IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2010-08-11

ShadowJK.. and command to go back to realtime/normal00:00
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CosmoHillsome scary stuff on bbc100:39
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CosmoHilltwo crazy forien women run across the motorway (freeway) without success00:40
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aukesounds more like youtube material00:40
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CosmoHillthere happened to be a BBC camera man with the police crew00:41
leinirOther BBC stuff on right now which is scary, but in a much more incredibly nifty and brilliant sort of way: Mongrels ;)00:41
CosmoHillwoman ran into the road and got hit by a lorry00:41
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CosmoHillthen her sister ran into the road and got hit by a car00:42
lbtCosmoHill: isn't that > 6 months old00:43
CosmoHillstill scary00:43
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lbtthis is more scary
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tremnite all, sweet dreams00:46
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CosmoHilllbt: 2 years00:51
CosmoHillit just said00:51
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* allandrick had an entirely productive day at work today.01:03
allandrickdespite not getting anywhere near enough sleep :P01:03
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allandrickHey Cosmo01:03
* allandrick bounces01:03
allandrickWe got IVI UX on my Joggler last night Cos :)01:04
* allandrick thanks vgrade01:04
allandrickshopped for components at lunch today - bu353, obd-II and BT2.0 on their way :-)01:04
allandrickall for less than 55 notes!01:05
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vgradeallandrick, evenning01:06
allandrickg'day mate01:06
allandrickso - question - meego is an amalgamation of a couple of projects, right?01:07
ScottishDuckmaemo and moblin01:07
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allandrickSo hopefully we'll see some of the apps come across in time01:08
allandrickI've found an absolute corker for the OBD-II interface01:09
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ScottishDuckThe SDK has some early releases01:10
ScottishDuckso folk can start porting01:11
vgradecarman looks like is will run ok01:11
allandrickawesome vgrade01:11
allandrickI've ordered a cable ;-)01:11
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vgrade\o/, I've just brought up the netbook UK up on the Joggler01:13
vgradesorry that should have been handset UX :)01:14
allandricklol nice01:14
allandrickmuch different?01:14
vgradejust playing with it now, video later I think01:15
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Andy80hi all01:19
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Andy80I've followed these instructions and I've the MeeGo handled UI up and running... ok.. and now? It's called MeeGo SDK, but... how can I compile something (for example a Qt/C++ application) and run inside the emulator?01:20
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allandrickhi andy01:20
Andy80hi allandrick01:21
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allandrickvgrade: wireless doesn't support wpa01:27
allandrickor doesn't seem to01:27
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allandrickI'm doing it wrong01:28
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allandrickgot the wpa supplicant working01:38
allandrickbut can't get an IP...01:38
allandrickhurm... no DHCPOFFERS received.01:39
* allandrick breaks out wireshark.01:40
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* allandrick digs out a lan cable.01:44
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allandrickmac address is borked.01:46
* allandrick googles.01:46
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* allandrick cheers.01:48
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vgradeallandrick, if you find new ways to do things would you mind adding them to
allandricksure thing01:56
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allandrickat this stage all I've managed to do is configure the lan interface01:56
allandricknot sure it'll survive reboot01:57
vgradeyes, details of how to do that are on that page01:57
allandricknone of the system properties files are there01:57
allandrickquite a bit missing :)01:57
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vgradeyes, people have added things like ntp, ethernet, sound configs, see the wiki for details from other distos which you can use directly or modify01:59
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vgradedid you say you had sound last night?01:59
vgradeor this morning as it was01:59
allandrickI thought I had01:59
allandrickwhen I started navit I heard "Navit"01:59
allandrickbut not this time01:59
allandrickjust hissing this time02:00
allandrickwill try a movie02:00
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allandrickok something wierd02:08
allandrickmodprobe is reporting failure to load /lib/modules/
allandrickyet the modules directory is
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allandricknow screen is corrupting - I guess that's the famous joggler overheating.02:13
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vgradeallandrick, that modules thing needs fixing, I will sort and publish a new .ks file.  The issue is that we have only the kernel bZimage and not the associated modules.02:27
allandrickthat's the video driver thing right02:28
vgradeno the bZImage is the kernel image which includes the DRM graphics river02:29
* allandrick nods02:29
allandrickfinding it difficult to test audio02:29
allandricktotem has no plugins - no mp3, no AC302:29
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vgradeaudio issue may be due to the lack of modules02:29
allandrickcould be.02:29
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vgradelet me see what I can do, do you have IRC at work?02:30
allandricktrying a .wav02:30
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allandrickgenerally not - nor access to the joggler really02:30
allandrickThursday I'm planning to work from home which will be interesting ;-)02:31
allandrickbut I'm also home tomorrow evening02:31
allandrickcan be on just after tea time.02:31
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allandrickin the mean time, if there's anything I can test/do to be useful - I'm happy to oblige.  you have my contact details via the forums if you need them02:34
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pavlixwhere can I find meego package versions (e.g. gstreamer in meego 1.0)02:40
CosmoHillwould you like the long or the short answer?02:40
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CosmoHillshort: you can't02:45
Milhouseis it just me or does meego fail to build on Ubuntu 10.04? Have been trying to build for the joggler but get a ton of "scriptlet failed, signal 4" errors.02:46
Milhouseerrors with both emgd-netbook-3.ks and emgd-netbook-joggler.ks02:47
allandricknight all02:48
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vgradeMillhouse, not had that one02:48
Milhousemust be something i'm missing then02:48
Milhousehave updated syslinux etc. - what a pullava that was02:48
vgradedid you do the check deps thing?02:49
Milhouseyep, all good (apart from the check-deps getting confused by Ubuntu version numbers)02:49
vgradeusing the git version of image-creator02:49
Milhousemy syslinux is 2:3.86 but it still thought it earlier than 3.85 as the check-deps checkpkg function doesn't realise that Ubuntu version numbers are prefixed by another number02:50
vgradethe meego-arm boys swear by a fedora VM to do mic builds02:50
Milhousevgrade: yes - pulled it from git, ran make02:50
infobotCosmoHill meant: s/at/at02:50
Milhouseran check-deps - failed, so updated syslinux on ubuntu 10.04 from a ppa, checkdeps still failed because it's got an ubuntu-specific bug02:51
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Milhousebut all my deps are now good02:51
Milhousehmm.. ok maybe i tell a lie02:52
vgradeCosmoHill :) nice one02:52
Milhousei built mic from git... but may have ran the mic i installed from apt02:52
* Milhouse goes off to re-run git version of mic to see if it makes any difference...02:52
CosmoHillvgrade: it's like working, only out of you and the pc, your the only one working02:52
infobotCosmoHill meant: vgrade: it's like working, only out of you and the pc, you're the only one working02:53
Milhouserunning now, but I can see I'm already getting lots of signal 4 errors. :(02:56
Milhouseanyone know what a signal 4 error might mean?02:56
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* CosmoHill crys when he sees his time table03:05
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MilhouseI've uploaded the output from my emgd-netbook-3.ks build here if anyone would be so kind to take a look! :)
Milhouse(it's not pretty)03:08
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thiago_homeMilhouse: it probably means the application received a signal 4.03:10
thiago_homethat's a SIGILL03:11
Milhousethat much I guess for myself :)03:11
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thiago_homewhich processor do you have?03:11
MilhouseAMD Athlon XP03:11
Milhousedon't tell me this can only be built on pucka Intel?03:11
thiago_homeare you running MeeGo binaries?03:11
Milhouseno - Ubuntu 10.0403:11
thiago_homeso no pre-built binaries downloaded from ?03:11
Milhouseno - pulled MIC from git and built it, now just running m-i-c03:12
thiago_homewhich process got SIGILL?03:12
Milhouseseveral hundred03:12
Milhouse <--- starts at glibc [32/656]. the command I ran is at the top03:13
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vgradeenough space on the drive Millhouse03:14
thiago_homeit's trying to run packages downloaded from repo.meego.com03:14
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Milhouse56% in use03:14
thiago_homethose are optimised for Atom03:14
Milhouseyeah, i'm assuming each of these "scriptlets" is an rpm?03:14
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Milhousesome seem to work ok - others not so much03:15
thiago_homescriptlets is the pre- or post-install script that is run by rpm03:15
Milhousehas anyone built MeeGo on an AMD CPU?03:15
thiago_homeit's probably launching some program, which in turn crashes03:15
chandlerMilhouse: It looks like the signal 4 is from post-package-install steps that are run in the staging area for the image using the installed binaries. The illegal instruction is probably a SSE2/SSE3 instruction.03:15
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chandlerIt's probably not AMD per se that's the issue so much as the age of your processor.03:15
* thiago_home wonders how one builds ARM images03:16
Milhousethat would really, *really* suck if you have to use Intel to build MeeGo03:16
thiago_homeMilhouse: you don't have to use Intel03:16
thiago_homeyou just need a new processor03:16
Milhousehmm maybe - shame as it's ideal for Linux :)03:16
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Milhouseha... i'll have to give that some thought  :)03:16
chandlerthiago_home: qemu, I think03:16
Milhousein the mean time would it be possible for someone to put a little note on the wiki about this dependency?03:17
thiago_homechandler: can qemu emulate instructions your processor doesn't have?03:17
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thiago_homeMilhouse: I'm pretty sure it's there03:17
chandlerI think it can, yes.03:17
Milhousethiago: didn't neotice anything on the build instructions but I could have missed it03:17
chandlerYou can even emulate x86-64 on 32-bit x86... slowly :-)03:17
Milhousechandler: would be great if this could be fixed in software03:17
thiago_homeMilhouse: will probably always require qemu or a processor that has the same featureset03:18
thiago_homeMeeGo Atom builds are optimised for Atom03:18
MilhouseRight but I'm guessing we don't have to build ARM on ARM?03:18
thiago_homeyou require a processor that is at least as good, in terms of CPU feature support03:18
thiago_homeno, you need qemu for ARM03:18
* Milhouse sobs :)03:19
thiago_homerpm pre- and post-install scripts can run anything from the system03:19
thiago_homeand the system is ARM or Atom03:19
thiago_hometherefore, either you have those CPUs, or you emulate them03:19
* CosmoHill gives thiago_home a cookie03:19
MilhousePresumably a VM on Win7 with an i7 CPU would work?03:20
thiago_homei7 has all the features Atom has, plus more03:21
MilhouseIs there a downloadable VM image for MeeGo?03:21
pavlixCosmoHill: and what would be the long answer (about getting package versions)? Maybe just the architecture packages would be ok. Maybe someone could tell me gstreamer version.03:21
vgradeyes, get virtualbox and a fedora VM03:21
CosmoHillbut does the VM have the 3D support required?03:21
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CosmoHillpavlix: the long answer would be that you need to compile it yourself03:21
Milhousevgrade et al: many thanks... will be back when I have a working VM. :)03:21
gabrbeddIf I enable debugging messages for wpa_supplicant (/usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/fi.w1.wpa_supplicant1.service) -- any idea where the messages go??03:21
CosmoHilli think someone else might have already compiled one03:22
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CosmoHillgabrbedd: sorry, only used wireless on RHEL03:22
thiago_homeexcept for MOVBE, but I doubt gcc generates such instruction03:22
CosmoHillMilhouse: you should be able to rename the file from .img to .iso and get virtualbox to load that03:23
vgradeMillhouse, i use the fedora 11 from here
CosmoHillvgrade: i thought virtualbox didn't have the 3D support needed by Meego?03:23
thiago_homeMilhouse: there are downloadable disk images03:23
thiago_homeMilhouse: you should be able to use that as a development environment03:23
Milhousethanks - am downloading now :)03:23
pavlixCosmoHill: just to know package versions? I would not dare to expect debian-packages-like interface, but a short description of the architecture would be fine.03:23
pavlix(I guess the answer is to write it to the wiki myself.)03:24
thiago_homefor running the apps, you must make sure that OpenGL (Netbook) or OpenGL ES (the others) works03:24
Milhousevgrade: would Fedora 13 be an OK option?03:24
CosmoHillpavlix: sorry but I don't understand the question03:24
Milhousethiago: I'll be testing the builds on a Joggler03:24
CosmoHillmaybe compile ffmpeg and vlc yourself?03:25
thiago_homeMilhouse: why don't you just download the pre-built handset image straight onto the Joggler?03:25
Milhouseis it available with emgd - didn't find it03:25
Milhousewas going for the netbook build - tried handset on N900 (not much to see!)03:26
CosmoHillvgrade: did you make the meego GMA500 image that you build public?03:26
CosmoHillif so, could I host a copy of that image?03:27
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: thanks :-/03:27
vgradewhich one, ive done netbook, ivi and handset now on joggler03:28
CosmoHillerm actually03:28
CosmoHillvgrade: joggler03:28
CosmoHillsince that is what Milhouse will want03:28
Milhousedrat, nobody seems to be seeding fedora13 - pulling down F1203:28
CosmoHillgabrbedd: could try in /log ?03:28
Milhousevgrade: have you made your emgd joggler builds available?03:29
Milhousei thought there were "issues"03:29
CosmoHillwhen aren't there issues?03:29
gabrbeddCosmoHill: Yeah... nothing's obvious.  They don't seem to show up in messages, and there is no syslog.03:29
vgradeCosmohill, no i've done ivi ux, netbook ux and handset ux on joggler03:29
gabrbeddCosmoHill: I'm now trying to sniff it out with lsof.03:29
CosmoHillyou migh have to restart the demon once its' been enabeld03:30
CosmoHillvgrade: oh I see03:30
vgradeMillhouse, no images just instructions03:30
CosmoHilli think netbook might be best03:30
Milhouseactually there were two images I donwloaded... a pair of iso's.. never got the login prompt though (got the garbled screen, pressed ALT-F1 but no prompt)03:31
pavlixCosmoHill: my original question was how do I learn package versions found in meego (without touching a meego device or installing meego). I am especially curious about the architecture, namely gstreamer.03:31
Milhousevgrade: you're just taunting me now :)03:31
CosmoHillpavlix: for software versions you could look in the repo03:31
CosmoHillit should list them like package-1.2-1.i686.rpm03:31
vgradeyes, those images were for GMA500 based netbooks, I did not make those03:31
CosmoHillor something like that03:31
CosmoHillvgrade: I bet you filmed that on a N90003:32
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vgradeNexus 103:33
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pavlixCosmoHill: thanks03:33
CosmoHillvgrade: so no public image that people can install onto their own jogglers?03:33
pavlixgabrbedd: thanks very much03:33
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gabrbeddCosmoHill: I'm starting to think they're going to /dev/null.03:35
CosmoHillwell it never runs out of space no matter how much you put in it03:35
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* gabrbedd wonders if `tail -f /dev/null` will work...03:36
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CosmoHillnight night03:43
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gabrbeddConmoHill: Doh!  I should just use the -f option for wpa_supplicant04:16
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darkkraiis meego better than moblin?04:49
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ScottishDuckIt's an evolution of moblin04:54
ScottishDuckBed time04:55
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* gnuyoga is thrilled see a huge fan following for meego (and sick of seeing dead android irc channels ;-) )07:12
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* gnuyoga is looking at fellow release engineers and would like to contribute in that space, any one out here ? 07:30
chriadamgnuyoga: channel's pretty quiet at this time of the day, if you wait a few hours things will get a bit busier in here.07:31
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Stskeepsgnuyoga: #meego can be rather dead at times but #meego-dev , #meego-handset etc are more active. regarding release engineering, ask at for where you can help out07:55
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ChildOfGodI hear that MeeGo will move to Qt. Does that mean the current Clutter based Netbook UX (the panels and the toolbars etc) will be rewritten in Qt?08:42
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gnuyogachriadam, Stskeeps: thanks08:51
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Stskeepsmorning anaZ, slaine11:09
slainemorning Stskeeps anaZ11:09
w00t_morning anaZ, Stskeeps, slaine11:10
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sivanghi all11:16
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fralsuhm, is there a a tag for code snippets on the wiki or what should be used?13:04
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CosmoHillI think someone is DoSing LFS :(13:15
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CosmoHillanyone in her use xchat / xchat aqua?13:21
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odin_yay REGISTRATION time for MeeGo Conference 201014:21
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odin_Special Dietary Restrictions: Internet access with all meals14:22
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odin_it is not clear what the process is in relation to the reserved accommodation, as in I don't mind if I need to find my own but if they need to fill in places then what is the process to put my hand up?14:42
Jaffaodin_: Don't know14:42
Jaffaodin_: See
JaffaWaiting for a reply from Amy or DawnFoster14:44
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thiagois the SDK meeting in #meego-sdk or #meego-meeting?14:45
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odin_should be in #meego-meeting with robot logging/minutes14:46
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odin_maybe need to close and announce the assistance within the next 6 weeks, so allow 2 months for everyone else to sort themselves out14:50
odin_then I guess they know how many rooms/spaces are left over for others to pay their own way at group discount rates14:51
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CosmoHilllcuk: what's your twitter name?14:57
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CosmoHillhush you14:58
* lcuk likes this: RT: my followers seem 2b enthusiastic hackers architects managers geeks engineers + devs who have a #nokia #mobile life!
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Stskeepsmeego sdk toolchain meeting in #meego-meeting15:00
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Andy80I've followed these instructions and I've the MeeGo handled UI up and running... ok.. and now? It's called MeeGo SDK, but... how can I compile something (for example a Qt/C++ application) and run inside the emulator?15:00
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CosmoHilllcuk: I was going to see if I could find out where you are using geotagging15:03
lcukyou could just ask :)15:03
lcukI am in Manchester England15:03
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KhertanHi !15:11
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timeless_mbpthiago: i like to believe that you are15:58
timeless_mbphowever i question group think15:59
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GordonSHey all... is there someplace sane that I can download source for the various Maemo/Meego-related dependencies for Qt Mobility?16:07
GordonSThat is, I'm trying to build on something other than Meego.16:07
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GordonSbut I'm doing Meego development, so I'd ideally like to have all the plug-ins I reasonably can.16:08
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pinheirohey guys :)16:16
pinheiroso design UI wise how does meego work aka were is the team :D me woudl like to share eforts :D16:17
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GAN900pinheiro, good luck.16:18
GAN900I don't think any of them have a public pressence16:18
timeless_mbpis there one such 'team'?16:19
timeless_mbpactually, i think at a base there are arguably at least 5 such 'teams'16:19
timeless_mbpone for each family16:19
timeless_mbp(car, notebook, ...)16:19
timeless_mbp,me isn't sure what those things are called16:19
* timeless_mbp sighs16:19
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pinheirobut how can we work toguether ?16:20
* DuckBoot hands timeless_mbp a /16:20
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timeless_mbpDuckBoot: thanks16:20
pinheirome wants to bring some of comunity voodo here16:20
* DuckBoot hands pinheiro a /16:21
DuckBootHurry up while I still have some left.16:21
pinheiro"/" ?16:21
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pinheirome usualy versed in the irc slang :D16:21
pinheirobut :D16:22
DuckBoot/me too16:22
* w00t_ three16:22
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timeless_mbpmost of my irc clients use ',' as the command char16:23
timeless_mbpwith the exception of this one16:23
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timeless_mbpand i just sat down having been using my other ones… so bad muscle memory bit me16:24
pinheiroso yeah if one was interested in trying to set up/(be part of) a normal open UI design platform in meego land what would be the best course of action?16:25
timeless_mbpshoot yourself in the head?16:25
GAN900pinheiro, email the list, guess.16:25
timeless_mbpor maybe get a nice dose of cyanide?16:25
GAN900pinheiro, I can't say I have much optimism for success, though.16:26
pinheirotimeless_mbp:  :D well im beeond salvation :D16:26
DuckBoottimeless_mbp: There there - forgotten you happy pill today?16:26
GAN900This seems like one area where "open" doesn't actually apply.16:26
pinheiroGAN900:  HOW SO?16:26
w00t_GAN900: i swear, if I meet you one day, I'm going to inject you with happy pills16:26
GordonSpinheiro, CAN900: the first challenge is to get a working/recent development and test environment :-S16:27
GAN900w00t_, that would've been about a year ago.16:28
pinheiroGordonS:  weell i been doing this for some years now and that is not as vital from a designers POV as you might think16:28
GordonSokay, fair enough :)16:28
pinheirome usualy works on stuf that will be real in 1 yaers time, its mostly a matter of good comunicaton with developers and basacly undrstanding the language16:29
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pinheiromore important and complicated is usualy to get all the designers to sepeak the same language, ence me beeing here  :D16:31
timeless_mbpDuckBoot: i made the mistake of supporting a friend's computer16:31
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timeless_mbpwhich involved trying to back it up and then installing a fresh os16:31
timeless_mbpunfortunately i failed to save the email account info and passwords16:31
timeless_mbpso i managed to get almost everything working16:31
timeless_mbpincluding 1/2 of his mailboxes16:32
timeless_mbpbut he's now complaining that i lost one of his mailboxes :(~16:32
timeless_mbphelping people is a bad idea16:32
DuckBoottimeless_mbp: Ouch - That's the reason I wear my t-shirt with the text "NO - I will NOT fix your computer"16:32
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w00t_do it my way, lose both their mailboxes16:33
timeless_mbpi need one of those16:33
w00t_they'll never ask you again16:33
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CosmoHillanyone know of a easy to use PXE boot server?16:34
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CosmoHillhehe, unisex frustration16:34
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_daniel_is here any Masayuki Ohtak :D16:36
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Bluewindhey guys I bootet meego on the n900 but the screen is very dark (read nearly black) hints?16:41
StskeepsBluewind: start flasher, hold down power key, immediately at same time turn up light16:41
BluewindI have to shutdown before right?16:42
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_daniel_hey guys16:45
danielwilmsBluewind: or follow step 9) from
_daniel_what is the cheapest device that runs meego :P16:45
Bluewinddanielwilms: thx16:46
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th3hateStskeeps, latest meego image has hw accel?16:48
GAN900_daniel_, an Atom board?16:48
Stskeepsth3hate: always had16:49
Stskeepsth3hate: but no updated gfx driver yet16:49
odin_goes the kernel have the feature to detect the CPUID on IA32, sure "cat /proc/cpuinfo" and write a script16:49
th3hateyou'll update em in next release?16:49
thiagoodin_: the kernel detects features, definitely16:49
_daniel_GAN900: don't know :P16:49
thiagothe question is whether the kernel has a feature to abort loading if it doesn't detect a feature16:50
odin_that is not a kernel feature but a dynamic-linker feature16:50
lbt_daniel_: O2 Joggler probably16:50
_daniel_GAN900: meego is pretty interesting stuff and I wanted to know how much should I spent in order to start playing with it16:50
odin_its not that useful for aborting the kernel running from the kernel itself, that would then be the bootloaders responsibility to check such things16:50
pinheiroso any talk about the design side of things at the meego conference?16:50
th3hateis it possible to partition mmc and put meego + nitdroid on each partition?16:50
thiagodynamic linker for refusing to load apps, yes16:50
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odin_this is more a QA and Support improvement anyhow16:51
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odin_again to reiterate there is no objection with the goal to provide optimized code for the best experience, this is a worthy goal, some thought towards inter-operability with desktop linux is what is missing16:52
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thiagoodin_: it just happens that this is an x86 processor16:57
thiagodo you install ARM or MIPS binaries on your desktop Linux?16:57
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odin_to actually use, nope.. the last MIPS I has was an SGI Indy some 8 to 10 years ago16:58
smokuHow do I apply for access to Community OBS?16:58
sivangso, I checked the bios, there was no options to disable or enable VT, and in VirtualBox it is reported to be working.16:58
sivangstill I get 'kvm: disabled by bios'16:58
sivanganybody have an idea? (this is when trying to follow this:
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odin_did you power off your PC after changing the BIOS ?17:00
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smokusivang, are you sure your mobo supports virtualization?17:01
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lbtsmoku: ask me.... but we're transitioning at the moment so no strong need for more beta testers... unless you're an OBS expert and can spare a chunk of time/commitment?17:01
thiagoodin_: my point is: you shouldn't be installing those binaries to your desktop Linux17:01
smokulbt: i would like to start packaging hildon (and fremantle ui) for meego17:02
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lbtsmoku: good enough17:02
smokulbt: carsten suggested I should use community OBS17:02
lbtsee /msg17:03
odin_thiago, well binaries that should be kept seperate really should use unique dynamic-linker paths, then there really would be no confusion, i..e. objdump -j .interp -s /bin/ls17:03
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odin_thiago, such as /lib/  nothing wrong with that17:03
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thiagoodin_: there's no need to have a separate loader for each arch17:04
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thiagobut I agree that the binary should encode the arch features it used17:05
odin_thiago, need ?  its not a question of need, but interoperability clarity17:05
thiagono, it's not17:05
thiagoyou don't need a different interpreter17:05
odin_thiago, there is also no need to call it /lib/
thiagoyou need something like "file" or readelf that can tell you what features are needed17:05
odin_thiago, correct, its just a symlink but the point is system which do not support that ABI and distro won't have that path, do the binary will never load17:05
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thiagoyeah, and then you get the infamous: /bin/ls: No such file or directory17:06
thiagoerror, yet the file exists17:06
thiagono, the interpreter must be a known constant for everyone17:06
odin_thiago, the interoperability goal would be to not have a binary that should not be running on the runtime system executing in the first place17:06
thiagoarch-specific, surely17:06
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thiagoyour /lib/ can detect the use of SSSE3 instructions and refuse to load17:07
thiagothe same way that it refuses to load ARM binaries17:07
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odin_thiago, yes that would work too, but would not be compatible and interoperate with the intended consequence on other linux systems17:08
thiagoI don't see your point17:08
thiagowhat is the intended consequence?17:08
odin_the interoperability goal would be to not have a binary that should not be running on the runtime system executing in the first place17:08
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thiagoan SSSE3-using binary will not run on a Pentium III, period17:08
thiagoif the ELF header contains a note "this requires ssse3", the loader won't load it17:09
odin_well 99.9% would until it might hit code that did SSSE317:09
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CosmoHillfeck yeah \o/17:09
* CosmoHill dances around17:09
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odin_what is the note in the ELF header you speak of ?  this is a proposed solution that I indicated to GCC list, so sure you are quoting my own solution back at me now in your argument ?17:10
thiagothis is used in both ARM and IA-6417:12
* thiago will find the Intel document that describes it for IA-6417:12
odin_the point about that solution is it would address current and future advances, but will take a few years to integrate (since thats the turn around time)17:12
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odin_IA-64 is actually Itanium17:12
thiagoI know17:13
* thiago thinks the Intel engineers working on Itanium had too much time on their hands17:13
* mikeleib wonders why CosmoHill dances17:13
CosmoHillmikeleib: I booted grub2 over PXE17:13
mikeleiba hacky challenge worthy of a boogy17:13
TSCHAKeeethiago: itanium was literally design by committee gone way way way way way amok17:13
CosmoHillmikeleib: this is a milestone for me17:14
CosmoHillsince I will now use this on my cluster17:14
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thiagoTSCHAKeee: it's got the best assembly17:14
TSCHAKeeefusing tech by several companies over almost a 15 year period is bound to cause some weird things17:14
odin_yes design by committee can be a problem with corporatism17:14
* CosmoHill would like some IA-64 stuff to play around with17:15
TSCHAKeeethiago: i agree, the native 64-bit code is fantastic.. it's the ia-32 emulation that reaaaaaaallly blows on it.17:15
thiagoodin_: section 4.2.417:15
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thiagoTSCHAKeee: I thought the IA-32 emulation was removed from the chip in the latest Itanium chips17:15
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TSCHAKeeereally? wow. okay :)17:16
TSCHAKeeei hadn't dealt with itanium since 2005.17:16
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odin_thanks for the ABI link, but this obviously doesn't deal with IA-3217:17
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thiagoodin_: ARM equivalent: section 4.4.617:18
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thiagoodin_: e.g., diff between the assembly generated by arm-none-linux-gnueabi with and without -mfloat-abi=softfp: +       .eabi_attribute 27, 317:21
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thiagobetween -mfloat-abi=softfp and -mfloat-abi=hard: +       .eabi_attribute 28, 117:21
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Pforceso where should i ask help for qemu not showing ui on meego handheld sdk17:26
Pforcei see the troubleshooting has this, and solution is unknown17:26
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Pforcei have all the demands met that this page gives me17:26
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Pforcebut this OpenGL renderer string: GeForce GTS 250/PCI/SSE217:27
Pforceseems good output for that should be MESA DRI... something17:27
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odin_thiago, I think you/someone hinted the ARM ABI changes the way floating data is passed across call boundaries, like calling "pow()" in libm ?  I'm sure its in the PDF which I have saved for later when I experiment17:28
* CosmoHill stops working and starts writing17:28
thiagoI don't think it's this PDF17:28
thiagosearch for "ARM ABI" and look at the other PDFs17:29
odin_thiago, the issue with "/bin/ls: No such file or directory" could be addresses with a "fall-back interpreter" this would be a /proc/sys/* in the kernel, which if the ELF .interp is not found on the system but the path of the global kernel variable is found, it would be loaded17:29
mikeleibrather arm thumb procedure call standard17:30
mikeleibatpcs, I mean17:30
thiagodirect PDF:
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odin_thiago, this way the fallback interpretor can be compiled to be most compatible, like with arm1 or arm5 and will diagnose the problem providing a more meaningful error, by comparing runtime platform installed against the binary requirements17:31
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thiagosection 5.5 explains how to pass parameters17:32
thiagofloat-abi=soft or float-abi=softfp are exactly those17:32
thiagofloat-abi=hard is 5.5 plus 617:32
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GordonSanyone have any idea what I might need to install to get the "sensors" module of Mobility built?  Just installing "sensorsd" doesn't seem to do it.17:33
thiagomikeleib: AAPCS17:34
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* mikeleib notes17:36
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thiagoat least we got pass-in-registers by default on x86-6417:37
thiagobut we should have used registers in an order that is at least easy to remember17:37
GordonS"if you're doing assembly, you should just know!"  :-P17:39
thiagoARM: r0, r1, r2, r317:39
thiagoIA-64: out0, out1, out2, out3, ..., out717:39
thiagox86-64: rdi, rsi, rdx, rcx, r8, r917:39
GordonStrue enough, ARM assembler just made sense to me17:40
GordonSbut x86 is just... er.17:40
TSCHAKeeewe got our compatibility with x86-6417:40
GordonSnot looked at x86-64 yet.17:40
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TSCHAKeeebut fucking hell, at the cost of decades of legacy bullshit17:40
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thiagoif the older registers had been renamed according to their encoding in instructions, the order would be:17:40
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GordonS"a 64-bit rework of a 32-bit upgrade of a 16-bit processor modeled after..."17:41
thiagor7, r6, r3, r2, r8, r917:41
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thiagowhy couldn't we use rax (r0), rbx (r1), rcx (r2), rdx (r3) at least?17:42
thiagomove the base pointer from rbx to rsi (r6) or rdi (r7)17:42
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sivangsmoku: how does one makes sure?17:44
thiagoGordonS: yesterday, I was posting to the internal ML about the consequence of writing the code:17:44
odin_I don't think all operations are supported with all registers, rdi, rsi, rbp, rsp can all work with every offset based instruction permutation17:44
thiagoQString &s = someString().append("foo"); s.append("bar");17:44
thiagoodin_: you can do everything with any register on x86-6417:45
thiagoGordonS: I was going to post assembly, but the x86 one was too complex to read17:45
GordonSthiago: to be fair, append() is one of the more confusing bits of QString17:45
thiagoGordonS: the ARM one was very clear, but actually IA-64 won17:45
sivangodin_: there was nothing in the BIOS to change, so I just did a cold reboot17:45
thiagolet me pastebin them17:45
GordonSthis is where I like the Ruby convention of "append" versus "append!"17:45
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odin_sivang, if there is nothing in the BIOS, are your sure you have a VT capable CPU? can you "cat /proc/cpuinfo" into a pastebin for another to see ?17:46
sivangodin_: of course, I take it VirutalBox's reporting is not something to rely on?17:46
odin_sivang, I don't know much about VirtualBox specifically only VMWare and Xen, I hear VB is good17:47
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* lcuk still equates VB to mean something else17:47
GordonSI've had good luck with VirtualBox17:47
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GordonSbut it is *awful* to run Meego in :-S17:48
odin_sivang, well the point about reporting is that if it has been disabled in BIOS you will not see it, since once turned off (which is the default for all BIOS have have had), it requires a BIOS change and save, and often a cold reset to see it17:48
GordonSVMware is slow, but at least marginally usable17:48
GordonSbecause of the 3-D acceleration17:48
GordonSat least that is my best guess17:48
Ford_PrefectAnyone know why I'd see a "no space left on device" about 10 MB into writing the image for the N900 onto a microSD card?17:48
thiagoGordonS: which one is more readable?17:48
smokusivang, mobo manual I guess17:49
GordonSthiago: well, I know squat about IA-64 assembly...17:49
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thiagoit should be readable17:49
thiagoespecially because I compiled with -mno-pic and -mregister-names17:49
GordonSbut, I would really have to say ARM17:50
thiago(the other two aren't PIC, so it was only fair)17:50
GordonSthough I can kinda read the x86, after working with DJGPP for so long17:50
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Ford_Prefect(this is an 8 GB card, so space should not be a problem)17:50
thiagothe fact that the compiler inserted those ;; makes the code sequence even more readable17:50
thiagothe compiler inserted nops and instruction templates though, which aren't necessary for the code flow, so I removed them17:51
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* thiago finds it nice that the x86 gcc managed to save the address of the QString temporary in a register, but the ARM and IA-64 gccs didn't17:52
thiagowait, the ARM one did (r4)17:53
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thiagoI still get confused sometimes by the src, dst convention of the AT&T syntax17:55
thiagohmm... how will that syntax do the new AVX (3- and 4-operand) instructions?17:55
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odin_sivang, according to Wikipedia X86_virtualization, you need a Core 2 Quad Q8400 or better for Intel VT-x support, search google for "intel cpu finder Q8300" to see the support18:00
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odin_intel have a habbit or doing that, knocking a few features off the lower end chips in the same series, most annoying when you want to understand it in terms of slow to faster for the Q8x00 series18:02
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odin_another thing or course, is check your BIOS doesn't have an update, i.e. the stepping you have might have support but your BIOS being released before it does not know about it or something like that18:03
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odin_borderline, take top hit for "intel cpu finder q8300" and then click left side "Ordering / S Specs / Steppings" and you can see some one SPEC Code does and one SPEC Code does not18:10
sivangodin_: ah okay, bad, does the sdk run on AMD?18:10
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odin_sivang, sorry don't know, all Intel here, but with AMD GPUs18:11
sivangodin_: ok, thanks.18:12
sivangI guess virtual box does something else or does nto support GL for that matter on this setup18:13
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smyows850Mhz is safe overclock to n900?18:30
Phazorxany of you guys happened to know where can i get dmidecode compatible with meego?18:31
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abhijeethi guys18:58
abhijeeti want to run the meego img using the qemu on opensuse18:58
abhijeetthere is no qemu-gl available on open suse...18:58
abhijeetcan anyone tell me how can run the qemu emulation on opensuse18:58
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abhijeetthere is only qemu package present at the opensuse repository and it is not working18:59
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pavlixabhijeet: I'm a meego newbie, but I guess only modified qemu works for meego19:04
abhijeetpavlix, have u tried this on opensuse19:05
w00t_ looks relevant19:05
pavlixabhijeet: it should be the same just anywhere19:07
w00t_well, no19:07
pavlixw00t_: the wiki search gives about 5-6 likely relevant pages, it's a total mess19:08
abhijeetw00t_, that's difficult process :(19:08
w00t_looking at that, it implies that qemu (and other bits) need to be patched19:08
w00t_pavlix: it's new, so yes, it's going to be a bit turbulent right now19:08
w00t_pavlix: might be worth mailing -dev to talk about how to structure it better though19:08
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pavlixw00t_: it was always hard for me to follow mailing lists :)19:09
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w00t_pavlix: my advice: get a mail client that supports killing threads19:09
GordonSDoes anyone have any idea why libmeegotouch's configure script keeps finding /usr/include/qt4 instead of the include path from qmake or QTDIR?19:09
w00t_anything that doesn't interest you, kill it, and you don't see it again unless you search for it ;)19:10
pavlixw00t_: thanks, I'll try19:10
GordonS"which qmake" returns /opt/qt/4.8.0/bin/qmake as it should19:10
GordonSand QTDIR is /opt/qt/4.8.019:10
abhijeetw00t_, wow... i ran the meego handset version using xephyrn and it worked on my ati drivers.19:10
abhijeetw00t_, but it looks so huge..19:10
w00t_abhijeet: huge how?19:10
abhijeetw00t_, 9" * 5 "19:11
pavlixabhijeet: I was going to try qemu too, but then I got a meego netbook for development19:11
abhijeetpavlix,  which os are u runing19:12
abhijeetw00t_, " means inch19:12
w00t_abhijeet: heh :) cool19:12
abhijeetw00t_, is that correct size of the windows?19:12
w00t_abhijeet: it works on resolution, so probably, yes19:12
abhijeetw00t_, ok...19:13
w00t_abhijeet: should be 8xx x 4xx pixels iirc (I forget the exact number)19:13
GordonSthis is driving me nuts, I can only build the thing by manually modifying a bunch of Makefiles19:13
pavlixabhijeet: Fedora for most of my other testing, meego on the dev netbook for meego development, some Debian and CentOS servers, OpenWRT on router :) is this an answer to your question?19:13
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w00t_GordonS: I guess take a look at what their configure is running..19:13
GordonSthat's what I'm doing, it's just a slow process :-P19:14
abhijeetpavlix, then i think do not have any issue running meego19:14
abhijeetpavlix, on suse qemu-gl is missing and i have to build it run it in qemu..19:14
pavlixabhijeet: I haven't tried on any other than the netbook with complete meego system... on Fedora, I would most probably have to either emulate, or at least use chroot+xephyr (haven't tried, yet)19:15
abhijeetpavlix, ok19:15
pavlixabhijeet: I don't have qemu-gl on Fedora either19:16
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abhijeetbut it is mentioned at the meego wiki19:16
abhijeetpavlix, check this:
pavlixabhijeet: it's downloadable directly from meego19:16
w00t_qemu-gl isn't part of qemu19:16
pavlixw00t_: is it going to be?19:17
w00t_from what I can gather from searching, it was a patch to qemu from some years ago implementing gl, which it looks like meego have picked up on and improved(?)19:17
w00t_i don't know any of this for sure, just what i've come across from searching19:17
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lbtw00t_: can you help me do irc clever stuff in #obs19:17
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pavlixah, well, it seems one can directly install downloaded rpms with yum with dependencies19:20
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aaqcan i ask a question?19:21
aaqor are you all angry internet web people?19:22
CosmoHilloh wait my bot isn't in here19:22
CosmoHillI'm not19:22
leinirINTERNIET RAEG!!!111eleventy ;)19:22
CosmoHillinfact I'm very happy wit what I've done today19:22
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aaqcan i instal from "inside" live cd?19:23
kkris1is there a workaround to get meego running on a nvidia chip?19:23
Ford_PrefectMore N900 questions - (a) why might the backlight not work and (b) how do I reboot? :)19:24
CosmoHillaaq: on the meego live image I've found that init 3 is command line, init 4 is the installer and init 5 is the gui / liveimg19:24
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CosmoHillkkris1: on the forums there is a post about using the meego SDK on an nvidia computer19:25
kkrisok, will have look19:25
aaqso i cant instal when i am using live cd like ubuntu and others?19:25
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Ford_PrefectAnswer to (b) was "pull out the battery" \o/19:28
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pavlixaaq: if cosmohill is correct, it's as easy as rebooting into installation (or changing the runlevel, which is not that different)19:29
aaqwell i can only run it from live cd when i trying to instal it just hangs.19:30
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CosmoHillaaq: what processor do you have?19:31
GordonSkkris: pretty please post that link when you get there??19:31
CosmoHilloh wait, you can boot the liveimg but not the installer?19:32
kkrisi can get x running, but not the meego interface19:32
CosmoHillkkris: same19:32
kkriswith the normal installimage19:32
aaqa old ee pc19:32
CosmoHillaaq: does it have an intel atom processor?19:33
aaqhope so19:33
CosmoHillcat /proc/cpuinfo | grep ssse319:33
aaqthink its not supported19:33
CosmoHillif it returns nothing then meego doesn't support your device19:34
pavlixCosmoHill: when you're at it... is it at all possible to run meego on a non-ssse3 device?19:34
aaqasus ee701.. its not listed in site19:34
CosmoHillyes and no19:35
CosmoHillI've got meego running twm on a pentium 419:35
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CosmoHillthings like yum and zypper don't run as they require ssse319:35
Andy80a very simple question: I'm "inside" MeeGo SDK with ssh, I've successfully compiled a Qt/C++ application. the MeeGo UI is up and running. If I try to start the application I get: cannot connect to X server. How do I have to start it?19:35
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aaqam i stupid to think it wil work when it is running from live cd?19:36
w00t_Andy80: how did you launch xephyr?19:36
CosmoHillAndy80: check your DISPLAY variable19:36
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w00t_(good to see you're making progress btw)19:36
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pavlixaaq: you are probably not stupid19:36
CosmoHillaaq: do you have the GUI and everything?19:36
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pavlixCosmoHill: erm... upstream yum doesn't need ssse3 at all19:36
Andy80w00t_: I'm running SDK using QEMU not Xephyr19:36
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CosmoHillpavlix: it needs something my pentium processor doesn't support19:37
w00t_Andy80: ah, right :P forgot.. in that case I don't know the exact solution, but you'll probably need to export DISPLAY=:something, where something is the number X is on19:37
Andy80let's try export DISPLAY=:219:37
pavlixCosmoHill: a recompile wouldn't fix it?19:37
Andy80mmm.. not19:38
CosmoHillaaq: I can run the installer but not the liveimg19:38
CosmoHillpavlix: sort of19:38
w00t_Andy80: are you ssh'd in btw?19:38
w00t_(to the SDK)19:38
CosmoHillyes it would fix it but I'd really need to recompile the whole of meego for pentium419:38
CosmoHillAndy80: if you are ssh'd in, did you enable X11 forwarding?19:39
Andy80w00t_: yes... I'm into the ssh session19:39
pavlixCosmoHill: after complete recompilation, everything should work, right?19:39
w00t_Andy80: try :019:39
CosmoHillin theory19:39
Andy80w00t_, CosmoHill: I try to start my app from inside the ssh session, of course: meego@[meego-handset-sdk]::~/lastgo_meego/LastGo$ ./LastGo19:40
Andy80not from my linux machine..19:40
w00t_Andy80: yes, I know19:40
w00t_Andy80: try :019:40
pavlixCosmoHill: thanks, this was almost the answer I wanted to get ;)19:40
CosmoHillpavlix: I want to give it a go some time19:40
Andy80w00t_: :0 is the way!!!! :D the only problem... starting my application result in a black screen only :\ no error at all... :(19:41
w00t_Andy80: kill mdecorator19:41
w00t_if that still has problems, kill mcompositor19:41
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pavlixCosmoHill: me too, but now there's rather time for paid work :D19:41
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Andy80w00t_: mmm... killing mdecorator result in MeeGo UI not responding anymore...19:42
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w00t_Andy80: try mcompositor (and yes, it will cause problems to use the UI normally, since you're killing bits of it - problem is, those bits also cause problems with normal Qt apps atm)19:43
Andy80w00t_: ah ok... it reponds now, but the problem is still there. I'll try to kill the other process too, wait...19:43
Andy80w00t_: what you mean with "normal Qt apps" ? Qt is Qt :P I re-compiled the application and I expect it to run without any change ;)19:44
w00t_Andy80: libmeegotouch apps are not normal Qt apps :-)19:44
Andy80w00t_: btw.... killing mcompositor makes the UI to restart.... so I get the same black screen launching my app19:45
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CosmoHillpavlix: right about now I should be chilling out as much as possible before my final year19:45
w00t_Stskeeps: ^^^ have you had to get around this yet? I guess there's something autostarting stuff19:45
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CosmoHillinstead I've been told there are many problems with the uni cluster so they want mine to be finished soon19:46
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pavlixCosmoHill: nice19:47
Andy80w00t_: anyway.... if you're telling me that MeeGo applications have to use libmeegotouch explicitly... since it's not part of Nokia SDK I suppose it's a bit premature trying to port my application to MeeGo...19:47
w00t_they don't19:47
w00t_you under no circumstances _have_ to use it19:47
* CosmoHill shakes fist at Windows 2008 and it;'s ability to BSOD on an incorrect BIOS clock19:48
w00t_it is just there if you want to (for whatever reason)19:48
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* w00t_ mails to meego-dev about it19:50
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aaqit just hangs on installing bootloader19:54
_BuBUanother device added to the list of MeeGO supported device (with GMA500):
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pavlixI was too curious... I'm trying the qemugl thing19:57
pavlixbut I ended up with black screen with blinking cursor19:58
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pavlixor, more exactly it's after some time with white screen19:59
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aaqwhen can i install meego on my nexus?20:04
thiagodo you have a flasher tool for that device?20:05
TSCHAKeeeppl aren't quite grasping the concept of closed hardware...20:06
GordonSTSCHAKeee: there is no such thing, only hardware you haven't figured out how to open yet :-P20:07
GordonS(yes, I know what you mean)  :)20:07
TSCHAKeeespoken like a man with a crowbar20:07
thiago"there's no such thing as A. There's only stuff that's not !A."20:08
GordonSor a shaped charge :)20:08
GordonSindeed... and it is usually impossible to prove the *non*-existence of something >:->20:08
* thiago found the Aavas pretty closed20:08
thiagoI bricked two of them20:08
GordonSgaah, don't tell me that... that's one of our primary dev platforms >:S20:09
thiagoI'm missing a flasher tool for it20:09
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thiagoAug 11 19:10:52 lothlorien kernel: usb 2-5: New USB device found, idVendor=8086, idProduct=e00320:11
* TSCHAKeee has a CDK on pre-order.. thanks for scaring me20:11
thiagoAug 11 19:10:52 lothlorien kernel: usb 2-5: Product: MOORESTOWN20:11
TSCHAKeee:P :)20:11
TSCHAKeeeopenmoko allll over again20:11
csdthat reminds of a question I had: will Meego support/request/require any sort of bootloader, or will that be a HW supplier decision?20:12
TSCHAKeeethat's a vendor thing20:12
thiagoit might be that one of the aavas isn't bricked, but the batteries are just drained20:12
Phazorxsilly question20:13
dm8tbrthiago: I thought they had a bootloader that gives you a cdc-acm console?20:13
Phazorxhow do i switch consoles in meego?20:13
thiagodm8tbr: they do20:13
Phazorxi mean what would nowrmaly work with alt+F1 ... F820:13
CosmoHillPhazorx: alt + F# for command line20:13
thiagodm8tbr: but not if you put it in recovery mode20:13
CosmoHillctrl + alt + F# with X running20:13
thiagodm8tbr: that's what I did, now I can't get it out of that20:13
dm8tbrthiago: how unfortunate20:13
PhazorxCosmoHill: thanks20:14
thiagothe other device died while I was transmitting stuff to it via USB20:14
csdTSCHAKeee: thanks. so that means that upgrading/reinstalling will also be a vendor thing? Does the UX have an "upgrade" something or other and then the vendor plugs in below it, or will even the UI aspect be up to vendors?20:14
thiagoit opens a console on ttyACM0 and a generic on ttyACM120:14
thiagodd'ed from the second to the flash20:14
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GordonSDoes anyone have any idea why libmeegotouch's configure script keeps finding /usr/include/qt4 instead of the include path from qmake or QTDIR?20:15
TSCHAKeeecsd: there are reference pieces for all the parts you describe above, but as is reality, vendors can replace these at will...and most likely...will.20:15
thiagoGordonS: QTDIR isn't used by anything20:15
GordonSsure, but I'm doing it as a super-double-extra-just-in-case, since nothing else has worked...20:16
GordonSI've even tried renaming the system's qmake and qmake-qt420:16
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GordonSand regardless, the Makefiles for corelib, extensions, views, and settings reference /usr/include/qt420:16
thiagoGordonS: it does use QTDIR...20:17
GordonSsure, but:20:17
GordonSwhich qmake -> /opt/qt/4.8.0/bin/qmake20:17
GordonSecho $QTDIR -> /opt/qt/4.8.020:17
thiagois that a pristine build?20:17
GordonSeven tried an out-of-source build20:17
thiagogit clean -f -d -x20:18
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GordonStrying again...20:19
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GordonShmm, suppose I should check Qt itself...20:19
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GordonSI've seen *that* happen before too20:19
GordonSQt itself is clean :)20:20
GordonSno dice, still references /usr/include/qt420:20
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pavlixis it possible to use qemugl without kvm?20:21
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GordonShmm, that's worrisome: "pkg-config --exists QtDBus"20:21
GordonSin configure20:21
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w00t_that is purely for testing for dependencies, iirc20:22
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csdTSCHAKeee: thanks20:25
GordonSeven doesn't work with PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/opt/qt/4.8.0/lib/pkgconfig20:25
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TSCHAKeeeyikes, handset ux takes longer to boot up than fremantle...20:31
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* GordonS is confused as hell20:31
timeless_mbpTSCHAKeee: wait a second20:32
timeless_mbpsomething that is not optimized takes longer than a shipping product?20:32
timeless_mbpthat's unbelievable!20:32
timeless_mbphow dare someone make an initial public release without first making it the fastest product in the world?!20:32
TSCHAKeeedoes maemo do fast init tricks like swapping in a frozen ram image20:33
timeless_mbpnot that trick20:33
timeless_mbpmyself and a colleague suspect that it wouldn't really help much20:34
w00t_probably depends where it's swapped to as well20:34
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GordonSAHA!  Gotcha!20:36
timeless_mbpwell, the big risk w/ hibernation is that the data isn't in sync20:36
timeless_mbpif it's out of sync, you're in trouble :)20:36
GordonSpkg-config --cflags contextsubscriber-1.0   ->   -DQT_SHARED -I/usr/local/include/contextsubscriber -I/usr/include/qt4 -I/usr/include/qt4/QtDBus -I/usr/include/qt4/QtXml -I/usr/include/qt4/QtCore20:36
GordonSratchin' frickin' @%*#@%!20:36
GordonSokay, so I'm out-obscured on qmake now.  Is there any way to override what PKGCONFIG does?20:39
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qgilStskeeps: ping20:42
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Stskeepsqgil: pong20:43
qgilref MeeGo slow in the N900, did someone say that it is currently compiled for ARMv5 and it will be much faster when a bug impeding compilation for ARMv7 is fixed?20:44
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Stskeepsqgil: there's multiple factors: armv7 helps a long way, the other we are investigating what goes on with with bootchart and such20:45
Stskeepsqgil: as well as updating the graphics drivers20:45
qgilyou (or someone) might want to explain about this somewhere, since it is the first reaction of people using the image or watching the video20:45
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qgil... or invest the time fixing these problems and show another video with MeeGo running faster in the N900  ;)20:46
Stskeepsqgil: agreed - got any suggestions on where to engage those people?20:46
qgilyour blog with a meego tag aggregated to  :)20:47
Stskeepsi guess we could make a team blog for this purpose20:47
qgilgood guess20:47
Stskeepsi'll talk to harri about this tomorrow20:47
* Jaffa 'll put it in MWKN too if you embed the YouTube video :)20:47
qgilalso, anybody interested in multi boot for N900:
JaffaCos then it can act as both20:48
qgilcheck/vote  :)20:48
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Stskeepsqgil: there actually exists a community solution for the multiboot problem. right now we do flasher 'load' as it doesn't damage maemo520:49
JaffaI thought multiboot for N900 was done?20:49
Stskeepsqgil: i'll comment on the various solutions available tomorrow20:49
JaffaAh, right.20:49
qgilat least not visible in the documentation available20:49
JaffaI knew it whad been inthe last issue of MWKN :)20:49
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Stskeepsqgil: we're a bit vary of replacing kernel from maemo as it might mean people are unable to make calls and such so that was why we stuck to the "you can multiboot with a pc nearby"20:51
qgilsure, I file the enhancement request and then you come up with the best solution(s) at any point of time20:51
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qgilJaffa: I'm a potential MeeGo tester, I don't find info to enable multi boot in the docs, nor in that mwkn url20:52
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Stskeepsqgil: our usual guide is multiboot though, doesn't harm maemo520:53
qgilIf it exists and it's only a problem of lack of / unclear documentation, then great20:54
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qgilI can only say that I went through the process of installing MeeGo and I found that I wouldn't have done it if I would not have a spare N90020:55
Stskeepsany feedback is welcome :)20:55
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lcukpatches and thoughts on improving performance even more welcome ;)20:57
lcukStskeeps, if there was a way to just lower that screen resolution just a touch - enough to barely be noticable but to shave off 20% of the pixels it would give a boost.  640*480 is 4/5 the screen size and saves you 20% of the render time ..20:59
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lcukand working out how to operate in alternative resolutions *WILL* be needed when you get other devices onboard20:59
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Stskeepslcuk: libmeegotouch already runs in alternative resolutions21:00
Stskeepscheck devices.conf sometime21:01
lcuksure, but when I asked about this previously (wrt running on alternative Nokia handsets and the like) it was told the apps were designed at a fixed res21:01
Stskeepsqt should be more suitable for that, i guess21:01
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lcukI know design layouts can be stretched that 20% easily without effecting visuals drastically - I know from 8x0 days that it would boost maximum frame rate then from ~25fps @ 800 to 33fps @640 .21:03
lcukbefore changing drivers though, just alter the devices.conf to set it to 640 (it will render with a black bar I assume) but should be faster21:04
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lcukqgil, i relaly like your twittersheep thing btw :D  went looking at loads of them21:04
lcukyours is so varied with all the followers you have!21:05
kkrisare there any plans to support nvidia chips in the future?21:05
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qgilkkris: you need to ask NVidia whether they will open driver or provide support themselves - that or a vendor shipping MeeGo devices with Nvidia inside21:10
Stskeepscool - , meego netbook ux on archos 9 tablet21:11
w00t_Stskeeps: neat21:11
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Stskeepsif it runs netbook ux like that, it runs handset ux for sure21:12
w00t_qgil: what about noveau?21:12
w00t_it's supposedly fairly usable nowdays21:12
Stskeepsw00t_: i think noveau's biggest problem is that the ux they want with it most likely doesn't work with it..21:13
w00t_Stskeeps: hm?21:13
Stskeepsw00t_: 'Any 3-D functionality that might exist is still unsupported. Do not ask for instructions to try it'21:13
w00t_Stskeeps: that's not really up to date21:13
w00t_people have done all sorts of stuff with it in more recent times21:13
CosmoHillyou know ctrl + w closes a tab on firefox21:13
CosmoHillis there an alternative if your left handed?21:14
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w00t_Stskeeps: e.g. (and that was 2008) from a quick google21:14
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Stskeepsw00t_: texture from pixmap probably the usual reuqirement21:16
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w00t_Stskeeps: to put it another way: pretty sure it can run compiz/etc nowdays, so I can't see why it'd have problems21:17
w00t_and stop tempting me to _try_ this and see how I manage dammit21:17
Stskeepsw00t_: it's an itch, scratch it21:17
w00t_gnng :P21:17
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vgradeStskeeps, log of the A9 bringup,
Stskeepsvgrade: coool21:18
Stskeepsmeego on more devices for sure, can only help if meego gets 'hip' to port instead of android21:18
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Stskeepssomeone wanted to put it on their ipad or something, heh21:18
vgradethe sssseeeee33333 thing needs sorting so more peeps can try21:19
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GAN900I wish Intel weren't so anti-community with the hardware support21:24
GAN900We get that you don't want to "support" your competitors, but it's hurting you unaffiliated contributors.21:25
RST38his it, really>21:25
RST38hWhat prevents you from compiling meego kernel with SSSE3 disabled?21:26
w00t_GAN900: i don't think it's quite like that really, I mean, look at the qemu-gl work21:26
GAN900Well, everytime the question comes up, some Intel employee jumps in to explain how Intel shouldn't have to support their competitor's products21:26
GAN900Which is entirely the wrong way to look at it21:27
GAN900and a harmful one.21:27
aukeah right lemme start working on a ppc port <gets head smacked by manager>21:28
StskeepsGAN900: no, not really - people can step up to make the support21:28
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Stskeepsit is fair cos at any given feature, someone has to take the heavy lifting21:28
RST38hGAN: But why can;t you compile a meego kernel without Intel's participation?21:28
RST38hIsn't it just a matter of a #define?21:28
aukeGAN900: it's not enough that we put all this time into an open source project, but we now have to do the work for other companies too?21:28
Stskeepswhen a new feature enhancement is made, it's evaluated if intel has resources to do it, if nokia does, if anyone else wants to do it..21:29
GAN900Stskeeps, sure they can21:29
Stskeepsit's pretty much documented i believe21:29
aukeGAN900: also, how do you expect intel to do all the QA for non-intel hardware?21:29
GAN900but the fact that the support isn't there lowers adoption rates and increases barriers to entry21:29
GAN900auke, completely the wrong perspective.21:29
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aukeif you want to improve, why don't you go to <other companies> and get them to help?21:30
GAN900It's not about your competitors, it's about your contributors..21:30
Stskeepscontributors are more than welcome to do the work21:30
aukethat's not true21:30
aukeopen source works in the market place because it equals the playing field21:30
aukethat means, everyone has the same entry barriers etc21:30
* RST38h still does not understand what prevents non-intel people from compiling kernel with ssse3 turned off21:30
aukeand everyone needs to do their part to be part of it21:30
aukepeople who decide not to be part of it are left out21:30
aukewe're not here to hobby around21:31
GAN900More people using MeeGo benefits everybody21:31
CosmoHillyou will read, and you will enjoy :321:31
aukewe want to create a healthy ecosystem going forward21:31
RST38hauke: So, what are you here for?21:31
GAN900Fewer people hurts everybody21:31
StskeepsGAN900: ubuntu hasn't gotten to where it's at without people contributing21:31
aukeRST38h: money, so I can feed my kids21:32
GAN900When the barriers to entry are high for no reason, you're shooting yourself in the foot21:32
GAN900Stskeeps, also missing the point.21:32
aukeah, but there's a good reason ssse3 is required21:32
aukeotherwise atom would be very mediocre21:32
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RST38hauke: Honest answer.21:32
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aukeRST38h: I've been working on open source since 1999 or so, now I just get paid for it21:32
* RST38h doubts ssse3 makes any difference to atom's mediocrity21:32
aukehuge difference21:33
RST38hin some very special cases, like video codec, maybe21:33
RST38hin general, no21:33
StskeepsGAN900: no, i'm not missing the point really - resources are scarce and an itch is the best way to motivate people21:33
aukepower savings, huge21:33
RST38hgot numbers?21:33
Stskeepsjust look at GMA500 support. people were upset it was missing, people went ahead and started making .ks'es so it worked!21:33
aukeit's not just one aspect21:33
aukeRST38h: can't post numbers without legal approval21:33
CosmoHillAtom is a low performance processor, so they should do everything they can to get the best performace out of it21:33
RST38hauke: I see.21:34, one would think that if ssse3 gave such a wonderful advantage to Meego, the numbers would already be made public21:34
GAN900Stskeeps, not when the result is "Huh, well, that doesn't work. Guess I'll go play with Android."21:34
RST38hMeego-specific numbers of course, not the overall stuff21:35
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aukeit's not just ssse3, also the atom gcc optimizations21:35
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GAN900auke, you MIGHT Have a point if MeeGo were in a position of market leverage21:35
JaffaCosmoHill: Ctrl-W works perfectly for me (lef-handed) on my QWERTY keyboard...21:35
GAN900but it's not, so you're just losing contributors to things that do work--like Android.21:35
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aukewe won't get hardware vendors interested in meego unless it outperforms <others>21:35
RST38hauke: The SSSE3 requireent is the major problem for the community, not the gcc enhancement21:36
CosmoHillJaffa: i either take my hand off the mouse and press it or use my right hand and strech over the keyboard21:36
StskeepsGAN900: except they aren't really able to adapt into the android ecosystems anyway21:36
aukeso, meego needs to perform best on all hardware21:36
aukeincluding atom, arm21:36
RST38hauke: amd?21:36
StskeepsGAN900: find people who honestly get patches into android.21:36
aukeppc sparc w/e21:36
slaineauke, There where tests at the time of Moblin 2.1 that showed it performed poorly compared to other generic distros on the same hardware21:36
RST38hauke: older (pre-ssse3) intel cpus?21:36
aukeRST38h: who's going to sell hardware like that?21:36
vgradeas i understand it its not just the kernel its all the packages which need rebuilding21:37
RST38hauke: Intel has sold quite a lot21:37
aukeI don't think you get it. meego isn't for your junkers!21:37
slaineI don't think it gives an over all OS benefit. It certainly would help GL and video etc21:37
RST38hauke: And now, people cannot run Meego on this geniune Intel hardware21:37
GAN900But what do I know, clearly you guys have it all figured out.21:37
RST38hauke: Because somebody insists on using ssse3.21:37
aukerepeat after me: meego isn't for junkers/clunkers21:37
* RST38h sighs21:37
slaineRST38h: can't we make a 686 build with OBS ?21:37
CosmoHillmeego isn't for...heeeeyyyy21:38
JaffaCosmoHill: Ah, I use my mouse in my right hand so I can type with my left or write on paper21:38
aukeCosmoHill: haha21:38
RST38hSo, you are telling me my somewhat dated Merom is a clunker while your Atom-whatever is a shining pinnacle of performance?21:38
* CosmoHill lifes off throw outs21:38
slaineMy Pentium-M 1.7 out performs my Atom 1.6 hands down21:38
slaineit's not a clunker21:38
GAN900Stskeeps, I got the smack down on that point at FLS last year.21:38
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Stskeepsslaine: as i continously say.. problem isn't the core os, it's what the apps are built for21:38
RST38hslaine: This is what I am trying to figure out: why don't people compile ssse3-free kernel without Intel's participation?21:38
aukeRST38h: ideally, perhaps you have a point. but that point doesn't get companies interested in investing....21:38
CosmoHillStskeeps: i have proof of this21:38
CosmoHillI have core meego running on a P421:39
RST38hslaine: Same for my Centrino2, 3x Atom's performance21:39
aukesure I run meego on a core2duo, and an i7, and...21:39
slaineStskeeps: I was talking about moblin 2.1 which wouldn't even boot on non ssse3 compat cpu's21:39
Stskeepsslaine: ah21:39
JaffaRST38h: Perhaps - and this is a Devil's Advocate theory - because the people who defend Intel's right to not do it do it so vociferously, and so quickly, and are so senior in the MeeGo project they think it means *MeeGo* doesn't want to support that h/w.21:40
Stskeepsslaine: i still kinda think meego shouldn't either21:40
slaineit's performance was worse than most generic distros21:40
slainewhich I was highly surprised at21:40
RST38hauke: So, this beautiful open source project that is so much based on the OSS, where "people" are supposed to work on it for "freedom", will shun the same people in favor of potential corporate investors?21:40
CosmoHillJaffa: I'm right handed but I tend to use computers left handed depending on how much space is on the desk21:40
aukeslaine: if meego underperforms any distro, file a bugzilla21:40
Stskeepsfreedom doesn't come without work.21:40
aukeslaine: I promise you it will get looked at21:40
slaineauke, I've not bothered testing21:40
slainerecently that is21:41
slaineI just use it :)21:41
RST38hauke: (and I am not even sure how one would persuade investors that they absolutely need ssse3)21:41
slaineI'm hoping to have some scope to look at this over the coming weeks21:41
slainethe generic 686 build that is21:41
slaineI've a legit requirement21:41
aukeRST38h: we can't play fair, if you want us(intel) to invest a ton of money into infrastucture which is not going to benefit intel hardware21:42
StskeepsJaffa: i still maintain that if we have had requirements going from the start and the process shown, that each feature has to have people responsible for implementation and QA21:42
vgradeRST38h, noone said you coould not do it, just that intel would not21:42
RST38hJaffa: What a devious suggestion! I think you should be ashamed to even think about this!21:42
StskeepsJaffa: then we'd be perceiving things in a lot different way21:42
aukeRST38h: bottom line is that we try to be fair, but you can't just give intel all the blame21:42
aukewithout intel there wouldn't have been a meego21:42
slainehere here21:42
lcukauke?   huh not benefit intel people - most of the worlds computers run intel hardware.  brand confidence should mean something.21:42
RST38hit would be called Redhat and Maemo, indeed...21:42
Stskeepsif anyone is doubting that intel actually does try to play fair, we've been doing MeeGo ARM on what's essentially intel sponsored hardware.21:43
JaffaStskeeps: I think you're right - because others would be able to point to those same folk arguing in favour of h/w agnosticism (if the performance is there), but recognising the resource constraints on the current set of contributors.21:43
slaineI strongly believe the official releases should be targeted at the Atoms and optimized as much as possible to make that shine21:43
CosmoHilllook at it from a consumers point of view, if you have a computer with meego on it, it would have been pre-installed by the manufactorer21:43
lcukStskeeps, meego arm - are you putting the netbook image onto n900?21:43
Stskeepslcuk: meego arm is entire core plus others.21:43
MeOnTheGohello, i am a neophyte in btrfs (meego actually). i wanted to know the developer's perspective towards having btrfs as default fs in meego21:44
slaineI'd just think that developers that could contribute are more likely to have a wider range of hardware to work on21:44
CosmoHillmost of us are just annoyed we can't run meego on what we have because we're geeks and like new things21:44
StskeepsJaffa: have you seen the featuretracker btw?21:44
lcukso I should be able to run the netbook image on an arm chipset?21:44
slaineSo we should be able to make a 686 build using mic2 or something21:44
Stskeepslcuk: we haven't built netbook on arm, i did at some point but i didn't want to bother fixing clutter.21:44
JaffaStskeeps: Ah, so we should be "grateful" that Intel lets us into this party. There's a perception that Nokia is the junior partner, y'know.21:44
aukeI'm out for lunch, later folks :)21:44
JaffaStskeeps: Indeed, but with so much going on I've not been able to find time to find a bugbear and contribute.21:44
MeOnTheGosir, i couldn't install netbook meego on vmware21:44
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CosmoHillwhy do I feel a meeting coming on21:45
StskeepsJaffa: no, just saying that it's sometimes unfair to say intel isn't trying to play fair.21:45
vgradeslaine, the point surely is that you can try and buld it for you junkers, you have the source, the OBS21:46
JaffaStskeeps: I'm not saying Intel isn't rrying t play fair - my theory was that some people might *perceive* Intel are actively defending their turf when defending the decision to focus resources where they're currently being focused.21:46
StskeepsJaffa: :nod:21:46
StskeepsJaffa: perceptions are always difficult. just look at tmo atm.21:46
Stskeepseach of these will have someone it's assigned to, and a QA contact.21:47
slainevgrade: indeed, but the community OBS is only just coming onstream, it wasn't something planned from the beginning (icbw)21:47
Stskeepsif you want to have a feature roadmapped, provide those two21:47
JaffaStskeeps: I *think* I could go to every single one of the threads asking about non-SSSSSSSSSSE3 support and find very defensive messages about "why should Intel..." rather than "The MeeGo project aims to be hardware agnostic, however we currently don't have the hardware resources (OBS), QA mechanisms or staff to work on it. Patches and contributions wlecome."21:48
StskeepsJaffa: not a bad example21:48
slaineI tried and failed to build moblin 2.0 and 2.1 from source due to poor packing. Many others where in a similar boat21:48
vgradeim buliding on the maemo OBS at the moment, see lbt, so all the tools are there21:48
slaineI'll be trying again in the next week or so21:48
StskeepsJaffa: raise it with dawn?21:48
CosmoHillJaffa: if it's so common the threads should just be delete and leave the orginal or an annoycement21:48
slainevgrade: yes, I have an account too, just haven't had the time of late21:48
Stskeepsto point people in how things are supposed to be done and help perceptions21:48
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GAN900MeeGo people are certainly not helping MeeGo's perception.21:50
JaffaStskeeps: Yeah, I'll try and raise it with DawnFoster (damn, she's offline right now)21:50
JaffaIs there a log for #meego I can link to? :)21:51
JaffaGot it.21:51
lcukdid anybody have experience with the ubuntu moblin remix and what modifications were made to the moblin packages to get it running?21:51
vgradesorry, to start that one over again, it was just to maybe spark a organised community non sssssssssseeeeeeeeee33333333 build21:51
JaffaTa mgedmin21:51
StskeepsGAN900: technical people are usually horrible at communication.21:51
slainevgrade: it's been a thorny subjects for a long time21:51
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vgradeso anyone want to get involved?21:53
CosmoHillsounds good21:53
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Jaffaauke: Nice use of topical maths/CS reference in dealing with reply-to munging :)21:54
GAN900Stskeeps, clearly.21:54
lcukvgrade, whats needed - servers? time? planning? or just someone to add a switch to the generic obs?21:54
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Stskeepsjust be considerate of meego community obs resources, a full rebuild is a bitch21:55
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vgradelcuk, not entirely sure but all those things probably :)21:55
slainevgrade: yes21:56
slaineas I mentioned before, I'd planned on starting something in the coming week or two21:56
slaineso if there's other interested then that'd be greayt21:56
infobotslaine meant: so if there's other interested then that'd be great21:56
slainelcuk, the other distro's just packed up the the mutter plugins and created  gdm session to launch moblin desktop's21:56
slainewell, mutter-moblin plugin and the moblin-panel apps21:56
slainethanks Stskeepz21:56
lcukslaine, would the same patches work now - just with renamed packages21:56
lcukthey have to exist somewhere21:56
slaineno patches where needed21:57
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* CosmoHill downloads a src.rpm and tries to compile21:57
lcukthere was a big announcement back end of last year from canonical and dell about it21:57
lcukahhh slaine, cool21:57
CosmoHillI knew it wouldn't be that simple >.<21:58
lcukCosmoHill, better than my attempt, it opened in notepad21:58
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nachohey guys21:58
nachodo you know how am I suppose to play mp3s?21:58
nachopackagekit says that the mpeg plugin for gstreamer doesn't exists21:58
nachoand I could find anything with yum21:58
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nachoam I suppose to add any other source repository?21:58
CosmoHilllcuk: if it opened notepad on my headless linux server I'd be very confused21:59
slaineFedora just made an rpm out of the source21:59
slaineFedora will have a Meego spin for F1421:59
slaineThe way the X session works on the netbook is, X -> mutter WM -> mutter-moblin plugin (toolbar and panel support)21:59
lcukCosmoHill, :D21:59
CosmoHilllooks like /usr/lib/rpm/macro has been customised21:59
CosmoHill(just a guess)21:59
slaineYou then have moblin-panel-myzone, moblin-panel-blah run and they connect via dbus to mutter-moblin21:59
slaineOn Moblin/Meego, uxlaunch starts X and triggers loading mutter and the plugin and panels22:00
slaineFor an other distro, you just need to make a standard .desktop session file22:00
slainethat does the same22:00
vgradeok guys I'll open a wiki page on non SSSSEEEE3 and make an announcment in a couple of days after I have done some research22:00
CosmoHilltimeless_mbp: << you might like22:01
CosmoHillallows you to unpack src.rpm files22:01
lcuknacho, dunno about the mp3 issue22:01
w00t_Stskeeps/others, re: communication..22:01
lcukI would have thought it would be included though?22:01
w00t_it's kind of understandable why defensive attitudes crop up, though22:02
nachoI thought so22:02
nachobut I'm not able to play any mp322:02
w00t_08/11@19:24:50 <GAN900> I wish Intel weren't so anti-community with the hardware support22:02
nachoalso when I try to play it with totem packagekit is run and it is not able to find any plugin22:02
Jaffaw00t_: Chicken/egg?22:02
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GAN900The responses were defensive fro' the offing.22:03
Jaffaw00t_: But it won't help, true.22:03
slainenacho, you need to have the codec's for mp3 installed22:03
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slainedue to licensing issue, intel won't be able to ship them.22:03
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CosmoHillhey guys22:04
CosmoHilli think it's possible to compile and install meego-rpm-config-1.2.3.src.rpm on our computers22:04
CosmoHillthis would then setup RPM macros which in theory would allow us to compile other RPM packages22:05
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lcukCosmoHill, Meego-From-Scratch? :D22:05
slaineYou'd end up linking against local libs etc.22:05
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Stskeepsslaine: or anyone, for that sake..22:06
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CosmoHillslaine: hmm maybe, but at least it would compile22:07
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slaineWhat's the problem you're having CosmoHill ?22:07
slaineAre you wanting to package meego rpms on a non-meego os ?22:07
CosmoHillI'd like to be able to recompile the meego src.rpm files22:07
slaineYou can only do that if you have the appropriate deps22:08
Stskeepsyou know, there's not really anything stopping people from providing repo's with the right things22:08
CosmoHillor if you compile them in the right order :)22:08
slaineand the spec files for meego are for meego, not any other distro22:08
CosmoHillslaine: I build my distro from source22:08
slaineCosmohill, I'd some scripts that handled doing the whole thing for moblin22:08
slaineI know22:09
CosmoHillso i could configure it like meego :)22:09
slainewot lcuk said22:09
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Stskeepsw00t_: people get defensive when being attacked over and over again22:09
CosmoHillthat wasn't me >.>22:09
w00t_Stskeeps: yup, my point22:09
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nachoslaine, the problem is that such code doesn't exists22:14
* lcuk goes watching England vs Hungary22:14
CosmoHilloh crap22:14
CosmoHillRedding are playing today22:15
lbtJaffa, Stskeeps etc ... on the ssse3
lbtvgrade: ^^^22:15
lbtand slaine auke22:16
lbtI'd appreciate editorial comments ... I think it's a bit strong in places :)22:16
vgradewhat a coincidence :)22:17
lcuklbt, reading whilst football on, Postition22:17
lbtvgrade: I started drafting 3 weeks ago... it's a bitch to write without being offensive22:18
lbtand I've been a tad busy :)22:18
Jaffalbt: timely22:18
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Stskeepslbt, i kinda think the 'central' obs situation follows same pattern as with features/requirements.. provide resources (people, donations, machines) and it's possible given that it doesn't conflict with other parts of roadmap22:18
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lbtI think I say something like that in the "Counters" section ...22:19
Stskeepshaving a feature requires you to take responsibility for it22:20
lcuklbt, title and intro are the only "strong" bits, but its attention grabbing.  as usual for you david, considered and spot on.22:20
lbtStskeeps: that's a good point ...22:20
lbtI feel I say "them" too much :)22:21
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Stskeepsyou can suggest a feature as a user, but someone has to take responsibility for implementation and QA (and other things needed)22:21
Stskeepsand commit to that feature to keep it working22:21
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lbtOTOH isn't that an essential part of the MeeGo offering to "the market"22:21
Stskeeps.. but that's just my sleepy view22:21
lcuklbt, Stskeeps - go back 12 months and consider Mer on bigger machines.  that is how meego should be.22:22
lbtAsking for an Athlon (or whatever, Nvidia?) build would be a problem.... but a "reference build"?22:22
RST38hlbt: so what is the problem? install an independent build system somewhere and rebuild the whole thing sans ssse3, no?22:23
lbtone that uses Mesa maybe?22:23
Stskeepslcuk, having proper process and commitment is needed - i mean, we'll have the nice view of seeing how modern product processes works in the open22:23
Stskeepsand exactly why companies want support contracts ;)22:23
lbtRST38h: it's an option ... but I feel it would be more inclusive for MeeGo to support a broader base22:23
lbtclearly the community OBS can now do that22:23
Stskeepslbt, it also bends back to if meego is a os for others to build on or a os for people to use..22:24
Stskeepswhich is a hot topic, too22:24
lbtyes... "Is MeeGo a platform or a product" ?22:24
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RST38hlbt: I do think that the best way to solve these problems is to set up infrastructure completely independent from both Intel and Nokia22:24
lbtRST38h: the community one is pretty much that22:25
StskeepsRST38h: who are you calling for a big obs farm to accomplish this?22:25
RST38hlbt: not really, it is owned by corpses22:25
RST38hlbt: even more so than maemo.org22:25
lbtwell yes... and me and neils are running it22:25
slaineMoblin suffered heavily from the platform or product issue22:25
slainedid maemo ?22:26
Stskeepsslaine: it was a product22:26
RST38hStskeeps: Isn't it possible to run obs on a locla machine, build the whole system, and make binaries available to everyone?22:26
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StskeepsRST38h: sure, it just takes time and bandwidth22:26
slaineThat's essentially what my make-moblin scripts did22:26
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lbtRST38h: and we have 3 16core machines with 6Tb of disk on OSU... but if you have a spare box...22:26
* CosmoHill 's ears prick up22:27
CosmoHillsuper computers you say?22:27
slainethey're not being thrown out CosmoHill, so no, you can't have one for your lan22:27
RST38hlbt: neither you nor niels are intel employees, so why not build ssse3-free meego rather than complain?22:27
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Stskeepsslaine: i wonder if it's time to start that discussion again though22:28
lbtRST38h: because I want MeeGo to do the right thing22:28
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RST38hlbt: and that is...?22:28
Stskeepsslaine: it's quite simple really. is MeeGo a platform to build upon, or something for users (affects marketing, etc)22:28
lbtanyone on the OBS beta can import and build MeeGo22:28
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lcukcan they share it with the world though?22:29
Stskeepsslaine: downside is that platform hype sometimes originates from user perception..22:29
lbtRST38h: see the Proposal section :22:29
lbtAdd a 'generic x86' target to the build22:29
slainelbt, I think a generic x86 release is in the realm of the community though22:29
slaineI think Intel are right to pitch the Atom as entry level approach22:29
lbtI think MeeGo should support it22:29
slainefor their reference release22:29
lbtand the community should spin it to include ATI gfx22:29
slainefair point22:29
lbtI would support a reference release using software rendering22:30
slaineStskeeps: Moblin certainly had a split personality in that regards22:30
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Stskeepsslaine: dawn said she had noticed the same problem in meego22:30
lcuklbt, depending on the specific x86 that may not even be noticable22:31
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Stskeepsslaine: like, the schizophrenic marketing22:31
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slaineI ran moblin 2.1 UI from Fedora and Ubuntu distro's on Celeron-M with 855GM graphics, was fine22:31
slaineStskeeps: exactly22:31
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slaineOne part of the organization that's dealing with ODM's is pitching it as a platform, the part dealing with OEM's is pitching it as product22:32
slaineDell had their own tiered repo's for their moblin release for example22:32
slaineand that was the plan at the time22:32
TSCHAKeeewhich had working poulsbo stuff long before anyone else22:33
lbtslaine: another comment ... how many times have you seen "MeeGo *is* the community" ?22:33
TSCHAKeeei see that comment said when it is convienient to say it.22:33
TSCHAKeeethat's the only way i can put it.22:34
slainethat's been used on a few projects in fairness22:34
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TSCHAKeeeit's said when they want to rev us up22:34
slaineI guess it's all these things, as it's a tool and it depends on how you want to use the tool ???22:34
lbtI just don't have a problem using it to justify building generic x6 in the core22:35
lbtmy 8 key is wonly22:35
TSCHAKeeenot the only one22:36
lbtit's a microsoft keyboard22:36
* lcuk hands lbt a bag of keys22:36
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* lbt doesn't mind relegating MS to be a keyboard+mouse vendor...22:37
lcukits good hardware :)22:37
lcukunless you get one of those keyboards broken down the middle22:37
lcukits like buying pre-ripped jeans22:38
lbtI tried bending an old one... didn't work... they ping off everywhere22:38
lcukfootball is dull tonight22:38
lcuki've been a member of ##sports now since the WC and seen quite a few games, this one is deffo not great22:39
vgradei feel as though events have taken over from my suggestion of a community effort for a non SSSSEEEE3 build but will open a wiki page anyway22:40
vgradelbt, what heavy lifting do you need from people to do this on the new OBS22:41
lbtgood question22:41
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vgradeok, first section of the wiki sorted22:41
lbtprobably finding a way to sync the projects and handle a way to spin on them22:42
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slainePhoronix did some comparisons of the Moblin 2.1 and MeeGo 1.0 releases against other distros at the time,22:42
Stskeepsfrankly? i believe it's a matter of editing prjconf, rebuild gcc, binutils, then everything.22:42
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lcukStskeeps, you often do ":P" to imply YMMV :D22:43
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vgradeif its that easy what was the last hours discussion about22:43
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w00t_vgrade: there is a reason the phrase "talk is cheap" exists22:44
Stskeepsvgrade: because the problem isn't the core, the problem is the apps.22:44
vgradeah, ok22:44
w00t_Stskeeps: not really an issue yet22:44
slainevgrade, you've basically scratched and old wound, we've been complaining about this since February in Meego and February 2009 in Moblin22:44
vgradeso thats the heavy liftinh22:44
Stskeepsw00t_: damage's already done, atom sdk exists22:44
lcukStskeeps, your twittersheep is awesome
Stskeepsslaine: at least all the prjconfs and info how to set up obs is there..22:45
w00t_Stskeeps: realistically, I still don't think it's a problem though22:45
slainelcuk: that's awesome22:45
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slaineStskeeps: it was there for moblin2.1 too, it just didn't work, lol22:46
lcukslaine, its great, it lets you see what sort of people are following your progress22:46
Stskeepslcuk: it also shows what i'm about22:46
slainemines not too bad actually22:46
w00t_ <- haha.22:46
w00t_I have many, many adjectives22:47
w00t_('hippy'? wtf.)22:47
CosmoHillyoung? rude? punk?22:47
slainew00t_: we all knew it, dirty hippy22:47
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w00t_slaine: i'm tempted to combine words on that page to make proper descriptions22:48
w00t_e.g. "dirty open source hippy"22:48
* lcuk likes 22:48
* slaine wipes tears from his eyes and tea from his screen22:48
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ScottishDuckmy last tweet was a particularily nice one22:48
lcukwhat I have noticed after looking around LOTS of these is that there is little meego mentions in all the bios of people22:49
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Stskeepslbt: on a sidenote, when is community OBS supposed to move out of beta?22:49
w00t_ScottishDuck: why are all your tweets duplicated22:49
lcukso you would expect high profile meego folks to be watched by other high profile meego people etc22:49
lbtStskeeps: when I finish it22:49
ScottishDuckI see no duplication22:49
lbtI'm doing an issues list with X-Fade22:50
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Stskeepslbt: k22:50
lbtthe maemo one is just running... the focus now is on the OSU big beast22:50
Stskeepslbt: technical question, workers are in xen vms right?22:50
Stskeepsor kvm22:50
timelessisn't xen the tech that lost?22:51
* lcuk saw lots and lots of big Nokia ones22:51
lbtno special reason other than I know xen better22:51
lcukbut not so many Intel ones22:51
ScottishDuckI don't have that22:51
lbttimeless: support the underdog22:51
timelesslbt: i have a box configured for xen22:51
timelessbut even oracle dropped it22:52
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w00t_lbt: time to switch to emacs, then?22:52
timelessalthough i think they're favoring vbox22:52
* w00t_ run run runs22:52
timelesswhich given that they own vbox makes sense22:52
lbttimeless: oracle dropped it..? that's unusual... they seem so ..... open...22:52
thopiekarvgrade: ping22:53
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timelessi thought they did22:53
timelessbut right now i can't finda ref22:53
w00t_lbt: where are you? you must either be nearby or telling some serious untruth, my bullshit alarm just vibrated off my desk22:53
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allandrickg'day - anyone played with Bluetooth on MeeGo yet?22:54
* allandrick is trying it out now.22:54
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* lbt takes Stskeeps' hint and goes to hack on the OBS some more22:58
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CosmoHilllbt and lcuk:
* allandrick can't seem to find the pin settings...23:00
lcukCosmoHill, I cannot watch 2 tv programs and irc at same time :P23:01
lcukand england football is on :P23:01
CosmoHillit's alright, it's ipplayer :)23:01
JaffaCosmoHill: I heard that advertised on R4 on Monday. Is it good? If so, I'll download it for my flight home23:01
CosmoHillyou have up to 7 days to watch it23:01
JaffaIt's also radio, isn't it?23:01
CosmoHillyou can download?23:01
* lcuk knows23:01
* Jaffa has access to bbcredux.com23:02
CosmoHillyears 4 to 6 at school get taught to touch type23:02
infobotCosmoHill meant: years 4 to 6 at school get taught to  type23:02
allandrickI reckon my problems are the modules not loading.23:03
allandricklsmod == empty.23:03
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CosmoHillJaffa: i'm 5 mins in and it's very good so far23:03
* allandrick scratches his head.23:03
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th3hatethe n900's alpha unstable release is really slow and unreponsive, will it get better toward the beta?23:06
lbt"my dad explained why the keyboard was like that..... but to be honest I wasn't really listening" :D23:06
CosmoHilllbt: lol yeah23:06
Jaffath3hate: Stskeeps says there are numerous performance enhancements in the works (improved drivers, better compile options, etc.)23:06
Stskeepsth3hate: it's a development image, what do you expect?23:07
leinirth3hate: Read your own statement, especially the part about "alpha", and then ponder on what the answer might be ;)23:07
CosmoHill"dirty mr qwerty" lol23:07
th3hatei expected a bit more from an alpha image.. we're really close to the beta :S23:07
th3hatebeta = feature freeze23:07
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CosmoHillalpha = proof of concept?23:08
th3hatethats pre-alpha23:08
lbtth3hate: feel free to argue amonst yourself23:08
CosmoHilleureka = proof of concept?23:08
th3hateno problem anyway.. just hoping it would get better toward the beta23:09
lbtit will23:09
th3hatei bet23:09
* allandrick reboots after symlinking the modules directory.23:09
tyan_about of slowness is the is it TI:s GFX driver open sourced in N900 on Meego? As far as iI know GFX is not open sourced oin N900 maybe thats why it is slow?23:10
allandrickoooh much better.23:10
CosmoHilllbt: I keep looking down at my keyboard when he talks about some parts23:10
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lbtyou'll find some off typos as I now configure the OBS by tougvh typing23:11
lcukhow fast do omeled things refresh at?23:11
lcuk(or whatever the acronym is)23:11
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lcuki can't type with that on, radio enforces listening o_O23:12
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allandrickwow the range on the bt dongle I got is like 6"23:14
* allandrick boggles.23:14
allandrickno wonder it was so cheap !23:14
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lbtallandrick: use it as a proximity key23:15
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allandricklol cheers I was hoping for handsfree audio but yeah, maybe it can start my car instead :P23:16
Stskeepstyan_: no, that's not it, often, closed source drivers are faster :P23:16
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allandrickcan't expect much from 3 quid tho I suppose...23:16
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thopiekarare there ready images on the net for meego+emgd?23:17
tyan_Stskeeps: hmm what I meant was that Meego beta seems slow cause the lack of real 3d driver?23:18
thopiekarthe kickstarting thing doesn't work for me..23:18
Stskeepstyan_: we're not at beta yet, it's alpha23:18
lbtCosmoHill: as all the keytops are wearing off I get to touch type more... if only I used more than 2 fingers23:18
DocScrutinizerlcuk: amoled? should be fast23:18
Stskeepstyan_: slowness is actually other factors, like MMC access23:18
CosmoHill*kid typing with one finger*23:18
CosmoHillme: you can use both hands23:19
CosmoHillhim: okay!23:19
tyan_Stskeeps: Is see but whats the propgress on GFX anytway?23:19
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CosmoHill*kid types using one finger from each hand*23:19
DocScrutinizerlcuk: actually like CRT23:19
Stskeepstyan_: it's looking good. we need some things from DSS2 submitted to upstream and meego kernel, but i've had things working.23:20
allandrickthopiekar: not yet23:20
Stskeepstyan_: i'm wondering if SGX can/should be overclocked.23:20
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lcukDocScrutinizer, ahh so its not like e-ink which I was mixing it up with, but I did find out that showing a mostly black screen would consume much less power - thats a nice datapoint.23:22
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lcukare there any amoled devices which could be capable of hosting meego?23:22
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ScottishDuckGalaxy S could be hacked23:23
* lcuk was playing in phone store at weekend with some amazing looking super slick devices23:23
ScottishDuckAlthough I heard it has a closed bootloader23:23
DocScrutinizerlcuk: (am)oled is basically same principle like plasma, when it comes to refresh rate and power consumption vs screen content23:23
lcukdoesn't the N85 have amoled?23:23
* auke is back from lunch23:24
DocScrutinizerno idea. Samsung has all in amoled now23:24
lcuki dont know which I was looking at23:24
lcukI took photos, but the label is all blurred23:24
DocScrutinizersaturated colors but allegedly no good visibility in sunlight23:24
CosmoHilllcuk: << that;s a keybaord :D23:25
lcukCosmoHill, yeah, optimus maximus has been floating around for a while23:25
CosmoHillthat costs more than my car did :/23:25
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DocScrutinizercost like gold23:25
lcukCosmoHill, thats gonna be a mouse ->
CosmoHillI like my Roccat Kova23:26
CosmoHilldecent usb mouce which is what I needed23:26
lcuki quite like the idea of having a nice touch device at my finger tips ;)23:26
CosmoHillit has buttons on both sides for left and right handed use23:26
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DocScrutinizerhmm, righthand here. Logi MX Revolution23:27
lcuki have a wired logitech laser23:27
lcukfirst laser which has got me away from ballmouse tbh23:28
CosmoHillmy other wired keyboard is a Logitech MX510 that I got when I was 16 :D23:28
lcuknon visible too so no bright red light glowing when I pick it up23:28
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DocScrutinizerthe OMRON switches are crap, needed a swap with old Mousman revamped switch :-)
CosmoHillI have a MX700 (killed batteries), Mighty mouce (followed grains on my wooden desk) and a bluetooth mightmouce23:29
CosmoHillthe mighty mice have bad scroll balls and don't right click properly23:30
* lcuk is wired23:30
lcukI had to stop using a mousepad with the laser though23:30
DocScrutinizerlogi not using proper BT for protocol is a PITA - but otherwise best mouse I ever had23:31
allandrickhas there been any meego updates since the 1.0 release?23:31
CosmoHill1.01 i think23:31
allandrickI'm wondering if rebuilding my ks will help.23:31
CosmoHillonly available via update iirc23:31
allandrickupdate in the OS itself?23:31
CosmoHillyum update23:31
CosmoHillthat kinda update23:31
allandrickon the meego device itself?23:31
allandrickor in the build env.23:32
lcukDocScrutinizer, every mouse I have ever tried which is wireless fails - I strongly dislike lag, in the time between moving mouse and stopping again normally the signals havent caught up23:32
CosmoHillask lcuk :)23:32
allandrickyum isn't even installed on the meego device :P23:32
lcukask me what? building inside meego?23:32
DocScrutinizerlcuk: can't reproduce23:32
lcuki need meego hardware to do that23:32
Stskeepsallandrick: zypper is23:33
lcuki wont run emulated23:33
DocScrutinizerlcuk: only annoyance is suspend mode sometimes needs a kick to wake up23:33
lcuki have many intel devices here23:33
lcukand none are properly compabile23:33
allandrickit's off doing something now.23:34
allandrick26 packages to upgrade, 1 new.23:35
allandricknew kernel.23:35
aukezypper install yum; yum remove zypper23:36
aukeproblem solved23:36
allandrickhadn't thought of it like that.23:36
aukeI'm not joking23:37
allandrickwhy is it there are so many different versions of the same thing23:37
allandrickyum, apt-get, emerge, zypper (new one for me)23:37
allandrickcvs, svn, and now git23:37
allandrickthe mind boggles.23:37
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* lcuk >> out23:37
* allandrick waves.23:38
aukeallandrick: vim, emacs23:38
aukeP, NP23:38
allandrickthat's different auke23:38
aukeJaffa: :)23:38
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allandrickvim has improvements over vi, emacs is a totally different beast.23:38
allandrickit's like comparing notepad with notepad++23:38
aukeJaffa: I'm bringing up Russel's paradox next23:38
allandrickI"m just saying - a lot of duplicated effort23:39
allandrickit's ego that does it tho.23:39
allandrickppl just can't get along.23:39
* allandrick slaps himself with a wet fish.23:40
allandrickeven I hate me.23:40
aukeasm, c, c++, pascal, modula-2, java, lisp, etc....23:40
Jaffaallandrick: You been reading the "Would you miss the Council if it was gone?" thread on :-/23:40
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CosmoHillWindow home basic, prem, pro, enterprice starer etc23:40
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allandrickJaffa: no mate, just got started in on this MeeGo stuff on Monday23:40
Jaffaallandrick: There's a nice definition of mismatched expectations and "not get along"edness23:41
* Jaffa is biased, being one of the volunteers being railed on ;-)23:41
allandrick19 pages?23:41
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allandrickno wonder nothing gets done - everyone's bitching at each other on forums :)23:41
Jaffaallandrick: Maybe, I see 7 cos I've bumped up the number of posts per page23:41
allandrickyou're living in denial then :P23:42
JaffaToo right!23:42
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allandrickcbf reading that23:42
allandrickI'm too old for politics :P23:42
allandrickI just want shit to work already ;-)23:42
aukelol interesting thread23:42
CosmoHillyou're to old to be f too23:42
CosmoHillhey auke23:42
* allandrick puts a post-it note on his monitor reminding him this channel is logged.23:43
aukeallandrick: assume all channels are logged.23:44
* allandrick was using the internet before logs were invented.23:44
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allandrickahh those were the days.  you could dial into a DECNET terminal server at 1200/75, LAT connect to a VMS system and from there telnet to the local SMTP server and send mail from god@heaven.com23:45
allandrickfreaked out the first years.23:45
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allandrickahhh TGV.23:46
JaffaAh, SMTP conversations. Those were the days23:46
* allandrick nods knowingly, stroking his long grey beard.23:46
aukeraise your hands if can can type SMTP to a server over telnet23:46
* Jaffa hands up23:46
* auke raises hand23:46
thiago_homecould you whistle the connection at 1200/75 ?23:47
* allandrick raises his hand.23:47
aukethiago_home: XD23:47
allandrickonly 300 thaiiago_home23:47
aukeok now we've identified the old people23:47
* allandrick isn't old. Just worn out.23:47
* thiago_home is from the EHLO time23:47
aukeraise your hands if you never played doom 3D23:47
allandricksee, there you go again - what was wrong with HELO?23:47
thiago_homethere's a 3D version?23:47
* thiago_home is considering buying SC2 though23:48
thiago_homefirst game in over 10 years23:48
* allandrick wonders if castle wolfenstein counts...23:48
aukeallandrick: possibly23:48
allandrickC=128 in C=64 mode.23:48
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slaineauke: now I feel old based on that doom question23:49
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allandrickright - reboot time - see what the updates bring.23:50
* allandrick installs yum while he's at it.23:51
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* allandrick cackles.23:51
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vgradeallandrik, you probably did'nt want to upgrade the kernel23:56
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allandrickI'm driving blind here mate, I've really know enough to be dangerous.23:58
allandrickwe'll find out in a minute :)23:58
allandrickvgrade: evening by the way23:58
vgradeevening, what about ya23:59
allandrickalright mate, y'self?23:59

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