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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: do you think USB hostmode should go in CSSU kernel? | 20:45 |
|---|---|---|
| freemangordon | I am trying to evaluate patches in KP | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, definitely not | 20:47 |
| kerio | the same thing can be achieved with h-e-n | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | kerio: ORLY? | 20:47 |
| kerio | and as much as i like pali's way of doing it, if there's an optional alternative then it's not cssu material | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usb hostmode kernel patches are a really dirty hack, with all kinds of unknown not yet invetigated side effects | 20:48 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | according to merlin1991 and my take on it, cssu kernel will only include a minimalistic set of patches for fixing really known and understood bugs | 20:49 |
| freemangordon | well, what was agreed (iirc) was to go through the patches in KP and stript those that are not knon to be stable | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | *known | 20:50 |
| kerio | freemangordon: cssu is for long term support | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: it does not make sense to me to push those using iptables for example to KP | 20:51 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: my major concern against stripping too much from KP is that right after CSSU kernek upgrade, most if not all of the CSSU-T users will flash KP when they see that lots of stuff no more works | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | Effectively leaving CSSU without testing for CSSU kernel | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it does not make sense to me to have one KP with 100% of awesome new stuff, and another kernel that increases workload for maintenance by getting 30% of those new features while only 2% are needed for the purpose of fixing bugs | 20:53 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ | 20:53 |
| * kerio thought about saying something regarding apt dependencies but then stfu'd | 20:53 | |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: iirc it was agreed a kernel with only bugfixes goes to stable, KP without unstable stuff goes to -testing | 20:55 |
| freemangordon | KP lives happily as a testbed | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, if you want to maintain THREE kernels | 20:55 |
| kerio | haha | 20:55 |
| kerio | by the way, why is it kernel-cssu and not just kernel? | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc this was one of the major concerns of some council dudes that already having TWO kernels was too much of a workload for CSSU/kernel maintainers | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: What I want is irellevant. And yes, it is, but that is in effort to make everyone happy ;) | 20:58 |
| freemangordon | Not that it is possible :D | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fact is we got a KP for those who want awesome augmented functionality, and we need a conservative rock solid minimalistic kernel for those who don't care about any of that augmented functions. The latter one is for CSSU | 20:59 |
| kerio | seriously though, it should be "kernel" | 20:59 |
| Woody14619 | I don't think Council actually has an opinion on this. If anyone from Council did say there was concern, it was probably passed on from the CSSU/kernel maintainers. In the end, no one on Council (at the momenet) is a CSSU or kernel maintainer. | 21:00 |
| freemangordon | kerio: it will be | 21:00 |
| freemangordon | Woody14619: I suspect someone said that in the middle in some endlest arguing ;) | 21:00 |
| freemangordon | s/endlest/endless/ | 21:01 |
| freemangordon | ~ping | 21:01 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ | 21:01 |
| freemangordon | no bot | 21:01 |
| *** mase76 has quit IRC | 21:02 | |
| * Woody14619 nods... Just wanted to clarifiy. :) If maintainers think they can do it, there is no desire to obstruct on Council's part. We simply collect and reflect information and concerns between groups to make sure there is clarity and understanding. | 21:02 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: thanks, already noticed. Alas this time I can't do much about it | 21:02 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, you said to inform you when something is wrong with infobot :P | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: good statement :-) much appreciated as inline with what council is all about | 21:02 |
| Woody14619 | povbot is still active from the looks of it. | 21:02 |
| povbot | Woody14619: Error: "is" is not a valid command. | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: yep, appreciated | 21:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | povbot: seen infobot | 21:03 |
| povbot | DocScrutinizer05: infobot was last seen in #maemo-ssu 1 day, 1 hour, 23 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <infobot> 3: 36d 20h 47m 14s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Tue Aug 4 17:38:59 2009 | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2012-08-06 17:36:32] <DocScrutinizer05> TimRiker: aah you're already here | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 3h ago | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2.5 | 21:04 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I cannot understand why stuff which is proven to work ok and to be stable shouldn't go in CSSU? | 21:04 |
| * Woody14619 has been watching B5 again, so... if I start talking like G'Kar, just ignore me. ;) lol. | 21:04 | |
| kerio | freemangordon: 1) because it's already somewhere else | 21:04 |
| kerio | 2) because it's not in the target of CSSU - it's for long term support only, so basically just bugfixes | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who did that proof? | 21:05 |
| kerio | oh you | 21:05 |
| kerio | :) | 21:05 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: how is a patch proven to not break stuff? | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by review done by at least 3 EXPERTS, by extensive tests particularly to the topics those exparts thinks are most prone to see impact. All that done in a scientific way on defined environment, not on a random kernel that concurrently pulls in 423 other patches | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | coming from upstream and analysis done there suggesting it has low risk of impact to anything unrelated help a lot | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: While I agree your method is good for industry... In a community with dwindling resources, that's a tough sell. | 21:09 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: so, according to that, we are stuck to 2.6.28.10+Nokia patches forever. | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | We ARE INDUSTRY! This is not your playground | 21:09 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: no, we are not | 21:09 |
| freemangordon | I know what industry is, ind it is not TMO | 21:09 |
| freemangordon | *and | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU meant for ALL of the 500000 N900 users | 21:10 |
| freemangordon | or maemo.org | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: We WERE industry. Two years ago (maybe even a year ago). But the N900 has been out of production for over a year now. | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | either this is industry, or nuttin | 21:10 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: not even 5000 of them know about CSSU | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | freemangordon: to be fair, that will change soon... | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's my buzzword now: WTF do you think how we get more than those 5000 when you deny to apply industry grade QA? | 21:11 |
| freemangordon | and the reason partially lies in "industry" thinking. Noone dared to push a single harmless package informing n900 owners worldwide that CSSU exists | 21:11 |
| Woody14619 | Let me share this: As Council now has access to the Facebook pages and what not from Nokia direct, we WILL be announcing, shortly, to the world of non-CSSU users that CSSU exists. | 21:12 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: would you bet your ass Nokia's kernel is tested using the above procedure? | 21:12 |
| kerio | freemangordon: dude, just make a fork | 21:12 |
| kerio | i'd use it | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I simply didn't get around to do that | 21:12 |
| kerio | i mean, you already did | 21:12 |
| kerio | just do your things there | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (provide package to extras with a pointer to CSSU frontpage) | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not that I'd not dare | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's been suggested several times | 21:12 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: would you asnwer my question re QA? | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a question about my ass? no way | 21:13 |
| freemangordon | so, Nokia did not do it that way, why the hell should we? | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so, you use unapproved assumptions? why shoukd we? | 21:14 |
| Woody14619 | doc: For what it's worth, exactly that will be happening, in short order. Frankly, without CSSU, standard users will find the N900 aging too rapidly to keep up, and will replace it at the next available juncture (contract, service change, etc) | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: and how exactly is that changing basic operation principles and best practice for a LTS project like CSSU? | 21:16 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: mobile device is not a server system, you should know that | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm from embedded, you know that | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | Those willing to take the leap into CSSU need to know about it in order to make that choice. If we lose someone from having such a minor instability as to be missed by the dozens/hundreds using CSSU already, what makes you think we would not lose them to the N900 being out of date? | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not a silly server admin | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: sorry, still parsing your post | 21:17 |
| freemangordon | while I still keep some servers running fedora core 1, the same would not work for a mobile device. I was not questioning your expertise :) | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | A stock N900, set up against current devices, losses, hands down. N900+CSSU still has a fighting chance. | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | am I the newly appointed anti-CSSU now or what? | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | So the only way to keep N900's in use is to make sure the extended community knows about CSSU. | 21:19 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: the point is that we cannot keep it with just fixing bugs | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | I'm not arguing for every fix in the book to be in kernel.... That's a separate argument (where I agree in most part with Doc). But we need to let the world know about CSSU. | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we also can't keep it with pushing untested shit, just for the shits n giggles. Particularly not if same 'untested shit' is available for everybody by simply installing KP | 21:20 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: agree, but that is different from "stock kernel + glibc and maybe some CVE fixed" | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | Frankly, right now, almost everyone running CSSU is also running KP and friends. Because finding out about one means you find out about all the rest. You have to search for CSSU, which leads to the rest. | 21:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so? | 21:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everybody happy with clicking on Kernel-Power in HAM? | 21:22 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: maybe you should reconsider and stop think of me like I am some idiot wanting to break each and every n900 just for the sake of fun ;) | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | In that light, your argument is somewhat pointless. You've championing keeping things separate for the 3 users that will discover both and opt to only install the one that installs 500 new packages, and NOT just a new kernel... | 21:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just absolutely resistent against forcefeeding CSSU users extended functionality they neevr really opted in for, when said functionality comes at expense of missing proper QA | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Where CSSU more public, and visible to "the masses", the argument becomes more valid. | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: The same could be said about cameraui2.... and any of the other 500 packages updated by CSSU. | 21:24 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, I think you missed my point - that is what CSSU-stable is for, agree? | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are no 500 packages updated by CSSU, and nikocam been a BIG mistake already | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | If you applied the same filter to everything currently in CSSU, you'd have about 30 packages updating, at most. | 21:25 |
| * Woody14619 knows there are hundreds of updates in CSSU. I've installed it recently from a cleanly flashed device, via apt-get. It shows the package counts. | 21:25 | |
| freemangordon | a kernel in CSSU-stable, with glibc fix and BT CVE fix. And thumb errata patch. An almost full blown KP in -testing, i.e. the one without bq stuff and several more packages. | 21:26 |
| freemangordon | *tatches | 21:27 |
| Woody14619 | It may be closer to 2 or 3 hundred, but reality, it's > 3, which is the install level for KP. You and I know there's a difference. But from a general users perspective, 3 package changes vs hundreds implies one is more risky than the other. | 21:27 |
| freemangordon | damn :( | 21:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: each single one of those got discussed for stability and possible impact. And basically none of them is to kernel or core subsystems that would cause random issues in random arbitrary apps | 21:29 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: upgrading Qt was way more risky than upgrading teh kernel. | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, and I'd claim I haven't supported it | 21:30 |
| freemangordon | The point is: it was risky, it broke lots of apps, but in the end we have Qt 4.7.4 in CSSU, rock stable | 21:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | though still your possible coredump was to the app that caused it, unlike with kernel messing around | 21:31 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: that is why /dev/mtd2 is, I don;t see any difference | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | Did it? And I'll tell you, the camera app can hang the system just as hard as the kernel by tweeking the wrong paramiters. I was an early tester for the cameraui2, and know just how quick an improper setting can hang the whole device. | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: I already said to you (and 500 times before to anybody who didn't want to hear) that I HATE the idea of nikocam being CSSU core | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | still an argument along the line 2we sinned once, we can do again" | 21:33 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: but it the end it seems it IS a good idea. | 21:33 |
| freemangordon | nikocam | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what now? nikocam? I cursed it just 2 weeks ago. Or what else? | 21:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and I still curse myself for being too lazy to kick it off my daily phone | 21:34 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: what you like and you is usually not what others like and use | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it clearly fsckd me when I needed to use it | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | Reality is, in the end, anything we want to see change that's closed is going to require a similar effort. And some of it will have to change in order to keep working the world where things change... | 21:35 |
| freemangordon | so you hating nikocam makes no argument | 21:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: please grok the concept of opt-in | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which absolutely applies to nikocam for example | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ZERO need to deploy it as core CSSU part | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | CamUI2 has been a god-send for me. The standard cam locked and missed things far more often then cam2 has. | 21:36 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I don;t remember SSU from Nokia asking me if I like what it is going to install | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MEH | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | doc: I know the concept of opt-in. CSSU IS OPT-IN. This isn't being force-pushed... And nobody is (seriously) pushing for that. | 21:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we're spinning in same old boring circles again | 21:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU is not the better maemo5, it is the fucking old maemo5 LTS | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | Well, when you keep using the same strawman arguments (opt-in!), and they get shot down the same way.. yes, it gets circular. ;) | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so it's NOT opt-in | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, it is... | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | Right now most of the N900 in the world are NOT using CSSU. | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's mandatory for anybody wanting to keep his N900 alive, and all those users need a choice e.g. about nikocam | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: again about to redefine CSSU target? | 21:38 |
| Woody14619 | Because to do so, now and in the future, one must find it and install it, and agree to the terms. | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MEH | 21:38 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 gone | 21:38 | |
| Woody14619 | There are several N810 still not using CSSU. | 21:38 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: would you point me to that "CSSU manifest", i.e. where is it written? | 21:38 |
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| Woody14619 | One last bit... (despite the immature running away)... CSSU users DO have a choice about such things. There are ways to down grade individual packages. Including "nikocam" and kernel. This isn't about limiting choice, it's about what a default setup is going to be. | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | In the case of packages, I agree, that should be minimal. But in the case of the kernel, that really should be wrapped with as much optional expansion as can be done safely. The disgreement over what's safe is fine. But whole-sale dismissal seems like resisting for the sake of resisting. | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | (And yes, this is all my personal opinion.... not that of Council.) | 21:44 |
| freemangordon | :D | 21:44 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | With that, I'm back to my day job. :) | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | THE FUCK there's KP for that! | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ETX | 21:46 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: no, KP is to test new stuff before including what is stable in CSSU | 21:46 |
| freemangordon | (at least that is what I think it should be) | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | uhuh, so that's your stance regarding freedom of choice? | 21:47 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: you have the choice to not use whatever new functionality is included | 21:48 |
| freemangordon | .ko sitting in /lib/modules does not limit your freedom | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly could replace each single of my posts here with (probably better worded) quotes of what I said last 6 weeks | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I'm definitely out | 21:49 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: the "manifest" in question: The Community Seamless Software Update (CSSU) is being developed by the Maemo community as a continuation of, and expansion on, Nokia's update support. It aims to deliver fixes which would be difficult to deliver through Extras (like core Maemo packages). It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories. | 21:51 |
| merlin1991 | which could be applied to keep kp out of cssu | 21:51 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: " a continuation of, and expansion on, Nokia's update support" | 21:51 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: it's a double edged swort, you also have "It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories." | 21:53 |
| merlin1991 | s/swort/sword/ | 21:53 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: I think both of us can draw the line between what is sane to be put in extras and what not | 21:54 |
| freemangordon | extras is not the place for kernel replacement, agree? | 21:54 |
| merlin1991 | tbh I personally would prefer to have a minimalistic stock kernel + patches in stable, and a stripped kp in -testing, but that just creates even more work | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I suggested like 19 times now that somebody creates a generic 'backup' that includes all the 'apps' that the author recommends, so any user could 'install' that backup to get all the awesomness | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rather than shipping all that as dependencies of CSSU MP | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since that's not what CSSU been made for | 21:57 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: " is being developed by the Maemo community as a continuation of, and expansion on, Nokia's update support." | 21:58 |
| freemangordon | Nokia update support was done via mp- stuff | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and any cssu-t kernel with features exceeding those we want to see in cssu-s obviously has zero chance to ever make it there (to S) | 21:58 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: and why? | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | logic, watson. Mere logic in one sentence | 21:59 |
| freemangordon | will you answer me: how exactly .ko sitting in lib/modules harms you as user of CSSU-stable? | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can post it again, so you can reread | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and any cssu-t kernel with features exceeding those we want to see in cssu-s obviously has zero chance to ever make it there (to S) | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since cssu-t is testing for cssu-s | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's NOT experimental, or special-extras | 22:00 |
| freemangordon | of course it is not | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi merlin1991, and cya | 22:01 |
| freemangordon | well, you know what, I am getting tired of that. On the other hand I don;t have enough free time, neither I have a will to make forks. | 22:02 |
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| freemangordon | So I will rethink whether I still want to contribute to that. Will be back when I have something new to say. | 22:05 |
| freemangordon | Night | 22:05 |
| kerio | freemangordon: you already have a fork! | 22:10 |
| kerio | rename it from cssu-thumb to cssu-power and you're set | 22:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | (([2012-08-06 20:48:50] <freemangordon> .ko sitting in /lib/modules does not limit your freedom)) bq27200.ko was a first example why we don't want an arbitrary collection of untested *.ko sitting in /lib/modules of CSSU kernel. Of course you can crowd the /lib/modules with all you like as long as you blacklist it, and as long as core kernel code isn't affected, the possible risk is limited to filling filesystem with all that stuff. | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | But why would we want to do that? | 23:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: could we try to approach the cssu kernel definition from a conservative direction, enumerating the patches we need or like to go in, rtaher than those in KP we need to exclude? I start with pselect() and probably that age old mcc driver patch intel eventually published | 23:24 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: the problem is we need a kernel dev who is willing todo that, I can't and pali/freemangordon are not interested when it isn't at least a bit geared towards kp, so unless you feel like hacking and supporting a kernel or have some hidden ressources we'll have to compromise here | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I was just about to continue with what we might include, but when that's the deal then yes I will build and maintain a kernel for CSSU that has *only* pselect() patch | 23:27 |
| merlin1991 | and any other security / bugfix patch that comes along in the future? | 23:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since I don't see pali/fmg review all those 887 basically untested patches that KP comes with | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see bq27200.ko desaster | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and we're about to do all the same again, just this time for CSSU | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | based on some personal preferences of two devels who think a separate optional KP isn't a bearable alternative to forcefeeding stuff to CSSU users | 23:30 |
| merlin1991 | the rant doesn't answer my question though ;) | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maintenance effort of minimalistic kernel as perferred by you and me is obviously less than effort for a 50% stripped-down KP as suggested by Woody14619 and/or fmg | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not giving answers I can't keep later on | 23:32 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: ooh, what's the bq27200.ko disaster? | 23:33 |
| merlin1991 | well unless you say you're going to maintain this kernel with pselect and future patches I'm not going for this, pselect fix only is as bad as pushing too much kp into cssu | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and since KP is a mess regarding quilt on top of git on top of dunno what - at least it was last time PaulFertser and me checked - I can't promise anything right now | 23:33 |
| merlin1991 | well quilt on top of git is not that bad, it seperates you changes nicely in the tarball (since that one shouldn't contain .git ever) | 23:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and since pali and fmg have no sound reasons why they'd be willing to maintain a 50% KP for cssu but refuse to maintain a less-effort minimalistic cssu kernel, I'm rather reluctant to discuss stuff based on this | 23:35 |
| merlin1991 | I don't know where you're going atm, but I asked you about stock + patches | 23:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I answered your question: I can't state anything as I don't even know the challenge yet | 23:37 |
| merlin1991 | and then I tried to nudge you to say yes anyway ;) | 23:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last time I built a kernel been 2 years ago, and we based that either on stock or on complete KP of that time, and Paul bitched to Titan about WTF this whole KP is such an unmaintainable mess rather than a manageable normal git setup | 23:38 |
| jon_y | is switching from cssu-testing to -thumb pain free? | 23:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Paul even semi-sanitized stuff back when, and I have NFC if titan adoped it or continue3d to mess up stuff like applying patches on top of patches on top of patches without any versioning or other sane maintenance tools | 23:40 |
| merlin1991 | jon_y: it's rather straight forward, swap the url in the ham repo list and update | 23:41 |
| jon_y | ok, I suppose it's more painful to do it the other way around | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hah, you bet | 23:41 |
| merlin1991 | though I don't know if the -thumb repo is still in maintanance meaning if freemangordon fixed the problem that was there | 23:41 |
| merlin1991 | (he posted on tmo some time ago not to update because the repo is bad) | 23:42 |
| merlin1991 | and I didn't follow what happened afterwards :D | 23:42 |
| jon_y | bad? | 23:42 |
| kerio | wait, what | 23:42 |
| kerio | no | 23:42 |
| kerio | that's wrong | 23:42 |
| kerio | -thumb is in addition to -testing | 23:43 |
| kerio | http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-thumb/community-thumb-fremantle.install | 23:43 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: well with the current state of -testing he can just enable the thumb repo instead for the first update, true though that he'd miss future stuff in -testing | 23:43 |
| jon_y | how do you make -thumb prefered over -testing? | 23:43 |
| kerio | or, if you want to be l33t and stuff, add http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-thumb/ as a repo and upgrade | 23:43 |
| merlin1991 | jon_y: the versions in -thumb are crafted specially in order to be prefereed over testing | 23:43 |
| kerio | jon_y: -cssu0 is less than -cssu0-thumb | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: version afaik | 23:44 |
| jon_y | aha | 23:44 |
| merlin1991 | but yeah, follow the first link kerio gave tof install it, that's the safest way | 23:44 |
| merlin1991 | (by follow I mean open on the n900) | 23:44 |
| jon_y | ok, thanks | 23:44 |
| kerio | jon_y: i'd install kp51r1 first, though | 23:44 |
| kerio | otherwise you end up with kernel-cssu | 23:44 |
| kerio | which is the same, but with a different name | 23:45 |
| jon_y | is it possible to patch up the stock 1.3 for thumb, just as a backup to kp51? | 23:45 |
| jon_y | I already have kp51 | 23:45 |
| jon_y | r1 | 23:45 |
| kerio | jon_y: "meh" | 23:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: you dunno the bq27200.ko desaster? gawd, just read comments on it, and why it's blacklisted in current KP | 23:45 |
| kerio | oh, the current module? | 23:45 |
| kerio | idk, i don't really follow TMO | 23:45 |
| merlin1991 | jon_y: what do you mean by "as a backup to kp51" | 23:45 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: it reboot the system if unloaded? | 23:45 |
| kerio | jon_y: no, that's fixed in r1 | 23:46 |
| jon_y | merlin1991: with uboot and all, its nice to fall back to a working kernel if say kp upgrade got botched | 23:46 |
| kerio | jon_y: no, there's no thumb-enabled kernel compatible with the stock modules | 23:46 |
| jon_y | ok | 23:46 |
| kerio | so you'd still have to install the correct modules | 23:46 |
| kerio | at that point you might as well manually install KP/KCSSU | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: the short sory: somebody built that .ko in a semi-sane way, but it conflicted with bme since both use i2c and expect to have exclusive access. So some "brilliant" hacker removed locking from whole kernel, according to "wtf do we need that anyway?" | 23:46 |
| merlin1991 | is kp51 tumb enabled? | 23:46 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: ...wat | 23:47 |
| kerio | like... every lock? | 23:47 |
| kerio | merlin1991: it is | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | every lock on I2C bus, yes | 23:47 |
| kerio | oh | 23:47 |
| jon_y | uh what | 23:47 |
| kerio | meh, wtf do we need that anyway? :P | 23:47 |
| kerio | merlin1991: in fact, it could be considered a bug | 23:47 |
| merlin1991 | jon_y: if kerio is right, then yes you can use the -thumb kernel as a backup to kp51 (if you have all modules installed) | 23:47 |
| kerio | because the errata workaround is enabled by default | 23:48 |
| kerio | even when it's not needed | 23:48 |
| kerio | merlin1991: the -thumb kernel is the exact same thing as KP51 | 23:48 |
| kerio | except with a different name | 23:48 |
| kerio | and no uninstaller | 23:48 |
| merlin1991 | not 100% afaik | 23:48 |
| jon_y | merlin1991: awesome, just some fidling with the uboot scripts | 23:48 |
| jon_y | btw, why does kp51 install the wifi injection drivers into /opt instead of /lib/modules? | 23:48 |
| kerio | jon_y: what do you need uboot for? | 23:48 |
| jon_y | nitdroid? | 23:49 |
| kerio | PFFFFFFFFF | 23:49 |
| jon_y | for kicks? :) | 23:49 |
| kerio | is the graphics card accelerated, actually? | 23:50 |
| kerio | android games could be neat | 23:50 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: I think in the case of the n900 graphics "card" is kind athe wrong term | 23:50 |
| kerio | well, whatever does polygons in the n900 | 23:50 |
| merlin1991 | also you never ever accelerate your grahpics "card" | 23:50 |
| jon_y | no idea, I may need to get into android development, so poking about without buying new hardware might be cool | 23:50 |
| merlin1991 | ususally you accelerate the rendering of grahpics using the gpu instead of the cpu | 23:51 |
| jon_y | graphic card accelerate your 3D games | 23:51 |
| merlin1991 | but you don't accelerate the "card" :D | 23:51 |
| kerio | well you definetely accelerate it from a stop | 23:51 |
| jon_y | overclocking might count, but its a different story :) | 23:51 |
| kerio | not using it -> using it | 23:51 |
| kerio | >:) | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: yep, afaik KP51 is thumb-enabled | 23:51 |
| merlin1991 | well I do can throw my n900 into the air to accelerate the gpu inside the arm ;) | 23:51 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05: On your earlier comment, yes, a minimalistic kernel could be less effort than a 50% stripped-down KP. But when you compair anything with >0 effort and nobody wanting to do it, vs more effort with someone volunteering to take it on, the one with a worker generally will win. | 23:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless the work done is not what you really want to get in the end | 23:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you remove a small plate on your house front. You look for somebody to paint that 10*10cm patch. Somebody is willing to do it but only when he also may paint your whole house front, incl windows glass and roof. What will you choose? | 23:55 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: well freemangordon volunteered todo a proper review of all kp patches to get rid of the bad ones | 23:55 |
| Woody14619 | Define "you". You as in DocScrutinizer? Maybe. You as in the whole community? Most with CSSU already have KP installed. | 23:55 |
| merlin1991 | Woody14619: that argument is invalid from a cssu perspective | 23:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: proper review done by a single devel is a paradoxon | 23:56 |
| Woody14619 | I agree merlin, in the long term, as CSSU will see expanded usage. | 23:56 |
| Woody14619 | Which is why I'm not for just packaging KP into CSSU as a requirement. | 23:56 |
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| Woody14619 | A proper review by anyone is a good step when the alternative is no review. | 23:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: that's the whole point this annoying debate spins around | 23:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | definition of "proper review" | 23:59 |
| Woody14619 | But let's use your analogy... You've removed the plate, and now have a house with a hole in it. The only carpenter you have wants to patch it and paint the whole front of the house. | 23:59 |
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