| MentalistTraceur | BigRed announcement draft 3 sent. | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: fine with ,e (unless I come up with some suggestion after sleeping). For now consider it as approved by me for tomorrow 12:00 CET | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/,e/me/ | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually I think it's another one of your legendary masterpieces :-) | 00:22 |
| MentalistTraceur | Heh. Thanks. :) | 00:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | (What's CET's offset from UTC?) | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, one detail you could add: if HiFo actually thinks MCC!= HFC then HiFo failed to appoint a proper HFC for almost 6 months and is in a pinch now since no entity can appoint such a HFC | 00:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ah, UTC+1 hour. | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, right now we got CEDST, which is 2h ahead of UTC | 00:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ok. So you would like it posted at 10 UDT? | 00:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/UDT/UTC/ | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo proceeding for 6 months without a proper HFC was even worse than not having >=3 for >7 days | 00:26 |
| MentalistTraceur | I am about to resend with that pointed out more explicitly. | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: I don't mind you posting it tomorrow same time we got now, just saying I want time to think til tomorrow noon roundabout | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also just maybe woody finds a way to read that during next 14h or so | 00:29 |
| MentalistTraceur | Sent revision 4. | 00:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | Your addition has been added to the relevant in-depth-explanation footnote, along with the other reasons for why it makes no sense to claim this MCC isn't also the HFC. | 00:34 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, why do I still have a 'voice' status on this channel? Doesn't really seem necessary? | 00:35 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Shrug* | 00:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (voice status) becuase it would need me to get op status to remove voice status from you | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (#4) brilliant | 00:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ah, gotcha. | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | couldn't have worded it that sharp | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if this isn't bulletproof for all that any lawyer in BoD could come up with, then I dunno | 00:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | Alright, great. Now we just wait until qwazix and woody hopefully get a chance to read it, and what's the latest you think this can be sent out by? (There's a chance it might be mdidle of the night / early morning for me, | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OOOPS, you already need to say for *when* the elections will have to happen | 00:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | and if so I will need to make sure I am awake at the right time. | 00:41 |
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| MentalistTraceur | I.e. state the actual timetable? | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at very least ASAP, but better a certain point in time already | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which afaik is 4 weeks from now? | 00:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* | 00:43 |
| qwazix | I'm too tired now to do any real thinking about the draft (past midnight here) so please allow 12h for me to check it out in the morning | 00:43 |
| qwazix | In general it feels right though | 00:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, we already agreed that we won't proceed for at least 12h | 00:44 |
| qwazix | ok thanks | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | np | 00:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | If we're announcing it tomorrow, then that's at the earliest going out at ~22 UTC, | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we all need a second and a third proofreading of this | 00:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | Sorry, not 22 uts, | 00:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | 10 UTC. | 00:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | no unchristian hurries ;-) | 00:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | So that would be April 6, 10 UTC. So April 20th is when nominations would close. | 00:45 |
| Sysaxed | !info 0 | 00:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | April 27th would be the end of the contemplation period. | 00:46 |
| Sysaxed | oops | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 10UTC is already 2h earlier than earliest date I announced I would be able to give it another read | 00:46 |
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| MentalistTraceur | Well, then we need more than 12 hours of wait time. | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oops nm | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're right, 10UTC is 12CET, the time for which I said you can consider my vote as YEP, if I haven't mentioned otherwise until then. Still doesn't mean you need to hurry | 00:48 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* I'm just trying to get a timetable mentally straightened out. It's 21:48 UTC right now, yes? Add 12 and you get 33, modulo 24 and we have 9:48. | 00:49 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/48/49/ | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rather we should meet at IRC for a short chat and see if anybody has further thoughts, before you send out | 00:49 |
| MentalistTraceur | Round to nearest hour for 10 UTC earliest. | 00:49 |
| MentalistTraceur | Sure. | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you send it out 20UTC it's still pretty in time | 00:50 |
| MentalistTraceur | Just bear in mind, 10 UTC is 6 in the morning my time. | 00:50 |
| MentalistTraceur | So I probably won't be awake until a little while later. | 00:50 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ditto for Woody. | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | np | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 00:50 |
| MentalistTraceur | So it looks like we'll be sending it in the later half of April 6th by UTC time. | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one of the points why I don't want to hurry with it | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 00:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think it's a good practice to pastebin it and post a link here, so community can give feedback | 00:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's mature enough to not hurt when you do so | 00:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it's your text... | 00:53 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, the dates look like they will be: Announce 6th, Nominations close 20th, contemplation ends 27th, elections end May 4th? | 00:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds absolutely fair | 00:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I always thought we will have new council at early may | 00:53 |
| MentalistTraceur | I think pastebin-ing it is fine, if you want to pastepin it, I just personally am unmotivated to do so, but I wouldn't mind if someone else did. | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly I think we're first council that's so nicely on schedule for elections ;-) | 00:56 |
| MentalistTraceur | I'm gonna go add the election timetable dates to the draft, send it out as revision 5. | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll wait for #5, then do the pastebin dance | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so everybody stay tuned | 00:57 |
| MentalistTraceur | Does referendum voting take 7 days just like elections? | 01:01 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, I think so | 01:08 |
| qwazix | Referendum voting will be open for the same length of time as the council elections. | 01:08 |
| qwazix | from http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Election_process | 01:08 |
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| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* Okay, thought so. Thank you. | 01:09 |
| qwazix | Regardless of the time of posting I think deadlines should be 11:59UTC for the 20th 27th and 4th | 01:09 |
| qwazix | yw | 01:09 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well, the referendum deadlines separately either way (and it has to, as we need it to resolve before the elections) | 01:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | We actually end up with a bit of overlap - referendum voting starts, then election voting starts, then referendum ends 2 days later, followed by election ending sometime after that, looks like. | 01:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all timing frames mentioned in rules are considered minimum times (except for 6 months council term which is a maximum time obviously) | 01:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Shouldn't be a major issue though. | 01:14 |
| qwazix | s/11:59/23:59/ | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: please shift election dates 3 days back then | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't want overlaps | 01:16 |
| MentalistTraceur | Are we sure? | 01:16 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well, yeah. | 01:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we're not first council a week or two late on elections (if we are at all) | 01:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Cuz we only have to announce the elections within 5 months, not start the exact process precisely at the announcement date, right? | 01:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | What do you guys think we should shift then? | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 01:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Whole thing? | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except announcement | 01:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | K, draft 6 coming up with dates shifted. | 01:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all what could happen if we're actually late? next council will be legitimate anyway | 01:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only thing that could happen is our own term not legitimate anymore, for one week or two | 01:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we'd lose all the power during those two weeks :-O ;-P | 01:19 |
| MentalistTraceur | Shifted dates are thus: 9th, 23rd, 30th, and 7th. | 01:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | Referendum resolves on the 29th. | 01:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | So voting starts right after. | 01:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | On 30th | 01:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | Draft 6 is sent. | 01:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | community, please notice draft http://privatepaste.com/d5fafa9669 which we gonna announce officially tomorrow | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | feedback solicited | 01:26 |
| MentalistTraceur | I probably should put a link to the referendum's wiki page in the election time-table's first mention of the referendum, | 01:29 |
| MentalistTraceur | for those who spent the last few weeks without noticing it. | 01:29 |
| MentalistTraceur | What's funny is, pasting the draft on IRC isn't really all that different from just announcing the thing. | 01:30 |
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| MentalistTraceur | The only difference is that we're just announcing it to $community_members|filter_out_non_IRC_idling_community_members | 01:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | first, and then to the rest of the community within 24 hours. | 01:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Shrug* | 01:32 |
| * MentalistTraceur thinks wistfully of the days when he could still find time to play video games... | 01:35 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we already announced it | 01:35 |
| MentalistTraceur | ...life was simple and happy back then. | 01:35 |
| kerio | MentalistTraceur: if it makes you feel better, i spent most of this afternoon playing videogames and watching porn | 01:36 |
| kerio | feels good man | 01:36 |
| MentalistTraceur | Then Nokia fscked everything up by dropping their beautiful potential-ladden Linux-based line in favor of *shudder* Windows phone. | 01:36 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05 et al.: draft looks good to me | 01:37 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Depends on what you mean by announced. Announced it /here/ initially in-meeting, but only a small subset actually comes into meetings and chimes in. A slightly larger subset reads, whether live or the minutes/logs later. | 01:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | And while the entire populace of #maemo is much bigger than #maemo-meeting, it's still way less than that of tmo, I think. | 01:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, we're just doing "release early, release often" ;-) | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can't hurt to have feedback from some limited number of benevolent community eyes | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | before we go official with that text | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somebody might spot sth that slipped all of our attention | 01:40 |
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| MentalistTraceur | True. I'm just pointing out it ends up being 'tiered'. First to those who pay attention to meetings, then to those who view IRC in general, and only then the full announcement. It's not bad to solicit feedback by any means, I am just pointing out that IRC-presence isn't inherently the best criteria for deciding who gets the preview. | 01:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | I'm not even saying go do it differently - just discussing the matter abstractly-ish. | 01:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | Because I realize going to the community at large of the forum is virtually the same thing as an official announce. | 01:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | Which defeats the purpose of having people look at it in advance. | 01:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | I supposeI am merely getting at the idea that in my opinion, in a hypothetical more-ideal world, such a preview would be distributed by, say, priority given to those with the greatest mental acquity, rather than IRC presence. But I recognize we have no system for quantifying stuff like that, even in the upper echelons of scientific study, let alone here in these conditions. :) | 01:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | Rambling, in other words. I'm rambling. | 01:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | About things I think it's important to ramble about sometimes, but admittedly things that do not really change anything practical at this moment, except perhaps getting people thinking. *Shrug* | 01:47 |
| * MentalistTraceur has to put this N900 down, it needs charging. | 01:48 | |
| MentalistTraceur | So I will be AFK on/off. | 01:48 |
| MentalistTraceur | Sorry @ anyone who found the above the be gratuitous spam. | 01:48 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/above the/above to/ | 01:48 |
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| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: qwazix: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1334470 | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I've seen it | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't change much my notion of things | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oops, sorry, mixed it with some other stuff | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless my initial comment applies, doesn't change anything | 19:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | Do you or qwazix know how to post things as Council, btw? | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The exact terms about what this means are still under discussion.<< BWAHAHAHA | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: nope | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe this option got nuked thanks to one former MCC member abusing it | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll ask warfare about it | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (I actually already did, one or two days ago. No answer yet) | 19:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | In case I am unable to I know how to do it, I just wanted to know if either of you did. | 19:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | Afaik, it still works. | 19:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, DocScrutinizer05, qwazix sent an email saying he signed off on draft 7, so I think we're good to go. | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd clean up the timetable to be strictly monotone on dates, and include date of referendum started. Otherwise ok from me as well | 19:11 |
| MentalistTraceur | And while there is no rush, I feel like we might as well publish it sooner rather than later, because either way we'll be arguing with SD69 about this ad nauseum... | 19:11 |
| MentalistTraceur | What do you mean by "monotone" in this context? | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I won't argue with SD69 anymore, this has been proven futile | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dates stricly increasing sort order | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not like 24.4. 23.4. 2.5. 1.5. | 19:12 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, posting as council is done by posting on the council blog | 19:13 |
| qwazix | on maemo.org | 19:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and at top add one entry for date of referendum started | 19:13 |
| qwazix | a script crossposts on tmo automatically | 19:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi qwazix | 19:13 |
| qwazix | hi DocScrutinizer05 | 19:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: The point, as I said, is to make sure you know how to do it (in case I were to spontaneously become incapacitated. I don't need it explained to me, as you might recall, I've succesfully posted as council before.) | 19:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, hi. | 19:14 |
| qwazix | Sorry, rushed to answer as some time has passed | 19:14 |
| qwazix | and hi :) | 19:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, Joerg: I'm not sure I get what you mean. My dates are currently all written in YYYY-MM-DD, as standard. And they are in descending, soonest-to-latest order. | 19:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | I will add the referendum date. | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, then you maybe changed that in ver#7? | 19:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | They were always like that? | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you didn't | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2013-04-30: | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Board/Council Candidate Contemplation Period Ends | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Board/Council Election Voting Begins | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2013-04-29: | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Referendum Voting Ends | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | </quote> | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | <quote> | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2013-04-23: | 19:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Hmmm... *checks* | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nomination Period for Board/Council Ends | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Board/Council Candidate Contemplation Period Begins | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2013-04-22: | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | </quote> | 19:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Shit, that's a mistake then. | 19:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | Good catch. | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I mention it ;-) | 19:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | That's because they originally were in that order, then we shifted the election dates by three days, but I forgot to actually move the lines of text accordingly. | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I haven't checked back the dates against a calendar, neither claculated the period timespans and checked them back against applicable rules | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (I assumed exactly that) | 19:19 |
| MentalistTraceur | Unrelated: I am really tempted to make a post with a poll asking how many people sincerely believed when the HiFo bylaws were written, that the HiFo council was NOT supposed to replace MCC. | 19:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | I'm willing to bet the number will be 1. | 19:20 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, I don't know... | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/48bf0c9a73 | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (with timespans checked now and found they look good) | 19:25 |
| qwazix | while I am really curious too, I think this won't look too good | 19:25 |
| qwazix | It's better to leave it at that until >1 person objects to our position that MCC=HCC | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-04-06 18:03:27] <DocScrutinizer05> >>The exact terms about what this means are still under discussion.<< BWAHAHAHA | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://hildonfoundation.org/board-minutes-for-meeting-on-december-8th-2012/ | 19:26 |
| qwazix | hell of a long discussion :P | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | look, either HiFo accepted/appointed MCC=HFC, then no problem. Or they didn't appoint *any* HFC then we grab that position and vlame HiFo for epic failure to obey own bylaws | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, a freudean? flame/blame | 19:28 |
| qwazix | I have to go out for 1h or so, is there something I am needed? | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah, we're all 3 fine with MentalistTraceur's excellent draft | 19:29 |
| qwazix | ok if anything comes up ping me persistently and I'll pop up on the N900 | 19:30 |
| qwazix | bye | 19:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | There's no way to copy text from alpine's pico directly into Hildon Desktop's copy/paste buffer, is there? | 19:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | Bye qwazix! | 19:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | I just hope nothing incapacitating happens to woody. Because if it does, we're back to a two-man Board, and Rob will be very careful to pick a Director who won't be itching for re-elections. | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good luck to woody | 19:36 |
| MentalistTraceur | Or he won't pick anyone, because medical complications don't automatically remove a director, even if they are incapacitated. So we could end up with three man board where our strongest supporter doesn't come to meetings. | 19:36 |
| MentalistTraceur | Good luck to woody indeed. | 19:36 |
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| MentalistTraceur | Why dafuq do I have to enter a thread title just to /preview/ a post..? | 19:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Sigh* | 19:58 |
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| MentalistTraceur | I'm ready to post the announcement as Council and be done with it, btw. | 20:07 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: qwazix: any objections to firing the announcement off now? | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fire it! :-) | 20:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | to maemo.org/community/council blog | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix already implicitly agreed | 20:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Alright, firing. (To the Council blog, from where it will auto-post to tmo and mailing list, if everything works right.) | 20:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | I do not look forward to reading Rob's replies to this. | 20:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | http://maemo.org/community/council/elections_announcement/ | 20:20 |
| MentalistTraceur | It does not seem to have auto-duplicated to mailing list and forum yet, though. | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | good luck with it | 20:22 |
| MentalistTraceur | Oh dang it, I just realize Jim was a 100% clearly in favor of an election, not vaguely/indirectly in favor of one. | 20:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Stskeeps: Thank you. | 20:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, not a big deal that I forgot Jim's clear pro-board-reelection statement, just a minor difference in a footnote, but a bit unfortunate. | 20:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | A further development is Rob's latest post here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89438&page=4 | 20:28 |
| qwazix | back | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: that's what I meant by "yes, already seen it" | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | Oh. | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: Welcome back. | 20:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | Announcement just posted to Council blog. | 20:33 |
| qwazix | yep, I saw. It seems that scripts didn't do their job yet though | 20:34 |
| MentalistTraceur | Yeah. | 20:34 |
| qwazix | (which probably means they never will) Let's wait another 20m and post on tmo and ML | 20:35 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* | 20:36 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, looks like it's time to repost to mailing list and forum manually. | 21:03 |
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| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: Manually posting to mailing list and tmo. | 21:28 |
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| MentalistTraceur | Mailing list manual repost done. | 21:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | Aaaand... tmo manual repost done. | 21:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Sigh* | 21:39 |
| * MentalistTraceur braces for the legalese crapfest that comes later. | 21:39 | |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, million thanks for this good work | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | +1 | 21:51 |
| MentalistTraceur | Happy to do my part guys. | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89711 missing signature >>MT, council chair, on behalf of maemo community council" | 22:38 |
| MentalistTraceur | I figured I've made so many [Council] posts lately, that it wasn't necessary. | 22:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | But I can add it if you'd like. | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think for an "official2 letter it's mandatory | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even better: | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "MT, council chair, on behalf of maemo community council / Hildon Faoundation Council" | 22:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | What about just "On behalf of Council"? | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't say which council | 22:43 |
| qwazix | On behalf of the Maemo Administrative Commitee | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh! | 22:43 |
| qwazix | (sic) | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no such thing | 22:43 |
| qwazix | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1334502#post1334502 | 22:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | That's the point. _The_ Council. | 22:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | We already emphasize in the post itself that we are both Council's. | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | Freedom Fighters | 22:45 |
| qwazix | lol | 22:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | Re: Administrative Committee, qwazix is mocking Rob throwing that term around. | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wouldn't go into arguments with a lawyer | 22:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I also wouldn't invent further new terms to obfuscate the original terms' meanings | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MCC and HFC are established terms referring to same entity for everybody except Rob | 22:47 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, I was just joking | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | his hairsplitting nitpicking wanking on how to interprete the bylaws in wass no community member *ever* thought of shouldn't lure us into trying to compete with him on his own playground | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/wass/ways/ | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's _always_ the spirit of a law that counts. In more advanced democracies you got experts publishing explanatory essays on how laws are meant. And you got supreme courts to ask for further refinement when a law interpretation causes ambiguities | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | here we see one guy claiming to be all in one | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and fighting his view of things against literally everybody else who all got a very different (and for normal people more sane and obvious) notion on the meaning of the laws | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in former ages this art been called sophism | 22:53 |
| qwazix | exactly… | 22:53 |
| MentalistTraceur | What's most annoying for me is that, if I had the time, I know he could be demolished in argument. I have no doubt if I had the time to peruse Philladelphia and U.S.A. case law, there would be clear precedent for the position we have taken. | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway *I* am memebr of MCC/HFC, not "the council" nor "Administrative Committee" | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and by "Maemo Community Council / Hildon Faoundation Council" we clearly define the rules that *made* us exist | 22:55 |
| MentalistTraceur | But you are a member of the only Council, (thus by English grammar rules, "the" Council), which, if you get specific, happens to be MCC and HFC. | 22:56 |
| MentalistTraceur | But alright, I'll go edit it to use that wording. | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | google for "council" | 22:56 |
| qwazix | ^^ pointless | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I bet you get 150 mio hits | 22:56 |
| MentalistTraceur | Irrelevant to my point, only Council in this context. | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please don't start sophism | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | leave that shit to Rob | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we are Maemo Community Council, NOT "THE council" | 22:57 |
| qwazix | Are we really discussing this? | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no way | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's nuttin to discuss | 22:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | Don't label it sophism. If we're throwing that label around, I see your problem with "on behalf of the Council" vs. your version to be just as much sophistry. | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not only Rob, now even you guys make me feel like killing myself | 22:58 |
| qwazix | Both ways to write it mean exactly the same thing in the context we are talking about so please get over with it | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, this entity been Maemo Community Council, and you're supposed to use that term. I don't approve any other term getting used by you on behalf of MCC/me | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | period | 22:59 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 goes out puking a bit | 23:00 | |
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| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, if you're that against me saying "on behalf of the Council", nothing stops you from explicitly making a post stating that disagreement with the wording. I must get other things done now. I'll be checking my IRC client on/off as I get the chance. | 23:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | many thanks for inventing new leete ways to sign official stuff :-S | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and sure I will go bitch at your idiocy now as well as Rob's - fine >:-( | 23:19 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, please don't do that | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hey, maybe we should fix a date for a meeting, so we can discuss correct way to sign official Maemo Community Council announcements, since it seems there's a need to | 23:21 |
| qwazix | the way MT has signed off is perfectly fine | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I hate it seeing MT trying to outsmart Rob | 23:21 |
| qwazix | It's not that he invented a new way, we've been calling ourselves council for ever | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the entity been "Maemo Community Council" since ever | 23:22 |
| qwazix | I see your rationale for calling it with the full name and I would be fine with that too, but it's not the first time we've signed off "on behalf of council" | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no other name ever been officially used nor even approved | 23:23 |
| qwazix | It's not another name for fuck's sake it's just the shorter term! | 23:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | This was the way the Referendum announcement was signed: [Posted by Mentalist Traceur on behalf of Council, credit to qwazix for writing the actual post text.] | 23:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it's the first time we announce something highly official which I suggested from very beginning we get that shit *right* not to offer vectors for guys like Rob to argue it was moot | 23:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | And this is how we signed the inquiry to community about whether Board should be reelected. | 23:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | [This post is made on behalf of everyone actively in the current Council] | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the rationale "no I won't use the official name because you asked me to do it and I think it's uncool" is so.... | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you know what? I don't think your way to serve council is much better than Rob's way to serve HiFo and community | 23:27 |
| qwazix | you are getting out of line | 23:27 |
| MentalistTraceur | It's not because you asked me to do it and it's uncool. The rationalle is that A. it's a shorter way of saying the same thing, B. it doesn't assert anything that we haven't already asserted, C. signing with both Council titles explicitly is no less likely to get crap from Rob, contrary to your don't offer vectors for guys like Rob to argue point (in fact, possibly more likely - he ... | 23:28 |
| MentalistTraceur | ... could be all "no right to sign as HiFo council, this is fraud because you can't sign as a non-existent body, etc"). | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not at all - chair is meant to sum up and execute requests from whole entity, not decide and overrule on silly little facts that would be easy to fix | 23:28 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, you are not whole entity in this case though | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I'm a part of it | 23:28 |
| qwazix | and I hate to say it but majority thinks otherwise in this particular case | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I asked for a proper signature, and I git bullied out on it | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, you did a poll? | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | know what? GTFO then | 23:29 |
| qwazix | no I didn't do a poll, me and MT are okay with signing off simply as council | 23:30 |
| qwazix | this is a majority of 2/3 | 23:30 |
| qwazix | no poll needed | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably me stepping down from council makes everybody#s life easier | 23:30 |
| qwazix | you realize that you are stepping down because of the signature of one post is council and not maemo community council | 23:31 |
| qwazix | and how ridiculous that sounds | 23:31 |
| qwazix | I think you just have to chill out a bit and think about it first | 23:32 |
| qwazix | I do want you here, you are needed. If that matters. But we can't always agree | 23:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | Bullying is an amalgam of harrasment and abuse, with serious psychological and emotional repercussions. What you have is disagreement, not bullying. We haven't insulted you, or threatened you, or persistently harrassed you. We disagreed on a signature. And no, our lives would not get any easier if you step down. I second qwazix's last line. | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no I'm pondering to step down to let you do your silly little games with Rob instead of me | 23:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not willing to get overruled by my own chair, with retrograde affirmation of a never actually happening discussion about the topic by the 2nd member of entity | 23:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on a topic that's too silly to summarize here | 23:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since there's no sound reason whatsoever to invent new non-approved way to do stuff just when it matters most | 23:37 |
| qwazix | have a good night | 23:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even if there was any such reason, you opted to ignore my concerns and rather than try to find an unanimous notion on it between all three members you claim you decided to overrule me | 23:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | There is no invention, this is closer to how we have signed official posts made by chair on behalf of Council in the past. And the affirmation is not retrograde - I only decided to not edit in your wording after qwazix already indicated that he didn't mind the wording as given. | 23:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | And your concerns were not ignored. They were replied to and/or found unconvincing. | 23:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Good night qwazix.) | 23:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine with me, do further MCC decisions without me. So you don't need to overrule/ignore my concerns | 23:41 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 can't help to notice the irony in parallels between Tim's resignation and a possible stepdown of himself | 23:45 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | A: please to <silly litle edit> B: I don't mind C(hair): I'm too lazy / find it coller the way I posted it. So let's announce unanimous decision of *my* way to do things. A, you're free to publicly post a minority report | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, and on >>There is no invention, this is closer to how we have signed official posts<< - this by no means is a proof against *you* inventing it nevertheless. Or can you quote any *prior* council chair signing off with "the council"? If yes then quote please | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | next I expect to see HiFo signing their stuff with "the foundation", and Nokia signing with "the company" | 23:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and mt signing his stuff with "the chief" ? | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "the lord"? | 23:54 |
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