IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2018-02-07

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DocScrutinizer05or just parameter-substitute to cp03:10
DocScrutinizer05cp -t somewhere/ $(find source/ -name '*.mp3'|sort -R)03:12
DocScrutinizer05cave max linelen!03:12
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pkill9Wizzup: what interesting software and such currently works with maemo-kawaii to play with? is there a web browser that ppl can try out? I tried 'surf' since that was suggested as being default, but I find it tries to scroll and select text at the same time when using the stylus on it03:31
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OksanaWhat is kawaii?..05:00
JuestoOksana: Some form of anime thing05:01
Juestojapanese sayings05:02
Juestois it necessary to ask it here?05:02
Juestooh wait05:02
JuestoOksana: Maemo-kawaii is the codename of the update or something05:02
* Juesto searches05:02
OksanaOne: be shorter, please. Even when nobody is speaking on the channel, it's more polite to use one long line than ten short ones. Two: I have heard of maemo-lestre update, but not about maemo-kawaii?05:03
JuestoOksana: Actually i think i am wrong, i am not sure what he refers to05:04
Juestopkill9: what did you mean by maemo-kawaii ?05:04
OksanaAnd about web browsers: there are qml-browser and heliummobilebrowser available in maemo repositories, just to scratch the surface. Depends on package compatibility with maemo-kawaii, whatever that is?05:06
JuestoOksana: please do not instantly assume it is a OS update. i said i am not sure.05:06
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Juestoso after all05:10
Juestowhich maemo device i should get for the OS experience and experimenting?05:13
OksanaOkay, I see where kawaii comes from : In terms of getting a Virtualbox/VMWare image running, do a minimal Devuan install and then add a custom 'kawai' repository. (we will soon rename that to leste again...)05:15
pkill9Juesto: here
JuestoOh, so it's the codename?05:18
Juestoof something?05:18
Juestothanks oksana05:18
Juestoso it is the beta or alpha?05:19
Oksanathanks pkill9 :-) Readme would be nice, too, about the files05:19
JuestoOksana: actually, looks like kawai is the name of the arm versions05:20
pkill9yeah, i was a little confused too, officially it's called Maemo-leste but since the images were named maemo-kawai I thought that would be more accurate05:20
OksanaJuesto : Nokia N900, I guess. Maemo-leste is also running on Allwinner A33 tablet. Support for Motorola Droid 4, Nokia N950 and Nokia N9 may be coming soon, too.05:20
Juestoand leste is the x86 version05:20
JuestoOriginal maemo experience, Oksana.05:20
OksanaJuesto : link to x86 version?05:20
JuestoNot necessarily this new project05:20
JuestoOksana: x86 is not ready yet, it seems05:21
JuestoAll i see in are files for armel05:21
OksanaJuesto : that's why I recommend Nokia N900 [with Maemo 5]. Nokia N800, Nokia N810, and similar have Maemo 4. Nokia N9 and Nokia N950 have Maemo 6.05:21
Jueston900 and sunxi, whatever the latter is05:22
OksanaJuesto : I think it's only intended to run on arm, or in VM. Not on x86 directly.05:22
JuestoOksana: x86 directly is being worked on, one of them is testing on x86 AFAIK05:23
OksanaVariety of ARM devices is already a good sight to see.05:23
Juestoah i see, armel and armhf for n90005:23
Juestojust noticed now05:23
Oksanapkill9 : Is there a way to browse the repositories? In distant future, something like could be connected, since kawai-leste is next step after Diablo and Fremantle.05:26
JuestoOksana: Those repositories are browseable by standard apt manners. you can find your way through the directory pool too05:27
Juestoi dont think the current maemo is suitable for installing packages from there at all, oksana05:27
* Oksana just imagines how disastrous it would be to add kawai repositories to a standard Maemo 5-running Nokia N90005:28
OksanaAh, pool, that's nice, thank you :-) :
pkill9Oksana: I'm not sure, as far as I know Maemo-leste is based on devuan and uses those repositories, but also they're adding their own repo which consists of ported hildon software. more info is on their github05:29
pkill9main page:
Juestopkill9: i assume kawai is based on leste and its a build name. probably leste is the source code or the pc version05:29
pkill9this page seems to track what they're working on
Juestoactually the first statement is incorrect, seems kawai is a build codename for arm05:30
OksanaJust confusion with build names, because of variety of Debian's build names, such as jessie05:30
pkill9yeah, it looks likea  codename05:30
Juestoi guess05:30
pkill9i tested it and it successfully boots into hildon and I can use terminal and install thigns from the repository05:31
OksanaNice :-) Did you find a good web browser? Is qml-browser available, for example?05:32
OksanaAlso, how is hildon-theme-alpha in kawai repositories, isn't it one of Nokia's closed binaries?05:32
pkill9the only one i tried so far is surf, i'll see if qml-browser is available05:33
pkill9i dunno05:33
JuestoOksana: work in maemo leste is all reversed stuff from nokia blobs, afaik05:33
Juestofor the closed parts05:33
OksanaI would hope so. But hildon-theme-alpha is mostly just images and styles, it would have worked without being reverse-engineered, so I have no idea if anybody put any effort into reverse-engineering it.05:35
pkill9i recommend checking their page, i posted it earlier, if you didn't see it:
* Oksana will read it, thank you :-)05:35
JuestoOksana: oh... they're resources?05:36
Juestowell, that stuff is copyrighted probably05:36
OksanaReverse-engineering means that first, person X goes through package (such as hildon-theme-alpha) and documents things (like, what depends on the theme, which images are expected to exist in the theme, which styles are expected to exist in the theme, which class names are expected to be style-sed by05:40
OksanaIn short, package being reverse-engineered should ideally be approached as black box - we know what input to feed it, and what output it will give, but we don't know what's inside it.05:42
Oksanatheme), and then, person Y creates a new package, without looking at Nokia's closed package - only looking at reference documentation, such as X's notes, and existing open-source themes.05:42
JuestoThank you for the explanation it was a little unnecessary but good for people who have no idea :)05:43
OksanaIt's probably one of >> fall back to closed components temporarily while we bring up the OS << current limitations05:43
Oksanapkill9 : how is it? Since kawai repository seems to be very bare-bones at the moment (entirely understandable), devuan repositories might actually be more fruitful.05:48
pkill9i can get everything from devuan, i just installed chromium 63 and running it, though it won't take keyboard input for some reason05:49
pkill9can get git, python3 etc05:50
pkill9note i can type into the terminal05:50
OksanaThere was an add-on for chromium, to make scrolling on touchscreen easier, I think...05:51
pkill9yeah there is, i remember that one05:51
pkill9so you can 'grab' the page05:51
pkill9anyways i gotta sleep, goodnight05:53
OksanaNice. Good night :-)05:53
Juestohow about neo900?05:54
Juestois it stable?05:54
OksanaJuesto : don't mix apples and oranges.05:55
JuestoOksana: is it worth having many phones?05:55
OksanaNeo900 is hardware, device to be released.05:55
Juestomany maemo devices*05:55
JuestoOksana: Should i get the different major devices?05:55
OksanaJuesto : better to pick which one you like more, beforehand. As in, screen size, keyboard, wireless capabilities. You aren't an octopus to use several mobile devices at the same time.05:56
JuestoOksana: I need to research, do you know a easy site for it? i am afraid i may not get any maemo device but the n9 and n900 probably, here in mercadolibre05:57
Juestoi search maemo and it is completely random results05:57
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OksanaTo research... :sigh: There is Wikipedia, for instance.05:57
Juestoi get lumia stuff05:57
Juestoyes, wikipedia is okay, but for the user feedback? experience? technical specifications, features?05:58
OksanaLumia is distracting, yes. These devices run Microsoft operating system.05:58
Juestonot sure05:58
JuestoI mean, searching is confused with lumia because it is nokia, searching maemo seems to yield no results05:58
Juestoor rather, random results05:58
OksanaTechnical specifications and features are listed in Wikipedia, as well as third-party websites such as PhoneArena or something. User feedback... I think you can read to see what people say about their experience.05:59
JuestoOksana: all i see here is battery for n900, and both battery and display replacements for n80006:01
OksanaAs long as you search for exactly +"maemo" (and not maaemo restaurant in Oslo), you get mostly results about Maemo, Nokia N900 and MeeGo (which is related to Maemo 6 running on Nokia N9)06:02
JuestoOksana: Maemo gives random results here on mercadolibre, as i said, nothing useful06:02
JuestoI'll try adding maemo to the model number06:02
Juestonope, it would have already showed up without maemo. Oksana, perhaps you could send me a spare of yours please?06:03
OksanaTry looking for Motorola Droid 4, rather. Nokia N900 is a rather ancient and rare to find device, especially in working condition.06:04
JuestoOksana: XT894? with "motorola droid 4" i get a lot of moto z and moto x, motorola droid turbo came up as suggestion too.06:05
JuestoMoto Droid 2..... a guy sells it for 12k ARS06:05
OksanaXT894, yes06:05
Juestoseems to be a new phone since it mentions wireless charging06:06
OksanaNokia N900 costs between 100$ and 300$, going by EBay. And that's pre-owned, not new.06:09
JuestoOksana: of course, i wouldnt find new. remember i need it to ship to argentina.06:09
OksanaYes, Motorola Droid 4 is newer, but I don't see wireless charging:
JuestoOksana: I saw a *Moto* droid 4, apparently it is a newer model than the one you're mentioning. xt894 was offered in search suggestion06:10
OksanaNo idea.
OksanaMoto or Motorola, it's probably different names of the same model.06:12
JuestoOksana: no, moto is a branding, motorola was company, now lenovo bought it and it is kept as branding, moto is like a brand and a line of products06:13
OksanaEither way, feel free to look at the phone you already have, and check whether it can run Linux.06:14
JuestoOksana: Android dominates the smartphone market along with Apple iOS. i doubt i'll able to find a linux smartphone similar to maemo that isn't android.'06:15
* Oksana points towards Sailfish OS: 06:16
sunshaviJuesto: look 4 it on aliexpress.com06:16
JuestoOksana: it is not common, as far i know. i am yet to see something like sailfish being a highlight somewhere06:16
OksanaManufacturers don't install Sailfish by default, but it doesn't mean that user cannot do it.06:17
Juestois it optimal for it to be installed by default, ensuring and proving maximum compatibility, oksana06:17
OksanaAs you can see, the list of devices capable of running Sailfish OS is longer, _and_ it includes devices which can run Maemo-Leste: Nokia N9, Motorola Droid 4 XT894, Nokia N950.06:18
OksanaJuesto : it makes a large difference only if software and hardware use manufacturer-specific pieces. If Hardware and software use standard and fairly open approach, then everything is compatible with minimal fiddling.06:20
OksanaOne of the earliest smartphones running Linux: <-- Ancient06:21
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JuestoOksana: Of course. usually the end user does not want to install software where it is unknown terrain for such user. on a phone where compatibility isnt known. Perhaps if the manufactured listed a compatibility table06:24
OksanaJuesto : You may find it of interest that there is LuneOS mobile operating system based on the Linux kernel
JuestoOksana: Android is based on the Linux kernel too....06:29
OksanaIt is compatible with Google Galaxy Nexus and Google Nexus 4/5/7, besides other devices06:29
OksanaJuesto : LuneOS runs apps written in Qt5/QML. Maemo can also run apps written in Qt/QML.06:30
JuestoOksana: and does maemo do qt5?06:31
OksanaMore like Qt 4.706:32
JuestoOksana: additionally, see your PMs please.06:32
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Wizzupparazyd: let's get the rename done soon, people are starting to call it kawaii already ;)11:48
parazydi'm building the vms now11:49
parazydwe can try renaming later today if you feel like it11:49
Wizzup04:32 < Oksana> Also, how is hildon-theme-alpha in kawai repositories, isn't it one of Nokia's closed binaries?11:49
WizzupOksana: some non binary stuff we have just imported11:49
WizzupOksana: also, since it's hosted on * there should be no problem11:50
enycWizzup: hrrm, i'm ineterestied in this experimental devuna maemo...     espcially the feasibility of going all armhf,   how much will need 'replacing' to get rid of armel compenents in a usable-system...?12:01
Wizzupof everything non binary is open, then nothing12:04
infobotWizzup meant: if everything non binary is open, then nothing12:04
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enycWizzup: yes, but, what things ary binary non-open  and needed for functional core/maemo sysem ?  what are the blockers  and how easily are they replaced?12:27
Wizzupenyc: big one is the phone stack12:28
Wizzupenyc: there are a few other big ones, like browser12:31
enycWizzup: 'phone stack' includes/excludes 2g/3g data ?12:38
parazydphone stack is actual phone calls. data already works12:39
parazydor, should work with ofono12:40
enycok ... imho that can be done without at first, certainly i the way i use it  but anyway =)  depends on user12:40
parazydkeep in mind this will have to wait a bit, since connui is still missing12:40
enycWizzup: browser -- surely can get one of many  firefox/chromium/whatever-basis  working, no need the original maemo browser?12:41
Wizzupenyc: it depends. data works with ofono, phone calls might/should work with ofono, but then we still need UI. maemo does not use ofono for data nor for calls12:41
Wizzupenyc: right, but let's pick one that's simple and customisable12:41
enycthere were/are many gtk simpler browsers, without as MUCH custimazition but lower resource / faster, iirc12:41
Wizzupyes, surf is one possibility12:42
enyce.g. used to be Gnome galeon , maybe an epiphany or something else i forget12:42
Wizzupbut we'll need to work on scrolling and some gestures..12:42
Wizzupwe're not at the browser customisation point yet12:42
Wizzupneed more core stuff first :)12:42
enycyes and you need  'core' "functional"  to get developers/users  interested!12:43
Wizzupconnui would be very nice, and some init script fixes, and then some status applets and qt are next I think12:43
enycconnui =  the UI for wireless connections?12:44
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siceloWizzup: with ofono & maemo - perhaps the dummy-network hacks would work?12:57
siceloor at least provide a starting point12:58
WizzupI think pavel is already experimenting, but I am not sure what this dummy-network hack is13:00
siceloi'm on crappy network, but it's there in wiki. it's what makes connections such as  usb-networking work. i use that with wpa_supplicant on N900, because the wifi settings on n900 do not work with the enterprise wifi network at my company13:03
siceloanyway, i'm sure pavel will find a more elgant solution :-)13:03
Wizzupon that note, we do plan to use wpa_supp as plugin for icd2 I think13:03
Wizzupbut not sure how far out that is13:04
Wizzupthere is so much to be done, but at least things are moving :)13:04
siceloyou're all doing amazingly good work13:04
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WizzupOksana: Juesto the 'kawai' repo is now renamed to 'leste' again. 'kawai' is what we use for our 'testing'  repos, and as of the rename/merge/move just now, it serves no purpose, images are rebuilt14:02
WizzupOksana: Juesto: Just to be clear, it didn't say 'kawaii', it is not an anime reference14:02
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Wizzuppkill9: re: browser, no nothing is in place yet14:50
Wizzuppkill9: and yes, scrolling doesn't work in surf14:50
Wizzuppkill9: it was just mentioned as a possible thing we could modify14:50
Wizzupbut there's bigger things to tackle first14:51
Wizzupnot sure if you can see the channel logs, but it'd be useful14:51
pkill9i tried chromium and it runs and renders, but the keyboard gets sent to the terminal when you type into chormium o_O14:51
Wizzup:) not surprised14:51
pkill9kk i'll check the channe logs14:51
Wizzupdidn't try that at all14:51
Wizzuppkill9: yeah, it also answers your kawai question14:51
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Juestothanks Wizzup, hehe17:32
Juestoi guess we figured out a bit afterwards17:32
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