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| DocScrutinizer05 | apropos twinkle: funny what stuff I wrote a nearly 10 years ago http://paste.ubuntu.com/24396559 | 00:48 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly even older since that file is already migrated from a yet older box/system | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meanwhile both bash and I learned how to do such multithreaded stuff a tad smarter | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and SIP registrars learned to not listen to the IP announced in SIP messages and rather use STUN/ICE and server assisted SIP to establish a call even to clients behind NAT | 00:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and nobody really does direct IP2IP VoIP (without registrar) anymore | 00:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if anybody except me ever did | 00:55 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: yeah because SIP is a shit protocol | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not really. Just complex | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and not made from beginning with stuff like roaming and all sorts of nasty NATs in mind | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SMTP is a real shit protocol ;-D | 01:00 |
| kerio | at least SMTP uses one connection :< | 01:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ftp doesn't | 01:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, multiple ports are actually a nightmare. at least in SIP you can fix the ports to use | 01:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | for ftp you have *lots* of fun with NATs | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also for IRC DCC btw | 01:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which is in many aspects similar to SIP VoIP | 01:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | A initiating a ftp file transfer from B to C is very similar to SIP A connecting B and C in a call, by A either forwarding a inbound call or steeping out of a 3way-conference | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the problem always is NATs don't open receive ports, that's why they are considered a good safeguard against active attacks from 'outside' but that implies they also are a problem for stuff like ftp or SIP | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | VPN is just a glorified distributed NAT | 01:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so you have exactly same issues like with any other (local) NAT | 01:23 |
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| Enrico_Menotti | Hello guys, hope you had a nice Easter day. | 01:38 |
| Enrico_Menotti | I'm trying to learn the last couple of things from Debian before switching to Devuan. | 01:38 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Now I have a strange issue about key mapping. I have been able to map some symbols to the fourth level. But with my surprise, the fourth level is not working for the keys a, z and x. And just for them - the rest is working. | 01:40 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Anybody know about a similar issue? | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard | 01:42 |
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| Enrico_Menotti | I read it (without thinking too much about the details...). If I got it, Sh-Fn-x and Sh-Fn-z produce the same hardware event. So it is not possible to map them to different symbols. Is this right? | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I just closed it so can't tell if z/x is right. The rest is correct | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | note that this stuff is merely deduced from schematics, I didn't verify against device behavior when I wrote it | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway this is generally one of the reasons to use "sticky qualifier keys", like shift-down shift up a-down a-up -> uppercase-A | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this works in maemo for shift and blue, not though for ctrl. And I think it doesn't work in the generic debian kbd driver either | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the canonical pattern is (not found in maemo): press qualifier once: sticky for next keypress (like explained above). Press qualifier twice: lock (like capslock for pressing shift twice). With lock engaged any further press of the qualifier key will unlock and not create sticky state | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so for repeated pressing a qualifier, the sequence is sticky -> locked -> off -> sticky -> locked -> off ->... | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh sorry, maemo DOES that too | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it kist lacks to show recent state, though that had been very very easy via indicator LED | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just* | 02:11 |
| Enrico_Menotti | Ok, thank you, got it. Would be interesting to enable these sticky qualifier keys in Debian as well. But it's not necessary, so I won't investigate further. | 02:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *think* maemo does it on X11 level | 02:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not sure though | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | could as well be kernel level | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pr anything intermediate. keybpard service layering is a mystery to me. I have studied it from bottom to top a dozen times already and each single time I forgot about bottom details when I reached top | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or* | 02:19 |
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| Enrico_Menotti | :) | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, maybe useful (for me and my problem): https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/116629/how-do-keyboard-input-and-text-output-work | 02:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | >>The device file transmits key up/down events with a scan code, which may or may not be identical to the value transmitted by the hardware (the kernel may translate the scan code from a keyboard-dependent value to a common value, and Linux doesn't retransmit the scan codes that it doesn't know).<< | 02:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | now it gets funny only with >>There are two mechanisms to configure the mapping from keycodes to keysyms:<< | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's also http://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes-8.html#kccb2 and http://compsoc.man.ac.uk/~shep/pedals.html which I bookmarked for a particular reason. The latter might be interesting for you too | 02:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | evtest is rather great | 02:53 |
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| Maxdamantus | Maemo does it at the HIM level. | 03:39 |
| Maxdamantus | (the sticky keys mechanism) | 03:40 |
| Maxdamantus | HIM = hildon-input-method | 03:40 |
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| sicelo | i thought pagurus was going to test his irc stuff elesewhere ... | 10:08 |
| KotCzarny | is he even alive? | 10:09 |
| sicelo | you mean online now? no | 10:27 |
| sicelo | but i think yesterday he promised something to that effect | 10:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again spam? | 10:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | holler if you want sth getting fone about it, I don't see such stuff | 10:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/fone/done/ | 10:46 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: holler if you want sth getting done about it, I don't see such stuff | 10:46 |
| KotCzarny | it seems to got fixed, for now | 10:48 |
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| sicelo | 01:11 < DocScrutinizer05> it kist lacks to show recent state, though that had been very very easy via indicator LED | 11:04 |
| sicelo | 01:11 < DocScrutinizer05> just* | 11:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so? | 11:05 |
| sicelo | possibly deemed unnecessary as Maemo resets that sticky state as son as another program comes to the foreground | 11:05 |
| sicelo | so it's not global | 11:05 |
| sicelo | (as soon as ... ) | 11:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, that's both puzzling and a flawed design, and doesn't really jelp with making lock state more clear | 11:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, Nokia thought that notifier banner was sufficient | 11:06 |
| sicelo | it's only sticky while you're actually in the program you 'stickied' in .. so you know what you did :) | 11:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that notifier only shows up for like 2 seconds | 11:07 |
| KotCzarny | led backlight under sticky keys would be sweet | 11:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | shit no! | 11:07 |
| sicelo | KotCzarny: perhaps neo900 should have it ;) | 11:08 |
| KotCzarny | who knows? | 11:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same rationale applied to dialer would result in "why display the number you're typing, you know what you're doing" | 11:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: have waht? | 11:08 |
| sicelo | < KotCzarny> led backlight under sticky keys would be sweet | 11:08 |
| sicelo | ^^ | 11:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 is planned with 3color backlight and 3 monocrome indicator LEDs next to the leftmost keys | 11:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd probably prefer backlight switching from white to orange on capslock and from white to blue on Fn | 11:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, we will try to employ one or 2 of the indicator LEDs left of keyboard for that | 11:11 |
| sicelo | (personally i rarely, if ever, look at the state of my Caps Lock indicator on computer/laptop ... just saying) | 11:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it particularly sucks when you accidentally locked shift. You notice one char UC, then you wonder if it was sticky and thus reset or it's locked. So you type a second char just to check. Or you press shit again, just to learn it been sticky and you made another sticky | 11:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you press shift as long as notifier shows up, and then once more >:-( | 11:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whatever you do, it's an annoyance | 11:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and God beware you're facing this situation in stuff similar to NM, where one keypress causes an action you can't revert, and there are UC and lc keys with different meaning | 11:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BM* | 11:17 |
| sicelo | i don't think sticky keys work there, isn't it? | 11:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in BM not | 11:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that's because there's no system at all at that point | 11:18 |
| sicelo | yes | 11:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though I didn't test, maybe it does (when it's getting handled in kernel kbd driver) | 11:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((i rarely, if ever, look at the state of my Caps Lock)) you also rarely press shift twice to emulate capslock on your PC, right? | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | call my old and senile nut I happened to press shift, then release it since I started to wonder if I _really_ wanted to type that char (for whatever reason, be it wording or the door ringing), then a few seconds or minutes later I press shift again, plus a char, then on next char I start swearing | 11:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if any state in a computer is sticky, you need feedback about what's the current state. If it's a sticky state in a HID, you need feedback directly on the HID and constantly | 11:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you won't prolly find a single keyboard whit capslock, scroll lock, numlock, and no LEDs for showing the state. Unless it's one of those age old keyboards that actually have mechanical toggle pushbuttons that "stay pressed" mechanically and visibly until you push them again | 11:30 |
| KotCzarny | onscreen-ontop-sticky display could work too (for some people, so definitely as an option) | 11:35 |
| Maxdamantus | only sticky thing I use on a normal computer is numlock .. sometimes use mouse buttons and need to have it in some state for that. | 11:35 |
| Maxdamantus | can't remember which state does which, I just press numlock until it works the way I want. | 11:36 |
| Maxdamantus | capslock is instead mapped to F13, and dunno what scrolllock does. | 11:36 |
| Maxdamantus | Interesting. Apparently scroll lock freezes console output in Linux. Good to know. | 11:39 |
| Maxdamantus | Presumably at a lower level than something like ctrl-s | 11:39 |
| Maxdamantus | oh wait, it's just another way of writing ctrl-s | 11:39 |
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| jonwil | hi | 11:41 |
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| KotCzarny | lol, that's why it's called SCROLL LOCK | 11:53 |
| KotCzarny | ;) | 11:53 |
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| Maxdamantus | but ctrl-s doesn't exactly lock the scroll. | 12:17 |
| Maxdamantus | it blocks any output. | 12:17 |
| KotCzarny | it's from the times when screens were the teletypes | 12:21 |
| KotCzarny | and virtual consoles emulate it | 12:22 |
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| merlin1991 | you won't prolly find a single keyboard whit capslock, scroll lock, numlock, and no LEDs for showing the state ... my acer notebook | 13:01 |
| merlin1991 | *headdesks* | 13:02 |
| KotCzarny | merlin1991: some chinese and laptop kb ;) | 13:04 |
| KotCzarny | hp/lenovo they suck at it and removed useful indicators (*locks and hdd activity often) | 13:04 |
| merlin1991 | The acer still has the hdd led, but no lock leds :/ | 13:05 |
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| CcxWrk | What is the current way to get stock N900 install up to date? | 13:19 |
| kerio | CSSU | 13:19 |
| kerio | https://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | 13:20 |
| CcxWrk | Thanks | 13:20 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: my SIP over vpn thing is unreliable if i don't redirect the whole internet through the VPN :( | 14:09 |
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| KotCzarny | then do that? problem solved | 14:11 |
| kerio | nah i should set up asterisk | 14:12 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: my brain hurts :< | 15:16 |
| KotCzarny | have you tried turning your brain off and on again? | 15:17 |
| kerio | this shit is worse than sendmail | 15:22 |
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| xes | kerio: have tried to fix the account ip with mc-toll? have you enable sip/rtp conntracking into your home router? | 16:09 |
| xes | *mc-tool | 16:09 |
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| Enrico_Menotti | Ok, I have Debian running on the n900, keyboard quite fine, and wifi access. Also ssh. I'd like to adjust a couple of things, and then I'll move towards Devuan. | 18:10 |
| Enrico_Menotti | 1. I have been able to customise the keyboard by editing the symbols file (<xkbroot>/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-51) and running setupcon. But before that I had to remove the cached files in /etc/console-setup. If I run setupcon with the --save option, these files are recreated. But the system somehow doesn't use them - setupcon keeps on creating a new tmp file and loading that. | 18:13 |
| Enrico_Menotti | 2. The wireless driver seems to generate a new mac address in a random way at each boot. So the system keeps on creating new wlan interfaces at each reboot. I'd like to have the wlan named wlan0 at each boot. I think I have to edit /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules. But so far the only way I have found to reference the wireless device is via the mac address. How may I reference it in a unique way? | 18:15 |
| Enrico_Menotti | 3. I tried to install usbutils and run lsusb, but that fails. From some debugging, I found out that the system doesn't find usbfs. Is it possible that Pali's rx51_defconfig file does not enable usb support? | 18:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's all very much OT for maemo | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW in maemo we either don't have the problem or we have a working solution, for all your "debian problem" points you listed so far | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~h-e-n | 18:52 |
| infobot | i guess hen is hostmode-easy-now, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232, or see ~hostmode | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~hostmode | 18:52 |
| infobot | hostmode is probably http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=652330, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkCDyUO0sKQ, or see ~hostmode-powered | 18:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW with a stock kernel you're *always* out of luck with USBhostmode on N900 | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wasted over a year into solving this issue | 19:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=643577 | 19:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qecPQ0FB-64 | 22:54 |
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| sicelo | context? | 23:03 |
| sicelo | haha that's a crazy thing | 23:07 |
| Maxdamantus | Enrico_Menotti: if you're just trying to use the device as a USB gadget, you'd load one of the g_ modules. | 23:10 |
| Maxdamantus | Enrico_Menotti: a USB device is traditionally meant to be a gadget or a host, not both. | 23:11 |
| Maxdamantus | though N900's controller happens to be able to work as both. | 23:11 |
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