| DocScrutinizer05 | sarcasm aside, android systems tend to need at least 1GB of RAM nowadays, and simulating that via swapped virtual memory in a VM won't help make apps running in such "box" more responsive | 00:19 |
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| freemangordon | Enrico_Menotti: you've installed which gtk2? | 01:06 |
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| Wizzup | is openmediaplayer not yet in the normal repos? | 11:35 |
| sixwheeledbeast | #define normal | 11:36 |
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| Wizzup | Something I can install from the normal package manager | 12:33 |
| Wizzup | e.g. stuck in dev repo | 12:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/openmediaplayer/ nobody promoting it | 12:35 |
| sixwheeledbeast | it should be in extras-devel | 12:35 |
| sixwheeledbeast | oh hi | 12:36 |
| KotCzarny | might be because they got fed up with -devel/-testing/extras cycle? | 12:36 |
| KotCzarny | or dont know how to do it | 12:37 |
| KotCzarny | Random Question | 12:38 |
| KotCzarny | What is the last Maemo release's name? | 12:38 |
| KotCzarny | i dont know?! | 12:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: pester the developer to promote package | 12:38 |
| KotCzarny | is it fremantle? or harmattan? | 12:38 |
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| KotCzarny | those anti bots questions are actually anti users too ;) | 12:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | it has never been promoted as it was never finished. I don't know if gidzzz has finished working on it to a stable state yet | 12:39 |
| KotCzarny | definitely t.m.o didnt accept 'fremantle' as an answer | 12:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Diablo? | 12:40 |
| sixwheeledbeast | maybe it's old question | 12:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 12:40 |
| KotCzarny | but at least i got 'answer to the universe and everything' right | 12:41 |
| KotCzarny | definitely requires some inside knowledge when trying to do t.m.o search ;) | 12:41 |
| sixwheeledbeast | maybe just login to avoid the question | 12:42 |
| KotCzarny | Last Activity: 2016-11-13 16:48 | 12:42 |
| KotCzarny | uh, gidzzz seems has left the building | 12:42 |
| KotCzarny | Latest commit 4d51170 on Nov 13, 2016 | 12:43 |
| sixwheeledbeast | oh and the answer is Harmattan | 12:44 |
| sixwheeledbeast | well it thinks the answer is anyway | 12:44 |
| KotCzarny | it's debatable if harmattan is maemo | 12:44 |
| sixwheeledbeast | exactly | 12:45 |
| KotCzarny | yup, you will have to wait for thebug, he has that board and is the only one that can confirm | 12:52 |
| KotCzarny | he lives in different time zone | 12:52 |
| KotCzarny | oops. wrong chan | 12:54 |
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| sicelo | at least getting packages to -testing is easy . . . i don't see why anyone would be fed up with that | 13:57 |
| KotCzarny | because it breaks development trance? | 14:02 |
| KotCzarny | ie. you have to switch from cozy text to browser and click things | 14:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: nobody is fed up with promoting. It's devels simply giving a flying F* about which repo their package is in. Or basically about packaging at all, generally | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems most devels and users don't even understand the idea of maemo-testing, mistaking it as a sympathy contest | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's maemo.testing, NOT maemo-most-popular | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | testinf comments like "I love it, 1 thunb up from me" should get their account closed | 14:13 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It doesn't help the amount of package testers tho and the time it takes to test a package | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: indeed | 14:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | testers are a rare species, and that's a real problem | 14:14 |
| KotCzarny | and killing users is not gonna help neither | 14:14 |
| KotCzarny | some people like the idea of dead repos being dead. but tidy as hell | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I still have that pet project idea to wrap ALL apps in maemo-testing into a runtime test wrapper that opens a "nag screen" on closing the app. That nag screen collects mem usage etc values automatically and appends a comment form user to make an automated email to the testing infra | 14:15 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I dont have the time I had to spend testing various packages like i did. | 14:16 |
| sixwheeledbeast | automatic testing of root and opt memory would reduce the testing time greatly | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I occasionally do testing, but very raely and not many packages are new in testing. The ones still lingering there are not the ones I feel like giving them a test | 14:17 |
| sixwheeledbeast | :nod: | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, that's the idea: automate the usual leak and hog test | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | should be rather simple to do to wrap such thing around $arbitrary-testing-app-pkg | 14:18 |
| sixwheeledbeast | a large number of new users will be unaware of the QA procedure anyway. #speedpatch | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ROTFL | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools | 14:19 |
| infobot | methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools#AFTER_FLASHING | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | needs a "maemo fremantle for newcomers, 2017 edition" | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | starting with the very basics like "maemo is very much _like_ debian, but it IS NOT debian. For example the packaging (and thus proecedures you're possibly used to, like apt-get dist-upgrade) fail epically on maemo" | 14:23 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | "WAS" very much like Debian? | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just throwing a new sources.list at noobs doesn't help them to understanf how repos *really* work, regarding maemo-devel|testing|extras, tools, whatnot | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed LOL | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nice place to have a short exursion to Devuan | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and how maemo debian and devuan relate | 14:27 |
| Wizzup | welp, I guess I can't ask a question without a non-constructive debate following | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you think this debate is non-constructive then readjust your filters and attitude | 14:28 |
| sixwheeledbeast | sudo givemeworkingmaemopackages | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one thing's for sure: calling this discussion non-constructive for sure doesn'T qualify as a constructive contribution | 14:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmmm, zzztop lacks a feature: should have `zzztop -t=0` which collects data infinitely until zzztop gets a ^C or other signal that stops it, then dumps the results | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as you might have guessed, that would be useful for the above mentioned testing wrapper | 14:36 |
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| tx-tmp | I'm having an odd issue where my N900 refuses to boot after reflashing. When I boot it the white LED fades on yet it doesn't "vibrate" and show anything on screen. From there on nothing happens and I have to remove the battery to boot again. | 14:38 |
| tx-tmp | Anyone that might have a clue on what to try next? | 14:38 |
| tx-tmp | I reflashed eMMC/FIASCO. | 14:39 |
| tx-tmp | To no avail. ;_; | 14:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | did you use lazyflashing? | 14:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like an issue with bootloader | 14:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if youlike, I can talk you through a series of tests | 14:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prerequisites: you're using a linux PC | 14:41 |
| tx-tmp | Lazyflashing? You mean the .sh from the Wiki? I assumed bootloader issues as well, but cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow; didn't help). | 14:41 |
| tx-tmp | Yes, I'm on Linux. | 14:41 |
| tx-tmp | Would be very much appreciated. | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~lazyflashing | 14:42 |
| infobot | from memory, lazyflashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware#The_Lazy_Approach | 14:42 |
| tx-tmp | Didn't try. | 14:42 |
| tx-tmp | Just used the .deb flasher by hand. | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please try this first, it's the most siple and secure way to do flashing right | 14:42 |
| tx-tmp | I will! Thank you. | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) please report back here | 14:43 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 should try to move lazyflashing to maemo infra, just in case his server goes south some time | 14:44 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ouch >>cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow<< this _might_ have had an opposite effect | 14:46 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | you can zzztop -t=999999999 it? | 14:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tx-tmp: first thing to do: check your linux PC /var/log/syslog or /var/log/messages (or dmesg, worst case) for logs of powered down N900 getting connected to PC via USB | 14:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: yes, but I guess it won't dump statistics when you abort it, right? | 14:48 |
| sixwheeledbeast | oic | 14:48 |
| sixwheeledbeast | powertop is the same? I suppose it needs to calculate values over a set period of time | 14:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.ubuntu.com/24560254 | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, same | 14:51 |
| tx-tmp | It does show up in the systemlog, yes, and I didn't overwrite the bootloader (no worries there)! | 14:51 |
| tx-tmp | Anyhow, I tried lazyflashing | 14:51 |
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| tx-tmp | Final step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. :( | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, zzztop is perl | 14:51 |
| tx-tmp | It worked yesterday, by the way. Left it to charge overnight and it died. | 14:52 |
| tx-tmp | Might be relevant, or might not be, but I tried to save a video file which corrupted yesterday. | 14:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flatbatrecover | 14:52 |
| infobot | Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber shut off -> start over again with ~flatbatrecover while already searching for a new battery. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs OK (no ~bootloop) | 14:52 |
| tx-tmp | The weird thing is that the battery is full, and booting it in "charge mode" still seems to charge. | 14:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~bootloop | 14:53 |
| infobot | rumour has it, bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device. | 14:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((final step)) please provide full session log pastebin | 14:53 |
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| tx-tmp | @flatbat: Battery light is steady green. After leaving it on for a bit it does turn into a flashing amber light. (Odd sidenote: it turned into a green flashing light for a bit, too.) | 14:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lazyflashing shouldn't make "device boot as usualy" | 14:54 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I thought you knew it was perl? | 14:54 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~zzztop | 14:54 |
| infobot | zzztop is, like, - the better and even FOSS powertop - http://wiki.maemo.org/Zzztop | 14:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 14:54 |
| sixwheeledbeast | fatphil is the one to ask | 14:54 |
| tx-tmp | And it doesn't bootloop. Looks more like a freeze/panic. I have to pull the battery out before it can attempt to boot again (white LED fading on). | 14:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I thought it was perl, but I realized I have no idea how to patch perl ;-) | 14:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to get a trap in | 14:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (fatphil) I know :-) | 14:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I guess I can learn as much perl as needed for such simple patch | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tx-tmp: please compare http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/PC_syslog_of_USB_enum | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if those 3 stages are OK for your device, your bootloader should be OK and a lazyflashing should fix your issue | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if 3rd stage (maemo, idProduct=01c7) doesn't show, your bootloader still is OK and same as above applies | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if stage 2 (idProduct=0105) doesn't show, you need coldflashing | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | next test: hold 'u' key while plugging in powered-down device to USB, check if NOKIA screen with USB icon comes up | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if not, your battery is probably empty | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | green idicator light however is quite "strange" since it is a feature of maemo system already booted iirc. Shouldn't get set by NOLO nor hardware | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please allow 60s for booting | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | minimum | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after flashing, a few minutes with black screen are ok until system firstboot finished | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's all in comments printed by lazyflashing ;-) | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on low battery NOLO tries to directly boot into maemo system to charge battery, which is a very braindamaged thing to do when system is defect and needs reflash | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~bootloop | 15:09 |
| infobot | methinks bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device. | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bbl, busy | 15:10 |
| tx-tmp | https://ybin.me/p/a7ae44c55bfeb1d6#+ByyYq+Tg5YURtuAkgfb62VB5+4BlLWfHEyrYssgm6s= Looks fine to me. Reaches stage 3. | 15:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: first googlehit: http://perltricks.com/article/37/2013/8/18/Catch-and-Handle-Signals-in-Perl/ | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tx-tmp: yes | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try lazyflashing, follow the instructions verbatim | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't assume, don't connect device without being istructed to do so | 15:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | here's a browsable version of the script: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir_v2/flash-it-all.sh | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (([2017-05-12 Fri 13:51:40] <tx-tmp> Final step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. )) "A while" here means several minutes | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | did you answer "YES" (three chars UpperCase) to the question? | 15:29 |
| APic | lol | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tx-tmp: ooh, and for good measure, remove SIM and uSD | 15:36 |
| tx-tmp | Sorry, incomplete response, got a phone call from work so I was afk for a bit. | 15:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | uSD might have filesystems that impair the boot process when they are e.g. unknown or need fsck. SIM known to make boot process block in very rare cases | 15:37 |
| tx-tmp | I did lazyflash exactly according to instructions, sadly, the problem remains the same (as before flashing). | 15:37 |
| tx-tmp | I did answer YES and SIM/SD are removed. | 15:37 |
| KotCzarny | maybe you should log whole flashing session and pastebin it? | 15:38 |
| tx-tmp | It's just a normal flashing session, output is exactly as one would expect when looking at the .sh and assuming a non-faulty device. :) | 15:39 |
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| tx-tmp | The odd thing is that the screen doesn't turn on and it doesn't give the classical vibration/jolt upon boot. | 15:39 |
| tx-tmp | It's as if it gets stuck before that part... | 15:39 |
| KotCzarny | do you have spare battery? | 15:39 |
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| tx-tmp | I will try a different battery, I think I have a spare one at home. | 15:39 |
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| tx-tmp | Wouldn't be surprised if it's a battery issue. It's been showing up as being 0% full in the OS even when it was actually charged... | 15:40 |
| tx-tmp | Ancient little battery. | 15:40 |
| tx-tmp | Also, thanks for all the help Doc, very much appreciate it. | 15:40 |
| KotCzarny | mine is 8 years old, still using it ;) | 15:41 |
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| tx-tmp | Same! | 15:42 |
| KotCzarny | but it's charged, ie taken from working device? | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tx-tmp: please test the hold-Ukey thing | 15:43 |
| tx-tmp | Yeah, this battery works the N900 of a friend. | 15:43 |
| tx-tmp | Will do. | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if your NOLO doesn't show the NOKIA screen (without, then with backlight on), yur display is defect | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of NOLO is defect | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or* | 15:44 |
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| tx-tmp | No screen is shown whatsoever. | 15:45 |
| tx-tmp | I would accept the screen being broken, but it bugs me that the boot-vibration is also missing. | 15:45 |
| tx-tmp | Which is a different piece of HW. | 15:45 |
| KotCzarny | broken display shouldnt affect lack of vibra on powerup | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NOLO behaves strange when display not connected | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when NOLO can't initialize the display controller, it will not kick vibra afaik | 15:47 |
| tx-tmp | Mhm, interesting. Might actually be that the display died in that case. | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually cable | 15:47 |
| KotCzarny | swapping display part is 5 minutes of work | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flexcable | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flex | 15:47 |
| infobot | i guess flex is a sucky nick used by freaks, or flex is also the Fast Lexical analyzer generator. A Lex compatible scanner generator. | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~uselss | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues flex*cable | 15:48 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'flex*cable' by value (1): fract-o-rama. | 15:48 |
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| KotCzarny | ~fract-o-rama | 15:48 |
| infobot | Qt-based, flexible fractal generation program. URL: http://locutus.kingwoodcable.com/jfd/fractal/ | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues flat*cable | 15:48 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'flat*cable' by value (1): jargon boa. | 15:48 |
| KotCzarny | cute | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~fpc | 15:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues maemo*cable | 15:51 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'maemo*cable' by value returned no results. | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues cale*maemo | 15:51 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'cale*maemo' by value returned no results. | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues cable*maemo | 15:51 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'cable*maemo' by value returned no results. | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no idea | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seach in tmo | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually the flat plastic connector cable from display slide to mainboard, particularly the B2B conn 'plug' at end, which breaks | 15:53 |
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| tx-tmp | I'll try fixing that one, yeah. | 15:54 |
| tx-tmp | It was about time to buy a spare N900 anyway... | 15:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/BRAND-NEW-CAMERA-FLAT-MAIN-FLEX-CABLE-RIBBON-FOR-NOKIA-N900-C57R/32262531025.html?spm=2114.40010208.4.56.xrEOVs | 15:56 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~fixribbon | 16:08 |
| infobot | [fixribbon] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1324171#post1324171 | 16:09 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ? | 16:09 |
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| tx-tmp | Thanks. :) | 16:19 |
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| kerio | my mobile operator now has free national roaming for data ;o | 16:56 |
| kerio | all the 2G irc | 16:56 |
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| kerio | i have like barely any reason not to leave xchat open in perpetuity i guess | 16:59 |
| KotCzarny | two words: battery drain ? | 17:01 |
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| kerio | it's gprs tho | 17:03 |
| KotCzarny | see? battery drain | 17:04 |
| deepy | KotCzarny: compared to what? | 17:05 |
| KotCzarny | 3g | 17:05 |
| KotCzarny | and up | 17:05 |
| deepy | Are you saying the battery drain on gprs is greater than on 3g? | 17:06 |
| KotCzarny | yup, 2g time slots are big | 17:06 |
| Wizzup | with a passive conn? | 17:06 |
| Wizzup | or if you're using it actively | 17:06 |
| deepy | Actually, I can't argue this becuase I don't remember if I'm remembering the drain with or without HSPA :E | 17:07 |
| KotCzarny | also, being slower, it requires long transmit events | 17:09 |
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| KotCzarny | https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/44628/2g-versus-3g-does-it-really-save-battery | 17:10 |
| bencoh | KotCzarny: actually, no, definitely not (regarding gprs vs umts) | 17:10 |
| KotCzarny | funny numbers in 'data only' scenario | 17:10 |
| KotCzarny | and remember that with tcp there is much less idling when there is some connection going on | 17:11 |
| KotCzarny | as every packet requires answer | 17:12 |
| ShadowJK | The "lots of very small but frequent data transfers" category is missing from that link :) | 17:12 |
| KotCzarny | and i assume kerio sits on many channels | 17:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo flexcable is <reply>see fixribbon | 19:58 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flexcable | 19:58 |
| infobot | well, fixribbon is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1324171#post1324171 | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: national roaming?? | 20:00 |
| kerio | my operator is 3G-only | 20:00 |
| kerio | well, with some 4G | 20:00 |
| kerio | so it offered roaming on the 2G operator for a while | 20:00 |
| kerio | but data was not included | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we got that since... A-band here, and I have xchat open 25/7/365 | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we had like 4 primary operators, recently O2 bought out E-plus | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so now O2, Vodafone, Telekom | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everything else are minute resellers | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in the early days O2 (E1 band) used roaming on Telekom's D1 band in areas where they had no own coverage | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | via Swisscom ;-P | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now all three providers are nationwide coverage | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | some minute resellers offer roaming between 2 or 3 of the providers | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all 3 providers now use D and E bands as well as other (harmonized, so far) bands for UMTS | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | compare that to 3rd world telecom nations like USA where you need roaming to go from east LA to west LA | 20:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and in 4 weeks an EU-wide regulation forbids roaming primium charge in whole EU | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we have free roaming from Norway(?) to Ceuta (Spain, on Afrika) | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | byebye "Great" Britain | 20:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and all 3 providers provide all RATs from 2G to LTE | 20:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | they differ slightly in LTE max speed | 20:21 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Hello. I'd like to ask a few general things about Maemo architecture, and operating systems in general. Although I have Devuan booting on the N900, and now also X and gtk+ on top of it, I'm not sure I refer to all the OS components with their (strictly) correct names. Up to now I decided to follow a quite heuristic approach to OS's, in order to grab immediately a practical flavour of theoretical concepts. Now I got | 20:26 |
| Enrico_Menotti | that, and I have a few components in my hand, and I feel it's time to put some order on concepts. For sure what I will ask are very basic things, but I don't feel much ashamed for it - if I can get more sure of what I'm talking about, that would be good. Ok? | 20:26 |
| KotCzarny | ~ask | 20:29 |
| infobot | Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. | 20:29 |
| Enrico_Menotti | So first, a general question about OS architecture, in general. As I have been learning in the last few weeks, an OS is composed fundamentally by a kernel and a file system (possibly with an initial ram disk), and on top of that one may have a stack for running a desktop environment. Right? | 20:29 |
| Enrico_Menotti | KotCzarny (A minute, I'm asking.) | 20:30 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Now in common language I'm used to hear talking about "Linux" as an OS, with all its possible flavours (such as Debian, Devuan, Ubuntu, etc.). But if I got it right, strictly speaking the name "Linux" only defines the kernel, while the OS includes the file system as well. So this is the first point I'd like to be sure of. | 20:33 |
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| Enrico_Menotti | The second is about the term "Operating System": if I got it right, as stated above, it comprises *both* kernel and file system, but what about the desktop environment? Should it be considered part of the OS? | 20:35 |
| Enrico_Menotti | And now about Maemo specifically: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right? | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the correct name is usually GNU/Linux which is kernel, filesystem and userland basic system services | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually you consider the OS being kernel, filesystem drivers, and all the basic userland tools and processes/daemons/services | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OS (and several, but not all, available filesystems) are linux, while the userland stuff is GNU | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless it isn't, e.g upstart or systemd prolly isn't GNU | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~gnu | 20:40 |
| infobot | gnu is, like, an animal having a drooping beard. And it's also an antelope. | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MEH! | 20:40 |
| Enrico_Menotti | :D | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki GNU | 20:41 |
| infobot | At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{about|the operating system|the animal|Wildebeest|the free software project|GNU Project|other uses}} {{Infobox OS | logo = Heckert GNU white.svg | logo size = 100px | screenshot = HURD Live CD.png | caption = Debian GNU/Hurd console startup and login | family = Unix-like | developer = Community | source model = Free software | marketing target = Personal computers, mobile devices, ... | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no, a desktop isn't usually considered a tightly OS-related component | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though some DEs only run on a particular OS, many are pretty OS-agnostic, I think KDE even runs on windows ;-D | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Apple's OS is not linux (and even less GNU), but it's still a unix of sorts, and stuff like KDE and GNU tools work on OS-X | 20:46 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok, so fundamentally OS = kernel + filesystem management + services, right? | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's one common denominator nowadays and that's POSIX which defines systemcalls that are identical on all POSIX compliant systems, no matter if GNU/linux or GNU/hurd or *BSD or OS-X or windows | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's quite right | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *usually* you get a OS bundled with a wealth of userland applications made to run on that OS | 20:52 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok, now about "Linux". Is it just the kernel? Or also the filesystem management? And services are excluded from the "Linux" definition, being referred to as "GNU"? | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so many people refer to both the OS and the apps when they talk about their (operating) System | 20:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a tough question, see above | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy | 20:54 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ah so that's not well defined, right? (I read both things here and there over the web.) | 20:55 |
| Enrico_Menotti | In the last link you posted, e.g., they talk about "Linux kernel". | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for shits & giggles, read about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | running gag: is Hurd already released? | 20:58 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok so it's not just me having no clear ideas. Nice to hear. :) | 21:00 |
| Enrico_Menotti | About Maemo: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right? | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the kernel of maemo is pretty much a plain upstream linux kernel, though Nokia added a few device drivers that were not (initially) upstreamed and thus considered Nokia-specific (though thery are FOSS) by some | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the file systems are plain upstream | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the file system drivers that is | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | often people call a disk image a "filesystem" | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the desktop environment is Hildon which is based on a X11 flavor called matchbox iirc, with a window manager/desktop manager developed by Nokia on top | 21:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | (the latter would be hildon-desktop, hildon-home, etc) | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | matchbox is upstream | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, hildon uses gtk2+ modified for the usecase | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper lernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/lernel/kernel/ | 21:09 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper kernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | another huge part is the stack of libs and daemons that talks to the modem | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a thitd is the stuff related to the OMAP DSP | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | third* | 21:11 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Digital Signal Processor? | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 21:11 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok. | 21:11 |
| Enrico_Menotti | The part for the modem, is that open source or not? | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope, closed | 21:12 |
| Enrico_Menotti | :( | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 21:12 |
| Enrico_Menotti | So up to now the only OS which is able to use the N900 as a cell phone is Maemo? | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are replacements like ofono but they are not plug-in replacement for the existing stuff, they have different concept and API | 21:13 |
| Wizzup | Enrico_Menotti: no | 21:13 |
| Wizzup | some people have been able to make calls | 21:13 |
| Wizzup | albeit crappy quality | 21:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | useful: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/System_Software http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture | 21:15 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok, thank you for the *very* useful info. Nice talk. Now I have to go - I will ask some more in the next few days, although I will be a bit busy with Special Relativity :) . | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Multimedia_Domain | 21:16 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Great diagrams, btw. I had already seen something, but did not read carefully, I admit. | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Special Relativity is simpler than maemo ;-P | 21:26 |
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