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| sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: thanks. i wonder if i'll really manage. i don't really have the dispositon. will try my best though | 10:37 |
|---|---|---|
| L29Ah_ | facilitate plz | 10:37 |
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| juiceme | DocScrutinizer05, thank you. I'll do my best to keep the confidence. | 10:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: shut up plz | 15:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or grow a brain | 15:16 |
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| L29Ah_ | i'll consider your proposition thoroughly | 16:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's up to you to refuse to understand what service the council does voluntarily for benefit of the maemo community, but please don't expose your ignorance by posting disrespectful/silly comments related to council | 17:19 |
| sicelo | i wonder how efficient is N900's handover between cells, esp. 2G<->3G. | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 'normal' | 17:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | afaict | 17:21 |
| L29Ah_ | i still get 403 on maemo.org so fuck council and community | 17:21 |
| sicelo | i have very bad experience when using my cellular net, but the SGS4 has almsot no issues | 17:21 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05 | 17:21 | |
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| L29Ah_ | sicelo: facilitate plz | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "fuck community" in maemo community channel - a nice idea | 17:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: stop that bullshit or earn a ban! | 17:23 |
| sicelo | L29Ah_: i'm not council. :-) | 17:23 |
| L29Ah_ | you'll get my vote if you promise -o DocScrutinizer05 and fix 403 on maemo.org :] | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last warning | 17:24 |
| L29Ah_ | DocScrutinizer05: seriously, where can i see the list of achievements of the council or techstaff for, say, the last year? | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you wouldn't even understand if I stub your nose into it | 17:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | council is not even supposed to thrive for "achievements" | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | neither are they in charge of tmo administration | 17:26 |
| L29Ah_ | what are they supposed to do except spamming me with some stupid polls regarding people and packages? | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/thrive/strive | 17:27 |
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| L29Ah_ | and how do i access maemo.org if techstaff is effectively dead? | 17:28 |
| L29Ah_ | so community, much bullshit | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you might appeal them when I +b you, so they could ask me to revert that ban | 17:28 |
| bencoh | they're not dead, just .... not always available :) | 17:28 |
| L29Ah_ | i guess | 17:28 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: I don't see the point of banning people for that | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: L29Ah_ has a long record for trolling against council | 17:29 |
| bencoh | "so be it"? it's not like he's spamming | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | long as in 2years" | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bans are also earned by spoiling channel mood aka rising temperature, not only for spamming | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | trolls usually don't spam, they troll | 17:31 |
| Wizzup | just take it easy already | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | right, not worth it | 17:31 |
| bencoh | exactly | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cranky mood | 17:32 |
| bencoh | :) | 17:32 |
| bencoh | ~techstaff | 17:33 |
| infobot | methinks techstaff is techstaff(AT)maemo.org - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/ | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | techstaff supposed to neot be "dead", send email or ping sysops or admins in here directly | 17:33 |
| sicelo | got disconnected | 17:33 |
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| L29Ah_ | i did | 17:33 |
| bencoh | sicelo: manual 2G->3G transition usually works here, with no data disconnection | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly blacklist on tmo is chem|st's domain entirely | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | council not involved in that at all | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | neither is "community" | 17:34 |
| bencoh | I hate to point at people, but iirc some of the techstaff people hang around in here (xes maybe?) | 17:34 |
| sicelo | i wonder if i have h/w problem | 17:35 |
| bencoh | so if you don't get any answer by mail, maybe pinging here might help | 17:35 |
| L29Ah_ | they were both highlighted the last time i whined about the 403 stuff | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | xes__ warfare | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st | 17:35 |
| sicelo | of i select 3g only, then eventually i have no network access at all (Allbars disapper). | 17:38 |
| bencoh | sicelo: this could be network-related | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the way blacklist work in talk.maemo.org is quite... suboptimal. I "whined" about that myself a lot. Only meaningful approach though is to discuss the issue with the responsible tmo admin ( chem|st) and offer to help improving it | 17:40 |
| L29Ah_ | chem|st: okay let's discuss it! | 17:40 |
| sicelo | yes i thought so bencoh for a long time. however the s4 has np issue at all | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the rationale I heard was: "we can't limit blacklist to login-only since the rogue IPs run DOS attacks against the server, so we need to block mere reading access too." I have a hard time undertsnading how a blacklisting with a 403 page leverages DOS attacks | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | understanding* | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd suggest to rather employ fail2ban for such DOS-defeat | 17:43 |
| L29Ah_ | i wonder who cares about maemo enough to do DoS attacks | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | me too | 17:44 |
| L29Ah_ | russian hackers i presume | 17:44 |
| L29Ah_ | ™ | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway to discuss the issue chem|st and maybe xes__ are the ones to ping | 17:45 |
| L29Ah_ | DocScrutinizer05: well, 403 helps if DoS involves triggering lots of dynamic content generation | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so employ fail2ban to block unregistered users that trigger lots of high CPU load | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my humble 2 cent | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in a lot of forum software I see e.g. "search" protected by capcha for anonymous access | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can't be impossible to get tmo on par with the bazillion other fora out there | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st first and foremost is tmo chief moderator, the technical server administration (and thus parts of the blacklisting and DoS-defense) could get assigned to a co-admin | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | THIS would be a job for council, to decide | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | disclaimer: my info is like 3 years old, don't know if it's still up to date | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for your question about "achievements of council": council is supposed to publish a meeting-minutes for each weekly meeting | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | should be both on wiki/planet/tmo whatever, and in ML | 17:53 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: blacklisting and DoS is techstaff's domain | 17:54 |
| chem|st | not mine | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, sorry | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 17:54 |
| chem|st | np | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so xes and warfare? | 17:54 |
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| chem|st | mainly xes | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ta! | 17:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | L29Ah_: ^^^ | 17:55 |
| chem|st | the problem with the spammers is that it is "human farming", they bypass like everything we throw at them | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail2ban / throttle, then? | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "sorry, your usage pattern triggered some safeguard. Please log in again after the 15min grace period expired" | 17:57 |
| chem|st | not even that will work, we train them to get smarter ourselves... | 17:57 |
| chem|st | it is a single IP managing to create an idle account on first attempt | 17:57 |
| chem|st | that account is most probably sold away as most of them wait at least a 30day grace period | 17:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | get quota for users | 17:58 |
| chem|st | some spamposts get edited too | 17:58 |
| chem|st | quota? they do a single post | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CPU load quota | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not talking about SPAM | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DoS | 17:59 |
| chem|st | that is a different issue and not the server but the IPHH backbone is the target | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the issue with SPAM is known and annoying and difficult to defeat | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | duh! IPHH? | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what did they do to make skiddies angry? | 18:00 |
| chem|st | it is a backbone they could use, so they try to get inside servers, that is managed well iirc, the account creation attempts on garage and tmo are the left issues | 18:01 |
| chem|st | trying to do php injections to hijack the servers and stuff | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | convert account creation to something annoyingly slow, like email with manual approval? | 18:02 |
| chem|st | and that happens mostly from ranges we have in our blacklists, most of the time noone gets hurt, but every now and then ISPs change areas so we see IPbans on legit networks as it takes a while to be removed from such blacklists, we update daily though | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IP bans always are problematic | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody found a better alternative though | 18:03 |
| chem|st | not yet | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except changing the user interface, like suggested before | 18:04 |
| chem|st | xes tried all kinds of things | 18:04 |
| chem|st | we changed the UI... not visually, but the inner workings to prevent bots, that is why we guess it is human farms | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: could the forum software learn to show a certain class of posts (those from non-yet-approved new users) only to logged-in readers? | 18:06 |
| chem|st | we have like 4 stages you need to get through, and they manage all of them, incl google-recaptcha | 18:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "change UI" more radically, like "to register, please send an email to..." | 18:06 |
| chem|st | no thank you... we had a by hand registration for a while... that is becoming a dayjob | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also SPAM isn't attractive when noob posts are only visible to registered users and those registered users can 'approve' a new user by granting thanks | 18:07 |
| chem|st | 90% of spam is only visible to moderators | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (dayjob) yeah I guess that's annoying and not sustainable | 18:08 |
| chem|st | we have akismet text validation that prevents a lots more as we like, but prevents a lot of spam too | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, the big complaints are about blacklisting users from *reading* the forum | 18:09 |
| chem|st | well that is lifted by a mail to techstaff and won't change without a better idea | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's completely unrelated to creating accounts, bypassing capchas etc | 18:09 |
| chem|st | hard to diff between just-readers and everything else | 18:12 |
| chem|st | gtg now, l8er | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 18:12 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 ponders a set of URL-rewrite rules instead a redirect to 403 becoming effective for the blacklisted IPs only. So those URL-rewrites would catch all the "non read-only" pages only and block/redirect them | 18:14 | |
| parazyd | ^^ | 18:16 |
| parazyd | this would allow browsing with Tor :) | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | allowed URLs: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?* http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=* etc, all other URLs redirect to 403 still | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | add on top the "quota" concept, probably most easily implemented by employing a carefully crafted rule for fail2ban | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so when a user exceeds 2 clicks/s for 10s, he gets banned for 15 minutes, or somesuch | 18:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (adjust the citeria accordingly to match the real situation) | 18:20 |
| bencoh | (definitely needs some adjustment yeah ;)) | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. "only 2 searches per minute" | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail2ban rules are pretty flexible | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: that's the goal | 18:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | among others | 18:24 |
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| freemangordon | parazyd: why it is so silent on devuan-dev? | 18:32 |
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| parazyd | i can't tell myself. it's like the email was simply ignored | 18:36 |
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| parazyd | ignored, because i received replies to my other (unrelated) emails on that mailinglist | 18:37 |
| freemangordon | weird | 18:37 |
| parazyd | :/ | 18:37 |
| freemangordon | do I have our permission to forward that mail to maemo-devs? | 18:38 |
| parazyd | feel free | 18:38 |
| freemangordon | ok, thanks | 18:38 |
| parazyd | also anyone that cares should reply | 18:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | which subject? | 18:42 |
| parazyd | https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170607.212507.1c785ac6.en.html | 18:42 |
| bencoh | uh, is maemo-devs still active? | 18:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [devuan-dev] Building derivative distros on the Devuan Jenkins CI | 18:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ? | 18:43 |
| parazyd | what? | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: why not? | 18:44 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: dunno, I'm just (positively) surprised :) | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | well, will see when I send the mail :) | 18:45 |
| bencoh | I never registered because I didn't think it was tbh ... maybe I should then :) | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: I think teher's anly a few people on this globe who are competent to answer that quation in the email | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | question* | 18:47 |
| freemangordon | actually I can't remember if I have a registration either, or if it is with my abv.bg account | 18:47 |
| parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: those that are, seem to be ignoring the email, as they've replied to my other emails :/ | 18:47 |
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| freemangordon | bencoh: it looks like maemo-developers ML still works | 18:54 |
| bencoh | yay | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | not that there is any activity recently :) | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: are you subscribed to maemo-devs ML? | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | Wizzup: while we are on it, I guess somebody should start releasing the packages, in terms of debian/changelog at least :) | 18:56 |
| Wizzup | Yeah! | 18:56 |
| Wizzup | I'm in hong kong right now. Intense work week behind me, and one more ahead of me. Home in 6 days. | 18:56 |
| freemangordon | ok, no hurry | 18:57 |
| Wizzup | It's unlikely I will pick it up before then, but that perhaps gives the devuan people time to our amprolla version up and running | 18:57 |
| Wizzup | I'm happy to do the packaging stuff, but hope I don't have to work on devuan infra further (was fun, but also a distraction from the real goal) | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | yeah, but I guess it is better we to be ready in advance, at least with couple of packages | 18:57 |
| Wizzup | true. | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | well, I guess if there is a need for some minor tweaks, parazyd will do them | 18:58 |
| Wizzup | sure, and most of it should be in place. :) | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: yep | 18:59 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: could you check if you receive a message on the ML from me? | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | email anme? | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | name | 19:01 |
| freemangordon | "Fwd: Building derivative distros on the Devuan Jenkins CI" | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, that one has only parazyd | 19:01 |
| sicelo | this has got eerie now - no network access at all on 3G | 19:01 |
| bencoh | sicelo: only on 3G? | 19:02 |
| freemangordon | hmm, weird | 19:02 |
| bencoh | (2g working?) | 19:02 |
| sicelo | yea | 19:02 |
| bencoh | probably network issue then | 19:02 |
| sicelo | works on samsung. | 19:03 |
| freemangordon | sicelo: it happened a couple of times to me, power cycle (with battery removal just in case) fixed it for me | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: check https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-dev | 19:04 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: why? | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to check your account | 19:05 |
| freemangordon | I am talking about maemo-developers ML, not devuan-dev :) | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oops sorry | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-dev | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, still wrong | 19:06 |
| *** xes__ is now known as xes | 19:06 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no I'm not on developers ML | 19:07 |
| freemangordon | ah, ok | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or I have no clue where the mails from that ML end in my dir-structure | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | :) | 19:08 |
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| freemangordon | xes: ping | 19:12 |
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| xes | freemangordon: pong | 19:13 |
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| freemangordon | xes: do you know if maemo-developers ML still works? and who is in charge of it? | 19:16 |
| xes | freemangordon: it's a long time since the last time i looked at it. I think that juiceme should take care of it | 19:19 |
| freemangordon | xes: shall I ping him or you will do it? | 19:20 |
| xes | freemangordon: please ping him. At the moment i'm leaving a datacenter and i will be unavailable for a few hours | 19:22 |
| freemangordon | ok | 19:22 |
| freemangordon | juiceme: ping | 19:22 |
| freemangordon | juiceme: Do you know if maemo-developers ML works? And if not, could you bring it back to life? | 19:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: ((no network access at all on 3G)) check the BAND your provider supports. See if N900 does support it as well | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 3G bands are a pita, 4G is a nightmare | 19:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#networks for useful links | 19:46 |
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| sicelo | đoes | 19:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands | 19:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while usually frequency is sufficient, some are ambiguous so you want *band* | 19:47 |
| Sicelo009N | it is supported. i don't know what's up really. | 19:49 |
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| Sicelo009N | i get 3G (unreliable) if i set N900 to Dual mode. 3G only gets no access at all | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | take https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands#Deployments_by_region_.28UMTS-FDD.29 with a grain of slat! stuff changes faster than anybody can update wikipedia | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sometimes it helps to remove battery to make modem reboot hard | 19:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait, are you talking about data only or are calls also not possible? | 19:52 |
| Sicelo009N | everything | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not unheard of that DHCP is fubar on one band only, and particular handover with keeping some DHCP info fails | 19:53 |
| Sicelo009N | like i don't have coverage | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then it's not DHCP related | 19:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sometimes it helps to swap the SIM | 19:54 |
| sicelo | brabd new sim | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that might be the culprit though | 19:55 |
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| Sicelo009N | actually not. it's the N900 | 20:11 |
| Sicelo009N | it's an old problem that I've never taken seriously because I would generally be home (where this network is) for only a few days at a time. | 20:11 |
| Sicelo009N | now i'm here permanently and last two weeks i was using hotspot function off the s4. started using this new SIM today | 20:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | reflash modem with another locale version? **maybe** | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or it's actually a hw defect | 20:29 |
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| sicelo | bug 6484 | 21:05 |
| povbot | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/6484 GPRS/3G stops working but active connection is shown, manual reconnect needed | 21:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, seen this a few times. That's why I suggested hard reboot | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's seemingly related to 3G->2G handover | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and a modem problem | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try entering and leaving airplane mode | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | might reboot the modem if you're lucky | 21:52 |
| Sicelo009N | all that provides only temporary relief unfortunately | 21:54 |
| Sicelo009N | it helps for sure ... but soon the 'problem' starts | 21:54 |
| Sicelo009N | nothing unusual in syslog | 21:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, it's a modem problem | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fixing to 2G or 3G prolly helps | 21:54 |
| Sicelo009N | i just wonder how the S4 (which is on same band as N900) can manage so well | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if airplane mode doesn't reboot the modem, a AT command via pnatd should do | 21:55 |
| Sicelo009N | only to 2G | 21:55 |
| Sicelo009N | fiing to 3G results in completely no reception | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | S4 doesn't have that modem firmware bug | 21:55 |
| Sicelo009N | yes | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so when your 3G is permanently broken then this bug doesn't match your problem | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this bug is about a rarely happening modem hangup when roaming to 2G from 3G in poor signal situation | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which gets fixed by a reboot | 21:57 |
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| * Maxdamantus usually does `killall csd` when connectivity seems to have been lost. | 23:21 | |
| * Maxdamantus might switch to 2G only for a while and see if he still has to do that. | 23:22 | |
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| sicelo | i will reflash the device during the course of the week to see what happens. i don't expect much, but i don't think i have much to lose | 23:54 |
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