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| DocScrutinizer | what a strange spiit is that which makes people complain about Nokia not mainaining stock maemo anymore, then they start to think about pushing jet propulsion power into Diesel CSSU, and when you offer them a jet propulsion test range where they can actually make that bleeding edge "we gonna change the world" stuff happen, they complain again about "devels won't want to support all three" :-S | 03:22 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer | while *sane* devels will want to make their stuff work with STOCK, incl messybox, and only ignorants will develop for messybox-power on thumb with jet propulsion ONLY, and then start whining about so few users are willing to test and use their acme app | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | and honestly any app developed in a way it needs thumb because devel didn't care to make it compatible to ARM (a rather hard thing to accomplish, to make something not work on ARM but only on THUMB)... | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | ...such an "app" probably won't pass the QA criteria for inclusion nto any official repo anyway | 03:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | not because of "dependency" to THUMB, but rather because this has to be the mess of the year to manage it to make build incompatible with ARM | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's almost like maemo initscripts which ahve dependency to messybox as they rely on a bug in messybox and thus will fail with any proper shell | 03:31 |
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| Estel_ | You fail to see the point, DocScrutinizer. you're talking about ideology... | 03:57 |
| Estel_ | And I'm talking about real life, when developer's time is precious | 03:57 |
| Estel_ | and making program, then managing 32643274 versions, due to some fools lacking busybox-power, other using CSSU-lite, other using cssu-extras, other using cssu-rewrites, other using anuy mix of those... | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | Is a real pita | 03:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | now it's evident YOU failed the point, when you think I'm talking about ideology | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | generally, it's hard enough to make people write programs for both Fremantle and Harmattan, for example | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | now, imagine convincing them to write app in 4 variants for fremantle... | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | cssu-lite, cssu-rewrite, cssu-whatever | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | + stock | 03:58 |
| Estel_ | I can imagine the enthusiasm | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | only idiots need 4 variants | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | nope. | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | more advanced apps reqwuire some tools alkready | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | aslo called dependencies ;) | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | experienced devels know to write one version for all | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | now, some of dependencies are only in cssu-rewrite | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | or in cssu-extras-propulsion-whatever | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | other tools, doing similar things, are in stock | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's you huge epic misconception | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | now test Your app in all 4 enviromnents or any combination of those | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | and make them to work | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | NO sane dev will waste time for that | 03:59 |
| Estel_ | OK, but we're not making CSSU for ultra-high-powa-kickass experienced devels only | 04:00 |
| Estel_ | BTYW, I would say we have such devels, hm... maybe 4 of them? | 04:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're telling nonsense | 04:00 |
| Estel_ | and half of our experienced devels still wouldn't take a shit of writing for plentora of ideological variantys, from which only one or two are really usable | 04:00 |
| Estel_ | well, as I've said before - time will tell. If we won't hit problems, it's great, and You're right. | 04:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if pigs had wings | 04:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~wiki posix | 04:01 |
| Estel_ | OTOH, I expect slow but constant process of programs being compatible, or at least *tested* and *confirmed* to work properly: only on one, msot advanced "variant" | 04:01 |
| infobot | At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posix (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Distinguish2|Unix, Unix-like, or Linux}} 'POSIX' ({{IPAc-en|icon|Ë|p|É|z|ɪ|k|s}} {{respell|POZ|iks}}), an acronym for "'P'ortable 'O'perating 'S'ystem 'I'nterface", is a family of standards specified by the IEEE for maintaining compatibility between operating systems. POSIX defines the application programming interface (API), along with command line shells and utility interfaces, . | 04:01 |
| Estel_ | wlel, it's academic discussions, as long as we won't see results | 04:02 |
| Estel_ | bullshit, even simple things as busybox-power (which should be part of CSSU for ages) and busybox causes problems | 04:02 |
| Estel_ | BTW, only in one direction - stock busybox is not compatible, never heard of incompatibility problems with busybox power | 04:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's not academic, that's urinal talk | 04:02 |
| Estel_ | whatever, it's still thing of beliefs | 04:02 |
| Estel_ | You belief it will work and won't require devs to do additional work | 04:03 |
| Estel_ | I think that it *might* be PITA, and if so, everyone will stop wasting time to maintain compatibility. | 04:03 |
| Estel_ | Only time will tell, and it's of no use to argue about that | 04:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | who the fuck says messybox-powaa should be part of CSSU? Please give rationeale | 04:03 |
| Estel_ | 1. upstream, busybox fixes. 2. maemo busybox is crippled, full ash-compliant comes only with busybox-power | 04:04 |
| Estel_ | 3. go and read busybox-power thread | 04:04 |
| Estel_ | 4. it won't introdude *any* regressions | 04:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't give a shit | 04:04 |
| Estel_ | by 2, I mean that m,any things that *should* work, as they're ashh compliant, *doesn't* work, without busybox-power | 04:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | prower unix tools even less will introduce any regression, as there's no regression against the real thing | 04:05 |
| Estel_ | well, maybe You don't, but if I hit problems writing such small and little thing as ereswap, then, I can imagine what is haunting "real" devs | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | proper* | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | no you definitely can'T | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | you have no idea what's a real dev | 04:05 |
| Estel_ | whatever, as I've said it's useless discussion, as only time will tell which directions devs will take. | 04:06 |
| Estel_ | now, You're jsut trying to convince me that Your beliefs are more Yours than mine... If this sentence is understandable for other language's folks too ;) | 04:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, even that isn't exact, as it depends on who's defining what's a "dev" | 04:06 |
| Estel_ | honestly? I think Fabric of Reality (tm) doesn't care about Your or mine definition of dev | 04:07 |
| Estel_ | we just agree to disagree here, and future will tell who was right (or won't, if we hit thermonuclear war tommorow) | 04:07 |
| Estel_ | no need to call anyone names, talk about urinal or fekal talks, etc. Agreed? | 04:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, we don't need thermonuclear war, we will never agree on who was right, as you will never accept that our definition of develper differs | 04:08 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, Estel_ : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAeUf7v49g | 04:09 |
| ShadowJK | (HD available) | 04:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm willing to agree lately we got more and more noobs who take pride in calling themselves developers and actually think messybox-powa is the cutest thing since sliced bread, completely missing the point and concept of original messybox which been "you can do everything you ever need, with just those 14 commands. You just have to *know* your shit with unix shell" | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | and including a longls binary to CSSU, to allow noobs develop shellscripts despite not ever having heard of parameter -l in ls command... Hope you get the metaphor. It's the way that made windows bloated, clumsy, unmaintainable and a general PITA | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | 57 noobs and fools developing and proliferating 296 tools for exactly the same task, and each single one of those 296 is shite and has other idiosyncrasies and flaws, just because nobody had a *concept* | 04:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'S windows | 04:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can'T do that on embedded though, not even with winP7 | 04:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's stuff not available for stock kernel (e.g. netfilters, certain devices, and filesystems for rootfs [other fs can modprobe their fs!]) - we got powerkernel for those who want to develop apps for that | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | ONE powerkernel | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | for stuff in system, there's (and w | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | always been) libraries etc | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | your acme scriptie app depends on busybox-power? BULLSHIT! it maybe depends on a certain commandline tool, like find - so what? make a dependency for it so it installs the command pkg findutils. NOBODY thinks this needs to get included to CSSU | 04:22 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, ping | 12:32 |
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| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I respect Your knowledge in various parts of things related to Maemo and linux as a whole - without any irony - but, honestly, discussing with You is like talking with christian's zealot about corectness of bible. | 13:59 |
| Estel_ | if You don't agree to disagree, that's ok - no problem for me, honestly, and, btw I agee, that we disagree about who developer is. for me it's not *necessary* complete purist, who sacrifice own time time to be "compatible" with some base ideology. Of course, I hate bloat too, but, as it seems, for someone being fully ash compliant is "bloat and powaaah", for others, just normal working environment. | 14:01 |
| Estel_ | it's fine. Opinions and beliefs vary. | 14:01 |
| Estel_ | I don't necessary feel "urge" ;) to enforce my POV on You, so chillout. | 14:02 |
| * DocScrutinizer prepares a special version of qbasic "that should go into CSSU" to finally allow "devels" to use their favourite language | 14:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer | obviously this will have impact on compatibility to stock maemo systems, but so what? Times aren't standing still | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ if that's been needed | 14:27 |
| Estel_ | bad aimed irony, as busybox power doesn't impact on compatibility with stock Maemo. | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | anyway, I see that You still can't give up on this discussion ;) | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | won't interrupt Your evangelic mission, so take Your time, but for now, it's kinda EOT for me. No offense, or hostility. | 14:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | look, Estel_ - we're not talking about devels' playground for CSSU. It's a community driven effort to give continued uninterrupted service and usability to a lot of mere users who don't give a shit about new developments or even about FOSS at all. | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | and all those users paid a friggin lot for their devices incl OS | 14:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | CSSU is _not_ meant to redefine anything of what those users decided and paid for | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | so WTF is the rationale to demand for messybox-powa becoming a part of CSSU, while it - obvious for absolutely everybody - can ship as a normal app package via extras? | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're aware you are asking to include a relatively large additional blob of binary (i.e. busybox-power) into *rootfs*, thus reducing free storage space there for absolutely no user relevant ticket to fix by this action? | 15:17 |
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| Estel_ | Ok, this point is reasonable | 18:54 |
| Estel_ | but, AIUI, cssu-extras is good place for it? | 18:54 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, ^^^ | 18:55 |
| Estel_ | and what about, lets say, camera-ui that is already part of CSSU. should it shift to cssu-extras? | 18:55 |
| Estel_ | following whole logic, it seems it should | 18:55 |
| Estel_ | do you think it wouldn't create a little distraction in user's word, to got downgraded into stock camera-ui again, without ijnstalling cssu-extras? i'm not arguing, that it may not be good thing to do, i'm jsut wondering about practical consequences | 18:56 |
| Estel_ | +, upstream patches from busybox-power (patches != enchancements) should be ported into CSSU independently of busybox-power extra features, or not? Fololowing current CSSu logic, it should be split into two | 18:57 |
| Estel_ | and what about all those fuss re portrait mode. It seems it's place is CSSU-extras | 18:57 |
| Estel_ | modest in CSSU rewrites? or what? | 18:58 |
| Estel_ | all after all, what remains for cssu-barebone? (aka main) | 18:58 |
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| Pali | freemangordon, merlin1991: did somebody tested my HAM patches? | 22:26 |
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| freemangordon | Pali, where are those? | 23:23 |
| freemangordon | and why .debs are not in -devel repo :P | 23:23 |
| Pali | https://gitorious.org/~pali/community-ssu/pali-hildon-application-manager | 23:24 |
| Pali | merlin wrote that he will try it with next update | 23:25 |
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| tadzik | hello | 23:47 |
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| tadzik | I seem to have screwed up my CSSU a bit. I did install it, according to the wiki there's no way to remove it, but after removing some installed packages 'CSSU Features Configuration' says that I have no CSSU installed | 23:50 |
| tadzik | is there any way to force reinstall everything CSSU-related, or I should just reinstall maemo and copy my personal stuff from a backup? | 23:51 |
| Estel_ | if You're not experience,d the latter sounds like good idea | 23:54 |
| Estel_ | tadzik ^^^ | 23:54 |
| Estel_ | but, You could probably just install again what You've uninstalled by mistake | 23:54 |
| Estel_ | FME it should work OK after that, if You know what exactly got screwed | 23:54 |
| tadzik | Estel_: I removed some qtm-packages, and something along about-cssu-blablabla | 23:57 |
| tadzik | I don't mind a little excitement, and I know my way around at least in a "normal" debian :) | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | so reinstall some qtm packages, and something along about-cssu-blablabla | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | ;) | 23:58 |
| tadzik | hehe | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | excitement is good, as long as you have backupmenu installed | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | and proper rootfs+optfs backup | 23:58 |
| tadzik | thing is, I did a backup before that, not the bootmenu stuff, but this maemo backup thing | 23:58 |
| tadzik | and it was supposed to backup application list too | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | Honestly never used it, if You try backupmenu once, you would never go back to maemo backup stuff | 23:59 |
| tadzik | and it did, it mangled stuff a bit, but that doesn't seem to have helped much | 23:59 |
| tadzik | well, the backup from backupmenu is probably the pre-cssu one | 23:59 |
| Estel_ | I wouldnt rely bundled-in backup stuff to backup anything above contacts and, maybe, sms'es | 23:59 |
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