IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-06-29

*** Pali has quit IRC00:13
*** Estel_ has quit IRC06:30
*** Estel_ has joined #maemo-meeting06:39
*** lbt has quit IRC12:08
*** lbt has joined #maemo-meeting12:09
*** lbt has joined #maemo-meeting12:09
*** vi__ has joined #maemo-meeting19:51
vi__good evening.19:51
vi__don't mind me, I will just take a seat at the back here.19:52
Woody14619Settle down... Still another hour before everyone shows up. :)19:53
vi__not 1800 GMT?19:54
Jaffa1800 UTC/GMT is an hour from now19:56
JaffaIt's currently 1656 GMT19:56
JaffaIn the UK, it's 17:56, but we're on BST (GMT+0100)19:56
vi__insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=760020:00
vi__insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=760020:00
vi__ffs wtf20:00
vi__shit.  wrong window.20:01
vi__sorry guys.20:01
* Woody14619 ramz a module into vi__20:01
* vi__ hangs head in shame.20:01
Stskeepsour memories shalt not be compressed in here20:03
*** SD69 has joined #maemo-meeting20:56
*** vi__ has quit IRC20:56
Woody14619You've reached IT Helpdesk.  Have you turned it off and turned it back on again?21:00
*** NielDK has joined #maemo-meeting21:00
Woody14619Now 3 of 5...21:01
NielDKhello all21:01
Woody14619We'll wait a few more for the other two.  Not sure if Ivan will make it this week, as he's on holiday.21:01
Woody14619SD69, if you have not checked e-mail in the past hour, you may want to, as I've proposed a topic for the meeting today there.21:04
NielDKemail just came from Ivan21:05
Woody14619Interesting. :S  So we will weigh his response in on that if he's not able to attend...21:07
Woody14619so, let's start.21:09
Woody14619#start Maemo Council Meeting21:09
Woody146191> CA firestorm, and solutions21:09
Woody146192> OBS progress and status21:09
Woody146193> Movement on self-sustaining21:09
Woody146194> AI review, other topics.21:09
NielDKhi rib21:09
Woody14619hi. :)  So, agenda look reasonable?21:10
Woody14619Topic 1:  CA firestorm21:10
SD69i haven't had a chance to look at latest topics21:10
Woody14619I'm sure we've all be following this... even if we're a little behind, not a lot has changed, obviously.21:11
Woody14619I think one clear item that has been agreed on in general is that Estel_ has been a bit harsher than most of us would like in recent dealings w/ the community.21:12
Woody14619There have been calls, by at least 3 Council now in as many weeks, for his removal as chair.21:12
Woody14619Given that Estel has expressed he was willing to give up chair if Council agreed on the matter (see June 8th minutes)  I propose we take such a vote, if not this meeting than next.21:14
*** vi__ has joined #maemo-meeting21:14
NielDKi would say this is at minimum what is requested by people in tht thread21:15
Woody14619I move we vote today.  Given that if the 3 of us are of like mind, and I think we are, it would be a majority.21:15
NielDKand I believe handling this will mostly help settling the storm21:15
Woody14619I therefore vote for removal of Estel_ as chair.  NielDK, SD69, your votes?21:15
SD69You have my vote as well21:16
Woody14619Then it's done.21:16
Woody14619We should consider election of a new chair, at latest by next Council meeting.21:16
Woody14619We will discuss that on the mailing list (or here after meeting?) and move next meeting if there's a desire and need for the position to be filled.21:17
Woody14619Topic 1b>  Proposal for CA issues.21:17
Woody14619As noted in my e-mail earlier today, I would like to make the following proposal, with the backing of Council.21:18
SD69The last two councils did not have Chairs21:18
JaffaAnd that was a bad thing.21:19
Woody14619I propose we do one (or more) of the following items, in order to quell the concerns of the community about unfairness in the CA selection process:21:19
SD69Hi jaffa21:19
NielDKgiven the state i would say this is utterly important21:19
JaffaIn what way was it *not* a bad thing?21:19
JaffaSee, for example, the lack of coordination of the election - which is the one official role the Chair has (although, other responsibilities probably include organising the meetings, making sure they're run & documented etc. - unless the council decides to have a Secretary as well)21:20
SD69let's not get into past issues21:21
Woody14619Jaffa, I have in essence taken the role of secretary.21:21
JaffaWoody14619: Noted.21:21
Woody14619As noted by my creation and posting of meeting minutes.21:22
Woody14619I do think it would be best to have a Chair, but that can and should be discussed in a longer format than Council meeting, IMHO.21:22
Woody14619At best, we should table it until topic 4 and/or the other 2 Council arrive.21:23
SD69yes, we should have discussion on it21:23
Woody14619Noted... We will add this into topic 4.21:24
Woody14619Back to topic 1b>  Proposal for CA issues.21:24
Woody146191> That we request of Quim that two or three devices specificly for Council, which would then make those recipients ineligable (retroactivly) for CA.  The CA devices then would be allocated based on the CA votes and input from before.21:24
NielDKdid you all read Ivans comments?21:25
Woody146192> Failing that, there has been a movement in the community to purchase devices for some members.  I propose we ask Quim about using Council as a pass through to allow purchase at a discounted rate if that option is available (as it has been in the past).21:25
Woody14619Neildk: I did, but I still want to make the proposal.21:25
SD69I think it's quite awkward to ask Nokia for more devices21:26
SD69Notwithstanding the questions raised about the process, I think the CA distribution was fine and people who didn't get a device will have to live with it21:27
Woody14619Ivan had similar reservations, as do I, but Quim did note that it may be an option before CA started (when we clarified rules).21:27
SD69I haven't seen any email from Quim21:28
NielDKi agree, probably wont happen for the reasons we ask. But perhaps the second choise, giving discounts would pass21:28
Woody14619I understand that, and agree to some degree.  My ask isn't assigning devices, just that we ask as Council if it's possible.21:28
Woody14619The situation has changed there enough that option 1 may no longer be an option.21:29
Woody14619sd69: I'm not refering to an e-mail, I'm refering to Quim's statements at the June 8th meeting.21:29
Woody14619I would be happy to open the vote as a split vote, or table the topic until the next meeting.21:30
SD69woody14619: those statements were quite general21:30
Woody14619To be clear, as I am proposing it, I am pro on both topics and would vote yes to both.  (As I may not be here next week to vote.)21:30
SD69I think we should move on...21:31
Woody14619sd69: I agree, and were pre-implosion.  So as I said, one or both may not be an option.  I'm simply requesting that we ASK.21:31
Woody14619OK.  Topic is tabled for next week then?  I trust it will be visited in my absense next week.21:32
Woody14619Topic 2: OBS progress and status21:33
Woody14619I've been attending OBS meetings, and trying to arrange things there.21:33
NielDKi vote that we can ask if a discounted price can be given for the devices purchsed through donations. But, i fibd it unlikely to hapoen21:33
Woody14619One item that needs work is documentation of the OBS and differences between Autobuilder and OBS,  OBS/N9 and OBS/N900, and QTCreator for OBS/N900.21:34
SD69It appears Nokia has allocated 3 servers for us to use in the future21:34
Woody14619That is my understanding as well, though the source of that has been fuzzy.21:34
Woody14619There has been movememnt on Nokia's side to consolidate services into those 3 servers, which are all to housed with Nemian, as I understand it.21:35
Woody14619I'm unsure if that's including the OBS servers Niels has been working with or not though.21:36
SD69I suspect it's 3 total21:36
Woody14619On the documenting end, MartinK has offered to donate time to do documentation.  I've been trying to follow up with that, but as expected Niels has been quite busy of late, so that's slow going.21:37
Woody14619ZogG has finished documentation on OBS/N9 and QTCreator, but will not be doing an OBS/N900 specific version.21:38
SD69Is there something that we need to decide about OBS?21:38
Woody14619Well, I would really like someone there for the next meeting to make sure we are aware of any road blocks and/or issues.21:39
Woody14619As I may not be able to attend (and I've been the only one going), I'd like someone to go in my stead.21:39
SD69I can attend, but no detailed knowledge of OBS21:40
Woody14619I have limited knowledge as it is.  I want more to be sure if they have any asks of Council someone is there to capture and represent on issues.21:40
SD69next OBS meeting I mean21:40
Woody14619Thanks. :)21:41
Woody14619So, next topic?  Topic 3> Movement on self-sustaining.21:41
Woody14619wonko posted to tmo and has stirred up things there in a very positive way I think.21:41
SD69I think funding is main issue on self-sustaining21:42
Woody14619A lot of it is things we're already moving on.21:42
Woody14619Agreed, but I also think having a legal entity to tie the funding to is essential.21:42
SD69Sure, legal entity will cost approx. $500 in USA21:43
Woody14619Especially given the recent mistrust raised in some segments via CA.21:43
SD69That is just government fees.  I will do paperwork for free21:43
SD69I think legal entity should have newly elected governing body21:43
JaffaWith a longer term than the Council21:44
Woody14619That all sounds quite good, including Jaffa's comment.21:44
SD69a longer term, with means to remove nonperforming persons21:44
Woody14619So we need to raise funds, prepare an election (of how many?  3? 5? 7?), and get that going.21:45
SD69Quim or Kate did actually float possibility of permitting maemo trademark to be used by community21:45
JaffaLegal entity would need a tighter constitution than the current Council21:45
Woody14619I think we also need community buy-in on that, though it seems to already be there via several sources.21:45
JaffaWoody14619: Well, it depends on what the scope/purpose of this "entity" *is*21:46
SD69I would draft by-laws and have community comment and approval in advance of governing body election21:46
Woody14619Agreed, Jaffa.  There are several templates to use for that.21:46
Woody14619SD69: That would be the best move.  Are you volunteering for that, or promoting it as a suggestion?21:47
JaffaSD69: Agreed21:48
Woody14619That being in-line with my general concept of "present options, not open questions".21:48
SD69I'll drafty by-laws (USA)21:49
SD69Any chance of 2013 sponsors?21:50
Woody14619As for funding, how do we want to so this?21:50
Woody14619gah.. lag.21:50
SD69I think we have to start asking for community contributions.21:51
JaffaIs the USA really the best option, or the only one on the table due to SD69 being the only volunteer to organise it?21:51
NielDKI have a few places I will ask.21:51
JaffaAgain,  it needs to be clear what the contributions are for...21:51
NielDKbesides the financial part. What about hardware. Software and hosting facilities?21:52
Woody14619I don't think USA based is a bad thing...  But then I'm somewhat partial.21:52
SD69USA is quick to form legal entity and no VAT21:53
Woody14619My understanding is that TMO is currently hosted in the US, and the others are hosted?  Where?  EU I think, right?21:53
JaffaWoody14619: Well, primarily I'm thinking of things like the Nintendo/emulator case and similar legal jurisdiction as Nemein (with whom the entity would have contracts)21:53
Woody14619SD69: Both true options.21:53
SD69legal entity is separate from hosting issue21:53
Woody14619Jaffa, true, but then you'll have that that no matter where the entity is.21:54
JaffaSD69: If the legal entity is responsible for the content on, it doesn't matter where it's hosted.21:54
JaffaWoody14619: Indeed, so being in a DMCA-less territory and in the EU where cross-border legal codes apply might be easier.21:54
SD69I'm sorry that's not correct, at least for IPR21:54
JaffaIt also needs to be investigated as to whether *any* jurisdiction has limits on who can be directors of the entity.21:55
JaffaBecause if the US doesn't let non-US citizens be directors/owners/representatives of the entity, or similarly for the EU, we'd have a problem.21:55
SD69USA (Delaware and Pennsylvania) are quite liberal on directors21:55
Woody14619Jaffa: the US policies on that are quite lax.21:55
SD69Jaffa:  Agreed, that would be a problem, but that's not the circumstance.21:56
SD69I think Qt project is incorporated in Delaware21:56
Woody14619I has assumed this would be Delaware based, to be honest, if US based. Most major US corps are there.21:56
Woody14619So... end question:  How do we procede on this?21:57
Woody14619Do we need community input on where/how to form this entity?21:58
SD69For our situation, we're looking at reducing costs and limitations on our governance.  We will be small - less than $50K budget probably21:58
JaffaProbably not. Just a good proposal with FAQ etc.21:58
SD69I think community would be more interested in where everything is hosted...21:59
SD69A USA entity can be hosted in EU/UK21:59
JaffaMore "*how* everything is hosted"21:59
JaffaBut I don't believe you're suggesting changing that from Nemein any time soon are you?22:00
Woody14619As can it's banking, yes?22:00
NielDKright, I have more places to ask for hosting: based in Denmark, Sweden ir UK22:00
SD69Jaffa:  I am not22:00
SD69Bust cOBS shared with Mer, might be where Mer is now22:00
Woody14619Jaffa, I think the end result will be us contracting with Nemein, but looking at options for sub-protions may happen as well.22:00
SD69Does EU banking necessitate VAT?22:01
Woody14619Moving repos to a Debian based NFP and such...22:01
JaffaIt's a sales & services tax. Not a banking transaction tax.22:01
Woody14619I think it may if we're going for NFP status in some cases though.  Just as you need to get a NFP id here in the US?22:02
NielDKjaffa: that is correct, but EU busbesses would need a VAT for recieving part. For deduction tax purposes22:03
NielDKbuisnesses :)22:03
*** vi__ has quit IRC22:04
JaffaNielDK: Only if they're charged VAT.22:04
Woody14619Let's look into that.  For now, intial startup, the costs from that... I'm willing to throw some $$ at that myself, and I'm sure a few others will to.  I think setting up a donation point before we have the legal entitiy would be problematic though.22:04
SD69We could have commitments in hand, but not a transfer of actual $$22:06
Woody14619Agreed.  To be clear, I'm pledging $250, as of now, toward this for startup costs.22:07
Woody14619If need be, I can commit quite a bit more, but I figure half the startup is a good start. :)22:07
Woody14619I have no issue thinking people will be fine with donating to the entity and having past fees for setup deducted post-fact.22:09
Woody14619one moment... work. :P22:10
NielDKagree, -as long as this will be stated22:10
SD69I think long-term funding is more difficult - we have no working budget to start from22:11
SD69I think we have to ask Nokia/Nemein to give us where we are now so we have a starting point22:11
NielDKi believe i can fibd some sources that would be willing to engage22:12
Woody14619I agree.  Knowing their base would be a good starting point.22:12
Woody14619But keep in mind, some of what Nokia pays for are things we may not need to pay for long term.22:12
Woody14619So, SD69, would you like some of us to take portions of this (eg looking into EU tax/NFP laws)?22:13
NielDKwhat anount are we looking fir?22:13
SD69Sure, I'll do US and someone else can do EU22:13
Woody14619I also think there's more potential in the community than some susspect.22:13
NielDKi will look at EU22:13
Woody14619One budgeting plan I know from other groups I've worked with is the concept of small recurring payments.  ($5/month, etc).  Not a burden to each person paying, but collectivly, it adds up quick and provides a sustainable and predictable base.22:15
SD69I have to leave soon22:15
Woody14619A-Infos uses this model for podcast hosting and redist, and does well.22:15
Woody14619As do I.22:15
Woody14619OK, so, we've each got things to do....  Lets coordiante when we can and touch status again next week.22:16
Woody14619Quickly back to topics:  Topic 4>  AI items and misc.22:16
Woody14619I spoke with X-Fade, and it looks like the bug in the auto-garage register system is fixed (missed a service in their list to automate)22:16
Woody14619qt-components is a manual move when we need it for now, so as it's needed, ping him. :)22:17
Woody14619I'll attempt to get meeting minutes out today before I'm off.  One of you may have to post it monday though if I'm absent.22:17
Woody14619Any other topics?  (And do we need to revisit Chair converstaion, or do we table that for next week?)22:18
NielDKnote me for that task22:18
Woody14619I will.  Thanks again Niel.22:18
Woody14619I feel kinda bad, being on vacation next week, as I can't take many items. :P22:19
Woody14619But will make up for it next time. ;)22:19
Woody14619Anything else?  If not, we can table the discussion about Chair for next meeting and be done?22:19
Woody14619OKey then. :)  Thanks all.22:20
Woody14619#end Maemo Council meeting.22:20
NielDKhappy holiday Woody :)22:20
Woody14619Thanks again to all who were here, including Jaffa.  We always welcome input, and wished more people would attend and show interest.22:21
NielDKso true22:21
Woody14619As noted, I may not be here next week, though I will try. I will also reply to emails as I can, but will probably not have the time or bandwidth to touch TMO.22:22
Woody14619bye, have a good weekend (and a happy July 4th for those states side)22:22
NielDKno worries22:23
NielDKbye for now22:23
*** NielDK has quit IRC22:23
*** Woody14619 has quit IRC22:25
*** Woody14619 has joined #maemo-meeting22:35
*** Woody14619 has quit IRC22:35
*** Woody14619 has joined #maemo-meeting22:35
*** SD69 has quit IRC22:37
*** Woody14619 has quit IRC22:38
*** vi__ has joined #maemo-meeting23:15
vi__where can I find the logs of todays meeting?23:16
vi__~povbot log23:18
vi__~povbot help23:18
*** vi__ has left #maemo-meeting23:36

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!