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| chem|st | I just received note that HiFoeV's Articles of Incorporation have been validated by a courtworker and are thereby fit for application. | 11:15 |
|---|---|---|
| sixwheeledbeast | yay | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I'm traveling and only available via GPRS, so response times and even connectivity might be flawed | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | also announcing that no more donations for maemo will get accepted on my PP acct | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I hope HiFo will sort theirs so anybody considering donating for maemo whatever (except specific general techstaff support which seems not possible) should use HiFo acct for that | 21:17 |
| juiceme | o/ | 21:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | hi juiceme ! could you try to follow up on that HiFo defines original council as their consulting and deciding entity? I'm on travel and no good connectivity | 21:59 |
| juiceme | hi | 22:00 |
| juiceme | I certainly hope we reach a common understanding here. | 22:00 |
| Win7Mac | hi | 22:01 |
| juiceme | hi! | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | who wouldn't - despipe other rumor I'm not averse in any way against that e.V. | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | despite | 22:02 |
| Win7Mac | that sounds good! :) | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | heck, it seems I came up with the suggestion | 22:03 |
| sixwheeledbeast | o/ | 22:03 |
| juiceme | hi | 22:03 |
| Win7Mac | you could join the kickoff meeting, stay passive member and candidate for council | 22:03 |
| Win7Mac | or become regular member, as you like | 22:04 |
| Win7Mac | but lets hear your suggestion | 22:04 |
| chem|st | o/ | 22:05 |
| Win7Mac | o/ chem|st + sixwheeledbeast | 22:05 |
| juiceme | well, there's been a lot of heated discussion lately but we should be able to resolve it all now, righrt? | 22:06 |
| Win7Mac | sure | 22:06 |
| chem|st | juiceme: there was no discussion I know of at least none regarding the founding of the eV | 22:07 |
| juiceme | yes | 22:07 |
| juiceme | so, how do we organize this now, as this is the kickoff meeting do we need to handle something differently? | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | this is what? | 22:09 |
| chem|st | juiceme: no kickoff without 7 peopel of which 3 are willing to become director and 5 are willing to become council | 22:09 |
| juiceme | I thought that was already settled, that there'd be enough candidates. | 22:09 |
| chem|st | juiceme: we are one short and currently 3 are missing | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | become council? | 22:10 |
| juiceme | as nieldk vlounteered, and I kind of got the idea that there were others also... | 22:10 |
| chem|st | juiceme: then start counting, I will find the papers | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | there already exst the one and only council, and there are binding rules how it gets established and what it is responsible for | 22:12 |
| chem|st | ok Doc how about you get on with it then? | 22:12 |
| chem|st | please elaborate! | 22:12 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | eh? | 22:13 |
| Win7Mac | sorry, forgot to post accordingly... kickoff-meeting will be postponed until friday or next week | 22:13 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, okay | 22:13 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: we do not touch your fucking council... how often do we need to say that? | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | thanks for that outburst | 22:14 |
| chem|st | yw | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | it shows off something | 22:15 |
| chem|st | what does it show? you act like estel or dave constantly repeating the same thing | 22:15 |
| juiceme | what I think is there's some misunderstanding of terms, what is council and what is board | 22:16 |
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| chem|st | it was told several times now that the council will be elected like it should and it stays what it is, just to make you happy | 22:16 |
| chem|st | juiceme: there is some complete misunderstanding of the concept of an association | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | sorry, the last maybe 30 posts make no sense to me, they sound completely contradicting each other | 22:17 |
| juiceme | chem|st, I think it is possible, since there's talk of people willing to become council, sinde we already have council, so election is needed. | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | exactly | 22:19 |
| Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, if you reject the "invitation" to candidate for council, we can't help you | 22:20 |
| chem|st | juiceme: to found the association we need to vote on A council, the founders need to do that, later after we founded normal elections will take place | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | mhm | 22:20 |
| Win7Mac | it's a valid temporary solution, next regular elections will be held as sonn as appropriate | 22:20 |
| chem|st | so how would you like to have it? | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | mhm | 22:21 |
| juiceme | I am not familiar with procedures, so I need to take your word on it :) | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | saorry, lags | 22:21 |
| chem|st | juiceme: well the procedures are only for the founding, that is exactly reflected word by word in the bylaws | 22:22 |
| juiceme | ok | 22:22 |
| chem|st | after that "normal" election rules apply | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | juiceme: the procedures for maemo council are 'written in stone' and easy to find | 22:22 |
| Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, simply accept and all is good, only two more needed then, which we will vote for in the kickoff meeting | 22:22 |
| Win7Mac | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process | 22:23 |
| Win7Mac | has been adopted | 22:23 |
| chem|st | that way the current council would stay the same and get enhanced by 2 silent followers for the time being | 22:23 |
| Win7Mac | already wentioned all this last week | 22:23 |
| chem|st | and the week before | 22:24 |
| Win7Mac | and on tmo | 22:24 |
| chem|st | and on ML | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I'm accepting what exactly? that I as maemo council member become a member of the new hifo_interim_council? and that no other than the current council members can enter maemo council until next regular elections? I have no issues with that | 22:25 |
| juiceme | yes, that is as I have understood it | 22:25 |
| chem|st | no other does not work, the interim as you call it has 5 members | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | that's a ko criterion | 22:26 |
| juiceme | the currcent council stays as is, and there will exist the interim council aside it | 22:26 |
| chem|st | why | 22:26 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: elaborate | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | maemo council members get elected | 22:26 |
| chem|st | ok again for the 6 year old... maemo council is untouched till the next election | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | so why do you sy "no unelected membersw entering maemo council" doesn't work? | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | for the 90 year old | 22:28 |
| juiceme | that is why I said there is confusion of terminology. | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | btw you say maemo council rules got adopted, however you don't allow perfectly legit 3 member maemo council | 22:30 |
| Win7Mac | no, all founders will vote for 5 councilors and as there will be only 5, all are elected | 22:30 |
| Win7Mac | true | 22:31 |
| Win7Mac | we opted for 5 instead | 22:31 |
| chem|st | we are bound by law, if this makes another referendum necessary so be it for now it is like that | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | so you redefinesd rules durtion | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | damn | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | so you redefinesd rules during adoption | 22:32 |
| juiceme | as a sidenote, how many members do we ndd on the kickoffmeeting to vote, to make it by the book? is there a minimum number of founders? (since it seems not many want/can get to meetings...) | 22:32 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme: 7 | 22:32 |
| chem|st | we are defining new rules for an association, we are bound by rules, we did not touch anything and did not want to call a referendum as that takes 5 weeks, so we decided to go with 2 councils till the next elections | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | so how am I involved? | 22:33 |
| chem|st | would have been nice to have the current counil also be part of the eV council | 22:33 |
| juiceme | what will the roles of the councils be, so there's no clashing (even as the interim council is council + 2 extra) | 22:34 |
| juiceme | so there's actually one council inside the other | 22:34 |
| chem|st | same as council No1 | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | future maemo councils also may be 3 only | 22:34 |
| juiceme | yes, this is what I am asking, if the interim council can be the effective council +2 | 22:35 |
| chem|st | as we would need to have re-elections to have them become one body | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | according to binding rules for mc | 22:35 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: well that has to be changed | 22:35 |
| Win7Mac | ok, wait. probably it is ok to define a council of 3 for the interim time | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yo can't change this, unless you again run a referendum | 22:35 |
| Win7Mac | or even forever, set in the bylaws, if thats the only obstacle | 22:35 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: we can define a at least 3 forever but that is not what the idea was | 22:35 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: so you'd like to change nothing right? | 22:36 |
| Win7Mac | but we thought it'd be a good idea to have a council of 5 | 22:36 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I mustn't change anything. community does | 22:36 |
| juiceme | council of 3 is more agile, I guess that why it was originally decreed to be so | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | the rule is so we rather have a mc of three than no mc at all | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | there been months of public discussion about those rules | 22:38 |
| Win7Mac | the concern was more on the board-side to fill positions thats why we lowered that from 5-7 to 3 | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | and iirc 3 referenda | 22:39 |
| Win7Mac | want a referendum for that too? | 22:39 |
| chem|st | the board in acordance with the outgoing council can decide that there be only 3 councilors after 8weeks | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | it's not about what anybodz but community *wants* | 22:39 |
| chem|st | can we do a little game? | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | sorry, afk | 22:40 |
| Win7Mac | afaik, community never decided to have a board of 5-7, or? | 22:40 |
| juiceme | DocScrutinizer51, it has to be the council that decides wht the community wants (at least until a vote on any topic) | 22:41 |
| juiceme | since it is impossible to vote on any details | 22:41 |
| chem|st | imagine all contracts are signed, servers are owned by the eV - techstaff are member of the eV we have 30 members more or less active within the association, and a council of 3 people voted by the passiv members | 22:41 |
| chem|st | rules of election have been applied to council etc | 22:42 |
| juiceme | yes? | 22:43 |
| chem|st | now imagine, the board is fed and 50% of techstaff too a motion to close maemo is filed | 22:43 |
| chem|st | the wip-vote on this has the council but they are 2 people short | 22:44 |
| chem|st | so this is how a proper association works, the same applies actually for the Hildon Foundation but noone ever cared of joining the foundation officially as the council never defined how to join it | 22:45 |
| Win7Mac | well, we might opt for a council of at least 3 fixed in th bylaws, I have no problem with that | 22:46 |
| chem|st | I have a problem with that, either we have it like now, or 5 fixed but not 3 fixed. where is the deal? the rules say if there are no 5 councilors in the second attempt board and council decides how to proceed | 22:48 |
| chem|st | I don't know if the feeling of an eV is too much... seems noone gets that the eV is the community | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | next mc will get voted by the evry same rules written under same URL like past one. Either any other entity accepts those rules and MC resulting from them a their own body, or the the two entites will never be identical | 22:49 |
| Win7Mac | it may be more practical. Additionally, if it helps legitimating the "new" council - I'm totally fine | 22:50 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: I thought that is what we are not allowed to do?! | 22:51 |
| juiceme | is there some deep difference between a council of 5 and a council of 3, after all as things currently are it is difficult to get enough people intrested to volunteer. | 22:51 |
| Win7Mac | we can choose any number for council members | 22:51 |
| chem|st | well never mind, elections are in the association rules and can be rewritten without filing at court | 22:51 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: then why did you change that in the first place | 22:52 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st: because http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1411396&postcount=65 | 22:54 |
| juiceme | without being an expert in german law for associations (or any legal stuff at all) I am fairly sure we can change the numbers around at this point. | 22:54 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, yes | 22:55 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: we need to work on our communication, I though we are forced to write down a fixed number | 22:55 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, in the posting there's no reasoning _why_ specifically 5 in council and 3 in board :) | 22:55 |
| chem|st | juiceme: yeah thanks I do not find it either | 22:56 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: I asked you if we can have it as a "at least 3" | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | when rules of eV and MC rules are onehundred percent identical then MC can become eV council and no issues at all, we had exactly same issue with HiFo council | 22:56 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, sorry then that must have been a misunderstanding at some point | 22:57 |
| Win7Mac | it would be no problem at all to leave everything in that regard to what we have today | 22:58 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: the eV will replace the whole structure in the end, if you want to work on that do so... from the looks of now we are again in a misunderstanding, we can apply the rules as-is for now and nothing changes | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | last time HiFo adapted their bylaws and MC rulees seen minimal corrections confirmed by referendum | 22:58 |
| chem|st | as that is clear now, anything else? | 22:59 |
| juiceme | that's propably the most pressing point for now | 23:01 |
| Win7Mac | DocScrutinizer05, bylaws get adopted accordingly. Will you be happy camper, council-candidate and founder that signs the bylaws then? | 23:02 |
| Win7Mac | *a | 23:02 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | neither HiFo nor eV nor even MC itself can redefine what's MC. MC however can start a referemdum on any modified rules | 23:03 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: come to the point | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | Win7Mac: sure, why not. when the rules are identical then no problem with me at all | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | when eV decides to accept MC as their council, why should council be averse? | 23:04 |
| juiceme | I agree, that haas been my understanding all along. | 23:05 |
| chem|st | I'm out, later | 23:06 |
| juiceme | okay, see ya | 23:07 |
| juiceme | unless there's aob, I'll pass out also | 23:08 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | for HiFo it took enormous effort and changes in MC rules and in HiFo bylaws to finally make both enties one unified council. For an eV you should probably adopt the MC rules verbatim to avoid same trouble coming up again | 23:13 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | by adopting the rules verbatim, the eV council *is* the MC | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | except for inaugural which needs MC somehow become eV council, by whatever signature under a agreement | 23:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | or eV bylaws outright stating that the current MC will be the inaugural eV council, until next election which ahppens according to the unified eV/MC rules | 23:17 |
| Win7Mac | well, the procedure is not exactly like that. Formally, we are not excepting an existing group outside of the e.V., council will be voted for, just like it's done with the directors. elections are a requirement here | 23:26 |
| Win7Mac | but as long as it's the same people, there's no dissent | 23:26 |
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