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| Cosmo[PB] | night night | 01:29 |
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| PARAG | Hi guys, do you know anybody in the room who can help me signing one symbian application .....ready to donate some money.........urgent :) ...thanks....Please PM me | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | it's a meego (maemo and moblin) channel, we're not really symbian (thank god) | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:00 |
| RST38h | moo Sts | 10:01 |
| PARAG | any channel u can suggest please ? | 10:02 |
| Stskeeps | https://www.symbiansigned.com/app/page ? :P | 10:07 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps <-- excersies applied sadism =) | 10:08 |
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| * CosmoHill wonders why he tends to end up holding his pen like a ciggy | 13:37 | |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, thats not a problem unless you actually light it | 13:37 |
| CosmoHill | the is a very good point | 13:38 |
| CosmoHill | it's taken me an hour to find out the price of some software | 13:39 |
| CosmoHill | and even then i've gone "screw it, I'll just write this down and say it works" | 13:39 |
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| CosmoHill | i don't like this assignment | 13:43 |
| CosmoHill | too much of it is based on pulling figures out of your arse | 13:43 |
| lcuk | i see you are on the microsoft site then | 13:43 |
| CosmoHill | ? | 13:44 |
| lcuk | once tried finding prices for things there and had similar run around | 13:44 |
| CosmoHill | i have to make up things for costs, how long things will take and what has to be done to make software | 13:44 |
| CosmoHill | first booking software company i went to i was like "however much you paid for your website, it was too much" | 13:45 |
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| CosmoHill | http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=1553&d=1101919373 | 15:02 |
| CosmoHill | lol | 15:02 |
| CosmoHill | my old desktop | 15:02 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, i had something similar | 15:07 |
| CosmoHill | the first PC that was bought for me as my birthday present | 15:08 |
| CosmoHill | i only wanted speakers :o | 15:08 |
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| CosmoHill | :D | 15:25 |
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| andres | CosmoHill: that looks very dangerous for your neck if youre sitting before it for a longer time | 15:27 |
| * CosmoHill watches a joke fly over his head | 15:28 | |
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| MiXu- | I can't think of a worse desk setup, ergonomics wise :) | 15:53 |
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| CosmoHill | MiXu-: it was many moons ago | 15:58 |
| MiXu- | Yeah, I figured :) | 15:59 |
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| CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/audio-work.jpg | 15:59 |
| CosmoHill | there's a newish pic | 15:59 |
| MiXu- | I had a similar setup at one point. My head refused to turn right after a while, so I changed it :D | 16:00 |
| CosmoHill | i've had that issue | 16:00 |
| CosmoHill | I started moving up and down the desk on my chair | 16:00 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, i find having a pair of monitors above each other makes sense | 16:05 |
| lcuk | ive got my laptop and then a big screen above it | 16:05 |
| lcuk | works better for me than side to side | 16:05 |
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| CosmoHill | on windows you can press win + p to change monitor settings like you would on a laptop | 16:16 |
| CosmoHill | so I use that to enable and disable the 2nd monitor on my desktop | 16:16 |
| CosmoHill | cos i hate it when i open a problem and then have to turn the 2nd montior on to drag it over | 16:16 |
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| th0br0 | haha, CosmoHill, i have a similar setup although the second monitor is no umm 20" dell one but just some 17" connected to a dell desktop ;) | 17:06 |
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| th0br0 | Stskeeps: i'm just writing some stuff at the same time, so my answered might be slightly delayed :) | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | so, i think first goal should be to get the proposal into a form acceptable similar to what quim described | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | and to get it tabled for not the first but the next TSG meeting | 18:10 |
| th0br0 | i think i haven't read that mail yet, let me check | 18:11 |
| CosmoHill | i swear people continue conversations as if there wasn't a huge gap in it | 18:11 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: Re: [Meego-community] First TSG meeting this Friday @ 20h UTC , Quim Gil, 'We have included in the agenda the working group proposals that have a' | 18:12 |
| th0br0 | ok lemme check | 18:12 |
| th0br0 | -dev ? | 18:12 |
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| Stskeeps | community | 18:13 |
| th0br0 | ah yeah found it | 18:14 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, sure they do | 18:15 |
| Stskeeps | how i personally see the repository working group is a orthogonal working group which helps define policy, aid packaging, etc | 18:15 |
| CosmoHill | yay, i wasn't ignored | 18:15 |
| th0br0 | mh ok. | 18:16 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: yep me too. | 18:16 |
| th0br0 | also administration of the community repo imho | 18:16 |
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| Stskeeps | yeah | 18:16 |
| th0br0 | and as already listed in that one other meeting log with the preliminary roles stuff, taking care of some OBS aspects. | 18:16 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 18:16 |
| th0br0 | but yep, we are not immediately necessary for MeeGo to get started. | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | hence the second meeting | 18:17 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: can you please lodge a formal complaint for me? | 18:17 |
| timeless_mbp | friday is a totally unfair day for meetings | 18:17 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday | 18:18 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: it was moved to wednesday | 18:18 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: lol | 18:18 |
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| th0br0 | mh, my 2 ntfs partitions are seriously fried ... damn it :D | 18:22 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: so, maybe for the agenda tonight: 1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal | 18:22 |
| th0br0 | don't forget 0) introduction to the current build system etc by anaZ should he manage to be around tonite | 18:23 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 18:23 |
| Stskeeps | he has written the existing packaging guidelines as well, so that'd be worthwhile | 18:23 |
| th0br0 | yep. | 18:23 |
| th0br0 | but yeah, i think that's what we should be aiming at. | 18:23 |
| Stskeeps | the goal is basically to have a packaging policy that benefits instead of cripples :P | 18:23 |
| th0br0 | :P | 18:23 |
| Stskeeps | or something | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | well, i think that any change in the packaging policy will be difficult to push through ;) | 18:24 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: tonight? | 18:24 |
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| * timeless_mbp gets confused about days | 18:24 | |
| th0br0 | heffer: btw, nice to see you around here, too ;) | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: yep | 18:24 |
| CosmoHill | hmm, wtf happened there | 18:24 |
| timeless_mbp | what time? | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | CosmoHill: you ping timed out | 18:24 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: 20:00 UTC | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: 20:00 TUC | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | *UTC | 18:24 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group | 18:24 |
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| CosmoHill | th0br0: but only on this server | 18:24 |
| th0br0 | CosmoHill: happens from time to time | 18:24 |
| CosmoHill | another server almost timed out and the 3rd on unaffected | 18:25 |
| heffer | th0br0, :D | 18:25 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: can you convert that to localtime for me? :) | 18:25 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: 10pm hel-time | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | timeless_mbp: what localtime? | 18:25 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | ^^ | 18:25 |
| timeless_mbp | th0br0: mine ;-) | 18:25 |
| th0br0 | forgot that you're in helsinki | 18:25 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'll be in stockholm this friday | 18:26 |
| th0br0 | ah cool. | 18:26 |
| timeless_mbp | but people know i'm generally in hel | 18:26 |
| timeless_mbp | btw, if people know people in stockholm, or happen to be there, please lemme know before i go | 18:26 |
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| th0br0 | but that wepad thingy sounds awesome ;) | 18:27 |
| th0br0 | s/sounds/sounds\/looks/ | 18:27 |
| th0br0 | s/sounds/sounds\/looks/g | 18:27 |
| th0br0 | mh, no infobot huh? | 18:28 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps | 18:28 | |
| CosmoHill | :o | 18:28 |
| CosmoHill | everyone, hide! | 18:28 |
| th0br0 | why so? | 18:28 |
| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba | Repository WG meeting tonight 20:00 UTC in -" | 18:28 | |
| *** Stskeeps changes topic to "MeeGo - http://meego.com - FAQ: http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work | Blog post, Towards Day One: http://tinyurl.com/ylmt7fu | First TSG meeting 24/3/2010 20:00 UTC, http://tinyurl.com/yd86qba | Repository WG meeting tonight 20:00 UTC" | 18:28 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps | 18:29 | |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: will you want to moderate? you seem to have a good overview as well | 18:31 |
| th0br0 | can do. | 18:31 |
| Stskeeps | oki | 18:31 |
| Stskeeps | brb | 18:31 |
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| paxcoder | if I dev for Maemo now, should it work on MeeGo when it comes out? I hate the idea of accepting the maemo sdk EULA though, will MeeGo be completely free? Should I use QT or clutter instead? I'd like to start working right about now. | 18:32 |
| th0br0 | paxcoder: Qt is the way to go | 18:32 |
| thiago_home | MeeGo is completely free | 18:33 |
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| paxcoder | yes! | 18:34 |
| paxcoder | any tips on how to dev for mobiles accept "use big buttons"? | 18:35 |
| paxcoder | i'd like to create a mockup actually | 18:36 |
| th0br0 | ? | 18:37 |
| paxcoder | i need to construct an interface to present the basic idea, and so if some people approve, i make it. | 18:37 |
| thiago_home | not following you... | 18:38 |
| paxcoder | i'd like to follow some (de-facto) standards though. | 18:38 |
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| thiago_home | still not following you... | 18:38 |
| paxcoder | you put the buttons, and chose the colors, and then make a screenshot, and say pushing this will do that. and then they say: cool, do that. | 18:38 |
| Stskeeps | thiago_home: meego hw adaptation being completely free is a bit doubtful, but yes, we can work towards it | 18:39 |
| thiago_home | yes | 18:39 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: maemo troll :-P | 18:39 |
| paxcoder | i see how you "worked towards it" so far | 18:40 |
| Stskeeps | paxcoder: i did Mer for a year, bit evil to call me a troll over that | 18:40 |
| thiago_home | if the HW maker doesn't provide open drivers, you have two choices: | 18:40 |
| thiago_home | don't use the hardware, or use the closed driver | 18:40 |
| * Stskeeps does know his stuff and why meego is a good thing in terms of open systems. | 18:40 | |
| thiago_home | (while you develop the open one, if you can) | 18:41 |
| paxcoder | actually, i wouldn't mind having multiple repos (like Debian) so if people want to use proprietary software, fine - won't get us anywhere but fine. I'd use the crappier and more free version though. | 18:42 |
| thiago_home | I think it will get us somewhere | 18:42 |
| thiago_home | like on hardware | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | and you'd be welcome to, but in some cases, it wouldn't be feasible to avoid the blobs in short term :) | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | battery management being one | 18:42 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: well now you know why i was rude | 18:42 |
| thiago_home | GL drivers being another | 18:42 |
| paxcoder | or perhaps maemo should go that way, and we another | 18:43 |
| paxcoder | and perhaps choose the phones accordingly. | 18:43 |
| Stskeeps | paxcoder: meego's going the sane direction - fully open core system, hardware adaptation may be closed (buy the phones it's not closed on) and differentiation apps | 18:43 |
| thiago_home | "we" ? | 18:43 |
| paxcoder | thiago_home: MeeGo | 18:44 |
| thiago_home | there is no more Maemo | 18:44 |
| thiago_home | it's all MeeGo | 18:44 |
| thiago_home | anyway, MeeGo will have a fully open core | 18:44 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: wth is "fully opencore" -huh? | 18:44 |
| thiago_home | with extra repos for what can't be open, and you use it if you want | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | paxcoder: the thing all devices share | 18:44 |
| thiago_home | if you don't want to, it's your choice | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | base system, UI toolki, etc | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | t | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | what developers build towards | 18:45 |
| paxcoder | thiago_home: no, ppl should be able to chose whether they want the blobs at all or not. | 18:45 |
| thiago_home | plus differentiation overlays. | 18:45 |
| thiago_home | they are | 18:45 |
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| thiago_home | don't use the blobs if you don't want to | 18:45 |
| paxcoder | well i intend not to. just don't put it in everybody's soup | 18:45 |
| Stskeeps | base system probably won't rely on any closed source stuff | 18:46 |
| paxcoder | it's harder to pluck out. | 18:46 |
| Stskeeps | hardware adaptation is something different | 18:46 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: you mean like vendors? | 18:46 |
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| Stskeeps | ok, so, we all agree that meego (the APIs, the qt stuff, the base system and kernel) is open source | 18:46 |
| Stskeeps | to run on a system you mix it with a hardware adaptation which may be more or less open source | 18:47 |
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| paxcoder | who is "you" in that sentence? | 18:47 |
| thiago_home | the core MeeGo will be fully open. You can get all of it. | 18:47 |
| thiago_home | now, if that will run on the hardware you have on your hands, that's your problem. | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | paxcoder: joe b coder | 18:48 |
| paxcoder | ah, he can do what he wants. | 18:48 |
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| paxcoder | as long as i can change the preinstalled system for the free version, i'm happy | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | at possible loss of functionality of the hardware, probably | 18:49 |
| paxcoder | yeah, that's my decision. | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | then you should be fine, i think | 18:50 |
| Stskeeps | provided the device is open* (as in able to replace kernel and rootfs) | 18:50 |
| thiago_home | wait | 18:50 |
| thiago_home | you're now talking about hardware | 18:50 |
| thiago_home | you can get the MeeGo repositories and all the software | 18:50 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: right. it's version 2 of the gpl. too bad but unavoidable (since it's linux) | 18:50 |
| thiago_home | hardware, however, doesn't come over the Internet | 18:51 |
| thiago_home | if you want to replace, make sure you buy from a company that allows replacing. | 18:51 |
| paxcoder | Stskeeps: N900's system can be changed, right? | 18:51 |
| thiago_home | yes | 18:51 |
| thiago_home | it can be | 18:52 |
| paxcoder | it's a deal then ;-) | 18:52 |
| thiago_home | even though the part of it that allows the replacing (the bootloader) isn't open | 18:52 |
| * VDVsx facepalms at -dev | 18:52 | |
| paxcoder | thiago_home: is bootloader hardcoded firmwhare or what? | 18:53 |
| paxcoder | *ware | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | no, just not open. it allows usb flashing and loads unsigned zinages from a flash area | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | zimages | 18:54 |
| paxcoder | strange | 18:55 |
| th0br0 | paxcoder: it's not open because it contains some nokia-private stuff i guess | 18:55 |
| th0br0 | it's like the sbl you got for all those HTC devices... | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | paxcoder: but all things considered, loading a zimage is good enough for me | 18:56 |
| paxcoder | wait, i don't get it | 18:57 |
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| Stskeeps | mm? | 18:57 |
| paxcoder | so you can't flash the loader, you can just add a new zimage? | 18:58 |
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| Stskeeps | you can flash a new loader if you want but you will shoot yourself in the foot doing it, as your device most likely will be fully bricked | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | the closed loader ensures you can always reflash new zimage, rootfs | 18:59 |
| paxcoder | is this because i don't know how a loader should look like, or because there's some kind of DRM implemented that prevents me to modify it? | 19:00 |
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| paxcoder | *from modifying | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | about the latter, i don't actually know. first one is likely | 19:00 |
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| Stskeeps | noone actually tried since noone likes a dead device | 19:01 |
| Stskeeps | and we didnt have a need to replace it | 19:01 |
| paxcoder | ah, it'll happen. | 19:01 |
| paxcoder | it's prolly because they don't know how to write a replacement | 19:02 |
| Stskeeps | i'm happy as i can experiment quite deepily with my device and always restore it | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | and zimage loading is fine for me | 19:03 |
| paxcoder | well, i don't exactly run Coreboot on my machine either. but still... | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | you will need some blobs to have a basic os on n900, sadly | 19:05 |
| paxcoder | how come? | 19:06 |
| paxcoder | *which ones? | 19:06 |
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| paxcoder | see you around | 19:14 |
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| qgil | Stskeeps: about working groups in general, I would recomend you to hold on a bit on the formal side (getting a working group approved) | 19:41 |
| qgil | for two reasons | 19:41 |
| qgil | one because the priority will go for the working groups covering the different UXs / industries: handset, netbook, etc | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: yeah, we are in preperation phases | 19:42 |
| qgil | two because the definition of a "working group" is going to be hardened, and maybe several of the current proposals won't end up in the form of a working group | 19:42 |
| qgil | but something more specialized reporting to a working group | 19:42 |
| qgil | the TSG needs to have a sane amount of direct intefaces to deal with | 19:42 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: would be good to have the definition of such more public | 19:42 |
| Stskeeps | right now we are informally gathering, which is first start | 19:43 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: sure, it's not that a detailed definition exists already and is not public :) | 19:43 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: specially in the case of the deb working group getting organized without waiting for blessing is anyway a good idea | 19:43 |
| qgil | something we all need to address here is how to get turbo speed in two areas that many times fight each other: industry / community | 19:44 |
| qgil | we can find many examples of industry success and community success, but both at the same time is damn hard | 19:45 |
| qgil | this is why the TSG will concentrate first to guarantee industry success, but it is obvious that we won't go too far either if this implies a failure (or crickets, as you put it) in community terms | 19:46 |
| qgil | on the other hand, if we concentrate on all the community needs this is going to be lovely and everything, but without industrial success the companies behind will pull the plug, if the own cutting edge developers haven't done it before | 19:46 |
| qgil | all these are thoughts around the deb packaging working group proposal: | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | (we are talking about the repository working group one, not deb one right?) | 19:47 |
| qgil | not required for industrial success (being consistent with one and only one packaging system is more effective than spreading efforts) | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:48 |
| qgil | but if there is a clear community push for that it is good that this energy is accommodated around the projects, rather than loosing it | 19:48 |
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| Stskeeps | i see repository wg as bringing together the people who are into packaging policy and serve as a orthogonal function in the project to help with packaging, qa process, documentation, etc | 19:49 |
| qgil | the 'repository working group' probably should end up not as a group reporting directly to the TSG but as a team within the program office, release team or whatever ends up being the name, don't you think? | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | probably yes | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | either way, we don't have those structures (yet), so for most things, we're a group trying to find itself | 19:50 |
| qgil | I mean, there are many topics that are key, but they need to be organized within the right context | 19:50 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: sure, I know perfectly well what you mean :) | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:51 |
| Stskeeps | i think this is also what we are going to talk about tonight | 19:51 |
| qgil | I'll try to be there | 19:51 |
| Stskeeps | it may be a WG beneath a WG, but either way, we need to discuss what we are contributing with | 19:51 |
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| qgil | yes, like in many topics there is no need to wait for official appointments in order to start discussing and creating critical mass | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | of course - hence us starting work and not asking it to be tabled at first TSG meeting :) | 19:52 |
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| th0br0 | qgil: there is red hat / fedora for industry / community success ;) | 19:54 |
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| qgil | th0br0: yes, what do you think are the keys of their success? | 19:55 |
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| qgil | (if we can apply them beyond the server IT to the mobile industry all the better) | 19:55 |
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| th0br0 | mmh. | 19:56 |
| th0br0 | that is a good question... | 19:56 |
| th0br0 | i think one reason for the community success is the governance model | 19:56 |
| th0br0 | let me see whether i can find a vid of the speech max gave at fosdem 2k10 | 19:57 |
| qgil | th0br0: I see at least two extra spins MeeGo should do even if achieving all what RedHat / Fedore achieved | 19:57 |
| qgil | one is producing something compelling to end users at large | 19:57 |
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| qgil | I mean, RedHat / Fedora have one part of business for servers, and then another part for workstations, but none of them are really products for regular consumers | 19:58 |
| th0br0 | Fedora is getting there though. | 19:58 |
| * RST38h speaking to nobody in particular, suggests concentrating on concrete things rather than community governance problems | 19:58 | |
| th0br0 | http://video.fosdem.org/2010/devrooms/distributions/Fedora_Governance.ogv << that's the video just for reference | 19:59 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: true | 19:59 |
| Terje1 | RST38h, what do you suggest as the first concrete things? | 19:59 |
| RST38h | (making Maemo community services like Extras work properly may be a nice first step =)) | 19:59 |
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| qgil | another extra problem is that RedHat / Fedora grew on top of the Intel/PC era of commoditization, while we have to deal with plenty of innovation and radical changes in the mobile field | 19:59 |
| th0br0 | true. | 19:59 |
| th0br0 | but yeah... mmh. | 19:59 |
| RST38h | (making Maemo firmware updates work like they do with any NORMAL Linux may be a good second step) | 19:59 |
| Terje1 | RST38h, I think you're in the wrong channel, then. :-) | 19:59 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: i'm assuming the general structures of the project will be presented wednesday? | 20:00 |
| RST38h | Terje: Oh, I am sure Meego will hit exactly the same set of issues. So, resolving them in the existing system may well be a good initial step | 20:00 |
| qgil | RST38h: I keep insisting that "normal" Linux is "x86 Linux" since the ARM camp is anything but "normal" these years ;) | 20:00 |
| th0br0 | qgil: i think that sth like LTS releases should be used for meego. | 20:01 |
| th0br0 | don't forget about x86_64 tho, unless you count that as part of x86, too | 20:01 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: no idea, really | 20:01 |
| RST38h | Terje: But, as far as Meego is concerned, I would say talk.meego.com, base system in an open version control system, and documentation will be the top priorities now | 20:01 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: alright | 20:01 |
| RST38h | qgil: Regular updates to individual system packages have nothing to do with architecture | 20:01 |
| qgil | th0br0: yest LTS on ARM architecture is a noble goal that I hope MeeGo can offer, even if nobody I'm aware of has done such thing before | 20:01 |
| th0br0 | yup. | 20:01 |
| RST38h | qgil: (as opposed to huge updates that take months to arrive) | 20:02 |
| Terje1 | RST38h, good goals. | 20:02 |
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| th0br0 | well, it is an utmost requirement for the industry anyway | 20:02 |
| qgil | RST38h: talk is coming, there is even a link to test somewhere | 20:02 |
| RST38h | qgil: And of course, there is such a thing as prioritization. If 100+ users repeatedly scream "it is broken", any PR person will tell you what to do in a split second | 20:02 |
| qgil | RST38h: base system is also coming, that is the first code release with a documented target architecture | 20:03 |
| th0br0 | RST38h: that's what i'd say such LTS releases are for. | 20:03 |
| Terje1 | qgil, "documented target architecture?" | 20:03 |
| th0br0 | in the end, QA for these LTS releases should be a separate WG imho | 20:03 |
| RST38h | qgil: Well with those two accounted for, the remaining one is the documentation | 20:03 |
| th0br0 | unless that is taken care of by the industry/nokia/intel | 20:03 |
| qgil | RST38h: documentation also coming... probably with a bit of lag | 20:03 |
| RST38h | qgil: Something like maemo.org docs/reference page, just better organized would be cool | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: i think there'll be a release team probably | 20:04 |
| th0br0 | yeah Stskeeps | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: which would take care of those things | 20:04 |
| qgil | Terje1: well, I expect the MeeGo project to have a some point a detailed architecture diagram showing what are we aiming to put together :) | 20:04 |
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| Terje1 | qgil, ok, I thought you knew something that I didn't. :-) | 20:05 |
| th0br0 | qgil: btw, will there be community seats on the TSG? | 20:05 |
| qgil | Terje1: that is not a goal in my career ;) | 20:05 |
| qgil | th0br0: by community you mean individuals on their own? | 20:06 |
| th0br0 | elected community representatives | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | i'm actually a bit confused about community seats in this governance model.. i mean, it is not a democracy, it's a meritocracy - if you show your worth you'll be included | 20:06 |
| th0br0 | basically like the maemo board. | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | ideally we'll end up having difficulties seeing what's nokia side, intel side or people living in their parent's basements side | 20:06 |
| qgil | th0br0: I have been wondering myself what would be the role of a 'community council' maemo.org style in the MeeGo context | 20:07 |
| th0br0 | ah ok | 20:07 |
| Stskeeps | where you're evaluated of what you have done, instead of how much you've been able to be a politican getting a vote :P | 20:07 |
| qgil | I honestly believe that MeeGo requires a meritocratic direction, just like most free software projects have | 20:07 |
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| qgil | GNOME, Debian and others do have elected roles, but ... | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | if we want to have a release out, meritocracy (sadly?) is the only way to go | 20:08 |
| qgil | 1. either they are not directly involved in core decision processes | 20:08 |
| qgil | e.g. GNOME Foundation board vs GNOME release tea, | 20:08 |
| qgil | 2. or the universe of voters is quite restricted | 20:09 |
| qgil | e.g. Debian project leader | 20:09 |
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| qgil | which is a combination of meritocratic democracy :) | 20:09 |
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| Terje1 | qgil, neither of those projects are aiming ultimately to well-selling products. | 20:10 |
| qgil | th0br0: why don't you ask the Maemo Community Council candidates? I also think that any initiative must be started actually by them, since is the only "internal" reference we have | 20:10 |
| th0br0 | true | 20:10 |
| Stskeeps | i think it might be useful to see these non-nokia-non-intel initiated WG's is a way for people to start showing their work - people will gladly contribute if they're given a workshop to do it in | 20:11 |
| qgil | Terje1: agreed | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | or feel like they fit in the project somewhre | 20:11 |
| ShadowJK | those videos where nokia people were on stage with maemo council people and answering journalist questions gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. need some replacement provider of warm fuzzy in the meego age too :) | 20:11 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: that is very true. Now it looks like the TSG is a "sexy" place to be if you want to exercise power | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | (but provided the WG's work in the open, this should come automatically) | 20:11 |
| Terje1 | qgil, in fact, I can't think of any community project with such a goal. It might be that we have something unique to buld. | 20:11 |
| Terje1 | build | 20:12 |
| qgil | however, we can see from fully developed free software project that the sexy places for exercising power are somewhere else | 20:12 |
| qgil | generally closer to the code | 20:12 |
| qgil | Terje1: well, the Linux Foundation ;) | 20:12 |
| Terje1 | qgil, ah... | 20:13 |
| qgil | there is something mentioned about voting rights at http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/bylaws - but I have beeter things to read on Sunday evening ;) | 20:15 |
| th0br0 | :) | 20:15 |
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| qgil | actually it looks like there is only a corporate membership, not individual membership | 20:17 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: maybe it would be worthwhile to consider repo WG as a team - as in, similar to infrastructure maintaince(sp) - where we're a support function for all teams and work areas to help provide collaboration spaces (and the policies, software, support etc) that comes along | 20:17 |
| qgil | and I don't know if there is any democracy at all in the structure of maintainers of kernel.org | 20:17 |
| Stskeeps | where our goal isn't to wield power, but to maintain sanity and balance or something | 20:18 |
| Terje1 | Stskeeps, hmm, so that's how we nerds are supposed to maintain sanity. No wonder I haven't succeeded. | 20:18 |
| Stskeeps | Terje1: one example can be someone reviewing your repo inclusion request and giving feedback on your packaging | 20:19 |
| th0br0 | Stskeeps: don't our goals however lead us to the same role regardless of our position? | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: right | 20:19 |
| th0br0 | still, i'd say that you have this repo WG and a repo Team ;) where repo WG is the administration of the repo Team. dunno. just ... say, for each packet to get included, you have to pass a review process by another packager. | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's a support function and a research function in one | 20:20 |
| th0br0 | yep | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | one for day to day work, one for helping things in the future | 20:21 |
| th0br0 | yep. and also partly controlling the day to day work | 20:21 |
| Terje1 | There definitely would be value in good-quality packaging. | 20:24 |
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| Stskeeps | it also makes sense from a economic point of view, this is an area volunteers really can make a difference :P | 20:27 |
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| Terje1 | Stskeeps, and an area which has been traditionally been in bad shape. | 20:28 |
| Terje1 | Stskeeps, let's face it: only special kind of people find packaging interesting. | 20:29 |
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| lcuk | Terje1, so why are so many picking up pitchforks about deb/rpm | 20:30 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: those people also traditionally don't like change | 20:30 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:30 |
| Terje1 | lcuk, beats me. | 20:30 |
| lcuk | meh - installshield would be cooler (H) | 20:31 |
| SWFu64 | rpm boooo | 20:31 |
| Terje1 | Stskeeps, hmm, I really did not intend "special" in any bad way. I hope you didn't either. :-) | 20:31 |
| qgil | the deb/rpm debate reminds me the reasons why I stopped loving football or politics in my motherland: people discussed about football when in fact they were discussing ab out politics and the other way around | 20:32 |
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| Stskeeps | Terje1: i use my 'specialness' to do cool things, i'm in no way offended :) | 20:32 |
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| Terje1 | Stskeeps, did I hear evil laughter? | 20:34 |
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| Stskeeps | Terje1: hehe | 20:34 |
| qgil | RST38h: did you say forum? there is http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ meego meego looking for testers | 20:35 |
| qgil | it's a vBulleting like talk.maemo.org integrated with a drupal like meego.com for common userid | 20:35 |
| qgil | feedback about this test forum to the meego-community list please | 20:36 |
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| qgil | OpenID works well! Having CMS & forum integrated login with OpenID compliance is already more than what we could ever achieve in maemo.org.... :/ | 20:41 |
| th0br0 | qgil: we don't have the password etc though | 20:42 |
| Stskeeps | a clean slate is good for so many reasons | 20:42 |
| Stskeeps | th0br0: for forum it's meego/meego | 20:42 |
| qgil | th0br0: password etc? | 20:42 |
| th0br0 | fro drupal too :)= | 20:42 |
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| penguinbait | is Reggie involved in http://meegotalk.com/vb3/ ? | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | it's his site, afaik | 20:43 |
| th0br0 | but the meegotalk.com accs are different from meego.com right? | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | the idea is them not being, i think | 20:44 |
| th0br0 | then I'll not register yet | 20:44 |
| qgil | penguinbait: meegotalk.com is the test bed he put in place to give a try to the drupal/vBulletin integration. It's not meant to be a final site | 20:46 |
| qgil | penguinbait: once we are happy about the test then Reggie will put in place the final one in the meego.com servers, integrated with the current meego.com Drupal | 20:46 |
| th0br0 | that's cool | 20:46 |
| qgil | any content in the test site will move to another dimension not accessible to humans | 20:47 |
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| qgil | ah, there is even a fluid width version in addition to the static width version! http://meegotalk.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=6&page=2&styleid=3 | 20:54 |
| qgil | a discussion we won't have ;) | 20:54 |
| th0br0 | ^^ | 20:54 |
| * qgil already misses the Thanks button | 20:54 | |
| Terje1 | qgil, I thought you had better things to read on a Sunday evening. That's not better thing to read. | 20:55 |
| qgil | Terje1: your comment remind me that it's time for dinner even for a Mediterranean guy like me | 20:55 |
| Terje1 | qgil, no, that was five hours ago. | 20:56 |
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| qgil | actually there is something interesting that is not the talk.maemo.org Thanks button but interesting nonetheless: | 20:57 |
| qgil | "Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No" | 20:57 |
| th0br0 | i tend to dislike that | 20:57 |
| th0br0 | if ppl thank every user it really gets annoying ;) | 20:57 |
| qgil | not in talk.maemo.org | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | i'm still wondering if i'm having a record at 398 thanks for one post or not | 20:58 |
| qgil | and if that helps triaging the flesh from the noise... | 20:58 |
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| Terje1 | We Finns cannot be asked to give that much feedback. | 20:58 |
| th0br0 | why not Terje1? | 20:58 |
| qgil | Terje1: I'm actually starting to get worried about your verbosity - it must be the weekend ;) | 20:58 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, so you haven't been to Finland? | 20:59 |
| Terje1 | qgil, oops, should probably dig back into my cave. :-) | 20:59 |
| th0br0 | unfortunately not. i haven't been to any of those countries on your half-island at all so far. | 20:59 |
| Terje1 | Half-island? | 20:59 |
| th0br0 | well, yes? | 20:59 |
| Terje1 | What's a half-island? | 21:00 |
| th0br0 | oh | 21:00 |
| th0br0 | peninsula | 21:00 |
| zaheerm | it's a pity about the TSG meeting time, would have been nice to make it at least to observe...wednesday evening is he only weekday evening i can not make any week | 21:00 |
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| Terje1 | th0br0, only Finland is in the same peninsula, so no other countries. | 21:01 |
| th0br0 | so you'd say that sweden and norway are on another? | 21:01 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, yes, in Scandinavia. | 21:01 |
| th0br0 | what peninsula is finland on, then? | 21:02 |
| th0br0 | i mean, is there any geographical separation? | 21:02 |
| thiago_home | yes | 21:02 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, I'm not sure it's a peninsula at all. We're pretty well attached to the mainland. | 21:02 |
| th0br0 | mh, true. :) | 21:02 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, at least I've never heard of Finland being said to be on a peninsula, so it's a weird though. | 21:03 |
| Terje1 | thought | 21:04 |
| th0br0 | mh, no idea. | 21:04 |
| th0br0 | but yeah, you are still pretty much connected to the mainland | 21:04 |
| qgil | Island could be considered sometimes a half-island: accessible with a boat from the south but you can walk up to the North Pole (with some preparation) | 21:04 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, anyway, we're not in Scandinavia, but welcome to any of the Nordic countries anyway. :-) | 21:04 |
| qgil | Iceland | 21:04 |
| timeless_mbp | finland isn't part of scandinavia proper | 21:05 |
| th0br0 | http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%93afods%C4%ABde o.O | 21:05 |
| timeless_mbp | and scandinavia is a peninsula... | 21:05 |
| th0br0 | The Scandinavian Peninsula is a geographic region in northern Europe, consisting of Norway, Sweden and part of northern Finland. | 21:05 |
| th0br0 | ok | 21:05 |
| Terje1 | th0br0, hm. I wonder which part of Finland belongs to Scandinavia. I guess I'll have to look it up. | 21:06 |
| timeless_mbp | Terje1: lapland :) | 21:06 |
| th0br0 | ^^ | 21:06 |
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| timeless_mbp | or rather probably the section physically adjacent to sweden :) | 21:06 |
| qgil | Åland? | 21:07 |
| Terje1 | qgil, that's a stretch. | 21:08 |
| thiago_home | isn't Åland an island? | 21:08 |
| Terje1 | thiago, yes. | 21:08 |
| Terje1 | Ahvenanmaa in Finnish. Åland in Swedish. | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | ah, i actually thought aaland was swedish | 21:09 |
| * Stskeeps learns something new today | 21:09 | |
| Terje1 | Stskeeps, mentally it is. | 21:09 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: some people have to concentrate mentally more than others, though | 21:10 |
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| heffer | lbt, i'll be a bit late for the meeting as we're having an unexpectedly late dinner | 21:51 |
| lbt | heh np | 21:51 |
| lbt | in # | 21:51 |
| lbt | #meego-meeting IIRC | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, good flight? | 21:52 |
| lbt | yeah | 21:52 |
| lbt | forgot the laptop PSU though :( | 21:52 |
| th0br0 | aww lbt | 21:53 |
| th0br0 | heffer: anaZ doesn't seem to be here yet anyway | 21:53 |
| th0br0 | but in the end, if he isn't around, he isn't | 21:53 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T18:22:38 and http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-03-21T19:41:11 might be good pre-reading | 21:56 |
| lbt | are we in here or m-m? | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | m-m | 21:56 |
| clintcan | Hi guys, I'm here for the meeting. | 21:56 |
| th0br0 | good. | 21:56 |
| th0br0 | btw, Stskeeps, mind opping me in #meego-meeting? | 21:56 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: yes | 21:58 |
| lbt | I think my intentions are about scoping out this area | 21:58 |
| lbt | we say "extras" but given that meego-core is quite small | 21:58 |
| th0br0 | besides, Stskeeps / lbt 1) mission 2) converting mission into scope 3) selection of coordinators and editor of proposal are any of these topics that you want to cover? | 21:58 |
| lbt | I think we mean Universe | 21:58 |
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| lbt | th0br0: that's a broad description :) | 21:59 |
| th0br0 | those are just some points on the agenda | 21:59 |
| lbt | 2) makes a lot of sense | 21:59 |
| th0br0 | but we'll see eventually | 22:00 |
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| lbt | I guess I want to add 'Build Systems' in to it | 22:00 |
| lbt | as that is a key part | 22:00 |
| lbt | also QA | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | either way we need to figure out where we belong :) | 22:01 |
| lbt | I also have a point about "Vendor Meego" | 22:01 |
| lbt | yeah - I'm making some mental assumptions | 22:01 |
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| lbt | gah | 22:07 |
| lbt | hotels | 22:07 |
| th0br0 | ^^ lbt | 22:07 |
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| qgil | Stskeeps: are there logs available for meego-meeting? I want to see what have I missed in the current meeting | 22:17 |
| Stskeeps | qgil, yes, hang on - i'll post them for you | 22:17 |
| lbt | not much | 22:17 |
| lbt | "it's a big space" | 22:17 |
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| Stskeeps | qgil: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-2010.txt | 22:19 |
| th0br0 | qgil: i'll post a ordered & structured log later on | 22:20 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: thanks! | 22:20 |
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| lbt | hmm, we should have Meego:Community:* as a release based area too | 22:38 |
| qgil | what is "glob"? | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | i think it means "dump everything related to a release into one repository" | 22:38 |
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| qgil | I see | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | including all community apps, base system, etc | 22:39 |
| achipa | still, I have doubts how the QA is supposed to work across devices... what is acceptable on one might not be on the other | 22:40 |
| achipa | also, the extras size problem is not due simply to the number of packages, but our rules of what goes in packages... it could be 1/4-1/5 the size, easy | 22:41 |
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| qgil | I wonder if we have one repo for all UXs or one repo for each UX... and how useble are the apps targeting one UX to another one | 22:42 |
| lcuk | what happens when apps have multi UX QML uber ui? | 22:43 |
| qgil | lcuk: ? | 22:43 |
| lcuk | well i submit open source app to the nokia repository | 22:43 |
| qgil | If QML is supported in MeeGo, then it¡s supported | 22:43 |
| lcuk | someone else makes a new qml frontend for in car system | 22:43 |
| lcuk | same app - 2 uis | 22:43 |
| lcuk | which repos is it in | 22:43 |
| qgil | 2 apps | 22:43 |
| qgil | ? | 22:44 |
| qgil | no idea :) | 22:44 |
| qgil | one app for handset UX might scale well automatically for the other UXs, but the other way aorund... | 22:45 |
| lcuk | yeah i know | 22:45 |
| lcuk | was just a ponderment | 22:45 |
| qgil | thinking out loud myself | 22:45 |
| lcuk | cos app developers usually target the place they feel comfortable and can test | 22:45 |
| achipa | the app should 'know' or 'declare' which UX-es it supports ? | 22:46 |
| achipa | otherwise you can't assume anything | 22:46 |
| lcuk | achipa, but thats the thing - a small ui can happily grow to fill a bigger space | 22:46 |
| slaine | thats what I was getting to about the mulit-platform | 22:46 |
| lcuk | so even though developer X writes an app and only submits it to one repo | 22:46 |
| lcuk | someone else might push it for a larger form factor | 22:46 |
| achipa | lcuk: cool, then it can say so :) what I'm saying is that your small UI for fingers might be run on something non-thouchscreen | 22:47 |
| achipa | touchscreen* | 22:47 |
| qgil | still, the UI can respond to clicks | 22:47 |
| lcuk | the ui will respond to clicks | 22:47 |
| lcuk | cos thats all a touchscreen does | 22:48 |
| qgil | isn't the main problem screen resolution? | 22:48 |
| lcuk | nahh, not upwards | 22:48 |
| qgil | what will be the smallest handset resolution supported and the biggest netbook? | 22:48 |
| qgil | I believe the other ones are less relevant, but no idea | 22:48 |
| lcuk | thats for the HW people to decide | 22:48 |
| achipa | upwards it more of a visual issue | 22:48 |
| achipa | it can be ugly, especially if the aspect ratio is different | 22:49 |
| qgil | achipa: but I guess the good MeeGo developer implements fluid UIs? | 22:49 |
| qgil | this is not the land of a single device anymore | 22:49 |
| lcuk | i think achipa was thinking purely bitmap/pixel based layouts | 22:50 |
| achipa | qgil: yikes ! that's what is probably the single most hated thing is Symbian right now... | 22:50 |
| qgil | even within the same UX different aspect ratios are expected | 22:50 |
| lcuk | 800*480 / 480*800 | 22:50 |
| achipa | is=in... duh | 22:50 |
| lcuk | some apps can handle that nicely, others look crap | 22:50 |
| achipa | lcuk: yeah, but that's just two | 22:50 |
| qgil | portrait mode in your in-car entertainment might be indeed dangerous ;) | 22:50 |
| lcuk | lol qgil, just wait until we have entire central panels of lcd :D | 22:51 |
| lcuk | the full column | 22:51 |
| lcuk | :D | 22:51 |
| achipa | sadly, fluid UI-s are just as good as the people implementing it | 22:52 |
| achipa | the web is the perfect example... in theory you are almost completely resolution agnostic. In theory. | 22:53 |
| lcuk | its designers that spoil that lol | 22:53 |
| lbt | th0br0: not quite what I meant - discuss l8r | 22:54 |
| lcuk | am i the only one whos reading the full stops aloud in the voice of commentor as "over" | 22:55 |
| lcuk | . | 22:55 |
| qgil | I have no idea, I just repeat what others do, like a monkey :) | 22:56 |
| lcuk | i do like the ! ? format | 22:56 |
| lcuk | minimal disruption but shows you have a point to make | 22:56 |
| slaine | we where asked to use EOF at the start of the meeting, I seem to be the only one doing that | 22:56 |
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| slaine | lcuk: yes, the talking stick | 22:56 |
| slaine | lol | 22:56 |
| * achipa wonders if we're going to end up with the conclusion that fluid UI's are not an option, but a practical requirement | 22:58 | |
| th0br0 | lbt: mhk | 22:59 |
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| lbt | I like "." | 22:59 |
| lbt | . | 22:59 |
| timeless_mbp | lbt / th0br0: dealing w/ queues and buckets is WAY TOO complicated for my tiny little mind | 22:59 |
| timeless_mbp | i just finished watching a two hour movie | 22:59 |
| th0br0 | ;) timeless_mbp | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_mbp: what'd you watch? | 22:59 |
| lbt | heh - I just landed!# | 22:59 |
| timeless_mbp | after the sunset | 23:00 |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, w3 has a very smart bot which manages queues and stuff | 23:00 |
| qgil | achipa: up to the developers? | 23:00 |
| lcuk | slaine, http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Source-Control-Shingle.aspx | 23:00 |
| timeless_mbp | but i'm not going to play w/ anything that isn't that bot | 23:00 |
| timeless_mbp | i don't want people to say "you didn't speak up at the right time" | 23:01 |
| timeless_mbp | nor do i want to hear people say "you spoke out of turn" | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | irc is a horrible medium to moderate :P | 23:01 |
| timeless_mbp | Stskeeps: as i said, w3 has an irc bot which works | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | url? | 23:01 |
| timeless_mbp | it's used by large working groups w/ realtime meetings both f2f and telco | 23:01 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html | 23:02 |
| clintcan | hi, my connection got cut off (real flakey isp), is there any log to what happened at m-m? Need to catch up. | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | its partner in crime is http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent fwiw | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | clintcan: i'll quickly update my url, sec | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and it really can deal w/ s/// expressions | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, and for kicks, zakim can place calls and mute noisy audio entries | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | iow, i'm spoiled | 23:03 |
| achipa | qgil: the question is whether policies encourage multi-device/multi-UX applications, or will it mean heavy per-device work... | 23:03 |
| clintcan | Stskeeps: ok, thanks. | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | but i'm not going to settle for anything less :) | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | clintcan: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/log.03-21-2010 | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | th0br0: i think that my discussion was probably more about libcurl | 23:03 |
| qgil | achipa: no idea, but Qt and Web Runtime put strong effort on the cross-platform aspect | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | but as a dev, i'd like to claim that i don't know or care about the difference | 23:03 |
| clintcan | Stskeeps: thanks | 23:04 |
| achipa | qgil: you can say that for companies, there is an interest for the app to work on as much devices as possible. With community apps, this is much more difficult, the original author might care little if his stuff does not work right on some Random MeeGo Product (TM) | 23:04 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, and rrsagent doesn't minute /me (actions), which means chatter doesn't have to be in another channel | 23:04 |
| qgil | achipa: sure, but if there would be clear guidelines to follow if you want to make your app multiplatform-friendly... | 23:05 |
| lcuk | pure qt would be a good start for that | 23:05 |
| qgil | achipa: even most community developers prefer to have 10x users instead of x :) | 23:05 |
| * timeless_mbp notes that qgil is reading from a marketing script (re Qt/WebRuntime) | 23:05 | |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: in my experience life is never as pink as in marketing scripts, neither as gray as in engineers' scripts :) | 23:06 |
| achipa | lcuk: pure Qt doesn't even include QML yet :) | 23:06 |
| lcuk | then its not a problem is it | 23:06 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: sure, but you just read achipa a pink line | 23:06 |
| lcuk | write your app with the framework that does the job for you now | 23:06 |
| lcuk | and worry about the future when it comes | 23:06 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: read my line again, carefully written :) | 23:07 |
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| timeless_mbp | qgil: the English was crap :) | 23:07 |
| timeless_mbp | so you'll forgive me for not just treating it as a pink marketing line | 23:07 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: I wish I could show off my best English on IRC | 23:08 |
| timeless_mbp | and if you're volunteering to fix some pink lines, i've got a bunch that need scrubbing :) | 23:08 |
| * timeless_mbp likes pink | 23:09 | |
| timeless_mbp | it's like raw meat | 23:09 |
| thiago_home | qgil: it looks like you're accomplishing it here :-) | 23:09 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: your IRC nick actually appears in pink in my pidgin #meego room :) | 23:09 |
| achipa | lcuk: sadly, that's dangerously close to 'don't code anything', as there is nothing out there that actually does the job (and is not a git build of something). | 23:10 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago_home's rows get pink here for me, you're some turquoise | 23:10 |
| thiago_home | it's all the same colour to me | 23:11 |
| lcuk | achipa, application toolkits of the qt ilk exist to create apps, if they are failing in that (which from what i can see it isnt) then another must be saught | 23:11 |
| lcuk | but meego is based on qt | 23:11 |
| lcuk | and hence, pure qt should be the baseline for a meego compliant app | 23:11 |
| lcuk | qml parsing ontop of that is just an abstraction | 23:12 |
| thiago_home | making apps is one thing | 23:12 |
| thiago_home | making _good_ apps is another | 23:12 |
| thiago_home | there's only so much the toolkit can do for you | 23:12 |
| achipa | lcuk: and sadly, pure qt is a lowest common denominator, making things quite difficult | 23:13 |
| achipa | lcuk: to link back to the problem of multiple UXes above, if we do pure qt it will be a hell of a job making a MeeGo app that 'looks' and 'feels' right | 23:14 |
| lcuk | lbt, there should be a group working to implemnt cross platform standard apis in qt | 23:15 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: n900? | 23:15 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:15 |
| lcuk | achipa, well hang on a minute | 23:15 |
| lcuk | qt is marketed to do exactly that | 23:15 |
| lcuk | code once, use anywhere | 23:15 |
| lcuk | it uses the system native widgets to maintain a natural look? | 23:15 |
| thiago_home | and where Qt is the native, just make Qt styles | 23:15 |
| lcuk | yes | 23:16 |
| thiago_home | anyway, we're investigating what happens on these brand, new UXs | 23:16 |
| thiago_home | if they are going to be so different from the desktop, maybe Qt needs to offer some more | 23:16 |
| lbt | really this was another "We need to watch this area closely" | 23:16 |
| thiago_home | we're working on it | 23:16 |
| achipa | yes, all that is nice (pink line ? :) ), but then comes DUIfunk | 23:16 |
| thiago_home | QML is one front, UI extension widgets are another | 23:16 |
| achipa | not to mention the line towards Symbian... | 23:17 |
| lcuk | but wouldnt a QML textbox devolve into a qt textbox which would devolve into a system textbox | 23:17 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: there isn't a QML textbox now | 23:17 |
| thiago_home | but if there were, yes, that's the objective | 23:17 |
| thiago_home | a system textbox is the system is not Qt | 23:17 |
| lcuk | just like basically what happens in web browser FORM INPUT elements | 23:17 |
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| thiago_home | ona Qt-based system, I'd expect it to be just another QML Rectangle with lots of child items | 23:18 |
| achipa | and then the 'but then why do we need DUIbutton....' war starts... :( | 23:18 |
| lbt | qgil: I don't know. | 23:18 |
| thiago_home | yes | 23:18 |
| lbt | does that mean if you use a vendor API you can't build on Meego BS? | 23:18 |
| lcuk | so will native qt be a second class citizen to qml? | 23:19 |
| lbt | th0br0: hah!! | 23:19 |
| thiago_home | lcuk: don't know yet | 23:19 |
| lbt | part of commercial vendor is they want to be different... | 23:19 |
| * lcuk gulps | 23:19 | |
| timeless_mbp | can't i build on gtk/clutter? :) | 23:20 |
| timeless_mbp | it's in MeeGo :) | 23:20 |
| thiago_home | standard Qt widgets will never do the same kind of animations and whiz and candy that you can do in QML | 23:20 |
| thiago_home | or Clutter, for that matter | 23:20 |
| lcuk | doesnt matter to the 99% of app config editors out there | 23:20 |
| thiago_home | so if the UX goes in that direction, the standard widgets will be "legacy" | 23:20 |
| lcuk | the eye candy in use will not be whizz bang in every single app | 23:21 |
| thiago_home | if it doesn't go that far, they'll be the first-class | 23:21 |
| qgil | lbt I don't know, but seeing how "Nokia binaries" are treated in the Maemo SDK there are probably a couple of legal tweaks to be made to provide such proprietary APIs in e.g. a Linux Foundation server, even regardless LF and MeeGo policies | 23:21 |
| slaine | There also needs to be a consistent level of eye candy | 23:21 |
| timeless_mbp | btw, i'd like to propose banning WebRuntime as a baseline for apps | 23:21 |
| lcuk | im just thinking of the company thats written their app to work now | 23:21 |
| qgil | lbt but I really don't know, this is not an area where I'm involved | 23:21 |
| thiago_home | timeless_mbp: why? | 23:21 |
| lcuk | based on the yeares of "code once deploy anywhere" | 23:21 |
| timeless_mbp | because it's incredibly unlikely that webruntime will actually be properly portable | 23:21 |
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| slaine | if a text box behaves in some whiz bang way for app1, then it should do the same for appn | 23:22 |
| lbt | qgil: yes - I want to promote consolidation, not diversification | 23:22 |
| timeless_mbp | thiago: no two web runtimes are compatible | 23:22 |
| timeless_mbp | and vendors love adding apis to them | 23:22 |
| lbt | and at this point I just want to raise awareness... :) | 23:22 |
| lcuk | timeless_mbp, similar to the location api ? | 23:22 |
| qgil | lbt but it makes sense that vendors try to do business and not only based on hardware & price points | 23:22 |
| lcuk | that had to be added to browser? | 23:22 |
| lbt | and for the community side - suggest that it factors in to designs..... | 23:22 |
| lbt | agreed | 23:22 |
| timeless_mbp | there's generally no way to determine which APIs a given 'app' built around a web runtime actually use | 23:23 |
| lbt | and we may find that an app needs to have #ifdefs for vsarious vendor APIs | 23:23 |
| timeless_mbp | which means you can't really determine portability | 23:23 |
| lbt | but ideally would be a single effort for the dev | 23:23 |
| achipa | lcuk: NOW tell me not to worry about the future :D | 23:23 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: re location api? probably | 23:23 |
| qgil | lbt otoh if the MeeGo API is good and complete then vendors need to provide APIs *very* good and *very* complete | 23:23 |
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| lbt | I do hope it will turn into a no-op as I said at the start.... but I don't want to bet the farm on that :) | 23:24 |
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| qgil | no-op? | 23:25 |
| lbt | a null operation | 23:25 |
| lbt | ie no work to handle it | 23:25 |
| lcuk | achipa, i am saddened then by this. the expectation was that qml would build ontop of standard qt - and allow embedding standard qt widgets (for performance where necessary) | 23:25 |
| lbt | because they all use the same APIs :) | 23:25 |
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| thiago_home | different canvas | 23:26 |
| thiago_home | standard Qt widgets can't fit in QML | 23:26 |
| thiago_home | horrible performance | 23:26 |
| lcuk | there isnt going to be a QML webkit widget for instance | 23:26 |
| lcuk | but you should be able to instantiate one | 23:26 |
| lcuk | within your qml definition | 23:27 |
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| qgil | Perhaps what will happen is that developer will go either the Community Way using the plain MeeGo (official & community) APIs | 23:27 |
| lcuk | or choose one of a million other widgets for doing things - the qml glue around is just like python | 23:27 |
| qgil | or either Vendor Way, focusing on determinate vendors and playing with their SDKs and app stores | 23:28 |
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| * achipa can't shake the feeling this weakens both community devs (bad UI experience and integration with vendor stuff) and commercial devs (fragmentation support hell) | 23:29 | |
| Stskeeps | achipa: on the other hand, it is impossible to standardize on everything.. | 23:29 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, vendors may move quicker than community | 23:29 |
| qgil | achipa: at the end users buy Device X | 23:29 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, its normally the other way round | 23:30 |
| lcuk | because vendors become locked to their codebase | 23:30 |
| qgil | achipa: the apps available will be defined by the Device Vendor X store + MeeGo repo | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: i'm not always sure of that.. it's a nice thought, but communities can also have tunnel vision | 23:30 |
| achipa | Stskeeps: absolutely, but that's why in the past Qt was so much fun, it technically WAS the vendor level | 23:31 |
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| lcuk | nahhh all it takes in community for a new version of something is one dev sat in his bedroom | 23:31 |
| RST38h | What vendors? We know of exactly ONE vendor right now, and it is Nokia | 23:31 |
| lcuk | for business there is normally a 3 month discussion about what to call it | 23:31 |
| Stskeeps | and orange and lg? :P | 23:31 |
| achipa | RST38h: and LG | 23:31 |
| timeless_mbp | lcuk: i think meego was named in a lot less time than that ;-) | 23:32 |
| RST38h | And LG, which is not saying much (they are completely opaque) | 23:32 |
| * lcuk giggles | 23:32 | |
| qgil | RST38h: MeeGo will have many diverse vendors, or there will be no MeeGo and this discussion will be pointless :) | 23:32 |
| timeless_mbp | poorly, but that's neither here nor there ;-) | 23:32 |
| slaine | Don't forget about the alternative spins too | 23:32 |
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| RST38h | qgil: Then the discussion should really take place WHEN there are at least a few diverse vendors. | 23:32 |
| qgil | RST38h: you mean now | 23:33 |
| lcuk | then you are playing catchup | 23:33 |
| achipa | qgil: urrrm, when you say MeeGo repo do you mean the system level stuff or the 'community' repo | 23:33 |
| RST38h | Yep | 23:33 |
| slaine | There's probably going to be a OpenSuse MeeGo spin, a Ubuntu MeeGo Remix spin, etc | 23:33 |
| timeless_mbp | what's a spin? | 23:33 |
| qgil | achipa: community repo, we are talking about "third party apps" now | 23:33 |
| slaine | Dell shipping a modified version of the later I think | 23:33 |
| RST38h | slaine: none of these are hw vendors, nor do they exist... | 23:33 |
| slaine | See last comment | 23:33 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: dell is :) | 23:33 |
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| RST38h | Is Dell shipping Meego? Is there a version of Meego right now that Dell intends to ship? | 23:34 |
| slaine | I believe Novell signed up some OEM's for their Moblin spins too | 23:34 |
| RST38h | Last time I checked, Dell has been shipping Android. | 23:34 |
| slaine | RST38h: They ship Moblin 2.1 | 23:34 |
| qgil | RST38h: LG, Orange and Nokia have announced products | 23:34 |
| qgil | this is current work | 23:34 |
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| RST38h | Ok. The Orange's product, who makes it | 23:34 |
| RST38h | , | 23:34 |
| qgil | ask Orange | 23:35 |
| RST38h | All right | 23:35 |
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| achipa | qgil: well, announced is strong word... or are you counting the Harmattan device as MeeGo ? | 23:35 |
| RST38h | BTW, Nokia has not announced a product, just an intent to produce one | 23:35 |
| RST38h | Tow others as well, right? | 23:35 |
| qgil | hey, no worries - don't discuss about the scenarios with several vendors if you think it's too early :) | 23:36 |
| achipa | (not doubting there will be a 'real' Nokia MeeGo product soon, just sticking to facts :) ) | 23:36 |
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| * RST38h thinks this should be pretty low level technical stuff | 23:36 | |
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| RST38h | You want to 1) have multiple repositories 2) have certain functionality for these (including user ratings and comments straight from HAM) and 3) have a scheme to distribute paid content through repos (real scheme, not the current hacker bait) | 23:37 |
| RST38h | All the rest (multiple vendors, etc) is high level business stuff that has no relation to any of the present people, at least outside of their NDAs, if signed | 23:38 |
| lcuk | afk | 23:38 |
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| * Stskeeps is pondering to hit the hay too, woke up at 5:30 and met with some bad compile errors that needed beating | 23:39 | |
| achipa | the multi-vendor question will be important in the sense that if not handled properly/timely, it will splinter (at the minimum) the community app section | 23:39 |
| RST38h | achipa: You can get to that when you get actually multiple vendors | 23:40 |
| RST38h | achipa: In general I doubt it will happen because the basic APIs (Qt etc) offered to these vendors are quite humane | 23:40 |
| * timeless_mbp eyes achipa | 23:40 | |
| timeless_mbp | (you triggered nick highlighting) | 23:40 |
| achipa | will be interesting to see if the different time-to-actual-device will mean something here, in effect making the vendor SDK/API the de-facto API instead of the actual underlying one | 23:40 |
| RST38h | Of course, LG/Samsung will come up with their own crap, with all the functions renamed (hello, bada), but who cares about them? | 23:41 |
| qgil | https://store.ovi.com/ http://orange-application-shop.com/ http://au.lgapplication.com/ - enjoy! | 23:41 |
| * achipa says ididntdoit in Bart Simpsonish manner | 23:41 | |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/var/linux_magazin/storage/images/media/linux-magazine-eng-us/images/news-images/bada-platform/385970-1-eng-US/Bada-platform.png | 23:41 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Yes it is a rewritten Symbian based on Linux with UI stolen from a few platforms | 23:42 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: And no, this image does not say a thing about that :) | 23:42 |
| Stskeeps | someone should nominate it as the most useless architecture diagram of the year | 23:43 |
| CosmoHill | that is stupid | 23:43 |
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| achipa | Stskeeps: not enough buzzwords for that :) | 23:44 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: My point is that you can easily disregard LG/Samsung, while Nokia, Dell, etc are VERY likely to go with the official set of APIs | 23:44 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: And the Orange thing will not be made by Orange, reducing this case to one of the above :) | 23:45 |
| qgil | RST38h: but what if it's Orange who sets the requirements? | 23:45 |
| qgil | anyway, either you have a MeeGo API or you have not | 23:45 |
| bfree | any clues how or if community "ports" will be handled by Meego? sub-archs like via/amd Vs Intel, the arm variants or even ppc Vs cell. where will an installer come from for non-vendor installed devices (or generic images for vednor installed ones)? | 23:46 |
| achipa | whoa, this orange store is a blast from the past, top Nokias are N73 and N95 :) | 23:46 |
| slaine | RST38h: Dell are also likely to ship hardware with non-opensource drivers | 23:47 |
| slaine | Broadcom etc. | 23:47 |
| qgil | I ahve no clue about these shops achipa - I just wanted to illiustrate the problem with URLs | 23:47 |
| achipa | bfree: arch stuff is the 'easy' part, the per vendor, per device(UX) is where the funk starts | 23:49 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: that architecture diagram is explained at http://www.bada.com/category/blog/architecture-blog/ | 23:50 |
| qgil | "explained" | 23:50 |
| timeless_mbp | qgil: it's clearer than meego's architecture =b | 23:53 |
| bfree | achipa: are intel and amd the same arch (x86) or different? :-p will Meego ship an installer for amd cpu+gpu systems (and will it be the same of different from the intel installer and hence be able to share repositories/stores) | 23:53 |
| qgil | timeless_mbp: specially http://dpimg.ospos.net/contents/tutorials/bada-V1.0.0b1/badaTutorial.Overview.pdf is | 23:53 |
| thiago_home | has Samsung released any Bada code yet? | 23:54 |
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| timeless_mbp | qgil: looks like symbian | 23:55 |
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| * timeless_mbp wonders if they got app portability right | 23:55 | |
| qgil | thiago_home: "Bada code" as in source or as in binary? | 23:56 |
| timeless_mbp | (by that, i mean, install into arbitrary locations) | 23:56 |
| thiago_home | either | 23:56 |
| qgil | there is an sdk http://developer.bada.com/apis/docs/commonpage.do?menu=MC01040000&mtb1=&mtb2= | 23:56 |
| achipa | bfree: that's up to the vendor to decide, if someone with specific amd hw steps in, I reckon they will have to provide the support for it | 23:58 |
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