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| brolin_empey | Oksana: KotCzarny: I do not know if it matters in this case but a 1-GB SD card is SDSC (retronym for the original SD standard, before SDHC), which is less common now compared to SDHC and SDXC cards. | 11:31 |
|---|---|---|
| brolin_empey | DocScrutinizer05: Well? Did you see my reply? | 11:32 |
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| Maxdamantus | Pretty sure it doesn't matter. At a block level, they're all the same (they just differ in maximum size and what filesystems are officially supported), and at a hardware level, they should all be forwards/backwards-compatible. | 12:25 |
| Maxdamantus | The only reason that you might get SD card compatibility issues afaik is due to software that simply doesn't support large SD devices. | 12:27 |
| Maxdamantus | but that's not an issue with Linux. | 12:27 |
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| Wikiwide | Yowl!... Fxtec Pro1 has run out of battery. Shut down due to low battery, optimistically. I know charger works, I have used it on weekend right after unpacking. | 13:11 |
| Wikiwide | But it is still deeply unsettling to see Pro1 "dead", unconscious, showing no sign of life. Not even a LED indicator of charging. | 13:12 |
| KotCzarny | serial | 13:16 |
| KotCzarny | erm, wrong keyboard, sorry | 13:16 |
| Wikiwide | Lawlz. One keyboard per IRC channel? | 13:17 |
| sicelo | :) | 13:18 |
| Wikiwide | Still no sign of life. Anybody else had such a situation? | 13:23 |
| Maxdamantus | Could always try blowdrying the battery. | 13:25 |
| Maxdamantus | (to heat it up) | 13:25 |
| Wikiwide | Maxdamantus: What is that, and how? | 13:26 |
| Wikiwide | It has been fifteen minutes already, Do please cease playing dead, my lady... | 13:26 |
| Wikiwide | I haven't even seen a possibility of taking battery out, the exterior doesn't look like anything is removable. | 13:27 |
| Maxdamantus | Dunno about the Fxtec, but I know that with iPhones, if the battery dies, you can sometimes get them to boot again by heating the battery to raise its voltage. | 13:27 |
| Maxdamantus | when I did that with an iPhone I didn't take the battery out, just heated its back. | 13:28 |
| drathir | good old n900 with their emergency charging mode ^^ | 13:29 |
| Wikiwide | Yes... And Nokia N900 has removable battery. Quite neat. Especially considering that its tiny secondary battery is rusty ruin. | 13:31 |
| Wikiwide | Should replace that. | 13:32 |
| drathir | Wikiwide: more like pointing to its abber led blinking mode when it try to charge battery with extra slow style in compare to normal charging... | 13:33 |
| drathir | abber/amber* | 13:33 |
| drathir | Wikiwide: its soo useful when You really stress te battery... for example other symbian phones unable to recover from such low battery power... | 13:35 |
| drathir | also R.I.P. BB(aka old RIM)... ['] | 13:37 |
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| Wikiwide | What is going on with BlackBerry? Weren't they making super-secure Android phones lately? | 13:44 |
| Wikiwide | I have tried to heat up the Pro1 (I think I will pronounce it like Prawn), I think it has warmed up. No LED indicator though. | 13:45 |
| drathir | Wikiwide: their contract with manufacture of phones soon will expire which mean no more phones... | 13:45 |
| Wikiwide | Who will be manufacturing phones with BlackBerry patents? I am interested in their unusual slider, Visa-style, which displays either full qwerty, or just one row. | 13:46 |
| drathir | Wikiwide: no reneval mean no more phones probably... which is sad, bc rim have good ones... | 13:57 |
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| brolin_empey | Maxdamantus: If you are stuck using old versions of software then you may be unable to use newer standards such as SDHC and SDXC. | 14:13 |
| Maxdamantus | brolin_empey: the software really doesn't care about SDHC vs. SDXC, unless you're talking about the official filesystems you're meant to use on them. | 14:16 |
| Maxdamantus | brolin_empey: you can obviously just put whatever filesystem you want on either. | 14:16 |
| Maxdamantus | The software *might* care about the size of the card, if it's silly software. | 14:16 |
| Maxdamantus | (iirc, SDXC is meant to use exFAT rather than FAT32, so in some sense SDXC implies exFAT, which is obviously not supported by some software) | 14:18 |
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| Maxdamantus | (but again, any card that comes with exFAT can just be written over with FAT32) | 14:18 |
| brolin_empey | I thought the reason that some old devices cannot use SDHC as opposed to what became known as SDSC is because a software change is required to support SDHC even if the software that must be changed is not considered as part of the OS. I am not using the term “firmware” in this case because the boundary between software and firmware is not clear. | 14:20 |
| brolin_empey | I meant SDSC versus SDHC and later, i.e., SDXC. | 14:22 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm pretty sure they're all backwards- and forwards-compatible. | 14:22 |
| Maxdamantus | It's like connecting different ethernet cards. It doesn't matter that one card is gigabit and the other is fast ethernet, since they're designed to be backwards/forwards-compatible; the gigabit card can still use the same transfer mode as the fast ethernet card. | 14:25 |
| Maxdamantus | likewise, a new SD card can still transfer SDIO packets with an old SD host and a new SD host can still transfer SDIO packets with an old SD card. | 14:27 |
| brolin_empey | They are backward compatible but not always forward compatible because some old devices, such as some digital still cameras, some embedded device my colleague has, and I think the Medallion Classic (SA2410) ARM Linux platform of my company, can only use SDSC, not SDHC and later, because these devices use old software that does not have the change required to use SDHC. Maybe if the old software was carefully written to avoid assumptions that became invalid | 14:27 |
| brolin_empey | beginning with SDHC then no change to the software is required but I do not know the specifics in this case. | 14:27 |
| Maxdamantus | Has your colleague tried reformatting the card to FAT32? An SDHC card will surely come with an exFAT filesystem which will obviously not work in an old camera. | 14:28 |
| Maxdamantus | If there is a software limitation, it will surely either be that, or simply the size of the card. | 14:29 |
| Maxdamantus | There are arguably practical but also possibly business reasons to assume that a card will not be bigger than a certain size. | 14:30 |
| brolin_empey | The device my colleague has is some embedded development tool, not a camera. SDHC cards do not always come with exFAT. Maybe you meant SDXC in this case. | 14:30 |
| Maxdamantus | Maybe. | 14:31 |
| Maxdamantus | Again, if there's some incompatibility, it will be because of the size of the card or the filesystem. | 14:32 |
| Maxdamantus | (the filesystem can be rewritten, but you obviously can't change the size of a card) | 14:32 |
| brolin_empey | The TSCM-283 embedded computer platform of my company works with SDHC but not SDSC because the person who did the software for this platform never took the time to add support for SDSC because the cost of a >=4-GB SD card is low. | 14:32 |
| Maxdamantus | Right, so it just doesn't support cards bigger than 4GB. | 14:33 |
| Maxdamantus | It doesn't have to do with the SDHC/SDXC/SDSC label. | 14:33 |
| Maxdamantus | It might be worth trying to just partition the card to only have a 4GB partition. | 14:34 |
| brolin_empey | No, it means the computer only works with 4-GB or larger SD cards because those are SDHC cards. The computer does not work with 2-GB and smaller SD cards because those are SDSC cards. | 14:35 |
| Maxdamantus | Apparently the "SDHC" standard includes cards as small as 2GB. | 14:36 |
| brolin_empey | It does not matter in practice because if you need to use an SDSC card then you can just make a raw clone of the SDSC card onto an SDHC card and the resulting SDHC card will work even if only the beginning of the card is used. | 14:36 |
| Maxdamantus | Okay, that's equivalent to just creating a smaller partition, as I said it might be worth trying. | 14:37 |
| Maxdamantus | This just proves the point that the compatibility issue is not to do with the SDSC/SDHC/SDXC standards but just to do with what sizes the software has been written to support. | 14:38 |
| Maxdamantus | Linux will obviously have some inherent size limit for block devices, but it's probably something like `2^63 - 1` bytes, so noone cares about that limit. | 14:38 |
| Maxdamantus | The SDSC/SDXC/SDHC labels might be useful for typical consumers to check official compatibility, but the actual software will only ultimately care about the size of the card. | 14:39 |
| drathir | as i know sdhc and sdxc and newer version are not upward compatibile also need a controller support... | 14:40 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm pretty sure that's not true. | 14:41 |
| drathir | in meaning sdxc reader should fine support all older versions, but sd reader in rare cases could support sdhd, but no support for sdxc... | 14:41 |
| drathir | sdhd/sdhc* | 14:41 |
| Maxdamantus | eg, I have a Sansa Clip Zip, which does not officially support SDXC, but the only limitation there is just in the software that normally runs on it. If you run Rockbox (as I do), that software is written such that it doesn't have an arbitrary 4 GiB limit, so I can use a 64 GB card on it. | 14:42 |
| drathir | in short host support determine which card able to read... if host support sd most likely will have problems supprot sdhc... | 14:43 |
| Maxdamantus | Given that SD controllers just pass SDIO packets between the OS and the card, that's a bit like saying that an ethernet NIC might not support SCTP. | 14:45 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: and Your theory have issue in my opinion, bc every systems allow Yu to create fat32 partition there is nothing against that, and even oldest devices should supprt sdxc just need format it internaly before use, but them dont... | 14:45 |
| Maxdamantus | Sure, in theory, someone could make a NIC that handles TCP/UDP packets specially, but that would be stupid. | 14:45 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: and ofc not even take under consideaton there card speeds just ommit that completly just clean at all usage of card under the device... | 14:48 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: according to your theory, the N900 doesn't support cards bigger than 32 GB, since >32 GB means SDXC, which requires exFAT. | 14:49 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: any 64 GB SD card afaik will come with exFAT, therefore it is not possible to use a 64 GB card on an N900? | 14:50 |
| Maxdamantus | atm, I have a 128 GB SD card in my N900. I would never pay any attention to possible compatibility issues with cards, because I'm very confident that there are no compatibility issues with cards on N900. You just need to be able to reformat the card. | 14:50 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: if n900 have controler available to support sdxc it shuld works... | 14:51 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: if dont it will not... | 14:51 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: every controller supports SDXC cards. | 14:51 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: it's only higher-level software that might not support it. | 14:51 |
| Maxdamantus | The N900 obviously wasn't designed to support SDXC, since it has no exFAT support. | 14:52 |
| Maxdamantus | but as I said above, the controller can talk to any SD card, so as long as you reformat it with FAT32 or ext3 or something, it will work. | 14:52 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: if device reader suport sdxc will support all older devices, if device reader support sd only will not support sdxc in rare cases could less or more stable support sdhc... | 14:54 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: its not filesystem the issue, bc theoreticaly every card You able format in fat32 which could mean no matter of card type it would works in any device reader (ofc include there fat32 system limitations itself)... | 14:56 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: you're not meant to have to do that according to SDXC. SDXC mandates exFAT support. | 14:56 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: the filesystem *is* the issue. The issue is either the filesystem or the card size. The filesystem can be overwritten. | 14:57 |
| Maxdamantus | and Linux 2.6.28 practically doesn't care about the card size. | 14:57 |
| Maxdamantus | unless maybe once we have petabyte cards or something. | 14:57 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: yes but only bc logical fat32 limitations wich apply to sizes of such sdxc cards... if Yu fine with sacrifice max available size them should works in any host devices as well... | 14:58 |
| Maxdamantus | Yes, that's what I've been saying. | 14:59 |
| Maxdamantus | But I've also been saying that in general if you have sensible software, it will work with practically any size card. | 14:59 |
| Maxdamantus | so if you're just limited to what Linux supports (which is the case on N900), then there practically is no limit; all SD cards that have been made so far are compatible. | 15:00 |
| Maxdamantus | and unless they break the current pattern of block-level (but not filesystem-level) compatibility, it will work with all cards in the future. | 15:01 |
| drathir | i tell clearly about host device readers support where if the host device reader not matter it should support all the cards on every devices if them get formatted in fat32 no matter if sd/sdhc/sdxc type... | 15:01 |
| drathir | and there apply fat32 restrictions ofc... but card still should work on every host reader if formated in fat32... | 15:02 |
| Maxdamantus | Right, I can't remember what the FAT32 limit is, but that is certainly reachable. Once cards are too big to support FAT32, you can just use another filesystem instead. | 15:03 |
| Maxdamantus | I just use ext4 on the SD card in my N900. | 15:03 |
| Maxdamantus | We're not going to reach the ext4 limit anytime soon. | 15:03 |
| drathir | and ofc could be wrong, but really not saw sd reader which support sdxc by myself... | 15:04 |
| Maxdamantus | (the size limit of FAT32 is 2 TiB) | 15:04 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: i would personally guessing n900 have at least reader internally support of sdhc... | 15:05 |
| Maxdamantus | (the size limit of ext4 is 1 EiB) | 15:05 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: SDHC is just the standard it supports, because SDHC only involves FAT32. | 15:06 |
| Maxdamantus | drathir: but I can definitely confirm that SDXC cards work on N900. | 15:06 |
| Maxdamantus | note that any card that is 64 GB or bigger is either SDXC or SDUC, not SDHC. | 15:07 |
| Maxdamantus | (again, I'm currently using a 128 GB card, which falls into the category of "SDXC") | 15:09 |
| KotCzarny | might be that sdxc is more of a marketing brand than standard itself? | 15:09 |
| KotCzarny | similar to centrino that requires few points fullfilled | 15:09 |
| Maxdamantus | I don't think it's so much to do with marketing, but just a compatibility determining system for non-technical people. | 15:10 |
| KotCzarny | which means marketing | 15:10 |
| Maxdamantus | I feel like it probably just confuses technical people. | 15:11 |
| KotCzarny | technical folks talk other language | 15:11 |
| Maxdamantus | For technical people, the device should basically just say "supports SD cards up to size X using filesystems Y, Z" | 15:11 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: where could apply same rule where sd card readers in some cases able support sdhc in fat32 filesystem ofc... and if n900 card reader allow support of sdhc cards in vary ratio could be possible read sdxc fat32 formated cards... but really would doubt if n900 have only sd card reader capable it will read sdxc, bc that any old device phone/cameras/ etc have as well support of sdxc if have just a sd reader onboard... | 15:12 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: yea im aware we all time stick within fat32 limitations which devices have internal support only... | 15:14 |
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| sicelo | btw, i love this guy for doing this :p | 17:08 |
| sicelo | pkg-config libhildondesktop-1 --variable=hildonhomedesktopentrydir | 17:08 |
| sicelo | /usr/share/applications/hildon-home | 17:08 |
| sicelo | user@devuan-droid4:~$ pkg-config libhildondesktop-1 --variable=hildondesktoplibdir | 17:08 |
| sicelo | ah, wrong paste | 17:08 |
| sicelo | http://simonweckert.com/googlemapshacks.html <-- this guy | 17:08 |
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| buZz | sicelo: nice #maemo-leste advertizing there :D | 17:29 |
| buZz | hehe | 17:29 |
| bencoh | :] | 17:30 |
| KotCzarny | darn, that pinephone is heavy | 17:31 |
| KotCzarny | like, offensive-weapon-heavy | 17:32 |
| buZz | nice | 17:32 |
| buZz | 20Ah battery? | 17:32 |
| buZz | 180 to 200 grams | 17:33 |
| KotCzarny | dont know yet | 17:33 |
| KotCzarny | nice, preloaded with postmarketOS | 17:33 |
| buZz | droid4 is 185gram | 17:33 |
| KotCzarny | no os, just a bunch of factory tests | 17:34 |
| bencoh | woah, heavier than n900 | 17:36 |
| bencoh | (roughly the same, but) | 17:36 |
| buZz | n900 is 181g | 17:36 |
| buZz | yeah | 17:37 |
| KotCzarny | 2800mAh | 17:37 |
| buZz | bencoh: its the weight of all that extra ram :P | 17:37 |
| buZz | KotCzarny: removable? | 17:37 |
| KotCzarny | yup | 17:37 |
| buZz | thats hawt | 17:37 |
| buZz | its not on droid4 | 17:37 |
| KotCzarny | i wonder if they used some popular formfactor | 17:38 |
| KotCzarny | quectel modem is big too | 17:38 |
| KotCzarny | like 1/3 of battery | 17:38 |
| bencoh | it is on droid4 as well, just a bit of a pain | 17:39 |
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| KotCzarny | umkay, device turns on and works, gotta have fun with it once i finish my other projects | 17:43 |
| sicelo | congrats KotCzarny :) | 17:51 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 17:52 |
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