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| GAN900 | CosmoHill, not really, no. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| GAN900 | CosmoHill, depends on the company, of course, but it's pretty tame. | 00:00 |
| CosmoHill | thanks | 00:02 |
| CosmoHill | I'll tell my friend he's being prudish | 00:02 |
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| GAN900 | CosmoHill, but regional differences factor into that one fairly heavily. | 00:06 |
| GAN900 | Always remember: the US is a very large and varied place. | 00:06 |
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| odin_ | travelled much have you ? | 00:07 |
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| CosmoHill | I think you have states bigger than our country | 00:07 |
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| TSCHAKeee2 | CosmoHill: Texas is large enough that if you flipped it upside down...the tip would almost reach the middle part of Canada. | 00:13 |
| CosmoHill | as if it wasn't backwared enough as it is | 00:14 |
| lbt_away | probably the best think you could do to Texas... | 00:14 |
| * CosmoHill wonders who we've offended | 00:17 | |
| thiago_home | TSCHAKeee2: you mean flip it at the north border? | 00:17 |
| thiago_home | TSCHAKeee2: not flip it at the mid-section? | 00:17 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | yeah | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | not rotate then? | 00:17 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | just like folding it in | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 00:17 |
| CosmoHill | wow | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | it's huge | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | Texas is nuts yes... | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I was born there | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I don't admit that much | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I haven't lived there in over a decade | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | but I can tell you... | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | Texas has the highest concentration of women who are 10s in the world. | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | jeebus. | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | California is close second. | 00:18 |
| thiago_home | tens? | 00:18 |
| CosmoHill | hot? | 00:18 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | hot++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | 00:19 |
| * thiago_home read as "teens" but it doesn't make sense either | 00:19 | |
| TSCHAKeee2 | hotness scale from 1 to 10 | 00:19 |
| CosmoHill | my friend rated me 7.5 :( | 00:19 |
| * CosmoHill is a guy incase you're wondering | 00:20 | |
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| TSCHAKeee2 | oh no worries | 00:20 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I like guys too | 00:20 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | ;) | 00:20 |
| CosmoHill | ^.^ | 00:20 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | heheheh | 00:20 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | yes, I am bi.. in other words... I confuse the shit out of EVERYONE | 00:21 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | :P | 00:21 |
| CosmoHill | one day I'll talk on here without the logbots being in the back of my head | 00:21 |
| odin_ | and yourself I bet | 00:21 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | no, not really | 00:21 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I am quite secure with what i am. | 00:21 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | it just severely limits the dating scene a LOT | 00:21 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | you would think it would double things | 00:22 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | it doesn't. | 00:22 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | because you send out both sets of vibes | 00:22 |
| CosmoHill | "damn she's hot, her boyfriend ain't half bad either" | 00:22 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | most women think i'm gay | 00:22 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | most gay men think i'm not | 00:23 |
| CosmoHill | what time is it for you btw? | 00:23 |
| odin_ | bed I think... been a long day | 00:24 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | 17:24 EST | 00:24 |
| CosmoHill | hmm | 00:24 |
| CosmoHill | so it's not weird o'clock | 00:24 |
| CosmoHill | the time of day where you stop giving a shit about what you say and who;s listening | 00:25 |
| * CosmoHill goes back to writing up grub stuff quickly | 00:25 | |
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| CosmoHill | okay so I have a dual boot computer, windows and ubuntu | 00:42 |
| CosmoHill | windows partition is active so it can't boot ubuntu | 00:42 |
| CosmoHill | I can PXE boot Grub2 on that computer and it gives me the option of windows, ubuntu or memtest :) | 00:43 |
| CosmoHill | now I just need to figure out how to change which one is booted so it's headless | 00:43 |
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| CosmoHill | TSCHAKeee2: fancy a laugh | 00:49 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | always | 00:49 |
| CosmoHill | just noticed that my pencel has a name on it | 00:49 |
| CosmoHill | that name is "katie" | 00:49 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sofar | 00:50 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o sofar | 00:50 | |
| * CosmoHill hides | 00:50 | |
| * sofar giggles | 00:50 | |
| CosmoHill | test? | 00:50 |
| sofar | messing with you, sorry | 00:50 |
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| CosmoHill | I swear I have 3 different spellings of Ubuntu on this page | 00:59 |
| CosmoHill | it's two sentances >.< | 00:59 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: recently promoted? | 00:59 |
| sofar | yeah, after the incident this week | 00:59 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 01:00 |
| sofar | since I'm one of the few Intel devs always on, and have the irc op experience, I figured I'd volunteer | 01:00 |
| sofar | there was just someone spamming nonsense in french and linking to other irc servers | 01:00 |
| CosmoHill | ah | 01:00 |
| CosmoHill | I'll vollentee if you need more people | 01:01 |
| sofar | I'm already an op for #xfce and a few other channels, so no biggie | 01:01 |
| CosmoHill | i seem to slowly take over the places I go online :/ | 01:02 |
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| CosmoHill | I've had a busy night on the KPC forums, banned 3 people within about an hour | 01:02 |
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| Tuco_maria | Hey, is the telephone stack already implemented in meego for the n900? | 01:03 |
| CosmoHill | no | 01:03 |
| Tuco_maria | ok, maybe it will be until october | 01:04 |
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| CosmoHill | it's taken me an hour to get this far with grub | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | that's how focused I am | 01:08 |
| sofar | o_O | 01:08 |
| sofar | lol | 01:08 |
| sofar | grub | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | grub2 | 01:08 |
| sofar | setup (hd0,0) | 01:08 |
| sofar | oh grub2 | 01:08 |
| sofar | is fail ;) | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | sofar: I'm writing up what I've done | 01:08 |
| CosmoHill | I write down anything I do with my cluster | 01:09 |
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| CosmoHill | done :) | 01:13 |
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| CosmoHill | two pages on configuring grub.cfg for PXE | 01:14 |
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| CosmoHill | I've been told (indirectly) that I have until friday to move my desk | 01:29 |
| CosmoHill | where do I move my desk to? buggered if I know | 01:30 |
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| johnx | I've got a spot in the corner of my living room if you want | 01:32 |
| johnx | how big is the desk? | 01:32 |
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| CosmoHill | does it have room for 22 computers? | 01:33 |
| CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/desk2.jpg | 01:33 |
| gabrbedd | CosmoHill: sweet! | 01:34 |
| CosmoHill | ego++ | 01:35 |
| jacekowski | i barely manage 2 PCs + server | 01:35 |
| jacekowski | to keep everything synced | 01:35 |
| gabrbedd | Might have room in my house... but, um... it's a long commute. | 01:35 |
| CosmoHill | noticed the computers in the background? :) | 01:36 |
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| gabrbedd | Yeah, looks like a university lab. | 01:37 |
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| CosmoHill | correct | 01:37 |
| jacekowski | still, how people manage to work on more than 2 computers | 01:39 |
| jacekowski | i need everything in one place | 01:39 |
| CosmoHill | jacekowski: laptop is for personal stuff / interweb | 01:39 |
| gabrbedd | ssh rulez! | 01:39 |
| jacekowski | because copying stuff is just pita | 01:39 |
| CosmoHill | L2R: node, windows, linux | 01:39 |
| jacekowski | well, i do pretty much same stuff for fun and for work | 01:40 |
| jacekowski | so i've got same software on my work laptop and home laptop | 01:40 |
| jacekowski | + sometimes i do home stuff at work and work stuff at home | 01:40 |
| CosmoHill | I have a windows laptop for work and stuff | 01:41 |
| CosmoHill | mac for everything else | 01:41 |
| CosmoHill | + work | 01:41 |
| CosmoHill | and by work, i mean uni stuff | 01:41 |
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| johnx | CosmoHill, actually, I'll just clear out the living room. Bring your stuff and get setup :) | 01:42 |
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| johnx | you'll share though, right? :D | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | I had a desk in the back of my car today | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | and out the back too | 01:42 |
| CosmoHill | scratched my paint :( | 01:42 |
| johnx | ahaha...I'd be more worried about scratching my desk with my car than scratching my car with my desk :) | 01:43 |
| CosmoHill | next time I need to put a jumper under there | 01:43 |
| johnx | ah, and how to handle more than two computers at once? central file server + firefox sync + synergy | 01:43 |
| * johnx lives in a web browser and a terminal | 01:44 | |
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| CosmoHill | the computers are pretty blank | 01:44 |
| CosmoHill | I mean they have little personal files and stuff on there | 01:45 |
| CosmoHill | lots of configuration cluster stuff | 01:45 |
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| CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/computer-corner.jpg | 01:45 |
| CosmoHill | you can see the old cluster in the corner | 01:46 |
| ScottishDuck | white boxes | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | yes | 01:47 |
| ScottishDuck | that just screams "90s" | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | not the ones on the floor | 01:47 |
| ljp | looks like a computer graveyard | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | yes | 01:47 |
| * johnx looks a bit newer than the case I'm going to use for my next build ... | 01:47 | |
| CosmoHill | thanks to our awesome planning, the two people that turned up to the open day saw that | 01:47 |
| CosmoHill | that cluster is P4 1.4Ghz, 512MB and that monitor is damn heavy | 01:48 |
| CosmoHill | brought the monitor over to the cluster and thought "gosh you're taller than you look" | 01:49 |
| * johnx used to have an 21" HP UNIX workstation monitor from '89 | 01:50 | |
| * johnx doesn't miss CRTs even a little bit | 01:50 | |
| CosmoHill | I'm 21 from 1989 | 01:50 |
| CosmoHill | does that count? | 01:50 |
| johnx | I bet you weigh more than the monitor did, but probably only by a little | 01:50 |
| CosmoHill | probably | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | how much? | 01:51 |
| johnx | somewhere between 100 and 120lbs | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | eep | 01:51 |
| ScottishDuck | That cluster probably only has a fraction of the power of my current pc :/ | 01:51 |
| ScottishDuck | It's easy to forget moores law is still in effect | 01:51 |
| CosmoHill | jonnx I'm 132 lbs | 01:51 |
| ScottishDuck | 120lbs monitor | 01:52 |
| ScottishDuck | wat | 01:52 |
| CosmoHill | ScottishDuck: hold on, I have the power of that cluster written down | 01:52 |
| possomfat | anyone, trying to run test QT app on n900 device, cant figure out what hostname is for device? Does anyone know how to figure this out? | 01:52 |
| johnx | possomfat, run 'hostname' on the device? | 01:53 |
| possomfat | k | 01:53 |
| possomfat | how, can't get a terminal, no prompt when i go into xterm on the device? | 01:54 |
| CosmoHill | my cluster will be an estimated 1.5Kw | 01:54 |
| johnx | ScottishDuck, let me look up the specs on the monitor. I'm pretty sure it was above 100lbs, but 120lbs would be the high end of that scale | 01:55 |
| possomfat | how do i ssh into it? I'm new to this:) what is the IP of the device connected to the USB? | 01:56 |
| ScottishDuck | If you folks are ~130lbs weight you must be pretty short :/ | 01:57 |
| possomfat | I'm 240lbs and need help:) Maybe this will get me some luv :) | 01:59 |
| ScottishDuck | I'm 200lbs but average weight | 01:59 |
| * CosmoHill is about 6ft | 01:59 | |
| ScottishDuck | (6' 4") | 01:59 |
| johnx | possomfat, what is the IP of the computer's usb interface right now (ifconfig or ipconfig on windows) | 01:59 |
| ScottishDuck | CosmoHill: that would make you underweight :/ | 02:00 |
| johnx | CosmoHill, you're 6" and 132 *lbs* O_o; | 02:00 |
| possomfat | [mark@dell-e1505 my-N900-Image]$ ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:15:C5:C9:CF:51 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) Interrupt:17 lo Link encap:Local Loopback | 02:00 |
| johnx | possomfat, errr, I don't think the usb iface is called eth0 | 02:01 |
| johnx | I think it's like usb0 or somethijg | 02:01 |
| possomfat | usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 0E:7B:3F:52:20:B0 inet6 addr: fe80::c7b:3fff:fe52:20b0/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1494 Metric:1 RX packets:24 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:10 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:3344 (3.2 KiB) TX bytes:1896 (1.8 KiB) | 02:01 |
| possomfat | sorry I don't see the IP address for the usb device | 02:02 |
| Tuco_maria | nonsense! | 02:02 |
| possomfat | what am i missing? | 02:02 |
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| possomfat | johnx, is there someother device mounted on top of the usb device or something? | 02:04 |
| johnx | uhm, what HOWTO are you following? | 02:05 |
| johnx | pretty much if the N900 is connected in mass storage mode, it can't do networking | 02:05 |
| johnx | can't do USB networking that is | 02:05 |
| possomfat | was trying this one- http://wiki.meego.com/Hello_World_-_MeeGo_x86_development_on_Linux | 02:06 |
| possomfat | I've built a meego image and put in on the N900, it is running. Now I'm just trying to put a test QT app on the device? | 02:07 |
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| possomfat | johnx, any advice | 02:08 |
| johnx | ah, right, but what guide did you follow to connect to your N900 over usb? | 02:08 |
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| possomfat | johnx, this one - http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC | 02:09 |
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| possomfat | The rootfs piece loads to the device via usb | 02:10 |
| johnx | yes...but *after* that, once you're booted into meego, you need to setup usb networking | 02:11 |
| possomfat | johnx, do you know if the wifi works on the cuurent build? maybe i could try that? thoughts? | 02:11 |
| * CosmoHill bans 4th person today | 02:12 | |
| johnx | dunno much about meego on the N900, I'm running maemo on the N900 and getting meego onto something else | 02:12 |
| possomfat | I didn't start usb networking, is their a howto on that? | 02:12 |
| johnx | well, I don't know of one. I thought you must have followed one ... | 02:13 |
| ljp | it should automatically start up usbnetworking. but http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5031 | 02:13 |
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| possomfat | any ideas on the wifi method, how can i tell what ip address was assigned to the meego-n900 without xterm or much else working? | 02:18 |
| possomfat | It does say that i'm connected to my wifi network on the n900 | 02:19 |
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| possomfat | plz don't make me sniff my wifi network, this cant be that hard:) | 02:21 |
| CosmoHill | if it smells like burnt plastic, you need a new router | 02:21 |
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| possomfat | :)) | 02:22 |
| ScottishDuck | You never forget the unmistakable smell of burning slilicon | 02:23 |
| ScottishDuck | it strikes fear into the heart of all tech enthusiasts | 02:23 |
| * gabrbedd remembers the smell of his speak-n-spell... | 02:24 | |
| possomfat | my god, i just looked and under the connectivity->wifi-> there is a magicall advanced button that actually has network details! who would have guessed:0 | 02:25 |
| ScottishDuck | meego is leading the curve | 02:26 |
| possomfat | hehe | 02:26 |
| CosmoHill | now they're talking about physics in #lfs-support >.< | 02:28 |
| gabrbedd | What is the average air speed velocity of an unladen N900? | 02:33 |
| sofar | jailbroken or not? | 02:33 |
| johnx | gabrbedd, there's an app for that :D | 02:33 |
| asj | gabrbedd: I don't know, but n900fly can tell you ;) | 02:33 |
| gabrbedd | I... I don't know... AAaaaaaaaa.... | 02:33 |
| CosmoHill | gabrbedd: african or eurpean? | 02:37 |
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| haoxu | Hi there, could anyone tell me how do i run my own app inside QEMU? | 06:11 |
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| tripzero | what version of git comes with meego? | 08:16 |
| tripzero | seems old... | 08:16 |
| tripzero | hmm... 1.6.1 | 08:16 |
| tripzero | my ubuntu box has 1.7.1 | 08:16 |
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| Khertan_Home | Morning all | 09:26 |
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| amjad | morning | 09:29 |
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| RaymondL | Hi One quick question for MTF TapAndHold gesture | 09:36 |
| RaymondL | Is that changed during the recent days? I mean, before , it need 500ms or so to triger a tap and hold gesture. now, just a click will lead to it | 09:37 |
| thiago_home | if just a click leads to tap-and-hold, it must be a bug | 09:38 |
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| RaymondL | hmm, will take a look on the diff.... | 09:40 |
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| RaymondL | or the usage model have been changed? it seems to me it remove the default timeout value (which is 500) need user to set it when using it? | 09:44 |
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| thiago_home | I don't think that makes sense | 09:45 |
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| RaymondL | OK, I found the reason. it move the default timeout value into the style file. the value need to be defined in the style css file. or it will be 0. And I havn't update the latest theme package. But It really should have a reasonable default value been set | 09:54 |
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| thiago_home | submit a patch | 09:57 |
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| lbt2 | X-Fade: ping... | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | lbt2: he's in a conversation, should i pass something on? | 10:01 |
| lbt2 | I'm just after the meeting room for later | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | E227 | 10:01 |
| lbt2 | cheers ... | 10:02 |
| lbt2 | Eric... are you around ? | 10:02 |
| Stskeeps | lbt2: or C325.. if you have a nokian around, check the reservation | 10:02 |
| lbt2 | I shall ask my pet nokian... | 10:03 |
| djszapi | thiago_home: I always forget which linux distribution you use, I am sorry for my memory. | 10:03 |
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| thiago_home | djszapi: probably because I don't tell people | 10:04 |
| thiago_home | why do you want to know? | 10:04 |
| djszapi | I am just interested in that. | 10:04 |
| thiago_home | Mandriva | 10:04 |
| djszapi | what a real Qt hacker uses. | 10:04 |
| thiago_home | a real Qt hacker uses anything | 10:05 |
| lbt2 | so why ask thiago_home? | 10:05 |
| thiago_home | most used is OpenSUSE (standardised in the Brisbane office) | 10:05 |
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| thiago_home | the Oslo office seems to prefer Kubuntu | 10:05 |
| djszapi | k | 10:05 |
| thiago_home | other distros in-use are Fedora, ArchLinux | 10:06 |
| w00t_ | any ubuntu without a K? :-) | 10:06 |
| thiago_home | yes | 10:06 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 10:06 |
| thiago_home | one in Oslo that I can think of | 10:06 |
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| chriadam | plus for Maemo5 scratchbox development, vanilla Ubuntu makes it painless :-) | 10:07 |
| thiago_home | everyone dislikes scratchbox and avoids it as much as possible | 10:07 |
| w00t_ | ^ | 10:08 |
| chriadam | perhaps I should have said "less painful" | 10:08 |
| djszapi | thiago_home: can I ask why ? | 10:08 |
| thiago_home | not to me | 10:08 |
| w00t_ | because it is a pain in the ass | 10:08 |
| thiago_home | I don't use scratchbox | 10:08 |
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| thiago_home | I deployed my own toolchain. That was easier. | 10:08 |
| djszapi | w00t_: works like a charm | 10:08 |
| w00t_ | I'm glad you enjoy it | 10:09 |
| djszapi | ty | 10:09 |
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| * thiago_home is the author of the internal QtWithoutScratchbox wiki page | 10:10 | |
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| w00t_ | thiago_home: any chance it could be made external? I'd like to try give that a shot sometime :) | 10:10 |
| thiago_home | no use | 10:11 |
| thiago_home | it's about Harmattan development | 10:11 |
| thiago_home | you need the harmattan sysroots | 10:11 |
| rohanpm | we had a guy who was given a Kubuntu box on his first day, switched it back to Gnome, and quit after a couple of months | 10:11 |
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| thiago_home | w00t_: it might work for Fremantle development though... | 10:12 |
| thiago_home | w00t_: it's a bunch of instructions to download from CodeSourcery, unpack the sysroot and fix it up so it can be used outside a chroot | 10:12 |
| thiago_home | plus missing packages | 10:12 |
| * w00t_ nods | 10:12 | |
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| thiago_home | there's also no reason why it wouldn't work for MeeGo development either... | 10:14 |
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| w00t_ | OBS would be a better candidate there though, really, wouldn't it? | 10:15 |
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| thiago_home | I have no clue how OBS works | 10:17 |
| Bostik | thiago_home: just so you know, I'm trying to get an OBS builder for maemoX target and Qt is one hard nut to crack | 10:17 |
| thiago_home | I want an environment where I run a native cross-compiler | 10:18 |
| thiago_home | no emulation, no chroot | 10:18 |
| thiago_home | that way, I can use the compile farm | 10:18 |
| Bostik | my idea of a compile farm would be a stack of MX-51 boards or something similar | 10:19 |
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| rohanpm | Bostik: what's the problem with Qt ? | 10:20 |
| Bostik | rohanpm: OBS runs arm builds inside a qemu-arm system emulation; to build any Qt software one needs naturally qmake, moc and friends; the binaries in maemoX -dev package are for i386, as the package is solely designed for scratchbox (or MADDE?) and those commands are executed on the host directly | 10:21 |
| Bostik | so one can't build a maemo OBS builder from maemo repository packages | 10:21 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: I don't have a lot of experience, but my understanding is that it effectively _is_ the build farm, you give it a source package, it gives you a binary package | 10:22 |
| Bostik | oh well | 10:22 |
| rohanpm | Bostik: so, as opposed to scratchbox which uses a per-process transparent qemu thing, here the entire build process takes place in an ARM system? | 10:22 |
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| Bostik | rohanpm: effectively yes; the build process could be executed on qemu, or it could be offloaded to native hardware | 10:23 |
| thiago_home | w00t_: I don't have a source package | 10:23 |
| thiago_home | w00t_: I have source code in Git, which I recompile often | 10:23 |
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| thiago_home | I don't need a full package. I just need to rebuild one library or two. | 10:23 |
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| frals | anyone else have this nice feature when running meego-sdk in xephyr (and ubuntu) that every x minute the whole system goes to suspend mode? :P | 10:48 |
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| dcthang | frals: no, which os u are using? | 10:52 |
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| frals | ubuntu 10.04 | 10:53 |
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| RaymondL | Hi , one quick question on MSceneWindow or MOverlay. Two weeks ago, if I don't set the focus policy, it won't get focus by click. while it seems now it will. How can I disable this behavior? setFocusPolicy(Qt::NoFocus) seems does not help | 10:54 |
| dcthang | it's fun. I'm using ubuntu 9.04 and does not have that kind of fun | 10:54 |
| dcthang | i do not know which command you run Xephyr? | 10:54 |
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| Ravey | hi guys, im trying to use gstreamer with qtcreator, if i include the headers the compile compains (id returned exit status 1) i have added -L/usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 -gstreamer into the makefile...any ideas, very new to all this so im a little lost as to the problem | 12:51 |
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| thiago | ld, not id | 12:52 |
| thiago | that error also means "there was another error" | 12:52 |
| thiago | please look further app and find the *first* error | 12:52 |
| thiago | note the key words: first, error | 12:52 |
| Ravey | thiago: is your feedback for me? | 12:54 |
| thiago | yes | 12:54 |
| Ravey | excellent thank you | 12:54 |
| Ravey | if i comment out the includes for gstreamer and glib its fine | 12:54 |
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| Ravey | thiago: if i take out the linker settings i put in, i then get "undefined reference to `gst_init'" | 12:57 |
| Ravey | so im guessing i am doing something incorrect with the linking | 12:58 |
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| thiago | you're not linking to the library that provides gst_init | 12:58 |
| Ravey | which would be: L/usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 -gstreamer ? | 12:59 |
| Ravey | -lgstreamer rather | 12:59 |
| thiago | probably not | 13:00 |
| thiago | -lgstreamer-0.10 | 13:00 |
| Ravey | ahh right | 13:00 |
| Ravey | thank you i will try that | 13:00 |
| Ravey | same result as originally, the ld returned exist status message | 13:01 |
| thiago | what's the first error message? | 13:03 |
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| Ravey | there is only 1 error message | 13:04 |
| thiago | I'm pretty sure there are more | 13:04 |
| thiago | look at the compilation output | 13:04 |
| Ravey | :: error: collect2: ld returned 1 exit status | 13:04 |
| Ravey | no just the one | 13:04 |
| thiago | there have to be more | 13:04 |
| Ravey | no just one, lots of warnings, which ive filtered off, leaving 1 error | 13:05 |
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| thiago | can you pastebin the output, please? | 13:06 |
| Ravey | excuse my ignorance - pastebin? | 13:07 |
| johnx | ~pastebin | 13:07 |
| infobot | [~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://bin.cakephp.org/ , http://asterisk.pastey.net/ , or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude. | 13:07 |
| Ravey | oh right | 13:07 |
| Ravey | its only 3 lines anyway | 13:08 |
| thiago | you said there were lots of warnings | 13:10 |
| thiago | if that's 3 lines, and one of them is an error, that leaves 2 warnings only | 13:10 |
| thiago | is that lots of warnings? | 13:10 |
| Ravey | is to me :) | 13:10 |
| Ravey | http://pastebin.com/Ha6SgJvr | 13:10 |
| CosmoHill | johnx: ooo | 13:11 |
| CosmoHill | I didn't know info bot could do those things | 13:11 |
| thiago | is that the Compile output window? | 13:11 |
| thiago | number 4? | 13:11 |
| Ravey | build issues that is | 13:11 |
| thiago | no | 13:12 |
| Ravey | ill do the compile output one, one sec | 13:12 |
| thiago | I meant the Compile output one... | 13:12 |
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| Ravey | thiago: http://pastebin.com/fDgfFXJ0 | 13:13 |
| thiago | ah, there we go: | 13:13 |
| thiago | /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lglib | 13:13 |
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| thiago | you wrote -lglib in your LIBS, but that library doesn't exit | 13:14 |
| Ravey | right got you | 13:14 |
| thiago | either you didn't write it properly, or you forgot to install something | 13:14 |
| Ravey | i think it is possibly glib2.0 | 13:14 |
| Ravey | i have plenty to go on now tho - thank you very much for your time and help | 13:15 |
| ColKilkenny | might be glib-2.0 | 13:15 |
| Ravey | ColKilkenny: it is, thank you :D | 13:15 |
| Ravey | chaps - all seems well now, thank you very much | 13:16 |
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| afief | Meego doesn't seem to have grub, how can I specify which kernel image to boot? | 13:53 |
| CosmoHill | it uses...damn what was it | 13:54 |
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| CosmoHill | syslinux | 13:54 |
| CosmoHill | afief: http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/SYSLINUX << this might help | 13:55 |
| afief | CosmoHill, Thanks :) | 13:55 |
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| vilvo | about to start weekly meego-qa-tools meeting in 4mins at #meego-meeting | 14:56 |
| CosmoHill | what's it about? | 15:01 |
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| Myrtti | meep | 15:05 |
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| Ravey | does anyone have any code exampes for sound playback in meego. im desperately trying to get sound in my game without any luck at all | 15:20 |
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| Ravey | does anyone have any code exampes for sound playback in meego. ive converted my game code, graphics, ai, input etc all working, had no luck with sound though at all thus far. Any examples / assistance would be very much appreciated | 15:49 |
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| schoenemann | Hi, I've installed MeeGo on a N900 and want to test my own application on it | 16:42 |
| jacekowski | then copy it to phone | 16:42 |
| jacekowski | and test it | 16:43 |
| schoenemann | how can I compile my app for ARM? | 16:43 |
| jacekowski | with a compiler | 16:43 |
| schoenemann | jacekowski: I know that I need a compiler | 16:43 |
| schoenemann | jacekowski: but is there a toolchain for MeeGo anywhere? | 16:43 |
| jacekowski | yes there is | 16:44 |
| schoenemann | jacekowski: do you have a link where to find it? | 16:44 |
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| jacekowski | google.com | 16:46 |
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| schoenemann | I also read about the usage of OBS (https://build.meego.com/) but how do I register for this service? | 16:51 |
| Myrtti | "Love is in the air..." ♬♪ | 16:51 |
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| sivang | Myrtti: that was long ago | 16:56 |
| * sivang is reminded with childhood memories | 16:56 | |
| amjad | bugs are in the air too :) | 16:56 |
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| sivang | amjad: especially in the hot and humid summer | 17:11 |
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| lcuk | RT: @PeterMeeGo Got an #N900? Let me know how you use multitasking. Do you keep the dashboard clean or messy? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=61869 - https://twitter.com/PeterMeeGo/status/23243718531 | 18:37 |
| * lcuk thinks the feedback will be important for meego too | 18:37 | |
| * leinir agrees, and this is why texrat and he hope to do a bof on the topic at the conference :) | 18:38 | |
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| CosmoHill | hey | 19:09 |
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| Stskeeps | evening quim | 19:11 |
| qgil | Hi! Instant survey: | 19:12 |
| qgil | Who is interested creating a Local MeeGo Network? http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks | 19:12 |
| qgil | Just say whare are you based | 19:12 |
| qgil | I also welcome feedback on how to make this more useful / appealing | 19:13 |
| Stskeeps | maybe link it with the l10n efforts? | 19:13 |
| Stskeeps | looks good to me though | 19:15 |
| Stskeeps | though wondering where the helsinki one is ;) | 19:15 |
| Robot101 | qgil: looks like we could do something in Cambridge :D | 19:16 |
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| qgil | Link with l10n makes total sense, good point | 19:17 |
| qgil | Robot101: great news :9 What about adding Cambridge as (CANDIDATE) at http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Networks_in_the_World ? | 19:18 |
| qgil | We need to break the ice | 19:18 |
| CosmoHill | chelmsford would be a short bike ride for me | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | cambridge has a lot of ARM activities too don't they? | 19:18 |
| CosmoHill | and I could always ask about getting a room at uni | 19:19 |
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| qgil | Aren't some Collabora guys based there? | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | well, that too | 19:19 |
| Robot101 | yes, ARM and Linaro are in Cambridge | 19:19 |
| Robot101 | actually Linaro are getting an office like next door to Collabora's new office | 19:20 |
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| qgil | Robot101 CosmoHill it would be great if you could add Cambridge to that list, even if as CANDIDATE - others (like me) can help advertizing | 19:20 |
| Robot101 | maybe they'll have the internet... it doesn't look like we will... can put a cat5 cable through their window | 19:20 |
| qgil | oh, and there is the Nokia Research Center at Cambridge too | 19:21 |
| Myrtti | if you're having a meetup, I'll be there | 19:21 |
| Myrtti | I even happen to be in the area atm | 19:21 |
| CosmoHill | "is that the new N9" *hides phone* No, what are you talking about? | 19:22 |
| qgil | where else? any other tips to break the ice? | 19:23 |
| Myrtti | talking of Cambridgeshire, it's pissing down here | 19:23 |
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| CosmoHill | I got damp on my way home and I'm 50 miles away | 19:23 |
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| MostafaDaneshvar | qgil, I can do something in Iran for MeeGo | 19:23 |
| * MostafaDaneshvar hopefully \ | 19:24 | |
| Robot101 | qgil: do they do any MeeGo stuff? you should introduce us so we can go and teach them :D | 19:24 |
| Myrtti | qgil perhaps it could be used to breathe some life to CLUG. It's woefully DEAD. | 19:24 |
| qgil | MostafaDaneshvar: sure (did I answer to you already? someone asked about Iran via email) | 19:24 |
| Robot101 | do they have Juhla Mokka there? it could be a home away from home | 19:24 |
| Myrtti | (oh crikey, I don't know how to use IRC anymore) | 19:24 |
| Robot101 | Myrtti: debian-uk's Cambridge cabal has always totally eclipsed CLUG | 19:24 |
| MostafaDaneshvar | qgil, that was me :) | 19:24 |
| Myrtti | Robot101: that swill is the most horr... oh, nevermind, there actually is worse Finnish coffee roasts, like Saludo. | 19:24 |
| Myrtti | Saludo is the eternal revenge of the HR and assistants at the office. | 19:25 |
| Myrtti | "I have a grudge against you, so I bought nothing but Saludo" | 19:25 |
| CosmoHill | "install party?" | 19:25 |
| qgil | MostafaDaneshvar: please follow the simple steps to create a Local MeeGo Network in.. Tehran? http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Networks_in_the_World | 19:25 |
| CosmoHill | why can I think of women, wine and netbooks | 19:25 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: it's called a brain | 19:26 |
| Myrtti | Robot101: it's a bit sad really, I love Steve and all, but would be nice to have meetings more often than once a year at his backgarden | 19:26 |
| Myrtti | (and with no fear of being stoned to death as an Ubuntu user) | 19:27 |
| CosmoHill | qgil: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Networks_in_the_World | 19:27 |
| CosmoHill | how's this | 19:28 |
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| qgil | CosmoHill: "If you are in the process of creating a new network, create a new thread at the Community Matters forum and list it here following this example: " :) | 19:29 |
| qgil | but a first step is a first step :) | 19:29 |
| CosmoHill | I like to do things backwards | 19:29 |
| qgil | self-reverse engineering CosmoHill | 19:29 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: localization sprints added to http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Other_activities | 19:30 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: I guess I need to contact the L10n team - now how to do this without having to subscribe to a new mailing list ;) | 19:31 |
| CosmoHill | hmm, 45 miles away | 19:31 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: start with margie, i guess :) | 19:31 |
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| qgil | Where else? I would expect at least 3 cities in Finland, Berlin, Oslo, London... | 19:33 |
| qgil | and what about the USA? Portland, San Diego, even Boston... NYC got close http://twitter.com/gwapz/status/22848713693 | 19:33 |
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| CosmoHill | I have no idea what to say on the forums. | 19:34 |
| qgil | you can also help by saying why a Local MeeGo Network doesn't sound appealing to you, or not enough to break the ice in your city | 19:34 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: I'll write a template right now :) | 19:34 |
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| CosmoHill | "Hello everyone. | 19:35 |
| CosmoHill | Cambridge, England is a proposed city for local MeeGo meetings. | 19:35 |
| CosmoHill | Any thoughts or comments on this location for meetings?" | 19:35 |
| CosmoHill | PS woot first post! | 19:35 |
| frals | i wonder if one could be started in HEL... ;o | 19:36 |
| CosmoHill | ideally I'd like someone else to start the cambridge forum post | 19:36 |
| CosmoHill | since I've been there only once, which is more times than I've been to the forums | 19:36 |
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| CosmoHill | frals: you could share with Apple if you'd like | 19:37 |
| CosmoHill | that as close as you can get | 19:37 |
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| MaikelZ | hello | 19:38 |
| CosmoHill | hi | 19:38 |
| Myrtti | woot I can haz forumz | 19:39 |
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| MaikelZ | i have a question, i would like to make i own programs in c++ for meego and other plarforms | 19:40 |
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| MaikelZ | so where do i start, what do i need? | 19:41 |
| CosmoHill | have you programmed in c++ before? | 19:42 |
| MaikelZ | never, only in php | 19:43 |
| CosmoHill | you're rendered my following question moot | 19:43 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Listing_new_candidate_networks | 19:43 |
| slaine | qgil: when's the next communit meeting ? | 19:43 |
| CosmoHill | qgil: what happened to cambridge? | 19:44 |
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| qgil | slaine: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Meetings#Next_CO_meeting | 19:44 |
| RST38h | moo, myrtti, qgil, all. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | moo RST38h | 19:44 |
| CosmoHill | woof | 19:44 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: is in the list | 19:44 |
| RST38h | hey stskeeps | 19:44 |
| slaine | qgil: thanks, was looking for it | 19:44 |
| qgil | Let's start with a single list without country divisions? | 19:44 |
| CosmoHill | ah I see | 19:44 |
| qgil | or what do you think | 19:45 |
| CosmoHill | I think I was getting ahead of myself | 19:45 |
| CosmoHill | if there's more than 5 or # in one country that should have it's own header | 19:45 |
| qgil | MostafaDaneshvar: please create a candidate for... Tehran? | 19:45 |
| VDVsx | qgil, we need also one here in HEL ;) | 19:45 |
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| qgil | VDVsx: indeed, I hope I don't have to chase people for that one | 19:46 |
| VDVsx | ehhe | 19:46 |
| qgil | Dublin would be another logical location | 19:46 |
| frals | VDVsx: get started organizing! ;) | 19:47 |
| RST38h | What kind of meetups are you all talking about? (sorry) | 19:47 |
| CosmoHill | aMeeGos? -.- | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks | 19:47 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: it's the template, do what you want with it :) | 19:47 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Ah, too early for that yet, I guess :) | 19:48 |
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| VDVsx | frals, one per month shouldn't be too much work :D | 19:49 |
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| frals | VDVsx: plan it for whenever im not in stockholm! | 19:49 |
| qgil | RST38h: where are you? It's not too early to list a candidate place | 19:50 |
| qgil | frals: Stockholm is a good place for a LMN :) | 19:50 |
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| Myrtti | so where's the forum post about Cambs Meegoes? ;-) | 19:51 |
| frals | qgil: yeah, but I'm there ~2 weekends a month so I think there are better people to do it ;) | 19:51 |
| qgil | maybe it should be lcearer that starting is easy in many locations: find 4 MeeGo peers and have a dinner or some drinks once a month. That's it. | 19:51 |
| * Myrtti presses F5 again | 19:51 | |
| qgil | if things deserve to grow they will grow | 19:51 |
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| RST38h | qgil: Moscow | 19:52 |
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| RST38h | qgil: But I doubt there will be enough people interested at the moment | 19:52 |
| VDVsx | qgil, here in HEL, we already have these free Thursdays that is almost only "mobile people", perhaps some merger can work :) | 19:53 |
| frals | VDVsx: free thursdays, the what? | 19:53 |
| VDVsx | frals, http://free-thursday.pieni.net/ | 19:53 |
| dcthang | oh my, very nice | 19:54 |
| frals | heh, did not know about that one :p | 19:54 |
| * Myrtti considers Tampere | 19:54 | |
| VDVsx | frals, you should go, lots of familiar faces there :D | 19:55 |
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| frals | VDVsx: alright, will have to go then i guess :p | 19:56 |
| VDVsx | Stskeeps, same for you, since you're around this time :D | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | VDVsx: we'll see how my plans look like :P | 19:57 |
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| qgil | "Unersponsive script" in browser, sorry I missed the last lines | 19:59 |
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| qgil | RST38h: Forum Nokia and http://www.fruct.org/ have organized Maemo related sessions in Moscow and there are those Maemo Russian forums with apparently good activity | 20:01 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: too late for irc stats? | 20:07 |
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| DawnFoster | stskeeps: definitely not too late - as usual, I'm running a bit behind in finishing them :) | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | excellent, will just quickly do them | 20:09 |
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| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: thanks! | 20:12 |
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| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.aug.html for #meego.. | 20:14 |
| qgil | hi DawnFoster you were wondering about a Portland MeeGo Network... | 20:15 |
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| DawnFoster | qgil: I thought I'd see if someone else wanted to start one | 20:16 |
| theplic | start wut? | 20:16 |
| DawnFoster | qgil: if not, I'll probably start one after the 1.1 releases go out | 20:16 |
| DawnFoster | and after the conference | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.dev.aug.html for #meego-dev.. #meego-arm coming up | 20:17 |
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| Stskeeps | http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/data/irssistats.arm.aug.html | 20:19 |
| csdb | Stskeeps: are those hours UTC ? | 20:20 |
| DawnFoster | Stskeeps: great, thanks | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | csdb: denmark time | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | it's obvious to see when people start lunch on the arm one | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:21 |
| qgil | theplic: start a Local MeeGo Network in your area http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks | 20:21 |
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| theplic | yay delhi! | 20:21 |
| theplic | which is in india :/ | 20:21 |
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| qgil | theplic: There shouldn't be difficult to find 5 MeeGo peers in Delhi or Bangalore (at least) :) | 20:23 |
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| theplic | bangalore is too far away to organize a social meetup once a month :D | 20:23 |
| theplic | but yea ill try. though how is an entirely another question | 20:23 |
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| CosmoHill | hey DawnFoster | 20:26 |
| DawnFoster | hey CosmoHill | 20:26 |
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| CosmoHill | just wondering, how many people in here type "forums.meego" instead of "forum.meego"? | 20:28 |
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| qgil | theplic: you can start adding Delhi as a candidate location http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks#Listing_new_candidate_networks | 20:32 |
| qgil | theplic: it is easier to help locations once we know that there is someone interested in the area | 20:32 |
| theplic | ok thanks. ill do that | 20:32 |
| qgil | theplic: great! | 20:33 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: I will help promoting the Cambridge candidate as soon as you create the forum, so people can leave their feedback there | 20:34 |
| theplic | i also have a question. i just recently installed meego bual booted with windows 7. it was all fine till i started windows 7 from the boot menu. it kinda over-ride the boot partition and now i dont get the menu. | 20:35 |
| CosmoHill | damn you remembered | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder if handset users are more 'service pack' hungering than what's traditional from PCs. i mean, windows xp had almost 1-2 years between service packs. ubuntu is also 6 months release schedule, so's meego... and with handsets, people are hungering for new features after what, 3 months? | 20:35 |
| CosmoHill | is there an introduction area on the forum? | 20:35 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: "introduction area"? | 20:36 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: 1. XP has got hotfixes | 20:36 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: 2. In comparison with Maemo5, XP is pretty much bug free | 20:36 |
| ShadowJK | and people don't expect XP to do anything except run software | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: yes, hotfixes are bugfixes | 20:37 |
| RST38h | (as scary as it sounds) | 20:37 |
| CosmoHill | qgil: top of this: http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/ | 20:37 |
| CosmoHill | *2nd from top | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: those exist outside release schedules in meego as well for instance | 20:37 |
| ShadowJK | Like, people ask me what software to use for burning CDs and I suggest they use XP, and they just stare at me | 20:37 |
| CosmoHill | basically a section of the forum specifically to go "hello" | 20:37 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: well, there is http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3 | 20:37 |
| ShadowJK | they don't have the expectation that the OS does anything at all | 20:37 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Well, there are no meego handsets that I can try, so this argument is meaningless wrt meego | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | my point being.. | 20:38 |
| Stskeeps | meego 1.1 for N900, and what then? bugfixes? | 20:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:38 |
| qgil | CosmoHill: but that new thread about Cambridge is supposed to go to under the Community Matters forum http://forum.meego.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5 | 20:38 |
| CosmoHill | http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3&page=5 | 20:38 |
| CosmoHill | done | 20:38 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Ubuntu-like process would be fine with me | 20:38 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: An official repository with regular bugfixes to packages, on package by package basis | 20:38 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: which is major release and then only fixes? | 20:38 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Actually, Ubuntu has regular releases | 20:39 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: Two times a year or so | 20:39 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, every 6 months | 20:39 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: But as long as the actual BUGS are being fixed promptly, I would (personally) be fine | 20:39 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: You have probably noticed that the main meat of the maemo5 problem is that Nokia does not even fix the bugs | 20:40 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: Sometimes going as far as classifying them as feature requests :) | 20:40 |
| frals | RST38h: s/fix/release in a package/ | 20:40 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: still, this requires the OS to be fairly feature completel | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | -l | 20:41 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Right | 20:41 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: But Maemo5 is more or less feature complete and I expect no less from Meego | 20:41 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: After all it is done by the same people with the same roadmap | 20:41 |
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| CosmoHill | qgil: typing it now, seem to be having some login issues | 20:42 |
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| ShadowJK | I think distros like ubuntu and fedora liberally update packages outside their 6 - 12 month major release cycle as long as the newer packages don't bump dependencies too much.. or even backport from new versions and do it outside the 6-12 month cycle.. | 20:42 |
| CosmoHill | http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=8784#post8784 | 20:42 |
| RST38h | yep | 20:42 |
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| RST38h | Basically, unlike Symbian, you do not need to stick with the same old fashioned SSU model | 20:43 |
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| RST38h | Any package that does has small number of dependencies, does not require certification, and can be easily tested, should go into a repo right away | 20:43 |
| CosmoHill | all done | 20:44 |
| ShadowJK | There's that argument of Q&A to not break stuff after each package upgrade.. but that seems to just leave you with more things perpetually broken :-) | 20:44 |
| CosmoHill | some how I managed to get the same word at the start of each line | 20:44 |
| RST38h | And in Linux that is MOST packages :) | 20:44 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: I do not see Nokia Q&A stand by this argument of theirs | 20:44 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: (See PR1.2). Which probably means that the argument is fake. | 20:45 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: In any case, if you break something, you can fix it quickly by uploading a different package. If you break something in the SSU, you users will have to suffer for another 6 months | 20:45 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Inventing all the wonderful ways they would use to torture you if they ever got hands on you :) | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: ack | 20:46 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | what i'm hoping at least with meego, is to get enough of a system that WE can extend and make better... It is maddening with Maemo5 that basically the one application we can extend, is Modest. | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee2: and rss reader, but we're drifting | 20:46 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | can't submit bug fixes to the dialer | 20:46 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee2, hmm? | 20:46 |
| lcuk | and all the hildon stuff | 20:46 |
| lcuk | and the kernel changed many times to great effect | 20:46 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | closed the calendar and task app? REALLY? | 20:46 |
| RST38h | TSCHAK: You can extend way more than modest in maemo5 | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | my point is that the current attitudes of handset updates is higher than what is on desktop pcs | 20:47 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | yes | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | not to discuss how maemo handles it. | 20:47 |
| RST38h | TSCHAK: mesaging, look and feel, audio/video codecs, input methods - all these are extendable | 20:47 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | because we have a lot of spoiled brats that have migrated from the cell phone world | 20:47 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: And my point is that it is only because way more things are either broken or in flux in these mobie platforms | 20:47 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | RST38h: agreed, but try to fix stuff that ppl complain about in the "phone" :P | 20:47 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Desktop is much better understood by now, both by the users and developers | 20:48 |
| ShadowJK | Stskeeps, I'm not convinced :P When installing newest fedora I pretty much expect several updates a week for the next month or two, then it tapers off to a trickle until Fedora $myinstalledversion+2 is released, when updates stop | 20:48 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | oh well, at least if you know gconf keys, you can hijack and write your own dialer | 20:48 |
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| Stskeeps | so, there would be an interest in a project, let's say, on top of 1.1, that backports some features and releases something every 1 1/2 month? | 20:48 |
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| TSCHAKeee2 | Stskeeps: sure | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | or just pushes some backports | 20:48 |
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| ShadowJK | and even MS has the monthly patch tuesday :-) | 20:49 |
| ShadowJK | or was it weekly | 20:49 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Yes. But less interest than in the obligatory bugfix updates. | 20:49 |
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| TSCHAKeee2 | I love my N900, I wanna keep it up to date with cool stuff | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: :nod: | 20:49 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Which should take absolute priority, unless you want Maemo/Meego Devices remain the laughing stock of the "technology bloggers" | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: meego.com, but sure | 20:50 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Whatever | 20:50 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | maemo is considered a laughing stock? | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | bug fixes would come anyway in normal meego release schedules | 20:50 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | I honestly thought we were being quietly ignored. | 20:50 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | :P | 20:50 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: All it really takes is 8-12 people specifically hired to do SUPPORT | 20:50 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | yes | 20:50 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: By fixing stuff. | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | a lot of bug fixes going into meego 1.0 netbook for instance | 20:51 |
| RST38h | TSCHAK: Google for "maemo support bugfixes" | 20:51 |
| thiago_home | meego is not maemo | 20:51 |
| thiago_home | and maemo does release fixes, they just take longer | 20:51 |
| ShadowJK | I think RST38h is afraid that since Nokia is involved, they will continue the good old tradition of N95, N97, N900 :) | 20:51 |
| RST38h | thiago: If you break your leg and I promise to mend it, but not now,maybe a year from now, what will you do? | 20:52 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Not afraid. I know it. | 20:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, this implies fault of the customer. | 20:52 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 20:52 |
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| qgil | CosmoHill: thanks so much, and as promised: http://identi.ca/notice/49344354 http://twitter.com/quimgil/status/23258071216 | 20:53 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: from what you're saying, it's a done decision. | 20:53 |
| thiago_home | then I don't see the point in continuing this conversation. | 20:53 |
| RST38h | thiago; What decision? About your leg? | 20:53 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | today's mandatory pessimism has been brought to you by the letter formerly known as Prince. | 20:53 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | :P | 20:53 |
| thiago_home | 19:50 < ShadowJK> I think RST38h is afraid that since Nokia is involved, they will continue the good old tradition of N95, N97, N900 :) | 20:53 |
| thiago_home | 19:51 < RST38h> ShadowJK: Not afraid. I know it. | 20:53 |
| RST38h | Today's mandatory pessimism has been brought to you by experience. | 20:54 |
| thiago_home | and by complete blindness to change | 20:54 |
| RST38h | thiago: Let us revisit this topic in about 6 months after the first Nokia's Meego device is released,ok? | 20:54 |
| CosmoHill | there were promises? | 20:54 |
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| CosmoHill | oh I see | 20:55 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: make that a real MeeGo device, not Harmattan | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | i'm talking about meego.com, whatever vendors does is their own business :P | 20:55 |
| RST38h | thiago: No. Make it Harmattan. | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Release_Timeline | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | for meego.com | 20:55 |
| RST38h | thiago: Let us stay away from illusory stuff for now | 20:55 |
| thiago_home | Harmattan is not MeeGo, so it will not follow any MeeGo release schedules | 20:55 |
| thiago_home | yet there should be updates | 20:56 |
| thiago_home | how often? no clue | 20:56 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah we've seen the vendor disconnect with android, google updates android but vendors think 1.6 is just fine and dandy and never upgrades :) | 20:56 |
| thiago_home | if we get two firmware updates a year, I'll be happ | 20:56 |
| thiago_home | y | 20:56 |
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| RST38h | tskeeps: the graph you have referred me to only has one place where time is inscribed and it is "2 months for feature development" | 20:57 |
| dwmw2 | if we don't have to *care* what the vendor does because we have completely open source software on the devices, I'll be happy | 20:57 |
| RST38h | thiago: This will depend on how much of the firmware is broken to begin with | 20:57 |
| dwmw2 | If I buy a computer, I shouldn't have to hope and pray that someone *else* will keep the software on it up to date. | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: and maintence 1 year from release | 20:57 |
| Robot101 | ShadowJK: haha | 20:57 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: the N97 will never happen again | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | damn, if I get a fix for a bug in desktop manager after 6 months, which eats 5% of CPU and 75% of battery life, then you darn know I'm *NOT* happy | 20:57 |
| RST38h | dwmw2: Actually you do have to care | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: as well http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Release_Timeline#Maintenance_phase | 20:58 |
| RST38h | thiago: How about N900? ;) | 20:58 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: nothing wrong with the original N900 image | 20:58 |
| thiago_home | and PR1.1 came soon after anyway | 20:58 |
| dwmw2 | RST38h: I *shouldn't* have to care. | 20:58 |
| ali1234 | "nothing"? | 20:58 |
| Robot101 | ShadowJK: its very hard for android OEMs to update android easily because there's not enough continuity between Google's different kernel trees for different android devices | 20:58 |
| Robot101 | ShadowJK: Android is *not* a good example to follow | 20:58 |
| thiago_home | nothing wrong for me, as a phone user | 20:58 |
| RST38h | thiago: Except for non-working mail client, etc | 20:58 |
| thiago_home | mail client worked fine | 20:58 |
| RST38h | noit did not | 20:59 |
| Robot101 | ShadowJK: it's not the mean vendors who are not updating things for you despite lovely google :P | 20:59 |
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| thiago_home | I'm pretty sure I read emails with PR1.0 | 20:59 |
| dwmw2 | thiago_home: the n900 mail client? Is there a way to make it reply properly? | 20:59 |
| RST38h | thiago: This does not mean it worked :) | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | we're drifting.. | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:59 |
| thiago_home | if it allowed me to read and write emails, I call that working | 20:59 |
| RST38h | thiago: Try selecting text in emails, in the CURRENT PR1.2 mail client. ;) | 20:59 |
| ShadowJK | N900 has been the first mobile device actually capable of reading my email, so I'm pretty happy with that :P (well, and N8x0 too of course) :P | 20:59 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: is that part of the feature set? | 20:59 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: E70 read my email just fine | 20:59 |
| dwmw2 | it can't seem to get quotes right -- it assumes you'll top-post. Although at least it includes References: headers, which the older Nx00 devices didn't | 20:59 |
| * epx happens to have like n900 mail client, too | 21:00 | |
| RST38h | thiago: Yes. | 21:00 |
| dwmw2 | I always just ran pine :) | 21:00 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: how is it supposed to work? | 21:00 |
| epx | s/like/liked/ | 21:00 |
| RST38h | thiago: Ability to copy text of the received emails IS a part of the feature set | 21:00 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, I never found any openvpn app for symbian, so I couldn't even talk to the mail server :( | 21:00 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: says who? | 21:00 |
| RST38h | thiago: Says pretty much every email user | 21:00 |
| thiago_home | no | 21:00 |
| ali1234 | and this is the problem: the "feature set" is defined by "the things that work properly" - any time anyone reports a bug, all they get is "sorry you'll have to make a feature request" | 21:00 |
| ali1234 | which is a total cop out | 21:00 |
| thiago_home | tell me the way that, according to the source code, it's supposed to work | 21:00 |
| * RST38h sighs | 21:01 | |
| ali1234 | especially when it's a trivial bug that would take maybe 3 hours of someone's time to fix | 21:01 |
| thiago_home | if copying text from the email was not part of the intended workflow, then it's not a bug | 21:01 |
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| thiago_home | call it shortcoming, call it misguided decision | 21:01 |
| thiago_home | but you can't call it a bug | 21:01 |
| dwmw2 | ali1234: who cares? Fix it, be happy. | 21:01 |
| RST38h | That is what makes Nokia a laughing stock | 21:01 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: yeah, market leader | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | like for example the day late birthdays in the calendar | 21:01 |
| RST38h | thiago: No, not that | 21:01 |
| thiago_home | people may laugh, but they still buy | 21:01 |
| RST38h | thiago: 100 users come to you and complain that they cannot copy/paste received emails | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | thiago_home: I call it a bug in specs | 21:02 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: how do you copy & paste emails on the original iPhone mail client? | 21:02 |
| lcuk | you try and get devs looking to add patches | 21:02 |
| lcuk | and see which works | 21:02 |
| RST38h | thiago: And you, with the straight face, are telling them that it "is not part of the feature set" | 21:02 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: remember? iPhone OS 1 didn't have copy & paste. | 21:02 |
| ali1234 | dwmw2: i agree that the community should stop complaining and just fix it themselves | 21:02 |
| RST38h | thiago: I do not give a shit about iPhone | 21:02 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, technically at that point, you offer patches to the spec | 21:02 |
| lcuk | and go round review etc | 21:02 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: so Apple is laughing stock too? | 21:02 |
| RST38h | thiago: But in PINE (circa 1986) I highlight stuff with the mouse and paste it elsewhere | 21:02 |
| lcuk | if theres a groundswell of opinion you ask yourself why | 21:02 |
| ali1234 | dwmw2: unfortunately with maemo it means rewriting nearly all of the UI from scratch | 21:02 |
| ShadowJK | You never get to see the specs before buying, so you don't know whether copypasting works in just in one app or universally :-) | 21:03 |
| RST38h | thiago: Same in GMail | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: I don't care who you give a shit to. You have to give a shit to Apple. Everyone is competing with them and trying to best them. | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: they set the standard | 21:03 |
| RST38h | thiago: Same in Evolution, Outlook, you name it | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | I can run Evolution on my N900?! | 21:03 |
| * lcuk considers irc a good form of review | 21:03 | |
| thiago_home | Outlook even? | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: common sense applies | 21:03 |
| RST38h | thiago <-- playing a clown | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | no | 21:03 |
| * TSCHAKeee2 passes happy pills all around | 21:03 | |
| microlith | oh and apparently Froyo added support for exchange provisioning, does any one know if that code is open source? | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | tell me of a mail client for phones that supports that? | 21:03 |
| thiago_home | I don't care about desktop or webmails at this point | 21:04 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee2, have you seen gas balls on maemo? | 21:04 |
| lcuk | its awesome | 21:04 |
| RST38h | thiago: Google Mail. | 21:04 |
| lcuk | on ovi | 21:04 |
| RST38h | thiago: Supports that. | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: on Android? | 21:04 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | lcuk: yes, it's beautiful | 21:04 |
| ali1234 | a mail client for phones that supports copy and paste? | 21:04 |
| RST38h | thiago: PINE, whenrun in XTerm supports that | 21:04 |
| ali1234 | are you serious? | 21:04 |
| * lcuk is so pleased he released it | 21:04 | |
| RST38h | No, thiago, when run on your N900. | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: if I buy a phone then I expect it does all the things a phone usually can do, like SSC | 21:04 |
| RST38h | Inside a bloody MicroB | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: not inside a browser | 21:04 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: tell me 3 mail clients on any phone that are not browsers and support text copying | 21:04 |
| RST38h | thiago: You are a clown. I will stop now. | 21:04 |
| ali1234 | google mail java mobile app | 21:04 |
| lcuk | RST38h, your points about mail are noted, did you file them officially anywhere | 21:04 |
| ali1234 | the mail client in windows mobile | 21:05 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: funny, I think the same about you. | 21:05 |
| RST38h | lcuk: There is a bug on that | 21:05 |
| * thiago_home adds a permanent ignore | 21:05 | |
| RST38h | lcuk: Want the ID? | 21:05 |
| lcuk | yes | 21:05 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, well if the marketing armies have confiscated the specs so you can't see them, then all you ahve to go by is your expectations, and then the forums overflow with people when there's an expectations disconnect :) | 21:05 |
| lcuk | but take it to #maemo | 21:05 |
| DawnFoster | just a quick reminder: http://wiki.meego.com/IRC_guidelines :) | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: there's no need to mention in spoecs "can transmit speech outbound. Can receive speech inbound..." | 21:05 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Even discussed it with DocScrutinizer. I think we know the cause, but nobody has time/ability to fix it | 21:05 |
| ShadowJK | mine kinda randomly fails at the latter once a week or so.. :) | 21:06 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: how can you QA against features that you don't know exist? :) | 21:06 |
| thiago_home | DawnFoster: sorry, I'll just be quiet for a while, while I vent off. | 21:06 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, play with your gas balls | 21:07 |
| * CosmoHill wonders what he's missed | 21:07 | |
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| ali1234 | in my opinion the only way to fix this problem is to completely upstage the companies responsible, in the way that cyanogen does with android | 21:07 |
| thiago_home | CosmoHill: nothing. "Something" requires a constructive discussion, and we didn't have one. | 21:07 |
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| thiago_home | CosmoHill: partly my fault. | 21:07 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: frustration stemming from handset upgrade policies, basically :P | 21:07 |
| CosmoHill | okay | 21:08 |
| * Stskeeps ponders making some tea | 21:08 | |
| CosmoHill | if you do I'll have a cup :) | 21:08 |
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| DawnFoster | *drinking tea and observing* | 21:08 |
| ali1234 | basically no amount of complaining is going to fix it, it requires action | 21:08 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, actually you did have one. reread it later with fresh eyes :) | 21:08 |
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| thiago_home | lcuk: when the discussion degenerates to swearing, I can't honestly call it constructive. | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: that's a problem of reviewing the specs, and have people with common sense reading and interpreting them. QA of a comprehensive feature spec is a hard task to do | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: :nod: quality is hard | 21:09 |
| thiago_home | funny, I'd prefer that people spend more time in writing features, than a 40-page specification for a calculator | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: but yeah, good speccing is important | 21:10 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: This particular feature does exist | 21:10 |
| thiago_home | but I'll just go be quiet now... ttl | 21:10 |
| CosmoHill | bye bye | 21:10 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: It is called "system-wide copy&paste functionality in text fields" | 21:10 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, the swearing came at the very end, listen to the points, its why we have scrollback :) | 21:10 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: And yes, it is as simple as that. Got a text field? Should be able to copy&paste there. | 21:11 |
| lcuk | and you are right, 40 pages is wayyyyyy too much, theres already a fully tested open osso_calculator_backend available :P | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: Andy and me had a harsh argument about overvoltage protection in the hardware. USB specs say NOMINAL is 4.5 to 5.5V, So there's primarily nothing odd with your device breaking on 5.6V | 21:11 |
| ali1234 | yeah, it's one thing to have a good spec, but you also need developers with common sense, "the spec doesn't say anything about copy&paste therefore we will go out of our way to totally remove it" vs "the spec doesn't mention copy&paste so we will follow the system defaults" | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | but *common sense* tells you it ought be better than that, to deal with everydsay shit | 21:11 |
| CosmoHill | DawnFoster: can I pm you? | 21:11 |
| ShadowJK | Universal copy/paste is something windows fails at too, most error messages are impossible to copy (well, I'm told there's this magic keycombo plus mouseclick combination, but I don't remember it, and neither does users).. :) | 21:12 |
| DawnFoster | CosmoHill: sure | 21:12 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: And yes, it is damn frustrating when someone takes the "not in the feature list" clause on stuff like this. Pretty much amounts to developer not giving a shit about its users. | 21:12 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: BTW, notice how I have not even mentioned POP3 accounts or memory leakage ;))) | 21:13 |
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| ali1234 | or MfE google support | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i don't understand why i'm getting the last 4-5 messages from you, i was responding to docscrutinizer. please take maemo feature frustration to maemo. feature roadmaps are in bugs.meego.com here. | 21:13 |
| Stskeeps | and discussable and hopefully done in the right way. | 21:14 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | as an example | 21:14 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | "Nokia Sucks" is not the right way to get a developer on your side | 21:15 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | just...lobbing that out there. | 21:15 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | ;) | 21:15 |
| CosmoHill | Stskeeps: can I pm you now? | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: go ahead | 21:15 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: You are getting them because there are all reasons to believe that exactly the same problems will occur in Meego | 21:16 |
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| ShadowJK | re past common user complaints, I sure hope someone clever has had the time to look at emmc performance issues for meego so we can get rid of the "it stutters, waah waah waah" complaints :) | 21:16 |
| lcuk | no RST38h Stskeeps is 100% right that everything is there | 21:16 |
| lcuk | and if everything follows it will be better, even the specs are there and can be commented on now | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: I.e. broken initial firmware, a couple of formal updates, half the legitimate complaints swept under the carpet with the "not in the feature set" or "works for me" comment | 21:17 |
| lcuk | so the only reason for it not to be is if you don't read them | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i have no effect on requirements process other than suggesting, participating and viewing. | 21:17 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | emmc will always be slow | 21:17 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | deal | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps; Yes, I understand that. So, this whole discussion is, of course, futile. | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Nobody care if you agree or disagree with the need for regular bugfix updates. It will not be decided here. | 21:19 |
| ShadowJK | TSCHAKeee2, emmc speed varies by a factor of 64 or more depending on the access patterns :) | 21:19 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: there's a commitment to bugfix updates in meego.com. | 21:19 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | ShadowJK: true. ;) | 21:19 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: go read the page i referred to later and read it over a cup of tea. | 21:19 |
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| Stskeeps | to earlier, that is | 21:20 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Yes, but will this commitment lead to regular bugfix updates for the actual handsets? | 21:20 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: don't know. | 21:20 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Rrright :) | 21:21 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: honestly, i have no idea. | 21:21 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: that's up to the individual vendors and products. | 21:21 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: Exactly. Do you want me to gaze into my crystal balls for you? | 21:22 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: are you here to discuss meego.com or nokia? | 21:22 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: I am here to discuss Meego. That is the name of the channel, right? | 21:22 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: the channel belongs to meego.com project. | 21:23 |
| ali1234 | i don't like how the companies involved in meego attempt to firewall themselves by claiming meego is a community project | 21:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | +1 | 21:23 |
| ali1234 | but then totally ignore what the community has to say | 21:23 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Ok, I have got the hint | 21:23 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: got an example? | 21:25 |
| vgrade | Meego on Nexus One - http://twitpic.com/2m6svy - Instructions will be posted at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/MSMQSD | 21:25 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: the ssse3 issue | 21:25 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: what's your definition of a community project? | 21:26 |
| VDVsx | ali1234, google Mfe works on maemo5 last time I checked, but they don't fully support Mfe anyway | 21:26 |
| ali1234 | VDVsx: it works, but all contact's birthdays are displayed one day late | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: think it's good to get our terms equal before discussing.. | 21:26 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: my definition is irrelevant - the problem is that the meego definition is self-contradicting | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: nah, it's not irrelevant | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: how would you like to have seen the issue handled? | 21:27 |
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| Stskeeps | (honestly) | 21:27 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: either say "sorry this isn't a community project, it is only open to hardware vendors, so we will not support ssse3 because nobody is selling that hardware with meego" | 21:28 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: *or* say "ok, the community wants non-ssse3 so we will make non-ssse3" | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: that's meta.. let's get to how it should have been dealt with, like, if it was implemented? | 21:29 |
| ali1234 | pick one, and stick to it | 21:29 |
| ali1234 | don't use either definition when it suits you best | 21:29 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i don't mind if it is not implemented | 21:29 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: but what we hear is "oh it is up to the community to provide that" | 21:29 |
| ali1234 | well i thought meego.com was the community | 21:30 |
| ali1234 | so which is it? | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | let me just write something.. | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | ok, but my point is that in any project there will need to be people who support it, there will need to be build machine power sponsored to handle it, there will be need for people to do something, plan, etc. | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | when something needs to be done (roadmapped), it gets seen if anyone wants to pay for it/volunteer for it/whatever, to get it done | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | we have a problem if we see ourselves as customers of nokia/intel and we 'demand' they do something/spend resources on it. | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | hence, if it should be done, people should grab a shovel and do it (like we are) | 21:32 |
| ali1234 | so are we customers, or equal members of the community? | 21:32 |
| ali1234 | if i want to make a non-ssse3 build, how do i do it without forking meego? | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: by contributing back the patches | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | same way as everywhere else | 21:33 |
| DawnFoster | Details here: http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/nonSSSE3 | 21:33 |
| ali1234 | you really think patches which revert all the intel patches that add ssse3 support will be accepted? | 21:33 |
| ali1234 | i;ve heard "oh send patches" before | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: if you do it in such a way that it doesn't break current 'atom' build, sure | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, it should be theoretically possible | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | from what i have seen of the code, all the ssse3 patches are guarded anyway | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | which leaves only one thing: adding a new build target for non-ssse3 | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | so what patches do you actually need to implement this? | 21:35 |
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| Stskeeps | there's some nasty gcc patches that needs to be more ecosystem friendly. | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | despite what is so often claimed, it really is only a matter of flipping a switch somewhere | 21:35 |
| lcuk | prjconf patch which has a POC in that wiki link DawnFoster specified | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | "send patches" is just the standard brush-off for this topic | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: send patches is perfectly normal in any open source project | 21:36 |
| lcuk | afaik there are no code patches? | 21:36 |
| lcuk | the patch is to the build environment | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: asking for patches for an issue which *does not require any code to be patched* is just comical | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: there is code needed to be patched. | 21:37 |
| lcuk | ali1234, build configuration scripts | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | where is it? | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: gcc at least | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | i had to hack it in my nonssse3_bootstrap | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | gcc needs to be patched to not generate ssse3 code? really? funny the version on my machine doesn't seem to need that patch | 21:37 |
| lcuk | hmm | 21:37 |
| DawnFoster | We even have an escalation process for when patches aren't properly addressed: http://meego.com/about/contribution-guidelines | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: but since we're on build target.. who buys the build time needed for being an equal participant? | 21:37 |
| lcuk | that does sound odd Stskeeps | 21:37 |
| lcuk | gcc shouldnt be ssse3 slanted | 21:38 |
| lcuk | it can generate code if you tell it it has a chip of that type | 21:38 |
| lcuk | but its a command line option surely? | 21:38 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: 'GCC default setup for x86 following optflags/command line parameters instead of atom-specific patch' | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | search for that on meego-dev | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | it describes the issue | 21:39 |
| lcuk | egads | 21:39 |
| lcuk | so gcc core has that patch? | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | DawnFoster: what's the escalation process when developers stonewall by asking for patches that don't make sense? | 21:40 |
| lcuk | since meego.com only uses upstreamed components? | 21:40 |
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| Stskeeps | lcuk: no, there can be meego specific patches | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | difficult to get around | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | (as in, when doing a realistic os) | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: got an example of a patch asking that doesn't make sense? | 21:42 |
| odin_ | what is the status of a public-access OBS platform this week ? I see that build.meego.com has been slowly loosing section from the homepage by anonymous/guest users, so I guess someone is working on something. | 21:42 |
| ali1234 | "please send a patch to make meego work on non-ssse3" | 21:42 |
| ali1234 | ^ this only requires the reversion of all the patches intel made | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: right, and you do actually need some patches | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | well | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | there's an addendum we even have on arm | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | "please send a patch to make meego X work on Y as well as not break Z" | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | kernel, glibc, xorg, gtk, qt, all worked just fine without ssse3 before meego existed | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | that's pretty obvious | 21:43 |
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| lcuk | does meego build with the intel compiler *grin8 ? | 21:43 |
| lcuk | * even | 21:44 |
| ali1234 | the thing is, a non-ssse3 build does not break anything | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: .. it kinda does, it changes behaviour | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: noone says you can't do #ifdef NONSSSE3 on some patches | 21:45 |
| ali1234 | it changes behaviour which worked fine for years, yess | 21:45 |
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| ali1234 | but discussing ssse3 stuff is pointless | 21:45 |
| ali1234 | i would rather discuss the meta issue: meego can't decide if it is a community project or not | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | we can both agree it's better to do the actual work. | 21:46 |
| odin_ | is there no one that knows anything about OBS anymore... it was hailed as the way to contribute back in May this year, it was just a few weeks away back in May this year, what seems to be the problem with it? At the moment MeeGo is as closed as Maemo is/was, to an outside party SRPMS are provided to cover GPL legal obligations but there is no community ecosystem | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: there's active community obs work going on and obs 2.1 was installed recently | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: so things are improving | 21:46 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, hmm | 21:46 |
| lcuk | sorry, old line | 21:46 |
| ali1234 | to take another example, what is the proper place to discuss community activities like non-ssse3 builds? | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | because whenever anyone raises it on the ML, they get attacked by intel developers, as if the mailing list is not for the community | 21:47 |
| * CosmoHill breaks out vmware and takes a crack at non SSSE3 meego | 21:47 | |
| odin_ | just ignore intel developers | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | so is meego-dev for use by community members or what? | 21:47 |
| odin_ | they will do whatever they will do | 21:48 |
| lcuk | vgrade, you seem to be having fun building meego on strange devices | 21:48 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: another good question is definition of what community means | 21:48 |
| lcuk | any chance you can knowck up an x86 native for those rarebeasts? | 21:48 |
| lcuk | :D | 21:48 |
| lcuk | knock | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: well there's no point asking me, because apparently i;m not a member of it, or something | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | i don't even know | 21:49 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: i'd say you're a member of the community. | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | i mean, i have an account on meego.com | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | a more pertinent question is, who decides what the meego definition of community is? | 21:49 |
| Stskeeps | from the definition that meego community consists of project work and the orbiting activities. orbiting activities can turn into product activities. or reverse. | 21:49 |
| vgrade | lcuk, I gave up on the battles and continued hacking :) | 21:49 |
| thiago_home | ali1234: the community :-) | 21:49 |
| odin_ | ali1234, the community gets to decide :) | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: uh... yeah... can you explain that in english please? | 21:49 |
| odin_ | the community != Nokia + Intel | 21:50 |
| thiago_home | the community includes Nokia and Intel though | 21:50 |
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| Dogukan | hi | 21:50 |
| lcuk | vgrade, and good for you, you look like you are having fun playing with all those devices | 21:50 |
| odin_ | thiago, yes sure | 21:50 |
| lcuk | which one have you built that runs best so far? | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: right. there's the activities that deal with delivering meego releases. then there's the activities that surround these activities. this could be non-ssse3. non-ssse3 could be integrated into being a project activity ('official activity') | 21:50 |
| ali1234 | what does "official" mean? | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | who decides what is official? | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | means the stuff that goes into meego releases | 21:51 |
| odin_ | there is no such thing as "official activity" just what the commercial elements have put their money towards | 21:51 |
| vgrade | lcuk, nonSSSE3, GMA500 and now Android MSMQSD all have pages on the wiki and people can get involved | 21:51 |
| Dogukan | does anyone try to install meego to asus eepc 1005ha? | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: or people in general have committed to maintaining and developing. | 21:51 |
| lcuk | which meego apps build from same source and are integrated on both sides (netbook and handheld) ? | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | lcuk... er... core? | 21:52 |
| lcuk | (front end apps) | 21:52 |
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| lcuk | vgrade, i meant which device runs fastest - model etc | 21:52 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: that's the pattern in use in requirements process. to get a feature roadmapped, it requires people with shovels and will and commitment. | 21:52 |
| odin_ | sure and there must be other groups of people who look at that, "as just another set of closed doors", since only those people have read and commit access to OBS | 21:53 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: do you have direct access to the debian builders without doing debian work? | 21:53 |
| odin_ | until that cycle is broken, meego is just a collection of promises from an elite few | 21:53 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: the debian builders aren't required to build debian packages | 21:53 |
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| vgrade | lcuk, joggler is best, I have handset, netbook and ivi on there | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: so isn't meego | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | as witnessed by community obs | 21:54 |
| odin_ | no take opensuse as example. YES I have direct access to their OBS, what has debian go to do with anything | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: oh really? can you tell me how to compile all of meego in my own OBS yet? | 21:54 |
| odin_ | I also have direct access to my own OBS platform and full commit rights, just nod ata | 21:54 |
| odin_ | *no data | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: a way that actually works | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: yes, gladly, but i've told you your approach is bad | 21:54 |
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| ali1234 | Stskeeps: going back to that request for non-ssse3 patches, can you tell me how i am supposed to develop and test such patches at this time? | 21:55 |
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| ali1234 | again, a way that actually works, not a way that could work if i fixed 100 other bugs first | 21:56 |
| lcuk | vgrade, do you have an image for joggler of the handset? | 21:56 |
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| lcuk | and can it be made available from meego.com servers (I guess it would have to be properly | 21:57 |
| * lcuk has a joggler | 21:57 | |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: set up OBS. import the current set of x86 binaries (public). set up prjconf of this (public). import all source rpms using a bit of scripting. start patching. adjust prjconf to fit. rebuild gcc and glibc, and then trigger rebuilds on last. | 21:57 |
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| Stskeeps | last/remaining | 21:57 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: that's what i did on community obs. | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | which is non-ssse3 machine | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: what did you do about all the srpms that won;t compile? | 21:58 |
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| thiago_home | Stskeeps: is it at least producing i586 binaries? | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: your problems with srpms not compiling is due to the fedora inheritance chain you had | 21:58 |
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| Stskeeps | thiago_home: yeah, had to have a baseline somewhere.. | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: ok, good | 21:59 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: just to be sure you didn't go insane and started producing i386 packages :-) | 22:00 |
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| Stskeeps | thiago_home: meego on my 80186 | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | ! | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: my point being that there is some patches to be done and some patches may need changing to fit with a dual atom and "non-ssse3" mode | 22:00 |
| lcuk | would make you appreciate the cycles | 22:00 |
| odin_ | well the i386 is more a "reference implementation" that should work on anything, | 22:00 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: so if i use your i586 build to build all the srpms, they will all compile, and i should report bugs against any that don't? | 22:00 |
| odin_ | where as an i686 (non-ssse3) is probably what most will want to use | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: right, or provide patches | 22:01 |
| odin_ | i585 is just Pentium 1, i686 is PentiumPro (i.e. SMP support and beyond) | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | odin_: yeah, except that most packages don't run on 80386 processors anymore | 22:01 |
| odin_ | so i585 is as dead as 486/386 practically | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: as a fun issue, i have glib2 failing to build | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | i don't understand why | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | (test cases fail) | 22:02 |
| thiago_home | Qt for example doesn't run on the original 80386 or 80486 | 22:02 |
| odin_ | opps keep saying 585 s/585/586/ | 22:02 |
| thiago_home | some later 486 have the necessary instructions | 22:02 |
| lcuk | hint: thats not 486 :P | 22:02 |
| lcuk | linux kernel still builds on everything I assume | 22:03 |
| lcuk | which is the benchmark | 22:03 |
| odin_ | is the technological issue poor SMP awareness (in 386/486/486) ? | 22:03 |
| thiago_home | no | 22:03 |
| thiago_home | missing instructions | 22:03 |
| odin_ | which is now needed by Qt since everything is SMP aware | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i don't personally have time to work on it, but good workmanship can make patches that work both on non-ssse3 (we should really get a name for this) without changing atom gcc/whatever behaviour | 22:03 |
| odin_ | which ones ? atomic exchange/compare/swap ? | 22:04 |
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| thiago_home | personally, I think that an SSE2 build is the biggest leap | 22:04 |
| thiago_home | odin_: yes | 22:04 |
| thiago_home | odin_: also atomic fetch-and-add | 22:04 |
| odin_ | then I am correct, poor SMP awareness is the technological issue with supporting 386/486/586 | 22:04 |
| thiago_home | well, no. You don't need SMP to need atomic ops. | 22:05 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: but this is getting sidetracked from the meta issue again. is your i586 build a meego community project? if yes, why isn't it available on meego.com? | 22:05 |
| thiago_home | 386 can interrupt any process at any instruction | 22:05 |
| odin_ | but they were introduced BECAUSE of SMP | 22:05 |
| thiago_home | external interrupts, including a time-sharing kernel | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: cos cbuild.meego.com isn't set up yet :) | 22:05 |
| odin_ | not mid instruction but at the start or end of instruction | 22:05 |
| thiago_home | odin_: yes | 22:05 |
| thiago_home | odin_: but it can interrupt between two instructions | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: to be specific it's in my homedir on the maemo.org obs which was for testing purposes | 22:05 |
| thiago_home | odin_: if you don't have an atomic fetch-and-add instruction, you can't guarantee the atomicity | 22:06 |
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| odin_ | ok but even the i386 has the LOCK instruction prefix | 22:06 |
| thiago_home | but not XADD | 22:06 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: the reasoning for having seperate build.meego.com and cbuild.meego.com is a valid concern when you've tried working with OBS build avalanches for a while.. | 22:06 |
| odin_ | sure but that was for SMP awareness | 22:06 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i mean why isn't it available on the meego.com/downloads | 22:06 |
| thiago_home | I'm pretty sure 386 and 486 supported SMP | 22:06 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: cos it's not part of project process and most importantly, non-QA'ed and i haven't committed to maintaining it. | 22:06 |
| odin_ | yes they did from companies like corollary who make expensive specialised chipsets to do it | 22:07 |
| thiago_home | anyway, that's not importnat | 22:07 |
| odin_ | but it was the PentiumPro which was the first CPU and chipset that supported it that was cheap and anyone could do it | 22:07 |
| thiago_home | I doubt it makes any economic sense to target those chips today | 22:07 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: what commitment has been made for the other versions? | 22:07 |
| thiago_home | i586 and i686 are the baseline | 22:07 |
| thiago_home | and if there's any big jump in performance, it's SSE2 support | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: intel has committed to maintaining their toolchain and OBS build resources | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: arm is committed by nokia to maintain | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | (and hopefully soon othes) | 22:08 |
| ali1234 | what does "maintain" mean? | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | in case bug reports come in that are whatever-specific, you are responsible to fix the issue in reasonable time | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | ie, glibc can't lay broken for several months | 22:08 |
| ali1234 | because, as discussed earlier, the nokia definition of "maintain" seems to mean "fulfills the feature requirement" where "features" means "what works when we shove it out the door" | 22:09 |
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| Stskeeps | right, this isn't the nokia definition | 22:09 |
| ali1234 | so, if all i have to do is make some patches, define the feature list as "what currently works" and then keep it online in perpituity, and close all bug reports as "WONTFIX" then, i think i canhandle that | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | uhm.. | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:10 |
| odin_ | I really don't think it is such a huge issue, remember we would be standing on the shoulders of giants, who shall be doing all the heavy lifting :P | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | can we cut the sarcasm and talk how things -actually- are done? :P | 22:10 |
| ali1234 | i am not being sarcastic | 22:10 |
| ali1234 | i really would be quite happy to do that | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | maintaining means "keep it working" | 22:11 |
| ali1234 | why would it stop working? | 22:11 |
| odin_ | I look at an i386/486 as simply a reference implementation for SDK purpose and the like but an 586/686 (whatever you call it) for legacy intel devices :P | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | things stop working occasionally | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | patches stop applying | 22:11 |
| timeless | being realistic isn't helpful here ;fb | 22:11 |
| tekojo | maintaining means committing to the feature process | 22:11 |
| ali1234 | only if the code changed | 22:11 |
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| Stskeeps | ali1234: in any normal distro, this does | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | we've had glibc break at upgrades quite often | 22:11 |
| ali1234 | who's upgrading? | 22:11 |
| ali1234 | you want updates? | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | we follow upstream versions | 22:12 |
| timeless | gcc managed to break its own libffi | 22:12 |
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| timeless | breaks happen | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: well, just telling you the way that build targets are actually handled in the project process | 22:12 |
| timeless | although one would hope that a given project would have tests to ensure the code it ships is self consistent | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: library upgrades will happen, kernel upgrades will happen, etc. | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | and your build target has to have a green 'succeeded' each week | 22:13 |
| timeless | stskeeps: what happens when a taregt doesn't? | 22:13 |
| odin_ | I think OBS really does cut a lot of work down, compare to previous method of package maintenance | 22:13 |
| timeless | nokia internally manages not to have one of those for a couple of weeks at a time | 22:13 |
| odin_ | but build.meego.com needs to provide at least read-only access to all packages | 22:14 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: i agree with that, could you open a bug report linking to openness metabug? | 22:14 |
| odin_ | if the hold up is that some packages are binary only, I think a seperate meego core OBS should be used to handle those | 22:14 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: no hold-up | 22:14 |
| * Cosmo[PB] gets annoyed and gives up | 22:14 | |
| Cosmo[PB] | apt-get install this | 22:14 |
| odin_ | well I guess we're all waiting for OBS 2.1 to be installed because of the ACLs | 22:14 |
| Cosmo[PB] | can't install, dependances not met | 22:14 |
| Cosmo[PB] | well bloody well install them | 22:15 |
| timeless | odin: does it not do that today? | 22:15 |
| X-Fade | odin_: I think that was blocking on the upgrade to 2.x. Which introduced acls for that? | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | timeless: it impacts QA directly, test results, that we don't get binaries build against the right api mix, bug reports may be already outdated.. | 22:15 |
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| odin_ | so that the binary only packages don't have their source code leaked ? I am thinking source code such as this should never be uploaded outside of Nokia | 22:15 |
| X-Fade | Hmm lag ;) | 22:15 |
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| ali1234 | again, technical details. the issue is that intel holds the community to a higher standard than itself | 22:15 |
| * timeless needs to get mxr.meego.org cron'd | 22:15 | |
| ali1234 | for example, intel does not worry about applying patches with break on non-ssse3 machines, so why should i care about making patches which do anything more than revert the broken intel patches? | 22:16 |
| odin_ | it was May when I was first told OBS will be with us in 2 weeks (at that time is was the community obs platform) but it does come to light that even build.meego.com used to create code is behind closed doors | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: no, when x86 things build arm things, we get a bit angry | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | same will go for whatever breaking x86, or whatever breaking arm | 22:16 |
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| ali1234 | if meego was a real community project, it would not accept patches from intel that break i586 compatibility | 22:17 |
| thiago_home | ali1234: because simply reverting a patch without constructive discussion is rude | 22:17 |
| ali1234 | that's my definition :) | 22:17 |
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| thiago_home | ali1234: if Intel breaks a non-SSSE3 build, then you have the right to have them fix it | 22:18 |
| thiago_home | but simply reverting? no | 22:18 |
| ali1234 | ok fair enough | 22:18 |
| timeless | thiago: i don't see why anyone should be able to push such a break | 22:18 |
| Stskeeps | timeless: now that processes are up and running, we do catch issues early on | 22:18 |
| odin_ | because they paid for the equipment | 22:18 |
| timeless | in realm:mozilla.org, you're expected to push to a "try" server which builds on all supported platforms | 22:19 |
| thiago_home | timeless: they shouldn't, but stuff happens | 22:19 |
| ali1234 | so if i fix up all of meego, and then maintain and support it to the same standard as intel and nokia do for their builds, can i get a commitment from intel that all their subsequent patches will be non-ssse3 friendly? | 22:19 |
| timeless | in realm:mozilla.org, you're expected to push to a "try" server which builds on all supported platforms | 22:19 |
| timeless | well, i'm now using o2 for internet access | 22:19 |
| thiago_home | timeless: if the breakage is caught before accepted, then it should get fixed | 22:19 |
| timeless | and if for some reason you do manage to push something which breaks a supported platform | 22:19 |
| thiago_home | timeless: if it leaks through, it should still get fixed | 22:19 |
| timeless | you're expected to fix it or back out w/in a few hours | 22:19 |
| ali1234 | or do i basically have to follow intel around with a dustpan and brush, fixing every patch they ever make? | 22:19 |
| thiago_home | timeless: same for Qt, but unfortunately not all builds are fast enough | 22:19 |
| timeless | you are not allowed to leave a break in | 22:20 |
| thiago_home | timeless: that ARM processor feature detection I added to Qt, for example, passed the first stage | 22:20 |
| thiago_home | but it broke on slower builds | 22:20 |
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| lcuk | timeless, how many platforms does mozilla codebase build against? | 22:20 |
| timeless | and if you do, it is perfectly legal for anyone to back you ot | 22:20 |
| thiago_home | I *still* had to fix it, though | 22:20 |
| thiago_home | hmm... you know, I agree | 22:20 |
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| odin_ | you have to cut a little slack, due to the "newness" of MeeGo, however they can only have so much time to sort stuff out that was promised a while ago (or on the outset) | 22:20 |
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| timeless | lcuk: more than meego | 22:21 |
| timeless | arm, ppc, x86, x86-64 at least, not counting sparc and a few others | 22:21 |
| * Cosmo[PB] sighs | 22:21 | |
| thiago_home | but on the other hand, there's such a thing as the value of a platform | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: denying a change to go into trunk is a delay that costs money and time in practice. but over time, things even out and people think before committing broken code. | 22:21 |
| lcuk | timeless, heh, ok so oyu have similar expanse as qt | 22:21 |
| lcuk | you | 22:21 |
| thiago_home | when we release Qt, we ensure that it builds on all Tier 1 and 2 platforms | 22:21 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: as well as QA would say there's something wrong when non-ssse3 suddenly stops working | 22:21 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, when its against an intel product though | 22:21 |
| lcuk | thats just due diligence :P | 22:21 |
| thiago_home | but if problems exist on others? We won't stop the release. | 22:22 |
| odin_ | the problem is that Intel has put SSSE3 requirement on the table, but the community is rejecting it | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | breakages on Tier 2 platforms are allowed to exist for some time. They have to be fixed eventually though. | 22:22 |
| timeless | lcuk: we're both cross platform toolkits, yes | 22:22 |
| odin_ | and Intel claim the community is important, there is nothing wrong with an SSSE3 requirement whoever the community would like their say about the hoops that Intel must jump | 22:22 |
| timeless | fwiw, i'm on a train w/ 3g or no signal (and one to two bars when i'm lucky) | 22:22 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: i'm pro SSSE3 but i'm also pro a non-SSSE3 build. | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | odin_: I wouldn't say rejecting. No one is opposing an SSSE3-optimised build. | 22:22 |
| lcuk | indeed | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | odin_: but only that? no, that is opposed. | 22:23 |
| odin_ | and the problem as I see it, is that Intel is not listening | 22:23 |
| ali1234 | yeah | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | it's not all black and white | 22:23 |
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| lcuk | most non-SSE3 machines are faster anyway since the atom is geared for low end battery saving etc | 22:23 |
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| lcuk | SSSE3 | 22:23 |
| thiago_home | if someone came and said "here, we're giving resources to a MIPS build", would you oppose? | 22:23 |
| thiago_home | "no, we need a non-SSSE3 x86 build, so you can't add MIPS" | 22:24 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, yes I am that too, I agree Intel should have their optimized build as I think this is good, but... their methods need to be tweaked a little | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: patches. :) | 22:24 |
| * thiago_home agrees on that | 22:24 | |
| timeless | fwiw, i had a 45min long phone call w/ a guy in london today | 22:24 |
| timeless | (i was in london, but the tube strike prevented a more traditional coffee) | 22:24 |
| ali1234 | thiago_home: what if someone came in and said "we are buying meego from intel and nokia, we're turning off all the existing build workers and in future will only provide mips builds" | 22:24 |
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| thiago_home | ali1234: well, you can't buy open source | 22:24 |
| odin_ | patches to what ? the OBS is closed.. there is not even read-only access to build.meego.com to download the SCM copy of the system, to my own OBS platform to build stuff (we I shall write a bug shortly) | 22:25 |
| X-Fade | ali1234: fork! :) | 22:25 |
| ali1234 | "we will submit patches which break building on x86, but if you want to fix them, that's up to you. but we wont help you in any way, in fact, we will make it as difficult for you as we can" | 22:25 |
| timeless | what was interesting was that he underlined the need for a platform to have a healthy "ecosystem" | 22:25 |
| thiago_home | ali1234: that I agree with you | 22:25 |
| odin_ | X-Fade, yes I think I can run a meego alternative SDK/arch form OBS, only thing I need is distribution points/mirrors | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: these patches originated from pre meego times. we weren't rebuilding the entire OS from scratch | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: we did rip out a fair bit though.. | 22:26 |
| thiago_home | I might be away from the builds, but where exactly are the SSSE3 optimisations hampering non-SSSE3? | 22:26 |
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| timeless | err, isn't obs an open source product? | 22:26 |
| ali1234 | thiago_home: nobody even knows for sure :( | 22:26 |
| X-Fade | The thing with opensource is, if the main project goes into a direction a lot of people don't like; you can always fork the project. | 22:26 |
| thiago_home | timeless: yes | 22:26 |
| X-Fade | Worst case of course. | 22:26 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, no but some of us _DO_ wish to rebuild the entire OS from scratch and have been waiting for the opportunity do so do since June, within the OBS framework and the wiki guidlines to do this | 22:26 |
| timeless | x-fade: doesn't work | 22:26 |
| timeless | what matters is where the mony is | 22:27 |
| thiago_home | odin_: if you set up your own OBS, what's missing? | 22:27 |
| thiago_home | honest question, I don't know | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: grab rpms, import rpms to obs, import prjconf, import srpms | 22:27 |
| odin_ | SRPMS don't cut it, I want access to api.meego.com and build.meego.com to use 'osc' | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: but why do you need it? | 22:27 |
| odin_ | if I am going to grab SRPMS I might as well do it from source, like gnu.org for GCC | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | SRPMS == obs package contents | 22:27 |
| ali1234 | odin_: in theory everything you need for that is available, but in practice the whole system is so buggy and hard to use that it is almost impossible to set up your own | 22:27 |
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| thiago_home | what would help there? | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | if it is impossible, why have companies and even myself managed to do it? | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:28 |
| odin_ | to take the openSUSE example, I can checkout a project/package locally, I can not do this with MeeGo until then the SRPM are nothing more than any other closed system that must honor their GPL legal requirements | 22:28 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: cos you have lbt to help you :) | 22:29 |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i said "almost" impossible :) | 22:29 |
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| X-Fade | For the community OBS we also just import packages. We don't need API access. | 22:29 |
| thiago_home | odin_: what is missing then? Is it some sort of "distribution build rules", package manifests? | 22:29 |
| odin_ | I don't need community OBS, I have my own | 22:29 |
| X-Fade | We just import packages from the mirror. | 22:30 |
| odin_ | I am after read-only access to MeeGo core, what you want to be my "upstream" | 22:30 |
| odin_ | if I can't use it as a proper upstream, should I bypass it ? | 22:30 |
| odin_ | grab GCC from gnu.org | 22:30 |
| odin_ | how about I not use the name meego either | 22:30 |
| thiago_home | do you know why this hasn't been offered yet? | 22:30 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: if you want a real reason why use srpms .. build.meego.com uplink is bloody slow. | 22:30 |
| thiago_home | any technical reason? | 22:30 |
| thiago_home | or just "hasn't happened"? | 22:31 |
| odin_ | I dont want to upload I shall mirror, automatically | 22:31 |
| odin_ | *uplink | 22:31 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: no, but it uploads to you | 22:31 |
| Stskeeps | at whooping 20k/s at times | 22:31 |
| Stskeeps | it gets tiring | 22:31 |
| odin_ | thats ok, I won't be standing waiting around for it | 22:31 |
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| odin_ | as I shall only work with versions that my OBS managed to mirror | 22:32 |
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| thiago_home | Stskeeps: what odin is asking for, is it hard to enable access to? | 22:32 |
| odin_ | but it does allow me to sent patches upstream based on the same SVM revision numbers as MeeGo core, this makes maintenance easier for all | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: we don't use svn revisions in meego submissions | 22:32 |
| odin_ | read-only access to build.meego.com/api.meego.com to get visibility on the SVM side of the input projects/packages of MeeGo Core (so they can be mirrored) | 22:33 |
| Stskeeps | patches are made as diffs, ie, target package differed with origin packages | 22:33 |
| odin_ | osc ls --verbose myProject/myPackage | 22:33 |
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| timeless | moco is driving mozilla in a direction which means dropping support for various platforms | 22:33 |
| timeless | the community doesn't necessarily like this | 22:33 |
| timeless | but the community doesn't have the resources to counter moco | 22:34 |
| timeless | a fork isn't sustainable | 22:34 |
| thiago_home | timeless: mozilla corporation? | 22:34 |
| timeless | (sorry, trian found a network dead spot) | 22:34 |
| timeless | thiago, yes MoCo as opposed to MoFo | 22:34 |
| timeless | s/trian/train/ | 22:34 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: probably not, hence why i ask him to file a openness bug | 22:34 |
| * Cosmo[PB] wishs moco wasn't on his highlight list | 22:35 | |
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| timeless | cosmo: why is it? | 22:35 |
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| thiago_home | odin_: please try asking for that access | 22:35 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: i do worry about resource usage and would propose a limit on mbs-per-day per ip or whatever | 22:35 |
| Stskeeps | as people should for most purposes, mirror daily, or weekly | 22:35 |
| odin_ | heh thats ok I have a class C lols | 22:35 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: like I said, I don't know OBS | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 22:36 |
| thiago_home | but my imagination says it has a bunch of build rules and package manifests, plus the SRPMS | 22:36 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: do consider if binaries list == the name of daily package, to download from a mirror instead though.. | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: er, srpm list | 22:36 |
| thiago_home | the SRPMS can be obtained from repo, which has decent bandwidth | 22:36 |
| odin_ | yes it outputs RPMs and SRPMs from source inputs, stored under Source Control Management | 22:36 |
| thiago_home | why is bandwidth an issue for the OBS then? | 22:36 |
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| Stskeeps | thiago_home: not sure, but it is | 22:37 |
| timeless | i'd assume cpu should be a bigger issue | 22:37 |
| Stskeeps | for daily development i see no reason why people can't access things read-only | 22:37 |
| odin_ | VPN? | 22:37 |
| X-Fade | thiago_home: api fetches are basically svn checkouts. | 22:37 |
| timeless | api?? | 22:37 |
| X-Fade | thiago_home: So there is database overhead iirc. | 22:37 |
| timeless | grr, hg/git, please | 22:37 |
| timeless | svn=bad | 22:37 |
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| thiago_home | timeless: what do you guys use in mozilla nowadays? | 22:38 |
| X-Fade | timeless: osc downloads packages through the obs api. | 22:38 |
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| timeless | hg | 22:38 |
| odin_ | well the exact SCM system is wrapped by the "osc" utility which is/are python script(s) to managing your relationship with the api.meego.com to do stuff (like checkout, commit, build, etc...) | 22:38 |
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| thiago_home | X-Fade: so you're saying that a proper input for an OBS is not the SRPM? | 22:38 |
| timeless | for mozilla firefox and related | 22:39 |
| timeless | webtools can use other things | 22:39 |
| X-Fade | thiago_home: No, there is version control too. | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: you should get a demo sometime.. | 22:39 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: I should find the time for that... | 22:39 |
| odin_ | nope a package, which is a collection of dirs/files, usually with less than 6, as the package itself may well be in *.tar.gz form | 22:39 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: I've been in Nuremberg and didn't get time for that then either. | 22:39 |
| odin_ | so the entire tree of the package, is not in SCM just the *.tar.gz you downloaded from say gnu.org | 22:40 |
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| thiago_home | odin_: what else is there? | 22:40 |
| thiago_home | odin_: patches and the SPEC file? | 22:40 |
| odin_ | yes yes | 22:40 |
| odin_ | anything to make it build and package it up | 22:40 |
| thiago_home | so it's an unpackaged SRPM | 22:40 |
| odin_ | that is unique to that package (i.e. part of that package) | 22:40 |
| odin_ | well I would think you can use an SRPM easily | 22:41 |
| odin_ | you just need to build a project and package configure | 22:41 |
| thiago_home | but from what I understand (from you), it's not as easy | 22:41 |
| timeless | thiago/odii:: minus the sources? | 22:41 |
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| odin_ | but the problem with SRPM you don't get to see what MeeGo core is doing between revisions, you loose that info and the ability to track what is doing on, without needing to guess or ask | 22:41 |
| X-Fade | odin_: Well there is the changlog. | 22:42 |
| thiago_home | odin_: I see | 22:42 |
| X-Fade | But packaging changes are not in there of course. | 22:42 |
| odin_ | where as this info is contained via the SCM inside the OBS server, yes a changelog exists | 22:42 |
| thiago_home | odin_: you do want to see the changes to the patches and the SPEC file | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: know any ruby? | 22:42 |
| odin_ | yes to better maintain a downstream version, reducing the communication costs between me and the maintainer of MeeGo core | 22:42 |
| thiago_home | it sounds all reasonable, if it were not for the bandwidth issue | 22:43 |
| thiago_home | if it doesn't bother you and you don't abuse it, it sounds like a service to be offered | 22:43 |
| Stskeeps | well, i think it can be asked in openness bug if there's a genuine valid concern | 22:43 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, not enough ruby and not enough python :( sh/perl I do grok | 22:43 |
| thiago_home | if BW is an issue, read-only non-anonymous accounts can be given | 22:44 |
| odin_ | I was nto aware of a bandwidth issue until the last few minutes, but that to me sounds like a fixable issue by the power that be | 22:44 |
| X-Fade | Well it is not bandwidth, it is server load to the api server. | 22:44 |
| odin_ | how much load does it have/need, there must be less than 100 committers ? | 22:45 |
| X-Fade | But that should be able to be fixed by loadbalancing or something like that. | 22:45 |
| timeless | x-fade: that should be solvable by replacing vn w/ hg/git | 22:45 |
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| * thiago_home guesses it's not the committers, but the build itself | 22:45 | |
| odin_ | how does build.openSUSE manage ? | 22:45 |
| thiago_home | remember it's building all the time | 22:45 |
| timeless | you're clearly using a tool which doesn't fit the task | 22:45 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: boatload of resources | 22:45 |
| Stskeeps | big donated servers | 22:45 |
| odin_ | well I think of it like this, once I get a copy of the data off OBS I won't need to access it again | 22:46 |
| * thiago_home remembers SUSE had a 64-CPU machine at one point | 22:46 | |
| odin_ | and all my work is then offloaded to my own OBS platform | 22:46 |
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| timeless | stskeeps: intel/nokia are starving? | 22:46 |
| thiago_home | it did the KDE conversion to SVN in 13 hours back in 2005 | 22:46 |
| X-Fade | Anyway, there will be new core obs servers soon. So I guess that issue will go away. | 22:46 |
| odin_ | yes obs-server version 2.1 (with ACL support) :) | 22:46 |
| thiago_home | timeless: nah, I've had dinner :-) | 22:47 |
| timeless | yeah suse seems to have some very shiny systems | 22:47 |
| X-Fade | odin_: no, actual hardware. | 22:47 |
| timeless | thiago: i had mine on the train | 22:47 |
| timeless | but i didn't say starving their devs directly | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | either way, openness bug it is | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | it sounds like a good way ahead | 22:47 |
| odin_ | is this the _SAME_ hardware that was coming soon, back in May 2010 ? and the estimation then was 2 weeks to get something up, which then turned into, everyone waiting for the man at the data centre to do something with it, then turned into no one knew where there servers are, etc.. | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: no, this isn't cbuild | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:48 |
| X-Fade | odin_: No. | 22:48 |
| X-Fade | odin_: You missed the word core in my sentence :) | 22:48 |
| timeless | sadly the pub at the train station while good at making food wasn't very familiar w/ "to do" | 22:48 |
| odin_ | it is holiday season for northern hemisphere folks and we've had the world cup and such, but it almost conference time ! | 22:48 |
| timeless | they didn't initially have takaway drinks | 22:48 |
| timeless | and didn't include utensils or napkins :o | 22:48 |
| timeless | odin: it's a bit late for normal northerners to take summer vacation | 22:49 |
| timeless | i taked mine in the fall to coincide w/ holy days | 22:49 |
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| vgrade | lcuk, my Joggler activities have taken a back seat due to the Nexus Meego port. But I have had a number of requests for updates since the EMGD drivers were pulled from repo.meego and we now have the official EMGD release. Too many projects not enough time. | 22:49 |
| * theopensourcerer is installing Maverick on his netbook with a btrfs filesystem. | 22:50 | |
| theopensourcerer | Opps sorry - wrong window :-( | 22:50 |
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| lcuk | ok vgrade thanks for info | 22:50 |
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| vgrade | lcuk, to provide images for the Joggler is a tricky one | 22:51 |
| lcuk | vgrade, hence me saying it would have to be official | 22:52 |
| vgrade | lcuk, but you can download the EMGD drivers without entering into a EULA | 22:52 |
| vgrade | only when you execute the driver exe | 22:53 |
| lcuk | but that happens after the image is made | 22:53 |
| vgrade | so if we could set up an image download which asked for acceptance of the EULA then we should be in the clear | 22:53 |
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| Stskeeps | talk to a lawyer first | 22:54 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:54 |
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| Stskeeps | still, teaching people to create an image is a valuable lesson | 22:55 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, yeah sure | 22:55 |
| vgrade | Stskeeps, I agree but it is a steep learning curve | 22:56 |
| Stskeeps | it is | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | and it should be less steper | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:58 |
| vgrade | Stskeeps, on the legal front, is not what I proposed exactly what we had to do for a IEGD moblin image download? | 22:58 |
| odin_ | how is mic2 + btrfs doing? is btrfs likely for 1.1 ? | 22:59 |
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| Stskeeps | vgrade: yes, but yours is not the eula to give.. | 23:00 |
| * timeless would hope mic2 has very little direct relation to btrfs | 23:00 | |
| Stskeeps | odin_: another good question | 23:00 |
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| odin_ | timeless, well I think btrfs is hoped for in MeeGo 1.1, but it requires mic2 to create images, but that has a bug/problem, so "mic" is being used instead, so no direct relation | 23:03 |
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| Stskeeps | uhm.. | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | no, mic2 is the image creator of meego, and there's a problem generating btrfs images with it | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | it's used interchangeably with mic | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:05 |
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| odin_ | does "mic" support btrfs as well ? | 23:07 |
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| Stskeeps | mic==mic2==image-creator==the thing formerly known as moblin image creator | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:08 |
| odin_ | sure.. but can btrfs images be created with mic then ? | 23:09 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | now we just use a funky symbol to refer to it | 23:09 |
| TSCHAKeee2 | :P | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: some problems | 23:10 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:10 |
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| auke | supposedly there's a semi-working mic now that does btrfs images | 23:16 |
| auke | hopefully it'll get fixed soon | 23:17 |
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| kyb3R | anyone from Tampere, Finland around? | 23:23 |
| kyb3R | if you want to be part of Tampere MeeGo Network, visit http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1378 | 23:24 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | hey kyb3R | 23:29 |
| Cosmo[PB] | http://wiki.meego.com/Community_Office/Marketing/Local_MeeGo_Networks | 23:29 |
| Cosmo[PB] | would you like it added to that page? | 23:30 |
| kyb3R | sure | 23:30 |
| kyb3R | seems that we will have punch of ppl interested about it | 23:31 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | is it a candidate or confirmed? | 23:33 |
| kyb3R | still a candidate | 23:33 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | what's the name of the place? | 23:34 |
| Cosmo[PB] | okay got it | 23:34 |
| Cosmo[PB] | next question, does S come before or after T? | 23:34 |
| kyb3R | :) | 23:34 |
| * Cosmo[PB] blushes | 23:34 | |
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| CosmoHill | kyb3R: added :) | 23:37 |
| kyb3R | CosmoHill: thanks :) | 23:37 |
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| * CosmoHill feels helpful | 23:42 | |
| kyb3R | a little help sometimes saves the day for both parties :) | 23:44 |
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| Jartza | how extensively d-bs is used on meego? | 23:54 |
| Jartza | d-bus, even | 23:54 |
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| Stskeeps | a lot | 23:57 |
| vgrade | CosmoHill, signed up for Cambridge, just down the road from me | 23:59 |
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