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| vi__ | good evening. | 19:51 |
|---|---|---|
| vi__ | don't mind me, I will just take a seat at the back here. | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | o/ | 19:52 |
| Woody14619 | Settle down... Still another hour before everyone shows up. :) | 19:53 |
| vi__ | orly? | 19:54 |
| vi__ | not 1800 GMT? | 19:54 |
| Jaffa | 1800 UTC/GMT is an hour from now | 19:56 |
| Jaffa | It's currently 1656 GMT | 19:56 |
| Jaffa | In the UK, it's 17:56, but we're on BST (GMT+0100) | 19:56 |
| vi__ | insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=7600 | 20:00 |
| vi__ | oops | 20:00 |
| vi__ | insmod /lib/modules/current/ramzswap.ko disksize_kb=7600 | 20:00 |
| vi__ | ffs wtf | 20:00 |
| vi__ | http://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard/user_vis_awesome_kbdmapping | 20:00 |
| vi__ | shit. wrong window. | 20:01 |
| vi__ | sorry guys. | 20:01 |
| * Woody14619 ramz a module into vi__ | 20:01 | |
| * vi__ hangs head in shame. | 20:01 | |
| Stskeeps | our memories shalt not be compressed in here | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:03 |
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| Woody14619 | You've reached IT Helpdesk. Have you turned it off and turned it back on again? | 21:00 |
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| Woody14619 | Now 3 of 5... | 21:01 |
| NielDK | hello all | 21:01 |
| Woody14619 | We'll wait a few more for the other two. Not sure if Ivan will make it this week, as he's on holiday. | 21:01 |
| Woody14619 | SD69, if you have not checked e-mail in the past hour, you may want to, as I've proposed a topic for the meeting today there. | 21:04 |
| NielDK | email just came from Ivan | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | Interesting. :S So we will weigh his response in on that if he's not able to attend... | 21:07 |
| NielDK | right | 21:08 |
| Woody14619 | so, let's start. | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | #start Maemo Council Meeting | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | Agenda: | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | 1> CA firestorm, and solutions | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | 2> OBS progress and status | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | 3> Movement on self-sustaining | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | 4> AI review, other topics. | 21:09 |
| SD69 | hi | 21:09 |
| NielDK | hi rib | 21:09 |
| NielDK | rob | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | hi. :) So, agenda look reasonable? | 21:10 |
| NielDK | yes | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | Topic 1: CA firestorm | 21:10 |
| SD69 | i haven't had a chance to look at latest topics | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | I'm sure we've all be following this... even if we're a little behind, not a lot has changed, obviously. | 21:11 |
| NielDK | true | 21:11 |
| Woody14619 | I think one clear item that has been agreed on in general is that Estel_ has been a bit harsher than most of us would like in recent dealings w/ the community. | 21:12 |
| Woody14619 | There have been calls, by at least 3 Council now in as many weeks, for his removal as chair. | 21:12 |
| Woody14619 | Given that Estel has expressed he was willing to give up chair if Council agreed on the matter (see June 8th minutes) I propose we take such a vote, if not this meeting than next. | 21:14 |
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| NielDK | i would say this is at minimum what is requested by people in tht thread | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | I move we vote today. Given that if the 3 of us are of like mind, and I think we are, it would be a majority. | 21:15 |
| NielDK | and I believe handling this will mostly help settling the storm | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | I therefore vote for removal of Estel_ as chair. NielDK, SD69, your votes? | 21:15 |
| NielDK | agree | 21:16 |
| SD69 | You have my vote as well | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | Then it's done. | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | We should consider election of a new chair, at latest by next Council meeting. | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | We will discuss that on the mailing list (or here after meeting?) and move next meeting if there's a desire and need for the position to be filled. | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | Topic 1b> Proposal for CA issues. | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | As noted in my e-mail earlier today, I would like to make the following proposal, with the backing of Council. | 21:18 |
| SD69 | The last two councils did not have Chairs | 21:18 |
| Jaffa | And that was a bad thing. | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | I propose we do one (or more) of the following items, in order to quell the concerns of the community about unfairness in the CA selection process: | 21:19 |
| SD69 | Hi jaffa | 21:19 |
| SD69 | perhaps | 21:19 |
| NielDK | given the state i would say this is utterly important | 21:19 |
| Jaffa | In what way was it *not* a bad thing? | 21:19 |
| Jaffa | See, for example, the lack of coordination of the election - which is the one official role the Chair has (although, other responsibilities probably include organising the meetings, making sure they're run & documented etc. - unless the council decides to have a Secretary as well) | 21:20 |
| SD69 | let's not get into past issues | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa, I have in essence taken the role of secretary. | 21:21 |
| Jaffa | Woody14619: Noted. | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | As noted by my creation and posting of meeting minutes. | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | I do think it would be best to have a Chair, but that can and should be discussed in a longer format than Council meeting, IMHO. | 21:22 |
| NielDK | true | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | At best, we should table it until topic 4 and/or the other 2 Council arrive. | 21:23 |
| SD69 | yes, we should have discussion on it | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Noted... We will add this into topic 4. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | Back to topic 1b> Proposal for CA issues. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | 1> That we request of Quim that two or three devices specificly for Council, which would then make those recipients ineligable (retroactivly) for CA. The CA devices then would be allocated based on the CA votes and input from before. | 21:24 |
| NielDK | did you all read Ivans comments? | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | 2> Failing that, there has been a movement in the community to purchase devices for some members. I propose we ask Quim about using Council as a pass through to allow purchase at a discounted rate if that option is available (as it has been in the past). | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | Neildk: I did, but I still want to make the proposal. | 21:25 |
| SD69 | I think it's quite awkward to ask Nokia for more devices | 21:26 |
| SD69 | Notwithstanding the questions raised about the process, I think the CA distribution was fine and people who didn't get a device will have to live with it | 21:27 |
| Woody14619 | Ivan had similar reservations, as do I, but Quim did note that it may be an option before CA started (when we clarified rules). | 21:27 |
| SD69 | I haven't seen any email from Quim | 21:28 |
| NielDK | i agree, probably wont happen for the reasons we ask. But perhaps the second choise, giving discounts would pass | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | I understand that, and agree to some degree. My ask isn't assigning devices, just that we ask as Council if it's possible. | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | The situation has changed there enough that option 1 may no longer be an option. | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I'm not refering to an e-mail, I'm refering to Quim's statements at the June 8th meeting. | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | I would be happy to open the vote as a split vote, or table the topic until the next meeting. | 21:30 |
| SD69 | woody14619: those statements were quite general | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | To be clear, as I am proposing it, I am pro on both topics and would vote yes to both. (As I may not be here next week to vote.) | 21:30 |
| SD69 | I think we should move on... | 21:31 |
| NielDK | yes | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I agree, and were pre-implosion. So as I said, one or both may not be an option. I'm simply requesting that we ASK. | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | OK. Topic is tabled for next week then? I trust it will be visited in my absense next week. | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | Topic 2: OBS progress and status | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | I've been attending OBS meetings, and trying to arrange things there. | 21:33 |
| NielDK | i vote that we can ask if a discounted price can be given for the devices purchsed through donations. But, i fibd it unlikely to hapoen | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | One item that needs work is documentation of the OBS and differences between Autobuilder and OBS, OBS/N9 and OBS/N900, and QTCreator for OBS/N900. | 21:34 |
| SD69 | It appears Nokia has allocated 3 servers for us to use in the future | 21:34 |
| Woody14619 | That is my understanding as well, though the source of that has been fuzzy. | 21:34 |
| Woody14619 | There has been movememnt on Nokia's side to consolidate services into those 3 servers, which are all to housed with Nemian, as I understand it. | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | I'm unsure if that's including the OBS servers Niels has been working with or not though. | 21:36 |
| SD69 | I suspect it's 3 total | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | On the documenting end, MartinK has offered to donate time to do documentation. I've been trying to follow up with that, but as expected Niels has been quite busy of late, so that's slow going. | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | ZogG has finished documentation on OBS/N9 and QTCreator, but will not be doing an OBS/N900 specific version. | 21:38 |
| SD69 | Is there something that we need to decide about OBS? | 21:38 |
| Woody14619 | Well, I would really like someone there for the next meeting to make sure we are aware of any road blocks and/or issues. | 21:39 |
| Woody14619 | As I may not be able to attend (and I've been the only one going), I'd like someone to go in my stead. | 21:39 |
| SD69 | I can attend, but no detailed knowledge of OBS | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | I have limited knowledge as it is. I want more to be sure if they have any asks of Council someone is there to capture and represent on issues. | 21:40 |
| SD69 | next OBS meeting I mean | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks. :) | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | So, next topic? Topic 3> Movement on self-sustaining. | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | wonko posted to tmo and has stirred up things there in a very positive way I think. | 21:41 |
| SD69 | I think funding is main issue on self-sustaining | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | A lot of it is things we're already moving on. | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | Agreed, but I also think having a legal entity to tie the funding to is essential. | 21:42 |
| SD69 | Sure, legal entity will cost approx. $500 in USA | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | Especially given the recent mistrust raised in some segments via CA. | 21:43 |
| SD69 | That is just government fees. I will do paperwork for free | 21:43 |
| SD69 | I think legal entity should have newly elected governing body | 21:43 |
| Jaffa | With a longer term than the Council | 21:44 |
| Jaffa | (IMHO) | 21:44 |
| NielDK | ;) | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | That all sounds quite good, including Jaffa's comment. | 21:44 |
| SD69 | a longer term, with means to remove nonperforming persons | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | So we need to raise funds, prepare an election (of how many? 3? 5? 7?), and get that going. | 21:45 |
| SD69 | Quim or Kate did actually float possibility of permitting maemo trademark to be used by community | 21:45 |
| Jaffa | Legal entity would need a tighter constitution than the current Council | 21:45 |
| Woody14619 | I think we also need community buy-in on that, though it seems to already be there via several sources. | 21:45 |
| Jaffa | Woody14619: Well, it depends on what the scope/purpose of this "entity" *is* | 21:46 |
| SD69 | I would draft by-laws and have community comment and approval in advance of governing body election | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | Agreed, Jaffa. There are several templates to use for that. | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: That would be the best move. Are you volunteering for that, or promoting it as a suggestion? | 21:47 |
| Jaffa | SD69: Agreed | 21:48 |
| Woody14619 | That being in-line with my general concept of "present options, not open questions". | 21:48 |
| SD69 | I'll drafty by-laws (USA) | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | Excelent. | 21:50 |
| SD69 | Any chance of 2013 sponsors? | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | As for funding, how do we want to so this? | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | gah.. lag. | 21:50 |
| SD69 | I think we have to start asking for community contributions. | 21:51 |
| Jaffa | Is the USA really the best option, or the only one on the table due to SD69 being the only volunteer to organise it? | 21:51 |
| NielDK | I have a few places I will ask. | 21:51 |
| Jaffa | Again, it needs to be clear what the contributions are for... | 21:51 |
| NielDK | besides the financial part. What about hardware. Software and hosting facilities? | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | I don't think USA based is a bad thing... But then I'm somewhat partial. | 21:52 |
| SD69 | USA is quick to form legal entity and no VAT | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | My understanding is that TMO is currently hosted in the US, and the others are hosted? Where? EU I think, right? | 21:53 |
| Jaffa | Woody14619: Well, primarily I'm thinking of things like the Nintendo/emulator case and similar legal jurisdiction as Nemein (with whom the entity would have contracts) | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: Both true options. | 21:53 |
| SD69 | legal entity is separate from hosting issue | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa, true, but then you'll have that that no matter where the entity is. | 21:54 |
| Jaffa | SD69: If the legal entity is responsible for the content on maemo.org, it doesn't matter where it's hosted. | 21:54 |
| Jaffa | Woody14619: Indeed, so being in a DMCA-less territory and in the EU where cross-border legal codes apply might be easier. | 21:54 |
| SD69 | I'm sorry that's not correct, at least for IPR | 21:54 |
| Jaffa | It also needs to be investigated as to whether *any* jurisdiction has limits on who can be directors of the entity. | 21:55 |
| Jaffa | Because if the US doesn't let non-US citizens be directors/owners/representatives of the entity, or similarly for the EU, we'd have a problem. | 21:55 |
| SD69 | USA (Delaware and Pennsylvania) are quite liberal on directors | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa: the US policies on that are quite lax. | 21:55 |
| SD69 | Jaffa: Agreed, that would be a problem, but that's not the circumstance. | 21:56 |
| SD69 | I think Qt project is incorporated in Delaware | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | I has assumed this would be Delaware based, to be honest, if US based. Most major US corps are there. | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | So... end question: How do we procede on this? | 21:57 |
| Woody14619 | Do we need community input on where/how to form this entity? | 21:58 |
| SD69 | For our situation, we're looking at reducing costs and limitations on our governance. We will be small - less than $50K budget probably | 21:58 |
| Jaffa | Probably not. Just a good proposal with FAQ etc. | 21:58 |
| SD69 | I think community would be more interested in where everything is hosted... | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | Agreed. | 21:59 |
| SD69 | A USA entity can be hosted in EU/UK | 21:59 |
| Jaffa | More "*how* everything is hosted" | 21:59 |
| Jaffa | But I don't believe you're suggesting changing that from Nemein any time soon are you? | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | As can it's banking, yes? | 22:00 |
| NielDK | right, I have more places to ask for hosting: based in Denmark, Sweden ir UK | 22:00 |
| SD69 | Jaffa: I am not | 22:00 |
| SD69 | Bust cOBS shared with Mer, might be where Mer is now | 22:00 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa, I think the end result will be us contracting with Nemein, but looking at options for sub-protions may happen as well. | 22:00 |
| SD69 | Does EU banking necessitate VAT? | 22:01 |
| Jaffa | No. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | Moving repos to a Debian based NFP and such... | 22:01 |
| Jaffa | It's a sales & services tax. Not a banking transaction tax. | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | I think it may if we're going for NFP status in some cases though. Just as you need to get a NFP id here in the US? | 22:02 |
| NielDK | jaffa: that is correct, but EU busbesses would need a VAT for recieving part. For deduction tax purposes | 22:03 |
| NielDK | buisnesses :) | 22:03 |
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| Jaffa | NielDK: Only if they're charged VAT. | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | Let's look into that. For now, intial startup, the costs from that... I'm willing to throw some $$ at that myself, and I'm sure a few others will to. I think setting up a donation point before we have the legal entitiy would be problematic though. | 22:04 |
| NielDK | yes | 22:05 |
| SD69 | We could have commitments in hand, but not a transfer of actual $$ | 22:06 |
| Woody14619 | Agreed. To be clear, I'm pledging $250, as of now, toward this for startup costs. | 22:07 |
| Woody14619 | If need be, I can commit quite a bit more, but I figure half the startup is a good start. :) | 22:07 |
| Woody14619 | I have no issue thinking people will be fine with donating to the entity and having past fees for setup deducted post-fact. | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | one moment... work. :P | 22:10 |
| NielDK | agree, -as long as this will be stated | 22:10 |
| SD69 | I think long-term funding is more difficult - we have no working budget to start from | 22:11 |
| SD69 | I think we have to ask Nokia/Nemein to give us where we are now so we have a starting point | 22:11 |
| NielDK | i believe i can fibd some sources that would be willing to engage | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | I agree. Knowing their base would be a good starting point. | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | But keep in mind, some of what Nokia pays for are things we may not need to pay for long term. | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | So, SD69, would you like some of us to take portions of this (eg looking into EU tax/NFP laws)? | 22:13 |
| NielDK | what anount are we looking fir? | 22:13 |
| SD69 | Sure, I'll do US and someone else can do EU | 22:13 |
| NielDK | amont | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | I also think there's more potential in the community than some susspect. | 22:13 |
| NielDK | i will look at EU | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | One budgeting plan I know from other groups I've worked with is the concept of small recurring payments. ($5/month, etc). Not a burden to each person paying, but collectivly, it adds up quick and provides a sustainable and predictable base. | 22:15 |
| SD69 | I have to leave soon | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | A-Infos uses this model for podcast hosting and redist, and does well. | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | As do I. | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | OK, so, we've each got things to do.... Lets coordiante when we can and touch status again next week. | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | Quickly back to topics: Topic 4> AI items and misc. | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | I spoke with X-Fade, and it looks like the bug in the auto-garage register system is fixed (missed a service in their list to automate) | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | qt-components is a manual move when we need it for now, so as it's needed, ping him. :) | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | I'll attempt to get meeting minutes out today before I'm off. One of you may have to post it monday though if I'm absent. | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | Any other topics? (And do we need to revisit Chair converstaion, or do we table that for next week?) | 22:18 |
| NielDK | note me for that task | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | I will. Thanks again Niel. | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | I feel kinda bad, being on vacation next week, as I can't take many items. :P | 22:19 |
| NielDK | :) | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | But will make up for it next time. ;) | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | Anything else? If not, we can table the discussion about Chair for next meeting and be done? | 22:19 |
| SD69 | OK | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | OKey then. :) Thanks all. | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | #end Maemo Council meeting. | 22:20 |
| NielDK | happy holiday Woody :) | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks again to all who were here, including Jaffa. We always welcome input, and wished more people would attend and show interest. | 22:21 |
| NielDK | so true | 22:21 |
| Jaffa | np | 22:21 |
| SD69 | bye | 22:22 |
| Woody14619 | As noted, I may not be here next week, though I will try. I will also reply to emails as I can, but will probably not have the time or bandwidth to touch TMO. | 22:22 |
| Woody14619 | bye, have a good weekend (and a happy July 4th for those states side) | 22:22 |
| NielDK | no worries | 22:23 |
| NielDK | bye for now | 22:23 |
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| vi__ | hello? | 23:15 |
| vi__ | where can I find the logs of todays meeting? | 23:16 |
| vi__ | ~povbot log | 23:18 |
| vi__ | ~povbot help | 23:18 |
| vi__ | ~povbot | 23:18 |
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