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| DeuX | Hi, I'm really really new here... is there any where I can find list of devices using MeeGo yet ? | 01:44 |
|---|---|---|
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| leinir | DeuX: No - seeing as there's no MeeGo to use yet ;) | 01:45 |
| DeuX | hi Leinir :) | 01:46 |
| leinir | Hello :) | 01:46 |
| DeuX | I am kinda hyped :) | 01:46 |
| leinir | *giggles* Don't blame you :) | 01:46 |
| DeuX | I am looking for a touch based device... base on QT will definitely be excellent | 01:47 |
| DeuX | I cross my finger that MeeGo can be virtualized easily on at least vmware | 01:47 |
| DeuX | and the download site is also empty ? or am I looking at the wrong thing ? | 01:47 |
| leinir | No, you're looking in the right place - but as i said, there's no MeeGo to download yet :) | 01:47 |
| leinir | They're still working on getting the code ready for public eyes :) | 01:48 |
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| DeuX | any idea whether I can run in any virtualized env ? | 01:48 |
| leinir | When it gets released, i suspect that would be doable, yeah :) | 01:49 |
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| leinir | DeuX: What sort of size device are you after? :) | 01:50 |
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| jykae | I guess there won't be big differences to maemo in the first release, if I'm right | 01:51 |
| leinir | all that's speculation, and we've really no way of knowing yet :) | 01:53 |
| jykae | right | 01:53 |
| leinir | i've heard people speculate that there really won't be big differences to moblin in the first release... | 01:53 |
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| leinir | and with the two platforms being sort of different, that's unlikely to both be true ;) | 01:54 |
| CosmoHill | i think there is a meeting tomorrow where release timeline is discussed | 01:54 |
| leinir | The first meeting of the technical steering group's tomorrow, yeah :) | 01:54 |
| CosmoHill | 20:00 UTC | 01:55 |
| leinir | So, in twenty hours and five minutes :) | 01:56 |
| leinir | (for those without functioning digital watches ;) ) | 01:56 |
| DeuX | I'm looking for some table size device | 01:56 |
| jykae | waiting eagerly to get hands on to development kit :) I want to learn and make meego programs | 01:56 |
| DeuX | something like iPad kinda size :P | 01:56 |
| DeuX | or netbook ? | 01:57 |
| leinir | DeuX: Right, well in that case i guess the Touchbook might be an interesting possibility :) | 01:57 |
| CosmoHill | HP do tablets | 01:57 |
| CosmoHill | guy at uni has one | 01:57 |
| CosmoHill | god forbid it would run something other than windows... | 01:57 |
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| DeuX | touchbook ? | 01:59 |
| leinir | www.alwaysinnovating.com | 01:59 |
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| DeuX | interesting | 02:00 |
| leinir | (i've got one - really nice piece of kit, but needs meego ;) ) | 02:00 |
| DeuX | thanks leinir | 02:00 |
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| DeuX | leinir: does it has Qt supprt built in ? or at least C++ compilier so that I can extend ? | 02:01 |
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| leinir | it sort of does - but that's why i say it needs meego :) | 02:01 |
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| CosmoHill | DeuX: maybe a modbook | 02:02 |
| leinir | AIOS (the ånström variant on it) is a little odd... and while it does have an ubuntu variant on it as well in the more recent versions of the OS image, it's still, well... ubuntu :) | 02:02 |
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| leinir | But with the hardware in it basically being the same as in the N900, it would be relatively straight forward to get meego on there, from what i understand :) | 02:04 |
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| CosmoHill | I've worked out that I have todo 19,000 words next year | 02:05 |
| CosmoHill | should i be scared? | 02:05 |
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| DeuX | anyway gotta go.... see ya all | 02:17 |
| DeuX | be back later | 02:17 |
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| CosmoHill | bye | 02:27 |
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| Edward_ | hello everyone | 04:28 |
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| DrZeus | hi all | 06:03 |
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| Stskeeps | morning qgil :) | 09:14 |
| qgil | heya | 09:15 |
| * thiago_home looks at the internal Nokia meego mailing list after one day not reading it and wonders if someone caused a flamewar | 09:16 | |
| thiago_home | not even the RPM vs DEB discussion caused 100 emails in one day, did it? | 09:17 |
| Stskeeps | don't think so, but people had to join the list first | 09:18 |
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| thiago_home | same thing about this one | 09:21 |
| thiago_home | I sent qgil an email about it on Monday | 09:21 |
| thiago_home | but, then again, Nokia people don't have ML skills: they are cross-posting to other MLs and doing reply-to-all | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: added you with founder flag and DawnFoster as op on #meego-meeting so you can set moderated channel mode tonight - I would have given founder flag to both of you, but only 4 founders is allowed :P | 09:21 |
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| qgil | Stskeeps: is there anything I should learn? I have never got meaningful permission in a IRC channel... | 09:24 |
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| thiago_home | on Freenode, you almost never need it | 09:25 |
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| Stskeeps | qgil: sec, preparing a crash course | 09:25 |
| thiago_home | Stskeeps: just make sure the channel isn't mlocked to -m | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: yeah, checking that | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: /msg chanserv op #meego-meeting ops you, /mode #meego-meeting +m sets moderated mode (only ops and voices can speak), /mode #meego-meeting +v nickname makes someone have voice flag, .. at the end of it all, /mode #meego-meeting -m | 09:26 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: if there's any issues during the meeting feel free to prod me | 09:27 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: sure | 09:27 |
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| qgil | thiago_home: yesterday night I got again the question about Qt governance - second time in 2 weeks and nobody had asked me that ever before | 09:28 |
| qgil | thiago_home: and from another FDO prominent | 09:29 |
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| thiago_home | contribution model info is online | 09:31 |
| thiago_home | point them there | 09:32 |
| thiago_home | suggestions on how to improve are all welcome | 09:32 |
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| GAN900 | Internal lists. Open indeed. :rolleyes: | 09:37 |
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| thiago_home | GAN900: huh? | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | EVERY company has internal lists | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | this is an internal list for meego discussion | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | so what? | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | we have one to discuss the competition | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | we have one to discuss open source | 09:38 |
| thiago_home | we have one to discuss sport in Oslo | 09:39 |
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| RST38h | Ah you conspiring bastards! | 09:40 |
| * RST38h goes to find some tar and feathers =) | 09:41 | |
| Stskeeps | conspiring about making meego summit a sports event in oslo, obviously | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 09:41 |
| RST38h | More seriously though, I doubt there is going any "open qt governance", especially considering that Qt is being used in Symbian as well | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | what does open governance mean anyway? democracy doesn't work for sure :P | 09:42 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: I doubt people who advocate it ever think of what it means | 09:42 |
| Anssi__ | Open source is not surely a democracy :) | 09:43 |
| RST38h | Details are boring and cause all kinds of ugly consequences :) | 09:43 |
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| Stskeeps | Anssi__: it all bends down to commit access :P | 09:44 |
| Anssi__ | Stskeeps, yes, and that is a good thing, focus is on doing things. | 09:45 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 09:45 |
| * Stskeeps is a big fan of that you have a right to complain about things after contributing (or trying to) | 09:45 | |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:45 |
| Stskeeps | but not before | 09:46 |
| GAN900 | thiago, then the "everything will happen in the open in MeeGo" refrain I keep hearing should probably be dialed down. | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: if it's discussion and not decision-making by the project, i think they do have a right to discuss things internally as well without being afraid of NDA breaches.. | 09:51 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, oh, I don't disagree | 09:51 |
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| GAN900 | Waking up at 3 in the morning for no reason and reading insanity on Talk tends to put me in the trolling mood. | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | oh, right, voting | 09:52 |
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| * Stskeeps ponders to vote by merit instead of mission | 09:52 | |
| GAN900 | It's just vaguely hypocritical after all the talk I keep hearing. ;) | 09:52 |
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| * Stskeeps just hopes the best for the bootstrap tonight | 09:56 | |
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| GAN900 | I suspect a lot of people will be hugely disappointed. | 09:57 |
| Stskeeps | at least we'll know by then | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | and people can then take situation to heart, fork, fight, etc | 09:59 |
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| Anssi__ | GAN900, there are always alternative platforms. Too early to cry for closeness, it is how developers make it. | 10:04 |
| GAN900 | Anssi__, don't worry about convincing me. I'm just trolling idly. ;) | 10:04 |
| Anssi__ | i am trying convince myself too ;) | 10:05 |
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| qgil | I guess in free software projects governance = roadmapping | 10:30 |
| qgil | but roadmaping in free software projects is not always the same as roadmapping in a company roadmap | 10:30 |
| qgil | but then you have free software projects driven by a company | 10:30 |
| qgil | so... how is roadmapping there? :) | 10:30 |
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| qgil | in free software projects governance is also (and actually more important than roadmapping) commit rights | 10:31 |
| qgil | so... OSS governance = commit rights + roadmapping? | 10:32 |
| qgil | GAN900: the internal discussion thiago refers to makes sense inside Nokia | 10:33 |
| qgil | GAN900: if it would be public you would be rolling your eyes even more | 10:33 |
| qgil | GAN900: saying "why can't they figure out this before?" | 10:33 |
| GAN900 | Yes, qgil, I get it. Goes back to that confusing Harmattan stuff. | 10:33 |
| robsta | qgil: commit rights != maintainership | 10:33 |
| Anssi__ | sounds like sifting from chain of command to politics. | 10:33 |
| * GAN900 <- trolling | 10:33 | |
| robsta | commit rights don't mean much if you're not the maintainer | 10:34 |
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| Anssi__ | participating is key word | 10:34 |
| Anssi__ | keyword | 10:34 |
| qgil | so... OSS governance = maintenance - simple as that | 10:34 |
| GAN900 | Having a voice seems reasonably open enough in a company run open source project. | 10:34 |
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| GAN900 | Don't need to steer or have final say, but having A say is important. | 10:35 |
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| qgil | GAN900: having A say does depend on your involvement developing or deployeing a piece of software | 10:35 |
| qgil | GAN900: I think Qt has already that level | 10:35 |
| Anssi__ | is symbian on that level too? | 10:36 |
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| qgil | Anssi__: http://www.symbian.org/members/member-programs/governance | 10:40 |
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| Anssi__ | council look very closed in terms of represented communities. | 10:43 |
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| Stskeeps | GAN900: i wonder if a political talk ban on election week would be good | 10:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:45 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, as far as? | 10:45 |
| Stskeeps | as in giving the voters peace to think about the candidates - we have no political discussion while an election is on, here :P | 10:46 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, oh, the thread. | 10:46 |
| GAN900 | Yeah, bizarre | 10:46 |
| qgil | thiago writes "Yes, I added that warning in Qt 4.6" (if all product managers would have 10% of Thiago's technical experience have no doubt this would be a better world) | 10:47 |
| GAN900 | I'll just stick to palm greasing and blackmail, then. :P | 10:47 |
| Anssi__ | i think this is better link for foss governance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_governance | 10:47 |
| qgil | Anssi__: "better link"? you asked for Symbian governance :) | 10:48 |
| qgil | Anssi__: "Some envision this form of governance as a post-national "virtual state" governing structure" | 10:49 |
| qgil | sorry but with my European background I have difficulties readiong after that point | 10:49 |
| Anssi__ | qgil, not really link, just you opinion how OSS governance work on different developer communities, e.g. Symbian and Qt | 10:49 |
| qgil | let's have a 100 post thread about OSS governance! ;) | 10:50 |
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| qgil | question from a rpm ignorant: do Fedora or OpenSuse have an equivalent to http://wiki.debian.org/DebianExperimental ? | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | well, they have many seperate repositories instead i think, where debian centers around one | 11:54 |
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| zaheerm-lp | qgil, fedora has rawhide | 11:57 |
| zaheerm-lp | qgil, not sure about suse | 11:57 |
| mmeeks | qgil: openSUSE has openSUSE:Factory | 11:57 |
| mmeeks | qgil: which is the latest, greatest bleeding edge stuff. | 11:57 |
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| qgil | zaheerm-lp mmeeks thanks, that was quick | 12:02 |
| zaheerm-lp | qgil, yw | 12:02 |
| qgil | (and no wonder my search skills abnd my Debian terminology didn't bring me anywhere after 5 minutes) ;) | 12:02 |
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| lcuk | qgil, in a new country a guidebook and dictionary is good. we should all have those headsets from BCN and a personal translator :D | 12:04 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: feel free to add a wiki page w/ initial terminology translations ;-) | 12:05 |
| mikhas | lcuk, babelfish? | 12:05 |
| lcuk | i was thinking more a wiki page, but that will suffice lol | 12:06 |
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| qgil | I enjoy learning a new English word almost every six months, when a new Ubuntu release starts | 12:39 |
| w00t | qgil: *grin* | 12:40 |
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| slaine | it's also lots of fun to guess what the next release will be called | 12:40 |
| w00t | mangy manatee | 12:41 |
| slaine | Ubuntu 10.10 Maggoty Monkey | 12:41 |
| slaine | see, hours of fun | 12:41 |
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| qgil | m? I'm expecting the next Ubuntu release to go for "l·l", which has even an own Unicode graph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%BF#Catalan | 12:48 |
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| slaine | 10.04 IS the L release | 12:49 |
| slaine | Lucid Lynx | 12:49 |
| qgil | sure, I mean after Lucid Lynx | 12:49 |
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| mikhas | what does it mean? is it short for tie fighter? | 12:50 |
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| qgil | after that we could consider "ll", which is counted as one letter in Spanish | 12:50 |
| qgil | (and I'm joking, just in case it was not clear) ;) | 12:51 |
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| slaine | I'm totally confused | 12:52 |
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| zaheerm | qgil, :) | 13:04 |
| zaheerm | slaine, there is a letter that is written as 2 consecutive ls | 13:04 |
| zaheerm | but is considered a single letter | 13:04 |
| zaheerm | and goes in alphabet between l and m | 13:04 |
| slaine | I gathered :) | 13:07 |
| zaheerm | and has a very different pronounciation to 2 consecutive ls in english | 13:10 |
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| pupnik | http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7345/1.html NILFS filesystem for solid state drives. logs, versions, rollbacks | 13:31 |
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| * thiago wonders if after the 26th release we'll go for Æ or Ä | 13:35 | |
| slaine | pupnik: cool, I meant to read that when it first came out but never got around to it :) | 13:35 |
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| w00t | thiago: :-) | 13:36 |
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| pupnik | im liking this rollback your screwups ability | 13:36 |
| Stskeeps | zfs :P | 13:36 |
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| thiago | Maemo had trouble finding wind names for the I release | 13:36 |
| slaine | was talk of using btrfs for this. I know fedora where looking at it | 13:36 |
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| pupnik | id like a sysrem that goes to last known bootable state when it cant boot fully | 13:37 |
| slaine | fecking site, no print version of the article | 13:37 |
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| thiago | I don't know if the Harmattan++ codename has been revealed yet | 13:38 |
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| slaine | thiago: MeeGo 1.1 ? | 13:39 |
| slaine | ;) | 13:39 |
| thiago | we still refer to the Harmattan++ release by its codename | 13:40 |
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| thiago | even though it's a full MeeGo version (I don't know _which_) | 13:40 |
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| lcuk | i wonder where codenames come from, is there an app i can download to generate new project codenames? | 13:41 |
| Guest79331 | lcuk: just google for all the ubuntu naming jokes | 13:41 |
| thiago | like www.classnamer.com | 13:41 |
| thiago | we use that for Qt :-) | 13:41 |
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| Votan | nah, easier than that. smash ur head 4 times against the keyboard in a 90° angle. | 13:41 |
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| lcuk | lol thiago why doesnt that surprise me! | 13:42 |
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| * lcuk prefers lower case c names, its easier to type | 13:42 | |
| thiago | _ is a shift-key | 13:42 |
| thiago | it's like Git's @{u} | 13:42 |
| * thiago has export U=@{u} | 13:42 | |
| thiago | so I can just use $U | 13:43 |
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| burchr | thiago: hahaha. | 13:43 |
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| * burchr bookmarks that | 13:45 | |
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| odin_ | haha | 14:40 |
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| slaine | hmmm, qtcreator doesn't run on Lucid on my netbook | 15:04 |
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| slaine | Oh, it does run, it just takes about 3 minutes to load | 15:06 |
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| tekojo | slaine and it eats 100% of one cpu core | 15:12 |
| tekojo | not nice | 15:12 |
| tekojo | Looks like it is the version in lucid :( | 15:13 |
| slaine | tekojo: at least it wasn't just my install | 15:14 |
| slaine | thanks | 15:14 |
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| tekojo | no, I see the same in a Karmic install with the kubuntu ppa | 15:15 |
| tekojo | so something is wrong in the recent compiles | 15:16 |
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| slaine | Is there a way of getting apt-get install to also install suggested packages ? | 15:23 |
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| odin_ | where is the "WG meeting" taking place ? in this channel at the time ? | 15:25 |
| odin_ | ah the tinyurl reveals all http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting in #meego-meeting | 15:26 |
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| Termana | odin_: Six and a half hours from now :P | 15:32 |
| Termana | Damn it read the question wrong | 15:32 |
| Termana | But still | 15:32 |
| Stskeeps | will be interesting to see how many show up - maybe everyone lost hope by now :P | 15:35 |
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| slaine | I'm eager to get to it | 15:36 |
| slaine | but family life might get in the way | 15:36 |
| Stskeeps | that's what you have a n900 for ;) | 15:37 |
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| tekojo | slaine bribe your family somehow? | 15:43 |
| Stskeeps | candy and disney movies and a bottle of wine for the wife? | 15:43 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:43 |
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| slaine | sounds like a plan | 15:44 |
| burchr | lol | 15:45 |
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| burchr | when -is- the meeting again? | 15:45 |
| slaine | 8pm for me which falls square into bed times | 15:45 |
| burchr | Stskeeps: can you ping me? coz knowing me I'll probably have trouble remembering | 15:45 |
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| Stskeeps | burchr: i'll try, but i will be on my way back from polish classes | 15:46 |
| burchr | hehe | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | set a calendar item.. | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:46 |
| burchr | can you curse yet? | 15:46 |
| burchr | :P | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | it's hard to avoid learning polish curse words, they don't have many | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:46 |
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| qgil | speaking of governance, which free software projects you think that excel in that sense? Very useful if they have corporate involvement as well | 16:31 |
| qgil | ah, Dave had written http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/02/20/governance-best-practices/ | 16:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | opensolaris :) | 16:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'd be curious to hear about people's opinions of Apache and Eclipse | 16:43 |
| timeless_mbp | (or OpenOffice and NetBeans for that matter) | 16:43 |
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| robsta | qgil: linux kernel | 16:45 |
| timeless_mbp | robsta: that's covered by qgil's link ;-b | 16:45 |
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| robsta | "come but bring code" | 16:46 |
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| robsta | anyway i don't think you can easily compare how heterogeneous projects like maemo and gnome work with linux kernel / inkscape / svn etc | 16:48 |
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| qgil | robsta: Linux kernel governance goes around a dictator. What projects would you recommend if you don't have one individual for that (or if the dictator happens to be a company) | 16:53 |
| Stskeeps | FreeBSD? | 16:53 |
| timeless_mbp | there's a dictator there too ;-) | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | really? | 16:54 |
| robsta | qgil: the hierarchical model makes sense for, let's call it "single source tree" project | 16:54 |
| robsta | s | 16:54 |
| timeless_mbp | oops, sorry, Theo de Raadt is probably OpenBSD | 16:55 |
| robsta | if the dictator is a company, well, what would i recommend? play by their rules, or fork, or go elsewhere? | 16:55 |
| robsta | are there other options? | 16:55 |
| robsta | dictator sounds bad, let's just call it maintainer shall we? | 16:56 |
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| Stskeeps | interesting, freebsd is actually governed by the committers voting 9 people into a core team | 16:57 |
| timeless_mbp | robsta: anyway, opensolaris has a governing board which is elected | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | (which then gives out commit bits etc) | 16:57 |
| timeless_mbp | it's probably not too far from how freebsd works | 16:57 |
| timeless_mbp | committers get grants for a certain time period | 16:57 |
| robsta | i think linux has a de facto core community too | 16:57 |
| timeless_mbp | and their grants need to be renewed | 16:57 |
| robsta | it's just not by vode | 16:58 |
| robsta | vote | 16:58 |
| Stskeeps | well, it's a meritocracy | 16:58 |
| Stskeeps | (with a dictator on top) | 16:58 |
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| qgil | we have models that emerge from 1-few individuals starting writing code and then one day they have created a monster :) | 17:00 |
| qgil | and we have models that emerge from the work started in a company, but then being interesting also for other developers, individuals and companies, that want to have some influence | 17:01 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: anyway, someone should find someone who likes apache/eclipse/openoffice | 17:01 |
| qgil | one intriguing is WebKit | 17:01 |
| robsta | voting is overrated | 17:01 |
| timeless_mbp | i'd argue webkit is a "doesn't work" model | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | isn't this a new form, trying to create a project top down with existing communities? | 17:01 |
| qgil | you can find a lot of criticisc | 17:01 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: well, webkit is probably close | 17:01 |
| timeless_mbp | there was the kde group | 17:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and an apple group | 17:02 |
| qgil | but they actually have plenty of contributors from different companies and individuals | 17:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and they tried to unify | 17:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and then another one or two groups come by | 17:02 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: the problem w/ webkit is that in reality it's a system where no one plays fair or shows all their cards | 17:02 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: I know, but they are going far, and fast | 17:03 |
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| qgil | I'm not defending, just trying to learn :) | 17:03 |
| robsta | if you vote you may end up with people on the board who can't work together | 17:03 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: i'm sick, but if i wasn't, i'd show you an example of some group going very far off the edge of a cliff | 17:03 |
| timeless_mbp | it's amusing if you don't have to talk to them | 17:03 |
| timeless_mbp | but they're in your building | 17:03 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: no idea and I care about public examples :) | 17:04 |
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| lle2 | Linux kernel may look like dictatorship, but it happens to have a very special kind of dictator, one who basically doesn't like power too much | 17:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | qgil: webkit is a public example, sadly, the guys doing this wrong are just well… using it incorrectly based on bad or misinterpreted advice from some group which is presumably a 'contributor' to webkit | 17:06 |
| timeless_mbp | lle2: so, let's put it like this: everyone knows the Linux Kernel exists | 17:06 |
| timeless_mbp | when someone especially anyone involved in MeeGo asks for suggestions of models, it's pretty obvious they're looking for other examples or models | 17:06 |
| timeless_mbp | if qgil *didn't* know the linux kernel existed, we'd have a serious problem | 17:07 |
| timeless_mbp | but you have to have some faith and confidence that he isn't that incompetent (he's very competent!) | 17:07 |
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| * timeless_mbp sips tea | 17:08 | |
| lle2 | I'm not sure I know what we're arguing about, I only pointed out that the Kernel is not necessarily very easily duplicated as a community, and understanding why it works requires you to drink large amounts of beer | 17:08 |
| timeless_mbp | your most recent statement is much more useful than your previous statement | 17:08 |
| lle2 | \o/ | 17:09 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm suggesting "mod previous down: redundant; mod latest up: informative" | 17:09 |
| timeless_mbp | but, in terms of benevolent dictators who don't want too much power, Mozilla has one of those | 17:10 |
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| timeless_mbp | (please note that i've spent my entire life in that area and this is my first mention in this conversation, after mentioning half a dozen other projects) | 17:10 |
| timeless_mbp | s/life/professional life/ | 17:10 |
| infobot | timeless_mbp meant: (please note that i've spent my entire professional life in that area and this is my first mention in this conversation, after mentioning half a dozen other projects) | 17:10 |
| robsta | the kernel is indeed interesting, because people who are serious about it just make it work for themselves instead of whining too much when they can't get their patches upstream | 17:11 |
| timeless_mbp | note that "work for themselves" often means "ship a binary with a patch which hasn't been accepted (and won't be) upstream" | 17:12 |
| lle2 | Kernel also benefits very much from being by far the one with most prestige in getting your patches into | 17:12 |
| timeless_mbp | is that true? | 17:12 |
| timeless_mbp | ohloh i think would argue it isn't :) | 17:12 |
| lle2 | :D | 17:12 |
| lle2 | I don't think any other project has such abundance of eager developers | 17:13 |
| timeless_mbp | https://www.ohloh.net/people/rankings | 17:13 |
| qgil | anything in the freedesktop.org area? | 17:14 |
| timeless_mbp | of projects, arguably getting a patch into putty is more prestigious | 17:14 |
| qgil | is anybody governing DBus? | 17:14 |
| qgil | or is it a bus without rider atm? :) | 17:14 |
| qgil | (and full of kids, btw) | 17:14 |
| qgil | how RedHat governs projects is interesting | 17:14 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah fedora's board is interesting | 17:15 |
| timeless_mbp | and presumably gnome foundation, but again, you should know that ;-) | 17:15 |
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| lle2 | fedora would be interesting if they would ship a distro that cares about its users </sniping> | 17:16 |
| timeless_mbp | lle2: fedora, nokia, same thing ;-) | 17:16 |
| lle2 | heh | 17:16 |
| qgil | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board interesting | 17:17 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: do you need wiki links, or can i trust you to find them for things i've mentioned? :) | 17:18 |
| qgil | well, the GNOME Foundation implies a significant overhead (e.g. sustaining a Foundation), there is an advisory board... | 17:18 |
| qgil | it makes sense in the way the GNOME project was created and evolved, being quite decentralized since the first day | 17:18 |
| qgil | (or the second) | 17:18 |
| qgil | but nowdays and for a project lead by a company... dunno | 17:18 |
| timeless_mbp | http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Community+Group+ogb/ | 17:18 |
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| Myrtti | good morning :-) | 17:19 |
| * timeless_mbp checks Myrtti's clock | 17:20 | |
| timeless_mbp | did you fly to hawaii ? | 17:20 |
| Myrtti | no, Silicon Valley. ohai from Sunnyvale | 17:20 |
| timeless_mbp | whatcha doin there? :) | 17:20 |
| timeless_mbp | http://council.openoffice.org/ is openoffice's | 17:21 |
| Myrtti | sitting in a Herman Miller chair, drinking coffee and trying to redo our marketing stuff | 17:21 |
| timeless_mbp | http://netbeans.org/about/os/governance.html is netbean's | 17:21 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/ is eclipse's | 17:21 |
| qgil | OpenSolaris looks too formal and complicated on the paper (or web page), dunno how it works in practice | 17:22 |
| timeless_mbp | in practice ogb is fairly handsoff | 17:22 |
| timeless_mbp | they basically accept/grant charters for other groups | 17:22 |
| timeless_mbp | the other groups then do what's in their charter | 17:22 |
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| Myrtti | oh, in theory I'm on vacation this week. | 17:23 |
| timeless_mbp | in practice i'm sick this week :( | 17:23 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html is Apache's | 17:23 |
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| timeless_mbp | i suspect that apache/gnome represent things which are too large | 17:23 |
| lle2 | are we trying to find a governance model for MeeGo? | 17:24 |
| timeless_mbp | (they're really umbrellas) | 17:24 |
| timeless_mbp | <qgil> speaking of governance, which free software projects you think that excel in that sense? Very useful if they have corporate involvement as well | 17:24 |
| timeless_mbp | that was the original question. it's technically vague about the point of the question, but... | 17:25 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, in terms of bad models, i'd propose Symbian ;-) | 17:25 |
| timeless_mbp | and before people complain that I don't have anything to do with symbian, that's incorrect :) | 17:25 |
| lle2 | would be useful to keep it in mind and cross-check everything, just to see we're not duplicating | 17:25 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://www.symbian.org/about-us/how-we-operate is Symbian's | 17:26 |
| leinir | personally i like how KDE does it... but it might be a detractor that it requires a yearly physical meeting of the membership... | 17:26 |
| lle2 | I don't think it's a problem to have to meet in person at least once a year | 17:27 |
| timeless_mbp | http://ev.kde.org/corporate/board.php ? | 17:27 |
| leinir | timeless_mbp: Yup - or specifically the e.V. system | 17:27 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, i suppose i might as well mention w3 while i'm at it | 17:27 |
| timeless_mbp | it isn't software, but it's probably interesting | 17:28 |
| lle2 | Khronos too | 17:28 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.w3.org/Consortium/facts#org is probably the best i can find for a starting point, sorry | 17:28 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.khronos.org/members/benefits/ is all i can find for khronos | 17:29 |
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| timeless_mbp | sorry :(.. khronos is indeed interesting they're softer than w3 and for certain things people have specifically chosen to work w/ them instead | 17:30 |
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| lle2 | talking of web gl? | 17:30 |
| * timeless_mbp nods | 17:30 | |
| lle2 | yea, that seems to go pretty well | 17:31 |
| * timeless_mbp wonders about opentype | 17:31 | |
| timeless_mbp | ok, opentype is part of ISO in the MPEG section | 17:32 |
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| qgil | thanks timeless_mbp | 17:34 |
| qgil | lle2: not exactly, MeeGo has already a governance mode set and it's about polishing it | 17:34 |
| timeless_mbp | i think it's probably safe to ignore ISO | 17:34 |
| timeless_mbp | they're amusing, but… > While ISO defines itself as a non-governmental organization, its ability to set standards that often become law, either through treaties or national standards, makes it more powerful than most non-governmental organizations. | 17:35 |
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| qgil | ok, thaks for the links and the thoughts! | 17:37 |
| lle2 | qgil: this one http://meego.com/about/governance ? | 17:37 |
| qgil | trying to disconnect a bit now before the TSG meeting, seeya later | 17:37 |
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| lle2 | I'd like to have more clear definitions for a few things | 17:37 |
| qgil | lle2: ask the TSG ;) | 17:37 |
| timeless_mbp | offhand meego's model seems to be similar to symbian's | 17:37 |
| timeless_mbp | and i consider symbian's a failure :) | 17:37 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: ????? | 17:37 |
| timeless_mbp | actually, sorry, symbian's is http://www.symbian.org/members/member-programs/governance | 17:38 |
| lle2 | qgil: mainly about are things voted on, are the votes binding, do the two founders have veto rights :) | 17:38 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: symbian has a foundation, members an etc | 17:39 |
| qgil | but I really had enough of PC in a row today :) | 17:39 |
| qgil | see you later | 17:39 |
| lle2 | kk | 17:39 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: it also seems to have steering committees and things which i think are probably working groups | 17:39 |
| timeless_mbp | afaict it doesn't "work", and certainly not _in the open_ | 17:39 |
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| lle2 | we'd need to have standard rules for working groups, otherwise it'll be a mess :D | 17:39 |
| timeless_mbp | perhaps i should underline my definition of 'success' and 'failure' | 17:39 |
| timeless_mbp | working behind closed doors is a basic definition of failure | 17:40 |
| timeless_mbp | and for that, Symbian (today, not necessarily in 6 months, just today) is a failure | 17:40 |
| lle2 | nothing wrong with keeping doors closed when it's winter | 17:40 |
| lle2 | but yea, if you're running a community thing, closed doors create problems | 17:41 |
| timeless_mbp | there's snow on the ground here, but i have my windows open | 17:41 |
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| timeless_mbp | … course, i'm sick, so expecting me to be a good judge of temperature is probably a bad idea... | 17:41 |
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| timeless_mbp | oddly, a random browse through Symbian's groups shows something much closer to W3C than i'd have imagined | 17:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | anyway, i have specs to read, and q.gil has a meeting to enjoy | 17:42 |
| * timeless_mbp goes to make more tea | 17:42 | |
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| lle2 | is the meeting on this channel? | 17:43 |
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| lle2 | or there another one with exclusive invite only VIP guest lists... ;p | 17:43 |
| vilvo | no, it's another channel | 17:43 |
| timeless_mbp | is it invite only? | 17:44 |
| vilvo | not exclusive invite only for my knowledge but moderated | 17:44 |
| DawnFoster | lle2 - the TSG meeting is at 20:00 UTC on #meego-meeting anyone can attend | 17:44 |
| vilvo | thanks DawnFoster | 17:44 |
| lle2 | thanks! | 17:44 |
| DawnFoster | TSG meeting will be moderated, but we're taking questions on #meego-meeting-questions & I'll post as many as we can fit into the time. | 17:45 |
| timeless_mbp | DawnFoster: for the temporally challenged amongst us, can you give that in relative time? | 17:45 |
| vilvo | 22.00EET | 17:45 |
| lle2 | 4h15m from now | 17:45 |
| DawnFoster | details here: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting | 17:45 |
| timeless_mbp | lle2++ | 17:46 |
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| timeless_mbp | DawnFoster: the topic doesn't mention the other channel | 17:47 |
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| DawnFoster | timeless_mbp: thanks. We set up the separate channel for questions a little late and we're still getting organized. | 17:48 |
| timeless_mbp | nor does the wiki page | 17:48 |
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| DawnFoster | timeless_mbp: I just set up the new channel. I'll see if I can get it added to the right places | 17:50 |
| * timeless_mbp tries to decide if DawnFoster is precisely equivalent to qgil | 17:50 | |
| DawnFoster | timeless_mbp: probably quite a few differences :) | 17:51 |
| timeless_mbp | his title is "open source advocate" | 17:51 |
| timeless_mbp | which is about as helpful as my title at a previous company: "timeless developer" | 17:51 |
| * timeless_mbp had business cards too! | 17:52 | |
| DawnFoster | timeless_mbp: I knew someone at Intel who had "Tools Goddess" as her business card title | 17:52 |
| nidO | seems a useful title for him if he wants to slack, just stand outside nokia hq with a billboard saying "linux is good k" | 17:52 |
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| Myrtti | oo, my coffee is getting cold | 17:55 |
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| megabast | 00pq | 17:56 |
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| slaine | megabast: a little early yet | 18:01 |
| slaine | try again in 4 hours | 18:01 |
| megabast | slaine: lol slaine ^^ | 18:01 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah, you have time to get dinner or something | 18:02 |
| megabast | I will have to stay at work ^^ | 18:02 |
| timeless_mbp | have lunch then? | 18:03 |
| megabast | probably get a pizza hut next to work | 18:03 |
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| * timeless_mbp gets chicken soup (again) | 18:04 | |
| timeless_mbp | it's kinda boring having it every day for a week | 18:04 |
| slaine | timeless_mbp: stomach flu ? | 18:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | flu yes | 18:05 |
| slaine | ugh, get well soon | 18:05 |
| timeless_mbp | hopefully i'll be better tomorrow | 18:06 |
| timeless_mbp | because then i can fly to stockholm on friday | 18:06 |
| timeless_mbp | otherwise i'm in trouble for the next two weeks | 18:06 |
| timeless_mbp | because i told people i wouldn't be here and thus they won't have food for me | 18:06 |
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| user_ | otoivainen | 18:07 |
| timeless_mbp | btw, your irc nick field claims slaine_, not slaine ;-) | 18:07 |
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| slaine | timeless_mbp: really ? | 18:09 |
| timeless_mbp | http://meego.com/users/slaine | 18:09 |
| timeless_mbp | IRC Nick | 18:09 |
| timeless_mbp | slaine_ | 18:09 |
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| slaine | Ah, well spotted | 18:10 |
| slaine | thanks, changed now | 18:10 |
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| timeless_mbp | lest people complain that my irc nick is wrong, it isn't, my connection just dies periodically ;-) | 18:11 |
| slaine | :) | 18:11 |
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| timeless_mbp | hrm, my irc client is buggy. /whois victim isn't looking up victim on the current channel's server | 18:14 |
| timeless_mbp | (actually, in general that it does that helps me more often than it hurts me, but… it's still technically buggy) | 18:15 |
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| GAN900 | thiago, the Harmattan+ codename was picked by the community, fyi. :) | 18:28 |
| Myrtti | GAN900: I was actually looking for where it was decided | 18:31 |
| Myrtti | GAN900: url plz | 18:31 |
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| lcuk | GAN900, harmattan was community? i only ever saw the discussion on i | 18:36 |
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| timeless_mbp | so we can pick the community for picking something that can't be spelled properly by nokians? | 18:39 |
| timeless_mbp | (i think for fremantle we can blame someone internal for the same problem) | 18:39 |
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| burchr | timeless_mbp: you mean freemantle? | 18:40 |
| * burchr ducks and runs | 18:40 | |
| timeless_mbp | probably amongst others, yeah | 18:40 |
| burchr | gaaaah | 18:41 |
| burchr | why did HMRC chose today to go on strike | 18:41 |
| timeless_mbp | s/chose/choose/ | 18:41 |
| burchr | typo | 18:41 |
| burchr | typing one handed is hard | 18:41 |
| timeless_mbp | it's a typical mistake for nokian's | 18:41 |
| timeless_mbp | so it's an automatic correction for me | 18:41 |
| burchr | :) | 18:42 |
| * burchr hangs up | 18:42 | |
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| GAN900 | Myrtti, qgil's Jaiku as far as Ican recall. | 18:44 |
| GAN900 | timeless_mbp, Iverna? | 18:45 |
| timeless_mbp | sorry? | 18:45 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, you didn't mean harmattan, you meant harmattan.next | 18:45 |
| GAN900 | Yeah | 18:45 |
| GAN900 | N900 typing failure. | 18:46 |
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| * Jaffa boggles at the reply to his post on the "browser engine and other big architectural decisions" | 18:49 | |
| timeless_mbp | url? | 18:50 |
| timeless_mbp | "not important"? | 18:50 |
| timeless_mbp | :) | 18:50 |
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| Jaffa | timeless_mbp: Start here - http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-March/001081.html | 18:50 |
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| Myrtti | GAN900: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/52078129 ? | 18:51 |
| timeless_mbp | eww, a mailing list | 18:51 |
| timeless_mbp | that was your first mistake :) | 18:51 |
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| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: um | 18:51 |
| GAN900 | Myrtti, yeah, that'd be it. | 18:51 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm pretty sure i don't want to read that | 18:51 |
| Myrtti | I wouldn't count that as a decision made by the community... | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | we have perhaps two russian engineers total | 18:52 |
| Myrtti | but *shrug* | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | and our team owner actively sponsored a web kit port | 18:52 |
| Myrtti | what do I know... | 18:52 |
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| GAN900 | Myrtti, well, afaicr. ;) | 18:53 |
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| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: anyway, there's no way in hell i'm touching that or anything else on that list | 18:53 |
| GAN900 | Jaffa, LiMo?! | 18:54 |
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| timeless_mbp | his opinion is also contrary to the reviews by e.g. Engadget | 18:54 |
| javispedro | Inverna! | 18:55 |
| timeless_mbp | perhaps he hasn't purchased an n900 because he left nokia and stopped receiving free products? | 18:55 |
| javispedro | Iverna sounds like a girl name. | 18:55 |
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| timeless_mbp | javispedro: as w/ its predecessors, it's a wind | 18:55 |
| timeless_mbp | italian, which is probably why it sounds like a girl's name | 18:55 |
| javispedro | yeah yea, but that's INverna | 18:55 |
| timeless_mbp | oh oops | 18:56 |
| timeless_mbp | wait, is it Iverna or Inverna? | 18:56 |
| Myrtti | Ilmatar. | 18:56 |
| Myrtti | :-P | 18:56 |
| javispedro | it's "inverna" | 18:56 |
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| timeless_mbp | Myrtti: mentioned by you feb of last year... | 18:57 |
| * CosmoHill twitches | 18:57 | |
| Myrtti | timeless_mbp: wasn't my idea originally. | 18:57 |
| timeless_mbp | http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/52078129#comments | 18:57 |
| timeless_mbp | seems to be where you got it | 18:57 |
| Myrtti | I don't have that much creativity in me | 18:58 |
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| javispedro | http://es.pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Archivo:Inverna.png bah | 19:04 |
| javispedro | clearly, naming things is just hard. | 19:05 |
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| slaine | that poor dead horse | 19:34 |
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| auke | ino | 19:35 |
| auke | sad sad horse story | 19:35 |
| auke | I should have fudged the word "troll" in that e-mail somewhere :/ | 19:37 |
| slaine | lol | 19:37 |
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| auke | I mean, the browser discussion is actually interesting | 19:37 |
| slaine | yup | 19:37 |
| auke | and in comes this guy who takes half of an argument on the acid test | 19:38 |
| slaine | I guess we'll find out more later :) | 19:38 |
| auke | and BAM | 19:38 |
| auke | turns it into goatse | 19:38 |
| slaine | Ah no, you didn't have to go there auke | 19:38 |
| auke | lol | 19:38 |
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| slaine | that's one site you can never unsee | 19:38 |
| auke | yes, please don't go there, lol | 19:39 |
| slaine | I wonder does he have google ads on there yet | 19:39 |
| slaine | he'd probably make a fortune | 19:39 |
| auke | trust me, you don't <jedi hand movement> | 19:40 |
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| lcuk | i would like an email client app to convert long threads into haiku | 19:41 |
| auke | lcuk: ahaha | 19:42 |
| auke | lcuk: go play "haiku journey" | 19:42 |
| lcuk | no time to play! | 19:42 |
| lcuk | theres lots to be done. | 19:44 |
| lcuk | Busy IRC tonight! | 19:44 |
| auke | yah, meeting as well in a bit | 19:44 |
| slaine | better make sure I get back home in time for it | 19:44 |
| achipa | is the wiki using the same (openID) accounts as the rest of meego.com ? | 19:47 |
| achipa | trying to log in and it's not quite working out (as in I'm successfully logged in but still get a log in/register on wiki pages) | 19:48 |
| DawnFoster | achipa: the log in info is the same, but the wiki has been a little difficult lately, and sometimes I have to log into the wiki again. | 19:49 |
| DawnFoster | achipa: let me know if you aren't able to eventually get logged in. | 19:50 |
| achipa | I'm currently in the stage of having both "log in" and "log out" links :) | 19:50 |
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| arjan | achipa: purgatory | 19:51 |
| achipa | yeah. Though I *can* log out, but logging *in* gets me only, well... to a log in link :) | 19:52 |
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| DawnFoster | achipa: well, you obviously need to log in again (and again and again) if you still have the log in link? | 19:58 |
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| Jaffa | DawnFoster: But you can have a "Log In" link *and* a "Log Out" link (well, back ages ago) | 20:01 |
| DawnFoster | achipa: kidding aside, I am looking into your log in issue | 20:01 |
| DawnFoster | your account is new and it might take some time to sync, but I'm trying to confirm this. | 20:02 |
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| Cosmo[PB] | my router sucks more than your typical American cheerleader on prom night | 20:58 |
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| lcuk | Cosmo[PB], but your router will not effect teenage pregnancy statistics | 20:59 |
| ShadowJK | lcuk, if the router worked perhaps he'd be surfing the web instead of chasing girls | 21:00 |
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| lcuk | somehow also, i cannot see a tv show "save the router, save the world" | 21:02 |
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| th0br0 | good evening everyone. glad that i actually made it for tonight's meeting ;) | 21:41 |
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| CosmoHill | :) | 21:41 |
| X-Fade | Hehe :) | 21:41 |
| leinir | Oh yeah! Meeting thing :) | 21:41 |
| CosmoHill | 20 mins] | 21:41 |
| th0br0 | yep CosmoHill | 21:41 |
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| CosmoHill | 3rd meeting? | 21:42 |
| th0br0 | ? | 21:42 |
| X-Fade | The General always has access to the lastest hardware it seems. | 21:42 |
| th0br0 | Which General? | 21:42 |
| CosmoHill | this would be the 3rd meeting wouldn't ot? | 21:42 |
| X-Fade | Yes, although first of this kind. | 21:43 |
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| * CosmoHill stares at xkcd | 21:44 | |
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| CosmoHill | th0br0: shell we start populating the metting channel? | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | populating? | 21:47 |
| th0br0 | CosmoHill: huh? | 21:47 |
| thiago_home | 95 people over there | 21:47 |
| Stskeeps | that sounded a bit wrong in my ears | 21:47 |
| X-Fade | CosmoHill: just jump in ;) | 21:48 |
| CosmoHill | #meego-meeting right? | 21:48 |
| th0br0 | yep CosmoHill | 21:48 |
| CosmoHill | yay | 21:48 |
| CosmoHill | i know things :) | 21:48 |
| DawnFoster | remember that #meego-meeting is moderated, but you can post your questions to #meego-meeting-questions | 21:49 |
| CosmoHill | moderated? | 21:49 |
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| th0br0 | yep, DawnFoster. | 21:50 |
| DawnFoster | Please preface questions with QUESTIONS: | 21:50 |
| th0br0 | DawnFoster: oh, what is "AOB" for? | 21:50 |
| Myrtti | DawnFoster: will you be able to follow both or do you need help with relaying the questions from -meeting-questions to -meeting? *volunteers* | 21:50 |
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| DawnFoster | I'll be attempting to follow both to post questions into -meeting | 21:51 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps | 21:51 | |
| Myrtti | ok :-) atleast it probably won't be as hectic as the Ubuntu Classroom sessions :-) | 21:51 |
| DawnFoster | but I could use some help making sure that I don't miss questions and in making sure that I get them posted during the right agenda topic | 21:51 |
| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting -today- 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba in #meego-meeting, questions in #meego" | 21:51 | |
| lcuk | DawnFoster, i split my irc windows in half | 21:51 |
| DawnFoster | myrtti - we'll see :) | 21:52 |
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| Myrtti | DawnFoster: I wonder how easy it would be to use Lernid for these meetings | 21:52 |
| rsuplido | Stskeeps, questions are at: #meego-meeting-questions | 21:52 |
| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba in #meego-meeting, questions in #meego-meeting-questions" | 21:52 | |
| Stskeeps | rsuplido: yes, got cut off :) | 21:52 |
| th0br0 | might i just be informed as to what the "AOB" point on the agenda refers to? | 21:52 |
| DawnFoster | lcuk - thanks for the reminder :) *windows split* | 21:52 |
| Terje1 | any other business | 21:52 |
| lcuk | if you are using xchat, you may be able to right click on the channel name and select detach tab | 21:52 |
| DawnFoster | lcuk - I use adium & it's easy to split. | 21:53 |
| th0br0 | ok. DawnFoster, i'd like to take a couple of your minutes in AOB then; just so that you know already. | 21:53 |
| lcuk | DawnFoster, perfect :) | 21:53 |
| th0br0 | oh but i think i should rather tell that imadX ;) | 21:53 |
| DawnFoster | ok - i'm going to ignore this channel for a few min while I focus on the other 2 :) | 21:53 |
| th0br0 | or is DawnFoster == valterri halla? | 21:54 |
| th0br0 | s/valterri/valtteri/ | 21:54 |
| infobot | th0br0 meant: or is DawnFoster == valtteri halla? | 21:54 |
| Myrtti | th0br0: no, she isn't | 21:54 |
| th0br0 | ok. | 21:54 |
| thiago_home | Dawn = Dawn | 21:54 |
| th0br0 | and Foster = Foster ? | 21:54 |
| lle2 | incredibe | 21:54 |
| Myrtti | how surprising | 21:55 |
| DawnFoster | geez, I leave for 30 seconds and look what happens :) | 21:55 |
| Myrtti | you, sir, have won the internets | 21:55 |
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| * Myrtti needs to control her sarcasm | 21:55 | |
| CosmoHill | [19:55] * #meego-meeting :Cannot send to channel | 21:55 |
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| CosmoHill | I see what you mean | 21:56 |
| rsuplido | anyone has a link to the agenda? is it in the wiki? | 21:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Myrtti: where's the fun in that{ | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | moderated, questions in #meego-meeting-questions | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | -> CosmoHill | 21:56 |
| th0br0 | rsuplido: see #meego-meeting topic | 21:56 |
| DawnFoster | the wonders of moderation :) | 21:56 |
| CosmoHill | thanks I was looking for that channel | 21:56 |
| DawnFoster | Agenda is here: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting | 21:57 |
| rsuplido | thanks | 21:57 |
| alden | whats AOB? | 21:57 |
| th0br0 | any other business | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | DawnFoster: for #meego-meeting topic you can maybe add agenda at the tinyurl too, so people are aware | 21:57 |
| alden | ah | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | 'agenda at', i mean | 21:58 |
| * thiago_home reorders all three meego channels side-by-side | 21:58 | |
| th0br0 | ohai Stskeeps | 21:58 |
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| lcuk | thiago, :) | 21:58 |
| RST38h | not looking good in ircii | 21:58 |
| lcuk | we need qt irc ;) with bouncy layouts :p | 21:58 |
| ImadSousou | thiago -- yeah I know nice idea... good thing my screen is big enough | 21:58 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: quassel | 21:58 |
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| lcuk | no need to swear | 21:59 |
| Myrtti | DawnFoster: aw, u r no fun :-P | 22:00 |
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| CosmoHill | what are the rules on swearing btw? | 22:00 |
| lle2 | you planning to? | 22:01 |
| arjan | CosmoHill: $5 to charity on each swear word | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | no | 22:01 |
| javispedro | you really need rules on swearing? :P | 22:01 |
| colonelqubit | lol | 22:01 |
| thiago_home | CosmoHill: it's moderated, no one will see you swearing :-) | 22:01 |
| th0br0 | javispedro: it only increases the fun. | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | i meant in here | 22:01 |
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| thiago_home | ah | 22:01 |
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| lle2 | this is internet, it's meant to be nasty | 22:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill: avoid it, but it's not a bannable offense. ;) | 22:01 |
| CosmoHill | :) | 22:02 |
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| Stskeeps | for the people coming in late, http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.log.txt is always latest log | 22:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill: think of this as a professional environment. | 22:02 |
| * GeneralAntilles has forgotten how to type qwerty | 22:02 | |
| CosmoHill | dvorak? | 22:02 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Of course, and we should ban for offending vegetarians, rastafarians, and iphone users! | 22:02 |
| arjan | GA: too many qwertz kezboarding ? | 22:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 22:02 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: you got that bot hosted on some dedi box right now? | 22:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | arjan: Dvorak. | 22:02 |
| thiago_home | do we need Imad and Valtteri to introduce themselves? | 22:02 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: huh? ban for offending iphone users? | 22:02 |
| CosmoHill | GeneralAntilles: how does that compare? | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: it lives on my nokia 770 in a dusty closet | 22:02 |
| th0br0 | we should ban iphone users, yes... | 22:02 |
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| lcuk | will people with long nicknames please shorten them \@ they screw up my formatting when ive got small windows | 22:02 |
| lle2 | how are they going to present powerpoint slides... | 22:02 |
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| th0br0 | Stskeeps: haha :P if you want me to run it for you, i can do that. | 22:03 |
| javispedro | lcuk: GAN's nick is sacred! | 22:03 |
| Texrat | hey hey! | 22:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill: I like it a lot more. | 22:03 |
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| CosmoHill | is the keyboard qwerty with a dvorak map? | 22:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill: and, somehow, I managed to train myself so I can type whatever's on the keyboard in front of my. | 22:03 |
| mmeeks | DawnFoster: all other commentary / back-channel discussions in #meego ? - so #meego-meeting is effectively read-only for ~all but Imad, Valteri etc. ? | 22:03 |
| dneary | Hi all | 22:03 |
| dneary | hi mmeeks | 22:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | I move the keycaps around | 22:03 |
| Texrat | hey dneary | 22:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I can only type what's on the caps. | 22:04 |
| mmeeks | 'evening Dave :-) | 22:04 |
| th0br0 | mmeeks: #meego-meeting-questions | 22:04 |
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| DawnFoster | mmeeks: at least for this first one, we're doing moderated. | 22:04 |
| thiago_home | mmeeks: this is the parallel meeting channel apparently :-) | 22:04 |
| lcuk | Texrat, shhh questions only ;) | 22:04 |
| DawnFoster | questions should be posted to #meego-meeting-questions | 22:04 |
| dneary | mmeeks, That's the general idea... you ask questions here, and DawnFoster and Quim Gil moderate the discussion, choose questions to ask in #meego-meeting | 22:04 |
| lle2 | questions in #meego-meeting-questions, not here | 22:04 |
| Myrtti | dneary: not here, in #meego-meeting-questions | 22:04 |
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| dneary | Myrtti, Just saw that :) | 22:05 |
| Texrat | right lle2 | 22:05 |
| th0br0 | DawnFoster: i think doing it moderated is the best choice actually as the number of ... possible interested ppl is far too big. | 22:05 |
| dneary | I'm a head-down typer | 22:05 |
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| mmeeks | thiago: nice ! the fun channel :-) | 22:05 |
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| * Stskeeps serves popcorn | 22:05 | |
| dneary | th0br0, I agree. | 22:05 |
| mmeeks | dneary: ah - but I'm asking questions in #meego-meeting-questions ;-) | 22:05 |
| Texrat | hi Myrtti! hope you're doing well... still around San Francisco? | 22:05 |
| javispedro | aw, c'mon, someone ask if meego uses .deb or .rpm | 22:05 |
| Myrtti | Texrat: until 15th May | 22:05 |
| * arjan poors a gallon of pig waste over javispedro | 22:05 | |
| dneary | mmeeks, The idea's copied from the Ubuntu Education Week sessions | 22:05 |
| lvader | lol | 22:05 |
| CosmoHill | javispedro: and that someone will wake up in the back of a van | 22:06 |
| dneary | javispedro, We all know that don't we? | 22:06 |
| lle2 | this may be fun, but I really don't see how this is actually working at all | 22:06 |
| * mmeeks needs to persuade xchat to put 3x channels side by side I guess. | 22:06 | |
| th0br0 | cheers, Stskeeps | 22:06 |
| * auke sprinkles javispedro with some rpm flakes | 22:06 | |
| CosmoHill | people need to start talking in the meeting | 22:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | s/meeting/announcements from on high/ | 22:06 |
| javispedro | we could vote on the questions priority... if there questions. | 22:06 |
| auke | mmeeks: pidgin isn't much better unfortunately | 22:07 |
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| RST38h | Yea, that does not seem to be a real meeting, in the previous sense of this word... | 22:07 |
| Myrtti | oof | 22:07 |
| RST38h | More like moderated questions and answers session | 22:07 |
| Texrat | following 3 channels at work will get me fired or brain fried | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | well, it -is- the TSG meeting | 22:07 |
| mmeeks | auke: heh :-) good to see you here ... | 22:07 |
| dneary | RST38h, It's a meeting in the sense "political meeting" | 22:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | MeeGo-on-N900 7 minutes in | 22:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think that's a new world record. | 22:08 |
| auke | mmeeks: I lurk here most of the time... feel free to ping me when you want to moan about uxlaunch etc ;) | 22:08 |
| dneary | RST38h, A large number of people wishing to make themselves known to a small number of people | 22:08 |
| Texrat | lol GeneralAntilles | 22:08 |
| RST38h | dneary: Do we get to lynch someone at the end then? =) | 22:08 |
| *** anotnac has joined #meego | 22:08 | |
| dneary | RST38h, There's really no other way that this could work | 22:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat: for slowness, not for speed, that is. ;) | 22:08 |
| mmeeks | auke: fair enough - I havn't got there yet :-) did you merge my last patches ? :-) | 22:08 |
| Texrat | understood | 22:08 |
| * javispedro is happy to see questions flowing in | 22:09 | |
| *** ImadSousou has quit IRC | 22:09 | |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h: clearly the meeting has already taken place. ;) | 22:09 |
| * mmeeks wonders where Imad went. | 22:09 | |
| thiago_home | oops, we lost Imad | 22:09 |
| * thiago_home guesses intern tripped at the power cable | 22:09 | |
| mmeeks | arjan: did I offend him ? ;-) | 22:09 |
| * mmeeks flees etc. | 22:09 | |
| Texrat | poor IMad | 22:10 |
| *** arjan has quit IRC | 22:10 | |
| mmeeks | thiago: this gives me the perfect time to test that QDBus interesting thing, | 22:10 |
| auke | mmeeks: now you did it! | 22:10 |
| mmeeks | auke: woah; apparently. | 22:11 |
| mmeeks | anaZ: has Portland been hit by a giant lizard or something ? | 22:11 |
| *** ImadX has joined #meego | 22:11 | |
| *** arjan has joined #meego | 22:11 | |
| lle2 | this is an f*ing joke, tbh | 22:11 |
| *** hcarrega_ has joined #meego | 22:11 | |
| GeneralAntilles | i.e., "Marketing Makes an Architecture Diagram" | 22:11 |
| *** hcarrega_ has quit IRC | 22:11 | |
| CosmoHill | is it just me or is the meeting not going as smoothly as the first | 22:11 |
| Texrat | we're gonna need a few of these to get it right | 22:11 |
| auke | I think they're both on a different proxy than I am | 22:11 |
| Stskeeps | lle2: in terms of? | 22:11 |
| auke | I'm in the same office, heh | 22:12 |
| arjan | our (Intel) IT firewall just barfed | 22:12 |
| anaZ | mmeeks: no idea, thankfully I am not in portland | 22:12 |
| * Myrtti goes to get popcorn | 22:12 | |
| Texrat | if it gets too boring we can start a Nokia-Intel flame war | 22:12 |
| RST38h | You cannot, it is moderated | 22:12 |
| javispedro | why so much popcorn? nobody asked about .deb yet! (and my clock is ticking, much like GANs) | 22:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | ARM-Intel, surely. | 22:12 |
| *** ImadSousou has joined #meego | 22:13 | |
| mmeeks | GeneralAntilles: ARM-Legge ? | 22:13 |
| Texrat | for instance, I <3 AMD : p | 22:13 |
| th0br0 | javispedro: screw .deb | 22:13 |
| RST38h | Ok, not much interesting action is gonna happen there, going to sleep instead. | 22:13 |
| javispedro | th0br0: I know I know. | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: minutes will be available afterwards | 22:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h: later. | 22:13 |
| th0br0 | good night, RST38h | 22:13 |
| lle2 | Stskeeps: this CANNOT be the way to organize multi-million dollar investments. | 22:13 |
| mmeeks | RST38h: for 38 hours ? | 22:13 |
| rsuplido | i think a call-in meeting would be better next time. ;) | 22:13 |
| *** sar3th is now known as sar3th|away | 22:13 | |
| rsalveti | yeah, will be easier to discuss at the ml later :-) | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | lle2: i think it's exactly the way to do it | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:14 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Exactly. Plus, if some corpse spills a bunch of beans, they will be at tmo by tomorrow morning =) | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | lle2: if we had a open meeting we'd all end up picking up welfare | 22:14 |
| thiago_home | yeah, call in + Microsoft Live Meeting | 22:14 |
| thiago_home | :-P | 22:14 |
| RST38h | mmeeks: I wish | 22:14 |
| RST38h | FRUCT conference is tomorrow at 9:30 | 22:14 |
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| Texrat | lol lle2 | 22:14 |
| *** hcarrega has quit IRC | 22:14 | |
| Stskeeps | lle2: at least this isn't a teleconference | 22:14 |
| Myrtti | public service announcment: ice is slippery | 22:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, the wonderful world of confusing-as-hell MeeGo definitions. | 22:15 |
| javispedro | but what you'd expect from this meeting? | 22:15 |
| dneary | Myrtti, Ah, but *why* is ice slippery? | 22:15 |
| *** flukebox has quit IRC | 22:15 | |
| * Texrat thanks Myrtti profusely | 22:16 | |
| thiago_home | have people seen Galaxy Quest? Remember Sigourney Weaver's character? The one who relayed commands to the computer? | 22:16 |
| Myrtti | dneary: I have no idea, all I know is that my back hurts now even more than before I tried to stand on an ice cube | 22:16 |
| thiago_home | isn't that what qgil is doing? :-) | 22:16 |
| * Texrat thumps dneary tho | 22:16 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody photoshop qgil into a Galaxy Quest shot. | 22:16 |
| javispedro | thiago: yes, that gives a bad impression | 22:16 |
| Texrat | lol... Quim's patience is already gone | 22:17 |
| thiago_home | CosmoHill: I think your question is answered by "you can install anything you want. It's linux" | 22:17 |
| dneary | Texrat, Huh? | 22:17 |
| Texrat | qft | 22:17 |
| CosmoHill | sounds like LFS | 22:17 |
| Texrat | 2dneary sorry, reflex | 22:17 |
| X-Fade | I feel this meeting is too early ;) All details are to be released asap. | 22:17 |
| arjan | hjsm: there is no prorprietary kernel graphics driver in moblin | 22:17 |
| thiago_home | it's a standard Linux desktop on an embedded system. Want to install some 3rd-party apps? Go ahead. | 22:18 |
| Myrtti | more popcorn is needed. Corn husks help with digestive problems. | 22:18 |
| leinir | thiago_home: absolutely :) Also, brilliantly done bit of movie there :) | 22:18 |
| *** lainwir3d has joined #meego | 22:18 | |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade: they should probably have pushed some of this to the mailing lists. . . | 22:18 |
| javispedro | Unfortunately at this point and I don't know if the questions are asked are the kind of questions "the gods from above" expected to get asked or not. | 22:18 |
| arjan | hjsm: I thik you're a bit misinformed if you think there ever were binary kernel drivers in or for moblin | 22:18 |
| thiago_home | leinir: "Never give up. Never surrender." | 22:18 |
| arjan | including graphics | 22:18 |
| dneary | Myrtti, Look for Richard Feynmann magnetism on youtube | 22:18 |
| lle2 | the meeting progresses like a rabid snail | 22:18 |
| rsalveti | the closed stuff will depend basically on how the vendor wants to put and use meeg | 22:19 |
| Stskeeps | lle2, it's only 16 min in, you have little patience | 22:19 |
| leinir | thiago_home: *giggles* So brilliant :) | 22:19 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I feel that the next meeting will be a lot better as then more details are known. | 22:19 |
| rsalveti | I still believe that the devices are going to deliver a *lot* of closed components | 22:19 |
| Texrat | me sleeps until community stuff comes up | 22:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade: or worse, depending on the details. *eg* | 22:19 |
| Texrat | qft | 22:19 |
| *** stormer has joined #meego | 22:19 | |
| dneary | thiago_home, A bit more nuanced than that... I wanted to know if all MeeGo users will be equal citizens, or whether there would be restrictions on redistrributing because of binary components in the core distro | 22:19 |
| colonelqubit | "Well, exceptions would be for things like including Adobe Flash" -- wait, are they saying they'd put Flash in the "open source" stack? It's not like you have to have Flash to make phone calls or charge your battery... | 22:20 |
| Myrtti | Richard Feynman ♥ | 22:20 |
| rsalveti | :-) | 22:20 |
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| GeneralAntilles | dneary: well, presumably vendors will have their own crap. | 22:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: which means not equal, I guess. | 22:20 |
| thiago_home | dneary: that's not what I was answering... | 22:20 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles, That's my point with the follow-up | 22:20 |
| lle2 | Stskeeps: I don't have any patience, I want a genuine meeting, not this kind of slow motion train wrecking | 22:20 |
| dneary | thiago_home, You were answering the slippery ice question? | 22:20 |
| Texrat | lle2 I guarantee Quim and Dawn don't see it as slow ;) | 22:21 |
| thiago_home | uh oh... code out next week. April 1st? | 22:21 |
| thiago_home | dneary: no, the "can I get more stuff on MeeGo" question by CosmoHill | 22:21 |
| javispedro | good question, X-Fade, conny | 22:21 |
| dneary | March 31st! My birthday! | 22:21 |
| dneary | And MeeGo's too | 22:21 |
| CosmoHill | dneary: oo | 22:21 |
| CosmoHill | 30th is mine :) | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | damn, I was hoping for this Friday | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | my birthday | 22:22 |
| colonelqubit | thiago_home: I just want to see an announcement on April 1 that Meego is now going to move to MS-Windows instead | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | and Leonard Nimoy's | 22:22 |
| dneary | thiago_home, Ah, sorry | 22:22 |
| CosmoHill | thiago_home: if you answered my question I missed it | 22:22 |
| thiago_home | colonelqubit: we'll announce that the entire API is VisualBasic for Applications | 22:22 |
| Stskeeps | man, i get stressed just looking at the questions channel | 22:22 |
| Texrat | lol | 22:22 |
| dneary | thiago_home, you should have been born 5 days later ;) | 22:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: too bad for you. :P | 22:22 |
| *** dpino has quit IRC | 22:22 | |
| arjan | and that you need edlin to code, we're ditching vi too | 22:22 |
| Jaffa | How do we ask a question? | 22:23 |
| conny | so it looks like the "Netbook UX" will be plain Qt, right? | 22:23 |
| Jaffa | i.e. valhalla: are you using your MeeGo-running N900 as a phone? | 22:23 |
| Texrat | lol-- I forgot about edlin | 22:23 |
| arjan | conny: don't think so | 22:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: #meego-meeting-questions | 22:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: QUESTION: | 22:23 |
| * timeless_mbp chuckles | 22:23 | |
| arjan | conny: all apps will be. the actual window manager.. unlikely | 22:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps: no kidding. | 22:23 |
| conny | arjan: thanks | 22:23 |
| Texrat | Dawn will be bald by time this is over | 22:23 |
| lle2 | I would have never expected to experience this when I joined Nokia in '97 :( | 22:23 |
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| javispedro | Stskeeps: stressed -- normal. constantly facepalming until your hand hurts -- get worried. | 22:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: my guess is "no". ;) | 22:24 |
| mmeeks | thiago_home: interestingly, I couldn't reproduce http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7475 with the test case there; always gives me 'false' 'false' | 22:24 |
| * mmeeks should perhaps try with a service he might have running of course | 22:24 | |
| thiago_home | who needs edlin when we have ed? | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | man, you guys have high expectations.. | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:24 |
| lbt | dammit ... late | 22:24 |
| thiago_home | mmeeks: yes, that usually gets some "true" :-) | 22:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt: you've missed, well, nothing. ;) | 22:24 |
| lbt | log? | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.log.txt | 22:24 |
| lbt | ta | 22:25 |
| * lbt working on OBS ... heh | 22:25 | |
| timeless_mbp | lbt: so far people are slowing things down by asking silly questions :) | 22:25 |
| *** mrshaver has quit IRC | 22:25 | |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. i was pondering to hack some and read the minutes afterwards | 22:25 |
| *** javispedro has quit IRC | 22:25 | |
| Texrat | there are professional meeting tools for this-- I think MeeGo.com needs to invest in one | 22:25 |
| * Jaffa was visiting brother who underwent surgery yesterday ;-) | 22:25 | |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: somehow I expect that comes down to vendor-MeeGo vs MeeGo-MeeGo. . . . :\ | 22:25 |
| lbt | Jaffa: he OK ? | 22:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | ^ | 22:25 |
| auke | Texrat: send an e-mail suggesting tools to qgil, dawn foster | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | Texrat: i'd rather they invest in spellcheckers | 22:26 |
| Texrat | trust me, auke, I will ;) | 22:26 |
| dneary | #meego-meeting-questions is getting a bit chatty now | 22:26 |
| * mmeeks now gets only 'true's for something that exists: odd. | 22:26 | |
| *** javispedro has joined #meego | 22:26 | |
| * CosmoHill is unable to keep up with the chat and explodes | 22:26 | |
| auke | Texrat: cool, thanks :) | 22:26 |
| Jaffa | lbt: yeah; bad broken arm playing rugby on Saturday; so he's home now and been signed off work for 6 weeks :-/ | 22:26 |
| Texrat | lol @timeless_mbp | 22:26 |
| colonelqubit | re: signed/non-signed kernels, unless you added in a license like GPLv3, what hope would people have of preventing vendors from tivoizing their hardware? | 22:26 |
| lle2 | I've seen meetings take place on IRC, they were not like this | 22:27 |
| thiago_home | colonelqubit: Linus is quite clear that he doesn't mind the tivoisation | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | people should treat these meetings like the start of a relationship.. let your crazy tendancies show only in small bits at first | 22:27 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:27 |
| Texrat | oops @STskeeps, too late! | 22:27 |
| thiago_home | this is also a weird meeting because there are only two "participants". It's more like a Q&A sessions... | 22:27 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Indeed; but it was also pitched - as thiago_home says - almost as a Q&A | 22:28 |
| Texrat | no way this could work as a "real" meeting on IRC tho | 22:28 |
| colonelqubit | thiago_home: Oh, I know Linus's position. I'm just responding to questions in #meego-meeting-questions such as the one by DocScrutinizer | 22:28 |
| * Jaffa 'd like to see them having a discussion between the TSG and representatives of the working groups on their busines | 22:28 | |
| lcuk | thiago, but its interesting in watching the swearm of related questions coming in as points are made | 22:28 |
| thiago_home | colonelqubit: the bootloader one? | 22:28 |
| lcuk | very telling of the community stance | 22:28 |
| alden | what does he mean by 'uniform' meego? | 22:28 |
| lcuk | glad its open :) | 22:28 |
| colonelqubit | thiago_home: yes | 22:28 |
| thiago_home | there are more questions than they can answer... | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: it'll probably evolve into that when there's a structure | 22:29 |
| lle2 | I actually have very real expectations of getting shit answered / agreed upon. This isn't working. | 22:29 |
| Stskeeps | lle2, man, you're negative :P | 22:29 |
| lle2 | ;p | 22:29 |
| Texrat | well, he has a point re signal-to-noise, even in the meeting | 22:29 |
| *** rokabout has joined #meego | 22:29 | |
| colonelqubit | thiago_home: hey, DocScrutinizer's question made the cut! I'm all ears, now! | 22:29 |
| Texrat | filtering doesn't stop the bot! | 22:29 |
| *** murrayc_ has joined #meego | 22:30 | |
| Jaffa | Indeed, the moderation and logging is making it harder | 22:30 |
| *** kristof78 has quit IRC | 22:30 | |
| lle2 | I'm supposed to be working on MeeGo, this isn't a joke for me. Or it shouldn't be. | 22:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: that discussion seems to be taking place behind closed doors. . . . | 22:30 |
| th0br0 | colonelqubit: duh, it was one of tonight's most IMPORTANT questions... now it's getting undo'ed | 22:30 |
| cibyr | but we've talked about architecture already... can't be anything more worth saying... | 22:30 |
| Stskeeps | lle2: on the other hand, you'd be surprised how much is decided over coffee | 22:30 |
| colonelqubit | th0br0: no, I think he was just removing some other commentary (at least I hope so) | 22:30 |
| th0br0 | no he undid the #info regarding your question methinks | 22:31 |
| thiago_home | but the question was answered | 22:31 |
| Jaffa | He did. | 22:31 |
| thiago_home | bootloader is HW vendor's business | 22:31 |
| Texrat | I realize lle2 may disagree, but IMO the meeting itself should be proceeding more slowly as questions/answers are digested | 22:31 |
| lle2 | Stskeeps: deciding over coffee is like a structured approach when comparing to this | 22:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | In summary, say hello to signed kernels. | 22:32 |
| Texrat | ^ | 22:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | MeeGo doesn't actually care about pushing an open agenda to the market. | 22:32 |
| colonelqubit | Given the quantity of questions and pace, I largely agree with Texrat. I mean, an in-person meeting couldn't go this quickly | 22:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | er, signed kernels that can't be replaced. | 22:32 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: MeeGo doesn't care about FORCING companies to be open | 22:32 |
| thiago_home | MeeGo is open | 22:32 |
| alden | wohoo | 22:32 |
| alden | clutter lives | 22:32 |
| th0br0 | GeneralAntilles: that was kinda to be expected i think... too bad though...MEEGO COULD HAVE MADE A GOD-DAMN DIFFERENCE! ;) | 22:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: no it's not, not if companies are shipping versions of MeeGo that aren't open. | 22:32 |
| thiago_home | if people take the open stuff and make closed/tivoed stuff, it's their trouble | 22:32 |
| leinir | alden: Of course it does! It's just on life support :) | 22:33 |
| dneary | Jaffa, when you say "moderation is making it harder", what's "it"N | 22:33 |
| colonelqubit | MeeGo has carrots. We will give them to people if they open their stuff up. | 22:33 |
| cibyr | thiago_home: just like anrdoid then :( | 22:33 |
| lcuk | if people want closed source qt stuff tho - its by purchasing a license right? | 22:33 |
| Texrat | I hope the TSG will be receptive to feedback on this format | 22:33 |
| dneary | Jaffa, I think I missed a bit earlier | 22:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: it's your trouble, too, if they use your brand to do it. | 22:33 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: Qt is LGPL | 22:33 |
| arjan | lcuk: qt is lgpl... right | 22:33 |
| Jaffa | dneary: Following #meego-meeting. | 22:33 |
| dneary | Texrat, I would be interested in seeing whether the TSG could grow to include non-affiliated members | 22:33 |
| Jaffa | dneary: My eyes get lost flicking back to it as the same text shows up about 3 or 4 times ;-) | 22:33 |
| *** lle2 has left #meego | 22:33 | |
| lcuk | yes of course, but i thought i still had distribution problems to getting the libraries to end users | 22:33 |
| colonelqubit | Qt is LGPL...because Nokia made the license more permissive. Same with the new Python QT bindings. | 22:33 |
| thiago_home | called PySide | 22:34 |
| lcuk | ie i cant include them in my package | 22:34 |
| Texrat | dneary you and I both! I am waiting for that opening | 22:34 |
| Texrat | I want to know about council, staffing, etc | 22:34 |
| dneary | Anyone know how to open a channel in a different window in xchat-gnome? | 22:34 |
| colonelqubit | They're carving out a space for proprietary development on this kind of platform. It's.... one way of doing things. | 22:34 |
| * Texrat prepares resume :D | 22:34 | |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: doubt it. | 22:34 |
| thiago_home | trumee: I think I can partly answer your question about Mobility: there aren't many backends yet | 22:34 |
| lcuk | dneary, on the channel tab list, i select "detact tab" in windows version tho | 22:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: easy, don't use xchat-gnome. It sucks. :P | 22:34 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles, You don't think there are any xchat-gnome experts about, or you don't think it's possible? | 22:35 |
| thiago_home | some things will not work without the Maemo 6 components | 22:35 |
| *** zalan has quit IRC | 22:35 | |
| Jaffa | Oooh, actually interaction rather than just Q&A. | 22:35 |
| dneary | (re: "doubt it") | 22:35 |
| dneary | lcuk, No channels tabs here | 22:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: non-affiliated in TSG | 22:35 |
| lcuk | how do you change channels? | 22:35 |
| *** jpal has quit IRC | 22:35 | |
| thiago_home | Alt+Left, Alt+Right | 22:36 |
| *** stormer has quit IRC | 22:36 | |
| Texrat | ah... maybe here we go... | 22:37 |
| gcobb | Texrat: this is your opening! | 22:37 |
| * thiago_home thinks a Q&A session would be best served by collecting the questions, sending them to Valtteri & Imad (and minions) and then getting the answers published | 22:37 | |
| VDVsx | dneary, right click and then "detach" | 22:37 |
| CosmoHill | who are valtteri and imad? | 22:37 |
| colonelqubit | thiago_home: but where would the chaos^H^H^H^H fun be in that? | 22:37 |
| Stskeeps | CosmoHill: the two dictators of meego | 22:37 |
| Texrat | in! | 22:37 |
| cibyr | What does "Release program setup" mean and how is that different from "release plan"? | 22:37 |
| arjan | CosmoHill: imad is the top manager of the intel linux team; valteri is more or less his nokia equivalent | 22:37 |
| lbt | cibyr: no idea... ? | 22:38 |
| CosmoHill | cool | 22:38 |
| dneary | VDVsx, You're using either XChat or XChat win32 | 22:38 |
| lbt | ah, release roles | 22:38 |
| arjan | cibyr: this is more roles/etc not schedles | 22:38 |
| dneary | cibyr, Glad I'm not the only one confused by that | 22:38 |
| VDVsx | dneary, xchat under gnome | 22:38 |
| lbt | and maybe process | 22:38 |
| cibyr | ah, thanks | 22:38 |
| VDVsx | dneary, 2.8.6 | 22:38 |
| *** murrayc_ has quit IRC | 22:38 | |
| dneary | VDVsx, xchat2-gnome is a bit different | 22:38 |
| dneary | No detach | 22:38 |
| VDVsx | ah | 22:38 |
| *** sjgadsby has quit IRC | 22:39 | |
| gcobb | VDVsx: KSirc does detach (I am using it now) | 22:39 |
| timeless_mbp | Texrat: what's a Betbook? | 22:39 |
| Texrat | timeless_mbp, is that not a ledger for gamblers? :D | 22:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary: use real XChat. ;) | 22:40 |
| VDVsx | gcobb, my old xchat does too, but dneary new one does not it seems :) | 22:40 |
| leinir | timeless_mbp: It's sort of like a netbook, but with a one-off error on a qwerty keyboard? ;) | 22:40 |
| timeless_mbp | leinir: i like Texrat's odds better | 22:40 |
| leinir | *giggles* :) | 22:40 |
| * GeneralAntilles notes the community working group is headed exclusively by employees at the moment. ;) | 22:41 | |
| *** hcarrega has joined #meego | 22:41 | |
| timeless_mbp | very communal :) | 22:41 |
| Texrat | there ya go dneary | 22:41 |
| * Texrat notes that GeneralAntilles is discouraging me | 22:42 | |
| tekojo | GeneralAntilles have to start somewhere | 22:42 |
| Texrat | hey Tero buddy! | 22:42 |
| leinir | GeneralAntilles: Well... those employees were hired from the community... ;) | 22:42 |
| Texrat | enjoy your run? | 22:42 |
| leinir | chicken/egg... ;) | 22:42 |
| Texrat | snake/tail | 22:43 |
| Texrat | horse/cart | 22:43 |
| tekojo | Texrat I think we are bootstrapping | 22:43 |
| dneary | Texrat, Undone! Foiled again | 22:43 |
| * javispedro notes that he had joined maemo-community instead of meego- .... duh! | 22:43 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat: I'm good at that. ;) | 22:43 |
| Texrat | damn the luck dneary | 22:43 |
| timeless_mbp | so, the problem is that the questions are good. but they're mostly misdirected :) | 22:44 |
| Texrat | tekojo I'd rather be boot than strap | 22:44 |
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| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp: I guess working in a vacuum occupied mostly by PR-based information and FUD can do that. ;) | 22:44 |
| * timeless_mbp wishes that imad would spell 'structure' right at least once | 22:44 | |
| timeless_mbp | DawnFoster: thanks. | 22:45 |
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| * rmt had his first production outage today.. sorry ovi maps users. :-P | 22:47 | |
| timeless_mbp | rmt: please explain? | 22:48 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: could it be that you're a spelling natzee? | 22:48 |
| cibyr | ovi maps users? what users? | 22:48 |
| timeless_mbp | th0br0: could it be that getting things wrong is unprofessional? | 22:48 |
| th0br0 | true, too. | 22:48 |
| timeless_mbp | and oftentimes confusing | 22:48 |
| timeless_mbp | at least a couple of the errors this evening have caused me to pick totally incorrect parsing paths | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | the meeting isn't in a hurry, there's no reason to be sloppy | 22:49 |
| dneary | Stskeeps, I'm interested more in knowing where authority for things like working groups and maintainers will come from, and whether we can influence that | 22:49 |
| lbt | timeless_mbp: god help you if you ever get grandchildren texting you... | 22:49 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: it's running late though, especially for the nokia guys | 22:49 |
| dneary | Make it bottom-up rather than top-down if we can | 22:49 |
| Texrat | sorry for being away, I had to actually work | 22:49 |
| Texrat | :D | 22:49 |
| rmt | A short maps.ovi.com outage today. | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | lbt: i'm hoping texting won't last that long :) | 22:49 |
| dneary | (rather than ask pthe project to draw a flowchart, propose a flowchart | 22:49 |
| th0br0 | lbt: are you going to present us in the AOB part or should I do that? | 22:50 |
| timeless_mbp | rmt: you actually maintain some portion of maps.ovi? | 22:50 |
| rmt | Call me Mr Ops. | 22:50 |
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| colonelqubit | Mr. Oops? | 22:50 |
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| rmt | colonelqubit, Today, yes. :) | 22:50 |
| timeless_mbp | see, spelling is important :) | 22:50 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt: I can only imagine timeless_mbp will eat them. ;) | 22:50 |
| Texrat | ooo @Stskeeps, great question! org chart ftw | 22:51 |
| alden | how long is this meeting? | 22:51 |
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| arjan | 1 hour ? | 22:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Probably 2 | 22:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Or, god forbid, "until it's finished". ;) | 22:51 |
| Texrat | lol dneary | 22:52 |
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| Termana_n810 | Is the meeting completely finished? Was it logged/was anything interesting? :P | 22:52 |
| dneary | Texrat, For which funny thing I did are you laughing? | 22:53 |
| Jaffa | Termana_n810: Finished? It's barely started. | 22:53 |
| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: Yep, all done. Nothing to see here | 22:53 |
| dneary | Termana_n810, See #meego-meeting and #meego-meeting-qiestions | 22:53 |
| timeless_mbp | you're supposed to watch a movie during meetings | 22:53 |
| dneary | Sorruy - #meego-meeting-questions | 22:53 |
| timeless_mbp | hasn't anyone ever taught you proper meeting handling behavior? | 22:53 |
| colonelqubit | timeless_mbp: I _knew_ I was doing something wrong | 22:53 |
| X-Fade | QUESTION: How can people have merits in a new project? :) | 22:53 |
| * timeless_mbp is also reviewing a technical specification concurrently (while heckling!) | 22:53 | |
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| lcuk | observation: Next meeting, review the standard log and produce meetbot stuff in post processing, its distracting to the flow | 22:54 |
| thiago_home | X-Fade: wrong channel | 22:54 |
| rsalveti | Termana_n810: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.log.txt no much interesting things yet | 22:54 |
| javispedro | lcuk++ | 22:54 |
| X-Fade | thiago_home: no. | 22:54 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: i hope that was intentional | 22:54 |
| javispedro | or even better | 22:54 |
| colonelqubit | X-Fade: I bet we all know how to get DE-merits in a new project... | 22:54 |
| thiago_home | ok... | 22:54 |
| Texrat | dneary, the stskeeps eek | 22:54 |
| javispedro | have private channel where the gods organize themselves | 22:54 |
| th0br0 | lcuk: i don't know whether you can do that with meetbot | 22:54 |
| lcuk | thanks for my question tho :D | 22:54 |
| th0br0 | but yeah, i agree with you :) | 22:54 |
| dneary | Texrat, Ah, yes. Classic :) | 22:54 |
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| lcuk | we can use something else! | 22:54 |
| lcuk | maemo meetings coped without noisey repeats | 22:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade: easy, they work for Nokia or Intel. :) | 22:55 |
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| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Well that is one of the problems I see. | 22:55 |
| X-Fade | How can we make sure that interested parties don't run into a wall. | 22:55 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles, Now Now, give peace a chance | 22:56 |
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| colonelqubit | . o (... like... an actual wall? ...) | 22:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade: until there's actually something to contribute to, I don't think we can. | 22:56 |
| lcuk | th0br0, if the transcoding and copy pasting were going on in a different chan it can still be realtime transcription without interupting flow | 22:56 |
| lcuk | still using meetbot | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | X-Fade: ++ | 22:56 |
| th0br0 | mh ok | 22:56 |
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| CosmoHill | i like the way they introduce each other, it's kinda cute | 22:57 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I'm not worried about ourselves. But as new players in the market are interested, we need to make sure that not all positions are 'taken' and there is no way to get in. | 22:57 |
| Termana_n810 | CosmoHill, Lol | 22:58 |
| Texrat | ha lcuk- after you got onto ME in question channel :p | 22:58 |
| lcuk | lol CosmoHill it feels like im watching memento | 22:58 |
| thiago_home | nice touch that they introduce each other :-) | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: seems like /msg meetbot vs /msg #meego-meeting | 22:58 |
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| VDVsx | X-Fade, indeed, open the TSG to other "brands" | 22:58 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, yeah i tihnk | 22:59 |
| lcuk | Texrat, :D i was reacting | 22:59 |
| lcuk | i finally know who they are! | 22:59 |
| X-Fade | "Welcome working group" :) | 22:59 |
| Texrat | damn question page won't scroll properl;y now | 22:59 |
| thiago_home | tomorrow will be 2 years to the day that I met Valtteri for the first time | 22:59 |
| thiago_home | and Quim too | 22:59 |
| burchr | thiago_home: I'm touched that you remember it so exactly :-) | 23:00 |
| Texrat | I just wonder how big a paid staff MeeGo will end up with | 23:00 |
| VDVsx | thiago_home, are you pre-Nokia ? | 23:00 |
| X-Fade | thiago_home: Tss, still young then :) | 23:00 |
| thiago_home | burchr: I remember "spend birthday in Helsinki under snow" | 23:00 |
| arjan | Texrat: I suspect the answer is "many" :) | 23:00 |
| burchr | thiago_home: aha, that makes a bit more sense | 23:00 |
| arjan | Texrat: I doubt intel or nokia will actually say how many people work on <any> project | 23:00 |
| thiago_home | VDVsx: yes, Nokia-Trolltech pre-merger meetings | 23:00 |
| lcuk | lol @ formal procedure | 23:00 |
| lcuk | "two man enter, one man leave" | 23:01 |
| thiago_home | it was a "how does the combined company deal with open source" meeting | 23:01 |
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| Texrat | I asked anyway | 23:01 |
| thiago_home | I also remember Quim wanted Qt to be LGPL back then already | 23:01 |
| burchr | I think most of the Qt using world wanted Qt to be LGPL | 23:02 |
| * burchr hides | 23:02 | |
| Texrat | not hapy with TSG answer... you, dneary? | 23:02 |
| Texrat | happy* | 23:02 |
| tekojo | Texrat meego.com is a site, MeeGo is the distro | 23:02 |
| Texrat | I understand tekojo | 23:02 |
| Texrat | I meant the site | 23:02 |
| X-Fade | Texrat: No, me neither. That means they are a dictator. | 23:02 |
| gcobb | Texrat: Or did you mean supporting the community? | 23:03 |
| achipa | which reminds me... who do we poke about login issues on meego.com ? | 23:03 |
| Texrat | site | 23:03 |
| Texrat | good question Jaffa | 23:03 |
| * Texrat slaps achipa with large trout | 23:04 | |
| tekojo | Jaffa hope they take your question | 23:04 |
| arjan | http://meego.com/about/governance <-- describes the TSG role as "belevolent dictator" (not unlike what most Open source projects have fwiw) | 23:04 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: thanks :) | 23:04 |
| tekojo | achipa it was noted, and the guess was it's related to openid | 23:04 |
| * Texrat waits for timeless_mbp to correct arjan's spelling | 23:05 | |
| thiago_home | arjan: as in "Python, programming the way Guido intended" ? :-) | 23:05 |
| arjan | actual decisions likely happen lower... TSG is mostly for escalations and really hard decisions nobody can agree on | 23:05 |
| * lcuk waves @ tekojo | 23:05 | |
| achipa | ah, sorry, had to flee so I missed the responses | 23:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | sorry, i'm busy reviewing a technical document | 23:05 |
| tekojo | achipa mrshaver should be the person | 23:05 |
| Texrat | no excuse | 23:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | belevolent, cute... | 23:06 |
| timeless_mbp | ve love lent ? | 23:06 |
| dneary | arjan, Delegation is good. Autonomous reputation-based working groups work well | 23:06 |
| * Texrat eats and thanks Stskeeps | 23:07 | |
| GeneralAntilles | auke: probably safe to assume until the agenda is cleared. | 23:07 |
| arjan | just if the working groups can't get an agreement, someone needs to make a decision | 23:07 |
| Texrat | for popcorn | 23:07 |
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| arjan | (this reminds me of a former intel ceo saying "there are no hard decisions. either there is a clear winner (easy) or two proposals are so close that... well in the end it does not matter which you pick, just pick one) | 23:08 |
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| arjan | tsg is for the later case ;) | 23:08 |
| Texrat | I knew the community stuff would be hot | 23:08 |
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| auke | GeneralAntilles: I figured I ask, to confirm | 23:09 |
| Jaffa | Texrat: I'm trying to reply to the Director's Cut questions at the same time ;-) | 23:10 |
| vilvo | Jaffa: glad they picked your follow-up question also | 23:11 |
| Texrat | thanks Jaffa... curious to see your response to mine. ;) | 23:11 |
| Termana_n810 | Checking through the logs, someone asked what platforms would be supported and the answer was OMAP3 and Atom | 23:11 |
| Stskeeps | currently | 23:11 |
| Jaffa | CosmoHill: Isn't that how they do it in Venuezula? i.e. a "are you happy with this decision? yes/no" election? | 23:11 |
| CosmoHill | no idea | 23:12 |
| Termana_n810 | Is this confirmation that theres no chance MeeGo will be built to ARMv6 for OMAP2/N810? | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | Termana_n810: doubt it | 23:12 |
| arjan | Termana_n810: the answer was N900. OMAP3 is not quite a unified platform | 23:12 |
| Jaffa | CosmoHill: i.e. it's a bit Banana Republic. | 23:12 |
| thiago_home | Termana_n810: you can always get the entire distro rebuilt | 23:12 |
| arjan | Termana_n810: I don't think there is a "all omap3 systems" kind of thing that's actually doable easily | 23:12 |
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| CosmoHill | when I've become a member of something I've just been picked by the mods / admin | 23:12 |
| X-Fade | Termana_n810: If everything is opensource, then it is just a matter of recompile. | 23:12 |
| CosmoHill | and nobody objected (that i know of) | 23:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: Maemo _Community_ Council. ;) | 23:13 |
| arjan | X-Fade: on an omap2 it can take a while ;-) | 23:13 |
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| Termana_n810 | Not if you consider that the repo might be armv7 only | 23:13 |
| X-Fade | arjan: Doesn't need to be _on_ device ;) | 23:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: questions only in #meego-meeting-questions | 23:13 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: hasn't DocScrutinizer already asked a question there? | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | ahh, ok | 23:14 |
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| slaine | I'm incredibly late | 23:14 |
| javispedro | heh | 23:14 |
| Myrtti | qgil: if you're voting, why not do it the meetbot way | 23:14 |
| Texrat | working group (WG) a real hot button | 23:14 |
| th0br0 | Myrtti: qgil is not in this channel | 23:15 |
| Texrat | <-- captain obvious | 23:15 |
| Myrtti | *sigh* | 23:15 |
| slaine | is there a log I can glance over to catchup ? | 23:15 |
| * achipa is still curious how the repository-story will play out in this multi-vendor multi-arch multi-UI meego world | 23:15 | |
| Texrat | ^ | 23:15 |
| Myrtti | well that's handy | 23:15 |
| Texrat | achipa that is a big one | 23:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | achipa: I'm curious about everything related to that. ;) | 23:15 |
| lbt | achipa: heh - see my recent QUESTION .... :) | 23:16 |
| Texrat | there should have been a PRE-PRE-MEETING | 23:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: probably for some europeans, the wording "this channel for questions only" would be a litle less ambiguous ;-) | 23:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | achipa: it's unfortunate that Nokia wants to push their own differentiation in favor of real cross-vendor compatibility (where it is technologically and UX-feasible, of course). | 23:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: hey, don't talk to me, _I_ didn't set the topic. *g* | 23:16 |
| javispedro | i'm starting to think that nobody knows the answer | 23:17 |
| javispedro | which is good I guess. | 23:17 |
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| achipa | Texrat: why are you pushing palm here ? ;) | 23:17 |
| dneary | slaine, I don't know if meetbot generates instantaneous minutes or not | 23:17 |
| javispedro | means there's giant hidden conspiracy behinds the scene :) | 23:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Wee, community "represented" by the self-selecting dictators. | 23:17 |
| Myrtti | I don't know if I can be bothered to point the fact that the meetbot has real voting functions in it | 23:17 |
| slaine | ok, can someone give me an overview | 23:17 |
| javispedro | s/there's/there's not | 23:17 |
| Texrat | achipa that only Palm I'm pushing is into my face | 23:17 |
| dneary | slaine, For the raw logs: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.log.txt | 23:17 |
| slaine | are we boned or is all sweet and sunshine or is it somewhere in between ? | 23:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro: no, you had it right the first time. *eg* | 23:18 |
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| Texrat | we have seen the FUD, and it is us... or them... | 23:18 |
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| dneary | GeneralAntilles, Just want to point out that both Imad & valhalla were very pro a MeeGo community council earlier | 23:19 |
| * lbt wonders about the utility of a voting function with 2 voters present... | 23:19 | |
| arjan | unanomous dissent | 23:19 |
| Texrat | <@valhalla_> YES I agree and I support creating this WG as written in the proposal -- time to move forward | 23:20 |
| X-Fade | 2 people in a TG is asking for trouble btw ;) | 23:20 |
| X-Fade | Needs to be uneven number. | 23:20 |
| lbt | it could provide anonymous votes I guess ;) | 23:20 |
| Texrat | agree with X-Fade | 23:20 |
| tekojo | X-Fade you start somewhere | 23:20 |
| lbt | X-Fade: depends if one of them is bigger than the other... | 23:20 |
| Texrat | proposal: one from Intel, one from Nokia, one elected from community at large | 23:21 |
| tekojo | lbt they are on different continents :) | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat: TECHNICAL should be merit-based. | 23:21 |
| Texrat | ? | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Texrat: but limit its mandate to technical issues. | 23:21 |
| Jaffa | Who'd you bet for, the US or Finland, in a violent contest? ;-) | 23:21 |
| Texrat | ah, ok | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | i.e., not democratically selected. | 23:21 |
| Texrat | ooookay... | 23:21 |
| achipa | lbt: gives the moral satisfaction you cannot be voted over | 23:22 |
| Texrat | maybe electoral? :D | 23:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa: what weapons? | 23:22 |
| lbt | whoever hacks the voting system first is on the TSG | 23:22 |
| Texrat | hey the Finns are tough ya'll | 23:22 |
| * GeneralAntilles says we select the TSG by throwing bones. | 23:22 | |
| Texrat | especially those tundra-loving Sami | 23:22 |
| * Texrat throws GeneralAntilles bones | 23:23 | |
| dneary | Thanks valhalla! | 23:23 |
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| Texrat | thanks dneary | 23:24 |
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| Jaffa | Yay, the CWG co-chairs (self-selected) now define a proposal for a *community* council. | 23:25 |
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| Jaffa | Hmm. | 23:25 |
| * Jaffa is in a bitter mood. | 23:25 | |
| Texrat | yeah Jaffa wtf | 23:25 |
| Texrat | ... | 23:25 |
| * achipa ponders about the fact that in Hungarian 'merit' means to dip or to draw on | 23:25 | |
| Jaffa | Probably being overly cynical | 23:25 |
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| Texrat | not the mood, but what you said | 23:25 |
| arjan | Jaffa: how about asking the community council people to organize the WG a bit like the maemo group was organized ? | 23:25 |
| arjan | I bet they'd be very open to that | 23:25 |
| *** anotnac has quit IRC | 23:25 | |
| Texrat | sure we would be | 23:25 |
| Texrat | for the next week | 23:25 |
| gcobb | Jaffa: to be fair -- Quim was in a similar position when the Maemo Community Council was formed | 23:25 |
| *** anotnac_ is now known as anotnac | 23:25 | |
| Jaffa | gcobb: We came up with the proposal then, though. | 23:26 |
| dneary | Jaffa, Then make a proposal & submit it to the CWG | 23:26 |
| gcobb | Jaffa: I hope he will listen to the community this time as well | 23:26 |
| Texrat | yes gcobb but we have been there, done that-- let's move baseed on what we know works | 23:26 |
| Jaffa | dneary: Indeed. But until day one, I guess it's a bit unclear still who the "community" is. | 23:26 |
| dneary | Jaffa, Rather than grumble, we can insist that things work as we want - at least that way if proposals are rejected we can ask why | 23:26 |
| dneary | Jaffa, Certainly | 23:26 |
| Texrat | well gcobb I am not encouraged based on the Linux Foundation travel proposal responses... | 23:26 |
| Jaffa | dneary: i.e. we're suggesting representation for something which is about a dozen people across two mailing lists and an IRC channel. | 23:26 |
| gcobb | Texrat: so we discuss on the -community list and make a proposal, based on what has worked well and what has not worked well | 23:26 |
| Texrat | ok | 23:27 |
| * arjan is pretty sure the CWG wants such proposals to adopt | 23:27 | |
| * DocScrutinizer *HATES* meetings without proper smokers' breaks | 23:27 | |
| tmzt_ | meeting? | 23:27 |
| CosmoHill | haha | 23:27 |
| thiago_home | DocScrutinizer: take your N900 outside | 23:27 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: n900, porch | 23:27 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:27 |
| Texrat | leaving soon | 23:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: seriously, N900 solves all ills. :P | 23:28 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 23:28 |
| * javispedro dislikes reading too times the word "community" | 23:28 | |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: I can't enjoy smoking and same time follow a meeting on N900 :-/ | 23:28 |
| achipa | Portrait mode ! Drink ! | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | DocScrutinizer: n810 was better at that yes | 23:28 |
| colonelqubit | I'm just hoping my battery holds out... didn't expect the meeting to be several hours | 23:28 |
| dneary | Texrat, LF travel fund had a major budget cut this year | 23:29 |
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| Texrat | dneary, from Nokia? | 23:29 |
| dneary | Jaffa, More than a couple of dozen... | 23:29 |
| dneary | Texrat, No, from the LF | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: and smae time I'm anxious about if they come back to locked devices with meego, or if that might be a policy in licence to forbid such shit | 23:29 |
| dneary | Reduced overall budget = reduced travel budget | 23:29 |
| Texrat | dneary sorry my comment was aimed at Jaffa and gcobb based on email discussion | 23:29 |
| slaine | has architecture been discussed yet ? | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | long ago | 23:29 |
| slaine | k | 23:30 |
| X-Fade | slaine: no, more info to come. | 23:30 |
| Texrat | specific to asking Nokia to sponsor prior and next council to LFC | 23:30 |
| colonelqubit | slaine: Basically was "not ready yet, punt" | 23:30 |
| thiago_home | slaine: not much besides "we'll publish a draft soon, will discuss more next meeting" | 23:30 |
| arjan | slaine: detailed arch will liekly be published on "Day 1" | 23:30 |
| slaine | thanks guys | 23:30 |
| slaine | of all days to get delayed, grrrr | 23:30 |
| lbt | I'm not sure what the "We'll handle I8n in the core" means... | 23:30 |
| arjan | day 1 being next week it's not that bad ;) | 23:31 |
| *** therock has joined #meego | 23:31 | |
| CosmoHill | wednesday | 23:31 |
| colonelqubit | I think we'd all like to see a chart like this for Meego: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture | 23:31 |
| lbt | if Meego is a community project then surely having a WG to do it makes sense | 23:31 |
| slaine | I mean't me trying to catchup | 23:31 |
| arjan | colonelqubit: the proposal I've seen looks a lot like that | 23:31 |
| colonelqubit | arjan: good, good | 23:31 |
| arjan | same level of detail at least | 23:31 |
| tekojo | lbt it means that l10n is very important | 23:31 |
| Texrat | proposal for next meeting: have a pre-meeting to stage, filter and pre-select questions | 23:31 |
| arjan | not quite the same presentation in graphics | 23:31 |
| arjan | but you'll live ;) | 23:31 |
| lbt | tekojo: agreed - but there should be a community i/f | 23:32 |
| Texrat | suggestion: add a proposal channel to next meeting /me ducks and runs | 23:32 |
| thiago_home | Texrat: yeah, I think that would be preferable | 23:32 |
| * Jaffa beds. | 23:32 | |
| Jaffa | Will catch up on the log later. | 23:32 |
| tekojo | lbt having met margie I think the community will be heavily in there | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | n8 Jaffa | 23:32 |
| spoussa | and no closed components in the arch picture | 23:33 |
| therock | | 23:33 |
| therock | | 23:33 |
| therock | | 23:33 |
| therock | | 23:33 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps | 23:33 | |
| spoussa | like we have in maemo (bme, etc) | 23:33 |
| Texrat | time to go home, later all | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | arch picture being the shared system amongst devices, right? | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | because i think it'll be a cold day in hell if BME was published open source :P | 23:34 |
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| tekojo | night Texrat | 23:34 |
| spoussa | no red componets like in the link here pointing to maemo.org wiki | 23:35 |
| arjan | Stskeeps: there's a common architecture upto middleware and such (as is on the website now), and then a per device type layer | 23:35 |
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| Stskeeps | arjan: yes, i know | 23:35 |
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| tmzt_ | same source for x86/arm builds? | 23:36 |
| tmzt_ | same package layout? | 23:36 |
| arjan | tmzt_: of course | 23:36 |
| lbt | \o/ | 23:36 |
| arjan | anything else leads only to insanity, and will confuse app writers as well | 23:37 |
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| spoussa | tmzt_: initially the kernel would not be the same | 23:37 |
| arjan | same kernel source hopefully | 23:37 |
| arjan | just different configuration | 23:37 |
| tmzt_ | goal is upstream? | 23:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Emphasis on general community participation, not meetings. . . . | 23:37 |
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| * thiago_home thinks CONFIG_MTRR on ARM is not very useful | 23:37 | |
| lbt | QUESTION: you know about #meego right? | 23:37 |
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| lbt | <grin> | 23:37 |
| Termana_n810 | BME is battery management right? If they open sourced it couldn't that potentially put them at risk of litagation? Thats what i read somewhere anyway. | 23:38 |
| arjan | tmzt_: as close to upstream as we can get away with. this process is also documented on the website | 23:38 |
| tmzt_ | thiago_home: ARCH=arm selects that out | 23:38 |
| tmzt_ | it's not an issue | 23:38 |
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| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: yeah, lots of discussion on that topic | 23:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Termana_n810: that's the argument, anyway. | 23:38 |
| tmzt_ | can dme get a hal? | 23:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Termana_n810: not sure whether or not it would actually pan out that way. | 23:38 |
| tmzt_ | it's not the best solution but if it's the only one | 23:38 |
| janneg | arjan: 2.6.34 will have only limited support for the n900 | 23:38 |
| tmzt_ | look at how atheros worked for a long time | 23:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | I mean, you can blow up your device with or without Nokia's code. | 23:38 |
| arjan | janneg: hopefully a patch can fix that ;-) | 23:38 |
| lbt | quim is seeing his nice minutes blow up... | 23:38 |
| colonelqubit | of course, someone pointed out that if they *don't* open source the driver, people are going to blow some combination of devices, batteries, and people up while they attempt to reverse-engineer the guts | 23:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Termana_n810: other half is that Nokia likes to differentiate on power management | 23:39 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i'd say BME info -helps-.. | 23:39 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps: lawyers, though. | 23:39 |
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| arjan | janneg: a patch does not mean it cannot be the same source + different config | 23:39 |
| arjan | most of the patch will be arch/arm stuff anyway... that gets config'd out | 23:39 |
| Myrtti | it's been a bit funny driving past atheros and broadcom offices. I didn't know should I ask the car to be stopped so I could throw a tantrum at the main entrance, throw rocks at the windows or just drive by with a disgusted glance at the buildings | 23:40 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWdnjLqVWw is always fu | 23:40 |
| Stskeeps | n | 23:40 |
| janneg | arjan: hopefully more than a single patch. it's impossible to do something with nokia's current patch against 2.6.28 | 23:40 |
| javispedro | Myrtti: nuke | 23:40 |
| arjan | janneg: I'd hope so yes | 23:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps: yeah. . . . | 23:40 |
| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, but the driver for the battery IS open source isn't it. Just not the userspace component (BME) | 23:40 |
| arjan | janneg: getting patches as you would submit them to kernel.org is key | 23:40 |
| Termana_n810 | isn't it?* | 23:41 |
| arjan | janneg: (that way we CAN actually submit them upstream ;-) | 23:41 |
| CosmoHill | guys, we need to find out where most of the users are from, and the set the time of the meeting based on that | 23:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | CosmoHill: West Coast USA to UTC+2 | 23:41 |
| javispedro | democracy based time zome? | 23:41 |
| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: I really don't know enough about the issue to speak in any detail. I could dig up the notes somewhere... | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: Stskeeps I'm still not convinced there's a self-destruction trigger red button in BME | 23:41 |
| thiago_home | so if MeeGo is very successful in China, we'll have Chinese timezone meetings? | 23:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | 1400 to 2000 is a reasonable range | 23:42 |
| spoussa | There is quite a many things in the N900 kernel which are not in the ML kernel now. N900 will boot and somehow work but lot of things will not work... | 23:42 |
| Stskeeps | at least I saw the LCD driver being submitted, that was a nice step | 23:42 |
| janneg | arjan: nokia is upstreaming, but not all at once. good for kernel maintainer sanity, bad if you try to use a different kernel with a 300k lines added patch against 2.6.28 with many backports | 23:42 |
| spoussa | Stskeeps: yes, that is already part of the meego work... | 23:43 |
| arjan | spoussa: I understand.. and porting to a more current kernel is a good way to split things up and figure out which pieces are junk etc | 23:43 |
| arjan | spoussa: been there done that ;) | 23:43 |
| tmzt_ | why is dsme kernel specific then? | 23:43 |
| Stskeeps | tmzt_: dsme isn't kernel specific, i run it on x86 | 23:43 |
| tmzt_ | so what's the issue? | 23:43 |
| arjan | janneg: that's why I said "upstream-able patches" not "upstream-already patches" :) | 23:44 |
| tmzt_ | why can't any upstream kernel be used on various nokia tablets? | 23:44 |
| alden | yawn | 23:44 |
| Stskeeps | tmzt_: cos not all the patches are there to supprt it properly | 23:44 |
| Myrtti | *sigh* logical fallacies ftw | 23:44 |
| alden | these things should be better coordinated | 23:44 |
| colonelqubit | CosmoHill: East Coast <-- me | 23:44 |
| CosmoHill | I'll be in BST too | 23:45 |
| CosmoHill | soon* | 23:45 |
| slaine | I'm ready for bed me | 23:45 |
| * CosmoHill pets slaine | 23:45 | |
| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_Maemo#BME | 23:45 |
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| lbt | aww... "they do" :) | 23:46 |
| tekojo | lbt so cute | 23:46 |
| anotnac | quim is on the pull lol | 23:46 |
| gcobb | lbt: held over until next week | 23:47 |
| timeless_mbp | lbt: obviously the other wg's won't formally exist for at least another week :) | 23:47 |
| lbt | missed that :) | 23:47 |
| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, right and BME is only userspace | 23:47 |
| Myrtti | *sigh* | 23:47 |
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| CosmoHill | lbt, tekojo huh? | 23:49 |
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| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: But you can still do quite enough damage to your battery, device, and arm (no, not ARM) from userspace | 23:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: Mr. Question-with-an-obvious-answer. :P | 23:49 |
| tekojo | CosmoHill the YES part in the meeting | 23:50 |
| arjan | GA: Yeah that was already answered... upt o the device maker | 23:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | I *love* the get my share of disappointment a day | 23:50 |
| thiago_home | I also don't think you can enforce what you propose | 23:50 |
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| thiago_home | wouldn't it be a violation of the GPLv2? | 23:50 |
| CosmoHill | [21:45] <valhalla_> Are you OK with the appointment of you and Dawn? | 23:50 |
| CosmoHill | [21:45] <DawnFoster> YES | 23:50 |
| CosmoHill | that? | 23:50 |
| colonelqubit | It's interesting as the question is more a policy question | 23:50 |
| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, right, but we were talking about the fact that the DRIVER was either open or closed | 23:50 |
| lbt | I think we'll take the RWG to -devel for some more discussion then :) | 23:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer: hey, if you without the disappointed, where's the fun in being pleasantly surprised? ;) | 23:51 |
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| lbt | tekojo: did you see http://meego.mkdir.name/logs/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-21-20.02.html | 23:51 |
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| lbt | and http://pastie.org/885472 | 23:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: if a vendor signs on, then they have to sign something like the VSC. | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | arjan: that answer was merely about who's building the BL, though | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: and what if they don't? | 23:51 |
| thiago_home | what's forbidding them from shipping a device? | 23:52 |
| tekojo | lbt no was in a meeting all day :( | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: then they don't get support from the community or other companies involved? | 23:52 |
| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, and its open - drivers/power/twl4030_bci_battery.c | 23:52 |
| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: I think I was the only one who said *driver* -- everyone else was just talking about BME in general | 23:52 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: you can't force the community to do or not do something | 23:52 |
| lbt | tekojo: good - so now you can : | 23:52 |
| lbt | ) | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: obviously we come up with some carrots to make it an appealing proposition. | 23:52 |
| arjan | DocScrutinizer: same answer I suspect thoguh :0 | 23:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yup | 23:52 |
| lbt | gcobb: also see links ^^^ | 23:52 |
| tekojo | lbt now I can fall asleep | 23:52 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: that I can agree with, though I don't think it will happen | 23:52 |
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| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, i know and i was specifically talk to you about the driver because you said driver :P | 23:52 |
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| Termana_n810 | talking* | 23:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: either way, having Nokia basically encourage this sort of slimy behavior is a little sickening. | 23:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | If not at all surprising. | 23:53 |
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| colonelqubit | Termana_n810: Unfortunately I don't have a n900 yet so it would be a bit of trouble to hack on replacing BME even if I wanted to... | 23:53 |
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| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: "slimy" is a matter of opinion | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: can't install your own kernel, potentially can't install your own firmware | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't find those ethical behaviors. | 23:55 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: should I understand you consider Linus slimy because he thinks companies should be allowed to do that? | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Slimy's perhaps not the best word, but it aint warm and fuzzy. | 23:55 |
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| Termana_n810 | colonelqubit, but why would you NEED to replace it, if it works fine? Unless your anal about the fact that you wouldn't be using an open source component | 23:56 |
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| thiago_home | while I don't agree with those companies' positions (personally), I don't think this has anything to do with ethics | 23:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I don't think companies should dictate what I can do with hardware I've bought and paid for. | 23:56 |
| gcobb | lbt: thanks -- will read with interest | 23:56 |
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| Stskeeps | my initial idea of VSC was to play with a open hand on what we expect from a vendor in order to start including their patches for their devices and use community effort and resources on them | 23:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: anyway, whatever. It'll pan out how it will, I don't have any say in the matter. | 23:57 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: you do have a say in the matter | 23:57 |
| Stskeeps | if they lock down the devices or make them unmaintainable for the users or community, they shouldn't expect our effort or resources | 23:57 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: don't buy locked hardware | 23:57 |
| slaine | lbt, that's evolved slightly since I last stuck my ore in. Looks good though | 23:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | thiago_home: easy for me, not so easy for the vast majority of consumers. | 23:57 |
| CosmoHill | thiago_home: you say locked hardware and I hear apple | 23:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | and unfortunate that Nokia is choosing to allow this sort of abuse of their brand. | 23:58 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: because the vast majority of consumers doesn't care | 23:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | It'll reflect negatively on MeeGo and make my job as a community support person that much harder. | 23:58 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: so you see, you're asking for a value that the vast majority of consumers doesn't see | 23:58 |
| thiago_home | GeneralAntilles: you're asking that companies subscribe to something that will not increase the value of their product to most consumers | 23:59 |
| lbt | slaine: did you see the logs and summary? | 23:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | I know, I'm just that sort of unreasonable person. :) | 23:59 |
| slaine | lbt, not sure | 23:59 |
| RST38h | Ok, so, what was the summary? | 23:59 |
| slaine | paste a link and I'll double check | 23:59 |
| Termana_n810 | thiago_home, i don't think that is reason enough to lock down the hardware on a device. In fact it would cost companies less to not lock them down. | 23:59 |
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