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| vnix | Hi, I have trouble booting meego using my pendrive | 00:44 |
|---|---|---|
| vnix | can anyone assist me plz? | 00:44 |
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| Erkan_Yilmaz | vnix state your problem exactly, otherwise no one will answer | 00:51 |
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| trem | nite all, sweet dreams | 01:54 |
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| CosmoHill | http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49296 | 02:16 |
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| CosmoHill | my hard drives are 33'C, 37'C and 39'C | 03:40 |
| cure` | i think one of my backup drives is overheating | 03:43 |
| cure` | its gone a few hours after boot | 03:43 |
| cure` | no message, nothing | 03:43 |
| cure` | or its just about to die | 03:44 |
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| cure` | think i'll treat myself to a nas in the process, am low on hd space anyway | 03:51 |
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| CosmoHill | cyas | 04:01 |
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| Termana | good morning | 04:15 |
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| GAN900 | Um | 04:44 |
| GAN900 | What's up with the QA contact? | 04:44 |
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| GAN900 | w00t_, oops, duped your email. | 04:52 |
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| tmzt | lbt: got what you were saying | 05:36 |
| tmzt | From 192.168.1.1: icmp_seq=2 Redirect Host(New nexthop: 192.168.1.5) | 05:36 |
| tmzt | From 192.168.1.5: icmp_seq=2 Redirect Host(New nexthop: 10.8.0.2) | 05:36 |
| tmzt | 64 bytes from 172.16.2.65: icmp_seq=2 ttl=62 time=37.0 ms | 05:36 |
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| Stskeeps | REMINDER: N900 hardware adaptation team meeting in 30 minutes in #meego-meeting , agenda at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900#Next_meeting | 08:30 |
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| Stskeeps | REMINDER: N900 hardware adaptation team meeting in 5 minutes in #meego-meeting , agenda at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900#Next_meeting | 08:55 |
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| Myrtti | crikey. | 10:35 |
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| Termana | Myrtti, WHAT WAS THAT? | 10:36 |
| Myrtti | I sneezed | 10:36 |
| Termana | Thats not what I meant :P anyway | 10:37 |
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| slaine | That Hildon thread was interesting | 11:47 |
| Stskeeps | maemo gtk is the worst problem of maemo, tbh | 11:47 |
| RST38h | one of indeed | 11:48 |
| RST38h | but don't you hope that qt will be better | 11:48 |
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| RST38h | Nokia is doing to qt exactly the same thing it has done to Symbian Eikon and Linux GTK+ | 11:49 |
| slaine | So what happened there, Maemo had an incompatible gtk+ branch, due to patches needed for Hildon to operate as per it's design ? | 11:49 |
| Stskeeps | right | 11:50 |
| Stskeeps | there's no real reason why they couldn't have gone straight into gtk, the people making it -was- gtk people | 11:50 |
| RST38h | slaine: Replacing random parts of the toolkit with its own incompatible analogs, breaking the original parts, making remaining parts incompatible too | 11:50 |
| Stskeeps | i didn't know they financed gnome foundation to get the future secured of hildon though | 11:50 |
| RST38h | Sts: Maemo4 GTK was still ok. Maemo5 GTK is broken | 11:51 |
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| slaine | So it effectively became a fork and now the pain is to bring it back | 11:51 |
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| Stskeeps | right | 11:51 |
| slaine | bummer, that's one of the worst types of pain | 11:51 |
| RST38h | and, mainly, there is no reason to bring it back | 11:52 |
| slaine | (project pain that is) | 11:53 |
| RST38h | Maemo5 GTK has serious UI design problems | 11:53 |
| slaine | So what, go back to Hildon circa Maemo4 ? | 11:53 |
| RST38h | yea | 11:53 |
| RST38h | that is actually a better idea, IMHO | 11:53 |
| slaine | Maemo5 was Diablo release right ? | 11:53 |
| RST38h | Maemo5=Fremantle | 11:53 |
| RST38h | Maemo4=Diablo/Chinook | 11:54 |
| slaine | Ah right | 11:54 |
| RST38h | Important note: Maemo4 GTK will need a few tweaks to make it finger-friendly | 11:54 |
| RST38h | (i.e. you will need to add kinetic scrolling and a couple more things) | 11:55 |
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| * slaine wonders if there's any chance of porting Hildon atop of Mx rather than Gtk+ | 11:58 | |
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| timeless_mbp | slaine: the solution to bad forks is to kill them or stick a fork in them and bury them :) | 12:00 |
| slaine | indeed, but why not remove the fork and have the Hildon API sit atop Mx ? | 12:00 |
| timeless_mbp | you want to do it? :) | 12:01 |
| slaine | If the gnome foundation want to match my salary then sure :) | 12:01 |
| timeless_mbp | glad to hear someone gets a decent salary | 12:02 |
| RST38h | slaine: so you have got your answer to "why not" right there | 12:02 |
| slaine | Is there a git repo where I can scare myself off | 12:02 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine: of which? maemo5-hildon? | 12:04 |
| timeless_mbp | http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/ | 12:04 |
| timeless_mbp | was probably hildon | 12:04 |
| timeless_mbp | http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/.svn/entries | 12:05 |
| timeless_mbp | points to https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk | 12:05 |
| timeless_mbp | looks like they killed that at some point :) | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | it's on gitorious now | 12:05 |
| slaine | haf == hildon application framework ???? | 12:05 |
| timeless_mbp | yep | 12:05 |
| lcuk | yes slaine | 12:05 |
| lcuk | whats Mx? | 12:05 |
| timeless_mbp | Meego experience? :) | 12:06 |
| slaine | GObject toolkit built on Clutter | 12:06 |
| zaheerm | mx is clutter based | 12:06 |
| slaine | Using CSS for styling | 12:06 |
| lcuk | lol cool | 12:06 |
| timeless_mbp | it's a chance to ensure a namespace collision | 12:06 |
| timeless_mbp | with nokia's M prefixed meego ui | 12:06 |
| timeless_mbp | which is supposedly Qt based :) | 12:06 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, and why not take that opportunity! :D | 12:06 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: a missed opportunity is a terrible thing | 12:06 |
| timeless_mbp | all waste is good waste | 12:07 |
| timeless_mbp | and the more confusion the merrier | 12:07 |
| lcuk | well mx doesnt come up in google ;) | 12:07 |
| lcuk | it tells me about dns records | 12:07 |
| timeless_mbp | does the nokia maemo6 ui come up in google? | 12:07 |
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| slaine | lcuk, it reached 1.0 last week, just intime for the meego release :) | 12:07 |
| Terwiz | I've been trying to find some instructions on how to compile MeeGo kernel for N900, but haven't found much info. On gitorious there are couple of n900 kernel related repos, but no instructions there. Any pointers? | 12:08 |
| slaine | Mx is an reworking of nbtk from Moblin2 (nbtk == netbook toolkit). | 12:08 |
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| slaine | It would have replaced nbtk in Moblin 2.2 | 12:09 |
| lcuk | see, now nbtk comes up | 12:09 |
| Stskeeps | Terwiz: #meego-arm | 12:09 |
| slaine | it's got released code, Mx doesn't really | 12:09 |
| slaine | lcuk, search in conjunction with either clutter or Thomas Wood | 12:09 |
| lcuk | but you said it was released | 12:09 |
| slaine | as much of a release as a git branch for 1.0 being released | 12:10 |
| thiago_home | shameless plug: http://gitorious.org/qt-components/qt-components (it has mx-like support) | 12:10 |
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| RST38h | what IS mx? | 12:11 |
| lcuk | o_O thiago_home another prototype :p when does qt expect to hit 1.0 :D | 12:11 |
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| Terwiz | Stskeeps: thanks, I'll check that out | 12:12 |
| slaine | RST38h: http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2009/11/18/a-new-clutter-widget-toolkit/ | 12:12 |
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| slaine | And then, http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2010/05/20/mx-toolkit-1-0/ | 12:13 |
| lcuk | slaine, sure i found them eventually | 12:13 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: it's QML support for making MX-like widgets for the moment | 12:13 |
| lcuk | perhaps continuing to call it clutter mx would be better | 12:13 |
| slaine | Gnome shell has something very similar in St (Shell Toolkit) | 12:14 |
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| RST38h | slaine: Clutter. I will stop there. | 12:14 |
| * slaine likes clutter | 12:14 | |
| RST38h | slaine: consider cost vs benefit ratio of clutter | 12:15 |
| lcuk | so its a toolkit that sits ontop of a clutter actors | 12:15 |
| thiago_home | yes | 12:15 |
| slaine | RST38h: I don't follow | 12:16 |
| thiago_home | just like the three that exist on top of QGraphicsView | 12:16 |
| RST38h | slaine: Ok, let me explain | 12:16 |
| RST38h | slaine: Costs: 1) more complicated to program with 2) holds GL context 3) requires 3D hardware to work | 12:16 |
| RST38h | slaine: Benefits: ??? | 12:17 |
| Stskeeps | wasn't 2) solved? | 12:17 |
| thiago_home | and 3: GL is the future | 12:17 |
| RST38h | Sts: For full screen mode | 12:17 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, w00t_ has done a bit of hacking with qgraphicsscene which if im right wants to use normal qt widgets but with the flexibility of GV | 12:17 |
| thiago_home | non-GL is only for compatibility mode | 12:17 |
| RST38h | fuck the future | 12:17 |
| lcuk | gl is only the future if it can render everything ;) | 12:18 |
| thiago_home | what can't it render? | 12:18 |
| RST38h | Gentlemen, please, do not try pushing your silver unicorn into my appartment | 12:18 |
| Stskeeps | and please don't try to push your mainframe into ours ;) | 12:19 |
| RST38h | It takes space, eats too much, and has a tendency of laying a turd | 12:19 |
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| thiago_home | the point is: for limited CPUs, you have to use GPUs | 12:19 |
| th0br0 | lcuk: what can it not render? GL has been more powerful than dx for ages | 12:19 |
| thiago_home | they exist, they are there, they consume less power to produce the same result | 12:19 |
| RST38h | limited CPUs have no GPUs | 12:19 |
| RST38h | you should simply design the UI to avoid bloat | 12:19 |
| thiago_home | that's the point | 12:20 |
| thiago_home | it's not bloat, it's what people ask for: animations, fluid | 12:20 |
| lcuk | neither need gl | 12:20 |
| thiago_home | doing that in the CPU would mean poor battery life, if you even can do it | 12:20 |
| lcuk | and gl adds overhead | 12:20 |
| thiago_home | doing it in the GPU helps a lot | 12:20 |
| lcuk | i was doing fluid animations on the n810 | 12:20 |
| sx0n | cpu only is so 90's | 12:21 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: how much CPU % consumed to do 60 fps? | 12:21 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, depends whats happening (and max tear free FPS on n900 YUV mode is 57) | 12:21 |
| lcuk | achieved often | 12:22 |
| thiago_home | 90+% CPU? | 12:22 |
| lcuk | nahhh | 12:22 |
| lcuk | liqflow uses 50% for that | 12:22 |
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| lcuk | most other things are even less | 12:22 |
| thiago_home | good | 12:22 |
| lcuk | flow only has heavy particle physics | 12:22 |
| thiago_home | anyway, I'm not a graphics developer | 12:23 |
| thiago_home | talk to those who are and they'll explain the issue | 12:23 |
| thiago_home | point being: GL is the future and we're acting accordingly | 12:23 |
| RST38h | thiago: I have not asked for animations | 12:23 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: users have | 12:23 |
| suihkulokki | the issue is that people beliebve gpu is a magic bullet that makes things automatically fast :) | 12:24 |
| RST38h | thiago: provide the list | 12:24 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, on the dui toolkit example does that use gl? | 12:24 |
| lcuk | +1 suihkulokki | 12:24 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: yes | 12:24 |
| lcuk | eep! | 12:24 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: don't be absurd. | 12:24 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: go out there, talk to the average non-gui user. | 12:25 |
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| RST38h | thiago: The moment you said "GL is the future so we should all use it", you set the tone for absurdity | 12:25 |
| th0br0 | eeh non-geek | 12:25 |
| th0br0 | :S | 12:25 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, you might have missed this little nugget that w00t_ posted: http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/05/using-platform-rendering-for-widgets-in.html | 12:25 |
| RST38h | non-gui user? you mean command line user? :) | 12:25 |
| lcuk | its a great short read :) | 12:25 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: again, don't be absurd. What I said is not absurdity. | 12:25 |
| * slaine still likes Clutter despite this thread | 12:25 | |
| th0br0 | RST38h: non-geek as i said :D | 12:25 |
| sx0n | gpu can be really used for some other things than just ui toolkit e.g. like games. | 12:25 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: the point was that there's a processor dedicated for doing graphics and vector operations. And it consumes less power to do that compared to the CPU. | 12:26 |
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| thiago_home | RST38h: why the hell not use it? | 12:26 |
| Bostik | just my opinion, but using GL (and as much hardware routines for drawing things on screen as possible) makes sense even from a technical point of view; a 2D screen is just a perfectly aligned plane and hence a special case of 3D | 12:26 |
| RST38h | thiago: Because it requires GPU (not found in cheap hardware), binds GPU context (cannot run desktop GL apps), and makes programming more complicated | 12:26 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: do you use threads in your applications? | 12:27 |
| slaine | cpu/gpu is a tick/tock type thing. eventually the gpu will become a math unit on the cpu again. So gpu per se isn't the issue. The issue is how to deliver an experience that attracts customers and satisfies users. | 12:27 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, so all qpainter operations are driven directly on the gpu? | 12:27 |
| RST38h | thiago: So, if you do want to advocate GL use for 2D, you should provide enough real advantages to offset that | 12:27 |
| RST38h | thiago: Sometimes, whenI need them | 12:27 |
| lcuk | ie if i draw a line, its converted directly to GL operations? | 12:27 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: with the opengl paint engine, yes, most of them. | 12:27 |
| lcuk | or its drawn using CPU onto a texture | 12:27 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: check with the graphics devs. | 12:28 |
| th0br0 | Isn't it like the whole useflow that is the big advantage? I mean, you make your changes and then push the update to the gpu | 12:28 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: battery life is one advantage. Freeing the CPU to do other tasks (or power down) is another. | 12:28 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: faster/quicker operations is a third. | 12:28 |
| RST38h | thiago: actually UI spends most time blocked, waiting for input. So, these do not count | 12:29 |
| thiago_home | except when you try to do 60 fps animations | 12:29 |
| thiago_home | and *that* is where the GPU comes in | 12:29 |
| RST38h | thiago: I see no place for animations in UI | 12:30 |
| thiago_home | too bad, because we do and users are asking for it | 12:31 |
| sx0n | e.g. in iphone? it makes operations smooth and responsive. | 12:31 |
| RST38h | thiago: most users I have seen are just asking for a speedy ui | 12:31 |
| RST38h | they do not ask for more eyecandy | 12:31 |
| thiago_home | painting a 800x480 screen is also faster with GPU | 12:32 |
| thiago_home | rather than blitting and then transferring to the video card | 12:32 |
| lcuk | only because GL missed out the x11 network transfer | 12:32 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: once they've got the speedy ui, they'll want animations | 12:32 |
| lcuk | its similar to xvideo in that regard | 12:32 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: the only way to do something equivalent is to ask the server-side to do some of the operations for you | 12:33 |
| thiago_home | that is known as XRender | 12:33 |
| thiago_home | right? | 12:33 |
| RST38h | th0br0: Most users are actually quite down to earth and would simply like a UI that works fast and requires the minimal amount of hassle | 12:33 |
| RST38h | I see no reason why that would involve animations | 12:33 |
| lcuk | dunno, i just know the pipeline for x11 is its biggest hangup | 12:33 |
| sx0n | my farmville ui is very heavy, it really needs a gpu. | 12:34 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: then you reduce the bandwidth consumed by doing vector operations | 12:34 |
| RST38h | and why you would absolutely need to tie GL hw for that | 12:34 |
| th0br0 | sx0n: that's flash though | 12:34 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: you send commands instead of sending huge rasterisations | 12:34 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: go talk to the graphics devs | 12:34 |
| lcuk | sure, but even that isnt enough sometimes | 12:34 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: tomorrow at this time in #qt-labs | 12:34 |
| lcuk | its easy to overuse the cpu gpu etc | 12:34 |
| sx0n | th0br0, yes, so is this just Qt should not use gpu but other programs could? | 12:34 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: I'll point you to who to talk to. They'll explain why. | 12:34 |
| RST38h | graphics devs always love using the latest hw they have got | 12:34 |
| th0br0 | huh sx0n? | 12:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: yes, of course. | 12:35 |
| lcuk | and whichever toolkit would benefit from trimming down and losing as many layers as possible | 12:35 |
| RST38h | so they are not the right people to tlak to here | 12:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: why not? | 12:35 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: in the future, a device without eyecandy will clearly be lagging behind | 12:35 |
| th0br0 | so why provoke that situation? | 12:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: "hey, I've got hardware that can do these cool things. Why shouldn't I use it?" | 12:35 |
| RST38h | thiago: because other people have not got the same hw | 12:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: no, they do | 12:35 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: we're starting from the assumption that the hw is there | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: tell me why the HW shouldn't be used. | 12:36 |
| RST38h | wrong assumption for a portable open source project | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: the raster engine isn't going anywhere | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | RST38h: but there is HW. Tell me why not use it. | 12:36 |
| RST38h | Case in question: Meego | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | yes, MeeGo | 12:36 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: tell me a modern *smartphone* that hasn't got a GLES GPU onboard. | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | MeeGo requires OpenGL ES and OpenGL | 12:36 |
| RST38h | Cannot be easily run without PowerVR | 12:36 |
| thiago_home | right, HW support is required. | 12:37 |
| RST38h | So, none of the cheaper chinese made Socs will be able to run it | 12:37 |
| thiago_home | yeah, so? | 12:37 |
| lcuk | i hear meego wont run on the nokia netbook | 12:37 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: don't talk about the booklet... | 12:38 |
| lcuk | because of intel drivers or soemthing | 12:38 |
| * thiago_home is sad about that | 12:38 | |
| RST38h | hehe | 12:38 |
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| RST38h | thiago: why not? let us talk about the booklet... | 12:38 |
| lcuk | just having hardware does not mean its usable | 12:38 |
| * Stskeeps is still hoping for a proper iegd | 12:38 | |
| * RST38h has solved this in a different way inside his team | 12:38 | |
| thiago_home | if MeeGo is to ship on the booklet, then either the driver will be provided, or the HW will be changed. | 12:39 |
| thiago_home | it's pointless for a company to ship HW that is unused. | 12:39 |
| thiago_home | so RST38h hasn't yet explained to me why the GPU shouldn't be used when it's there. | 12:39 |
| * RST38h xplained that, twice | 12:39 | |
| thiago_home | no, you didn't | 12:39 |
| sx0n | i think that one way would provide software opengl drivers for it. | 12:39 |
| thiago_home | there is a good GPU and the drivers are available. Why shouldn't it be used? | 12:39 |
| sx0n | but that's crap. | 12:39 |
| RST38h | thiago: You mean PowerVR by that? | 12:40 |
| RST38h | "good GPU and drivers"? | 12:40 |
| thiago_home | I'm not saying that one is good or that the drivers are good. | 12:40 |
| RST38h | go talk to arjan ;) | 12:40 |
| thiago_home | take a case where that is true. Why shouldn't the hardware be used? | 12:41 |
| sx0n | n810 had opengl hw, it was not used. | 12:41 |
| sx0n | i still wonder why not. | 12:41 |
| suihkulokki | one worrying aspect of having the ui toolkit use opengl is that most developers are completly incompetent in profiling opengl, and putting a layer in between makes it even more tricky to figure out why one's ui is slow | 12:42 |
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| lcuk | agreed it should be used, but certainly for people like RST38h who just want long life and simple effective ui | 12:42 |
| lcuk | suihkulokki, but with opengl its not slow | 12:42 |
| lcuk | just throw more hardware | 12:42 |
| thiago_home | suihkulokki: that's why we believe the UI should be declarative and there should be a good translation layer to OpenGL commands. | 12:42 |
| thiago_home | suihkulokki: so all the GL scheduling and the profiling is done in one place | 12:43 |
| * lcuk would be happy with an uber fast qpainter | 12:43 | |
| thiago_home | lcuk: the problem is QPainter API | 12:43 |
| thiago_home | it's imperative | 12:43 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, so? | 12:44 |
| lcuk | its what people understand - oh time to paint, woooooooo line line box line cirle | 12:44 |
| thiago_home | right | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Declarative UI has been known at least since Motif | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Didn't help Motif any | 12:44 |
| thiago_home | and what does the backend do? paint them in the order you gave | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Not that it is a bad thing, of course | 12:44 |
| thiago_home | even though there's clearly a better order | 12:44 |
| lcuk | thiago_home, mmm ? | 12:45 |
| thiago_home | go read gunnar's blog. | 12:45 |
| thiago_home | imagine you have two buttons | 12:45 |
| thiago_home | the buttons have backgrounds, a shape and text | 12:46 |
| thiago_home | what's the proper order of painting? | 12:46 |
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| sx0n | i think that declarative fits better for opengl retained mode than imperative apis. correct wtg imo. | 12:46 |
| lcuk | recurse into each child performing polyfills followed by caption glyphs for each | 12:47 |
| * Stskeeps is worried about no widget toolkit in QML | 12:47 | |
| RST38h | Sts: ? | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | ie, no consistent UI amongst apps | 12:47 |
| RST38h | ah that | 12:47 |
| RST38h | well it depends on how disciplined developers are | 12:48 |
| RST38h | and you can run some kind of QML "lint" utility that checks QML scripts for uniform UI | 12:48 |
| lcuk | thats feedback loop between developer/designer/tester | 12:49 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: qt-components | 12:49 |
| * RST38h would prohibit use of absolute cooridnates inside QML scripts for example | 12:49 | |
| * Stskeeps looks | 12:49 | |
| lcuk | and the designer should know and understand the cosntraints of the toolkit/ui expectaitons | 12:49 |
| lcuk | expectations | 12:49 |
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| thiago_home | lcuk: so paint background, paint border, paint text | 12:52 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: then repeat for the other button? | 12:52 |
| lcuk | nahh if you paint border first you get crap when you do polyfill | 12:53 |
| lcuk | so fill background, draw text, then add border | 12:53 |
| lcuk | but yeah | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | ok | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | but then you draw the other button, repeating the same operations? | 12:53 |
| lcuk | yeah | 12:53 |
| thiago_home | what if I told you it's faster to draw both backgrounds first, then both texts, then the borders? | 12:53 |
| lcuk | exactly the same as if you did them in retained mode and built meshes for each | 12:53 |
| lcuk | then i would ask why your graphics operations are so laggy, these are concepts used in computer rendering for 30 years | 12:54 |
| thiago_home | because you're changing states | 12:55 |
| thiago_home | that's how the HW operates | 12:55 |
| lcuk | sure it does | 12:56 |
| lcuk | but you have to ask why the difference is so great | 12:57 |
| lcuk | that you HAVE to find an alternative path | 12:57 |
| thiago_home | right | 12:57 |
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| thiago_home | the alternative path is to know what you're going to draw, so the renderer can reorder the operations to their optimum | 12:57 |
| lcuk | how does it know the optimum? | 12:58 |
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| thiago_home | it's optimised per GPU | 13:01 |
| thiago_home | it knows what the GPU likes best | 13:01 |
| thiago_home | you know, like the compiler does | 13:01 |
| lcuk | sure, but if thats happening per frame based on render contents isnt that going to use ~= cpu than the difference in brute force render ops | 13:02 |
| thiago_home | so that's the next step: know what will happen in the next frame | 13:05 |
| thiago_home | right? | 13:05 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, i dunno thiago_home im not a mind reader :P | 13:06 |
| frals | youre not? DOH need to stop assuming that :( | 13:06 |
| lcuk | i knew you were gonna say that frals :p | 13:07 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: the point is: the only way to optimise is to know what the scene contains as a whole | 13:07 |
| thiago_home | and possibly know what the scene is going to do next | 13:07 |
| thiago_home | hence the scene graph research and QML | 13:07 |
| lcuk | sure theres many ways to skin a cat | 13:09 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, start all optimisation by peeling back the layers and asking why at each stage. discard/refactor anything without a clear purpose. | 13:15 |
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| Anil | hi any body have idea which webkit revision meego uses...? | 15:36 |
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| thiago_home | Anil: 4fb414b38f7c7c8439ce6a4323f1acb057a3ff20 | 15:38 |
| Anil | whats that? | 15:39 |
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| thiago_home | Anil: the revision that Qt 4.6.2 uses | 15:39 |
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| Anil | thiago_home:i am asking about the webkit build revision...other wise whats the last upmerged revision of webkit in meego... | 15:44 |
| thiago_home | Anil: this is the revision | 15:45 |
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| thiago_home | QtWebKit is tracked on Git, not on Subversion | 15:45 |
| thiago_home | wait, there's a SVN revision for this one: 58257 | 15:45 |
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| thiago_home | Anil: did that answer your question? | 15:56 |
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| achipa | though there are some patches over that... right ? (i.e. it's not the same webkit for all of 4.6.2) | 16:08 |
| thiago_home | no, that's the exact same as far as I can tell | 16:08 |
| thiago_home | it's not organised the same way, but it's the same sources | 16:08 |
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| achipa | thiago: hm, but... then how can it be that for exampe 'old' 4.6.2 worked with flash content fine, while 'new' 4.6.2 is FUBAR ? | 16:09 |
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| achipa | (where old = maemo edition in extras-devel, new = one that is in PR1.2 SDK) | 16:10 |
| achipa | s/exampe/example/ | 16:10 |
| thiago_home | hum | 16:10 |
| thiago_home | you asked MeeGo, not Maemo5 | 16:10 |
| achipa | didn't know maemo5 has 'special' treatment with regard to qtwebkit :) | 16:11 |
| thiago_home | lots | 16:11 |
| thiago_home | to all of Qt | 16:11 |
| achipa | (yes, assumed for QtGui and system services, qtwebkit seemed fairly self-contained) | 16:12 |
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| thiago_home | 11 patches to webkit | 16:13 |
| thiago_home | including the kinetic scroller | 16:13 |
| achipa | my problem is something keyboard related | 16:13 |
| achipa | the moment you press a key BAM, your flash is dead | 16:13 |
| Anil | hey thiago_home.....thanks for the reply.....yes.. | 16:14 |
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| achipa | but I'm hijacking the channel :) qt-maemo is just too quiet :) | 16:14 |
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| jmk | http://marc.info/?l=linux-security-module&m=127470821201325&w=2 | 18:01 |
| jmk | expecting selinux guys to pop up any second | 18:01 |
| jmk | 'no! we have the one true way to nirvana!' | 18:02 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine: hey, do you know anything about bugs.meego.com? | 18:03 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm wondering of there's an SLA for it :) | 18:03 |
| slaine | timeless_mbp: I know there where scheduled moves for some servers to OSU. Not sure when that was supposed to happen though | 18:04 |
| slaine | mshaver would be the person to ask I assume | 18:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'm thinking more along the lines of "if a random person files a bug, and provides a patch, how long should that person expect to wait before someone says 'oh, thanks'" | 18:05 |
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| * timeless_mbp already asked about DNS and hasn't gotten a response | 18:05 | |
| timeless_mbp | http://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=reporter%3Atimeless | 18:06 |
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| * GAN900 bets it depends on the product. | 18:08 | |
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| timeless_mbp | i've used 2 products! | 18:10 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd use more, but i forgot to keep track of all the packages whose sources where NOT READABLE BY ANYONE! | 18:11 |
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| * timeless_mbp kicks stupid stupid stupid stupid packagers | 18:11 | |
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| reshwindblade | so anyone here has an idea when the actual build will be ready for netbooks? | 19:29 |
| reshwindblade | like the one demoed in Intel Dev Forum 2010, Beijing | 19:29 |
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| happyblob | end of may I think | 19:30 |
| happyblob | I assume you just mean a public release with the netbook UX (gui) running? | 19:31 |
| reshwindblade | yup, not the shell | 19:32 |
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| reshwindblade | just saw on youtube/ChannelIntel they have a demo live on Netbook and other devices | 19:32 |
| happyblob | yeah I seem to remember reading it would by around the end of this month :-) | 19:32 |
| berserker | happyblob, thanks for the good news :) | 19:33 |
| happyblob | if you want to get a flavour of the look and feel, you could always try running a live session of Moblin | 19:33 |
| reshwindblade | the problem is Nokia announce Symbian ^3 and delayed that too , not sure if this going to be delayed | 19:33 |
| reshwindblade | coz today = 25th (for me), only 6 more days till end of may | 19:33 |
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| reshwindblade | Moblin 2.1 was on my netbook for sometime, but it is bad, their status update was only for Last.fm and Twitter, no integration to other social services, and their "zones" was abit confusing at first, hopefully this new version will fix it | 19:35 |
| happyblob | yeah I'm thinking much the same! | 19:35 |
| reshwindblade | anyways this is the link :-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub_cwsJnQps IDF2010, can see they already have the GUI for Phone, Netbook, TV and Kiosk | 19:36 |
| happyblob | thanks for sharing, i'd somehow missed that vid! | 19:37 |
| reshwindblade | no problem, dont know why that video wasnt on the official nokia or intel channel, but it does show the UI for MeeGo | 19:38 |
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| thiago_home | what does Symbian^3 have to do with anything? | 19:42 |
| reshwindblade | no it doesnt, i said i hope it doesnt get delayed like it only | 19:42 |
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| reshwindblade | :) | 19:42 |
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| reshwindblade | coz Nokia announced MeeGo end of May, only 6-7 days left | 19:43 |
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| reshwindblade | foresee Internet Service Providers and Telcos/Carriers going to hate MeeGo (since using cloud storage) | 19:48 |
| thiago_home | why? | 19:49 |
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| reshwindblade | well from the demo at IDF2010, they trying to do put a media in 1 device and will be access by all | 19:51 |
| reshwindblade | like having a whole music folder online (or at a PC at home) | 19:51 |
| reshwindblade | and stream to your phone | 19:51 |
| lcuk | did it say streaming? | 19:51 |
| reshwindblade | i am sure carriers will enjoy that | 19:51 |
| lcuk | it said syncing | 19:51 |
| reshwindblade | same thing need to download | 19:51 |
| reshwindblade | and yea u are right | 19:52 |
| lcuk | and then if both devices have the same media | 19:52 |
| reshwindblade | my bad | 19:52 |
| reshwindblade | yup like a DropBox | 19:52 |
| lcuk | its just a case of playmovie(x.avi,25seconds) | 19:52 |
| reshwindblade | but still this will mean bandwidth usage | 19:52 |
| lcuk | well i do that sort of stuff at home | 19:52 |
| lcuk | over wifi or usb | 19:52 |
| reshwindblade | maybe not a problem for most people in USA/UK, but I am from Asia, bandwidth here = expensive | 19:52 |
| lcuk | i dont try downloading movies on the go | 19:52 |
| reshwindblade | yea well need to wait the actual release to see the features | 19:53 |
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| reshwindblade | but lets say it Syncs between devices | 19:53 |
| reshwindblade | this would be it is stored online | 19:53 |
| reshwindblade | wonder how many GB cloud storage we get | 19:53 |
| reshwindblade | hehe | 19:54 |
| thiago_home | carriers will enjoy if users pay for the traffic | 19:54 |
| thiago_home | or you can use the wifi at home | 19:54 |
| lcuk | please wait, syncing movies (7 hours remaining) | 19:54 |
| reshwindblade | yup true | 19:55 |
| reshwindblade | O.O | 19:55 |
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| reshwindblade | one thing is confusing , Maemo 6 also coming out soon | 19:55 |
| reshwindblade | and I taught MeeGo suppose to replace maemo | 19:56 |
| happyblob | yeah Maemo will technically be an 'instance' of meego but not a meego version itself | 19:56 |
| happyblob | it does seem awfully confusing I think | 19:56 |
| happyblob | perhaps not for people in the know, but certainly typical end users | 19:57 |
| reshwindblade | well maybe for developers it is ok | 19:57 |
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| reshwindblade | think of what problem Android faces | 19:57 |
| reshwindblade | 1.5, 1.6 , 2.0 , 2.1 etc | 19:57 |
| reshwindblade | to developers = problem | 19:57 |
| reshwindblade | regular users are ignorant to it | 19:57 |
| reshwindblade | Maemo 6, MeeGo 1 , Moblin (not sure if a moblin phone is coming) | 19:58 |
| happyblob | i'm worried about fragmentation in MeeGo as well, given the scope of the project.. but i'm not technically enough to *really* be worrying | 19:58 |
| happyblob | technical* | 19:58 |
| reshwindblade | as long it uses a Rolling upgrade method should be fine | 19:58 |
| reshwindblade | so that way Nokia/Intel can keep all devices the same | 19:59 |
| reshwindblade | this is what i hope, that they threat it as a Full Blow OS, instead of just a Mobile OS. | 19:59 |
| reshwindblade | something like how Windows/Linux is, buy a PC from any OEM but you will get the updates for it regardless of hardware OEM. | 20:00 |
| reshwindblade | but not sure about MeeGo? anyone can clarify how they plan to handle the updates? | 20:00 |
| happyblob | I'm just speculating here but i dont think they'll be able to make it anything like as simple as Windows | 20:02 |
| happyblob | just because they have different UX layers which will be developed using different technologies | 20:03 |
| happyblob | unless they actively synchronize updates over all platforms | 20:03 |
| * lbt watches this one... popcorn anyone? | 20:03 | |
| reshwindblade | well I am a web dev, this not my cup of tea, so I am clueless about this. | 20:03 |
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| * TSCHAKeee just shakes head and goes back to doing productive work. I love it when users talk out of their ass | 20:04 | |
| reshwindblade | but that is the only way I can see to reduce fragmentation | 20:04 |
| happyblob | lbt, stop being quiet, you know more about this than both of us combined | 20:04 |
| happyblob | :) | 20:04 |
| happyblob | (not sarcasm!) | 20:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | I swear | 20:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | this project hasn't even reached 1.0 yet | 20:04 |
| TSCHAKeee | and the clueless user masses are already predicting doom and gloom | 20:05 |
| reshwindblade | it is an open-discussion | 20:05 |
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| happyblob | I did say i was speculating! :-P | 20:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | if you actually want to know these things | 20:05 |
| reshwindblade | it is not like we are saying "going to kill Iphone" or "it is 1337 phone" | 20:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | why don't you dig into the mailing lists? | 20:05 |
| reshwindblade | lol | 20:05 |
| TSCHAKeee | participate in the meetings | 20:06 |
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| happyblob | i'm in the community one but the technical is a bit beyond me | 20:06 |
| reshwindblade | you will have to forgive me I just joined | 20:06 |
| * tripzero waves hand "these are not the droids you are looking for" | 20:06 | |
| reshwindblade | i was planning to join the next meeting | 20:06 |
| tripzero | each meego platform should probably considered in its own terms | 20:07 |
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| happyblob | so if theres some big update on my netbook i shouldn't assume it means there's something coming for my phone? | 20:08 |
| tripzero | right | 20:08 |
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| lbt | happyblob, reshwindblade; speculation is rarely constructive at this point. Fun maybe, but not really constructive. Especially comparative speculation. And double especially saying "it won't be as good as windows because...." | 20:08 |
| tripzero | unless it's a core OS package | 20:08 |
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| lbt | better would be to try and understand why it is done the way it is... | 20:08 |
| reshwindblade | haha the windows comment not mine :) but thanks for the info about the update | 20:08 |
| lbt | many smart people got it to that point... when you *really* know why they got there feel free to critique; until then assume you're wrong. (I do) | 20:09 |
| reshwindblade | ok but from my understanding it is going to be like how Linux is now | 20:09 |
| happyblob | sorry, didnt phrase it very well, i just mean because windows is one big OS only on PC's its easier to push updates to it then an OS which is used in kiosks, cars, phones etc. Didn't mean it'd be worse | 20:09 |
| reshwindblade | Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE | 20:09 |
| reshwindblade | if the core (kernel example updates, all might get it , but different timing) | 20:10 |
| lbt | so yes, there was some discussion about fragmentation in android in the news today | 20:10 |
| lbt | and it's relevant | 20:10 |
| lbt | but meego is too new to have answers | 20:10 |
| lbt | OTOH there are deployed solutions from maemo, android, apple, and all the linux distros that we can learn from | 20:11 |
| reshwindblade | i dont know how you included Apple with the word linux distros but go on | 20:12 |
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| lbt | they're an OS | 20:12 |
| reshwindblade | ah k :) | 20:12 |
| lbt | they solve the problem in their way... restrict a lot | 20:12 |
| lbt | it works | 20:12 |
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| poutsi | the android problem is made worse by e.g. finnish carriers who are still pushing phones with 1.5... it feels like they don't care about the platform enough to bother upgrading the offerings | 20:12 |
| lbt | the android problem is that they're not ready for consumers IMHO | 20:13 |
| reshwindblade | poutsi, finnish still no Android market | 20:13 |
| poutsi | sort of my feeling too, but they're damn well ready enough for me, i just want the new stuff, not the relatively ancient | 20:13 |
| lbt | although in the mobile market the lifetime of a phone is prett short | 20:13 |
| lbt | poutsi: so are you a "consumer"? | 20:14 |
| TSCHAKeee | and it's getting shorter. | 20:14 |
| reshwindblade | the reason i looking towards MeeGo/Maemo, it is because Android (as good as it is) doesnt support many contries like Nokia | 20:14 |
| poutsi | lbt, not really | 20:14 |
| poutsi | not a mass market average consumer anyway | 20:14 |
| reshwindblade | my country till today no Android App store (free one also dont have), but got OVi | 20:14 |
| arjan | android is trying to change the rules | 20:14 |
| arjan | and frankly, meego would like that same change to happen | 20:14 |
| arjan | where it's not an embedded "develop once and then forget" | 20:14 |
| arjan | but get better quickly on a high innovation pace | 20:15 |
| lbt | yes, but as the cost rises TSCHAKeee, then the people who buy will be less bleeding edge (like poutsi) and will expect longer term support | 20:15 |
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| CosmoHill | hey arjan and lbt | 20:15 |
| arjan | rather than the embedded "fork and hten spend a year on something and then forget about it" | 20:15 |
| TSCHAKeee | lbt, i agree. | 20:15 |
| reshwindblade | ok what I gather from this is basically, you are saying that it is going to be controlled/restricted to an extent | 20:16 |
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| lbt | reshwindblade: not sure where you get that? | 20:16 |
| reshwindblade | earlier u mention how Apple does it an it works | 20:16 |
| lbt | my apple comment? | 20:16 |
| w00t_ | by taking "apple restrict stuff" and somehow extrapolating that meego will do the same | 20:16 |
| poutsi | it's just... i don't see how android is a platform for anything but "the cool new thing" atm, and the carriers are (intentionally?) crippling them, perhaps so that iphones and nokias sell better :p | 20:16 |
| reshwindblade | i taught u meant this should be the same | 20:16 |
| poutsi | or maybe that's reading too much into it | 20:16 |
| lbt | nah, it's just "a model" | 20:16 |
| TSCHAKeee | you read too much into it. | 20:17 |
| arjan | if the carrier thinks that restricting its users is a smart business decision, capitalism will make sure that that gets solved ;-) | 20:17 |
| poutsi | anyway, it irks me :) | 20:17 |
| lbt | china has pretty good crime levels.... I don't agree with how they do it though :) | 20:17 |
| reshwindblade | Nokia sells well in my country (malaysia), but problem is Apple's marketing here is aggressive, when people think Nokia it is always low end phones, and Apple = high end | 20:17 |
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| TSCHAKeee | the issue here also, is that in the android market, there are a few vendors who are pushing their flavour of android phone to be _the_ phone to have. | 20:18 |
| reshwindblade | local reviews for N900 = 6/10 , stating there is not much apps | 20:18 |
| lbt | how carriers and device vendors manage meego based devices.... I dunno | 20:18 |
| w00t_ | lbt: personally, I'd like them to _not_ manage them | 20:18 |
| TSCHAKeee | time will tell whether somebody does this with a MeeGo based phone. | 20:18 |
| w00t_ | seriously, every time carriers get directly involved in the software on a phone I've seen, it's complete crap | 20:19 |
| TSCHAKeee | and yes, how the carriers lock things down. | 20:19 |
| lbt | In the UK we have a Sale Of Goods act.... and it says that devices must be fit for purpose.... and I think there's an expectation of reasonable duration support.... | 20:19 |
| TSCHAKeee | w00t_, still doesn't change the fact that they do it as a matter of practice, rather than exception. | 20:19 |
| reshwindblade | @w00t_ you mean AT&T's motorola backflip? | 20:19 |
| w00t_ | TSCHAKeee: no idea what you're talking about | 20:19 |
| TSCHAKeee | <w00t_> seriously, every time carriers get directly involved in the software on a phone I've seen, it's complete crap | 20:20 |
| lbt | w00t_: the issue is the business models rely on tying consumers into service contracts | 20:20 |
| w00t_ | still not getting your point | 20:20 |
| w00t_ | if you're saying that it's a matter of practice that they suck at putting together phone firmware, I'd agree | 20:20 |
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| lbt | carriers think they can do that via restrictions and "cool software" that has a logo on it | 20:20 |
| reshwindblade | actually lbt, depends on countries, some country like mine hardly anyone buys from carriers, all buy from normal phone shops | 20:20 |
| w00t_ | lbt: yeah, well, that's one of the reasons I don't bother with a contract | 20:20 |
| TSCHAKeee | that they feel it's in their best interest to mess with the firmware. | 20:20 |
| lbt | reshwindblade: very true... the I8n aspect is hard to grasp | 20:21 |
| TSCHAKeee | cell carriers are still very much into their "island" mentality | 20:21 |
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| lcuk | walled garden | 20:21 |
| TSCHAKeee | in mst of the western world, anyway. | 20:21 |
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| TSCHAKeee | yup | 20:21 |
| lcuk | for XYZ phone user i dont blame them | 20:22 |
| lcuk | reduces support costs, prevents going off the rails etc | 20:22 |
| lbt | the problem arises when they deploy meego to XYZ | 20:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | have you SEEN the average phone user? ... yeah... | 20:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | :P | 20:22 |
| reshwindblade | lbt, malaysia carriers started selling phones but only give a USD 40 discount on a USD 500+ phone. Would you buy a phone with 40 USD discount and be tied to a contract? or pay extra 40 USD and no contract. Sadly all phones here like that so smartphones are not a success yet. | 20:22 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee, of course, and you should also have some respect for them if you want your software on their device | 20:22 |
| TSCHAKeee | OHEMGEE! WHERE IS TEH FACEBOOK APP?! | 20:23 |
| TSCHAKeee | yes. | 20:23 |
| lbt | lcuk: it's hard | 20:23 |
| lbt | so hard | 20:23 |
| lcuk | i would answer that as, well where IS the facebook app | 20:23 |
| lcuk | and look @ w00t_ | 20:23 |
| * w00t_ looks shifty | 20:23 | |
| lbt | facebook user ^^^ | 20:23 |
| TSCHAKeee | Apple did a number on everybody, convincing them that they needed apps | 20:23 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee, one thing you should never do is under estimate your customers | 20:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | (which btw, was a complete about face from their ORIGINAL standpoint on the iPhone, anyone remember that?) | 20:24 |
| * happyblob realizes users have no place here! | 20:24 | |
| reshwindblade | lcuk, remember only UK and US people try to get phones from carriers, rest of the world mostly buys from regular shops | 20:24 |
| lbt | happyblob: not true | 20:24 |
| lbt | happyblob: we encourage learning and participation | 20:24 |
| lbt | ignorance is a great place to start :) | 20:24 |
| TSCHAKeee | don't mind the few of us that are assholes. :) | 20:25 |
| w00t_ | some say it's bliss | 20:25 |
| lbt | what we're not keen on is users who think that they have the answers.... | 20:25 |
| poutsi | the bliss of a light breeze on a hot day until the whale crashes on your head, yes | 20:25 |
| happyblob | okay, my apologies :) | 20:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | or users who want...eeeeeeeeeeverything...spoon...fed...to...them....without chewing on it even.... | 20:26 |
| reshwindblade | TSCHAKeee, so you hate apple fanboys and girls :P | 20:26 |
| w00t_ | the key is to work to educate, not scorn | 20:26 |
| TSCHAKeee | or trolls...but....there is a special hell for trolls.... | 20:26 |
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| TSCHAKeee | reshwindblade, I knew Apple when they were a company making 6502 based computers. Their philosophy was always "We do everything ourselves." .... for many years, they were viewed as overpriced, and arrogant.... While I applaud them for their sensitivity to catering to what consumers want, and their attention to design aesthetics, I have a serious problem with their downright draconian company policies which radiate all the way back to | 20:28 |
| TSCHAKeee | their customers. | 20:28 |
| lcuk | TSCHAKeee, why, they worked hard to get there | 20:29 |
| poutsi | but don't overlook their knack for selling the one thing that people seem to want, whatever it is today | 20:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | as a result, I have always had a love hate relationship with thme | 20:29 |
| reshwindblade | yea i know, they just need to put an Apple logo on a brick and people will say it is easier to user and much more nicer | 20:29 |
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| w00t_ | lcuk: how hard they work is irrelevant, if you object to something, you object to it | 20:29 |
| TSCHAKeee | eh, i have a few stories in that department. they've lied, stolen, and cheated like every other great company. | 20:29 |
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| TSCHAKeee | I try to learn everything I can, from Apple... | 20:30 |
| lcuk | w00t_, sure but you dont have to buy their products | 20:30 |
| reshwindblade | i got a better one, i just graduated, my final year project i decided to try an Iphone app ( get my grades + might sell and make some money ). I made it in Flash CS5 beta, haha got banned straight | 20:30 |
| reshwindblade | i did it before they reworked their SDK of coz | 20:31 |
| TSCHAKeee | what I would likke to see, is more companies striving to reach their sense of UI implementation. | 20:31 |
| w00t_ | lcuk: sure, but your comment seemed to indicate that because "they worked hard", nobody was entitled to disagree with them, which is something I'd also disagree with :p | 20:31 |
| reshwindblade | nokia phones (the low end ones) UI is the best | 20:31 |
| reshwindblade | everyone knows how to use it | 20:31 |
| reshwindblade | compare to Sony Ericson, Samsung | 20:31 |
| lcuk | +100000000000 | 20:31 |
| poutsi | TSCHAKeee, it's not that there aren't people striving, but politricks is killer | 20:31 |
| reshwindblade | too bad not for their higher end phones | 20:31 |
| poutsi | ...or so i've heard :) | 20:32 |
| TSCHAKeee | poutsi, many people refuse to study what makes a good user interface...much less how it relates to other parts of a whole.... look at the vast number of open source/free software projects. | 20:32 |
| TSCHAKeee | most of them simply don't understand how to do it | 20:33 |
| TSCHAKeee | most of those who don't understand, refuse to learn. | 20:33 |
| TSCHAKeee | most who refuse to learn, already think they know how to do it. | 20:33 |
| reshwindblade | i disagree abit, most open source project sometimes just refuse to listen. They develop to suit the developer needs not the user | 20:34 |
| TSCHAKeee | and i agree with that, as well | 20:34 |
| poutsi | ahtisaari said in an interview that nokia should heap on the ux polish in the future | 20:34 |
| poutsi | i hope it happens | 20:35 |
| reshwindblade | when Ubuntu decided to move the close, maximize and minimize to the right side (instead of the standard left), alot of people were against it yet the developer insisted it was for the best | 20:35 |
| w00t_ | put the shoe on the other foot | 20:36 |
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| w00t_ | it could well be that a change (like that) could - in the longer term (esp. with future plans) end up being for the best | 20:36 |
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| w00t_ | but, as a general rule, you can't tell people things like that, because there is always a barrier to change | 20:36 |
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| reshwindblade | unless you are Steve Jobs, then you can tell people | 20:37 |
| reshwindblade | ;) | 20:37 |
| w00t_ | well, no, you can't, I think they likely *would* have issues if they introduced significant change like that | 20:37 |
| w00t_ | but as was indicated earlier, that generally doesn't happen | 20:37 |
| reshwindblade | btw i just noticed twitter accounts for Maemo = some japanese person, and MeeGo = some unknown guy | 20:38 |
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| poutsi | w00t_, I for one hope that people continue to try and, yes, sometimes to fail in that regard | 20:40 |
| poutsi | and not just do the familiar comfortable thing over and over :) | 20:40 |
| w00t_ | poutsi: change things? yeah, it's very healthy that they do | 20:40 |
| w00t_ | without change, what are you left with? stagnation ;) | 20:40 |
| TSCHAKeee | point of all of this i guess.. MeeGo isn't out yet.. it's almost out... and yes.. there is going to be growing pains, confusion, etc.. while everybody adjusts to their roles and gets the ball rolling.... | 20:41 |
| TSCHAKeee | all we can do right now, is basically...wait... | 20:41 |
| poutsi | my thumbs are sore from all the twiddling | 20:41 |
| TSCHAKeee | (for the users, that's waiting on releases.. for the devs, that's waiting on code drops, and then doing shit with them) | 20:41 |
| w00t_ | and in the meantime, talk bullshit on irc like we always do =) | 20:41 |
| TSCHAKeee | but if you want to know what's going on, you have to watch the lists | 20:42 |
| TSCHAKeee | check recent pages on the meego wiki | 20:42 |
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| GAN900 | w00t_, w00t | 21:08 |
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| w00t_ | GAN900: GAN900? :) | 21:08 |
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| GAN900 | w00t_, re talking bullshit on IRC. ;) | 21:09 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 21:09 |
| w00t_ | hey, I didn't name names! :P | 21:09 |
| GAN900 | w00t_, I'm all in favor of it. | 21:10 |
| GAN900 | My favorite pasttime, in fact. :P | 21:10 |
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| reshwindblade | you know this is all logged right? | 21:11 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 21:11 |
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| poutsi | http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/05/google-feedback-for-android.html upcoming android bug reporting stuff looks pretty cool | 21:15 |
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| reshwindblade | u kinda late | 21:18 |
| reshwindblade | anyone who watched Google I/O videos would have been wowed | 21:19 |
| poutsi | ah | 21:19 |
| reshwindblade | it is on youtube you should check in out (not only for Android but other cool stuff) | 21:19 |
| reshwindblade | i recommend part 5 of Day 1 | 21:19 |
| reshwindblade | those are some cool stuff | 21:19 |
| reshwindblade | day 2 = all about Android | 21:19 |
| reshwindblade | anyways since we talking about videos | 21:20 |
| poutsi | thanks, gotta maybe skim it tomorrow then | 21:20 |
| reshwindblade | Mashable has one of Richard Stallman's opinion on Androind/Google http://mashable.com/2010/05/23/google-openness-video/ | 21:20 |
| reshwindblade | :) | 21:20 |
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| poutsi | heh @ second comment | 21:24 |
| poutsi | yeah, what's this stallman guy ever done for us ;) | 21:25 |
| reshwindblade | he created the C compiler? | 21:25 |
| reshwindblade | i think | 21:25 |
| Tm_T | reshwindblade: FUD, but he has given us many good rants! | 21:25 |
| * Tm_T hides | 21:25 | |
| Tm_T | s/FUD/false/ | 21:26 |
| infobot | Tm_T meant: reshwindblade: false, but he has given us many good rants! | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | hey I hate his opinions too and i USE LINUX daily | 21:26 |
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| reshwindblade | lol | 21:26 |
| Tm_T | reshwindblade: I don't hate his opinions (: | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | but we need people like him, he is a devil we hate but also a devil we need | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | :) | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | i believe there must be a mixture between Free + Closed | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | richard only wants totally free | 21:26 |
| Tm_T | not saying that I like either but ... | 21:26 |
| reshwindblade | RMS if you see his speeches in RL | 21:27 |
| Tm_T | there's no such thing as "totally free" | 21:27 |
| reshwindblade | he gets very defensive easily | 21:27 |
| reshwindblade | i had the pleasure of having coffee with him | 21:27 |
| reshwindblade | he kept nagging on how my Linux (ubuntu) had proprietary junk in it | 21:27 |
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| reshwindblade | haha | 21:27 |
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| reshwindblade | trust me, if you meet him in real life, give you 10mins with him, you will want to kill him | 21:28 |
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| poutsi | that's true of a large portion of the smartest people i know | 21:28 |
| poutsi | smartest software people at least | 21:28 |
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| Tm_T | reshwindblade: well, did you have? | 21:29 |
| poutsi | well, not perhaps exactly literally true as in *actually* kill but they certainly can be annoying | 21:29 |
| reshwindblade | but i respect RMS contribution in the past, if not for him we wont have such cool desktop OS and mobile OS now | 21:29 |
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| poutsi | unless one can distance oneself from the debate | 21:29 |
| reshwindblade | and yes I had coffee with him sitting accross of me, Tm_T | 21:30 |
| reshwindblade | he kinda likes to debate and force his opinions on you | 21:30 |
| Tm_T | reshwindblade: no, I mean did you have proprietary junk? | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | like most of his fans.. | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:30 |
| reshwindblade | yes | 21:30 |
| Tm_T | reshwindblade: shame on you! | 21:30 |
| reshwindblade | to him Ubuntu's kernel itself is that junk | 21:30 |
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| * Tm_T huggles his nvidia binary drivers & stuff | 21:31 | |
| reshwindblade | coz he said Linus Torvalds has put some prorietary junk inside the kernel | 21:31 |
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| reshwindblade | seriously if u follow him you must only use Free Software Foundation approved Linux | 21:31 |
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| reshwindblade | like Maemo, Moblin, MeeGo all cannot exist according to him | 21:31 |
| poutsi | that shouldn't really be surprising :) | 21:31 |
| reshwindblade | Ovi store (or Intel's App Up store) will 100% be closed | 21:32 |
| poutsi | maybe you should've asked him where all the big hurd distros are then :) | 21:32 |
| reshwindblade | according to him this is wrong | 21:32 |
| reshwindblade | FOSS.my 2009, even the KDE and Gnome developers warned me he is an ass, I didnt listen taught it was cool to go have dinner with him | 21:33 |
| reshwindblade | LOL | 21:33 |
| reshwindblade | he says MySQL, Debian = bad stuff | 21:33 |
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| reshwindblade | anyways mine wasnt so bad | 21:33 |
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| reshwindblade | the guy beside me had windows vista on his laptop | 21:34 |
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| reshwindblade | it was a sheer joy to see him got blasted :D | 21:34 |
| Tm_T | reshwindblade: I think he had used to it, using Vista daily is like getting blasted | 21:34 |
| Tm_T | or that's my short experience anyway | 21:35 |
| reshwindblade | after XP, i changed to Ubuntu, so I wouldnt know, I only troubleshoot vista/7 for friends, and it is a pain | 21:35 |
| reshwindblade | actually i think 50% of people here will be on Mac/Linux | 21:36 |
| reshwindblade | thats what I noticed most "pro" dev use | 21:36 |
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| JayElOpia | hello everyone | 22:26 |
| pupnik | huhuhuyhy | 22:26 |
| JayElOpia | Newbie here | 22:26 |
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| JayElOpia | hello | 22:31 |
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| JayElOpia | hello everyone | 22:41 |
| reshwindblade | hi | 22:41 |
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| reshwindblade | anything? | 22:42 |
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| JayElOpia | yeah whats going on? | 22:44 |
| reshwindblade | what you mean by that | 22:45 |
| JayElOpia | reshwinblade just queried u | 22:45 |
| JayElOpia | check | 22:45 |
| reshwindblade | sorry dont understand what you mean | 22:46 |
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| JayElOpia | im currently chatting wiv u in private | 22:47 |
| JayElOpia | check | 22:47 |
| reshwindblade | i dont think you ar in private | 22:48 |
| reshwindblade | my lame IRC clients doesnt allow it | 22:48 |
| JayElOpia | ooo i c | 22:49 |
| reshwindblade | just ask any question here | 22:49 |
| JayElOpia | pardon me then | 22:49 |
| reshwindblade | ill answer if i can | 22:49 |
| reshwindblade | :) | 22:49 |
| JayElOpia | so what u done meego? | 22:49 |
| reshwindblade | i have done nothing, but MeeGo is preparing for a preview release soon, hopefully next few days | 22:49 |
| reshwindblade | might be may 31st hopefully | 22:50 |
| JayElOpia | ok | 22:50 |
| JayElOpia | i thot they already had stuff for folks to download and play with | 22:50 |
| reshwindblade | got but it is the "core" | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | no UI yet | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | i would suggest wait few more days for the UI to be added | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | much better to play with | 22:51 |
| JayElOpia | ok Lol! | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | there is stuff you can download from the site today | 22:51 |
| JayElOpia | will be patient then | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | but that one is for "pure geeks" | 22:51 |
| reshwindblade | think of it like a terminal/shell | 22:51 |
| JayElOpia | hmmmn | 22:52 |
| reshwindblade | unless you want play with that | 22:52 |
| JayElOpia | well i dont mind | 22:52 |
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| JayElOpia | dnt need to be a geek to try... | 22:52 |
| JayElOpia | wt ya fink? | 22:52 |
| reshwindblade | well I am waiting for 1.0 (which hopefully few days more) | 22:52 |
| reshwindblade | but if you really cannot wait can always youtube | 22:52 |
| reshwindblade | you can see it here :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub_cwsJnQps | 22:53 |
| reshwindblade | on what meego is all about | 22:53 |
| reshwindblade | you will get the idea | 22:53 |
| JayElOpia | ok | 22:53 |
| reshwindblade | or you can check out the blog http://meego.com/community/blogs/dawnfoster/2010/meego-presentations-linux-foundation-collaboration-summit there is some presentation (slides + video of the keynote) | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | its loading... | 22:54 |
| reshwindblade | or just wait :) | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | ok | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | ima check out what u given me | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | and prolly wait | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | thanks man | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | hey... isnt there a way we can chat | 22:54 |
| JayElOpia | privately? | 22:55 |
| reshwindblade | there is but for now I am not using an IRC client which supports it | 22:55 |
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| JayElOpia | being a newbie and stuff... some folks mite be put off by my naievty | 22:55 |
| JayElOpia | yeah u said so b4 | 22:55 |
| pupnik | learn linux | 22:56 |
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| JayElOpia | hey where'd he go @reshwindblade | 22:58 |
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| Stskeeps | evening DawnFoster, bspencer | 23:19 |
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| bspencer | Stskeeps, hello | 23:25 |
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| JayElOpia | hi | 23:25 |
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