IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2017-01-15

freemangordonPali: there is nothing on gitorious valhala :(00:03
freemangordonprojects are listed, but that's it00:03
freemangordon"404 - No projects found "00:03
Paligit clone worked fine00:04
Palion original uri00:04
Paliat least about month ago00:04
Paliwhich project are you trying to find?00:04
freemangordonbut I don't know the original url, otherwise I want sapwood00:05
freemangordonhttps://gitorious.org/maemo-af/sapwood.git/00:05
freemangordon"fatal: repository 'https://gitorious.org/maemo-af/sapwood.git/' not found"00:06
Palilooks like gitorious is not working now :-(00:06
Palimaemo.org infra has backup of all maemo repos00:07
freemangordonPali: didn't we have a backup of that? I am sure we had00:07
Paliso ask merlin199100:07
freemangordonany clue on which server?00:07
freemangordonI have acces to the servers00:07
Palion some backup00:07
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NeKithttps://sendvid.com/lm3ngj9p - no input yet and size is wrong, but at least it starts :)00:48
freemangordonNeKit: "Терминал"? where are you from?01:13
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freemangordonNeKit: that page makes my adblocker go crazy :)01:15
xesfreemangordon: gitorious backups are saved into stage01:24
freemangordonxes: yep, already found them :)01:25
xesok01:25
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OksanaaWould upgrading kernel-power be dangerous for N900 with broken charging port?04:40
OksanaaCurrent kernel seems to be 2.6.28-10power52 , thumb04:42
MaxdamantusYou should probably install u-boot.04:45
Maxdamantusrather than just another kernel.04:45
Maxdamantusthat way if your userland is messed up you can boot something off an SD card to fix it.04:45
OksanaaNot installing, upgrading. Kernel-power is already here, just haven't upgraded it for a long time.04:48
OksanaaU-boot... No idea. We might have one SD card somewhere.04:49
OksanaaIs multiboot the one which increases chances of device being bricked?04:49
MaxdamantusThe point of u-boot if you don't have USB anymore is that if your system no longer boots you can probably still recover by booting something like RescueOS then getting the rest of the system back to a state that works.04:49
OksanaaBecause one device with broken  charging port became "Guru" brick on kernel upgrade due to something-boot conflicting with kernel upgrade.04:50
OksanaaIf u-boot is safe, will install it.04:50
Maxdamantussince if your system just stops booting due to a misconfigured file in /etc or something, you might not be able to recover again without getting access to the USB pins.04:50
OksanaaOr rootfs being full ^04:51
MaxdamantusYes, I can imagine that being an issue too.04:51
OksanaaWhich package? *Grimace* too many things displayed by apt-cache search u-boot04:53
MaxdamantusDunno. I've always just used flasher from a computer (which obviously uses USB)04:54
Maxdamantusand use my own compilation of u-boot.04:54
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OksanaaBootloader, right? Not just companion tools04:55
MaxdamantusIt would be the bootloader, yes. The companion tools are probably things like `mkimage`04:56
MaxdamantusUsually with u-boot on N900, there'll be a kernel written after u-boot itself.04:57
OksanaaWhat would be the minimum installation of bootloader, the least risky one? Which gives option to boot from SD card if one is installed?04:58
MaxdamantusI think all the N900 builds that are likely to be distributed will have an entry in pali's bootmenu system to load something from the SD card.04:59
OksanaaWhat is bootmenu? Part of u-boot?05:00
MaxdamantusDo you have another N900 to experiment with beforehand?05:00
OksanaaU-boot-flasher says it will replace existing kernel05:00
OksanaaNot at hand05:00
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MaxdamantusIt's a menu in u-boot, so when you turn the device on, you can choose to boot the appended kernel or run a script from the first partition of the SD card, etc05:02
OksanaaI just want a u-boot which will not try to confli05:02
Oksanaa conflict with kernel-power05:03
MaxdamantusYeah, so you'd probably want one that has the version of kernel-power you want included.05:03
MaxdamantusThough it might be better ultimately to have a boot partition on eMMC that holds your kernels, so you don't have to reflash anything when you want to upgrade.05:05
Oksanaa u-boot-for-power-kernel sounds like it constructs the image, not like it pre-includes it05:05
OksanaaInstalling bootmenu05:09
OksanaaInstalling bootmenu05:09
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OksanaaChanged battery. Bootmenu installed. It doesn't conflict kernel-power, right? How to check whether it auto-detects SD card to boot from?05:16
OksanaaLeds are still not working, all the same. Wonder what the problem is...05:19
MaxdamantusWhen I say "bootmenu", I mean the one in u-boot, not the userland "bootmenu" that exists in some Maemo package.05:20
MaxdamantusDoes `lsmod` show `leds_lp5523`?05:21
Oksanaalsmod | grep lp leds_lp5523            10048  0 led_class               3460  2 leds_lp5523,leds_twl4030_vibra05:22
OksanaaSame on your side? Any way to see errors of kernel modules? Because kernel modules for lp5523 exist, but lp5523 do not appear in /sys/class/leds05:30
MaxdamantusYes, same here.05:31
OksanaaAt least, vibrator works, that's good.05:31
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OksanaaIt's all confusing. u-boot (lots of packages), backupmenu (potentially useful, auto-notices SD card?), multiboot (not good with kernel-power), recovery-boot, nitdroid-installer (not needed atm?), bootmenu and bootmenu-n90006:34
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Michael_a380Bagged the n9 for $10.50.  :)  Will pick-up during the week. Can a sim card be tested without the door?08:56
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hurrianMichael_a380: you _could_, definitely do not recommend it though. you'll end up having to fish it out of the SIM cage if you do it wrong09:05
OksanaaBetter just get the SIM tray. Shipping may cost, though.09:12
OksanaaUnless you want to drill the SIM card and put a thread through it, to make it easier to get SIM card out... But margin for error is small, make sure to not damage the SIM card.09:14
MaxdamantusDoesn't seem *that* small, given that practically any SIM card you buy is just a nano-SIM inside a micro-SIM inside a mini-SIM inside a full size SIM.09:17
MaxdamantusLooks like there's a decent amount of room in the mini-SIM part to drill a small hole.09:18
Maxdamantus(the relevance of the nano-SIM thing is that there is obviously no circuitry around the nano-SIM portion)09:20
OksanaaDon't remember size of SIM for N9, but it's smaller than size of SIM for N900.09:21
Michael_a380thanks09:22
MaxdamantusIt's a micro-SIM.09:22
Maxdamantuser, I meant there's a decent amount of room in the micro-SIM part, not the mini-SIM part.09:23
Maxdamantusdon't think you could fit a mini-SIM in the slot.09:23
Maxdamantusthough if you can figure out the dimensions, I imagine you could sand down a mini-SIM so it fits properly in the slot, probably with something behind it to wedge it in place.09:24
* Maxdamantus doesn't want to recommend it.09:24
OksanaaYes, microsim does still have some good space.09:26
Michael_a380Very helpful, thanks. I probably not risk it.09:36
Michael_a380*I'll09:36
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NeKitfreemangordon, Russia. As for ads, sorry, mine just silently blocked them all :)10:34
bencohfreemangordon: wasn't gitorious supposed to be fully archived by archive.org at some point?10:41
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KotCzarny'Oksanaa  > At least, vibrator works, that's good.'10:48
* KotCzarny snickers10:48
freemangordonbencoh: it was....10:56
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bencohfreemangordon: did you check archive.org then?11:24
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hurrian"vibrator works, that's good"12:58
hurrianheh12:58
KotCzarnyvroom12:58
totalizator^ x212:59
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Vajbhmm somehow ifconfig is lost from my device13:39
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Vajblol forgot to be root13:40
Vajbscratch that13:40
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OksanaaTried apkenv 42.4.0 for Fremantle from TMO, doesn't seem to work. With Petals Redux.apk, just opens a black/blank window... And slows everything down.13:42
OksanaaUsing GLES version 2, it says. Any dependencies I should have installed?13:44
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Wizzupbencoh: by archive team, I think14:15
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bencohWizzup: indeed14:23
Wizzup(they are not archive.org fyi)14:24
bencohright, they're not exactly archive.org14:24
bencohafaiu either the archive team or one of the archive team member is supposed to maintain it14:24
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GoNeLHi! can anyone please tell me which groups normal user is assign to? I miss -a option when adding User to sudo group and now I cant root (sudo: gainroot: command not found)15:02
ceeneGoNeL: your problem is not of group assignment15:05
ceeneis that gainroot isn't installed15:05
ceenecommand not found15:05
KotCzarnyceene, maybe path issue?15:05
KotCzarnyie. gainroot modifying user profile or something?15:05
KotCzarnybut yeah, checking if its installed is also good idea15:05
ceenecould be, but...15:05
GoNeLit is because before doing thar i just have to write root and rootsh do the job for me15:05
ceenei don't have my n900 here right now15:06
KotCzarnyi use rootsh anyway15:06
KotCzarnyor ssh -l root15:06
GoNeLi'm sshing it right now with root account15:06
KotCzarnyim having weird issue with oscp on n8x015:07
KotCzarnywhen running as root, audio is ok15:07
KotCzarnywhen running as user its garbled, as if byte order swapped15:07
KotCzarnycant even begin to think what could be the problem15:08
KotCzarnyahm. stupid me.15:10
freemangordonPali: are you sure the stuff in /etc/init.d is not executed on maemo?15:11
PaliIIRC no15:11
Paliupstart does not have "native" support for /etc/rc*.d/15:12
freemangordonPali: because in /etc/inittab there is inittab:l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 215:12
Paliit is "emulated" by upstart service which execute then it15:12
freemangordonbut still, the result is that /etc/init.d/* services are getting executed15:13
PaliI'm not sure if upstart even use inittab15:13
Palimaybe Maemo or Debian upstart doing something different15:13
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freemangordonPali: but then, why there are so much things in /etc/init.d?15:18
Paliprobably legacy15:18
Palifrom debian or older maemo15:18
freemangordonhmm. there is no clockd in /etc/event.d15:19
KotCzarnyarent there some compatibility job that would run them?15:19
freemangordonlooks loke15:20
freemangordonbut then, thing are gitting weird15:20
freemangordonfor example sapwood-server is executed by bot /etc/X11/Xsession.post and /etc/init.d/af-services15:22
KotCzarnybut tbh on all my debian boxes i remove systemd and install sysvinit15:22
freemangordonI can't grok what's going on here :(15:24
KotCzarnygrep upstart scrips for init string?15:24
KotCzarnymaybe some binary executes them directly15:25
bencohhmmm, isn't maemo init system a hybrid (upstart+sysv)?15:25
freemangordonKotCzarny: doesn;t matter, the point is that sapwood-server is started from 2 places15:26
freemangordonbencoh: no idea15:26
freemangordonbut looks like15:26
bencohiirc both upstart scripts and regular init scripts are interpreted15:26
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KotCzarnyadd 'echo $0 >>/tmp/rclog;date >>/tmp/rclog' everywhere?15:27
freemangordonKotCzarny: what for?15:27
KotCzarnyto pinpoint at which point those sapwood things run?15:28
freemangordonI anm not interseted in who starts it, but why it is started twice15:28
freemangordonI know when is it started15:28
KotCzarnywhat happens if you run it third time? graceful exit?15:28
freemangordonthe problem is that it seems to be firs started from a script in /etc/init.d, before there is X running15:29
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freemangordonand of it fails15:29
freemangordon*ofc15:29
KotCzarnydisable it and check if system still works?15:29
freemangordon:(15:29
freemangordonbefore knowing why it is like that?15:30
KotCzarnymaybe if x/wm dies its just for restarting?15:30
freemangordonI doubt15:30
freemangordonif X dies on maemo, you got a reboot15:30
KotCzarnywhat is sapwood for anyway?15:30
freemangordonKotCzarny: https://github.com/fremantle-gtk2/sapwood15:31
KotCzarnyso, pixmap server?15:34
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DocScrutinizer05GoNeL: watch out with sudo! it doesn't work the way you might think15:36
DocScrutinizer05actually messing with etc/sudoers is one of the most frequent reasons for bootloop15:37
freemangordonPali: what if dsmetool is asked to start the same binary twice?15:37
GoNeLi'm not understanding what is going on here... maybe it was the problem..15:37
Palido not know :-) need to test15:37
GoNeLyou know how can i revert it? I remove User from sudo group (27) but nothing changed15:38
freemangordonmaybe this is it - all those mutiple starts are through dsmetool and it just ignores the request when the binary is already started15:38
GoNeLcannot edit PATH, permission dennied15:38
KotCzarnyfmg, disable from sysvinit and/or upstart and check what stops working15:39
bencohhmm, I am sudoers (with password) on my n900, and it works15:39
freemangordonKotCzarny: no, I'd rather check when is stuff in /etc/init.d started on maemo15:41
KotCzarnysee? told you to add rclog15:41
KotCzarny:)15:41
DocScrutinizer05check out update-sudoers script!  Froups are not the problem. Our problem is very old sudo which is pimped to act like newer one, with scripts15:43
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# which update-sudoers15:43
DocScrutinizer05/usr/sbin/update-sudoers15:43
DocScrutinizer05~jrtools15:44
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools15:44
bencohright, I checked update-sudoers beforehand and added it properly15:44
bencohdon't remember where though15:44
bencohah, in sudoers.d15:45
GoNeLNokia-N900:~# update-sudoers15:47
GoNeLNokia-N900:~# which update-sudoers15:47
GoNeLit's /usr/sbin/update-sudoers15:48
bencohread it, see /etc/sudoers.d/15:51
DocScrutinizer05tl;dr: never edit /etc/sudoers !15:52
DocScrutinizer05if you want to edit sth about sudo, do it in /etc/sudoers.d/* (ideally your own file you add there) - then **run update-sudoers**15:53
DocScrutinizer05then check if sudo still works as supposed, **while keeping a root shell open, to revert what you messed up**15:54
DocScrutinizer05about groups, see `man sudoers` - and keep in mind what you just learned from reading update-sudo script15:56
DocScrutinizer05you can find some very terse hints in15:56
DocScrutinizer05~jrtools15:56
infobotit has been said that jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools15:56
DocScrutinizer05on a broader note: I don't know if I ever heard of a really 100% successful add of new user (except 'root' and 'user') in maemo15:58
DocScrutinizer05a full interactibe user account != user|root might not work like expected, occasionally15:58
DocScrutinizer05interactive*15:59
GoNeLok thnks, i'ĺl it!15:59
DocScrutinizer05there's a lot of tricky stuff about users, in maemo15:59
DocScrutinizer05e.g. you should be *very* careful of redefining *user* shell, while root's shell is mostly harmless to redefine16:00
DocScrutinizer05~liskeys sudo16:01
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys sudo16:01
infobotFactoid search of 'sudo' by key (6): cmd: sudo (.*?) ;; sudo get me a sandwich ;; sudo path ;; sudo ;; sudo get me a sandwitch #DEL# ;; sudo make me a sandwich.16:01
DocScrutinizer05~sudo16:01
infobot[~sudo] Better than su, according to talon. It allows a permitted user to execute a command as the superuser or another user, as specified in the sudoers file. Or can allow you to do silly things like run X11 apps with root privileges; also good in scripts with "username ALL = NOPASSWD: /some/program", or http://www.aplawrence.com/Basics/sudo.html, or good for ordering sandwiches, or not pseudo16:01
DocScrutinizer05~sudo make me a sandwich16:03
infobotmake me a sandwich: sudo make docscrutinizer05 a sandwich.16:03
GoNeLlol16:03
DocScrutinizer05I recently learned that there's a risk I become a sandwich whe doing this16:04
* DocScrutinizer05 doesn't want to be a sandwich16:04
bencohsudo turn DocScrutinizer05 into a sandwich16:04
DocScrutinizer05wasn't there a `make cow` or sth?16:05
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DocScrutinizer05bencoh: weird: I thought xkcd was native speaker. https://xkcd.com/149/16:06
DocScrutinizer05so why did he use this very ambiguous form?16:07
DocScrutinizer05GoNeL: re sudo - what is it exactly you want to achieve?16:09
sixwheeledbeast^infobot slap sudo16:10
* infobot slaps sudo, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!16:10
* DocScrutinizer05 also idly wonders if we might get decent contemporary sudo in CSSU, instead of this obsolete bitrotten shit and update-sudoaers could get lost in a place nobody ever again remembers16:11
DocScrutinizer05a new decent sudo would allow smart stuff like wrapping up HAM into sudo16:12
DocScrutinizer05**WITH PASSWORD**16:12
freemangordonPali: bencoh: KotCzarny: mystery revealed - maemo supports both upstart and init.d scripts, the same goes for devuan. the difference is that in devuan there must be LSB header for the correct startup order16:13
DocScrutinizer05     -A, --askpass16:15
DocScrutinizer05                 Normally, if sudo requires a password, it will read it from the user's terminal.  If the -A (askpass) option is specified, a (possibly graphical) helper program is exe-16:15
DocScrutinizer05                 cuted to read the user's password and output the password to the standard output.16:15
bencohfreemangordon: :)16:17
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DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# sudo -A /bin/true16:19
DocScrutinizer05sudo: illegal option `-A'16:19
GoNeLguys I might have to become religious and thank god or something, i dont know why but now it just start working!16:19
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# l `which sudo`16:21
DocScrutinizer05-rwsr-xr-x 2 root root 91584 2009-04-17 10:50 /usr/bin/sudo16:21
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# sudo -V16:21
DocScrutinizer05Sudo version 1.6.8p1216:21
DocScrutinizer05GoNeL: you forgot to run update-suoers and you rebooted which does that for you16:21
KotCzarnyfmg: that's good, because i bet there are still people using sysvinit (/me being one of them)16:22
DocScrutinizer05odds however are that after reboot it doesn't 'magically work' but rather any fsckup you introduced causes a bootloop16:22
DocScrutinizer05that's why you *ALWAYS* run update-sudoers after messing with sudo16:23
DocScrutinizer05as I explained above16:23
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DocScrutinizer05`less /usr/sbin/update-sudoers` -- really _highly_ recommended16:24
GoNeLyeah i think that was my problem16:25
GoNeLthank yo DocScrutinizer0516:25
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: freemangordon: could we get sudo >1.8 in CSSU? pretty please!16:28
DocScrutinizer05and nuke that update-suoers shite then, since it's not needed anymore for >=1.816:29
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DocScrutinizer05it would also speed up boottime by prolly 0.73 seconds, _and: add "sudo -A" option and the equivalent askpass function to 5 sudoers16:32
DocScrutinizer05if sudo.conf(5) contains a line specifying the askpass program, that value will be used.  For example:16:33
DocScrutinizer05                     # Path to askpass helper program16:33
DocScrutinizer05                     Path askpass /usr/X11R6/bin/ssh-askpass16:33
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: Pali: we could change stuff like "%users ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/libexec/apt-worker" to do proper asking for (root!) password then16:36
DocScrutinizer05would most likely work like a charm :-)16:37
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DocScrutinizer05GoNeL: note that visudo is pointless on maemo (for interactive use), since you're _not_ supposed to ever edit the file /etc/sudoers16:42
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DocScrutinizer05GoNeL: you still could use `visudo -f /etc/sudoers.d/mysudo` but since you're supposed to run update-sudoers after any such edit anyway, it's quite pointless16:46
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DocScrutinizer05and honestly what is this (last line in my /etc/sudoers.d/01sudo):  "user ALL = (install) NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/app-installer-tool"17:03
DocScrutinizer05o.O17:03
bencohhmm17:03
bencoh?17:03
KotCzarnyhmm, how one takes screenshot on n8x0 ?17:03
DocScrutinizer05I wonder if *I* added that nonsense eventually17:04
DocScrutinizer05there's no /usr/bin/app-installer-tool17:04
DocScrutinizer05of course also no user "install"17:06
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if some crap like fapman or whatever might have done `echo "user ALL = (install) NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/app-installer-tool" >>/etc/sudoers.d/01sudo` in postinst17:07
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DocScrutinizer05`grep "01sudo" /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.postinst` -->zilch17:11
DocScrutinizer05bencoh: could you please check last line in your /etc/sudoers.d/01sudo17:11
bencohsame thing17:13
DocScrutinizer05duh!17:13
DocScrutinizer05wtf is this?17:13
bencohlegacy stuff maybe17:13
DocScrutinizer05prolly, yes17:13
DocScrutinizer05maemo4 actually?17:22
* DocScrutinizer05 finally needs to fix his N810 rootfs17:22
DocScrutinizer05it's embarrassing it eventually started bootlooping and I never got around to fixing that17:24
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DocScrutinizer05grrr http://maemo.org/packages/view/sudo/17:39
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DocScrutinizer05https://github.com/search?q=org%3Acommunity-ssu+sudo  :-/17:47
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: >>The include directive<< https://wiki.debian.org/sudo17:58
freemangordonhmm?17:58
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: could you compile a recent version of sudo for fremantle? (and provide it)17:58
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freemangordonthere should be, in the repos17:59
DocScrutinizer05where? can't find it17:59
freemangordonoh, wait17:59
freemangordonI was thinking about busybox17:59
freemangordon:)17:59
DocScrutinizer05meh!! :-)17:59
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: can;t do it now17:59
DocScrutinizer05it's most likely a bad idea to add it to extras-devel autobuilder, I guess?18:01
DocScrutinizer05(not like I'd be savvy how ro accomplish that, I'd rather actually install a SV VM and try locally, but really I'd rather avoid that)18:03
DocScrutinizer05SB*18:03
DocScrutinizer05I'd ruthlessly gab HARM binary and run it on fremantle, if only I could find it18:04
DocScrutinizer05but then: GARM (aka Aegis) sudo?? BWAHAHAHA18:05
DocScrutinizer05http://www.sudo.ws/dist/sudo-1.8.19p2.tar.gz would be nice18:09
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freemangordonPali: do you have a clue how 'root' user on maemo is able to access 'user' user dbus session bus?20:46
Paliyes :-)20:47
Palirun stanalone .sh20:47
Palior how it is called that script20:47
ceenerun-standalone.sh20:47
freemangordonPali: sure, but how dbus allows it?20:47
Palicommunication with dbus daemon is done via filesystem socket20:47
freemangordonyes,yes20:48
freemangordonDBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS20:48
Paliand socket file is passed to dbus app via env20:48
freemangordonyes, but that soesn't work on debian20:48
freemangordon*doesn't20:48
Paliand address for user session dbus is in some /tmp file20:48
freemangordonDBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-NHndQJLZj1,guid=52eee25672b0202e4b74c9cc587b942120:48
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freemangordonBUT...20:49
Palialso dbus-daemon has some policy file which specify who and how can access it20:49
Paliso you can filter out some users for some dbus interface20:49
freemangordonhmm, do you know which file is that20:49
Paliin /etc/ is for system dbus20:49
freemangordonyes, but what about session bus?20:50
Palido not know20:50
freemangordonaccording to google, root cannot access other user's session bus20:50
freemangordoneven if it have the socket address20:50
freemangordonit must use seteuid in order to do that20:51
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freemangordonhmm, there is some session.conf file20:54
KotCzarnyare there any download/install stats for packages on extras/-devel ?20:58
KotCzarnycrzyp3ck: use: screen /dev/ttyUSB1 115200 maybe?21:00
KotCzarnyECHAN. eh21:00
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sicelo-~repos21:19
infobotwell, repos is "deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ ;; deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/mr0/ ./", or see http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories, or see ~jrrepos21:19
sicelo-~maemo-repos21:19
infobotrumour has it, maemo-repos is http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories21:19
DocScrutinizer05~jrrepos21:34
infobotsomebody said jrrepos was http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/et_al/HAM-catalogs/21:34
* DocScrutinizer05 thinks ~repos is maximum non-helpful21:35
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sicelo-whoah! installed python-matplotlib .. expected huge amounts of rootfs to get used up .. seems to have had negligible effect. interesting21:41
KotCzarnymost likely because python optified already21:41
DocScrutinizer05it should install to the bindomount python stuff I'd guess21:41
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DocScrutinizer05ssh root@iron900 "mount|grep pymaemo"21:44
DocScrutinizer05cmd: /opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/python2.5 on /usr/lib/python2.5 type bind (bind)21:45
DocScrutinizer05cmd: /opt/pymaemo/usr/share/pyshared on /usr/share/pyshared type bind (bind)21:45
DocScrutinizer05cmd: /opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/pyshared on /usr/lib/pyshared type bind (bind)21:45
DocScrutinizer05cmd: /opt/pymaemo/usr/share/python-support on /usr/share/python-support type bind (bind)21:45
DocScrutinizer05cmd: /opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/python-support on /usr/lib/python-support type bind (bind)21:45
DocScrutinizer05special case of21:46
DocScrutinizer05~optification21:47
infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"21:47
DocScrutinizer05sicelo-: ^^^21:47
DocScrutinizer05sicel     o-:21:48
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sicelo-at least this solves one of my problems/concerns .. have something that needs matplotlib, and i had been holding back unnecessarily21:48
DocScrutinizer05ssh root@iron900 "du -sh \$(mount|grep pymaemo|sed 's/^\([^ ]*\) on .*/\1/')"21:57
DocScrutinizer05cmd: 63.4M/opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/python2.521:58
DocScrutinizer05cmd: 7.1M/opt/pymaemo/usr/share/pyshared21:58
DocScrutinizer05cmd: 2.8M/opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/pyshared21:58
DocScrutinizer05cmd: 280.0k/opt/pymaemo/usr/share/python-support21:58
DocScrutinizer05cmd: 148.0k/opt/pymaemo/usr/lib/python-support21:58
ceenei don't like optification the way it was done22:00
ceeneit should've been done at system level, without modification of .deb22:00
KotCzarnyyeah. symlinks would be mych better22:00
ceenei was thinking of unionfs22:00
DocScrutinizer05huh?22:01
ceeneunionfs allows to show a filesystem as an overlay of two different mount points22:01
DocScrutinizer05you might not be completely aware of the way optification got implemented22:02
ceenepackages need to be optified22:02
DocScrutinizer05I know what's unionfs22:02
ceenei don't want packages to be custom designed to allow or not allow for optification22:02
ceenethat should be a system setting22:02
DocScrutinizer05maemo-optify-auto-opt.sh        maemo-optify-firstboot.sh       maemo-optify-lib.sh             maemo-optify-make-mountbind.sh22:03
ceeneall of that is unnecesary if you just unionfs mount /opt with /22:04
DocScrutinizer05bindmount sounds terribly inticated and fragile22:04
DocScrutinizer05err sorry, unionfs22:04
DocScrutinizer05again, see:22:05
DocScrutinizer05~optification22:05
infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"22:05
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DocScrutinizer05Nokia failed to sanitize that stuff with PR1.222:05
enycso, is there any sensible way to fix this all // rebuild maemo system atop armhf jessie devuan or whatever ?22:06
DocScrutinizer05I thought they would do optification as a transitional botch/hotfix and fix it in PR1.2 (or was it 1.3?). Alas they kept legacy crap22:07
ceenei don't even have separate partitions on my PCs, where i have 1Tb+ hard disks22:07
DocScrutinizer05so?22:07
ceenesounds ridiculous having so many separate partitions on phones with limited storage22:08
ceenethat's also a problem on android phones22:08
DocScrutinizer05how would you make one partition of two different *types* of storage? And don't say LVM now!22:08
ceenesometimes you can't upgrade an application that would fit in available space because the partition it is to be downloaded prior to installation is full22:08
* Maxdamantus has Maemo/home all on a single 27.4 GiB partition.22:09
ceeneor you can download the installer because partition for temp files is empty but you can't install the app because app partition is full22:09
ceenewhereas it is all internal storage that doesn't make sense spliting22:09
Palithen you have wrongly partitioned system22:09
DocScrutinizer05so? this is of pretty minor relevance to maemo and N900, right?22:09
ceeneDocScrutinizer05: if you want to have MyDocs under vfat that could've been implemented as a filesystem on a file22:09
KotCzarnyimo we should simply use nand only for rescueos/bootloader/boot and move whole os to emmc22:10
ceeneno, that's exactly the same that happens on n900, where you have plenty of space but it's in the wrong partition22:10
enycKotCzarny: is there a performance penalty?22:10
KotCzarnymost of the os is on emmc anyway22:10
DocScrutinizer05ceene: again, what got that to do with optification and different types of memory?22:10
Palionce I used full Maemo on eMMC it was slower22:10
ceenethat optification shouldn't have needed to even exist22:11
Palihaving Maemo on both nand and eMMC is fater22:11
Pali*faster22:11
KotCzarnypali, how much slower?22:11
DocScrutinizer05ceene: please first read and understand what optification actually is22:11
sicelo-Maxdamantus: .. how is your user experience with your setup?22:11
PaliI remember slower bootup22:11
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Paliand whole system had more lags22:11
freemangordonKotCzarny: way slower22:11
KotCzarnyhum.22:11
freemangordonfrom sd card at least22:12
KotCzarnymaybe we need to optimize os too, to see what writes more22:12
ceeneDocScrutinizer05: from your first link: The N900 has about 100 MB of free space in the root file system partition. This is not very much and would fill up quite quickly when installing additional applications. As a workaround, the /opt directory has been linked to a different partition with more space (about 1 GB) and /home/user/MyDocs is also available in certain cases, with even more space22:12
freemangordondidn;t try from emmc22:12
ceeneain't that what i'm saying?22:12
Maxdamantussicelo-: it's still usable. My bootup is a lot slower, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that I'm using ext4 and it fscks before mounting.22:12
freemangordonthere is nothing wrong in having / on nand22:12
KotCzarnysd cards differ, try again with samsung evo+22:12
Maxdamantus(and usually when the device boots, it's because it crashed/froze)22:12
Maxdamantus(so it has to do a long check)22:13
freemangordonit would have been even better if it was read-only22:13
DocScrutinizer05no, you say optification is not needed with different partitioning, but you ignore there's physically no possibility to make one partition out of two storage chips with different type of storage22:13
ceeneoptification is a workaround needed because of a not opt-imal structure of memory22:13
ceenebut there is22:13
ceeneyou can fake that with unionfs, as i said22:13
freemangordonceene: no, it is because n900 has only 256 MB of nand22:13
MaxdamantusI also have swap on an SD card, which makes a decent difference iirc22:13
ceeneand you yourself suggested lvm22:13
freemangordonand nand is times faster than emmc22:13
ceenefreemangordon: well, of course all storage problems can be solved via more storage22:14
DocScrutinizer05ceene: please read ~optification *again*, fully, until last char22:14
freemangordonceene: and how would you do that on already assembled/shipped device?22:14
ceenei just think optification could've been done differently22:14
Palimoving core libs and binaries into /bin /sbin /lib and all non-core to /usr22:15
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: it was implemented in some of the PRs, right? 1.2?22:15
Paliand then moving whole /usr into eMMC22:15
Palithat is more unix way22:15
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: optification? iirc 1.122:15
freemangordonok22:15
Paliand probably better to performance22:15
ceenefor some reason you keep unacknowledging my idea of using unionfs to implement optification22:15
DocScrutinizer05Pali has it the right way22:15
freemangordonPali: we have maemo booting with devuan upstart :)22:15
Paliinstead hell of symlinks22:15
Paliou, nice!22:15
MaxdamantusI'd rather explicitly have the "core" things stored separately.22:16
DocScrutinizer05ceene: because pf ~optification explains that it's not needed at all, and you do NOZ need any unionfs to avoid that22:16
Palibut now in systemd world /usr and / is one thing...22:16
freemangordonPali: some stuff like ttyusb0 and couple of others still need love, but those are not critical22:16
KotCzarnylast time i brought similar idea, you folks have said nokia did bad things and essential tools for boot are on /usr too22:16
Paliudev does not boot when /usr is in separate part as /22:16
ceeneDocScrutinizer05: having a set of six .sh scripts do what a simple entry on /etc/fstab would do seems more complex than necessary22:17
PaliKotCzarny: yes... but this is now common for all linux distros22:17
DocScrutinizer05that's one of the reasons why systemd is a pile of shit for embedded22:17
Palibecause of udev..22:17
DocScrutinizer05ceene: so what?22:17
ceeneso that's all i'm saying22:18
ceeneyou may not agree, that's okay22:18
DocScrutinizer05so read ~optification a 5th time, it says exactly same22:18
ceenei don't think we're even discussing the same thing22:19
OksanaaWell, does upstart replace udev?  Can upstart handle /usr and / being in separate partitions? Could optification be changed in devuan-maemo?22:19
DocScrutinizer05~optification22:19
infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"22:19
DocScrutinizer05is what we're discussing22:19
ceeneyeah, but you're not giving any arguments in favour or against anything in particular i'm saying22:19
freemangordonOksanaa: afaik upstart and udev are different things22:19
DocScrutinizer05what in  ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC""  is unclear?22:19
ceeneso i'm even doubting this is a discussion :)22:20
PaliOksanaa: upstart is init daemon like sysvinit or sytemd22:20
Paliit does not implement dbus or other parts...22:21
ceenealso, whatever it is, it's sterile, so let's just leave it at that, what's done is done22:21
DocScrutinizer05it's hard to discuss based on false assertions/assumptions. packaged doen't need to get modified for optification22:21
OksanaaOkay... So udev is in maemo-devuan and would protest against moving /usr to MyDocs?22:21
DocScrutinizer05packages*22:21
ceenebut they do, they must be specifically optified by the maintainer and the autobuilder modifies them22:22
ceeneby the way22:22
ceenehttps://gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify/blobs/master/README22:22
ceenethis link is broken22:22
Palinot only link, but design too :-)22:22
ceenetime to have dinner, cya!22:23
OksanaaFor example: once /usr/games already points to /opt/usr/games, packages should just use /usr/games and not think about optification?22:23
Pali/usr/games should not be symlink22:24
Palias package installation fails22:24
Pali(package wants to create directory, not symlink)22:24
Palibut mount --bind is OK22:24
DocScrutinizer05there are two ways to optify: either you already move packages to /opt/*/* and add symlink from /usr/*/* to that files, or you simply add a list of files in /usr/*/* that need optification and you hand that list to the optification scripts on target system. The latter is *very* nonintrusive to packaging22:24
DocScrutinizer05in the end both methods result in symlinks from /usr/bin/foo -> /opt/foo/bin/foo22:26
DocScrutinizer05the latter path might look slightly different22:26
DocScrutinizer05I didn't check the details22:26
OksanaaOkay.... And /usr/games looks like symlink, lrwx and all, no idea why or which packages use it. Latter method allows more freedom for optification method to be changed in the future22:26
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Palibut is worse to nand wear leveling22:27
Palias it store useless files to nand22:27
DocScrutinizer05why could /usr/games be a symlink, isn't that rather a /usr/games/ dir?22:27
OksanaaYes, dir symlink?22:28
DocScrutinizer05aah well, for games it looks like OK, yes22:30
DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: so regarding your question "should just use /usr/games" yes, of course22:32
OksanaaBug report : neverputt redundantly optifies itself? /If /usr/games being a symlink is standard /22:33
DocScrutinizer05o.O22:34
* DocScrutinizer05 can't parse that, ETOOMANYSLASHES22:34
OksanaaBug report : neverputt redundantly optifies itself? ( If /usr/games being a symlink is standard )22:35
DocScrutinizer05aah thnx22:35
DocScrutinizer05cmd: lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           14 Dec  6  2014 /usr/games -> /opt/usr/games22:36
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OksanaaSame: lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           14 Oct 26  2010 games -> /opt/usr/games22:37
KotCzarnypali, if app needs its own dir in /usr i guess adding symlink in pre-install would be enough?22:42
KotCzarnyi hate mount binds being abused22:42
Palido not know if dpkg will follow that symlink22:42
Palias in deb package is directory, not symlink22:43
KotCzarnyi havent checked, but after installation of python i have deleted mount binds and replaced with symlinks, no problems so far22:45
OksanaaDo not expect any app to need its own directory in /usr ... In fact, my /usr contains only X11R6    bin      games    include  lib      libexec  local    man      sbin     share    src      var22:45
KotCzarnyoksanaa: what i meant would mean for example /usr/lib/python24/ etc22:45
OksanaaHuh... Yes, that's common. No idea about dpkg vs symlinks22:46
DocScrutinizer05how could dpkg not follow a symlink /usr/foo->/opt/foo when creating /usr/foo/bar/ ?22:50
DocScrutinizer05it hardly could create a dir /usr/foo when there's already a symlink (or dir, or file) with same name22:51
OksanaaQuestion is about dpkg creating and following new symlinks?22:51
DocScrutinizer05and I really hope it wouldn't delete that existing object to create it anew22:51
DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: no, that wasn't my question22:52
DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: my question was about dpkg using existing fs tree objects when they exist22:53
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DocScrutinizer05there are exactly two possible responses of dpkg: either success or http://paste.opensuse.org/2111811422:58
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DocScrutinizer05(well, plus the usual ones like "r/o" "no space on device" etc pp)22:59
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DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/4246289423:07
DocScrutinizer05can't see how dpkg would not handle that in a similar way, simply ignoring the errors23:09
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.opensuse.org/7332574423:11
DocScrutinizer05a bindmount actually is a great way to hide stuff in original mountpoint23:12
DocScrutinizer05and it is pretty tricky to find that stuff without umounting first23:13
DocScrutinizer05basically needs a second bindmount23:13
DocScrutinizer05iirc23:14
OksanaaLawl, know from experience of having photographs saved to MyDocs before eMMC is mounted.23:14
DocScrutinizer05hehe, exactly that, yeah23:15
DocScrutinizer05excellent "tutorial" on that stuff:  http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-mount-namespaces/index.html23:17
DocScrutinizer05the trick is about --make-unbindable --make-private --make-slave --make-shared23:19
KotCzarnykludge overload23:19
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DocScrutinizer05iirc you could mount /home/user/ to a new mountpoint with an option of the above that doesn't allow mounting of mounted namespaces23:19
DocScrutinizer05so in that new mountpoint /~user/MyDocs would show the original dir content, not the mounted one23:20
DocScrutinizer05err, /newmountpoint/MyDocs that is23:21
OksanaaOuchie...23:21
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DocScrutinizer05http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/49345/accessing-files-hidden-by-mounted-drive23:31
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DocScrutinizer05actually better: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/4426/access-to-original-contents-of-mount-point23:34
DocScrutinizer05I was wrong, you don't need those --make-* options, just use --bind and not --rbind, the latter would include the mounted eMMC stuff in ~/MyDocs while --bind doesn't23:35
Oksanaa/me just did umount or something to unmount eMMC, move files from MyDocs to elsewhere, reboot ( to have eMMC mounted ), move files to MyDocs-eMMC ; was long time ago23:36
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's the 'simple' approach if you actually can umount the mountpoint covering the stuff you want to access23:37
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DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: http://paste.opensuse.org/87851648 ;-)23:54
DocScrutinizer05uh = UnHide, if you wonder23:55
DocScrutinizer05I had used mktmp -d but it doesn't exist on maemo stock :-/23:55

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