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| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki karma is fubar | 16:07 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | even history/edits in wiki is fubar | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki doesn't find a single edit of me, since there's some terrible mess going on with auto-capitalization of user name, account having lower case name, and even "_" converts to space | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=joerg_rw&namespace=&year=2014&month=-1 | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I suggested to have all searches case-insensitive, to fix this PITA | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley_ didn't do anything so far, afaik | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bottom line: wiki karma is fubar, literally. | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fcuked up beyond any repair | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any wiki karma reported is mere cache and obsolete | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other karma types subject to close investigation if they are really up-to-date or similarly broken and only from cache and 2 years old | 16:25 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: are you able to calculate chainsawbike 's karma by hand? | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, no idea how to do that. I can't even find out about his contributions to wiki | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at least I suspect that | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even when wiki *would* list some edits done by him, you never know if the list is complete, or if 80% are hidden just like for me 100% are hidden | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I hate to say it, but: I told you guys that karma is broken and thus elections on the brink, a ~6 or 8 weeks ago (and several times before) | 16:51 |
| chem|st | hmm who did calculate karma for the election before last? wasn't someone doing stuff by hand? | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we used obsolete old data | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this time it seems we got a community-provided new but totally incorrect karma list | 16:56 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | I compiled a list from m.o, If stuff that feeds that list is broken I wouldn't know. | 20:13 |
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| Win7Mac | Isn't this any good?: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2014/Eligible_candidates | 20:16 |
| Win7Mac | hi 6wheely... ;) | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: of course. Nobody blaming you. I blame borked infra | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just say it's impossible to create a correct such list, so elections are fundamentally flawed | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maybe some of you remember I mentioned this problem immediately after last elections, and said this MUST get fixed until next ones. Well now are "next ones" elextions, nothing got fixed. Here we are | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's state of thngs. Now we have to think how to deal with it | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I suggested to *guess* when needed, e.g. for chainsawbike's karma | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any better suggestions welcome | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the two extremes of our range of options are: a) completely ignore the problem z) completely ignore the rules | 20:26 |
| Win7Mac | I suggest to stick to http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2014/Eligible_candidates | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fixing karma seems no feasible option | 20:27 |
| Win7Mac | In case of ambiguity we need to look into it | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aha | 20:27 |
| Win7Mac | that page just needs some reformatting, prefferably by script. sixwheeledbeast... ^^? ;) | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we have a case of ambiguity for every single decision that depends on karma | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even for electorate | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *particularly* for electorate | 20:29 |
| Win7Mac | hmmm... | 20:30 |
| Win7Mac | sixwheeledbeast, would it be possible for you to such a wiki-page? | 20:31 |
| Win7Mac | *create | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | election a year ago we offered that everybody who wants and is member of garage since longer than quarantine can have a balot, no matter what karma | 20:31 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Win7Mac: it's hard work to reformat, hence it's current state | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it's a basically useless list anyway | 20:32 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It didn't have columns until a week ago | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly for those who don't have enough karma | 20:32 |
| Win7Mac | well, adopting the criteria seems more feasible than fixing the technical flaws... | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | according to that list, but maybe in real have enough nevertheless | 20:32 |
| sixwheeledbeast | oh o/ Win7Mac too... | 20:33 |
| Win7Mac | o/ | 20:33 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I know that nobody is blaming me :) | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, have fun guys. I am strictly limted to 60min per week for council. And those are already used up | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good luck! | 20:35 |
| sixwheeledbeast | hmm, well can anybody suggest which bits of the karma system are broken. Obviously some of it must be working. | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki definitely dead | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other stuff up to scrutinizing | 20:37 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I say "some" must be working as the values have changed | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you won't fix wiki based karma before you fix wiki user contributions listing | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, we fixed tmo karma some 6 months ago | 20:38 |
| sixwheeledbeast | IIRC was woody looking into karma ages ago? | 20:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ah | 20:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | that may have been what I recall. | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it was like 6 dudes looking ito it for 2 weeks to make tmo karma work again | 20:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ok so what else contribs to karma? | 20:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~karma | 20:40 |
| sixwheeledbeast | doh | 20:40 |
| sixwheeledbeast | http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma | 20:40 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I suppose, testing and working out what's actually broken would be a good step. | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, but definitely no simple task | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. tmo karma takes a week or two to update | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki takes forever | 20:46 |
| sixwheeledbeast | takes or took? | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other stuff might be mere random, depending e.g. where in sort order of your first, last, nick name, or account number you are | 20:46 |
| freemangordon | I guess it is the same problem with that leak eating all the RAM and hitting swap, so processing never ends | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki is broken | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | in midgard that is | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nope, it's wiki itself that's broken | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | oh | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which doesn't mean the rest is working | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=joerg_rw&namespace=&year=2014&month=-1 | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | yeah. I'll try to catch with warfare these days and finally patch midgard | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wiki is unrelated to mdgard | 20:48 |
| freemangordon | still, I'll try to do it | 20:49 |
| sixwheeledbeast | that would be good | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's genuine fuckup in mediawiki, who thought auto-capitalizing user names would be a great idea | 20:49 |
| warfare | freemangordon: I'm free on the weekend. | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, cya folks | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | warfare: unfortunately I am not, going to see how's black see doing :) | 20:50 |
| Win7Mac | ask Ashley for help, he seems to know such stuff | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | so next week/weekend | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he said it's fubar | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and didn't do anything about it since ... 6 months? | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe you missed it, ashley is our wiki maintainer | 20:51 |
| warfare | freemangordon: ping me when you've got time. | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | sure | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what I'm telling here is quotes of him | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no need to ask him again | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | warfare: BTW do we have some kind of "test environment" ? | 20:52 |
| sixwheeledbeast | http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Joerg+rw&page=&year=2014&month=-1 | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | for midgard that is? | 20:52 |
| warfare | freemangordon: not really. | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | any chance to run some of the backup VM images, even on weak HW, just to see it will be still running after we install the new .debs? | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: great! so at least *new* contributions are find-able | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | old ones however... | 20:54 |
| sixwheeledbeast | how old? | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I miss a damn lot of my edits | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can't tell which ones off top of my head, but I'm absolutely sure there been more than those ?? 70 ?? that are on http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special:Log&offset=20150101000000&limit=500&user=Joerg+rw&month=&year=2014 | 20:56 |
| warfare | freemangordon: I can try to build a virtualbox vm.. | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | warfare: or we can think of a good "revert plan" | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (cur) (prev) 2010-07-25T00:03:36 joerg_rw (Talk | contribs | block) (4,191 bytes) (added p16..18, notes on components) (undo) | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_Schematic&action=history | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oldest in my list of contributions is >> 2011-11-17T13:58:36 joerg_rw (Talk | contribs | block) moved Talk:Task:Community Council/Eligible voters to SPAM please delete (no way to delete initial edits) (revert) << | 20:58 |
| freemangordon | warfare: take MO down, backup the VM, bring it back up, upgrade midgard packages, check. sounds feasible? | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it feels like there are also missing edits in between, like e.g. during 2012, 2013 | 20:59 |
| sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: it seems that it only remembers last 500 events for each person | 20:59 |
| warfare | freemangordon: +backup the database somewhere in between. | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | ywah | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | yeah* | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: what I see are maybe 50 but for sure no 500 | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | warfare: anyway, you know better than me on that matter, so I count on you to have a rollback plan :) | 20:59 |
| warfare | :) | 21:00 |
| warfare | I'm out, hotel internet is starting to lose packets. l8ters! | 21:00 |
| sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special:Log&limit=500&user=Joerg+rw&month=&year= | 21:01 |
| Win7Mac | and it does not work to edit parameters in addressbar: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=999&limit=999 | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: yes, so what? | 21:01 |
| sixwheeledbeast | that's your last 500 events? | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wtf? count them, do you see 500? | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | looks like 55 to me | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this whole thing is totally fubar | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm so totally afk now | 21:04 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Ln272 | 21:04 |
| sixwheeledbeast | so 272 events | 21:04 |
| sixwheeledbeast | well it's not limited to time so there must be a max events on each person | 21:05 |
| Win7Mac | If all attempts fail - how about this?: Candidates need to have garage-account for 1 year + karma(w/o wiki) of >=50; voters need to have garage-account for 3 months + karma(w/o wiki) of >=5 | 21:05 |
| sixwheeledbeast | need referendum to change rules? | 21:06 |
| Win7Mac | well, probably for next election... | 21:07 |
| Win7Mac | but well... | 21:07 |
| Win7Mac | wait... | 21:07 |
| Win7Mac | for now, HiFo is in effect and a referendum indeed would be required | 21:09 |
| Win7Mac | for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) or a referendum may change that | 21:11 |
| Win7Mac | which parts of karma actually do work? | 21:13 |
| Win7Mac | tmo works, right? | 21:15 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It seems | 21:16 |
| sixwheeledbeast | as above testing them isn't going to be easy | 21:16 |
| sixwheeledbeast | there are so many bits that are interlinked Products and packages for example | 21:18 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: do you have the links for your updated terms and stuff at hand? | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: (Ln272) wut? | 21:19 |
| sixwheeledbeast | package testing could be tested, someone can check there karma vote on a package. I recommend zzztop ;) then wait see if Karma changes | 21:20 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I copied to gedit there where 272 lines | 21:20 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, i sent links to webpads in a mail some months ago... | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: stop interpreting COUNCIL rules like they were any related to HiFo! | 21:21 |
| Win7Mac | and instead? | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo council is neither ruled by HiFo nor by any e.V. | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: on my screen there were like 4.5 screens full of 2liner entries each with a bullez left side. each screen had ~15 bullets | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooops, rather 3.5 | 21:24 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I had a load more than that, I have a widescreen TV for monitor so all on one line here :) | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/12/plasma-desktopFd1787.png | 21:25 |
| chem|st | sounds like war again... | 21:26 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: you actually do get board@ mails.... why are you reminding me about things that are already replied? | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/fcbae9658f | 21:28 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: I did not get the godaddy billing, was that fwd by rob? | 21:29 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: tim samoff should have the credentials, and I thought he is in charge of all the hifo.org stuff.... | 21:30 |
| Win7Mac | he is, afaik | 21:31 |
| chem|st | neat you found the mail! | 21:31 |
| Win7Mac | links inside... | 21:31 |
| chem|st | yeah and still working! | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: in a 3 .. 4 weeks, HiFo and leaving council together can decide to abolish maemo community council. The HiFo is free to do whatever they like. Until then there's a maemo community council like it been for >4 years now, and the rules are: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process. Council has to try to adhere to those rules, not leave it up to any other entity to decide about new rules | 21:32 |
| chem|st | juiceme: can you crossread the terms Win7Mac sent please, I read over them once now, I will ask my sister to do so as well | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: when your e.V rules are not in line with http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process then *you* messed up | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo council CANNOT change those rules | 21:33 |
| Win7Mac | told you twice and sent you all the documents... they are the same | 21:34 |
| chem|st | and wont need to be changed?! | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, then I fal to understand the meaning of >><Win7Mac> for now, HiFo is in effect and a referendum indeed would be required <Win7Mac> for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) or a referendum may change that<< | 21:36 |
| Win7Mac | except that general assembly HAS TO HAVE the right to change those rules, because the have set them. they HAVE TO remain ownership | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail, even | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then council doesn't care about that | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your problem | 21:36 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: exactly... | 21:37 |
| chem|st | for legal reasons thay have to have this right... that is nothing I am scared of to blow in our faces | 21:37 |
| chem|st | nvm afk... | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo community council(!!) is responsible to do proper elections. Nothing in HiFo or any e.V. matters to that | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly nobody has any onwership of maemo council and the rules the council promised to follow | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if *anything* then council is supposed to "own" HiFo | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo is NOT the new council, doesn not oversee the council, and does not rule council. Nor will any e.V., unless council (or HiFo) initiates a referendum to allow council to change rules | 21:43 |
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| Win7Mac | why THE F*CK you refuse to accept the result of the referendum you and me and everybody else once fought for???!!! | 22:05 |
| Win7Mac | there is exactly 1 council | 22:05 |
| Win7Mac | and HiFo will pass it to the e.v. even without "owning" it | 22:06 |
| Win7Mac | its a community-wide consensus and you're the only one refusing it | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dream on | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody will "pass it" to anywhere. Council exists and doiesn't give a fart about your ranting | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you evidently live in a parallel universe, since what I witnessed in this one been HiFo council accepting to be identical to maemo community council, after HiFo accepted the election of a HiFo council | 22:21 |
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| Win7Mac | exactly... so there is 1 council left... so whats your point? | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for this purpose we had a referendum to marginally adjust maemo council rules to fix a few ambiguities. That didn't install any nonsensical superiority of HiFo over council. And your e.V. is completely unrelated to council unless you accept the maemo community council including the rules it follows to be an entity of your e.V. | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your ideas of "pass it to" and "for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) [...] can change that" are delusional | 22:24 |
| Win7Mac | rules *are* included in MY e.V... ;) | 22:24 |
| Win7Mac | and you signed the bylaws... | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's still *your* rules, and you maybe stole it from maemo community council but that doesn't mean you can change them now and council will follow | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *you* accepted m*maemo council's* rules, not the other way round | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and those rules don't allow any nonsense like "for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) [...] can change that" | 22:26 |
| Win7Mac | i have no problem (though I won't be in charge then) to have a refendum to change the ruls if the situation demands and it gets clarified to community | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so please stop suggesting such nonsense | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | A clean refernedum is the only way to chnage the maemo council rules, incl election rules | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no "for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) [...] can change that" | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and even now elections are not related to HiFo really | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since it's council that does the elections | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo agreed to accept the results of such elections. And that's it | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no way HiFo or any e.V. can change the rules. ever | 22:32 |
| Win7Mac | you are drawing a line here that is superfluous, nobody besides us really cares, everybody's just happy that things work, if they do | 22:33 |
| Win7Mac | what if referendum gets rejected... | 22:33 |
| Win7Mac | and leave us with a situation unable to have regular elections... | 22:34 |
| Win7Mac | ??? | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then it's still up to COUNCIL to handle that | 22:34 |
| Win7Mac | so what would you do? | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | according to the rules, as closely as possible | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | first thing I would do: make sure that it's not *you* who has a saying in what to do next | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ther rules are comprehensive and pretty simple and clear. I don't need such virtual scenario games | 22:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | all I need is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process and definitely not a single word more | 22:38 |
| Win7Mac | yeah, me too, good night! Enjoy *YOUR* council! | 22:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | when there are problems in folowing those rules, then council is supposed to follow them as close as possible, making changes only where needed, in a way that best suits the original intention | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | emphasis on COUNCIL | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | under very specific conditions in cooperation with HiFo | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/make changes/make a temporary compromise for the special problem/ | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, good that we agree it's not win7mak's council ;-P I started worrying he never will admit that | 22:47 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks | 22:48 | |
| * sixwheeledbeast deskheads | 22:49 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "for next elects (with the e.V. in charge), the General Assembly (founders only so far) [...] can change that" -- NO Sir! CANNOT | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's exactly one entity that can change that, and that's community as defined in http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by a referendum | 22:50 |
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| juiceme | chem|st, I'll do that. | 23:51 |
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