2 should pull from another | 23:20 |
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| lcuk | ok Stskeeps understandable actually | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | the thing is, everything else we can't test for, as we can't possibly know every combination of repos and packages | 23:20 |
| lcuk | I gather staging would need its own pre staging repositories (similar to maemo?) | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: right, there's a possibility for an entire sub-project in itself in it | 23:21 |
| lcuk | not for normal users - similar in manner to the -devel -testing etc | 23:21 |
| lcuk | agreed | 23:21 |
| johnx | soo, what does 'sub-packages' mean. is that just things built out of the same source package? | 23:21 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: yeah | 23:21 |
| lcuk | its where (for instance) a set of hildon interfaces could sit? | 23:21 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: for instance | 23:21 |
| lcuk | thats reasonable | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: i could extend it to be 'any packages not shared with other repositories' but that is largely untestable | 23:22 |
| lcuk | since it will also solve the issue of where the developers pool themselves towards | 23:22 |
| johnx | ok, so I'm joe-app developer now. I need SDL as a dependency. I don't want to maintain it for ARM, just use it on X86, so I pile their source into my source package as well, make a build script to build them both and now I've installed /usr/lib/libSDL.so | 23:22 |
| johnx | what happens when we get a 'real' libSDL into the 'contrib' area later? | 23:23 |
| lcuk | sdl apps would have to wait for some knowledable sdl maintainer to work on the packageset | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: well, we actually require packages to install into /opt/packagename or something.. | 23:23 |
| wmarone | this strikes me as a lot of extra effort and wasted space | 23:23 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, very MacOS X of you :) I like it :D | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: the hope is with the staging repo to discourage this | 23:24 |
| lcuk | wmarone, the staging area actually does sound reasonable | 23:24 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: I'm reading about systemd and it looks like there would be none to minimal benifit for my distro | 23:24 |
| lcuk | because it will draw those interested in sdl together to make sure it works "on meego" | 23:24 |
| lcuk | without worrying about which flavour it is | 23:24 |
| lcuk | they are concerned with all | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: they'll be required to, otherwise it wouldn't make it into staging | 23:24 |
| lcuk | that makes sense | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | ie, show interest, maintainers, people you can call.. | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | perhaps even an agreement to sign.. | 23:25 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:25 |
| * lcuk sighs @ more paperwork | 23:25 | |
| lcuk | we were playing with liqbase on x64 last night | 23:25 |
| lcuk | :) | 23:25 |
| johnx | ugh @ paperwork | 23:26 |
| lcuk | i was learning about all the pointer to int differences :) | 23:26 |
| johnx | though, gathering public keys is a nice way to go for signatures ;) | 23:26 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, ok | 23:26 |
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| Stskeeps | the downside is that we need to get an organisation up doing this Staging thing and i doubt we'll have it for 1.1 | 23:27 |
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| Stskeeps | bbl sleep | 23:27 |
| lcuk | we have technical staging now - the maemo way of doing it works for arm at least | 23:27 |
| johnx | 'night Stskeeps | 23:27 |
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| * johnx wonders what part of the world Stskeeps is in ... | 23:28 | |
| lcuk | and we could just get any maintainers interested to just start building their libraries on x86 and trying it ;) | 23:28 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, gnite | 23:28 |
| johnx | ah, nm. forgot how late in the day it was | 23:28 |
| lcuk | johnx, can we get meego running on wii please :P | 23:29 |
| johnx | I think the 'contributed packages' area could easily become bigger and have more complicated inter-dependencies than core+profile given a bit of time | 23:29 |
| lcuk | i want to use n900 as a remote control | 23:29 |
| johnx | lcuk, AFAIK, meego doesn't target PPC at all | 23:30 |
| lcuk | no, thats where it can be cleansed | 23:30 |
| johnx | targeting PPC in this day is kind of a lost cause I think | 23:30 |
| lcuk | core is the super tight system where the cleanest bits go | 23:30 |
| lcuk | fine, just run n900 onto tvout | 23:31 |
| johnx | or get a wiimote working with a normal machine ;) | 23:31 |
| lcuk | urg | 23:31 |
| * johnx looks up at the 'wii sensor bar' taped on top of his monitor :) | 23:31 | |
| lcuk | haha | 23:31 |
| lcuk | i have a triangle of LEDs on a cardboard cutout and some wires above my mouse | 23:32 |
| lbt | Jaffa: have you seen Mark's latest response. | 23:32 |
| lcuk | i am itching to change the colour of them to green and actually try using my n900 as a mouse | 23:32 |
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| cpg | hi, i installed the latest meego, however, the nvidia graphics card is not supported | 23:37 |
| smithna | as expected... | 23:37 |
| cpg | would like to get to command line, somehow, to add the repo from vljn | 23:37 |
| smithna | what's vjn? | 23:37 |
| cpg | http://wiki.meego.com/User:Vljn | 23:38 |
| cpg | basically, he compiles the x driver in the kickstart | 23:38 |
| cpg | when the machine comes up, i see it's working, but ssh is not enabled | 23:38 |
| cpg | i just need to somehow get into the machine | 23:38 |
| cpg | i am looking for a suggestion to get into the machine | 23:39 |
| cpg | so that i can install the drivers | 23:39 |
| cpg | lookin for advice | 23:39 |
| smithna | yum is installed by default (I believe) so just edit/add a repo to /etc/yum.repo.d/ | 23:39 |
| cpg | looking* | 23:39 |
| cpg | at the moment, i see the machine coming up (it requests dhcp) | 23:40 |
| cpg | but the screen is all blue and white | 23:40 |
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| smithna | http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/linux-tutorials-howtos-reference-material/19652-how-create-yum-repos-fc3.html | 23:40 |
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| smithna | to get to command line just do ctrl-alt-f1 | 23:41 |
| cpg | smithna: hmm. i tried that, but it did not work | 23:41 |
| smithna | that works with the IVI, haven't tried with others | 23:41 |
| cpg | i think the gfx is hosed by now | 23:42 |
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| cpg | maybe i can try change the image from outside | 23:42 |
| smithna | what drivers are you using now, to boot up? | 23:43 |
| cpg | whatever the default install uses | 23:44 |
| cpg | i just installed and ran once | 23:44 |
| smithna | I would ensure it's using the VESA driver | 23:44 |
| cpg | boots up ok otherwise | 23:44 |
| cpg | i will mount it from outside | 23:44 |
| cpg | is there a key to press to give the kernel boot options? | 23:45 |
| cpg | i rather work natively if i can | 23:45 |
| smithna | The boot loader is grub, which has some way to do that -- I just don't recall | 23:45 |
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| cpg | aha. i got into grub | 23:46 |
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| sofar | cpg: zypper install openssh-server | 23:48 |
| sofar | at boot, add '3' to the kernel command line | 23:48 |
| sofar | shift, tab should work | 23:49 |
| cpg | nice, sofar | 23:49 |
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| cpg | putting 3 does not seem to help. the grub image sits there ... and i see the system booting , seemingly, from the dhcp request and the hard drive light | 23:51 |
| cpg | getting close :) | 23:51 |
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| cpg | pressing the power button shuts it down cleanly, which is nice | 23:51 |
| sofar | the '3' tells it to boot to runlevel 3 | 23:51 |
| sofar | basically not starting X | 23:51 |
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| sofar | at that point you can login as root and muck about | 23:52 |
| cpg | great! worked by removing the vga=current! | 23:53 |
| cpg | thanks sofar, smithna ! | 23:53 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: using init 3 meego mostly works on non-SSSE3 computers | 23:53 |
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| sofar | well yeah, most of the optimizations are used in UX applications calculating floats for screen positions | 23:54 |
| CosmoHill | rpm works but yum and zypper doesn't >.< | 23:54 |
| sofar | what's the problem with zypper? | 23:54 |
| CosmoHill | both have "illegal instruction" error | 23:54 |
| sofar | oh | 23:54 |
| sofar | good, nothing that needs to be fixed then | 23:55 |
| CosmoHill | http://black-flag.co.uk/files/meego-on-p4.jpg | 23:55 |
| sofar | hehe | 23:56 |
| sofar | who's Mr. Norman? :) | 23:59 |
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