IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Friday, 2012-11-02

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DocScrutinizer05"CSSU comes with great new kernel now. Update detected a standard config on your device and suggests to install the new kernel. If you think update got something wrong about that, or for some reason you want to keep the current kernel config, check the checkbox below"  \n "[  ] Don't touch my kernel!"  \n "DONE"00:11
DocScrutinizer05show me the user who gets scared by that, and I show you the user who better gets an iPhone or even a featurephone00:12
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merlin1991Pali: do you plan to add the dhcp option to ke-recv or should I release it as is?00:20
jon_yDocScrutinizer05: you sure cssu target audience get scared of some message?00:20
Palimerlin1991, I do not se reason00:20
Palietc/network/interfaces support dhcp00:20
keriothe what to what00:21
Paliso ip configuration is done in /etc/network/interfaces (static or dhcp)00:21
merlin1991hm true00:21
DocScrutinizer51jon_y: that's been been freemangordon's proposition, not mine00:26
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DocScrutinizer51~botsnack01:00
infobot:), DocScrutinizer5101:00
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keriowhat decides what gets exported in mass storage mode?09:12
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: http://merlin1991.at/~freemangordon/kernel-cssu-ppoll/09:19
freemangordonin case you need it for tests09:19
DocScrutinizer05thanks09:27
DocScrutinizer05later today09:27
freemangordonok, no hurry09:27
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jon_yfreemangordon: is cssu-kernel only required for cssu-thumb?10:58
keriokernel-cssu is a rebranded kernel-power11:04
jon_yso, just different uname?11:07
jon_yis it actually used anywhere else other than in cssu-thumb?11:08
kerionope11:08
jon_yso, what is the reason for the rebranding instead of pointing to kp?11:09
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keriojon_y: you shouldn't depend on things outside of your repo11:12
kerioalso, /eventually/ it should become something similar to stock11:12
jon_yok11:12
jon_yI thought it was merely stock+errata fix11:13
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freemangordonkerio: who said it should become something similar to stock?12:29
keriook fine, it could become something similar to stock12:29
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Palimerlin1991, create repo rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait on gitorious cssu13:35
Palimerlin1991, I pushed one line patch which enabling portrait mode in osso-xterm: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/osso-xterm/commit/9b7b8c022b065cb62df05ecd39a843ce9c76024913:42
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jon_yPali: would it be possible to disable it? :)13:46
Paliorientation lock13:47
jon_yok, will do that13:47
jon_yn900 is too slow for rotation anyway13:47
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freemangordonjon_y: what?13:57
freemangordonwhy too slow?13:57
jon_yfreemangordon: there is an uncomfortable lag when it rotates, screen flickering etc13:58
kerioinstall the "smooth" transitions.ini13:58
freemangordonjon_y: not here13:58
jon_ywhere/how?13:58
jon_yI really like turbo mode, except for all the red boxes13:59
freemangordonalso rotation is "slow" as it follows the parameters in /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini13:59
jon_yhow do I speed it up?14:00
freemangordonjust reduce transition duration14:00
jon_yok, will try14:00
jon_ybtw, cssu features still safe to use?14:00
freemangordonNFC, afaik it has not been updated since long ago14:01
jon_yI duration = 5014:02
jon_ythat it?14:02
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freemangordoniirc every parameter in transitions.ini has a comment on what it does, just read it14:03
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jon_ynope, still flickering after rotation14:07
jon_yshaved off 100 every "duration"14:08
freemangordonwhat does "flickering" mean in that context? screen being blanked by half os a second?14:08
freemangordon*of14:08
jon_yyeah, the screen is blacked after it rotates14:10
jon_yand then flickers back14:10
freemangordonthere is a parameter for that. for how much time to remain blank14:10
freemangordoniirc it is on the top of transition.ini14:11
freemangordonyou can tweak degree of rotation, etc.14:11
freemangordonand you better torn zaxis rotation on14:11
freemangordon*turn14:11
MrPinguwhat's turbo in transitions.ini?14:14
MrPinguHas no comment14:14
jon_yMrPingu: makes UI SUPER FAST14:15
jon_yat cost of some graphical artifact in the app menu14:15
jon_yalso, no more blurness14:15
MrPinguThanks14:20
jon_yI'd love it if it didn't draw over all the app icons in red14:21
jon_yfreemangordon: that part isn't controlled by hildon-desktop?14:21
MrPinguYou can disable blurness by making it's value 0 too14:23
MrPinguMakes it smoother too ;)14:23
jon_yI mean the red overlay14:23
jon_yI'm using blurless without colors already14:24
MrPinguwithout colors?14:24
MrPinguI even have NO blur/blackwhite at all ;)14:25
jon_yyeah, there is a color option around the same area14:25
jon_ymakes things go faster14:25
jon_yI guess they painted the icons red so it feels 3x faster :)14:25
MrPinguHmm faster than no blur or whatever effects at all?14:26
MrPinguMy menu looks exactly the same as my desktop, except without widgets14:27
jon_ymaybe it was psychological for grayscale to feel faster14:27
MrPinguMaybe, maybe not14:28
MrPingubut I still think turning off blur / grayscale + turning off menu zooming is very fast14:28
MrPinguand ofcourse half all duration values :P14:29
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merlin1991Pali: can you add an option into the osso-xterm ui to enable / disable that code?14:57
jon_yyes please, I don't want my terminal to spin around when I moved my phone at a wrong angle14:58
Palihm, do we really want to have option to enable/disable portrait mode in each application?14:59
PaliI think reason for orientation lock was to move this functionality14:59
jon_yits not working on some apps14:59
merlin1991jon_y: there's a fix coming for that15:00
jon_yyay, I was getting annoyed at trying to view my portrait pictures when the phone would "helpfully" rotate it for me15:00
merlin1991Pali: orientation lock locks the whole thing, but I can understand when somebody wants a landscape only terminal (more line width) and most things still going portrait15:00
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merlin1991I know the problem from harmattan, where the terminal launches in portrait, stuff like the output of "mount" is unreadable untill you rotate to landscape and reissue the command15:02
jon_ymerlin1991: fix will come in a form of cssu update?15:03
merlin1991jon_y: yes, though it's not goign to fix your gallery problem15:03
merlin1991that is f00bar by application design15:03
jon_yaww15:03
* merlin1991 thinks of going back to the n900 as a main phone15:05
merlin1991I currently have a setup where I use the n950 for everything network related, and the n9 for calls, sms and music, but the friggin media play sucks donkey balls15:05
luf+1 for special on/off for terminal rotation15:05
jon_yterminal should only go wiiiider15:06
jon_ystill not used to using the terminal in portrait mode15:06
lufI also see the reason when to use terminal in portrait ...15:09
merlin1991when?15:09
merlin1991:D15:09
jon_ythere is screen(1) for that15:10
merlin1991at least my use pattern is landscape only for terminal stuff :D15:10
jon_ynot sure how usable it is on a touchscreen though15:10
lufTo see some long list which isn't wide.15:10
jon_yor less(1)15:10
merlin1991bah I don't like screen15:10
merlin1991when you su into another user screen goes f0bar15:10
lufI don't remember but I faced the situation few times.15:11
jon_ywell, start screen after you su?15:11
merlin1991jon_y: screen -r (after su - someuser) --> Cannot open your terminal '/dev/pts/0' - please check15:11
jon_yno, su as that user, then screen15:12
jon_yoh wait15:12
jon_yok15:12
jon_ysu and then start the terminal with proper x cookie?15:13
merlin1991headless server I'm talking about here :D15:13
jon_yssh from a different box with a proper terminal emulator?15:13
merlin1991yep15:14
merlin1991because if I ssh in as the user under which the screen runs, it just works15:14
jon_ygotta love ssh, magic toolbox15:14
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MrPinguwithout portrait vkb, why would you even want xterm n portrait?15:18
MrPinguI know nicolai is working on it15:18
MrPingubut still15:18
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MrPinguAlso now that vkb is coming, when will portrait rtcom-messaging-ui be implemented in cssu?15:21
MrPinguwith custom layout, it is actually already working15:21
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ivgalvezhi all15:35
merlin1991moin15:35
ivgalvezI've seen recent debate abou inclusion of new kernel in CSSU15:35
merlin1991we always debate ,)15:36
ivgalvezwhile opt-out and other improvements to freedom of choice are desirable, the whole concept about not including new kernel in CSSU is useless15:36
ivgalvezas Diablo CSSU already includes new kernel15:36
ivgalvezand each Nokia PR provides new kernel as well15:36
MrPinguHi15:40
MrPinguTrue, valid argument if you ask me15:41
ivgalvezarguments might be valid for kernel patches (in a patch by patch basis) from a technical POV, but not to the whole idea of packaging a new kernel that actually fixes bugs15:43
ivgalvezand there are more bugfixes in KP than just the pselect one that should also be packaged to all users15:44
jon_yivgalvez: the problem is that it forces on what it thinks is a correct kernel15:44
jon_yI already have KP loaded via uboot, but it doesn't know that15:44
ivgalvezjon_y: sorry I don't understand what you mean15:46
jon_ywell, the cssu kernel flashed over my uboot15:46
jon_yit didn't need to do so15:46
jon_ykp already handles whatever cssu throws at it15:47
ivgalvezif there were a new PR by Nokia with a newer kernel, what would happen in your case?15:47
jon_yso the whole flashing is kind of feels like a shove15:47
MrPinguhis uboot would be overwritten15:47
ivgalvezexactly15:47
jon_yI don't even have nokia kernel installed at all15:48
jon_yit was removed by cssu15:48
jon_ywell, cssu-thumb15:48
ivgalvezis uboot part of standard Maemo distribution?15:48
ivgalvezor multiboot?15:48
ivgalveznope15:48
MrPinguNo15:48
jon_yuboot for pr1315:48
jon_yand then there is pali's uboot15:48
ivgalvezCSSU is upgrade/bugfixes for PR1.315:48
MrPinguexactly!15:49
ivgalvezand it should provide any bugfixes available to that15:49
MrPinguWell but problem is, it might break 3rd party apps15:49
ivgalvez(I will avoid the discussion around open source replacements or improved applications)15:49
MrPingusee fcam-driver issues15:49
jon_yall it needs is a "I know what I'm doing dammit" mode15:50
ivgalvezif you have uboot.... you should know what you are doing15:50
MrPingujon_y: all we need is an truly open nolo :P15:50
MrPinguThat won't happen tho :(15:50
jon_ywhats wrong with fcam?15:51
MrPinguNothing15:51
ivgalvezin the meantime, average user that shouldn't need to know about Kernel Power, uboot, multiboot etc, needs to receive bugfixes15:51
jon_yivgalvez: right, which is why the option should be given with scary sounding words15:51
jon_yskip the flash at your own risk15:52
MrPinguivgalvez, how many average users are there on CSSU?15:52
PaliI already have package which patching flashing and if you are going to flash other kernel version it show message to user15:52
jon_yyes, that would be another point15:52
Palinew kernel-power v53 will depends on that package15:52
jon_yPali: yeah, I am using your flasher15:52
ivgalvezMrPincu We should promote use of CSSU among avarage users15:52
Palimy last u-boot also depends on iy15:52
ivgalvezCSSU Stable15:52
Pali*it15:52
MrPinguivgalvez: sure!15:53
Palideb package fiasco-image-update-ask15:53
jon_yI thought I had no choice to avoid the flashing, since I saw only an "agree" button15:53
Palijon_y, so cancel it15:53
MrPinguTake for example gemote, closed source application15:53
jon_yI did not know how to cancel it15:53
MrPingudepends on qt 4.7.015:53
jon_ynow I know though15:53
Paliclick above window15:53
Palimaemo has no cancel button15:53
jon_yyes, I did that as soon as I learned it15:54
Palicancel is done by clicking out of window15:54
MrPingucssu upgraded qt to 4.7.4 and broke the app15:54
ivgalvezCSSU must try not to break 3rd party applications, but that could be unavoidable. MrPingu 's example or LinkedUp that fails miserably with newer Qt due to focus lost15:54
MrPinguIt's a bit of a dilemma because 4.7.4 fixed also alot of bugs15:55
MrPingumaintaining backward compatibility can be a pain sometimes15:55
ivgalvezif the only problem packaging newer kernel is that users with custom kernels might need to reinstall them, then that's not a real issue but an annoyance (for a few advanced users that will know how to deal with it)15:56
MrPinguTrue that!15:56
MrPinguMy concern is more that it might break 3rd party apps from the ovistore15:56
jon_yPali: what does kp53 change, and why was kp52 not in the regular update channels?15:56
Palijon_y, kp52 was not released yet15:57
ivgalvezMrPingu, that's really a concern15:57
Palithere is only pre release version15:57
ivgalveznot all this drama about flashing kernels15:57
jon_yoh I see15:57
PaliI'm waiting for dfries musb patches15:57
Paliafter that there will be time to testing and then will go to extras15:58
jon_ydfries musb?15:58
MrPinguIf you upgraded from *official* PR1.2 to PR 1.3, you also lost your Power-kernel15:58
MrPinguTotally behind you ivgalvez, in that matter15:59
Palimusb driver patches from david fries15:59
jon_ywell, with pali's ask mod, no longer :)15:59
MrPingupali, hows exams?15:59
PaliMrPingu, finished in sep :-)16:00
jon_yI held out of 1.3 for quite some time until I needed a reflash from apt problems16:00
MrPinguStill, you upgraded, you lost your kernel. So why wouldn't cssu not do that too, regarding your uboot argument16:01
jon_ybecause it was hosed anyway?16:02
MrPinguwell in that case, hose your device first, then upgrade16:02
jon_ylike I said, put a "I know what I'm doing" button, like Pali's flasher16:03
MrPinguOK, fine with that too ;)16:03
jon_ythat would have been pretty nice to know you can ignore the flash16:03
MrPinguI agree16:04
jon_ywell, you better know what you're doing if you skip the flash16:04
MrPinguas probably kp > cssu16:04
MrPinguin terms of features16:04
ivgalvezmerlin1991 I think you should take a final decision regarding this and other issues, you won't be able to keep everybody happy16:04
MrPinguI mean kp will include the same functionality as cssu16:05
MrPinguonly cssu-kernel only the necessary patches, not the OC patches and such16:05
MrPinguThis the way it should be in my eyes, not saying it is :P16:06
jon_yif cssh-kernel is basically the stock kernel+cssu feature requirements, it might actually have been useful if you already have kp16:07
jon_yfallback kernel in case your kp install is doing something undesirable16:07
jon_ycould happen with kp bugs that leak through16:08
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freemangordonthe fuck, I lost the connection to my desktop :(16:18
merlin1991hm?16:18
freemangordonI hope my PC is still alive :D16:18
freemangordonnfc, power outage maybe16:18
freemangordoni am using webirc now16:19
freemangordonusually i connect via remote desktop to my home PC16:19
freemangordonanyway, I saw there is a discussion going on again here :)16:20
merlin1991Pali: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait16:20
freemangordonPali: did you try that?16:21
MrPingufreemangordon: good eyes ^^16:23
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freemangordonjon_y: KP and the kernel to be in CSSU are (or at least should be) a totally different beasts. Not because of the paches they contain, but because of the way they are/will be maintained16:26
jon_yfreemangordon: yeah, I know what you mean16:26
jon_ycssu at least from what I read, is supposed to be more conservative16:27
MrPingufreemangordon: but we can assume that kp = cssu + power features16:27
freemangordonexactly16:27
MrPingu?16:27
freemangordonMrPingu: define "power feaurea"16:27
freemangordon*features16:28
MrPingupower features: modules for host mode, OC, 720p bridgedriver16:28
jon_ypppoe and ip routing?16:28
jon_yvpn?16:28
freemangordonis .ko file sitting in /lib/modules... , but unloaded a power feature?16:29
MrPinguI don't know16:29
MrPingubut if it isn't used, why is it included?16:29
freemangordonMrPingu: what if it is included?16:30
MrPingueating space16:31
freemangordonwe are talking about the freedom, but I don;t think stripping kernel functionality is equal to giving freedom to the users16:31
MrPinguI don't care what's included, I will probably go KP anyway16:31
MrPingubut we are also talking about that cssu-kernel is more conservative16:32
freemangordonsure16:32
MrPinguin that case: normal user doesn't need the charging driver, wlan driver, hostmode16:33
MrPinguthese people go KP anyway16:33
freemangordonbut he needs iptables to run qtmobile hotspot16:33
MrPinguYes16:33
freemangordonsee, who will evaluate what "normal user" needs and what not16:34
MrPinguThat's a bit of a problem16:34
jon_ysee the latest stock iphone16:34
freemangordonnot me, that's for sure16:34
jon_ythat is the normal user16:34
freemangordonjon_y: bullshit16:34
jon_ydoes the stock iphone has an equivalent of qtmobile?16:34
MrPingubut IMO iptables is less progressive than eg host mode and more of these bleeding-edge stuff16:34
jon_yok, I was just joking16:35
Palimerlin1991, ok16:35
Palifreemangordon, now testing16:35
MrPinguBut still who defines: "normal user" indeed16:35
freemangordonMrPingu: exactly16:35
jon_ylooking at the iphone givees you some objective goals to compare to16:35
Palifreemangordon, it show me both horizontal & vertical scrollbar16:35
jon_ythe n900 is not the iphone though16:35
MrPinguPali: rtcom-messaging-ui?16:36
jon_yyeah, selection bias sucks16:36
freemangordonPali: but you should not need to scroll horizontaly16:36
DocScrutinizer51I vote against implementing a (CSSU special) orientation lock into every app. The way to go is to make the orientation lock widget in status bar more smart and aware of the currently upfront application window, so you can edit blacklist settings for that particular app specifically16:36
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: :nod:16:36
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jon_ywell, as long as it's easy to add to the blacklist\16:37
jon_yand no need to restart hildon-desktop to take effect16:37
Palifreemangordon, jabber chat is ok16:37
freemangordonI am in a prcess of REing part of systemui, so hopefully we'll have the interface to add stuff to power menu and such more easily16:37
Palibut I need to scroll in SMS16:37
freemangordonhmm, that's strange16:38
freemangordonPali: lemme check16:38
MrPingupali: talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=95511916:39
DocScrutinizer51btw while we're at it, we should augment simple brightness widget screen-on-always function in a similar way, keeping screen on only when brightlisted app is upfront16:40
DocScrutinizer51basically identical GUI paradigm16:40
freemangordonPali: WFM, maybe I didn't send you some file, lemme check again16:41
MrPinguDocScrutinizer51: does that applet have some kind of whitelist?16:41
DocScrutinizer51not yet16:41
DocScrutinizer51it's as global as orientation lock is, right now16:42
MrPinguJust thought I was studip and didn't see that before .P16:42
DocScrutinizer51nah :)16:42
freemangordonPali: where did you put those files?16:43
PaliI relaced original16:43
freemangordon"/usr/share/rtcom-messaging-ui/html"16:43
Palihm, now I testing and for some SMS it is OK16:43
Paliand for some not16:43
freemangordondid you reboot?16:43
MrPingukillall rtcom-messaging-ui is enough16:44
MrPinguatleast afaik16:44
Palinow after killall it is OK :-)16:45
PaliI forgot about it16:45
freemangordonPALIIII16:45
freemangordon:D:D:D16:45
Paliso messaging-ui does not close window16:45
Palionly hide it16:45
Paliand when I opened old SMS (which was not shown after last boot) is was ok16:46
Paliand for some new, it not worked...16:46
freemangordonin that regard, why modest does not auto-rotate when forced rotation is disabled?16:46
Palifreemangordon, but now all avatars (also empty) are on separate line16:47
Palibefore it was in text16:47
Pali^^ this is only for SMS16:48
MrPinguPali:  talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=95511916:48
PaliMrPingu, why?16:49
MrPinguthat layout is the default with portraitsuporrt16:49
PaliI have forcerotation enabled16:49
Paliwithout it rtcom messaging ui portrait not working...16:49
MrPinguI understand16:49
MrPinguI mean, the layout of the conversations are just css if I am right16:50
MrPinguthese files + forced rotation16:50
freemangordonPali: layout might be a little bit different to stock, didn't checked16:50
freemangordonMrPingu: yes16:50
Palithen, ok16:50
freemangordonPali: all avatrs are here16:51
MrPinguThe link I send you has the default layout + portrait support so you don't have to scroll sideways16:51
freemangordonPali: please, reboot :P16:51
freemangordonMrPingu:  there is a nasty bug on TMO, if you click on the avatar to open a conversation, ui hangs16:52
freemangordons/conversation/contact/16:52
infobotfreemangordon meant: MrPingu:  there is a nasty bug on TMO, if you click on the avatar to open a contact, ui hangs16:52
MrPinguNever experienced that16:53
freemangordonok, there are several versions of css, there is at least one hat is ok, but I was not sure which one16:53
freemangordonso I sent what i use to pali, it works for sure16:54
MrPinguNP16:54
MrPingugood to see portrait vkb is almost ready too :)16:55
freemangordonyeah, kudos to nicolai16:56
MrPinguInstalled that deb as I was eager to try but it didn't work as stated in his edit :P16:58
Palideb package is here: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait17:01
MrPinguAlso for brave souls like me? :P17:03
freemangordon:D17:07
freemangordonMrPingu: did you install vkbrenederer as well?17:07
MrPinguvkbrenderer is included doesn't it?17:09
freemangordonBTW whitelisting rtcom-messaging-ui does not work as it should, at least here. Lets hope latest patches from arcean fix that17:10
freemangordonMrPingu: NFC17:10
MrPingulibhildon-im-vkbrenderer3                           3.3.20-1+0m517:11
MrPinguseems it's installed ;)17:11
MrPingufreemangordon: have whitelisted it here17:11
freemangordonMrPingu: of course it is installed :D17:12
freemangordonthis is part of PR1.x17:12
freemangordonthe question is which version?17:12
freemangordonhmm, actually it is not changed17:13
MrPinguProblem here is, it doesn't get displayed in portrait. Vkb doesn't show up at all17:14
MrPingulandscape works fine17:14
MrPingubut g2g, driving lesson17:14
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Palifreemangordon, is there whitelist for forcerotation?18:24
freemangordonyep18:24
Palido you have link?18:25
freemangordonwhat?18:25
freemangordonit is in transitions.ini18:25
freemangordonok, it is not there by default, but you can add whitelist=...18:26
freemangordonin the same way as blacklist18:26
PaliI mean if there is list of working application18:26
freemangordonaah,18:26
Paliso to add them into transitions.ini to cssu18:26
freemangordondon;t know18:27
freemangordonwe can't, until it is fixed18:27
DocScrutinizer51fsckng thumbnailerd heats up my N90018:28
DocScrutinizer51pretty sane a thing to do on battery18:28
freemangordonPali: would you help me to assess patches in KP/KCSSU?18:31
Paliwhich patches?18:34
freemangordonall of them.18:35
freemangordonit is needed to decide what will go into CSSU kernel18:35
Paliok18:35
freemangordonI'll do a page on wiki18:35
freemangordon(or will ask someone to do it :D)18:35
Palibtw, I'm waiting for musb patches from dfries18:36
freemangordonor if ou have a better idea, I am ok18:36
Paliwiki is ok18:36
freemangordonfor suspend to RAM?18:36
Paliyes18:36
Paliand rtc fixes18:37
freemangordonthats ok, but I dion't think those will have to be included in CSSU kernel. At least not in the initial version18:37
Paliok18:37
freemangordonwe'd rather taker kernel-cssu as basis, remove bqxxx patches and assess the others18:38
Paliin kernel-power there are for kp52 new patches like udf fix18:38
Paliwhich should go to cssu kernel18:39
freemangordoni did a quick look ath what remains, maybe ramzswap should be removed too. though I am not absolutely sure, as it is just one .ko more18:39
Paliudf fix - from upstream kernel which fixing mouting UDF filesystem on sd card/usb flash disk18:39
freemangordonok, if you say so. that is why we need to make the assessment18:40
freemangordonPali: is it tested enough? if at all?18:40
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Palikp52 was not released yet.. I do not know many people tested pre release18:41
freemangordonPali: hehe. wouldn;t say that's enough for CSSU18:41
PaliI know, but it is good candicate18:41
freemangordonwe have to be very careful with the kernel stuf18:41
Pali*candidate18:42
freemangordon*stuff18:42
freemangordon:D18:42
freemangordonPali: if we follow the idea of CSSU kernel to be rock stable and KP to be used for bleeding edge stuff, I would say we should keep CSSU kernel 1-2 versions behind KP version in extras18:43
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Paliok, no problem18:43
freemangordonexcluding bug fixes of course18:43
freemangordonin that regard having udf is a nice thing, but it should reach CSSU when matured enough18:44
DocScrutinizer05:nod:18:44
freemangordonthe same with bqxxx,rx_battery, etc18:44
DocScrutinizer05:nod:^218:45
freemangordonI am still not sure what to do with dsp driver18:45
DocScrutinizer05took 'us' how long - in KP versions - until I err we noticed complete fuckup of I2C kernel driver?18:46
freemangordonthere was at least one report that TI gstreamer components does not work with it. Though I'd rather take the risk and fix userland18:47
DocScrutinizer05and how long took 'doesn't boot when plugged in to fastcharger', if that's fixed at all yet?18:47
freemangordonthat way we remove TI's closed source binaries and replace them with gst-dsp18:47
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: it is fixed18:48
freemangordontook me a couple of daus :D18:48
freemangordon*days18:48
DocScrutinizer05once you noticed the issue, yes18:48
freemangordonTBH I don't see the reason to remove hostmode, I am not aware of any issues. The patch as such I mean18:49
freemangordonPali: ^^^18:49
DocScrutinizer05the patch as h-e-n/paul did it is considered rather safe as it doesn't mess with normal operation of USB18:49
freemangordonthis is what I am talking about18:50
freemangordonPali's patches will wait until KP52 enter extras. If there is extras by that time :D:D:D18:50
freemangordonPali: ok with that?18:51
freemangordonor you consider your patches sfae?18:51
freemangordon*safe18:51
Palirx51_battery is safe18:51
freemangordonyeah, thats correct. and it is .ko, so np with it18:52
DocScrutinizer05at least it *shouldn't* ;-)18:52
freemangordonyeah. but we all know what it does, so...18:53
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: btw did you test ppoll/pselect?18:53
DocScrutinizer05nah, nobody ever *knows* what a patch does. You might have educated guess18:53
Palifreemangordon, what is state of 720p playback?18:54
Paliready to extras?18:54
Palior not?18:54
DocScrutinizer05I just returned home from robotnik, now chilling pending18:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: me and pali know what rx_51battery does18:54
freemangordonPali: kernel side? or userland18:54
Paliboth18:54
DocScrutinizer05I'm talking about patches like hostmode, not about modules which a pretty defined on what they do when not loaded18:55
DocScrutinizer05s/ a / are /18:55
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: I'm talking about patches like hostmode, not about modules which are pretty defined on what they do when not loaded18:55
freemangordonPali: it is a bit complicated. combination of KP+gst-dsp(maemo5 HD patch)+harmattan codecs is rock stable AFAIK18:56
arcean"freemangordon: BTW whitelisting rtcom-messaging-ui does not work as it should, at least here. Lets hope latest patches from arcean fix that"  works here with the latest h-d :)18:56
freemangordonnot 100% sure for other combinations18:56
freemangordonarcean: great18:56
Palifreemangordon, ok18:57
freemangordonarcean: I was about to ask you, but we started another discussion18:57
DocScrutinizer05since Paul messed with the musb_hdrc and related src quite a bit, it's only an assumption he didn't introduce some small typo that might still mess up normal hostmode operation. But I guess that would've shown up meanwhile18:57
freemangordon:nod:18:57
Palifreemangordon, what about create one deb package which install all needed? (and depends on kernel-feature-..)?18:57
Paliand push it to extras?18:57
freemangordonPali: gst-dsp is a system component18:58
Palidpkg-divert18:58
freemangordonnaah, i'd rather want that in CSSU18:58
Palifor extras there is no other solution18:58
Palior CSSU18:58
freemangordonafter I make it compatible with both old and new codecs18:58
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freemangordonand will leave to someone else decision where to put harmattan DSP codec nodes18:59
Paliok19:00
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freemangordonafter all anyone can package and host those19:00
DocScrutinizer05I hope you guys keep in mind that this leete new kernel still has to be small enough to co-exist with uBoot in kernel MTD partition19:00
Palilast kp52 is still small19:00
DocScrutinizer05ok, fine then19:01
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: asking who? u-boot's maintainer for n900?19:01
freemangordon:P19:01
PaliDocScrutinizer05, but kp is loaded from eMMC, so size is not problem :-)19:01
DocScrutinizer05DAFAQ NO!19:01
freemangordonPali: the point was that it should be small enough to be embedded in u-boot19:02
DocScrutinizer05CSSU kernel is a replacement for stock kernel!19:02
Paliyes, it is still small19:02
freemangordon*enough*19:02
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: most of the added stuff is modules19:02
DocScrutinizer05:nod:19:02
freemangordonzImage is not increased much in size19:03
Palimax zImage is 183296019:03
Paliin uboot19:03
DocScrutinizer05now that's a word19:03
freemangordonwe still have some 100k free19:04
freemangordoniirc Kp is about 170x KiB19:04
DocScrutinizer05good19:04
DocScrutinizer05otherwise we're screwed19:04
freemangordonyeah. but so far there is no problem19:05
freemangordonand we can always strip stuff to .ko and load it in preinit19:05
freemangordonif needed19:05
Palibtw I compiled u-boot with thumb without eMMC support and is smaller then nolo19:05
Palianybody who will try to flash it instead nolo? :D19:06
freemangordonhehe19:06
freemangordonI have only one spare device :P19:06
DocScrutinizer05since I think CSSU-kernel installer should check and correctly detect: plain vanilla stock kernel in MTD, uBoot+stock-kernel in MTD, KP in MTD, and multiboot (I can't believe saying this), and then suggest to install the right replacement for each one of them19:06
Paliemmc support is really big, so it must be disabled :-(19:06
freemangordonhow big?19:06
freemangordonand which compiler?19:07
Paliabout 40kB19:07
freemangordon4.6.2?19:07
PaliUbuntu/Linaro 4.7.2-1ubuntu119:07
freemangordonhmm...19:07
freemangordonI see19:07
Palidefault cross compiler in ubuntu 12.1019:07
freemangordonca;t we split u-boot?19:08
freemangordon*can't19:08
Paliwe can use uboot SPL19:08
Paliuboot spl is very very small bootloader which can load u-boot19:08
Palifrom nand, mmc, ...19:08
Palibut nand support for rx51 in uboot not working19:08
freemangordonI know :P19:09
DocScrutinizer05at least one of those options, particularly >>uBoot+stock-kernel in MTD<< will imply some size restrictions on CSSU zImage19:09
Paliand uboot spl has no output (only serial console)19:09
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: so far there is no proble with zImage size19:09
freemangordon*problem19:09
DocScrutinizer05that's why I said "good"19:09
freemangordonAnd I don't think there will be, as we are not adding stuff to zImage. usually :)19:10
Palitada! now I got email that rx51 code was included into uboot :-)19:10
freemangordoncongrats19:10
DocScrutinizer05ooh, and for the chanlog: cssu kernel updater should also do a backup of current kernel, by mtd_utils19:10
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: what?19:10
freemangordonthere is a backup in repos19:11
freemangordonaah, *current*19:11
DocScrutinizer05I give a shit about repos, you have NFC what weird kernel user got installed19:11
freemangordonwhy is that?19:11
freemangordonI have a clue19:11
freemangordonyou have 4 options for the last 2 years19:11
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DocScrutinizer05it's like grub installer creating a backup of MBR19:12
freemangordonKP, BFS, stock, and KCSSU lately19:12
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: bet how much?19:12
freemangordonI don;t care if someone is still on KP 4019:12
DocScrutinizer05that I got a kernel here you never could restore when you nuke it19:12
Palithere was lehte's builds...19:12
freemangordonhow old are they?19:13
freemangordon3 years?19:13
freemangordon2.519:13
Palipr1.219:13
freemangordonmay 201019:13
freemangordoniirc19:13
DocScrutinizer05again, you got NFC about which kernel user actually got installed, all you can do is trying to detect the ones you know, but there might be mishaps19:14
PaliDocScrutinizer05, kerel backup is not possible yet19:14
DocScrutinizer05sure it is19:14
freemangordonthat is why I said we should ask those with non-stock kernel19:14
Palithere is some header and footer19:14
Pali0xFFFF will have for that support19:14
Palibut need to RE it19:15
DocScrutinizer05not on mtd-utils19:15
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: is it raw mtd device?19:15
Palibut you cant flash that dump in normal way19:15
freemangordonI doubt19:15
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: check out mtd-utils19:15
DocScrutinizer05Pali: nope, but I can flash it using mtdwrite19:16
DocScrutinizer05nandwrite actually19:16
Palibut this is not normal way19:16
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: just ask the user when you detect non-stock kernel. Let him decide whether he wants his fancy kernel or CSSU one19:16
DocScrutinizer05save with nanddump, restore with nandwrite19:16
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: nope - ALWAYS ask user19:16
Palifiasco-image-ask now asking if you are going to change kernel19:16
freemangordonok, ok19:17
DocScrutinizer05tell him what you think you detected and what you suggest and will do when he agrees19:17
Paliand you can cancel flashing19:17
DocScrutinizer05but nevertheless - make a backup19:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: nandread/write is too hackish way for CSSU stuff to make backup19:17
DocScrutinizer05ooo19:18
freemangordonleave that to user19:18
DocScrutinizer05my19:18
DocScrutinizer05god19:18
DocScrutinizer05suuuure19:18
freemangordonif someone has his custom kernel flashed, lets assume he knows what kernel is and where to find the debs if he need to restore it someday19:18
freemangordonor...19:19
DocScrutinizer05yesterday you told me users get scared by a kind question, since there's the word kernel in that question. Today you suggest users should do kernel backup by themselves rather than CSSU installed doing it for them19:19
freemangordonI was talking about "stock" kernel users19:19
freemangordonnot about those with custom kernels19:20
freemangordonwe should always ask those with kernel which is not stock19:20
DocScrutinizer05again, WTF will you do when user's kernel is detected as stock kernel by error in your cute updater?19:20
freemangordonwill flash CSSU kernel without asking :P19:21
DocScrutinizer05I will shoot you without asking, when you do that on my device19:21
DocScrutinizer05;-P19:21
Paliyou should read ham update changelog19:21
DocScrutinizer05"CSSU comes with great new kernel now. Update detected a standard config on your device and suggests to install the new kernel. If you think update got something wrong about that, or for some reason you want to keep the current kernel config, check the checkbox below"  \n "[  ] Don't touch my kernel!"  \n "DONE"19:22
Palithere will be info about it19:22
freemangordonsigh. Not all of the users are like you. There are lots of iphone users that bought n900 by mistake19:22
freemangordonnot their mistake though19:22
freemangordonremember how was n900 advertised19:22
Paliso that users does not have any custom kernel with same version string19:22
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Palias stock19:23
freemangordonexactly19:23
freemangordonand if someday CSSU gets spread, those will say "WTF. There is a virus"19:23
DocScrutinizer05I don't give a damn about it, ASK the user, TELL him what you gonna do, give him options where options are any feasible, and goddamn do a BACKUP!19:24
freemangordonwho put a "kernel" in my phone19:24
freemangordon?19:24
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: you're a poor commedian19:24
DocScrutinizer05not funny19:24
freemangordonactually i'm not, it is your sense of humor that sucks :P19:25
DocScrutinizer05maybe19:25
freemangordonanyway, really, you should think about the userbase. me too in that regard19:26
DocScrutinizer05kerio: tell them about your MTD restore success, please19:26
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I don't give a shit what hack has done someone who hangs 24/7 on #maemo and #maemo-ssu IRC19:27
Paliand where to store backup?19:28
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: then we don't have anything to talk about today19:28
Palito rootfs?19:28
Paliemmc?19:28
Palimydocs?19:28
Palisd?19:28
freemangordonmost of the n900 users are not like that19:28
freemangordonand CSSU is about them, not about kerio19:28
Palinote that only roofs can be mounted19:28
freemangordonor you or me19:28
Paliother csn be unmounted (connected usb cable...)19:28
Paliand adding files to rootfs is not good idea19:29
Palibackup of kernel in rootfs is useless19:29
Paliif new will not work, there is no (normal) way to restore it19:29
DocScrutinizer05seems freemangordon thinks CSSU is solely about *his* *notion* of a standard user, while not being able to even tell how CSSU is related to standard users or WTF a standard user is - in *his* notion which seems the only correct notion on this earth19:30
freemangordonPali: I see doc's point as not a fallback it new kernel skrew the things19:30
freemangordonbut rather if the user wants to restore his kernel later19:30
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you're still missing my point19:31
freemangordonit is my English, I can bet19:31
DocScrutinizer05Pali: sorry, my updates write happily to /opt and even MyDocs, every time19:31
PaliI think it is up to user, where how and when will backup what19:32
freemangordonMy point is that there are users who don;t give a shit what kernel is and which kernel version they are using as long as their device works. And even after that.19:33
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freemangordonyou should put those in your equation too19:33
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DocScrutinizer05so WHAT?19:33
freemangordonasking such user "do you want to flash a new fancy kernel" will scare the shit out of him19:34
DocScrutinizer05there are even more users who don't gibe a shit if the app is installed from extras or nokia repo, still we got that warning about 3rd party source and you even need to click "I accept"19:34
freemangordonbecause nokia has to do it19:35
DocScrutinizer05so do we19:35
freemangordonfo legal reasons19:35
freemangordonno19:35
freemangordonno for users of "stock" kernel19:35
freemangordoneven nokia didn't do it19:35
Paliyou should not ask this for user of stock kernel19:36
freemangordonexactly19:36
Paliwhat happen if you unpack new modules, but user decide to stop flashing?19:36
Paliyou can have unbootable phone...19:36
Palior some modules will not work, ...19:36
freemangordonPali: well, we can prevent that19:37
freemangordonif we put that warning in preinst19:37
freemangordon... of some package19:37
DocScrutinizer05meh, we're same point as yesterday. You deny benefit of informing user about the fact that a new kernel will get installed, you deny some users might want an option to stay with stock kernel, you even deny those users who might get scared according to your deep userbase study might not be able to do a backup with nanddump, and you feel happy and self confident about you *never* could fail on all that shite and might *need* a19:37
DocScrutinizer05recovery path afterwords19:37
DocScrutinizer05Pali: bullshit19:38
ivgalvezif Diablo CSSU can distribute new kernel why shouldn't Fremantle CSSU?19:38
DocScrutinizer05if your procedure allows that, then your procedure is crap19:38
freemangordonif the kernel gets screwed you don;t have any other recovery but to flash rootfs19:38
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: now you!!!19:39
DocScrutinizer05we're not even faintly discussing this19:39
ivgalvezyou are discussing ways to avoid flashing a kernel19:39
ivgalvezwhy would you need to provide that19:39
DocScrutinizer05it's about letting user know that we do, or hide it away from him and not offer him the options that are immanent in the process19:40
freemangordonNokia do it in that way, I don;t see any reason to di it better than Nokia by asking those with non-stock kernal and flashing stock replacement without asking those on stock19:40
DocScrutinizer05you're rather insane19:40
freemangordons/to di/why not do/19:40
infobotfreemangordon meant: Nokia do it in that way, I don;t see any reason why not do it better than Nokia by asking those with non-stock kernal and flashing stock replacement without asking those on stock19:40
DocScrutinizer05what's next? cssu-cherry, since Nokia also did it?19:41
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 can you provide any examle of Linux distribution that ask user about installing a new kernel?19:41
DocScrutinizer05ALL desktop updaters ask user about each package they update19:41
ivgalvezactually, what you are proposing is anew feature19:41
DocScrutinizer05even friggin apper19:41
DocScrutinizer05meh, sorry guys I'm fed up with this, right after not even getting my shoes off when coming home from daywork.19:42
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: kernel update is a new feature, informing user about the fact that kernel gets updated is the only sane thing to do, and allowing powerusers to say "pretty please nope, don't touch that stuff, I did something you stupid installer have no idea of and I prefer to deal with the issue later, manually" is not an insane scaring of dumbarses but the most normal way any software should be designed. When there's an option, there19:46
DocScrutinizer05has to be a way for user to decide on that option19:46
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: how is the kernel different from glibc, gtk, hildon-desktop, etc...19:47
DocScrutinizer05and please stop telling me we scare away N900 users by politely and kindly informing them they have a checkbox below to stop kernel update - especially when a lengthy ecxplanation follows abotu the detailed consequences19:47
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: if you don't know, I guess you will find out by a few days of pondering19:48
DocScrutinizer05or not19:48
DocScrutinizer05anyway I'm afk now19:48
freemangordonanyway, this is yet to be decided, stay tuned19:48
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DocScrutinizer05you're demonstrating an annoying disrespect for your user base19:51
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 I have just updated from Ubuntu 12.04 to 12.10 and I miss any message about a new kernel being installed19:52
ivgalvezs/miss/missed(19:52
ivgalvezs/miss/missed/19:52
infobotivgalvez meant: s/missed/missed(19:52
DocScrutinizer05yeah you missed it19:52
freemangordonubuntu? aah, you're not true Linux user :P19:52
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I have (ubuntu) on my desktop, there is no special message for the kernel19:53
ivgalvezwell in fact it was Kubuntu19:53
DocScrutinizer05it's in the list of updated packages which every user can open and scrutinize19:53
freemangordonit is treated in the same way as all of the other packages19:53
freemangordonthe same goes for -mp thing19:53
DocScrutinizer05meh19:53
freemangordonyou can open details in HAM and check what's goingto be updated19:53
Paliand we can also append changelog19:54
Palito that details info19:54
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, you know latest update in CSSU broke my busybox-power installation and I had to reinstall it manually19:54
DocScrutinizer05I'm honestly not going to continue this debate about the imaginary user getting scared by a requeter, The users I know rather klick OK on each requester without even bothering to read19:54
DocScrutinizer05and ETX19:54
ivgalvezI should have been warned19:55
freemangordongood point19:55
ivgalvez"I'll shoot whoever wiped out my busybox-power"19:55
freemangordonmerlin1991: run away :D19:56
ivgalvez:D19:56
freemangordonivgalvez has a shotgun19:56
ivgalvezlook to the quotes :D19:56
freemangordoni looked19:56
freemangordon;)19:56
freemangordonPali: so, rx51 is upstreamed in u-boot?20:00
* merlin1991 hides in the austrian woods20:01
freemangordonPali: I thing that deserves a post on TMO20:01
freemangordon*think20:01
Palifreemangordon, it was added to uboot TI branch20:03
Paliit will be merged into master in next version (maybe)20:03
Palibut u-boot bootmenu was not upstreamed yet20:03
freemangordonaah20:04
merlin1991ivgalvez: you got warned when you installed busybox-power20:04
merlin1991it's entirely your fault ;)20:04
ivgalvez:D20:04
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ivgalvezmerlin1991 I assume that no changes with the administration interface for repositories20:06
merlin1991yeah20:07
merlin1991I didn't check tbh, but nobody contacted me, so I guess it wasn't looked into20:08
merlin1991ivgalvez: I just checked, nothing20:12
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DocScrutinizer05(([2012-11-02 18:55:08] <ivgalvez> I should have been warned)) Absolutely 110% correct. Though you already got warned by a requester when you installed busybox-power. Too bad it didn't scare you away from the whole thing ;-D20:17
DocScrutinizer05you also got warned when you installed CSSU-T20:17
Lava_Croftwhat is the biggest problem with bb-power?20:19
DocScrutinizer05but nobody is going to warn you before replacing your stock kernel by something incompatible to your fcam modules, if we accept freemangordon's notion on how to kick ass of "stupid standard users". Hell, you'll not even have a chance to opt out, other than uninstalling MP20:19
MrPinguYes those fcam-drivers20:20
MrPinguthe version from extras-devel or testing are working20:20
DocScrutinizer05replace that by whatever reason you might not even dream of, for a user wanting to stay with stock kernel20:20
MrPingucan't these go into extras then?20:21
ivgalvezfcam drivers work with KP20:21
DocScrutinizer05bwahahaha20:21
MrPinguI know but not those in extras20:22
MrPinguOnly in extras-devel20:22
DocScrutinizer05FAQ #1 with KP: "my camera doesn't work anymore. What shall I do"20:22
MrPinguanswer: enable extras-devel and install fcam-drivers20:22
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: read about `man modprobe` and vermagic20:23
MrPingubut we don't want to enable extras-devel for "user" do we?20:23
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Lava_Croftim not sure if extras-devel right is actually really the same extras-devel as it used to be20:23
Lava_Croftright now*20:23
ivgalvezpromote fcam drivers then20:24
DocScrutinizer05we don't want to forcefeed a new kernel to all cssu users unconditionally, since we got the opportunity to make it optional20:24
Lava_Crofti mean, does stuff actually get promoted these days?20:24
ivgalvez"we"20:24
ivgalvez?20:24
DocScrutinizer05lemme rephrase20:25
DocScrutinizer05we - the users of CSSU - don't want to get forcefed a new kernel to all cssu users unconditionally, since we got the opportunity to make it optional20:25
Lava_Croftif the kernel is not needed by the CSSU to function, you are correct20:25
DocScrutinizer05it is not needed20:26
Lava_Croftdoes it qualify as an open-source replacement?20:26
DocScrutinizer05no20:26
MrPinguivgalvez, remember sixwheeledbeast and I started to sort out extrasf-devel?20:26
Lava_Croftsimple case make it optional then20:26
DocScrutinizer05it qualifies as a bugfix, nothing else20:26
DocScrutinizer05exactly my argument, it's *optional*20:27
Lava_Croftwasnt this 'tried' with that camera ui too?20:27
Lava_Croftforcing users to upgrade to it via cssu20:27
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Lava_Croftor is this a completely different kind of case20:27
ivgalvezMrPingu I have done a lot of review in extras-testing as well, the problem is that actually we don't control repositories20:27
DocScrutinizer05but the guys here don't even want to consider *asking* user about whether she wants to opt OUT20:27
ivgalvezadministration is in Nemeind hands20:27
Lava_Croftwell, apart from the sake of 'correctly' handling optional stuff like this, is there really a reason *not* to install KP with cssu?20:28
DocScrutinizer05Lava_Croft: nope, it's basically all the same old story as with camera-ui, just this time it's about *kernel*20:28
Lava_Crofti mean, asking if the user wants to install the kernel just because you want to be correct in asking the user is a bit, well, silly20:28
DocScrutinizer05and this time we already made it optional20:28
DocScrutinizer05by matter of dependencies20:29
Lava_Croftbut overall, stuff like this kernel and that new camera ui should be optional and have to be enabled by the user20:29
Lava_Croftvia a nice tickbox thingy, you know20:29
Lava_Croftkind of exactly as you desire20:29
freemangordonLava_Croft: this new kernel, along with this new glibc are fixing a very nasty bug20:30
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 you can insist as much as you want. Nokia kernel has bugs that are fixed in KP and those fixes must be distributed to normal users20:30
freemangordonand if bugfixing is optional for CSSU, I am speechless20:30
DocScrutinizer05but freemangordon claims it "will scare hell out of users" to get a screen telling "we have a quite huge update this time. Click 'advanced' below to configure, if you feel you need to do that"20:30
ivgalveznormal users don't care about kernels20:30
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: but KP also comes with a lot of other things20:30
Lava_Croftthat go far beyond fixing nasty bug20:30
freemangordonLava_Croft: sure, so what20:30
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: how arrogant can you get?20:31
freemangordonwhat bad does a couple of .ko modules sitting in rootfs20:31
MrPinguWhats the defenition of normal user?20:31
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: then use a kernel that only fixes those bugs?20:31
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05, looking to a mirror?20:31
MrPingubesides eating space? nothing20:31
freemangordonexactly20:31
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: i dont know how nasty the bug is tho20:31
MrPingubut since space is very precious in rootfs20:32
freemangordongoogle for ppoll/pselect arm20:32
freemangordonLava_Croft: ^^^20:32
MrPingu(silently pointing to bb-p discussion) :P20:32
DocScrutinizer05the 70% non-normal CSSU users don't count when it comes to omitting a sane way to decide on whether power users want or don't want to install that kernel? You, the evil emperor, are going to decide for all your people that they have to use that new kernel? sane, for sure20:32
freemangordonMrPingu: this is not a valid argument for me (rootfs space)20:33
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: stop that20:33
ivgalvezOK, now that you are talking about emperor, let's do a voting20:33
freemangordonI said at least 3 times that we should ask those with non-stock kernel20:33
MrPinguFreemangordon: me neither but I can imagine there are users20:34
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez, the evil emperor, commands his people to vote20:34
freemangordonhmm, where is estel?20:34
freemangordonor wait20:34
freemangordonhe has stolen doc's nick20:34
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: democracy is about protection of minorities20:35
Lava_Crofti think im not qualified to judge this bug's severity20:35
MrPinguDocScrutinizer05: democracy is the dictatorship of the majority ;)20:35
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: and those minorities, i.e the ones with custom kernel will get protected by the question"do you want CSSU kenel" flashed20:35
DocScrutinizer05nope, definitely not, unless we're on #maemo-ssu20:35
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: we are going to have a lot of fun with you during next Coucnil period :D20:35
freemangordonMrPingu: :nod:20:36
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: noipe sir, your logic is flawed20:36
freemangordonno, it is not20:36
MrPinguWell, why not make a poll in TMO, the most "users" are there20:37
Lava_Crofthello this is going nowhere, DocScrutinizer05 and freemangordon20:37
freemangordonLava_Croft: as usual :D20:37
DocScrutinizer05I could elaborate on your stereotypes of minorieties, how you pick one and ignore the other. But I know this won't help20:37
DocScrutinizer05since your argument of scared user been silly and made up just enough20:37
MrPinguYou both have different insight of what an user possibly *might* think20:38
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: in the meantime, there is an important Council meeting taking place...20:38
MrPinguKernel sounds very deep20:38
freemangordonMrPingu: and hot sounds glibc then?20:39
freemangordon*how20:39
MrPingufor me as deep as kernel20:39
DocScrutinizer05"there's an option for XY, but we better don't offer it to user by *ANY* means, since user for sure would kill himself because we scared him so much" <- rethink!!!20:39
MrPingubut for normal user not as "deep" as kernel20:39
freemangordonbecause the bug in question is fixed partially in the kernel and partially in glibc20:39
ivgalvezfremangordon, there are even more important fixes in current KP20:40
freemangordonivgalvez: I know20:40
ivgalvezsmartreflex is number 1 for me20:40
freemangordonwell, we'll not enable that20:40
freemangordonrecently a guy reported SR unstable on his device20:40
ivgalvezthat's unfortunate20:41
DocScrutinizer05that's normal20:41
freemangordonbut anyway that is irrelevant to what we discuss20:41
freemangordonwell, it could be that his device is just faulty, but still20:41
DocScrutinizer05since those messing with SR usually have a 15% clue what it's all about20:41
DocScrutinizer05at best20:41
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you're getting more arrogant that I can take20:41
DocScrutinizer05aha20:42
freemangordonjust lower you attitude a bit, ok?20:42
freemangordonI don;t think we are here to measure who's longer20:43
DocScrutinizer05I'm not the one arrogantly depriving users of the freedom of choice, by supposing they'd get scared to death by whatever nice phrased question I could come up with20:43
ivgalvezfreemangordon, you have demonstrated already to have the longer one...20:44
freemangordonhehe20:44
ivgalvezin a real meritocracy your word should be listened with respect20:44
freemangordonanyway, I got to go, GF will beat me to death if I stay here for even one more minute20:44
ivgalvezgo now!20:45
freemangordonnight, bbl20:45
DocScrutinizer05aha, respect for depriving me of any choice regarding installing that kernel, suuuure20:45
DocScrutinizer05I'm not even here, when I ponder again20:45
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