IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2017-06-12

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siceloDocScrutinizer05: thanks. i wonder if i'll really manage. i don't really have the dispositon. will try my best though10:37
L29Ah_facilitate plz10:37
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juicemeDocScrutinizer05, thank you. I'll do my best to keep the confidence.10:51
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DocScrutinizer05L29Ah_: shut up plz15:16
DocScrutinizer05or grow a brain15:16
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L29Ah_i'll consider your proposition thoroughly16:32
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DocScrutinizer05it's up to you to refuse to understand what service the council does voluntarily for benefit of the maemo community, but please don't expose your ignorance by posting disrespectful/silly comments related to council17:19
siceloi wonder how efficient is N900's handover between cells, esp. 2G<->3G.17:20
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L29Ah_i still get 403 on so fuck council and community17:21
siceloi have very bad experience when using my cellular net, but the SGS4 has almsot no issues17:21
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L29Ah_sicelo: facilitate plz17:22
DocScrutinizer05"fuck community" in maemo community channel - a nice idea17:22
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DocScrutinizer05L29Ah_: stop that bullshit or earn a ban!17:23
siceloL29Ah_: i'm not council. :-)17:23
L29Ah_you'll get my vote if you promise -o DocScrutinizer05 and fix 403 on :]17:23
DocScrutinizer05last warning17:24
L29Ah_DocScrutinizer05: seriously, where can i see the list of achievements of the council or techstaff for, say, the last year?17:25
DocScrutinizer05you wouldn't even understand if I stub your nose into it17:25
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DocScrutinizer05council is not even supposed to thrive for "achievements"17:26
DocScrutinizer05neither are they in charge of tmo administration17:26
L29Ah_what are they supposed to do except spamming me with some stupid polls regarding people and packages?17:27
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L29Ah_and how do i access if techstaff is effectively dead?17:28
L29Ah_so community, much bullshit17:28
DocScrutinizer05you might appeal them when I +b you, so they could ask me to revert that ban17:28
bencohthey're not dead, just .... not always available :)17:28
L29Ah_i guess17:28
bencohDocScrutinizer05: I don't see the point of banning people for that17:28
DocScrutinizer05bencoh: L29Ah_ has a long record for trolling against council17:29
bencoh"so be it"? it's not like he's spamming17:29
DocScrutinizer05long as in 2years"17:29
DocScrutinizer05bans are also earned by spoiling channel mood aka rising temperature, not only for spamming17:30
DocScrutinizer05trolls usually don't spam, they troll17:31
Wizzupjust take it easy already17:31
DocScrutinizer05right, not worth it17:31
DocScrutinizer05cranky mood17:32
infobotmethinks techstaff is techstaff(AT) - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty
DocScrutinizer05techstaff supposed to neot be "dead", send email or ping sysops or admins in here directly17:33
sicelogot disconnected17:33
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L29Ah_i did17:33
bencohsicelo: manual 2G->3G transition usually works here, with no data disconnection17:33
DocScrutinizer05particularly blacklist on tmo is chem|st's domain entirely17:33
DocScrutinizer05council not involved in that at all17:34
DocScrutinizer05neither is "community"17:34
bencohI hate to point at people, but iirc some of the techstaff people hang around in here (xes maybe?)17:34
siceloi wonder if i have h/w problem17:35
bencohso if you don't get any answer by mail, maybe pinging here might help17:35
L29Ah_they were both highlighted the last time i whined about the 403 stuff17:35
DocScrutinizer05xes__ warfare17:35
siceloof i select 3g only, then eventually i have no network access at all (Allbars disapper).17:38
bencohsicelo: this could be network-related17:39
DocScrutinizer05the way blacklist work in is quite... suboptimal. I "whined" about that myself a lot. Only meaningful approach though is to discuss the issue with the responsible tmo admin ( chem|st) and offer to help improving it17:40
L29Ah_chem|st: okay let's discuss it!17:40
siceloyes i thought so bencoh for a long time. however the s4 has np issue at all17:41
DocScrutinizer05the rationale I heard was: "we can't limit blacklist to login-only since the rogue IPs run DOS attacks against the server, so we need to block mere reading access too." I have a hard time undertsnading how a blacklisting with a 403 page leverages DOS attacks17:42
DocScrutinizer05I'd suggest to rather employ fail2ban for such DOS-defeat17:43
L29Ah_i wonder who cares about maemo enough to do DoS attacks17:44
DocScrutinizer05me too17:44
L29Ah_russian hackers i presume17:44
DocScrutinizer05anyway to discuss the issue chem|st and maybe xes__ are the ones to ping17:45
L29Ah_DocScrutinizer05: well, 403 helps if DoS involves triggering lots of dynamic content generation17:45
DocScrutinizer05so employ fail2ban to block unregistered users that trigger lots of high CPU load17:46
DocScrutinizer05my humble 2 cent17:47
DocScrutinizer05in a lot of forum software I see e.g. "search" protected by capcha for anonymous access17:47
DocScrutinizer05can't be impossible to get tmo on par with the bazillion other fora out there17:48
DocScrutinizer05chem|st first and foremost is tmo chief moderator, the technical server administration (and thus parts of the blacklisting and DoS-defense) could get assigned to a co-admin17:50
DocScrutinizer05THIS would be a job for council, to decide17:50
DocScrutinizer05disclaimer: my info is like 3 years old, don't know if it's still up to date17:51
DocScrutinizer05for your question about "achievements of council": council is supposed to publish a meeting-minutes for each weekly meeting17:52
DocScrutinizer05should be both on wiki/planet/tmo whatever, and in ML17:53
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: blacklisting and DoS is techstaff's domain17:54
chem|stnot mine17:54
DocScrutinizer05ok, sorry17:54
DocScrutinizer05so xes and warfare?17:54
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chem|stmainly xes17:55
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DocScrutinizer05L29Ah_: ^^^17:55
chem|stthe problem with the spammers is that it is "human farming", they bypass like everything we throw at them17:55
DocScrutinizer05fail2ban / throttle, then?17:56
DocScrutinizer05"sorry, your usage pattern triggered some safeguard. Please log in again after the 15min grace period expired"17:57
chem|stnot even that will work, we train them to get smarter ourselves...17:57
chem|stit is a single IP managing to create an idle account on first attempt17:57
chem|stthat account is most probably sold away as most of them wait at least a 30day grace period17:57
DocScrutinizer05get quota for users17:58
chem|stsome spamposts get edited too17:58
chem|stquota? they do a single post17:58
DocScrutinizer05CPU load quota17:58
DocScrutinizer05not talking about SPAM17:58
chem|stthat is a different issue and not the server but the IPHH backbone is the target17:59
DocScrutinizer05the issue with SPAM is known and annoying and difficult to defeat17:59
DocScrutinizer05duh! IPHH?17:59
DocScrutinizer05what did they do to make skiddies angry?18:00
chem|stit is a backbone they could use, so they try to get inside servers, that is managed well iirc, the account creation attempts on garage and tmo are the left issues18:01
chem|sttrying to do php injections to hijack the servers and stuff18:01
DocScrutinizer05convert account creation to something annoyingly slow, like email with manual approval?18:02
chem|stand that happens mostly from ranges we have in our blacklists, most of the time noone gets hurt, but every now and then ISPs change areas so we see IPbans on legit networks as it takes a while to be removed from such blacklists, we update daily though18:02
DocScrutinizer05IP bans always are problematic18:03
DocScrutinizer05nobody found a better alternative though18:03
chem|stnot yet18:04
DocScrutinizer05except changing the user interface, like suggested before18:04
chem|stxes tried all kinds of things18:04
chem|stwe changed the UI... not visually, but the inner workings to prevent bots, that is why we guess it is human farms18:05
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: could the forum software learn to show a certain class of posts (those from non-yet-approved new users) only to logged-in readers?18:06
chem|stwe have like 4 stages you need to get through, and they manage all of them, incl google-recaptcha18:06
DocScrutinizer05"change UI" more radically, like "to register, please send an email to..."18:06
chem|stno thank you... we had a by hand registration for a while... that is becoming a dayjob18:07
DocScrutinizer05also SPAM isn't attractive when noob posts are only visible to registered users and those registered users can 'approve' a new user by granting thanks18:07
chem|st90% of spam is only visible to moderators18:08
DocScrutinizer05(dayjob) yeah I guess that's annoying and not sustainable18:08
chem|stwe have akismet text validation that prevents a lots more as we like, but prevents a lot of spam too18:08
DocScrutinizer05anyway, the big complaints are about blacklisting users from *reading* the forum18:09
chem|stwell that is lifted by a mail to techstaff and won't change without a better idea18:09
DocScrutinizer05that's completely unrelated to creating accounts, bypassing capchas etc18:09
chem|sthard to diff between just-readers and everything else18:12
chem|stgtg now, l8er18:12
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders a set of URL-rewrite rules instead a redirect to 403 becoming effective for the blacklisted IPs only. So those URL-rewrites would catch all the "non read-only" pages only and block/redirect them18:14
parazydthis would allow browsing with Tor :)18:16
DocScrutinizer05allowed URLs:** etc, all other URLs redirect to 403 still18:17
DocScrutinizer05add on top the "quota" concept, probably most easily implemented by employing a carefully crafted rule for fail2ban18:19
DocScrutinizer05so when a user exceeds 2 clicks/s for 10s, he gets banned for 15 minutes, or somesuch18:20
DocScrutinizer05(adjust the citeria accordingly to match the real situation)18:20
bencoh(definitely needs some adjustment yeah ;))18:21
DocScrutinizer05e.g. "only 2 searches per minute"18:21
DocScrutinizer05fail2ban rules are pretty flexible18:21
DocScrutinizer05parazyd: that's the goal18:24
DocScrutinizer05among others18:24
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freemangordonparazyd: why it is so silent on devuan-dev?18:32
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parazydi can't tell myself. it's like the email was simply ignored18:36
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parazydignored, because i received replies to my other (unrelated) emails on that mailinglist18:37
freemangordondo I have our permission to forward that mail to maemo-devs?18:38
parazydfeel free18:38
freemangordonok, thanks18:38
parazydalso anyone that cares should reply18:38
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DocScrutinizer05which subject?18:42
bencohuh, is maemo-devs still active?18:43
DocScrutinizer05[devuan-dev] Building derivative distros on the Devuan Jenkins CI18:43
freemangordonbencoh: why not?18:44
bencohfreemangordon: dunno, I'm just (positively) surprised :)18:44
freemangordonwell, will see when I send the mail :)18:45
bencohI never registered because I didn't think it was tbh ... maybe I should then :)18:45
DocScrutinizer05parazyd: I think teher's anly a few people on this globe who are competent to answer that quation in the email18:46
freemangordonactually I can't remember if I have a registration either, or if it is with my account18:47
parazydDocScrutinizer05: those that are, seem to be ignoring the email, as they've replied to my other emails :/18:47
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freemangordonbencoh: it looks like maemo-developers ML still works18:54
freemangordonnot that there is any activity recently :)18:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: are you subscribed to maemo-devs ML?18:54
freemangordonWizzup: while we are on it, I guess somebody should start releasing the packages, in terms of debian/changelog at least :)18:56
WizzupI'm in hong kong right now. Intense work week behind me, and one more ahead of me. Home in 6 days.18:56
freemangordonok, no hurry18:57
WizzupIt's unlikely I will pick it up before then, but that perhaps gives the devuan people time to our amprolla version up and running18:57
WizzupI'm happy to do the packaging stuff, but hope I don't have to work on devuan infra further (was fun, but also a distraction from the real goal)18:57
freemangordonyeah, but I guess it is better we to be ready in advance, at least with couple of packages18:57
freemangordonwell, I guess if there is a need for some minor tweaks, parazyd will do them18:58
Wizzupsure, and most of it should be in place. :)18:59
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: yep18:59
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: could you check if you receive a message on the ML from me?19:00
DocScrutinizer05email anme?19:01
freemangordon"Fwd: Building derivative distros on the Devuan Jenkins CI"19:01
DocScrutinizer05no, that one has only parazyd19:01
sicelothis has got eerie now - no network access at all on 3G19:01
bencohsicelo: only on 3G?19:02
freemangordonhmm, weird19:02
bencoh(2g working?)19:02
bencohprobably network issue then19:02
siceloworks on samsung.19:03
freemangordonsicelo: it happened a couple of times to me, power cycle (with battery removal just in case) fixed it for me19:03
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: check
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: why?19:05
DocScrutinizer05to check your account19:05
freemangordonI am talking about maemo-developers ML, not devuan-dev :)19:05
DocScrutinizer05oops sorry19:05
DocScrutinizer05ooh, still wrong19:06
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DocScrutinizer05no I'm not on developers ML19:07
freemangordonah, ok19:07
DocScrutinizer05or I have no clue where the mails from that ML end in my dir-structure19:08
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freemangordonxes: ping19:12
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xesfreemangordon: pong19:13
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freemangordonxes: do you know if maemo-developers ML still works? and who is in charge of it?19:16
xesfreemangordon: it's a long time since the last time i looked at it.  I think that juiceme should take care of it19:19
freemangordonxes: shall I ping him or you will do it?19:20
xesfreemangordon: please ping him. At the moment i'm leaving a datacenter and i will be unavailable for a few hours19:22
freemangordonjuiceme: ping19:22
freemangordonjuiceme: Do you know if maemo-developers ML works? And if not, could you bring it back to life?19:23
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DocScrutinizer05sicelo: ((no network access at all on 3G)) check the BAND your provider supports. See if N900 does support it as well19:44
DocScrutinizer053G bands are a pita, 4G is a nightmare19:45
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DocScrutinizer05 for useful links19:46
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DocScrutinizer05while usually frequency is sufficient, some are ambiguous so you want *band*19:47
Sicelo009Nit is supported. i don't know what's up really.19:49
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Sicelo009Ni get 3G (unreliable) if i set N900 to Dual mode. 3G only gets no access at all19:49
DocScrutinizer05take with a grain of slat! stuff changes faster than anybody can update wikipedia19:50
DocScrutinizer05sometimes it helps to remove battery to make modem reboot hard19:51
DocScrutinizer05wait, are you talking about data only or are calls also not possible?19:52
DocScrutinizer05not unheard of that DHCP is fubar on one band only, and particular handover with keeping some DHCP info fails19:53
Sicelo009Nlike i don't have coverage19:53
DocScrutinizer05then it's not DHCP related19:53
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DocScrutinizer05sometimes it helps to swap the SIM19:54
sicelobrabd new sim19:54
DocScrutinizer05that might be the culprit though19:55
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Sicelo009Nactually not. it's the N90020:11
Sicelo009Nit's an old problem that I've never taken seriously because I would generally be home (where this network is) for only a few days at a time.20:11
Sicelo009Nnow i'm here permanently and last two weeks i was using hotspot function off the s4. started using this new SIM today20:11
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DocScrutinizer05reflash modem with another locale version? **maybe**20:28
DocScrutinizer05or it's actually a hw defect20:29
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sicelobug 648421:05
povbotBug GPRS/3G stops working but active connection is shown, manual reconnect needed21:05
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DocScrutinizer05yep, seen this a few times. That's why I suggested hard reboot21:51
DocScrutinizer05it's seemingly related to 3G->2G handover21:52
DocScrutinizer05and a modem problem21:52
DocScrutinizer05try entering and leaving airplane mode21:52
DocScrutinizer05might reboot the modem if you're lucky21:52
Sicelo009Nall that provides only temporary relief unfortunately21:54
Sicelo009Nit helps for sure ... but soon the 'problem' starts21:54
Sicelo009Nnothing unusual in syslog21:54
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, it's a modem problem21:54
DocScrutinizer05fixing to 2G or 3G prolly helps21:54
Sicelo009Ni just wonder how the S4 (which is on same band as N900) can manage so well21:55
DocScrutinizer05if airplane mode doesn't reboot the modem, a AT command via pnatd should do21:55
Sicelo009Nonly to 2G21:55
Sicelo009Nfiing to 3G results in completely no reception21:55
DocScrutinizer05S4 doesn't have that modem firmware bug21:55
DocScrutinizer05so when your 3G is permanently broken then this bug doesn't match your problem21:56
DocScrutinizer05this bug is about a rarely happening modem hangup when roaming to 2G from 3G in poor signal situation21:57
DocScrutinizer05which gets fixed by a reboot21:57
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* Maxdamantus usually does `killall csd` when connectivity seems to have been lost.23:21
* Maxdamantus might switch to 2G only for a while and see if he still has to do that.23:22
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siceloi will reflash the device during the course of the week to see what happens. i don't expect much, but i don't think i have much to lose23:54

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