IRC log of #meego for Wednesday, 2010-08-11

ShadowJK	.. and command to go back to realtime/normal	00:00
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CosmoHill	some scary stuff on bbc1	00:39
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CosmoHill	two crazy forien women run across the motorway (freeway) without success	00:40
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auke	sounds more like youtube material	00:40
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CosmoHill	there happened to be a BBC camera man with the police crew	00:41
leinir	Other BBC stuff on right now which is scary, but in a much more incredibly nifty and brilliant sort of way: Mongrels ;)	00:41
CosmoHill	woman ran into the road and got hit by a lorry	00:41
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CosmoHill	then her sister ran into the road and got hit by a car	00:42
lbt	CosmoHill: isn't that > 6 months old	00:43
CosmoHill	yes	00:43
CosmoHill	still scary	00:43
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lbt	this is more scary http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10912376	00:44
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trem	nite all, sweet dreams	00:46
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CosmoHill	lbt: 2 years	00:51
CosmoHill	it just said	00:51
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allandrick	evening!	01:02
* allandrick had an entirely productive day at work today.		01:03
allandrick	despite not getting anywhere near enough sleep :P	01:03
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CosmoHill	yay	01:03
allandrick	Hey Cosmo	01:03
* allandrick bounces		01:03
allandrick	We got IVI UX on my Joggler last night Cos :)	01:04
* allandrick thanks vgrade		01:04
allandrick	shopped for components at lunch today - bu353, obd-II and BT2.0 on their way :-)	01:04
allandrick	all for less than 55 notes!	01:05
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vgrade	allandrick, evenning	01:06
allandrick	g'day mate	01:06
allandrick	so - question - meego is an amalgamation of a couple of projects, right?	01:07
ScottishDuck	maemo and moblin	01:07
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allandrick	coool	01:08
allandrick	So hopefully we'll see some of the apps come across in time	01:08
allandrick	I've found an absolute corker for the OBD-II interface	01:09
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allandrick	http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/	01:09
ScottishDuck	The SDK has some early releases	01:10
ScottishDuck	so folk can start porting	01:11
vgrade	carman looks like is will run ok	01:11
allandrick	awesome vgrade	01:11
allandrick	I've ordered a cable ;-)	01:11
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vgrade	\o/, I've just brought up the netbook UK up on the Joggler	01:13
vgrade	sorry that should have been handset UX :)	01:14
allandrick	lol nice	01:14
allandrick	much different?	01:14
vgrade	just playing with it now, video later I think	01:15
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Andy80	hi all	01:19
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Andy80	I've followed these instructions http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU and I've the MeeGo handled UI up and running... ok.. and now? It's called MeeGo SDK, but... how can I compile something (for example a Qt/C++ application) and run inside the emulator?	01:20
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allandrick	hi andy	01:20
Andy80	hi allandrick	01:21
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allandrick	yuk	01:27
allandrick	vgrade: wireless doesn't support wpa	01:27
allandrick	or doesn't seem to	01:27
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allandrick	no	01:28
allandrick	I'm doing it wrong	01:28
allandrick	;-)	01:28
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allandrick	hmm	01:38
allandrick	got the wpa supplicant working	01:38
allandrick	associated	01:38
allandrick	but can't get an IP...	01:38
allandrick	hurm... no DHCPOFFERS received.	01:39
* allandrick breaks out wireshark.		01:40
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* allandrick digs out a lan cable.		01:44
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CosmoHill	yay	01:46
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allandrick	&^%$#	01:46
allandrick	mac address is borked.	01:46
* allandrick googles.		01:46
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allandrick	right	01:48
allandrick	connected.	01:48
* allandrick cheers.		01:48
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vgrade	allandrick, if you find new ways to do things would you mind adding them to http://jogglerwiki.info/index.php?title=MeeGo	01:56
allandrick	sure thing	01:56
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allandrick	at this stage all I've managed to do is configure the lan interface	01:56
allandrick	forcibly	01:56
allandrick	not sure it'll survive reboot	01:57
vgrade	yes, details of how to do that are on that page	01:57
allandrick	none of the system properties files are there	01:57
allandrick	quite a bit missing :)	01:57
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vgrade	yes, people have added things like ntp, ethernet, sound configs, see the wiki for details from other distos which you can use directly or modify	01:59
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vgrade	did you say you had sound last night?	01:59
vgrade	or this morning as it was	01:59
allandrick	I thought I had	01:59
allandrick	when I started navit I heard "Navit"	01:59
allandrick	but not this time	01:59
allandrick	just hissing this time	02:00
allandrick	will try a movie	02:00
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allandrick	ok something wierd	02:08
allandrick	modprobe is reporting failure to load /lib/modules/2.6.33.3/	02:09
allandrick	modules.dep	02:09
allandrick	yet the modules directory is 2.6.33.5-23.1-ivi	02:09
allandrick	hurm.	02:09
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allandrick	now screen is corrupting - I guess that's the famous joggler overheating.	02:13
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vgrade	allandrick, that modules thing needs fixing, I will sort and publish a new .ks file. The issue is that we have only the kernel bZimage and not the associated modules.	02:27
allandrick	gotcha	02:28
allandrick	that's the video driver thing right	02:28
allandrick	thing==issue	02:28
allandrick	gah	02:29
vgrade	no the bZImage is the kernel image which includes the DRM graphics river	02:29
* allandrick nods		02:29
allandrick	finding it difficult to test audio	02:29
allandrick	totem has no plugins - no mp3, no AC3	02:29
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vgrade	audio issue may be due to the lack of modules	02:29
allandrick	could be.	02:29
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vgrade	let me see what I can do, do you have IRC at work?	02:30
allandrick	trying a .wav	02:30
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allandrick	generally not - nor access to the joggler really	02:30
allandrick	Thursday I'm planning to work from home which will be interesting ;-)	02:31
allandrick	but I'm also home tomorrow evening	02:31
allandrick	can be on just after tea time.	02:31
allandrick	:)	02:31
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allandrick	in the mean time, if there's anything I can test/do to be useful - I'm happy to oblige. you have my contact details via the forums if you need them	02:34
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pavlix	where can I find meego package versions (e.g. gstreamer in meego 1.0)	02:40
pavlix	?	02:40
CosmoHill	would you like the long or the short answer?	02:40
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CosmoHill	short: you can't	02:45
Milhouse	is it just me or does meego fail to build on Ubuntu 10.04? Have been trying to build for the joggler but get a ton of "scriptlet failed, signal 4" errors.	02:46
Milhouse	errors with both emgd-netbook-3.ks and emgd-netbook-joggler.ks	02:47
allandrick	night all	02:48
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vgrade	Millhouse, not had that one	02:48
Milhouse	must be something i'm missing then	02:48
Milhouse	have updated syslinux etc. - what a pullava that was	02:48
vgrade	did you do the check deps thing?	02:49
Milhouse	yep, all good (apart from the check-deps getting confused by Ubuntu version numbers)	02:49
vgrade	using the git version of image-creator	02:49
Milhouse	my syslinux is 2:3.86 but it still thought it earlier than 3.85 as the check-deps checkpkg function doesn't realise that Ubuntu version numbers are prefixed by another number	02:50
vgrade	the meego-arm boys swear by a fedora VM to do mic builds	02:50
CosmoHill	s/by/at	02:50
CosmoHill	s/by/at/	02:50
Milhouse	vgrade: yes - pulled it from git, ran make	02:50
infobot	CosmoHill meant: s/at/at	02:50
CosmoHill	dammit	02:50
Milhouse	ran check-deps - failed, so updated syslinux on ubuntu 10.04 from a ppa, checkdeps still failed because it's got an ubuntu-specific bug	02:51
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Milhouse	but all my deps are now good	02:51
Milhouse	hmm.. ok maybe i tell a lie	02:52
vgrade	CosmoHill :) nice one	02:52
Milhouse	i built mic from git... but may have ran the mic i installed from apt	02:52
* Milhouse goes off to re-run git version of mic to see if it makes any difference...		02:52
CosmoHill	vgrade: it's like working, only out of you and the pc, your the only one working	02:52
CosmoHill	s/your/you're/	02:53
infobot	CosmoHill meant: vgrade: it's like working, only out of you and the pc, you're the only one working	02:53
Milhouse	running now, but I can see I'm already getting lots of signal 4 errors. :(	02:56
Milhouse	anyone know what a signal 4 error might mean?	02:56
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* CosmoHill crys when he sees his time table		03:05
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Milhouse	I've uploaded the output from my emgd-netbook-3.ks build here if anyone would be so kind to take a look! :) http://pastebin.ca/1914817	03:08
Milhouse	(it's not pretty)	03:08
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thiago_home	Milhouse: it probably means the application received a signal 4.	03:10
thiago_home	that's a SIGILL	03:11
Milhouse	that much I guess for myself :)	03:11
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thiago_home	which processor do you have?	03:11
Milhouse	AMD Athlon XP	03:11
Milhouse	don't tell me this can only be built on pucka Intel?	03:11
thiago_home	are you running MeeGo binaries?	03:11
Milhouse	no - Ubuntu 10.04	03:11
thiago_home	so no pre-built binaries downloaded from repo.meego.com ?	03:11
Milhouse	no - pulled MIC from git and built it, now just running m-i-c	03:12
thiago_home	which process got SIGILL?	03:12
Milhouse	several hundred	03:12
Milhouse	http://pastebin.ca/1914817 <--- starts at glibc [32/656]. the command I ran is at the top	03:13
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vgrade	enough space on the drive Millhouse	03:14
Milhouse	lots	03:14
thiago_home	it's trying to run packages downloaded from repo.meego.com	03:14
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Milhouse	56% in use	03:14
thiago_home	those are optimised for Atom	03:14
Milhouse	yeah, i'm assuming each of these "scriptlets" is an rpm?	03:14
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Milhouse	some seem to work ok - others not so much	03:15
thiago_home	scriptlets is the pre- or post-install script that is run by rpm	03:15
Milhouse	has anyone built MeeGo on an AMD CPU?	03:15
thiago_home	it's probably launching some program, which in turn crashes	03:15
chandler	Milhouse: It looks like the signal 4 is from post-package-install steps that are run in the staging area for the image using the installed binaries. The illegal instruction is probably a SSE2/SSE3 instruction.	03:15
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chandler	It's probably not AMD per se that's the issue so much as the age of your processor.	03:15
* thiago_home wonders how one builds ARM images		03:16
Milhouse	that would really, really suck if you have to use Intel to build MeeGo	03:16
thiago_home	Milhouse: you don't have to use Intel	03:16
thiago_home	you just need a new processor	03:16
Milhouse	hmm maybe - shame as it's ideal for Linux :)	03:16
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Milhouse	ha... i'll have to give that some thought :)	03:16
chandler	thiago_home: qemu, I think	03:16
Milhouse	in the mean time would it be possible for someone to put a little note on the wiki about this dependency?	03:17
thiago_home	chandler: can qemu emulate instructions your processor doesn't have?	03:17
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thiago_home	Milhouse: I'm pretty sure it's there	03:17
chandler	I think it can, yes.	03:17
Milhouse	thiago: didn't neotice anything on the build instructions but I could have missed it	03:17
chandler	You can even emulate x86-64 on 32-bit x86... slowly :-)	03:17
Milhouse	chandler: would be great if this could be fixed in software	03:17
thiago_home	Milhouse: will probably always require qemu or a processor that has the same featureset	03:18
thiago_home	MeeGo Atom builds are optimised for Atom	03:18
Milhouse	Right but I'm guessing we don't have to build ARM on ARM?	03:18
thiago_home	you require a processor that is at least as good, in terms of CPU feature support	03:18
thiago_home	no, you need qemu for ARM	03:18
* Milhouse sobs :)		03:19
thiago_home	rpm pre- and post-install scripts can run anything from the system	03:19
thiago_home	and the system is ARM or Atom	03:19
thiago_home	therefore, either you have those CPUs, or you emulate them	03:19
* CosmoHill gives thiago_home a cookie		03:19
Milhouse	Presumably a VM on Win7 with an i7 CPU would work?	03:20
thiago_home	i7 has all the features Atom has, plus more	03:21
Milhouse	Is there a downloadable VM image for MeeGo?	03:21
pavlix	CosmoHill: and what would be the long answer (about getting package versions)? Maybe just the architecture packages would be ok. Maybe someone could tell me gstreamer version.	03:21
vgrade	yes, get virtualbox and a fedora VM	03:21
CosmoHill	but does the VM have the 3D support required?	03:21
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CosmoHill	pavlix: the long answer would be that you need to compile it yourself	03:21
Milhouse	vgrade et al: many thanks... will be back when I have a working VM. :)	03:21
gabrbedd	If I enable debugging messages for wpa_supplicant (/usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/fi.w1.wpa_supplicant1.service) -- any idea where the messages go??	03:21
CosmoHill	i think someone else might have already compiled one	03:22
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CosmoHill	gabrbedd: sorry, only used wireless on RHEL	03:22
thiago_home	except for MOVBE, but I doubt gcc generates such instruction	03:22
CosmoHill	Milhouse: you should be able to rename the file from .img to .iso and get virtualbox to load that	03:23
vgrade	Millhouse, i use the fedora 11 from here http://virtualboxes.org/images/fedora/	03:23
CosmoHill	vgrade: i thought virtualbox didn't have the 3D support needed by Meego?	03:23
thiago_home	Milhouse: there are downloadable disk images	03:23
thiago_home	Milhouse: you should be able to use that as a development environment	03:23
Milhouse	thanks - am downloading now :)	03:23
pavlix	CosmoHill: just to know package versions? I would not dare to expect debian-packages-like interface, but a short description of the architecture would be fine.	03:23
pavlix	(I guess the answer is to write it to the wiki myself.)	03:24
thiago_home	for running the apps, you must make sure that OpenGL (Netbook) or OpenGL ES (the others) works	03:24
Milhouse	vgrade: would Fedora 13 be an OK option?	03:24
CosmoHill	pavlix: sorry but I don't understand the question	03:24
Milhouse	thiago: I'll be testing the builds on a Joggler	03:24
CosmoHill	maybe compile ffmpeg and vlc yourself?	03:25
thiago_home	Milhouse: why don't you just download the pre-built handset image straight onto the Joggler?	03:25
Milhouse	is it available with emgd - didn't find it	03:25
Milhouse	was going for the netbook build - tried handset on N900 (not much to see!)	03:26
CosmoHill	vgrade: did you make the meego GMA500 image that you build public?	03:26
CosmoHill	if so, could I host a copy of that image?	03:27
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gabrbedd	CosmoHill: thanks :-/	03:27
vgrade	which one, ive done netbook, ivi and handset now on joggler	03:28
CosmoHill	erm actually	03:28
CosmoHill	vgrade: joggler	03:28
CosmoHill	since that is what Milhouse will want	03:28
Milhouse	drat, nobody seems to be seeding fedora13 - pulling down F12	03:28
CosmoHill	gabrbedd: could try in /log ?	03:28
CosmoHill	s@/log@/var/log@	03:29
Milhouse	vgrade: have you made your emgd joggler builds available?	03:29
Milhouse	i thought there were "issues"	03:29
CosmoHill	when aren't there issues?	03:29
gabrbedd	CosmoHill: Yeah... nothing's obvious. They don't seem to show up in messages, and there is no syslog.	03:29
vgrade	Cosmohill, no i've done ivi ux, netbook ux and handset ux on joggler	03:29
gabrbedd	CosmoHill: I'm now trying to sniff it out with lsof.	03:29
CosmoHill	you migh have to restart the demon once its' been enabeld	03:30
CosmoHill	vgrade: oh I see	03:30
vgrade	Millhouse, no images just instructions	03:30
CosmoHill	i think netbook might be best	03:30
Milhouse	actually there were two images I donwloaded... a pair of iso's.. never got the login prompt though (got the garbled screen, pressed ALT-F1 but no prompt)	03:31
vgrade	http://www.youtube.com/user/vgrade100	03:31
pavlix	CosmoHill: my original question was how do I learn package versions found in meego (without touching a meego device or installing meego). I am especially curious about the architecture, namely gstreamer.	03:31
Milhouse	vgrade: you're just taunting me now :)	03:31
CosmoHill	pavlix: for software versions you could look in the repo	03:31
CosmoHill	it should list them like package-1.2-1.i686.rpm	03:31
vgrade	yes, those images were for GMA500 based netbooks, I did not make those	03:31
CosmoHill	or something like that	03:31
CosmoHill	vgrade: I bet you filmed that on a N900	03:32
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vgrade	Nexus 1	03:33
gabrbedd	pavlix: http://mirrors1.kernel.org/meego/releases/1.0/netbook/images/meego-netbook-chromium-ia32/meego-netbook-chromium-ia32-1.0-20100524.1.packages	03:33
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pavlix	CosmoHill: thanks	03:33
CosmoHill	vgrade: so no public image that people can install onto their own jogglers?	03:33
pavlix	gabrbedd: thanks very much	03:33
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gabrbedd	CosmoHill: I'm starting to think they're going to /dev/null.	03:35
CosmoHill	well it never runs out of space no matter how much you put in it	03:35
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* gabrbedd wonders if `tail -f /dev/null` will work...		03:36
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CosmoHill	night night	03:43
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UlfHofemeier	Hi	03:47
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gabrbedd	ConmoHill: Doh! I should just use the -f option for wpa_supplicant	04:16
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* peb is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 19:38:00 2010		04:28
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darkkrai	is meego better than moblin?	04:49
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ScottishDuck	It's an evolution of moblin	04:54
ScottishDuck	Bed time	04:55
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* gnuyoga is thrilled see a huge fan following for meego (and sick of seeing dead android irc channels ;-) )		07:12
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* gnuyoga is looking at fellow release engineers and would like to contribute in that space, any one out here ?		07:30
gnuyoga	s/at/for/	07:30
chriadam	gnuyoga: channel's pretty quiet at this time of the day, if you wait a few hours things will get a bit busier in here.	07:31
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Stskeeps	gnuyoga: #meego can be rather dead at times but #meego-dev , #meego-handset etc are more active. regarding release engineering, ask at meego-dev@meego.com for where you can help out	07:55
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ChildOfGod	I hear that MeeGo will move to Qt. Does that mean the current Clutter based Netbook UX (the panels and the toolbars etc) will be rewritten in Qt?	08:42
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gnuyoga	chriadam, Stskeeps: thanks	08:51
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DuckBoot	bjSederja	09:41
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Stskeeps	morning anaZ, slaine	11:09
slaine	morning Stskeeps anaZ	11:09
w00t_	morning anaZ, Stskeeps, slaine	11:10
w00t_	(:-p)	11:10
slaine	hehehe	11:10
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sivang	hi all	11:16
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frals	uhm, is there a a tag for code snippets on the wiki or what should be used?	13:04
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CosmoHill	I think someone is DoSing LFS :(	13:15
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CosmoHill	anyone in her use xchat / xchat aqua?	13:21
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odin_	yay REGISTRATION time for MeeGo Conference 2010	14:21
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CosmoHill	yay	14:22
odin_	Special Dietary Restrictions: Internet access with all meals	14:22
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odin_	it is not clear what the process is in relation to the reserved accommodation, as in I don't mind if I need to find my own but if they need to fill in places then what is the process to put my hand up?	14:42
Jaffa	odin_: Don't know	14:42
Jaffa	odin_: See http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-August/001341.html	14:43
Jaffa	Waiting for a reply from Amy or DawnFoster	14:44
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thiago	is the SDK meeting in #meego-sdk or #meego-meeting?	14:45
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odin_	should be in #meego-meeting with robot logging/minutes	14:46
odin_	ls	14:46
thiago	thanks	14:46
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odin_	maybe need to close and announce the assistance within the next 6 weeks, so allow 2 months for everyone else to sort themselves out	14:50
odin_	then I guess they know how many rooms/spaces are left over for others to pay their own way at group discount rates	14:51
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CosmoHill	lcuk: what's your twitter name?	14:57
lcuk	lcuk..	14:58
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CosmoHill	hush you	14:58
lcuk	http://twitter.com/lcuk	14:59
* lcuk likes this: RT: my followers seem 2b enthusiastic hackers architects managers geeks engineers + devs who have a #nokia #mobile life! http://bit.ly/bkEZU2		14:59
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Stskeeps	meego sdk toolchain meeting in #meego-meeting	15:00
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Andy80	hi	15:00
Andy80	I've followed these instructions http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU and I've the MeeGo handled UI up and running... ok.. and now? It's called MeeGo SDK, but... how can I compile something (for example a Qt/C++ application) and run inside the emulator?	15:00
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CosmoHill	lcuk: I was going to see if I could find out where you are using geotagging	15:03
lcuk	you could just ask :)	15:03
lcuk	I am in Manchester England	15:03
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Khertan	Hi !	15:11
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timeless_mbp	thiago: i like to believe that you are	15:58
timeless_mbp	however i question group think	15:59
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GordonS	Hey all... is there someplace sane that I can download source for the various Maemo/Meego-related dependencies for Qt Mobility?	16:07
GordonS	That is, I'm trying to build on something other than Meego.	16:07
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GordonS	but I'm doing Meego development, so I'd ideally like to have all the plug-ins I reasonably can.	16:08
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pinheiro	hey guys :)	16:16
pinheiro	so design UI wise how does meego work aka were is the team :D me woudl like to share eforts :D	16:17
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GAN900	pinheiro, good luck.	16:18
GAN900	I don't think any of them have a public pressence	16:18
timeless_mbp	is there one such 'team'?	16:19
pinheiro	:(	16:19
timeless_mbp	actually, i think at a base there are arguably at least 5 such 'teams'	16:19
timeless_mbp	one for each family	16:19
timeless_mbp	(car, notebook, ...)	16:19
timeless_mbp	,me isn't sure what those things are called	16:19
* timeless_mbp sighs		16:19
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pinheiro	but how can we work toguether ?	16:20
* DuckBoot hands timeless_mbp a /		16:20
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timeless_mbp	DuckBoot: thanks	16:20
pinheiro	me wants to bring some of comunity voodo here	16:20
* DuckBoot hands pinheiro a /		16:21
DuckBoot	Hurry up while I still have some left.	16:21
pinheiro	"/" ?	16:21
pinheiro	:)	16:21
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pinheiro	me usualy versed in the irc slang :D	16:21
pinheiro	but :D	16:22
DuckBoot	/me too	16:22
* w00t_ three		16:22
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timeless_mbp	most of my irc clients use ',' as the command char	16:23
timeless_mbp	with the exception of this one	16:23
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timeless_mbp	and i just sat down having been using my other ones… so bad muscle memory bit me	16:24
pinheiro	so yeah if one was interested in trying to set up/(be part of) a normal open UI design platform in meego land what would be the best course of action?	16:25
timeless_mbp	shoot yourself in the head?	16:25
GAN900	pinheiro, email the list, guess.	16:25
timeless_mbp	or maybe get a nice dose of cyanide?	16:25
GAN900	pinheiro, I can't say I have much optimism for success, though.	16:26
pinheiro	timeless_mbp: :D well im beeond salvation :D	16:26
DuckBoot	timeless_mbp: There there - forgotten you happy pill today?	16:26
GAN900	This seems like one area where "open" doesn't actually apply.	16:26
pinheiro	GAN900: HOW SO?	16:26
w00t_	GAN900: i swear, if I meet you one day, I'm going to inject you with happy pills	16:26
w00t_	:-p	16:26
GordonS	pinheiro, CAN900: the first challenge is to get a working/recent development and test environment :-S	16:27
GAN900	w00t_, that would've been about a year ago.	16:28
pinheiro	GordonS: weell i been doing this for some years now and that is not as vital from a designers POV as you might think	16:28
GordonS	okay, fair enough :)	16:28
pinheiro	me usualy works on stuf that will be real in 1 yaers time, its mostly a matter of good comunicaton with developers and basacly undrstanding the language	16:29
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pinheiro	more important and complicated is usualy to get all the designers to sepeak the same language, ence me beeing here :D	16:31
timeless_mbp	DuckBoot: i made the mistake of supporting a friend's computer	16:31
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timeless_mbp	which involved trying to back it up and then installing a fresh os	16:31
timeless_mbp	unfortunately i failed to save the email account info and passwords	16:31
timeless_mbp	so i managed to get almost everything working	16:31
timeless_mbp	including 1/2 of his mailboxes	16:32
timeless_mbp	but he's now complaining that i lost one of his mailboxes :(~	16:32
timeless_mbp	helping people is a bad idea	16:32
DuckBoot	timeless_mbp: Ouch - That's the reason I wear my t-shirt with the text "NO - I will NOT fix your computer"	16:32
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w00t_	do it my way, lose both their mailboxes	16:33
timeless_mbp	i need one of those	16:33
w00t_	they'll never ask you again	16:33
w00t_	:-)	16:33
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CosmoHill	anyone know of a easy to use PXE boot server?	16:34
DuckBoot	timeless_mbp: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/frustrations/388b/	16:34
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CosmoHill	hehe, unisex frustration	16:34
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_daniel_	is here any Masayuki Ohtak :D	16:36
_daniel_	?	16:36
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Bluewind	hey guys I bootet meego on the n900 but the screen is very dark (read nearly black) hints?	16:41
Stskeeps	Bluewind: start flasher, hold down power key, immediately at same time turn up light	16:41
Bluewind	I have to shutdown before right?	16:42
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_daniel_	hey guys	16:45
danielwilms	Bluewind: or follow step 9) from http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=4812&postcount=1	16:45
_daniel_	what is the cheapest device that runs meego :P	16:45
Bluewind	danielwilms: thx	16:46
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th3hate	Stskeeps, latest meego image has hw accel?	16:48
GAN900	_daniel_, an Atom board?	16:48
Stskeeps	th3hate: always had	16:49
Stskeeps	th3hate: but no updated gfx driver yet	16:49
odin_	goes the kernel have the feature to detect the CPUID on IA32, sure "cat /proc/cpuinfo" and write a script	16:49
th3hate	you'll update em in next release?	16:49
thiago	odin_: the kernel detects features, definitely	16:49
_daniel_	GAN900: don't know :P	16:49
thiago	the question is whether the kernel has a feature to abort loading if it doesn't detect a feature	16:50
odin_	that is not a kernel feature but a dynamic-linker feature	16:50
lbt	_daniel_: O2 Joggler probably	16:50
_daniel_	GAN900: meego is pretty interesting stuff and I wanted to know how much should I spent in order to start playing with it	16:50
odin_	its not that useful for aborting the kernel running from the kernel itself, that would then be the bootloaders responsibility to check such things	16:50
pinheiro	so any talk about the design side of things at the meego conference?	16:50
th3hate	is it possible to partition mmc and put meego + nitdroid on each partition?	16:50
thiago	dynamic linker for refusing to load apps, yes	16:50
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odin_	this is more a QA and Support improvement anyhow	16:51
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odin_	again to reiterate there is no objection with the goal to provide optimized code for the best experience, this is a worthy goal, some thought towards inter-operability with desktop linux is what is missing	16:52
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thiago	odin_: it just happens that this is an x86 processor	16:57
thiago	do you install ARM or MIPS binaries on your desktop Linux?	16:57
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odin_	to actually use, nope.. the last MIPS I has was an SGI Indy some 8 to 10 years ago	16:58
smoku	How do I apply for access to Community OBS?	16:58
sivang	so, I checked the bios, there was no options to disable or enable VT, and in VirtualBox it is reported to be working.	16:58
sivang	still I get 'kvm: disabled by bios'	16:58
sivang	error	16:58
sivang	anybody have an idea? (this is when trying to follow this: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU	16:59
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odin_	did you power off your PC after changing the BIOS ?	17:00
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smoku	sivang, are you sure your mobo supports virtualization?	17:01
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lbt	smoku: ask me.... but we're transitioning at the moment so no strong need for more beta testers... unless you're an OBS expert and can spare a chunk of time/commitment?	17:01
thiago	odin_: my point is: you shouldn't be installing those binaries to your desktop Linux	17:01
smoku	lbt: i would like to start packaging hildon (and fremantle ui) for meego	17:02
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lbt	smoku: good enough	17:02
smoku	lbt: carsten suggested I should use community OBS	17:02
lbt	see /msg	17:03
odin_	thiago, well binaries that should be kept seperate really should use unique dynamic-linker paths, then there really would be no confusion, i..e. objdump -j .interp -s /bin/ls	17:03
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odin_	thiago, such as /lib/ld-linux-meego-arm-v7.so.2 nothing wrong with that	17:03
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thiago	odin_: there's no need to have a separate loader for each arch	17:04
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thiago	but I agree that the binary should encode the arch features it used	17:05
odin_	thiago, need ? its not a question of need, but interoperability clarity	17:05
thiago	no, it's not	17:05
thiago	you don't need a different interpreter	17:05
odin_	thiago, there is also no need to call it /lib/ld-linux.so.2	17:05
thiago	you need something like "file" or readelf that can tell you what features are needed	17:05
odin_	thiago, correct, its just a symlink but the point is system which do not support that ABI and distro won't have that path, do the binary will never load	17:05
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thiago	yeah, and then you get the infamous: /bin/ls: No such file or directory	17:06
thiago	error, yet the file exists	17:06
thiago	no, the interpreter must be a known constant for everyone	17:06
odin_	thiago, the interoperability goal would be to not have a binary that should not be running on the runtime system executing in the first place	17:06
thiago	arch-specific, surely	17:06
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thiago	your /lib/ld-linux.so.2 can detect the use of SSSE3 instructions and refuse to load	17:07
thiago	the same way that it refuses to load ARM binaries	17:07
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odin_	thiago, yes that would work too, but would not be compatible and interoperate with the intended consequence on other linux systems	17:08
thiago	I don't see your point	17:08
thiago	what is the intended consequence?	17:08
odin_	the interoperability goal would be to not have a binary that should not be running on the runtime system executing in the first place	17:08
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thiago	an SSSE3-using binary will not run on a Pentium III, period	17:08
thiago	if the ELF header contains a note "this requires ssse3", the loader won't load it	17:09
odin_	well 99.9% would until it might hit code that did SSSE3	17:09
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CosmoHill	feck yeah \o/	17:09
* CosmoHill dances around		17:09
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odin_	what is the note in the ELF header you speak of ? this is a proposed solution that I indicated to GCC list, so sure you are quoting my own solution back at me now in your argument ?	17:10
mikeleib	?	17:10
thiago	no	17:12
thiago	this is used in both ARM and IA-64	17:12
* thiago will find the Intel document that describes it for IA-64		17:12
odin_	the point about that solution is it would address current and future advances, but will take a few years to integrate (since thats the turn around time)	17:12
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odin_	IA-64 is actually Itanium	17:12
thiago	I know	17:13
* thiago thinks the Intel engineers working on Itanium had too much time on their hands		17:13
* mikeleib wonders why CosmoHill dances		17:13
CosmoHill	mikeleib: I booted grub2 over PXE	17:13
mikeleib	a hacky challenge worthy of a boogy	17:13
TSCHAKeee	thiago: itanium was literally design by committee gone way way way way way amok	17:13
CosmoHill	mikeleib: this is a milestone for me	17:14
CosmoHill	since I will now use this on my cluster	17:14
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thiago	TSCHAKeee: it's got the best assembly	17:14
TSCHAKeee	fusing tech by several companies over almost a 15 year period is bound to cause some weird things	17:14
odin_	yes design by committee can be a problem with corporatism	17:14
* CosmoHill would like some IA-64 stuff to play around with		17:15
TSCHAKeee	thiago: i agree, the native 64-bit code is fantastic.. it's the ia-32 emulation that reaaaaaaallly blows on it.	17:15
thiago	odin_: http://download.intel.com/design/Itanium/Downloads/245370.pdf section 4.2.4	17:15
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thiago	TSCHAKeee: I thought the IA-32 emulation was removed from the chip in the latest Itanium chips	17:15
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TSCHAKeee	really? wow. okay :)	17:16
TSCHAKeee	i hadn't dealt with itanium since 2005.	17:16
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odin_	thanks for the ABI link, but this obviously doesn't deal with IA-32	17:17
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thiago	odin_: ARM equivalent: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/com.arm.doc.ihi0044d/IHI0044D_aaelf.pdf section 4.4.6	17:18
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thiago	odin_: e.g., diff between the assembly generated by arm-none-linux-gnueabi with and without -mfloat-abi=softfp: + .eabi_attribute 27, 3	17:21
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thiago	between -mfloat-abi=softfp and -mfloat-abi=hard: + .eabi_attribute 28, 1	17:21
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Pforce	so where should i ask help for qemu not showing ui on meego handheld sdk	17:26
Pforce	i see the troubleshooting has this, and solution is unknown	17:26
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Pforce	i have all the demands met that http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_Enabling_QEMU this page gives me	17:26
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Pforce	but this OpenGL renderer string: GeForce GTS 250/PCI/SSE2	17:27
Pforce	seems good output for that should be MESA DRI... something	17:27
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odin_	thiago, I think you/someone hinted the ARM ABI changes the way floating data is passed across call boundaries, like calling "pow()" in libm ? I'm sure its in the PDF which I have saved for later when I experiment	17:28
* CosmoHill stops working and starts writing		17:28
thiago	I don't think it's this PDF	17:28
thiago	search for "ARM ABI" and look at the other PDFs	17:29
mikeleib	RTPCS?	17:29
thiago	huh?	17:29
odin_	thiago, the issue with "/bin/ls: No such file or directory" could be addresses with a "fall-back interpreter" this would be a /proc/sys/* in the kernel, which if the ELF .interp is not found on the system but the path of the global kernel variable is found, it would be loaded	17:29
thiago	http://www.arm.com/products/DevTools/ABI.html	17:30
mikeleib	rather arm thumb procedure call standard	17:30
mikeleib	atpcs, I mean	17:30
thiago	direct PDF: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/com.arm.doc.ihi0042d/IHI0042D_aapcs.pdf	17:30
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odin_	thiago, this way the fallback interpretor can be compiled to be most compatible, like with arm1 or arm5 and will diagnose the problem providing a more meaningful error, by comparing runtime platform installed against the binary requirements	17:31
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thiago	section 5.5 explains how to pass parameters	17:32
thiago	float-abi=soft or float-abi=softfp are exactly those	17:32
thiago	float-abi=hard is 5.5 plus 6	17:32
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GordonS	anyone have any idea what I might need to install to get the "sensors" module of Mobility built? Just installing "sensorsd" doesn't seem to do it.	17:33
thiago	mikeleib: AAPCS	17:34
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* mikeleib notes		17:36
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thiago	at least we got pass-in-registers by default on x86-64	17:37
thiago	but we should have used registers in an order that is at least easy to remember	17:37
GordonS	"if you're doing assembly, you should just know!" :-P	17:39
thiago	ARM: r0, r1, r2, r3	17:39
thiago	IA-64: out0, out1, out2, out3, ..., out7	17:39
thiago	x86-64: rdi, rsi, rdx, rcx, r8, r9	17:39
GordonS	true enough, ARM assembler just made sense to me	17:40
GordonS	but x86 is just... er.	17:40
TSCHAKeee	we got our compatibility with x86-64	17:40
GordonS	not looked at x86-64 yet.	17:40
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TSCHAKeee	but fucking hell, at the cost of decades of legacy bullshit	17:40
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thiago	if the older registers had been renamed according to their encoding in instructions, the order would be:	17:40
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GordonS	"a 64-bit rework of a 32-bit upgrade of a 16-bit processor modeled after..."	17:41
thiago	r7, r6, r3, r2, r8, r9	17:41
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TSCHAKeee	*facepalm8	17:41
thiago	why couldn't we use rax (r0), rbx (r1), rcx (r2), rdx (r3) at least?	17:42
thiago	move the base pointer from rbx to rsi (r6) or rdi (r7)	17:42
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sivang	smoku: how does one makes sure?	17:44
thiago	GordonS: yesterday, I was posting to the internal ML about the consequence of writing the code:	17:44
odin_	I don't think all operations are supported with all registers, rdi, rsi, rbp, rsp can all work with every offset based instruction permutation	17:44
thiago	QString &s = someString().append("foo"); s.append("bar");	17:44
thiago	odin_: you can do everything with any register on x86-64	17:45
thiago	GordonS: I was going to post assembly, but the x86 one was too complex to read	17:45
GordonS	thiago: to be fair, append() is one of the more confusing bits of QString	17:45
thiago	GordonS: the ARM one was very clear, but actually IA-64 won	17:45
sivang	odin_: there was nothing in the BIOS to change, so I just did a cold reboot	17:45
thiago	let me pastebin them	17:45
GordonS	this is where I like the Ruby convention of "append" versus "append!"	17:45
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odin_	sivang, if there is nothing in the BIOS, are your sure you have a VT capable CPU? can you "cat /proc/cpuinfo" into a pastebin for another to see ?	17:46
sivang	odin_: of course, I take it VirutalBox's reporting is not something to rely on?	17:46
odin_	sivang, I don't know much about VirtualBox specifically only VMWare and Xen, I hear VB is good	17:47
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* lcuk still equates VB to mean something else		17:47
GordonS	I've had good luck with VirtualBox	17:47
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GordonS	but it is awful to run Meego in :-S	17:48
odin_	sivang, well the point about reporting is that if it has been disabled in BIOS you will not see it, since once turned off (which is the default for all BIOS have have had), it requires a BIOS change and save, and often a cold reset to see it	17:48
GordonS	VMware is slow, but at least marginally usable	17:48
GordonS	because of the 3-D acceleration	17:48
GordonS	at least that is my best guess	17:48
Ford_Prefect	Anyone know why I'd see a "no space left on device" about 10 MB into writing the image for the N900 onto a microSD card?	17:48
thiago	GordonS: http://pastebin.com/2KXcZKBE	17:48
thiago	GordonS: which one is more readable?	17:48
smoku	sivang, mobo manual I guess	17:49
GordonS	thiago: well, I know squat about IA-64 assembly...	17:49
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thiago	it should be readable	17:49
thiago	especially because I compiled with -mno-pic and -mregister-names	17:49
GordonS	but, I would really have to say ARM	17:50
thiago	(the other two aren't PIC, so it was only fair)	17:50
GordonS	though I can kinda read the x86, after working with DJGPP for so long	17:50
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Ford_Prefect	(this is an 8 GB card, so space should not be a problem)	17:50
thiago	the fact that the compiler inserted those ;; makes the code sequence even more readable	17:50
GordonS	indeed	17:50
thiago	the compiler inserted nops and instruction templates though, which aren't necessary for the code flow, so I removed them	17:51
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* thiago finds it nice that the x86 gcc managed to save the address of the QString temporary in a register, but the ARM and IA-64 gccs didn't		17:52
thiago	wait, the ARM one did (r4)	17:53
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thiago	I still get confused sometimes by the src, dst convention of the AT&T syntax	17:55
thiago	hmm... how will that syntax do the new AVX (3- and 4-operand) instructions?	17:55
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sivang	odin_: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/248908/	17:56
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odin_	sivang, according to Wikipedia X86_virtualization, you need a Core 2 Quad Q8400 or better for Intel VT-x support, search google for "intel cpu finder Q8300" to see the support	18:00
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odin_	intel have a habbit or doing that, knocking a few features off the lower end chips in the same series, most annoying when you want to understand it in terms of slow to faster for the Q8x00 series	18:02
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odin_	another thing or course, is check your BIOS doesn't have an update, i.e. the stepping you have might have support but your BIOS being released before it does not know about it or something like that	18:03
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odin_	borderline, take top hit for "intel cpu finder q8300" and then click left side "Ordering / S Specs / Steppings" and you can see some one SPEC Code does and one SPEC Code does not	18:10
sivang	odin_: ah okay, bad, does the sdk run on AMD?	18:10
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odin_	sivang, sorry don't know, all Intel here, but with AMD GPUs	18:11
sivang	odin_: ok, thanks.	18:12
sivang	I guess virtual box does something else or does nto support GL for that matter on this setup	18:13
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smyows	850Mhz is safe overclock to n900?	18:30
Phazorx	any of you guys happened to know where can i get dmidecode compatible with meego?	18:31
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abhijeet	hi guys	18:58
abhijeet	i want to run the meego img using the qemu on opensuse	18:58
abhijeet	there is no qemu-gl available on open suse...	18:58
abhijeet	can anyone tell me how can run the qemu emulation on opensuse	18:58
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abhijeet	there is only qemu package present at the opensuse repository and it is not working	18:59
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pavlix	abhijeet: I'm a meego newbie, but I guess only modified qemu works for meego	19:04
abhijeet	pavlix, have u tried this on opensuse	19:05
w00t_	http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_Building_QEMU_Tools looks relevant	19:05
pavlix	abhijeet: it should be the same just anywhere	19:07
pavlix	w	19:07
w00t_	well, no	19:07
pavlix	w00t_: the wiki search gives about 5-6 likely relevant pages, it's a total mess	19:08
abhijeet	w00t_, that's difficult process :(	19:08
w00t_	looking at that, it implies that qemu (and other bits) need to be patched	19:08
pavlix	maybe http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Emulator_QEMU	19:08
w00t_	pavlix: it's new, so yes, it's going to be a bit turbulent right now	19:08
w00t_	pavlix: might be worth mailing -dev to talk about how to structure it better though	19:08
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pavlix	w00t_: it was always hard for me to follow mailing lists :)	19:09
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w00t_	pavlix: my advice: get a mail client that supports killing threads	19:09
GordonS	Does anyone have any idea why libmeegotouch's configure script keeps finding /usr/include/qt4 instead of the include path from qmake or QTDIR?	19:09
w00t_	anything that doesn't interest you, kill it, and you don't see it again unless you search for it ;)	19:10
pavlix	w00t_: thanks, I'll try	19:10
GordonS	"which qmake" returns /opt/qt/4.8.0/bin/qmake as it should	19:10
GordonS	and QTDIR is /opt/qt/4.8.0	19:10
abhijeet	w00t_, wow... i ran the meego handset version using xephyrn and it worked on my ati drivers.	19:10
abhijeet	w00t_, but it looks so huge..	19:10
w00t_	abhijeet: huge how?	19:10
abhijeet	w00t_, 9" * 5 "	19:11
pavlix	abhijeet: I was going to try qemu too, but then I got a meego netbook for development	19:11
abhijeet	pavlix, which os are u runing	19:12
abhijeet	w00t_, " means inch	19:12
w00t_	abhijeet: heh :) cool	19:12
abhijeet	w00t_, is that correct size of the windows?	19:12
w00t_	abhijeet: it works on resolution, so probably, yes	19:12
abhijeet	w00t_, ok...	19:13
w00t_	abhijeet: should be 8xx x 4xx pixels iirc (I forget the exact number)	19:13
GordonS	this is driving me nuts, I can only build the thing by manually modifying a bunch of Makefiles	19:13
pavlix	abhijeet: Fedora for most of my other testing, meego on the dev netbook for meego development, some Debian and CentOS servers, OpenWRT on router :) is this an answer to your question?	19:13
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w00t_	GordonS: I guess take a look at what their configure is running..	19:13
GordonS	that's what I'm doing, it's just a slow process :-P	19:14
abhijeet	pavlix, then i think do not have any issue running meego	19:14
abhijeet	pavlix, on suse qemu-gl is missing and i have to build it run it in qemu..	19:14
pavlix	abhijeet: I haven't tried on any other than the netbook with complete meego system... on Fedora, I would most probably have to either emulate, or at least use chroot+xephyr (haven't tried, yet)	19:15
abhijeet	pavlix, ok	19:15
pavlix	abhijeet: I don't have qemu-gl on Fedora either	19:16
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abhijeet	but it is mentioned at the meego wiki	19:16
abhijeet	pavlix, check this: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_SDK_with_QEMU	19:16
pavlix	abhijeet: it's downloadable directly from meego	19:16
w00t_	qemu-gl isn't part of qemu	19:16
pavlix	w00t_: is it going to be?	19:17
w00t_	from what I can gather from searching, it was a patch to qemu from some years ago implementing gl, which it looks like meego have picked up on and improved(?)	19:17
abhijeet	ok	19:17
w00t_	i don't know any of this for sure, just what i've come across from searching	19:17
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lbt	w00t_: can you help me do irc clever stuff in #obs	19:17
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pavlix	ah, well, it seems one can directly install downloaded rpms with yum with dependencies	19:20
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aaq	can i ask a question?	19:21
CosmoHill	1?	19:22
aaq	or are you all angry internet web people?	19:22
CosmoHill	oh wait my bot isn't in here	19:22
CosmoHill	I'm not	19:22
leinir	INTERNIET RAEG!!!111eleventy ;)	19:22
CosmoHill	infact I'm very happy wit what I've done today	19:22
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aaq	can i instal from "inside" live cd?	19:23
kkris1	is there a workaround to get meego running on a nvidia chip?	19:23
Ford_Prefect	More N900 questions - (a) why might the backlight not work and (b) how do I reboot? :)	19:24
CosmoHill	aaq: on the meego live image I've found that init 3 is command line, init 4 is the installer and init 5 is the gui / liveimg	19:24
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CosmoHill	kkris1: on the forums there is a post about using the meego SDK on an nvidia computer	19:25
kkris	ok, will have look	19:25
aaq	so i cant instal when i am using live cd like ubuntu and others?	19:25
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Ford_Prefect	Answer to (b) was "pull out the battery" \o/	19:28
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pavlix	aaq: if cosmohill is correct, it's as easy as rebooting into installation (or changing the runlevel, which is not that different)	19:29
aaq	well i can only run it from live cd when i trying to instal it just hangs.	19:30
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CosmoHill	aaq: what processor do you have?	19:31
GordonS	kkris: pretty please post that link when you get there??	19:31
CosmoHill	oh wait, you can boot the liveimg but not the installer?	19:32
kkris	i can get x running, but not the meego interface	19:32
CosmoHill	kkris: same	19:32
kkris	with the normal installimage	19:32
aaq	a old ee pc	19:32
CosmoHill	aaq: does it have an intel atom processor?	19:33
aaq	hope so	19:33
CosmoHill	cat /proc/cpuinfo \| grep ssse3	19:33
aaq	think its not supported	19:33
CosmoHill	if it returns nothing then meego doesn't support your device	19:34
pavlix	CosmoHill: when you're at it... is it at all possible to run meego on a non-ssse3 device?	19:34
aaq	asus ee701.. its not listed in site	19:34
CosmoHill	yes and no	19:35
CosmoHill	I've got meego running twm on a pentium 4	19:35
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CosmoHill	things like yum and zypper don't run as they require ssse3	19:35
Andy80	a very simple question: I'm "inside" MeeGo SDK with ssh, I've successfully compiled a Qt/C++ application. the MeeGo UI is up and running. If I try to start the application I get: cannot connect to X server. How do I have to start it?	19:35
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aaq	am i stupid to think it wil work when it is running from live cd?	19:36
w00t_	Andy80: how did you launch xephyr?	19:36
CosmoHill	Andy80: check your DISPLAY variable	19:36
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w00t_	(good to see you're making progress btw)	19:36
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pavlix	aaq: you are probably not stupid	19:36
CosmoHill	aaq: do you have the GUI and everything?	19:36
aaq	yes	19:36
CosmoHill	hmm	19:36
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pavlix	CosmoHill: erm... upstream yum doesn't need ssse3 at all	19:36
Andy80	w00t_: I'm running SDK using QEMU not Xephyr	19:36
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CosmoHill	pavlix: it needs something my pentium processor doesn't support	19:37
w00t_	Andy80: ah, right :P forgot.. in that case I don't know the exact solution, but you'll probably need to export DISPLAY=:something, where something is the number X is on	19:37
Andy80	let's try export DISPLAY=:2	19:37
pavlix	CosmoHill: a recompile wouldn't fix it?	19:37
Andy80	mmm.. not	19:38
Andy80	no	19:38
CosmoHill	aaq: I can run the installer but not the liveimg	19:38
CosmoHill	pavlix: sort of	19:38
w00t_	Andy80: are you ssh'd in btw?	19:38
w00t_	(to the SDK)	19:38
CosmoHill	yes it would fix it but I'd really need to recompile the whole of meego for pentium4	19:38
CosmoHill	Andy80: if you are ssh'd in, did you enable X11 forwarding?	19:39
Andy80	w00t_: yes... I'm into the ssh session	19:39
pavlix	CosmoHill: after complete recompilation, everything should work, right?	19:39
w00t_	Andy80: try :0	19:39
CosmoHill	in theory	19:39
Andy80	w00t_, CosmoHill: I try to start my app from inside the ssh session, of course: meego@[meego-handset-sdk]::~/lastgo_meego/LastGo$ ./LastGo	19:40
Andy80	not from my linux machine..	19:40
w00t_	Andy80: yes, I know	19:40
w00t_	Andy80: try :0	19:40
pavlix	CosmoHill: thanks, this was almost the answer I wanted to get ;)	19:40
CosmoHill	pavlix: I want to give it a go some time	19:40
Andy80	w00t_: :0 is the way!!!! :D the only problem... starting my application result in a black screen only :\ no error at all... :(	19:41
w00t_	Andy80: kill mdecorator	19:41
w00t_	if that still has problems, kill mcompositor	19:41
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pavlix	CosmoHill: me too, but now there's rather time for paid work :D	19:41
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Andy80	w00t_: mmm... killing mdecorator result in MeeGo UI not responding anymore...	19:42
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w00t_	Andy80: try mcompositor (and yes, it will cause problems to use the UI normally, since you're killing bits of it - problem is, those bits also cause problems with normal Qt apps atm)	19:43
Andy80	w00t_: ah ok... it reponds now, but the problem is still there. I'll try to kill the other process too, wait...	19:43
Andy80	w00t_: what you mean with "normal Qt apps" ? Qt is Qt :P I re-compiled the application and I expect it to run without any change ;)	19:44
w00t_	Andy80: libmeegotouch apps are not normal Qt apps :-)	19:44
Andy80	w00t_: btw.... killing mcompositor makes the UI to restart.... so I get the same black screen launching my app	19:45
w00t_	hmph	19:45
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CosmoHill	pavlix: right about now I should be chilling out as much as possible before my final year	19:45
w00t_	Stskeeps: ^^^ have you had to get around this yet? I guess there's something autostarting stuff	19:45
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CosmoHill	instead I've been told there are many problems with the uni cluster so they want mine to be finished soon	19:46
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pavlix	CosmoHill: nice	19:47
Andy80	w00t_: anyway.... if you're telling me that MeeGo applications have to use libmeegotouch explicitly... since it's not part of Nokia SDK I suppose it's a bit premature trying to port my application to MeeGo...	19:47
w00t_	they don't	19:47
w00t_	you under no circumstances _have_ to use it	19:47
* CosmoHill shakes fist at Windows 2008 and it;'s ability to BSOD on an incorrect BIOS clock		19:48
w00t_	it is just there if you want to (for whatever reason)	19:48
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* w00t_ mails to meego-dev about it		19:50
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_BuBU	Hi	19:54
aaq	it just hangs on installing bootloader	19:54
_BuBU	another device added to the list of MeeGO supported device (with GMA500): http://www.openaos.org/	19:55
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pavlix	I was too curious... I'm trying the qemugl thing	19:57
pavlix	but I ended up with black screen with blinking cursor	19:58
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pavlix	or, more exactly it's after some time with white screen	19:59
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aaq	when can i install meego on my nexus?	20:04
aaq	:)	20:04
thiago	do you have a flasher tool for that device?	20:05
TSCHAKeee	ppl aren't quite grasping the concept of closed hardware...	20:06
TSCHAKeee	;)	20:06
GordonS	TSCHAKeee: there is no such thing, only hardware you haven't figured out how to open yet :-P	20:07
GordonS	(yes, I know what you mean) :)	20:07
TSCHAKeee	heheh	20:07
TSCHAKeee	spoken like a man with a crowbar	20:07
thiago	"there's no such thing as A. There's only stuff that's not !A."	20:08
GordonS	or a shaped charge :)	20:08
GordonS	indeed... and it is usually impossible to prove the non-existence of something >:->	20:08
* thiago found the Aavas pretty closed		20:08
thiago	I bricked two of them	20:08
GordonS	gaah, don't tell me that... that's one of our primary dev platforms >:S	20:09
thiago	I'm missing a flasher tool for it	20:09
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thiago	Aug 11 19:10:52 lothlorien kernel: usb 2-5: New USB device found, idVendor=8086, idProduct=e003	20:11
* TSCHAKeee has a CDK on pre-order.. thanks for scaring me		20:11
thiago	Aug 11 19:10:52 lothlorien kernel: usb 2-5: Product: MOORESTOWN	20:11
TSCHAKeee	:P :)	20:11
TSCHAKeee	openmoko allll over again	20:11
TSCHAKeee	:P	20:11
csd	that reminds of a question I had: will Meego support/request/require any sort of bootloader, or will that be a HW supplier decision?	20:12
TSCHAKeee	that's a vendor thing	20:12
thiago	it might be that one of the aavas isn't bricked, but the batteries are just drained	20:12
Phazorx	silly question	20:13
dm8tbr	thiago: I thought they had a bootloader that gives you a cdc-acm console?	20:13
Phazorx	how do i switch consoles in meego?	20:13
thiago	dm8tbr: they do	20:13
Phazorx	i mean what would nowrmaly work with alt+F1 ... F8	20:13
CosmoHill	Phazorx: alt + F# for command line	20:13
thiago	dm8tbr: but not if you put it in recovery mode	20:13
CosmoHill	ctrl + alt + F# with X running	20:13
thiago	dm8tbr: that's what I did, now I can't get it out of that	20:13
dm8tbr	thiago: how unfortunate	20:13
Phazorx	CosmoHill: thanks	20:14
thiago	the other device died while I was transmitting stuff to it via USB	20:14
csd	TSCHAKeee: thanks. so that means that upgrading/reinstalling will also be a vendor thing? Does the UX have an "upgrade" something or other and then the vendor plugs in below it, or will even the UI aspect be up to vendors?	20:14
thiago	it opens a console on ttyACM0 and a generic on ttyACM1	20:14
thiago	dd'ed from the second to the flash	20:14
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GordonS	Does anyone have any idea why libmeegotouch's configure script keeps finding /usr/include/qt4 instead of the include path from qmake or QTDIR?	20:15
TSCHAKeee	csd: there are reference pieces for all the parts you describe above, but as is reality, vendors can replace these at will...and most likely...will.	20:15
thiago	GordonS: QTDIR isn't used by anything	20:15
GordonS	sure, but I'm doing it as a super-double-extra-just-in-case, since nothing else has worked...	20:16
GordonS	I've even tried renaming the system's qmake and qmake-qt4	20:16
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GordonS	and regardless, the Makefiles for corelib, extensions, views, and settings reference /usr/include/qt4	20:16
thiago	GordonS: it does use QTDIR...	20:17
GordonS	sure, but:	20:17
GordonS	which qmake -> /opt/qt/4.8.0/bin/qmake	20:17
GordonS	echo $QTDIR -> /opt/qt/4.8.0	20:17
thiago	is that a pristine build?	20:17
GordonS	yuup	20:17
GordonS	even tried an out-of-source build	20:17
thiago	git clean -f -d -x	20:18
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GordonS	trying again...	20:19
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GordonS	hmm, suppose I should check Qt itself...	20:19
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GordonS	I've seen that happen before too	20:19
GordonS	Qt itself is clean :)	20:20
GordonS	no dice, still references /usr/include/qt4	20:20
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pavlix	is it possible to use qemugl without kvm?	20:21
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GordonS	hmm, that's worrisome: "pkg-config --exists QtDBus"	20:21
GordonS	in configure	20:21
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w00t_	that is purely for testing for dependencies, iirc	20:22
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csd	TSCHAKeee: thanks	20:25
GordonS	even doesn't work with PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/opt/qt/4.8.0/lib/pkgconfig	20:25
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TSCHAKeee	yikes, handset ux takes longer to boot up than fremantle...	20:31
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* GordonS is confused as hell		20:31
timeless_mbp	TSCHAKeee: wait a second	20:32
timeless_mbp	something that is not optimized takes longer than a shipping product?	20:32
timeless_mbp	that's unbelievable!	20:32
TSCHAKeee	heheheh	20:32
TSCHAKeee	;)	20:32
timeless_mbp	how dare someone make an initial public release without first making it the fastest product in the world?!	20:32
TSCHAKeee	does maemo do fast init tricks like swapping in a frozen ram image	20:33
TSCHAKeee	?	20:33
timeless_mbp	not that trick	20:33
timeless_mbp	myself and a colleague suspect that it wouldn't really help much	20:34
w00t_	probably depends where it's swapped to as well	20:34
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GordonS	AHA! Gotcha!	20:36
timeless_mbp	well, the big risk w/ hibernation is that the data isn't in sync	20:36
timeless_mbp	if it's out of sync, you're in trouble :)	20:36
GordonS	pkg-config --cflags contextsubscriber-1.0 -> -DQT_SHARED -I/usr/local/include/contextsubscriber -I/usr/include/qt4 -I/usr/include/qt4/QtDBus -I/usr/include/qt4/QtXml -I/usr/include/qt4/QtCore	20:36
GordonS	ratchin' frickin' @%*#@%!	20:36
GordonS	okay, so I'm out-obscured on qmake now. Is there any way to override what PKGCONFIG does?	20:39
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qgil	Stskeeps: ping	20:42
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Stskeeps	qgil: pong	20:43
qgil	ref MeeGo slow in the N900, did someone say that it is currently compiled for ARMv5 and it will be much faster when a bug impeding compilation for ARMv7 is fixed?	20:44
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Stskeeps	qgil: there's multiple factors: armv7 helps a long way, the other we are investigating what goes on with with bootchart and such	20:45
Stskeeps	qgil: as well as updating the graphics drivers	20:45
qgil	you (or someone) might want to explain about this somewhere, since it is the first reaction of people using the image or watching the video	20:45
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qgil	... or invest the time fixing these problems and show another video with MeeGo running faster in the N900 ;)	20:46
Stskeeps	qgil: agreed - got any suggestions on where to engage those people?	20:46
qgil	your blog with a meego tag aggregated to meego.com? :)	20:47
Stskeeps	i guess we could make a team blog for this purpose	20:47
qgil	good guess	20:47
Stskeeps	i'll talk to harri about this tomorrow	20:47
* Jaffa 'll put it in MWKN too if you embed the YouTube video :)		20:47
qgil	also, anybody interested in multi boot for N900: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5136	20:48
Jaffa	Cos then it can act as both	20:48
qgil	check/vote :)	20:48
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Stskeeps	qgil: there actually exists a community solution for the multiboot problem. right now we do flasher 'load' as it doesn't damage maemo5	20:49
Jaffa	I thought multiboot for N900 was done?	20:49
Stskeeps	qgil: i'll comment on the various solutions available tomorrow	20:49
Jaffa	Ah, right.	20:49
qgil	at least not visible in the documentation available	20:49
Jaffa	I knew it whad been inthe last issue of MWKN :)	20:49
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Jaffa	qgil: http://www.mwkn.net/2010/32/devices.html#devices-4	20:50
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Stskeeps	qgil: we're a bit vary of replacing kernel from maemo as it might mean people are unable to make calls and such so that was why we stuck to the "you can multiboot with a pc nearby"	20:51
qgil	sure, I file the enhancement request and then you come up with the best solution(s) at any point of time	20:51
Stskeeps	yep	20:51
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qgil	Jaffa: I'm a potential MeeGo tester, I don't find info to enable multi boot in the docs, nor in that mwkn url	20:52
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Stskeeps	qgil: our usual guide is multiboot though, doesn't harm maemo5	20:53
qgil	If it exists and it's only a problem of lack of / unclear documentation, then great	20:54
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Stskeeps	:nod:	20:54
qgil	I can only say that I went through the process of installing MeeGo and I found that I wouldn't have done it if I would not have a spare N900	20:55
Stskeeps	any feedback is welcome :)	20:55
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lcuk	patches and thoughts on improving performance even more welcome ;)	20:57
lcuk	Stskeeps, if there was a way to just lower that screen resolution just a touch - enough to barely be noticable but to shave off 20% of the pixels it would give a boost. 640*480 is 4/5 the screen size and saves you 20% of the render time ..	20:59
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lcuk	and working out how to operate in alternative resolutions WILL be needed when you get other devices onboard	20:59
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Stskeeps	lcuk: libmeegotouch already runs in alternative resolutions	21:00
Stskeeps	check devices.conf sometime	21:01
lcuk	sure, but when I asked about this previously (wrt running on alternative Nokia handsets and the like) it was told the apps were designed at a fixed res	21:01
Stskeeps	qt should be more suitable for that, i guess	21:01
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lcuk	I know design layouts can be stretched that 20% easily without effecting visuals drastically - I know from 8x0 days that it would boost maximum frame rate then from ~25fps @ 800 to 33fps @640 .	21:03
lcuk	before changing drivers though, just alter the devices.conf to set it to 640 (it will render with a black bar I assume) but should be faster	21:04
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lcuk	qgil, i relaly like your twittersheep thing btw :D went looking at loads of them	21:04
lcuk	yours is so varied with all the followers you have!	21:05
kkris	are there any plans to support nvidia chips in the future?	21:05
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qgil	kkris: you need to ask NVidia whether they will open driver or provide support themselves - that or a vendor shipping MeeGo devices with Nvidia inside	21:10
Stskeeps	cool - http://www.openaos.org/ , meego netbook ux on archos 9 tablet	21:11
w00t_	Stskeeps: neat	21:11
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Stskeeps	if it runs netbook ux like that, it runs handset ux for sure	21:12
w00t_	qgil: what about noveau?	21:12
w00t_	it's supposedly fairly usable nowdays	21:12
Stskeeps	w00t_: i think noveau's biggest problem is that the ux they want with it most likely doesn't work with it..	21:13
w00t_	Stskeeps: hm?	21:13
Stskeeps	w00t_: 'Any 3-D functionality that might exist is still unsupported. Do not ask for instructions to try it'	21:13
w00t_	Stskeeps: that's not really up to date	21:13
w00t_	people have done all sorts of stuff with it in more recent times	21:13
CosmoHill	you know ctrl + w closes a tab on firefox	21:13
CosmoHill	is there an alternative if your left handed?	21:14
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w00t_	Stskeeps: e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLgtwEAgLo (and that was 2008) from a quick google	21:14
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Stskeeps	w00t_: texture from pixmap probably the usual reuqirement	21:16
Stskeeps	:P	21:16
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w00t_	Stskeeps: to put it another way: pretty sure it can run compiz/etc nowdays, so I can't see why it'd have problems	21:17
w00t_	and stop tempting me to _try_ this and see how I manage dammit	21:17
Stskeeps	w00t_: it's an itch, scratch it	21:17
Stskeeps	:P	21:17
w00t_	gnng :P	21:17
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vgrade	Stskeeps, log of the A9 bringup, http://wiki.meego.com/images/Archos_A9_instructions.txt	21:17
Stskeeps	vgrade: coool	21:18
Stskeeps	-o	21:18
Stskeeps	meego on more devices for sure, can only help if meego gets 'hip' to port instead of android	21:18
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Stskeeps	someone wanted to put it on their ipad or something, heh	21:18
vgrade	the sssseeeee33333 thing needs sorting so more peeps can try	21:19
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GAN900	I wish Intel weren't so anti-community with the hardware support	21:24
GAN900	We get that you don't want to "support" your competitors, but it's hurting you unaffiliated contributors.	21:25
RST38h	is it, really>	21:25
RST38h	What prevents you from compiling meego kernel with SSSE3 disabled?	21:26
w00t_	GAN900: i don't think it's quite like that really, I mean, look at the qemu-gl work	21:26
GAN900	Well, everytime the question comes up, some Intel employee jumps in to explain how Intel shouldn't have to support their competitor's products	21:26
GAN900	Which is entirely the wrong way to look at it	21:27
GAN900	and a harmful one.	21:27
auke	ah right lemme start working on a ppc port <gets head smacked by manager>	21:28
Stskeeps	GAN900: no, not really - people can step up to make the support	21:28
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Stskeeps	it is fair cos at any given feature, someone has to take the heavy lifting	21:28
RST38h	GAN: But why can;t you compile a meego kernel without Intel's participation?	21:28
RST38h	Isn't it just a matter of a #define?	21:28
auke	GAN900: it's not enough that we put all this time into an open source project, but we now have to do the work for other companies too?	21:28
Stskeeps	when a new feature enhancement is made, it's evaluated if intel has resources to do it, if nokia does, if anyone else wants to do it..	21:29
Stskeeps	etc	21:29
GAN900	Stskeeps, sure they can	21:29
Stskeeps	it's pretty much documented i believe	21:29
auke	GAN900: also, how do you expect intel to do all the QA for non-intel hardware?	21:29
GAN900	but the fact that the support isn't there lowers adoption rates and increases barriers to entry	21:29
GAN900	auke, completely the wrong perspective.	21:29
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auke	if you want to improve, why don't you go to <other companies> and get them to help?	21:30
GAN900	It's not about your competitors, it's about your contributors..	21:30
Stskeeps	contributors are more than welcome to do the work	21:30
Stskeeps	:P	21:30
auke	that's not true	21:30
auke	open source works in the market place because it equals the playing field	21:30
auke	that means, everyone has the same entry barriers etc	21:30
* RST38h still does not understand what prevents non-intel people from compiling kernel with ssse3 turned off		21:30
auke	and everyone needs to do their part to be part of it	21:30
auke	people who decide not to be part of it are left out	21:30
auke	we're not here to hobby around	21:31
CosmoHill	http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1802364	21:31
GAN900	More people using MeeGo benefits everybody	21:31
CosmoHill	you will read, and you will enjoy :3	21:31
auke	we want to create a healthy ecosystem going forward	21:31
RST38h	auke: So, what are you here for?	21:31
GAN900	Fewer people hurts everybody	21:31
Stskeeps	GAN900: ubuntu hasn't gotten to where it's at without people contributing	21:31
auke	RST38h: money, so I can feed my kids	21:32
GAN900	When the barriers to entry are high for no reason, you're shooting yourself in the foot	21:32
GAN900	Stskeeps, also missing the point.	21:32
auke	ah, but there's a good reason ssse3 is required	21:32
auke	otherwise atom would be very mediocre	21:32
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RST38h	auke: Honest answer.	21:32
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auke	RST38h: I've been working on open source since 1999 or so, now I just get paid for it	21:32
* RST38h doubts ssse3 makes any difference to atom's mediocrity		21:32
auke	huge difference	21:33
RST38h	in some very special cases, like video codec, maybe	21:33
RST38h	in general, no	21:33
Stskeeps	GAN900: no, i'm not missing the point really - resources are scarce and an itch is the best way to motivate people	21:33
auke	power savings, huge	21:33
RST38h	got numbers?	21:33
Stskeeps	just look at GMA500 support. people were upset it was missing, people went ahead and started making .ks'es so it worked!	21:33
auke	it's not just one aspect	21:33
Stskeeps	:P	21:33
auke	RST38h: can't post numbers without legal approval	21:33
CosmoHill	Atom is a low performance processor, so they should do everything they can to get the best performace out of it	21:33
RST38h	auke: I see.	21:34
RST38h	...so, one would think that if ssse3 gave such a wonderful advantage to Meego, the numbers would already be made public	21:34
GAN900	Stskeeps, not when the result is "Huh, well, that doesn't work. Guess I'll go play with Android."	21:34
RST38h	Meego-specific numbers of course, not the overall stuff	21:35
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auke	it's not just ssse3, also the atom gcc optimizations	21:35
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GAN900	auke, you MIGHT Have a point if MeeGo were in a position of market leverage	21:35
Jaffa	CosmoHill: Ctrl-W works perfectly for me (lef-handed) on my QWERTY keyboard...	21:35
GAN900	but it's not, so you're just losing contributors to things that do work--like Android.	21:35
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auke	we won't get hardware vendors interested in meego unless it outperforms <others>	21:35
RST38h	auke: The SSSE3 requireent is the major problem for the community, not the gcc enhancement	21:36
CosmoHill	Jaffa: i either take my hand off the mouse and press it or use my right hand and strech over the keyboard	21:36
Stskeeps	GAN900: except they aren't really able to adapt into the android ecosystems anyway	21:36
auke	so, meego needs to perform best on all hardware	21:36
auke	including atom, arm	21:36
RST38h	auke: amd?	21:36
Stskeeps	GAN900: find people who honestly get patches into android.	21:36
auke	ppc sparc w/e	21:36
slaine	auke, There where tests at the time of Moblin 2.1 that showed it performed poorly compared to other generic distros on the same hardware	21:36
RST38h	auke: older (pre-ssse3) intel cpus?	21:36
auke	RST38h: who's going to sell hardware like that?	21:36
vgrade	as i understand it its not just the kernel its all the packages which need rebuilding	21:37
RST38h	auke: Intel has sold quite a lot	21:37
auke	I don't think you get it. meego isn't for your junkers!	21:37
slaine	I don't think it gives an over all OS benefit. It certainly would help GL and video etc	21:37
RST38h	auke: And now, people cannot run Meego on this geniune Intel hardware	21:37
GAN900	But what do I know, clearly you guys have it all figured out.	21:37
RST38h	auke: Because somebody insists on using ssse3.	21:37
auke	repeat after me: meego isn't for junkers/clunkers	21:37
* RST38h sighs		21:37
auke	:)	21:37
slaine	RST38h: can't we make a 686 build with OBS ?	21:37
CosmoHill	meego isn't for...heeeeyyyy	21:38
Jaffa	CosmoHill: Ah, I use my mouse in my right hand so I can type with my left or write on paper	21:38
auke	CosmoHill: haha	21:38
RST38h	So, you are telling me my somewhat dated Merom is a clunker while your Atom-whatever is a shining pinnacle of performance?	21:38
* CosmoHill lifes off throw outs		21:38
CosmoHill	*lives	21:38
slaine	My Pentium-M 1.7 out performs my Atom 1.6 hands down	21:38
slaine	it's not a clunker	21:38
GAN900	Stskeeps, I got the smack down on that point at FLS last year.	21:38
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Stskeeps	slaine: as i continously say.. problem isn't the core os, it's what the apps are built for	21:38
RST38h	slaine: This is what I am trying to figure out: why don't people compile ssse3-free kernel without Intel's participation?	21:38
auke	RST38h: ideally, perhaps you have a point. but that point doesn't get companies interested in investing....	21:38
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: i have proof of this	21:38
CosmoHill	I have core meego running on a P4	21:39
RST38h	slaine: Same for my Centrino2, 3x Atom's performance	21:39
auke	sure I run meego on a core2duo, and an i7, and...	21:39
slaine	Stskeeps: I was talking about moblin 2.1 which wouldn't even boot on non ssse3 compat cpu's	21:39
Stskeeps	slaine: ah	21:39
Jaffa	RST38h: Perhaps - and this is a Devil's Advocate theory - because the people who defend Intel's right to not do it do it so vociferously, and so quickly, and are so senior in the MeeGo project they think it means MeeGo doesn't want to support that h/w.	21:40
Stskeeps	slaine: i still kinda think meego shouldn't either	21:40
slaine	it's performance was worse than most generic distros	21:40
slaine	which I was highly surprised at	21:40
RST38h	auke: So, this beautiful open source project that is so much based on the OSS, where "people" are supposed to work on it for "freedom", will shun the same people in favor of potential corporate investors?	21:40
CosmoHill	Jaffa: I'm right handed but I tend to use computers left handed depending on how much space is on the desk	21:40
auke	slaine: if meego underperforms any distro, file a bugzilla	21:40
Stskeeps	freedom doesn't come without work.	21:40
auke	slaine: I promise you it will get looked at	21:40
slaine	auke, I've not bothered testing	21:40
slaine	recently that is	21:41
slaine	I just use it :)	21:41
RST38h	auke: (and I am not even sure how one would persuade investors that they absolutely need ssse3)	21:41
slaine	I'm hoping to have some scope to look at this over the coming weeks	21:41
slaine	the generic 686 build that is	21:41
slaine	I've a legit requirement	21:41
auke	RST38h: we can't play fair, if you want us(intel) to invest a ton of money into infrastucture which is not going to benefit intel hardware	21:42
Stskeeps	Jaffa: i still maintain that if we have had requirements going from the start and the process shown, that each feature has to have people responsible for implementation and QA	21:42
vgrade	RST38h, noone said you coould not do it, just that intel would not	21:42
RST38h	Jaffa: What a devious suggestion! I think you should be ashamed to even think about this!	21:42
Stskeeps	Jaffa: then we'd be perceiving things in a lot different way	21:42
auke	RST38h: bottom line is that we try to be fair, but you can't just give intel all the blame	21:42
auke	without intel there wouldn't have been a meego	21:42
slaine	nod	21:42
slaine	here here	21:42
lcuk	auke? huh not benefit intel people - most of the worlds computers run intel hardware. brand confidence should mean something.	21:42
RST38h	it would be called Redhat and Maemo, indeed...	21:42
Stskeeps	if anyone is doubting that intel actually does try to play fair, we've been doing MeeGo ARM on what's essentially intel sponsored hardware.	21:43
Jaffa	Stskeeps: I think you're right - because others would be able to point to those same folk arguing in favour of h/w agnosticism (if the performance is there), but recognising the resource constraints on the current set of contributors.	21:43
slaine	I strongly believe the official releases should be targeted at the Atoms and optimized as much as possible to make that shine	21:43
CosmoHill	look at it from a consumers point of view, if you have a computer with meego on it, it would have been pre-installed by the manufactorer	21:43
lcuk	Stskeeps, meego arm - are you putting the netbook image onto n900?	21:43
Stskeeps	lcuk: meego arm is entire core plus others.	21:43
MeOnTheGo	hello, i am a neophyte in btrfs (meego actually). i wanted to know the developer's perspective towards having btrfs as default fs in meego	21:44
slaine	I'd just think that developers that could contribute are more likely to have a wider range of hardware to work on	21:44
CosmoHill	most of us are just annoyed we can't run meego on what we have because we're geeks and like new things	21:44
Stskeeps	Jaffa: have you seen the featuretracker btw?	21:44
lcuk	so I should be able to run the netbook image on an arm chipset?	21:44
slaine	So we should be able to make a 686 build using mic2 or something	21:44
Stskeeps	lcuk: we haven't built netbook on arm, i did at some point but i didn't want to bother fixing clutter.	21:44
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Ah, so we should be "grateful" that Intel lets us into this party. There's a perception that Nokia is the junior partner, y'know.	21:44
auke	I'm out for lunch, later folks :)	21:44
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Indeed, but with so much going on I've not been able to find time to find a bugbear and contribute.	21:44
MeOnTheGo	sir, i couldn't install netbook meego on vmware	21:44
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CosmoHill	why do I feel a meeting coming on	21:45
Stskeeps	Jaffa: no, just saying that it's sometimes unfair to say intel isn't trying to play fair.	21:45
vgrade	slaine, the point surely is that you can try and buld it for you junkers, you have the source, the OBS	21:46
Jaffa	Stskeeps: I'm not saying Intel isn't rrying t play fair - my theory was that some people might perceive Intel are actively defending their turf when defending the decision to focus resources where they're currently being focused.	21:46
Stskeeps	Jaffa: :nod:	21:46
Stskeeps	Jaffa: perceptions are always difficult. just look at tmo atm.	21:46
Stskeeps	:P	21:46
Stskeeps	Jaffa: http://bugs.meego.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=3209&hide_resolved=1	21:47
Stskeeps	each of these will have someone it's assigned to, and a QA contact.	21:47
slaine	vgrade: indeed, but the community OBS is only just coming onstream, it wasn't something planned from the beginning (icbw)	21:47
Stskeeps	if you want to have a feature roadmapped, provide those two	21:47
Stskeeps	:P	21:47
Jaffa	Stskeeps: I think I could go to every single one of the threads asking about non-SSSSSSSSSSE3 support and find very defensive messages about "why should Intel..." rather than "The MeeGo project aims to be hardware agnostic, however we currently don't have the hardware resources (OBS), QA mechanisms or staff to work on it. Patches and contributions wlecome."	21:48
Stskeeps	Jaffa: not a bad example	21:48
slaine	I tried and failed to build moblin 2.0 and 2.1 from source due to poor packing. Many others where in a similar boat	21:48
vgrade	im buliding on the maemo OBS at the moment, see lbt, so all the tools are there	21:48
slaine	I'll be trying again in the next week or so	21:48
Stskeeps	Jaffa: raise it with dawn?	21:48
CosmoHill	Jaffa: if it's so common the threads should just be delete and leave the orginal or an annoycement	21:48
slaine	vgrade: yes, I have an account too, just haven't had the time of late	21:48
Stskeeps	to point people in how things are supposed to be done and help perceptions	21:48
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GAN900	MeeGo people are certainly not helping MeeGo's perception.	21:50
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Yeah, I'll try and raise it with DawnFoster (damn, she's offline right now)	21:50
Jaffa	Is there a log for #meego I can link to? :)	21:51
Stskeeps	yes	21:51
Jaffa	Got it.	21:51
lcuk	did anybody have experience with the ubuntu moblin remix and what modifications were made to the moblin packages to get it running?	21:51
vgrade	sorry, to start that one over again, it was just to maybe spark a organised community non sssssssssseeeeeeeeee33333333 build	21:51
Jaffa	Ta mgedmin	21:51
Stskeeps	GAN900: technical people are usually horrible at communication.	21:51
slaine	vgrade: it's been a thorny subjects for a long time	21:51
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vgrade	so anyone want to get involved?	21:53
CosmoHill	sounds good	21:53
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Jaffa	auke: Nice use of topical maths/CS reference in dealing with reply-to munging :)	21:54
GAN900	Stskeeps, clearly.	21:54
lcuk	vgrade, whats needed - servers? time? planning? or just someone to add a switch to the generic obs?	21:54
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Stskeeps	just be considerate of meego community obs resources, a full rebuild is a bitch	21:55
Stskeeps	:P	21:55
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vgrade	lcuk, not entirely sure but all those things probably :)	21:55
slaine	vgrade: yes	21:56
slaine	as I mentioned before, I'd planned on starting something in the coming week or two	21:56
slaine	so if there's other interested then that'd be greayt	21:56
slaine	s/greayt/great/	21:56
infobot	slaine meant: so if there's other interested then that'd be great	21:56
slaine	lcuk, the other distro's just packed up the the mutter plugins and created gdm session to launch moblin desktop's	21:56
slaine	well, mutter-moblin plugin and the moblin-panel apps	21:56
slaine	thanks Stskeepz	21:56
lcuk	slaine, would the same patches work now - just with renamed packages	21:56
lcuk	they have to exist somewhere	21:56
slaine	no patches where needed	21:57
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* CosmoHill downloads a src.rpm and tries to compile		21:57
lcuk	there was a big announcement back end of last year from canonical and dell about it	21:57
lcuk	ahhh slaine, cool	21:57
lcuk	http://www.ubuntu.com/news/canonical-dell-deliver-ubuntu-moblin-remix	21:57
CosmoHill	I knew it wouldn't be that simple >.<	21:58
lcuk	CosmoHill, better than my attempt, it opened in notepad	21:58
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nacho	hey guys	21:58
nacho	do you know how am I suppose to play mp3s?	21:58
nacho	packagekit says that the mpeg plugin for gstreamer doesn't exists	21:58
nacho	and I could find anything with yum	21:58
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nacho	am I suppose to add any other source repository?	21:58
CosmoHill	lcuk: if it opened notepad on my headless linux server I'd be very confused	21:59
slaine	Fedora just made an rpm out of the source	21:59
slaine	Fedora will have a Meego spin for F14	21:59
slaine	The way the X session works on the netbook is, X -> mutter WM -> mutter-moblin plugin (toolbar and panel support)	21:59
lcuk	CosmoHill, :D	21:59
CosmoHill	looks like /usr/lib/rpm/macro has been customised	21:59
CosmoHill	(just a guess)	21:59
slaine	You then have moblin-panel-myzone, moblin-panel-blah run and they connect via dbus to mutter-moblin	21:59
slaine	On Moblin/Meego, uxlaunch starts X and triggers loading mutter and the plugin and panels	22:00
slaine	For an other distro, you just need to make a standard .desktop session file	22:00
slaine	that does the same	22:00
lcuk	cool	22:00
vgrade	ok guys I'll open a wiki page on non SSSSEEEE3 and make an announcment in a couple of days after I have done some research	22:00
slaine	cool	22:01
lcuk	^2	22:01
slaine	:)	22:01
CosmoHill	timeless_mbp: http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiver.html << you might like	22:01
CosmoHill	allows you to unpack src.rpm files	22:01
lcuk	nacho, dunno about the mp3 issue	22:01
w00t_	Stskeeps/others, re: communication..	22:01
lcuk	I would have thought it would be included though?	22:01
w00t_	it's kind of understandable why defensive attitudes crop up, though	22:02
nacho	I thought so	22:02
nacho	but I'm not able to play any mp3	22:02
w00t_	08/11@19:24:50 <GAN900> I wish Intel weren't so anti-community with the hardware support	22:02
nacho	also when I try to play it with totem packagekit is run and it is not able to find any plugin	22:02
Jaffa	w00t_: Chicken/egg?	22:02
GAN900	^	22:02
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GAN900	The responses were defensive fro' the offing.	22:03
Jaffa	w00t_: But it won't help, true.	22:03
slaine	nacho, you need to have the codec's for mp3 installed	22:03
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slaine	due to licensing issue, intel won't be able to ship them.	22:03
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lcuk	facepalm	22:04
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CosmoHill	hey guys	22:04
CosmoHill	i think it's possible to compile and install meego-rpm-config-1.2.3.src.rpm on our computers	22:04
CosmoHill	this would then setup RPM macros which in theory would allow us to compile other RPM packages	22:05
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slaine	?	22:05
lcuk	CosmoHill, Meego-From-Scratch? :D	22:05
slaine	You'd end up linking against local libs etc.	22:05
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Stskeeps	slaine: or anyone, for that sake..	22:06
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slaine	true	22:07
CosmoHill	slaine: hmm maybe, but at least it would compile	22:07
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slaine	What's the problem you're having CosmoHill ?	22:07
slaine	Are you wanting to package meego rpms on a non-meego os ?	22:07
CosmoHill	I'd like to be able to recompile the meego src.rpm files	22:07
slaine	You can only do that if you have the appropriate deps	22:08
Stskeeps	you know, there's not really anything stopping people from providing repo's with the right things	22:08
Stskeeps	:P	22:08
CosmoHill	or if you compile them in the right order :)	22:08
slaine	and the spec files for meego are for meego, not any other distro	22:08
CosmoHill	slaine: I build my distro from source	22:08
slaine	Cosmohill, I'd some scripts that handled doing the whole thing for moblin	22:08
slaine	I know	22:09
CosmoHill	so i could configure it like meego :)	22:09
slaine	wot lcuk said	22:09
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CosmoHill	:3	22:09
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Stskeeps	w00t_: people get defensive when being attacked over and over again	22:09
CosmoHill	that wasn't me >.>	22:09
w00t_	Stskeeps: yup, my point	22:09
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nacho	slaine, the problem is that such code doesn't exists	22:14
* lcuk goes watching England vs Hungary		22:14
CosmoHill	oh crap	22:14
CosmoHill	Redding are playing today	22:15
lbt	Jaffa, Stskeeps etc ... on the ssse3 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2010/08/are-intel-subverting-meegocom.html	22:15
lbt	vgrade: ^^^	22:15
lbt	and slaine auke	22:16
lbt	I'd appreciate editorial comments ... I think it's a bit strong in places :)	22:16
vgrade	what a coincidence :)	22:17
lcuk	lbt, reading whilst football on, Postition	22:17
lbt	vgrade: I started drafting 3 weeks ago... it's a bitch to write without being offensive	22:18
lbt	and I've been a tad busy :)	22:18
Jaffa	lbt: timely	22:18
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Stskeeps	lbt, i kinda think the 'central' obs situation follows same pattern as with features/requirements.. provide resources (people, donations, machines) and it's possible given that it doesn't conflict with other parts of roadmap	22:18
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lbt	I think I say something like that in the "Counters" section ...	22:19
Stskeeps	:nod:	22:19
RST38h	mhmmm	22:19
Stskeeps	having a feature requires you to take responsibility for it	22:20
lcuk	lbt, title and intro are the only "strong" bits, but its attention grabbing. as usual for you david, considered and spot on.	22:20
lbt	Stskeeps: that's a good point ...	22:20
lbt	I feel I say "them" too much :)	22:21
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Stskeeps	you can suggest a feature as a user, but someone has to take responsibility for implementation and QA (and other things needed)	22:21
Stskeeps	and commit to that feature to keep it working	22:21
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lbt	OTOH isn't that an essential part of the MeeGo offering to "the market"	22:21
Stskeeps	.. but that's just my sleepy view	22:21
lcuk	lbt, Stskeeps - go back 12 months and consider Mer on bigger machines. that is how meego should be.	22:22
lbt	Asking for an Athlon (or whatever, Nvidia?) build would be a problem.... but a "reference build"?	22:22
RST38h	lbt: so what is the problem? install an independent build system somewhere and rebuild the whole thing sans ssse3, no?	22:23
lbt	one that uses Mesa maybe?	22:23
Stskeeps	lcuk, having proper process and commitment is needed - i mean, we'll have the nice view of seeing how modern product processes works in the open	22:23
Stskeeps	and exactly why companies want support contracts ;)	22:23
lbt	RST38h: it's an option ... but I feel it would be more inclusive for MeeGo to support a broader base	22:23
lbt	clearly the community OBS can now do that	22:23
Stskeeps	lbt, it also bends back to if meego is a os for others to build on or a os for people to use..	22:24
Stskeeps	which is a hot topic, too	22:24
lbt	yes... "Is MeeGo a platform or a product" ?	22:24
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RST38h	lbt: I do think that the best way to solve these problems is to set up infrastructure completely independent from both Intel and Nokia	22:24
lbt	RST38h: the meego.com community one is pretty much that	22:25
Stskeeps	RST38h: who are you calling for a big obs farm to accomplish this?	22:25
Stskeeps	:P	22:25
RST38h	lbt: not really, it is owned by corpses	22:25
RST38h	lbt: even more so than maemo.org	22:25
lbt	well yes... and me and neils are running it	22:25
slaine	Moblin suffered heavily from the platform or product issue	22:25
slaine	did maemo ?	22:26
Stskeeps	slaine: it was a product	22:26
RST38h	Stskeeps: Isn't it possible to run obs on a locla machine, build the whole system, and make binaries available to everyone?	22:26
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Stskeeps	RST38h: sure, it just takes time and bandwidth	22:26
slaine	That's essentially what my make-moblin scripts did	22:26
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lbt	RST38h: and we have 3 16core machines with 6Tb of disk on OSU... but if you have a spare box...	22:26
* CosmoHill 's ears prick up		22:27
CosmoHill	super computers you say?	22:27
slaine	they're not being thrown out CosmoHill, so no, you can't have one for your lan	22:27
vgrade	:)	22:27
RST38h	lbt: neither you nor niels are intel employees, so why not build ssse3-free meego rather than complain?	22:27
lcuk	heh	22:27
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Stskeeps	slaine: i wonder if it's time to start that discussion again though	22:28
lbt	RST38h: because I want MeeGo to do the right thing	22:28
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RST38h	lbt: and that is...?	22:28
Stskeeps	slaine: it's quite simple really. is MeeGo a platform to build upon, or something for users (affects marketing, etc)	22:28
lbt	anyone on the OBS beta can import and build MeeGo	22:28
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lcuk	can they share it with the world though?	22:29
Stskeeps	slaine: downside is that platform hype sometimes originates from user perception..	22:29
lbt	RST38h: see the Proposal section :	22:29
lbt	Add a 'generic x86' target to the MeeGo.com build	22:29
lbt	architectures.	22:29
slaine	lbt, I think a generic x86 release is in the realm of the community though	22:29
slaine	I think Intel are right to pitch the Atom as entry level approach	22:29
lbt	I think MeeGo should support it	22:29
slaine	for their reference release	22:29
lbt	and the community should spin it to include ATI gfx	22:29
slaine	fair point	22:29
lbt	I would support a reference release using software rendering	22:30
slaine	Stskeeps: Moblin certainly had a split personality in that regards	22:30
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Stskeeps	slaine: dawn said she had noticed the same problem in meego	22:30
lcuk	lbt, depending on the specific x86 that may not even be noticable	22:31
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Stskeeps	slaine: like, the schizophrenic marketing	22:31
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slaine	I ran moblin 2.1 UI from Fedora and Ubuntu distro's on Celeron-M with 855GM graphics, was fine	22:31
slaine	Stskeeps: exactly	22:31
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slaine	One part of the organization that's dealing with ODM's is pitching it as a platform, the part dealing with OEM's is pitching it as product	22:32
slaine	Dell had their own tiered repo's for their moblin release for example	22:32
TSCHAKeee	yup	22:32
slaine	and that was the plan at the time	22:32
TSCHAKeee	which had working poulsbo stuff long before anyone else	22:33
TSCHAKeee	fsckers	22:33
TSCHAKeee	:P	22:33
lbt	slaine: another comment ... how many times have you seen "MeeGo is the community" ?	22:33
slaine	erm	22:33
TSCHAKeee	i see that comment said when it is convienient to say it.	22:33
lbt	;)	22:33
TSCHAKeee	that's the only way i can put it.	22:34
slaine	that's been used on a few projects in fairness	22:34
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TSCHAKeee	it's said when they want to rev us up	22:34
slaine	I guess it's all these things, as it's a tool and it depends on how you want to use the tool ???	22:34
lbt	I just don't have a problem using it to justify building generic x6 in the core	22:35
lbt	my 8 key is wonly	22:35
TSCHAKeee	not the only one	22:36
TSCHAKeee	:P	22:36
TSCHAKeee	:)	22:36
lbt	it's a microsoft keyboard	22:36
* lcuk hands lbt a bag of keys		22:36
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* lbt doesn't mind relegating MS to be a keyboard+mouse vendor...		22:37
lcuk	its good hardware :)	22:37
lcuk	normally	22:37
lcuk	unless you get one of those keyboards broken down the middle	22:37
lbt	4000	22:37
lcuk	its like buying pre-ripped jeans	22:38
lbt	yup	22:38
lbt	I tried bending an old one... didn't work... they ping off everywhere	22:38
lcuk	football is dull tonight	22:38
lbt	s/tonight//	22:38
lcuk	:D	22:38
lcuk	i've been a member of ##sports now since the WC and seen quite a few games, this one is deffo not great	22:39
vgrade	i feel as though events have taken over from my suggestion of a community effort for a non SSSSEEEE3 build but will open a wiki page anyway	22:40
vgrade	lbt, what heavy lifting do you need from people to do this on the new OBS	22:41
lbt	good question	22:41
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vgrade	ok, first section of the wiki sorted	22:41
lbt	probably finding a way to sync the projects and handle a way to spin on them	22:42
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slaine	Phoronix did some comparisons of the Moblin 2.1 and MeeGo 1.0 releases against other distros at the time,	22:42
slaine	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=chromium_moblin_benchmarks&num=1	22:42
slaine	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=meego_10_perf&num=1	22:42
Stskeeps	frankly? i believe it's a matter of editing prjconf, rebuild gcc, binutils, then everything.	22:42
Stskeeps	:P	22:42
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lcuk	++	22:43
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lcuk	Stskeeps, you often do ":P" to imply YMMV :D	22:43
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vgrade	if its that easy what was the last hours discussion about	22:43
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w00t_	vgrade: there is a reason the phrase "talk is cheap" exists	22:44
Stskeeps	vgrade: because the problem isn't the core, the problem is the apps.	22:44
vgrade	ah, ok	22:44
w00t_	Stskeeps: not really an issue yet	22:44
slaine	vgrade, you've basically scratched and old wound, we've been complaining about this since February in Meego and February 2009 in Moblin	22:44
vgrade	so thats the heavy liftinh	22:44
Stskeeps	w00t_: damage's already done, atom sdk exists	22:44
lcuk	Stskeeps, your twittersheep is awesome http://twittersheep.com/results.php?u=stskeeps	22:44
Stskeeps	slaine: at least all the prjconfs and info how to set up obs is there..	22:45
w00t_	Stskeeps: realistically, I still don't think it's a problem though	22:45
Stskeeps	(now)	22:45
slaine	lcuk: that's awesome	22:45
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slaine	Stskeeps: it was there for moblin2.1 too, it just didn't work, lol	22:46
lcuk	slaine, its great, it lets you see what sort of people are following your progress	22:46
Stskeeps	lcuk: it also shows what i'm about	22:46
Stskeeps	:P	22:46
slaine	mines not too bad actually	22:46
w00t_	http://twittersheep.com/results.php?u=w00teh <- haha.	22:46
w00t_	I have many, many adjectives	22:47
w00t_	('hippy'? wtf.)	22:47
slaine	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=meego_10_perf&num=1	22:47
slaine	crap	22:47
CosmoHill	young? rude? punk?	22:47
slaine	w00t_: we all knew it, dirty hippy	22:47
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slaine	http://twittersheep.com/results.php?u=slaine_	22:47
ScottishDuck	http://twittersheep.com/results.php?u=DuckTunes	22:48
w00t_	slaine: i'm tempted to combine words on that page to make proper descriptions	22:48
allandrick	evening	22:48
w00t_	e.g. "dirty open source hippy"	22:48
slaine	rofl	22:48
* lcuk likes http://twittersheep.com/results.php?u=lcuk		22:48
* slaine wipes tears from his eyes and tea from his screen		22:48
CosmoHill	noobmonkey?	22:48
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w00t_	:)	22:48
ScottishDuck	my last tweet was a particularily nice one	22:48
lcuk	what I have noticed after looking around LOTS of these is that there is little meego mentions in all the bios of people	22:49
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Stskeeps	lbt: on a sidenote, when is community OBS supposed to move out of beta?	22:49
w00t_	ScottishDuck: why are all your tweets duplicated	22:49
ScottishDuck	?	22:49
lcuk	so you would expect high profile meego folks to be watched by other high profile meego people etc	22:49
w00t_	http://twitter.com/DuckTunes	22:49
lbt	Stskeeps: when I finish it	22:49
ScottishDuck	I see no duplication	22:49
lbt	I'm doing an issues list with X-Fade	22:50
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Stskeeps	lbt: k	22:50
lbt	the maemo one is just running... the focus now is on the OSU big beast	22:50
Stskeeps	lbt: technical question, workers are in xen vms right?	22:50
Stskeeps	or kvm	22:50
lbt	xen	22:51
Stskeeps	k	22:51
w00t_	ScottishDuck: http://w00t.dereferenced.net/p/i/imgbin20100811-6082-6yncoc-0.jpg	22:51
timeless	isn't xen the tech that lost?	22:51
* lcuk saw lots and lots of big Nokia ones		22:51
lbt	no special reason other than I know xen better	22:51
lcuk	but not so many Intel ones	22:51
ScottishDuck	I don't have that	22:51
w00t_	weird	22:51
lbt	timeless: support the underdog	22:51
timeless	lbt: i have a box configured for xen	22:51
timeless	but even oracle dropped it	22:52
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w00t_	lbt: time to switch to emacs, then?	22:52
timeless	although i think they're favoring vbox	22:52
* w00t_ run run runs		22:52
timeless	which given that they own vbox makes sense	22:52
lbt	timeless: oracle dropped it..? that's unusual... they seem so ..... open...	22:52
allandrick	cough	22:52
thopiekar	vgrade: ping	22:53
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timeless	i thought they did	22:53
timeless	but right now i can't finda ref	22:53
w00t_	lbt: where are you? you must either be nearby or telling some serious untruth, my bullshit alarm just vibrated off my desk	22:53
w00t_	:-p	22:53
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allandrick	g'day - anyone played with Bluetooth on MeeGo yet?	22:54
* allandrick is trying it out now.		22:54
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* lbt takes Stskeeps' hint and goes to hack on the OBS some more		22:58
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CosmoHill	lbt and lcuk: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t9t6r/Frys_English_Delight_Series_3_The_Trial_of_Qwerty/	22:59
* allandrick can't seem to find the pin settings...		23:00
lcuk	CosmoHill, I cannot watch 2 tv programs and irc at same time :P	23:01
lcuk	and england football is on :P	23:01
CosmoHill	it's alright, it's ipplayer :)	23:01
Jaffa	CosmoHill: I heard that advertised on R4 on Monday. Is it good? If so, I'll download it for my flight home	23:01
CosmoHill	you have up to 7 days to watch it	23:01
Jaffa	It's also radio, isn't it?	23:01
CosmoHill	you can download?	23:01
* lcuk knows		23:01
* Jaffa has access to bbcredux.com		23:02
CosmoHill	dammi	23:02
CosmoHill	years 4 to 6 at school get taught to touch type	23:02
CosmoHill	s/touch//	23:02
infobot	CosmoHill meant: years 4 to 6 at school get taught to type	23:02
allandrick	aha	23:03
allandrick	I reckon my problems are the modules not loading.	23:03
allandrick	lsmod == empty.	23:03
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CosmoHill	Jaffa: i'm 5 mins in and it's very good so far	23:03
* allandrick scratches his head.		23:03
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th3hate	the n900's alpha unstable release is really slow and unreponsive, will it get better toward the beta?	23:06
lbt	"my dad explained why the keyboard was like that..... but to be honest I wasn't really listening" :D	23:06
CosmoHill	lbt: lol yeah	23:06
Jaffa	th3hate: Stskeeps says there are numerous performance enhancements in the works (improved drivers, better compile options, etc.)	23:06
Stskeeps	th3hate: it's a development image, what do you expect?	23:07
leinir	th3hate: Read your own statement, especially the part about "alpha", and then ponder on what the answer might be ;)	23:07
CosmoHill	"dirty mr qwerty" lol	23:07
th3hate	i expected a bit more from an alpha image.. we're really close to the beta :S	23:07
th3hate	beta = feature freeze	23:07
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CosmoHill	alpha = proof of concept?	23:08
th3hate	thats pre-alpha	23:08
lbt	th3hate: feel free to argue amonst yourself	23:08
CosmoHill	eureka = proof of concept?	23:08
th3hate	no problem anyway.. just hoping it would get better toward the beta	23:09
lbt	it will	23:09
th3hate	i bet	23:09
* allandrick reboots after symlinking the modules directory.		23:09
tyan_	about of slowness is the is it TI:s GFX driver open sourced in N900 on Meego? As far as iI know GFX is not open sourced oin N900 maybe thats why it is slow?	23:10
allandrick	oooh much better.	23:10
CosmoHill	lbt: I keep looking down at my keyboard when he talks about some parts	23:10
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lbt	you'll find some off typos as I now configure the OBS by tougvh typing	23:11
lcuk	how fast do omeled things refresh at?	23:11
lcuk	(or whatever the acronym is)	23:11
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lcuk	i can't type with that on, radio enforces listening o_O	23:12
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allandrick	wow the range on the bt dongle I got is like 6"	23:14
* allandrick boggles.		23:14
allandrick	no wonder it was so cheap !	23:14
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lbt	allandrick: use it as a proximity key	23:15
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allandrick	lol cheers I was hoping for handsfree audio but yeah, maybe it can start my car instead :P	23:16
Stskeeps	tyan_: no, that's not it, often, closed source drivers are faster :P	23:16
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allandrick	can't expect much from 3 quid tho I suppose...	23:16
vgrade	thopiekar,pong	23:16
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thopiekar	are there ready images on the net for meego+emgd?	23:17
tyan_	Stskeeps: hmm what I meant was that Meego beta seems slow cause the lack of real 3d driver?	23:18
thopiekar	the kickstarting thing doesn't work for me..	23:18
Stskeeps	tyan_: we're not at beta yet, it's alpha	23:18
lbt	CosmoHill: as all the keytops are wearing off I get to touch type more... if only I used more than 2 fingers	23:18
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: amoled? should be fast	23:18
Stskeeps	tyan_: slowness is actually other factors, like MMC access	23:18
CosmoHill	kid typing with one finger	23:18
CosmoHill	me: you can use both hands	23:19
CosmoHill	him: okay!	23:19
tyan_	Stskeeps: Is see but whats the propgress on GFX anytway?	23:19
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CosmoHill	kid types using one finger from each hand	23:19
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: actually like CRT	23:19
Stskeeps	tyan_: it's looking good. we need some things from DSS2 submitted to upstream and meego kernel, but i've had things working.	23:20
allandrick	thopiekar: not yet	23:20
Stskeeps	tyan_: i'm wondering if SGX can/should be overclocked.	23:20
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer, ahh so its not like e-ink which I was mixing it up with, but I did find out that showing a mostly black screen would consume much less power - thats a nice datapoint.	23:22
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lcuk	are there any amoled devices which could be capable of hosting meego?	23:22
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ScottishDuck	Galaxy S could be hacked	23:23
* lcuk was playing in phone store at weekend with some amazing looking super slick devices		23:23
ScottishDuck	Although I heard it has a closed bootloader	23:23
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: (am)oled is basically same principle like plasma, when it comes to refresh rate and power consumption vs screen content	23:23
lcuk	doesn't the N85 have amoled?	23:23
* auke is back from lunch		23:24
DocScrutinizer	no idea. Samsung has all in amoled now	23:24
lcuk	i dont know which I was looking at	23:24
lcuk	I took photos, but the label is all blurred	23:24
DocScrutinizer	saturated colors but allegedly no good visibility in sunlight	23:24
CosmoHill	lcuk: http://kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_3086.html << that;s a keybaord :D	23:25
lcuk	CosmoHill, yeah, optimus maximus has been floating around for a while	23:25
CosmoHill	that costs more than my car did :/	23:25
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DocScrutinizer	cost like gold	23:25
lcuk	CosmoHill, thats gonna be a mouse -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVqdfFdL3Q	23:25
lcuk	;)	23:25
CosmoHill	lol	23:26
CosmoHill	I like my Roccat Kova	23:26
CosmoHill	decent usb mouce which is what I needed	23:26
lcuk	i quite like the idea of having a nice touch device at my finger tips ;)	23:26
CosmoHill	it has buttons on both sides for left and right handed use	23:26
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, righthand here. Logi MX Revolution	23:27
lcuk	i have a wired logitech laser	23:27
lcuk	first laser which has got me away from ballmouse tbh	23:28
CosmoHill	my other wired keyboard is a Logitech MX510 that I got when I was 16 :D	23:28
lcuk	non visible too so no bright red light glowing when I pick it up	23:28
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DocScrutinizer	the OMRON switches are crap, needed a swap with old Mousman revamped switch :-) http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10053	23:29
CosmoHill	I have a MX700 (killed batteries), Mighty mouce (followed grains on my wooden desk) and a bluetooth mightmouce	23:29
CosmoHill	the mighty mice have bad scroll balls and don't right click properly	23:30
* lcuk is wired		23:30
lcuk	I had to stop using a mousepad with the laser though	23:30
DocScrutinizer	logi not using proper BT for protocol is a PITA - but otherwise best mouse I ever had	23:31
allandrick	has there been any meego updates since the 1.0 release?	23:31
CosmoHill	1.01 i think	23:31
allandrick	I'm wondering if rebuilding my ks will help.	23:31
CosmoHill	only available via update iirc	23:31
allandrick	update in the OS itself?	23:31
CosmoHill	yum update	23:31
CosmoHill	that kinda update	23:31
allandrick	on the meego device itself?	23:31
allandrick	or in the build env.	23:32
allandrick	??	23:32
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, every mouse I have ever tried which is wireless fails - I strongly dislike lag, in the time between moving mouse and stopping again normally the signals havent caught up	23:32
CosmoHill	erm	23:32
CosmoHill	ask lcuk :)	23:32
allandrick	yum isn't even installed on the meego device :P	23:32
lcuk	ask me what? building inside meego?	23:32
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: can't reproduce	23:32
lcuk	i need meego hardware to do that	23:32
Stskeeps	allandrick: zypper is	23:33
lcuk	i wont run emulated	23:33
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: only annoyance is suspend mode sometimes needs a kick to wake up	23:33
lcuk	i have many intel devices here	23:33
lcuk	and none are properly compabile	23:33
lcuk	compatible	23:34
allandrick	righto.	23:34
allandrick	it's off doing something now.	23:34
allandrick	26 packages to upgrade, 1 new.	23:35
allandrick	new kernel.	23:35
allandrick	interesting.	23:35
auke	zypper install yum; yum remove zypper	23:36
auke	problem solved	23:36
allandrick	lol	23:36
allandrick	hadn't thought of it like that.	23:36
auke	I'm not joking	23:37
allandrick	why is it there are so many different versions of the same thing	23:37
allandrick	yum, apt-get, emerge, zypper (new one for me)	23:37
allandrick	cvs, svn, and now git	23:37
allandrick	the mind boggles.	23:37
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* lcuk >> out		23:37
* allandrick waves.		23:38
auke	allandrick: vim, emacs	23:38
auke	P, NP	23:38
allandrick	that's different auke	23:38
auke	Jaffa: :)	23:38
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allandrick	vim has improvements over vi, emacs is a totally different beast.	23:38
allandrick	it's like comparing notepad with notepad++	23:38
auke	Jaffa: I'm bringing up Russel's paradox next	23:38
allandrick	I"m just saying - a lot of duplicated effort	23:39
allandrick	it's ego that does it tho.	23:39
allandrick	ppl just can't get along.	23:39
* allandrick slaps himself with a wet fish.		23:40
allandrick	see?	23:40
allandrick	even I hate me.	23:40
auke	asm, c, c++, pascal, modula-2, java, lisp, etc....	23:40
Jaffa	allandrick: You been reading the "Would you miss the Council if it was gone?" thread on talk.maemo.org? :-/	23:40
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CosmoHill	Window home basic, prem, pro, enterprice starer etc	23:40
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allandrick	Jaffa: no mate, just got started in on this MeeGo stuff on Monday	23:40
Jaffa	allandrick: There's a nice definition of mismatched expectations and "not get along"edness	23:41
* Jaffa is biased, being one of the volunteers being railed on ;-)		23:41
allandrick	19 pages?	23:41
Jaffa	allandrick: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60131	23:41
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allandrick	no wonder nothing gets done - everyone's bitching at each other on forums :)	23:41
Jaffa	allandrick: Maybe, I see 7 cos I've bumped up the number of posts per page	23:41
allandrick	lol	23:42
allandrick	you're living in denial then :P	23:42
Jaffa	Too right!	23:42
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allandrick	cbf reading that	23:42
allandrick	I'm too old for politics :P	23:42
allandrick	I just want shit to work already ;-)	23:42
auke	lol interesting thread	23:42
CosmoHill	you're to old to be f too	23:42
CosmoHill	hey auke	23:42
* allandrick puts a post-it note on his monitor reminding him this channel is logged.		23:43
auke	allandrick: assume all channels are logged.	23:44
* allandrick was using the internet before logs were invented.		23:44
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allandrick	ahh those were the days. you could dial into a DECNET terminal server at 1200/75, LAT connect to a VMS system and from there telnet to the local SMTP server and send mail from god@heaven.com	23:45
allandrick	freaked out the first years.	23:45
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allandrick	ahhh TGV.	23:46
Jaffa	Ah, SMTP conversations. Those were the days	23:46
* allandrick nods knowingly, stroking his long grey beard.		23:46
auke	raise your hands if can can type SMTP to a server over telnet	23:46
* Jaffa hands up		23:46
* auke raises hand		23:46
thiago_home	could you whistle the connection at 1200/75 ?	23:47
* allandrick raises his hand.		23:47
auke	thiago_home: XD	23:47
allandrick	only 300 thaiiago_home	23:47
auke	ok now we've identified the old people	23:47
* allandrick isn't old. Just worn out.		23:47
* thiago_home is from the EHLO time		23:47
auke	raise your hands if you never played doom 3D	23:47
allandrick	see, there you go again - what was wrong with HELO?	23:47
thiago_home	there's a 3D version?	23:47
CosmoHill	.o/	23:47
* thiago_home is considering buying SC2 though		23:48
thiago_home	first game in over 10 years	23:48
* allandrick wonders if castle wolfenstein counts...		23:48
auke	allandrick: possibly	23:48
allandrick	C=128 in C=64 mode.	23:48
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slaine	auke: now I feel old based on that doom question	23:49
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allandrick	right - reboot time - see what the updates bring.	23:50
* allandrick installs yum while he's at it.		23:51
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* allandrick cackles.		23:51
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vgrade	allandrik, you probably did'nt want to upgrade the kernel	23:56
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allandrick	probably	23:57
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allandrick	I'm driving blind here mate, I've really know enough to be dangerous.	23:58
Aard	12	23:58
allandrick	we'll find out in a minute :)	23:58
allandrick	vgrade: evening by the way	23:58
vgrade	evening, what about ya	23:59
allandrick	alright mate, y'self?	23:59

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