IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2017-05-12

DocScrutinizer05sarcasm aside, android systems tend to need at least 1GB of RAM nowadays, and simulating that via swapped virtual memory in a VM won't help make apps running in such "box" more responsive00:19
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freemangordonEnrico_Menotti: you've installed which gtk2?01:06
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Wizzupis openmediaplayer not yet in the normal repos?11:35
sixwheeledbeast#define normal11:36
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WizzupSomething I can install from the normal package manager12:33
Wizzupe.g. stuck in dev repo12:33
DocScrutinizer05  nobody promoting it12:35
sixwheeledbeastit should be in extras-devel12:35
sixwheeledbeastoh hi12:36
KotCzarnymight be because they got fed up with -devel/-testing/extras cycle?12:36
KotCzarnyor dont know how to do it12:37
KotCzarnyRandom Question12:38
KotCzarnyWhat is the last Maemo release's name?12:38
KotCzarnyi dont know?!12:38
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: pester the developer to promote package12:38
KotCzarnyis it fremantle? or harmattan?12:38
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KotCzarnythose anti bots questions are actually anti users too ;)12:39
sixwheeledbeastit has never been promoted as it was never finished. I don't know if gidzzz has finished working on it to a stable state yet12:39
KotCzarnydefinitely t.m.o didnt accept 'fremantle' as an answer12:39
sixwheeledbeastmaybe it's old question12:40
KotCzarnybut at least i got 'answer to the universe and everything' right12:41
KotCzarnydefinitely requires some inside knowledge when trying to do t.m.o search ;)12:41
sixwheeledbeastmaybe just login to avoid the question12:42
KotCzarnyLast Activity: 2016-11-13 16:4812:42
KotCzarnyuh, gidzzz seems has left the building12:42
KotCzarnyLatest commit 4d51170 on Nov 13, 201612:43
sixwheeledbeastoh and the answer is Harmattan12:44
sixwheeledbeastwell it thinks the answer is anyway12:44
KotCzarnyit's debatable if harmattan is maemo12:44
KotCzarnyyup, you will have to wait for thebug, he has that board and is the only one that can confirm12:52
KotCzarnyhe lives in different time zone12:52
KotCzarnyoops. wrong chan12:54
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siceloat least getting packages to -testing is easy . . . i don't see why anyone would be fed up with that13:57
KotCzarnybecause it breaks development trance?14:02
KotCzarnyie. you have to switch from cozy text to browser and click things14:02
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DocScrutinizer05sicelo: nobody is fed up with promoting. It's devels simply giving a flying F* about which repo their package is in. Or basically about packaging at all, generally14:10
DocScrutinizer05seems most devels and users don't even understand the idea of maemo-testing, mistaking it as a sympathy contest14:11
DocScrutinizer05it's maemo.testing, NOT maemo-most-popular14:12
DocScrutinizer05testinf comments like "I love it, 1 thunb up from me" should get their account closed14:13
sixwheeledbeastIt doesn't help the amount of package testers tho and the time it takes to test a package14:13
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: indeed14:14
DocScrutinizer05testers are a rare species, and that's a real problem14:14
KotCzarnyand killing users is not gonna help neither14:14
KotCzarnysome people like the idea of dead repos being dead. but tidy as hell14:15
DocScrutinizer05I still have that pet project idea to wrap ALL apps in maemo-testing into a runtime test wrapper that opens a "nag screen" on closing the app. That nag screen collects mem usage etc values automatically and appends a comment form user to make an automated email to the testing infra14:15
sixwheeledbeastI dont have the time I had to spend testing various packages like i did.14:16
sixwheeledbeastautomatic testing of root and opt memory would reduce the testing time greatly14:17
DocScrutinizer05I occasionally do testing, but very raely and not many packages are new in testing. The ones still lingering there are not the ones I feel like giving them a test14:17
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's the idea: automate the usual leak and hog test14:17
DocScrutinizer05should be rather simple to do to wrap such thing around $arbitrary-testing-app-pkg14:18
sixwheeledbeasta large number of new users will be unaware of the QA procedure anyway. #speedpatch14:19
infobotmethinks jrtools is
DocScrutinizer05needs a "maemo fremantle for newcomers, 2017 edition"14:21
DocScrutinizer05starting with the very basics like "maemo is very much _like_ debian, but it IS NOT debian. For example the packaging (and thus proecedures you're possibly used to, like apt-get dist-upgrade) fail epically on maemo"14:23
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sixwheeledbeast"WAS" very much like Debian?14:26
DocScrutinizer05just throwing a new sources.list at noobs doesn't help them to understanf how repos *really* work, regarding maemo-devel|testing|extras, tools, whatnot14:26
DocScrutinizer05indeed LOL14:26
DocScrutinizer05nice place to have a short exursion to Devuan14:26
DocScrutinizer05and how maemo debian and devuan relate14:27
Wizzupwelp, I guess I can't ask a question without a non-constructive debate following14:27
DocScrutinizer05when you think this debate is non-constructive then readjust your filters and attitude14:28
sixwheeledbeastsudo givemeworkingmaemopackages14:28
DocScrutinizer05one thing's for sure: calling this discussion non-constructive for sure doesn'T qualify as a constructive contribution14:30
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DocScrutinizer05hmmmm, zzztop lacks a feature: should have `zzztop -t=0` which collects data infinitely until zzztop gets a ^C or other signal that stops it, then dumps the results14:35
DocScrutinizer05as you might have guessed, that would be useful for the above mentioned testing wrapper14:36
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tx-tmpI'm having an odd issue where my N900 refuses to boot after reflashing. When I boot it the white LED fades on yet it doesn't "vibrate" and show anything on screen. From there on nothing happens and I have to remove the battery to boot again.14:38
tx-tmpAnyone that might have a clue on what to try next?14:38
tx-tmpI reflashed eMMC/FIASCO.14:39
tx-tmpTo no avail. ;_;14:39
DocScrutinizer05did you use lazyflashing?14:39
DocScrutinizer05sounds like an issue with bootloader14:40
DocScrutinizer05if youlike, I can talk you through a series of tests14:41
DocScrutinizer05prerequisites: you're using a linux PC14:41
tx-tmpLazyflashing? You mean the .sh from the Wiki? I assumed bootloader issues as well, but cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow; didn't help).14:41
tx-tmpYes, I'm on Linux.14:41
tx-tmpWould be very much appreciated.14:42
infobotfrom memory, lazyflashing is
tx-tmpDidn't try.14:42
tx-tmpJust used the .deb flasher by hand.14:42
DocScrutinizer05please try this first, it's the most siple and secure way to do flashing right14:42
tx-tmpI will! Thank you.14:42
DocScrutinizer05yw :-) please report back here14:43
* DocScrutinizer05 should try to move lazyflashing to maemo infra, just in case his server goes south some time14:44
DocScrutinizer05ouch >>cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow<< this _might_ have had an opposite effect14:46
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sixwheeledbeastyou can zzztop -t=999999999 it?14:47
DocScrutinizer05tx-tmp: first thing to do: check your linux PC /var/log/syslog or /var/log/messages (or dmesg, worst case) for logs of powered down N900 getting connected to PC via USB14:47
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: yes, but I guess it won't dump statistics when you abort it, right?14:48
sixwheeledbeastpowertop is the same? I suppose it needs to calculate values over a set period of time14:50
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DocScrutinizer05yep, same14:51
tx-tmpIt does show up in the systemlog, yes, and I didn't overwrite the bootloader (no worries there)!14:51
tx-tmpAnyhow, I tried lazyflashing14:51
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tx-tmpFinal step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. :(14:51
DocScrutinizer05damn, zzztop is perl14:51
tx-tmpIt worked yesterday, by the way. Left it to charge overnight and it died.14:52
tx-tmpMight be relevant, or might not be, but I tried to save a video file which corrupted yesterday.14:52
infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber shut off -> start over again with ~flatbatrecover while already searching for a new battery. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs OK (no ~bootloop)14:52
tx-tmpThe weird thing is that the battery is full, and booting it in "charge mode" still seems to charge.14:52
infobotrumour has it, bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.14:53
DocScrutinizer05((final step)) please provide full session log pastebin14:53
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tx-tmp@flatbat: Battery light is steady green. After leaving it on for a bit it does turn into a flashing amber light. (Odd sidenote: it turned into a green flashing light for a bit, too.)14:53
DocScrutinizer05lazyflashing shouldn't make "device boot as usualy"14:54
sixwheeledbeastI thought you knew it was perl?14:54
infobotzzztop is, like, - the better and even FOSS powertop -
sixwheeledbeastfatphil is the one to ask14:54
tx-tmpAnd it doesn't bootloop. Looks more like a freeze/panic. I have to pull the battery out before it can attempt to boot again (white LED fading on).14:54
DocScrutinizer05I thought it was perl, but I realized I have no idea how to patch perl ;-)14:55
DocScrutinizer05to get a trap in14:55
DocScrutinizer05(fatphil) I know :-)14:55
DocScrutinizer05but I guess I can learn as much perl as needed for such simple patch14:56
DocScrutinizer05tx-tmp: please compare
DocScrutinizer05if those 3 stages are OK for your device, your bootloader should be OK and a lazyflashing should fix your issue15:01
DocScrutinizer05if 3rd stage (maemo, idProduct=01c7) doesn't show, your bootloader still is OK and same as above applies15:02
DocScrutinizer05if stage 2 (idProduct=0105) doesn't show, you need coldflashing15:02
DocScrutinizer05next test: hold 'u' key while plugging in powered-down device to USB, check if NOKIA screen with USB icon comes up15:04
DocScrutinizer05if not, your battery is probably empty15:04
DocScrutinizer05green idicator light however is quite "strange" since it is a feature of maemo system already booted iirc. Shouldn't get set by NOLO nor hardware15:06
DocScrutinizer05please allow 60s for booting15:06
DocScrutinizer05after flashing, a few minutes with black screen are ok until system firstboot finished15:07
DocScrutinizer05it's all in comments printed by lazyflashing ;-)15:07
DocScrutinizer05on low battery NOLO tries to directly boot into maemo system to charge battery, which is a very braindamaged thing to do when system is defect and needs reflash15:09
infobotmethinks bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.15:09
DocScrutinizer05bbl, busy15:10
tx-tmp Looks fine to me. Reaches stage 3.15:16
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: first googlehit:
DocScrutinizer05tx-tmp: yes15:18
DocScrutinizer05try lazyflashing, follow the instructions verbatim15:19
DocScrutinizer05don't assume, don't connect device without being istructed to do so15:19
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DocScrutinizer05here's a browsable version of the script:
DocScrutinizer05(([2017-05-12 Fri 13:51:40] <tx-tmp> Final step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. ))  "A while" here means several minutes15:29
DocScrutinizer05did you answer "YES" (three chars UpperCase) to the question?15:29
DocScrutinizer05tx-tmp: ooh, and for good measure, remove SIM and uSD15:36
tx-tmpSorry, incomplete response, got a phone call from work so I was afk for a bit.15:37
DocScrutinizer05uSD might have filesystems that impair the boot process when they are e.g. unknown or need fsck. SIM known to make boot process block in very rare cases15:37
tx-tmpI did lazyflash exactly according to instructions, sadly, the problem remains the same (as before flashing).15:37
tx-tmpI did answer YES and SIM/SD are removed.15:37
KotCzarnymaybe you should log whole flashing session and pastebin it?15:38
tx-tmpIt's just a normal flashing session, output is exactly as one would expect when looking at the .sh and assuming a non-faulty device. :)15:39
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tx-tmpThe odd thing is that the screen doesn't turn on and it doesn't give the classical vibration/jolt upon boot.15:39
tx-tmpIt's as if it gets stuck before that part...15:39
KotCzarnydo you have spare battery?15:39
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tx-tmpI will try a different battery, I think I have a spare one at home.15:39
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tx-tmpWouldn't be surprised if it's a battery issue. It's been showing up as being 0% full in the OS even when it was actually charged...15:40
tx-tmpAncient little battery.15:40
tx-tmpAlso, thanks for all the help Doc, very much appreciate it.15:40
KotCzarnymine is 8 years old, still using it ;)15:41
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KotCzarnybut it's charged, ie taken from working device?15:43
DocScrutinizer05tx-tmp: please test the hold-Ukey thing15:43
tx-tmpYeah, this battery works the N900 of a friend.15:43
tx-tmpWill do.15:43
DocScrutinizer05if your NOLO doesn't show the NOKIA screen (without, then with backlight on), yur display is defect15:44
DocScrutinizer05of NOLO is defect15:44
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tx-tmpNo screen is shown whatsoever.15:45
tx-tmpI would accept the screen being broken, but it bugs me that the boot-vibration is also missing.15:45
tx-tmpWhich is a different piece of HW.15:45
KotCzarnybroken display shouldnt affect lack of vibra on powerup15:45
DocScrutinizer05NOLO behaves strange when display not connected15:46
DocScrutinizer05when NOLO can't initialize the display controller, it will not kick vibra afaik15:47
tx-tmpMhm, interesting. Might actually be that the display died in that case.15:47
DocScrutinizer05usually cable15:47
KotCzarnyswapping display part is 5 minutes of work15:47
infoboti guess flex is a sucky nick used by freaks, or flex is also the Fast Lexical analyzer generator. A Lex compatible scanner generator.15:47
DocScrutinizer05~listvalues flex*cable15:48
infobotFactoid search of 'flex*cable' by value (1): fract-o-rama.15:48
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infobotQt-based, flexible fractal generation program. URL:
DocScrutinizer05~listvalues flat*cable15:48
infobotFactoid search of 'flat*cable' by value (1): jargon boa.15:48
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DocScrutinizer05~listvalues maemo*cable15:51
infobotFactoid search of 'maemo*cable' by value returned no results.15:51
DocScrutinizer05~listvalues cale*maemo15:51
infobotFactoid search of 'cale*maemo' by value returned no results.15:51
DocScrutinizer05~listvalues cable*maemo15:51
infobotFactoid search of 'cable*maemo' by value returned no results.15:51
DocScrutinizer05no idea15:51
DocScrutinizer05seach in tmo15:52
DocScrutinizer05usually the flat plastic connector cable from display slide to mainboard, particularly the B2B conn 'plug' at end, which breaks15:53
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tx-tmpI'll try fixing that one, yeah.15:54
tx-tmpIt was about time to buy a spare N900 anyway...15:54
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tx-tmpThanks. :)16:19
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keriomy mobile operator now has free national roaming for data ;o16:56
kerioall the 2G irc16:56
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kerioi have like barely any reason not to leave xchat open in perpetuity i guess16:59
KotCzarnytwo words: battery drain ?17:01
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kerioit's gprs tho17:03
KotCzarnysee? battery drain17:04
deepyKotCzarny: compared to what?17:05
KotCzarnyand up17:05
deepyAre you saying the battery drain on gprs is greater than on 3g?17:06
KotCzarnyyup, 2g time slots are big17:06
Wizzupwith a passive conn?17:06
Wizzupor if you're using it actively17:06
deepyActually, I can't argue this becuase I don't remember if I'm remembering the drain with or without HSPA :E17:07
KotCzarnyalso, being slower, it requires long transmit events17:09
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bencohKotCzarny: actually, no, definitely not (regarding gprs vs umts)17:10
KotCzarnyfunny numbers in 'data only' scenario17:10
KotCzarnyand remember that with tcp there is much less idling when there is some connection going on17:11
KotCzarnyas every packet requires answer17:12
ShadowJKThe "lots of very small but frequent data transfers" category is missing from that link :)17:12
KotCzarnyand i assume kerio sits on many channels17:12
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DocScrutinizer05~#maemo flexcable is <reply>see fixribbon19:58
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay19:58
infobotwell, fixribbon is
DocScrutinizer05kerio: national roaming??20:00
keriomy operator is 3G-only20:00
keriowell, with some 4G20:00
kerioso it offered roaming on the 2G operator for a while20:00
keriobut data was not included20:00
DocScrutinizer05we got that since... A-band here, and I have xchat open 25/7/36520:00
DocScrutinizer05we had like 4 primary operators, recently O2 bought out E-plus20:01
DocScrutinizer05so now O2, Vodafone, Telekom20:02
DocScrutinizer05everything else are minute resellers20:02
DocScrutinizer05in the early days O2 (E1 band) used roaming on Telekom's D1 band in areas where they had no own coverage20:03
DocScrutinizer05via Swisscom ;-P20:03
DocScrutinizer05now all three providers are nationwide coverage20:04
DocScrutinizer05some minute resellers offer roaming between 2 or 3 of the providers20:04
DocScrutinizer05all 3 providers now use D and E bands as well as other (harmonized, so far) bands for UMTS20:05
DocScrutinizer05compare that to 3rd world telecom nations like USA where you need roaming to go from east LA to west LA20:06
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DocScrutinizer05and in 4 weeks an EU-wide regulation forbids roaming primium charge in whole EU20:08
DocScrutinizer05so we have free roaming from Norway(?) to Ceuta (Spain, on Afrika)20:09
DocScrutinizer05byebye "Great" Britain20:10
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DocScrutinizer05ooh, and all 3 providers provide all RATs from 2G to LTE20:21
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DocScrutinizer05they differ slightly in LTE max speed20:21
Enrico_MenottiHello. I'd like to ask a few general things about Maemo architecture, and operating systems in general. Although I have Devuan booting on the N900, and now also X and gtk+ on top of it, I'm not sure I refer to all the OS components with their (strictly) correct names. Up to now I decided to follow a quite heuristic approach to OS's, in order to grab immediately a practical flavour of theoretical concepts. Now I got20:26
Enrico_Menotti that, and I have a few components in my hand, and I feel it's time to put some order on concepts. For sure what I will ask are very basic things, but I don't feel much ashamed for it - if I can get more sure of what I'm talking about, that would be good. Ok?20:26
infobotQuestions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.20:29
Enrico_MenottiSo first, a general question about OS architecture, in general. As I have been learning in the last few weeks, an OS is composed fundamentally by a kernel and a file system (possibly with an initial ram disk), and on top of that one may have a stack for running a desktop environment. Right?20:29
Enrico_MenottiKotCzarny (A minute, I'm asking.)20:30
Enrico_MenottiNow in common language I'm used to hear talking about "Linux" as an OS, with all its possible flavours (such as Debian, Devuan, Ubuntu, etc.). But if I got it right, strictly speaking the name "Linux" only defines the kernel, while the OS includes the file system as well. So this is the first point I'd like to be sure of.20:33
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Enrico_MenottiThe second is about the term "Operating System": if I got it right, as stated above, it comprises *both* kernel and file system, but what about the desktop environment? Should it be considered part of the OS?20:35
Enrico_MenottiAnd now about Maemo specifically: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right?20:37
DocScrutinizer05the correct name is usually GNU/Linux which is kernel, filesystem and userland basic system services20:37
DocScrutinizer05usually you consider the OS being kernel, filesystem drivers, and all the basic userland tools and processes/daemons/services20:39
DocScrutinizer05OS (and several, but not all, available filesystems) are linux, while the userland stuff is GNU20:39
DocScrutinizer05unless it isn't, e.g upstart or systemd prolly isn't GNU20:40
infobotgnu is, like, an animal having a drooping beard. And it's also an antelope.20:40
DocScrutinizer05~wiki GNU20:41
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{about|the operating system|the animal|Wildebeest|the free software project|GNU Project|other uses}} {{Infobox OS | logo = Heckert GNU white.svg | logo size = 100px | screenshot = HURD Live CD.png | caption = Debian GNU/Hurd console startup and login | family = Unix-like | developer = Community | source model = Free software | marketing target = Personal computers, mobile devices, ...20:41
DocScrutinizer05and no, a desktop isn't usually considered a tightly OS-related component20:44
DocScrutinizer05though some DEs only run on a particular OS, many are pretty OS-agnostic, I think KDE even runs on windows ;-D20:44
DocScrutinizer05Apple's OS is not linux (and even less GNU), but it's still a unix of sorts, and stuff like KDE and GNU tools work on OS-X20:46
Enrico_MenottiOk, so fundamentally OS = kernel + filesystem management + services, right?20:47
DocScrutinizer05there's one common denominator nowadays and that's POSIX which defines systemcalls that are identical on all POSIX compliant systems, no matter if GNU/linux or GNU/hurd or *BSD or OS-X or windows20:48
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's quite right20:48
DocScrutinizer05*usually* you get a OS bundled with a wealth of userland applications made to run on that OS20:52
Enrico_MenottiOk, now about "Linux". Is it just the kernel? Or also the filesystem management? And services are excluded from the "Linux" definition, being referred to as "GNU"?20:53
DocScrutinizer05so many people refer to both the OS and the apps when they talk about their (operating) System20:53
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DocScrutinizer05that's a tough question, see above20:54
DocScrutinizer05also see
Enrico_MenottiAh so that's not well defined, right? (I read both things here and there over the web.)20:55
Enrico_MenottiIn the last link you posted, e.g., they talk about "Linux kernel".20:57
DocScrutinizer05for shits & giggles, read about
DocScrutinizer05running gag: is Hurd already released?20:58
Enrico_MenottiOk so it's not just me having no clear ideas. Nice to hear. :)21:00
Enrico_MenottiAbout Maemo: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right?21:01
DocScrutinizer05the kernel of maemo is pretty much a plain upstream linux kernel, though Nokia added a few device drivers that were not (initially) upstreamed and thus considered Nokia-specific (though thery are FOSS) by some21:03
DocScrutinizer05the file systems are plain upstream21:03
DocScrutinizer05the file system drivers that is21:03
DocScrutinizer05often people call a disk image a "filesystem"21:04
DocScrutinizer05the desktop environment is Hildon which is based on a X11 flavor called matchbox iirc, with a window manager/desktop manager developed by Nokia on top21:05
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DocScrutinizer05(the latter would be hildon-desktop, hildon-home, etc)21:06
DocScrutinizer05matchbox is upstream21:06
DocScrutinizer05and yes, hildon uses gtk2+ modified for the usecase21:07
DocScrutinizer05the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper lernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR21:09
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper kernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR21:09
DocScrutinizer05another huge part is the stack of libs and daemons that talks to the modem21:10
DocScrutinizer05a thitd is the stuff related to the OMAP DSP21:11
Enrico_MenottiDigital Signal Processor?21:11
Enrico_MenottiThe part for the modem, is that open source or not?21:12
DocScrutinizer05nope, closed21:12
Enrico_MenottiSo up to now the only OS which is able to use the N900 as a cell phone is Maemo?21:13
DocScrutinizer05there are replacements like ofono but they are not plug-in replacement for the existing stuff, they have different concept and API21:13
WizzupEnrico_Menotti: no21:13
Wizzupsome people have been able to make calls21:13
Wizzupalbeit crappy quality21:13
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Enrico_MenottiOk, thank you for the *very* useful info. Nice talk. Now I have to go - I will ask some more in the next few days, although I will be a bit busy with Special Relativity :) .21:16
Enrico_MenottiGreat diagrams, btw. I had already seen something, but did not read carefully, I admit.21:17
DocScrutinizer05Special Relativity is simpler than maemo ;-P21:26
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