IRC log of #meego for Sunday, 2010-03-21

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Cosmo[PB]night night01:29
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PARAGHi guys, do you know anybody in the room who can help me  signing  one symbian application .....ready to donate some money.........urgent  :) ...thanks....Please PM me09:59
Stskeepsit's a meego (maemo and moblin) channel, we're not really symbian (thank god)10:00
Stskeeps:P10:00
RST38hmoo Sts10:01
PARAGany channel u can suggest please ?10:02
Stskeepshttps://www.symbiansigned.com/app/page ? :P10:07
RST38hStskeeps <-- excersies applied sadism =)10:08
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* CosmoHill wonders why he tends to end up holding his pen like a ciggy13:37
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lcukCosmoHill, thats not a problem unless you actually light it13:37
CosmoHillthe is a very good point13:38
CosmoHillit's taken me an hour to find out the price of some software13:39
CosmoHilland even then i've gone "screw it, I'll just write this down and say it works"13:39
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CosmoHilli don't like this assignment13:43
CosmoHilltoo much of it is based on pulling figures out of your arse13:43
lcuki see you are on the microsoft site then13:43
CosmoHill?13:44
lcukonce tried finding prices for things there and had similar run around13:44
CosmoHilli have to make up things for costs, how long things will take and what has to be done to make software13:44
CosmoHillfirst booking software company i went to i was like "however much you paid for your website, it was too much"13:45
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CosmoHillhttp://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=1553&d=110191937315:02
CosmoHilllol15:02
CosmoHillmy old desktop15:02
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lcukCosmoHill, i had something similar15:07
CosmoHillthe first PC that was bought for me as my birthday present15:08
CosmoHilli only wanted speakers :o15:08
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CosmoHill:D15:25
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andresCosmoHill: that looks very dangerous for your neck if youre sitting before it for a longer time15:27
* CosmoHill watches a joke fly over his head15:28
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MiXu-I can't think of a worse desk setup, ergonomics wise :)15:53
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CosmoHillMiXu-: it was many moons ago15:58
MiXu-Yeah, I figured :)15:59
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CosmoHillhttp://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/audio-work.jpg15:59
CosmoHillthere's a newish pic15:59
MiXu-I had a similar setup at one point. My head refused to turn right after a while, so I changed it :D16:00
CosmoHilli've had that issue16:00
CosmoHillI started moving up and down the desk on my chair16:00
lcukCosmoHill, i find having a pair of monitors above each other makes sense16:05
lcukive got my laptop and then a big screen above it16:05
lcukworks better for me than side to side16:05
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CosmoHillon windows you can press win + p to change monitor settings like you would on a laptop16:16
CosmoHillso I use that to enable and disable the 2nd monitor on my desktop16:16
CosmoHillcos i hate it when i open a problem and then have to turn the 2nd montior on to drag it over16:16
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th0br0haha, CosmoHill, i have a similar setup although the second monitor is no umm 20" dell one but just some 17" connected to a dell desktop ;)17:06
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th0br0Stskeeps: i'm just writing some stuff at the same time, so my answered might be slightly delayed :)18:08
Stskeeps:nod:18:08
Stskeepsso, i think first goal should be to get the proposal into a form acceptable similar to what quim described18:09
Stskeepsand to get it tabled for not the first but the next TSG meeting18:10
th0br0i think i haven't read that mail yet, let me check18:11
CosmoHilli swear people continue conversations as if there wasn't a huge gap in it18:11
Stskeepsth0br0: Re: [Meego-community] First TSG meeting this Friday @ 20h UTC , Quim Gil, 'We have included in the agenda the working group proposals that have a'18:12
th0br0ok lemme check18:12
th0br0-dev ?18:12
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Stskeepscommunity18:13
th0br0ah yeah found it18:14
lcukCosmoHill, sure they do18:15
Stskeepshow i personally see the repository working group is a orthogonal working group which helps define policy, aid packaging, etc18:15
CosmoHillyay, i wasn't ignored18:15
th0br0mh ok.18:16
th0br0Stskeeps: yep me too.18:16
th0br0also administration of the community repo imho18:16
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Stskeepsyeah18:16
th0br0and as already listed in that one other meeting log with the preliminary roles stuff, taking care of some OBS aspects.18:16
Stskeepsyeah18:16
th0br0but yep, we are not immediately necessary for MeeGo to get started.18:17
Stskeeps:nod:18:17
Stskeepshence the second meeting18:17
timeless_mbpStskeeps: can you please lodge a formal complaint for me?18:17
timeless_mbpfriday is a totally unfair day for meetings18:17
th0br0timeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday18:18
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday18:18
th0br0Stskeeps: lol18:18
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th0br0mh, my 2 ntfs partitions are seriously fried ... damn it :D18:22
Stskeepsth0br0: so, maybe for the agenda tonight: 1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal18:22
th0br0don't forget 0) introduction to the current build system etc by anaZ should he manage to be around tonite18:23
Stskeeps:nod:18:23
Stskeepshe has written the existing packaging guidelines as well, so that'd be worthwhile18:23
th0br0yep.18:23
th0br0but yeah, i think that's what we should be aiming at.18:23
Stskeepsthe goal is basically to have a packaging policy that benefits instead of cripples :P18:23
th0br0:P18:23
Stskeepsor something18:24
th0br0well, i think that any change in the packaging policy will be difficult to push through  ;)18:24
timeless_mbpStskeeps: tonight?18:24
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* timeless_mbp gets confused about days18:24
th0br0heffer: btw, nice to see you around here, too ;)18:24
th0br0timeless_mbp: yep18:24
CosmoHillhmm, wtf happened there18:24
timeless_mbpwhat time?18:24
th0br0CosmoHill: you ping timed out18:24
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: 20:00 UTC18:24
th0br0timeless_mbp: 20:00 TUC18:24
th0br0*UTC18:24
Stskeepshttp://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group18:24
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CosmoHillth0br0: but only on this server18:24
th0br0CosmoHill: happens from time to time18:24
CosmoHillanother server almost timed out and the 3rd on unaffected18:25
hefferth0br0, :D18:25
timeless_mbpStskeeps: can you convert that to localtime for me? :)18:25
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: 10pm hel-time18:25
th0br0timeless_mbp: what localtime?18:25
timeless_mbpthanks18:25
th0br0^^18:25
timeless_mbpth0br0: mine ;-)18:25
th0br0forgot that you're in helsinki18:25
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timeless_mbpi'll be in stockholm this friday18:26
th0br0ah cool.18:26
timeless_mbpbut people know i'm generally in hel18:26
timeless_mbpbtw, if people know people in stockholm, or happen to be there, please lemme know before i go18:26
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th0br0but that wepad thingy sounds awesome ;)18:27
th0br0s/sounds/sounds\/looks/18:27
th0br0s/sounds/sounds\/looks/g18:27
th0br0mh, no infobot huh?18:28
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps18:28
CosmoHill:o18:28
CosmoHilleveryone, hide!18:28
th0br0why so?18:28
*** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba | Repository WG meeting tonight 20:00 UTC in -"18:28
*** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba | Repository WG meeting tonight 20:00 UTC"18:28
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Stskeepsth0br0: will you want to moderate? you seem to have a good overview as well18:31
th0br0can do.18:31
Stskeepsoki18:31
Stskeepsbrb18:31
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paxcoderif I dev for Maemo now, should it work on MeeGo when it comes out? I hate the idea of accepting the maemo sdk EULA though, will MeeGo be completely free? Should I use QT or clutter instead? I'd like to start working right about now.18:32
th0br0paxcoder: Qt is the way to go18:32
thiago_homeMeeGo is completely free18:33
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paxcoderyes!18:34
paxcoderany tips on how to dev for mobiles accept "use big buttons"?18:35
paxcoderi'd like to create a mockup actually18:36
th0br0?18:37
paxcoderi need to construct an interface to present the basic idea, and so if some people approve, i make it.18:37
thiago_homenot following you...18:38
paxcoderi'd like to follow some (de-facto) standards though.18:38
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thiago_homestill not following you...18:38
paxcoderyou put the buttons, and chose the colors, and then make a screenshot, and say pushing this will do that. and then they say: cool, do that.18:38
Stskeepsthiago_home: meego hw adaptation being completely free is a bit doubtful, but yes, we can work towards it18:39
thiago_homeyes18:39
paxcoderStskeeps: maemo troll :-P18:39
paxcoderi see how you "worked towards it" so far18:40
Stskeepspaxcoder: i did Mer for a year, bit evil to call me a troll over that18:40
thiago_homeif the HW maker doesn't provide open drivers, you have two choices:18:40
thiago_homedon't use the hardware, or use the closed driver18:40
* Stskeeps does know his stuff and why meego is a good thing in terms of open systems.18:40
thiago_home(while you develop the open one, if you can)18:41
paxcoderactually, i wouldn't mind having multiple repos (like Debian) so if people want to use proprietary software, fine - won't get us anywhere but fine. I'd use the crappier and more free version though.18:42
thiago_homeI think it will get us somewhere18:42
thiago_homelike on hardware18:42
Stskeepsand you'd be welcome to, but in some cases, it wouldn't be feasible to avoid the blobs in short term :)18:42
Stskeepsbattery management being one18:42
paxcoderStskeeps: well now you know why i was rude18:42
thiago_homeGL drivers being another18:42
paxcoderor perhaps maemo should go that way, and we another18:43
paxcoderand perhaps choose the phones accordingly.18:43
Stskeepspaxcoder: meego's going the sane direction - fully open core system, hardware adaptation may be closed (buy the phones it's not closed on) and differentiation apps18:43
thiago_home"we" ?18:43
paxcoderthiago_home: MeeGo18:44
thiago_homethere is no more Maemo18:44
thiago_homeit's all MeeGo18:44
thiago_homeanyway, MeeGo will have a fully open core18:44
paxcoderStskeeps: wth is "fully opencore" -huh?18:44
thiago_homewith extra repos for what can't be open, and you use it if you want18:44
Stskeepspaxcoder: the thing all devices share18:44
thiago_homeif you don't want to, it's your choice18:44
Stskeepsbase system, UI toolki, etc18:44
Stskeepst18:44
Stskeepswhat developers build towards18:45
paxcoderthiago_home: no, ppl should be able to chose whether they want the blobs at all or not.18:45
thiago_homeplus differentiation overlays.18:45
thiago_homethey are18:45
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thiago_homedon't use the blobs if you don't want to18:45
paxcoderwell i intend not to. just don't put it in everybody's soup18:45
Stskeepsbase system probably won't rely on any closed source stuff18:46
paxcoderit's harder to pluck out.18:46
Stskeepshardware adaptation is something different18:46
paxcoderStskeeps: you mean like vendors?18:46
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Stskeepsok, so, we all agree that meego (the APIs, the qt stuff, the base system and kernel) is open source18:46
Stskeepsto run on a system you mix it with a hardware adaptation which may be more or less open source18:47
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paxcoderwho is "you" in that sentence?18:47
thiago_homethe core MeeGo will be fully open. You can get all of it.18:47
thiago_homenow, if that will run on the hardware you have on your hands, that's your problem.18:47
Stskeepspaxcoder: joe b coder18:48
paxcoderah, he can do what he wants.18:48
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paxcoderas long as i can change the preinstalled system for the free version, i'm happy18:49
Stskeepsat possible loss of functionality of the hardware, probably18:49
paxcoderyeah, that's my decision.18:49
Stskeepsthen you should be fine, i think18:50
Stskeepsprovided the device is open* (as in able to replace kernel and rootfs)18:50
thiago_homewait18:50
thiago_homeyou're now talking about hardware18:50
thiago_homeyou can get the MeeGo repositories and all the software18:50
paxcoderStskeeps: right. it's version 2 of the gpl. too bad but unavoidable (since it's linux)18:50
thiago_homehardware, however, doesn't come over the Internet18:51
thiago_homeif you want to replace, make sure you buy from a company that allows replacing.18:51
paxcoderStskeeps: N900's system can be changed, right?18:51
thiago_homeyes18:51
thiago_homeit can be18:52
paxcoderit's a deal then ;-)18:52
thiago_homeeven though the part of it that allows the replacing (the bootloader) isn't open18:52
* VDVsx facepalms at -dev18:52
paxcoderthiago_home: is bootloader hardcoded firmwhare or what?18:53
paxcoder*ware18:53
Stskeepsno, just not open. it allows usb flashing and loads unsigned zinages from a flash area18:54
Stskeepszimages18:54
paxcoderstrange18:55
th0br0paxcoder: it's not open because it contains some nokia-private stuff i guess18:55
th0br0it's like the sbl you got for all those HTC devices...18:55
Stskeepspaxcoder: but all things considered, loading a zimage is good enough for me18:56
paxcoderwait, i don't get it18:57
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Stskeepsmm?18:57
paxcoderso you can't flash the loader, you can just add a new zimage?18:58
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Stskeepsyou can flash a new loader if you want but you will shoot yourself in the foot doing it, as your device most likely will be fully bricked18:59
Stskeepsthe closed loader ensures you can always reflash new zimage, rootfs18:59
paxcoderis this because i don't know how a loader should look like, or because there's some kind of DRM implemented that prevents me to modify it?19:00
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paxcoder*from modifying19:00
Stskeepsabout the latter, i don't actually know. first one is likely19:00
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Stskeepsnoone actually tried since noone likes a dead device19:01
Stskeepsand we didnt have a need to replace it19:01
paxcoderah, it'll happen.19:01
paxcoderit's prolly because they don't know how to write a replacement19:02
Stskeepsi'm happy as i can experiment quite deepily with my device and always restore it19:03
Stskeepsand zimage loading is fine for me19:03
paxcoderwell, i don't exactly run Coreboot on my machine either. but still...19:03
Stskeeps:nod:19:04
Stskeepsyou will need some blobs to have a basic os on n900, sadly19:05
paxcoderhow come?19:06
paxcoder*which ones?19:06
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paxcodersee you around19:14
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qgilStskeeps: about working groups in general, I would recomend you to hold on a bit on the formal side (getting a working group approved)19:41
qgilfor two reasons19:41
qgilone because the priority will go for the working groups covering the different UXs / industries: handset, netbook, etc19:41
Stskeepsqgil: yeah, we are in preperation phases19:42
qgiltwo because the definition of a "working group" is going to be hardened, and maybe several of the current proposals won't end up in the form of a working group19:42
qgilbut something more specialized reporting to a working group19:42
qgilthe TSG needs to have a sane amount of direct intefaces to deal with19:42
Stskeeps:nod: would be good to have the definition of such more public19:42
Stskeepsright now we are informally gathering, which is first start19:43
qgilStskeeps: sure, it's not that a detailed definition exists already and is not public  :)19:43
qgilStskeeps: specially in the case of the deb working group getting organized without waiting for blessing is anyway a good idea19:43
qgilsomething we all need to address here is how to get turbo speed in two areas that many times fight each other: industry / community19:44
qgilwe can find many examples of industry success and community success, but both at the same time is damn hard19:45
qgilthis is why the TSG will concentrate first to guarantee industry success, but it is obvious that we won't go too far either if this implies a failure (or crickets, as you put it) in community terms19:46
qgilon the other hand, if we concentrate on all the community needs this is going to be lovely and everything, but without industrial success the companies behind will pull the plug, if the own cutting edge developers haven't done it before19:46
qgilall these are thoughts around the deb packaging working group proposal:19:47
Stskeeps(we are talking about the repository working group one, not deb one right?)19:47
qgilnot required for industrial success (being consistent with one and only one packaging system is more effective than spreading efforts)19:48
Stskeeps:nod:19:48
qgilbut if there is a clear community push for that it is good that this energy is accommodated around the projects, rather than loosing it19:48
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Stskeepsi see repository wg as bringing together the people who are into packaging policy and serve as a orthogonal function in the project to help with packaging, qa process, documentation, etc19:49
qgilthe 'repository working group' probably should end up not as a group reporting directly to the TSG but as a team within the program office, release team or whatever ends up being the name, don't you think?19:49
Stskeepsprobably yes19:49
Stskeepseither way, we don't have those structures (yet), so for most things, we're a group trying to find itself19:50
qgilI mean, there are many topics that are key, but they need to be organized within the right context19:50
qgilStskeeps: sure, I know perfectly well what you mean   :)19:50
Stskeeps:nod:19:51
Stskeepsi think this is also what we are going to talk about tonight19:51
qgilI'll try to be there19:51
Stskeepsit may be a WG beneath a WG, but either way, we need to discuss what we are contributing with19:51
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qgilyes, like in many topics there is no need to wait for official appointments in order to start discussing and creating critical mass19:52
Stskeepsof course - hence us starting work and not asking it to be tabled at first TSG meeting :)19:52
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th0br0qgil: there is red hat  / fedora for industry / community success ;)19:54
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qgilth0br0: yes, what do you think are the keys of their success?19:55
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qgil(if we can apply them beyond the server IT to the mobile industry all the better)19:55
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th0br0mmh.19:56
th0br0that is a good question...19:56
th0br0i think one reason for the community success is the governance model19:56
th0br0let me see whether i can find a vid of the speech max gave at fosdem 2k1019:57
qgilth0br0: I see at least two extra spins MeeGo should do even if achieving all what RedHat / Fedore achieved19:57
qgilone is producing something compelling to end users at large19:57
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qgilI mean, RedHat / Fedora have one part of business for servers, and then another part for workstations, but none of them are really products for regular consumers19:58
th0br0Fedora is getting there though.19:58
* RST38h speaking to nobody in particular, suggests concentrating on concrete things rather than community governance problems19:58
th0br0http://video.fosdem.org/2010/devrooms/distributions/Fedora_Governance.ogv << that's the video just for reference19:59
th0br0RST38h: true19:59
Terje1RST38h, what do you suggest as the first concrete things?19:59
RST38h(making Maemo community services like Extras work properly may be a nice first step =))19:59
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qgilanother extra problem is that RedHat / Fedora grew on top of the Intel/PC era of commoditization, while we have to deal with plenty of innovation and radical changes in the mobile field19:59
th0br0true.19:59
th0br0but yeah... mmh.19:59
RST38h(making Maemo firmware updates work like they do with any NORMAL Linux may be a good second step)19:59
Terje1RST38h, I think you're in the wrong channel, then. :-)19:59
Stskeepsqgil: i'm assuming the general structures of the project will be presented wednesday?20:00
RST38hTerje: Oh, I am sure Meego will hit exactly the same set of issues. So, resolving them in the existing system may well be a good initial step20:00
qgilRST38h: I keep insisting that "normal" Linux is "x86 Linux" since the ARM camp is anything but "normal" these years  ;)20:00
th0br0qgil: i think that sth like LTS releases should be used for meego.20:01
th0br0don't forget about x86_64 tho, unless you count that as part of x86, too20:01
qgilStskeeps: no idea, really20:01
RST38hTerje: But, as far as Meego is concerned, I would say talk.meego.com, base system in an open version control system, and documentation will be the top priorities now20:01
Stskeepsqgil: alright20:01
RST38hqgil: Regular updates to individual system packages have nothing to do with architecture20:01
qgilth0br0: yest LTS on ARM architecture is a noble goal that I hope MeeGo can offer, even if nobody I'm aware of has done such thing before20:01
th0br0yup.20:01
RST38hqgil: (as opposed to huge updates that take months to arrive)20:02
Terje1RST38h, good goals.20:02
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th0br0well, it is an utmost requirement for the industry anyway20:02
qgilRST38h: talk is coming, there is even a link to test somewhere20:02
RST38hqgil: And of course, there is such a thing as prioritization. If 100+ users repeatedly scream "it is broken", any PR person will tell you what to do in a split second20:02
qgilRST38h: base system is also coming, that is the first code release with a documented target architecture20:03
th0br0RST38h: that's what i'd say such LTS releases are for.20:03
Terje1qgil, "documented target architecture?"20:03
th0br0in the end, QA for these LTS releases should be a separate WG imho20:03
RST38hqgil: Well with those two accounted for, the remaining one is the documentation20:03
th0br0unless that is taken care of by the industry/nokia/intel20:03
qgilRST38h: documentation also coming... probably with a bit of lag20:03
RST38hqgil: Something like maemo.org docs/reference page, just better organized would be cool20:03
Stskeepsth0br0: i think there'll be a release team probably20:04
th0br0yeah Stskeeps20:04
Stskeepsth0br0: which would take care of those things20:04
qgilTerje1: well, I expect the MeeGo project to have a some point a detailed architecture diagram showing what are we aiming to put together  :)20:04
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Terje1qgil, ok, I thought you knew something that I didn't. :-)20:05
th0br0qgil: btw, will there be community seats on the TSG?20:05
qgilTerje1: that is not a goal in my career  ;)20:05
qgilth0br0: by community you mean individuals on their own?20:06
th0br0elected community representatives20:06
Stskeepsi'm actually a bit confused about community seats in this governance model.. i mean, it is not a democracy, it's a meritocracy - if you show your worth you'll be included20:06
th0br0basically like the maemo board.20:06
Stskeepsideally we'll end up having difficulties seeing what's nokia side, intel side or people living in their parent's basements side20:06
qgilth0br0: I have been wondering myself what would be the role of a 'community council' maemo.org style in the MeeGo context20:07
th0br0ah ok20:07
Stskeepswhere you're evaluated of what you have done, instead of how much you've been able to be a politican getting a vote :P20:07
qgilI honestly believe that MeeGo requires a meritocratic direction, just like most free software projects have20:07
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qgilGNOME, Debian and others do have elected roles, but ...20:08
Stskeepsif we want to have a release out, meritocracy (sadly?) is the only way to go20:08
qgil1. either they are not directly involved in core decision processes20:08
qgile.g. GNOME Foundation board vs GNOME release tea,20:08
qgil2. or the universe of voters is quite restricted20:09
qgile.g. Debian project leader20:09
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qgilwhich is a combination of meritocratic democracy  :)20:09
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Terje1qgil, neither of those projects are aiming ultimately to well-selling products.20:10
qgilth0br0: why don't you ask the Maemo Community Council candidates?  I also think that any initiative must be started actually by them, since is the only "internal" reference we have20:10
th0br0true20:10
Stskeepsi think it might be useful to see these non-nokia-non-intel initiated WG's is a way for people to start showing their work - people will gladly contribute if they're given a workshop to do it in20:11
qgilTerje1: agreed20:11
Stskeepsor feel like they fit in the project somewhre20:11
ShadowJKthose videos where nokia people were on stage with maemo council people and answering journalist questions gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. need some replacement provider of warm fuzzy in the meego age too :)20:11
qgilStskeeps: that is very true. Now it looks like the TSG is a "sexy" place to be if you want to exercise power20:11
Stskeeps(but provided the WG's work in the open, this should come automatically)20:11
Terje1qgil, in fact, I can't think of any community project with such a goal. It might be that we have something unique to buld.20:11
Terje1build20:12
qgilhowever, we can see from fully developed free software project that the sexy places for exercising power are somewhere else20:12
qgilgenerally closer to the code20:12
qgilTerje1: well, the Linux Foundation   ;)20:12
Terje1qgil, ah...20:13
qgilthere is something mentioned about voting rights at http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/bylaws - but I have beeter things to read on Sunday evening  ;)20:15
th0br0:)20:15
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qgilactually it looks like there is only a corporate membership, not individual membership20:17
Stskeepsth0br0: maybe it would be worthwhile to consider repo WG as a team - as in, similar to infrastructure maintaince(sp) - where we're a support function for all teams and work areas to help provide collaboration spaces (and the policies, software, support etc) that comes along20:17
qgiland I don't know if there is any democracy at all in the structure of maintainers of kernel.org20:17
Stskeepswhere our goal isn't to wield power, but to maintain sanity and balance or something20:18
Terje1Stskeeps, hmm, so that's how we nerds are supposed to maintain sanity. No wonder I haven't succeeded.20:18
StskeepsTerje1: one example can be someone reviewing your repo inclusion request and giving feedback on your packaging20:19
th0br0Stskeeps: don't our goals however lead us to the same role regardless of our position?20:19
Stskeepsth0br0: right20:19
th0br0still, i'd say that you have this repo WG and a repo Team ;) where repo WG is the administration of the repo Team. dunno. just ... say, for each packet to get included, you have to pass a review process by another packager.20:20
Stskeeps:nod:20:20
Stskeepsi think it's a support function and a research function in one20:20
th0br0yep20:20
Stskeepsone for day to day work, one for helping things in the future20:21
th0br0yep. and also partly controlling the day to day work20:21
Terje1There definitely would be value in good-quality packaging.20:24
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Stskeepsit also makes sense from a economic point of view, this is an area volunteers really can make a difference :P20:27
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Terje1Stskeeps, and an area which has been traditionally been in bad shape.20:28
Terje1Stskeeps, let's face it: only special kind of people find packaging interesting.20:29
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lcukTerje1, so why are so many picking up pitchforks about deb/rpm20:30
Stskeepslcuk: those people also traditionally don't like change20:30
Stskeeps:P20:30
Terje1lcuk, beats me.20:30
lcukmeh - installshield would be cooler (H)20:31
SWFu64rpm boooo20:31
Terje1Stskeeps, hmm, I really did not intend "special" in any bad way. I hope you didn't either. :-)20:31
qgilthe deb/rpm debate reminds me the reasons why I stopped loving football or politics in my motherland: people discussed about football when in fact they were discussing ab out politics and the other way around20:32
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StskeepsTerje1: i use my 'specialness' to do cool things, i'm in no way offended :)20:32
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Terje1Stskeeps, did I hear evil laughter?20:34
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StskeepsTerje1: hehe20:34
qgilRST38h: did you say forum? there is http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ meego meego looking for testers20:35
qgilit's a vBulleting like talk.maemo.org integrated with a drupal like meego.com for common userid20:35
qgilfeedback about this test forum to the meego-community list please20:36
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qgilOpenID works well! Having CMS & forum integrated login with OpenID compliance is already more than what we could ever achieve in maemo.org....  :/20:41
th0br0qgil: we don't have the password etc though20:42
Stskeepsa clean slate is good for so many reasons20:42
Stskeepsth0br0: for forum it's meego/meego20:42
qgilth0br0: password etc?20:42
th0br0fro drupal too :)=20:42
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penguinbaitis Reggie involved in http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ ?20:43
Stskeepsit's his site, afaik20:43
th0br0but the meegotalk.com accs are different from meego.com right?20:43
Stskeepsthe idea is them not being, i think20:44
th0br0then I'll not register yet20:44
qgilpenguinbait: meegotalk.com is the test bed he put in place to give a try to the drupal/vBulletin integration. It's not meant to be a final site20:46
qgilpenguinbait: once we are happy about the test then Reggie will put in place the final one in the meego.com servers, integrated with the current meego.com Drupal20:46
th0br0that's cool20:46
qgilany content in the test site will move to another dimension not accessible to humans20:47
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qgilah, there is even a fluid width version in addition to the static width version! http://meegotalk.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=6&page=2&styleid=320:54
qgila discussion we won't have  ;)20:54
th0br0^^20:54
* qgil already misses the Thanks button20:54
Terje1qgil, I thought you had better things to read on a Sunday evening. That's not better thing to read.20:55
qgilTerje1: your comment remind me that it's time for dinner even for a Mediterranean guy like me20:55
Terje1qgil, no, that was five hours ago.20:56
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qgilactually there is something interesting that is not the talk.maemo.org Thanks button but interesting nonetheless:20:57
qgil"Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No"20:57
th0br0i tend to dislike that20:57
th0br0if ppl thank every user it really gets annoying ;)20:57
qgilnot in talk.maemo.org20:57
Stskeepsi'm still wondering if i'm having a record at 398 thanks for one post or not20:58
qgiland if that helps triaging the flesh from the noise...20:58
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Terje1We Finns cannot be asked to give that much feedback.20:58
th0br0why not Terje1?20:58
qgilTerje1: I'm actually starting to get worried about your verbosity - it must be the weekend  ;)20:58
Terje1th0br0, so you haven't been to Finland?20:59
Terje1qgil, oops, should probably dig back into my cave. :-)20:59
th0br0unfortunately not. i haven't been to any of those countries on your half-island at all so far.20:59
Terje1Half-island?20:59
th0br0well, yes?20:59
Terje1What's a half-island?21:00
th0br0oh21:00
th0br0peninsula21:00
zaheermit's a pity about the TSG meeting time, would have been nice to make it at least to observe...wednesday evening is he only weekday evening i can not make any week21:00
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Terje1th0br0, only Finland is in the same peninsula, so no other countries.21:01
th0br0so you'd say that sweden and norway are on another?21:01
Terje1th0br0, yes, in Scandinavia.21:01
th0br0what peninsula is finland on, then?21:02
th0br0i mean, is there any geographical separation?21:02
thiago_homeyes21:02
Terje1th0br0, I'm not sure it's a peninsula at all. We're pretty well attached to the mainland.21:02
th0br0mh, true. :)21:02
Terje1th0br0, at least I've never heard of Finland being said to be on a peninsula, so it's a weird though.21:03
Terje1thought21:04
th0br0mh, no idea.21:04
th0br0but yeah, you are still pretty much connected to the mainland21:04
qgilIsland could be considered sometimes a half-island: accessible with a boat from the south but you can walk up to the North Pole (with some preparation)21:04
Terje1th0br0, anyway, we're not in Scandinavia, but welcome to any of the Nordic countries anyway. :-)21:04
qgilIceland21:04
timeless_mbpfinland isn't part of scandinavia proper21:05
th0br0http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%93afods%C4%ABde o.O21:05
timeless_mbpand scandinavia is a peninsula...21:05
th0br0The Scandinavian Peninsula is a geographic region in northern Europe, consisting of Norway, Sweden and part of northern Finland.21:05
th0br0ok21:05
Terje1th0br0, hm. I wonder which part of Finland belongs to Scandinavia. I guess I'll have to look it up.21:06
timeless_mbpTerje1: lapland :)21:06
th0br0^^21:06
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timeless_mbpor rather probably the section physically adjacent to sweden :)21:06
qgilÃ…land?21:07
Terje1qgil, that's a stretch.21:08
thiago_homeisn't Ã…land an island?21:08
Terje1thiago, yes.21:08
Terje1Ahvenanmaa in Finnish. Ã…land in Swedish.21:09
Stskeepsah, i actually thought aaland was swedish21:09
* Stskeeps learns something new today21:09
Terje1Stskeeps, mentally it is.21:09
qgilStskeeps: some people have to concentrate mentally more than others, though21:10
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hefferlbt, i'll be a bit late for the meeting as we're having an unexpectedly late dinner21:51
lbtheh np21:51
lbtin #21:51
lbt#meego-meeting IIRC21:51
Stskeepslbt, good flight?21:52
lbtyeah21:52
lbtforgot the laptop PSU though :(21:52
th0br0aww lbt21:53
th0br0heffer: anaZ doesn't seem to be here yet anyway21:53
th0br0but in the end, if he isn't around, he isn't21:53
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Stskeepslbt, http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T18:22:38 and http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T19:41:11 might be good pre-reading21:56
lbtare we in here or m-m?21:56
Stskeepsm-m21:56
clintcanHi guys, I'm here for the meeting.21:56
th0br0good.21:56
th0br0btw, Stskeeps, mind opping me in #meego-meeting?21:56
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lbtStskeeps: yes21:58
lbtI think my intentions are about scoping out this area21:58
lbtwe say "extras" but given that meego-core is quite small21:58
th0br0besides, Stskeeps / lbt  1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal are any of these topics that you want to cover?21:58
lbtI think we mean Universe21:58
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lbtth0br0: that's a broad description :)21:59
th0br0those are just some points on the agenda21:59
lbt2) makes a lot of sense21:59
th0br0but we'll see eventually22:00
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lbtI guess I want to add 'Build Systems' in to it22:00
lbtas that is a key part22:00
lbtalso QA22:00
Stskeepseither way we need to figure out where we belong :)22:01
lbtI also have a point about "Vendor Meego"22:01
lbtyeah - I'm making some mental assumptions22:01
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lbtgah22:07
lbthotels22:07
th0br0^^ lbt22:07
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qgilStskeeps: are there logs available for meego-meeting? I want to see what have I missed in the current meeting22:17
Stskeepsqgil, yes, hang on - i'll post them for you22:17
lbtnot much22:17
lbt"it's a big space"22:17
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Stskeepsqgil: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-2010.txt22:19
th0br0qgil: i'll post a ordered & structured log later on22:20
qgilStskeeps: thanks!22:20
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lbthmm, we should have Meego:Community:* as a release based area too22:38
qgilwhat is "glob"?22:38
Stskeepsi think it means "dump everything related to a release into one repository"22:38
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qgilI see22:39
Stskeepsincluding all community apps, base system, etc22:39
achipastill, I have doubts how the QA is supposed to work across devices... what is acceptable on one might not be on the other22:40
achipaalso, the extras size problem is not due simply to the number of packages, but our rules of what goes in packages... it could be 1/4-1/5 the size, easy22:41
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qgilI wonder if we have one repo for all UXs or one repo for each UX... and how useble are the apps targeting one UX to another one22:42
lcukwhat happens when apps have multi UX QML uber ui?22:43
qgillcuk: ?22:43
lcukwell i submit open source app to the nokia repository22:43
qgilIf QML is supported in MeeGo, then it¡s supported22:43
lcuksomeone else makes a new qml frontend for in car system22:43
lcuksame app - 2 uis22:43
lcukwhich repos is it in22:43
qgil2 apps22:43
qgil?22:44
qgilno idea  :)22:44
qgilone app for handset UX might scale well automatically for the other UXs, but the other way aorund...22:45
lcukyeah i know22:45
lcukwas just a ponderment22:45
qgilthinking out loud myself22:45
lcukcos app developers usually target the place they feel comfortable and can test22:45
achipathe app should 'know' or 'declare' which UX-es it supports ?22:46
achipaotherwise you can't assume anything22:46
lcukachipa, but thats the thing - a small ui can happily grow to fill a bigger space22:46
slainethats what I was getting to about the mulit-platform22:46
lcukso even though developer X writes an app and only submits it to one repo22:46
lcuksomeone else might push it for a larger form factor22:46
achipalcuk: cool, then it can say so :) what I'm saying is that your small UI for fingers might be run on something non-thouchscreen22:47
achipatouchscreen*22:47
qgilstill, the UI can respond to clicks22:47
lcukthe ui will respond to clicks22:47
lcukcos thats all a touchscreen does22:48
qgilisn't the main problem screen resolution?22:48
lcuknahh, not upwards22:48
qgilwhat will be the smallest handset resolution supported and the biggest netbook?22:48
qgilI believe the other ones are less relevant, but no idea22:48
lcukthats for the HW people to decide22:48
achipaupwards it more of a visual issue22:48
achipait can be ugly, especially if the aspect ratio is different22:49
qgilachipa: but I guess the good MeeGo developer implements fluid UIs?22:49
qgilthis is not the land of a single device anymore22:49
lcuki think achipa was thinking purely bitmap/pixel based layouts22:50
achipaqgil: yikes ! that's what is probably the single most hated thing is Symbian right now...22:50
qgileven within the same UX different aspect ratios are expected22:50
lcuk800*480 / 480*80022:50
achipais=in... duh22:50
lcuksome apps can handle that nicely, others look crap22:50
achipalcuk: yeah, but that's just two22:50
qgilportrait mode in your in-car entertainment might be indeed dangerous  ;)22:50
lcuklol qgil, just wait until we have entire central panels of lcd :D22:51
lcukthe full column22:51
lcuk:D22:51
achipasadly, fluid UI-s are just as good as the people implementing it22:52
achipathe web is the perfect example... in theory you are almost completely resolution agnostic. In theory.22:53
lcukits designers that spoil that lol22:53
lbtth0br0: not quite what I meant - discuss l8r22:54
lcukam i the only one whos reading the full stops aloud in the voice of commentor as "over"22:55
lcuk.22:55
qgilI have no idea, I just repeat what others do, like a monkey  :)22:56
lcuki do like the ! ? format22:56
lcukminimal disruption but shows you have a point to make22:56
slainewe where asked to use EOF at the start of the meeting, I seem to be the only one doing that22:56
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slainelcuk: yes, the talking stick22:56
slainelol22:56
* achipa wonders if we're going to end up with the conclusion that fluid UI's are not an option, but a practical requirement22:58
th0br0lbt: mhk22:59
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lbtI like "."22:59
lbt.22:59
timeless_mbplbt / th0br0: dealing w/ queues and buckets is WAY TOO complicated for my tiny little mind22:59
timeless_mbpi just finished watching a two hour movie22:59
th0br0;) timeless_mbp22:59
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: what'd you watch?22:59
lbtheh - I just landed!#22:59
timeless_mbpafter the sunset23:00
timeless_mbpfwiw, w3 has a very smart bot which manages queues and stuff23:00
qgilachipa: up to the developers?23:00
lcukslaine, http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Source-Control-Shingle.aspx23:00
timeless_mbpbut i'm not going to play w/ anything that isn't that bot23:00
timeless_mbpi don't want people to say "you didn't speak up at the right time"23:01
timeless_mbpnor do i want to hear people say "you spoke out of turn"23:01
Stskeepsirc is a horrible medium to moderate :P23:01
timeless_mbpStskeeps: as i said, w3 has an irc bot which works23:01
Stskeepsurl?23:01
timeless_mbpit's used by large working groups w/ realtime meetings both f2f and telco23:01
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timeless_mbphttp://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html23:02
clintcanhi, my connection got cut off (real flakey isp), is there any log to what happened at m-m?  Need to catch up.23:02
timeless_mbpits partner in crime is http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent fwiw23:02
Stskeepsclintcan: i'll quickly update my url, sec23:02
timeless_mbpand it really can deal w/ s/// expressions23:02
timeless_mbpoh, and for kicks, zakim can place calls and mute noisy audio entries23:02
timeless_mbpiow, i'm spoiled23:03
achipaqgil: the question is whether policies encourage multi-device/multi-UX applications, or will it mean heavy per-device work...23:03
clintcanStskeeps: ok, thanks.23:03
timeless_mbpbut i'm not going to settle for anything less :)23:03
Stskeepsclintcan: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-201023:03
timeless_mbpth0br0: i think that my discussion was probably more about libcurl23:03
qgilachipa: no idea, but Qt and Web Runtime put strong effort on the cross-platform aspect23:03
timeless_mbpbut as a dev, i'd like to claim that i don't know or care about the difference23:03
clintcanStskeeps: thanks23:04
achipaqgil: you can say that for companies, there is an interest for the app to work on as much devices as possible. With community apps, this is much more difficult, the original author might care little if his stuff does not work right on some Random MeeGo Product (TM)23:04
timeless_mbpoh, and rrsagent doesn't minute /me (actions), which means chatter doesn't have to be in another channel23:04
qgilachipa: sure, but if there would be clear guidelines to follow if you want to make your app multiplatform-friendly...23:05
lcukpure qt would be a good start for that23:05
qgilachipa: even most community developers prefer to have 10x users instead of x  :)23:05
* timeless_mbp notes that qgil is reading from a marketing script (re Qt/WebRuntime)23:05
qgiltimeless_mbp: in my experience life is never as pink as in marketing scripts, neither as gray as in engineers' scripts  :)23:06
achipalcuk: pure Qt doesn't even include QML yet :)23:06
lcukthen its not a problem is it23:06
timeless_mbpqgil: sure, but you just read achipa a pink line23:06
lcukwrite your app with the framework that does the job for you now23:06
lcukand worry about the future when it comes23:06
qgiltimeless_mbp: read my line again, carefully written  :)23:07
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timeless_mbpqgil: the English was crap :)23:07
timeless_mbpso you'll forgive me for not just treating it as a pink marketing line23:07
qgiltimeless_mbp: I wish I could show off my best English on IRC23:08
timeless_mbpand if you're volunteering to fix some pink lines, i've got a bunch that need scrubbing :)23:08
* timeless_mbp likes pink23:09
timeless_mbpit's like raw meat23:09
thiago_homeqgil: it looks like you're accomplishing it here :-)23:09
qgiltimeless_mbp:  your IRC nick actually appears in pink in my pidgin #meego room  :)23:09
achipalcuk: sadly, that's dangerously close to 'don't code anything', as there is nothing out there that actually does the job (and is not a git build of something).23:10
timeless_mbpthiago_home's rows get pink here for me, you're some turquoise23:10
thiago_homeit's all the same colour to me23:11
lcukachipa, application toolkits of the qt ilk exist to create apps, if they are failing in that (which from what i can see it isnt) then another must be saught23:11
lcukbut meego is based on qt23:11
lcukand hence, pure qt should be the baseline for a meego compliant app23:11
lcukqml parsing ontop of that is just an abstraction23:12
thiago_homemaking apps is one thing23:12
thiago_homemaking _good_ apps is another23:12
thiago_homethere's only so much the toolkit can do for you23:12
achipalcuk: and sadly, pure qt is a lowest common denominator, making things quite difficult23:13
achipalcuk: to link back to the problem of multiple UXes above, if we do pure qt it will be a hell of a job making a MeeGo app that 'looks' and 'feels' right23:14
lcuklbt, there should be a group working to implemnt cross platform standard apis in qt23:15
Stskeepslbt: n900?23:15
Stskeeps:P23:15
lcukachipa, well hang on a minute23:15
lcukqt is marketed to do exactly that23:15
lcukcode once, use anywhere23:15
lcukit uses the system native widgets to maintain a natural look?23:15
thiago_homeand where Qt is the native, just make Qt styles23:15
lcukyes23:16
thiago_homeanyway, we're investigating what happens on these brand, new UXs23:16
thiago_homeif they are going to be so different from the desktop, maybe Qt needs to offer some more23:16
lbtreally this was another "We need to watch this area closely"23:16
thiago_homewe're working on it23:16
achipayes, all that is nice (pink line ? :) ), but then comes DUIfunk23:16
thiago_homeQML is one front, UI extension widgets are another23:16
achipanot to mention the line towards Symbian...23:17
lcukbut wouldnt a QML textbox devolve into a qt textbox which would devolve into a system textbox23:17
thiago_homelcuk: there isn't a QML textbox now23:17
thiago_homebut if there were, yes, that's the objective23:17
thiago_homea system textbox is the system is not Qt23:17
lcukjust like basically what happens in web browser FORM INPUT elements23:17
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thiago_homeona Qt-based system, I'd expect it to be just another QML Rectangle with lots of child items23:18
achipaand then the 'but then why do we need DUIbutton....' war starts... :(23:18
lbtqgil: I don't know.23:18
thiago_homeyes23:18
lbtdoes that mean if you use a vendor API you can't build on Meego BS?23:18
lcukso will native qt be a second class citizen to qml?23:19
lbtth0br0: hah!!23:19
thiago_homelcuk: don't know yet23:19
lbtpart of commercial vendor is they want to be different...23:19
* lcuk gulps23:19
timeless_mbpcan't i build on gtk/clutter? :)23:20
timeless_mbpit's in MeeGo :)23:20
thiago_homestandard Qt widgets will never do the same kind of animations and whiz and candy that you can do in QML23:20
thiago_homeor Clutter, for that matter23:20
lcukdoesnt matter to the 99% of app config editors out there23:20
thiago_homeso if the UX goes in that direction, the standard widgets will be "legacy"23:20
lcukthe eye candy in use will not be whizz bang in every single app23:21
thiago_homeif it doesn't go that far, they'll be the first-class23:21
qgillbt I don't know, but seeing how "Nokia binaries" are treated in the Maemo SDK there are probably a couple of legal tweaks to be made to provide such proprietary APIs in e.g. a Linux Foundation server, even regardless LF and MeeGo policies23:21
slaineThere also needs to be a consistent level of eye candy23:21
timeless_mbpbtw, i'd like to propose banning WebRuntime as a baseline for apps23:21
lcukim just thinking of the company thats written their app to work now23:21
qgillbt but I really don't know, this is not an area where I'm involved23:21
thiago_hometimeless_mbp: why?23:21
lcukbased on the yeares of "code once deploy anywhere"23:21
timeless_mbpbecause it's incredibly unlikely that webruntime will actually be properly portable23:21
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slaineif a text box behaves in some whiz bang way for app1, then it should do the same for appn23:22
lbtqgil: yes - I want to promote consolidation, not diversification23:22
timeless_mbpthiago: no two web runtimes are compatible23:22
timeless_mbpand vendors love adding apis to them23:22
lbtand at this point I just want to raise awareness... :)23:22
lcuktimeless_mbp, similar to the location api ?23:22
qgillbt but it makes sense that vendors try to do business and not only based on hardware & price points23:22
lcukthat had to be added to browser?23:22
lbtand for the community side - suggest that it factors in to designs.....23:22
lbtagreed23:22
timeless_mbpthere's generally no way to determine which APIs a given 'app' built around a web runtime actually use23:23
lbtand we may find that an app needs to have #ifdefs for vsarious vendor APIs23:23
timeless_mbpwhich means you can't really determine portability23:23
lbtbut ideally would be a single effort for the dev23:23
achipalcuk: NOW tell me not to worry about the future :D23:23
timeless_mbplcuk: re location api? probably23:23
qgillbt otoh if the MeeGo API is good and complete then vendors need to provide APIs *very* good and *very* complete23:23
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lbtI do hope it will turn into a no-op as I said at the start.... but I don't want to bet the farm on that :)23:24
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qgilno-op?23:25
lbta null operation23:25
lbtie no work to handle it23:25
lcukachipa, i am saddened then by this.  the expectation was that qml would build ontop of standard qt - and allow embedding standard qt widgets (for performance where necessary)23:25
lbtbecause they all use the same APIs :)23:25
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thiago_homedifferent canvas23:26
thiago_homestandard Qt widgets can't fit in QML23:26
thiago_homehorrible performance23:26
lcukthere isnt going to be a QML webkit widget for instance23:26
lcukbut you should be able to instantiate one23:26
lcukwithin your qml definition23:27
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qgilPerhaps what will happen is that developer will go either the Community Way using the plain MeeGo (official & community) APIs23:27
lcukor choose one of a million other widgets for doing things - the qml glue around is just like python23:27
qgilor either Vendor Way, focusing on determinate vendors and playing with their SDKs and app stores23:28
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* achipa can't shake the feeling this weakens both community devs (bad UI experience and integration with vendor stuff) and commercial devs (fragmentation support hell)23:29
Stskeepsachipa: on the other hand, it is impossible to standardize on everything..23:29
Stskeepsi mean, vendors may move quicker than community23:29
qgilachipa: at the end users buy Device X23:29
lcukStskeeps, its normally the other way round23:30
lcukbecause vendors become locked to their codebase23:30
qgilachipa: the apps available will be defined by the Device Vendor X store + MeeGo repo23:30
Stskeepslcuk: i'm not always sure of that.. it's a nice thought, but communities can also have tunnel vision23:30
achipaStskeeps: absolutely, but that's why in the past Qt was so much fun, it technically WAS the vendor level23:31
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lcuknahhh all it takes in community for a new version of something is one dev sat in his bedroom23:31
RST38hWhat vendors? We know of exactly ONE vendor right now, and it is Nokia23:31
lcukfor business there is normally a 3 month discussion about what to call it23:31
Stskeepsand orange and lg? :P23:31
achipaRST38h: and LG23:31
timeless_mbplcuk: i think meego was named in a lot less time than that ;-)23:32
RST38hAnd LG, which is not saying much (they are completely opaque)23:32
* lcuk giggles23:32
qgilRST38h: MeeGo will have many diverse vendors, or there will be no MeeGo and this discussion will be pointless :)23:32
timeless_mbppoorly, but that's neither here nor there ;-)23:32
slaineDon't forget about the alternative spins too23:32
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RST38hqgil: Then the discussion should really take place WHEN there are at least a few diverse vendors.23:32
qgilRST38h: you mean now23:33
lcukthen you are playing catchup23:33
achipaqgil: urrrm, when you say MeeGo repo do you mean the system level stuff or the 'community' repo23:33
RST38hYep23:33
slaineThere's probably going to be a OpenSuse MeeGo spin, a Ubuntu MeeGo Remix spin, etc23:33
timeless_mbpwhat's a spin?23:33
qgilachipa: community repo, we are talking about "third party apps" now23:33
slaineDell shipping a modified version of the later I think23:33
RST38hslaine: none of these are hw vendors, nor do they exist...23:33
slaineSee last comment23:33
timeless_mbpRST38h: dell is :)23:33
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RST38hIs Dell shipping Meego? Is there a version of Meego right now that Dell intends to ship?23:34
slaineI believe Novell signed up some OEM's for their  Moblin spins too23:34
RST38hLast time I checked, Dell has been shipping Android.23:34
slaineRST38h: They ship Moblin 2.123:34
qgilRST38h: LG, Orange and Nokia have announced products23:34
qgilthis is current work23:34
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RST38hOk. The Orange's product, who makes it23:34
RST38h,23:34
qgilask Orange23:35
RST38hAll right23:35
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achipaqgil: well, announced is strong word... or are you counting the Harmattan device as MeeGo ?23:35
RST38hBTW, Nokia has not announced a product, just an intent to produce one23:35
RST38hTow others as well, right?23:35
qgilhey, no worries - don't discuss about the scenarios with several vendors if you think it's too early  :)23:36
achipa(not doubting there will be a 'real' Nokia MeeGo product soon, just sticking to facts :) )23:36
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* RST38h thinks this should be pretty low level technical stuff23:36
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RST38hYou want to 1) have multiple repositories 2) have certain functionality for these (including user ratings and comments straight from HAM) and 3) have a scheme to distribute paid content through repos (real scheme, not the current hacker bait)23:37
RST38hAll the rest (multiple vendors, etc) is high level business stuff that has no relation to any of the present people, at least outside of their NDAs, if signed23:38
lcukafk23:38
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* Stskeeps is pondering to hit the hay too, woke up at 5:30 and met with some bad compile errors that needed beating23:39
achipathe multi-vendor question will be important in the sense that if not handled properly/timely, it will splinter (at the minimum) the community app section23:39
RST38hachipa: You can get to that when you get actually multiple vendors23:40
RST38hachipa: In general I doubt it will happen because the basic APIs (Qt etc) offered to these vendors are quite humane23:40
* timeless_mbp eyes achipa23:40
timeless_mbp(you triggered nick highlighting)23:40
achipawill be interesting to see if the different time-to-actual-device will mean something here, in effect making the vendor SDK/API the de-facto API instead of the actual underlying one23:40
RST38hOf course, LG/Samsung will come up with their own crap, with all the functions renamed (hello, bada), but who cares about them?23:41
qgilhttps://store.ovi.com/ http://orange-application-shop.com/ http://au.lgapplication.com/ - enjoy!23:41
* achipa says ididntdoit in Bart Simpsonish manner23:41
StskeepsRST38h: http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/var/linux_magazin/storage/images/media/linux-magazine-eng-us/images/news-images/bada-platform/385970-1-eng-US/Bada-platform.png23:41
RST38hStskeeps: Yes it is a rewritten Symbian based on Linux with UI stolen from a few platforms23:42
RST38hStskeeps: And no, this image does not say a thing about that :)23:42
Stskeepssomeone should nominate it as the most useless architecture diagram of the year23:43
CosmoHillthat is stupid23:43
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achipaStskeeps: not enough buzzwords for that :)23:44
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RST38hStskeeps: My point is that you can easily disregard LG/Samsung, while Nokia, Dell, etc are VERY likely to go with the official set of APIs23:44
RST38hStskeeps: And the Orange thing will not be made by Orange, reducing this case to one of the above :)23:45
qgilRST38h: but what if it's Orange who sets the requirements?23:45
qgilanyway, either you have a MeeGo API or you have not23:45
bfreeany clues how or if community "ports" will be handled by Meego? sub-archs like via/amd Vs Intel, the arm variants or even ppc Vs cell.   where will an installer come from for non-vendor installed devices (or generic images for vednor installed ones)?23:46
achipawhoa, this orange store is a blast from the past, top Nokias are N73 and N95 :)23:46
slaineRST38h: Dell are also likely to ship hardware with non-opensource drivers23:47
slaineBroadcom etc.23:47
qgilI ahve no clue about these shops achipa - I just wanted to illiustrate the problem with URLs23:47
achipabfree: arch stuff is the 'easy' part, the per vendor, per device(UX) is where the funk starts23:49
qgilStskeeps: that architecture diagram is explained at http://www.bada.com/category/blog/architecture-blog/23:50
qgil"explained"23:50
timeless_mbpqgil: it's clearer than meego's architecture =b23:53
bfreeachipa: are intel and amd the same arch (x86) or different? :-p  will Meego ship an installer for amd cpu+gpu systems (and will it be the same of different from the intel installer and hence be able to share repositories/stores)23:53
qgiltimeless_mbp: specially http://dpimg.ospos.net/contents/tutorials/bada-V1.0.0b1/badaTutorial.Overview.pdf is23:53
thiago_homehas Samsung released any Bada code yet?23:54
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timeless_mbpqgil: looks like symbian23:55
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* timeless_mbp wonders if they got app portability right23:55
qgilthiago_home: "Bada code" as in source or as in binary?23:56
timeless_mbp(by that, i mean, install into arbitrary locations)23:56
thiago_homeeither23:56
qgilthere is an sdk http://developer.bada.com/apis/docs/commonpage.do?menu=MC01040000&mtb1=&mtb2=23:56
achipabfree: that's up to the vendor to decide, if someone with specific amd hw steps in, I reckon they will have to provide the support for it23:58

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