| Win7Mac | And an edit to 12) "Changes to any of the above rules must be approved by community referendum" will be dilated by an opportunity for the general assembly (regular members) to edit the Association Rules | 00:35 |
|---|---|---|
| Win7Mac | so both, general assembly (regular members) and community via referndum can edit the Association Rules | 00:36 |
| Win7Mac | removing allowance for general assembly to alter the Association Rules is not easy, if possible at all | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as eV rules don't conflict with MC rules, they may add or augment stuff | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there just mustn't be any contradictional rules, like about number of council members | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/onal/ng/ | 00:43 |
| Win7Mac | ok, then all is good | 00:44 |
| chem|st | honestly, at some point there is no need to align anything anymore, once aligned the association rules are in place and the rest will be void | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eV can add a requirement to wear funny hat, but the rules mustn't exclude otherwise eligible community members, or otherwise redefine council or electorate, or the rights and powers they have | 00:46 |
| chem|st | rights and powers is something completely different, counil has as much power as given by the eV, everything else I would not consider power | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the problem | 00:48 |
| chem|st | there is no problem | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can't redefine council | 00:48 |
| Win7Mac | it isn't | 00:48 |
| chem|st | I cannot, yes. | 00:48 |
| chem|st | and I wont | 00:48 |
| chem|st | what are you holding on to? | 00:49 |
| chem|st | there is only one thing that cannot be redefined, it is the voice of the passive garage account holders | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | neither HiFo nor eV is defining what's the powers of council. MC rules do | 00:50 |
| chem|st | ok then council has no power?! | 00:51 |
| Win7Mac | well, the bylaws of the ev defines that | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no they don't | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any bylaws are irrelevant for MC | 00:52 |
| chem|st | what is the matter with you | 00:52 |
| Win7Mac | ...and the Association Rules | 00:52 |
| chem|st | what you refer to as council is not a council of the eV but the community only | 00:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your statement about "there's no council activity outside of the HiFo/eV" is outright incorrect. MC >> HiFo | 00:53 |
| chem|st | we had that, that is what we DON'T want! | 00:53 |
| Win7Mac | and that can be changed if need be, but for now, it'll be the same | 00:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then you're out of luck | 00:53 |
| chem|st | so you mean that council is the highes jurisdiction? | 00:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, definitely | 00:54 |
| chem|st | it is not | 00:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | says who? | 00:54 |
| Win7Mac | in ANY eV thats the general assemly, no way around that | 00:54 |
| chem|st | and that is not me saying that is US Law German Law and most probably every other western countries | 00:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm, do you see any law MC is supposed to follow? | 00:55 |
| Win7Mac | eV bylaws and Association Rules | 00:55 |
| chem|st | council by its means has no responsibilities or liabilities and no legal body and cannot be what you like it to be | 00:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MC is not bound to any eV bylaws you invented | 00:56 |
| chem|st | it is not eV bylaws I invented... how do you want to run a company with this lack of expertise? | 00:56 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, no, it is a body with responsibilities | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: well, good luck with your hostile takeover of community then | 00:56 |
| chem|st | responsibilities to the one holding the legal responsibilities | 00:57 |
| chem|st | what hostile takeover? | 00:57 |
| chem|st | wtf are you talking about | 00:57 |
| chem|st | what are you trying to achieve? | 00:58 |
| chem|st | forming an eV around an existing community is hostile takeover? | 01:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can form 100 eV around anything you want | 01:01 |
| chem|st | we to extraordinary care to fit as good as it gets, dumped any idea of asking outsiders for being founders | 01:01 |
| chem|st | so what you are actually telling is that you will block any move torwards evolving the community into a legal body itself | 01:02 |
| chem|st | ? | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a council in this community called the maemo council. It is considered highest authority regarding all organizational stuff. You won't succeed redefining that according to what you think it should be | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good night | 01:04 |
| Win7Mac | where is it written that today, the council is the highest authority? | 01:05 |
| chem|st | ah ok so we just need to kill garage userDB then...or wait for it to happen, no members - no council... | 01:05 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: it does not matter, having authority over organizational stuff is currently not our concern... | 01:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you tried to kill userDB, you failed | 01:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | techstaff won't allow | 01:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | council won't allow | 01:08 |
| chem|st | wooohooo then wait for it to fail... | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo isn't your private sandbox | 01:09 |
| chem|st | and stop trolling | 01:09 |
| chem|st | and the fsck stop getting personal | 01:09 |
| Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, are you seriously saying that HFC and MCC are not the same, despite last referendum? | 01:10 |
| Win7Mac | you feel as MCC only, but not HFC? | 01:10 |
| chem|st | and vote by both councils | 01:10 |
| chem|st | you cannot have one without the other atm | 01:11 |
| chem|st | or be member of | 01:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you both seem thoroughly confused and upset | 01:15 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: just to remind you, "MCC agrees to align all future changes to be in line with HFC's procedures of change so that the Bylaws are adhered to." | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 01:16 |
| Win7Mac | selective awareness? | 01:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that is a road with two directions to go. You can't even change bylaws now without a referendum | 01:16 |
| chainsawbike | DocScrutinizer05, what is the core problem you have with the proposed e.V arrangement/transition and what do you propose to fix it? | 01:17 |
| chem|st | yes, HFC procedures change, MCC needs to align, MCC rules change HFC has to align... | 01:17 |
| chem|st | so we change the procedures and MCC needs to align | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MCC does NOT need to align | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MCC CANNOT allign | 01:18 |
| Win7Mac | guys, we have 1 council | 01:18 |
| Win7Mac | they been unified | 01:18 |
| Win7Mac | so what does not help here | 01:18 |
| Win7Mac | HiFo will dissolve and election rules for council will be 100% adopted + general assembly can change association rules too | 01:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you suggesting >>MCC needs to align<< is what I call a parole for a hostile takeover | 01:20 |
| chem|st | nvm doc wont answer questions without pointing out that nothing can be changed, despite the fact that if all and everything gets transfered to any legal body it is only bound to what is set in the transfer agreement | 01:21 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: that is the wording of the resolution you voted on! | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your approach of denying MCC as highest instance in maemo community is exactly why I got agrues with HiFo | 01:22 |
| chem|st | and you will get that with the eV too, do you have authority issues? | 01:22 |
| Win7Mac | again, where is it written that today, the council is the highest authority? | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do you have power phantasy issues? | 01:23 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: you are getting personal again | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: where's written anything else, during last 5 years? | 01:23 |
| Win7Mac | never was meant like that, Nokia been the boss | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: a sin you're absolutely innocent of | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like a 6 y o boy | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: BZZZ FALSE. Nokia never been the boss of community or council | 01:24 |
| Win7Mac | ah, whatever... :( | 01:25 |
| chem|st | that is not actually true, the one giving authority is the one who may take it again | 01:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | authority of council been given by community | 01:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and of course only community can take that again, NOT HiFo, NOT any eV of your liking, with you as boss for next 5 years | 01:27 |
| chem|st | authority of what? | 01:27 |
| chem|st | you are misunderstanding the position of a director | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the one you talked about | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as well as any arbitrary other authority | 01:28 |
| chem|st | authority over property, no that was given by nokia not by community | 01:28 |
| chem|st | in case of talk, by HiFo | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | property, go ahead | 01:29 |
| Win7Mac | guys, stop it please | 01:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | council, no way | 01:29 |
| chainsawbike | DocScrutinizer05, Win7Mac, chem|st, as an observer i highly recommend everyone take a break and gather evidence to support their assertions - i doubt you will resolve this by continuing arguing like this without stating solid evidence to back yourself up | 01:29 |
| chem|st | what, I am asking of what authority he is talking | 01:29 |
| Win7Mac | LOOK, it's a complete new start. We are a bunch of guys that agree to continue what has been established. | 01:29 |
| Win7Mac | regulations regarding council are 100% adopted | 01:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-03-11 23:54:10] <chem|st> so you mean that council is the highes jurisdiction? | 01:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-03-11 23:54:19] <DocScrutinizer05> yes, definitely | 01:30 |
| chem|st | authority over starting an election of itself, a referendum of its own rules | 01:30 |
| chem|st | we do not take that away as that is given by the community, ok | 01:30 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: again by what authority? | 01:31 |
| chem|st | community? that is the legal authority to represent someone... | 01:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | In addition to being committed community members (and all that entails), some of the specific responsibilities of the council include: | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Facilitation: making sure that one portion of the community knows what is going on in another | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | **Representing the community with regards to the paid maemo.org contributors** | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | **Hiring of maemo.org staff** | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pushing to expand the community through organic growth | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ****Being able to represent the community to Nokia, especially when *dealing* *with* *sensitive* *information*; for example, attendance at N900 launch as community reps. | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Backup mentors for the Google Summer of Code participation. | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *SOME OF* | 01:33 |
| chem|st | responsibilities... | 01:33 |
| Win7Mac | by founding a new thing we're not really bound to what been there, but we make sure the parts about council are 100% adopted. | 01:33 |
| Win7Mac | OK???!!! | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: you won't convince chem|st | 01:34 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: forget it... he does not want to get it | 01:34 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: convince me about what | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one of the powers of council re HiFo been the red button that causes elections of both bodies | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which pretty much shows relation between council and HiFo | 01:35 |
| chem|st | you can cast elections of HiFo sure | 01:35 |
| chem|st | if you read the bylaws you may know how that works in an eV | 01:36 |
| Win7Mac | either way, general assembly will be highest jurisdiction in any e.V., no way around that | 01:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway have fun with your coup d'etat, I bet on you failing in the end | 01:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | community won't appreciate that | 01:36 |
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| Win7Mac | no need for red button any more | 01:36 |
| Win7Mac | each body, community assembly AND general assembly can edit the association regulations | 01:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm >><Win7Mac> regulations regarding council are 100% adopted<< >><Win7Mac> no need for red button any more<< suuuure | 01:37 |
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| Win7Mac | (not the bylaws though, that can only be altered by general assembly or board | 01:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly guys! good night, for good now | 01:38 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: I give up, he thinks I want to have a one man show and does not get that the chairman is the association donkey just like the secretary and the treasurer... | 01:38 |
| Win7Mac | its made EASIER! | 01:38 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: cease | 01:38 |
| Win7Mac | damn it, read the bylaws | 01:38 |
| Win7Mac | look at the diagramm: | 01:39 |
| Win7Mac | http://i.imgur.com/XQFJhy8.jpg | 01:39 |
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| chem|st | o/ | 01:41 |
| Win7Mac | as long as we can forward with >DocScrutinizer05: "as long as eV rules don't conflict with MC rules, they may add or augment stuff" | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm fed up with this kindergarden! I told you you can't redefine MC. and for MC to be genuine part of any new entity it needs ALL rules negotiated between HiFo and any such new entity to get copied 100% verbatim (or you start a referendum to change MC rules). You constantly accusing me of being to stupid to see how what you plan to do is much better than what I stated is mandatory is pissing me off. Don't approach me again about | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that shit! | 01:44 |
| Win7Mac | ... | 01:45 |
| Win7Mac | We're NOT redefining MC! | 01:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | let's see what community thinks about that, when you tell them HiFo>>council and Nokia is boss of community (and implying that HiFo inherited that power from Nokia) | 01:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | MC= community's elected proxy; HiFo == community's cashier; community >> council >> HiFo. THAT been last elections' mantra, particularly (but not only) mine. You trying to bend and tweak that now so it matches your desires and needs is not a particularly honest thing | 02:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I bet community won't appreciate that | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I promise you that, when you try to transfer assets from HiFo which been under control of council to any eV which isn't, you get into *big* trouble, legally | 02:04 |
| Win7Mac2 | please tell me more about my desires | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | umm, "typo" | 02:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm fed up with this kindergarden! I told you you can't redefine MC. and for MC to be genuine part of any new entity it needs ALL rules negotiated between HiFo and MC to get copied 100% verbatim to any such new entity (or you start a referendum to change MC rules). You constantly accusing me of being to stupid to see how what you plan to do is much better than what I stated is mandatory is pissing me off. Don't approach me again | 02:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | about that shit! | 02:37 |
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| Win7Mac2 | you know in a german e.V. there *has* to be a general assembly. Where do you put that in your model? | 02:39 |
| Win7Mac2 | without an answer to that, your critics are worth nothing | 02:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | note please that I *have no model*, it's your baby | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just accusing me to not enable your project doesn't help you either | 02:52 |
| Win7Mac2 | ah, HiFo business i guess | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gues whatever you like, I'm not involved in that HiFo / e.V. thing | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | going to beat dady's leg because he can't buy you a unicorn? | 02:54 |
| Win7Mac2 | well, I was hoping for pink pony, tbh | 02:55 |
| Win7Mac2 | that matches your desires and needs you know? | 02:56 |
| Win7Mac2 | *my | 02:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try harder, maybe it comes true. But don't hope for help from my side, except *maybe* showing you the pitfalls | 02:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | by design and history and definition HiFo been meant to execute council's decisions as long as they are not illegal or outright rogue. council has red button to stop HiFo from going crazy with those assets, and to stop council from abusing that option, it's been designed to cause election of *both* bodies. The intention however is pretty obvious. Either you find an equal or better way to ensure control of council (community's | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | proxy) over what HiFo resp your e.V. does, or you inevitably run into severe trouble with those who donated to a HiFo that been supposed to do what community elected council decided | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | council never can agree on anything that's not ensuring that aspect, as well as others agreed upon between council and HiFo | 03:09 |
| Win7Mac2 | bylaws § 7 (Board of directors) (5): The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings. | 03:11 |
| Win7Mac2 | Isn't that enough? | 03:11 |
| Win7Mac2 | Did you even dare to read? | 03:12 |
| Win7Mac2 | *care | 03:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that sounds like a start | 03:13 |
| Win7Mac2 | What more are we supposed to put in words there, dickhead? | 03:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno, a**hle | 03:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yackfoo! | 03:14 |
| Win7Mac2 | s*cker... | 03:14 |
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| Win7Mac | still, the General Assembly will remain the highest jurisdiction in any e.V. | 03:18 |
| Win7Mac | good night o/ | 03:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | a real bless to deal with that HiFo | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | always a mere joy to help. God gracious! | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, good luck! I'm not inclined to gibe *any* further support | 03:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | give, even | 03:25 |
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| Win7Mac | any support from your side is yet to be seen, let alone "further". so far, your contributions been roadblocks and I'm not convinced your duty as councilor is to sit and wait if a solution that suits your idea of what the e.V. should be like comes around. | 03:56 |
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| Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, edits have been made to fully adopt current council election rules (Association Rules § 4.1). Now please state if you agree to be voted for council only (and stay passive member) or want to be a founder (and become regular member) as well. | 20:31 |
| Win7Mac | so we can find a date for the kickoff-meeting soon | 20:32 |
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