IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2018-12-18

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brolin_empeyx86 computer hardware question (hurrian?): Can this model of computer drive an external display at at least 3840×2160?  I have been reading about Intel hardware on Wikipedia but cannot find a clear answer.  Yes, I realise that having only 4 GiB of main memory sucks in practice in 2018.  I do not have this model of computer, my friend does and I am curious to know if his computer is04:08
brolin_empey UHD-capable.04:08
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brolin_empeyRegarding my ccTLD question: apparently .au has it too:05:07
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KotCzarnywhy uboot isnt installed on n900 by default?11:42
bencohbecause it's not really "needed" by default I'd say11:45
KotCzarnyalso, do i remember right that initrd part of nand is unused?11:46
MaxdamantusSeems so. Mine's just full of 0xFFs11:59
KotCzarnyseems like a perfect fit for kernel11:59
KotCzarnywhen uboot is installed11:59
Maxdamantusu-boot can already fit alongside the stock 2.6.28 kernel within the 2 MiB kernel partition.12:01
KotCzarnyeven better12:01
MaxdamantusPersonally, I'd rather manage kernels within a filesystem.12:02
MaxdamantusUse as little space for non-filesystem stuff as possible.12:02
MaxdamantusSince once you're managing stuff within a filesystem, you don't have to mess around with provisioning particular amounts of space for particular things.12:03
MaxdamantusThere's no hard limit for the size of some kernel or some initramfs or something.12:03
Maxdamantusand of course juggling things around on a file system is far safer than juggling things around within some flash partition.12:05
KotCzarnybtw. for act dead non-broken fs is required or is there some minimal initrd glued to kernel?12:06
MaxdamantusYou start by writing the new kernel into a new file, instead of writing over an existing kernel and hoping your system doesn't lose power in the middle.12:06
bencohKotCzarny: iirc non-broken fs is required12:06
KotCzarnywell, initfs can hold 'safe' kernel or even kernel+minimal rescue12:06
KotCzarnyho hum12:06
bencohyeah, that's silly12:06
KotCzarnykinda pointless to have separate kernel nand space then12:07
bencohthe whole act dead concept is silly tbh, but ...12:07
Maxdamantusand typical "install-kernel" (or whatever it's called) scripts have been just renaming the old kernel to something like "vmlinuz.old" for ages, so you can still boot the old kernel if the new one doesn't function correctly.12:07
KotCzarnydarn, where is the maemo's summer of code to do all the nice things12:08
Maxdamantusalso with a filesystem if you're using flash, you should get the wear levelling implemented by the filesystem.12:09
Maxdamantuswhereas if you're writing over a particular mtd partition all the time, you're doing exactly what you're not meant to do with flash.12:10
KotCzarnyyeah, nand is perfect for bootloader + kernel + rescueos (optional)12:11
KotCzarnyand maybe some nonvolatile configuration data12:11
Maxdamantus"non-volatile configuration" sounds like an oxymoron to me.12:12
KotCzarnythere is runtime configuration too12:12
KotCzarnywhich is gathered/generated on boot12:12
Maxdamantusto add to the wear levelling point: even if your mtd partition is not written frequently, simply withholding that space from something that actually does do proper wear levelling (such as ubifs) is counterproductive.12:15
MaxdamantusSince the more space the filesystem has to play with, the more effective it will be able to perform wear levelling.12:15
MaxdamantusThat's why you're supposedly not meant to fill up SSDs.12:15
* Maxdamantus wonders when consumer MTD drives will become a thing.12:25
MaxdamantusI wouldn't imagine it would be never.12:25
KotCzarnysdcards/ssds took the role12:25
MaxdamantusIt should be technically superior.12:25
KotCzarnytechnical superiority doesnt make it successful12:25
KotCzarnysee slc vs anything else12:26
MaxdamantusI'm not familiar with particular memory types, but aiui that's a matter of cost/benefit.12:27
Maxdamantuswith MTD drives, it's just a matter of having sufficiently useful software (filesystems), rather than hardware manufacturing techniques.12:28
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Maxdamantusatm we have SSDs that emulate block devices using flash, and then filesystems which rely on block devices.12:28
Maxdamantusit would obviously be more efficient to have filesystems designed directly for flash, so the filesystem itself is performing wear levelling.12:29
MaxdamantusNo need to do periodic TRIMs or some other indication that blocks are unneeded.12:30
bencohyet people are used to their <insert favourite> filesystem, so ...12:30
MaxdamantusYes, filesystems are somewhat difficult to replace, but they do eventually get replaced.12:30
MaxdamantusMaybe sometime someone will make an SSD that can be put into either a managed (block emulation) or unmanaged (MTD) mode.12:31
Maxdamantusand maybe some future filesystem will be designed to work in either mode.12:32
Maxdamantusnote: Apple has only recently replaced HFS+ with AFS or whatever it's called as the default filesystem in their new OSes.12:33
KotCzarnyso, ubifs for everyone12:34
KotCzarnyyet, windoze crowd requires ntfs, which results in the need of firmware level wearlevelling12:36
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Maxdamantusntfs will be replaced at some point.12:54
Maxdamantusor even if it's not, I'm sure Microsoft has the capabilities to create an MTD variant of ntfs.12:55
KotCzarnyor just move everything to 'cloud'12:56
MaxdamantusI guess the proprietary drive towards MTD would probably be in phones.12:57
KotCzarnyunless some big vendor starts seeing benefit of it, unlikely12:57
MaxdamantusSince they're already relatively locked down in terms of filesystem access; iOS already switched to APFS without anyone really noticing.12:57
MaxdamantusThere's obviously benefit in it. It's just a matter of when people are going to put in the effort.12:58
KotCzarnyapple crowd is rarely technical12:58
KotCzarnyas long their magic boxes dont break, they wont notice even if their devices started shipping with soul eating daemons12:59
MaxdamantusWhatever your thoughts are of Apple in particular, the phone market has obviously been tending towards things like greater computing efficiency: achieving more while using less power, so they can make their devices with smaller batteries.13:00
KotCzarnydo they?13:00
KotCzarnymore raw power, yes13:00
KotCzarnybut efficency?13:00
* KotCzarny laughs heartily13:00
MaxdamantusThe software might not be more efficient, but the phones overall are.13:01
KotCzarnydid you notice that every new os requires more ram/cpu than previous iteration?13:01
Maxdamantuseven taking into account the software.13:01
KotCzarnycompare kitkat to nougat/oreo13:02
KotCzarnyfor starters13:02
KotCzarnybah, even updating google services is enough to kill 1gb ram device with slower storage13:02
MaxdamantusDunno what that comparison is meant to signify .. I prefer Oreo over Kit-kat .. never had Nougat.13:03
KotCzarnyit just exemplifies that newer os revisions eat more resources13:03
KotCzarnyoften needlessly13:03
MaxdamantusRight, like Wirth said.13:03
KotCzarnysure, you get more functionality here and there, but at the price of more resources eaten13:04
Maxdamantusbut which performs better at browsing typical webpages? Maemo/N900 or iOS 11/iPhone X (dunno if those are recent)13:04
KotCzarnygiven same ram amount available?13:05
MaxdamantusNo. Given the two options.13:05
KotCzarnyapples to oranges13:05
KotCzarnywe gen beefier devices, but with more hungry software that mitigates the gain13:05
Maxdamantus(btw, Wirth as in Niklaus Wirth, or "Wirth's law")13:06
KotCzarnyand beefier devices enable sloppy software13:07
KotCzarnywe have hundred megabytes apps to process 20kb file into bitmap13:08
KotCzarnyand most of that bitmap is filled with shit (ads)13:10
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KotCzarnyor useles junk13:11
MaxdamantusAnyway, I completely agree that software is getting more bloated, but that doesn't *prevent* the fundamental parts of software improving.13:13
MaxdamantusIt does mean the improvements slow down though.13:13
KotCzarnywe got tech, tech was new and shiny and tiny, lean and mean. then came the parasites and tech got boggled down13:14
MaxdamantusThere are still projects that are on the right path of making it possible to do things more efficiently.13:15
Maxdamantuseg, being able to use something like Rust for creating efficient programs instead of C.13:15
KotCzarnythats because parasites didnt find out rust yet13:16
Maxdamantus(not that either language prevents you from creating bloated software of course, but both allow you to create non-bloated software, and I think one allows you to do it in a more maintainable way)13:16
KotCzarnytrust me, you can write bloat in any language :>13:18
Vajbthey have different approaches between schools too. Some prefer efficient as for others it is "as long as it works".13:27
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Maxdamantusin some ways, the bloatedness of general software is at least partly what drives making other software more efficient, which is often still an improvement for handling software that is already good enough.13:48
KotCzarnyand then we eat out all earth's resources and go back to stone age13:48
KotCzarnygrowth is nice, uncontrolled, rabid growth is just death race into the abyss13:49
KotCzarnynow we have a bunch of regular joes having supercomputers at the reach of their hands, yet all they do is gossiping and looking at pictures/videos13:50
KotCzarnyand producing trash, lots of trash13:50
MaxdamantusSupposedly that's how capitalism is meant to produce technical improvements.13:52
KotCzarnyand rot out at the same time13:53
MaxdamantusThose "supercomputers" probably aren't profitable you can't convince the regular joes they need them.13:53
KotCzarnythey DO need them, how would they gossip and look at pictures/videos otherwise?13:53
KotCzarnyat a nice flat rate of xxx $$13:54
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